Open 720: NOIR (GAME OVER)

[jjh927]

Hullo, I'll spend some time catching up I guess

having read Random's iso and nothing else though I'm kinda feeling the

VOTE: Not Mafia

because it looks like he did the standard NM thing of lolhammering and this is a good votepark

[jjh927]

Yeah I'm town, Random's iso is town, why were you voting him

[jjh927]

I mean I guess I'll get there eventually but there's like 80 pages of people I've never seen before so it's gonna take some time and I'll do the top-down bottom-up simultaneous thing

[jjh927]

Eh I wouldn't have caught that bit because I only read his iso but it's a town role PM so my conclusions are valid


Btw I legit searched your iso for wallposts before you said that because I wanted to find one

[jjh927]

If you're changing your avatar you should use the picture that momo suggested as a banner for his team mafia team

[jjh927]

Is there anything good we can talk about on the forwards front while I work on the backwards and catch up?

[jjh927]

Eh I wouldn't have caught that bit because I only read his iso but it's a town role PM so my conclusions are valid

Lolwat? Conclusion that you can't understand why someone wouldn't townread him is valid despite your own read only being valid due to role PM...

This is gonna be a long day.

It was my conclusion that Random was a townslot while I was isoing before replacing in, not anything to do with Eddie

[jjh927]

momomen

Eddie can tell me what to do if he's town!Eddie

[jjh927]

Probably not tbh

[jjh927]

JJ I NEED YOU TO BE TOWN AND WIN THIS GAME WITH ME KTS FLAKED SO YOURE MY NEW HYDRA PARTNER

I'll take you up on this now. Fuckin slayer's gambit

[jjh927]

Nah your predecessor's take on slayer's was all I needed lmao

[jjh927]

I asked the relevant authorities whether I could scumread Eddie and they said no

[jjh927]

Alonzo seems acceptable based on the front and I don't TR him on the back fwiw

[jjh927]

Your first readslist was shit imo, Oxy

[jjh927]

Strong town read

fumuki-I know he claimed scum, but this guy is obv!town.

town reads

(less light, not strong)
vivi - reasons

town lean

Alonzo - no change
korina - I was getting comfortable with a town read but then 208 happened
sando - He and I independently arrived at the same conclusion about mutantdevle, at least until Sando did the meta read through). I like a lot of his thought processes, even though I don't actually agree with some (most?) of his conclusions. This is difference in opinion on what is/isn't alignment indicative.

null

mutantdevle - I'm townleaning this conditional on him having played 0 games with fumuki and conditional on me reading that game that got linked of his.
the worst - He's really helpful. Not so sure about the scumhunting.
Quick - I kind of want to say he really did town slip, but ehh there will be better things to build a read on.

I meant this one.

[jjh927]

Actually I'm on page 16 and right now I'm at pinturicchio, Alonzo, Not_Mafia all scum

[jjh927]

also town to least town-
Quick
MOMOMEN (Eddie Cane/KillTheStory) Fumuki
Sando
mutantdevle
Oxy
havingfitz pisskop Korina
ceejayvinoya

[jjh927]

I mean I still think you're probably town and I'm updating my notepad list as I go through but I thought it stood out in my mind as a bad readslist, not bad as in scummy bad but bad as in bad

[jjh927]

Right now, I TR most of the rest of the game and his few posts at the front of the game are pretty shifty.

I'm on page 33 now and Eddie just got even fucking townier. Tbh, you should take what I say with a grain of salt until I hit the day 1 lynch because I'm doing a bit of nka on the side here and my reads are gonna get stronger when I get to the point at which that is most prominent.

Yeah maybe just wait for Eddie to case if you want a case assuming Eddie will case

[jjh927]

Okay, we'll see if I still scumread him when I've caught up then. But I'm gonna make food when I hit the halfway mark so when I actually catch up will probably be some point a few hours after I wake up

[jjh927]

Hit halfway and damn shit's exciting even if I know the result

[jjh927]

I'm going to bed soon, gimme the surprise

[jjh927]

Booooooo

Are you trying to beat my minesweeper score because I'm trying to do that too

[jjh927]

Halfway. Haven't read any more since I made food and that was my lot for the night. Again, going to bed soon

[jjh927]

What are you referring to?

[jjh927]

No, I mean shit is actually exciting. Nothing funny there.

Like, it's at the point where the ico wagon suddenly deforms and turns into a mutant wagon and I know that ico gets lynched but IDK how it's gonna turn back to them. It's like a very temporary counterwagon? I think it's gonna be quite important but it could just be shit.

I'm also quite interested in who TRed The Worst at EOD because at this point it's mainly just you being loud about it and I feel like if he got killed then he must have been TRed at least as hard by the majority of town than as the agreed upon obvtowns. That should be a good indicator of who is town, imo, unless it turns out there's a ton of people. Like, from where I am in the game, I wouldn't expect that kill at all so it's worth considering from whose scum perspectives it makes sense.

[jjh927]

Booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

[jjh927]

That doesn't look like a soft to me

[jjh927]

Was this publicly established in day 2 or is Oxy claiming scum

[jjh927]

Okay yeah pointing it out randomly makes it less likely to be from scum but I'll get to context when I catch up I guess

[jjh927]

jjh, which song would you identify yourself?

??? Are you asking me to pick a song to describe myself?

[jjh927]

Mate, I tried to throw shade on the worst during D1 because of that post. Don't try to tell me I only think it's a soft claim in retrospect, lol

You can think I'm wrong, that's fine. Don't misrep me tho

Wait, are you saying you were shading him so he was less likely to be NKed?

PEdit: Welcome to locktown

[jjh927]

Okay I ctrl Fed song in your iso, pintu, so I know what you're on about

Gimme Mr Brightside, it works if we're doing these like nicknames and the song's a classic.


Still don't think you're town at this point in the game, mind. If this is you placing me as town, how come you've done it so fast? I don't think we've played together so you shouldn't know my meta

[jjh927]

Uh, in my experience people don't PR hunt for shit and scum tend to target widely townread people or those with coherent viewpoints that keep the town from turning into poop. Especially both. Unless there's some kind of crumb that they've caught, in which case- sure. But I don't believe anyone can accurately tell the difference between someone's VT game and someone's PR game outside of crumbs

PEdit: Pintu

[jjh927]

I think Sando is criticising your strategy rather than calling you scummy for it

[jjh927]

And yeah I'm with you there

[jjh927]

Just I have yet to finish reading day 1

[jjh927]

shit it's like 6am I need to be up by 4pm oh I love my life

[jjh927]

I don't expect scum to create that many hoops that they then have to jump through

[jjh927]

Yeah but pintu, a quick iso ctrl f tells me that you were the worst's last vote before joining the ico wagon

[jjh927]

Going to bed, will probably not be on immediately after I wake up now because I've been sleeping a lot lately and I have places to be in the evening

[jjh927]

I don't consider that a crumb from the worst. Oxy might be scum who killed what thehy thought was a crumb and got a false positive.

This was my first reaction but now that he's explained a clearly town-motivated but completely abnormal and unexpectable strategy that explains how he played after finding the crumb, and it appears he also outed that he thought it was a crumb unprompted before he did it just now, he's basically locktown.

It's too out-there as a strategy for scum to think of it as a way of looking town, imo, so it must be town doing the town thing. Oxy is locktown.

Going roleplaying, this was a last check before I do so

[jjh927]

I lied I'm using data waiting for the bus

Can you give an example of you doing that because I'm a sceptical person

[jjh927]

Lets Lynch CJ today.

2moro its me or Momo.

Its getting to the point I'd happily lay down my Slot to prove what an Asshat Momo is.

WTF is this post?

VOTE: Alonzo

[jjh927]

That above quote reads as a very poor attempt at tunneling someone who, for the record, is town.

Paraphrased it's basically "Look at me I'm deathtunneling because I think Eddie is a bad person"

[jjh927]

lowkey thinking the CJ wagon is only going up so fast because Eddie wanted to lynch Alonzo anyway

[jjh927]

Or you could talk to me

[jjh927]

Expand on your thoughts of Momo being an asshat

[jjh927]

That above quote reads as a very poor attempt at tunneling someone who, for the record, is town.

Paraphrased it's basically "Look at me I'm deathtunneling because I think Eddie is a bad person"

Dude, you are reading into that post way too much. It either comes from Town or it's LAMIST, but it's def NOT clear just based off that one post that Alonzo is Scum. It's completely NAI.

Let me push

[jjh927]

We have 2 days so no, let me push

[jjh927]

That is not necessarily my intention though it is one possible endpoint

[jjh927]

And yeah it totally is

[jjh927]

Actually, gonna be blunt, did you want me to go "Oh yeah I guess you're right 2 days isn't enough time to achieve anything so I guess I should just not have an effect on the game" or were you being obstructive for the sake of it?

[jjh927]

Oi Alonzo, don't you go off on Eddie I'm not done with you

[jjh927]

What exactly did you mean when you said Momo was an asshat

[jjh927]

uh, oops quotes. dont know what happened

I almost want to say this is an LOL!Clear.

Don't because it's not at all

[jjh927]

Why does NM even exist

[jjh927]

BTW, NM hammered without a claim and that is bad.

This is what NM does, and most people just seem to have accepted that this is what he does. It's something people play around. It's why NM should be policy lynched day 1 every game until he stops doing it.

[jjh927]

Scum is still NM, pint, Alonzo as far as I can see. CJ and mutant can be considered my room for error and one of them is getting lynched.

In an ideal world lynch NM then Alonzo

[jjh927]

I was just thinking that

[jjh927]

Because scum know who the hider is unless they no-killed for this exact reason

[jjh927]

I think it's easier to assume scum hit the hider though

[jjh927]

Kinda have to, on thinking about it, because next night scum jailkeep and kill them if they know who it is meaning hider guilties become untrustworthy

[jjh927]

Yeah I say hider outs

[jjh927]

Oh wait yeah I'm dumb

[jjh927]

I was thinking of it only as a roleblocker

[jjh927]

Thing is, I don't think revealed or unrevealed hider can take the risk of crumbing now so they'd be worthless as a guilty, and they get permajailed if scum know who they are and we don't know if scum know so the innos are worthless too

[jjh927]

Hider should 100% reveal. I'm on the hider reveal train. 2 innos and a conftown vs nothing at all from not revealing

[jjh927]

By hiding behind town

[jjh927]

Abilities:

Hide: Every night, you may target a player to hide behind them. If your target is a member of the mafia or the Vigilante, you will die. If your target dies that night, you will die.

On nights that you hide, you will be immune to mafia and Vigilante kills.

[jjh927]

Oh neat Pintu hider then?

[jjh927]

It's a worthless crumb if he didn't state any targets

[jjh927]

Yeah sure mutant can replace you in the 3 people I think are scum. I'd still rather do Not_Mafia today but aside from maybe the Havingfitz slot I'm confident everyone who isn't in my scumreads is town

VOTE: mutant

[jjh927]

You're supposed to crumb hider targets, not results

[jjh927]

Btw that CJ lynch was bad play and you should be ashamed

[jjh927]

Shouldn't rule out tracker but I can't imagine not taking vig with fuckin NM in the game

[jjh927]

Actually it must be unless they shot Pint N1

[jjh927]

I still stand by that

[jjh927]

Oh shit yeah that invalidates the point of taking vig just to kill NM

[jjh927]

Tracker it is

[jjh927]

That's a great idea if we lynch the jailkeeper

[jjh927]

If we lynch a goon they should be anywhere else

[jjh927]

Same

[jjh927]

If you do announce someone you're gonna target, be sure it's scum. If it's scum, they won't let you die. If it's town, they can either kill you and your target, or they can jailkeep you for wifom.

If you don't announce who you're gonna target, be sure it's town, for obvious reasons.

Either way, crumbing is basically announcing your target

[jjh927]

There is a final option where you don't target anyone whether announced or not and you probably don't die unless scum are really ballsy and really on-point

[jjh927]

{Momo, Pint, Oxy}
{Quick}
Without isoing I'm comfortable with those 4 town. Theres 10 alive. Find 1-2 more town, and games over depending on if one of us 4 is tracker.
{Sando, Fitz} - still townie slots. need to review predecessors though for fitz and sandos iso. Games probably over just lynching below here tbh.
{JJ} Slightly pinged in catchup, overall still pretty townie. Random was very meh though.
{NM}
{Mutant, Alonzo}

Eddie we've almost synchronised

Objectively town: me, pint, oxy
Town: Quick, Momo, Sando
Townlean: Fitz
Scum: Mutant, Alonzo, NM

[jjh927]

actually there's nothing special about that with 2 conftowns and a load of obvtowns nvm

[jjh927]

Wagon up then

[jjh927]

Remember to declare intent to L-1 this time around to give mutant the chance to claim

[jjh927]

OK, way too many people agreeing on Scum which tells me something is amiss.

We're all agreeing on scum because PoE at this point in the game with this many obvtowns and conftowns is piss easy

[jjh927]

Yeah you do

[jjh927]

Quick, I don't get why you think you can't do PoE without lynching a scum.

Mutant is L-2

[jjh927]

We have 2 town confirmed and scum lynches don't confirm town any more than normal locktown reads

[jjh927]

I mean, I'd feel much better about lynching NM, ngl

[jjh927]

I'd feel bad if mutant flipped town. I wouldn't feel bad if NM flipped town. I think NM is more likely to be scum than Mutant.

[jjh927]

The people who want to lynch NM - Is this based on a meta read, or because he is difficult to read and has lol hammered two town?

He's difficult to read, has lolhammered two town, needs to be policy lynched every game he is in until he stops lolhammering, and PoE suggests he has a vastly above average chance of flipping scum

[jjh927]

Declaring the hide behind NM is a good call here, I think

[jjh927]

I think everyone agrees that there's 3 scum in me, NM, Alonzo, Mutant, Fitz

[jjh927]

VOTE: Not Mafia

[jjh927]

VOTE: Alonzo

Yeah this is better

[jjh927]

Btw mutant, you're barking up the wrong tree. I still maintain that nobody's PR hunting is going to be significantly better than random chance, and I'm pretty sure Eddie agrees with me

[jjh927]

Probably worth weighing up CC stuff-

Let's assume mutant is lying and someone is in a position to CC.

If mutant is the jailkeeper, mutant makes the kill and jails someone, making the track functionally worthless as the tracker already knows mutant is scum. In this case, tracker ccing must be optimal.
If mutant is a goon, mutant will still almost certainly make the kill, but the jailkeeper will still exist, meaning there is a decent shot at catching them. This is probably most optimal where we lynch a goon, as the track would essentially be able to clear people or catch the jailkeeper, unless the jailkeeper decided to do nothing (which itself allows pintu to do the hider thing).
If we're gonna lynch scum, not claiming is probably optimal, but not certain.


I think I can see arguments either way?

PEdit: Why should tracker track NM if we're already doing the hider target thing?

[jjh927]

And I wasn't talking to you

[jjh927]

Quick, how are you so oblivious to everything yet still capable of seeing things that aren't actually there

[jjh927]

I think if we lynch Alonzo here we have the biggest chance of getting the jailkeeper. Scum aren't going to want to bus their jailkeeper and I don't think he's been particularly targeted by other scummy players

[jjh927]

Eh, it's a solved game anyway, and I can make it more solved for everyone else. I'm the real tracker.

VOTE: mutant

Random checked quick n1 who did nothing, and I checked pintu last night. Seriously thought I had a guilty because he didn't crumb targets but I'm glad I waited for the hider claim thing to resolve

[jjh927]

I mean, it might be a good call if you want me to get a track off, but we're gonna have to lynch mutant eventually

[jjh927]

This particular hider is only immune to kills when they hide

[jjh927]

I'm maybe 50/50 between mutant and Alonzo for the jailkeeper fwiw

[jjh927]

I switched off of NM after realising that confscum was voting NM meaning he isn't jailkeeper

[jjh927]

Fwiw if I was in this from the start rather than taking over from Random I'd have been a vig and NM and Alonzo would be dead in that order

[jjh927]

Quick, can you stop being a tool for the rest of the game

[jjh927]

NAR has clear guidelines for when roles CONFLICT. There is no conflict between this version of hider and jailkeeper

[jjh927]

I wouldn't hide behind quick. 2/3 he's town just on the track N1

[jjh927]

I wouldn't hide behind quick. 2/3 he's town just on the track N1

How do you figure 2/3?

I'm assuming jailkeeper jails and a goon does the kill. Therefore, 1 goon does nothing and would come up as a no result, which is what I got. Which means 2 scum in 3 would have been a guilty, and were not, which means you have two thirds of an inno as far as I am concerned.

[jjh927]

OOOooh yeah no I completely support that

[jjh927]

He's just so sure he understands things when he doesn't it's infuriating

[jjh927]

I'd rather just get this out of the way and lynch mutant so I can be nightkilled and blame other people for dumb lynches if we lose

[jjh927]

It's just your general attitude to what you use to support your arguments. Like, you're coming up with any old crap and acting like it's a solid reasoning. You're sort of going off doing your own thing, which is not a particularly helpful or correct thing, and then you come back and get confused when everyone else is on a different page than you.

PEdit: You missed fitz, Oxy

[jjh927]

Oh right

[jjh927]

Why don't we lynch Alonzo and not be wrong, if we're gonna not lynch Mutant

[jjh927]

Any order in which we lynch Mutant, Alonzo, and NM will win us the game so IDM

[jjh927]

@JJ

>You're the tracker
>Mutantdevle claims your role

Walk me through the thought processes that lead you to make these posts.

Well, basically, there was talk of not CCing and there is no point in not CCing if you're blatantly obviously the tracker to scum.

[jjh927]

Yeah Sando said that if he claimed tracker, tracker should not CC

[jjh927]

paraphrased ofc

[jjh927]

Ok only quick doesn't understand, but that's no surprise and probably unable to be rectified in this lifetime so:

Intent to give NM the lolhammer on mutant.

BTW if mutant claims tracker don't CC please real tracker and we simply lynch within alonzo/JJ/Fitz.

[jjh927]

...is that a slip

[jjh927]

Phrasing suggests he knew mutant was not a tracker

[jjh927]

Eh, it's a solved game anyway, and I can make it more solved for everyone else. I'm the real tracker.

VOTE: mutant

Random checked quick n1 who did nothing, and I checked pintu last night. Seriously thought I had a guilty because he didn't crumb targets but I'm glad I waited for the hider claim thing to resolve

Well I'm no longer liking JJH as town

Why did you decide to check Pintu?

Why are you attempting to engage with me? I checked Pintu because I scumread Pintu but he wasn't going to get lynched over the natural course of the game like my other scumreads.

[jjh927]

I mean, it might be a good call if you want me to get a track off, but we're gonna have to lynch mutant eventually

I'm sure you'd prefer the eventually to the immediately.

Nope I'd rather you die so I can get nightkilled and get on with my life

[jjh927]

It's mutant alonzo NM, innit

[jjh927]

This is what I was referring to when I said Eddie would agree with me

[jjh927]

Oxy, if you're gonna iso me to try to figure out if I'm really the tracker, go for the early day 2 stuff. I didn't crumb but I think some of the minor frustration at not being a vig as well as almost having a guilty that turned out to be a non guilty must have got in there. I do remember going unnecessarily hard into the spec of vig vs tracker just because, if anything, that makes me seem like I'm not the vig/tracker. Also note that I got on the hider outing train pretty fast because of the almost-guilty. (it was an inno too, fwiw, because there is no scenario from my pov in which the target of an action wasn't town, unless scum were using jailkeeper defensively which I wouldn't expect.)

[jjh927]

Day 3 even

[jjh927]

I can do subtleties

[jjh927]

...is that a slip

Outside of certain instances like Mylo or single scum etc, it's almost always better to lynch outside of a claim, without CCing. The claim had better gamesolve for you, otherwise wait for independent confirmation before acting, doing this as town provides cover for the real person, and if the real person dies...well that fakeclaim is getting lynched.

Had this come up in 712 recently where I was the tracker and scum fake claimed in a game with SK, decent shot of getting the SK to kill the fakeclaimer there, except that I was forced to go into massive detail about and basically out myself, so it didn't work

Nearly done with my wallpost of explainy, sorry was working till 10 last night

The potential slip was where your phrasing indicated you knew that mutant wasn't the tracker

[jjh927]

UNVOTE:

Sando strategy makes too much sense

[jjh927]

I mean yeah I kinda wanted to die and get it out of the way. I feel you there, Eddie.

But this actually does give us more info, in a way we wouldn't get otherwise. It would also be technically beneficial to get the numbers back into odd numbers because if we go into 4 player mylo at some point then we can't no-lynch

VOTE: Alonzo

[jjh927]

Yeah but the alternative of lynching mutant doesn't really account for scum sando any more than this and I know that we do not occupy the wild universe

[jjh927]

Oh that was a lot of posts I missed the page

[jjh927]

I'm still tempted to go back to mutant because I have exams coming up tomorrow and friday and forgetting about the game would be nice

[jjh927]

Just, Sando's explanation of the strat made a whole lot of sense

[jjh927]

Eh?

[jjh927]

I'm looking at a strategy where I'm mostly sure we win, and another strategy which is exactly the same as the first one except it's got a slightly increased chance of winning

[jjh927]

VOTE: mutant

It's good advice for me passing that exam that's tomorrow though

[jjh927]

Note for Havingfitz- I did the thing where I call 3 scum at the start of the day before I get nightkilled

[jjh927]

Eh?

If we get the tracker right we win and the 5/5 is correct, we win no matter what. My entire plan is about how to minimise the negatives of mislynching the tracker. You cannot mislynch the tracker as the tracker, so if you're the towntracker you're the one person in the game that definitively should be pushing for the mutant lynch.

I thought the whole plan was to get slightly more info on NM

[jjh927]

Announce your hide for the event that he flips jailkeeper and nothing else

[jjh927]

lol

[jjh927]

Quick, you need to learn not to instinctively disagree with people

[jjh927]

If we kill Oxy and Pint tonight then Quick might throw.

[jjh927]

I was up for the tracker plan until you told me not to be

[jjh927]

I was up for the tracker plan until you told me not to be

Also by eod I was 90% sure scum would kill you anyway and just throw mutant under the bus, main part was to not CC and trust where I was directing.

Yeah I couldn't not CC when the whole thing happened with the explicit non-counterclaiming thing.