NY 174: Oldy Mafia 2 (Game Over)

[Bookitty]

Hi, everyone. It's a bit late for me, but I'll try to have something useful tomorrow.

Nice to see so many names I know!

[Bookitty]

Bookitty hi! Are you scum?

Hey, Glork! And thank goodness, no.

I think vote count analyses are mostly useful later in the game. However, they are great tools for town because they are based on facts, not theory. While you and I might look at the same VCA and derive different conclusions, we're going to have the same facts. So while I don't agree with LML's vote on Untrod Tripod (try saying that fast, yikes) I don't think LML is scummy for having provided information, arriving at some conclusions and placing a vote based on those conclusions.

@PetroleumJelly

: In a game this size with this many players, wouldn't it make more sense NOT to put in the effort to do that analysis if LML was scum? I think it would be pretty easy to blend in with the pack and not make too many waves. VCA data is verifiable by town and can be used throughout the game to catch scum, though I think it's really not that useful until later. Why would scum make an effort to tell the truth to town when they could generally just coast? This line of argument seems fabricated and could be used against anyone, town or scum, who put in effort to provide data. To paraphrase chamber's tagline, it's as if you're saying "content is scummy."

UNVOTE:
VOTE: PetroleumJelly

[Bookitty]

As far as the Seol vote goes, I didn't notice him the last time I looked through the thread because he hadn't done anything. That's due to lack of attention on my part. If it weren't for the replacement I'd agree that it's a more and more reasonable place to put a vote, but right now I'm tentatively chalking it up to an unimpressive start due to lack of interest in the game.

Why are you ignoring the obvious link to his alignment? If he's town, he gets to scumhunt people, he gets to interact freely with people that he used to know, all sorts of fun stuff. If he's scum, everything he does is under pressure and he has to fake doing something that he hasn't done in a long while.

Seol and I know each other, so he OMGUSes me in the first post but doesn't say anything? I push him relentlessly as scum and he doesn't say anything? He just continues making an easy case on mafiaSSK instead of engaging with the game. That's Seolscum, no doubt.

I checked the activity level on Seol. He made a grand total of four posts during his tenure in the game. I have no idea why he replaced out, but if I had to guess based on his posts, I would guess that he found the pace of the game too fast and overwhelming.

@UntrodTripod:

I think I said it before, but to me VCAs are only useful after you've seen a few flips. I don't agree with LML's way of using them, but I do think that they can be really useful to town later on.

I'll give LML a closer look, but I don't think he's scummy for the VCA.

@chamber:

I don't know what it refers to, but if you want to explain, I'd love to hear it. It's not a theory I've heard before

[Bookitty]

reading is tech, boo

I don't catch your meaning.

I've been reading the game since the beginning, but I didn't actually think I would get the chance to replace in. So I didn't make detailed notes. Certainly I didn't do ISOs and multiple player drill-downs for a game I wasn't even in :p

What is it you think I've missed?

[Bookitty]

I can definitely feel the love. :p

[Bookitty]

Oh, yeah.

I have mad respect and love for a lot of the people on the playerlist and I'm now having to put that aside to try to find scum. I'm voting for PJ because I think his reasoning for voting LML looks manufactured and would logically lead to reduced contributions along the same line.

That doesn't clear LML, but it does make me suspicious of PJ, given his minimal approach to contributing to the game so far.

[Bookitty]

@SaveTheDragons

What did you think of LML's justification for taking his vote off you and putting it on UntrodTripod? Do you think that jumping from wagon to wagon is more scummy or not scummy?

[Bookitty]

Other stuff.

1.)

@PetroleumJelly: In a game this size with this many players, wouldn't it make more sense NOT to put in the effort to do that analysis if LML was scum? I think it would be pretty easy to blend in with the pack and not make too many waves. VCA data is verifiable by town and can be used throughout the game to catch scum, though I think it's really not that useful until later. Why would scum make an effort to tell the truth to town when they could generally just coast? This line of argument seems fabricated and could be used against anyone, town or scum, who put in effort to provide data. To paraphrase chamber's tagline, it's as if you're saying "content is scummy."

No.

No, you're not saying content is scummy? No, you don't think that it would make more sense to fly under the radar? No to both? Scum coasting on minimal content was a pretty common thing the last time I was playing regularly and I haven't seen much to dissuade me of this yet.

Follow-up: do you think my play has been coasting? Do you think I have been making any waves? What makes you say I have "given a minimal approach to contributions to the game so far"?

At the point I posted that, you had posted eight times. Some of your posts were lists of questions; others were theory discussion regarding the value of bandwagoning and the question of weak players vs. stronger players. You asked Tigris some questions; what did you hope to derive from the answers? Did Tigris's answers sway you to the view that she was town or that she was scum?

I liked your move from MafiaSSK to LML because LML is far higher on my scumlist than MafiaSSK; however, I didn't like the timing and it seemed really suspicious since you said you had been "giving him a wide berth" and then suddenly you came up with all the reasons why your vote was totally and completely justified at the point you made it, i.e., right after he put up his VCA (good) and then exhibited craplogic in his conclusions (bad).

What do you think your main contributions have been so far? What do you feel you've learned from your questioning? Do you still think MafiaSSK is scum? Is it likely he is scum with LML?

Reading the game for the second and third time, I'm seeing a lot of heat and smoke from your posts, but I just don't see a lot of light.

[Bookitty]

Is LML a town read for you at this point? I'm getting the real feel of having your cake and eating it too so I would like you to clarify your opinion on him.

LML is a null-leaning-scum read for me. The scum part is:

He pulls his vote off STD and then votes UT for the EXACT SAME thing. His VCA actually shows that. I realize he's only got one vote, but why switch it at the point he does and then blame it on his VCA? That's not reading honest to me. STD ducked my question on that, but I would be interested to know how STD sees that move. To me, it was the scummiest thing LML did all game and it made me look hard at STD as a result.

The town part is:

I've read the game several times over the last few days. I still don't have it down, but I guess that's normal for a large game. But I notice that LML is the target of choice for a lot of people with not a lot of reasoning. I hadn't thought about it the way Glork did, but the truth is that Glork is a better scumhunter than I am. (I'm sure those who have played with me before will back me up on this.) I just gave my reason for thinking he might be scum; so far as I recall, I'm the only one who noted that exact thing. (I could be wrong on that, but I don't remember reading anyone on LML's wagon and saying, AHA, you think what *I* think.) The reasons given aren't as good as that one in my eyes, which makes me think that some of the people on LML's wagon are scum without real motivation except finding a convenient wagon. Which, in turn, makes me think that LML might be town after all.

[Bookitty]

BooKitty:Please explain what you mean when you say you are seeing a "lot of heat and smoke" from my posts.

Your explanations actually make a lot of sense to me. However, the Tigris explanation and your results are nowhere in the thread that I saw. If it's valuable information, shouldn't you share your findings with town? Do you intend to make a similar investigation of the person who replaced into her slot?

The "Socratic dialogue" with VitaminR reads completely like smoke and mirrors. Reread it for yourself and I think you'll see exactly why.

I ask a lot of questions as part of my playstyle too. And no, you don't need to worry about being condescending, I don't have a huge ego about my scumhunting prowess. I replaced into a game you modded back in the Dark Ages, and my scumhunting abilities haven't changed much since then. But when I do try to make an assessment of someone's alignment (as you say you are doing) I share the results of my findings with town. That way there's this transparency that makes it easier for other people to understand my motivations.

I don't like you saying that you were giving LML a wide berth and then suddenly springing your assessment on everyone.

Do you feel that the scumtell I mentioned before is the one you were picking up on?

It wasn't really clear to me from the wording of your post.

I REALLY want an answer to the bolded part, please.

Also, hey Bookitty! Good to see you here. I can’t help but notice your entrance in the game was rather inconspicuous, though, without the customary après-reread analysis wallpost. I’d really like to hear your reads on people.

Hi! Yeah, I replaced in late on a Friday night and I WILL do it but I've been really busy and I've been posting in between other things that have to get done. I have reread the thread on the go on my tablet; one of those posts takes a long time actually sitting in front of the computer with multiple windows open, especially in a game this size with so many people to consider in ISO and drill-down and all that stuff.

If you truly believe that someone on LML is opportunistic scum why am I seeing no content on Green Crayons or Yos? It's just a laser beam focus on PJ despite having read the game several times according to you. Doesn't add up.

I just got here. Do you truly expect someone who replaced in late on Friday night to have had time to do what you suggest?

[Bookitty]

Just a quick post to let you know I am fighting off the flu. I'm going to make an effort to make a response later today to the questions asked of me.

Sorry for the delay in responding.

[Bookitty]

Rather than try to pick out all the questions and answer them individually, I’m going to try to sum up things and then take questions if I missed them. I’m kind of doped up on pain meds, so this may be rambling. I’ll apologise for that upfront.

Yes, I’m nervous. I haven’t played for several years, I’m rusty and I am playing with people whose opinions I value. It’s an unnerving combination. I don’t want to make a fool of myself.

While I did read the game from the start (or nearly so) for entertainment, I had the same enforced week-long hiatus everyone else did. I didn’t reread it immediately upon returning because I was busy with other things and I knew there was a line already formed for replacements; I didn’t expect I would get in. There are 22 people in this game; I do not believe I’ve ever been in a game that large. I’m not alone in finding this game hard to figure out and hard to remember.

Okay, on to things that actually matter to someone besides me:

LML comes into the game with that stupid random vote thing. He says Glork is a town read (which Glork is for me too, but I took longer to get there), attacks Sotty7 for avoiding the two main wagons on Tigris and on MafiaSSK to vote Seol (me, now). It’s a weak attack, though, I don’t know if he means it. (I have no meta on LML that I recall.)

I don’t even understand the Glork wagon except that it’s tradition so I’m not going to try to analyze that.

Now, about those MafiaSSK and Tigris wagons, here’s where I start looking at PJ like I think he might have cooties. Tigris has a healthy bandwagon on her for saying she likes to be nonconformist (her wagon appears to be based on nothing more than that) and MafiaSSK tells her so. It’s stupid to me, but it’s not scummy of MafiaSSK that I can see. Tigris responds with this theory post and Chamber says, OMG I found scum! “Her words weren’t actually meaningfully responding to the context of the question.”

Okay, Post 52 is the first one that I actually saw from PJ. I am not going to say that it’s his first post but it’s the first one I noticed at all. I got really weird vibes from this: “Not happy asking these questions, as these are the kind of questions I grind newbies with just to get a better sense of how they play. But given that I have not played with Tigris, I'll give myself a pass.”

He’s already excusing himself for asking questions when no one has said it was scummy yet. That’s… weird to me. It doesn’t seem honest.

Okay, giant wall of questions for Tigris that seem vaguely to incriminate her. PJ says to me later he’s just doing it to get a sense of her playstyle. The first question might be that; the rest look really not. PJ then votes MafiaSSK for questioning Tigris and defending bandwagons. Wait… what?

So now I’m suspicious of PJ. And it’s not helped by people jumping on the MafiaSSK wagon (including Seol, so I’m not overlooking that).

We had Glork, MafiaSSK, Mr. Buddy Lee (and I have been confusing him with LML, I see that now, but I don’t think it matters given the very limited amount of posting I remember from MBL), Save the Dragons and Untrod Tripod on Tigris. I know LML is voting Tigris from RVS. He doesn’t say anything about it for a while though.

Then you have PJ, Seol, Porochaz and Green Crayons with votes on MafiaSSK and LML putting in the FoS.

PJ comes back in post 107 to explain his vote on MafiaSSK. He says this is an “over-the-top assertion”: (MafiaSSK to Tigris)” Because bandwagons are guaranteed information especially at high vote counts. You choosing to go after someone different has in fact more potential to gain less information...” More questions that look like scumhunting but are directed at what look to be random targets. The MafiaSSK question I sort of understand. Why does PJ care what MrBuddyLee thinks of Sotty7?

Looking at this now, I guess I can sort of see the “Socratic dialogue” thing. To me, though, that begs the question, why does he want to educate VitaminR? Does PJ think VR is scum? Town? It’s like he’s setting up all these different angles and he can just go to whichever one. His only stated suspicion is on MafiaSSK and I think it’s trumped up. I remember thinking it was weird on a first read and I still do.

At this point VitaminR was voting LML. I understand his reasoning here, though I think the people actually voting MafiaSSK were more odd. Untrod Tripod called VitaminR scum for this but he’s not voting for VitaminR so I don’t know if it’s rhetoric or if UT means it.

And not to leave out, a wagon is building on Seol. I think it’s because of that vote on MafiaSSK; anyway, Sotty7, Shanba and Cogito Ergo Sum are on my wagon. SavetheDragons votes for me too (well, Seol), which makes perfect sense if you look back to him voting Tigris and taking that side on the MafiaSSK debate. Seol’s on the other side and he doesn’t really justify his vote.

VitaminR starts attracting some votes, I don’t really get why. MafiaSSK expresses that he’s fine with the wagon on him, which I think is townie. Yosarian2 awards towncred to both GreenCrayons and chamber for their outstanding snarkiness. Meanwhile, LML is going after StD and dropping his … I don’t know why he was voting Tigris if not just laziness from RVS. I don’t think he ever indicated he thought she was scum up til this point in the game. But most of his post is to Albert, not StD. So I don’t get that either.

I’m going to continue this but it’s so huge that I just wanna post it now and go on to the next part. I realize it’s sort of unfocused but at the moment so am I and I just didn’t want to wait until I was all better to do what I promised I was going to do.

If I mixed up any facts, honestly, I'm not surprised. I think everything I said was right, but please feel free to correct me (or call me scummy or whatever) if I have anything wrong.

[Bookitty]

Is it okay if I continue this? It's really helpful to me in remembering all my reasons for why I thought things, so I'm going to do it anyway. But if you want me not to post these ungodly long blocks of text, I can stop whenever. I'm getting to the important stuff now, I think.

[Bookitty]

Okay, Post 123 from Shanba makes me feel really good about Shanba. I never got the logic for Tigris’s wagon, but I never got the logic for MafiaSSK’s wagon either. It’s like everyone else is seeing as:

MafiaSSK is right! OMG the scumminess of not bandwagoning!
No, Tigris is right! Individuality is great!

And neither one of these is right to me. Bandwagoning is just bandwagoning, it’s null. Picking out someone else is also okay, ESPECIALLY when she did it, during RVS. Shanba calls out Glork. I don’t agree with Shanba’s suspicions of Yos, because I agreed with Yos. I thought that both bandwagons were dumb and it seemed like such a false dichotomy.

MafiaSSK’s Post 107 is mostly town to me. He’s answering that question from PJ that I commented on earlier. MafiaSSK comments that his vote on Tigris was really still in the RVS stage (and I agree, it really was). I can sort of see the logic in going after VitaminR for bravery that must be born out of scum knowledge, but I’ve seen the same sort of bravery from town. I think Yos’s case is weak and MafiaSSK is agreeing with it; I don’t think it’s scummy though. What’s interesting here is that MafiaSSK is attacking VitaminR for defending him for weak reasons. This is a strong towntell for SSK in my eyes. I think scum would skate on the good vibes.

CTD votes Chamber for that same thing I mentioned in my last post about “Hai guise I found the scumz!” about Tigris. I’m still keeping track of the dichotomy, and that puts CTD on the Tigris side. So it’s like this now:

Glork, SSK, Buddy Lee, UT, and Chamber on the Tigris wagon either with votes, scum accusations or by extension. You also have to add in Sotty7, Shanba and CES as on this side of the equation because they’re voting Seol for voting MafiaSSK. (I think I’m right about this.)

PJ. Seol, Porochaz, Green Crayons, StD, LML and CTD on the MafiaSSK wagon in the same way. I know not all of them are voting him, but there’s the same justification as in the last bit.

Okay, now CTD is voting MafiaSSK. I know Seol was doing that, but I don’t agree with it!

Chamber looks bad for Post 130. It’s like he’s about to approach an actual position on Tigris… omg, no, he’s turned around and is running off the field of play! I don’t have the meta read nor the firm conviction that he’s scum that CES and CTD do at this point though.

I agree with Sotty7 in Post 144. Not so much with StD in Post 150; this I really didn’t like:

“In my opinion, I felt that that

while erroneous

, the jumps onto Tigris were either justified by a pro-town motivation to tack onto someone who seemed suspicious, or did not give enough information for me to really read.”

Wait, did we see a Tigris flip? I don’t remember that. When did that happen?

MafiaSSK says that we can’t just dismiss the Glork wagon. O RLY? Ha, watch me! He makes a point about CES tunneling on Seol (I think that was explained later as “Seol is my RL buddy and I know he would react to me voting him if he were town” or something approaching that) and still pointing out that chamber’s alignment is obvious (obvscum, from context).

PJ goes after MafiaSSK for his rhetorical style. Asks UT about his preferences in what he likes to play.

Oh, someone asked me if I hated playing scum (I don’t remember who and my head is too fuzzy to go looking through the thread for it) – the answer is yeah, I don’t like playing scum. I prefer doing long analysis thingies and trying to pick out connections. It’s mostly something I’m better at after a few flips, though.

Wow, Seol says something I agree with! Though I think he’s wrong in the application: “I don't think this game has any "easy targets".” I like Seol’s questioning of MafiaSSK but I just still think SSK is town.

DrippingGoofball is playing to her town meta (IMO). Also, hi, DG!

Glork says something that I so agree with: “I'd like PJ to branch out and actually give scum/town opinions on people not named MafiaSSK. While I'm fine with the asking-questions thing (in part because it's consistent with what I'd expect him to do, and in part because I've behaved similarly this far), I'm anxious for follow-up.” I feel like PJ hasn’t given ANY opinions on what he’s derived from his questions.

MafiaSSK responds to PJ’s argument that SSK is confused/lying about the reason behind his vote. Then it gets into a huge discussion on the part of SSK about the incredible and delightful value of bandwagoning in RVS and how it delivers delicious fruit that is only healthy and good for town and never has that scummy aftertaste. Yum!

I do like SSK’s point about everything mattering and there not being a bright line where posting suddenly has meaning and merit.

Okay, I have to go for a little. I’ll have more tonight. Sorry this is so ungodly long but it’s just a lot of content to go through and to explain what were essentially ephemeral observations that I wish to god I had written down at the time instead of now.

[Bookitty]

He’s already excusing himself for asking questions when no one has said it was scummy yet. That’s… weird to me. It doesn’t seem honest.

That's not what he's excusing himself for.

Looking at this now, I guess I can sort of see the “Socratic dialogue” thing. To me, though, that begs the question, why does he want to educate VitaminR? Does PJ think VR is scum? Town? It’s like he’s setting up all these different angles and he can just go to whichever one. His only stated suspicion is on MafiaSSK and I think it’s trumped up. I remember thinking it was weird on a first read and I still do.

Why does he need to think either? And your predecessor spent most of his time going after MafiaSSK for most of the same reasons as PJ, so that seems like a really weird opinion for you to have as town.

Okay, I'm back. I think this is a serious question rather than rhetorical (sorry, my rhetoric meter is broken at the moment).

I'm not my predecessor. I don't know what he thought or why he thought it. If I did, I would tell you, but I have what you have, which is not a lot to go on. So asking me why Seol did this or that is pointless. Not a clue.

And I don't question people unless I have some sort of lean on them, and it's usually a scumlean. I was a philosophy major (yeah, point and laugh all you want) and I know the purpose of Socratic dialogues in the teaching environment. We're in the Mafia environment. What's the point of engaging in that sort of educational exercise just to reach some shared truth in this game? You have to have an angle, don't you, or a point you're trying to figure out about the other person? Otherwise why bother with it in THIS environment?

[Bookitty]

I agree with Sotty7 in Post 144. Not so much with StD in Post 150; this I really didn’t like:

“In my opinion, I felt that that

while erroneous

, the jumps onto Tigris were either justified by a pro-town motivation to tack onto someone who seemed suspicious, or did not give enough information for me to really read.”

Wait, did we see a Tigris flip? I don’t remember that. When did that happen?

I believe the use of the term erroneous here is an opinion. It may not be clear since I used terms like "I felt" and "In my opinion", but in my opinion, I feel like that implies an opinion.

Okay. You were on that bandwagon yourself. I may be getting bogged down in semantics, but the sentence you wrote would be properly punctuated thusly:

In my opinion, I felt that, while erroneous, the jumps onto Tigris were either justified... etc.

The sentence makes sense without the clause "while erroneous" so it's not clear that this part is in your opinion.

Why do you think the jumps on Tigris were erroneous, then?

[Bookitty]

Okay, back to my game analysis. I'm not really sure where I was (I'm on a different computer). MafiaSSK posts about the Seol-CES love-hate relationship and draws a link between CES and CTD; I'm not seeing it. I do have a question:

@CrashTextDummie: Hey, when you said chamber's alignment was obvious, were you saying he was obvscum or obvtown? I read it as obvscum but chamber thinks you were awarding valuable towncred.

Sotty7 actually reiterates something I thought in Post 207. I feel like Green Crayons and Sotty7 are really on the same page but ascribing different importance to the words used. I'm guilty of this myself so I can only say that exchange sounds genuine. Yeah, I feel like Yosarian2 is town. (I may be repeating myself). I don't agree about VitaminR but I still think that post is "sacred" in that it makes me think Yos is town.

STD says that he disagrees with most of what MafiaSSK says but he still thinks he's legit. I agree with this (though that townread is less secure on this intensive reread, it's still there). We're still in the false dichotomy thing though, and I just hate it.

ABR's quoting of BB is so LOL. So is Glork's wat response

In Post 244, PJ is still pushing on VitaminR for a question that (I'm not looking it up, but I can find it if someone needs it) by his own accounting wouldn't make VR any friends in the game. I don't know why he wants to know who the weak players are in VR's opinion. He's also soft-defending his pursuit of SSK by saying it's similar to VR's "semi-serious" vote on DGB in the first two pages. He attacks Glork for framing the debate about MafiaSSK as a theory debate (which I think it REALLY was) and basically tells Glork that PJ's reads are none of his (or anyone's) business. That's so not town to me. Also doesn't get the ABR quote. (NOT A SCUMTELL though. Just funny.)

I like Undo's Post 246.

Shanba says he doesn't know what the Seol wagon was for. I think it was for that vote on Tigris, but I am not sure of this.

I don't know why in Post 257 Yos puts chamber as town. At a guess, meta? I agree Green Crayons and Glork feel town to me.

Okay, I HATE this: Post 279 VitaminR makes some really good points about LML and instead of saying anything relevant back, he says: "To be completely fair again, a LOT of people went alone with two weak wagons. Hell, some of the people you've quite ignored have actually BEEN on 3 or 4 wagons thus far. Why have they earned a pass from you?" To me that's deflection. That's scummy and I didn't notice it before or I forgot it. VitaminR and LML go back and forth and VitaminR wins that.

Meh, STD gets towncred from me for Post 285. This is irritating.

Despite my use of pain meds, I still have a headache that would kill a horse. I will pick this up tomorrow. Hopefully I'll be more coherent and less drugged up.

[Bookitty]

I’m feeling much better today. Hi ABR, DGB and Shanba! <3

I sat down to start on my PBPA again (with grim determination) and I suddenly realized something. Short of a scum lynch, my lynch is probably the best single information lynch for the town. I’ve interacted with just about everyone. After my flip you can go back and read everything I posted with certain knowledge of my alignment.

We need a lynch now, in my opinion. The pace of the game is slowing down and people are starting to have Day 1 fatigue. I think mine is the most likely wagon at the moment (I haven’t seen a vote count recently, but at a guess that’s right) and I think you need to push it to its conclusion.

After my lynch, though, I would ask that you actually look at the people I pointed to and reexamine their postings carefully. Think about why PJ would be so reluctant to give any information to town and would react so negatively to suggestions that he should. Look at the votes on my wagon and the reasons given for them; did they make sense?

Anyway, this all to say I’m good with being lynched. I don’t think it’s great that the day drag on and on, so if any of you were swayed by my “appeals to emotion” (end sarcasm) don’t be. We need to move on and I’m willing to be the lynch if it gets that accomplished.

[Bookitty]

Sure, I'm VT.

[Bookitty]

I don't remember who asked me for my scumreads (I have the feeling it was MrBuddyLee, but I don't have time currently to go back and check). These are going to be paraphrases; I am on a deadline. The info on specifically why is probably in my previous PBPAs.

• PJ - obviously my top scumread. Everyone is scum, he has no townreads. He's unwilling to give any of his precious info to town. He's afraid of LML but the VCA gave him courage to jump on him. Timing of jumps is just odd.
  chamber - this is weak for me. I go back and forth on it; I haven't played with chamber that I remember and I can't get any handle on his playstyle. Some things looked really scummy to me but I can't actually recall them now (I'm sure it's in my PBPA, though, for later.)
  Untrod Tripod - jumping from one wagon to another (not scummy in itself) but with no reasons. Jumps in to defend people on playstyle in a way that looked arbitrary and not organic.
  LML - I see the points made against LML and I can agree with them in part. Also, LML has no scum on his wagon right now (IMO) which makes him way more likely scum for me. The person I thought was scummy (PJ) jumped to me as soon as that wagon became viable. I would sheep Yos if I weren't voting PJ.
  Undo - Just awful posting. I kind of feel like he asked me for content and then voted me for thinking too many people were town. I don't get the sense he even read what I wrote; he just skimmed it for a chance to vote me.
  STD - This is contingent. If LML and UT are scum, he's not (I think). He's my weakest scumread outside of chamber, whom i just don't have meta for. Actually, my independent read on UT says that STD is town. Don't rely on this though without a flip from LML or UT.

I've said who I thought was town (I've played with both Yos-town and Glork-town and this is them) and if I don't list someone, I don't have a firm read.

Mathcam is not scum. We need a lynch soon. His point about protecting the powerroles is right on too.

Sorry this is short but I'm playing catch-up on both Mafia and on my actual work.

[Bookitty]

About VitaminR's question about CES's question; I'm not sure what I'm supposed to respond to in this. Obviously the absolute best lynch for today is a scum lynch. If a wagon built on someone I have reasonable suspicions regarding that wasn't PJ, I'd move to it because that would be a better lynch than a confirmed townie. (I'm confirmed to myself, I'm not saying you should consider me that way.) I'd obviously support a PJ lynch because that's my most confident suspicion. By mathcam's figuring, I'd put it at 40%.

I feel like there has been more real discussion of reads since I asked to be lynched. I didn't really expect that. My primary reasoning for saying, yes, lynch me, was that things were dragging and we needed a lynch to actually give people solid information. A lot of the commentary that stood out to me amounted to people saying "I don't feel _______ is sincere." Some of that was directed my way, though not all by a long shot. One sure way to prove sincerity is to flip town. Everything the townie said can be read with the knowledge of their alignment.

If we're not going to lynch scum, lynching a VT is the next best thing in my opinion. Not just any VT, but someone who has given reads and who has put information out there for the town. The negative side to that is something mathcam pointed out, which I hadn't thought about, but which I don't think overrules my primary point. I do tend to be active and to post a lot and to put a lot of information out there for town to evaluate; however, I'm not the greatest scumhunter, and my contributions tend to be most useful in the later game where logic plays a role. (People who have played with me can verify this, I suspect.)

A scum lynch is best (Captain Obvious is obvious). It would give us links to other scum and would provide lots of information to use going forward. A town lynch that doesn't out a powerrole and that offers at least some information to town is second best. Worst is outting a powerrole or just having the game stagnate because people can't come to any conclusion; the last part is primarily why I wanted to push my lynch, get town moving again and keep this game active.

I still think my logic holds, even with the increased activity now.

[Bookitty]

Also, not related to the previous; I've played with DrippingGoofball quite a bit in the old days and I know she's an accurate scumhunter. In one game I played with her and Adel she spotted the scum pretty much 1-2-3. She's worth listening to when she's town, and I think she is here.

[Bookitty]

I <3 you, ABR I have to call them like I see them, though. I think the game was Picking Simplicity, if that helps anyone.

[Bookitty]

@Sotty:

Are you even reading my posts? Please look at Post 643.

[Bookitty]

I think CES is town. (Yeah, I know he's voting me, which makes him wrong, but it doesn't make him scum.) I played with him when he was scum in Mighty Morphin Power Rangers and he played completely different to this; he was accommodating and moved from lynch to lynch without making himself a target like he's doing here. I realise this was a number of years ago, but I don't think he would death tunnel on me like this if he were scum. People with more recent meta can weigh in, but I am not seeing it myself.

[Bookitty]

Well, crap.

Never mind then. I have no meta read on CES at all.

Glork is right, though. Sotty7 isn't reading the game. Otherwise she wouldn't be asking questions that I'd already answered about two pages previous.

[Bookitty]

I'm going to add Sotty7 to my scumlist as well. She felt that my tunneling on PJ and not branching out (note that this was less than 48 hours after I replaced in) was scummy because I wasn't looking at everyone yet and making cases on them. Now, Sotty7 isn't even reading the postings of the person she is voting. To me, that's hypocritical and plays into one of my biggest scumtells; scum don't need to read the thread because they already know who the scum are. If Sotty really thought I was scum, don't you think she'd be reading my posts MORE carefully to try to catch any scumminess she could to support her case?

Sotty's not doing that. She's skimming them, she's missing them altogether. She's content to keep her vote planted on someone without caring if they're town or scum.

To me that's scummy.

[Bookitty]

Yes, I'm reading your posts, including the ones you embed as links rather than quoting. Why did you do that, by the way? It's certainly not to put your case out front and center. It looks like you're trying to hide it, since you're quoting everything else.

You were voting my slot before I came into the game, so I never really considered that you might have been doing that for scummy reasons. But you've flatly said that you just skimmed my PBPA. You're missing points about your PRIMARY suspect. It's a little different than missing something from someone else.

What was the point of your question about Untrod Tripod, anyway? What were you going to derive from that if I didn't find him scummy already?

[Bookitty]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: LoudMouthLee

He basically just claimed scum in thread.

I thought he'd hinted at a powerrole earlier, but I guess I was way off on that.

[Bookitty]

I think it's a real slip. I could be wrong, but I don't see why you use the word bus in that context if you're not scum.

[Bookitty]

By my count we need two more on LML (I could be wrong, though, so please double check me).

I'm sure LML is scum so I would encourage his lynch over mine; however, I think I need four more to be lynched. (Again, double check.)

@Patrick:

If you get a chance, can we have a last-minute scramble-at-deadline vote count?

Thank you.

[Bookitty]

I think saying someone is bussing you is the equivalent of claiming scum, yeah. Does your experience differ?

In most cases, opinions change based on things that happen in the thread. I haven't noticed that with you, however, so maybe it's not true for you.

[Bookitty]

random my ass! you edited those dice you dog.

Pfft. Your memories post halted my dice rolling.

Rollus Interruptus.

PS: STD is another Postus Interruptus. Stop DiceBlocking me.

I thought LML softclaimed Roll Blocking (RoleBlocker) here. I didn't want to say anything for obvious reasons.

I thought PJ had seen the same thing and was trying to get LML lynched to save the nightkill.

Until the bus slipup, I was convinced I was a better lynch than a town PR.

[Bookitty]

I thought LML was the roleblocker from before I replaced into the game. I think a few people could recall that I read looking for things like that. In an old game, Flameaxe commented that we should all lynch someone and have donuts after; I caught that and voted with him until he got nightkilled. I think I could find it if you need me to.

When you moved to him, I thought you had spotted it and that you were scum trying to push a lynch on a power role so that you could use your nightkill on someone else. LML was playing scummy, and I couldn't very well avoid saying so. But scummy can mean powerrole too.

I didn't want to out LML in case I was wrong and the jump was random (I thought your move onto him was odd in its timing). I thought you could be scum. I was sure that LML was town PR. He even said something about rolefishing to someone and I was sure it was another breadcrumb.

When he made the slip, I realised I was wrong. Trading a VT for a PR made sense to me, but I wasn't trading my VT life for a scum.

The doc clue just re-confirmed that he was scum to me.

[Bookitty]

I was talking to PJ.

No, it was just the timing of the vote and the way it was done. That was the first vote on LML's wagon that really felt artificial to me. I felt like the breadcrumb was SO obvious and such a constructed response that I felt like everyone was seeing it. In short, I was paranoid on the subject

[Bookitty]

I don't know either. My guess would be that I was soft-defending him all day. I don't have a meta on LML, so maybe he thought that if he attacked me I would vote him and that would shift the momentum. I wouldn't have except for the scumslip, but he wouldn't have had any reason to know that.

Scum-LML had all reasons but the above to vote me; maybe he thought it would make him obvious scum when I flipped town. I don't know if that would be true though. I think it would have been easy to coast and let me get lynched on Day One. Maybe he was playing for Day Two, but I can't figure out how that would work.

I think PJ is probably town based on LML-scum. There wasn't any tentativeness on either side there imo.

[Bookitty]

It was addressed before. Consider it as an answer to the previous speculation. This question wasn't original to you and has been discussed in the thread already.

[Bookitty]

I'm also worried that confirmation bias is a large factor in my suspicion of bookitty, but it's hard to internally audit for that.

Glrok's handling of the 'slip' feels most natural of those that posted around that time and seemed to switch because of it, to me anyway.

How incomprehensible was this post for others?

I understood it fine.

[Bookitty]

@PJ

:

Your comment that you'd been afraid to engage (I am tired and I'm not looking up the exact wording right now, but I think that's a decent paraphrase) LML followed by a rather vehement case after a couple of people had already been on the bandwagon looked odd. It's like someone saying, "I was afraid to take on Glork, but this VCA he did was just the last straw!" You hadn't been shy earlier, and you didn't look scared later. It didn't ring true to me.

It didn't occur to me that he'd be breadcrumbing roleblocker as scum. I guess that's confirmation bias, but I thought he was playing scummy to try to avoid the night kill. I had filed him in town PR before I ever replaced in. It wasn't until the bus thing that I thought he was scum. I was even thinking of voting myself to make sure of a lynch before that, which makes it even worse.

And yes, I feel really stupid now.

[Bookitty]

random my ass! you edited those dice you dog.

Pfft. Your memories post halted my dice rolling.

Roll

us Interruptus.

PS: STD is another Postus Interruptus. Stop Dice

Blocking

me.

No. I thought he was role blocker because of this. LML's non-claim was a reference to a children's poem, which I believe goes like this:

Hickory Dickory Dock
The mouse ran up the clock
The clock struck one, and down he run
Hickory Dickory DOCk.

See it now?

[Bookitty]

@Mathcam

: Could you possibly make cases in the normal way, rather than using some arbitrary method that I suspect only makes sense to you? Right now, it looks like you're moving people around randomly with +1s and -1s but you don't connect those to any specific events. If you're awarding me a shiny gold star, I want to know what I'm getting it for. I'm not just talking about the long series of numbers recently posted; I'm talking about the lack of reason given for most of your reads so far.

Right now it looks like your figures can mean just about anything you want them to. Saying your figures are based on gut is the opposite of logic and reason. Just using numbers doesn't make it logical. I could give ABR a +1 because I like his avatar, or DGB a -1 because she didn't bring me cookies. If you don't put any reasons down (and I really don't see specific reasons in your posting) then it looks like you're keeping all your options open.

Can you give more detailed reads or support for your up-and-down votes, please?

[Bookitty]

In any case, I've updated my list significantly given new information. Here's a rough organization of my reads. I'm not sure I can justify every single one of them.

Probably pro-town: Chamber, Sotty, StD, inhim, PJ, Yos
Slight pro-town read: MBL, KK, GC, VitR, Glork
Not sure: CTD, DGB
Slight scum: UT, undo, CES, BooKitty
Leaning scum: ABR, porochaz

BooKitty was "leaning scum" (again, still mostly suspicion inherited from Seol) until Day 2, where I agree that her revelation about the role-blocking crumb. I agree with PJ that this explanation has some holes in it, though it's an awfully convoluted ploy for a scum to hope to play for some advantage. So slight town bump there.

I'm not sure what to make of DGB -- I think I might actually feel completely the opposite of Glork, that with the seeming inevitability of LML's lynch, DGB might have thought to distance herself from a LML scumflip by doing something so blatantly pro-LML to cause Glork's reaction. Of course, this argument is dripping with WIFOM, but to me it's enough to mitigate any pro-town boost I initially gave her from being so blatantly pro-LML right before the lynch in the first place. I had her as pretty pro-town yesterday...today, not as much.

ABR is probably a pretty controversial element of my list. But here's where I found going through Day 1 with LML-scum knowledge very interesting. I could totally envision a scum ABR making all of his posts with the idea that he'd get on the LML wagon fast and hard enough to give him some credibility later if LML ever got lynched, but never push hard enough to ensure that the lynch happened. The meta he employs makes this very doable -- he can be on an LML wagon and be very insistent about it without anyone taking him seriously, because he contributes essentially nothing in terms of an argument. And then he was quite happy to abandon that wagon in favor of greener pastures that don't get his scumbuddy LML lynched. His waffling between ABR and LML looks, retroactively, like someone who wants to appear anti-LML, but would really prefer to lynch someone else. After his first exodus from the LMLmobile, he gets back on (seemingly reluctabtly) only after prodding by VitR. My only real concern about this argument are the two times where ABR actually does defend LML's posting (posts 309 and 454), which seems slightly off. Nonetheless, reading day 1 with an ABR-LML pairing in mind felt like a very natural fit.

Porochaz hasn't posted enough to get a solid read, but he, like LML, has done nothing to me that seems pro-town. I'm a little surprised by his absence on other people's scumlists -- perhaps there's an argument I was forgetting? In fact, I even found his drunk post a little scummy, though I can't seem to be able to articulate why.

This is exactly what I mean, chamber, if it's not clear. Apart from ABR, he doesn't give any reasoning, and the reasoning he does give on ABR is confused. (At one point he suggests that ABR is waffling between an ABR and an LML wagon.)

I'm not voting him because I have no meta. From his name, though, I was expecting thinking a bit more logical and organized. If I'm wrong, tell me now.

[Bookitty]

Now some follow-up questions for mathcam.

It should be noted that I did not realize your +1/-1 system would not even give

post numbers

.

I imagine this makes it difficult for you later on to interpret them, and so you are certainly correct that it makes it more difficult for anybody else to figure out what went on.

The bolded part is precisely my issue too. I actually thought mathcam was being sarcastic by posting naked figures with no support or reasoning with them. I don't think that now, though; I just don't see the point of the post at all.

I don't keep written notes (other than the pbpas I post in the thread from time to time) but I am starting to think I ought to.

[Bookitty]

@CTD:

I'm not all that sure of my reads given my fiasco of yesterday. I am waiting to hear more from Undo or mathcam or anything of substance from Untrod Tripod and I need to do a comprehensive reread incorporating the knowledge that LML was scum, which I probably won't have time for before the weekend. I don't feel good about Undo, but that could be OMGUS from yesterday. Mathcam hasn't provided any solid reads, in my opinion. I thought his response with the naked numbers and no justification was intended to be sarcastic. He hasn't said so, though, so I am at a loss as to what he meant by doing that. Not what the figures meant, but what Mathcam meant. I would like an explanation for that. I thought he would explain it in the thread, but since he hasn't done so yet:

@Mathcam:

Why did you post your plus and minus numbers in the way that you did? Did you think it would be helpful to PJ in some way? What was your motivation for doing so in that way?

In regard to the argument between DGB and ABR, I don't agree that town would know that someone else was town. Neither ABR nor DGB have made very compelling cases on each other and both have unique playstyles that make it difficult to determine whether they are town or scum in any particular game. That said, I have played with DGB enough to lean town on her. I have never been able to read ABR, especially not in the early part of games.

In short, CTD, I'll vote when I'm ready.

[Bookitty]

No, again, not what I meant.

I believe (and PJ can correct me if I am wrong) that PJ wanted to see the numbers posted with some sort of explanation. Posting the numbers by themselves is meaningless and seems like a sarcastic response to me. If someone said, "Bookitty, why do you think DGB is town?" and I responded by quoting the post where she says, "I'm town," that's a sarcastic response and one that tells nothing about motivation, what I saw or what is really going on.

Posting the naked numbers without an explanation is useless. I think you know that. So I'm asking why you didn't just say, "I don't keep that kind of detailed notes," rather than posting something you ought to have known would be useless or nearly so.

Just because PJ asked you to is not an adequate explanation of why you'd go against your better judgment to post that. I thought you were irritated with him and did it somewhat out of spite, which I could see as a townie response. Your later postings, though, seem to indicate that isn't the case.

So again, what was your motivation for doing that in that way?

[Bookitty]

DGB has done the same in games in which she was town, if I recall correctly. It's certainly not a huge red flag for me.

When Mathcam did post his reads, which was in a different post, I felt that he gave very weak reads on most people. He's justified that with the 40 percent comment, if you recall. The two issues are separate. The first may be playstyle. I've never played with mathcam that I recall and I don't know if this is how he always plays.

The reasoning behind posting the figures naked and without comment (which I just don't believe he thought was what PJ was asking him for) is something else and may shed some light on his motivations for me. If you don't think it's relevant or useful, then just ignore it. I, however, still want to know why.

EBWOP: Okay. I thought you were being sarcastic/exasperated. Your failure to admit it was bugging me, but I'm ready to drop it now.

[Bookitty]

@Undo:

Mathcam and I were your top suspects yesterday if I recall correctly. Yet, in your analysis, you've sort of glossed over both him and me with minimal comment so far. This seems odd given your suspicions and vote yesterday. (Yes, I'm asking you to comment on Mathcam and on me.)

Have your other opinions and suspicions changed materially since yesterday? What specifically has DGB done to move her to the top of your list?

EBWOP: I'm so sorry, InHimShallIBe. That's suckage

[Bookitty]

Most important first:

@DGB:

I am keeping good thoughts for you. As someone who has been dazzled by the accuracy of the scumputer, I respect you as a canny player. But you're also a friend. So please take care of yourself.

I'm going to do a reread this weekend (I may have said this before). I like MBL's posting and I was already suspicious of Undo, but I want to check on some things for myself.

[Bookitty]

Okay, I completed my reread up to the point where LML posts his VCA. I have a huge list of notes that I can post if people want to see how I derived my viewpoints. It's HUGE though, and I won't be cleaning it up, but it's readable to me and I think it can be understood. I only focused on interactions with LML and about him, and only the ones that I thought were important.

My suspicions of Undo are apparently not all based on OMGUS, which is something I was checking for. DGB looks significantly worse too, because of some RVS voting. MBL looks town to me on my reread; Green Crayons too. LML's defense of VitaminR is off somehow. Untrod Tripod's Post 306 is oddly noncommittal; he doesn't recall? More suspicious of chamber now. Mathcam stays on my list because of inconsistency in recent posts, but I don't think I saw any meaningful incriminating information in MafiaSSK's posts at the start of the game.

My primary reasons for voting Undo have to do with LML's attack on ABR based on Undo's "legitimate question" and Undo's questioning of ABR about their LML votes. He asks ABR repeatedly why he's voting LML and hunts that line of questioning much longer than I think is reasonable.

VOTE: Undo

If you don't mind reading my notes, I'll be happy to post them. Remember, you were warned.

[Bookitty]

@GreenCrayons

InHim is being replaced.

[Bookitty]

Looking for a replacement for inHimshallibe.

[Bookitty]

My primary reasons for voting Undo have to do with LML's attack on ABR based on Undo's "legitimate question" and Undo's questioning of ABR about their LML votes. He asks ABR repeatedly why he's voting LML and hunts that line of questioning much longer than I think is reasonable.

I'm interested in what specific posts you're referring to.

Excerpts from my notes:

Undo questions ABR's vote on LML in post 96.

LML's Post 110. He quotes the post in which Undo questioned ABR's vote on LML. Then quotes STD's later vote on undo for questioning ABR's vote on LML. Then votes STD. " At every turn. I dislike Albert's lack of.. well... anything. He has not seem to be scumhunting whatsoever, and if he is, he is not sharing any analysis thus far. What's more telling, however, was Undo asking a legitimate question, and STD running to defend Albert's lack of substance. Strangely, MafiaSSK's response to Save The Dragon's post is similar to mine. There's something here, in this exchange, and I think I know where to start." Votes STD. Asks ABR about ABR's vote, asks Undo about the previous wagons on MafiaSSK (mathcam) and Tigris (Kublai Khan).

Undo in post 204: quotes ABR: "I believe in the LML wagon." Undo: "Why?"

Post 213, ABR: "LML, good choice, lock and load"

Undo requotes his question from post 204 in post 220. ABR responds: "His (LML's) votes don't inspire trust."

Post 246, Undo continues to question ABR about his LML vote.

LML's post 302. Jabs at ABR, ad hominem. Muddled response to Yos's question: "Yos, going back to the opening page,
my first post was a dice roll (myself) and the second post was a re-roll. Tigris was the vote in RVS. I didn't move it to begin with because of Tigris's hop on MafiaSSK for being the third person to vote on a wagon, twice. I kept my vote on Tigris instead of moving it because (a) no one, at the moment, was more suspicious and (b) my vote was there already. I know this may not make any sense, but my suspicion of Tigris would have not have warranted a vote at the time... but since my vote was already there, I kept it there. It would have warranted a FoS."
Continues saying STD is scum.
Also, in tangential regard to Undo, states this: "It sucks to admit, but I'm kinda feeling like I've lost a step. Like I'm not nearly as good at this game as I used to be." (Need to check if Undo catches this AtE) He never did, so it makes it look like he's just cherrypicking his dislike of AtE to suit his voting needs.

I think that's all of it.

[Bookitty]

My notes are at home and I am at work, but I'm still very okay with my Undo vote. I stopped right before the LML/PJ fight, but before that I don't think I had anything bad against PJ in terms of interaction with LML. I'll check later tonight though.

[Bookitty]

UNVOTE:

I don't have time for a reread right now. I will look at my notes when I get home, but for now:

VOTE: mathcam

[Bookitty]

I'm sticking with mathcam for now, but I do have a comment and then a question:

I think Chamber is town for this (from my notes):

Chamber's Post 320: "I'm not really sure how I feel. There have certainly been some things that bothered me. I've refrained from speaking about them because I'm hoping town LML will self correct when/if he stops being pressured so much."

I see no way that scum-Chamber would go out of his way to call scumbuddy LML town in this way. It's way too obvious and it would be just as easy to indicate a null-read that wouldn't cause problems later in the game.

So my question is this: Chamber, do you feel that CES has been following your votes to an unusual degree in this game? Or is this normal meta for him when you play together?

[Bookitty]

To put it in context, the above quote is in response to VitaminR who was attacking LML just before that and asked Chamber what he thought.

The only really weird thing I found in my notes about VitaminR (who I have as attacking LML all through the game, pretty much) is this:

Post 343, LML: "I think anyone who is looking to create a correlation between me and VitR is acting certainly scummy and may very well be trying to domino lynches. Although he's attacking me, I currently have a pro-town read on VitR. Knowing my alignment, I believe that anyone who is trying to say "they can't have the same alignment" are not only pushing for a lynch of me today, but will also be pushing for a lynch of VitR after I flip blue."

I thought that was odd on the reread, but I have no meta on LML and it looks like deliberate WIFOM to me.

[Bookitty]

@Bookitty, you haven't mentioned Glork today. What's your take on him?

I continue to think Glork is town. His exasperation, sarcasm and general grouchy demeanour completely corresponds to my meta of him as town. He also does a town leader thing that I haven't seen here, but that may be a factor of the size of the game and the number of competing voices. I think Glork is much less abrasive and much more "let's discuss things. Why do you think that?" when he's scum. If you have a different meta on him, I'm listening, but that's what I see.

@Mathcam:

I did think you were town; that was predicated on me thinking LML was a powerrole. You were voting me, and I was supporting you in that vote to avoid outing the powerrole I thought LML had. In retrospect with the knowledge that LML was scum, your "if we lose a VT, we lose a VT" attitude and dismissive handwaving over LML suspicions looks different to me.

[Bookitty]

Also, while I think of it, did Untrod Tripod's Post 1677 influence your read on him at all, mathcam?

[Bookitty]

I am not voting Glork.

If I absolutely have to, I will vote DGB to avoid no-lynch. I think she's more likely than Glork to flip scum, and I'm not going to be able to read her any better in this game than I have in the past.

I'm checking in here, but I'm also on a writing deadline. I can post my notes on interactions with LML up through the VCA as I offered earlier as that won't take any real time. But I'm not going to jump to a fourth wagon when there are already three in play.

[Bookitty]

UNVOTE: mathcam
VOTE: DrippingGoofball

[Bookitty]

Yeah, I just added that up for myself.

[Bookitty]

Well, I'm a little late to the party, but I think I can offer a decent defense on my own behalf. I don't know why you're asking other people to defend me, that just seems weird.

I was voting mathcam all day. I only left mathcam when it became clear that he wasn't going to be lynched and I tried to vote DGB to avoid Glork's lynch, who was one of only two confident townreads I had. Unfortunately, everyone had already moved to Glork.

So your "late vote on mathcam" isn't correct. My late vote was on DGB. On Day One, my late vote was on LML.

I find mathcam's 'I'm going to look at Yos2' thing really scummy, too. It's like every new day he abandons all his previous suspicions and goes looking somewhere else.

I'll support your wagon on mathcam. I don't really know about VitaminR. I know Glork thought KK pushed a crap case on him, but I have to look at it again to see if it's legitimately scummy or just wrong.

I want DGB to boot up the scumputer. I also don't understand MBL's point and hope he answers GC's questions more clearly than he's done so far.

[Bookitty]

I love the scumputer.

@DGB: On the last premise, it doesn't matter if mathcam is scum or not, right? It's just the distribution on the wagon regardless of alignment, that's correct?

[Bookitty]

I don't know. I would think five or six originally and one down, but I could be wrong.

[Bookitty]

I do not remember now why I was thinking VitaminR was town, but I remember thinking it.

From my notes on interactions with LML prior to the VCA:

VitaminR votes LML and they get into a debate (LML: Can't I find two people scummy? VitaminR: Your two main suspects just happen to be the two leading wagons? Weird!). ABR votes LML in post 88. Serious vote.

Yosarian2 votes VitaminR and quotes the post in which he votes LML.

Post 104, Glork (now known town) says to VitaminR: "You voted LML specifically referencing his Post 62 in which you suggest that he's setting up the groundwork to switch from one wagon to the other. At the same time, you ignore that PJ did essentially the same thing, only by asking questions and using pretty formatting instead. It was an interesting contrast."

VitaminR disagrees in post 105. "At least the way I read it, pj's post, and the subsequent votes, turned the MafiaSSK wagon into a major thing. That's a big difference. What I didn't like about LML's post is that it left him free to pursue two wagons with significant support behind them."

Post 109, Yosarian2 explains his vote on VitaminR as the result of VR's defense of MafiaSSK (Mathcam). He doesn't mention the LML-vote, so that's probably not relevant.

Untrod Tripod (now known town) says this in Post 143: "I like VitaminR and LML for scum. I'm not really feeling Tigris as scum anymore (that was mostly shameless bandwagoning though) and I REALLY am not feeling SSK for scum atm"

ABR, post 195, uncharacteristic long post: "VitaminR's defense of the two leading wagons is legit, his suspicion of LML is warranted, and he's on the right track. Yosarian's assertion that the only reason why VitaminR would come to the defense of mafiaSSK and Tigras is because he knows their alignments, is misleading. The fact that Green Crayons references Yosarian's post confounds the issue. I believe in the LML wagon. VitaminR has my support."

Sotty7, post 207, responding to VitaminR's comment:
VitaminR: "My whole point was that the wagons were particularly weak and that LML is not the type of player to just go with the crowd."
Sotty7: "This is actually the most important point of all on LML in my opinion. He slipped his suspicion in there and it just so happened to match both of the current trending wagons at the time. It just didn't feel right at all. Not very natural."

Untrod Tripod, post 212, responding to Glork about where his vote would be if he had to make a non-self-vote: "either LML or VitR" (Odd because VitaminR is pushing the LML wagon)

Undo requotes his question from post 204 in post 220. ABR responds: "His (LML's) votes don't inspire trust."

ABR votes PJ, leaving LML. Encourages VitaminR to do the same. In post 253, "Eh, the LML wagon is finally building up a little bit. I like to keep the pressure up at least until he actually contributes a little bit more."

CTD, now known town, post 277, regarding VitaminR's pressure vote on LML: "How much is "a little bit more"? While trying to keep pressure on an undercontributing player is pro-town, the wording of this post indicates that LML doesn't have to do a whole lot more than just show up for you to move your vote, giving me the impression that you're keeping it there more for appearance than actual pressure."

Post 279, immediate response from VitaminR: "I wasn't really talking about you as much there, but I get your point. I'm not so sure what you're responding to with the second part of this, though. I'm well aware of the fact that my impression of you so far could be entirely wrong-headed. You went along easily with two pretty weak wagons. I pressured you on it and you immediately back off the Tigris vote (I get that you're saying now that your Tigris vote was still sort of a random vote, but Post 62 and Post 70 didn't sound that way and you only started saying that after I pressured you). Then you switch to an StD vote, based on one exchange with undo and some vote-hopping of his you illustrate, while ignoring the majority of the content he's posted. It doesn't exactly inspire confidence." (note that this echoes ABR's reason for voting LML "His votes don't inspire confidence.")

LML deflects VitR: "To be completely fair again, a LOT of people went alone with two weak wagons. Hell, some of the people you've quite ignored have actually BEEN on 3 or 4 wagons thus far. Why have they earned a pass from you?" Sniping back and forth.

Post 286, ABR: "Kill LML"; Post 288, Untrod Tripod: "I'm not trying to back off my VitR or LML reads there. I still feel strongly about those."

Yos asks for an explanation for LML regarding his stance on the Tigris wagon. Also, post 290, at UT, "Are you implying that you think VitR and LML are scum together? That doesn't feel likely to me at this point."

VitaminR addresses LML in post 316: "See, I don't really feel like you are actively scumhunting. You haven't really explained your StD suspicions in detail and you're ignoring most of the content he's posted (he's one of the more active players in the game)."

his is ODD: Post 343, LML: "I think anyone who is looking to create a correlation between me and VitR is acting certainly scummy and may very well be trying to domino lynches. Although he's attacking me, I currently have a pro-town read on VitR. Knowing my alignment, I believe that anyone who is trying to say "they can't have the same alignment" are not only pushing for a lynch of me today, but will also be pushing for a lynch of VitR after I flip blue."

Untrod Tripod, now known town. defends against this by restating: "I don't recall saying I thought they were scum together. They're independent reads, and if we flip one as scum then I will reevaluate my reads on the game."

Things in quotes are quotes; everything else is my opinion as I was reading or in retrospect.

I think that some of the early back-and-forth could have been distancing. LML's comment about them definitely not being scum together is just weird and I don't understand it at all. It seems too obvious if they were scumbuddies, but I'm not sure why he would say that if they weren't, either.

I notice I didn't put post numbers on some of this, but I can find them if they are needed. The worst thing to me is VitaminR using almost the exact words ABR used in pushing the LML wagon to justify VR's vote on that wagon.

tl;dr: I see the point behind the suspicion of VitaminR. I still prefer a mathcam lynch, but I think it's possible both are scum.

EBWOP: DGB, does this take into account people not voting and people on off wagons? I still need to reread after the VCA and Day Two and I haven't done that yet, but I remember people with one or two votes on them even during the big wagons. I don't know if that actually affects anything, though.

[Bookitty]

As Glork pointed out, it looked like you selected LML out of several players who had done the same thing and accused LML over those other players. LML echoed Glork's argument without attribution later on to defend himself against you.

To me, restating someone else's argument as part of your own without noting where it came from looks like borrowed justification for a vote on a scum partner.

Why are you certain that CES is town?

[Bookitty]

Did you subtract the negative points on the final result, DGB? I'm trying to work out how you figured it.

[Bookitty]

I did an Excel spreadsheet based on your previous figures and came up with some different results. Some are the same, though, so either your math is wrong or mine is.

[Bookitty]

STD 60.2
Sotty7 56.7
CES 55.4
GreenCrayons 43.2
ABR 37.5
chamber 36.3
KK 35.3
Porochaz 35.1
mathcam 34.1
Yosarian2 29.5
Bookitty 29.3
MBL 18.1
VitaminR 14.9
DGB 11.4

I have mathcam with one more 18.2 than you do. I didn't carry out decimal points past one, and mine is wrong too:

4.5 +18 +11 +16 +10 =50.5 by your figures - 19 =31.5, right?

[Bookitty]

er, I don't know where I got the 18. My head is pounding from math anyway. I think I was looking at mathcam.

4.5 +11.4 +6.7 +16 +10 = (using a calculator): 48.6 - 19.3 = 29.3

[Bookitty]

I was not on the 18.2 wagon, DGB.

And @VitaminR: I haven't done a reread since the VCA and Day Two; I'm going to have to do that soon, but I'm not sure when I'll have time right now. Hopefully over the weekend. But I prefer a mathcam lynch to you because I feel more certain he's scum. I just don't like some of the things I see and I'm going to call them out when I see them.

[Bookitty]

I have seen the scumputer catch scum before. I think I have a better handle on how it works now, having done some of the calculations myself.

That said, I think we need more scum flips before it's going to be really accurate. Also, it isn't taking into account that there have been wagons on mathcam and myself (and to a lesser degree KK). I know this doesn't help me, but I think having a big wagon on you ought to be factored in somehow. Some wagons are on scum, who generally won't be voting themselves. PJ and Undo are town, Yosarian2 is my most confident townread, and I have some others who have established pretty good towncred in my eyes, so it's already narrowed down pretty significantly for me.

I'm going to go with my own suspicions today and

VOTE: mathcam

[Bookitty]

@MOD:

Can we please have a prod on Kublai Khan? He hasn't posted yet this game day.

Also:

@Kublai Khan:

Who are your top suspicions now that Glork has flipped town?

[Bookitty]

Okay, I'm going to take a stab at explaining the scumputer. DGB can critique it after.

This is Scum A. A pretty ordinary scum.



This is Scum A's lovely scum family. Johnny plays baseball!



This is a wagon:



These are two wagons:



Scum A doesn't want his family all getting on the same wagon with him. So he tells his lovely scum wife and his scum husband to get on one wagon, and tells his scum kids to get on the other. Scum A may walk (not vote) or may find a wagon of his own.

This is called the scum distribution ratio, which says that scum will be fairly evenly distributed on competing wagons and will attempt not to draw attention to themselves by all piling onto one.

Larger wagons are likely to have two or more scum. Smaller ones may only attract one. Little Johnny, the baseball player, for instance, may have a little red wagon all his own to ride on. But the theory is that scum won't all pile onto one wagon together, and they won't stay off wagons either.

By eliminating the known town members from a particular wagon, you can sometimes identify scum on those wagons by pure process of elimination. Otherwise, you're looking at statistical probabilities for any given group on a wagon; i.e., one of three, two of four of these players is probably scum.

So, how'd I do, DGB?

[Bookitty]

I have seen it work in later stages of the game. The issues I have with it right now are:

1) it's not taking into account associative tells
2) it assumes optimal scum play, or at least expected scum play
3) it doesn't include the possibility that some defused wagons were on scum, which would skew the results

I think it's worthwhile; I just don't think it's conclusive without further scum flips.

[Bookitty]

@Mathcam:

Are you working on analysis and scumhunting? Do you have any reads at this point that you could share?

[Bookitty]

I feel like I'm getting attacked a lot for my playstyle for a game in which every other player's idiosyncrasies are swept under the run for "being their meta." I try very hard to figure out everyone's alignment -- good or bad, I'm just not as successful as most others in believing I have done so. I don't typically push that hard for my lynches, but I listen when other people make their cases, and evaluate whether or not I think that case has merit.

I've made points again UT and glork in just my last couple of posts, and I've pushed ABR today as hard as I remember pushing anyone, and it's gotten absolutely zero traction. Part of this is because he refuses to even acknowledge a case is being made against him, and part of the reason for that is because no one expects him to. He has literally the most brilliant meta I've ever seen anyone concoct. So when you accuse me of not pushing that wagon hard, or that I don't case who gets lynched because I've gone so many posts without pushing my wagon (which is in itself unfair -- I try to contribute to other discussions as well), this is largely because there's nothing more I can push without someone backing me up to put pressure on ABR, or a response from ABR himself. One man does not a wagon make.

Can anyone else confirm that this is mathcam's town meta?

I did an ISO of mathcam and found these:

Rereading LML, I can't say that I've found anything unusually scummy from him. I will say that his posting style has always left me feeling a little uncomfortable, but I'm pretty sure that this has happened as both town and scum. I will note that out of my entire read, there was no instances in which I marked him down with a particularly pro-town vote. He'd probably be in my top-5-scummiest.

Well, kudos to those of you who called it on LML -- I really didn't see it.

As to the "didn't really see it" line, I meant exactly that -- other people seemed to find him extraordinarily scummy, and it appears they were right. I saw nothing definitively scummy from him, but instead a rather neutral level of scumminess that still rose to the top (the top 5) by virtue of a lot of other people appearing townish.

What's missing for me on most of your posted reads is a reason why. You even said it yourself:

Here's a rough organization of my reads. I'm not sure I can justify every single one of them.

When PJ called you out on your system of little +1s and -1s, you essentially said that you had meant that reference rhetorically. Yet you still posted a series of little +1s and -1s that don't seem to correspond in any meaningful way with your stated reads. Either it's rhetorical, in which case I'd expect you to say so, or it's actual, in which case I would like to know how those help you in determining and remembering who is scum and who is town?

To paraphrase in MY words what you have said, {I think LML is probably scum, but you know, my reads are constantly evolving, but I'm going to put my vote down here, but I think he's in the top five scummiest, there's nothing pro-town, but I don't have anything really scummy to share}. At that point, your vote lands on the biggest wagon that isn't LML and you THEN say you didn't see the case on LML after the fact? What happened to top-five scummiest there?

That said, I'll take another look at LML (and maybe PJ, though maybe not as I like watching ABR get worked up). In the meantime, people should feel free to

lynch BooKitty without me

.

This, though, pings my scumdar the hardest now that I know LML's alignment (and I am pretty sure of PJ's and ABR's). It looks as though you're trying to avoid responsibility for my lynch (see the bolded) while setting up your suspicions of PJ and ABR for the next day.

So yes, I'm interested in your reads WITH REASONS. I didn't personally find doing ISOs helpful because context matters a lot in this game, but even that is preferable to reads without reasons that are essentially equivalent to gut.

[Bookitty]

Wall of text and quotes incoming. Feel free to shield your eyes.

I meant identifying a cop as in a note-to-self to give their opinions extra weight -- how she got this read on ABR I haven't the foggiest (but yet again is an example of how letting ABR get away with his meta benefits him to the occasional expense of others). On the other hand, outing the cop is publicly posting this suspicion. I find both of the steps of DGB's process in this instance to be pretty indefensible.

I really can't decide between ABR and DGB -- I find aspects of both of their play mysterious, and yet both present this nagging doubt that they wouldn't have played this way had they been scum. Too bad we can't lynch both.

In response to this:

I don't think I've seen DGB simply acquiesce to being lynched as either alignment. The impression I got from her "I give up" post is that it worked for Bookie, so it might just work for her.

You say this:

Hm. That does not seem an unreasonable argument.

I feel like I actually have very few presented facts. DGB has skyrocketed in scumminess today, and ABR I had as leaning scum coming in to the day. They both have done demonstrably anti-town things today, whereas my other suspicions just have occasional things that set off my scumometer. I guess I wouldn't say that I'm not open to other lynches, but I am feeling good about lynching DGB/ABR at the moment.

I agree. There's something very off-feeling about the way ABR jumped from me to DGB. He attributes this to rage at being turned against, but I think it's bald opportunism.

To be fair, there are reasons it's so easy. If we were bandwagoning DGB yesterday because of her unique playstyle, I would've agreed it was a suspiciously easy bandwagon. At the moment, however, her play is riddled with anti-town behavior.

These last two statements are just gut. I want to know if that's how you play: just using gut feelings?

At the start of Day Two you had this:

In any case, I've updated my list significantly given new information. Here's a rough organization of my reads. I'm not sure I can justify every single one of them.

Probably pro-town: Chamber, Sotty, StD, inhim, PJ, Yos
Slight pro-town read: MBL, KK, GC, VitR, Glork
Not sure: CTD, DGB
Slight scum: UT, undo, CES, BooKitty
Leaning scum: ABR, porochaz

Later on, before the undo-PJ mason claim, you said this:

I don't get all the undo hate at all. When I display posts by user: undo, I see a lot of contributions. And I lol'd at

I’m not going to apologize for my playstyle. If you find me difficult to read, try harder.

In general, I hate this "surface reading" argument as a scumtell. I don't think undo's doing it, and when people do, I attribute it more to laziness than scumminess.

What changed your mind on undo in the intervening time?

Can you point me to some posts in which you pushed your case on Glork, since you bring it up? How about UT?

To me, it looks like all of your arguments (except the one on ABR, whom I now feel is town – by the way, feel free to ask me for my REASONS) are easily retractable if your target flips town. Putting down clear reasons is part of sharing your thought process with the town. You lament that you don't get traction on your cases. I think it's because you haven't really made any compelling cases at all.

I would welcome a response that includes the posts that most effectively demonstrate your pushing of the cases you believe in other than ABR.

I still would like information on any meta that confirms mathcam's statement that this is how he generally plays.

[Bookitty]

When Mathcam did post his reads, which was in a different post, I felt that he gave very weak reads on most people. He's justified that with the 40 percent comment, if you recall. The two issues are separate. The first may be playstyle. I've never played with mathcam that I recall and I don't know if this is how he always plays.

I posted this on June 19, I believe. It's not an outright question, admittedly, but I believed that if this was your normal playstyle others would have commented on it. That hasn't happened. Now I'm asking outright. That's not attacking you for your playstyle, that's asking if, in fact, it IS your playstyle.

If this is your normal playstyle, i.e., presenting weak cases and waiting to see if others will agree and jump on with you, then I find it indistinguishable from scum.

Scum do exactly that. For instance, take Scum A from my previous diagram. He looks at ABR, who has a distinctive playstyle and can look like an easy target. Scum A says, "I find ABR scummy because (reason)." Then he waits.

If Town A and B bite, then maybe Scum B will jump on too and now we have a wagon! Wheee!

If no one takes him up on it, though, Scum A might repeat his point or he might let it lie and move on to another target.

Your behaviour looks like that behaviour. I am asking for playstyle meta from people who have played with you because I'm a sucker for appeals to emotion and I wanted any evidence that could clear you out there. But that's where I sit right now.

[Bookitty]

I already am.

[Bookitty]

I'm not on board with lynching chamber. I have a moderate town-read on him, primarily based on his I-don't-give-a-fuckitude and what looks to me like pretty honest admitting of confusion. There was something else, too, that I thought cleared him but I can't look it up just now.

I think that mathcam might be town. I still haven't gotten confirmation on this being his town meta, and I haven't had time to meta him for myself. I get the impression that mathcam thinks I'm asking him to meta himself; I'm not. I'm asking OTHERS for confirmation or rebuttal that this is his playstyle. While some of his actions fit the scum-scenario I lined out earlier, I'm not so sure about others. I still want those reads. I'm willling to wait for them.

I'm pretty sure ABR is town, sure that Yos is. I won't have time to reread the game today or tomorrow, and I have outlined my issues with VitaminR earlier. So I'm going to do this:

UNVOTE: mathcam
VOTE: VitaminR

I'll be checking the thread today, but I'm on a deadline so I may not be too active today or tomorrow. If you have questions directed at me, please bold them so I don't miss them.

[Bookitty]

@VitaminR

: Can you link me to the detailed response to my points to which I failed to respond?

[Bookitty]

Okay. I just finished 25,000 words of OMGIWISHIWASDEAD.

So I'm going to read the game and catch up.

Sorry for my absence.

I am willing to lynch CES as lurkerscum. I think chamber is town. I asked chamber if he thought CES was acting odd earlier and he said that he's maybe a little more sheepy and followy. I can find that interaction if you want, but the upshot is, I would be fine with a CES lynch today.

[Bookitty]

@MOD:

Could we have a vote count, please?

I checked on the deadline, which is July 15.

At last vote count, there were three-person wagons on Cogito Ergo Sum, Save the Dragons, VitaminR and chamber. (I think ABR took his vote off VitaminR and put it on me since that, though; by the way, OMGUS, Albert :p ) Chamber's wagon is completely composed of our two masons and is certainly town-driven. I'd prefer to avoid the last minute scramble, so I'll say I'm willing to vote VitaminR (I currently am), CES and mathcam. I'm willing to look at others if it helps us reach a consensus.

@CES: VitaminR has defended you and has explained why you have not defended him in the thread. Do you agree that VitaminR has presented an accurate picture of the situation?

I still think Yos is town. I have good townie vibes for MrBuddyLee, Green Crayons, DGB, ABR and chamber as well. Masons are obvtown. Save the Dragons and Sotty7 are not as high on my town list. Anyone not listed in this paragraph is either scummy or needs to post more. Chamber needs to post more even though he is listed.

I still have to get to a question VitaminR asked me. I meant to do this yesterday but instead I fell asleep. I haven't forgotten, but it may need to wait until this evening.

[Bookitty]

Bookitty also has a town read on me as far as I know.

This is correct.

[Bookitty]

At a guess, reaction testing? There was something about one of me, VitaminR or mathcam being scum, but I didn't pay all that much attention because PoE doesn't really help me figure out who is scum.

Is it important that I understand why he's voting me?

EBWOP: Or that, I guess. I don't understand that logic, though.

[Bookitty]

Yes. I would also point out that the last time chamber and I played with Vitamax, we got him mislynched.

Is it accurate to say that you generally can't read VitaminR as town or scum?

@Chamber:

Basically same question, but I want to expand it to include CES too. I'm really tired and I might be misremembering the exact reply, but I remember asking you about CES and you saying that he was basically in line with what you know as his town play and that maybe he was a little more sheepy.

Is that still true for you? Do you feel you have a solid read on CES or VitaminR? If so, what is your read on them at this point?

I need to reread STD but that's not going to happen tonight. I will make an effort over the weekend. I know I have notes on him too from before but I'm just too tired to deal with that tonight.

[Bookitty]

See this guy?



He looks stupid and scummy, right?

Like the village idiot (VI), to put it mildly.

But he might not be scum. We should probably vote him anyway, though, so he doesn't get to LYLO and dumb it up when it counts.

"All Aboard for the VI Wagon."

[Bookitty]

Mathcam, I'm gonna take back some of the things I said about you. This is really good.

I do have a question: Did you rule out some people based on too close an association (VitaminR-CES is the one that comes to mind for me)? Or is it only based on your view of their conflicts?

[Bookitty]

I am unconvinced that either DrippingGoofball or Sotty7 is scum. I also don't think mathcam is scum now, but other things are more important at the moment.

I feel like DGB is playing precisely in line with my town-meta of her; in past games in which she has flipped scum, she has been more strategic (see Mafia 70 Traditional) and more hesitant in making firm stands. She also doesn't bring out the Scumputer so early in my experience. TownDGB is an assertive and aggressive advocate of her own opinions, right or wrong.

Sotty7 seems to me to be overwhelmed with the sheer amount of reading required in this game. I accused her earlier of not even reading the game, but I think I was probably wrong. I think it's just difficult for people to keep up and keep things straight. This is a gut read, but I think it's as valid as anyone else's gut read being used to vote her.

I could be wrong on either of them. I guess if these are the two choices available, I would go with the DGB lynch over Sotty7. I'll move my vote to make sure we have a lynch, but I'm not happy with the two available wagons.

I've pretty well filed STD in town for his Post 285. On a reread, he seems pretty interested in scumhunting and nothing I've seen since then has made him more suspicious to me. His move from Seolwagon (now me) to LML doesn't look like considered bussing but ongoing wagoning. Real life responsibilities and issues at work are making it difficult for me to do a full reread, but I would categorize STD as town based on a quick review of my earlier notes and a look at his ISO.

Sticking with my VitaminR vote for now.

[Bookitty]

@DGB:

Can you give me a brief rundown on the case on Sotty7? Is it just her position at the top of the charts?

Meh, I'm going to try to allot time this afternoon to do a real reread on her. But if anyone can explain it to me, I'd appreciate it.

[Bookitty]

How are you so sure that Sotty7 is scum compared with, say, VitaminR for whom I'm currently voting? Because I don't see it, myself. I'm asking you to explain it to me like I'm five.

I'm NOT HAPPY with the two choices currently available. I would vote CES over either of you too, just based on lack of participation and worries that he's lurkscum coasting to the end of the game on chamber's coat tails.

Actually, my vote is doing precisely nothing where it is. I want to go a third way.

VOTE: Cogito Ergo Sum

[Bookitty]

Yes. I agree with these points:

Mathcam is not scum. His recent postings make that pretty clear.
I don't have meta for LML, but I buy the idea that he would put some actual scum in his scumlist for flavouring. That seems normal scum play.

I still think CES is more likely to be scum, but I retract my statement about voting you over Sotty7.

[Bookitty]

I'm having some serious issues at work (not personally, but several people I like and work with are being let go). I'm currently on the leading CES wagon, and I would also be willing to move to VitaminR. I'm not lynching Yos today. I will be around before but not precisely at deadline, so I will do my best to ensure a lynch today.

[Bookitty]

Right now I think I'm sad that we aren't lynching bookitty.

Right now I'm sad that you're on a wagon that apparently started after the last time I was able to check the thread on Sunday. You do know that we're on a deadline, right?

[Bookitty]

I had some unexpected activities this weekend and haven't had much time to myself. Without rereading the last few pages (something I will do later today) I'm good with an STD lynch based on DGB's process-of-elimination and with an OGML lynch based on what I remember to be truly dreadful tunneling on DGB earlier today.

Sorry about the lack of posting, I'll catch up later today.

[Bookitty]

Bookitty is keeping a low profile, I'd like to see more of her.

I'm hoping to catch up today. As I said, my boss and several of my colleagues are being let go. That means at my work I'm being tasked with figuring out how to do their jobs and my own, requiring extensive meetings. At home, I'm dealing with emotionally supporting my boss and my colleagues while my non-work friends and family are trying to cheer me up.

I will have time later today to reread, but for now you can consider my vote to be on STD (I'd equally happily vote OGML) pending Juls having the time to read over the game.

@Juls: You're conftown mason with two buddies who have been here throughout the game. I think they can probably give you the information you need in nighttalk if you want to let us go to night without finishing your reread.

[Bookitty]

@Juls: I have expressly not voted STD at your request. I have not indicated that I wouldn't respect your wishes in this regard; I stated that I thought it might be more beneficial for the REST of town if we had some actual movement and momentum. I still did not vote, despite this opinion. So I don't understand why you said this:

I also didn't like Bookitty basically saying she wouldn't wait for me to catch up.

I AM waiting for you to catch up, despite my own wish to see this game progress at faster than a snail's pace. Ironically, it's probably helpful for me personally to delay due to my stupid work issues and stress associated with them.

Please consider my vote to be on STD.

HYPO-VOTE: STD.

If we are waiting anyway, I guess it doesn't matter if we also wait for an OGML replacement. I still think that slot is scum though.

[Bookitty]

I'm going to be busy for much of today, so I'm going to make that hypo vote a real one to make sure we can lynch today if that's the decision.

VOTE: Save the Dragons

[Bookitty]

I'm not willing to vote for mathcam given his posting over the last game day or two.

I won't vote Yos until we've heard from him, but I think Juls' case at least merits looking at and I want to hear more from her. I hadn't put those things together like that. I would like to hear the thought process behind those moves from Yos himself. It's possible I just don't want to give up my Yos townread; I was so sure of it earlier in the game.

I also want to hear from ChannelDeliBird after he's read the game; OGML's weird tunneling on DGB and then his replace out seemed scummy to me, though, and I'm not sure what would overcome that for me at this point.

I'll be around on and off this weekend; not absent enough for V/LA, though.

[Bookitty]

@Undo:

I was swayed by Post 2218 and Post 2223.

I just did a reread on his ISO since then, though, and I have a couple of questions:

So I like the Sotty wagon still -- as we scramble to find the most approved of wagon, I think I would still be fine with VitR or CES. I personally don't think DGB is likely to be scum, just because of all of the outrageous plays she's made (e.g., most recently approving of the vig killing a townie). But PJ's conviction that she really could be scum and pulling these crazy plays is somewhat compelling. I think I'd be able to sleep at night after a DGB lynch too.

@mathcam:

Do you still think VitaminR is the most likely scum? (all others on the potential most approved of wagon list you gave are or were town.)

In Post 2172, MBL asked you why you avoided comment on his STD case since you had STD on your never-lynch list. You responded with: "Yeah, I probably should've done that. I guess I didn't think my input was necessary. I thought you made a pretty decent argument which I'll even admit to causing me to waver on my STD stance. Then he responded, and the response felt pretty good to me too. Net score: Slight town boost for you, maybe a slight scum boost for STD, but not enough to rock the foundation of my stance on either of you" in Post 2194.

I don't really understand the evolution of your read on STD. Can you explain that a bit more, please? Was it solely based on your "most likely scumteam" pairings?

I agree that chamber needs back away from defending DGB. Unless you're absolutely sure DGB is town -- if there's any doubt -- let DGB navigate her way through the conversation, even if it's unfair or a trap. You should be as excited to get an even better read on DGB (or Yos!) than you already have. Stopping this discussion has no benefit.

This seems to indicate that you are certain that Chamber is town. Are you?

[Bookitty]

Okay. Work has been kicking my butt this week, but I'm going to weigh in on a couple of things:

MBL, I'm pretty sure you're town. But I am more sure that ABR is town. I also think GC is town, so the field of possible scum is pretty narrow when you factor in the three masons.

I have a lot of sympathy for Porochaz because of his loss. I may have been giving him a pass because of that, but I will be giving him a reread (possibly only in ISO, because work-suckage) and I'll have something to say there in the next few days.

I keep seeing things I believe to be towntells for Yos and I need to do a reread there as well. If it does turn out that VitaminR is town and Yos is scum, then my reads are completely backwards. I do think OGML was scummy for the weird way he tunnelled on DGB, but I did think she was town anyway so it might be confbias. I want to see more from CDB.

Sorry to be less than helpful of late. If there is anything I've missed or anything I really need to comment on, please point it out.

[Bookitty]

1) Chamber – I thought that he was practically conftown based on what I saw as serious buddying from CES; now that CES has flipped town, I don't really have the same level of confidence. I still think he's town based primarily on the attitude, but I don't have the same degree of sureness.
2) Porochaz – I guess I'm willing to lynch Prozac today. I haven't had time for that in-depth ISO yet, but I know he's not contributing a lot of substance. His last vote on ABR is just awful too.
5) MrBuddyLee – I think he is town.
8) undo –Mason
9) Sotty7 - Mason
11) Juls (replacing petroleumjelly) - Mason
13) mathcam (replacing MafiaSSK) – I go back and forth on mathcam. He just seems way too conciliatory. Look at Post 3738 for the most extreme example; it's in reply to Yos's explanation of his attack on him. I think he could be scum.
15) Albert B. Rampage – Town.
16) Green Crayons – I agree with GC a lot and I am sure he's town.
17) SpyreX (replacing inHimshallibe who replaced Zorblag who replaced Natirasha, who replaced farside22) – I see the argument that SpyreX was too certain STD was scum, but I don't see why scum would bus STD at this point in the game unless (I think someone else said this too) the other one or two scum were in a better position than STD. I can't figure out who would be in a better position unless my reads are way off.
18) VitaminR – Still probable scum to me.
20) Yosarian2 – I won't be voting Yos2 today. I still think he's town, though he's slipped below ABR on my obvtown list.
22) ChannelDelibird (replacing OhGodMyLife who replaced Kublai Khan who replaced Tigris) – Scum primarily for the tunnel push on DGB by his predecessor. I suspect that this push was prompted by DGB's suspicion of him rather than any genuine belief that DGB was scum. Recent postings have improved, but I think this slot is scum.

So my scumlist consists of CDB, VitaminR and maybe mathcam or Porochaz.

I will echo MBL in saying I really like what Juls is doing and I don't want to put my vote down until she's done. I would rather have her contributions out there for everyone to read before we lynch, so no vote from me right now.

[Bookitty]

No, no, no. I'm not voting Yosarian2 today. I much prefer ANY of the other three wagons.

I'm voting Porochaz because he's the leading non-Yos wagon but I'd be just as happy (probably more so) with voting mathcam or CDB.

Yos is playing only slightly less town than I remember town-Yos and I think we're all sort of burned out (maybe it's just me) at this point in the game. Being wrong (and grouchy) is not a scumtell. Being wrong is just being wrong.

VOTE: Porochaz

[Bookitty]

It takes five minutes to speed-type your post on LML at 40 WPM.

40 WPM is not speed-typing. Many of us type a LOT faster than that

[Bookitty]

Do you think ABR is scum, mathcam?

I looked at Sotty's link and OGML's comments on that page and.. yeah, that's exactly why I thought he was scum too, just without the knowledge that STD was scum at the time.

VOTE: ChannelDelibird

[Bookitty]

Okay, I just did a quick reread of DGB in ISO. (I did check a few things to see what she was responding to, but I didn't reread the game entire.) She was convinced that mathcam was scum and said he should have been our lynch yesterday.

Yos had the opposing viewpoint at the end of the day yesterday, though. He felt that the only way that mathcam could be scum is if he was scum with Porochaz, because mathcam said that if Poro flipped town, he would look more closely at interactions between VitR and Yos and that Poro-town implied Yos-town.

Mathcam, what is your opinion of Porochaz, including a rough percentage of certainty for that read? What is your read on VitaminR, given Yos's town flip?

Porochaz, same question regarding mathcam, please.

ChannelDelibird, I'm pretty sure it's not 3 AM now, so can you weigh in?

VitaminR, now that Yos has flipped town, can you provide some comments/revised reads (or the same reads, if they have not changed)? Same question for MBL, please.

[Bookitty]

I'm not crazy about the way VitaminR and MBL just ignored my question. But I guess that's sort of an answer in itself.

[Bookitty]

My reads haven't really changed much (maybe not at all). I have a stronger townread on ABR, but that may just be because I was so sure that Yos was town and the way ABR acted around that lynch (despite voting for him) really read town to me.

I still feel that MBL is town. GC too. These aren't "OMG these people are town, how can you ever lynch them?" reads, but they're strong enough that I'm not willing to vote them.

I don't recall ever thinking that there was an ABR-Chamber voting bloc. If it was a thing, it was a thing that didn't register with me.

@VitaminR: You said "OGML gave me a gut town read." Can you please give any examples of posts that may have prompted that town read? Post numbers would be sufficient.

[Bookitty]

I don't really feel like I need to respond to Undo's post, since there isn't actually a question. I will say one thing. What you're reading as feigned indignation is frustration. I have ALREADY given my reads fairly recently and I didn't feel like recapping my own post. I gave my opinions on people who were under suspicion by various others. I asked some questions with a twofold purpose: to get discussion started (not very successfully, I guess) and to figure out a few links or lack of the same. And my "yeah, I guess that's an answer in itself" speaks to the fatigue that I am feeling with this game and its slow pace. I feel like EVERYONE is tired of the slow pace.

If you don't like my contributions, Undo, make more of your own. Hell, make a case on me and push it through. But occasional sniping from the sidelines when you're actually confirmed town is a misuse of your role and less than helpful for town. I'd really like to hear your reads (yeah, even on me), so put in a little time and tell us what you think about everyone, please. You have a great opportunity to help us and you're just squandering it.

[Bookitty]

I'm not sold on CDB, but my current read on that slot is null, so I'll have to do a bit of rereading.

That shouldn't take long. {Tigris, KK, OGML and CDB -- I checked}

CDB was supposed to provide some actual content/reads on Thursday night but he hasn't been back since Wednesday. He said he was busy at work, though. I'd at least like to give him through the weekend to say what he has to say before lynching. I doubt that will make a material difference to the pace of the game at this point.

That said, if the CDB slot ends up having to be replaced AGAIN, I'd rather lynch it and spare the agony.

[Bookitty]

I agree with ABR. The pace of this game is so slow at this point, that zzzzzzzz.

[Bookitty]

CDB hasn't even come back as promised last Thursday to provide content on the game.

At this point, I'd be surprised if he shows up at all.

[Bookitty]

You want a REASON? I'll give you a reason:

Tigris: You are a member of the

secret illuminati

. Your teammates are Kublai Khan, OhGodMyLife, ChannelDelibird, and Thok. You have no special abilities, but would like to infiltrate the town through your successive deaths and rebirths. You win if all members of the team are brought into the game via replacement without anyone suspecting a conspiracy. At this point, everyone else will die.

I don't understand what you're getting at with this. Can you explain what you mean by the Patrick quote and the "you want a reason?" comment?

[Bookitty]

Notes: Boo is the only person not to have "significantly voted scum" in her reason. This means that at least two remaining scum were involved in the lynch of LML and/or STD.

I don't really know what this means. I voted for STD, but I wasn't all that convinced he was scum until he said he was and self-voted. So if you mean I didn't have a big role in lynching either LML or STD, then yeah, I agree. Otherwise, could you explain what you mean by "significantly" voting?

[Bookitty]

One thing I would really like before a hammer is a full list of reads (reasoning optional) from Sotty and Undo. One of them is probably not going to be with us tomorrow and I'd like to hear what they have to say before we end the day.

[Bookitty]

Pretty much everyone else has some kind of town read.

I missed this the first time, I guess. If you have anything to add (even minor suspicions or gut reads) in the town read bloc, that's all I'd ask. Thanks!

[Bookitty]

I'm fine with a mass claim; it might give us one more confirmed town. I'm not sure it will help that much, but it would narrow down our choices a bit more today. For me, this boosts my town read on chamber even a bit more.

What I'm not fine with is this baiting and concerted lynch effort against ABR. I can kind of see Porochaz-town doing this given his expressed suspicions of ABR previously. It's mathcam's "convince me" without putting in any effort himself to see if ABR is actually scum that is pinging my scumdar. To borrow a phrase, it looks pretty convenient to me.

Along with the unnecessarily unpleasant response to undo about what I thought was a pretty reasonable comment about the hammers, I feel pretty sure that mathcam is scum. I kind of yelled at undo yesterday about not helping us as much as he could; mathcam's comment seems like borrowed sniping not designed to encourage participation but rather to discredit a conftown mason.

VOTE: mathcam

[Bookitty]

That might be true. I can tell you that my ABR read comes from the fact that he's felt so genuinely frustrated with so many parts of the game, to the point that it would be difficult to fake for scum. I will say that it's hard to get too much information from his in-game choices, as he relentlessly jumps on almost every bandwagon he can get ahold of, and then vigorously asserts rretroactively that he knew what was going on all along (hence my snide comment toward him at the start of the day). It's hard to give him credit for being on scum bandwagons for this reason.

This does not sound like you have ABR as "probably pro-town." It sounds like you're slight leaning-town at best. Which is more accurate?

[Bookitty]

I'm a vanilla townie. I'm sure you all knew this already

[Bookitty]

[Bookitty]

One major positive of a mass claim at this point is that it locks scum into a position in which they can't claim paranoid gun owner, supersaint or Santa Claus if they get run up.

@Chamber:

It's possible MBL may be without computer access for some reason. I'm not ruling out anything until we hear from him.

@Undo:

If your one vote could automatically lynch someone, who would it be? Also, did you and Sotty have a chance to discuss last night? Did she have any thoughts about who the remaining scum are?

@Vitamin R:

Is your vote on mathcam primarily based on the two somewhat quick hammers? Do you have other reasons to think he's scum?

[Bookitty]

I'm therefore suspicious that our second kill is not a vig slot, but a mafia power role. This also fits my notion of balance for the game -- 5 out of 22 is about right for a completely vanilla (do people use the word "mountainous" any more?) game, but we've got 3 masons and a vanilla cop on our side. It does not seem implausible to me that scum might have a tad extra power as well.

(In fact, now that I've brought this up, I've become a little paranoid that it's still possible that there's 4 scum remaining, especially if they're vanilla, which would put us in lynch or lose...please be careful with getting bandwagons to half-mast).

It doesn't seem to me that these both are likely to be true. Six scum to start with would already be extra power. Giving them ... what, a multi-shot vig ability? would be way overpowered on the scum side.

Of the two scenarios, I'd be more likely to suspect the second. The first scenario seems really far-fetched to me.

Since we are likely to have a little time, though, I'm going to look at the {crashtextdummie and Untrod Tripod} kills and the {Sotty7-obvious-scum-kill and Green Crayons-other-kill} to see if I can see scum motivation for any of the CTD, UT and GC kills. If anyone else has time, they could do this too.

If I see town motivation, though, I'm not going to point it out and I'd ask that others not do so either. If we have a vig and they don't want to out themselves, they probably have more shots. So outing them involuntarily serves no good purpose imo. I was assuming 2-shot vig based on the limited kills, but I could be wrong on that. If they don't want to be basically conftown, I'll trust them.

[Bookitty]

I think the vig lying now, if that's what's really going on, is a bad play. If we decide that the extra information we get from knowing who the vig is outweights the merits of another vig kill (which have thus far been 2 out of 2 townies), then I don't think it's the vig's call to countermand us. Of course, if no buys the argument, my point is moot, but if there's any merit to what I'm saying, then

a pro-town vig is endangering him/her-self, and thus the town, by carrying an increased risk of being lynched for previously lying to the town if/when he/she reveals him/herself.

I completely disagree with this part of what you have said.

Every town power role has the right and even the obligation to play to the best of his or her ability on behalf of town. It is absolutely that power role's right to do whatever they think is most likely to help us win.

If a vig still has further shots, he probably feels (and rightly, in my opinion) that saying no, I don't want to claim would out him. If he does out himself, he is going to be the kill tonight. That eliminates his usefulness to town. If he claims outright, there is the same scenario.

Also, you said this:

On the other hand, I'm not sure I could see a situation with two people claiming vig where we couldn't reason out the true claim from the fake one.

So how does that correlate with the bolded portion of the quote at the top of this post?

I thought GC was town, but I do not think that it was a universally held belief. I don't really want anyone to say so if they thought GC was scum, for reasons that should be obvious.

[Bookitty]

@Patrick and everyone:

I will have limited access this weekend. I will try to check in when I have time, but I can't be sure when that will be. I should be back Monday though.

[Bookitty]

BooKitty: What do you think about chamber's last post?

And what about the fact that an essentially-confirmed vigilante would mean one more townie's arguments we could be sure were town-oriented as we make our last vew lynching decisions?

The answer to the first part is a little complicated. I remember JDodge reading us the riot act once for trying to direct the vig in a Pick Your Poison game. His argument went something like this:

• The vig is 100-percent town motivated.
  The players in the game are less than 100-percent town.
  Allowing the town to dictate to the vig introduces scum influence into their decisions.
  

So by telling the vig what to do (even to claim in this case) you're allowing scum influences to affect what could be a 100 percent town decision.

In general, though, I agree with chamber in part: if we lynch scum today, the vig shouldn't shoot tonight. If we don't, though, and your scenario of four remaining scum is right, then the vig shooting tonight may be our last best hope for survival to tomorrow.

If we do have four scum left, the vig claiming or not doesn't make any difference. I don't really feel like a six-person scum team is very likely, but I could be wrong. Additionally, if there is some mysterious scum-vig power, it doesn't help town for them to claim. It doesn't give us one more confirmed town and it doesn't narrow down our choices at all. I'm guessing (maybe hoping) that neither of these are true, though.

Mathcam, what is your read on Vitamin R?

[Bookitty]

At this point I confess I can't townread anyone anymore.

I'm not quite there yet. I still think chamber is townish, I think ABR is townish despite his suspicion of me. I'm on the fence about Porochaz, but I don't see why scum would go after ABR; there are plenty of easier targets. Pretty much anyone else could be scum; probably not MBL, but I want to know what's going on with him.

I am already voting mathcam, not so much for the hammers, but because I feel like he just goes with the flow and votes however the majority wants. The hammers are a symptom of that, but they aren't really the root cause of the problem. I'm also not crazy about the snarky comment about ABR coming in and saying he knew CDB was town all along; it doesn't sit right with me because voting for someone less-than-gladly to achieve a lynch (something ABR has done several times) is supposedly what mathcam was doing with those hammers too.

I would like to hear from MBL before we lynch anyone, though.

[Bookitty]

Can you not have input now, today, rather than asking us to wait for an extra week?

I think the only two you would even have to weigh in on are mathcam and me, so can't you just do that before you go?

[Bookitty]

I personally would really like people to put forward their candidates for the most-likely 3-person scum team. I think I've asked a couple of people to do this already, and have been summarily ignored.

Boo, any chance I can get you to indulge me here?

My scum team is in order of certainty: mathcam, VitaminR and Porochaz. I don't feel very confident about Porochaz-scum because of his willingness to stick his neck out about ABR and to a lesser degree me.

If I swap out Porochaz, though, I guess I would have to think between chamber and SpyreX. Chamber's lack of engagement with the game would be the biggest mark against him, but the way he's been doing it just doesn't seem scummy to me. SpyreX is townish because of the STD push when he wasn't under any real pressure. I don't think MBL or ABR are scum.

I feel pretty confident about scum-mathcam and scum-VitaminR. It's the third I keep doubting myself about.

[Bookitty]

I think that there are extremely compelling reasons not to vote for GC and CDB that are not mentioned in your list, MBL.

[Bookitty]

That would be it. I never vote for people who are already dead.

I don't actually know (and I'm sure I have asked) what you mean by having "significantly voted scum". I did vote for LML, but I would not consider that a significant vote since he'd claimed doctor before I changed my vote. However, I don't see how my vote for STD was any more or less significant than anyone else's.

I don't understand why VitaminR is so high on your list given your expressed reasoning. I'm assuming you and GC are at the top of your list, right?

[Bookitty]

Why did you include GC and CDB in your list, then, please?

You quoted the earlier part but then put dead players in the part you apparently wrote from scratch. I don't really understand how you came to place them in the order you did and including dead players just seems really odd to me.

It's as if I included in my town list for today: ABR, Juls and Undo. How is that relevant to the current discussion?

[Bookitty]

I'm heading out for a bit and probably won't be checking this again tonight, but I will go on the record as saying I'm good with either mathcam or VitaminR. So not against lynching VitaminR.

[Bookitty]

@MBL

: The issue I have is this:

Defending townies is something that both scum and town could do. I defended Glork and Yosarian very heavily myself. But that can't be a Bookitty-town-tell for the rest of you, because if I were scum, I would have known that they were town and I could have been doing that to gain valuable town-cred. So fighting back against the lynch of town is not a town-tell for you and it's not a town-tell for me. Scum could equally well do the same and might even have more motivation to do so to look townier.

[Bookitty]

Nobody from that list has any votes except BooKitty, who conveniently happens to be one of the two people I'm most interested in voting for today.

I am still voting you, so this is simply not true.

[Bookitty]

Do you think mathcam is scum, MBL?

[Bookitty]

So let me get this straight. You both think that the other is scum with BooKitty, but neither of you are voting BooKitty? It seems like there's a particularly easy compromise there....

That is not correct at all, to the extent that it seems like a deliberate misrepresentation.

Porochaz thinks ABR and I are scum together. That part is correct.

ABR thought that you (mathcam), VitaminR and I were scum together. To my knowledge, ABR still thinks Porochaz is probably town. He's not arguing and has not argued that I'm scum with Porochaz.

Are you not reading, or are you lying on purpose?

[Bookitty]

I did some checking and it seems to me that mathcam has been under suspicion pretty much throughout the game, but has been remarkably hard to lynch. I have tried just to hit the highlights to keep this as short as possible. If there's relevant information I've missed or if I've made any mistakes, I would really appreciate hearing it.

MafiaSSK (5) --

Tigris, petroleumjelly

, Seol, Porochaz,

Green Crayons

LML-scum lynched.

DrippingGoofball (6) --

Untrod Tripod, Kublai Khan, Sotty7

,

Save the Dragons,

Porochaz,

petroleumjelly

mathcam (4) --

Cogito Ergo Sum

, Albert B. Rampage, chamber,

DrippingGoofball

A little later:

DrippingGoofball (7) --

Untrod Tripod, Kublai Khan, Sotty7

,

Save the Dragons,

Porochaz,

CrashTextdummie,

Albert B. Rampage
mathcam (2) --

Cogito Ergo Sum

, chamber

The emphasis shifts to lynching Undo (Mason) and mathcam disappears from the vote count candidates by Post 1320.

Masons PJ and Undo claim.

mathcam (6) --

CrashTextDummie, Cogito Ergo Sum

, Albert B. Rampage, Bookitty,

Untrod Tripod,

Save the Dragons

Wagon builds on Glork.

Glork (6) --

undo, Kublai Khan, petroleumjelly

, VitaminR, Porochaz, mathcam
mathcam (6) --

CrashTextDummie, Cogito Ergo Sum

, Bookitty,

Untrod Tripod,

Save the Dragons

,

DrippingGoofball

Final vote count for that:

Glork (11) --

undo, Kublai Khan,

VitaminR,

Green Crayons, Yosarian2

, Albert B. Rampage,

Untrod Tripod, DrippingGoofball,

chamber,

CrashTextDummie,

mathcam
mathcam (3) --

Cogito Ergo Sum,

Bookitty,

Glork

A new day dawns:

mathcam (5) --

Cogito Ergo Sum,

Bookitty,

Green Crayons, DrippingGoofball,

Albert B. Rampage

By Post 2184 mathcam has vanished from the vote count again, but this one isn't so suspicious because STD is the leading vote getter in that vote count. No votes on mathcam when CES was lynched.

STD is lynched the next day. No votes on mathcam listed in the vote counts at all for that day.

mathcam (1) --

Sotty7

mathcam (1) --

Yosarian2

mathcam (2) --

Yosarian2, undo

Yosarian was lynched.

mathcam (1) --

undo

That's the single vote on mathcam all day that I can see.

CDB is lynched.

Today starts.

mathcam (2) -- VitaminR, Bookitty

VitaminR moves his vote off mathcam and on to ABR prior to leaving for vacation, though.

The fact that mathcam wagons just seem to dissolve while other wagons (Yos and Glork are two I definitely remember) gain traction and go the distance easily makes me feel even more sure that mathcam is scum.

[Bookitty]

@Mathcam: Because VitaminR took his vote OFF you to put it on ABR.

Translation: Thin reason found for not voting for buddy. Vote for main tunnel again.

@ABR: What did you mean by this, please? Mathcam is arguing that you think Porochaz-Bookitty-??? is the scumteam, if I understand correctly.

[Bookitty]

Also, happy Scumday, Porochaz!

[Bookitty]

@mathcam:

How has VitaminR been protective of me? It's a serious question; I haven't seen anything like that.

Response to post ninja: I thought ABR was referring to you because of the "not voting for buddy." It can't be me, because Porochaz had JUST been voting for me, so there was no "not voting" there imo. I think ABR would have said "moving vote off buddy" if that's what he had meant.

[Bookitty]

@Mathcam: I think there's a stronger case to be made that VitaminR has been defending you all through the game.

mathcam's Post 1578 reads pretty genuine to me. Not a fan of this wagon.

I've thought mathcam town pretty much since Day 1 and have never understood the wagon on him. And I have said as much. I only made that post because his frustration in Post 1578 clinched that read for me.

Acknowledging and dismissing the case against mathcam:

I get what you're saying, but complaining about no one taking his scumhunting seriously seems like a townie thing to do to me. Why get upset if you're scum? You'd know that your case was wrong (unless you're bussing, I guess).

I've said repeatedly that I don't get why people think mathcam is scum. What do you expect me to do? Not vote anyone?

Agreeing with mathcam that Sotty7 is probable scum:

Vote: Sotty

I've agonized about this a little in my head, but I think it's the best option. I still think her play with regard to LML looked bad and her votes have largely been easy ones.

I'm very intrigued by Sotty's last few posts, which have all focused on how there's nothing for her to argue against. There's no "The wagon is wrong because..." or "A better wagon is blah because..." She even goes so far as to call the wagon unfair. Whether or not this is true, this does paint to me a slight picture of scum bemoaning being caught for circumstances out of her control, annoyed that she played the game carefully enough to have nothing to actually be attacked for, and yet got caught away. I'm sure this is partly me trying to retroactively justify the wagon, but it sounds pretty reasonable.

I sort of had the same feeling. I also don't really like how she's using the fact that ABR called my case poor without coming out and calling it that herself. Seems a little disingenuous. If you think it's poor, say so. If you don't, don't use it in your defense.

Also, DGB and mathcam are probably town.

As for mathcam, in Post 719, he says that, after re-reading, he's noticed the case against me (laid out by Yos at some point). This seems like the kind of naturalistic change in how you perceive the game that is hard for scum to fake (this assumes that scum is less likely to re-read just to test their opinions of the game and unlikely to try and find new suspicions at a time when there's no strong incentive to---since there's no wagon on me). It could be a subtle early play to set up a wagon tomorrow, I suppose, but the simplest interpretation is just that he's town.

Criticizing PJ for questioning mathcam:

I particularly don't like this question directed at mathcam:

In Post 756, petroleumjelly wrote: Also, can you explain the arguments against VitaminR in your own words?


This question feels so manipulative. mathcam made it decently clear what he had in mind (Yos's earlier case against me). It feels like pj is using the pretense of trying to get insight into mathcam's thought processes to create content that pushes the game in a pro-scum direction.

[Bookitty]

I just checked. VitaminR is out until September 10th. Deadline is September 10th.

I don't like voting for people who aren't going to be around before deadline to defend themselves. However, I've made it clear that I think there's a mathcam-VitaminR-??? scumteam. I'd be willing to make an exception and vote VitaminR if it came down to a compromise.

By contrast, though, you (mathcam) have not given a three-person or two-person scumteam. If I understand you correctly, you're arguing that I'm the best lynch because I could potentially be scum with just about anyone. How does that sync up with your statement that

In fact, save for a couple of obvious stand-outs (ABR and Yos), VitR has not been at odds with almost anyone this game.

Wouldn't that argue that VitaminR is equally likely to fit into just as many hypothetical scumteams? How do you reconcile these two assertions?

Do you think VitaminR is scum?

[Bookitty]

@Porochaz:

If I were actually scum with ABR, do you really think I would have supported him so strongly throughout the game? Would I have made it so easy to do paint-by-numbers connections between us? I could sort of see it if you were saying I was scum buddying up to ABR, but scum together? Really?

Like I said, I'll vote VitaminR as a compromise. I'm not giving up my first suspicion to move a vote onto someone who isn't here to defend themselves until I think it's the only way to get a lynch.

@MBL:

Without going back and rereading the full context for those, I will say that "lean town" is hardly a declaration that DGB was 100 percent town. I do remember thinking that she was town because she brought out the scumputer, something I haven't seen her do as much as scum, but I'd guess that was later on. I was SURE that Glork was town because of his grumpy, pissed-off reactions to various things, which is usually a towntell for him imo. Notice how I wasn't delighted over voting DGB: "If I absolutely have to" vs. "I found scum! DGB is scum!"

I don't see the contradiction in these two quotes.

[Bookitty]

Votecount

Albert B. Rampage (1) -- VitaminR
mathcam (2) -- Bookitty, undo
MrBuddyLee (1) -- chamber
VitaminR (2) -- Albert B. Rampage, mathcam
Bookitty (1) -- Porochaz

Not voting: MrBuddyLee, ika
9 alive, 5 to lynch.

I'm currently voting mathcam. So is Undo. That's two for mathcam.

I'm willing to move my vote to VitaminR to get a lynch of someone I think is scum. That would make it three votes for VitaminR with ABR and mathcam.

ABR, MBL and I each have one vote. I won't be voting either of them today, though.

We have like, two or two and a half days before deadline, so if you have a strong preference now is the time to make it heard.

[Bookitty]

@Patrick:

When does the deadline hit, please?

[Bookitty]

It should be about nine hours from now.

I'll be around until about an hour before deadline. I'm already voting mathcam but I can move my vote to VitaminR if that ensures a lynch. Right now, though, VitR only has one vote on him. I have two votes on me, and mathcam has three.

[Bookitty]

To be fair, I think mathcam is primarily interested in not being lynched. If I remember correctly, he's said he suspects nearly everyone.

What is your case on ABR?

[Bookitty]

I was under the impression that someone (mathcam, maybe?) told ika just to hammer today when someone got to four votes since he wasn't going to have time to read the game. Am I remembering that wrong?

[Bookitty]

I am going to be out of here in 15 minutes and won't be back until after deadline. That said, deadline is less than an hour away by my clock.

Chamber, you want to weigh in here?

[Bookitty]

Patrick said it was in 1.5h when I asked him a little while ago, not .5h

Cool! I'll be back before deadline, then, I think.

Out for a bit.

[Bookitty]

Still not scum, guys.

I was sure mathcam was scum. VitaminR was my second suspicion, and since he's the vig, I have no clue who the scum are now.

Doing a reread, but it may take a while.

[Bookitty]

VOTE: MrBuddyLee

[Bookitty]

It was very difficult for me not to point out that leaving a vote on someone when only one town vote is needed to secure a scum win would be a mistake on the part of town.

But I managed it because my scumbuddies were awesome

[Bookitty]

I sincerely thought ABR was the vig because he seemed so mad at the start of the day yesterday. No one else agreed with me though

[Bookitty]

True confession: I pushed against the lynches of Glork and Yosarian mostly because I like those guys and I wanted to play with/against them longer.

Ninja edit: I never at all saw VitaminR as being the vig. He played it very close to the vest.

[Bookitty]

I think the sheer size and length of the game worked against both scum and town. The death march that this game became, however, definitely worked to our advantage toward the end. The thought of rereading the entire game when suspects didn't work out probably demotivated a lot of really fine town players.

[Bookitty]

<3 I loved our scum team. Though I didn't get to play with LML very much, I missed STD a lot when you guys cruelly and unfairly killed him, and we did pull together as a family throughout the game Kudos to Porochaz for staying strong and sensible throughout the game and providing some much-needed moral support; also, the simulvote was ika and it worked perfectly.

I'm out for a bit.

Before I go though, I want to say that ABR was one of the most active town players and that he did make a lot of things happen that could have won this for town. Toward the end, I was sort of shaking in my boots because he called out the scumteam in its entirety. I really think it was general exhaustion and major apathy that did in town in this game.

[Bookitty]

Anyone could have been lynched on a whim. Many townies were.

Porochaz was a major force in winning this for us by making calm and reasoned arguments in the Scum PT.

I, on the other hand, am terrible at playing scum. I think my play throughout this game will bear this out.

[Bookitty]

I don't agree, and here's why:

We needed just one person to vote a townie. Since we had daytalk, we had the chance to coordinate a strike like the one that happened today.

VitaminR was conftown, but yesterday no one knew that. You wanted to lynch him.

Porochaz was ready to push through a lynch on me today if we had to. He had set that up brilliantly yesterday.

I had the impression that more than a couple of townies thought you were scum, ABR.

So it's not so clear-cut as you are saying now. If it had been, our plan would not have worked today.

[Bookitty]

Until Patrick comes back and gets permission from people, I don't think we can reveal the scum PT. I have no objection to making it public, but I don't know how others feel on that subject.

[Bookitty]

Then why would you vote MBL over your two certainties in LYLO?

[Bookitty]

You don't need to figure out the whole scum team right now though. You just need 1 name that's most likely. Any focus on the whole team is a distraction.

This was accurate.

[Bookitty]

I think it's evidence that Shanba and CrashTestDummie are feared that we all agreed to get rid of these two players early

It was pure luck that Shanba was also a power role, at least as I saw it.

[Bookitty]

I usually hate playing scum. This game was really different for me because of the trust I had in my partners and the support we gave to each other throughout the game.

A number of us on the scum team had serious life issues come up during the course of the game (this happened to members of the town, too) and some of us had to leave while others stuck it out. I really relied on Porochaz's moral support to stay; without the camaraderie and friendship that our scum team shared, I think it would have been difficult if not impossible for me to stay motivated to play in this game.

This game is over now. Pointing fingers and insulting others for their play is really without a positive point and only serves to make people feel bad about what is just a game we are all here to play for fun.

[Bookitty]

Boo: Grrrr. But damn, end of day 1 was well-played. Any time I really though you were 100% absolute scum, I went back and read day 1, and I couldn't see you and LML both scum. Really nice.

Grrr you were my nemesis, mathcam! OMG!

I will admit that I only went hunting for the role-block breadcrumb after LML was lynched. I figured it was the only way to save my sorry hide after trying to save him all day one. :p It was just lucky that I was able to find something to work with.

I was very shocked that it worked.

[Bookitty]

I actually loved getting to play with all of you. I expressed some in-game vitriol at PJ, but that was because he was actually threatening to me and my scumbuddies. There isn't one of you I don't respect and admire, and I think you're all better players than I am.

I feel lucky to have been included in this game.

[Bookitty]

I think we all had moments like that. I know I did, whether I posted them or not In the end, it's just a game and hopefully we all had fun regardless of the outcome.

[Bookitty]

OMG Mathcam, now it's 188! What did you DO?!?

In seriousness, I remember replacing into something that went over 200 posts. I have no idea of the current meta, though.

[Bookitty]

<3 Ether. So awesome

I wish I had any artistic skill at all to play Telephone Pictionary.

[Bookitty]

Since ika came up with our winning strategy, I think he wasn't too intimidated

[Bookitty]

I wouldn't mind seeing the dead thread and the mason private topic too

[Bookitty]

Argh, I knew Bookitty was scum. Why do I keep going after the wrong first impressions?

I KNEW you did.

I tried to discount it or ignore it, but I was sure you knew I was scum

That's why I was so relieved when we finally decided to nightkill you

[Bookitty]

I really loved our scumteam. I actually got into the mindset that we were the good guys and the town was composed of bad guys. I didn't want to bus STD, though I do accept (now) that it was necessary. LML contributed to the win to a HUGE degree by inspiring chaos and leaving very little for town to work with in identifying the rest of our team. STD was so much fun to play with and was sadly missed when he was gone. Although I didn't bond as closely with the replacement circus, SpyreX's bus of STD (which I really resented at the time!) was a key factor in our win, as was ika's idea about simulvoting.

For me, though, Porochaz was the single most influential scum player. He was with us all through the game and was willing to take risks, to piss off aggressive players (I'm looking at you, ABR) and to make the sacrifice play if it was needed. I couldn't imagine a scum win without him, so I was never willing to bus him even though at certain points he did urge me to. I just didn't see a pathway to victory without his help and his behind-the-scenes support and understanding of the game.

I am legitimately not very good at playing scum. I'm not that great as town, either So I want to say thanks to LoudMouthLee, Save the Dragons, Porochaz and ika for making this game fun and helping us to pull out a win in the end. You guys are the best