Newbie 1495 (DAY 4) - The One where Everyone got Murdered

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hey all.

I'm going to start off with a friendly IC question:

How much mafia experience do you have?

This is my first game of Mafia. Ever.
Reserving vote until I have developed some reads.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hmm, there is certainly an interesting dynamic building between Mora and Xayzeck.

Mora, you look quite polarized at the moment. You were quick to defend yourself when votes started building on you, which is natural, and now you're asking questions, seemingly targeting a specific player, Xayzeck. To me, this looks like you're either strong town and you're looking for information to detect scum, or you're scum deflecting the attention away from yourself after an early scare of votes. I am undecided thus far, but learning towards strong town at the present time.

As such, my early vote goes for

VOTE: Xayzeck

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Is it just me, or is this a slow start? Obviously I have no prior experience but we are 3 days in and not much has happened so far. I've also noticed that we have 2 pretty inactive members in HashtagSELFIE and especially Mafia Moderator. From reading through other people's games it appears that scum lay low and don't really post, especially in new games, for fear of making a mistake; as supported by Mora with his 'liberal speech as a vanilla townie'

Therefore, I would like to retract my original UNVOTE: Xayzeck and preserve my vote until everybody has posted to give me a better idea of what's going on. Hashtag and Mafia are probably both not scum, although it is possible it's unlikely, but my gut feeling says that one of them may be and that's all I have to go on right now.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yes, it's a slow start.

I'm not sure if holding your vote until others have posted will really encourage posting. Moving your vote to apply pressure is probably the better way to go rather than let it idle.

OK, that actually makes a lot more sense. My vote is between Hashtagselfie and Mafia Moderator for previous reasons stated. I am going to edge for Hashtag because I'm not actually sure if Mafia moderator is taking part or if s/he is just lurking for now and assessing the situation. Hashtag has provided a couple of posts and I would like to see a little more from him.

VOTE: HashtagSELFIE

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I won't hide behind RVS for putting you at L-2. You had a wagon, and I jumped on for people to question me. You wanted to get out of RVS, and I wanted to get out of RVS. It's great that you picked up on it.

VOTE: Moratorium
He has a scummy picture

This is hiding behind RVS, putting you at L-1 for that matter.

I'm new, but I'm not stupid. I miscounted the votes on page one and accidentally put Mora at L-1. When he pointed that out, I retracted my vote.

Ah, hello there. I voted for you due to your inactivity. What do you think about that?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm not sure that voting for someone because of their inactivity is a good or smart approach, but since you seem to think that's a legitimate reason worth voting for, there's really noting I can personally do about it. I'm holding off my vote until I can gather more clues. Until then,

sir.

OK, so your very first post was to vote for somebody, who you had no 'clues' on, who already had 3 votes I believe. Did you not read the thread before posting?

In addition, are you interested in furthering the game? The more you, and everybody else holds back, the less information there is available.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm not sure that voting for someone because of their inactivity is a good or smart approach, but since you seem to think that's a legitimate reason worth voting for, there's really noting I can personally do about it. I'm holding off my vote until I can gather more clues. Until then,

sir.

OK, so your very first post was to vote for somebody, who you had no 'clues' on, who already had 3 votes I believe. Did you not read the thread before posting?

In addition, are you interested in furthering the game? The more you, and everybody else holds back, the less information there is available.

Like I said, I miscounted the votes when I read the thread and we were in RVS. When the game got serious, I took my vote back. Did you miss that?

Yeah well I don't see you badgering anyone else about this. I don't want to go around randomly accusing people outside of RVS. There are people who are 'holding back' even more than I am. Why aren't you pressing them?"

The game appeared to get serious very quickly then.

The two most inactive people in the thread were you and Mafia Moderator (MM). Given that MM has not even posted yet it seemed more plausible to vote for you and see if I could get a reaction/response and kick start this thread. It's nothing personal, please don't take it that way.

We are actually four full days into this now, given it started early on the 8th (UK time). We don't have a lot of conversation going on or people posting. Let's try to remedy that.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Ah! Maybe weird, not exclusively British. On other sites (not mafia) I've been on it stands for Full of Shit.
I apologise for accusing you of insulting me - I shall try harder in future to assume the best rather than jump to the wrong conclusion.

Thank you for the lesson. I can see how that would work. I will bear that in mind in future.

Put it in the dumb newbie category.

I can't pinpoint why, but I dislike everything about this post. I don't know what it is, it just reads wrong.

It comes across very apologetic in the sense of let's forget about this and not bring attention to myself or what I have wrote

I don't like it. I don't like it at all.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Ok, this is getting better.

MM comes in with his very first post after 4 days and votes no lynch. That doesn't sit right with me, no lynching is bad for the town. Combining this post with your recent inactivity and my gut is saying scum already. You also didn't feel the need to post a whole lot, this gives me the impression that you have actually been following this thread and are just sitting back and lurking.

UNVOTE: Hashtag
VOTE: Mafia Mod

Apologies about previous post re: Wolfy. I was tired and I seem to have completely misread/misinterpreted your post.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

How does an one liner voting a no lynch gives you an impression that the thread has been followed by Mafia Mod. I'm not really seeing that, but I do agree the activity is bad and we need to see more, hence, me asking to contribute more than what he has.

Because I think had he been new to the thread, with that being his first post, he may have posted some of his opinions/thoughts on what had happened so far. With him posting nothing at all, it appears that he has been reading the thread and any opinions/thoughts he has he is keeping to himself for the time being. It's just a hunch.

Any opinions on non-lurkers?

Yeah, I have a few early reads but I am unwilling to share at the moment due to lack of activity and lack of thoughts/reads posted by pretty much every person in this thread.

Would you care to start proceedings?

I should also say that thatguy2 has gone extremely quiet as well, we have 2-3 pretty inactive members and I think this should be looked at.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You might as well have said "No".

You might as well have completely ignored the question I posed to you.

You have asked two people now, myself and Mala, for reads and you're yet to provide your own. Other than your chasing of Xayzeck, I don't think you have contributed anything else.

Would you care to start proceedings?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

In addition, you asked Xayzeck and Shinobi what they learned about each other from their last game.

In total, that is four people you have asked for reads/thoughts without actually providing anything yourself. I had you polarized between strong town or scum, this makes me lean towards scum now because you appear to be gathering evidence from everybody else; possibly to decipher who is a threat to you?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Why not?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Both of you are being scummy. I want you both to sit down and actually write about what you think is happening right now.

I really,

really

don't like the fact that BBT says he's doing stuff and then gives us no information whatsoever. If you're town, you need to be as open with your reads as possible rather than sitting back and picking at each other and trying to just poke holes in arguments. Having a steady flow of contribution is exactly what town needs right now, not...Whatever this back-and-forth is supposed to be.

I could almost say the exact same thing for Moratorium right now. You're being intentionally obtuse and giving the town nothing to work with. How are we supposed to solve the game if you don't talk to us? We can't figure out your alignment if you say nothing.

Both of you are being scummy right now. If you're town, you need to stop that shit and actually keep discussion going rather than posting one-liners that ultimately accomplish nothing.

What stuff have I said I am doing?

I have probably been the most active person in this thread, questioning various people and not afraid to say if I feel something is scummy or not, even at this early stage. I'm not sure how much more open you want me to be?

The only thing I have held back is my early reads and I gave my reasons for this.

Have I not been providing a steady flow of contribution? Have I not tried to encourage various people to post to gain information?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

OK, so because I was honest, that makes me scummy? I'm not sure how you have come to that conclusion.

I gave my reasons for not wanting to post reads. I have gave an opinion/some thoughts on quite a few players, 3 or maybe 4 as a guess, which everybody has been able to read and read the responses to my posts as well.

Do you have any reads/thoughts that you would like to share on any of the players?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

If I was scum, I would lose nothing by posting reads either. That line of argument doesn't make sense.

You have a townread on me...how have you come to that conclusion may I ask?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It does. It actually matters quite a bit, and I'm going to explain why.

The traits you have been exhibiting so far (inquisitiveness, openness with information, concern with the lack of activity) are extremely pro-town traits. The issue is that, all of a sudden:

Yeah, I have a few early reads but I am unwilling to share at the moment

You clam up for no reason whatsoever. The mafia has a huge incentive to lurk right now, what with the abysmal amount of activity in the thread. Therefore, if you look active but ultimately accomplish nothing (which is entirely possible at this point, considering that you don't want to give us information) it concerns me. Looking active and accomplishing nothing is scummy, and keeping town in the dark is scum's job.

This is why I'm pressuring you so hard for reads. There's literally no reason in the world you wouldn't give them at this point, because we have next to no information to work with as it stands.

Give us your reads and stop being obtuse. This should not take an entire page to extract from you.

OK, majority of that makes sense. Except for me clamming up, I haven't clammed up, I have been honest. I'm going to provide my reads, I have a horrible feeling this will backfire hence my hesitation in posting.

Spoiler: Town

Mala - Town - Gut feeling

Shinobi - I was undecided until a few posts ago. Leaning towards town

Wolfy - Leaning towards town. Gut feeling.

Spoiler: Scum

Mafia Mod - Leaning towards scum. This is a gut feeling only, due to inactivity and proposal of a no lynch

Mora - This one is confusing me. I have changed my mind several times already, currently leaning towards scum because of persistence of pressuring one person (Xayzeck) and the lack of information he is presenting in his posts.

Spoiler: Undecided

HashtagSelfie - Undecided - not enough information

Thatguy62 - Undecided - Not enough information

Xayzeck - Undecided. Most of his posts have been defensive, due to early attacks, so it's hard to get an early read.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Alright, now we're getting somewhere.

What exactly made you think I was town? You say a couple posts back, but I want to know which ones made you think I was town and what your reasoning is behind that.

Is there anything behind "gut-feeling" reads? Did you like a specific post they made or the way they approached the game? Or did you just kinda wing it and guess that they were town?

(Though your read on MM is a little...odd. You say it's a gut read and then provide reasoning as to why he's scummy [which he is], which is the exact opposite of a gut read. Lol.)

I think you're town based on a couple of things. I feel like you were pressuring me because you genuinely wanted some information and you seem just as determined as I am to get this thread moving and start getting some information.

I can't really explain gut feelings, it's just a first impression I got from each person.

Sometimes I don't word things properly re: MM. It should really have read my initial gut instinct on MM was scummy due to his inactivity, then after his first post this furthered my thoughts that he was scummy. I hope that makes a little more sense.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

BBT, it's similar to Wolfy, it isn't the "I'm going to concentrate on all Lurkers in this game so it looks like I'm scumhunting" thing, or the point Shinobi made about you being a tease with your reads... it's a particular post that I don't like, where you declare that you "have probably been the most active person in this thread", which feels like a strange attempt to clear yourself and push the Lynch all Lurkers Strawman's Guide to Mafia.

Can you provide me with some evidence where I have stated that I would like to lynch all lurkers?

That is exactly the opposite of what I want to do. I want the lurkers to be pressured into posting, providing some information so that we can pick up reads. If we just lynch lurkers, we could be lynching a town power-role without even knowing it.

Inactivity certainly doesn't help the town, but lynching somebody because they're inactive doesn't really make much sense either when we have no idea what role they could hold.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Shinobi, what's your read on Mora?

Do you have any reads/thoughts that you would like to share? You've been a little quiet only really posting to defend yourself.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I've got townreads on most of the people here. Weakest townread would be Mala, nullscum would be Selfie and Mafia

Why is Mala your weakest townread? What does nullscum mean?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Because everyone else has towntold more than she has?

Nullscum means somewhere between a null read and a scum read.

Hmm, OK.

Reasons for leaning towards scum for Selfie and Mafia? Would you be happy if one of those two got lynched? Do you think we should lynch lurkers or leave them be for the time being?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

A newbie game where three of the newbies are not contributing is a game that needs prods and replacements, not lynches.

I read it as either strong newbie paralysis syndrome, or lack of interest (newbies often don't realize how long-winded forum games tend to be, and aren't prepared for the participation level required or the length of deadlines).

They can't all three be scum.

So, what, you think we should just let them skate by? Don't you think we should pressure them with votes?

Just replace them. Analyzing replacements is often lucrative.

Prods and replacements make sense. If this is going to be done, it needs to be done ASAP because we need time for the new players to come in and post.

I'm very much undecided what to do with lurkers. On one hand, it seems silly to allow people who are not contributing/playing the game to quietly advance their way to mid/end game with the more active players being lynched along the way, this is just bad for the game. The inactivity levels would surely only increase; making the game even harder to play. Along with this, if even one of the lurkers is scum, this is further bad news for the town.

On the other hand, to lynch someone who we have no information on doesn't make much sense and if it turns out they are a power-role and they have to claim it to save themselves from being lynched, town are again at a huge disadvantage.

Mora, you accused me of seeking out to lynch lurkers and I asked you to provide some evidence for this claim. You either missed my question, or completely ignored it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Mora, you accused me of seeking out to lynch lurkers and I asked you to provide some evidence for this claim. You either missed my question, or completely ignored it.

It's all you talk about.

There is a quote button you can use to back up this claim. Provide me with some evidence.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I have no desire to provide you with evidence that all you talk about is lurkers. I will leave it up to the remaining players to decide whether my refusal to submit to your demands therefore somehow correlates to you not constantly bringing up lurkers.

That's because you just made your first mistake. You have now changed from I want to "lynch lurkers" to "It's all I talk about". They are two very different things.

My scum read on you is starting to get stronger.

UNVOTE: Mafia Mod
VOTE: Mora

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Here's some more fuel for your fire.

Maybe~~~.... Hang on, I know this gonna be complex.... Maaaaaybe.... It's all you talk about because it's what you want to do.

I have not spoke about lynching lurkers, you have fabricated the link between talking about lurkers and lynching lurkers from thin air with no evidence to back up your claim.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Firstly, I have no idea what PbPA FMPOV means.

They are some very good quotes regarding me talking about lurkers (which I have not denied)

I had an issue with you claiming I was looking to 'lynch', not talk about, 'lynch' lurkers. Not one of your quotes backs up your claim.

Re post 82 - you have taken that out of context. Of course it's the theme of the game, but I felt like I was the only one doing it.

Similarly, post 86 I felt the need to point out that I was putting a lot of effort in to progress the game, not for the purpose of 'look at me, look how much I am trying to push the game forward, I can't be scum' but more towards 'hey, I'm putting a lot of effort in here, can somebody help me.

Again, do you propose we ignore lurkers? Oh no wait, you proposed we get replacements. That would certainly be an advantage for scum with the town having to wait and then investigate completely new players when we are approaching the half-way point.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Does anyone want to provide some reads/ thoughts on EVERY player in our game so far? Even if you have no reads for a number of people, just say no reads as of yet.

Give us something to work with.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I do have a couple of questions for the IC or whoever else can answer them.

What does it mean when someone gets 'hammered'? I keep seeing this phrase in other threads and I'm not sure I understand it fully. How does it happen, what does it do and what happens afterwards?

Also, are all games on this site 2 weeks per day, and 2 days per night?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

When someone gets lynched, do we immediately move to night or is there an opportunity for discussion afterwards? Does the day still last 2 weeks?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Ok – for what little it’s worth…

Leaning town

BlueBloodedToffee

– it looks, from my very limited experience, like active scum hunting from a newbie. If he was an experienced player I might not be reading it so strong.

Moratorium

– looks like active scum hunting. Putting pressure on people (Xayzeck, BBT) and getting reactions. He is an experienced player though so he could just be fooling a dumbass like me… that’s why it’s only leaning.

Shinobi

– looks like active scum hunting to me. Lots of pro town questioning and trying to get people working together.

No read

HashtagSELFIE

thatguy2

Leaning scum

Malakittens

– Nothing specifically scummy – just not enough pro town activity. I expect (and have seen in games read through) much more pro town activity from the IC when they are town. Need to find some time to look through some of Mala’s games.

Xayzeck

– was very active defending himself when Mora was pushing. Not a lot of other pro-town activity. Nothing definite – this is mostly a gut feel.

Mafia Moderator

– gut feel. He doesn’t post anything useful to town.

Not sure I've added any real value here but it's probably a worthwhile exercise for everybody to go through.

This is good. It gives us another perspective and some more information to work with.

You are leaning towards scum for Mala. My initial read, albeit it was a gut feeling, was that she was town. However, I'm not so sure now. She isn't very active and weirdly defended my gut read of her when Shinobi asked if I could explain it. This was after being suspicious herself of somebody else who defended her. I want to say something else here as well but I'm not sure if it's a rule-break or not, I have PM'd a mod for clarification and if I'm allowed to post it I will.

I'm also in agreement with your read on Shinobi, he seems to be the most obvious townie so far. Would be very interested to read his thoughts/reads so far.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Forgot to address second post. Does this mean that a day does not have to last the full 2/3 weeks?

Also, if somebody gets lynched, they would be lynched because the mod has counted the votes. When somebody gets hammered, we don't learn their alignment until the mod posts right? When the mod does post, he will have counted the votes to carry out the lynch? I don't fully understand how we get to discuss afterwards if the thread gets closed.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Wow, I mean, what just happened.

That is such a weird claim. Why did you feel the need to do it? The first thing I would like to say is if he is lying and he isn't a cop, but we do have one, please don't counter-claim. I had you down as town after your simple post "I'm not mafia", but that could be a really weird scum move?

I genuinely don't know what to make of that

[BlueBloodedToffee]

UNVOTE:

Taking the claim at face value without evidence to the contrary.

More reading and thinking to do...

It's going to be difficult to disprove his claim, I still can't quite believe it. I really want to see his reasoning behind that claim.

If we don't have a doctor, he is as good as dead. If we do have a doctor, it makes an easy kill for the scum because it's obvious what the doctor has to do.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

UNVOTE:

Taking the claim at face value without evidence to the contrary.

More reading and thinking to do...

It's going to be difficult to disprove his claim, I still can't quite believe it. I really want to see his reasoning behind that claim.

If we don't have a doctor, he is as good as dead. If we do have a doctor, it makes an easy kill for the scum because it's obvious what the doctor has to do.

Your certainty that those are the only two options bothers me.

I'm sorry, have I missed something? Does Wolfy's agreement with me not bother you?

You're really gunning for me; like a dog with a bone. Tunnel vision.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

My bad, posted that before I saw your second reply.

Nice save.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

If he is lying it's a pretty bold move, especially for a newbie, because if we do have a cop, then at least one person knows he is lying. If he has got lucky and we don't have a cop in this set-up, he has secured himself a place in D2.

In saying that, I find it very difficult to believe he is lying. As much as the claim does not make sense (because he was hardly under pressure), it makes even less sense for him to lie. This puts town in a very awkward position, hence my post in reply to Wolfy. I spoke about a doctor because MM brought it to my attention by asking the doc to save him because of his role. So the only scenarios I considered were with doctor and without doctor, perhaps I was wrong to do so, I don't know.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

What does CC mean?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't see why somebody would CC? That seems like a really bad move in itself, it just gives scum the same information and doesn't really accomplish much in my opinion. The cop would already know that MM is lying and would not need to reveal themselves.

Again though, I doubt he is lying. His posts have been short and sweet, and come across as somewhat honest for one reason or another. As soon as he posted "I'm not Mafia", it was obvious he was town.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

As soon as he posted "I'm not Mafia", it was obvious he was town.

are you serious?

Yeah, that's the feeling I got from it. It was just too short and to the point to be anything else. I could well be wrong, but that's my gut feeling right now.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Mora, you're a funny guy. Mora has to be town because he just said he's not mafia...

Look, MM is a newbie. I applied a little pressure, voting him and saying he was coming across as scummy, and all he replied with was I'm not mafia. I believe, and this is only my humble opinion, that if he was actually scum he would have responded with a more in-depth post defending himself a little more.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You two are scum, aren't you?

I'm not sure what you're expecting from that?

Yes, I am?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

That's a hard question to answer. By posting some of my thoughts, this can only help scum surely? If we give them a story to follow, it's pretty easy for them to set somebody up for a D2 lynch, in my opinion.

However, I expect due to our activity levels alone and the ease with which the game can play out with more active members being killed, that either you or I will be killed. Less likely to be you based on my read so far though.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yeah, Shinobi is active but not quite as active as we are. In saying that, my point was mostly about the two of us questioning/putting pressure on different players in the game. I just realized that you haven't actually been scumhunting all that much. You focused on Xayzeck in the beginning and now myself during the middle stages, and that's about it.

However, for arguments sake, let's say you, Shinobi and myself were the first 3 players to get lynched/killed. The game seems pretty easy for scum right?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Less likely to be you based on my read so far though.

does that mean you're scumreading him?

Yes. I openly stated in my reads when I posted them that I was leaning towards scum. I had a very hard time reading him in the beginning but for reasons stated in my read, I am leaning towards scum right now. Nothing has happened in the past few days to change my mind.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

In addition, after I gave a scum-read on him, he proceeded to say he had a scum-read on myself because I pointed out that "I was probably the most active player in this game". Since that reasoning, he hasn't let go.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

In addition, after I gave a scum-read on him, he proceeded to say he had a scum-read on myself because I pointed out that "I was probably the most active player in this game". Since that reasoning, he hasn't let go.

Wasn't this me?

Shinobi has been fence-sitting for a while.

Wasn't what you? I don't understand

[BlueBloodedToffee]

In addition, after I gave a scum-read on him, he proceeded to say he had a scum-read on myself because I pointed out that "I was probably the most active player in this game". Since that reasoning, he hasn't let go.

Is post 190 a description of Shinobi?

No, I'll clear this up. I meant after I gave a scum-read on you (Mora), you (Mora) proceeded to give myself a scum-read a few posts later with the reason being because I pointed out that I had probably been the most active player, this makes me scummy. Since then, you have not given up on me, from what was a pretty weak read in the first place.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Updated Reads;

Spoiler: Town

MM - Since his post stating he isn't mafia, with reasons I have previously stated, plus the fact he has now claimed cop and I don't believe he is lying this is an obvious townie for me

Shinobi - Another clear townie. Pressuring people, asking questions, just saying and doing all the right things. Would like to see some reads/thoughts on the game so far.

Wolfy - With his recent exchange with Xayzeck, I believe Wolfy is town. Whilst this is his first real pro-town act, it's enough to have me leaning town for now.

Spoiler: Scum

Mala - My initial read was town, but that was based on gut feeling. Due to her inactivity levels and not much pro-town action, I am leaning towards scum

Mora - Feelings of scum are getting stronger and stronger. Whilst it may look like he is actively scumhunting, what he actually appears to be doing is focusing in on one person and trying to prove that they are scum. I don't like this tactic, it's almost like there are no other people in the game. Looks scummy to me, sticking with this read for now.

Xayzeck - Leaning towards scum. Not much pro-town activity and a lot of his posts don't really have any real content to further the game. Most of his posts are pointless/lacking direction

Spoiler: No Read

HashtagSELFIE - What I will say is I have noticed his name on the list of names at the bottom of the main forum page on numerous occasions, he is most definitely checking this thread out but not providing his opinions/thoughts. Whilst this looks scummy, I am still undecided for now.

thatguy2 - not enough posting. Would like to see more

[BlueBloodedToffee]

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... em_Lynched

This is the school I subscribe to, though I admit to being nowhere near as effective as I've seen Albert B. Rampage be with scumhunting in the past.

That is a really good article and would be an excellent choice of article to follow if you were scum. Do you need a step-by-step guide on how to play the game? That looks mighty suspicious to me. It does however explain your style of play.

Excellent article.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

These two posts are

almost

exactly the same in reads, anyone want to guess why?

~

Also, we should stop the whole setup discussion. We can either have a doc or a BP. Most likely the latter as, the doc setup is more rarely seen than the BP, but both have equal chances of appearing.

If we had a cop; there would be a CC from at least the active players. The only two who could still be a cop would be Selfie or ThatGuy2.

~

Also, the more I read BBT and Wolfy's ISO's back to back the more I see similar posts by them. Ugh, makes me believe there's a chance one is scum, but I need more time to figure out which.

What's a BP and what does IOS mean?

Can you explain your last sentence. If mine and Wolfy's posts are similar, why are we both not scum? Why only one?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

@Mala - Unless I am reading that table wrong, how is it possible to have a BP if we have a cop?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It's not even anything to do with being an IC for me to want to CC.

A CC means confsscum Day 1 lynch which helps because the numbers are pretty good and you have a few extra chances for mislynches, in case you need them, down the road. You can gleam reactions from the CC to use interactions to catch the second scum. It also forces the second scum to take a certain path: 1) bus 2) ignore or 3) try to lynch the actual cop.

Also:

To the part two (really only applies to newbie games or open setups), but depending on how the nightkill goes the town has just as much information as the other scum based on the setup.

Do you believe MM's claim?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Considerin' there has been no CC, yes.

Also why didn't you answer my previous question?

Hmm, OK.

I must have missed your question?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Also, Wolfy, did JS ever replied to you in regards to me?

JacobSavage.

Also, nevermind, that wasn't you. It was BBT.

Am gonna go ahead and assume this was it?

It doesn't matter, it was a rule-break so I couldn't say what I wanted.

Also, to avoid confusion for mod, I PM'ed a separate mod (Zaicon) of a second game I am waiting to start because Jacob said he was away for weekend.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

@Mala - You still haven't provided any reads either. Care to contribute?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

@Mala - You still haven't provided any reads either. Care to contribute?

I explained that w/o the two other players it's making it harder to read them.

I'm getting a vibe that at least one of {BBT and Wolfy} are scum. Leaning towards former than latter.

Also I'm still liking Xayz for scum~

Poor reasoning.

That's 2, maybe 3 actually as Hashtag, Thatguy and MM are all inactivce, out of 9. That means there are still 5 people for you to provide reads on and provide some more information for town to work with.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Mod: Do we have prods out for the inactives?

This.

Hashtag, thatguy and MM have a combined total of 13 posts, three of these were thatguy trying to get his vote correct, and I believe we're in our 8th day now? Quite frankly, that is a pathetic contribution and even if the other two are town, they're of no help to us whatsoever. Scum will never kill them because they pose no threat whatsoever, in addition, the longer they stay in the game the harder it becomes for town.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Xayzeck, what's your view of Shinobi?

Town, every since the exchange with BBT

What about his exchange with me made you think he was town?

There is very little detail, direction or analysis in most, if not all, of your posts. A lack of scumhunting as well in my opinion.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Coaching and townvibes

I think you guys are asking for details for my reads which I cannot provide. I don't do huge long wall posts going through every line saying why I think someone is town or scum. The way Shinobi interacted with you felt more town motivated than scum motivated, therefore I read him as town. For example, asking you to post reads. Given low content, and his persistence in pulling reads out of you instead of letting you conceal them and leave the town empty, has town motivation it.

You should be able to see these things too.

I can see those things, for those reasons stated in my last updated read; Shinobi is town. That is probably your first real contribution to this thread...and it's taken 11 pages. You don't need to do huge wall of text posts, but you do need to be posting providing thoughts, asking questions, actively seeking for information; if you're town.

The one thing you do have in your favour for me, is when you're online you seem to reply quickly, almost care-free. This makes me think that you're town and you're not thinking too hard/too long about constructing your posts and being careful about what you're saying.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Do you have any reads/thoughts on other players in the game MM?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Reply to #255. The quote won't work.

All the actives seem townies, I don't have good reads.

Can you give some descriptions on any players as to why you think they are townies? What specifically tells you they are town?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I have reads. It's just not listed and I not fully explaining them.

Hmm, you have reads but you're not willing to fully explain them? How does that help town exactly?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Mala - My initial read was town, but that was based on gut feeling. Due to her inactivity levels and not much pro-town action, I am leaning towards scum

These two posts are

almost

exactly the same in reads, anyone want to guess why?



Also, the more I read BBT and Wolfy's ISO's back to back the more I see similar posts by them. Ugh, makes me believe there's a chance one is scum, but I need more time to figure out which.

Either he's scum parroting you or you could be scum. A majority of your posts are similar in terms of content. You started talking about twilight, he started talking about twilight. You worded that there wasn't enough protown activity from me; he worded it the same.

Also, Wolfy, did JS ever replied to you in regards to me?

JacobSavage.

Also, nevermind, that wasn't you. It was BBT.

Also, I'm focusing on why BBT and Wolfy's reads are almost the same. As for BBT/Mora, I'm getting a huge experienced scum player coaching ingame an inexperienced scum player vibe, but considering it's a newbie this game shouldn't be applied as heavily as other queue games.

I explained that w/o the two other players it's making it harder to read them.

I'm getting a vibe that at least one of {BBT and Wolfy} are scum. Leaning towards former than latter.

Also I'm still liking Xayz for scum~

They are mostly gut vibes which can't be fully explained at this point. I mean if you have been reading any of my posts which have some decent points as to why I'm feeling that way you would understand better. I just can't fully explain it perfectly

You can't explain it because your reads are all over the place. You're either not paying much attention, or you don't care much how you're coming across.

Since I said I was leaning scum on you, you have been trying to scum-read me. I'm gonna go ahead and assume that you're reading my posts having already decided I am scum and looking for scum tells.

First, you say that me and Wolfy are providing the same reads. That's fair enough, they were similar, but there was also noticeable differences. You follow this by saying the more you see our ISO's back to back, the more similar posts you can see. Can you provide some evidence for this?

The post about the twilight talk is absurd. I don't believe for one second you believe that's good enough to use as a scum-read.

You then moved onto the fact I had messaged a mod asking about a rule-break. So you know I am watching you, does that worry you?

You then moved on to state that me and Mora were working together as well, experienced and inexperienced scum. Can you provide some evidence to support this claim?

So, so far, you've claimed you're getting 'gut vibes' that two inexperienced scum are working together and then you claimed that an experienced scum and an inexperienced scum are working together. Have you made your mind up as to which one you have chose? Can you provide some evidence to support your thinking?

Going off gut vibes when we have 11 pages comes across as lazy. As stated earlier, you're either not paying attention to what is going on, which is feasible given your activity levels and pro-town activities so far, or you don't care how you're coming across. At this point, you should at least have developed reads on Mora, Xayzeck, Wolfy, Shinobi and myself. At the very least.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Scum:

BBT: Previous stated similar reads between Wolfy & BBT. Most likely inexperienced scum between the two trying to blend in. 92 seems more like freaked out scum being questioned.

Also the asking for updated reads every few pages bothers me. Really overeagerness, imo, because sometimes reads doesn't change so fast.

Also the change on reads felt scummy to me and feels like he was going with the majority rather than actually believing in his own reads so to say. Also, his whole argument that I was defending him over a gut read is a lie. Xayz's comment is more complex as this is our first/second* game together so when he came up with his defense to say that I always have a slow start alarmed me which is different than what defense BBT brought up in 134.

Wolfy's reads in 133 look similar to his reads post in 210.

Getting the newscum sheeping newtown vibes.

In my opinion I feel that a flip of either alignment would shed light to me on Wolfy/BBT. Not sure how to explain it, but interactions between them bother me.

OK, now we're getting somewhere.

Your point about asking for updated reads is way off and is actually a flat out lie. I have been asking EVERYBODY to provide reads/thoughts/contribute to the thread. I haven't been asking for updated reads from the same people, I have been trying to get everyone to provide some information for town to work with. Every time somebody posted who hadn't been very active/provided much content, I tried questioning/pressuring them into providing us with some information. Again, if you can provide evidence to the contrary of what I have said, please do so.

I changed my reads to go with the 'majority'? How many people had posted their reads to that point? 1? Maybe 2? Can you explain how that is the majority?

You reek of desperation here, you're clutching at straws at best to try and support your vote for me. I am growing confident in my scum-read on you.

I'm gonna state here at this point that I'm putting BBT back into the null camp, goodposting lately.

I don't like this. You applied pressure/questioned me, I pushed back, and you've backed off. I wouldn't expect you to do this as town, especially if you only have a null read on me, if you had a town-read, I could believe you would back off as town. With a null read, I still think you're scum.

My problem now is, I don't believe both Mala and Mora are scum. I mean it's possible, there certainly hasn't been much interaction between the two players. When one of their alignments flip, this will provide a lot of information I feel.

UNVOTE: Mora

VOTE: Malakittens

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Vote Count Analysis

- Post # in left column, each column shows who a particular person is voting for when a voting post is made.
- Format stolen from someone whose name i forget on these forums a long time ago
- Provided with 2 points of Analysis:

Mod: Prod Shinobi please sir.

Have you created that particular graph yourself?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Indeed.

Why are you messing with my head? I haven't been able to figure you out from the first post.

My problem is this; you come across as a good player. If you're scum, I believe you are very dangerous. However, if you're town, I feel you are going to be invaluable in winning this game.

You sir, have me confuddled.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'll be nightkilled first night.

That's a bold, and somewhat strange statement to make. Elaborate?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'll be nightkilled first night.

Hmm, OK. There is something behind this statement. I don't know what yet, but I'll figure it out.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

However, if you're town, I feel you are going to be invaluable in winning this game.

Because of statements like this one.

That is only my opinion. I have problems reading you, other people may not. The fact that you're not an obvious townie should actually keep you alive longer because why would scum kill somebody who players are having difficulty reading? It keeps one more suspect on the list and narrows the chance of scum getting lynched.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I really don't get why we're not voting out Xayzeck, he votes and L-2's a guy, which was exactly the opposite play to a just-finished game as town where he calls out and votes for the guy who L-2's. That seems pretty cut and dried.

We've got a bunch of unconsolidated opinion, unconvincing arguments, lurking players, and constant vote-switching. Pretty sweet setup for scum at this point.

You believe Xayzeck was looking for a quick hammer?

I'm not sure. For a SE player, that seems one of the dumbest, and most obvious, scum moves.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I've been around, I've just been lurking and not posting much because I just don't see what I can add at this point.

All I want to say is that I'm incredibly unwilling to lynch BBT. I still think he's one of the townier players in the thread, so if we had to lynch between Wolfy and BBT, I'd pick Wolfy.

I'm not overly happy with your post given how inactive you have been lately. I was expecting you to add a little more than that. Have you developed reads on other players?

We don't have to lynch between Wolfy and BBT, Mr. False Dilemma.

Is Xayzeck Voldamort in your world? Are you not permitted to speak of him?

This post actually made me lol. Well done.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Also, I just wanted to make sure that that was all you said/wanted to say about BBT. I'm a little busy right now, but I want to take a look at what you said and say some things because a lot of what you were saying about him bugged me. I'll post my thoughts on your case later.

Can you continue with this please. I was, and still am, awaiting your thoughts.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

2) BBT overuses the word "evidence" (fun exercise: Iso BBT, search for "evidence"), which is the point of your last quote of mine. It's a game of inferences and implications, true scumslips are a lot rarer than most people seem to think. So my comment is regarding how demands for "evidence" is a scummy ploy because it is often difficult to translate "This doesn't look right" into "This doesn't look right because of X".

If somebody accuses/asks/infers/thinks something about me, they can only gain that information from my posts. Therefore, they should be able to provide said posts, as evidence, to back-up what they are saying. I don't think that's a very difficult thing to do. If you have no evidence for what you are claiming, then don't say it.

For example, she accused me and Wolfy of posting similar posts/reads and that one of us was sheeping. When in actual fact, there is no evidence to support this claim whatsoever, backed up by your VCA graph (evidence). If she cannot provide some sort of evidence for her accusations, she should keep them to herself until she can.

It should also be noted that opinions are very different from accusations/claims. I'm sure I didn't need to tell you that.

I tried to get the word evidence into this post as much as possible by the way.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

If you have no evidence for what you are claiming, then don't say it.

I don't agree. That sentence, in the context of this game where half the players are playing on "gut", would result in the top poster being JacobSavage.

I'm not talking about gut feelings, I should have clarified that as well.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

That's right; my reads are all over the place. Why because they aren't solid since my Day 1 reads are usually never solid unless I have flips to analyze.
Also, you are right, I don't really care how I come across.

I haven't decided you are scum. I think there's a possibility you are scum, so yes, I'm looking at your posts more carefully because I do believe you are scum, but no it's not set in stone.

It's the timing of him giving his reads list and then your timing of changing your reads which make it similar to his. Yes, there's differences, but there's overlapping sheeping reads that reeks of oppurnitism.

I'm not using it as a main reason to scum read you, but your reply makes me think scum caught for all the wrong reasons.

No, you following my other games doesn't bother me a bit, but you aren't taking into consideration that I don't play the same way game to game. I play similarly, but there's noteable differences depending on the player list and how I think of how I have to play the *certain* role I get and what status I am. All of those things factor into my games.

It's just him giving you the article about scum-hunting halfway through the day phrase that bothered me or why you asked then, but not when you replaced in. It's the timing, it felt awkward and pure coaching.

No, I haven't made up my mind because it's still really in gut stage. I'm trying to figure out which is the stronger of the two. I just feel you are scummy, but also that your flip would be informative also.

I don't care; I don't have a strong day 1 unless SE's are those whom I have accuracy in reading. If I can narrow the suspects from 8 to 6/5*, depending on how many SE's are playing and/or how I read them I can get a better feel for the newbies. I have zero experience with the SE's and I have no experience with the newbies. So this game is a lot harder. I can't use my normal scum hunting tools because newbies do not have established meta, Xayz is really new to the game even though he's an SE, Mora has just came back from a leave of absence so his meta is outdated. I have other personal scum hunting tools which don't really apply to newbies well because you guys are still too new and commit them like every other post.

You should care how you come across. If you come across as a weak-town, and your lazy and you don't contribute, you could cause a mislynch.

Also, you talk about the timing on Wolfy's reads and then my updated reads. My reads come almost 80 posts after Wolfy's reads and if you look at what happened during the time between the reads, there was a lot going on and I thought it would be a good time to provide some updated reads. Also, Mora's VCA shows that Wolfy and myself have been all over the place, so I'm really not sure where you're going with this.

I wasn't even going to mention your play style in other games. Obviously every game is different, it was a different subject entirely.

You make it sound like Mora gave me that article personally. He posted it in the thread, for everybody to see.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Re-reading the thread, something weird happened here.

Care to contribute your thoughts on the matter? What do you feel happened? Why was it weird?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

it is often difficult to translate "This doesn't look right" into "This doesn't look right because of X".

- Why did Mala say BP was possible with a un'CC'd claimed Cop, which is clearly wrong?
- Why did Shinobi say you read the table incorrectly, which is clearly wrong?
- Why did you accept what Shinobi/Malakittens said at face value and move on?

I feel like someone scumslipped here. Just not sure who. It reads like "Don't Talk About Fight Club" all of a sudden, when the question being posed was clearly valid.

I assumed I had read the table wrong as two people, who are far more experienced than myself, were essentially saying I was wrong. I also assumed that somebody would correct them, if it was indeed myself who was correct.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Do you believe MM's claim?

Considerin' there has been no CC, yes.

I'm not so sure either.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

And you felt it unnecessary to get this clarified? The core game functionality was something you felt ok glossing over, but every time someone spits out an acronym you want to know what it is?

It was clarified, by two people. Mala posted, I asked if I was reading table incorrectly and then Shinobi posted confirming I had read the table incorrectly. The posts were there for everyone to see, if Shinobi/Mala was wrong, I expected someone would call them out on it, like they did with me. But nobody did.

Why would I question that?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Because I thought I had figured it out for myself. In the beginning, I assumed that the table was read horizontally and vertically, when I got corrected I naturally assumed the table can be read diagonally as there was no other explanation for two people saying I was wrong.

It's also pretty embarrassing to ask how to read a table like that, but thanks for pointing that out.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It's also pretty embarrassing to ask how to read a table like that, but thanks for pointing that out.

You're welcome.

Game Specific Rules
This game uses the semi-open setup Matrix6. One row or coloum is selected from the following table:

So, so far, I've got one guy saying "I was thinking of the wrong setup", and the other with "I didn't read the rules in my 'First Game of Mafia. Ever.'".

Shinobi, what's your excuse? Mind you, the bar has been set exceptionally low.

-----------------------

The sad fact is my vote's not even on any of you three. Someone please start saying townie things.

OK, let's put the shoe on the other foot now. I was the one who originally questioned Mala's statement, nobody else. Why do you think I got corrected?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Come on, guys. Somebody needs to step up and start acting townie or I'm gonna have to put all your names on a dart board.

We need to start consolidating votes here. Deadline approaches. Replacements aren't forthcoming... hell the mod is prod-worthy at the moment.

I agree with this. We have 4 or 5 days left now and we're not really close to any sort of decision. Let's try to consolidate some votes and see what we can get going.

I am happy to lynch Hashtag, Mala or thatguy2. I really don't think inactives floating their way through the game is very helpful for town at all, it's also unlikely that scum will kill them because they are of no threat.

If we don't want to lynch a lurker, then my active player vote goes for Mala for all previous reasons stated. Add in her quite obvious lie regarding the set-up and I'm happy with this lynch.

Also, I'm not so sure what makes you more townie than anybody else Mora...

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yep, tbh i rather lynch myself than lynch a lurker who can't claim at L-1. Lynching lurker really isn't the way to go on Day 1

Here is how I am looking at it now. We have 3 fairly inactive players, and 6 active. Now, let's say an active got lynched today and an active got killed in the night. That leaves 3 inactive players and 4 active. With only 4 active players, and with two of those players possibly being scum, the game becomes very difficult for town and I don't really want to be in this position. If we lynch a lurker and he turns out to be scum, yay, well done us. If he doesn't, he wasn't very useful to town in the first place, unless we're unlucky enough to lynch a power-role obviously; providing we even have another power role in this set-up. What I'm trying to say is, I would much rather lynch a weak-town inactive player, than mistakenly lynch a strong-town active player. At least after N1 we have a lot more information to work with.

If nobody wants to lynch a lurker, I'm fine with that. But we need to start making tracks, and we need to start doing it soon.

I'm not sure what to make of your self-lynch proposal. That would take some balls as scum given our current position in the game.

Take a step back for a minute.

Let's assume that Mala lied about the setup. (I'm not even sure if this is true, but it's irrelevant either way. I really don't feel like filter diving right now.) If Mala lied about the setup,

and

she was mafia, what exactly would that accomplish? Furthermore, if she were town, why would she lie about the setup in the first place?

That isn't my only reason for voting Mala,, I did provide other reasons for why I was leaning scum on her earlier in thread.

As for the set-up thing, I really don't know. I mean, it could create a really good distraction for town and waste a couple more days or whatever talking about something that just isn't worth wasting our time on at this point in the game. I also don't believe for one second that an IC 'got mixed up' with the set-ups. I know all the set-ups myself now without even looking at the table.

Tbh, I'm more interested in why you specifically said "You're reading the table incorrectly", why would you say that? What were your reasons for it?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Mora and Shinobi, do either of you have anything to say regarding post #354. I didn't just write that for the good of my health, we need direction and need to start making some decisions because we have under 4 days left. I post a full 2 paragraphs worth of thoughts/information and the first 2 replies in the thread are 1 line and 2 lines respectively, and nothing to do with what I posted! Which, in case you hadn't realized, is becoming quite a pressing matter.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Mod: tuby28 is no longer in this game.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

My Reads - not very accurate probably.

Shinobi MT
Wolfy CT
HashtagSELFIE NR
BlueBloodedToffee : VLT
thatguy2 NR
Xayzeck MS
Moratorium MT
Malakittens SS

CoT = Confirmed town
XLT = Extremely Likely town
VLT = very likely town
LT = likely town
CT = Convincingly town
MT = Mabye Town
MS = Mabye Scum
SS = Slightly Scum
CS = Convincingly scum
LS/VLS = (very) likely scum
DS = Definite scum.
NR = No read

I don't give CoT's unless that player is truly confirmed, not acting very like town (XLT/VLT/CT).

Can you provide some thoughts/reasoning behind why you think what you think?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Fuck it, I don't want to wait anymore. Here's my case on Wolfy:

The idea of looking between BBT and Wolfy came to me when Mala started saying stuff like she did in #214. Wolfy and BBT both have similar reads, whereas BBT has thrusted himself into the spotlight and has tried to solve the game on his own. Mala actually went and posted this:

BBT: Previous stated similar reads between Wolfy & BBT. Most likely inexperienced scum between the two trying to blend in. 92 seems more like freaked out scum being questioned.

I beg to differ.

Wolfy

is clearly the player we should be looking to vote off today. I think it's relatively clear that we have no need to vote off BBT today, as he has displayed a prominent number of town qualities such as real contribution, a lack of hesitation, and a sense of openness about all of his posts.

In contrast, almost every single one of Wolfy's posts are geared almost exclusively towards fitting in. I'd actually provide quotes, but a brief glance through his ISO shows a hugely consistent tone throughout his posts this game that anyone with eyes could see. (For the sake of simplicity, posts 8, 36,

60

,

62

, and 236 are the targets of interest.) His entire filter seems geared towards fitting in and painting himself as a noob. Think about this idea from a town perspective. Why would you want to point out that you're a newbie in almost all of your posts? If anything, this will get you ignored by the other players and your cases/ideas won't have any impact.

But from a mafia perspective, his filter makes that much more sense. Wolfy wasn't even particularly suspicious at the beginning of the day, but by making himself out as a "noob," he is, in practice, trying to make himself appear

less

suspicious. That's almost entirely mafia rationale. A town player has no reason to act like this.

As for his other posts, I have a huge problem with post #365:

I agree - let's wait for replacements...

but if thatguy2 prod dodges again without posting content...

What exactly is he trying to say here? What is this post trying to accomplish? Think about this for a second, because this is actually the one post that really put me over the edge and made me want to commit to voting him.

This post is him trying to manipulate the vote onto thatguy2.

He

knows

that thatguy2 can't defend himself, and thanks to BBT's post on lurkers and the town's growing displeasure with the amount of inactivity in the thread, he knows that thatguy2 is an easy lynch for today and a free ride to day 2 if he doesn't get replaced due to prod dodging. The post indicates that he wants thatguy2 to get lynched,

without the commitment of a vote or attempting to hold himself responsible for thatguy2 flipping town.

Keep in mind that this isn't the first time that Wolfy has done this, as noted in post #104:

I'll need a bit of convincing.
If you're not, who do you think is and why?

Unfortunately I'm reading town on everybody who is contributing - I suspect more a fault with my reads than any real belief that the lurkers are scum.

If we mislynch on a lurker is that such a terrible thing?
[runs for cover]

VOTE: Mafia Moderator

There's an incredibly important line in this post that indicates his alignment and his mindset concerning the game. Here, I'll highlight it again:

If we mislynch on a lurker is that such a terrible thing?

[runs for cover]

This line indicates that his whole mindset is to stay out of the spotlight and to hide. On its own, it's not a particularly useful piece of evidence; when seen with the rest of my case, it is particularly damning, and reinforces the notion that he's trying to save himself rather than solve the game.

VOTE: Wolfy

Firstly, Mala's statements are not valid. Other than some similar reads, there is nothing to suggest that me and Wolfy are contributing similar posts, I thought this had already been disproved via Mora's VCA analysis. So the fact you have used this as a premise to your whole post, I think I have to disagree.

A newbie may feel the need to point out he is a newbie because he doesn't feel confident to just post his thoughts; in fear of being wrong or whatever other reasons. I don't feel Wolfy pointing out he is new makes me lean scum on him. Let's say he was scum, and he kept posting "Hey, I'm new", would that not be a possible cause for a D1 lynch? "Let's lynch the guy who is completely new and is happy to point that out, it's not like he can contribute much anyway even if he is town." Do you see how it can be looked at from both ways?

I also don't see anything wrong with his post re thatguy2. Are you happy for somebody to only post when they are dodging prods and are not even contributing all that much when they do post?

Overall, I just don't see your case I'm afraid. Although, after posting all that, according to Mala, that must make me scum right? Because I have been following Wolfy to try and blend into the thread? (Insert evidence here) If Wolfy is town, then I must be scum...?

Hmm, why did I just post this?

Tl;dr - Wolfy is town.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

That's it? That's all it took and you're done with Wolfy? That post probably took you a hell of a lot of effort to put together, scrounging up quotes and such, and you're willing to just throw it away on the basis of me saying booga booga me no likey?

Unvote

I need to think.

Wow...that's interesting.

You persist on making some ground, looking desperate for a lynch before D1 ends...we begin making ground and you back away almost straight away? If Mala flips scum, I know who I'm looking up next.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

OK that makes me feel better.

vote: malakittens

What makes you feel better? What are you doing?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Voting, you?

Can you explain what made you feel better please?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm being scummy as shit and no one cares to vote for me. Makes no sense. It's making me feel rather good about where my vote is now, I guess.

Mala stays away from Wolfy because now it's been called out, and votes the incoming replacement based on... what... "I do not have meta for scum"... Ok.

Shinobi rushed a voteswitch based on... who knows... seemed pretty damned convinced of himself 24 hours ago, little nudge and he's off like he touched a hot stove.

Where I'd truly like the votes to go is Shinobi, but no other townies are convinced based on everyone's declared reads and lack of votes. I think Shinobi is not sure whether to go through with bussing his partner, and Mala having no reads this far into Day 1 and reverting to meta, one-sided meta mind-you, is terminally suspect.

You're trying to play scummy? What are you trying to accomplish? You still didn't answer my question either.

I think Shinobi gave up quickly because the first few replies he got, people didn't seem to agree with him. I don't really like this, if he is gonna go through the effort of something like that, he needs a little conviction. I agree he gave up on it way too quickly. Shinobi seemed obvious town in beginning, based on the last few pages, I'm not so sure anymore.

....

I have reads, but they are gut. I need flips to analyze because interactions between players are wonky as hell. It's just how I play, I look for reactions and then use them after flips are given.

Call my behavior scummy, but it's just how I play. I'm not saying I have a stellar Day 1 as either alignment.

I use meta a lot especially for experienced players. Although, I already said that Enomis' meta isn't fully valid because I don't have scum games to base the behavior tells on, but I still don't like his introduction into the game.

His prior slot put you to L-1 on page 1.

Also playing scummy on purpose is a really bad way to play, imo.

@Bold - That is actually a very interesting point. Duly noted.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You're trying to play scummy?

Trying, no. I would, however, categorize the past two pages, with the voteswitch, sudden unvote, and sudden revote as pretty damn scummy, seen from an outside view.

How is a voteswitch scummy? It's not like you have been changing your vote left, right and centre.

The sudden unvote and revote was weird, which is why I questioned it, and you still haven't answered it. If Mala flips scum, I'll relentlessly chase you down D2 if I survive N1.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Mora, have you updated your townread on Wolfy based on his play, or is it still the scum preview button thing?

Also enomis, I didn't know you were from Singapore too

Really? That's what you're going to post with everything that's going on?

There are more pressing matters at hand than why Mora believes Wolfy is town.

What do you think of the wagon on Mala?

What is your read on Mala?

What do you make of Mora's vote/unvote?

What do you make of Shinobi's post about Wolfy being scum?

Of all the things you could have commented on, that was your first choice. That's...interesting.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm really happy with where my vote is placed right now. Strange that Mala chose one of the new guys to go after, it certainly gave her some time but I fear that time is running out.

I'm with Wolfy and Mora, let's get this done.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'd hate to use a word like... uh... "evidence"... because then I wouldn't hear the end of it from... someone....

But yeah....

Welcome to the dark side my friend. Evidence is all we got.

@mala: You're scumreading half the playerlist? Can you narrow it down a little more?

If I had to pick probably Enomis and one of BBT/wolfy. Idk my gut is just saying one of the latter are scum and I'm trusting my gut on that, tbh.

One of your latest post kinda makes sense in retrospect with your defense and you following that game.

Wow, a complete u-turn on Xayzeck is that? Xayzeck defends you, not looking for lynch. Lynch is looking likely, you make u-turn on

your partner

Xayzeck and pick new guy plus still either me or Wolfy.

Is your last act to clear your partner in crime?

I need to see this flip.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Mala

UNVOTE: Mala

Actually, I'm going to rethink this for a little bit.

Shinobi setting off every alarm in the station.

I was about to post this anyways, after re-reading the last time he put Mala at L-1, but then I come back to the present and see another dance step.

Don't even know how to process that yet.

This. What are you doing Shinobi? You seem to lack any sort of conviction. You vote and unvote within 20 mins of each other, you realize how bad this is gonna look if Mala flips scum right? You post a case on Wolfy, a case you put a lot of effort into I imagine, and get blown off it straight away from a few comments. Now, you can't even commit to a vote on Mala. The voting and unvoting is strange indeed.

We have 3 days left. 3 days... Mala has 3 votes and 2 people are not voting. Shinobi can't commit and Xayzeck doesn't want to place his vote on her either.

I think we're looking at a very serious possibility of a no lynch on D1 unless we sort ourselves out.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

@Mala:
You seem completely active this game as scum. A most recently completed game. Like today.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=38067

I am hard pressed to find out the games where you got lynched, town/scum. I just seem to see you keep getting NKed or endgamed. Only found one game where you were town when you got lynched. I am lazy to search anymore so....

Oh for fuck's sake.

Mala, why the hell did you do that?

Vote Count Analysis

We get it. I flip-flopped a lot on this lynch. You didn't need a graph to tell us. I'm still not convinced that Mala is scum, but her last statement is going to lead to her getting lynched no matter what.

MM, do me a favor and check me so I don't get lynched tomorrow if she flips scum.

I'd be cool with just a mass voteflip to Shinobi, FYI.

Shinobi is town. Those two bolded statements really stood out for me.

His over-reaction is understandable in my opinion. After being accused of lacking conviction, he is now showing those accusations to be wrong with his defence of Mala. He is going against the majority, trying to defend somebody from being lynched because he doesn't believe she is scum. His over-reaction, I believe, is because his actions in trying to defend Mala have made him come across as scummy. If Mala flips scum, Shinobi is very likely to be under pressure and is also a likely lynch for D2. However, having said that, I agree with Enomis(?), I think defend is the wrong word as he hasn't actually defended her. I would say hesitant is more accurate.

His bold statement of asking the cop to check him also makes me believe he is town. Although, there are a couple of things that stand out for me with this one. If he is scum, he obviously knows whether there is a roleblocker or not and simply roleblocking the cop gives him more time to argue his case on D2. Secondly, MM isn't the most active of players. There is a very good chance that the cop doesn't even look anybody up.

His vote and unvote, like Mora's, is still unsettling though. I am reading him as town, for now.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

His bold statement of asking the cop to check him also makes me believe he is town.

Please check me, cop.

Mala boldly stated that she is town, by the way.

Oh, and MM still says he's not mafia. (hey, that one is probably true!)

You seem to rely on "bold statements" as much as Mala relies on meta. People have been known to lie out their ass in this game. Just sayin'.

I hope the cop does check you, that would be nice.

I didn't mean he boldly stated he was town, you have misunderstood my post

Yeah, I was right to believe MM wasn't I? Sometimes, the simplest posts are the most truthful.

I don't believe people lie in this game. What would be the point? Just declare you're scum, get lynched, easy game. Right?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: xayzeck

Saying you take a completely different approach as scum and town while you had a scum game ongoing where you were active is like lying straight to our face.
VOTE: malakittens
This is

L-1

.

@Xayzeck:

Hey bro. If you are not seeing the mala thing. Question your upmost scumread or do something? Or even if you feel that she's town, ACTUALLY defend her?

So you needed a computer to type, No, i don't see mala as scum. She seems like town flailing.

Really, you needed a computer to do that?

Tsk tsk tsk. I really feel like switching my vote back to you.

From first glance, I picked up a mild town-read on Enomis. However, after ISO'ing, I'm not so sure anymore. From his reads, he has basically gone with the majority. Mala was under pressure of a lynch, a few people have expressed concerns regarding Xayzeck, and thatguy62 was an easy target. He seems happy to switch his vote to where the majority of attention if being focused. The last line about switching his vote because of Xayzeck's post is absurd.

First Xayzeck, then Mala for her lying about her meta-game, which I have to agree with actually. At least he has tried to provide a good case for his vote on Mala.

@Shinobi:

I might be overthinking this lynch really hard. I don't understand why scum would lie with their back to the wall when I'm already defending them. The concept doesn't make much sense, especially when I feel like I could swing this lynch on my own if I really, really wanted to. (I stand by the fact that I still think I could have done it when I pushed Wolfy, even if some players might not have agreed with it.)

When

did you defend her? You just voted and unvoted her. I didn't even see anything close to that. You had her as your scumread rite? Even if you did defend her(which you did not) Why would you be defending your scumread? Granted you are not sure about her lynch but defending???

Though the one thing I would like to point out is that his response is kind of shitty. I don't really like the way he writes this giant post that boils down to "lol u suk ur wrong." His townread on Wolfy is alright...I guess? I still think it's kind of a stretch, but if multiple people are saying it then I might just be wrong about Wolfy.

No, you don't just go with the majority/the flow. You see the majority's reason on WHY wolfy is town. Then you compare those reasons with your reasons why you scumread wolfy. You don't seem interested in doing that and try to read wolfy btr.

So Mala lied about her meta and that's really, really bad. I really want to vote her off now, but I just have one more question for Mora.

Actually, I'm going to rethink this for a little bit.

Mora, why would Mala lie about her meta?

And then:

Oh for fuck's sake.

Mala, why the hell did you do that?

This seems like a way overreaction to mala lieing. Seems faked.
-------
I am not liking you more and more shinobi.

Then he moves onto Shinobi for his attempted defence of Mala. I believe both myself and Mora(?), maybe more, expressed a concern with Shinobi's behaviour in the last couple of days. Again, does he think this is a possible lynch? Is he willing to just jump on any old wagon?

@Wolfy: That needs to depend on the doctor. A claimed cop is conf town, and conf town is always useful. But however, since he knows scum wouldn't kill the cop since scum would know there's a doctor, the doctor may not need to protect the cop.
So, all in all, it depends on the doc choice. Protect the cop or protect others. Both are fine.
Also,

If we lynch the roleblocker

, the cop can use his PR powers again.

Then, I saw this. Is this a scum slip? He seems certain there is a roleblocker...or am I reading too much into it? Either way, I'm really not sure about Enomis anymore and Mala's last ditch attempts to save herself may have actually worked.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Why Mala over Xayzeck?

Because she's the Wolfy/BBT false dilemma originator (#214)
Because "We can either have a doc or a BP." after a cop claim seems like a scumslip.
Because no reads, no scumhunting all day.
Because wifom arguments and "woe is me I'm terrible Day 1" instead of, you know, participation.
Because now, here, at the cusp of death, suddenly scumhunting, on a target with barely any posts, for bad reasons.

Shinobi and BBT, give me your views on this list.

I would have to say that I agree with everything that you have wrote here. The false dilemma that she refuses to give up with is pretty annoying and I'm sure that has contributed to her downfall. The set-up was strange for me, because Shinobi confirmed that I was wrong...and now here he is defending Mala. Coincidence? Her D1 has been pretty awful, agreed on the no scum-hunting, pretty inactive (except when under pressure funnily enough)

[BlueBloodedToffee]

For some reason, the Multi-Quote is messing up.

Mala was the first person to point a finger and be suspicious of Enomis.

See post #401, #402, #427 and #464

[BlueBloodedToffee]

@BBT:
Just to add on. No i did not jump on super wagons or go with the majority. These are my reads.
And looking at the past, it isn't even the case.

1.
When i voted xayzeck, heck, only mora voted him. And no matter how he beg or please, nobody is willing to jump on xayzeck wagon.

2.
Mala is a majority.

3.
Why would i even stir up a shinobi case at the end of D1. If i want to go with the majority or anything or shinobi or make use of you or mora (scumread on shinobi), i could do that well on D2.
Why would i do that when a Mala lynch is pretty much confirmed.

I don't think the thought of a Xayzeck wagon taking off at the time you posted is that far fetched. Numerous people have expressed varying degrees of concern over Xayzeck, you're right that no wagon had formed, but it's certainly not impossible that it could have happened.

Because no lynch is fantastic for scum? All of this confusion that is going on right now is very, very bad for town. Quite frankly, I'm a little worried about the lack of recognition that a no-lynch is becoming a serious possibility here, everybody seems pretty relaxed.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

@BBT: That is quite far fetched. You think if i am scum, my elaborate plan of pulling out the shinobi case is to have the town to no lynch?

I don't know what your plan is. You're a late comer, and I haven't had much chance to interact with you. I'm trying to get as much information as possible, I'm beginning to get confused with everything that is going on and it's becoming distracting.

I am still very happy with my Mala vote and I'm looking for information from her flip.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Less than a day left, with votes all over the place. Just thought I would point that out.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

This is getting ridiculous now, how the fuck have we allowed ourselves to get into this situation. Enomis is obviously town.

I provided a scum-case on him the other day, and it was a fairly weak case but I wanted to put something together to see what reactions I got, not only from Enomis but from everyone else as well. I find it very worrying that not one person questioned me about any part of it. It was kind of just accepted, or ignored, not sure which one.

I really don't like an Enomis lynch, and I'm actually quite surprised with how quickly this has turned around from a Mala lynch to an Enomis lynch. Whether Mala is scum or town, I think she would always post the way she did, no matter her alignment, she is trying to save herself at the end of the day (except for the comment about asking people to lynch her, I accepted this would be pretty ballsy as scum at that current time)

Mala's pointing the finger at Enomis, plus Shinobi's hesitancy to vote and his attempted defence of her, has thrown town into complete confusion and this just reeks of a panic lynch now. I think it's safe to say that D1 goes to scum.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Wagon build on enomis...
1. Mala
2. Xayzeck
3. Shinobi
4. Mora
5.

My strongest town reads:
MM
BBT

enomis

None of us on the wagon so I'm looking at a scum driven wagon here...

really concerned that Mala's gone quiet again now the pressure is on enomis.
really concerned at Mora's back-off on Mala - starting to think that we're being played by an M&M (not MM) scum team.

I don't want to hammer but I even less want to no lynch.

Mora is becoming a big concern for me, I am really struggling to read him. Sometimes he looks so obviously town, and then at others he looks 100% scum. MM, I would greatly appreciate if you consider looking up Mora. I was looking forward to the information from Mala's flip, but that seems pretty unlikely now.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't want to hammer but I even less want to no lynch.

I have been stressing over a no-lynch situation but everyone else seems pretty relaxed about it. Yet, here we are. I'm probably going to wake up tomorrow to see the decision that has been taken. I cannot stress enough, that I

ABSOLUTELY DO NOT WANT

an Enomis lynch, just from these early days he looks like he could be a very useful addition to town in this game.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

then at others he looks 100% scum.

When does this happen? Is it the quotes that enomis brought up that you are referring to?

It has happened throughout the whole of D1, if you iso my posts you will see where I have picked up on numerous things. I have struggled to read Mora from the beginning and it's starting to get a little frustrating, it also looks like a few other people are in the same boat. The cop could really help us out here, but I want also want him to keep his options open so scum don't know what to expect.

VOTE: enomis

absolutely

only

because I don't want no lynch and I can't see BBT, JCozmo or MM doing it

You stated intent, and hammered like, an hour later?

We've got 5-6 hours till deadline, why did you hammer so quickly?

I think Wolfy already answered this? He said whilst he doesn't want to lynch his 3rd(?) strongest town-read, he feels a no-lynch would be even worse.

BBT, if you felt so strongly about enomis town, why are we only hearing of it now, when he's at L-1? It's not just a townread on enomis either apparently, you seem too have a hardashell townread on him. When did this start?

It started when he started getting accused of being scum. All of his posts are so obviously townie, iso them and have a look through them. Friday and Saturday I was super busy, both day and night and I haven't been able to be as active as I would have liked. By the time I have got on to have a good look through the posts, he somehow had been placed at L-1. I was also waiting for any replies to my 'scum-case' that I built on him.

I would like to say at this point that I still don't think Mala is town. I think she is scum, even more so if Enomis flips town, which I'm pretty sure he will (otherwise, I'm going to look pretty stupid). She picked probably the easiest person to turn a lynch against, one of the replacements was an easy choice, and it happened to be Enomis. I'm looking at a Mora/Mala scum team right now.

I know, it's really hard for me to explain as well because I was so certain that enomis was mafia at the end of the day.

Ultimately I think it boils down to how he handled the Mala/eno lynch. He only unvoted Mala when he realized he wouldn't be able to gain traction...Maybe? I'm still not sure, but that's the only scumplayer I see at this point that makes any sort of sense if enomis is town.

But I still think enomis was scum. He still isn't answering Mora's question even in twilight, when he has nothing else to lose as town. His objective right now should be giving the town as much information as humanly possible, but he

still

isn't doing that, knowing full well that he's going to flip town as soon as the mod locks the thread.

Also I just realized that Mora just sheeped both of his scumreads onto a different lynch.

The bold is interesting because Mora stated even with his 'scummy behaviour' he wasn't gaining any votes. Did he point out this scummy behaviour before somebody else did to save his own back? I don't know, but I really don't like how D1 has played out.

If I get killed N1, please look into Mora/Mala, I feel quite strong that this is where the scum lie, if not both, then at least one of them.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Because she's the Wolfy/BBT false dilemma originator (#214)
Because "We can either have a doc or a BP." after a cop claim seems like a scumslip.
Because no reads, no scumhunting all day.
Because wifom arguments and "woe is me I'm terrible Day 1" instead of, you know, participation.
Because now, here, at the cusp of death, suddenly scumhunting, on a target with barely any posts, for bad reasons.

OK, Mora posted this list on Mala. He then specifically asked three people; Shinobi, Enomis and myself to respond to this list. Why did you only choose us three? What about the other players thoughts on your post? I think this may have been a post for scum to assess where town are at and where there current suspicions/thoughts are at the present time before we get to N1 so they can have a discussion about what to do.

After giving his reasons for Mala, he switches his vote to Enomis based on what? Two L-1 votes by two different players? One a mistake from RVS stage. I don't like this at all.

I've only had a quick look into this, I plan to do some further digging as well. The whole Mora/Mala argument where Mala states she is going to ignore Mora for the rest of the game ( but then doesn't?) This would have been a really good way for scum to completely avoid each other and nobody would be able to link the two of them together as a team.

Mala/Mora is looking more and more likely. I'm almost 100% Enomis will flip town.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Buhahaha, actually i am scum. You caught me guys.

Haha, you're joking. Right?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I agree that your end of D1 play was not very good Mora, you started to come across as pretty scummy. I don't know whether your pointing out your own faults so that nobody else does and you don't have to defend yourself?

You seemed pretty desperate to get a lynch on D1 and I think this is ultimately what caused your bad play. I just have to decide whether you wanted that lynch as scum (jumping wagon to wagon) or whether you genuinely felt it was bad for town to have a no lynch and just wanted a lynch on pretty much anybody.

Shinobi's play did raise a few questions and he went from a solid town-read for me to a null/leaning scum. It's certainly something I am interested in following up throughout D2.

I feel you have missed a very obvious, and quite important question out, why Wolfy? What the hell do scum gain from killing him? I felt sure that you [Mora] or myself was a N1 kill. I don't understand what a Wolfy death achieves?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I would like you to elaborate on your wagon jumping. What were your reasons for this?

Also, you say you 'sheeped two scum-reads' onto different lynches. Can you elaborate on this as well please.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I forgot to applaud Mala on a job well done as well. I'm pretty pissed off that the Enomis wagon managed to take off and I haven't forgotten who started it, or who continued it and wanted the lynch. Mala's lynch stood to provide a load of information for town, a load of information that scum would not have liked town to get access to I believe. There was a lot of action from Mala's L-1 and I'm pissed her lynch didn't happen. I'm talking specifically, but not limited to, the vote-switching [Mora] and Shinobi's defence (hesitancy) to vote for her as well.

Shinobi seems a very easy target for D2, and I'm not sure I'm entirely happy with it. Had Mala been lynched, and flipped town (which Mora seems sure of now), then surely Shinobi wouldn't even be considered for a D2 lynch.

Or am I missing something?

@Jcozmo - What do you feel scum gain from killing Wolfy?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I would like you to elaborate on your wagon jumping. What were your reasons for this?

Also, you say you 'sheeped two scum-reads' onto different lynches. Can you elaborate on this as well please.

As for wagon jumping, I'm not sure how you'd like me to elaborate, essentially, I was on the Mala "wagon" and I was on the Enomis "wagon". I believe I've detailed the reasons for both over the course of the game.

The "sheeped two scum-reads" comment comes from Shinobi, attempting to characterize my voting as following other players logic instead of using my own deductions.

I would like you to restate your reasons for each wagon, clearly and concisely. If your reasoning has changed due to lynch/night kill, provide that as well please.

What do you think scum achieved/tried to achieve by killing Wolfy?

In fact to save myself the time can everyone answer that question; What do you think scum tried to achieve with killing Wolfy?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You think there were no scum on that wagon?

There was two scum on that wagon. I feel very strongly that it was scum-driven and both scum jumped on.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

The answer to Wolfy entirely depends on whether you believe MafiaModerator is a cop. Anyone who believes he is, being that he's still alive, should realize fairly quickly what scum is doing.

Of course MM is a cop, I don't even know why we're debating this anymore. On this topic, can you post who you looked up MM, please?

You're going to have to elaborate. To me, it seems an almost random kill. As Jcozmo pointed out, Wolfy never really went after anyone. It's a kill on someone that posed no real threat to scum at all. All he really did was hammer enomis because he didn't want a no-lynch. I'm going to ISO Wolfy tomorrow and see if I can pick something up.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

As well as, why did scum leave the cop claim alive?

You should answer those too BBT.

I'll take first shot. The only thing that makes sense is that the cop is not a threat, if the cop is not a threat, then we are facing a roleblocker and town also has a doctor. If scum knew this, they may have assumed that the doc would protect the cop on N1, and killed elsewhere. This would also explain the kill itself a little bit now that I think about it. If scum knew there was a doctor, then the doctor knew that there was a roleblocker. The doctor may have assumed that scum would leave the cop because that's an obvious choice for doc to protect (and the cop poses no threat) and the doc has tried to save somebody else. Would the doc save a player such as Wolfy, probably not.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

So we might have a doc. I wasn't killed. Investigated someone (morarandom) got no result. Probably got roleblocked, shouldn't have revealed D1.

You're damn right you shouldn't have claimed. If you got blocked, there is a doc. You're pretty much useless as cop now (unless we find roleblocker), so please contribute in other ways. I would like to see more than one post every 3 days please.

I think the best play is to table this discussion until MM reveals his investigation results.

I'm suspicious of this. You probably know I was going to reveal a no result (thus your mafia), and wanted to hold off the discussion.

VTL Moramorandom

Do you not think it is possible he just didn't want the thread being filled up with hypothetical situations that scum may be able to manipulate?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Wagon build on enomis...
1. Mala
2. Xayzeck
3. Shinobi
4. Mora
5.

None of us on the wagon so I'm looking at a scum driven wagon here...

really concerned that Mala's gone quiet again now the pressure is on enomis.
really concerned at Mora's back-off on Mala - starting to think that we're being played by an M&M (not MM) scum team.

I don't want to hammer but I even less want to no lynch.

I'm assuming since my vote is on you that you think i am one of the three...
I don't want your head on a platter - I voted you because I believed you were scum
If you convince me you're town I won't be trying to lynch you.
Only diamonds are forever.

I also include as a reason your false dilemma - me or BBT.

Anyways, looks like the wind is changing...

I am also trying to get my head around why Shinobi defended Mala so strongly? That's not scum play to me.

OK, so after ISO'ing Wolfy it seems pretty clear who he had in his sights.

*He states a scum-driven wagon on Enomis, I'm in agreement with this.

*Points finger towards a Mala and Mora scum-team, I'm down with that as well.

*Restates his reasons for voting Mala, showing he hasn't changed his mind on her yet.

*Then I noticed something pretty interesting. I think he was one of the only people left who felt sure that Shinobi is town. So, with a lot of people doubting Shinobi after his late D1 actions, kill his biggest defender in Wolfy, and it should be a pretty easy D2 lynch, right?

You said you ISO'd Wolfy Jcozmo, I'm surprised you missed this.

What do you think of what I have posted?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Lots of stuff to address, I'll do it when I get home

Can you do this now please.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Lots of stuff to address, I'll do it when I get home

Can you do this now please.

my my aren't you pushy

When you said there was a lot to address, I was expecting more than what you put in your first post.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Why mafia killed Wolfy is kinda irrelevant. We don't know whether they saw a doctell or just random killed, and tbh it doesn't really help our position. Wolfy wasn't going to get mislynched anytime soon, and I think that should explain the nightkill enough. Don't get too distracted with why Wolfy died is what I'm trying to get at

You don't think that by trying to understand why scum killed who they killed it could help us to figure out who they are/what their plan is? I think it's a pretty important part of the information that N1 brings.

Ah, OK. I would prefer if you just multi-quoted, or even used spoilers and did it in one post. Saves multi-posting/spamming. Each to their own I guess.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I notice that you did not heed this implied advice.

Correct. It was an after thought, as well as this though; I just wanted to reply to MM in anyway that I could to try and get him to contribute to the game a little more.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

@Jcozmo

- Can you reply to my question at the end of my post on Wolfy please.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

First, as far as me missing something, I don't think that I did. I don't think any of that specifies a target for Wolfy particularly when it's not taken out of context and looking at his whole ISO. I also think Wolfy being Shinobi's "biggest defender" its a huge stretch based on that single line, which basically just repeats what I had stated a few posts earlier. No where that I can see does he say he's sure Shinobi is town. He doesnt even come close to saying that. What he's saying is actually close to the opposite by saying that Enomis is a scum driven wagon, and his strongest town reads arent on it.

He also stated and you agree that he thought a potential Mora and Mala scum team was likely, which I feel is pretty close to the

least

likely scum team. If they are, then more power to them for an Oscar worth D1 performance. Hats off. I'm not buying that though.

I do find myself agreeing that its a scum driven wagon on Enomis though.

1. Mala
2. Xayzeck
3. Shinobi
4. Mora

5. BBT

2 of these five ARE scum, and 4 of the five were on the Enomis wagon. We are at an unbelievable disadvantage right now due to the cop claim D1. Sorry to keep piling on, MM, its just the truth.

I find myself leaning towards Mala as town, which leads me down a path that leans me toward Shinobi being town.

The case against Mora is almost too easy at this point. The points people are bringing up are valid, but I'm still getting a weird feeling that lynch is a trap.

By process of elimination that leaves you BBT, and Xayzeck as maybe #1a scum team possibilty, with a completely legit possibility that its one of that team plus Mora as #1b and #1c.

Now I'm just going to go back, re-read and question why I lean town on Shinobi if Mala is town. Perhaps that isnt valid.

It's not taken out of context. They are his last few posts of who he is pointing his finger at, I'm not sure why you're dismissing that. His whole ISO doesn't matter, it's what happened towards the end of D1 when the activity starting picking up that really matters.

How is it a huge stretch? He stated he didn't think Shinobi was scum based on his defence of Mala. Did anybody else state this? Or was everybody else in doubt of Shinobi's actions? I think you will find it's the latter.

Mala's flip had the potential to provide a lot of information that would have cleared some people and put suspicion on others. We were deprived of that due to all the last minute panic voting.

The last part is interesting. So I go from 'towniest person' to 'part of your number one scum team' in not a very long time at all.

Can you elaborate on your Mala being town read please. I think you will find this more appropriate than looking into Shinobi's actions.

Why is the case on Mora too easy? And if it is, why does this mean he isn't scum? People are bringing up valid points, and then you just dismiss them in your next phrase.

Case on Mora is too easy...but he could be part of a 'b' or 'c' scum team. Do you find that contradictory?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

The ONLY definitive statement he makes is that its a scum driven wagon (which I agree with) and that he sees Mala and Mora a good possibility (which I strongly disagree with). You are making it out like what was saying made him a target for the NK, which I don't think those quotes make a strong case for.

How is it a huge stretch? Jesus man, he says ONE LINE "this seems town to me" and that means he "certain" Shinobi is town? Really? Thats not a stretch? He later calls out his town reads and guess who is NOT on the list? Shinobi.

My statements about Mora arent contradictory in the slightest, maybe you ought to read the post again - I say the points are valid, but it seems like a trap (just a feeling) then I dont even put his possibility of being even #2, its just 1b and 1c - why? because I didnt "dismiss" the points toward him at all.

Mala being town is just always been my read, and that got stronger as she was closest to lynch. I just never bought into that wagon. I think questioning my "read" on Shinobi is still the best option I have.

On you, its like I said, its more a process of elimination more than anything incriminating. We are all shooting in the dark here, essentially. I wouldnt say I scumread you to this point. I just have certain reasons why I think other people had town tells stronger than your participation. And I only have 5 to chose from in the first place.

I concede on Wolfy being Shinobi's only/strongest town-reader. After ISO'ing a few people (didn't bother to get through everyone), both Xayzeck and Mala were town-reading Shinobi, Mora seemed unsure, and Enomis was leaning scum. I myself was doubting his actions as well and was unsure on my read.

1b and 1c is just another way of saying 2 and 3, right?

You can't just state 'Mala being town is just always been my read' after 30 pages of information and at the start of D2. That's not going to cut it. Why is she a town-read?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

For Day 2, No ones play makes less sense as town than Shinobi's, who was high on my list of scum-possibles well before he went off the deep end. He was "so certain" Eno was scum for basically no valid reasons whatsoever, then after it becomes apparent that isnt the case, he starts lobbing grenades for Day 2 lynch candidates. He can go ahead and attempt to explain in a little more detail how I'm "scumreading like a motherfucker", that should contain some wonderfully thought out reasoning and logic, much like his long-winded reads on Wolfy and Eno.

What I see is he wanted Wolfy lynched because he had a 500-word open and shut case that he IMMEDIATELY abandoned when called out for it, then jumped on and off various wagons of town members until Lynch day.

So I'm inclined to vote Shinobi.

At the same time scums choice to NK Wolfy, not the claimed cop or anyone else, needs to be discussed. IMO a Wolfy lynch points directly at Shinobi, so that seems like a pretty stupid freaking NK if I'm Shinobi.

I find myself leaning towards Mala as town, which leads me down a path that leans me toward Shinobi being town.

Can you explain your sudden change in reads of Shinobi please?

You also didn't answer my question regarding Mora; why do you feel he is an easy case? And if he is an easy case, why does that make him less likely to be scum?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I dont have a sudden change for how I feel about Shinobi. I feel like play has been scummy, the only thing that's stopping me from voting for him was his defense of Mala which does not seem like a good scum move. If someone is able to explain that, he moves way up on my list.

For Mora, I just feel like he walked into a glass door while scum hunting. I dont think his actual play is scummy but the way D1 ended it just was easy to put him into the light in that way.

And anyways I just went through BBT's ISO and that has me thinking more about my town reads again.

Your read changed on Shinobi with very little new information being presented. You commented on his 'scummy play' AFTER the defence of Mala at the start of D2.

For Day 2, No ones play makes less sense as town than Shinobi's, who was high on my list of scum-possibles well before he went off the deep end. He was "so certain" Eno was scum for basically no valid reasons whatsoever, then after it becomes apparent that isnt the case, he starts lobbing grenades for Day 2 lynch candidates. He can go ahead and attempt to explain in a little more detail how I'm "scumreading like a motherfucker", that should contain some wonderfully thought out reasoning and logic, much like his long-winded reads on Wolfy and Eno.

What I see is he wanted Wolfy lynched because he had a 500-word open and shut case that he IMMEDIATELY abandoned when called out for it, then jumped on and off various wagons of town members until Lynch day.

So I'm inclined to vote Shinobi.

At the same time scums choice to NK Wolfy, not the claimed cop or anyone else, needs to be discussed. IMO a Wolfy lynch points directly at Shinobi, so that seems like a pretty stupid freaking NK if I'm Shinobi.

This was your post on Shinobi at the start of D2...so you can't use his defence of Mala as your reason for you change of read from 'high on your scum-possibles' to 'leaning town'. Explain how and why your read has changed please.

You don't think Mora's end of D1 play was scummy? Even though he admitted himself that looking from the outside in his play would look scummy?

I'm being scummy as shit and no one cares to vote for me. Makes no sense.

You're trying to play scummy?

Trying, no. I would, however, categorize the past two pages, with the voteswitch, sudden unvote, and sudden revote as pretty damn scummy, seen from an outside view.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I said before, my leaning town for him was based on leaning town for Mala, not on how I felt about his play.

And you're still yet to provide the reasons for your town Mala read, and thus your Shinobi town read.

Your read changed, there is no denying that.

2 of these five ARE scum, and 4 of the five were on the Enomis wagon. We are at an unbelievable disadvantage right now due to the cop claim D1. Sorry to keep piling on, MM, its just the truth.

I find myself leaning towards Mala as town, which leads me down a path that leans me toward Shinobi being town.

The case against Mora is almost too easy at this point. The points people are bringing up are valid, but I'm still getting a weird feeling that lynch is a trap.

By process of elimination that leaves you BBT, and Xayzeck as maybe #1a scum team possibilty, with a completely legit possibility that its one of that team plus Mora as #1b and #1c.

Now I'm just going to go back, re-read and question why I lean town on Shinobi if Mala is town. Perhaps that isnt valid.

Here, you pretty much exonerate Shinobi. So again, he went from a scum-read to a leaning town read with virtually no new information presented. In your last sentence, it reads like you're going to re-read to try and

justify

why you think Shinobi

is

town, not

whether or not

he is town. Your mind seems made up.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

@Mala

- Is this your improved play? I know you have a bad D1 and all so I can't wait to see the improvement from you.

@Jcozmo

- How long do you need to provide a town case for Mala and Shinobi?

@Mora

- Shinobi and Jcozmo? Really?

I have re-read the game, I'm willing to drop my Mala/Mora theory, it was a weak case based on weak reasoning anyway. Something changed with the last read through and the whole argument between the two of you felt more genuine this time round. If it had been kept up (the two of you not speaking to each other), I may have been more suspicious of it. However, I am convinced that one of you are scum. Mora has his really towny moments (such as his VCA analysis and his desperation for a lynch yesterday (though this could easily be scum as well, I got a town feel from it).

Mala however, is still providing nothing. She knew Enomis was town, because she is scum. I'm not willing to drop this read and she hasn't done anything to make me doubt it. Enomis was an easy target to go for and it really confused town, causing a quite obvious (to me anyway) mislynch. Her argument against Enomis was extremely weak and somehow it took off and we ended up with an Enomis wagon. I felt sure that both scum were on the Enomis wagon, I'm not so sure anymore.

I await your cases on Mala and Shinobi, Jcozmo.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Why are you surprised?

Does it not seem a strange combination to you? What makes you link the two of them together?

If Mala had been lynched and flipped town, we would already know if Shinobi is town or not. Vice versa, if she had been lynched and flipped scum, Shinobi would have already been lynched by now. I feel that Shinobi is a pretty easy D2 lynch because of his late D1 actions. I don't agree with his actions, and some of them made him look pretty scummy, but I just don't feel like Shinobi is scummier than other players we currently have in the game.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

What makes you link the two of them together?

Huh? Why does this matter?

If Mala had been lynched and flipped town, we would already know if Shinobi is town or not. Vice versa, if she had been lynched and flipped scum, Shinobi would have already been lynched by now.

Huh? How do you figure?

I'm curious as to why you think the two of them could be scum together. You must have reasons, state them.

Do you see a scum Shinobi (knowing whether Mala is town or not) defending Mala against the majority if he knows she is town? No, scum Shinobi let's her get lynched. Would a town Shinobi defend Mala if he believed her to be town? Damn right he would. If Mala had of flipped town when lynched, I would be very happy to assume Shinobi was also town (pretty much for the rest of the game)

However, scum Shinobi would also defend scum Mala in this way. Had Mala flipped scum, Shinobi would have been the obvious D2 lynch because of his reactions. This is why I'm still unsure of Shinobi and one of the reasons I wanted Mala's lynch pretty badly.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm curious as to why you think the two of them could be scum together. You must have reasons, state them.

I don't see any relevance to the "togetherness" factor? Why do you?

Do you see a scum Shinobi (knowing whether Mala is town or not) defending Mala against the majority if he knows she is town? No, scum Shinobi let's her get lynched. Would a town Shinobi defend Mala if he believed her to be town? Damn right he would. If Mala had of flipped town when lynched, I would be very happy to assume Shinobi was also town (pretty much for the rest of the game)

However, scum Shinobi would also defend scum Mala in this way. Had Mala flipped scum, Shinobi would have been the obvious D2 lynch because of his reactions. This is why I'm still unsure of Shinobi and one of the reasons I wanted Mala's lynch pretty badly.

All of this seems rather presumptuous. I don't like "optimal play" cases, particularly in newbie games.

OK, I assumed you had noticed a connection between the two of them. Obviously I was wrong. You have presented why you think Shinobi is scum, care to do the same for Jcozmo?

Let me get this straight and absolutely crystal clear - Are you saying it's possible that a scum Shinobi defended a town Mala in the manner he did?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

UNVOTE: Wolfy
VOTE: Mala

Hopefully I'll see you all day 2.

Shinobi was Mala's L-1. That line at the end of his post is almost certainly a town-tell. He is ready for Mala to be lynched and to move into D2.

That's it? That's all it took and you're done with Wolfy? That post probably took you a hell of a lot of effort to put together, scrounging up quotes and such, and you're willing to just throw it away on the basis of me saying booga booga me no likey?

Unvote

I need to think.

OK that makes me feel better.

vote: malakittens

Then you [Mora] started acting all scummy and shit. You caused Shinobi to change his vote and doubt himself as shown in the following quote. He feels he has made a mistake in dropping his read so quickly and tries to backtrack.

I'm not done with Wolfy. He isn't going to die tonight because he's either scum or a mislynch waiting to happen. The issue is that I felt really good about it when I made it and I think I psyched myself out after I posted it and I got such poor responses. Besides, it's not like my case is going to disappear if I die or something.

UNVOTE: Mala

Answer BBT's question please.

Here is the initial case that Mala presented on Enomis. I had to cut out a lot of this post because for some reason the spoilers were messing up my post when I was previewing (so please do check the post out, I wouldn't want to be accused of misrepresenting information). But this was the case that Mala presented on Enomis. Can anybody explain to me how this took off and we ended up with a mislynch? That would be great.

Alright took a quick skim of Enomis' games that he has replaced into. Some games were eaten by the crash in addition to the ones that he has replaced into has been all town. He hasn't replaced into one scum slot so I do not have meta to base off behaviors on how'd he act replacing into a scum slot.

The four town slots are different from his replacement in this game. He actually explained his reads rather than replacing in and saying x&y are town, which leaves z, q and d as scum possibilities.

The only huge difference between one of the town games was this:

His second/third post was:

Gambino/Wilma slot is town.

Seriously, like Gambino slot is fking town. I don't understand how you guys read her as scum.

Suspicion on that slot stays still as I'm convinced that his reads aren't genuine. I don't like his approach into the game:

I'm going to VOTE: Enomis

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't really see "Hopefully I'll see you all day 2" as alignment-relevant. He could be, you know, pretending.

The point of #392 was that I didn't like how easily, how divorced Shinobi was from his own opinions. As if his opinions did not matter, in the grand scheme of things. So I got scared about Mala's wagon. Mala's then comes in immediately following and posts some low content stuff and more meta, so I was re-convinced that the wagon was fine.

As for Mala's case, it's pretty par for the course. It's a case about Enomis's meta. From the most meta-reliant player I've ever seen ever. Wasn't my case, wasn't even a necessarily good case, but it certainly fits what I'd expect to see out of Mala (not an insult, btw).

Do you see how that line could represent the fact that Shinobi was finished with D1 and was happy with his vote?

It's par for the course for Mala, I'm still not quite sure how everybody else bought into it. Can you offer some suggestions? Do you regard it as a particularly strong case?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Here are people's reasons for jumping on the Enomis wagon.

If I really wanted to lynch someone, it would be enomis:

Also guys wicked just ended last night. My posts yesterday about meta were during the day. I won't a) talk about ongoing games b) comprise the game by saying 'oh yeah btw I have recently destroyed my scum meta by manipulating a game!' When it's not finished.

I worked my ass off in wicked to get where I was there and wasn't jereopadizing it here even though I was self meta'ing.

Ermm, No look here. Shouldn't your thoughts be:" Oh no, i am being being accused to being scum. Lets use my meta of me being inactive as scum as a defense. But i have an ongoing game where i am scum and i am active. Therefore I should not

LIE

to town here by using my meta as my defense since that is going to be not true. I should prolly use some other method."

The above is maybe what town mala would have thought?

I am satisfied with my vote.

Someone hammer please.

This post

reeks

of storyline lynch. Lying isn't a great move, by any circumstance, but enomis is using lying as his main reason for pushing this lynch. I've already stated that lying is null at best, but for a player like enomis who has been here for 2 years, it sounds like a copout.

And then there's the fact that he admits that she might be town, and then asks someone to hammer anyway. Because...That's why you lynch people, I guess? Because you think they could be town? It's a shit reason for lynching someone, and I don't like it.

VOTE: enomis

I...think I covered everything regarding the way that I feel right now.

At least Shinobi has attempted to make a case. But it basically boils down to Enomis sees lying as a scum-tell, Shinobi doesn't, and Shinobi dislikes that Enomis thought Mala could be town but wanted to lynch her anyway.

(hey, look, enomis L-1 two seperate people this game)

Mora's reasoning is...well...that he placed an L-1 vote and so did his predecessor. Hmm.

townreading BBT, Shinobi, Mora, MM

nulltown on you

Wolfy and Mala i'm not sure of. I've got reasons to scumread and townread both of them, so I can't really decide

I'm scumreading enomis

Apparently, Xayzeck found Mala's case to be quite sufficient for Enomis' lynch without actually providing any reasons of his own.

Pretty solid reasoning for this lynch right? Wrong. What a pile of shit reasoning from everyone that was repsonsible for the Enomis lynch. Mala started it all off with her accusing of his entry into the game, and somehow Enomis ends up lynched.

That was some pretty good misdirection if I've ever seen it. Again, I think Mala should be applauded for her efforts.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I also forgot to mention that he actually got hammered by somebody who had a town-read on him as well. So only 4 people saw it fit to lynch Enomis, with only two presenting cases, and both pretty weak cases at that.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

No, I have been busy. Works and finals are next week, more important things.

Also, I'm not understanding part of this post.

I knew Enomis was town? How so, because I was scumreading Enomis and sure as hell not townreading him. Enomis was an easy target, how so? My argument was wrong because Enomis flipped town, but I can admit part of my argument on Enomis was a bit weak because I didn't have a scum-replacement in game, but in my mind there was a clear difference between meta approaches to an ongoing game. I'm not sorry I pushed him because I truly thought I was onto something.

Why aren't you sure that both scum were on the Enomis wagon?

What are your reads now?

(Mom wants me for something, be back in a few hopefully)

I'm saying you knew Enomis was town because you are scum. I'm afraid I can't make it any more clear than that.

He was an easy target because he was new to the game and people didn't have much information to base a read off, as proven by my inquest into his wagon and the reasons that people voted him (a wagon that you started, I may add). He was an easy panic-lynch for town to latch onto, it could quite easily have been Jcozmo, but Enomis started to push back on you when you made your case against him, and that opened him up for everybody else to jump on as well.

Well hello scum driven wagon on me. I don't like that Shin put me at L-1 without declaring it and then proceeds to go oh if people can intent to hammer that would be great. Something is off about that, but I actually like his Wolf case to be fair. Some of if was convincing.

I don't like Eno's entry, but that's just me. I just dislike entry's like that without explanations given. Can't prove he read the thread and what not and if his reads are genuine.

This is strange. You state there is a 'scum driven' wagon on you, then proceed to go after somebody who wasn't even voting for you at the time. Why would you not try to figure out who the scum were on your wagon? Or was Enomis an easier choice and a probable easy lynch?

I'm not sure that both scum were on the wagon because of my short interaction with Jcozmo. He massively over-reacted to what I thought was quite tame questioning. Maybe he has a short temper, I don't know, but it seemed like a scummy reaction to me.

PEdit - Wolfy's death makes me confirmed scum for you...and you still list two people who you believe are scummier than me. Fantastic.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Considering if you read any of my posts Day 1, which you did because I think our back and forth is pretty proven that you were interacting with me. That my "hello scum driven wagon" more or less refers to my scum read on both you and BBT. I was leaning scum heavily on you both, mora I was disliking due to attitude things and yes that was the only thing I disliked about Shin was that comment.

I went after Enomis because I didn't feel his entry was genuine. That is pretty clear in that post so I was trying to pressure him and the more I meta'd him the more I didn't like him.

I said that I was reconsidering that? Also your current posts gave me a townish feel and I also have said that too. Also I have said multiple times that Wolfy could have died for mulitple reasons, I'm not going to strongarm at you during Day 2 when I'm not currently up to date. Now that I am I have stated that Jco's defense after being questioned ++ his filler in regards to the cop doesn't sit well.

You think I can hold both scum slots. Man, I'm in trouble.

With all the information we had on all the other players in the game, you decided to go after somebody whose entry you didn't like. That's pretty weak, in fact no, that's really weak. You couldn't find a better reason to go after any other player in the game than that?

You seem to have had a scum-read on me from quite early on. Why have you not presented a case on me yet? Why did you not present a case on me when your wagon was building up? Why have you done absolutely nothing to try and back up your scum-read on me?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

That my "hello scum driven wagon" more or less refers to my scum read on both you and BBT. I was leaning scum heavily on you both

Are you sure you didn't say that?

I didn't say that?

Yes, I decided to go after him because Hashtag's L-1 on Page 1 wasn't the greatest. Please do present a perfect case on someone. Day 1 isn't a lot of information without a flip if you think all Day 1 cases aren't weak then you are indeed in trouble. Day 1 players are chasing their tails and other players tails. I thought Enomis was a higher chance of being scum and I felt because he was more experience I had a more solid footing than I did with anyone else.

You were being townread by half the game (which I still don't understand, but whatever.) and my persuasion skills aren't the greatest and my read was mainly in gut and dislike. I didn't really have a case for you that was solid enough to approach well. With Eno I had a least a footing.

Hashtag's L-1 was clearly a mistake, which he quickly took back. Although Mora seemed to think it was enough to lynch Enomis, so yeah...

You chose to present a case on somebody who had made like 3 posts. Then tried to use a load of information from other games to back up what you were trying to say. We had no/very little information about Enomis, I really don't like the way you went after him.

Hmm, his experience is something town could have used I feel, especially in a newbie game. Do you disagree? Did you try to get rid of somebody who had experience and posed a possible threat to you?

You don't have to follow what other people think. You can think freely, sheep are no good to town. Independent thinking is encouraged.

I feel pretty strongly that you're scum. The problem is, with your close call yesterday, I think I have to agree with Enomis(?) that you're probably just gonna float into endgame now and I'm not sure if I'm just gonna waste time and effort in trying to get you lynched that could be otherwise spent looking for your partner.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Here is a list of your posts leading up to the voting of Enomis (These posts are consecutive, I haven't missed one out)

Ah, I see. How does that affect your read on me? Why would it contribute to a scumread?

Why am I suddenly not in the list when I was at the bottom of your list?

I'm on a phone right now, not near a computer. I can't give this the attention it needs from a phone

@mala still

Why am I suddenly not in the list when I was at the bottom of your list?

Why am I suddenly not in the list when I was at the bottom of your list?

I'm still not seeing the mala thing to be honest. It just feels like townflailing over scumflailing right now.

@Xayzeck:

Hey bro. If you are not seeing the mala thing. Question your upmost scumread or do something? Or even if you feel that she's town, ACTUALLY defend her?

So you needed a computer to type, No, i don't see mala as scum. She seems like town flailing.

Really, you needed a computer to do that?

Tsk tsk tsk. I really feel like switching my vote back to you.

I townread her because her play looked like the townplay I saw, I thought that was pretty clear, I guess not.

And seriously? It's obviously easier to assess people on a computer. I skim posts on a phone, so normally if a game walls like crazy(this one especially), I'll wait until I'm on a computer before I do it. We are obviously not in a rush for a lynch, I don't know why you are so concerned with me putting this game back a few hours.

That as a scumtell is a incredibly weak. I'm really not impressed.

Well I was hoping for more info before a hammer - didn't expect that much.

Xayzeck, again, what are your current reads?

townreading BBT, Shinobi, Mora, MM

nulltown on you

Wolfy and Mala i'm not sure of. I've got reasons to scumread and townread both of them, so I can't really decide

I'm scumreading enomis

No I'm pretty sure I unvoted Wolfy

VOTE: enomis[/unvote]

lol i failed the vote so bad

VOTE: enomis

Can you show me where your reasons are for voting Enomis in these posts please?

The more I read, the more it looks like an OMGUS vote.

Man, this Enomis wagon gets crazier and crazier.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

OK, I think I have given Jcozmo enough time to present his cases. He seems to have gone missing. How can I try and help him back....hmmm

VOTE: Jcozmo

[BlueBloodedToffee]

OK, I think I have given Jcozmo enough time to present his cases. He seems to have gone missing. How can I try and help him back....hmmm

VOTE: Jcozmo

I, too, tend to go missing at 3:28 in the morning.

I know you don't think that's the only reason I'm voting him. I hope you're paying a lot more attention than you're letting on as well.

Can you elaborate on your Mala being town read please. I think you will find this more appropriate than looking into Shinobi's actions.

You can't just state 'Mala being town is just always been my read' after 30 pages of information and at the start of D2. That's not going to cut it. Why is she a town-read?

Can you explain your sudden change in reads of Shinobi please?

Your read changed on Shinobi with very little new information being presented. You commented on his 'scummy play' AFTER the defence of Mala at the start of D2.

For Day 2, No ones play makes less sense as town than Shinobi's, who was high on my list of scum-possibles well before he went off the deep end. He was "so certain" Eno was scum for basically no valid reasons whatsoever, then after it becomes apparent that isnt the case, he starts lobbing grenades for Day 2 lynch candidates. He can go ahead and attempt to explain in a little more detail how I'm "scumreading like a motherfucker", that should contain some wonderfully thought out reasoning and logic, much like his long-winded reads on Wolfy and Eno.

What I see is he wanted Wolfy lynched because he had a 500-word open and shut case that he IMMEDIATELY abandoned when called out for it, then jumped on and off various wagons of town members until Lynch day.

So I'm inclined to vote Shinobi.

At the same time scums choice to NK Wolfy, not the claimed cop or anyone else, needs to be discussed. IMO a Wolfy lynch points directly at Shinobi, so that seems like a pretty stupid freaking NK if I'm Shinobi.

This was your post on Shinobi at the start of D2...so you can't use his defence of Mala as your reason for you change of read from 'high on your scum-possibles' to 'leaning town'. Explain how and why your read has changed please.

And you're still yet to provide the reasons for your town Mala read, and thus your Shinobi town read.

Your read changed, there is no denying that.

2 of these five ARE scum, and 4 of the five were on the Enomis wagon. We are at an unbelievable disadvantage right now due to the cop claim D1. Sorry to keep piling on, MM, its just the truth.

I find myself leaning towards Mala as town, which leads me down a path that leans me toward Shinobi being town.

The case against Mora is almost too easy at this point. The points people are bringing up are valid, but I'm still getting a weird feeling that lynch is a trap.

By process of elimination that leaves you BBT, and Xayzeck as maybe #1a scum team possibilty, with a completely legit possibility that its one of that team plus Mora as #1b and #1c.

Now I'm just going to go back, re-read and question why I lean town on Shinobi if Mala is town. Perhaps that isnt valid.

Here, you pretty much exonerate Shinobi. So again, he went from a scum-read to a leaning town read with virtually no new information presented. In your last sentence, it reads like you're going to re-read to try and

justify

why you think Shinobi

is

town, not

whether or not

he is town. Your mind seems made up.

@Jcozmo

- How long do you need to provide a town case for Mala and Shinobi?

I await your cases on Mala and Shinobi, Jcozmo.

Stop trying to distract me Mora.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I await your cases on Mala and Shinobi, Jcozmo.

This is the only question in that post that is valid, I have addressed all your other bullshit Wednesday, to my utter annoyance.

I may have this by today, maybe tomorrow. Depends how today goes work-wise. But I will have that at some point, not for you, but to come to an initial conclusion about my own D2 vote.

Umm, that post wasn't for you. It was for Mora.

However, the news of your upcoming cases is fantastic.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I await your cases on Mala and Shinobi,

Jcozmo.

This is the only question in that post that is valid, I have addressed all your other bullshit Wednesday, to my utter annoyance.

I may have this by today, maybe tomorrow. Depends how today goes work-wise. But I will have that at some point, not for you, but to come to an initial conclusion about my own D2 vote.

Umm, that post wasn't for you. It was for

Mora

.

However, the news of your upcoming cases is fantastic.

What's going on?

Could you be more specific?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

What's being addressed to me?

I assumed Jcozmo was talking about the post I presented to you after your 'I go missing at x:xx time in the morning'. To which you replied 'Touchy'

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Can you show me where your reasons are for voting Enomis in these posts please?

The more I read, the more it looks like an OMGUS vote.

Man, this Enomis wagon gets crazier and crazier.

538 would be it.

It could be natural OMGUS, but I simply felt that he had an incredibly weak push on me, and I saw that as scummy.

I looked at the Shinobi case, and here's the thing. I had a townread on Mora earlygame, and that's kinda gone everywhere given I don't know how to sort him. He's had a great play early D1, and I don't think he would be freaking out as scum over the fact they wouldn't get a lynch end D1. If anything, I think it's scummy if he didn't try and help wagon someone end D1, so unless I'm skipping over a shitton of details right now, I don't think he's scum anymore. Shinobi I've had as town for a very long time now, and Mora's case doesn't exactly make me go "Oh shit, I've been townreading scum this whole time". So no. It just feels like you want to enter D2 with some sort of scumread, and you just picked Shinobi for reasons I don't understand. It doesn't feel like you're convinced yourself of Shinobi scum tbh.

I can't sort this game out for some reason, BBT and Jcoz feel jumpy and off with their interactions with each other for the last few pages, and this is kinda different from the BBT that was playing D1, he seems awfully more aggressive D2.

So basically, I'm not going to vote for Shinobi. BBT is no longer a strong townread, and Mora is no longer my strongest scumread, and today, for me, it'd be between BBT and Jcoz.

I would ISO BBT to see if there's anything super scummy that I've looked over, but he has too many fucking walls it'd bore my balls off. I'll do that another time.

@mora: If you're still considering Shinobi scum, who would be buddy?

Jcoz is at L-2 right now, and I don't have a ton of time today. I'll read the more recent pages in detail when I've got the time and drive.

The aggressiveness (if it even exists) could well be down to town getting owned at the end of D1 and my unhappiness with what was obviously a panic lynch on a player who I felt could have been very useful for town down the line. A panic lynch that I feel quite strongly was scum driven. I don't want that to happen again.

You'll ISO me another time? What? If it 'bores your balls off now' it will still bore you in 12 hours time, 2 days time, 7 days time etc etc, might as well get it done now.

Can you explain what makes me feel different on D2? Can you show where I have been more aggressive on D2 than D1? Can you explain what makes you think I am 'jumpy and off' regarding my interactions with Jcozmo as well please?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You're pushing a shitton harder, and you never did this D1, at least not to my memory.

Right now, you're aggressive as hell, you probably can't see it because you're doing it though.

Jcoz has pointed it out too, you're jumping to conclusions, and you feel a lot more on your toes as compared to D1, where you felt more relaxed. Again, also linked to aggressiveness.

Of course, scum want to drive a mislynch, but town need a lynch too. Saying that it was a panic lynch and it was solely scumdriven doesn't make sense to me at all. Nearing deadline with wagons all over, there's townmotivation in paniclynching someone, because nolynching is antitown. Of course, if you've drawn the conclusion that it's scumdriven, then that's up to you to base your reads on.

Am I pushing harder than I was on D1? I suggest you ISO me.

What am I doing that makes me aggressive? So far D2, I have questioned Jcozmo, posted an inquest into the Enomis wagon and now I'm in the middle of a discussion with you. Where is the aggression?

I may be jumping to conclusions, I did this on D1 as well. I feel it's a good way to get information and develop reads. Again, I suggest you ISO me.

I agree that town needed a lynch, but I don't think it's hard to see that Enomis was a panic lynch. Town was completely confused towards the end of D1, and in the end, it took a player to hammer somebody who he was town-reading just to get a lynch. What I'm saying is, it was a very easy situation for scum to take advantage of and I don't want to end up in the same situation at the end of D2.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yes you are. You're asking a lot more and pushing a lot harder compared to D1.

The way you've been approaching interactions and just the vibe I've been getting from you strikes me as aggressive. I'm sure as hell you've done more than just what you've said though.

You are jumping to conclusions and calling things a lot more D2 than you are D1. D1 felt a little more relaxed and passive.

Both wagons end of D1 were not universally townread or scumread. You would be calling it paniclynch and scumdriven regardless because someone had to hammer their townread either way.

You seem to be scumreading Jcoz right now yes? So if it is a scumdriven wagon, why are you looking at Jcoz the most when he was offwagon?

@mod: VC please

OK, I don't know where you're trying to go with this different playstyle discussion. What is your point?

Your point about the wagons is just furthering what I was saying about it being left so late and town being confused. I don't even know why we're debating if it was a panic lynch, because it quite clearly was. Go re-read my post about the Enomis wagon and it's quite clear. When did the wagon on Enomis start? With 2 days or 1 day left? Look at the reasons people used to jump on the Enomis wagon. I'm not debating this any more, I feel I have said everything I can about it.

I do have a scum-read on Jcozmo right now yes, I'm looking at Jcozmo because I also still believe Mala is scum. After yesterday's actions, I believe it is highly unlikely that Mala gets lynched today (especially as everybody seems to be miraculously town-reading her now), so, I feel like I have to settle for my second choice right now.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm struggling to keep up with the break-neck speed of this game. Can people stop posting as much please...

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Point being: something happened at night, and I'm leaning scum QT interactions.

Everybody joined the enomis initially for a simple reason: They thought Mala was town, they didn't like enomis. That's basically why I hopped on, why Shinobi hopped on, and obviously why Mala hopped on. I don't see how you've drawn the conclusion this was scumdriven, paniclynch or not. You and Jcoz on the other hand, decided to stay OFF enomis, and I think you knew pretty damn well the Mala wagon wasn't going to be taking off. Why didn't you hop on enomis? Scared you would attract attention for voting someone you announced to be a townread?

People didn't like Enomis? It's like you're making things up. I've already done a post showing that the Enomis wagon was weak, really weak. Hell, even Mala is suspicious of everyone suddenly town-reading her.

For the third, and very final time, I suggest you ISO me. I've already stated numerous times why I wanted Mala's lynch and I've already stated numerous times why I have drawn the conclusion that the wagon was scum-driven. You're asking questions that have already been answered (more than once) in this game.

Mora has been unusually quiet D2. After admitting his end of D1 play wasn't great I kind of expected him to try and remedy that by having a good D2, and it hasn't quite happened yet. I'm assuming he is keeping up with the thread, but just not posting. Strange.

Mala's play hasn't exactly improved either.

Shinobi hasn't got anything to say

Jcozmo is taking a very long time to present his cases

MM is actually posting...just not a lot of content.

@Shinobi - What do you think of other people's reasoning for jumping on the Enomis wagon?

@Mora - How are you reading Jcozmo right now? Did you do the following? If you did, what are your thoughts on it?

I'm going to go look at who was on these wagons.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Here is where I feel we are right now.

I think everyone who was on the Enomis wagon knows they made a bad move by jumping on. But, I think they may find it difficult to question other people's motives for joining that wagon, because they don't have good reasons for joining the wagon themselves, which is essentially taking 4 people out of the game.

Not one person is questioning anybody else over the Enomis wagon, I find this very strange. Unless of course, two scum jumped on the wagon and are just keeping their heads down. They obviously wouldn't want a discussion to ensue.

Is anybody worried that we may be heading for the exact same situation at the end of D2? Leaving us in this very same position again for D3?

Somebody show me that you're town. Somebody show me that you're looking for a scum-lynch today. Somebody show me that they actually give a shit whether town wins this game or not.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

UNVOTE

VTNL

, don't have

CONCLUSIVE

evidence of anyone being scum.

I don't think you will get 'conclusive' evidence, unless anyone would like to admit being scum?

You need to look through everybody's posts, see if there are things you don't like or don't agree with, and question that person/people. You didn't use your vote in D1 and it's looking likely that you're not going to use your vote on D2. You're confirmed town due to your cop-claim, we need your thoughts, your questions and more importantly, your vote.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

@BBT

I think that the only reason anyone is questioning anyone's reasoning on the enomis wagon is because he was town. If he had flipped scum, everyone would be patting themselves on the back because they lynched scum day 1. The reality of it was that enomis didn't really have any good reasoning for any of his scumreads; that's why I voted him, and I'm pretty sure that's why Xayzeck voted him.

The only person I really have an issue with on that wagon was Mora. Mora had Mala and I as his prime scumreads, and then proceeded to vote with us on the enomis lynch.

Why would you sheep your scumreads ever?

I think that Xayzeck really hit a nail on the head by pointing out that he was rolefishing, because that was something that I didn't catch. His actions simply do not make sense from a town perspective, because town doesn't sheep their scumreads. (Then there's also the confidence that he was going to see day 2. That's a little disconcerting for me, but maybe I'm making a mountain out of a molehill.)

I think that Jcozmo messed up pretty badly by not being on the lynch. I still think that Mala vs eno was a town versus town cross, and I think that Jcozmo just fucked off completely because neither him nor his scumbuddy had their necks on the line. Obviously enomis was a bad lynch, but Jcozmo simply didn't take part in either of the lynches without trying to propose an alternative. Why would he bother? He was safe for the day, so why bother ruining a good thing?

Answer: because he is scum.

The only reason I won't vote for him yet is because I'm not sure if he's at L-2 or L-1. I really wish we had a vote count.

It's more than likely that town get lynched D1 just down to the odds of 7:2. That doesn't mean we should just forget about the wagon though.

I agree that Mora looks pretty bad for his actions, but I'm still finding it difficult to read him and at this present time I'm leaning town on him. It feels like you and Mora kind of have an OMGUS thing going on right now, not really sure what to make of it yet.

I agree that Jcozmo isn't looking too good right now either, he still hasn't provided his cases that I asked for on you and Mala, I'm not sure what's taking him so long.

I'm pretty sure he is at L-2. There are 7 of us alive, so it would take 4 votes for a lynch. I believe only Mala and myself have voted for Jcozmo. This would put him at L-2, right?

Mora and MM unvoted, I don't believe Xayzeck has voted and you obviously haven't voted either.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

2) Everyone in the game arguably has Jcozmo in their bottom 2. No defenders. No one with anything close to a townread. So if he's town, scum is just fine with that vote. If he's scum, he's getting bussed.

Are you happy to vote for Jcozmo? If not, why not? If so, why?

Mala is only being scumread by BBT, who wants to lynch for information (which is far and away worthless in the grand scheme of things) making that another silly scumread. That's #4.

OK, this is not my

only

reason for voting Mala, I thought this had been made clear. That was

one

of the

additional

reasons that made me happy with my vote. I voted for Mala much earlier in D1 and gave my reasons for doing so. I believe I started to give my reasons/build a case on Mala at post #261. It looks like those reasons are beginning to become applicable for her D2 play as well. How is she being allowed to just float by with no questioning or suspicion?

And also I'm pretty sure MM tried to vote you at one point. So you can just move yourself to the bottom of his list as well.

I think he has probably used MM's coded list of his reads.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I await your cases on Mala and Shinobi, Jcozmo.

I may have this by today, maybe tomorrow. Depends how today goes work-wise. But I will have that at some point, not for you, but to come to an initial conclusion about my own D2 vote.

@Mod - Has Jcozmo been prodded? Last post was 5 days ago.

I'm still awaiting these cases Jcozmo.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

K. Sorry about my inactivity. Just I feel I got the game figured out so it's more me waiting on flips before anything else to see if my theory is right

Wow...I mean...it's just...what???

I am so, so glad you managed to save yourself on D1. Your contribution on D2 has been absolutely outstanding, I'm not sure how we would have won this game without your contributions. You were right, you do have a bad D1 but oh my, our D2 has been nothing short of stupendously outstanding. /sarcasm

I will also have the game sorted after a few flips as well. In fact, I'm going to stick my neck on the line here, and say that EVERYONE would have this game sorted out after a few flips. I can't believe you actually just posted that after all your inactivity.

So, here we are. An awful, awful, awful (not sure whether 3rd awful is warranted, probably is though) D1 from you, and D2 might actually be even worse.

Can anybody who is town-reading Mala please explain to me how they are doing so?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mala

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Is this the reads list you keep referring to?

Alrighty:

So I'm left with the following:

T->S

MM, Mora, Shin, BBT, Xayz, Jcoz

Is this also the same 'randomized' reads list we should be following?

Lynch me, but don't forget what I have said in terms of reads after I'm gone, please.

(Also to WIFOM scum I have randomized my town list to avoid them knowing whom I believe is doc.)

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yes scum is in {BBT. Xayz and Jcom}

OK can you elaborate, clearly and concisely, on why you're scum-reading these three players? What are your reasons? How have your reads developed from D1 to D2?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Jcomz's timing to leave felt odd like he was scum that had no where to go and fled.
Rest are actually PoE since I'm town reading the other players.


I also gave te mod a list of names in case he's having trouble finding replacements. Can't tell if its because he's VLA or just no one is biting.

OK, I'll ask a similar question.

Why are you town-reading the other players? What specifically about each player makes you think they are town? Don't bother with MM for obvious reasons.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

They are either gut, I have seen town motivation in their posts. I don't like explaining why I got my townreads but I can say I do have them. You are my lowest town read and PoE possibly scum townread. This day phrase I have seen things that make you likely town, but you aren't as strong as shin or mora.

OK, they are certainly interesting responses and I would like to know what other people think about this.

Just to clarify, you're essentially asking people to blindly follow your reads whilst you provide no reasoning whatsoever for said reads?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

BBT’s posts in the thread gave me a lot of flash-backs to another newer player CityElectric ISO in Newbie 1259 that I’d misread as town when she was scum (Thankfully PoE caught her at the end), it's rather hard to explain but BBT's play here on the surface level looks like active scumhunting but a few things about it don't entirely right with me, largely 1) His interaction with Mora and 2) His lack of interaction with Xay, he's had long conversations and interactions with everyone else but with Xay he's largely ignored him and 3) The

"I had you down as town after your simple post "I'm not mafia"

in Post 147 largely because he never mentioned it at the time and because he stretches that in Post 168 by stating

"As soon as he posted "I'm not Mafia", it was obvious he was town."

I do like Post 677 though, everything in it reads town as does Post 862 and his push for people to fulfill promised obligations and post reads and thoughts comes across as town.

Couple of things.

1. What about my interactions with Mora didn't you like? You seem to write in a lot of detail yet you casually throw this comment out with nothing else to accompany it. Elaborate?

2. Would you say I was particularly interactive with Wolfy? How about Enomis? (much shorter time for interactions granted). The fact is, I have always had my sights on someone else, bigger fish to fry blah blah. In fact, I'm about to slightly contradict myself here, but considering that I have had Mala as a scum-read for quite some time, I have hardly interacted with her either (majority of it being on D2, and this being due to her inactivity). What do you make of this? I agree that the majority of my interactions have been with Mora and Shinobi (the other two most active players I might add), but I'm not sure what your point is?

3. I don't even know what to say to this. Am I supposed to provide updates the moment my read on somebody changes/develops? What about the fact I didn't state my updated read straight away are you not happy with?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Forgot to add in this to my first post...

Got around to reading through Malas ISO, I don’t agree with the “Slip” that Mala thought she saw in Xazys post but the way she went about it in Post 72 and Post 76 looks like she genuinely believed one might be there which comes across as town. I really dislike the logic used in Post 214 of “One must be scum”

(1)

but I'm reading it as something she does as both alignments and think it's probably a null tell. The meta attempt on Enomis

(2)

in Post 402 despite being incorrect comes across as town and a genuine attempt at scumhunting and solving the game. The whole push on people reading her meta to have the meta be bullshit given the recently completed scum game of hers is skeevy but I’m not convinced that it makes her mafia, just someone that doesn’t know how to defend themselves as either alignment without falling back on meta (Whether the meta is true or not) and I know I should be reading posts like Post 512 and Post 626 as a genuine reaction to being lynched but I just don't even want to get into reading crap like that. I do however agree with majority of her reads and her Post 856 and Post 865 is something I have doubts about scum posting; I doubt they'd want it known that they have an idea on the doc, instead they'd just push who they thought was doc to make sure.

So overall I'm leaning town on Mala which if anything just makes me more confident in Xayzech being mafia. Also it's worth noting that Xay has been online since my case on him but didn't come in and post here which I find is what scum do; they hope that someone else defends them before they have to come do it themselves.

(1) I know she'll insist that it's a legitimate way to scumhunt but I can't stress enough how it's not, you should never be pushing the "There's 1 scum in X/Y" bar a counterclaim situation; doing so and finding out that both are town at the end generally means you've helped scum push 2 MLs.

(2) You're going to find a lot of players believe they know how to use meta and meta read people, you're also going to find that they're wrong significantly often and when they're wrong it costs town the game. I suggest you avoid using meta and depending on meta arguments unless 1) It's very detailed motivation analysis using past meta or 2) The player that's using the meta has a high accuracy rate reading the player they're using meta on. Don't rely on superficial meta like "X is happy and is happy as scum/town therefore he's scum/town" it's rubbish.

PEdit:: Mora, will get to your post in a few minutes.

1. Why are you reading her 'One must be scum' scenario as something she does as both alignments? What do you know about Mala that would suggest this to be true?

2. 'Her meta is a genuine attempt at scum-hunting'. Umm, do you think Enomis was a good choice for an easy lynch? What do you make of the Enomis wagon and the reasons people had for being on the wagon?

3. You disregard something that points towards her actually being mafia through her lying about her meta when trying to defend herself. Explain why you're disregarding it. I'm not buying that an IC 'doesn't know how to defend herself'

4. Of course scum would post that they have an idea on the doc, protects them from being lynched and buys themselves an extra day. That seems an absurd thing for a townie to post.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

BBT, re; Post 916

1) There's a degree of snarkiness I guess you could say that you have towards Mora that is unnerving and there's also places where it looks like you're subtly trying to shift suspicion on him or de-credit him for instance in Post 393 you seem to take issue with Mora unvoting and taking time to think something through (Which is actually a good thing and a town tell) but you try and put it in the opposite light.

2) Look at it from where my heads at right now; I think (Heck I'm pretty confident) that Xay is mafia and therefore your avoidance of her is reading and coming across as someone that wanted to minimise the focus on their scum partner. And I do think you've interacted with Mala and Wolfy more than Xay, this very post of yours though is fantastic example of what I'm talking about; you haven't commented on my case on Xay whatsoever - and that's something I really do want you to comment on.

3) Given that you eventually state that you read MM's post as "Obvious town" yes I would expect you to mention that at the time; the idea is to constantly share thoughts you have that you're decently confident in since it allows others to A) Get a stronger read on you by understanding your thought process and B) Allows others to look at the read itself and see if they agree or disagree with it. The whole thing looks like you exaggerating the strength that you were reading MM's post as town admittedly though it's not the strongest scum tell and not really worth harping on.

Re; Post 918

1) I remember her using it as town in past in a game I followed of hers (I can't remember which game but it's enough to suggest that she thinks it's the right way to play and therefore would do such as both alignments making it a null tell).

2) I think the fact that she took time to look elsewhere to try and garner a read on Enomis given that she'd disliked his introduction posts is a town-tell, that doesn't change even though he's flipped town. I think there were some skeevy votes on Enomis and I don't think Mala was one of them - I'll go into this later though.

3) I've found that players that attempt to defend themselves as meta with town are forced to do so as scum (If they don't then they're essentially claiming as scum) that means that the use of meta to begin with isn't a scum tell and I don't disbelieve that her play in Wicked was above her usual scum game level so I can sort of see the situation she's put herself in and can see her being put into it as both alignments.

4) Someone claiming they have an idea who the doc is doesn't prevent themselves from being lynched in the slightest and it is a naturalish thing for town to post, it influences their process of elimination reads.

Of course I felt Mora's unvote was strange, so did other people if I remember correctly. It felt like he was bussing his scum partner, the lynch actually looked like it could happen, and he jumped off. Then he jumped back on not very long later (so hardly time to think), I found this weird and confusing. I'm not sure how you don't.

I'm always trying to shift suspicion and de-credit everybody in the game. I'm looking for scum, this is how I do it. Are you suggesting I have only done this to Mora in the entire game?

I definitely did not interact with Wolfy more than Xayzeck, I'm almost 100% sure of that. Like I said, my focus has been elsewhere. When I feel Xayzeck is my strongest scum-read, I will go after him. Until then, I will continue chasing my strongest scum-reads.

You want me to comment on your Xayzeck case...but you think Xayzeck is hanging around waiting for somebody to defend him. What do you want me to do, only post if I agree with what you're saying? I like to see how a discussion plays out before I add my 2 cents, unless I am already involved or started it.

I feel I have contributed a lot to this game, I also feel I have been very open and frequently posted my reads on people throughout the game (albeit not

immediately

after my read has changed/developed). Are you trying to suggest I have done the opposite with this 'MM is town' point? I agree that's it not worth harping on about but the fact you're not happy with that has annoyed me as it seems to go against the grain from the rest of my play.

She took the time to dig on Enomis because she was trying to save her life. Both town and scum would do this, I disagree that it's a town-tell.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

BBT, this is growing into a slightly pointless back and forth so I'll try and summarise; 1) I'm reading Mora as pretty blatantly town (I'll eat a hat if I'm wrong) but all of his actions, all his reads, all his explanations add up and make a lot of sense, there's a lot of town motivation behind them and it all comes across as genuine so yes, I do find it strange that people do/did find his actions to be suspicious and I definitely think you focused more on Mora than anyone else in the room. 2) It's the lack of..anything with Xay you've put him on the backburner and that's how I see scum treat partners so surely you can see why I'd be suspicious of that given I think Xay is mafia here, we're not really going to resolve that at any point and I'm not interested in lynching you before Xay so we can table that to a later date. 3) I would like your analysis on my case on Xay, I don't care if that helps him lurk because ultimately he's not going to be able to lurk out of this; I'm pretty adamant about lynching him. 4) All I'm trying to suggest is that I wish you did state your MM town read when you got it and you should always post your reads

when you get them

, holding of only helps scum and gives scum players to hide inside of.

Pedit: Xay, you're seriously trying to argue that there's a big difference between 2nd most likely person to be scum in the room and your 2nd scum read and you seem to think that makes up for all the contradictions you have in your reads about him. And actually, the quotes/links are all accurate but again continue ignoring the 2 paragraphs.

OK, I'll address a couple of things and try to keep it short.

For some reason, I have struggled to read Mora since the beginning of the game. Anything that pings my interest on him, I focus on it.

I do agree I have hardly interacted with Xayzeck, I do feel however that I have questioned him whenever I felt it was relevant.

I will provide my analysis at a later point. Partly because I want to see how it plays out between the two of you, and partly because it actually looks like you have presented a solid case and I would like to look at it in detail (which I can't do right now as I'm about to head out for a couple of hours) and not just provide a flippant comment or something that isn't of much use to anyone

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I do agree I have hardly interacted with Xayzeck, I do feel however that I have questioned him whenever I felt it was relevant.

Is it relevant now?

I will provide my analysis at a later point.

Without questioning him?

It will be if Xayzeck continues to defend himself so poorly.

Regfan asked me to comment on his case on Xayzeck, why would I need to question Xayzeck to do this?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm baffled by the fact that Xayzeck wasn't lynched D1, he’s quite probably one of the strongest scum reads I've had in any game in a long time; so much scum motivation behind all of his actions and so many contradictions in his posts.

1) Moras Post 29 brought up a fantastic point; there's a disconnect between Xays town play and his play here. Xays reaction in Post 30 was an attempt to deflect the attention elsewhere and is worsened by the fact that in Post 31 he states he intentionally did an anti-town action to be questioned about it; reads as scum fabricating an excuse under pressure. In Post 41 he's stating that he doesn't believe those votes are scum tells but is still pushing Selfie as scum for the action which doesn't mesh in the slightest. So Xay is essentially claiming 1) His town meta/theory changed from his last game to this game, 2) That he intentionally acted in an anti-town manner to get FoS'ed for it 3) That he doesn't believe that those L-2, L-1 votes are scum tells just anti-town but Selfie is scum for putting someone at L-1.

2) Xays reads in Post 109 and Post 160 don’t mesh, his explanation of part of it in Post 307 is beyond dreadful; suggesting that you’re happy and want to lynch a town read makes zero sense. Reads list in Post 326 is equally as bad and contradicts his Post 327 given that his reads should point towards thatguy being very likely PoE scum. There’s also the fact that in Post 445, Post 454 and Post 538 he has Mala as town but throws her into “nullundecided” in Post 539, it looks like trying it might be setting up to get town cred upon a town flip without actually fully preventing it from happening. In Post 634 Xay states scum are Enomis and Wolfy, Enomis is lynched D1 and flips town, Wolfy is NKed N1 and flips town yet in Post 726 she says

“Wolfy wasn't going to get mislynched anytime soon”

which doesn't at all fit with him having Wolfy as scum; there’s also zero reaction from the flip or the lynch from him.

Really overall I don't see any thought process of his that is genuine, none of the reads match his prior thoughts or his actions. All his movements and stances taken read as an attempt to fit in for instance the read change on Mora today, the Enomis vote, the Jcoz vote. Really there's no original content from him just a whole lot of fluff, filler and attempt of staying out of the limelight which is all scum motivated.

Vote: Xayzeck

Also Mora is ObvTown, I'd be shocked if he's scum here (I can explain this read if needed later), I also think Shin is Town but not to the same degree (Again can explain later if needed); everyone else I want to ISO tonight, then I'll let you know on them.

Alright, let's have a look.

Spoiler: Use a spoiler= tag next time

I think by now it's pretty clear that whenever Xayzeck is questioned he is pretty bad at defending himself. Is this alignment indicative? Not at all.

The first thing I am going to say is that any meta bullshit will not be read. I would imagine that people's games develop all the time, constantly changing and reacting to how other games have played out. I don't rate meta as an effective scum-hunting tool at all.

He contradicts himself early on regarding all the voting. I don't believe for one second that he meant to act anti-town to get FoS, I think it was a genuine mistake. I just don't know whether it was a town mistake or a scum mistake. How can that be deciphered? I'm also not sure why he jumped on the L-1 vote because this again looked like a genuine mistake from Selfie as he retracted it once he noticed what he had done. This actually comes across as opportunistic scum looking for an early lynch.

His defence of Mala was strange. He kept himself out of the limelight whilst making sure he made clear that he did not think Mala was scum but also didn't put a huge amount of effort into defending her either, a la Shinobi. If he is scum, he would obviously know Mala's alignment and if she flipped town, it could have been an attempt to gain some town cred. That would make sense. It would also make sense if he was town and he genuinely didn't read Mala as scum and was trying to keep someone alive who he had town-read. I don't know how much effort he would make as either alignment though.

I don't make anything of the 'Wolfy wasn't going to get mislynched' comment at all. I am reading Mala as scum, I am also pretty sure that her lynch won't be happening as I pointed out at the start of D2. So, if she was lynched and she did happen to flip town, I could quite as easily provide the same type of comment. If he thinks that nobody would have got on a Wolfy wagon, it's a fair comment IMO.

If I remember correctly, there wasn't much of a reaction from anyone after the Wolfy kill because of this WIFOM shit people keep throwing around. I think me and Xayzeck had the longest discussion regarding the NK of Wolfy, nobody else really contributed.

The one thing that really stands out for me from Xayzeck is his voting pattern. Because of his 'I don't do cases' stance, it makes it difficult to understand his voting. He uses everybody else's work when he votes somebody. It's very rarely (if at all) based off of his own reads/reasons (hence my questioning of his jumping on the Enomis wagon) If he is town, if he doesn't do cases all he can do is judge other people's reasoning and decide whether he agrees with it or not, and then vote. However, this is also a very opportunistic approach if he is scum, as it involves no leg-work or drawing of attention. I'm not really sure which way I am leaning on this.

Overall, I would agree that Xayzeck acted scummy in a lot of spots during D1, however I feel his play towards the end of D1 and for D2 has come across as pretty towny. The problem here is I feel that his poor defence/reasoning throughout the game is a big contribution to this read and maybe overshadowing anything that comes across as towny from him.

One of the biggest drawbacks for me on Xayzeck being scum is that I don't see a Mala/Xayzeck team, that doesn't seem to fit. So, I am mis-reading one of them. I have felt Mala is scum for quite some time, and I still haven't changed my mind.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

By the way, if I take out all characterizations and boil down each of the above BBT paragraphs to their true core essence:

- Defense is not relevant
- Meta is not relevant
- Xayzeck made a mistake
- Wifom (scumplay makes sense, townplay makes sense)
- Comment is not relevant
- No one else is contributing.
- I'm on the fence about his voting.
- He's scummy. He's pretty towny.
- I am misreading someone.

Bulk hedging isn't helpful. I have no clue how you feel about Xayzeck right now.

Wow, what a fantastic effort in trying to mis-represent everything I have said. Why would you do that?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

By the way, if I take out all characterizations and boil down each of the above BBT paragraphs to their true core essence:

- Defense is not relevant
- Meta is not relevant
- Xayzeck made a mistake
- Wifom (scumplay makes sense, townplay makes sense)
- Comment is not relevant
- No one else is contributing.
- I'm on the fence about his voting.
- He's scummy. He's pretty towny.
- I am misreading someone.

Bulk hedging isn't helpful. I have no clue how you feel about Xayzeck right now.

1) His inability to defend himself isn't indicative of his alignment, therefore not relevant.
2) You won't read anything to do with meta, it's a non-starter, therefore not relevant.
3) You think he made a genuine mistake, but can't characterize it as a scum or town mistake.
4) You give a reason why scumplay makes sense, then a reason why townplay makes sense.
5) You don't make anything of the Wolfy comment, therefore not relevant.
6) You state that "nobody else really contributed".
7) Re: voting, "I'm not sure which way I'm leaning on this".
8) You state that he is scummy, and you state that he is towny.
9) You state that you must be misreading someone.

What in the world did I write anywhere in there that misrepresents what you said, it's literally what you said!

Firstly, by taking out all of my reasoning for why I said what I said, it completely discredits my post.

1) This sounds much better than the first time you stated it. Do you disagree with my original point?
2) Meta is bullshit. Do you disagree? Do you think people play the exact same way depending on their alignment?
3) Correct.
4) I should mention here that you forgot to mention the part where I stated Xayzeck acted scummy, but hey, let's just pretend I didn't for a second. Correct, I am trying to provide all of my thoughts/reasoning
5) Is relevant. I'm making the point that I could quite easily see myself making the same comment on the Mala situation. Therefore, it's not scummy.
6) Ah there we go. Second time around is past tense, first time is present tense. That could have been confusing.
7) Correct. I can understand him taking this approach as either alignment if this is his playstyle.
8) Important parts. Don't forget time. Time is important. Things change over time, he came across as scummy D1, late D1 and D2 he has come across as towny. I see nothing wrong with this.
9) Correct.

Tut, tut. Naughty Mora.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm not saying your points 1, 2, and 5 are irrelevant, I'm saying you are saying that.

So you agree with my characterizations of points 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7 and 9.

You think point 5 is a semantic distinction on relevance.

You think point 8 he went from scum to town, but at the end of point 8 you say "maybe overshadowing anything that comes across as towny from him.".

HOW THE HELL AM I SUPPOSED TO GET ANY CLUE WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT XAYZECK FROM THIS. YOU ARE VERBAL SWITZERLAND. MORE CAPITAL LETTERS HERE.

Well I hope the 'irrelevance' is clarified for you now.

You still haven't mentioned that you forgot to put in the part where I said Xayzeck acted scummy. It would appear that you filtered that post pretty hard, quite surprised you 'missed' that part.

I don't even understand your sentence regarding point 5. I thought I was reading a foreign language for a second. Simpler terms please?

Umm, can you answer my questions please from point 1 and 2 I believe?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

HEY MAN, I CAN WRITE IN CAPS AS WELL. THIS IS SO FUCKING COOL!!

Anyway, you STILL haven't addressed my questions. Focus, I know you can do it.

You 'forgot' a pretty important part man, it's quite a big deal. You're looking for definitive answers, I gave you one, you ignored it. Wassup with that?

There is something going on right now. Am gonna figure it out.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Do you disagree with my original point?
Do you disagree?
Do you think people play the exact same way depending on their alignment?

Yes? No? 12? Is Xayzeck town or scum to you? There's no townie reason for you not to respond to this post with "Here's why I think Xayzeck is <town/scum>. Reason 1. Reason 2". This isn't even like "Oh, I guess BBT isn't sure what his opinion of Xayzeck is at this point", it smells of purposeful obfuscation, ask any ten people to ISO you and you'll get 11 different answers on what your opinion of Xayzeck is. That shouldn't be the case.

You seem unwilling to answer questions. That's not very town-like, is it?

I provided my thoughts on Regfan's case on Xayzeck, I won't deviate from that because that's what I think. If I had to do the same for you, it would look very much the same but for very different reasons.

The only people I am definitively reading are;

Regfan - Obvious
Mala - Scum
Shinobi - Town

That's it. Everyone else is up in the air.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

My point, hopefully clear, is that your expressed thoughts on Regfan's case perpetuate a view of your play as high-volume, but

low-content

, which is scummy.

That actually made me laugh. Well done.

This entire back-and-forth reminds me of the time that I had to pry BBT's reads out of him.

Meaning what?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

My point, hopefully clear, is that your expressed thoughts on Regfan's case perpetuate a view of your play as high-volume, but

low-content

, which is scummy.

That actually made me laugh. Well done.

This entire back-and-forth reminds me of the time that I had to pry BBT's reads out of him.

Meaning what?

You're being hard to work with for no reason.

And I really don't like the fact that you just tried to shed some doubt on Mora.

I don't feel like it was for no reason, I feel I have stated my viewpoint, my reasoning, my thoughts and where I stand and I can't do any more than that.

I have been trying to shed doubt on Mora all game. As with most other people. If you're not doing the same, you're playing the game wrong. Unless you know who scum is of course? (No, this is not me indicating that you could be scum, this is me being sarcastic)

Are you stating that Mora is a nailed-on town-read?

Out of interest, who is town-reading Mora right now?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Where was you read on meta when the Enomis lynch or when my wagon appeared because i 'lied' about my meta. I use meta as a scum-hunting tools. it might not be always right, but hell it's a decent influence on a read.

This feels like you're clutching at straws for something that isn't there, but whatever, I'll answer anyway.

I didn't agree with the Enomis lynch full stop. I believe I also called out everyone's reasons for voting Enomis as weak. See the following posts where I actually ask how the hell your weak case managed to take off and cause an Enomis lynch and question everyone else's motives.

Spoiler:

UNVOTE: Wolfy
VOTE: Mala

Hopefully I'll see you all day 2.

Shinobi was Mala's L-1. That line at the end of his post is almost certainly a town-tell. He is ready for Mala to be lynched and to move into D2.

That's it? That's all it took and you're done with Wolfy? That post probably took you a hell of a lot of effort to put together, scrounging up quotes and such, and you're willing to just throw it away on the basis of me saying booga booga me no likey?

Unvote

I need to think.

OK that makes me feel better.

vote: malakittens

Then you [Mora] started acting all scummy and shit. You caused Shinobi to change his vote and doubt himself as shown in the following quote. He feels he has made a mistake in dropping his read so quickly and tries to backtrack.

I'm not done with Wolfy. He isn't going to die tonight because he's either scum or a mislynch waiting to happen. The issue is that I felt really good about it when I made it and I think I psyched myself out after I posted it and I got such poor responses. Besides, it's not like my case is going to disappear if I die or something.

UNVOTE: Mala

Answer BBT's question please.

Here is the initial case that Mala presented on Enomis. I had to cut out a lot of this post because for some reason the spoilers were messing up my post when I was previewing (so please do check the post out, I wouldn't want to be accused of misrepresenting information). But this was the case that Mala presented on Enomis. Can anybody explain to me how this took off and we ended up with a mislynch? That would be great.

Alright took a quick skim of Enomis' games that he has replaced into. Some games were eaten by the crash in addition to the ones that he has replaced into has been all town. He hasn't replaced into one scum slot so I do not have meta to base off behaviors on how'd he act replacing into a scum slot.

The four town slots are different from his replacement in this game. He actually explained his reads rather than replacing in and saying x&y are town, which leaves z, q and d as scum possibilities.

The only huge difference between one of the town games was this:

His second/third post was:

Gambino/Wilma slot is town.

Seriously, like Gambino slot is fking town. I don't understand how you guys read her as scum.

Suspicion on that slot stays still as I'm convinced that his reads aren't genuine. I don't like his approach into the game:

I'm going to VOTE: Enomis

Spoiler:

Here are people's reasons for jumping on the Enomis wagon.

If I really wanted to lynch someone, it would be enomis:

Also guys wicked just ended last night. My posts yesterday about meta were during the day. I won't a) talk about ongoing games b) comprise the game by saying 'oh yeah btw I have recently destroyed my scum meta by manipulating a game!' When it's not finished.

I worked my ass off in wicked to get where I was there and wasn't jereopadizing it here even though I was self meta'ing.

Ermm, No look here. Shouldn't your thoughts be:" Oh no, i am being being accused to being scum. Lets use my meta of me being inactive as scum as a defense. But i have an ongoing game where i am scum and i am active. Therefore I should not

LIE

to town here by using my meta as my defense since that is going to be not true. I should prolly use some other method."

The above is maybe what town mala would have thought?

I am satisfied with my vote.

Someone hammer please.

This post

reeks

of storyline lynch. Lying isn't a great move, by any circumstance, but enomis is using lying as his main reason for pushing this lynch. I've already stated that lying is null at best, but for a player like enomis who has been here for 2 years, it sounds like a copout.

And then there's the fact that he admits that she might be town, and then asks someone to hammer anyway. Because...That's why you lynch people, I guess? Because you think they could be town? It's a shit reason for lynching someone, and I don't like it.

VOTE: enomis

I...think I covered everything regarding the way that I feel right now.

At least Shinobi has attempted to make a case. But it basically boils down to Enomis sees lying as a scum-tell, Shinobi doesn't, and Shinobi dislikes that Enomis thought Mala could be town but wanted to lynch her anyway.

(hey, look, enomis L-1 two seperate people this game)

Mora's reasoning is...well...that he placed an L-1 vote and so did his predecessor. Hmm.

townreading BBT, Shinobi, Mora, MM

nulltown on you

Wolfy and Mala i'm not sure of. I've got reasons to scumread and townread both of them, so I can't really decide

I'm scumreading enomis

Apparently, Xayzeck found Mala's case to be quite sufficient for Enomis' lynch without actually providing any reasons of his own.

Pretty solid reasoning for this lynch right? Wrong. What a pile of shit reasoning from everyone that was repsonsible for the Enomis lynch. Mala started it all off with her accusing of his entry into the game, and somehow Enomis ends up lynched.

That was some pretty good misdirection if I've ever seen it. Again, I think Mala should be applauded for her efforts.

I agreed with Enomis that it looks bad that you lied to everyone. I don't see what is wrong there either. I was happy for your lynch, I have been trying to get it since like mid D1 I believe? I couldn't care less what reasons other people come up with to lynch you, as long as you get lynched.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

6) BlueBloodedToffee

- I dislike BBT's "

nothing personal

" in his Post 59 where it feels like he is trying to downplay the significance of his vote and create less attention from it. I also don't agree with his take on Mora and his interactions with him on page 4. Post 82 in particular feels absurd as I found Mora obviously town from the first few pages as asking Xayzeck and Shinobi what they learned from each other in their past game has an obvious town motivation of generating discussion and helping develop reads based off of meta. Mora had also asked questions of several people (Wolfy, Mala, and Xayzeck) and tried to see where they were coming from and developing reads on them so saying that he hadn't provided anything himself feels incredibly stretchy and misrepresentation of the gamestate. I also dislike the tone of "Other than your chasing of Xayzeck, I don't think you have contributed anything else" in Post 81 as I found Mora's questioning of Xayzeck to be incredibly town, bringing the game out of RVS, and moving it forward. His Post 122 just felt odd and reactive. His Post 135 resonates with me and I like his calling out of Malakittens. I also like Post 171 where he points out that MM's "I'm not mafia" felt town and I thought the same thing and the I'll be killed N1 in Post 183 rang town as well. There are some things that make me lean town but I am not sure on this.

Pretty much your whole read on me boils down to Mora being town, and if you're town, you don't know if he's town or not. That's a weak read.

I couldn't care less what reasons other people come up with to lynch you, as long as you get lynched.

So you couldn't care less what reasons other people come up with to lynch Malakittens, but you care a lot about what reasons other people come up with to lynch Enomis.

Correct - Enomis was a town-read and a flash-wagon, a scum-driven flash-wagon I might add. Mala is scum, as long as she gets lynched I really don't care how it happens.

Do you see the difference?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

So, I'm re-reading the game and I come across this gem that I had completely forgotten about.

Today, I feel like Tyrion Lannister. Were I asked about Eno's death, it might sound something like this (show-spoiling) quote...

Spoiler:

"No, gods no. The world is a better place without him, but I had nothing to do with it. I would like to think, if I were arranging a royal assassination, I'd plan it in such a way that I wouldn't be standing there gawking like a fool when the king died."

I've played Day 1 rather poorly. Not because of the vote necessarily, which I convinced myself was correct. More significantly, I didn't properly forsee the consequences of Eno being town, and that will make me a great burden to town for as long as I remain alive.

Spoiler:

1) I've cast the L-1 vote to vote someone out on the basis of their L-1 votes.

2) I called out a False Dilemma ploy repeatedly, only to probably fall victim to one myself.

3) "Sheeping both my scumreads onto a different lynch"... it's worse than that, Enomis was probably 4th on my list.

=====

So here's a few things I need to address:

Spoiler:

- The vote on Enomis: I'll accept the endgame abuse if it turns out that Malakittens is scum, but for me, the combination of the posting of reads, anger towards my posting style when addressing her, and insane insistence to fall back on meta to explain absolutely everything about her play, even when prompted otherwise, twinged me as being a town response. No-lynch was fast approaching, so I decided Enomis's wagon had enough merit. I thought my reason (slot VCA behaviour) was better than the running theory from Shinobi (Inability to case Mala on anything but lying, which ended up ultimately wrong later in twilight), which was why I asked Eno about my earlier scumreasoning on Mala, but time was getting short. It probably didn't help my frame of mind that I was essentially having to decide between two vote targets with relatively equal camps, where players on both sides were saying "I can't believe you're voting for Player-I'm-Not-Voting, Player-I'm-Voting is obvious!", both apparently likely town.

- BBT's statement on why I only asked three people about my earlier Malascum reasoning is simply that for the first two (BBT and Shinobi), I was looking for contrasting responses, to understand which side (a Mala defender and a Mala... offender) made more sense. The third person, Enomis, I asked later to attempt to see if what Shinobi was saying (that Eno's case on Mala was purely about lying and nothing else substantial) made sense. I didn't want to go "Hey everybody, what do you think?", I was looking to solve specific questions I had about specific people.

- Who was perpetuating the Enomis vs Malakittens vote? Because if they are both town, it would be completely worth scum's time and energy to simply prolong that discussion innocently as we pushed towards deadline. (Note: Shinobi and I certainly did.)

- I believe I'm alive because scum will find it easy to put me up as a shield.

For somebody who felt sure they played D1 pretty badly, and was an easy D2 lynch, you have managed to get everyone(?) in the game to read you as town, except for me. I thought this may have been your intent and what may have happened when you posted it. Which is why I asked if you had done this to pre-empt any pressure/questioning, to which you replied with 'Hey, if you have any questions fire away' having already attempted an explanation for everything that could have been asked. I feel like this post has been overlooked by everyone.

I would like everyone's thoughts/opinions about this post and Mora's late D1 play.

For me, the strongest argument regarding a scumenomis is the double L-1's for Enomis's slot, i don't like the playout of his VCA. The shinobi-enomis conversation was just a big distraction for me, possibly as intended, possibly not.

I'd describe his last post as "non contraversial".

I would also like to see people's opinions/thoughts on his reason for voting Enomis.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Correct - Enomis was a town-read and a flash-wagon, a scum-driven flash-wagon I might add.

Mala is scum, as long as she gets lynched I really don't care how it happens.

So you have a lot of concern about the incorrectness of the Enomis wagon, how it was built, who was on it, etc...

But you have no concern about whether a vote on Malakittens is correct, and would accept votes of any kind or speed.

So either tunneled or scum?

Again, correct. Mala's meta bullshit, followed by a whole load of shit reasoning caused Enomis' lynch, I felt Enomis could have been a very useful player to town. I stated I was pissed at the time of his lynch/start of D2, nothing has changed.

If you don't like kittens, vote Mala.

I don't understand the last sentence either. What do you mean?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

For somebody who felt sure they played D1 pretty badly, and was an easy D2 lynch, you have managed to get everyone(?) in the game to read you as town, except for me. I thought this may have been your intent and what may have happened when you posted it. Which is why I asked if you had done this to pre-empt any pressure/questioning, to which you replied with 'Hey, if you have any questions fire away' having already attempted an explanation for everything that could have been asked. I feel like this post has been overlooked by everyone.

I like the part where I deviously asked for questions.

That you knew full well had already been answered/referred to. Yeah, pretty safe play if you ask me.

Is this the D2 you were expecting?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Again, correct. Mala's meta bullshit, followed by a whole load of shit reasoning caused Enomis' lynch, I felt Enomis could have been a very useful player to town. I stated I was pissed at the time of his lynch/start of D2, nothing has changed.

You've made it quite clear, you want to distance yourself from the Enomis wagon. We got it.

I hope so. I hope it's also quite clear that it was a bullshit wagon full of bullshit reasons.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

For somebody who felt sure they played D1 pretty badly, and was an easy D2 lynch, you have managed to get everyone(?) in the game to read you as town, except for me. I thought this may have been your intent and what may have happened when you posted it. Which is why I asked if you had done this to pre-empt any pressure/questioning, to which you replied with 'Hey, if you have any questions fire away' having already attempted an explanation for everything that could have been asked. I feel like this post has been overlooked by everyone.

I like the part where I deviously asked for questions.

That you knew full well had already been answered/referred to. Yeah, pretty safe play if you ask me.

I knew full well. That I had answered all questions. You're being serious right now.

You knew full well you had addressed all of the major issues that anybody would have asked about. Like I said, a pre-empt to anything that may have put you under pressure.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

BBT, you’re wrong on Mora. Really really wrong, I can cope with you pushing on Mala because while I think she’s town I’m not entirely sold on it but with Mora I’d be shocked if he’s scum here. I find the whole “I played badly D1” post of his that you’ve quoted to be understandable, when I mslynch someone I do come out admitting that I didn’t play it well the next day and the intention behind that isn’t to be “town-read” it’s to state a genuine fact.

What do you make of his reasoning for his Enomis vote?

Also, I'm a he. It's really confusing me reading your posts

PEdit - Mora, are you worried about being universally town-read?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

BBT, Mora is actually right, your entire analysis of Xay was very waffly and fencesitty (I don’t necessarily think it’s a scum-tell in this case at all in fact I’m leaning the opposite way with you right now but it’s something you shouldn’t be doing), you need to take a stance (1) and there’s a lot of things you’re ruling out as “non-alignment indicative” that are very clear alignment tells; for instance scum objectively are going to have more difficulty defending themselves than town will because towns actions and reads are genuine and therefore explainable whereas scum are forced and them bullshitting reads and stances.

I said two things were irrelevant; Xayzecks defending of himself and meta. I fully believe meta is useless as a scum-hunting tool against anyone with half a brain. Your point about scum finding it a bit more difficult to defend themselves actually makes sense though, given that a lot of they stuff they post will be lies and that is difficult to keep up for a whole game (unless you just don't post a lot and when you do it lacks a lot of content; points finger at Xayzeck and Mala).

Ah sorry BBT thought you were a she for some reason, will make sure I get that right from hereon out. I think Moras vote on Enomis is based of VCA stated in Post 542, Post 543, Post 546 as well as an attempt to pressure him to answer his questions, I see nothing scummy about it, I mean sure it's not based of the soundest of reasoning

but I can make that same statement for just about everyones vote on that wagon

and everyones not scum. Can you explain your town read on Shinobi in greater detail for me and take a look and answer Post 991 please.

Mora it would look something like this.

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding! We have a winner!! Do you believe both scum were on the wagon?

If you ISO me, you will see that I have stated numerous times why I town-read Shinobi, I have town-read him for quite some time.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding! We have a winner!! Do you believe both scum were on the wagon?

I think there's a decent chance both scum were on the wagon but given that 4 of the 6 unclear people alive were on the wagon that's not saying a whole lot? What I do think is important though is not locking your mindset into a "Both scum had to be on a wagon that was bad" because if it's plausible for one townie to be on it (And there is minimum 3 townies on that lynch) then it's plausible for everyone theoretically on it to be town. It's why I personally aren't a fan of VCA except in very specific instances such as scum lynches.

Agreed, that makes sense. I'm not convinced that both scum had to be on the wagon by any means, it was just an idea. It could quite as easily be just one scum on the wagon.

In Post 775 you state the only way you can see Shinobi as scum is if Mala is his partner - don't really agree with that, don't think it's impossible for Scum!Shinobi to defend Town!Mala but okay, Shinobi is by no means new to mafia he's been playing for a long long time over at epicmafia and one of the best ways to attain town cred would be white knighting a townie so I'm not ruling him out for that at all. Earlier than that though you expressed doubt on this read in Post 405 but really the only explanation of your read on him is back in Post 211 which is a long time ago. So if I'm missing a more recent explanation just link it to me otherwise can you let me know what your updated/current town read on him is based on please.

I'm town-reading Shinobi for his continued defence of Mala. I may be wrong, but I don't see a scum Shinobi defending a scum Mala in that way; although I believe it is more possible now than I did before, given that I thought he was new to this game when in actual fact, he has a lot of experience. I don't think a scum Shinobi defends anybody in this manner actually, going against the majority doesn't seem like a good idea if you're scum, especially when town were in such a desperate situation.

Spoiler: Why Shinobi is town

Before, I respond to anything else in this post, I'm just going to come out and say it:

We are lynching on day 1. That is going to happen. I'll strongarm a lynch if I have to, I'm just not entirely convinced that Mala is scum yet. The lying thing is suspicious (if she is actually lying, which I haven't even determined myself), but if she actually is mafia, then she would have no reason to lie with her back to the wall with me defending her the way I am.

And then there's the fact that I still need to go reread all the meta stuff that these two have been posting to see if I can find any discrepancies in what has been going on, and you can see why I'm a little hesitant to finalize my vote. If we don't have a focus target on the 26th, then I'm just gonna vote Mala because fuck it we need to lynch.

Furthermore, I'm going to move my vote around a lot. That's going to happen and you're going to have to accept it. I'm going to vote the people I think are scum at the end of the day, and I'm not particularly convinced on anyone as of right now. What, you want me to just tunnel every single player I get a slight scumread on? Because that's what you're essentially telling me to do.

I'll be back later, hopefully with findings and more opinions.

@Mala:
You seem completely active this game as scum. A most recently completed game. Like today.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=38067

I am hard pressed to find out the games where you got lynched, town/scum. I just seem to see you keep getting NKed or endgamed. Only found one game where you were town when you got lynched. I am lazy to search anymore so....

Oh for fuck's sake.

Mala, why the hell did you do that?

Vote Count Analysis

We get it. I flip-flopped a lot on this lynch. You didn't need a graph to tell us. I'm still not convinced that Mala is scum, but her last statement is going to lead to her getting lynched no matter what.

MM, do me a favor and check me so I don't get lynched tomorrow if she flips scum.

Mala just towntold. Not near a computer right now but this lynch is wrong.

Will explain when I get the chance.

So here's what I think of the Mala lynch:

I stand by the fact that the initial reasons for scumreading her are bad. You can talk about meta all you want, but that doesn't really cover the fact that lying in this situation is null to the point of being silly. Was I defending her when she supposedly "lied?" I think other players are picking at that logic way harder than needed. The bottom line is that if Mala dies at any point and flips scum, I'm going to be in a shitload of trouble because "hesitating" or "defending" or however you want to talk about it. I, however, just don't see her flipping scum at this point.

First, let's take a look at her defense. She already tried to defend herself using meta, which has been picked apart because she lied. Let's assume for a second that she did. Why does lying make her scum in this case? More importantly, why would she lie about

meta

of all things? Meta is such an unbelievably hard thing to lie about, especially when anyone doing the research could disprove it if they really wanted to.

Just lynch me. Wicked helped me gain confident that I'm not gonna be totally fucked by meta when I'm scum. I'm done being lynched every single time as either alignment. Wicked was my stepping stone. My scum play went south when I rolled scum 8-9 times in a row with two town games in between. I created evil regals because I needed a break from everyone knowing my meta and I wanted a fresh start.

My lynch is inevitable right now. If its not now it will be in the future. I'm a distraction; town thinks I'm scummy; scum sees me as a easy lynch.

I derp'd. I forgot the setup, I didn't have astounding reads.

So lynch me. I'm at L-1 and I'm a VT.

Reads as follows:

Town:

Mm
Eco (that guy)
Shin

Null-Leaning town:

Mora

Null-leaning scum:

Xayz

Scum:

{BBT/Wolfy}
Enomis

We're going to ignore all the AtE, because it's useless. Martyrs, as a general rule, are usually town because town players don't have the same kind of attachment to their games as scum players do. Scum martyrs most certainly don't sit here giving us reads all the way to the end. The concept of giving her reads when facing the bullets is such a pro-town move that I want to call this one of the towniest posts in the game for that exact reason. Scum's job when getting lynched is to deny information. Mala is most certainly not denying information.

Even assuming that she lied, there's simply no way for us to sit here and say "yeah she's 100% scum" because of it. Lying could be a townslip, or a scumslip, and you have absolutely no way of knowing what the difference is. But that point is mostly irrelevant, because Mala wouldn't sit here and give us information regarding her reads if she were scum in the first place.

If I really wanted to lynch someone, it would be enomis:

Also guys wicked just ended last night. My posts yesterday about meta were during the day. I won't a) talk about ongoing games b) comprise the game by saying 'oh yeah btw I have recently destroyed my scum meta by manipulating a game!' When it's not finished.

I worked my ass off in wicked to get where I was there and wasn't jereopadizing it here even though I was self meta'ing.

Ermm, No look here. Shouldn't your thoughts be:" Oh no, i am being being accused to being scum. Lets use my meta of me being inactive as scum as a defense. But i have an ongoing game where i am scum and i am active. Therefore I should not

LIE

to town here by using my meta as my defense since that is going to be not true. I should prolly use some other method."

The above is maybe what town mala would have thought?

I am satisfied with my vote.

Someone hammer please.

This post

reeks

of storyline lynch. Lying isn't a great move, by any circumstance, but enomis is using lying as his main reason for pushing this lynch. I've already stated that lying is null at best, but for a player like enomis who has been here for 2 years, it sounds like a copout.

And then there's the fact that he admits that she might be town, and then asks someone to hammer anyway. Because...That's why you lynch people, I guess? Because you think they could be town? It's a shit reason for lynching someone, and I don't like it.

VOTE: enomis

I...think I covered everything regarding the way that I feel right now.

Those posts made me believe Shinobi was town after his strange behaviour around the Mala lynch. The first post just comes across as extremely town, his reaction to Mala slipping up implies that he is worried that should she flip scum, he will be lynched next. He furthers this asking the cop to check him to try and keep himself alive the next day. Of course, if he was scum he would know that they could just roleblock the cop so he was safe to ask this, but I just don't see it.

He follows this up with a solid post for his reasons against the Mala lynch, and attempts to provide a case on somebody else. Again, a very towny post.

Quick thoughts before I commence re-read: Regfan, you are damn near about to lose your right-to-read-F-16-card if you continue along with vein. I am town as fuck and you better see it sooner rather than later.

You have nowhere near enough posts to be claiming such things.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm honestly getting sick of mentioning this but am gonna keep doing it - How is Mala being allowed to skate by in the game, throwing out the occasional town-like post and disappearing for days? Like, nobody is putting any pressure on her at all...

In relation to Xayzeck's post...that looks like a confession to me as well. The way I read it though, is as if he is talking to his partner and asking if he is trying to gain town-cred for his lynch? Would he phrase it like that to a townie? Although, if it is a scum slip, it's obviously accidental and the phrasing of it wouldn't change at all.

That line really needs some explanation. A claim would be nice as well.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Mmk. I do need to look over F16 reads more carefully. There was a vibe in wicked that came off his reads lists there at second glance that made his reads look fake. So I just need to sit down and go through it carefully.

I just said I would post more detailed analysis withing 48 hours of the deadline. I am just a bit distracted right now.

Hmm. You better seems like scum stalling like you and nacho did in wicked.

Hey, look! Disappearing for 4 days after claiming to do some investigative work on our new friend and coming back with absolutely nothing, it's my #1 lynch candidate!

Let's lynch her.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I didn't claim to do investigate work.

Umm, what does this mean then?

Mmk.

I do need to look over F16 reads more carefully.

There was a vibe in wicked that came off his reads lists there at second glance that made his reads look fake.

So I just need to sit down and go through it carefully

.

It looks like you were going to investigate his reads post.

I know you're inactive, I get it. I wish you would have explained this on D1 instead of telling everybody you 'never really have a good D1' when in actual fact 'you never really have a good day'.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

OK, so just one more time...Is Mala off the table for today's lynch?

On a separate note, I was scum-reading F-16's predecessor, and F-16 has done absolutely nothing to make me change my mind. His reads post was pretty bad and I completely agree with everything Regfan has posted regarding this and he then went against it anyway after further reading/questioning. I'm not sure what's taking him so long to provide his analysis either, I suspect it will be used to save his life should his lynch become a possibility.
So, let's make that happen

UNVOTE:

VOTE: F-16

P.S I'm still happy to lynch Mala. Just saying.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I've got scumteam in {F-16, Mala

, Mora}

F-16 is still scum, buddy is probably Mala

or Mora

Mala hasn't done much despite this being quite an important stage in the game.

I mean, I just can't argue against any of this. I agree, let's lynch Mala. I have pointed out numerous times how inactive she has been on both days but particularly on D2, but nobody seems willing to listen. She then glides in and provides one post which is a shining beacon of town-like activity (my assumption of how people read Mala's posts, not how I read them in case that wasn't obvious) and leaves again for days.

Basically he just feels like a tornado messing up town fmpov until I've got no idea who's what anymore, and I dunno whether this is intentional or not, but I see no reason town want to do this

I don't know if I can use specific posts, but in general he's just messing up my head in this game. I'll see if I can find specific posts, but this is a "how he has played in general" thing.

I don't agree with this. There must have been specific posts when you started thinking 'What is Mora trying to do here?' or 'That's a little confusing and doesn't make sense' etc etc, I would very much like to see some specific posts.

Also, I don't want to claim unless I absolutely need to.

Just a heads up; You can try and fake claim doctor all you want; you'll still get lynched btw.

This pinged for me. I can't help but read that sentence as he was contemplating claiming the doc role, but decided against it after Regfan's post regarding such a claim.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I have a question.

Does anybody feel like Mora hopped onto the back of Regfan's questioning/read of me? Sheeping a confirmed town player into trying to apply pressure on me? If I'm not mistaken, when he posted everybody's ranking of reads based on posting, I was his 3rd strongest town-read. After that, he hadn't bothered with me at all.

After Regfan's (fake) questioning/suspicion of me, Mora seemed to think this may have been an opportunity to help start a wagon and began trying to apply pressure/question me.

What does everyone make of this observation?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Regfan makes a good case on both Xayzeck and BBT, and I hope I'm not overstating that through claimed-cop-colored glasses.

Shorter BBT case: (permit the interpretation) Bulk without true substance. I'd like to see if this actually holds water, by taking every concrete opinion stated by BBT in game and seeing how many of them are original, and how many of them are sheeped (shept?) from other players at earlier times in the game. Yay, new project.

So, I'm just gonna put this out there. This happened before my post regarding your case on Xayzeck.

I fail to see how you can scum-read F-16 for doing the exact same thing that Mora (one of your town-reads) has done.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Post #1162 isn't true.

I claim doctor. Protected MafiaModerator/Regfan night 1, protected Malakittens night 2 in an attempt to outguess the scumteam and dig us out of the hole we were in. I'm reasonably sure that claiming now is the best move given the circumstances, but we're in mylo, so if someone town puts out a vote too quick on the wrong person, we basically lose immediately.

I tried to play this game on the edge of scummy-but-don't-get-lynched, so as not to get nightkilled, once I saw how important doctor surviving appeared to be according to the Newbie Stats thread. And I've learned that apparently that's pretty hard to do, I keep getting read as obvtown. The additional problem with this particular game, of course, is that the cop claimed D1, so as long as the Roleblocker is still alive, town is up shit creek. So keeping myself alive was only going to be useful if we could figure out who the roleblocker was. This is why you don't claim cop unprompted D1. Ever.

Yesterday's hammer was a mistake, but I'll have more to say about that in post-game.

Please vote for my counter-claimer.

Hmm, I guess this was your only move after your hammer yesterday. I'm not sure anyone counter-claiming just yet is the right way to go either. If it is, I need convincing.

It looks like I was the only one who read you as you were trying to be read. If that was your intention, it sure is a convenient way to explain your scummy behaviour at times. What makes you so sure there will be a counter-claim?

In case you haven't picked up on it, I don't believe your claim.

I also expect Mala to say that she had Mora down as Doc. Just saying.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Reads like a soft CC. Also reads like you didn't think to discuss a doctor claim in scumchat, and this is you asking for advice from your scumpartner (which by PoE is currently either SE or

IC

).

Umm, is this you scum-reading someone who you considered nailed on town yesterday?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Reads like a soft CC. Also reads like you didn't think to discuss a doctor claim in scumchat, and this is you asking for advice from your scumpartner (which by PoE is currently either SE or

IC

).

Umm, is this you scum-reading someone who you considered nailed on town yesterday?

Absolutely. Only one of you three is town, and if I'm so conceited as to know for a fact which one it is, we lose.

The rules change in lylo.

Reasons for Mala being scum?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I claim doctor. Protected MafiaModerator/Regfan night 1, protected Malakittens night 2 in an attempt to outguess the scumteam and dig us out of the hole we were in. I'm reasonably sure that claiming now is the best move given the circumstances, but we're in mylo, so if someone town puts out a vote too quick on the wrong person, we basically lose immediately.

I also don't agree with your 'choices'. I don't think there was any chance of scum killing Mala. You protected an inactive/pretty bad cop N1 and chose to not protect a pretty active/aggressive/contributing cop on N2 who I feel was a very likely choice for N2 kill (probably favourite, I'm actually surprised he survived the night) and instead chose to protect someone who had already claimed VT and was contributing next to nothing. Mala was always going to survive, and it gives you a perfect chance to point to her reads list; in fact claiming you as doc herself.

After D1, I felt sure myself or yourself would be killed. I don't know why you wouldn't protect one of us if you're the doc, although I can't argue against you protecting the cop as it's an obvious first choice. It is worth noting though, that you would have already known there was a roleblocker. Knowing this, there was also a chance that the cop would get blocked and scum would doc-hunt straight away and you could have put your power to better use. It's hard to argue against protecting cop N1, but I just feel those points are worth noting.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Mala: Too quiet, lurking, low contribution, lying, if town is just misreading and doing late-day vote flips in the wrong direction, staying low and letting town trip over themselves is a fine scumplay

But she has done this all game...

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I claim doctor. Protected MafiaModerator/Regfan night 1, protected Malakittens night 2 in an attempt to outguess the scumteam and dig us out of the hole we were in. I'm reasonably sure that claiming now is the best move given the circumstances, but we're in mylo, so if someone town puts out a vote too quick on the wrong person, we basically lose immediately.

I also don't agree with your 'choices'. I don't think there was any chance of scum killing Mala. You protected an inactive/pretty bad cop N1 and chose to not protect a pretty active/aggressive/contributing cop on N2 who I feel was a very likely choice for N2 kill (probably favourite, I'm actually surprised he survived the night) and instead chose to protect someone who had already claimed VT and was contributing next to nothing. Mala was always going to survive, and it gives you a perfect chance to point to her reads list; in fact claiming you as doc herself.

After D1, I felt sure myself or yourself would be killed. I don't know why you wouldn't protect one of us if you're the doc, although I can't argue against you protecting the cop as it's an obvious first choice. It is worth noting though, that you would have already known there was a roleblocker. Knowing this, there was also a chance that the cop would get blocked and scum would doc-hunt straight away and you could have put your power to better use. It's hard to argue against protecting cop N1, but I just feel those points are worth noting.

First paragraph, you poo-poo my choice of N1 protect. Second paragraph, it's an obvious choice. What's the point in informing me that you don't agree with my choices? So that you can call me out as a bad doctor post-game?

Re-read what you just typed here. You are basically talking to yourself, stating things that everyone realizes. This is why you are read as bulk without substance.

First para - Your choices don't make sense to me if you are doc, that's what I'm trying to say.

Second para - I felt that some things needed pointing out even though it was a cop-protect. Everyone may not have realized what I posted, but they do now that I have posted it.

That bulk without substance is just a comical statement, it really is.

Re Mala - You didn't even consider a Mala lynch yesterday. Nobody would. I find it strange that you're now scum-reading her given nothing has changed in that sense. Why did you not consider her lynch yesterday?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I've been onboard two townflip lynches

Indeed you have, with extremely questionable reasoning/motive for both I might add.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hi. I'm Moratorium.

You lot appear to have placed me at an L-1 situation based on the extremely accurate prognostication of the Random Voting Stage.

Get your votes off me, you insane retards.

Thank you.

I've played Day 1 rather poorly. Not because of the vote necessarily, which I convinced myself was correct. More significantly, I didn't properly forsee the consequences of Eno being town, and that will make me a great burden to town for as long as I remain alive.

(691)^

So it didn't occur to me until this statement below that the above was likely a softclaim for a Pr. I can see an obv town player try to downplay their game towards the end to avoid soaking up a NK that night. With the claimed cop, Shin's town slip which very likely making him a VT and wolfy's town flip I was able to figure out who the doc was with just three players not really knowing which one was the last VT.

I'm kinda sad MS was down on the weekend I had a lot of time off. I should be okay until Friday night as my schedule is all days until then, but sat I'm back to nights until the following Tuesday night.

Stop ninja'ing it's hard enough on a phone but worst with that >_>

That first sentence is very confusing. What's with all the above and below talk?

Secondly, if those posts that you have quoted are your reasons for reading Mora as doc then I'm not going to be able to play for a while because I'm actually going to smash my laptop up. Just saying.