Newbie 1881 - Game Over

[nancy]

I'll be around tomorrow night, I had my little girl today and snuggling on the couch took precedent over reading here.

ok_hand

[nancy]

@WhyMafia would be cool if you talk about your reads outside Eragon/Oka

[nancy]

Oh my god yeah lmao I'm just going to lock Trinity as town now I think.

[nancy]

Should i catch up by going through the 6-7 pages of thread or just looking at everyone's ISO?

This question is very... Um.

I'm not sure how effective of a description Um is, but this is definitely that.

[nancy]

I need more words from WhyMafia about how his read on Oka changed and why he dropped his push to go onto Eragon because the way that played out feels like he was a spinning top that lost momentum and clinked to a halt against the tabletop and the sound of the clink is the sound I hear in my dreams when I think about scum.

[nancy]

OK, so I know this is going to make me look flaky, but looking for evidence has just made me confused! FF looks to me like apart from the interaction with Quick, he’s mainly spent time leaning on Oka and not really putting in the effort on everyone else. And I don’t think he’s tried hard to defend the votes on him. But I’ve had to admit that I do like that he’s after Oka as I think Oka could be scum, which would possibly, but not definitely, mean that FF isn’t.

I have FF and Oka as hard unaligned.

[nancy]

Nancy - strong town. We all know why.
Oka - scum lean, mainly because of the weak case he was trying to make on me, and poor answers to questions others have asked.
Iceman - slight town lean, as I’ve liked his theory posts, although his vote on Quick seemed a bit forced, and not for the best of reasons. I don’t think not reading posts is AI.
Quick - slight scum lean. I initially didn’t think scum would be so blasé about the attack from IceMan. But some of his posts are scummy sounding, like ‘you are trying to upset me more and get me to make a mistake’. As mafia in the last game I worried about making mistakes, but in this game I’m not worried so much as what sort of mistakes can I make? I mean, I can make silly mistakes where people might think I’m stupid, but I can’t think what type of think a ‘mistake’ I could make that would be really bad.
Flicker - slight scum lean, the unvote of Oka seems strange.
Eragon - town lean originally, as he came in with a hiss and a roar, but that has tapered off, so null at the moment.
Why Mafia - town lean. I’m linking his posts. He’s put in a lot of effort really quickly and looks like he’s making an effort to understand the game, and made some good cases.
FF - was my strongest scum lean, but I’m backing off that, as noted above.

This is actually scary. For reasons. I will explain later, lmao.

[nancy]

You are not the worst player ever, lmao. Not even close.

Unaligned means they're not mafia together. Hard/soft are just terms of likelihood. Hard unaligned is like they're never together, soft unaligned is like they could be together but probably not the most likely pairing.

[nancy]

Bluh. I feel really depleted but I'll try to catch up I guess.

[nancy]

VOTE: Oka

I'm hoping on the Oka wagon.

I'm revising my read on Trinity to town. So Trinity, and FF are both my town players along with Nancy.

Come on Nancy, get on the wagon.

I also think Eragon and Why_Mafia have a town lean.

Sooo.... That leaves Flicker, Oka, and Quick.


Quick has moved slightly less scummy. Flicker is for all intents and purposes null to me.

So..... Time to push Oka.

I don't get the constant "Tell me why you think I'm scum so I can debunk" posts from Oka. Does that not seem like a good way to learn how to post to avoid specific peoples scumdars? I also don't like how defensive Oka is. For me a Townie is completely ok with being lynched as long as it provides a path to winning for town. So I would think a town player would be scum hunting and ignoring most of the stuff sent their way from fellow town player. To me the only time to address other peoples scum reads on me are a quick clarification to any questions/concerns and then move on. Don't bring it up again unless the person's reasons are scummy.

Bolded part feels like an unlikely approach from mafia. FF/Oka reads seem consistent, which feels good.

Tone in the concluding paragraph rings somewhere in the town register. I dislike his paradigmatic approach, but I find it difficult to parse how much of it is playstyle and how much of it is alignment. Gun to head, playstyle.

The way he's positioning himself on Oka feels good.

I continue to townread Iceman yet not feel greatly confident in my townread on Iceman, I guess.

[nancy]

@nancy opinion on defensive tells?

I think tells are things that shouldn't be things.

What do you mean by "defensive tells", specifically, though?

[nancy]

I have to skip Ficker's walls until I have a little more brainpower, sorry.

Fyi, whenever you want to address something to the mod, bold your text so that there's less chance of the mod missing it, like so:

@Mod

. I don't always read my gamethreads when I'm modding outside of picking out bolded text from players, especially when I am quickly skimming to make a votecount. Other mods have this habit, too.

[nancy]

some people, including myself to an extent, feel that being overly defensive is indicative of scum alignment

I think that's silly. It's not that simple. Being defensive is a sign that you're being defensive. If someone is being defensive, why are they being defensive? The answer to that question is a clue that may lead you to their alignment.

[nancy]

@flicker i think formerfish has a decent chance at being scum, but I'm townreading quick right now.

Where did these reads come from?

[nancy]

but then again i have better scumreads than formerfish being scum so actually i think rn the highest chance is both ff and quick being town

...What?

You just called FF scum.

Is he mafia, or is he town?

You make no sense.

[nancy]

I'm saying you're tonally off in that sense. Like yeah, it gave me that impression, but I haven't seen that pushing or prodding. You've been passive and all your questions seem superficial. To me, you're coasting and giving an illusion of participating. You called people scummy, but then become wishy washy. Case in point, your reads list. Most of your reads are null/slightly scummy. The person who you seemed to shade, Flicker, you didn't even announce as scum? You never gave an actual read (unless I'm blind) and despite alluding to her being scum, and you being confident, I don't see that drive to see her lynched.

Thus, you are scum

I think your conclusion about his alignment is connected to the reasoning that you've presented in a way that makes sense.

[nancy]

Honestly, I don't care or want to know about you debunking anything about my scum read on you. If I think you're scum why would you say anything truthful to me?

What I do care about is how everyone else reacts to my reads and debunks or proves it. I also care about your reads on other people and how you prove them.

I really strongly agree with this approach, as long as you don't let confirmation bias bleed into your read and start assuming that you're right and that everything that your scumread is saying and doing is a lie. Always keep an open mind and be ready to reassess if something happens to challenge your worlds.

[nancy]

I'm saying you're tonally off in that sense. Like yeah, it gave me that impression, but I haven't seen that pushing or prodding. You've been passive and all your questions seem superficial. To me, you're coasting and giving an illusion of participating. You called people scummy, but then become wishy washy. Case in point, your reads list. Most of your reads are null/slightly scummy. The person who you seemed to shade, Flicker, you didn't even announce as scum? You never gave an actual read (unless I'm blind) and despite alluding to her being scum, and you being confident, I don't see that drive to see her lynched.

Thus, you are scum

I think your conclusion about his alignment is connected to the reasoning that you've presented in a way that makes sense.

Ugh. I left out the negative auxiliary. Sorry.

I

don't

think your conclusion about his alignment is connected to the reasoning that you've presented in a way that makes sense

[nancy]

i think i explained quick? if not assume i said something really compelling and quote things about interactions

Quick question.

How do you think I'm ever going to be able to get to a townread on you when I have to constantly turn my head around in circles like a voodoo doll just to keep up with your reads?

[nancy]

wow! contradiction! lets lynch her now

@nancy do you think there is a strong chance that one of ff/me is scum?

No.

[nancy]

I would elaborate on that but I'm exhausted and my read on both of you is pretty conflicted right now.

[nancy]

getting a townread on me is not important as long as there is a better lynch today

I don't think I could possibly disagree with this sentiment more than I do.

Your most important job as town, the number 1 thing on your to-do list, your first and highest priority, if you do one thing and absolutely nothing else in the game, should be to clear yourself as town to the rest of town.

You don't have to catch all the mafia. You don't have to catch ANY mafia. If you clear yourself as town, if the rest of town is able to see you as town, you've done your job, that's good enough.

yeah my reads are changing very erratically but thats the result of lack of hard conviction in a lot of them + me constantly revisiting my reads and refining them

Well, you need to clean up your process. If you lack conviction, don't pretend to have conviction. Don't swing around on gut feelings that lead you in 8 directions at once. Slow down. Work through your reasoning and don't abandon it just because your gut leads you the other way. Your gut is a tool to get you to pay attention to something, to investigate it and reason through what you think it means. Gut is not a thing you should rely on any more than meta is. Slow down. Work through your reasoning. Keep notes. Spend time outside of thread figuring out what your reads are and why. Slow down.

Slow. Down.

[nancy]

I feel like quoting the above post ten times because I want you to read it ten times. You really need to learn this lesson, Oka.

And maybe you're just mafia and that's why you're playing like this but if you're town you need to read and reread that post and take everything I wrote in there to heart and try to apply it to your play.

[nancy]

So if you want to talk about my reads on others or your reads on others let's do it.

ok_hand

[nancy]

Briefly, it would be something about how catching up and interacting with other people is sort of the bare minimum for any player, with maybe a side of "Are you sure you're not just town reading him for having a similar posting/play style?" depending on how salty I felt. (Admittedly, I also sometimes town read people based on having a similar posting/play style, which is another thing I'm trying to work on.)

I like that Oka asked the question that prompted this response, and I dislike the response. I don't think it makes very much sense for town to be salty about someone getting a townread on someone else unless you scumread the person they're townreading, and I quickly checked Flicker's posts for her stance on Quick and she seems to have him as slightly town, so, this reaction from her doesn't make sense to me if she's town.

[nancy]

huh ok

I would disagree on the obv town being town priority tho. Catching mafia should imo be number one priority.

It really shouldn't and I don't have the energy to explain why coherently or in much detail right now. Maybe another day.

Essentially, though, you should be looking at the game from the following perspective: 8 slots in the game whose alignment you don't know, each with a 75% chance of being town, 3 mislynches before mafia overrun the town. That means if you correctly lock in townreads on 5 slots (and there's only a baseline 25% chance that you can be wrong on it in the first place), you can close your eyes lynch every other slot in the game and you'll win as town.

Now imagine you just forego townreads and only focus on scumreads. What do you do when you reach 5p LyLo with no townreads and 2 mafia alive? You curl up in a ball and cry, that's what. Because if you have no townreads you have no basis from which to solve the game, you have no one who to talk to who you can trust, and it's going to be incredibly easy for the mafia team to manipulate you into a mislynch.

[nancy]

after some thought

i think two of the scum are in
iceman/trinity/eragon

Por qué, hombre?

[nancy]

My process is kinda uneven. Thats why if you look at my game history right now its gonna be all newbie games. I had something personal happen about a year ago and I left the game as a result of my outside emotions not being able to take the emotions of the game. I have recently been feeling better and have been using the games in my attempt to become more active with other people even if it is just in post form. Most of my conversations lately have been with a 5yo, so its nice to be around equals for a bit. Coming back I really wanted to focus on honing my game play, because I felt like I had become to erratic. So in essence its like I went to the majors, got a case of the yips and now I am back down in the minor leagues figuring out who I am again.

Less than three.

Just so you're aware, I generally am not going to get much from you talking to me about my scumread on you, or you trying to address things directly to me that I've said I have concerns about. Unless you think I'm like clearly misunderstanding you and something that I've said needs to be clarified, the way that I'll be able to reassess on you here and get a townread on you if you're town is by you just doing your thing and being as transparent about it as possible.

But um, I think I said in there that I struggle to understand your reads and that's something that you can pretty easily address by, well, talking about them.

So I'm being scumread for a meta case on Oka, but trinity gets an okay sure I guess for a meta read on me that she has even admitted isn't as strong as she thought it was because I was alive for day 1 before she night killed me night 1.

It's a small thing that I dislike, you're not being scumread simply because you have a meta read. That would be silly. And I think you misunderstood the post? I was specifically saying that as a thing that I didn't like about her. It wasn't a "sure, that's fine", it was a "ugh, do you have to", and the span of that thought was that her read was shallow. Did you not get that? Because I felt like I expressed that pretty clearly and I can't tell if you're just looking for a gripe there or not.

[nancy]

My eyes are about to burn holes in my skull, gotta take a break. Bbl.

[nancy]

Im working on not throwing my vote around like Dirk Digler at a step class.

Best line ever! Thank you, you’ve made my day (which was pretty shitty).

Hugs. Mine sucked too.

Help me see how you got to town on FF?

[nancy]

I’m not pushing on you any more remember? I had another look at your posts and thought I might be wrong. After reading more tonight, I’m liking what I’m seeing and I’m thinking you are definitely town.

Um. Please show your work?

That's a kinda big swing.

[nancy]

I am going off the assumption that you want to make sure I am not full of shit in what I am saying. I don't need to provide examples for that if you can figure it out yourself if what I am saying has merit or not.

Quick, people can't read your mind. The only way we can understand you is if you explain yourself in ways that make sense to us. We can't know what things you're referring to when you say "his posts are town motivated but what they are pushing is suspect", because that description is extremely vague.

"Town motivated" can mean literally anything for all we know, and unless you actually explain specifically what you think is town motivated, those are just two empty words that furthermore have no connection to anything that has happened in this game. Likewise for the "what they are pushing is suspect". It's unreasonable to expect someone to know what you're talking about, and it's unfair to treat them like they're stupid and bad for not knowing.

[nancy]

Nancy, I was referring to what I’d said about FF in this post.

Okay, so you think he's town because you think that Oka is mafia and that FF and Oka are never mafia partners?

What if you're wrong, and Oka is town?

[nancy]

FF seems to be doing an awful lot of self-meta recently which is kinda questionable after him being a main wagon.

Didn't you just back off your scumread?

The way you're shading FF here is pretty sketchy.

[nancy]

i think your both town and should redirect your focus on finding the scum in eragon/trinity/iceman trio

@nancy reads rn on eragon/trinity/iceman?

Same as before my dude. Let me know if you want my take on anything specific about them.

[nancy]

Well, I come out of page 30 feeling pretty tired of FF and Quick going at each other, sort of moving towards them both being town but don't have any super strongly feelings about it. The way Quick just transitioned from that into talking about his reads felt genuine, I think.

@FF @Quick if you two could try to minimize interactions with each other that would be pretty helpful. I really don't want this game to get bogged down by conflict between you two, especially not after I'm dead and not around to put a stop to it.

[nancy]

getting a townread on me is not important as long as there is a better lynch today

God I read this post again and I'm like.

This is, to a T, 100%, exactly what scum mindset looks like.

All scum need each dayphase is to dodge the lynch, be a little more town than someone else, make someone else look scummier than they are.

I just don't know whether OkaPoka is actually scum for saying it.

Like, can he really be having that thought as town here? Can he honestly think that it's not important for me or anyone else to get a townread on him?

It's like, kind of inherent to our condition as town to want to be townread. We don't like people thinking we're mafia, getting our alignment wrong. It feels bad. But Oka just... doesn't care?

This is like. Too Wolfy To Be A Wolf type territory, which is all through his ISO, not just this post. And at a certain point I think like... well, maybe he is actually just a wolf?

Ugh.

[nancy]

Alright, I'm going to head back and see if I can dig through that Flicker wall then hopefully do a reread of FF and go over my Oka/FF/Flicker reads and probably move my vote. Feel like I'm just going to end up voting Flicker here because I don't want the Oka wagon to be a runaway thing and I think Flicker needs a lot more attention than she's been getting, but I do want to give her the benefit of the doubt as much as possible and see if I can't find something in her ISO that looks town.

[nancy]

I can't make heads or tails of the Flicker post. I can't tell if it's just that she's a newb and is reading into things in a really strange way or if it's that she has a ton of TMI and I don't think I'm in the right frame of mind to try right now.

@Flicker I really need you to be more present. You have less posts than the mod right now and that's really not okay. I really need more from you here because I think you might be mafia and there's just enough for me to go off to see that you're town if you are here. You don't have to make wallposts. Your posts don't have to be truthbombs or full of gems. Just a bit of thread presence and sharing your thoughts on things that are happening would go a long way.


Kinda want to move my vote onto WhyMafia but I do need to go over FF properly and figure out my read on him and I'm super wiped and can't do it now.

[nancy]

Meh.

Vote: Flicker

Please do things.

[nancy]

I think my issue with Flicker is that I'm going to feel sick if I get her lynched because of things she can't help doing because she's a newb. I so badly just need more from the slot and will hopefully be able to figure it out if she's town.

[nancy]

I know nancy has a strong town read here, but its just not there for me.

I don't really get this. My reads aren't necessarily better than anyone else's.

[nancy]

Take care, I'm out for the night. Please be friendly with each other.

[nancy]

Talk to me about ff, write up a case with some evidence

OK, so I know this is going to make me look flaky, but looking for evidence has just made me confused! FF looks to me like apart from the interaction with Quick, he’s mainly spent time leaning on Oka and not really putting in the effort on everyone else. And I don’t think he’s tried hard to defend the votes on him. But I’ve had to admit that I do like that he’s after Oka as I think Oka could be scum, which would possibly, but not definitely, mean that FF isn’t.

My current thinking is:

Nancy - strong town. We all know why.
Oka - scum lean, mainly because of the weak case he was trying to make on me, and poor answers to questions others have asked.
Iceman - slight town lean, as I’ve liked his theory posts, although his vote on Quick seemed a bit forced, and not for the best of reasons. I don’t think not reading posts is AI.
Quick - slight scum lean. I initially didn’t think scum would be so blasé about the attack from IceMan. But some of his posts are scummy sounding, like ‘you are trying to upset me more and get me to make a mistake’. As mafia in the last game I worried about making mistakes, but in this game I’m not worried so much as what sort of mistakes can I make? I mean, I can make silly mistakes where people might think I’m stupid, but I can’t think what type of think a ‘mistake’ I could make that would be really bad.
Flicker - slight scum lean, the unvote of Oka seems strange.
Eragon - town lean originally, as he came in with a hiss and a roar, but that has tapered off, so null at the moment.
Why Mafia - town lean. I’m linking his posts. He’s put in a lot of effort really quickly and looks like he’s making an effort to understand the game, and made some good cases.
FF - was my strongest scum lean, but I’m backing off that, as noted above.

UNVOTE: FormerFish

Oh, I forgot to say why this post scared me.

You were like, partially inside my brain, it felt like. Mostly the timing of your Oka read and how you backed off FF. I'd been kind of thinking about doing that for a while, then you did it, and you even had the unaligned read as well. Your reads were also really similar to mine. Was spooky.

[nancy]

Less than three?

Is a loveheart.

So you dont want me to interact with you directly to help you read me, you want to do it more passively as an observer with how I interact with everyone else?

Um, no, I'm saying that it doesn't help me if I say I have x,y,z reasons why I think you could be mafia and you make a post at me detailing all the reasons why that's wrong. If you are doing something like not talking about your reads and that is concerning to me, you can address my concern by talking about your reads or maybe briefly telling me why you haven't talked about your reads, but it's not helpful for me if you write an essay about why it's wrong of me to scumread you for not talking about your reads.

I am more than willing to discuss anything in specific that you would like to. Ask me a question and lets see where we end up.

I mean, I already did this in 562. Read the last paragraph again?

This is the whole point of why I'm saying the thing about how you address my read on you. Your response was to give me a bunch of words about yourself, which is nice, but... doesn't really help me and sort of misses the point.

[nancy]

Kinda want to move my vote onto WhyMafia

Where did this come from? You mentioned him like twice and I didnt get the vibe you were sorting him into the scum bin with either mention.

The fact that you vote flicker in the post after has me a little miffed with your conversation towards Oka about slowing down. Its like you just did the thing you told him not to.

Uhm? They are both below null for me, and I can only vote one of them. I don't think you understood what I was saying to Oka if you think being conflicted about where I want to vote is similar to that?

I need more words from WhyMafia about how his read on Oka changed and why he dropped his push to go onto Eragon because the way that played out feels like he was a spinning top that lost momentum and clinked to a halt against the tabletop and the sound of the clink is the sound I hear in my dreams when I think about scum.

[nancy]

Town is on to you.

I think its the comments like this that come off as desperate to me. Like someone trying to fit in based off 80's information. Like it seems legit, but something is off about it.

I agree with this, btw, but I kinda think it's just the way she talks.

[nancy]

Town is on to you.

I think its the comments like this that come off as desperate to me. Like someone trying to fit in based off 80's information. Like it seems legit, but something is off about it.

I agree with this, btw, but I kinda think it's just the way she talks.

Its going to be hard for me to read trinity this game. She only has 1 in and it was a scum game. I just dont remember her speaking like this last game and in the back of my mind im thinking she is going overboard acting townie because she thinks its going to hide her when it just makes her stick out.

What did it for me with the townread was how honest/genuine she felt when responding to concerns on her.

[nancy]

Gotta admit though it's pretty discomforting how she just keeps missing stuff in thread. Like, this keeps happening. Are you just not reading every post or something Trinity?

Nancy, I was referring to what I’d said about FF in this post.

Okay, so you think he's town because you think that Oka is mafia and that FF and Oka are never mafia partners?

What if you're wrong, and Oka is town?

@Trinity

[nancy]

Meh. I guess I shouldn't be townreading Trinity as strongly as I am.

[nancy]

getting a townread on me is not important as long as there is a better lynch today

God I read this post again and I'm like.

This is, to a T, 100%, exactly what scum mindset looks like.

All scum need each dayphase is to dodge the lynch, be a little more town than someone else, make someone else look scummier than they are.

I just don't know whether OkaPoka is actually scum for saying it.

Like, can he really be having that thought as town here? Can he honestly think that it's not important for me or anyone else to get a townread on him?

It's like, kind of inherent to our condition as town to want to be townread. We don't like people thinking we're mafia, getting our alignment wrong. It feels bad. But Oka just... doesn't care?

This is like. Too Wolfy To Be A Wolf type territory, which is all through his ISO, not just this post. And at a certain point I think like... well, maybe he is actually just a wolf?

Ugh.

I would actually have to completely disagree with this being a scum mindset, because this isn't how I would play scum. I just recently played a newbie-scum game if you want to meta dive me and verify this.
Scum wants to dodge lynches yes that is true, but scum also aren't playing to merely just nearly avoid being the most scummy because that is simply a risk not worth taking. People in this game are rarely consistent and they are also rarely completely rational players, thus in order to dodge a lynch, the primary goal of scum would be not to appear a bit more townie, but the most townie because otherwise the swing of town might still end up with a lynch on a null!OkaPoka.

Yeah it is inherent as town to want to be townread, but it isn't nor should it be the primary concern of town to be the towniest of them all. That's scum wincon, scum doesn't need lynches to win, they just need to make sure town either mislynches, or fails to lynch and they can solve the game based on NK's. Meanwhile town has to make sure finding scum is their primary concern because ultimately without successful lynches, town loses every time. We are also playing a semi-openish setup that does not give a guarantee on investigative roles to help sole the game, nor do we have town killing roles to allow town to not need lynches to win.

In an extreme vacuum, a town that has their primary concern in making the appearance of being townie will lose every game. There needs to be at least some people who are making their whole effort hunting scum because we can't just rely on PRs to win this game for us. In a game in which town has their primary concern of being townie, they will lose because scum are also doing the same, and it makes the job of scumhunting much more difficult because to an extent, everyone is acting rather than being themselves. When everyone is composed and trying to act like town, they are acting rather than trying to win, and then the game will devolve into who can be the best actor.

Literally nobody wants to be scumread in this game, and it's not like I don't care about being scumread, it's just not worth as much time to act town when I could be selfishly developing reads on others and trying to figure things out.

The difference between scum!Oka and town!Oka is town!Oka is being genuine while scum!Oka wants to come across as genuine. I can see why you want to help me out by telling me why I should try and make an effort to appear more townie, but I think that can ultimately be somewhat detrimental advice as town shouldn't concern themselves with acting town. I find it more difficult as scum to develop genuine reads not only because I know everyone's alignment and I have ulterior motives, but because while I am in the act of appearing town, I have to tone down the aggressiveness in developing my reads and challenging other people's ideas.

I think it is a given that everyone reacts more hostile-y to people who scumread them and are pushing them, thus then the optimal play if your end goal is to be townie is to never push, never interact on a deeper level, and never challenge other people's reads. By caring so much about other people's reads on you, what ends up happening is you simply ask superficial questions and lend support to whoever you want to suck up to. You let other people game solve for you.

Okay and there is a point behind all of this, it's not just to respond to nancy's assertions.
I think this is exactly what Trinity is doing, she is being superficial and wants to give off a vibe of genuine townieness.
I don't think I need to quote examples, if you want them I will, but a lot of her posts feel like they won't go anywhere. She is overly nice with people, which could just be her personality, but what I fear is she is trying to play nice to get townread. She is rubbing shoulders with nancy(the obvtown player) a lot, and to an extent it's useless. Let's examine the game from her perspective.

Most people are marking nancy as town, she is too, obvious by 671 if you want an example, so why does she keep interacting with nancy so much? There is no need to develop reads on people you so solidly read town when you have others in which you have giant question marks over. Unless you want to inflate your post count, unless you don't want to give offense to others by hinting that you may be hostile to them, unless you don't actually care about developing genuine reads, you just want the obv town to like you and not lynch you.

Look at trinity's questions she is posing and attempting to make an attempt at interacting with others, I mean does she have a larger path with these questions? Does she have a greater point she wants to prove or expand on? I am getting the vibe that most of her questions directed towards people don't really have much direction to go, they serve no real purpose other than to make herself seem more townie, because that is her primary concern as scum.

Look all the posts Trinity has made, maybe one or two posts have some genuine direction in which they can go and she can develop upon. If we are being generous.
But most of these posts are either her trying to be friendly, or her trying to clarify herself and say look at me I am so townie XOXO.
I mean does trinity even have a desire to solve this game? I'm getting the feeling the answer to that is no.
We'll see though.

Holy shit.

Okay so, first of all, you misunderstood what I meant by clearing yourself. I wasn't saying you should be "acting town". Probably the most important way that town clears themselves is by scumhunting. But if the way that you're scumhunting makes no sense and you have no real process, then no matter how much scumhunting you do, it's all going to be indistinguishable from scum faking scumhunting.

I'll do a reread of Trinity.

[nancy]

Meta and stuff.

[nancy]

I'm gonna be honest, the first time I read this it really hurt my feelings. I said in my intro post that I'm lower activity and tend towards wallposts, and I feel like you're just attacking me based on my play style and the fact that I can't post when you're around (which is basically 100% when I'm asleep). I'm also not trying to post "truthbombs" or anything like that, I'm just trying to be as transparent as possible.

FWIW, my posting window right now is between 10 AM CDT and 2 PM CDT, and the only person who's been around during that time is Oka, whom I've engaged with a little - clearly not enough for you, but I am trying. I guess I could also try posting in the evening, when Formerfish and Quick seem to always get on, but usually I'm busy or I've depleted my energy for playing mafia earlier in the day. I can make more of an effort to break up my wall posts into more manageable chunks, but I'm not gonna upend my life for this, so if you just wanna policy lynch me for not playing well enough or whatever, go ahead.

I'm sorry it hurt your feelings.

I'm gonna spoiler this because many words.

Spoiler:

Your activity level is only one of my concerns, and not even a significant one. And what you have to understand is that part of this forum thing means that you can interact with anyone, at any time, regardless of whether you're both online together or not. You don't need to just talk to the people who are online at the same time as you. Each post you make can be read hours and days after it has been made.

I understand that you think you've projected town really well, but it's not really fair to everyone else if you expect them to just get there on you as well. Like, mafia is hard. It's hard to figure out other people's alignments. Everyone gets it wrong, all the time. If you get upset at people for not knowing that you're town just because you put in effort, just because you were transparent, you're never going to survive the game emotionally. Almost everyone in this game has been putting in effort. But not all of us are town.

Transparency helps, a lot, but it's not unfakeable and it takes a larger sample size than just a dozen posts. You can't just be transparent and expect everyone to lock you as town immediately as a result. That's why I asked you for more. We're about half way through the dayphase and you have a couple handfuls of posts and that's not enough.

That's also why I said you don't need to make such huge posts. It seems to me like you're spending a huge amount of effort on one post, and my advice is to try to spend less effort on each post so that you can get more content out. Your posts don't have to be perfect. You don't have to cross every t and dot every i. You don't need to make 50 posts or even 30. But like, 7 posts half-way through the dayphase is just not enough.

The thing is, yes, transparency is towny. It's how you get people to understand you, and if town understand each other they should hopefully townread each other. But it's also a lot easier for mafia to fake being transparent if all they ever do is make big wallposts. Mafia can carefully craft nice, big, perfect wallposts that have nothing missing and look extremely town, posts with so many words that no one wants to read them anymore and just writes them off as town. And having that kind of thread presence is a lot easier for them, because they don't have to have a hugely active hand in what is actually happening in the game, they can just curate these mini masterpieces and sit back and let town eat themselves alive.

Does that make sense to you?

[nancy]

I'm saying its not gutsy to say "you are scum!" and then not push it or really do anything much about it.

I can kind of see it two ways.

One is that she's mafia and when she tried to go and scumcase him she just couldn't find anything and gave up on the push. The process there of "fake scumread, try to talk about why, see only towniness because of TMI" is a fairly typical one for newb scum. It would also make sense for her to move to Oka given that thread temperature has been moving that way.

The other is just that she genuinely changed her mind. She went through FF's ISO with a vague idea of why she was scumreading him before, kind of ending up not really seeing the things she thought she saw before, and gave up on her push.

And as it is, the way she sort of admitted to being flaky and such when she moved over, it felt kiiiinda genuine to me? I don't think my reasoning for reading it that way is great or anything. I don't personally see anything either way from her that's pointing to it either being blatantly fake or honest. This is why I asked her the question I did, which I'm still waiting for an answer for.

[nancy]

Look at her posts. Bunch of them are compliments and supporting others, bunch of them are clarification about herself, and her questions seem to have no possible development for reads.

I don't think I'm going to be able to change my view on here without a major scum slip. Something would have to happen on D2. I'm fairly convinced she's a mislynch.

Um.

Talk to me about how you went from saying that you had a slight townread on her a few posts ago to being fairly convinced she's a mislynch now?

[nancy]

Am spoilering this post because IC stuff.

Spoiler: @Oka @Flicker

sorry isn't the point on scumhunt focused play so you don't end up in lylo having mislynched a bunch of people with 2 mafia alive?

i could see the advantage of townhunt and then PoE, but then I feel like there would be a dependency on investigative roles to solve.

I was talking about a hypothetical worst-cases scenario where you forego townhunting. I'm not saying you shouldn't scumhunt, that's ludicrous. I'm saying that townreads should be the foundation for your gamesolving. They're more reliable, there's less room for error, and bouncing back from mislynches and bad situations is easier when you have a solid town core.

From my perspective, I don't care that much about being town read, either. I mean, it sucks to be scum read, but if I get mislynched, my alignment will be revealed and people will look back over my posts, and if I've hunted well enough, maybe I can still help solve the game. I also feel like trying so hard to be town read can be a little scummy, because I feel like scum have even more motivation to be town read than town - if they can get locktowned, they've basically won the game (I would know, this is basically how town lost my first newbie game). So, yeah, it's important to be town read, but some people have a hard time being town read and are better at hunting.

Rather than trying to funnel everyone into doing this one thing, why not encourage people to play the best version of their own games? I mean, there's no one right way to play mafia, right?

I don't think I expressed myself well enough, sorry. I touched on this in an earlier post to Oka but clearing yourself, projecting town, isn't about acting or doing things that look towny. The way we clear ourselves is by doing our best to solve the game. What I was saying was that it doesn't matter if your reads are accurate. You shouldn't stress about whether or not you're bestest scumhunter ever in the history of scumhunters. That just leads to a kind of toxic mentality and playstyle, I think, and there's a looooooot of it here on mafiascum.

You should absolutely care if you're mislynched or not. You really really should. You should fight against it with everything you have, if for no other reason than that

mafia want you to be mislynched

.

Every mislynch puts town closer to losing the game, and honestly, 95% of the time? No one is going to put much consideration into anything you've done after you're dead. When you're dead, you're gone, you're not in the game anymore, people move on. Sure, they'll look at how people pushed on you, but that's about it. Like, getting yourself lynched just so that other townies can look at how people lynched you and /hopefully/ find scum in there is a hugely hugely mistaken way to approach the game. I realize you weren't saying that, but it's one step from not caring if you're scumread and that.

I'm also not saying you should freak out any time you're being scumread, or that you should be constantly thinking "god I need to get townread I need to get townread". That's not where your focus should be. It should be on finding town and finding mafia. But you should absolutely be aware that other town need to get a townread on you and sometimes they need a lot of help to get there, and you should be doing what you can to help them. (Like being transparent and engaged with the game. Both, not just one or the other.)

[nancy]

Look at her posts. Bunch of them are compliments and supporting others, bunch of them are clarification about herself, and her questions seem to have no possible development for reads.

I don't think I'm going to be able to change my view on here without a major scum slip. Something would have to happen on D2. I'm fairly convinced she's a mislynch.

Um.

Talk to me about how you went from saying that you had a slight townread on her a few posts ago to being fairly convinced she's a mislynch now?

Maybe, I'm stating it wrong. I have a slight townread on her so that would mean she's a mislynch to me if we lynched her. Why else would I lean her town if I didn't think she should not be lynched?

Okay, but the way you phrased it feels significant stronger than a slight townread. If she would need to do something majorly scummy to get you to question your townread... that's a pretty strong townread, no?

[nancy]

@nancy soooo, opinion on trinity?

More nebulous than when I woke up this morning. I haven't had time to go over my read on her again yet.

[nancy]

Oka, I think to a certain extent I'm worried that you might be scumreading Trinity for playstyle.

I'm not really interested in defending her because I have a weak spot for newbies and I can really easily get suckered in by people who seem guileless and are kind of bumbling around, and like, yeah I can look through her posts and see a bunch of ways she could be mafia making the posts that she is. But she very clearly hasn't found her legs as a player yet, regardless of her alignment in this game, and I'm not sure it's fair to expect her to be pushing things and dropping cases all over the place?

How sure are you that you're not getting a false positive on her because she's playing to your expectations and such?

[nancy]

z

"because she's

not

playing to your expectations"

[nancy]

And I think your flicker case is bad ngl. It's a pressure vote but I'm not seeing a solid indication of a scumread.

I didn't make a Flicker case lmao. Why are you suddenly trying to discredit me?

[nancy]

and in a way flicker isn't playing to your expectations

all our cases have loopholes because its day 1

That's literally not a reason to just ignore anything that might be wrong about your reads.

[nancy]

You don't even know why I'm scumreading Flicker.

[nancy]

Or was, anyway.

[nancy]

Or was, anyway.

are you going to vote me soon?

people normally don't make these types of post and then mellow out.

Spoiler:

[nancy]

Eragon, who are you voting right now and why?

[nancy]

The answer to that question is no one, and I think the reason you haven't voted anyone is because you're mafia.

Vote: Eragon

[nancy]

recently i havent had time to really mark out my reads cuz ive been busy and will be.

would it help to throw out a semi-educated vote?

do you WANT me to throw out a semi-educated vote?

You've had scumreads on Oka, Flicker and Iceman, but you've never voted one of them.

It's not about being educated. It's about you, as town, thinking that someone is scum and wanting to push on them to validate that feeling.

You haven't done that.

And what I sense from that is that maybe you don't have that drive because maybe you just aren't town.

If you are town, and there's a reason for this behavior, then please explain it.

[nancy]

would it help to throw out a semi-educated vote?

do you WANT me to throw out a semi-educated vote?

like
I dont see this coming from town
ever


????

it doesn't matter what we want, you haven't committed to anything the entire game ... even when you weren't V/LA. Yeah, you said you don't believe in pressure votes, but you also called people scum and said two people were worth voting but you didn't wanna put em on L-2. They've been off L-2 for a long time and you've just posted content over and over. I've seen you make analysis. I've seen you call people scum. But you have 0 drive, and 0 attempts at flushing out scum reads. You're not committing to anything, and the fact that you say if we want a semi-educated vote?? like that's only out of self-preservation after nancy votes you. Why didn't you choose to vote in the first place, if you're willing to vote now?

Welcome to mindmeld land.

[nancy]

I've played with Eragon and I can verify he is very stingy with his vote.

Where'd you play with him?

[nancy]

Is there a way to ISO you on that forum Eragon?

[nancy]

nancy, can you link me some of your scum games? Preferably newbie games/games that have a serious setup (no u-picks/role madness)

NY1934
N1800

[nancy]

like
I dont see how this isnt obvious sarcasm
ever

Huh. I didn't actually read it as sarcasm either.

[nancy]

I won't lie, my only hesitation in wagoning Eragon is because he is on V/LA.

Um? You just said you didn't think it was alignment indicative for him to not being voting anywhere?

[nancy]

http://www.blankmediagames.com/phpbb/vi ... 17&t=86482

this is a game i played a few weeks back as town, in the second post i believe, are ISO's, if you read my ISO the first true vote(non-RVS) is on page 12/17,

meaning nearly 125 of my posts went by without me placing a vote.(and even that one was just to make sure someone else wasnt lynched)

it is my norm to not place a vote until i have time to explain stuff, have a good solid reason, or i am confident in my read

Uh. Am I being stupid? You vote someone on the first page of your ISO, page 5 in the game, and say that they should claim...?

[nancy]

wait... which 5 are you talking about?


the first posts of the game are in page 17.

My first real vote is on page 12

...

Your first real vote is on... a page before when the game started... What?

http://www.blankmediagames.com/phpbb/se ... &start=400
http://www.blankmediagames.com/phpbb/vi ... 1#p2831961

It's not RVS.

[nancy]

1. did you read their ISO? thats why they were at L-2 within 4 hours of day start?
2. it was still page 5 talking about no spice/spice/spicier

I don't care about their ISO.

I care about your play this game.

I don't really see a precedent for it. Even in the Donner Party game, you voted someone without seeming to have any overwhelming conviction about their alignment. So I'm left just still not really understanding why this a thing in this game.

Shrug. I like your response to pressure, at least.

[nancy]

because i lost confidence by letting this game run.

What did you mean by this?

[nancy]

Okay, thanks.

This game is getting a little bloated, so I'm probably going to start posting a lot less until we get near deadline. Kinda don't want to tip over 300.

[nancy]

I've just spent the past few hours rereading the game and feel pretty reassured by it.

I'm really strongly townreading Trinity and Flicker and I'm strongly townreading Iceman.

Spoiler:

I think Trinity has been super genuine, there have been a few weird spots about her play like the way she backed off FF and moved onto Oka, but I was able to broadly understand why she did them and I really think they're just due to inexperience. Whenever I've been in thread talking with her I've felt really good about her and I think her wall above me is just super town. She's been super fair and reasonable towards everyone without muddying her content or doing a bunch of busywork, she's been pushing someone, she's been clear about her reads and I think she's been doing a bunch to try to solve the game. I think you can see that in the shape of her Oka read and the way she's become conflicted about him and backed off and now just feels kind of lost. Really really really think she's town here.

I think Flicker's response to my mini push was soooo genuine and real, the hurt she expressed there and how it wove into her play, and I think it helped me to understand what level to read her on here. I think the amount of effort that she put into her first post and how nuanced and careful she was with her Oka treatment was really town and I think the way she's approached people and tried to solve things has felt really genuine. I think the way she unvoted Oka makes a lot of sense and isn't really the angle that mafia take there pulling off a scumread. When I read her big wallpost I thought that she was either a newbie reading into things in a really quirky way like newbies sometimes do or just TMI-ing a bunch of people town and I think after hearing her speak to me that it's the first one and I think she's just super likely to be town here.

Iceman is the weakest of the three but I still read him pretty strongly as town. I haven't really had any problems with what he has done this game and I keep going back to his early paranoia of me and how funky that was and I just think that moment was super genuine and town of him. I think there's a level of consistency in his approach to the game that's probably a little complicated and difficult to fake, and I think the way that approach has kind of filtered into his reads is an decent-ish reason to townread him here. I really liked the way he positioned himself on Oka and his treatment of Oka overall.

Going to post the rest of my reads in chunks over the next few hours or so rather than making one giant post.

[nancy]

Quick is sort of sitting around ~rand for me.

Spoiler:

I'm a little worried by how little Quick is doing here and I think if he continues to kind of sit on the sidelines and let the game happen around him while just kind of poking at FF then by mid day 2 or so I would start looking pretty hard at this slot. I haven't seen much in the way of solving or reads from him and I think there's enough scum motivation in just butting heads with FF all game and not doing anything to push the game to a positive place that I don't think I can ever townread him just because I'm not super convinced that he would throw tantrums the way he has been as mafia. I definitely need to reread him carefully at some point before deadline to try to solidify my read.

Eragon is like, slightly below rand. I wouldn't quite call him a scumread, just... kind of nebulously Not A Townread.

Spoiler:

I haven't super hated many individual posts by Eragon, mostly just really hate his recent one where he did an ISO of Trinity. I hated it because it felt like busywork rather than actually trying to read into her alignment, and I didn't feel like it grooved with his earlier mood about her posting. The overall shape of his play hasn't felt great and I'd really like to see more from him in the way of actually solving the game as a whole rather than just posting a lot of things that are reads but that don't actually have any real trajectory or direction to them. Am pretty concerned that he hasn't voted anyone all day because I think generally speaking mafia are a lot more reluctant to actually commit to hard stances and commit to pushes, and Eragon just sort of doing a bunch of aimless threadwork the way he has been makes sense as the way that mafia might approach an active game like this, I think.

That said, I don't think there's anything that overwhelmingly points towards him being mafia doing those things, and I didn't hate the way he responded to my push, I guess? I end up just feel conflicted about this slot, basically. I think, if I were forced to choose either way, what I would come back to is that even though I have concerns with his play as a whole, I actually have liked a lot of his posts and agreed with a lot of what he has said, and there's enough of a possibility that the rest is just playstyle or lack of understanding from me that I would maybe just put him as town and squeeze my eyes shut in the hope that rand chance gets me through okay.[/quote]

[nancy]

rip formatting.

Eragon is like, slightly below rand. I wouldn't quite call him a scumread, just... kind of nebulously Not A Townread.

Spoiler:

I haven't super hated many individual posts by Eragon, mostly just really hate his recent one where he did an ISO of Trinity. I hated it because it felt like busywork rather than actually trying to read into her alignment, and I didn't feel like it grooved with his earlier mood about her posting. The overall shape of his play hasn't felt great and I'd really like to see more from him in the way of actually solving the game as a whole rather than just posting a lot of things that are reads but that don't actually have any real trajectory or direction to them. Am pretty concerned that he hasn't voted anyone all day because I think generally speaking mafia are a lot more reluctant to actually commit to hard stances and commit to pushes, and Eragon just sort of doing a bunch of aimless threadwork the way he has been makes sense as the way that mafia might approach an active game like this, I think.

That said, I don't think there's anything that overwhelmingly points towards him being mafia doing those things, and I didn't hate the way he responded to my push, I guess? I end up just feel conflicted about this slot, basically. I think, if I were forced to choose either way, what I would come back to is that even though I have concerns with his play as a whole, I actually have liked a lot of his posts and agreed with a lot of what he has said, and there's enough of a possibility that the rest is just playstyle or lack of understanding from me that I would maybe just put him as town and squeeze my eyes shut in the hope that rand chance gets me through okay.

[nancy]

I'm weakly scumreading WhyMafia.

Spoiler:

I'm really uncomfortable with the way that WhyMafia been pushing his reads. There was that moment where he had been pushing on Oka then abruptly switched and flipped onto Eragon and it felt really gross to me, the vote movement and read progression didn't feel natural. His Oka read doesn't make sense to me much at all. I kind of dislike the way that he's positioned himself on Eragon, it feels like he's tunneled on the read but his thread presence doesn't match that. He feels super super passive and not interested in doing anything to solve the game around Eragon and that feels bad. I haven't really liked the way he's talked about his other reads, they feel kind of fake and wishy-washy and I struggle to believe that he has any real overarching view of the game. Am not entirely sure how alignment indicative that is for WhyMafia, though.

God, I actually went into this post sort of vibing with a scumread on FF but when I go to put it to words and look back over his ISO I just end up not really feeling it anymore. He's probably been the strangest read for me this game. He's a weird kind of blend of chatting with people and poking at things and making really brittle pushes and like, I think I'm kind of leveling myself into just reading the strange mix of it all as somehow a town thing and I can't tell if I'm getting suckered into the image he's trying to present or not but that's sort of where I'm ending up I think. I don't really think his pseudo-tunneling is town at all on its own and if he's still playing this way as the game goes deeper then I would probably start to feel pretty bad about him I think but like, he feels kinda mood for day 1. I don't even know what I would call this read, something something rand town I guess.

Oh and I had an unaligned read between FF/Oka that I don't really believe in anymore, fyi. I think his treatment of Oka is bizarre but I think it's soft enough for them to be mafia together and I don't really feel like he ever actually went anywhere with his Oka push so like, just don't really see anything actually ruling them out as partners.

[nancy]

@Trinity, when you have the chance, please talk about why you posted 1008, please, in as much detail as possible, talk about your FF read and your Oka read and how both of those reads have evolved for you over the course of the day so far, and please talk about who think is mafia right now and why.

[nancy]

I have a scum read, and I want him to talk to me, and until my scum read of him decreases, or someone makes a compelling case on him, I'm gonna stick to him. Why is my progression on Oka bad? Why would scum!WM behave the way he did? Why would I make a bit of pressure, and instantly retract it? I don't know what to think of that slot, and I've made that abundantly clear. I'm not gonna sugar coat things to look good, I'm gonna vote and interact with people as I see things I like and don't like

I don't know why, dude, and I don't know why you would do them as town either. That's why you're a weak scumread. Your Oka read looks bad because it doesn't look like anything. I dunno what you were even scumreading about him because you never talked about it. Like, if you're mafia then you came in with a fake read, poked at it a bit meaninglessly, then after it had said a few words you pivoted it off it and the whole thing might as well have never happened. I didn't see you do anything with what happened there. Your Oka read is a bunch of question marks, and I don't mean that it's bad that you're not sure about his alignment I mean you literally haven't taken a solid stance on anything he has done and yet he was one of your strongest scumreads. This has nothing to do with sugarcoating.

[nancy]

Nancy can you elaborate on this? I keep re-reading Flicker and I guess I see some of the things you see, but not all of it. Why is her nuance and care regarding Oka towny? Can you describe how it makes sense the way she unvoted Oka to not really come from scum?

I think it's towny on an effort level and more importantly on the level of like, I'm not sure she'd be capable of faking that detailed of a scumread that early. It's also pretty rare for mafia to come in with that heavy of a read that early in the game, because there's just not a lot that they can get out of that kind of a push at that time, and because they generally speaking prefer to wait to see how town is going to react to stuff before taking a hard stance on anything. If you look at the way the read progressed for her, she just kind of weakly backed off it after a while, so essentially all that effort that she went into, of setting up a push on Oka and such, was just wasted. That's not typical mafia behavior. They don't like to just give up on pushes that they've spent a bunch of effort on. They have an agenda and when they make that kind of a push, they want to get mileage out of it.

And it's not like thread temperature was unfavorable to her read. There was a wagon on Oka. She could very easily have kept up her read and she would have fit in just fine. She could have continued to idly scumread him and let town push the wagon for her. But she backed off instead. I think that's a sign that the read was genuine from her. I don't see any mafia motivation in that at all and I see a ton of town motivation for it.

What was towny to me about the unvote was that she said she was worried about Oka getting speedwagoned. That's not really the kind of thing you worry about as mafia. You're most concerned with how people are going to perceive your read progression. When I put myself in her head, think about my Oka scumread dissipating, then yeah, that really clicks there, it makes a ton of sense to unvote if I'm feeling unsure and don't want people to jump the gun while I'm trying to make up my mind about whether or not I scumread the slot anymore. Why did she do any of that as mafia exactly? Doesn't make much sense to me if she's scum. The fact that she reiterated in her next post that she had made the right choice by unvoting reinforces that take for me.

[nancy]

My reads aren't wishy washy. Explicitly I like Iceman and you. I lean town Trinity and Quick. I'm bewildered by Oka. I need to re-read FF and Flicker. I scum read Eragon.

Heh. I appreciate this response a lot. There's a level here that I think is pretty town and I'll talk about it at some point regardless of where read on you ends up.

I think your reads have been pretty wishy-washy. Your Eragon read is the only one that I've seen you really stick to. It's not the worst thing in the world to be wishy-washy. You replaced in not very long ago, you're still getting a feel for the game, sure, I get it. That does need to change at some point, though.

And okay, maybe you've explicitly said that you like Iceman as a lean town, but that's... a very weak stance, and you haven't backed it up with anything, so you could really just flip your read on him and we wouldn't be able to question you about any of it. There'd be nothing to question. That's kinda wishy-washy, no?

[nancy]

Yeah, I've just been putting off talking about it because I don't feel as confident as I would like to. Here, I'll post part of what I wrote in my IC topic.


I've kind of come around to an Oka scumread at this point. I feel like I both love and hate his play this game. Regardless of his alignment, his posting is so recklessly majestic that it's hard not to appreciate it. I just kind of struggle more and more to see him as town here.

His reads early in the game feel so so fake, it feels like he's going through the motions and just kind of abruptly lands at 3-4 townreads and it's like, I just don't believe that he's done the work to get those reads or genuinely has them. I feel like that's kind of the story of his play here this game. He feels more like a papier-maché of a townie than an actual townie.

The only things kind of pulling me back on this read I think are his level of engagement and the way he's positioned himself on Trinity, but like, on the flip side of that, he's not really seeming to go anywhere with anything, and he's been tunneled on Trinity for ~30 pages now and every time she's addressed his concerns he's just found new reasons to scumread her, and that doesn't feel real to me.

I think, ultimately, there are too moments at this point where he has done something that has felt incredibly fake for me to touch him with even a hint of a townread, and short of getting a scumflip and clearing him via spew or antialignments I just can't see myself believing that he's town.

Like, if I put this slot aside today then I would basically have to be donning a mask and playing a part in a farce, just hoping that maybe maybe maybe he could clear himself somewhere down the line, and when I don't have any scumreads that I feel super strongly about I don't think that's a super realistic option.

Vote: OkaPoka

nancy ~ )) - Flicker - Trinity -- Iceman - )) ------ Quick, FF % )) > -- Eragon ---- WhyMafia )) -------- OkaPoka )) ~


Why would you expect her to double down as scum? It seems to me like your whole basis for scumreading her is that she's milquetoast, so I don't really get how you would expect that from her at all.

[nancy]

because the only time she interacts with people on a deeper level is when she gets accused of scum.

but if she backs off now, idk, maybe she is just not an aggressive player in general

Yeah, I don't it's realistic that you didn't think of that earlier.

[nancy]

im excited that you voted me tho

let's 1v1

ill case you up

...

Okay.

[nancy]

Make that, um, quite a bit more than 60/40 confidence, I guess, heh.

[nancy]

Fuck man I was really killing myself there for a while. I had no confidence, I even ran through a ton of your past games to try to figure out if there was some god damn secret to your play here that I could find.

I guess I'll just post the rest of my stuff from my IC topic then.

Spoiler: OkaPoka

When I try to follow his early Trinity read, I look at the way he asked her whether she was being sarcastic in 113, then as soon as she replied he dropped townreads on her, me and stan in 122. Really feels like he was just already going to say he townread her there and wanted that exchange with her as an excuse to make it. There's no sense that he actually did work to get there on her and it makes no sense that he would include me and stan in there if he was actually focused on sorting her specifically there.

Then he says that he's having a hard time scumreading anyone, but like, it's not even 200 posts into the game, two slots hadn't even posted at that point, it's just such a premature thought to have there and doesn't feel believable as something he felt as town. His explanations for his reads in 137 don't feel like real things at all. He's literally copy pasted the same reasoning for townreading me and Trinity and calls stan a "rational town player" which just sounds like some kind of nondescript archetype and not an actual description of someone's play. His reasoning for townreading Trinity makes even less sense because it's completely disconnected from his earlier exchange with her, not to mention she hadn't been interacting that much and like, again, it's less than 200 posts into the game, even if "interacting that much" were something to townread, and it isn't, the timing of it makes no sense.

His read on Flicker also flips around and I just struggle to see that being a real read from him. "FF is town because reasons" is literally not even a read. Then he moves and calls Icemand and SA mafia because he's townreading everyone else and like... no, dude, that's not real, not on page 6. Especially not when it doesn't line up with his suspicion of Flicker.

I'm sort of going to skip around from here because his ISO is way too long to go through.

I so didn't like 172, it feels like a fake reaction to FF's content and he hasn't actually engaged with FF at all.

He says he feels lost in 252 but like, he has 5 townreads? I don't understand how anyone can ever feel lost with 5 townreads before the game has barely even started.

The way he backs up his read on FF later, a few times actually, feels a decent amount like TMI bleeding through because the things he's talking about wrt FF aren't very alignment indicative but he's supporting a townread with them. (267, 277, 779)

His scumread on Trinity in 283 contradicts his earlier townread on her and the read just feels super tacky. It feels like he's trying to paint her as scum rather than actually believing that she's mafia. And uh... he's literally held the scumread for nearly 30 pages now without wavering, and his reasoning for scumread her has constantly changed as his old reasoning has become insufficient which I think is really slimy.

321 was icky on a spiritual level. It felt like he started buddying me when he saw that I was pushing back a little on the scumreads on him and wanted to amuse himself with who I thought was mafia rather than actually do anything to solve the game together.

345 he's kind of blatantly admitting to sheeping which is... bad? But maybe not scummy bad, since he's like openly admitting it? Idk. There's a bunch of this kind of attitude all throughout his ISO and it's super super skeevy. (468, 668/683, 919)

The interaction with Trinity in 390 and 392 feels like open wolfing tbh. I don't understand how town thinks any of the things that Oka is thinking in here. Like, he's just openly admitting to throwing shade on her, talking about how he's pushing her because he doesn't want to be lynched, it's just... ugh, god, how is this ever town, it's so bad I think it might just be town but I don't think I can ever let it live because it's just too nasty.

624 just feels way too close to "yeah I'm a wolf but your reasons are wrong" for comfort.

639 feels like a cardboard cut-out of a townie, like, literally don't believe those are ever things that Oka has been feeling in this game.

652 feels like he's trying to project a version of scum behavior specifically to make himself look town for not conforming to it. He makes a lot of posts like this.

684 this is just like. Either some of the worst villager process I have ever seen, or it's just a wolf, and either way, I think you just have to lynch it, because the times where it's a wolf probably outnumber the times where it's a villager.

703 is just another post where I feel like he's pulling stuff out of his ass. Like, he's presented no reason for there to be 2 mafia in that grouping, for all I know he just pulled 2 other names besides Trinity out of a hat and said "hey guys there's scum in here!".

I still think the "as long as there is a better lynch today" part of 785 is scum mindset through and through and the only thing holding me back from taking it as a scumclaim is that he's um, plainly stating it in thread.

The way he jumps out with a random post discrediting me in 920 feels like a moment of scum frustration. I also, um, never wrote a case, which kinda contributes to feeling that he's not real.

And add to that your response to my scumread here which um, literally never comes from town. Sorry dude.

[nancy]

It's Iceman, me, and WhyMafia on the wagon. It's L-2.

[nancy]

I'm going to unvote so that I don't have to watch thread carefully to make sure people don't get overexcited and hammer him when have ~5 days until deadline.

Unvote

[nancy]

I think that today, we can not lynch FF/Quick/Nancy simply because if one of these people are scum, the others have to be able to counter them

Explain?

[nancy]

Explain why your response to my vote was to say "let's 1v1 I'm gonna case you" when you've been strongly townreading me all game.

[nancy]

because you have demonstrated a strong scumgame and you certainly know what you are doing. and since you voted me that means your judgement isn't perfect.

so im taking precautions against this possibility by spreading seeds of doubt

This doesn't make sense? You should already have been thinking that my judgement isn't perfect, because I've been strongly disagreeing with your Trinity scumread for a while. And like, duh, my judgement isn't perfect, I'm human.

Who is mafia, Oka? Talk about your reads.

[nancy]

Iceman, and Eragon

Talk about these two, and talk about your townreads, please.

[nancy]

I'm going to unvote so that I don't have to watch thread carefully to make sure people don't get overexcited and hammer him when have ~5 days until deadline.

Unvote

No... this is not normal. What's up with thay.

Hm?

[nancy]

Do you just not have reads this game, Quick?

[nancy]

So you're just going to acquiesce to an Oka lynch?

[nancy]

@Iceman your stated philosophical inclination is that mafia games should go slow, so why do you find it suspicious that I might want to slow down the gamestate rather than risk someone ending the day early at a point where we still have a third of the day phase left? Why would you be happy with a lolhammer? Even if Oka is scum, that's bad play. Half the game hasn't taken a stance on his lynch right now.

@Oka if I didn't lynch you, I would lynch Quick, because he seems very intent on doing exactly nothing.

I'll say some words about wagons and such later. People need to check in.

[nancy]

Trinity, please answer my questions for you?

[nancy]

Iceman, your vote doesn't need to be on someone for you to be pushing them.

[nancy]

You left out the last part: please talk about who you think is mafia right now and why.

[nancy]

Trinity is creeping up on me as being Scummy now. It seems whenever Trinity is asked something, they completely disappear. Very suspect.

@nancy, what do you mean when you say I am not doing anything? I feel like I have been pushing my SRs just fine, offering my reasoning on why I TR the people I do. What do you want from me?

Point to a question that Trinity hasn't answered and explain why activity is alignment indicative.

I don't think you have been doing those things. Your push on FF, moreover, is basically just you saying that FF is full of shit and calling him scummy.

[nancy]

You left out the last part: please talk about who you think is mafia right now and why.

That’s hard, I really don’t know right now, I’m confused.

It's okay if you're not sure. Just give it your best shot.

Here is everyone alive:
IcemanCh
Eragon
WhyMafia
Flicker
TrinityNZ
Quick
OkaPoka
Formerfish
nancy

Start with which people you think are town, then put them aside, and look at who is left.

You don't have to have a super confident scumread or anything like that. But from your perspective, if you're town, you absolutely need to lynch someone today, and you want that person to be mafia. So you have to figure this out. Who do you want to lynch?

[nancy]

I think your reads have been pretty wishy-washy. Your Eragon read is the only one that I've seen you really stick to. It's not the worst thing in the world to be wishy-washy. You replaced in not very long ago, you're still getting a feel for the game, sure, I get it. That does need to change at some point, though.

Meh. I can see how you think that. Re-reading what I said does give that impression, and my insistence on Eragon reflects my confidence in that read. The only other players who I'm think confident about are you and Ice as town. And I didn't really think I needed to elaborate on them, but will gladly do so

@WhyMafia why didn't you follow up on this?

[nancy]

Well I went over my unaligned reads for Oka and I have Trinity and Iceman as pretty strongly unaligned with him, and Trinity also clear from spew (kinda think he may have TMI'd her townflip in 1056). FF/Oka isn't the likeliest team but I don't think I would rule them out entirely. He's clearly insane enough as a player that I don't really trust myself to read him for this kind of thing as much as I might for someone else.

I don't really have any other antialignments on him that mean anything.

There are some nebulous things that whisper the name Eragon when I think about who his most likely partner is but that's also the part of me that wants to invoke rule of 3 on his Trinity/Iceman/Eragon thing so lol.

[nancy]

actually you can lynch me today

i think whymafia can stand up to yall

Also, this is certainly a post.

Lmao.

[nancy]

Trinity, you really really really really need to respond to 1136 and talk about who you want to and don't want to lynch today.

[nancy]

@Everyone, but especially experienced MS players

What do you think about the above? Both in general, and in relation to Oka in this game?

Yeah, I was thinking about this earlier, and was like, I really don't want to push in too many more places today because I don't want to risk outing a PR, but um, that's not a real reason not to just lynch someone because they claimed VT. You lynch who you think has the highest chance of flipping mafia. Generally speaking you don't want to sacrifice dayplay for night play.

There's a limit to this, like if you run 3 people up near the end of a dayphase and don't like how the lynch felt on any of them, and they all claimed, you probably want to be super super super certain that someone out those 3 is mafia, or super super certain that all 3 of them are town, before you push another person to claim. At that point it's probably optimal to just lynch inside the slots that have claimed.

@nancy

I geniunely don't know what you want from me at this point, but in the interest of not spending a lot of time on anything, I won't go over the rest of your big, spoilered post point by point.

Um? I don't understand what you mean by don't know what I want from you. I haven't asked for you anything?

I had a sort of half-baked theory about scum partners, so I partly voted to test out the reactions to that, but I didn't get the reactions I was expecting, and WhyMafia did a couple things that close to 100% disprove my theory (I won't say what it was now, maybe on another game day or in the post-game), so there's that.

You should talk about this as soon as you've gotten from it what you wanted to. Don't wait until post-game.

What is the rule of 3?

You can read my most recent newbie scum game here: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=76478&user_select[]=23817

I have already looked at all of your games. You would know this if you had been reading my posts. >:[

Rule of 3 is the idea that when a scum player groups 3 people together they are disproportionately likely to include a partner in that grouping.

[nancy]

@Trinity I dunno what to say honestly, it's not really good enough to just list names in an order, you have to be able to talk about why those names are ordered the way they are. Like, you were able to talk about FF and Oka at least to some degree, that fact that you're completely unable to articulate any form of a scumread on anyone else at this point is super super worrying. You've also got FF in your lynch pool which is ???, you have stated a townread on FF, please explain how that makes sense.

I was planning on voting Oka this morning when I woke up but after Trinity's recent posting I'm kinda torn. In the world where Trinity is mafia then her flip would clear Oka and that's not a small thing. In the world where she's town then I want to lynch Oka pretty much always but my townread on her isn't as strong as it was and if I think there's a realistic chance of Trinity being mafia then I'm kind of inclined to give that read more time to develop and just put Trinity/Oka aside until tomorrow.

I think I want to lynch Quick the most at this point. There's just so much scum motivation in the way that he's been treating the Oka wagon and I've been mostly turning a blind eye to it but I don't think I can anymore. He's also just not doing anything this game and generally speaking that's never a bad type of slot to lynch on day 1.

@Everyone please share with the class who you would be willing to lynch today.

I think my lynch preference for today is Quick->Eragon->FF.

[nancy]

How would you characterize my scum vs town game? Sorry if you've said this before, maybe I missed it or forgot it.

The biggest difference was probably your activity levels. The biggest difference between the town games that I read and this game is that your reads actually made sense and your process wasn't a complete nightmare in those games the way it is here.

Also is there evidence to this rule of 3 thing? If a scum player groups 3 town players would that mean there is a chance of their partner being in there too?

Who knows. And... what? If a scum player groups 3 town players... they're... town... and town can't be a mafia partner...

[nancy]

I've pushed multiple people and still am. I am poking things, I guess you can't see it for some reason.

I've read your ISO multiple times.

[nancy]

About the wagon stuff people were mentioning earlier...

If a wagon on one player continually dies, it can be a sign that they're mafia because their partners may be pushing against the lynch, and because mafia are more likely to support town lynches, making it easier for them to go through. This is why you should look for mafia on the wagon of a mafia lynch if the lynch seems to go through too easily.

If the thread dies when there is a consensus lynch, it can often mean that the lynch is a miss because if it weren't a miss then mafia would be actively trying to save their partner. This isn't always the case, because mafia may be bussing, mafia may simply not know what to do, mafia may be inactive, or other more contextual things. It's also less of a thing when there are only 2 mafia.

People were talking about no one defending Oka, but that's not really how you should look at it. Mafia defend town lynches too. And they don't always defend their partners. If no one is defending OkaPoka, then you have to look at who is pushing on him, who is simply abstaining, and why. Are any of the people pushing him bussing? Are any of the people abstaining acting like they know he's a mislynch? Are any of the people off wagon doing anything to try to dismantle the wagon?

That's kind of what I've been looking at and I think the way FF jumped on deserves a look in the world where Oka is town because it was a kind of slimy thing where he built up to it by arguing with Oka then, when he had the fuel, he pounced. There wasn't a natural progression there from his previous read on Oka, I don't think. I think the way that Quick has been idly sitting in thread and doing things like throwing shade on Trinity makes sense in a world where Oka/Trinity is v/v and he wants to capitalize on Oka's townflip by pushing a Trinity lynch. I think Iceman's treatment of the wagon is just super town all around, and I think WhyMafia's treatment of the wagon has been pretty good too.

[nancy]

UNVOTE: WhyMafia

I had a sort of half-baked theory about scum partners, so I partly voted to test out the reactions to that, but I didn't get the reactions I was expecting, and WhyMafia did a couple things that close to 100% disprove my theory (I won't say what it was now, maybe on another game day or in the post-game), so there's that. In terms of independently scum reading WM, it's a weak read based partly on stan1ey's case against me - which felt like a reach he was trying too hard to pad out into something more - and

partly based on the way WM came in and reversed course on the read of me/my post without mentioning the way other people reacted to it.

Please talk about the bolded? I don't understand that in the slightest.

[nancy]

Vote: Quick

You gotta start spewing reads and actually putting time into this game if you're town.


pedit because he's been V/LA, as has Flicker.

[nancy]

Oops I forgot to post my reads.

nancy ~ )) - Iceman, Flicker --- )) -- Trinity ) -- WhyMafia -- % )) > -- Eragon ) ---- FF, Quick )) ---------- OkaPoka )) ~

I don't typically do this, but I think voting up quick is going down the wrong path and we don't really have time to go down the wrong path when we are approaching the deadline.

I am pretty sure Quick has put time into this game and he has given us some form of reads, it's distributed over a wide number of posts.
More specifically he is actively scumreading Formerfish and has interacted with him, but Formerfish hasn't shown up for about two days so Quick can't do much there. Quick is also expressing doubt and seems to be poking around with Trinity on the side, so there is that.

We can continue to sort Quick, but I don't think that we should lynch him today.

This is extremely out of character for you. It's particularly strange considering Quick's stance on you is that we should just sort you with night actions.

Quick isn't expressing doubt on Trinity, he's shading her. And he's posturing, too, because on this page he goes back to say that she's probably just a newbie, which just spews her town if he is mafia. And his "scumread" on FF consists of "lol you're scum", "you're scummy", "you're wrong", "you're bad", "you're a liar" and various repetitions of the same.

[nancy]

Spoiler: @Quick

FF, you said ISOs are NAI. Is catching up AI?

It depends. Like the game I linked I SR Ceejay based on how he replaced into the game. I wouldnt say it would be a huge dent, but someone legit not catching up in a game this small would ping me. Making an attempt, or intimating that you are, is NAI to me because its optimal play from either side. And you don't even necessarily have to do it, you just would have to worry about slipping up later after saying you were caught up. If scum have day chat then they would have all the relevant info for you there.

You know, after thinking about it, this seems like a completely different kind of read that you are describing besides simply getting caught up. You are describing how Ceejay was inconsistent in a Scummy way, and I'd wager that this kind of thing actually has little to do with whether he was caught up or not. It's a Scummy contradiction that could happen whether he was getting caught up or not.. It's not specific to getting caught up necessarily.

This quote contains no reasoning about why FF is mafia. You asked him a theory question, and he answered.

Vote: Quick

I don't believe that your read on Iceman is real. You're saying that you disagree with him or he is bad therefore he is mafia, which is nonsense. Your entire case on him feels like shade and I don't like it one bit. Please catch up and provide thoughts on the game.

Are you getting a scum caught for reasons they dont believe they should have been caught kinda vibe coming off of Quick right now?

Uh-huh. It looks like you like that argument.

This is shade/doubtcasting, by you, which is scummy. I happen to think that the post you quoted is scummy, but again, no reasoning from you why FF is mafia in this quote.

it feels like it was phrased in a way that allows iceman to build upon it later to attack nancy w/o really needing to build a legitimate in game case on her

like instead of saying something about nancy feels off, feels like she is controlling town he goes with the proposition that cannot really be argued against

I don't think you're insane for thinking this.

But like, lmao, it doesn't feel very intuitive for mafia to come in the way he did and talk in detail about his idea that we should lynch the IC in lylo. He has to know that will look bad and if he's mafia he has to already be feeling like he wants me very dead with the way my thread presence is, so it's like, not a thing that he's ever actually going to cash in on and he would know that. I also kind of feel like it would take a bit more of an experienced player to try to use that as a way to break down trust, and kinda think he'd be intimidated by me given how he's a newb and newbscum generally suck up to the IC.

This kinda bugs me. IDK why people keep saying Ice is a newb when he's not.

How is not a newbie? He has finished 3 newbie games, is in his 4th and is playing in his first non-newbie game concurrently.

If he isn't a newbie then he is like a half step above being one. Not sure why you feel the need to try and bolster your SRs position there, maybe you think it gives your case on him more weight. Your case is bad by the way. It basically comes down to the fact that you dont personally think what you did was scummy. You fail to take into account that the way you think is not the way everyone thinks. Some people think in ways completely different from you. If I also found the way you came in scummy, as well as a few others in this game it appears, dont you think that maybe, just fucking maybe, that they have experience where scum does just what you did. And I know you responded that what Ceejay did, in the game I used as an example, is different from what you did/are doing, but that misses the point.

The point is that people can get scum read for the fucking flimsiest of reasons. When scum get caught by reasons they think they shouldnt be caught for they usually act the way you are right now.

Which is how?

I didn't see that Ice had only played 3-4 games, what I saw is that he was playing in games with 20 PRs. Those kinds of games are generally reserved for people who completely know what they are doing or completely have no idea what they are doing and I assumed the former.

It's nice that you know people think in different ways, but that's not why I am SRing Ice.

They (in general, which is how you are phrasing this) could have had the experience where a Scum person didn't catch up, but that wasn't my impression of Ice's reason for voting me. It seemed theory based. As far as nanacy's vote is concerned, I've already addressed that.

I do have a question though. Are you going to actually vote me or are you just gunna shade me?

No reasoning from you. This isn't a read. The way you're taunting him is gross.

Here is your OMGUS, bud.

VOTE: FF

tbh I feel like you are just trying to upset me more and get me to make a mistake. Plus that excuse about trying to catch up when you were pretty much already there was pretty bad.

Okay. Explain how the second thing is scummy?

Have you given a read on Oka?

i think they are slightly scummy to me, but that is one of my weaker reads

Why?

Did you know there is an alternate, superior way if figuring this out, without me possibly influencing you by cherry picking?
Just ISO Oka with what I said in mind. If you come to the same conclusion, that solves this problem.

I completely fail to see what you are trying to point out here.

Seriously man? Like 10 posts before WM asked you to show work on your read and you told him to iso the guy and think for himself. Then you ask someone else to show the reasons they have come up with a read.

Why should they if you refuse to show your work?

Its hypocritical.

It's not hypocritical because I am not necessarily asking for examples. Try again.

Where did he say that to WM? I can't find it. I also side with FF on this one and think you were misunderstanding.

It's not hypocritical because I am not necessarily asking for examples. Try again.

How do you expect him to explain his scum read on Oka? Hes going to have to show the posts that made him feel icky inside and then explain them to you to see if you feel icky as well. If we all just automatically felt the same way about posts then this game would be a lot easier than it is. Asking why someone is scum inherently is asking the other person to give examples.

I am going off the assumption that you want to make sure I am not full of shit in what I am saying. I don't need to provide examples for that if you can figure it out yourself if what I am saying has merit or not.

Like listen man. I'm not going to tell you how to play, you do you. Heres the thing though, when I see anti-town play, I say something. WM asked you a legit question in response to something you said. Your response to his question was to go reread himself with your vague statement in mind and to see what post pinged him and then you would let him know if those were the right ones?

And you claim that that is the simple way of doing it. Simple to me would be you quoting a few posts where Oka exemplified the behaviors you spoke to him exhibiting as evidence to the group to further your own read.

How is that Anti-Town? Just because YOU don't play that way doesn't mean it's Anti-Town. As far as "how is he supposed to explain?" You don't really need to give examples to do that - in fact, he could pretty much just do exactly what I did, which is give a rundown of how things have gone in general. Maybe it's that I am more big picture than you are. Having an overall understanding is better than specifics anyways.

So, you were being anti-town, FF called you on that, and this makes him mafia because _______.

@formerfish what are your reads on trinity/iceman/eragon?

Scum lean, town lean, null town.

Something in her post just seem desperate to me. I know nancy has a strong town read here, but its just not there for me. The push on me is a bad one since she is using meta for the most part and the meta isnt accurate.

I like the way Iceman plays, it reminds me a lot of myself as a younger town player. He says whats on his mind and lays in the bed he makes when he has to answer for something. I also see a progression in him from the games weve played. This is where I see his town game now from the last 2, I dont see him as scum here.

Eragon, a lot of what he posts seems perfunctory. Other things show good signs. Wouldnt lynch here today.

Holy Fuck, you're so full of shit!

When asked about how you are reading someone you go straight to overall play, not examples. This is a pretty blatant contradiction of play, bud.

This is a legalistic interpretation of FF's earlier statements and basically equivalent a strawman argument. Not scummy, and even if he were contradicting himself, you haven't shown why that's scummy.

Two examples of each that I found in like 2 min.

Holy shit this is like pulling teeth with you. Which ones are examples of ones you liked and which are the ones you didnt. Why to both?

It's like you are not even paying attention at this point. WhyMafia asked why I was reading Oka the way I was. I said I felt some of their questions seemed really Town motivated but that I thought some of their pushes were suspect. Pretty sure you can figure out the rest. Pretty sure you are just being this difficult because Oka is who you want to lynch, which is incredibly Scummy if correct.

The constant defensiveness and your tone add to the whole ensemble. I might be misreading your posts though and you dont have a tone, dont know you well enough to figure between the two right now.

Since when is defensiveness a Scum tell? It's not, you're just trying to push this narrative because I disagree with you.

I'm assuming the last sentence is the only part of this that you mean to be relevant? I don't think it's insane that FF would think to read into your defensiveness. I think you're trying to portray FF as an insane person and I think it's stupid.

Your willingness to attempt to jump on everything I say like a gotcha moment is probably one of the scummiest things Ive seen recently.

VOTE: Quick

Brah, that's not Scummy. I'm explaining my position on why you are Scum whom I am voting right now.

So, FF thinks something is scummy that you don't think is scummy and this makes him mafia because _______.

Your willingness to attempt to jump on everything I say like a gotcha moment is probably one of the scummiest things Ive seen recently.

VOTE: Quick

Brah, that's not Scummy. I'm explaining my position on why you are Scum whom I am voting right now.

Im pretty sure there is nothing I can do with you right now that you wouldnt scum read. But if you want to act like what you are saying is right then go for it. I see how you twice failed to acknowledge that the thing you are "getting me" for in that post isnt even a thing. Oka asking me for reads and me not giving specific posts to back up each one is not the same an WM asking you to explain a specific read you had. But keep pushing your narrative, I get it. Rolling scum in a game you replace into sucks, but this is nothing personal, if it werent you another body would be in that scumseat.

LOL, you are such Scum.

How is that not a contradiction?

There are reasons why this post from FF is scummy and none of them have to do with the contradiction that you claim he made. There's no reasoning in this quote.

Here's another contradiction in FF's play: They say I am confbiasing him as Scum.. Even if I am (I'm not) He's doing the same fucking thing to me!

This makes him mafia because _____.

Because Oka hasnt asked for it yet. Its not that you didnt do it, its that you wouldnt do it when someone asked. If Oka needs more info from me on hose reads to satisfy his curiosity then he can ask. If I refuse then itd be like you and scummy. However that situation hasnt taken place yet so...

Also legit question. When you find out im town, where do you go from there?

Ninja- naw bro, using confbias to add to my scum read of you is not the same.

You are the one who was pushing me for not giving examples. So what makes you think who asked you what would be satisfied without examples? On the one hand, you are arguing that I am Scummy for not providing examples, which shows that you agree examples are necessary, otherwise there is no reason to bring it up in the first place. On the other hand, you are not providing examples yourself and basically representing that an overview of play is how you personally operate. So then why am I Scummy for operating in the same way that you are? You are looking for EXCUSES to SR me.

I think it's pretty valid for FF to scumread you for not talking about your reads. You're trying to make it about the specific way in which you or he talks about reads, which is irrelevant. You bogged the discussion down in inanities then scumread him for being bogged down in inanities. It's a neat rhetorical trick, but it's stupid.

VOTE: iceman

ill leave it here because i have no idea what you would want to policy lynch an IC and simultaneously compliment them

I don't like this vote from you Oka. Iceman is a newbie and he is going to have some newbie ideas. I remember the days of my first few games and I thought that I was going to change the world. I was going to make people play the game the way I thought it should be best played. I was going to lynch people to make them active and to make them change their evil ways by leading lynches on them no matter what. The idea that an IC shouldnt last very long in the game isn't without merit. Think about it. If IC is town they are the best player for town because of experience, scum will want to kill them to try and deny town their best player. If IC is scum they are never going to be killed if everyone just town reads the IC because they are teaching the game.

Most of the time getting to lynch an IC before endgame doesn't happen because scum kills them early, but when you think about it an IC playing late into the game is something to be suspect about. I don't think that there are many scum teams out there playing the long con with the IC and getting away with it, ya know?

Ugh. I hate this post. The idea put forth in this post is so very very bad. You don't lynch people because of their title, you lynch them because they are Scum, period.

FF is bad, which makes him mafia because _______.

FF's point is actually that it's not unreasonable for Iceman to have the idea that he had, and that he dislikes Oka's vote as a result. You're misconstruing his argument. Sure, make the argument that this is scummy of FF because something something TMI reads, but don't pretend that he's saying it's okay to PL the IC and scumread for that, that's just wrong.

it's not the pagecount and number of posts that makes it slow its the lack of scumhunting and wagon forming which im at fault for but nonetheless its giving a slow impression

Lack of scum hunting? Its day 1 and we are on page, what, 8? We are still very much in the feeling each other out stage for anyone to have really strong feelings about wanting to hang anyone. Shit we can have hunches and we can have inklings, but if you are looking for a full blown case this early then you are scum and need to die.

Also, at you talking about the lack of wagons forming when you commented on not wanting to join the one on flicker and would rather do your own thing over there.

So many things wrong with this post...

You should be Scum hunting regardless of what Day it is, for one.

Wanting wagons to form and not wanting to be on ANY wagon isn't a contradiction, seriously.

FF had been scumhunting. He was only saying that Oka didn't need to try to rev the game up, and that he thought it would be unrealistic for anyone to have a case-worthy scumread that early in the game. Why is this post scummy, Quick? You haven't put forth any reasoning, you're just saying that FF is wrong/bad/scummy.

Sure, I think a lot of the stuff you quoted from FF is pretty scummy, and guess what? I'm scumreading FF. But I think your reasons for thinking he's scum are pretty drab at best, horrific at worst, mostly nonexistent as far as what you have put into this thread, and I think you can do better.

Also, I see you are letting FF off the hook for doing meta (based on very few games) but telling everyone else not to do that. Is there a reason you feel FF is exempt from this?

I'm not. Why do you think that I am?

[nancy]

Vote: Trinity

That is actually insane. I don't see how you could drop that Oka townread like that if that is a real read that you had and there is so much scum motivation for you to vote Oka right now.

@Quick 709

[nancy]

We're not lynching either of you, we're lynching Trinity.

[nancy]

Can you both please stop. I don't care what either of your alignments are, just stop. If you can't interact civilly with each other, stop interacting.

[nancy]

Everyone in the game needs to take a stance on the Trinity lynch. I personally don't think there's almost ever a world where she's town here after her readflip on Oka. I think her flip clears Oka and probably Quick. I think her FF read is weird but I have 100 eyes emoji at 569 and don't think I would clear him as a partner just because she was scumreading him and buddying people who were voting for him.

pedit FF, why are you completely ignoring Trinity's post?

pedit Quick cut it out. I am reporting your posts.

[nancy]

OkaPoka (3) - IcemanCh, WhyMafia, TrinityNZ
TrinityNZ (3) - OkaPoka, Flicker, nancy
Formerfish (1) - Quick
Quick (1) - Formerfish

Not Voting (1) - Eragon

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.


Hm.

FF pulling off the Oka wagon when Trinity put it to L-1 is definitely a Thing.

I'm not sure if it's clearing for FF or not. I feel like it probably should be? But I'm somehow not convinced.

[nancy]

The Oka wagon is dying off and I don’t know why
Everyone who’s off it please explain why you’re no longer voting him and beginning a new wagon so close to deadline
At this rate we’re gonna do something we regret

Read the thread before Quick/FF's spat, WM.

[nancy]

Everyone in the game needs to take a stance on the Trinity lynch. I personally don't think there's almost ever a world where she's town here after her readflip on Oka. I think her flip clears Oka and probably Quick. I think her FF read is weird but I have 100 eyes emoji at 569 and don't think I would clear him as a partner just because she was scumreading him and buddying people who were voting for him.

pedit FF, why are you completely ignoring Trinity's post?

pedit Quick cut it out. I am reporting your posts.

What was scummy about her flip on Oka? If she’s a newb it makes sense for her to make the WIFOM argument? Unless you’re referring to something else

How does it make sense, please?

[nancy]

What the fuck are you reporting my post for? Anger? Pretty sure that's not breaking any rules.

You are making the word "fuck" size 40 or whatever and are being abusive. It's not okay to treat people like this.

[nancy]

Kinda think FF/Quick are both just town here.

[nancy]

So Trinity. Is the main reason you switched on Oka is because of his relentless push on you? That he wouldn't risk it as town? Because by that logic, as scum, couldn't he do that, and undertake that defense? That's just WIFOM (Hope I used that correctly ;P ). Knowing that you'd town read him bc no scum would be that brazen sounds like a wonderful idea for scum to just do it anyway

It didn’t seem like something scum would do. Like the thought process behind it is something I can see bc I thought like that sometimes myself when I was a newbie. I could be wrong, but I’m just confused how this post made you do a 180 after defending her so much

Uh. Explain the thought process you had as a newbie more please? Like, the strength of her read on Oka doesn't match the weakness of the WIFOM argument. WIFOM is just like, "oh but it /could/ have been that". It's wishy-washiness boiled down to it's essence. So, what, she really just decided that her townread on Oka was wrong because, uh, it /could/ be wrong? I don't get how that's ever a thing even for a newbie?

[nancy]

Look, bro... I am trying to prevent a fucking meltdown here.
What you are suggesting is exactly what I am trying to PREVENT...
I don't think a fucking 1v1 with you at this point is at all productive.
IDK why you are insisting on pissing me off, but I am so done engaging with you.

Do you think I am scum?
Cause if you do and you are town then why not 1v1 me? We obviously are not going to be able to coexist in this game.
Im not trying to piss you off, that is just where you seem to reside when it comes to me apparently.

nancy, are you seeing this rn?

And you are reporting MY posts for being abusive? Wut?

You are allowed to scumread someone. You do not have to be abusive to them just because you think they are mafia.

[nancy]

Elaborate

I don't really think it makes sense for mafia to force a 1v1 like this, basically.

I partially just don't want to have to deal with either of them anymore, lol.

[nancy]

What the fuck are you reporting my post for? Anger? Pretty sure that's not breaking any rules.

You are making the word "fuck" size 40 or whatever and are being abusive. It's not okay to treat people like this.

How am I being abusive!!!!

Really, how??? I don't understand how on earth you can think this!!! It's insane! I haven't used a single ad hominem, I haven't told anyone to fuck off even. All I have done is use the word fuck. That's NOT breaking any rules as far as I can see. Really? You want me to get banned for saying fuck? Why?

Would you shout at someone, asking how the fuck they believe or think the things that they do? I really don't think so.

If you don't understand that it's not okay to treat people this way, I don't know what to tell you.

[nancy]

Hm. Maybe you're right WhyMafia?

I've basically ruled out everyone except Flicker and Eragon as Trinity's partners and Eragon just put her to L-1 so now I'm kind of ruling him out too and I townread Flicker...

I could be misclearing a team but I don't think I am?

Talk to me about why you think 1201 makes sense to you?

[nancy]

He's intentionally trying to piss me off!?!?! Do you not see that?

Not really? Even if he is, you don't have to respond the way you are.

[nancy]

Quick I am an insanely emotion person and I freak out and overreact to stuff more than anyone I know. There are points where I would have done that this game if I weren't the IC and I would probably be that way now if I weren't the IC. I get it. I really do. But you are in control of what you do. It's important to remember that. You have the control.


TrinityNZ (4) - OkaPoka, Flicker, nancy, Eragon
OkaPoka (3) - IcemanCh, WhyMafia, TrinityNZ
Formerfish (1) - Quick
Quick (1) - Formerfish

Not Voting (0) -

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.

[nancy]

Unvote

Kinda don't want to risk a hammer before WhyMafia has a chance to get back to me.

[nancy]

Trinity, you don't have to claim anything right now.

[nancy]

Oka antialignments.

I've ruled out Trinity, WhyMafia, FF, Iceman, and Quick as Oka partners, in that order of strength.

The way he's been egging on the 1v1 between FF/Quick is just something you only really see when it's a TvT, and I think the way that Oka has interacted with Quick and FF doesn't happen if they're partners. He definitely doesn't egg on Quick when FF is his scumbud and I don't think the way he townread Quick happens too often if they're partners. I don't think he can't ever be scum with Quick but I think it's unlikely. I have him unaligned with Iceman for the way he's incessantly picked apart Iceman's PL thing and the way Iceman has been pushing him.

He's not with Trinity for obvious reasons, and I don't think WhyMafia treats his wagon or Trinity this way if they're partners basically ever.

I have him as weakly unaligned with Flicker because of the way Flicker has treated him. Most likely partner is Eragon.

[nancy]

Like - I don’t disagree that trinity is scummy. But nancy, for someone who has defended trinity throughout the game, I simply cannot fathom how you reversed her read on that. What is her scum motivaton? Why would she jump off the wagon, only to re-join it later? Her thinking it’s too scummy to be scum just seems to resonate with me. It doesn’t make sense, but like it’s not inherently scummy, is it? There’s also the matter of partners as you mentioned : P

There's a huge amount of scum motivation to vote the biggest wagon at a point where she is starting to be run up.

[nancy]

Because if she's mafia then she sees the Oka wagon dying, sees her own wagon gaining steam, and thinks that she needs to vote for self-preservation, her previous reads be damned.

I guess I can squint and see what you mean WhyMafia? Like, my gut reaction to that readflip is just "holy shit she is mafia" but if I take a step back I can maybe see just having no clue about anything and confusing herself back into scumreading Oka? It does line up with her play / mindset so far, I guess?

Eh.

Yeah.

I think also I'll just hate myself if I lynch a townread that I've had all day just because she didn't something that logically makes almost no sense to me. And yeah I don't really have any realistic partners for her at this point.

Vote: OkaPoka

[nancy]

@Everyone Oka is at L-1.

Don't put the last vote / hammer down without at least 24 hours warning, please.

[nancy]

OkaPoka (4) - IcemanCh, WhyMafia, TrinityNZ, nancy
TrinityNZ (3) - OkaPoka, Flicker, Eragon
Formerfish (1) - Quick
Quick (1) - Formerfish

Not Voting (0) -

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.


Yeah. Looking at wagons, I feel good about this lynch.

[nancy]

hey nancy, how much does mislynching make you doubt yourself for the rest of the game?

If you mislynch, you have to go over your reads and your worlds and look at where you went wrong, look at the way the lynch formed and how people interacted with it and see if you can find anything in there that looks like a lead you want to follow. I've gone over what I look for in wagons some already.

It wouldn't make me doubt myself for the rest of the game at all, it would just make me reassess stuff and try to figure out where I went wrong and fix my reads. It's kind of inevitable that you're going to have wrong scumreads in this game, so you just have to bounce back as best you can and get back to work on solving the game. Reassessing is absolutely something that you need to learn how to do to be a good town player and it's probably one of the most difficult (and to me, one of the most interesting) parts of the game.

[nancy]

nancy, it kinda seems like you have a stronger scum read on trinity, i could be wrong though. Am I?

My read on her is a big question mark at the moment. I think she's always town if Oka is mafia but if he's town then I just go back to the way she moved onto the wagon and there's a lot of scum motivation there I think. I think WhyMafia is probably right that it's not impossible for her to have had that readflip as town (I don't think the TWTBAW thing is anything), so no I don't scumread her more than Oka at all and the wagons also line up more with scum Oka worlds since I'm townreading everyone on the Oka wagon (except ?Trinity?) and I scumread both Oka/Eragon, who are pushing Trinity.

[nancy]

I have him unaligned with Iceman for the way he's incessantly picked apart Iceman's PL thing and the way Iceman has been pushing him.

What makes you think that isn't distancing? I don't do Pre-Flip, cuz it's really really bad and stuff, but if you ARE going to go that route (clearly I can't tell you how to play), then what exactly is stopping that from being SvS?

In any case, this is the EXACT reason why I generally HATE talking about SvS without a flip - because it's all pretty much WIFOM anyways and it doesn't mean shit until we actually get a Scum flip, so why bother talking about it now?

?

Nothing that I posted is preflip.

I don't think the manner in which he pushed Oka when I unvoted to give the game space is something he does if they're partners. When mafia bus each other they tend to do it in a way that doesn't really get their partner lynched so much as make them look good in case their partner does get lynched. Like, Iceman is explicitly trying to get Oka lynched and frustrated that people aren't lynching him and it's pretty unlikely for that to be his play as Oka's partner. Added to that, I don't think Oka would try to drag his partner through the mud all game by picking apart his PL post. It brings a lot of negative attention to Iceman and it trashes his credibility and that's just not the way partners usually do things. Put those two things together and I feel pretty comfortable calling them unaligned. Would I bet the game on it? Probably not. But I townread Iceman on top of this and I just don't think it's a likely world by any stretch.

[nancy]

Your reads have changed... a lot... you need to work on that a bit. Pick a point of reference to work with and probably take notes.

Reads changing is a bad thing because ______.

[nancy]

If I cant get Quick today, I can get his partner.

VOTE: Trinity

Why is Trinity mafia, FF?

[nancy]

Your reads have changed... a lot... you need to work on that a bit. Pick a point of reference to work with and probably take notes.

Reads changing is a bad thing because ______.

It makes you NOT dependable.

Lol?

[nancy]

@nancy, what do you make of trinity refusing to interact with me?

Shrug? Am not really convinced that she is refusing to interact with you.

Anyway, I'm gonna bounce. Trinity needs to claim now that Quick has given intent to hammer.

[nancy]

The defensiveness with Oka when he was asking her questions, and the fact that she eventually says she isnt going to answer his questions anymore.

Mmm. I don't think it's entirely unreasonable that she would be fed up with him here as town.

Don't disagree with any of your other reasoning.

[nancy]

What, trinity literally said she is refusing to answer any questions from me...

Yeah I forgot she had said that.

pedit what did she accuse of you that she didn't give proper evidence before?

[nancy]

the y reason in question

Oh, right. Christ I forgot about that, lmao.

There's also the angle of, well if you're town you're going to want to talk about your scumreads a bunch, typically speaking, because you want your opinions heard and such, so not doing that especially when there's a lot of pressure on you feels like more of a scum thing.

[nancy]

Eragon /could/ be bussing there, I guess? Like, I kind of just think Eragon is mafia regardless of anything. But uhm, bussing there when you have tied wagons between your partner and a townie is increeeeeeeeeeedibly -EV play and if he her partner is then he's completely suicidal. I guess I wouldn't rule them out completely? Just seems really unlikely.

Kinda contemplating swinging the lynch to Eragon tbh but yeah nah, think we kinda need to resolve between Oka/Trinity today.

[nancy]

@Trinity you need to claim, which means telling us what the name of your role is in your role PM.

@Quick what are your reads right now? What happened the townread you stated on Trinity in 419/740/753? You also implied you thought she was town in 1178, what changed exactly? Why are you even willing to hammer? "Feel more and more like that is Scum"? What does that even mean?

[nancy]

@Oka why are you townreading Quick as strongly as you are? Why are you scumreading Trinity for not answering your question but not scumreading Quick for being extremely cagey all game and telling me he didn't want to talk to me when I went through his FF read in detail and told him it was nonsense?

@FF why are you okay with being on the Trinity wagon when the person who you strongly scumread has expressed intent to hammer and the counterwagon is a person who you recently voted and who strongly townreads your strong scumread?

@Flicker why are you voting Trinity?


@Quick please do not hammer, I have IC things that I need to post before lynch and I don't have time right now. I would also like to give Eragon and Flicker time to catch up now that they are both off V/LA. Please also run me through why you're fine hammering Trinity when FF is on the wagon. Do you think he's bussing, or what? My other questions also need answering.


@Everyone voting or considering voting Trinity, please explain how her VT claim makes sense with her being mafia.

[nancy]

Quick, preflip associations happen when person C says that person B is mafia because person A is mafia and they seem like partners, but person A has not flipped, C is just convinced that A is mafia. Looking at a wagon and noticing that your scumreads are on the wagon and deciding that you're not comfortable helping someone who you explicitly

do not trust to the point that you want to kill them

to kill someone else has exactly nothing to do with that.

How on earth are you okay with lynching someone when you don't even have a good idea of what they have done this game? This is literally way too late to be thinking about the game "off the cuff". You are lynching someone. That means they're dead. Forever.

Why can't Trinity be voting Oka because she thinks he's mafia? "Opportunistic" is just a buzzword. It doesn't mean anything. What does "breaking the pattern of OMGUS reads" mean and how is that mafia indicative?

What do you think about her claim?

[nancy]

What you're trying to say is that you believe Trinity deviated from her villager process.

[nancy]

My townread on Flicker is completely gone. Her thoughts about WhyMafia are insane. I don't think it's a remotely believable thought from town that WhyMafia should for some reason have the same reads as stan, that just looks like a super fake way to shade WhyMafia. Her read on Trinity is nonsense. "RVS weirdness that morphed into reads weirdness that doesn't feel as towny" is gibberish.

What about Oka claiming VT makes sense, if he's mafia?

This is the rhetorical technique Trump uses, she's just trying to deconstruct any reason to townread Trinity's claim.

Definitely gonna be some interesting VCA tomorrow, I think.

The use of "interesting" here is scummy because it's a uselessly vague, throwaway comment and it shows she's not really thinking about the game. It also TMI's that she knows Trinity isn't flipping mafia.

And her votes are just so bad. She scumread Quick but voted Trinity, who she townread. And now her townread is very conveniently "gone". That makes no sense whatsoever.

I shouldn't have been suckered into townreading her for her AtE.

Go back to this post:

[...] Am I breaking some protocols I’m not aware of LOL?

@Formerfish

, didn't you say you had an issue with players who were too focused on rules and procedures and stuff? What do you think about this, and Trinity in general?

This is one of the scummiest things in the entire game. She's simultaneously buddying up to FF (which would spew him town) and trying to get him to scumread Trinity at the same time without taking a stance on Trinity herself. It's an extremely dishonest and obscenely slimy approach that just doesn't come from town. She's like a snake whispering in FF's ear that Trinity is mafia.

Vote: Flicker

[nancy]

Her scum flip spews FF, Trinity, Oka and WhyMafia town. I think the team is Flicker/Eragon.

pedit it's an independent scumread. And its never too late to CFD.

[nancy]

Look at all my past games. I nail scum with CFD's like 90% of the time.

[nancy]

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/wiki/Chinese_Fire_Drill

[nancy]

Anyway don't follow me unless you actually agree with my reasoning. I'm just saying me doing this isn't out of the norm for me. If you think Trinity is mafia then lynch her. Shrug.

[nancy]

I'm sorta wanting to agree with Nancy and go with it. What do you all think?

Why do you need to hear other people's opinions, though? Also why don't you find it scummy that I'm doing this when you've been scumreading me whenever I move my vote before?

[nancy]

Another flash wagon? I didn't realize there had been one before lmao.

No, I already backed off the Trinity scumread after talking to you, and I scumread Oka still yes but in the world where Flicker is mafia then Oka isn't mafia so her scum flip clears him. (And that's not a preflip, Quick, lmao.)

[nancy]

I don't agree that pressure is no longer there when I take off my vote. I think you can push people very effectively and apply a ton of pressure without ever voting them.

@WM I don't have an issue with that post from Oka.

[nancy]

Anyway I'm out, I'll be keeping up and stuff but I have laid out my reasoning, y'all can agree/disagree as you please. I'm not interested in muscling anything through or dictating where the lynch goes with the holy powers of persuasion. Think for yourselves and don't be sheep.

[nancy]

I don't agree that pressure is no longer there when I take off my vote. I think you can push people very effectively and apply a ton of pressure without ever voting them.

@WM I don't have an issue with that post from Oka.

That's just not true and I'm not 100% sure why you keep saying it. I might be new but, I know effective pressure only really comes from intents to hammer. Which you've made sure we've avoided at all costs.

One of my best friends who plays mafia almost never uses her vote. She has been playing way longer than I have, she is one of the best scumhunters I know, and she has pushed through more lynches without ever even voting the person than I have pushed through while voting them. Believe me, your vote is important but you don't need it to apply pressure to someone or even to lynch them. Not that I'm saying you should play like her... just have an open mind.

[nancy]

Alright then. Just lynch Flicker tomorrow when Trinity flips town if I'm not alive and Eragon the day after that.

Think about this before you hammer, though. Which two slots have been the least engaged all game? Not Trinity, she's been engaged in her own bumbling way. Who?

Literally everyone has been really active, except Flicker and Eragon. Everyone except those two have had a meaningful say in how the day has progressed.

Just think about that before you hammer.

Now.

IC night action stuff.

If you're a cop/neapolitan then you should generally check someone who is in your lower or upper null reads, scum tend to hide there a lot. If you ever get a guilty check, don't out it straight away at daystart. Wait a bit, maybe 1/3 of the dayphase, then claim it. During that time before you claim, push on your red check to see how others respond, or push on others to see how your red check responds. This lets you get much more information out of your check.

If you're a tracker you're kinda like a cop but you generally want to target the person who you think is most likely to make the night kill. That's generally very contextual. If there's only one scum alive, you can clear townies. If you track someone and they go nowhere, and there was a nightkill that night, then the person you tracked is cleared as town. So with 1 scum alive, it's best to track inside the PoE, so that you can save mislynches.

If you're a doctor, you should generally protect the person who you think is most likely to be town or the person who you think mafia is most likely to kill. My personal philosophy is to protect the person who I would miss being in the game the most. This doesn't always work, because sometimes that person is just never a realistic NK, but that's where I start.

If you're a jailkeeper, just act as if you're a protective most of the time. You can jail defensively, which is like protection, and offensively, which can potentially roleblock the mafia kill. You should only offensively jailkeep and target someone in the PoE if there is only 1 scum alive. With 1 scum alive, unless there is a really obvious NK, it can be good to jail offensively inside the PoE because if there is a nightkill then the person you jailed is cleared as town, and that saves town a mislynch. If there's no nightkill, chances are that you blocked them from making the kill, but it's not a hard guilty. This especially doesn't apply if the jailkeeper is outed or if another PR is outed and scum know that there is a JK, because scum can do a no-kill gambit to try to fake a guilty.

Don't ever breadcrumb who you're targeting.

I think that's everything.

Oh yeah. If I die tonight then any Doctor or Jailkeeper claim later in the claim should be very very suspect. The only way that a Doctor claim could be real I think is if we're in column A and mafia lucked out on roleblocking the Doctor. But in that case mafia would generally know that they had blocked the Doctor and the Doctor should die n2. So yeah, definitely don't clear people for claiming either of those roles if I die tonight.

The chances of me being alive tomorrow are actually something like 66%, I think, because only 3 out of the 9 possible rands have no protection. I kind of low-key hope that we're in a rand without protection because I dunno if I want to be in this game anymore but that's not really up to me I guess.

[nancy]

Oka - scum lean, mainly because of the weak case he was trying to make on me, and

poor answers to questions others have asked

.

Trinity, would you mind quoting one or two of Oka's answers that you thought were poor around that time please?

[nancy]

Do you mean your post 1009?

Post 28 was an answer to a theory question, which is usually not alignment indicative. Was there something specific you didn't like about his answer?

I didn't understand the other examples to be Oka's answers to other questions. Did you misspeak in the post where you listed your read on Oka, or am I not understanding you right, or something else?

[nancy]

If you think Trinity is a mislynch, then don't hammer her, Iceman. Jeez. What the heckie.

[nancy]

Sorry for losing my mind at EoD.

Game should hopefully be more bearable now that you all have the crucifixion of Trinity out of your systems.

[nancy]

Yeah same Ice, I'm less confident on my town reads

Why are you less confident in your town reads?

I don't like Nancy near the end of D1. She seemed kinda strange about the wagons, and it rubbed me the wrong way. I don't like her shifting of wagons, and wishy-washiness, so close to deadline. I feel like Oka's reasoning is relatively weak, and made to explain his NK on Flicker to get Eragon dead.

I want to see what Eragon is like today though.

Yeah, I was trying to save Trinity, my mafia partner. You got me.

Why. On earth. Are you suspicious of Oka. For sharing your scumread. Do you understand that the people who think the same things as you are generally more likely to be town?

short answer - your response to nancy when she first voted you never comes from town lmao

I'll have a long answer later

That's what I thought too. Except I just played in a game off-site where someone did exactly the same thing as Oka and they were town.

[nancy]

Oh, Oka, you should actually go over about your Quick read properly today. Because I'm pretty sure we had the same read and I'm pretty sure that it's not a good read, so... might want to rethink that one a little bit.

[nancy]

but why would scum!eragon and scum!ff not just string me up?

explanation for scum!ff would be i guess he wants to pocket me, but more obvious and easier explanation is that he is town. the problem is im expecting some "town tells" of sample size 1 from FF that im not getting. Formerfish had a scumread on me and was even pushing me, why not just continue pushing me? He was one of the first to push me.

if there has to be scum on the trinity wagon it would be eragon, but again why didn't he just intent to hammer me or vote me instead as scum? im confused

Is pretty much where I'm at as well, yeah.

[nancy]

Oka, scum could easily have been afraid to scumread you because you were so busy in thread and willing to go up against anyone.

I'll talk about the nk after Quick does.

Vote: Eragon

[nancy]

(Also after FF does.)

[nancy]

Why do you want others to talk before you?

also note the new deadline, hesitation isn't going to do town any favors.

Because it helps me sort them better.

Am not really planning on making too many posts this day phase, mostly interested to see who does stuff without me and who sits on their ass.

[nancy]

Your day opening is blatantly town, for instance.

[nancy]

Unvote

Jesus don't put people to L-1 this early, and announce it please.

[nancy]

Whaaaaat why, don't leave me

[nancy]

Heh, there's seven days in the phase, guys, calm down.

Iceman's read flip on me looks pretty bad. He also keeps doing stuff that doesn't really fit the way he's described his process, like the hammer on trinity when eragon and flicker were trying to catch up and I'd told him not to hammer. I kind of thought it might be twtbaw but eh, the more I see from him the less he makes sense to me. His stuff about everyone looking like scum to him doesn't line up with his reads at all. He has most if t game as town, and he was scum reading Oka yesterday but has flipped that read too.

@oka stop being silly. I don't make 350 posts day 1 then suddenly feel shy about posting day 2 as mafia. I didn't see you unvote. Your question is also... What? I pushed on Flicker for the very obvious reason that I stated, I thought she was mafia. I only started thinking that because I was losing my mind, sure, but why else would I push her. I'm not sure if you realize how tilted I was by your push on trinity and the wagon on her in general. Your push was honestly one of the worst things I've seen in a newbie game. Anyway.

Wrt the NK, it seems almost certainly a pr shot. It doesn't make sense in any other world because she had no real reads and wasn't pushing anything. I was thinking about who would make that kill and like, my tin foil is that quick makes that kill, he's the kind of player who I think would make a suboptimal kill because he's convinced he has a role read. I also just super expected him to die last night. Tin foil is kind of stupid though and nka isn't super reliable this early so eh. Mostly just having a lot of thinking emoji that he didn't die.

I might go to the library over the weekend so that I can go over the game properly and actually do things, my computer died and I'm stuck on my phone and it's kind of impossible to do anything properly. I've only had time to skim a bit and now make this post, am looking forward to going through eragon's stuff in particular although I found his entrance today to be kind of scummy. Dunno if he's with iceman here though?

Vote: Iceman

[nancy]

Bleh. WM subbing out is really depressing

[nancy]

Yeah, he said he was weak day 1 so I'm also waiting to see what he brings today. I don't feel like I'm running in circles, but I wouldn't be surprised if others do besides you. You kinda need to slow down and go over day 1 like you've done here. There's so much content, you don't need to push stuff to make more.

[nancy]

Hi I'm at the library.

i burned all my reads after trinity flip and then i tossed the ashes after flicker nk

imma go reevaluate everyone including quick, starting from scratch

Yeah, don't do this.

This is exactly why I told you that playing from a PoE is better than whatever it was you were doing yesterday.

I lost two townreads between yesterday and today, but I still have two, which is far from ideal but is functional enough of a towncore under the circumstances, I have two slots that are big question marks that I want to get a solid read on today, and I have two slots that I think have a good chance of being scum. I'm not lost because I actually have a process and it builds on itself and holds itself up, it doesn't fall apart when something goes wrong. If you hadn't tunneled one of my townreads and gotten her lynched then the PoE would be smaller and my core would be stronger, but sometimes that's just how it goes, and I have to make the best of what I've got.

Like, at some point you need to figure out that the way you're approaching things is really backwards from a process standpoint.

only explanation is that the original trinity counterwagon was full town, but that is really presumptive

Are you thinking this because you don't expect mafia to try to start a new wagon when there's already a perfectly good one on you? I think it's a mistake to just say "the way the wagon formed means there's no mafia on there". That's not how you should do VCA. You should see the VCs and think, "huh, something's weird about that" and then use that data point as a starting point to figuring out your reads on the slots on question.

You're kinda already doing that, based on what I've read? You have FF as a big question mark in the VCs, and you've now gone over your read on him a bunch. That's great.

Personally my focus is on Iceman, because on the wagon on you, I am pretty confident that WhyMafia is town, Trinity is confirmed town, I'm town, you're my top townread at this point, Flicker is confirmed town, so if I'm going to say that Iceman is town then that means that both scum are in Quick/Eragon/FF. If I can get a solid read on Iceman, then I have a really good lock on where the team is and I'm hitting mafia 67% of the time lynching in that grouping. I also have an unaligned read between Quick and FF, so if I end up townreading Iceman then Eragon is basically lock scum for me, regardless of who his partner is, he is mafia in every world.

Get it?

[nancy]

Clearly, someone is lying here (going to read up, I guess). What I initially think of this is that WM is a bit too strong here on Oka in that it's really God Damn easy to poke things that you weren't around for because you had no real involvement in the game at the time. Overall, WM's case on Oka is still mostly just a lot of buzzwords. Yes, he has some decent points about Oka, but only if they are true and things aren't open to interpretation. My gut tells me this is a Scum case WM is pulling and he's trying to distract from the pressure I put on him.

Also, I think it's pretty safe to assume WM and Oka are not SvS.

I really really don't agree. I scumread Oka for a lot of the same things and I think what he's reading into is entirely reasonable. WhyMafia is my strongest townread after Oka and I think the way he came in and responded to the wagons on Trinity/Oka was extremely town. I can go back and pull quotes if needed but he had no agenda there. I also think the progression of his Oka read has been really organic, he's been all over the place with it but his movements have been intuitive the entire way.

I don't agree that the case was just a lot of or even any buzzwords and I don't understand how you're scumreading WM with that reasoning when you've said that you don't believe buzzwords are a thing.

It doesn't have to be "someone is lying here" and I think it's silly to assume the worst of WM when he's no longer here to clarify. You just have to assume he read things differently.

[nancy]

is it safe to assume that nancy is a rational and optimal player?

Heh.

I have my moments.

[nancy]

Why do you want others to talk before you?

also note the new deadline, hesitation isn't going to do town any favors.

Because it helps me sort them better.

Am not really planning on making too many posts this day phase, mostly interested to see who does stuff without me and who sits on their ass.

Am not really planning on making too many posts this day phase, mostly interested to see who does stuff without me and who sits on their ass.

thats my case

Lol.

I'm pretty sure you don't actually think I'm mafia, but... stop being stupid. I'm townreading you because I'm town. I spent the entire night phase agonizing over my read on you. Because I'm town. I couldn't tell anymore how much of my scumread was hating you for pushing on Trinity and how much was actually thinking you were mafia, and I eventually ended up thinking that you actually believed in your read on her and landed on a really strong townread on you. I did all this work because I'm town. You already know this.

[nancy]

Here are my horriable reads at the moment.

Oka - Town. Blew my mind too but yea. I'm feeling oka as town right now. I don't know why but, the post about Eragon just made sense to me and things like that tend to make me think town.
Eragon - Scum. It's pretty scummy IMO to not vote until everyone else does. Get in there and get messy. Stop sitting on the sidelines. Scum sits on sidelines.
FF - Scum. I always get suspicious of people defending me. Sorry, I tried not to feel scummy about it but now I do. Plus while I get what you're saying about your play from previous games you have to understand that it's all I have to go on.
Nancy - Scum. Leading town around even subconsciously is pretty scummy. I will say this. Anyone who uses my entire spiel about the IC being suspicious had better drop it. I don't care what read I have on Nancy. If scum takes me to LyLo I'm going to be sheeping her 100%. No questions. Whatever she votes I vote. So don't you dare take me to LyLo.
WhyMafia - Town. This one is harder to explain. Call it gut. I hate calling it gut though cause as a townie I should be able to logically explain where I'm at. I can't though.....
Quick - Town. I want to say scum but I can't. I think Quick's approach is so different from my own that I want to call him scum for it but he's been 100% consistent with it and I have to sit back and say that there isn't actually anything scummy there.

Hum.

Yeah.

Now that I've actually read the post.

Dude's town. Lol.

Vote: Eragon

[nancy]

honestly this whole im being quiet rn because <reason> is some shit id do as scum when i dont wanna talk

Your scumgame sounds boring.

I feel better about Iceman and I'm tired and my other games need more attention right now. I'll go through Iceman again properly and ISO him and everything but I'm pretty sure he's just town here. Would lynch Quick last out of Eragon/FF/Quick but I should really try to get a read on him that isn't "nightmare zone" before EoD.

[nancy]

I forgot to comment on Eragon. Was gonna wait and make it a big proper post. He may have spewed Iceman town by saying Iceman was in his PoE then calling him newbtown then saying he was scumreading him. They probably maybe aren't together. All of his posts that I read so far seem really agenda-y and his NKA feels like he has an informed PoV. Would be flabbergasted if he ever flipped town atm, and I only bust that word out for really special occasions.

[nancy]

Oh, iceman, I didn't say anything before but you literally don't get to say anything about people being in control and not hammering early after your hammer at EOD yesterday. Kindly take your ideas home and burn them.

[nancy]

I didn't hammer early. I stated my intention. I gave more then enough time for anyone to say stop or do something differnt. When it came down to the final moments I again announced and made my intentions very clear.

You can't misconstrue that into a LOLhammer.

I said way before that I wanted flicker and eragon to catch up before hammer. Which they had just started doing, when you hammered. Right after I said don't hammer and you told me to go fuck myself.

Jesus I hate this site.

[nancy]

VOTE: Nancy

Why am I scum, iceman?

[nancy]

I forgot to comment on Eragon. Was gonna wait and make it a big proper post. He may have spewed Iceman town by saying Iceman was in his PoE then calling him newbtown then saying he was scumreading him. They probably maybe aren't together. All of his posts that I read so far seem really agenda-y and his NKA feels like he has an informed PoV. Would be flabbergasted if he ever flipped town atm, and I only bust that word out for really special occasions.

In post 954 I had Iceman as a nullscum read
Then on 1261 I put him as nulltown because I looked the game over again and realiazed that a lot of his stuff was from a towny noob point of view.

And I put null-Town in my PoE, but then I put another PoS saying leaning these 3, and he isn’t one of those.
I fail to see your point.

When did I make a NKA???

Can you explain what about my posts are agenda-y?

I can't pull quotes on my phone. It's all in your posting this day phase.

Agenda-y: it feels like you're going after people not because you think they're mafia but because you just want to get them lynched or make them look bad, basically. Your stances seem contrived, like your trinity read which conveniently let you hop on her wagon without doing anything to push it, and allowing you to pull off her at any point because you said she was twtbaw.

[nancy]

I didn't hammer early. I stated my intention. I gave more then enough time for anyone to say stop or do something differnt. When it came down to the final moments I again announced and made my intentions very clear.

You can't misconstrue that into a LOLhammer.

I said way before that I wanted flicker and eragon to catch up before hammer. Which they had just started doing, when you hammered. Right after I said don't hammer and you told me to go fuck myself.

Jesus I hate this site.

sorry what? could you link me this post?

I don't have computer access, sorry. Quick and I had a while conversation about it, I'm surprised you don't remember.

[nancy]

Wait, eragon, is the bolded text in 1494 your commentary or is that part of the quote?

Pedit dude I'm on my phone, it's impossible to search for it, ctrl+f flicker in my iso, I don't mention her that many times

[nancy]

Yeah it was before any of those quotes

[nancy]

What are you doing. Those are Iceman quotes. Lmao

Fuck it I'll trawl through my iso for you