Overkill 2: A Blood-Thirsty Stallone Themed Game

[DrewVa]

Hi everyone and the greatest joke is having no flavour cop in this game.

I’m liking Bujaber, Gamma, maybe Varsoon so far.

DVa liked RCE and Biff - who I don’t have any read on yet.

[DrewVa]

So, there are 26 of us. Game started with 22 of us confirming our roles. Now everyone confirmed their role, but only 22 have commented in this thread. I'm almost sure the four players who confirmed last, meaning that the game started before they confirmed their roles, were Wisdom, BuJaber, BrightEyedFish and DrewVa. That means that DrewVa saw that the game already started, but didn't come to say hi. That's rude.

VOTE: DrewVa

So, there are 26 of us. Game started with 22 of us confirming our roles. Now everyone confirmed their role, but only 22 have commented in this thread. I'm almost sure the four players who confirmed last, meaning that the game started before they confirmed their roles, were Wisdom, BuJaber, BrightEyedFish and DrewVa. That means that DrewVa saw that the game already started, but didn't come to say hi. That's rude.

VOTE: DrewVa

Oh, by the way, PTs are open day and night, so they probably said hi to their team instead of everyone. Rude rude rude

So, there are 26 of us. Game started with 22 of us confirming our roles. Now everyone confirmed their role, but only 22 have commented in this thread. I'm almost sure the four players who confirmed last, meaning that the game started before they confirmed their roles, were Wisdom, BuJaber, BrightEyedFish and DrewVa. That means that DrewVa saw that the game already started, but didn't come to say hi. That's rude.

VOTE: DrewVa

It could just be that he saw how many pages there were and incorrectly assumed some heavy posting and didn't have time to read but had he actually entered the thread he would have seen it's mostly one word posts by RCE.

Yeah, and it could be that they were attacked by a gorilla right after they confirmed they role. What's your point

I think this push on a lurker slot. before even a single day has passed is unerscummy. You can claim beetoejuicing all you like but not in this context. I would ignore it but it looks like RVS is over and this is a serious push from you? Amirite?

This is just a miscommunication in tone because it is a forum setting. And it's redundant already.

Admittedly I didn't look at the Hebi games that we're brought up, I think that's a legitimate read from RR so despite the non-issue between them and bef, RR is town.

I second this with violence.

Also, I agree that RR's read on Hebi was the first detectivesque post and not mine. I believe that RR's effort to take us out of RVS is very clear right now, and I like that. And by like it, I mean "I want you to be town" like it.

This post strikes me as pockety.

~Nancy

[DrewVa]

Chickadee Chick-a-day Chick-fil-a .. don't engage the crazy person

Pedit who's Biff?

I think I misspelled that BiF, I think?

Btw, with all the buddy talk, we’re in the market for one.

I don’t want this to turn into elementary school baseball all over again. :/

[DrewVa]

In post 228, pinturicchio wrote:
In post 221, RCEnigma wrote:
This is just a miscommunication in tone because it is a forum setting. And it's redundant already.

Admittedly I didn't look at the Hebi games that we're brought up, I think that's a legitimate read from RR so despite the non-issue between them and bef, RR is town.

I second this with violence.

Also, I agree that RR's read on Hebi was the first detectivesque post and not mine. I believe that RR's effort to take us out of RVS is very clear right now, and I like that. And by like it, I mean "I want you to be town" like it.


This post strikes me as pockety.

~Nancy

I thought so too. Let Dva know you guys can pocket me instead.

But you have to 1v1 BeF

3(4)-way town circle? because you already told FL, you and Bif were exclusive?

[DrewVa]

I think this push on a lurker slot. before even a single day has passed is unerscummy. You can claim beetoejuicing all you like but not in this context. I would ignore it but it looks like RVS is over and this is a serious push from you? Amirite?

This is just a miscommunication in tone because it is a forum setting. And it's redundant already.

Admittedly I didn't look at the Hebi games that we're brought up, I think that's a legitimate read from RR so despite the non-issue between them and bef, RR is town.

I second this with violence.

Also, I agree that RR's read on Hebi was the first detectivesque post and not mine. I believe that RR's effort to take us out of RVS is very clear right now, and I like that. And by like it, I mean "I want you to be town" like it.

This post strikes me as pockety.

~Nancy

1. Serious vote, not serious push. Different things. But how serious is a vote for lurking on IRL day 1?
2. Pockety towards RCE or RR? If it's RCE, agreeing with someone is not pocketing. If it's RR, yeah I can understand you get that feeling, I've been told that before, but

my intention, as always, is to create a townbloc as early as I can.

Adding LAMIST to the mix. On what basis is this a serious vote? You’re sr us, based on what exactly - BEFORE we’ve even made a single post? This seems disingenuous on your part. Game just started last night. You can hardly consider our slot lurksacks based on that.

[DrewVa]

P.rdit RR obviously. Now answer my question. How do you make a seriois vote on a slot before they’ve even made a single post - less than one freaking day after the game just started?

[DrewVa]

So, there are 26 of us. Game started with 22 of us confirming our roles. Now everyone confirmed their role, but only 22 have commented in this thread. I'm almost sure the four players who confirmed last, meaning that the game started before they confirmed their roles, were Wisdom, BuJaber, BrightEyedFish and DrewVa. That means that DrewVa saw that the game already started, but didn't come to say hi. That's rude.

VOTE: DrewVa

This might just be
VOTE: DrewVa
Sorry DVA, but the hand you’ve been dealt seems to be a bad one (idk if this is the right metaphor for what I’m saying)

You’d be very wrong about that. Thankfully, I am town this game. On what stupid basis are you even coming up with this nonsence? Sorry but this is beyond whacked.

This game is called Overkill not Overfill the goddamned asylum,

[DrewVa]

Yes, I knew the game had started and I hate RVS and was waiting for it to be over. Ever since Necromancer, when I almost got maj’d in the span of less than 2 hours, I’ve tried to avoid it. Stop being bad Gamma. You know I’m town here.

[DrewVa]

Adding LAMIST to the mix. On what basis is this a serious vote? You’re sr us, based on what exactly - BEFORE we’ve even made a single post? This seems disingenuous on your part. Game just started last night. You can hardly consider our slot lurksacks based on that.

I said I ALWAYS do a townbloc. I do that as scum, too. It's a good strategy in both cases. I see that you want to antagonize whatever I say just because my first vote was on you, eh? Aggresive, be be aggresive. As I said before, how serious is a vote on someone who hasn't posted in IRL first day? Thought my point was clear with that.
However, I CAN consider your slot lurksacks based on what I said, you can't decide what I consider as lurking or not. You confirmed your role via PM and the game already started when you did, but you didn't say anything. I don't think that's scummy, and I never said that either.

You did say it was a “serious” vote, did you not? Gun to head (if you’re actually town here), do you honestly think we’re scum here?

[DrewVa]

So, there are 26 of us. Game started with 22 of us confirming our roles. Now everyone confirmed their role, but only 22 have commented in this thread. I'm almost sure the four players who confirmed last, meaning that the game started before they confirmed their roles, were Wisdom, BuJaber, BrightEyedFish and DrewVa. That means that DrewVa saw that the game already started, but didn't come to say hi. That's rude.

VOTE: DrewVa

This might just be
VOTE: DrewVa
Sorry DVA, but the hand you’ve been dealt seems to be a bad one (idk if this is the right metaphor for what I’m saying)

You’d be very wrong about that. Thankfully, I am town this game. On what stupid basis are you even coming up with this nonsence? Sorry but this is beyond whacked.

This game is called Overkill not Overfill the goddamned asylum,

Yes, I knew the game had started and I hate RVS and was waiting for it to be over. Ever since Necromancer, when I almost got maj’d in the span of less than 2 hours, I’ve tried to avoid it. Stop being bad Gamma. You know I’m town here.

Assuming this is Nancy head
Maybe you dislike RVS but I know DVa is totally chill with it. Also you acting out this way feels a bit shady when I called out DVa.

Are you for real? Do you not know, we’re in a hydra?

[DrewVa]

Adding LAMIST to the mix. On what basis is this a serious vote? You’re sr us, based on what exactly - BEFORE we’ve even made a single post? This seems disingenuous on your part. Game just started last night. You can hardly consider our slot lurksacks based on that.

I said I ALWAYS do a townbloc. I do that as scum, too. It's a good strategy in both cases. I see that you want to antagonize whatever I say just because my first vote was on you, eh? Aggresive, be be aggresive. As I said before, how serious is a vote on someone who hasn't posted in IRL first day? Thought my point was clear with that.
However, I CAN consider your slot lurksacks based on what I said, you can't decide what I consider as lurking or not. You confirmed your role via PM and the game already started when you did, but you didn't say anything. I don't think that's scummy, and I never said that either.

You did say it was a “serious” vote, did you not? Gun to head (if you’re actually town here), do you honestly think we’re scum here?

This is WIFOM and AtE filled. Gun to head was to elicit a reaction where saying yes, i think you’re scum is bad, and no, i think you’re town is good.

When in actuality, either answer is NAI. The gun to head was a buzz phrase.

Pinn was saying his vote on us was “serious” but that he wasn’t necessarily scumreading me, so I wanted to clarify that.

[DrewVa]

did nancy finally roll scum

VOTE: drewva

VOTE: Wisdom

If anyone in this game, should know that I’m obvtown here it’s you.

[DrewVa]

I kinda get that response from him, though.

I’m not necessarily scum reading you, but my vote is serious.

If that makes sense.

There is probably scum on our wagon hoping to force me to claim. I’m not falling for that.

If you’re scum here, I think that would definitely be in your wheelhouse.

[DrewVa]

youre definitely not obvtown

My vote is staying on you. Since when are you this bad at reading me?

[DrewVa]

I kinda get that response from him, though.

I’m not necessarily scum reading you, but my vote is serious.

If that makes sense.

There is probably scum on our wagon hoping to force me to claim. I’m not falling for that.

If you’re scum here, I think that would definitely be in your wheelhouse.

Nah, I’d say hammer without claim. I also like baiting flash wagons then tunneling people who jumped on it, though.

Claims mean nothing in a game like this tbh.

That’s fucking bullshit and you know it.

[DrewVa]

Chickadee Chick-a-day Chick-fil-a .. don't engage the crazy person

Pedit who's Biff?

I kinda get that response from him, though.

I’m not necessarily scum reading you, but my vote is serious.

If that makes sense.

There is probably scum on our wagon hoping to force me to claim. I’m not falling for that.

If you’re scum here, I think that would definitely be in your wheelhouse.

Nah, I’d say hammer without claim. I also like baiting flash wagons then tunneling people who jumped on it, though.

Claims mean nothing in a game like this tbh.

That’s fucking bullshit and you know it.

No actually he's right.

But why? If I claim, we are probably going to die tonight.

[DrewVa]

Then don’t claim. You need 14 people on you. You have 3. Why are you feeling this much pressure?

Are you sure, it’s only 3, I thought it was more like 5?

And that’s why my vote is on Wisdom. He would know better than anyone in this game. how I react to votes on me because I almost got mislynched in Necromancer for almost having a meltdown over it, so his vote on our slot is the worst -solely based on that.

[DrewVa]

I agree; his vote is the worst on your slot.

the worst isnt in this game

Derping Wisdom=scum!Wisdom.

I’ve made my worst reads, tr people for derping, as Varsoon can attest to in BoR.

[DrewVa]

Oh, I forgot about the people who voted you prior to Pinn. It might be more than 5.

Idk. This is pretty classic TownNancy, I feel.

I’ve never seen scumNancy, though. I feel she’d be able to mimic it. Maybe even have some genuineness because I feel she’d stress a little over it.

Feel free to ISO me in Overkill 1 where I rolled SK.

[DrewVa]

P.edit and Heroes wanted. Breifly Halloween as well. God, that’s alot back to back. Whoah.

[DrewVa]

its not me whos derping

I agree; his vote is the worst on your slot.

the worst isnt in this game

[DrewVa]

its not me whos derping

I agree; his vote is the worst on your slot.

the worst isnt in this game

The difference being, for me, derping is NAI. I do that as either alignment. You mostly do that as scum.

[DrewVa]

You cant detect that as being funny and you want to accuse other people of derping
Srsly nancy

I don’t believe you think I’m scum here.

[DrewVa]

I expected it to be like...Me with half the player list.

If Varsoon was active, we’d have 1v1’d by now.

Varsoon fooled me with his massive derping in BoR. I no longer read derping as defacto town indicative anymore. And I have been specifically fooled by scum!Wisdom derping. So, I think a decent chance he could be scum here.

[DrewVa]

I do what as scum? Misunderstand things? Or do you mean something different by derping

I read yoir ISO. Nothing reads townie about it, as compared with your usual town games. You are voting me, for I don’t even know what reasons. To quote you,

IF

you’re town here, why aren’t you trying to find scum?

[DrewVa]

If he's scum why do you care about his read on you?

Because I think he’s scumclaiming because I don’t believe his read on me is sincere.

[DrewVa]

You cant detect that as being funny and you want to accuse other people of derping
Srsly nancy

Are you sr me for this

specifically

? Yes or no?

The answer to that, will 100% clarify if this is possibly a misread on me or not.

[DrewVa]

There have been tons of games since necromancer
That excuse has expired

This post, is pinging me the hardest, because you have 0 evidence debunking this.

[DrewVa]

There have been tons of games since necromancer
That excuse has expired

This post, is pinging me the hardest, because you have 0 evidence debunking this.

You find even one single town game of mine, where I haven’t freaked out at getting voted. You can’t because it doesn’t fucking exist.

[DrewVa]

That just means youre going to emulate it as scum

My point is we've been over this in a game after necromancer and you reacting like this is not warranted

Now, I really think you may really be scum here. How am I reacting Wisdom? Upset at being wrongly scumread? You fucking betcha.

[DrewVa]

why are you assuming we have reasons and you even know what our reasons are

Because this is the beginning of Necromancer redux. You hard defended me for that last time. That’s what I’m not getting. How is what’s happening rn any different then the beginning of that game? You know it’s not.

by that logic im not allowed to vote you in any game because it will be like necromancer
Or will you be kind enough to not object when you actually roll scum and i vote you?

ring any bells?

I do object because I’m not fucking scum here. Have you even read a single one of my scum games on this site? Assuming there’s a snowball’s chance in hell you are actually town here and not being daft?

[DrewVa]

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77420&start=4750

Here, since you are apparently too fucking lazy to look it up yourself.

[DrewVa]

why are you assuming we have reasons and you even know what our reasons are

Because this is the beginning of Necromancer redux. You hard defended me for that last time. That’s what I’m not getting. How is what’s happening rn any different then the beginning of that game? You know it’s not.

by that logic im not allowed to vote you in any game because it will be like necromancer
Or will you be kind enough to not object when you actually roll scum and i vote you?

ring any bells?

I do object because I’m not fucking scum here. Have you even read a single one of my scum games on this site? Assuming there’s a snowball’s chance in hell you are actually town here and not being daft?

Lololol, really really bad example scum!Wisdom. I was town and YOU were scum.

[DrewVa]

DVa here

Don’t lynch me. Thanks, bye.

I’m gonna just coast. I’m probably a SK. If not SK, I’m Mafia.

Reactions? Go.

I'd vig this

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

town

Let's get to the real question. Why are you so active?

town

God this page 1 scum theater has been great
I'm really glad I rolled with you guys as my team
Like what are the chances amirite

Varsoon makes arguments that don't read like shit as scum so this is probably town too

[DrewVa]

DVa continued, page 2 is boring

I think you're a liar Profii.

Maybe scum?

[DrewVa]

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=76865&start=4975

This is the game, that Wisdom just quoted from. The only game since Necromancer where he’s ever voted me.

Him quoting this game as a justification for scumreading me here is priceless.

[DrewVa]

Nancy, you're clearly aware of your meta, so everything you're saying is NAI right now.

Yes but so is Wisdom and he just justified his scumread on me based on a quote he made in a game where he was scum and I was town.

[DrewVa]

DVa continued
Not going into detail on the boring pages, RR is town tho

VOTE: RCE for the Dr Evil avi.

BoP says scum but maybe it's unfair to expect alchemist to catch scum in pregame every time

VOTE: creature

feels like half the game is missing already

It just started.

I'm used to games filling up 20 pages in half this time in half this playercount.

I'm aware it just started.

Swear you made this comment in Heroes Wanted. If you jinx it I turbolynch you ;$

Gamma rolled town

[DrewVa]

Nancy, you're clearly aware of your meta, so everything you're saying is NAI right now.

QFT.

Though with the caveat that she DOES have limited scum time on this site, so her ability to hide the minor differences between her groupscum and town metas might be limited...but she's definitely self aware enough to at least attempt to replicate her town meta as scum.

Fair warning though Nancy, blowing up whenever someone votes you as town is simply going to get you 1)vigged an unreasonable amount of the time, and 2) lynched D1 because who the fuck wants to deal with that?

-Cerb

I don’t handle being wrongly scumread well. I know that’s something I need to work on but tbf, that’s a lot easier said than done. :/

[DrewVa]

D continued --

How many scum are we looking at

what the fuck is this

So, there are 26 of us. Game started with 22 of us confirming our roles. Now everyone confirmed their role, but only 22 have commented in this thread. I'm almost sure the four players who confirmed last, meaning that the game started before they confirmed their roles, were Wisdom, BuJaber, BrightEyedFish and DrewVa. That means that DrewVa saw that the game already started, but didn't come to say hi. That's rude.

VOTE: DrewVa

shitty post but still town

Let Dva know you guys can pocket me instead.

You're my top townread and that read will never be shaken. But you've also failed as Reinhardt to shield me once, so I'm not sure I can trust you as a tank. You can be support this game--would you rather be Ana or Zenyatta?

[DrewVa]

This might just be
VOTE: DrewVa
Sorry DVA, but the hand you’ve been dealt seems to be a bad one (idk if this is the right metaphor for what I’m saying)

That's ok, although you know you will be sad if I dance with someone else. Are you going to let that happen Gamma? Are you going to make that mistake?

[DrewVa]

Assuming this is Nancy head
Maybe you dislike RVS but I know DVa is totally chill with it. Also you acting out this way feels a bit shady when I called out DVa.

I like RVS in small games, large games I tend to lurk until someone calls me out and then get nightkilled when I decide to even exert 5% effort - D

[DrewVa]

d:

Scum/third parties:
Alchemist21
profii
Wisdom

Third parties
Flavor Leaf -- Clearly Flavor Leaf is an honorable and trustworthy man and would not lie about being SK

Town
Varsoon
Reasonably Rational (Drixx & Cerb)
RCEnigma
Gamma Emerald
pinturicchio
BrightEyedFish

lynch in top three, vig flavor leaf, game is solved by day 3

[DrewVa]

UNVOTE:

I need my buddy back I don't have anyone to vote.

dive deep into my pocket and sheep Nancy on Wisdom --d

[DrewVa]

Drewva what do you think about Hebi and Hebi/FL? @The Nancy head.

I don’t know what to make of hebi rn. I don’t know why she lied about being lynched D1 but I dunno if it’s scum indicative. I do know she gets wrongly scumread a lot in games. I don’t know whether that’s the case here, so she’s null to me rn.

Not much rn, if either one flips scum, I’ll revisit it. Most of it seems to be coming from FL to hebi and not so much, ghe other way around, so possible pocket? I’d guess recruiter but A50 said this game wasn’t bastard. \_0_/

Any particular reason, you’re asking me this question?

[DrewVa]

What made you go to wisdom? I really can’t remeber what made me put him in the scum category but I will re-read tomorrow - however if you give me a shortcut I’d be much obliged

Because I'm not sure of his alignment. LAst time I wasn't sure of his alignment he was scum. He has a style of short, confident posts as either alignment.

He has yet to give any reason for voting me. I still think town!Wisdom should be able to read me better. The fact that he hasn’t checked the link I gave him, when I actually was scum but still nevertheless is suggesting I’m somehow “emulating” my town game, definitely concerns me. He has made 0 effort to try to sort me. or really aly do any kind of actual solving for that matter. Gun to head, I think Wisdom could be a 3P here.

~Nancy

[DrewVa]

Lost all my quotes .. weird I remember auto logout taking longer.

Nancy that reaction was super weird. Why are you getting this upset? Why are you trying to guilt people into townreading you? And I think it was directed at gamma where you basically said you either think I'm town or you're scum or something somewhat threatening like that
Unwarranted and does make me feel you're trying to play to your alleged town meta more than it's just a natural response.

RCE - what did wisdom say that changed your mind?

And what's with all the BoP on wisdom.. I remember him being more of a late game player. He posts lots of jokes and one word posts and naked reads/votes without explanation in d1. Wisdom am I misremembering?


Creature is in this game? Wut ..just noticed. Hi creature what do you think of wisdom this game? Gamma? RR?
Anybody else you want to talk about..


Amz can you state a reason or reasons for your vote?

Whoever voted cheeky is on to something. I'd expect more posts by now.

Pedit - no I get paranoid by buddies during the game. I'm all for it after.

Where are you getting that from? When did I ever call Gamma scum? I think he is confusing disliking my playstyle with scumreading me. He townread me in Overkill 1 when I was scum and he’s scumreading me. now that I’m town. Yes, I do overreact and you can confirm that by checking any of my town games - the vast majority of them.

And you’d definitely be wrong about that. I never fake my emotions. I wouldn’t even attempt to do that because I’m sure it would be so blatantly obvious, if I ever did that.

[DrewVa]

Bujaber - FL made a good point about grabbing attention. The back and forth with Nancy was exactly that, Don't think Wisdom has anything to gain from the exchange. The pressure on Nancy is nice and Wisdom may not have set it in motion but he did jumpstart it. Sad FL called Nancy town so early.

He also shut Varsoon down which was pretty sweet.

What exactly did Wisdom “jumpstart”?

You do realize that that quote he referenced was taken from Forgotten Hourglass, where he was scum and I was town, right?

[DrewVa]

Drewva what do you think about Hebi and Hebi/FL? @The Nancy head.

I don’t know what to make of hebi rn. I don’t know why she lied about being lynched D1 but I dunno if it’s scum indicative. I do know she gets wrongly scumread a lot in games. I don’t know whether that’s the case here, so she’s null to me rn.

Not much rn, if either one flips scum, I’ll revisit it. Most of it seems to be coming from FL to hebi and not so much, ghe other way around, so possible pocket? I’d guess recruiter but A50 said this game wasn’t bastard. \_0_/

Any particular reason, you’re asking me this question?

Ehh I need to start putting my thoughts down when I'm reading through, there was something FL or Hebi said that made me question if you had ties with one of the slots, plus you making little to no mention of either. It's a large playerlist so part of it is just keeping tabs.

On the other hand I wanted to get an idea of how cohesive the heads are because Profii hit it on the head. I read Dva as light town but I don't get the same vibes when you post. So it's good to know what is coming impulsively from Nancy or Dva and what's probably coordinated.

Why would you think I had “ties” to either one? I see, no wonder you’re you’re townreading Wisdom here. Wisdom should know better, which is why I disagree he’s town.

[DrewVa]

@Nancy: Why couldn't that be a genuine belief or statement that Wisdom could have made regardless of alignment?

Because if he’s actually town here, it would be the first time he has misread since Necromancer. That game he referenced with that “ring any bells” comment was directly from Forgotten Hourglass, where he was scum and I was town. It’s been the only time since then he’s ever scumread me - let alone voted me since Necromancer, so why wouldn’t I be suspicious that since the only time he voted me was when he was scum, why wouldn’t I think he once again rolled scum here, hoping he’ll have better luck trying to get me mislynched? Although, tbf, Gamma seems to actually be pushing my lynch here but the difference is that Gamma can’t read me but Wisdom can.

[DrewVa]

The fact that he hasn’t checked the link I gave him, when I actually was scum but still nevertheless is suggesting I’m somehow “emulating” my town game, definitely concerns me.

you know full well i dont read games i wasn't in

You’re accusing me of being scum here and “emulating” my town game - is that correct? But you have never actually played with me as scum - also correct. So, I gave you a link to Overkill 1, where I rolled SK. to show you the difference. I’d also give you the link to Heroes Wanted but there’s no point, if you’re not going to bother ISOing me in either. :/

[DrewVa]

Gun to head, I think Wisdom could be a 3P here.

why 3p over scum?

You’re not trying to lead any wagons, like you usually do, as either town!you or Mafia!you. *shrug*. And there were like 3 or 4 votes on me at the time, so I’d be a great wagon for a 3P to have jumped on.

[DrewVa]

You do realize that that quote he referenced was taken from Forgotten Hourglass, where he was scum and I was town, right?

I like how you repeat this like it means anything and completely dodging the actual point i was making

Why did you choose a post you made as scum to rederence? Why would you expect me to have ignored that fact?

[DrewVa]

Bujaber - FL made a good point about grabbing attention. The back and forth with Nancy was exactly that, Don't think Wisdom has anything to gain from the exchange. The pressure on Nancy is nice and Wisdom may not have set it in motion but he did jumpstart it. Sad FL called Nancy town so early.

He also shut Varsoon down which was pretty sweet.

What exactly did Wisdom “jumpstart”?

You do realize that that quote he referenced was taken from Forgotten Hourglass, where he was scum and I was town, right?

Ahh well in your case the slots voting you weren't really meaningfully engaging you until Wisdom.


Interesting.

Gamma has been engaging both of our heads. But I don’t understand what point you’re trying to make here?

[DrewVa]

@Nancy: Why would scum Wisdom send you a link to a scum game when he'd know for sure you'd catch that?

@Wisdom: Why would backwards logic make you stop pushing Nancy if you really thought she was scum?

No, no I’m the one who sent him the link, he referenced a quote to a game where he was scum. I wanted him to ISO me in Overkill 1, because he has never played with me as scum.

[DrewVa]

If you think he's 3p, why are you trying to lynch him instead of finding group scum?

It’s something that recently occurred to me. He hastily been doing his usual solving and I didn’t like his ISO and 3P doesn’t mean not scum. I think there’s at least a few SKs in this game. So, until I get a scummier read, I’ll keep my vote where it is for now.

Who do you think is scum here? I’m not sure if I’m necessarily agreeing with all of DVa’s reads. And she is scumreading Wisdom for entirely different reasons than I was.

[DrewVa]

You do realize that that quote he referenced was taken from Forgotten Hourglass, where he was scum and I was town, right?

I like how you repeat this like it means anything and completely dodging the actual point i was making

Why did you choose a post you made as scum to rederence? Why would you expect me to have ignored that fact?

My alignment in that game doesnt matter, nancy
I was reminding you we've had this discussion already and that you can't just reference necromancer every time im pressuring you

You have never before misread me as town except for that. You think I should have ignored that?

[DrewVa]

Not meaningfully, at least to me. In other words not in a way that would generate content and/or create readable information.

Your interactions with wisdom made you both easier to read and sparked commentary from other slots while your interactions with Gamma make Gamma slightly easier to read and little else.

Alright.

[DrewVa]

His quote would have linked back to his scum game. Why would scum Wisdom do that?

I dunno but he has made it clear that he expected me to ignore that, despite that fact completely changing the meaning that I would obviously take from his post.

Wisdom’s argument is a mischararacterization of my point. He is suggesting that I’m expecting him to townread me, no matter what and that isn’t at all what I’ve been saying. I’ve been saying that he should be able to correctly read me

as town

- major difference.

[DrewVa]

How many games besides the game linked do you two have together? Ballpark estimate.

6 or 7, I think? He was scum in 2 of them.

[DrewVa]

How many games

besides the game linked

do you two have together? Ballpark estimate.

6 or 7, I think? He was scum in 2 of them.

P.edit - missed that. 5 or 6?

[DrewVa]

Who do you think is scum here?

If I had to choose between you and Wisdom? I'd choose you. Other than that, I'm sheeping Thorsoon on RCE, because I think there's some weight there. Other than that, just waiting to see what shakes out. Reads should be clearer by the end of the day.

I wasn’t asking between me and Wisdom but why would you choose me anyhow? Why do you think RCE is scum?

I am much better at finding townreads early on, although I got Porkens right in CoH.

[DrewVa]

Okay I just found ths.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77288&start=25.

I was curious as to why Wisdom was voting Majiffy, so I ISO’d a towngame of his where his play was entirely different than it is here.

He has objectively speaking, the worst ISO in this game. There is 0 game content of any kind - which contrasts sharply with the game I’m linking.

so

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Majiffy

[DrewVa]

Okay I just found ths.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77288&start=25.

I was curious as to why Wisdom was voting Majiffy, so I ISO’d a towngame of his where his play was entirely different than it is here.

He has objectively speaking, the worst ISO in this game. There is 0 game content of any kind - which contrasts sharply with the game I’m linking.

so

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Majiffy

P.edit Better link.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77288&user_select%5 ... &start=200

[DrewVa]

Okay I just found ths.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77288&start=25.

I was curious as to why Wisdom was voting Majiffy, so I ISO’d a towngame of his where his play was entirely different than it is here.

He has objectively speaking, the worst ISO in this game. There is 0 game content of any kind - which contrasts sharply with the game I’m linking.

so

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Majiffy

And what brought you to that game

I clicked his name and found this game and the difference between his play in that game is dramatically different than it it is here. Don’t you agree?

I caught scum!Marquis in BoD that way - through meta. It isn’t always obvious but the difference is definitely striking.

[DrewVa]

did nancy finally roll scum

VOTE: drewva

VOTE: Wisdom

If anyone in this game, should know that I’m obvtown here it’s you.

Ei yei yei...
DrewVa what are you doing? I'd say def not Obvtown.

I kinda get that response from him, though.

I’m not necessarily scum reading you, but my vote is serious.

If that makes sense.

There is probably scum on our wagon hoping to force me to claim. I’m not falling for that.

If you’re scum here, I think that would definitely be in your wheelhouse.

Nah, I’d say hammer without claim. I also like baiting flash wagons then tunneling people who jumped on it, though.

Claims mean nothing in a game like this tbh.

That’s fucking bullshit and you know it.

Simmer down now...

Please get caught up. I’m voting Majiffy. I think he is obvscum based on that dramaticly different towngame of his I found.

[DrewVa]

BEF, when you manage to get caught up, talk to me. I’m not discussing old posts.

[DrewVa]

Okay I just found ths.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77288&start=25.

I was curious as to why Wisdom was voting Majiffy, so I ISO’d a towngame of his where his play was entirely different than it is here.

He has objectively speaking, the worst ISO in this game. There is 0 game content of any kind - which contrasts sharply with the game I’m linking.

so

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Majiffy

P.edit Better link.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77288&user_select%5 ... &start=200

As contrasted with this: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77824&user_select%5B%5D=17371

I think this is scum, sheep me.

[DrewVa]

Ok I'm caught up, at least I think. I made a little readslist, mostly gut readings as I was reading along and this is what I came up with.
Not everyone is on the list just people/posts that stood out along my way of getting caught up.

More Towny:
RCEnigma
Pint
Chick
Wisdom
Flavor Leaf
Profii
Tails

More Nully:
Gamma
Varsoon
Creature
Heb
RR
Jaber

More Scummy:
DrippingGoofball
DrewVa

Lol no, you’re clearly not caught up at all.

Have you read my case on Majiffy and what do you think of it?

I really wish I could channel RaidantCowbells here.

[DrewVa]

Ehhhh

Nancy using meta to vote someone is consistent with someone who thinks they deserve to be townread based on meta.

Who GAF about your read on me. What do you think of my case on Majiffy? Gawd!

[DrewVa]

Okay I just found ths.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77288&start=25.

I was curious as to why Wisdom was voting Majiffy, so I ISO’d a towngame of his where his play was entirely different than it is here.

He has objectively speaking, the worst ISO in this game. There is 0 game content of any kind - which contrasts sharply with the game I’m linking.

so

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Majiffy

P.edit Better link.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77288&user_select%5 ... &start=200

As contrasted with this: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77824&user_select%5B%5D=17371

I think this is scum, sheep me.

Do I have to fucking retype this post in all caps or what? Is anyone going to bother to give me an opinion on this or what?

No one has told lme that my case is either bad or wrong, just keep taking shots at me without bothering to read it. I know why RC gets so frustrated in games now.

Radiantcowbells, that is.

[DrewVa]

Okay I just found ths.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77288&start=25.

I was curious as to why Wisdom was voting Majiffy, so I ISO’d a towngame of his where his play was entirely different than it is here.

He has objectively speaking, the worst ISO in this game. There is 0 game content of any kind - which contrasts sharply with the game I’m linking.

so

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Majiffy

P.edit Better link.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77288&user_select%5 ... &start=200

As contrasted with this: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77824&user_select%5B%5D=17371

I think this is scum, sheep me.

Do I have to fucking retype this post in all caps or what? Is anyone going to bother to give me an opinion on this or what?

No one has told lme that my case is either bad or wrong, just keep taking shots at me without bothering to read it. I know why RC gets so frustrated in games now.

Radiantcowbells, that is.

Well to stay objective I only looked at his 1st 3 posts in that game and compared them with his 3 posts in this game. There might be something there later on down the ling but I don't think we have enough content from him here to compare play styles right now.

Thanks for giving me your opinion. We still have a few more days and hopefully, this will be made a lot clearee closer to EOD.

[DrewVa]

Ehhhh

Nancy using meta to vote someone is consistent with someone who thinks they deserve to be townread based on meta.

Who GAF about your read on me. What do you think of my case on Majiffy? Gawd!

It's important for me to sort you because your case can come from either alignment.

As scum it's the sort of case that makes you look busy (reading ISO's of old games) while not actually engaging active people discussing ongoing cases/wagons. It's picking an easy target way too early in the game because nobody can say you're wrong.

As town meta is a big part of what people look for... especially in d1 when many people feel lost.

Either way it's basically a combination of a meta read of 3 posts and activity read which are both things that are mostly NAI. People evolve and people get busy. If you're right it's just luck tbh. I honestly have no reason to say you're wrong nor do I have any reason to agree with you. I can only comment on how strong a case it is and I just did.

Fine. What is your opinion on my Majiffy case?

[DrewVa]

Okay I just found ths.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77288&start=25.

I was curious as to why Wisdom was voting Majiffy, so I ISO’d a towngame of his where his play was entirely different than it is here.

He has objectively speaking, the worst ISO in this game. There is 0 game content of any kind - which contrasts sharply with the game I’m linking.

so

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Majiffy

And what brought you to that game

I clicked his name and found this game and the difference between his play in that game is dramatically different than it it is here. Don’t you agree?

I caught scum!Marquis in BoD that way - through meta. It isn’t always obvious but the difference is definitely striking.

Honestly I feel it’s a bit early to make that conclusion but you do you.

Yes, that is a valid point that you and BEF have made. I think it should be a lot clearer soon. I didn’t sr him solely based on his ISO here, it was only when I saw the striking difference between his ISO here and that game but he might post like he did there, so we’ll see.

[DrewVa]

Ehhhh

Nancy using meta to vote someone is consistent with someone who thinks they deserve to be townread based on meta.

Who GAF about your read on me. What do you think of my case on Majiffy? Gawd!

It's important for me to sort you because your case can come from either alignment.

As scum it's the sort of case that makes you look busy (reading ISO's of old games) while not actually engaging active people discussing ongoing cases/wagons. It's picking an easy target way too early in the game because nobody can say you're wrong.

As town meta is a big part of what people look for... especially in d1 when many people feel lost.

Either way it's basically a combination of a meta read of 3 posts and activity read which are both things that are mostly NAI. People evolve and people get busy. If you're right it's just luck tbh. I honestly have no reason to say you're wrong nor do I have any reason to agree with you. I can only comment on how strong a case it is and I just did.

Fine. What is your opinion on my Majiffy case?

Okay nm but if his posting doesn’t change, I would argue that it’s a damned good case but as I said, we’ll see.

[DrewVa]

I just took Wisdom's vote on the slot as a placeholder. I'm not sure why you're running full throttle into not only thinking there's significance, but then basing it on meta, as if you need to justify your vote.

I don’t need to justify my vote.

You don’t think there’s any significance? Why not? *confused*

It has to be based on meta though, meta is the entire crux of what my read is based on. That’s the same basis I had, for shooting Marquis in BoD.

[DrewVa]

Nancy you dont really have a case on majiffy.

Why are you voting him then?

This post makes 0 sense coming from you.

[DrewVa]

My thoughts about this last 8 pages: the tinfoil hat is back, babyyyyyy. Wisdom and DrewVa's drama finishing with both voting the same slot seems staged. But I'll leave the tinfoil hat saved for later.

@Tails we have to talk sweetie. I would say profii is more likely scum for his list than town. Not because of the content (well that's something too) but because of the intention: big big game, scary game, you want to be active or seem to be 'cause lurking as scum is good strat and people could hunt you down for staying out of focus while someone else steals the show. profii said it himself. So let's say profii is scum and it's scared of a huge list of players who seems to know each other and know what they are doing. The best way to look busy is to create an early readlist and EXPLICITLY SAY "I'll reply to anyone who ask me about my reads" or something like that. So: profii doesn't create any content 'cause that's too risky. Instead, he waits for the rest to create content for him; if you ask, confront or agree with profii about one of his reads, you will give him the chance to look busy by replying whatever you say. That's the best way to stay engaged when engaging looks scary.

BuJaber and RR, followed closely by the blowfish, are my townreads so far.

I find it weird that this is the reason he “demotes” me on his list. Something weird is going on here with both Wisdom’s/Profil’s reactions to my vote.

[DrewVa]

Nancy you dont really have a case on majiffy.

Why are you voting him then?

This post makes 0 sense coming from you.

I almost want to revote you

Again, this also makes no sense.

It makes no sense because

YOU are freaking voting him!

Lemme get this straight. You voting Majiffy is fine but me voting there is scummy?

[DrewVa]

im saying you have no case
Not that you voting him is scummy
Youre way too defensive

Guilty conscience?

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Wisdom

Feel free to OMGUS me.

No way does town!you ever scumread me for this.

[DrewVa]

im saying you have no case
Not that you voting him is scummy
Youre way too defensive
Guilty conscience?

Nancy you dont really have a case on majiffy.

Why are you voting him then?

This post makes 0 sense coming from you.

I almost want to revote you

Nancy you dont really have a case on majiffy.

Because shes town
I doubt she can fake moonlogic so believably

gah i cant stand this backwards logic

VOTE: majiffy

Wisdom/Profil/Majiffy scum team?

[DrewVa]

VOTE: drewva

Your Majiffy vote seems like a distancing vote. Both you and Profil had really strange reactions to it.

Why else would you attempt to discredit a case I made, backing up

your

vote?

And when I call you out on that, I’m scum because of it? Tell me how you’re actually town here?

[DrewVa]

Do you really think a whole scumteam is gunning for you? Or is it just because they don't like you right now.

One of them definitely is. Explain a 180 from someone who’s vote I not only supported but strengthened.

Profil demoted me specifically because of it.

You don’t find anything at all suspicious about any of this?

[DrewVa]

Possibly.

How did you strengthen his vote? What was his case on Majiffy in the first place?

He never gave any reasons but I have never ever seen Wisdom attempt to discredit a case from.someone who had sheeped him - as any alignment and if I doubted my initial sr on him - due to his Majiffy vote seeming like a decent one to me - his suddenly sr me for it , after apparently tr me for being “moonlogicy” in his mind, makes 0 sense.

In what world, does town ever view questioning him about discrediting my case on

someone HE was voting

, scummy?

[DrewVa]

Possibly.

How did you strengthen his vote? What was his case on Majiffy in the first place?

Okay I just found ths.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77288&start=25.

I was curious as to why Wisdom was voting Majiffy, so I ISO’d a towngame of his where his play was entirely different than it is here.

He has objectively speaking, the worst ISO in this game. There is 0 game content of any kind - which contrasts sharply with the game I’m linking.

so

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Majiffy

P.edit Better link.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77288&user_select%5 ... &start=200

As contrasted with this: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77824&user_select%5B%5D=17371

I think this is scum, sheep me.

[DrewVa]

votecount

With 26 alive it takes 14 to lynch.

RCEnigma (3):	Thor665 (61),	BuJaber (262),	Tails (477),
BuJaber (3):	DrippingGoofball (609),	Varsoon (614),	Majiffy (631),
DrewVa (3):	BrightEyedFish (192),	Gamma Emerald (268),	Wisdom (652),
hebichan (2):	Reasonably Rational (57),	CheekyTeeky (69),
profii (2):	Fortian (111),	pinturicchio (450),
Wisdom (2):	hebichan (435),	DrewVa (651),
Majiffy (1):	Malakitty (42),
DrippingGoofball (1):	davesaz (56),
BrightEyedFish (1):	Alchemist21 (386),
Reasonably Rational (1):	profii (407),
CheekyTeeky (1):	farside (440),
Not voting (6):	Creature,	Toogeloo,	Chickadee,	Flavor Leaf (416),	RCEnigma (438),	Amzela (656),

(expired on 2018-12-04 02:30:00) remain.

Profii, why is RR your #1 scumread?

[DrewVa]

The amount of people SK-reading people is staggering.

Why do you care? Without any scum flips anybody scummy is scum. Only when groupscum flips you can then say something like "This guy is scummy but because of reason x he is not groupscum with flipped scum, he might be scum of a different faction or SK"

Even if you are right about someone being SK you are helping scum by pointing out 3p. You shouldn't care about SK at this stage. Scumhunt.

I can give you at least two examples where scum v SK ended up helping town that I witnessed myself. I'm sure most of you have examples also.

@Cerb - how shy is amz? At what point should we consider inactivity to be AI?.

Well, I was going to say that I'm not going to speak with her with regards to her activity/play/what you should expect from her, but it seems she showed up to say things.

@RR and anyone else who thinks they know:

What is your scum range? How would you characterize the difference between your town meta and scum meta?

It occurs to me that for someone like you (someone whose posts are kinda emotionless) the line becomes rather blurry.

But tails here claims you're already out of your scum range.

Yeah, Tails shouldn't actually have any idea of what my scum range is....BUT that's not what he said, I don't believe. He seems more certain that we're in our town range, than out of our scum range, which is a position he can have given that he *has* seen us as town. With that said, the actual answer to your question is: I'm fairly unaware of any difference between town meta and scum meta. I'm hyper-self-aware of my posting as both town and scum. I'm more likely to be sloppy and say something that will stir up shit I don't want to stir up as scum(that is, I'll probably review a post more before making it, and/or run controversial things by my partners/other head if hydraing) than I will as town, but I am still pretty damn aware of those things. It's sort of like as town I'll notice something while posting, and post it anyways because fuck it...while as scum I will probably still post it, but I might tweak/polish it a bit depending on feedback. Scum!me does a lot to actively help town solve the game(which is why I've been quite successful in my limited time as 3p here I imagine), and comes up with plans and shit to solve the game, the same way town me does...but those plans don't work because of information only scum are privy to, or because of fundamental flaws in reasoning that town is making that I don't correct, which I would correct as town.

So, honestly: The best way to tell if I'm out of my town range is probably to massively BoP me(if i'm engaged and paying attention) with regards to mechanical gamesolving things. There's always subjective bits to such discussions, like the fundamental setup spec someone has might be flawed in my opinion, but if everything mechanically seems to go a certain direction, and I'm not agreeing with a guaranteed win type scenario, that doesn't require assuming unproven things are true(because I will never simply accept that a mason pair is a mason pair, for example, until one flips/mod confirmation comes in some way or another), or I'm resistant about the evident flaws in a plan...then you might be looking at a scum!me.

Of course, to find that you need to be at least as good at finding mechanically optimal solutions to games as I am, and as good at arguing in favor of your purely logical position as I am, because otherwise it's unlikely you'll actually realize the path I'm leading town down doesn't actually work if assumption x y or z is incorrect, and I'm too certain those things are true....and there really aren't very many people I've played with(if any) who pair those two things as well as I do.

@Amz: Real talk though, Wisdom asked you a specific question about your read on DrewVa, and you ignored it. Why no response at all ,not even a "i'm too busy to actually have an opinion on them yet." All you did was back off the vote on Wisdom, but gave no content.

I'm pretty sure you're really just a bit lost right now, but I don't know if it's because you're completely clueless town or newbscum too afraid to actually push anything.

-Cerb

pedit: Right, Drewva's majiffy case thing, and the wisdom thing: 1) your repeated apparent assertion that because Wisdom was scum in the game he was linking, his point that you can't keep using a single game and the fallout as a way to dodge all negative interactions with him, is bullshit. The fact that he was scum does not change the fact that no, you actually can't keep hiding behind that. With regards to the Majiffy thing: I don't think I've played with Majiffy much, I haven't read the game you posted, nor will I, unless he gets to like L-1 and I need to make a hammer decision, but I really doubt the content generated in what, 36 hours, is enough to establish a firm read on whether he's behaving abnormally. Give it a few more days and if that trend holds, I can see it(which is why you probably shouldn't have pushed this so hard so quickly,b ecause now he's alerted to it!), but right now there simply isn't enough evidence that whatever is different about his play, if there is a difference, it's just static.

You’re probably right wrt Majiffy. I just found a towngame of his and was struck by the contrast. I’m unfortunately not strategic as town. Wrt to Wisdom, he quoted that post of him being scum in FH, so fair game for me to reference it, I think. However, Wisdom’s bizarre reactions to me today wrt to my casing Majaffy and him scumreading me for questioning him about him, is uberscummy to me. It makes no sense, unless he was distancing. Profii’s “demotion” of our slot - solely based on that is also strange.

Why this weird reaction from both Wisdom and Proffi, about my Majiffy vote?

[DrewVa]

Okay I just found ths.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77288&start=25.

I was curious as to why Wisdom was voting Majiffy, so I ISO’d a towngame of his where his play was entirely different than it is here.

He has objectively speaking, the worst ISO in this game. There is 0 game content of any kind - which contrasts sharply with the game I’m linking.

so

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Majiffy

P.edit Better link.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77288&user_select%5 ... &start=200

As contrasted with this: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77824&user_select%5B%5D=17371

I think this is scum, sheep me.

Oh you're trying to meta case me on a game where a bunch of Torontomeet people were playing. That's cute on its own because it's bad meta play. But sure, I'll bite. Why don't you check out how much I tried after Day 1 when everyone I wanted to play with replaced out?

I think you’re misreading my read on you that game. You were blatantly obvtown in that game. That was the basis of my metacase on you.

[DrewVa]

Possibly.

How did you strengthen his vote? What was his case on Majiffy in the first place?

He never gave any reasons but I have never ever seen Wisdom attempt to discredit a case from.someone who had sheeped him - as any alignment and if I doubted my initial sr on him - due to his Majiffy vote seeming like a decent one to me - his suddenly sr me for it , after apparently tr me for being “moonlogicy” in his mind, makes 0 sense.

In what world, does town ever view questioning him about discrediting my case on

someone HE was voting

, scummy?

When someone they think is scummy jumps on the wagon.

Nah, I’m not buying that. I can’t speak for Profii because I have 0 meta with thm but no freaking way does town!Wisdom ever scumread me for that. Why would he? I asked him a perfectly valid question. I sheeped his vote, found an obvtown game of Majiffy to strengthened iit and then he tells me I “have no case”? How does this making an iota of sense to you?

[DrewVa]

Yeah, Wisdom's reaction makes perfect sense to me. You're tunneling hard and not seing the issue with a clear head. I would say Wisdom has been pretty townie, but the tinfoil hat doesn't allow me to

I’ve played 6-7 games with him, so it doesn’t at all to me.

Pro-tip, as someone who has been blatantly fooled by Wisdom before, him seeming “obvtown” means absolutely nothing. He’s a very good player - especially as scum. If the worst hadn’t have gladiated him in Labrynth, town probably would have lost and he pulled the wool over everyone’s eyes in Forgotten Hourglass. Don’t ever underestimate him.

[DrewVa]

first of all im not even scumreading majiffy
My vote was there just because i wanted it to be there
But even if i was,

your

reasoning for

your

vote on him was crap. It doesn't mean shit that you were sheeping me.

You said that about Marquis too in BoD, iirc but even if you really believe this, why are you assuming I’m scum?

I know that this isn’t the first time you’ve seen me tunnel but you automatically assume I’m scum here. Why? What makes my tunnelling here scummy when you just thought I was just plain wrong, when I’ve done that in other games?

[DrewVa]

Yeah, Wisdom's reaction makes perfect sense to me. You're tunneling hard and not seing the issue with a clear head. I would say Wisdom has been pretty townie, but the tinfoil hat doesn't allow me to

I’ve played 6-7 games with him, so it doesn’t at all to me.

Pro-tip, as someone who has been blatantly fooled by Wisdom before, him seeming “obvtown” means absolutely nothing. He’s a very good player - especially as scum. If the worst hadn’t have gladiated him in Labrynth, town probably would have lost and he pulled the wool over everyone’s eyes in Forgotten Hourglass. Don’t ever underestimate him.

Pro-tip, almost all your reasoning is based on meta, and I don't give a flying f*** about meta unless I have no other choice. I said that Wisdom has been townie, not that I'm townreading him.

We can agree to disagree about meta but as long as I keep catching scum that way, I’ll continue to swear by it.

[DrewVa]

P.edit. Glad to hear that. Gun to head, I honestly don’t think he is town here. His read on me can’t be this bad. He has never misread me since Necromancer and he can throw a freaking fit over that all he likes. I don’t believe he suddenly can’t read me correctly.

[DrewVa]

The important bit is now when people start asking me questions as I will get a feel for what people like or don’t like about the list so yeah that’s kinda my plan - I’m pretty new to games with so many players so I’m kinda trying to draw some conversation my way to get involved

This is what I was quoting about profii, by the way.

Out of interest what do you make of Hebi who said the post prior to that was towny (where I forgot why I scum read wisdom)

Can you please link or quote it for me? Thanks.

[DrewVa]

We can agree to disagree about meta but as long as I keep catching scum that way, I’ll continue to swear by it.

Oh of course, you be you. Just wanted to note that I won't be helpful on that matter, if by any chance we are on the same team here.

It would be a total shock, if Wisdom was actually town here and I turned out to be his CoH Nero in this game.

[DrewVa]

Do you mean why did I vote RR from that list? I didn’t check the vote count and just guessed RR would have at least a vote or 2 on so I’d be joining at least some form of wagon

Im not sure I would call my list robust, I kinda just copy and pasted the player list and then went on each iso in a new tab, then cut and paste as soon as I spotted something

The important bit is now when people start asking me questions as I will get a feel for what people like or don’t like about the list so yeah that’s kinda my plan - I’m pretty new to games with so many players so I’m kinda trying to draw some conversation my way to get involved

This is genuinely the most towny post I've seen all game.

Also I'll ease up on creature till tomorrow.

VOTE: Wisdom

This one

I dunno. I didn’t agree with her Creature vote because I am completely null on him rn. Hebi is a player who gets wrongly scumread alot. In Minuet, I only realized she was scum. when her scumpal Mastina flipped, due to her weird vote on him, adamantly scumreading him for his claim. So, I’ve only played one game with scum!hebi and I haven’t seen a smoking gun like that here so far. I don’t have a clear read on her yet. Once we get some flips, her alignment should become easier to read. In BoR, I could tell immediately that she was obvtown, eventhough that wasn’t obvious to anyone else. I can’t parse her rn.

[DrewVa]

I was kinda asking Pint but feel free to chip in

What I will ask you about is that majiffy read you’ve given us - what do you think about BEF saying he only read a few posts before forming his own opinion on it?

Again, please link or quote. Thanks.

[DrewVa]

Okay I just found ths.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77288&start=25.

I was curious as to why Wisdom was voting Majiffy, so I ISO’d a towngame of his where his play was entirely different than it is here.

He has objectively speaking, the worst ISO in this game. There is 0 game content of any kind - which contrasts sharply with the game I’m linking.

so

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Majiffy

P.edit Better link.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77288&user_select%5 ... &start=200

As contrasted with this: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77824&user_select%5B%5D=17371

I think this is scum, sheep me.

Do I have to fucking retype this post in all caps or what? Is anyone going to bother to give me an opinion on this or what?

No one has told lme that my case is either bad or wrong, just keep taking shots at me without bothering to read it. I know why RC gets so frustrated in games now.

Radiantcowbells, that is.

Well to stay objective I only looked at his 1st 3 posts in that game and compared them with his 3 posts in this game. There might be something there later on down the ling but I don't think we have enough content from him here to compare play styles right now.

NM, I think I’ve found it.

[DrewVa]

I was kinda asking Pint but feel free to chip in

What I will ask you about is that majiffy read you’ve given us - what do you think about BEF saying he only read a few posts before forming his own opinion on it?

He didn’t say he has an opinion, according to what I quoted. All he said was that it was too soon to tell, based on lack of enough content in this game. Seeems reasonable to me. Gamma said pretty much the same thing, which is why I dialed down my tunnel.

[DrewVa]

that's the one - I guess BEF is saying he is trying to remain objective but by not finding out if your case has any merit is one way to do it I suppose

I don’t think he was doing that. Completely dismissing my case would be scummy, saying you need more info, seems fine to me.

If you read Majiffy’s posts in that game, you can see he is being super solvey and clearly trying to advance the gamestate.

I haven’t really seen him do that here yet.

[DrewVa]

@RR - I'm more of a read/gut player. I get carried away trying to solve who's who. Setup spec tends to be distracting. I usually only participate in the general numbers spec but stuff like which role makes sense in this game etc I feel is a bit of a waste of time for me. Maybe a general comment on overall balance between flipped roles and claims.

In overkill 1 we started to gel more after our initial disagreement/mutual scumread because the optimal lynches became pretty obvious. I was a little surprised that town wasn't even more in sync than we actually were.

Also massclaiming tends to force the town into a more systematic approach because of provable night actions and mechanical clears and all that jazz

I agree with this. A mass claim is definitely necessary before we get anywhere near LYLO.

[DrewVa]

Massclaim
more like
assclaim

I'm baking anti-mass claim mechanics into all my future setups BRB

Why do you dislike mass claims? I agree. they should never be done until later into the game but not at all?

I admit, I was very sore about that last game as I was about being copped but mass claiming can help town when you get closer to LYLO.

[DrewVa]

Massclaim is discouraged this game 'cause scum has fakeclaims made specially for them

3- This game most certainly canNot be broken by flavor-gaming or mass claiming. (I will still advise against the practice though)

4- If you didn't get it: All anti-Town players have been provided with proper fake claims.

I wonder if those fake claims involve flavour. He says no flavour gaming but I was able to help solve Labrynth based on the fake flavour connection between scum!Chick and scum!rando in that one.

Alright I see now how claiming anything just helps scum. :/

[DrewVa]

How many scum are we looking at

I almost want to revote you

So this is twice Wisdom has said and done things he does not do as town.
Town!Wisdom does not:
-ask shitty questions he knows he won't get an answer to
-announce that his read might be changing

Like I get some people don't like Nancy's case on Wisdom, but Nancy's case being unconvincing does not in fact make Wisdom town here. --D

[DrewVa]

P.edit, Obviously they involve fake flavours but does that necessarily mean that flavour gaming is impossible? Fake flavour probably has some connection to true flavour. Like scum!random was Jareth but his fake flavour was the wise man and Jareth had appeared previously in the guise of an owl.

[DrewVa]

I feel a bit bad now because I looked at my past games and I don't think I've played with scum!wisdom looking back...

At the same time this still feels a bit off from wisdom's town voice, but I'm not as certain now.

Do you think town!Wisdom automatically scumreads me, for something he’s seen me do numerous times as town?

[DrewVa]

Only if he's floundering in his role. Dangan Ronpa V3 mafia comes to mind.

Most of the time, probably not.

I was legit shocked at reading that. I thought him death tunnelling Nero was a fluke but he always says he can read Kokichi. Obviously not.

[DrewVa]

that's the one - I guess BEF is saying he is trying to remain objective but by not finding out if your case has any merit is one way to do it I suppose

I don’t think he was doing that. Completely dismissing my case would be scummy, saying you need more info, seems fine to me.

If you read Majiffy’s posts in that game, you can see he is being super solvey and clearly trying to advance the gamestate.

I haven’t really seen him do that here yet.

That's my point - it's scummy if Majiffy is actually scum, but if he is town, its a bad scum move - because if Majiffy is town, a scum player would need to leave the door open to perhaps mislynch that dude at some point - if they have already said nope town, then its gonna look bad if they jump on a wagon later or whatever.

So I'm saying there could be a world where Majiffy is town and BEF is leaving the door open to read Majiffy how it pleases him later.



Also - I am not sure how clear I was on your 'demotion' in my list - the reason i did it was because you were like under loads of pressure and then this random meta Majiffy case appears - like it came over as "hey guys i know you all wanna lynch me, but look I can find scum... here, this guy... and I've even found like a reason and everything... please leave me alone"

Some might say LAMIST for short.

What you suggest is definitely possible wrt BEF but not necessarily probable. Sometimes a cigar really is just a cigar lol. So, I should keep obsessing over votes on me and not try to scumhunt? How does that make any sense?

[DrewVa]

BEF, when you manage to get caught up, talk to me. I’m not discussing old posts.

Posts from 14 hours prior are "old posts"? You flew off the handle at like less than 25% of the votes needed to be lynched and demanded to be hard town read by people because you flew off the handle. Those will

NEVER

be "old posts" for as long as you remain alive in this game.

At this point if you actually

ARE

town, you should be trying to figure out how to get yourself night killed because you are a walking "Leave me till M/LYLO so you can win" sign for scum.

~D

Why would I try to get nightkilled? Sorry but that’s totally whacked. Not that I won’t but actually TRY to do that? What makes so sure that’s going to happen if I don’t? And according to what your proposing, you’ve just made a compelling case for scum NOT to try and kill me, so how do you think that’s even possible here?

At any rate, you have completely misconstrued what I meant by that. My thoughts on the gamestate keep changing, so how is it in anyway useful or helpful to comment on posts I’ve made and/or being referenced that no longer describe my most current thoughts/reads?

I do however want to clarify that I meant no disrespect to BEF with that comment. The same goes for my comments to Gamma earlier. I didn’t understand why he thought it “shady” to answer for my hydra partner and still don’t.

[DrewVa]

Clarification

This is a clarification on what is/is not bastard for me:

According to site meta roles such as

Godfather, Miller, Redirector, Lightning Rod, Nexus, Bus Driver, Jester, Lyncher.. etc

are

NOT BASTARD.

These roles exist on the wiki, and are to be reasonably expected to exist in non-normal games.

The same applies to several killing roles/mechanics. You didn't join a game titled "Overkill" and themed after Stallone expecting 1-2 kills per night, did you?

So, what is BASTARD?

1-

Bastard MODDING:

This includes telling a player they win with the Town when they don't, or telling them they are a Cop when they are a Serial Killer. This also applies to "hidden votes" (someone brought that up) as it would be me lying to the player and the whole game outside of reasonable expectations. (This doesn't apply to -say- Loved/hated modifiers since the player(s) are notified of them in their Role PM(s) already, plus the roles/modifiers are fairly expected).

2-

Bastard ROLES:

These include all alignment changing roles in mid-game. Cults, Saulus, Judas .. etc. are roles I would consider bastard because "switch sides", meaning the player could play actively towards a certain win con/objective only to find themselves flipping against what they had worked hard to achieve from the start. In a way, that IS a mod lie, or a hidden win con (they don't know if it will happen or not even if told they are a Judas or that there is a Cult in play)

In short: I guarantee there are no mod lies and no alignment switches in this game.

If jester and lyncher are not bastard, then why don’t more mods, have those roles? I hope to roll jester at some point.

[DrewVa]

danganronpa was my first game with kokichi

Okay then, I totally wasted my time with that.

[DrewVa]

Instead of reading the game from the start I'm just going to ISO skim people in alphabetical order. I've just finished Davesaz and this is where I'm at:

Town lean
Fish
Chick

Nullish/conflicted
BuJaber
Creature
Davesaz

Scum lean
Alchemist
Amzela

Alchemist you said that your post 366 explained your naked vote on Fish but that post seems to be talking more about Drewva than fish. Can you elaborate on your reads on both Fish and Drewva?

Amzela - what is your read on RR currently? I think you've implied you think they are town. Do you have reads on anyone, particularly those that have been pushing you?

Consider my list a bookmark until I can get more done.

No that post is definitely talking about Fish buddying up to Pint. The wagon could have been on anyone and it would still look the same.

DrewVa I’m null on. Seemed to me that the main reason Nancy got scumread was because of how she reacted to her wagon and then got mad when people questioned if her rage was genuine. I’m not disputing the idea that she could fake emotion as scum but on the other hand emotional people tend to get even more emotional when their feelings are doubted so I don’t see how the rage is something that can’t come from Town.

I never fake my emotions but I do get upset at being wrongly scumread. It particularly weirded me out to have had 3 votes on us, before I even had made a single post. I probably shouldn’t have gotten so upset considering I actually was scum in Overkill 1 and that just happens to be the nature of the beast. I lied about things that I’m telling the truth about here but it’s unreasonable for me to expect anyone who was in that game, to be able to tell the difference. \_0_/

[DrewVa]

BEF, when you manage to get caught up, talk to me. I’m not discussing old posts.

Posts from 14 hours prior are "old posts"? You flew off the handle at like less than 25% of the votes needed to be lynched and demanded to be hard town read by people because you flew off the handle. Those will

NEVER

be "old posts" for as long as you remain alive in this game.

At this point if you actually

ARE

town, you should be trying to figure out how to get yourself night killed because you are a walking "Leave me till M/LYLO so you can win" sign for scum.

~D

Why would I try to get nightkilled? Sorry but that’s totally whacked. Not that I won’t but actually TRY to do that? What makes so sure that’s going to happen if I don’t? And according to what your proposing, you’ve just made a compelling case for scum NOT to try and kill me, so how do you think that’s even possible here?

At any rate, you have completely misconstrued what I meant by that. My thoughts on the gamestate keep changing, so how is it in anyway useful or helpful to comment on posts I’ve made and/or being referenced that no longer describe my most current thoughts/reads?

I do however want to clarify that I meant no disrespect to BEF with that comment. The same goes for my comments to Gamma earlier. I didn’t understand why he thought it “shady” to answer for my hydra partner and still don’t.

I try to get nightkilled all the time as a VT - beats losing a power role or risking having me in LyLo - the problem is every time i do it, scum see right through it

I actually was in a game where I actively tried to do this. I was widely townread to some extent but not to the point of scum actually wanting to kill me.

[DrewVa]

@nancy - I'm not pro-massclaim.. I was talking to RR specifically about overkill 1 that's all. I agree with varsoon regarding this. I'd love to play in a mountainous also.

There was this awesome game, The Ditto, on MU awhile back. Creature was in it too. It had this really cool mechanic where scum had the option to kill a slot and replace into it. It was mountanous, flipless and obviously anonymous as well. Unfortunately, despite having an awesome setup, it tanked due to having the wrong playerlist.

On the upside, some of the acting - one scum hillariously impersonating another player - made it a fun read, despite that.

[DrewVa]

I disagree that Profii's list makes them town, but I do respect your interpretation. I would argue that a reads list such as that can look like "work" without actually having much effort put into it. And my initial scumread on Profii largely came from their early posts, particularly their first posts appearing to be an attempt to "fit in" rather than natural conversation, as well as their response to me. I do not have feelings as strong in regards to profii's later posts though.

I would think scum would try to make a more complete reads list. That would be looking like work too, but also look like a larger contribution. I didn't see that with profii's list.

I was in a game on MU and wrongly scumread Cheeky for making a complete readslist, early on D1. I think individual meta is probably a more useful indicator for that sort of thing.

[DrewVa]

But seriously, I hope RR is keeping track and seeing what I'm seeing.

This scares me.

Your boyfriend is mine! Mine! And you can never have him back!
Muwahahaha!
*Ahem*
Anyway, want to go a little deeper on that?

I will have you know that I am the most adorable tiny Asian chick you have ever seen and I will defeat you and win back my boy with the power of God, anime, and a moon prism.

But in all seriousness, RR just has a habit of scaring me when they see something and I don't. Nothing out of the normal, just typical fear.

~~
Re: @Cheeky, because I do like responding to people even though it's not my turn.

TIL:
1. It is almost impossible to get caught up and track everything and keep things organized.
2. Gut feeling has always worked for me anyways.

I have a feeling that Farside/Alonzo, FL, BrightEyedFish, and Toogeloo are town.
Farside/Alonzo - solving a lot
FL - vote's switched a bit, haven't completely flushed it out, but it's enough and the people I've seen aren't related enough, but it's a preemptive reading.
BEF - also seems to solve alot
Toog - not sure what a hammer does but he seems to be pretty distant and not throwing himself all around?

I feel that DrewVa is scum and that the whole thing with Nancy and Wisdom is staged (sorry Nancy, don't want to invalidate your feelings)
RR because of the original posting of BEF and the fact that I don't believe there was any explanation for the switch in techniques outside to throw people off and Cerb is way too rational to just fuck with people. At least in Mafia.
I was going to throw DrewVa's list from somewhere in the 300-400s as also there, but I have a bad feeling.

But I really, really have a bad feeling about Thor.

VOTE: Thor

~~

And nooooooooooooow... to be the newbie.

What is pocketing? And what is multiballing/singleballing?

Why is Thor scum here? I think I will probably anti-sheep any of your votes in this game.

~Nancy

[DrewVa]

Creature literally said he had a test today.

Same question for you. Do you think Wisdom is a good candidate to push right now?

Yup. Even more so after the multi/singleball comments.

Why does suggesting singleball make Wisdom more likely scum than town it 3p?

Could be third party. The way he was interacting made it feel like he could be hunting for opposing scum.

Wow, we are kind of mindmelding in this game. This would explain alot about Wisdom’s weirdness in this game.

[DrewVa]

I see, Tails who were your scumreads again?

You and Drewmba. Could be sold on Fishsticks. Everyone else is separated into likely town piles or don't care piles. I could jump on anyone in the don't care piles if you paid me enough.

What do you think about the 3p reads on wisdom?

Definitely scum somewhere in there. That's not a natural thought to come from town.

We are not scum here, Tails. I know I said the same think in Overkill 1 but this time, it’s actually true. I know, it’s pointless saying that and why but it’s still frustrating. :/

[DrewVa]

Not with that reaction. She wouldn't have backed off Wisdom earlier if that was the case.

It also depends on whether the mod gave the lyncher a player name or flavor name. Last game it was a flavor name.

No, this time I rolled town and if I’m extremely lucky, I might even be able to prove it.

[DrewVa]

I started to type Drewva, then thought of a Roomba. I thought it'd be funny, so I typed that instead.

Our original avatar was a tuba.

Spoiler:

[DrewVa]

Creature literally said he had a test today.

Same question for you. Do you think Wisdom is a good candidate to push right now?

Hey Pintu, I've been enjoying your posts and thought processes so far! But I am interested in why you imply to hebichan that Wisdom is not a good candidate to push.

I disagree that Profii's list makes them town, but I do respect your interpretation. I would argue that a reads list such as that can look like "work" without actually having much effort put into it. And my initial scumread on Profii largely came from their early posts, particularly their first posts appearing to be an attempt to "fit in" rather than natural conversation, as well as their response to me. I do not have feelings as strong in regards to profii's later posts though.

I would think scum would try to make a more complete reads list. That would be looking like work too, but also look like a larger contribution. I didn't see that with profii's list.

Fair point. I think that as either alignment, people will be limited by the amount of effort they want to put in. Whether they are town or scum, profii did not put extra effort beyond what the simple reads list post required (and fair enough tbh). I just don't see the reads list itself as all that relevant to profii's alignment.

gamma talk to us
any reads?

Meh probably not beyond what I’ve described
Given this is multiball barring A50 making a red herring, I’m favoring scumhunting over townhunting rn

Interestingly, we are more inclined to townhunt, but that could more be explained by different styles of play I suppose.

--

I do not explicitly townread profii yet, however I don't feel the same way that I did before.

Time for a new vote.

UNVOTE: profii
VOTE: Chickadee

Why Chick? Chick was scum in Labrynth and she just posted spam, pretty much.

[DrewVa]

RR made note that Thor was acting more like his scum self in that game, so maybe not? Also, I think we have a few more strong personalities in this game.

To be more exact, Drixx noted that Thor was being scummy because of some obvious insincere posting/BoP type posting on Thor's part, where he pushed things that he really should have known better than to push were he town. I haven't seen scum!thor outside of that game though, I don't believe, so this head at least can't say whether the rest of his play was in line with what we should expect from scum!thor.

With regards to having less presence than I did in Overkill 1...that might be accurate? I've been reading a lot while not at a PC, and haven't seen many things that needed to be commented on, so I just haven't bothered. *shrug*

-Cerb

pedit: If there's a mechanical way you can prove yourself as town, DrewVa, you shouldn't be hinting about it now. And if there ISN'T a mechanical way to prove yourself as town, there is no way to do so, which means by hinting at the existence of such a thing you've set expectations for your slot that you can't fulfill and guaranteed that you will be lynched at some point if the game goes on long enough.

I said specifically,

IF

, if I’m extremely lucky, I never said I could guarantee anything. Chances are good, our slot dies first, though. :/

Because this game started out so bad for us, otherwise I think I could have possibly had a significant impact on it.

[DrewVa]

I expect more activity from creature,

thor, RR

, CT.

Both Thor and RR have posted every day. Was there more you were expecting there? Were you expecting uber posting?

They both took a commanding role in overkill 1.
Granted Thor was SK so perhaps not the best comparison but I assume he was playing similar to how he would as town. I've never been SK just seems like the right way to play it.

We always take a commanding role, regardless of alignment. We don't always do it in the early parts of day one in a very large game. We also don't always ignore relatives in town for major holidays (I've had family over for a week already, for example).

Also ... we've already put out at least two solid rationales for why Hebichan and Drewva are looking quite bad from things they posted this game. I'm not sure how much more other people are "commanding" the game atm? I see a lot of people ignoring or hand waving away Hebichan's lying and by some bizarre twist of reasoning, nearly everyone seems to think Nancy's histrionics and circular reasoning are a reason to town read the Drewva hydra.

Not sure what more you want here bud. Maybe be a bit more specific?

~D

Happy Thanksgiving to all the {Insert correct terminology here}™

What is the scum motivation for hebi to have referenced Wisdom’s Dragon-something game?

[DrewVa]

P.edit Drixx, I think you’re being kind of mean to me here. Please stop it. Thanks.

[DrewVa]

RR made note that Thor was acting more like his scum self in that game, so maybe not? Also, I think we have a few more strong personalities in this game.

LOL. No. I flat out told the game that Thor was scum and Thor was scum. All you need to read Thor is experience playing against him if you are scum and he isn't. Modding a game he plays in will probably help also since you get the outside view. He's terrifying if you're scum and he's town but he has some really deep grooves he tends to stick to as well.

Also maybe I'm giving everyone a really high BoP here because I think somehow nobody else really saw it in OK1? It seems pretty straightforward to me though. He's a bit less active this game than I'd like, but the early trend seems very much town on him, if you're wondering. I still have him in the null stack in my mind though. Waiting to see something specific in his posting.

~D

I have no experience playing with town!Thor but I’m not currently seeing anything similar from him in this game, as compared with Overkill 1.

[DrewVa]

P.edit Drixx, I think you’re being kind of mean to me here. Please stop it. Thanks.

You're wrong. Mafia is a game of rhetoric. If you can't handle people

accurately

describing your posting/actions, then that's on you ... not on us/them. Only YOU can control your behavior. Trying to bully other people into pretending you are not doing the bad things you are doing is actually even

worse

than what you did in the first place. You need to engage in some self reflection, especially if you think that I, of all people, am having a personal go at you.

~D

No, YOU need to do that. I think you are a good person but are more often than not sometimes really insensitive. If you can’t be nice to me, just let Cerb talk to me then.

I never fake my emotions, so your mischaracterization of them is hurtful to me.

If you won’t stop this particular line of criticism or let Cerb deal with me, I will replace out. I’m not going to continue to put up with that.

[DrewVa]

Awww this is the part that I didn't miss from this place. Shut the hell up both of you and focus on the game. @Nancy I believe you when you say you're not faking your emotions, that has nothing to do with the game itself, you could be frustrated either as town or as scum. But Drixx is not saying the opposite

I know he’s not scumreading me based on that but that isn’t the point. I don’t appreciate him using terms like “histrionics” to describe my feelings. Yes, I am not suggesting that I should automatically be townread for that, only that my emotions are always genuine.

[DrewVa]

Awww this is the part that I didn't miss from this place. Shut the hell up both of you and

focus on the game.

@Nancy I believe you when you say you're not faking your emotions, that has nothing to do with the game itself, you could be frustrated either as town or as scum. But Drixx is not saying the opposite

That's what I'm doing mate. Nobody gets to make posts and then try and bully other people into ignoring those posts or pretending they don't exist. Nancy is basically saying this:

"I made bad posts. You aren't allowed to talk about them because it hurts my feelings."

That's just not acceptable. Trying to angle shoot and tell someone they are mean or bad or wrong for just talking about what exists is ridiculous and awful. I am not going out of my way to attack or even saying things unpleasantly here. At the same time, I'm simply not willing to pretend someone (anyone really; doesn't matter to me who it is) didn't do something because they drop ATE in the thread and threaten to replace out if I don't pretend they didn't say/do what they did.

I mean ... Tails waged a "You guys just hate me personally" campaign against Cerb and I in OK1 because he was dead to rights nailed as scum (and neither of us had any prior games with Tails, to our knowledge). People frequently try to make things "personal" on this site in order to try and claim that the person or people suspicious of them are really "out of bounds" because it's "personal" and "mean". It is also worth noting that I've been playing with scum!Nancy quite a lot in the past couple months (Hero's Wanted; Overkill 1 Serenity) and this kind of posting is spot on what she did in both those games.

Now ... as much as I abhor the idea of adults actually believing they are entitled to a "safe space" from WORDS ... and as much as I find that idea patently ridiculous in FORUM MAFIA, a game which gets notoriously heated and emotional at times and which can

ONLY BE PLAYED

through the use of words (formally: Rhetoric) ... I'm really not the type to go out of my way to poke at someone.


@Nancy - I assign a base line Burden of Proficiency to everyone. I also apply the same social contract to everyone. I'm not going to treat you any differently than someone else. This is a game, and if you cannot deal with the consequences of your posts and actions in the game, then I feel really bad about that but I'm not going to further handicap myself by trying to walk on egg shells with you. My sincere advice to you is that you find a way to avoid becoming that emotionally invested. Easier said than done, I know, but necessary not only for forum mafia, but also other endeavors. I sincerely hope you don't run yourself out of this game (because I see nobody else asking you to go or suggesting you should go or be forcibly removed or anything at all to do with you not continuing in fact), but I'm not going to just ignore your play. That is a short path to ruin for this kind of game. We might as well just roll dice and declare winners if we're going to ignore what people do when those same people then dislike the consequences of their words and actions.


That said: Nothing obligates you to keep being obsessed about it. Ignore it and post about other stuff. The only way you get beyond the impact of that earlier posting is to move on. I'm going to continue to be curious why so few people have engaged with it, either way, but that doesn't obligate you to obsess over it. You already responded to me pointing out that your earlier posts employed circular reasoning.

~D

P-Edit: The word histrionics means the following: "exaggerated dramatic behavior designed to attract attention." -- You certainly demonstrated exaggerated and dramatic behavior which attracted attention earlier when you were first at L-10 or so. Those words don't mean that you were not being genuine, and I haven't expressed any belief over whether or not you were. What I

did

do is point out that you employed circular reasoning; to wit:

P1: You should be able to hard townread me!
P2: I only overreact to votes when I'm town!

The problem is that you hadn't yet overreacted to the votes at the time the person you claimed should town read you for overreacting voted for you. It just goes in a circle. And you're quite smart enough to know that you have a reputation for dramatic posts when you are being voted ... so there's a legitimate concern when you employ circular reasoning demonstrating your clear awareness of your own meta.

I didn’t say my having genuine emotions makes me town and I am very serious, I will ignore your posts, if you continue to mischaracterize my emotions.

Fucking ignore me then and I will do the same for you. If will only speak to Cerb from now on, until you stop being such an ass to me here.

[DrewVa]

I know he’s not scumreading me based on that but that isn’t the point. I don’t appreciate him using terms like “histrionics” to describe my feelings. Yes, I am not suggesting that I should automatically be townread for that, only that my emotions are always genuine.

Maybe we understand differently the word "histrionic" in this context. What do you feel he's saying with that word? 'Cause, as far as I know, being histrionic is not intrinsically bad
p-edit: yeah RR defined histrionics as I know it is, and being dramatic is a personality treat, not a disorder or anything like that. My girlfriend is the most dramatic person I've ever known and it's fun, it's like living in a movie

He thinks just because this is a game, it somehow justifies him acting like a dick to me and it doesn’t. Scumreading me is a part of the game, abusing me isn’t and his most recent post is very close to bordering on that. If I wasn’t in a hydra, I would replace out over this but I made a commitment to DVa. A50 probably can’t do anything to stop it. I keep trying to as nicely as possible, to get through to him why his treatment of me is unacceptable and he just keeps doubling down and misconstruing what I’m saying. I never ever said, a single one of my posts were untouchable, only for him to stop being such a jerk to me.

Like there is a way to discuss my posts, without deliberately being an ass about it, is my point.

[DrewVa]

Why is Thor scum here? I think I will probably anti-sheep any of your votes in this game.

~Nancy

Outside of this:

RR made note that Thor was acting more like his scum self in that game, so maybe not? Also, I think we have a few more strong personalities in this game.

It's coming from early posts and his defensiveness, which I do believe got called out by Cheeky.

--
Sidenote, not game related, histrionic is not inherently bad but has been used historically as a way to invalidate the concerns/feelings/treatment of women. This comes from the Renaissance and hysteria has typically been used as an excuse to mark women as irrational and, therefore, inferior as it was said to be only related to the uterus. I believe that might be the reason why Nancy doesn't like the usage of the word, and though it may not inherently be offensive, it could be argued that it implies something.

I find the term insulting because it inherently implies, in an extremely disrespectful way, that my feelings are somehow fake and/or invalid and I’m not going to alllow him to further misconstrue my character by lumping me into some political movement that I have jack to do with. That part was the most insulting thing about hhis post. My demanding to be treated with respect=my endorsing some kind of radical political philosophy

.

Okay, I will ISO him but I think RR were referring to Overkill 1, where Thor was scum. He is a difficult player to sort based on meta but one of things I’ve seen him do as scum is deathtunnel people and I haven’t seen that from him yet. Not saying that is AI from him, only that I’ ve seen him do that as scum.

[DrewVa]

I know he’s not scumreading me based on that but that isn’t the point. I don’t appreciate him using terms like “histrionics” to describe my feelings. Yes, I am not suggesting that I should automatically be townread for that, only that my emotions are always genuine.

Maybe we understand differently the word "histrionic" in this context. What do you feel he's saying with that word? 'Cause, as far as I know, being histrionic is not intrinsically bad
p-edit: yeah RR defined histrionics as I know it is, and being dramatic is a personality treat, not a disorder or anything like that. My girlfriend is the most dramatic person I've ever known and it's fun, it's like living in a movie

He thinks just because this is a game, it somehow justifies him acting like a dick to me and it doesn’t. Scumreading me is a part of the game, abusing me isn’t and his most recent post is very close to bordering on that. If I wasn’t in a hydra, I would replace out over this but I made a commitment to DVa. A50 probably can’t do anything to stop it. I keep trying to as nicely as possible, to get through to him why his treatment of me is unacceptable and he just keeps doubling down and misconstruing what I’m saying. I never ever said, a single one of my posts were untouchable, only for him to stop being such a jerk to me.

Like there is a way to discuss my posts, without deliberately being an ass about it, is my point.

There's nothing inherently abusive in what my other head said, nor is he being a dick to you. He's certainly not being NICE to you, but he's not being a dick. There is nothing wrong or abusive with stating that he expects you, and everyone else ,to behave to a certain standard, and point out that you're not, in his opinion, living up to that standard. *shrug* If he were to say that there's something inherently flawed or otherwise wrong with you for not living up to that standard, I could see you viewing his statement as abusive, but given that he's expressing a fundamental opinion he has of your play in this game and not of your character, your reaction is out of proportion to the events that spurred it in you. I get that from your perspective, emotionally speaking, they are not, and he's treating you this way...but I'm informing you that from the perspective of at least *this* other person who isn't Drixx, you are taking things far too personally.

In addition, this entire exchange, except insofar as we find it more likely that you're engaging in scum theatre than being sincere, is irrelevant to the game of mafia. You obviously can't prove to us that you're being sincere, and thus your focus on attempting to do so is essentially a waste of your energy, while your expectation that we should automatically believe you while playing a game focused on uncovering deception is unreasonable.

With regards to the question of whether or not there is a way to discuss your posts without being a dick: Yes, there likely exists some way to do so, but considering how broad your definition of being a dick appears to be, I am uncertain if one could be critical of your posts without coming across as a dick to you.

-Cerb

How many times do I have to repeat that

I don’t expect to be townread for having genuine emotions

? I am getting really frustrated about this and I understand your defense of your hydra partner but yes, he is being a dick to me here, with that safe space bs.

If you honestly believe that I’m capable of faking my emotions as any alignment, there is nothing more I can say about that. I am not going to continue to engage that topic with you or anyone.

[DrewVa]

Also ... I find it amusing that I'm supposedly being awful by using words which mean what I mean to say and which are

also

an accurate description of your play ... but you see no problem in slinging names at me and presupposing that I have malicious intent. Pot ... meet Kettle. (In case it's not clear; we aren't kettles. Well ... can't speak for Cerb. I'm a tea cozy).

Also ... if I was actually trying to attack you personally you would certainly know it. Please trust me when I say this because if you push much further, I'm going to demonstrate. I don't pick fights in these games, but when someone starts attacking my personal character and slinging names at me, I

DO

take the gloves off and FINISH the fight. You have been warned. Continue with the name calling and personal attacks and you will find out what it looks like when I (Drixx) actually want to go after you.

I don't know any way to make myself more clear. Stop or don't cry when you provoke a response with intent.

~Drixx

P-Edit: A remarkably on spot post by Cerb there.

P-Edit^2: Are you serious? The word "Histrionic" is verboten because it's attached to some "radical political philosophy"? Or did you mean the NEXT post I made after you started calling me names and accusing me of attacking you personally because I used a word to describe your earlier ATE filled posts ... and that word was accurate ... and you tried to bully me and tell me that I can't have that opinion of your earlier posts ... because the WORD I used somehow hurt your feeling. I mean ... that's what "Safe Spaces" are right? A place where you get to tell someone they can't use certain words or have certain opinions because those words and opinions offend you? I haven't felt the need for such a space, so please feel free to tell me if I misunderstand the idea.

Because if I do NOT misunderstand the idea, I'm pretty sure it's a very accurate description of what you tried to do. You literally tried to bully me into ignoring bad play on your part because talking about it offended you.

I'm sorry you feel I was making some kind of political connection. That's on you. YOU made that comparison. I simply pointed out that trying to bully someone into silence is not okay and drew a comparison to make my point. I never mentioned politics. You did.

You are literally a thin thread away from me going back and quoting what I've already said and then posting how I would have said it if I want to have a go at you. Please stop.

I have a right to defend myself and tbf, I did try my best to do that nicely and you know that. All I am asking of you, is stop invalidating my feelings, not to townread me for having them and yes, that whole safe space thing you brought into it, did sound like a personal attack, even if you probably didn’t intend it as such. I am an individual and don’t appreciate having my extremely valid point being invalidated, by lumping me into some radical alt-left group.

I’m not interested in trading insults with you and I have 0 objection to either you or anyone else, thoroughly examining everyone of my posts, with a fine toothcomb. I think both you and Cerb may have conceivably misunderstood me wrt that. Ftr, I am completely fine with that. I would never even suggest - let alone attempt to “bully” anyone into ignoring anything I’ve said. Are we clear now? Yes?

[DrewVa]

*blushes* senpai noticed me

We gotta find you an avatar.

Also ... please elaborate on your suspicion that Cerb and I are scum. I need to see this thought process written down.

~D

P-Edit: Nope. Nancy decided to wade further into troubled waters and suggest I was making political statements ... after the bullying and name calling didn't browbeat me into silence and obedience.

I’m not trying to “bully” or “browbeat” anyone into “silence” or “obedience”. I just don’t want my feelings to be invalidated. *sigh*

[DrewVa]

RR made note that Thor was acting more like his scum self in that game, so maybe not? Also, I think we have a few more strong personalities in this game.

LOL. No. I flat out told the game that Thor was scum and Thor was scum. All you need to read Thor is experience playing against him if you are scum and he isn't. Modding a game he plays in will probably help also since you get the outside view. He's terrifying if you're scum and he's town but he has some really deep grooves he tends to stick to as well.

Also maybe I'm giving everyone a really high BoP here because I think somehow nobody else really saw it in OK1? It seems pretty straightforward to me though. He's a bit less active this game than I'd like, but the early trend seems very much town on him, if you're wondering. I still have him in the null stack in my mind though. Waiting to see something specific in his posting.

~D

@RR;Drixx, if we weren't in OK1, should we read OK1?

I know he’s not scumreading me based on that but that isn’t the point. I don’t appreciate him using terms like “histrionics” to describe my feelings. Yes, I am not suggesting that I should automatically be townread for that, only that my emotions are always genuine.

Maybe we understand differently the word "histrionic" in this context. What do you feel he's saying with that word? 'Cause, as far as I know, being histrionic is not intrinsically bad
p-edit: yeah RR defined histrionics as I know it is, and being dramatic is a personality treat, not a disorder or anything like that. My girlfriend is the most dramatic person I've ever known and it's fun, it's like living in a movie

He thinks just because this is a game, it somehow justifies him acting like a dick to me and it doesn’t. Scumreading me is a part of the game, abusing me isn’t and his most recent post is very close to bordering on that. If I wasn’t in a hydra, I would replace out over this but I made a commitment to DVa. A50 probably can’t do anything to stop it. I keep trying to as nicely as possible, to get through to him why his treatment of me is unacceptable and he just keeps doubling down and misconstruing what I’m saying. I never ever said, a single one of my posts were untouchable, only for him to stop being such a jerk to me.

Like there is a way to discuss my posts, without deliberately being an ass about it, is my point.

I personally don't read the abusiveness of the post, as Drixx was using histrionic in context of the descriptive word and he did make a point that we seem to be townreading you for those things. I don't think he was going after you necessarily but going after us for letting you all off the hook. And we have, to some extent.
(I don't trust you but the people you've both called out as Town/Scum are confusing me and I don't want to sort through that mess on Turkey Day.)
(Trust issues ftw)

Also RR;Drixx, this isn't just a game of rhetoric fite me.

That being said, I also heavily think that RR is scum, possibly due to knowing Cerb a little more and their original randomeness, and for you two to "seem to get into a genuine fight" is throwing me off and I am just confused. You do seem Town and I don't think scum would infight like that, unless this is an elaborate ploy to get us all confused.

Also @pintu I just realized that you're from Chile! Come up and eat turkey with us.

Also, I do not think this game is multiball and if so *throws hands up in the air and jumps out a window*.

I don't think you need to read OK1 if you weren't in it. People might keep referring to it though, given that a large part of this playerlist was in that game.

Okay Amzela, let's break down your reason for thinking we're scum.

1) We did a thing that you fail to see a town motivation for, in spite of us(or me, at least) explaining what the intent was.
2) ????
....

Does that about sum it up? If so, let's look at 1 then. Two lines here, we're either doing/did this change in play as a deliberate scum ploy, or a deliberate town one.

If it was a deliberate scum ploy, where's the scum motivation in changing our playstyle deliberately(you don't have experience with us, but you can ask Varsoon and...well, mainly Varsoon, I guess, how consistent our overall approach to the game has been historically regardless of alignment), ESPECIALLY considering that I(and we, together), have *NEVER* been lynched as scum prior to LYLO.

Never.

That is, our approach to the game, as scum, from our perspective, GUARANTEES we will make it to endgame.

Why change that?

Now, let's say it's a town ploy intended to do what we said we wanted it to do, namely, give us some reactions to use to gauge the alignment of those players who have experience with us in the game, but which you simply don't see as functioning that way.

Is it more likely that we chose to discard a very successful survival strategy as scum and draw this attention to ourselves, or that we sincerely believe that our methodology could help us in scumhunting?

-Cerb

@DrewVa: It inherently implies that what you're doing is *designed*. This is a game where people attempt AtE all the time. As a result, literally every time someone is emotional, there will be at least one person in the game who believes it's just AtE. That is something you will have to get used to if you want to continue playing mafia through this medium at least. It is unfortunate that people attempt emotional manipulation, but they do, and it prevents people from simply taking emotional displays at face value. Drixx's safe space comment was unnecessarily inflammatory, yes, but I believe it was a valid rhetorical tool to draw parallels between something those here would be familiar with, and what he perceived you to be doing: Attempting to insulate yourself from critical rhetoric through the use of an emotional outburst. One could do that as town to get some space to breathe, but it's more likely to be done *deliberately* by scum.

I am not trying to “insulate” myself from anything and yes, so sue me for getting overly upset when I perceive I I am being wrongly scumread for whatever reason. I told you before that I am well aware that ths a weakness of mine in games and I’m really trying to take it less personally. If that’s easy for you, then I envy you for it but it’s not at all for me. I’ve been trying to do this my entire life but no, I don’t think I should have to give up playing Mafia because of that. No player is perfect and there would be no games, if that was required.

[DrewVa]

So you believe that Drixx and I are "winding" DrewVa up? To what end?

you're either shading DrewVa up because she is pushing something that doesnt help your win con.

or if you are "winding DrewVa up" apparently to no end then it's just unpleasantness for unpleasantness' sake

VOTE: Reasonably Rational

Has DrewVa been successful at making anyone agree with them so far? No? So what would be the motivation for shading them, rather than letting them just continue digging the hole they were already busy with.

The second possiblity, of just winding her up for no reason, is, again, something that would be better accomplished by going after other individuals in the game; that is, if one assumes that we'd even do that, which we never have felt the urge to do in the past. *shrug* Obviously you can't assume that we're not doing it this time, but again, where's the scum motivation?

-Cerb

I keep saying over and over again, ad nauseum that I don’t expect to be townread for my emotional reactions. I also keep saying, that I am not trying to stop or prevent anyone from doing whatever’s necessary to obtain an accurate read on me. So what exactly do you think I’m trying to sell here, based on this? What agenda do you see me driving?

[DrewVa]

So you believe that Drixx and I are "winding" DrewVa up? To what end?

you're either shading DrewVa up because she is pushing something that doesnt help your win con.

or if you are "winding DrewVa up" apparently to no end then it's just unpleasantness for unpleasantness' sake

VOTE: Reasonably Rational

How is RR winding DrewVa up in the first place
Nancy was pretty high strung to start with

I don’t know if I’d characterize it as a “winding up” necessarily. All I did was politely ask Drixx to dial down the histrionics thing because I found it hurtful, then everything just blew up.

I just wanted him to stop doing that - and ONLY that. I didn’t see that as an unreasonable request at all and still don’t.

[DrewVa]

Just ate so so so much food. Turkey day is great, ya'll.

Anyway
RR doesn't make this play as scum, imo.
Also, Mafia is a game of rhetoric. You should expect that literally anything you post in the game thread is subject to speculation and doubt--if it bothers you that your earnest emotions can be interpreted as rhetorical posturing, maybe avoid games where that's literally a strategy.
I'm pretty much taking you both at face value regardless, for what it's worth;
Like I believe DrewVa is actually frustrated/feeling these ways
and I believe RR legitimately is finding issue with how DrewVa is playing
But like I said
I don't think either of their play is specifically attempting to manipulate others.

I wasn’t upset at having my emotional reactions questioned - it was the unnecessarily pejorative associations with the words he was using. It was - no pun intended - but overkill and with all due resect Varsoon, I have 0 intent of stopping playing games because others - including you - don’t think I have just cause to defend myself here. I have a total right to do that. I agree with you that Drixx wasn’t being scummy but VEHEMENTLY disagree with you that he was not out of line. He 100% was and I don’t see how insisting on having the respect that I or any other player is entitled to - including Drixx/RR - should prevent me from participating in any games. Basic civility is not incompatible with playing Mafia and I am disappointed with you for not seeing the rightness of my side in this.

I think it’s inherently possible that both RR heads have completely misunderstood the rightful basis of my objections to that - due to them - mostly Drixx, unfairly accusing me of attempting to “bully” anyone into not trying to sort me correctly.

I am advocating for being treated with basic respect here - nothing more, nothing less and I won’t ever back down from this stance. On my part, I shouldn’t have called Drixx names but I wasn’t getting through to him otherwise. I’m legit sad and disgusted with the entire thing. All Drixx needed to do, was to apologize for his insensitive, poor choice of wording, while continuing to maintain his reasonable position of my not being defacto townread for my emotional reactions. Had he just done this, none of this hideous garbage would even had occured.

[DrewVa]

^ And by that, I mean dishonest manipulation. Like, yes, obviously, both are trying to convince others of their viewpoint, but neither has a dishonest viewpoint imo

P-EDIT:
Yeah I literally said on page 1 that RCE was my scum partner, guess no one takes RVS posts seriously
whoops I'm doing that trust-tell thing again

Agree, except for the part about my being wrong and not playing games because of that. Otherwise, I agree with you.

I don’t think Drixx initially intended to be hurtful but when I pointed it out to him, he should have stopped it and no one is going to stop me from playing any game because I won’t be a doormat. That will never happen.

[DrewVa]

drixx was not out of line. You just misunderstood 99% of what he said as you usually do

I wouldn’t expect you to ever understand and I still don’t trust you in this game ftr.

[DrewVa]

Like what posts/words?
I'll be honest, I glazed through the last 7 pages in catchup pretty hard
Don't mean any disrespect or anything on my end
Just want you to be hard aware that people will for sure misread emotion in this game and will hard misread emotional response as rhetorical manipulation.
It's probably not accurate to call it 'bullying' or something like 'emotional browbeating' but yeah.

That’s perfectly fine but he went

overboard

. He wasn’t the only one accusing me of this but I didn’t freak out on Tails, did I? No because he didn’t express it in a way I viewed as disrespectful.

Sorry, I have had people all my life play the “over sensitive” card with me, so I probably did overreact somewhat. But I also don’t think it’s fair for me to have to seriously have to consider replacing out because I feel attacked/disrepected - whether or not it was intended. That’s why I first asked nicely. I stupidly expected RR to get it. Obviously that didn’t happen. :/

[DrewVa]

P.edit Drixx, I think you’re being kind of mean to me here. Please stop it. Thanks.

If I'm reading correctly, the above ^ is a response to the below

I expect more activity from creature,

thor, RR

, CT.

Both Thor and RR have posted every day. Was there more you were expecting there? Were you expecting uber posting?

They both took a commanding role in overkill 1.
Granted Thor was SK so perhaps not the best comparison but I assume he was playing similar to how he would as town. I've never been SK just seems like the right way to play it.

We always take a commanding role, regardless of alignment. We don't always do it in the early parts of day one in a very large game. We also don't always ignore relatives in town for major holidays (I've had family over for a week already, for example).

Also ... we've already put out at least two solid rationales for why Hebichan and Drewva are looking quite bad from things they posted this game. I'm not sure how much more other people are "commanding" the game atm? I see a lot of people ignoring or hand waving away Hebichan's lying and by some bizarre twist of reasoning, nearly everyone seems to think Nancy's histrionics and circular reasoning are a reason to town read the Drewva hydra.

Not sure what more you want here bud. Maybe be a bit more specific?

~D

Happy Thanksgiving to all the {Insert correct terminology here}™

I don't really get what's mean about this post.

I didn’t appreciate the term, “histrionics”. I found it disrespectful. Again, overkill. Gamma’s “high strung” OTOH isn’t. Do you see my point yet?

[DrewVa]

And the correct terminology is

Pilgrims

P-EDIT:
Ditto. I don't think you should stop playing games either, just be aware that people will interpret genuine expression as rhetorical manipulation a lot.
I've gotten mad frustrated with games and literally scoffed at and told to stop AtE'ing tons. It's wild out there.
I still think you should keep playin and I still value you a ton as a player <3

P-P-EDIT:
The previous was for RR, then Nancy; this Post-Preview-Edit is for RCE;
I've moderated like 90% of the games RR's played on-site, I think. I even helped build and spectated Overkill 1. If anyone's cognizant of RR's meta, it's me. A lot of stuff here points to RR's town rhetoric, but a lot of the play is very meta-contrary regardless of alignment, if that makes sense. Cerb-head already spoke towards being aware of this and seeing if people would catch on, so there's a bit of WIFOM there regardless.
Tbh, kinda hoping that they just get killed so I don't have to sort them but their play will make their alignment real evident in time--I've got em as town (possible third party) for now, but I don't see this play as coming from scum RR whatsoever.

Thanks. <3 I hope you feel better. I think I’m locking you and Fort as town for now. I also think RR is wrong about hebi. I don’t see scum!hebi referencing that Wisdom game. I think DVa is wrong about FL being an SK, I don’t have a strong read on him but nothing pinging so far. I think Pint/Tails might be town. Gamma also likely town. Only really have 2 possible scumreads so far: Wisdom/Majiffy.

Obviously with 26 players in this game, most are fooling me or are under the radar.

I think Azalea might also be town. She just seems really genuine in her posts. Hopefully my reads will get better as the game progresses.

[DrewVa]

DrewVa, here's the thing;
RR was scumreading your slot for their reasons
You asked them to stop being mean, which I believe they took as 'stop pushing a scumread on me because it is mean to do so' rather than 'stop using such aggressive rhetoric it bothers me'
So Drixx, who has a huge problem with people leveraging AtE like that, doubled down on that stance.
At least that's what I've taken from it, if that makes sense.

+1

Yes, exactly. You need to be the Drixx whisperer.

Except that I would substitute “aggressive” with “hurtful” or “disrespectful”.

- even if it wasn’t intended as such.

[DrewVa]

DrewVa, here's the thing;
RR was scumreading your slot for their reasons
You asked them to stop being mean, which I believe they took as 'stop pushing a scumread on me because it is mean to do so' rather than 'stop using such aggressive rhetoric it bothers me'
So Drixx, who has a huge problem with people leveraging AtE like that, doubled down on that stance.
At least that's what I've taken from it, if that makes sense.

This is where I stand, too. I understand 100% you Nancy and validate that feeling, but looked from the outside of the conflict, it doesn't feel like Drixx crossed any line; seems like you got it like a personal attack before he could even know what was going on with you.

That being said, seems like you feel a little better now, or at least that's what I get with your last replies. Could we all keep the game going? If anyone wants to talk about the conflict in order to catch scum, no problem, but keep talking about the conflict for the sake of it is not healthy.

Not at that point, it was in his reaction to my request where the real line crossing took place. Particularly the “safe space” comments but I find that word disrespectful and insulting to me and I’ve already explained why - countless upon countless times, only to get accused of being some kind of “bully” because I legit found having my feelings pejoratively labelled as “histrionics” disrespectful. And if RR want to persist in misreading as some fascist because of this, that’s on them.

If I’m seriously at the point in any game, where another player’s words are seriously causing me to consider replacing out, I have to say something. I don’t think it’s fair, that should be my only alternative to getting it to stop. Why should I feel pushed out of a game - even if that was never intended to be the case but I absolutely did feel that way, when he kept persisting with it, despite my objections.

[DrewVa]

I tend to infer bullying a lot harder as a situation where intimidation (and often social dynamics) are involved--but that's more from the PoV of an educator where the sort of bullying I deal with manifests as social and physical bullying.

Being like "Your rhetorical aggressiveness makes me uncomfortable to the point of wanting to replace out" comes off far less like bullying to me. It's not so much of a taking-the-ball-and-going home thing since the game can continue with a replacement and replacing out for personal reasons (such as feeling emotionally compromised from playing to wincon) are perfectly valid. I don't really see DrewVa's move to replace out as a threat so much as an actual indicator that your rhetoric is legitimately making them consider replacing out.

P-EDIT: That's what I'm saying. Profii's not confident enough to not spill the WINE.

P-P-EDIT: Day should continue but thread will lock so a flip can be posted and VC should reset.

Yes, I would never have said anything otherwise. I extremely dislike the kind of attention this whole thing has put on me. I wasn’t considering replacing out at the time, Drixx used the term, “hysterics” but I was bothered enough to realize I needed to be pro-active and try to nip it in the bud. The replacing out part happened, when he persisted with it. I don’t know how to deal with that. If I say to someone, please stop whatever, it’s really making me uncomfortable and they not only persist with it but even double down, it legit sends me into a panic - and yes there are very good reasons for that - nothing game-related. So that and that alone - was where the boundary crossing took place - when he made it clear that he didn’t GAF how his words were affecting me.

[DrewVa]

Oh god please let it just be this page that you people are garbaging with your irrelevant posts. Drewva needs to get over themselves and is probably scum because Nancy pulled the same AtE garbage on me last game. Anyway sifting through more isos now.

That is a complete lie. When did I ever threaten to replace out because of what you or anyone else said? Find me the quotes. I’m waiting.

[DrewVa]

I tend to infer bullying a lot harder as a situation where intimidation (and often social dynamics) are involved--but that's more from the PoV of an educator where the sort of bullying I deal with manifests as social and physical bullying.

Being like "Your rhetorical aggressiveness makes me uncomfortable to the point of wanting to replace out" comes off far less like bullying to me. It's not so much of a taking-the-ball-and-going home thing since the game can continue with a replacement and replacing out for personal reasons (such as feeling emotionally compromised from playing to wincon) are perfectly valid. I don't really see DrewVa's move to replace out as a threat so much as an actual indicator that your rhetoric is legitimately making them consider replacing out.

P-EDIT: That's what I'm saying. Profii's not confident enough to not spill the WINE.

P-P-EDIT: Day should continue but thread will lock so a flip can be posted and VC should reset.

Yes, I would never have said anything otherwise. I extremely dislike the kind of attention this whole thing has put on me. I wasn’t considering replacing out at the time, Drixx used the term, “hysterics” but I was bothered enough to realize I needed to be pro-active and try to nip it in the bud. The replacing out part happened, when he persisted with it. I don’t know how to deal with that. If I say to someone, please stop whatever, it’s really making me uncomfortable and they not only persist with it but even double down, it legit sends me into a panic - and yes there are very good reasons for that - nothing game-related. So that and that alone - was where the boundary crossing took place - when he made it clear that he didn’t GAF how his words were affecting me.

This post summarises my whole thought on the process - IMO it was more than obvious we were heading i this direction and I didn’t want to say shut up Drixz you’re being a dick (well I did)

So I just voted


Anyway, if I’m dead or not I’ll move on now...

I would like to think that scum!RR would have more integrity than to play that way. I just don’t think they would compromise their ethics like this, just to win a game. I’ve never played with scum!RR before but it takes a certain kind of character to do what you’re suggesting as scum and while RR may be wrong-headed and obtuse about how Drixx’s behaviour was affecting me, I think it’s a bit of a reach to think they’d be actually capable of being that well “evil” as scum. I mean anything is fair in a game, so long as it doesn’t violate the rules but I have trouble see either of the heads as ethically capable of something so low.

[DrewVa]

Btw I’m about to head off but if Varsoon is not a day vig then we should lynch him - will explain when I arrive and can get access to a keyboard... 110 miles to go do couple hours

Varsoon is one of my strongest townreads in this game. Other than an actual cop guilty or whatever, I am never voting him.

I can give you a link to BoR where he was scum. He played quite differently in that game.

However, I think you might also be town. I don’t think scum pulls this sort of gambit.

[DrewVa]

Oh god please let it just be this page that you people are garbaging with your irrelevant posts. Drewva needs to get over themselves and is probably scum because

Nancy pulled the same AtE garbage on me last game

. Anyway sifting through more isos now.

That is a complete lie. When did I ever threaten to replace out because of what you or anyone else said? Find me the quotes. I’m waiting.

Yeah let's not interact for the remainder of the game, you really push my buttons.

You’re response to me seems really over the top.

You said I did the same thing in Overkill 1 as I’m doing here. When I ask you to back it up, you conveniently pull this?

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Cheeky

[DrewVa]

Oh god please let it just be this page that you people are garbaging with your irrelevant posts. Drewva needs to get over themselves and is probably scum because Nancy pulled the same AtE garbage on me last game. Anyway sifting through more isos now.

That is a complete lie. When did I ever threaten to replace out because of what you or anyone else said? Find me the quotes. I’m waiting.

Here you go:

If you won’t stop this particular line of criticism or let Cerb deal with me, I will replace out. I’m not going to continue to put up with that.

This is a pretty clear ultimatum by you. You threatened that if I didn't do the following things:

1.) Stop criticizing your earlier posts for being circular reasoning and appearing to attempt to leverage meta and emotion into a town read (And I proved this already by quoting you, so stop lying and forcing me to quote your own posts back to you please).

2.) Stop talking to you at all

With the penalty for me refusing to do those things given as: "I will replace out."

Nothing I've said to you has been anywhere even

close

to the line. I've consistently addressed what you are saying and doing and made no commentary about YOU except to call you friend and let you know that I am absolutely not going after you personally. I even offered to show you a place where someone provoked me into going after them which would be me bringing up something uncomfortable and unpleasant and bringing attention to it solely so that you can feel better knowing that I really and legitimately am just talking about what you are SAYING and DOING and making no statements about you personally.

Because ... Mafia is a game of rhetoric and, at least on this site, many people use emotion as a battering ram to leverage people. I simply don't try to make people feel bad and while a game goes on I'm not going to allow any appeals to emotion, no matter whether or not I believe they are completely genuine and sincere, impact me. Too many people have taken advantage of making things "personal" for gain.


And yes ... I do believe that making a scene and threatening to replace out absolutely is browbeating and bullying. You are putting social pressure on me to shut up and stop calling attention to your behavior. If I give in to that pressure, then the heat comes off you and you have successfully used some arbitrary "You offended me" statement to leverage your way out of the hole you dug for yourself. If I don't (which I simply don't submit to that kind of pressure; I think it's really bad form and so I will always always always double down when presented with it), then you make a further scene and replace out, which I view as an attempt to get people to take sides.

It's really quite dramatic. Which is ironic.

~D

P-Edit: You really think you're some kind of clean and innocent dove here Nancy? You've slung the following personal attacks, at the least: Jerk, ass(hole?), wrong-headed, obtuse. All of them are PERSONAL CHARACTER JUDGMENTS. In contrast, I've been very careful to interact with your behavior without casting stones at you. A large part of that is the benefit of the doubt. I've only really seen you as scum that I can recall, so I am basically just assuming you are scum here and you don't actually behave this way all the time.

I'm sorry but you're just flat out wrong. I'm well on the right side of the written rules and the spirit of those rules. You are the one who is way over the line and you need to stop. I'm seriously losing my patience with your behavior. This is three

consecutive

games now where you have pulled this kind of behavior. Furthermore ... you need to adult a bit and take ownership of your reactions. I have no control over how you take things and you are literally putting an absurd burden of politeness on me. I couldn't possibly be critical of your play and meet the standard you are trying to set.

I'm not trying to be mean here but you need to hear these two things badly:

1.) If you really cannot handle people suspecting you and being critical of your PLAY, then you probably need to work on that. I don't know any nicer way to say this and know that you'll understand.

2.) If your slot is scum, I am absolutely going to report you after this game. That would make 3 consecutive games that you were in with me where you were scum and used dirty emotional manipulation to further your win con, including personal attacks in each game. That's not okay.

Um Drixx, my response to Cheeky was requesting she back up her bs accusation from Overkill 1, not THIS game. I’m sorry if I hurt your feelings, I tried to get through to you and you wouldn’t listen. I am not scum and you were really freaking me out. When someone begs you to stop doing something that’s legit hurting them - irrespective whether or not you think their reaction makes sense to you, you need to stop and consider if there was a less upsetting way to get that same point across. If you want to discuss it sometime PRIVATELY post-game, I guarantee I can make you understand but it’s not something I care to get into here.

[DrewVa]

Zzz. This is an exact repeat of last game. You misunderstand me, get nasty and make me back off just by flipping everything on me. I'm sorry you rolled scum/SK again.

VOTE: DrewVa

How am I being nasty? You shade me suspiciously and when I ask you to back that up, you freak out about it. You accused me of doing the exact same thing in this game as in the last one. If you find me proof, I’ll take my vote off of you. I’m not upset with you at all, I just think you might have rolled scum here.

[DrewVa]

@DrewVA: How's Cheeky's suggestion of not interacting with you because you push her buttons different from your suggestion that Drixx not interact with you because Drixx pushes your buttons?

Because all I did was ask her to back up her accusation. Her reaction seemed over the top and seemed like she was backing off, so she didn’t have to answer my question.

She said I was doing the same thing here as in last game. That is not true at all, so I asked her to back up her accusation. It just seemed very convenient of her to just throw shade at me, then hide.

[DrewVa]

Maybe AtE is the wrong term - more like emotionally manipulative.

Did I ever threaten to replace out in that game, specifically because of what another player was saying to me? That’s what your post seem to be suggesting.

[DrewVa]

Zzz. This is an exact repeat of last game. You misunderstand me, get nasty and make me back off just by flipping everything on me. I'm sorry you rolled scum/SK again.

VOTE: DrewVa

How am I being nasty? You shade me suspiciously and when I ask you to back that up, you freak out about it. You accused me of doing the exact same thing in this game as in the last one. If you find me proof, I’ll take my vote off of you. I’m not upset with you at all, I just think you might have rolled scum here.

Why is your read on her controlled by whether or not she finds prood that satisfies you?
-Cerb

It just seemed weird to me that she shades me and as soon as I ask for evidence, she tells me “I push her buttons” and that we should ignore each other. Like why wouldn’t she think I would ask her to backup what she’s saying? I would if the situation was reversed. Her being upset at me and calling me “nasty” is also dafuq? Drixx saying that to me isn’t scummy but Cheeky OTOH, absolutely.

[DrewVa]

Oh god please let it just be this page that you people are garbaging with your irrelevant posts. Drewva needs to get over themselves and is probably scum because Nancy pulled the same AtE garbage on me last game. Anyway sifting through more isos now.

That is a complete lie. When did I ever threaten to replace out because of what you or anyone else said? Find me the quotes. I’m waiting.

Here you go:

If you won’t stop this particular line of criticism or let Cerb deal with me, I will replace out. I’m not going to continue to put up with that.

This is a pretty clear ultimatum by you. You threatened that if I didn't do the following things:

1.) Stop criticizing your earlier posts for being circular reasoning and appearing to attempt to leverage meta and emotion into a town read (And I proved this already by quoting you, so stop lying and forcing me to quote your own posts back to you please).

2.) Stop talking to you at all

With the penalty for me refusing to do those things given as: "I will replace out."

Nothing I've said to you has been anywhere even

close

to the line. I've consistently addressed what you are saying and doing and made no commentary about YOU except to call you friend and let you know that I am absolutely not going after you personally. I even offered to show you a place where someone provoked me into going after them which would be me bringing up something uncomfortable and unpleasant and bringing attention to it solely so that you can feel better knowing that I really and legitimately am just talking about what you are SAYING and DOING and making no statements about you personally.

Because ... Mafia is a game of rhetoric and, at least on this site, many people use emotion as a battering ram to leverage people. I simply don't try to make people feel bad and while a game goes on I'm not going to allow any appeals to emotion, no matter whether or not I believe they are completely genuine and sincere, impact me. Too many people have taken advantage of making things "personal" for gain.


And yes ... I do believe that making a scene and threatening to replace out absolutely is browbeating and bullying. You are putting social pressure on me to shut up and stop calling attention to your behavior. If I give in to that pressure, then the heat comes off you and you have successfully used some arbitrary "You offended me" statement to leverage your way out of the hole you dug for yourself. If I don't (which I simply don't submit to that kind of pressure; I think it's really bad form and so I will always always always double down when presented with it), then you make a further scene and replace out, which I view as an attempt to get people to take sides.

It's really quite dramatic. Which is ironic.

~D

P-Edit: You really think you're some kind of clean and innocent dove here Nancy? You've slung the following personal attacks, at the least: Jerk, ass(hole?), wrong-headed, obtuse. All of them are PERSONAL CHARACTER JUDGMENTS. In contrast, I've been very careful to interact with your behavior without casting stones at you. A large part of that is the benefit of the doubt. I've only really seen you as scum that I can recall, so I am basically just assuming you are scum here and you don't actually behave this way all the time.

I'm sorry but you're just flat out wrong. I'm well on the right side of the written rules and the spirit of those rules. You are the one who is way over the line and you need to stop. I'm seriously losing my patience with your behavior. This is three

consecutive

games now where you have pulled this kind of behavior. Furthermore ... you need to adult a bit and take ownership of your reactions. I have no control over how you take things and you are literally putting an absurd burden of politeness on me. I couldn't possibly be critical of your play and meet the standard you are trying to set.

I'm not trying to be mean here but you need to hear these two things badly:

1.) If you really cannot handle people suspecting you and being critical of your PLAY, then you probably need to work on that. I don't know any nicer way to say this and know that you'll understand.

2.) If your slot is scum, I am absolutely going to report you after this game. That would make 3 consecutive games that you were in with me where you were scum and used dirty emotional manipulation to further your win con, including personal attacks in each game. That's not okay.

Um Drixx, my response to Cheeky was requesting she back up her bs accusation from Overkill 1, not THIS game. I’m sorry if I hurt your feelings, I tried to get through to you and you wouldn’t listen. I am not scum and you were really freaking me out. When someone begs you to stop doing something that’s legit hurting them - irrespective whether or not you think their reaction makes sense to you, you need to stop and consider if there was a less upsetting way to get that same point across. If you want to discuss it sometime PRIVATELY post-game, I guarantee I can make you understand but it’s not something I care to get into here.

I'd be happy to talk after game. I'm sure A50 would make a PT for us and make sure we don't go off the rails.

What I really need you to understand in the time between now and then is this: You are setting way to wide and unreasonable an expectation. Sometimes people will say something that impacts you in an unusually hard manner which they cannot anticipate. You have said that's what happened here. Also please notice that I haven't gone back to the two specific things you pointed out since you pointed them out. The line, for me, is the actual things that I know will inflict hurt for no good reason (and there's few to no good reasons to hurt someone over a forum mafia game). That's the line. You can't block off entire portions of a game because something tangential to them was uncomfortable.

Obviously I don't go around trying to hurt people. Anyone who has played with me or talked to me at all will vouch. I view personal attacks as a measure of absolute last resort, and then only to get someone's attention. They serve no other useful function. Nobody gains a benefit from it.

Anyway ... I think we're reasonably well of the same viewpoint here. We understand one another and can continue and work it out after the game.

Now ... back to our regularly schedule massacre of the scums.

~D

I see that. Based on what limited interactions I’ve had with either of you, I don’t think you’d ever do anything like that as scum. Most people wouldn’t I think, however I have encountered some really mean scum. Yeah, there are certain lines I would never cross to win a game and I am truly sorry for what I said. I just didn’t know how to deal with it. I really need to work on this. I know I need to find a better way of dealing with being upset in games. Anyway, we don’t need a PT, we can also talk on Discord if you have it.

I’m really glad we resolved this.

[DrewVa]

I’m not upset with you at all, I just think you might have rolled scum here.

Well I'm town and I could be misreading your tone but I feel like you're purposefully trying to wind me up because you know you'll get a reaction. Like you jumped to the conclusion I'm lying and calling my read bs instead of trying to understand where I'm coming from which frustrates the shizz out of me.

How am I trying to wind you up? I just didn’t think what happening between me and Drixx, was at all similar to anything that happened last game and true, I was kind of being a bitch to you in that game. I could tell you were upset about Tails. So, maybe I shouldn’t be a hypocrite here and claim to take the high road as scum but I wouldn’t react the way I did to Drixx for scumreading me. In Heroes, I flipped out at Tora - not for scumreading me but for something he said about another player’s comments to me in a different game, that resulted in my choking and getting mislynched.

I just wondered why you responded with the pushing buttons comment. So, maybe I misunderstood? I guess it’s fair that it’s not unreasonable of you to misread me in this game.

UNVOTE:

[DrewVa]

I checked this out. Grace is Sly’s gf from Daylight and since if my role is any indication, both role and character are directly connected. If this is a valid crumb, Creature could possibly be town.

[DrewVa]

Idk maybe I am gonna die if Varsoon isn’t relenting on his day vig claim.

Play nice without me

If he shot you for realz, is that even possible?

[DrewVa]

I checked this out. Grace is Sly’s gf from Daylight and since if my role is any indication, both role and character are directly connected. If this is a valid crumb, Creature could possibly be town.

That's a really good catch although how do the fakeclaims play into this? I'd expect scum to hide behind a fakeclaim from the outset.

I am not familiar with this film and it really isn’t clear from the Wikipedia description, the character names of the villains, so anyone familiar with this film, might be able to shed some light on this.

[DrewVa]

Yeah profii your vote is bad and you should feel bad
Anyway

Daykill : Profii

Hasta la vista baby

This feels like TMI.

I’m a cop you idiot

I thought she was referring to Alonzo’s post.

[DrewVa]

Massclaim is discouraged this game 'cause scum has fakeclaims made specially for them

3- This game most certainly canNot be broken by flavor-gaming or mass claiming. (I will still advise against the practice though)

4- If you didn't get it: All anti-Town players have been provided with proper fake claims.

I wonder if those fake claims involve flavour.

He says no flavour gaming but I was able to help solve Labrynth based on the fake flavour connection between scum!Chick and scum!rando in that one.

Alright I see now how claiming anything just helps scum. :/

P.edit, Obviously they involve fake flavours

but does that necessarily mean that flavour gaming is impossible? Fake flavour probably has some connection to true flavour. Like scum!random was Jareth but his fake flavour was the wise man and Jareth had appeared previously in the guise of an owl.

How did you go from wondering if fake claims involve flavour, to obviously they involve flavour, whilst P. editing and no one posting in between those 2 posts (expect you)

I'm probably derping - but I asked A50 what provided fake claims meant, because i dont ever play theme games so he told me it was indeed fake flavours... I'm sure I'm derping and everyone is going to be like 'yeah in theme it's obvious it would be fake flavour - especially as someone mentioned overkill 1 got broke by flavour claim'

but as a newbie to themes i had to ask and the way you posted makes it seem like you TMI'd then corrected yourself...

Yeah I can understand why you’d think that. I realized this after I posted it.

But I can say with 100% certainty, the flavour and roles are directly connected. If I were to claim my character, you would know exactly what my role is in this game and I do mean exactly.

A50 must have gone though Stallone’s entire fimography to find some of these gems.

[DrewVa]

It’s another Arnie quote and I’ve lol claimed cop so I was just mucking about

Anyway, did you answer 826?

No, just saw it now. That is why I said I believed that flavour gaming was definitely possible in this setup.

[DrewVa]

Gems? You have more than 1?! :p

I’m referring to Creature crumb in Daylight and my role. Too bad we don’t have a flavour cop in this setup. Mine would probably be hillarious, based on massive pun potential.

[DrewVa]

It’s another Arnie quote and I’ve lol claimed cop so I was just mucking about

Anyway, did you answer 826?

You’re Emil in Escape Plan?

[DrewVa]

I haven’t claimed anything
“I’m a cop you idiot” is a quote from an arnie film - I was continuing the joke from Alonzos Arnie quote

I’m confused now. Are you walking back your cop claim?

[DrewVa]

meh, I didn't mean to double post the first quote, but whatever.

... Also, I am totally team Drixx here in regards to the Nancy v. Drixx meanie contest. Short of someone being obscene, a bigot, or literally trolling to piss someone off, you should be prepared and put on your big boy/girl panties and know there will be slights against your character and playstyle in Mafia. I'd do the same in Drixx's shoes, and Nancy has a history of AtE, so it was a perfectly valid argument by Drixx.

Based on what you said to Math in Heroes, like Wisdom, this doesn’t surprise me but Drixx and me have resolved things and Fort has reqursted people stfu about it, so why do you feel the need to still add your two cents to this? Just focus on the damn game, kthanx.

[DrewVa]

I LOVE Sylvester Stallone!!

'GET TO THAAA CHOPAAAA'

Brilliant.

He’s a pilot? @Cheeky

[DrewVa]

I made a really obscure crumb based on the meaning of my character’s surname. I doubt that anyone will figure it out.

[DrewVa]

I think I believe Toog and the way he's gone about his claim. I don't think he's Scum/SK but like maybe a survivor? It would be weird if he was part of the town since we all got different acting roles.

Pedit maybe? I think it was more a "movie with Arnie" crumb.

Pedit ninjad

Escape Plan was the only Stallone movie I could find with Schwarzenegger in it.

[DrewVa]

I LOVE Sylvester Stallone!!

'GET TO THAAA CHOPAAAA'

Brilliant.

He’s a pilot? @Cheeky

Spoiler:

[DrewVa]

Yeah profii your vote is bad and you should feel bad
Anyway

Daykill : Profii

Hasta la vista baby

Spoiler:

I think I <3 this guy.

[DrewVa]

Wait shit, profii I think I understand.
Everyone, Profii is town~
I faked the shot.

Skimming a bit. This busy week is almost over so I’ll have more content soon.

I actually like profii for town from his reactions to Varsoon. I’m also liking amz for town.

I do better at building townblocks, so RR, Farside/Alonzo, Alchemist21, Mala, Cheeky, Amzela, Profii.

In addition to Varsoon, Fortian, hebi, Pint, Tails, FL role crumb makes me think he could be town.

maybe Gamma, Bujaber as well?

So, adding my slot makes 16 Now, only 10 more players to sort through.

[DrewVa]

I actually have a role that gets charged from getting shot with a night kill, so I’m okay with thatz

I don’t think this is something scum makes up.

[DrewVa]

Wait shit, profii I think I understand.
Everyone, Profii is town~
I faked the shot.

Skimming a bit. This busy week is almost over so I’ll have more content soon.

I actually like profii for town from his reactions to Varsoon. I’m also liking amz for town.

I do better at building townblocks, so RR, Farside/Alonzo, Alchemist21, Mala, Cheeky, Amzela, Profii.

In addition to Varsoon, Fortian, hebi, Pint, Tails, FL role crumb makes me think he could be town.

maybe Gamma, Bujaber as well?

So, adding my slot makes 16 Now, only 10 more players to sort through.

I’d think there’s be 10 non-town total
So uhhh, you got any scumreads out of your unsorted?

I still think Wisdom/Majiffy so far. Something about Wisdom’s tone seems a bit off to me. I can’t really explain because it’s very subtle. I think flips will help a lot.

[DrewVa]

VOTE: Wisdom

I haven’t seen anything from him yet, to make me think he’s town.

[DrewVa]

I was super serious about Wisdom being SK btw.

How many scum are we looking at

being towny is overrated

The order is flipped.

Maybe the towny comment is a joke but that felt like there was inspiration from elsewhere. 152 is his first shot at getting into the game so for that I don't like it. Doesn't really help town to speculate on the number of scum day 1. But it does help an SK get a feel for who they should be targeting.

Yeah, that question continues to ping me, especially since it’s a question that won’t get answered in this setup.

[DrewVa]

Drixx you're being a grade-A asshole here and it's definitely crossed from unintentional slight to willingly disrespectful and distracting to the game. Stand down on the attacks.

look at jiffy buddying Nancy
Guess hes actually scum

and profii is town

VOTE: majiffy

first of all im not even scumreading majiffy
My vote was there just because i wanted it to be there
But even if i was,

your

reasoning for

your

vote on him was crap

. It doesn't mean shit that you were sheeping me.

[DrewVa]

wouldnt be surprised if she turns out to be lyncher on me
she should be seeing im town by now

I could say the same about you.

You said my very valid case on Majiffy was essentially garbage and then voted me - after you said I don’t make something up as scum and decided I was town.

What makes you think we even have a lyncher in this game, when there was one in the last one. Do you think there’s also another lightening rod as well?

[DrewVa]

P.edit. If I was a lyncher on you Wisdom, then why was I trying to get everyone to sheep me on Majiffy, earlier?

Wouldn’t it make way more sense for me to be a lyncher on that slot?

But if you’re not scum here, then you’re playing atrociously.

Something I plan to delight rubbing your face in, for many future games to come.

[DrewVa]

Oh are we trying to lynch me again? That's fun. Good luck with that.

Ooh it's my scum day

Tell us why your play is so different here then in the game I linked?

You were blatantly obvtown in that one.

You especially need to explain it to Wisdom, how can’t understand meta reads if his life depended on it.

[DrewVa]

Wait shit, profii I think I understand.
Everyone, Profii is town~
I faked the shot.

Skimming a bit. This busy week is almost over so I’ll have more content soon.

I actually like profii for town from his reactions to Varsoon. I’m also liking amz for town.

Sorry, couldn't keep it up until a votecount.
I think we've also got literally everything we'd get out of the gambit and also Profii is for sure town.

profil is town.

I think you’re rather late to that party.

[DrewVa]

Okay I just found ths.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77288&start=25.

I was curious as to why Wisdom was voting Majiffy, so I ISO’d a towngame of his where his play was entirely different than it is here.

He has objectively speaking, the worst ISO in this game. There is 0 game content of any kind - which contrasts sharply with the game I’m linking.

so

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Majiffy

P.edit Better link.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77288&user_select%5 ... &start=200

As contrasted with this: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77824&user_select%5B%5D=17371

I think this is scum, sheep me.

Tell me why you think this was crap again. @Wisdom

Oh I remember your brilliant meta read on Nero in CoH. I guess that explains a lot.

[DrewVa]

UNVOTE:

Trying to decide between Majiffy and Goofball. I wouldn’t put it past Wisdom to be bussing here. Meh.

[DrewVa]

VOTE: Dripping Goofball
this wagon has people I like.

Chickadee I haven't played with scum creature but I know having a couple posts and then going potato is possible from him as town. If you've played with him more is he more likely to disappear as scum?

He is but usually he makes posts that are obvious scumtells first. Also his crumb seems less likely to be from a fakeclaim but we’ll see.

[DrewVa]

Short answer I was waiting on Thor. I'm still not sure on him but he has like 5 posts and half of them are "get RCE" so, shrug, don't have a read there yet. Majiffy isn't around but if anyone's scum on my wagon it's probably there.

I don't think I'm an easy sheep now that I've had to defend myself and I'm no longer lynchbait, so that's unfortunate. Or were you asking in a general meta sense?

Thor cheerleading a wagon is pretty standard for him, regardless of align.
I just meant here--like that it was easy for people to quickly sheep out on a wagon on you.
What makes Majiffy likely scum there?

The shut down comment was about Wisdom with the pocket comment. Not wanting to be pocketed isn't necessarily townie but it was a +1.

Wonky.
It seems like scum would be far more cognizant and thinking of mentioning pocketing/buddying than town, who'd just wanna catch scum.

As easily as anyone else I suppose, I won't AtE out of pressure though, *subtle jab*

I can't say, he has 3 posts with nothing game related but the vote. While I don't find inactivity alignment indicative, inactive town doesn't need pressure votes since they won't follow up on them. I would probably have been content with "sheeping so and so" I assume that's the case.

[DrewVa]

less likely to be from a fakeclaim

what makes you think that? (asking that, but I've never seen the film my claim comes from so I'd have no idea )

I dunno, I just don’t think Grace from Daylight is the likeliest fakeclaim, scum would have. He also didn’t necessarily have any particular reason to crumb when he did. Creature’s alignment well become clearer soon, I believe.

Also, posting an Amazing Grace video considering the time of year, isn’t even that obvious of a crumb. \_0_/

[DrewVa]

3 posts with nothing game related

I would call this scum.

This is a cutoff from a quote referencing Majiffy.

Decent chance if one flips red, the other will also.

[DrewVa]

I skipped the last 10 pages.

From skimming though, I'm thinking Creature is scum. I vaguely remember Tails (I think) saying Creature was in town range. Please clarify.

VOTE: Creature

Easiest read in the game. I mentioned it a while back and tried to give Creature time to redeem himself. Other people have mentioned it. Yet no one seemingly wants to vote there.

Why do you have him as a scum read. I don't necessarily disagree but is it just a gut read or what stood out to you?

Only people who haven't played a lot with Creature ask this question. As a general rule: is creature posting? If yes, town. If no, scum.

If Creature comes back and ups his game, I'll take back my vote. But this is textbook scum creature.

I thought you might say that i just played mini normal 2030 (see wiki) with scum!creature and he posted as much as I'd expect from creature so whilst his lack of activity isn't amazingly helpful, I'm not going to use that creature-scum-tell juuuuust yet.

I wouldn’t want to touch this wagon until D2 at the earliest but if Majiffy/Goofball flips red, I think we get 2 free. lynches until D3 anyway.

[DrewVa]

I skipped the last 10 pages.

From skimming though, I'm thinking Creature is scum. I vaguely remember Tails (I think) saying Creature was in town range. Please clarify.

VOTE: Creature

Easiest read in the game. I mentioned it a while back and tried to give Creature time to redeem himself. Other people have mentioned it. Yet no one seemingly wants to vote there.

Why do you have him as a scum read. I don't necessarily disagree but is it just a gut read or what stood out to you?

Only people who haven't played a lot with Creature ask this question. As a general rule: is creature posting? If yes, town. If no, scum.

If Creature comes back and ups his game, I'll take back my vote. But this is textbook scum creature.

As I said, for the record, creature has been getting better at upping his game as scum, so you can't just disregard him because he did so. I would like you a recent game where he was scum and almost managed to win in 3p lylo because he came back and spent like 2 hours actively posting when people started suspecting him, but I'm way too lazy to actually do that.

-Cerb

If you’ve played enough games with Creature, his alignment becomes really obvious. He has very clear scumtells if you know what to look for.

I will be particularly curious about any Wisdom reads on that slot.

[DrewVa]

Wait what’s the rational behind DrippingGoofball?

His reasons for any of his votes don’t make sense - especially the one on RCE, where he suspiciously cuts off his post. A post where RCE just happened to be scumreading Majiffy.

I ‘m sure there’s no connection though.

[DrewVa]

yeah like pre that game i referenced i would have probably jumped on too but word on the street is creature is now super scum

I feel like I wanna vote Wisdom but it's like a gut read, let me go see if i can case it out a bit better.

Wisdom being scum here would not surprise me in the least. I think he’s likely bussing Majiffy.

Also wouldn’t be shocked if Goofball/Majiffy/Wisdom are a team.

[DrewVa]

yeah like pre that game i referenced i would have probably jumped on too but word on the street is creature is now super scum

I feel like I wanna vote Wisdom but it's like a gut read, let me go see if i can case it out a bit better.

His tone is definitely off. It’s hard to see that until you’ve seen bleeding obvtown Wisdom, then it’s a lot easier to see the difference.

[DrewVa]

VOTE: DrippingGoofball

[DrewVa]

Oh are we trying to lynch me again? That's fun. Good luck with that.

Ooh it's my scum day

Tell us why your play is so different here then in the game I linked?

You were blatantly obvtown in that one.

You especially need to explain it to Wisdom, how can’t understand meta reads if his life depended on it.

I already explained this but 1) that game had a whole bunch of Torontomeet people in it originally and I wanted to play with them 2) my play isn't "so different" after they all replaced out 3) 1-game meta arguments are garbage

I just re-ISO’d your game and 2) is patently false. You’re obvtown game didn’t deteriorate at all, it remained consistent. 3) Completely disagree.

Fun fact: Scum!Varsoon said pretty much the exact same thing in BoD, wrt meta. I should have seen that for the scumtell it was.

[DrewVa]

Fwiw I didn't believe the dayvig was a thing, but that kind of solidifies my townread on Varsoon. The play started with his vote on Profii so if you look for reactions start there and not the actual shot.

Which post? I don't think I ever voted Profii.

Wisdom being scum here would not surprise me in the least. I think he’s likely bussing Majiffy.

Also wouldn’t be shocked if Goofball/Majiffy/Wisdom are a team.

Team 'minimum effort;maximum results'
Honest though you would think a scumteam here does put out less content in order to have a lower profile.
Also, given the nature of being able to be killed themselves, they probably do a lot of D1 distancing and ish like that.

Maybe but I’ve seen plenty of scumteams who didn’t do that as well. I don’t think Wisdom’s play comes from town. He has said way to many WTF things in this game - something he tends to mostly do as scum.

Like his recent lyncher comment, his asking about the # of scum comment. His incessant flip-flopping on my slot. None of that ever comes from town!Wisdom but he’s apparently good enough to have gotten himself townread by a few who know jack about his meta, so it’s obvious he won’t be getting lynched today.

I’m still going back and forth between Majiffy and Goofball for today, anyway. I think Wisdom just realized that Profii and me are bad lynches, so not at all impressed by his jump to Majiffy.

[DrewVa]

I mean
Meta arguments in general are garbage and I don't like em
For me, Meta ends up informing a lot of gut stuff for a player because I get a baseline for how their posting makes me feel as either alignment
But as far as strats and rhetoric goes, most players are capable enough to shift gears.

I always think meta should be supplemental to a case rather than the foundation for a scumread.

P-EDIT: Nah but the whole thing does kinda start around Profii voting and RR calling it a bad vote.

I strongly disagree. It isn’t helpful for all players and it is often time and site based but when you talk about recent meta on this site, for players you have had a lot of experience playing with, I think it can be extremely useful.

I do agree about meta being supplemental however. DVa is scumreading Wisdom, only on his play here and I am doing both.

I have correctly read Creature and remember, my desperado shot on Marquis? That was largely based on meta. His play in the 2 FG games was strikingly different.

[DrewVa]

I just re-ISO’d your game and 2) is patently false. You’re obvtown game didn’t deteriorate at all, it remained consistent. 3) Completely disagree.

Fun fact: Scum!Varsoon said pretty much the exact same thing in BoD, wrt meta. I should have seen that for the scumtell it was.

Well you've got blinders on. I stopped giving a fuck after D1. And good luck with that false premise of what actually makes meta arguments work. Hint: it's about statistical analysis, something you need more than one data point to do.

But sure, lynch me. This game was unpleasant with 5 players spamming the other 21 of us into prod dodge play and I don't see my enjoyment of it increasing any time soon

My comment disputing what you said regarding your play falling off in that game I linked wasn’t true. Anyone checking it can verify that.

Tell me then. Who is scum here and why?

Saying how you’re not invested in the game, is an extremely easy guise for scum to hide behind. Sure, town can do that as well but it doesn’t help us read you in this game.

[DrewVa]

Oh are we trying to lynch me again? That's fun. Good luck with that.

Ooh it's my scum day

Tell us why your play is so different here then in the game I linked?

You were blatantly obvtown in that one.

You especially need to explain it to Wisdom, how can’t understand meta reads if his life depended on it.

I already explained this but 1) that game had a whole bunch of Torontomeet people in it originally and I wanted to play with them 2) my play isn't "so different" after they all replaced out 3) 1-game meta arguments are garbage

I just re-ISO’d your game and 2) is patently false. You’re obvtown game didn’t deteriorate at all, it remained consistent. 3) Completely disagree.

Fun fact: Scum!Varsoon said pretty much the exact same thing in BoD, wrt meta. I should have seen that for the scumtell it was.

What are you considering obvTown for him? I was in that game with him and he did drop off after the OG playerlist was gone (but I was also scum and not really paying attention to Towntells).

He was making blatantly obtown posts throughout his ISO. Did you check my link? I didn’t count the number of them, only concerned myself with the content.

I prefer Goofball because his votes don’t make any sense at all and maybe Majiffy just needs to get his head into the game, so he can be solved D2.

[DrewVa]

My comment disputing what you said regarding your play falling off in that game I linked wasn’t true. Anyone checking it can verify that.

and yet in the very next post after this, Alch confirms what I've said.

Like I said: you've got blinders on

Tell me then. Who is scum here and why?

The BuJ person I'm voting. Their hop on the RCE wagon was hot garbage.

Saying how you’re not invested in the game, is an extremely easy guise for scum to hide behind. Sure, town can do that as well but it doesn’t help us read you in this game.

I don't really care.

Maybe, I townread RCE but Bujaber frequently got wagoned in the previous game but you’re also sheeping one of my strongest townreads. Hmmm . . .

UNVOTE:

[DrewVa]

Oh Varsoon too

Damn I wanted to be cool and lead the charge

You can still take the reigns if you have some actual reasons to elaborate on why other folks should be voting there
This is my worst challenge when it comes to mafia
It's really hard for me to get others to see shit that I consider obvious

@Varsoon, Tell me why you think Bujaber is scum? I’m reluctant to vote there because he was constantly being scumread and wagoned in Overkill 1. So, how is he more likely to be scum here, than in that game?