Newbie 1912 [GAME COMPLETE]

[MagikHorse]

Greetings all. I'm at work right now and need to read the thread a bit deeper (especially regarding the Loopdan stuff going on), but here's a question to buy a little time for that so this slot isn't totally useless.

Enter, why do you think Loopdan's vote on Ptv isn't distancing/bussing? You seem to know exactly what that looks like, and I want to know exactly why you think its unlikely here.

[MagikHorse]

I will put him at L-1 Later but dont want to risk a LOLHammer

I agree, and i also want to see something other than "hi, i exist" from the deadbeat slot

Just got home, so this will be coming shortly. Probably gonna start looking at Urist and Loopdan first because they have the most heat on them.

That being said, Loop is correct in his IC advice that looking for partners of an unflipped player is an exercise in futility and not worth the time nor the distraction it causes. I said this in my first post even. Once we get a red flip, then look for associations, as you have an anchored point to work off of instead of trying to base things off of unconfirmed information.

pedit: Wow Loop. I thought you'd be better than this as an IC. The pity play is not making you look good man, just sayin'.

[MagikHorse]

Why Muh anyways? Your vote on him made me check out his small 8 post ISO before anyone else, but I'm not seeing anything particularly scummy sans what looks like a jokey self-vote and a bit of lurking. What are you seeing here that's worth voting him up as your biggest scumread?

Just saying, I'm not supporting this on CLATS alone.

[MagikHorse]

And no, I'm not just saying that because I'm one of the ex-lurker slots. That's just irony.

[MagikHorse]

Just saying, I'm not supporting this on CLATS alone.

What is CLATS?

Confirmed Lurker And Therefore Scum. Essentially another term to describe a policy lynch on someone for lurking. I don't know where it came from, bit I encountered it in my first ever game of Mafia on an MLP forum, where it was used incredibly regularly alongside the catchline "Lynch All Lurkers".

I can see the vote possibly being an opportunistic leap, but if this is the scummiest we can find in 11 pages worth of content then Town is in a tight spot. I want to see more actual posting from him before making a call. We've got a few days left to go here for him to either do things or be replaced, and we've got over 5 days for that to happen.

[MagikHorse]

I'd also like to know what makes you differentiate "actively lurking" from any other kind of lurking, because I'm not seeing Muh online right now and he's not saying things elsewhere on-site either. If he was posting elsewhere and ignoring this game I'd cede the point, but he's not as far as I can tell.

[MagikHorse]

I'm skeptical of something this old, especially since the whole point of that thread was to complain about a tactic that annoyed him. Can you find a game where he's done this strat himself to back this up in any way and prove that he would actually do something like this?

RE Muh: I'm sitting neutral on him right now. Despite the potential scumminess of his vote on you, I like that he immediately questioned Thespio for voting the lurkers in 101. In general a vote on a lurking slot isn't going to get you any information when you could be pressuring a more active slot to at least learn some things about them, and calling him out on that earns some town points from me to even the scales.

[MagikHorse]

All of this was to Loop of course.

[MagikHorse]

Here's my readslist as it stands, now that I've finished reading and processing everything.

Skellen - Town
Thespio, Enter -Townlean
PvtUrist, muh316, Munchmellow, -Null Lurkers
Loopdan- Slight Scumlean
Elements -Scum

A lot of this goes without saying (Skellen has a really easy to follow line of thinking, Ptv, Muh, and Munch are all lurking) but my big ping right now is Elements.

Elements has posted very little to actually push the game forwards at all. Unlike Muh, Pvt, and Munch, they have a lot more activity and still don't have anything noteworthy to ask or poke at? For as much as my slot hasn't done much until I replaced in, this slot has done nothing all game to push things forwards and be proactive, and that concerns me even more than Loopdan does right now. If you want an "active lurker" this here's the closest thing we've got right now.

VOTE: Elements

[MagikHorse]

One game isn't enough for me to meta read someone on, and it was a replace-in quite a ways into the game too. The fight with NSG also seemed to consist of a whole lot of little posts, but nothing this big. A bunch of little posts sounds different to me than a few big ones, although I still agree that he's tunneled at least a little bit.

Either way that game feels radically different than what he's doing here, and this whole "He complained about something 3 years ago" thing doesn't really make me believe in it. This feels like a massive stretch to me to try and link these together in this manner.

[MagikHorse]

I want to take you seriously, but I find it hard to when you do things like this. It's self-destructive in the worst of ways.

The question at the end of 290 is interesting to say the least, although I think it's more of a curiosity thing than anything that actually matters much. I'll have to see what comes of that one.

[MagikHorse]

@Magik - Don't forget that other post where he categorizes his own play as tunneling NSG was posted 10 days ago. This inconsistency on how he views his play here is more than a curiosity.

He said "trying to tunnel" in that other game, which implies that he's telling the truth that he never quite felt like he really got into a full-blown tunnel as he planned and hurts that as an inconsistency, unless I think he's lying when he's already been hammered and the game lost for some reason. By that point I don't have much reason to expect lies from him.

I don't really see any reason why this tunnel (which was admittedly pretty small when you started calling it that) couldn't come from Town and has to come from Scum specifically, and that's my big hangup right now. Why is this a scum tunnel and not a town tunnel besides your flimsy meta reasonings?

[MagikHorse]

So, just the flimsy meta reasoning then. If you find something else more substantial than what you've already thrown out to back it up and maybe I'll consider that argument, but you're not getting any closer to swaying me with this line. Think on things, take a break if you need to, then come back once you have something else, but this is just too reachey for me.

[MagikHorse]

Magik - Check Muh's most recent post. That's what I was talking about when I said this...

What he is doing is popping in sporadically and selectively responding to the easy stuff.

He's voting me but has

nothing

to say about everything that has happened since his previous post (159)?

Whatever happened to "Me or Enter today" from 291? Why suddenly redirect attention to Muh?

You're right that it's weird and pretty scummy, I'll cede that much, but this redirection of attention is just really, really strange given your stated determination to either take out Enter or die trying. I mean, you can't

ask

Muh what he thinks either?

@Muh, what exactly do you think about the case on Loop or the countercase on Enter? Is there anything you find noteworthy or odd about this whole 1v1 scenario they've built up? Any actual thoughts on the game in general even?

Like, seriously dude, you gotta quit lurking and actually start talking about the hot button topics instead of haphazardly poking at semantics.

[MagikHorse]

A point where a point is due with Thespio, but as I said earlier it really irks me that people are still hunting via team searching. Until a red flip happens, that is going to be stupidly inaccurate and makes it look like you're just lining up a possible lynch for tomorrow. It's not a good way to scumhunt this early on.

Also, Elements, are you just unswayed by the arguing, thinking it's TvT or something, or are you just out there to fry the bigger fish?

[MagikHorse]

Elements is probably town.

Why do you say this? Until their latest two posts I've seen nothing notable or memorable from them, and they're the one scumread I have besides you and potentially Muh for that sort of behavior.

My #1 scumread if Loopdan flips town is: Elements/Muh (a.k.a. no significant change from the current state)
My #1 townread if Loopdan flips scum is: Enter (No real faith that Scum would do a tunnel bus this deep D1, especially with Loop forcing it between himself and Enter)

[MagikHorse]

Also, Elements, are you just unswayed by the arguing, thinking it's TvT or something, or are you just out there to fry the bigger fish?

which arguing are you refering to?

The arguing between Loop and Enter. Thought this was clear enough from context.

Elements is probably town.

Why do you say this? Until their latest two posts I've seen nothing notable or memorable from them, and they're the one scumread I have besides you and potentially Muh for that sort of behavior.

Elements is able to simultaneously recognize two truths: 1) Enter's push on me looks bad, 2) I haven't done a good job defending against that case. It just looks like a townie mindset. It could be scum hedging and hoping to mislynch town!enter tomorrow, but feels more town to me.

I'm think you have similar thoughts, but you seem less sure on #1.

"Less sure" is one way to put it, given that I don't believe #1 at all given how far out I'd have to go for that. I'm more concerned that you're a combination of too scummy to be scum and overly eager to sacrifice yourself, whish is a big reason why you're not lower on my list.

[MagikHorse]

Quick question to everyone not named Enter: Do you have any idea what his current read is on you?

I've absolutely no clue

I also have no clue, but the last post I was brought up was also before I had actually said anything of note and he's been too busy bickering with Loop since.

[MagikHorse]

Did you just softclaim a pr?

If my memory serves he's already gone on the record saying he was a VT at some point, or at least heavily insinuated such. Seems more like he's trying to tell any town investigatives to follow his lead and get Muh lynched.

[MagikHorse]

Also, I don't have a clue why Enter thinks Loop is scumreading me and Munch when we're third and fourth from the top of his list. I recall Loop saying my entrance was good earlier, which insinuates a townlean at the least and lines up roughly with my position in his list. That's weird.

[MagikHorse]

I am sleepy~... still wanted at least to comment while catching up on some things before I forget to do so tomorrow.

First, I want to hug Magichorse for his scumread on Elements. I was already feeling paranoid with everyone else townreading him. What you said about him is exactly what bothered me plus him being rather reactionary until that point of your post. How do you feel about his recent posts though? He became surprisingly bold and is now far more involved with the current situation. Although this can be interpreted in multiple ways. I am not really sure what to make out of it as I find his scum constellations weird (not his Thespio suspicion though).
Also how come you are holding Muh and PvtUrist in higher regard than Elements in #286? Both aren't really that different from him tbh.

Muh and Urist only had about 8-10 posts to their names when I made that list and were lurking pretty hard. Elements had around 30 at the time and still had nothing important to say. In my opinion being decently active and yet doing nothing to prod meaningful discussion is scummier than lurking all-out, because you're clearly there and yet not willing to throw your hat in the ring as opposed to simply being unavailable or busy. They've changed that somewhat once I called them out on it, but even then too much of it is pursuing a scumteam of Thespio/Enter instead of finding individually scummy players to the exclusion of all else (barring a single comment towards Loop), something which I've called out as bad play multiple times already and don't like whatsoever.

I'm just becoming more and more paranoid about this 1v1, and although it's proven to be a bit distracting it has made Muh come off more suspicious for ignoring such a massive fireball to go pick at a tiny little detail to no real end. I would honestly not complain about a lynch there except for the fact that it's fairly uninformative as a lurker slot lynch.

Post Review Edit for Skellen: According to Loop, Enter's scum because he made a complaint about this exact "flooding someone into submission" type of play 3 years ago on an alt, and then finished a game about 11 days ago where he had a couple dozen posts that was meant to coalesce into a tunnel on someone but backfired terribly. This is his evidence that Enter would deathtunnel someone to make sure they die really, really aggressively.

Honestly it's way too little and way too reachey for me, especially with how mild his "tunnel" was in the other game and how old that complaint was. Also, meta from one game isn't really worth much even if it did match up, so I basically don't buy into this at all.

[MagikHorse]

Speaking of the smaller battles, Magikhorse's vote on Elements is exactly what I was talking about in Post 102. I see Elements as a lurker who comes in to get his post count up but doesn't really contribute all that much.

The same easily applies to you, except you've also got a small postcount. What's up with that?

[MagikHorse]

Town needs to be flexible enough to adapt to new player behaviors or information, and setting up a list of lynches beforehand can interfere with that pretty badly. I very much agree with you there.

Seeking scum partners/scumteams is also bad before a red flip happens, but moreso because it's a distraction than anything else. Remember that the Mafia may be a team, but they operate independently and may not leave a clear trail to or interact much with their partner at all.

[MagikHorse]

if their TR was based on me being scum they need to re-evaluate.

This is truth regardless if you flip today or not.

[MagikHorse]

if their TR was based on me being scum they need to re-evaluate.

This is truth regardless if you flip today or not.

This is my biggest problem with it. One of the questions is completely useless to us if he's going to flip scum (but sure helps his buddy a lot) and the other looks like it's just there to make the other one look less scummy.

As if the scum can't read our readslists and come to the same conclusion on their own. Let's be honest, it's not hard to figure out the general town state in a game like this. There's really not all that much to gain from it as you're saying there is.

My concern isn't the questions, but people saying "X is scummy because of their interactions with Y" before we've flipped Y. It's pure speculation at this point. Speculation doesn't find scum, scumhunting does. It's a pretty good way to look like your scumhunting without saying anything actually helpful though.

[MagikHorse]

To clear up my whole "if loopdan is scum pvt looks scummy" thing. this isn't because if their interactions it's it eliminate enter from my list of possible scum

I don't follow this.

[MagikHorse]

No, this is your problem. If you're town, you should be asking questions based on whether or not you're town. Your excuse for asking a question based on you being scum is bad. Stop trying to put it off on me. I often have uncertainty, but usually it's against players that play well enough to make me doubt and don't regularly remind me that they are scum through their play.

You're blinding yourself in your tunneling. I'm not going to say his play is flawless or isn't scummy because he's definitely made his mistakes, but you're missing out on so much right now that it hurts. Too many things you've been poking at and calling him scum over, like his question pair, have a town side to them that he's already thrown out for all to see, yet you're skipping them right over and calling them scummy because they can be seen that way and completely ignoring the other side of the coin.

You're also missing the actions of the entire town surrounding you, and I have no clue what you think of anyone else at this point given how old your reads are and how little you've said about anyone else, and I'm not the first one to say that. You keep pointing back to your old posts as evidence of your reads, but do you still "want to see more from Magik" like your original post said? Seems like you could at least figure out something about my alignment after these 27 posts, but yet you've said nothing about me or anyone else lately, only referring to other people's posts when they're talking about Loop or talking directly to you.

If you're seriously town, take a break, cool your jets, and come back once you can review things without the massive confbias. I truly think you're town here given how suicidal this sort of tunnel is on Day 1 for scum, but you really need to get out of this tunnel and review everything he's said without this scum-tinted lens you're using right now because it's crippling your ability to help the town out.

[MagikHorse]

And now I realize I left an ugly artifact in that post from my constant rewiriting and editing. Bah.

[MagikHorse]

Mostly it's been the lurker pile of Urist and Muh, although Elements hasn't done a poor job in that regard too. Feels like there'd be at least one scum within this group if not advancing things while town dukes it out among itself is the game plan, and among them I'd go from most to least likely scum as Elements/Urist/Muh.

Doesn't help that Elements has thoroughly confused me with their last post, which doesn't make any sense I can find.

[MagikHorse]

Yeah, that's about what I expected of you. No removal of the scum tinted lens, no break to clear your head, no consideration of the other side of the coin, not a single thing about anyone but Loopdan and a "Hey I get it" even though you've completely missed the entire point of my post.

Talk to me when you're no longer tunnel visioned, and not a moment before. I'm not going to get anything useful from you out of this engagement while you are, and I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you. Focus elsewhere, at least for a little while.

[MagikHorse]

By "elsewhere" I mean "to people that aren't Loopdan". Rehashing the same Loopdan arguments over and over isn't "taking it elsewhere" by any definition of the phrase, nor does it help anyone. If anything it just makes the game that much harder to read and understand.

Getting to the rest of this shitshow in a bit, but oh boy is it a shitshow.

Preedit: I'm not asking you to drop your case, nor did I ever say to do so: I merely said to go case other people for a bit to get out of your tunnel. Don't try to spin this otherwise.

[MagikHorse]

You've missed my point yet again. Look elsewhere for a while, find out who else you think is townie/scummy and make a readslist. At this moment if he dies and scum kills you overnight we know absolutely shit all about where you stand on people, and that just means Town loses out on your reads and information.

[MagikHorse]

Like, that was the big point of my original callout that you said you understand. How can you claim to understand it and miss the whole goddamn point of it?

[MagikHorse]

Like, that was the big point of my original callout that you said you understand. How can you claim to understand it and miss the whole goddamn point of it?

My point is this: focusing elsewhere isn't going to get us much further day 2.

My point is this: Withholding reads and information from the town in the likely chances that you die tonight is information that Town can never make up for. Loop is 100% correct that information leads town to victory, regardless of what you think of him. That's just basic Mafia and nothing more.

[MagikHorse]

Spoiler 1: I really don't understand why you're scumreading him for his reads at all. Skellen was an obvious townie that he explained in 126 that makes sense (and honestly has me reading Skellen the same way), and the town at large seems to agree with that, although he was the first to declare it. Meanwhile on the low end of things Muh was accused of "active lurking" and picking on the easy stuff when I asked him about it and got 266 as an answer, which I could also see even though I personally think Elements is scummier.

I wouldn't mind an explanation on those reads, but the readslist looks fine in and of itself I'm not scumreading him for not giving explanations when you asked given his thoughts of you at the time. I think you complained about it not showing where null was as a point once too, but honestly that's just a formatting preference and not really important given that he's basically made a line of "A is townier than B is townier than C is townier than D..." and so forth.

Spoiler #2: Although I wouldn't call pushing on a lurker good, he had already townread Skellen for his sensible progression and revisionism and made the call that following Skellen's lead was better than his previous weak lurker vote, and I agree with that both on the Skellen TR and on the "improving your vote placement" front. It seems pretty self-explanatory why he'd improve a weak vote with a stronger one alongside someone he (and most of the town for that matter) trusted and townread, especially that early into the game when not many reads have developed yet.

Spoiler 3: As a general rule wagons are better than lone votes on Day 1, as a single vote is no concern when it takes 5 to lynch. As I said above it's not a strong vote, but it's not "damningly bad" or even too unreasonable when the game was still slow as it was at that point in time. Not good, but not nearly as bad as you're making it out to be, which is one reason why I've called you out for looking at things like this with a red-tinted lens.

Spoiler 4: I'm gonna ignore the first quote in that block since it has nothing to do with the other three in it, finding its relevance in Spoiler 5 instead.

Let's be honest here, the information that we gave from his questions is stuff people can mainly get by reading the thread and paying attention to peoples reads. Neither question is harmful to the town whatsoever, and given his current behavior that has been following the same pattern I can see this as an exercise to try and help Town out Day 2 by giving them something to think about now. I don't see how you can possibly justify either question as "giving Scum information" when by default making a post at all gives scum information from what you've said anyways, and overall don't find this scummy.

249 is a different beast altogether that doesn't connect to the others, but at least has some relevance to the accusations. Honestly though, it's spitting off the same thing I've said for ages now: hunting scum pairs at this stage of the game is folly. This is basically an IC info post with a suspicion with it, and the info ain't wrong nor the suspicions unusual. Altogether it's NAI, both scum and town could easily make this post with ease given its simple IC-esque nature and valid suspicion.

Spoiler 5: Once again this one comes down to perspective. This is either A: Town that has given up and doesn't believe that a player could be pushing those points so hard and believes that this is a massive scumplay (reinforced by post 252 that says effectively the same thing), or B: Scum that doesn't see a reasonable way out and wants to make sure the town stays distracted by keeping a 1v1 going. It was made in an emotional state where he couldn't possibly see a lynch outside of you two, which is why I don't think he'd complain about lynching outside of your 1v1 anymore and have pretty distinctly disregarded that as a "heat of the moment" thing given that he himself is breaking that to go look elsewhere.

I can't do much but leap to the former conclusion given how his current play hinders what would be scum!Loop's goal for this sort of post and the trail leading to it. He has effectively gotten over this and is now trying to give as much help as he thinks he can (although you're not helping by trying to counter all of this), while a scum!Loop here would rather just keep arguing with you to drag things out longer and keep town supressed underneath the argument. I just don't see a scum!Loop trying so hard to hunt for scum outside of you or making town think this much otherwise, especially when he's still at L-1 and could be lynched easily.

Spoiler 6: You said in that other game something along the lines of "I was trying to tunnel this person", and I had to read it twice myself to realize what I did in 301 (a.k.a you didn't call it a tunnel, but were trying to tunnel). I can easily see this as an honest mistake given that I did the same thing myself, and it certainly makes more sense than an intentional misrepresentation to make a point against you. There are so many other ways to make you look bad if that was his goal.

Spoiler 7: Once again I don't see any real connection between the two included quotes, so I'm splitting them up.

In post 299 he asks you to list your questions again. Just... really? You're calling him scum because he couldn't remember every single question you asked him? Quite frankly this is just him trying not to waste a whole bunch of time searching for every single question you ever asked him. This means nothing whatsoever.

And in 390 he tells Thespio to do his own homework instead of asking you for advice on what you're doing. Once again, nothing unusual or unreasonable given that he still suspected you at the time and people aren't going to be straight-up honest on their motivations if they're scum. There is once again nothing unreasonable or scummy about this.

Summary: I think he's at least null by this point, mostly because A: He's playing in a way that counters what his continued 1v1 with you would gain for scum!Loop (a.k.a. chaos, confusion, and a distraction to let his scumbuddy slip through the day unnoticed), and is now trying to actively work with other players to find out who is more likely scum now that he's written you out of the picture. This speaks leagues to his credibility as Town, and although I'm hesitant to say he's town outright I'm definitely not interested in lynching someone who is actively engaging with the town at large or trying what he can to help everyone scumhunt. Worst case scenario, we wait for day 2 and see what he does then.

And to counter the point of "being so hard to actually lynch": it's Day 1, people are still actively discussing things, and there's still plenty of time on the clock. Hammering now would be equivalent to a scumclaim with so much time and discussion going on, especially with several people waiting for Urist to come back and say things. It's not hard to lynch Loop because he's Loop, it's hard to lynch him because there's no reason to end the day. I think this would be easier for you to figure out if you weren't quite so tunneled and paying more attention to the game outside of your 1v1 quarrel.

[MagikHorse]

There ya go: 1325 words on the subject. May I never need to make a post this big again.

[MagikHorse]

The only thing I would add to that post is that scum!Loop would have self-hammered here before town starting looking past Loopdan-Enter.

I was thinking of that too, since that effectively cuts off the discussion and prevents Town from figuring anything else out when you had no hope for survival. Shoulda made a note at the bottom to bring that up.

[MagikHorse]

Can you clarify this? Why would a scum player self-hammer?

This ends the day way early, cutting off all other town discussion (which leads to better reads and more information for the town) and protecting the scumbuddy. Protecting the ally and reducing Town's ability to find scum is often critical enough for cornered or caught scum to hammer themselves to put a screeching halt on the day's momentum to hinder Town if they really don't think they can survive it.

[MagikHorse]

Yeah, I noticed that. Just saying, you don't "feel" Town. If you're Town, you've got a Mod-confirmed PM that says exactly that, no need to "strongly feel" it.

What gets me though is that you want to let the 1v1 go "out to the end", even though that only distracts the town at this point and has gone on for way too long. This irks me greatly, especially since you're also admitting to OMGUS, which itself is a terrible thing to be holding onto for this long. Why are you concerned about him not interacting with you much earlier when you've been so lurky anyways?

It also feel like you've completely missed my wall. I don't blame you too much for that, as walls are daunting by default, but it shows the other side you're missing here.

Still, I'm with the elephant here. Your OMGUS reasoning this far in is just terrible, and I don't think my vote is doing jack all on Elements right now.VOTE: Muh

Prepostedit: You've proven to me that you're utterly delirious if you truly believe what you've posted there Enter. Every single answer there is exactly the same red-tinted biased drivel I've been hearing from you lately, on top of disbelief for disbelief's sake. He's already been slipping closer to town for ages now, and you've been blind to that shift.

I no longer have a single shred of reason left to listen to you or your case, regardless of your alignment. Go find something else better to do than waste 3 hours of my time replying to you or your accusations.

[MagikHorse]

Like, dang your case works if you believe in the utter worst case scenario for literally everything he's made and ignore any possible good! Fancy that!

[MagikHorse]

This is the reason you're both still tag-teaming for a lynch

This is really funny when you consider that our votes never lined up with each other until just a few minutes ago, and this post came from before I changed my vote.

Almost like it's not true.

[MagikHorse]

This is the most emotionally taxing game of Mafia I've ever played.

And it's day1 in a Newbie.

Not as bad as my second onsite game. People scumread me right off the bat because I said "I could OMGUS this guy who voted me, or I could vote this other guy instead" in my opening post and they thought that was "thinking too much".

Only thing here is it's just one guy who on a really high horse, not the entire town. I have never wanted Town to ignore a townread before, but here we are with Hot Air McGee, calling the scumteam on Day 1 with lungs of steel and shouting garbage into the masses. I swear he's gonna be a liability if he keeps this tunneling shit up.

[MagikHorse]

Unless you have a better explanation as to why the player people townread the most if he flips scum is a question that should ever be answered if he's town?

Yeah... The better explanation is that I'm town so that question can be useful day2 when day1 reads are re-evaluated. But I've already said this so please just stop.

1. Not asking you.
2. This isn't helpful at all. Please stop.

Neither is what you've done to my work either. Either you have no clue what is more likely than not or you're so wrapped up in your own ego that you just need to replace out, because the confbias is well over 9000 and approaching infinite at a rapid pace.

Either way, the rest of the town can easily decide on their own without any more of this meaningless back and forthing. All your shouting do is make you more of a liability to the town and drown out everyone else.

[MagikHorse]

And you're allowed to make all the passive-aggressive comments to me? Funny that. Also funny that I'm the "ignorant" one.

Nah, this is all just OMGUS and rage. Go take a nap or something.

[MagikHorse]

Let me ask you this really quickly. What does his flip tell you about everybody involved? Give me this as an explanation and I'll consider it even though it goes hard against my gut and my evidence.

[MagikHorse]

Let's be frank Sir Enter, I'm as disinterested in this lynch as I can be. Perhaps it's the bond of brothers through similar trials, having gone through your brutal and biased tribulation together, perhaps I'm simply more willing to believe in the good he's shown than the bad while you do not, but either way you will not convince me to follow you with a case. I will always believe myself over you, and nothing you can ever do will change that, nor have you moved me even one hair closer to following you, town though you may be.

But what I do know is your tunnel case and the lashing out onto me as a result of disagreeing with you cannot be allowed to continue distracting and blockading the town like this, and thusly the only way I'm participating in this lynch is if I think we can legitimately get enough information about everyone else to justify it, hence my previous question whom Loopdan has now parroted back in a similar manner.

Either way I will act tomorrow so the remainder of the Town has a chance to purvey the countercase and form their own opinions on the matter. This lynch should not be my decision alone, but the decision of the town, and it would be hasty to act before most of them have had a chance to wipe the sleep from their eyes. If they believe me that he has enough town merit to spare him, then I hope you will move on from your tunnel and work with the Town in harmony. If they believe you, then I will reluctantly agree to off him should the town still bay for his blood and the circumstances are reasonable, though I will do so with great sorrow. Either way I weep for the troubles caused tonight, as Town clashes against perceived Town in a battle of egos, wit, and stubbornness that should never have been.

[MagikHorse]

Man, I sound like a friggin' playwright or something. Dunno why, I start to do weird things like that when I get sleepy. Either that or become incredibly slaphappy.

Off to bed I go at any rate.

[MagikHorse]

Magik, I think you're being pocketed. Loop's sweet talk might be getting to you.

Loop's sweet talk? You didn't read my massive wall did ya? There's plenty here which speaks to Town which I threw up in his defense, but nobody else seems willing to even bother trying to find it or listen over Enter's vocal chords. Also, OMGUS is a shitty reason, full stop. It's not icing on the lynch, but proof you need to reconsider things.

Regardless, is there anything else that people need get out of the way first? I know Thespio has "questions on this" to ask that I'd like to hear, but otherwise I think Enter has downright forced the Loopdan lynch to the exclusion of all else. Just sayin, if both Loop and Enter are town here I will be downright pissed at Enter for it. If scum he's doing a massive gambit I don't see likely, if Town he's playing terribly.

Also, Elements better not hammer before Thespio has a chance to ask his questions and I have time to answer. I'd also appreciate a chance for Urist to come make some comments as well.

[MagikHorse]

@Elements Loop being the "most beneficial lynch" isn't an excuse not to have reads on other people. Still highly disappointed in this slot.

@Thespio Why would it be suspicious? Information is pro-town. Buying time for information is in no way reason for me to suspect alterior motives.

[MagikHorse]

I made no sense, I mean:

He literally was at the point of just leaving the game until his lynch
How does that help town?

Ever heard of this thing called "frustration"? I thought I did, then Enter went after me too and proved that I really never had a clue until now.

Even then you seen to want me to believe that he's pocketing me, but I don't see how that matters. If hes scum and pockets me he dies. If he's town and pockets me here he dies. It literally does not matter one way or the other unless Loop doesn't flip today, which is pretty unlikely.

excuse not to have reads on other people

what is this refering to?

This is referring to the fact that I know jack all about your reads on anyone but Loop. Change this please.

Prepostedit: FINALLY SOMEONE ELSE FUCKIN' SEES IT. You're going to get the same info anyways regardless as to whether you get it now or in 2 days, so there is no reason to rush. Rushing the day forwards is scum thinking at worst and heavily antitown at best. Add that to the fact that they've been my #1 scumread all day and you get some mighty fine dirt.

I don't think it'll stop the Loop train, but this is definitely a good place to push until we get a replacement for Urist (or Urist returns to the game) and the day actually begins to wane.

[MagikHorse]

To be fair I'm kind of the same way at the moment with Loop, although my reluctance has been stated in no uncertain words that I really, really don't want to do so (although those words might be slightly Shakespearean). I'm more concerned by the antitown thinking of wanting to rush the day forwards and leave the replacement in the dust as well as cutting off all discussion. He has done nothing significant to help the town, and now he is strictly playing antitown, whether you believe it to be for rushing or for wanting to lynch a townread or some combination of both.

Either way I'm with ya. As I said in my last post he's been my top scumread all day long, but I haven't really been able to do much about it in all the chaos of the Loop Vs. Enter fight. This is my chance to finally get some outside pressure going on someone I'm convinced might actually flip scum at this point.

VOTE: Elements

[MagikHorse]

I can respect your wishes to wait for the Urist replacement. That's fine.

I'm not entirely sure I recall the case on Urist all that well though. Anyone have a refresher for that? I'm a bit busy staffing ye olde TTT server to look it up right now.

[MagikHorse]

Think about the Mafia wincon here: 3 mislynches and the Mafia wins (with some mild exceptions for if you get 2 protects or NK blocks in one game, which is highly unlikely anyways and probably means the Town has already caught the scum). Is it worth giving the scum 1/3 of their wincon for the information you expect to find within this flip? If so, will someone please tell me exactly what this information actually entails? Enter was supposed to get back to me at some point today about that, but it seems like he's not here yet.

And while you're at it, how exactly are the current discussions "detrimental to town"?

[MagikHorse]

Stop repeating my questions Loop >.<

[MagikHorse]

Looks like a different question to me?

[MagikHorse]

My reads are lame so here's a few questions;

@Skellen ignoring the 2 inactive players, who do you feel to be the scummiest/towniest right now? How different do you feel with forum Mafia vs IRL?

@all reads on Thespio? Namely his page 2/3 fluff and #84 scum slip.

It would certainly be convenient if the

lurking scums

inactive players decided to show up.

Couple things, why are all of your posts revolving around Thespio particularly?

Then, you're calling Thespio scum while immediately contradicting that by pleading to the "inactive scum" to post. Effectively agreeing with your only scumread at this point? I'm not following, got my eyes on you.

You do realize PtvUrist is the person you've replaced, right?

This is your own slot!

[MagikHorse]

Bah *PvtUrist. This is why I kept saying "Urist" all the time, because I kept flipping those two letters around in my head.

[MagikHorse]

Good luck with those. I know I definitely want to see what you make out of 'em.

[MagikHorse]

The biggest reason (IMO) for everyone's fear of scumreading him is his constant AtE (I just wanted this to be a positive experience, GL town. You are going to need it., putting this in my signature, etc.) and that's a problem. None of those posts are a good reason to townread anyone. They dirty, nasty posts that have nothing behind them and they should be read like a slimy weasel begging for it's life. They belong nowhere near this game and the fact that an IC is posting things like that is borderline unacceptable.

Twas plenty of AtE in your own posting just a couple days ago ("Just lynch him, I'm tired"), so I don't know why you think this is "unacceptable" for someone else but not for you. Pot meet kettle?

Thanks for your list of reads based on his flip. That's quite informative.

[MagikHorse]

I'm not even gonna bother interacting with Enter anymore, and I doubt that Loop should either given how much Enter's acting like a Lyncher here. It's not worth the time nor the distraction it causes. If Loop does flip town, which I still see a really good chance of, I'm gonna be incredibly livid with Enter regardless.

Even despite that, there's no reason why we can't pressure Elements while the timer runs down so we have as much information on their slot as possible before nightfall.

[MagikHorse]

I blame nobody for time differentials.

[MagikHorse]

Muh is another player to watch out for. OMGUS is a terrible reason to vote anyone this late in the day, especially when the source of that OMGUS is from really early in the day. He's a SE player. If he was a newbie I'd be more lenient given that new players tend to make that argument fairly often, but he should know better than to lean on OMGUS as a reason even if it's just "fuel on the fire". That's not even mentioning the "If you so strongly feel you're town" line which is just terrible.

I'd also expect him to know how to prodge better than 306, but that's admittedly not very AI. He would've been better off saying "This is a prodge. Loop is still scummy", as that would count as enough content to reset the prod timer instead of making one of the worst nitpicks I've seen this game though. I have to wonder if he couldn't find anything better to poke at or something.

[MagikHorse]

Elements, you can pause, can you just tell me what you gain from a loopdan lynch, i see that it clears a few people up, but just say who you will find town/scum if he is scum.

He's already said I'm a townlean should Loop flip Town and scummy if Loop flips scum, which is all well and fair. Still, more would be appreciative.

[MagikHorse]

Im not on there.

What do you mean by this? Are there parts you disagree with? Do you not understand it?

[MagikHorse]

Elements, you can pause, can you just tell me what you gain from a loopdan lynch, i see that it clears a few people up, but just say who you will find town/scum if he is scum.

He's already said I'm a townlean should Loop flip Town and scummy if Loop flips scum, which is all well and fair. Still, more would be appreciative.

Yeah, I dont think lynching someone you read as town to prove someone else they associate with is town is a good idea.

I'd agree with this unless it gets Town into a situation where it cannot reasonably lose or that Townie is being a severe hindrance to the game. If someone is being a total buttface and causing problems for the town because of it I wouldn't care too much if they flip green because it's one liability down, but I don't think this applies to Loop whatsoever.

Enter's earlier response basically claims it's worth it for the former, with 3 potential scum if Loop flips town and 3 potential scum if Loop flips scum. Either situation, if accurate, would be an unlosable situation for the Town. It's risky though, because scum could easily hide among the massive 1v1 between Loop and Enter and stay off the radar as long as they throw in enough stuff to make it look like they're participating (a concern of mine with Muh in particular), which is why I'd still rather lynch outside of Loop if possible but will go along with it to avoid a nolynch.

Prepostedit: And since Muh brought it up, a nolynch is strictly worse for Town than a mislynch because of how the math works regarding the number of votes to lynch. It's a lot harder for Town to come to a lynch consensus with an even number of players than an odd number. You'd eventually hit either a 6 or 4 player MYLO that would require 4/6 (66%) or 3/4 (75%) votes to majority lynch instead of a 5 or 3 player LYLO that requires 3/5 (60%) or 2/3 (66%) votes to reach a lynch, which basically means Town has to get an extra guy on either lynch to work it out.

This is why lynching yourself to avoid a nolynch is better for Town than nolynching. It's not so much killing yourself for information as much as not screwing town over mathematically (assuming scum never misses a nightkill, and if they do some PR somewhere stopped it and knows a likely townie to support to make up for the deficit of needing an extra player).

[MagikHorse]

Ah, classic Loop. Stalling the game and trying to push another lynch just to survive another day. First he tried to push my lynch but that didn't go anywhere. As soon as he saw the opportunity of another possible wagon on Elements, he jumped on it immediately.

It could be opportunity, but it could also be an attempt to get pressure elsewhere and find out more information, which neither you nor Enter seem to be capable of believing in. You were giving him no such thing at the time with your inactivity, so it's really not an unreasonable town play to try and pressure the now actually productive Elements slot and work on sorting you later once you're actually going to respond to the pressure. Once again this town fails to see the other side of the coin, which is proving itself to be a pattern that just keeps repeating itself this game.

What so terrible about the "If you so strongly feel you're town" line? I've noticed that both you and Loop are both hunting for excuses to jump on wagons. First you both did it with my comment about "If you so strongly feel you're town" and then subsequently did it with Elements post. I know Loop is trying to get the wagon off himself, but I feel like you've been pocketed by him and are trying to save him no matter what chance you get.

Nobody else commented on that except for you two which just goes to show how you both are trying to reach at whatever you can get so that this Loop lynch doesn't happen.

If he's town, he has a PM from Nauci that proves it bona fide. It's how you presumably know your own role after all. This wording makes absolutely no sense at all unless you think he can doubt his own towniness, which is only possible if he's scum. If he's scum he won't answer you straight and means nothing. If he's town, he can't "feel town" and the question makes no sense. Besides being totally useless you're directing a question towards "scum" and expecting it to mean something.

And hey, what is exactly wrong with playing the Devil's Advocate? Unique spins on things give Town more to think about to make a more educated decision. You could almost meta read me on this sort of Devil's Advocate play, as I have done so 4 times in my 3 town games on-site, and been right every single time to boot. Sadly I don't have a good scumgame to compare it to (as the game has either been lost to time/a forums crash, was a Marathon game where the game was over and done within an hour, or I replaced out after a couple days due to illness and never got far enough to do such), but I will say this is not at all beyond town!me given that consistent fact that it's happened in every town game thus far. I'll provide example links to this on request.

Pressuring more people is also never a bad thing if there's a legitimate cause to suspect them. Elements recognizes that the callouts that me and Thespio are pushing are legitimate and is trying to work with us and prove through their actions that they are town because of it, which in turn means our push this way is yielding informative results.

If we see something suspicious, why should we not call it out to the town and get to work on figuring out what it means by applying pressure to it? Is this not exactly how Town wins games?

Your recent posting has been all shade throwing and simple questions, no substance. Enter's been similar with his shade throwing, but yours lacks the same backbone or determination to it that he has, not to mention any significant information. Elements has been similarly suspicious, but they've at least started reacing to the pressure and is now giving us content to work with.

If we've been pocketed by Loop, you've been pocketed by Enter hard, but don't have any of the merits he does to make me believe you're town.

[MagikHorse]

@Enter Stop interacting with me if this is all you're gonna do.

[MagikHorse]

stop doing things that you don't want to be called out for.

Stop making up things to call me out for then.

[MagikHorse]

Like, really, you're calling me out because I disagree with you, and that's basically the end-all-be-all. Disagreeing with you =/= scum.

[MagikHorse]

I guess we'll see when Loop flips green, eh?

Also why don't you answer the same question I just asked to Muh? How does calling things out and applying pressure to people in any way hinder town?

[MagikHorse]

PEdit: lol he won't flip green, but if you really think so, why don't you flip him?

why are you asking me a leading question?

Because flipping Town doesn't help me win and there's still discussion to do? Haven't we all been over this already, because I'm not gonna keep explaining it to you over and over again. That's your job.

And how is it a leading question if this is the exact same thing you're accusing me of? I call Muh and Elements out for things and apply pressure to them, then you come and call me out for that. Explain that to me.

@RCEnigma I entered on Page 9, but it was mostly just a filler post with a question because I was at work. I didn't get to swinging full-time until page 11 when I returned from my job.

[MagikHorse]

muh didn't sheep me, he had his own reasons for voting.

No...no he didn't. His vote was a result of your case and how aggressively you came into the game against Loop.

I certainly haven't seen anything significant from him either. If you wouldn't mind pointing this out, it'd help.

[MagikHorse]

Like, the most unique thing I see is him shading Loop for jumping to the Elements wagon. That's about it.

[MagikHorse]

I'd agree with you RC, but then I'd be accused of attempting to pocket you. Sorry.

Also, just noticed a couple of Thespio questions I missed by accident. Getting on those in a moment. I blame Enter being a distraction again.

[MagikHorse]

Once again this town fails to see the other side of the coin, which is proving itself to be a pattern that just keeps repeating itself this game.

Mean

How do you feel about elements reads?

Don't agree with the Muh read, but I see where they might see what they do. Need to reread Munch in general before commenting on that one. Last time I remember paying attention to them I didn't have much to say about them besides their low activity.

Also does that mean you TR him?^

No. I was referring to my frustrations with the town as a whole, not a single person.

[MagikHorse]

...as an unannounced L-1.

Right after Skellen, someone who is read as town almost universally, unvoted too to glean more info from the day.

[MagikHorse]

If he's scum, then he has to "feel" town. A scum player has to fake the feeling of being a town player which is why I said that phrase. My question was also pretty clear. If you're town, then surely some of the players on your wagon are scum, yet 3/4 of his reads were off his wagon at that point. A town player would probably suspect the people on their own wagon. I felt like this is something that as a town player, you can read these things. As a scum, you have to fake your reads which also creates slip-ups, like the one I just described.

Last I heard there's usually 1-on-1-off on a Day 1 Newbie game wagon, but it's overall a thing highly up for debate. Although it's not bad to search people on your own wagon, scum like to remain separate from each other and don't like being both on or off a wagon. Regardless, do you think he didn't give proper thought about those people on his wagon?

Are you his lawyer or his spokesperson? You're so vehemently defending this dude and I don't get it.

Quite frankly it concerns me when a case is so focused on one singular side of an argument to the point that everything else gets missed, which usually leaves me reviewing things to see what the other side of the case might have to offer. As I said earlier I've had 4 such "Devil's Advocate" arguments in my 3 Town games, and I'll link those segments should you wish for it.

This means your scumreading Enter, right? Generally, scum pockets town yet you've called Enter a TR for the most part.

You're certainly following him like a lamb with little reasoning of your own. That makes it feel like he's got you in his pocket, irregardless of his alignment. Perhaps calling you a sheep is better though.

Enter is either really bad town or ridiculously suicidal scum, and the latter is incredibly unlikely. It's not a way anybody wants to be Townread, I'll say that much.

Jumping on one sentence isn't efficient scumhunting. But sure, I'll give this one to you. The thing that bothers me is the blatant team voting going on with you and Loop.

With a day so focused on one singular wagon, what else can we do? There's not enough outside of this singular case to do anything else but poke at what we do see. It's not efficient, but it's the only way at this point in the game.

And if you're so focused on team voting, why are you not worried about Thespio too? If anything Thespio and I are voting as a team and Loopdan is following us around at this point.

muh why are you nitpicking arguements, can you give us something real, a read you actually have?

Let's lynch loop first.

So, you're not willing to help the town until Loop eats rope. That's not a good thing ya know.

Here's a challenge: Do what Enter did and post 2 readslists based on whether Loop flips Town or Scum.

Yes, the argument he made was convincing enough for me to solidify my vote on him. If I see a strong case, I'll evaluate it and if I agree I'll go with it. It's how I always play. Similar to what Magik and Loop are doing with each other. Except I don't feel the need to repeat arguments to get my word count up.

The former I won't blame you for, even though I disagree with the result. Still, I wouldn't be repeating arguments if the same questions and scenarios weren't being thrown at us, so thanks for the shade I guess?

We have 29 pages on D1, yet I've only seen 2 strong cases develop. This game hasn't had any significant development at all besides Loop/Enter and maybe this Elements wagon.

And this is not an excuse to be lackluster in trying to contribute things to the town. Surely you've got something useful to add by now.

[MagikHorse]

muh has reasoning of his own. it just also happens to coincide with mine, because he's town, and also really capable, unfortunately, you're scum, so you're just gonna keep making false accusations to make him look worse. there's a difference between muh having complete thoughts that are like mine and the outright sheep that loopdan did. oh wait - you're working w/ loopdan. Ouch. srry

The only thing you're doing here is provoking me intentionally. Stop it.

[MagikHorse]

magik is scum because he seems capable of playing the game well and outright refuses to in favor of not lynching loopdan

Why is lynching Loopdan right this moment "playing well"? Convince me of this.

[MagikHorse]

And no, the answer isn't "He'll flip scum".

I know for one that Elements still has reads to post that I'd like to see and think about overnight at the very least.

[MagikHorse]

Unless the timer is threatening to run out, there is still no reason to rush his lynch, and "he's scum" is still very much not a legitimate reason to deprive the town of information to mull over and is a sign of impatience over rational thought. He'll flip in due time. Making it come sooner merely means we're in a slightly weaker position on Day 2, since we know less on the other non-Loop players than we otherwise would. To say otherwise is proof of foolishness when RCEnigma is currently posting about their readings and Elements also needs to finish their readslist, both which will contain helpful information for the town.

One part of me does want to hammer Loop just to watch him flip green and your smile turn into shock as your ego falls to pieces, but I'm a better player than that. I'd only be disgracing myself and hurting the town by giving in to that instinct.

My readslist has moved a little bit, with the changes being Muh dropping down into Scum territory, Elements rising slightly to Nullscum, and Thespio rising to full Town, not to mention Loop. In the end it looks a bit like this:

Skellen, Thespio - Town
Enter, Loopdan -Townlean
RCEnigma, Munchmellow, Null
Elements- Slight Scumlean
muh316 -Scum

Skellen is obvtown from earlier who I have no complaint with yet.
Thespio is also contributing hard to the discussions and making good outside pushes to try and gain info pre-flip.
Enigma has a little leniency here by being new, as I'm mostly waiting to see how they take things and am happy with their current contribution attempts.
I need to see more from Munch altogether. I recall something making me feel good about a post or two from them, but there's overall too little to judge on.
Elements is improving a little now that they're actually trying to reread and evaluate everything, though they still have a way to go.
And Muh is pretty plain if you've read the last couple hours or so.

And really, if you wanted a readslist all you had to do was ask. No need to throw it in my face.

[MagikHorse]

Anyways, I'm hitting the sack. Complain away Enter.

[MagikHorse]

It's almost funny to me how much of your play seems geared towards attacking me, but I guess that's because I've been a bit of a jerk, huh? I'm starting to wonder if you disagree with me only because you want to be right and see me be wrong, and not for any fact-based reason and that's why it always seems like when you respond to my posts you're responding to something I don't feel like I ever said. That makes a bit more sense than the speculation that you're just scum. And it would explain why you come across as intelligent and well-thought, but your posts to and about me seem so ill-informed - as if your desire is more to be right over me instead of finding scum.

To be honest with you, I wasn't trying to dig that you hadn't posted a reads list, I was trying to get at the fact that I still haven't gotten a satisfactory reads list from Loopdan, but oh well. I don't think that will ever happen. I'm really glad you're trying to help, though? I feel like the way we met, and the way I was so abrasive is what put you off.

Yes, you are very much being a jerk, both to me and Loopdan. Why else do you think I've been trying to interact with you as little as possible? Apparently saying "Stop interacting with me. Go away" several times hasn't been enough to drill this point home until now, and I'm saddened by the fact that it's taken you this long to figure it out.

Admittedly I do want to spite you with a Loopdan green flip, but it's because I think that's the one and only thing that will actually put your ego in check and make you actually start listening to differing opinions instead of merely calling then "ill-informed", thus improving you as a player for the coming days should you survive. Like, really, if you think I'm so intelligent why do you think I cannot think for myself? I can't be both intelligent and dumb at once, yet this seems to be what you're implying.

Also noting that once again you have flipped from raging at me to total calm (to seem like less of a bad person?), just like you did earlier to try and convince me to hammer Loopdan a day or two ago with your "I'm tired. Lynch Loopdan" speeches. Doesn't change much because you've already burned the bridge between us so badly that I never want to play with you again if you're legitimate town, so this sudden nicey-nice change does little to persuade me of anything.

[MagikHorse]

Enigma, given how large this singular day is, I don't have any issues with it being a bit dense. It's bound to wind up that way with so much content to sort through unless you split it up into multiple posts.

Beyond that I like basically everything you just said, for as much as Enter or Muh is gonna try and shade me for saying it.

[MagikHorse]

*are, not is. Grammar mistakes happen.

[MagikHorse]

I think you're wrong on all counts besides the "Allowing someone to live in a screwed up manner is meaner than telling them so" line, which is exactly what I've been trying to do with you and your own inability to see or understand things (ironically the same thing that you accuse me of). In the end there will be no resolution here until he flips. Coming to me now accomplishes nothing besides stirring up trouble.

Leave me alone. You are not gaining anything by talking to me right now.

[MagikHorse]

I may not be gaining anything from you right now, but our interactions will still be here after I die tonight.

PEdit: which is why it should have ended pages ago. Please just post intent. The whole dragging things out to look town thing is dumb.

Intent to never talk with Enter again.

There, you have my intent.

[MagikHorse]

Enter, here's the thing. You think that because Magik and I are supporting each other that we must be scum-buddies, or that one of us is pocketing the other. I'll give you that there is a

small

chance Magik is scum and realized he could buddy me by being the only voice taking up my side against you. But I don't see that as very likely, for two reasons: 1) He didn't really come over to my side until you laid into him. 2) It's super high effort for a low payoff for scum!Magik to play out day1 like this.

I think more than anything we are reading the game in a similar way and have both felt what it's like to be at the end of one of your wall onslaughts. I'm sure that town!Magik has a place in his thoughts where I could be scum, just like I do with him, because we are both experienced enough to know that skillful players can mimic town very effectively. But this doesn't feel like I'm being pocketed. He has an underlying suspicion on my alignment, and it's hard to get that balance right when you are scum trying to pocket town.

Loopdan, wanna hydra sometime? We are both on the same page so badly right now.

[MagikHorse]

Never lynch Magik.

If there's a doc they should protect Magik. He may be your only hope.

Also what Magik just is pretty damn townie.

I'm not making anything up about pocketing. I don't know how this isn't apparent to you, Magik, but it's p obv to me.

I thought it was p obv to you, actually, when you posted this:

Stop repeating my questions Loop >.<

====

Enter, here's the thing. You think that because Magik and I are supporting each other that we must be scum-buddies, or that one of us is pocketing the other. I'll give you that there is a

small

chance Magik is scum and realized he could buddy me by being the only voice taking up my side against you. But I don't see that as very likely, for two reasons: 1) He didn't really come over to my side until you laid into him. 2) It's super high effort for a low payoff for scum!Magik to play out day1 like this.

I think more than anything we are reading the game in a similar way and have both felt what it's like to be at the end of one of your wall onslaughts. I'm sure that town!Magik has a place in his thoughts where I could be scum, just like I do with him, because we are both experienced enough to know that skillful players can mimic town very effectively. But this doesn't feel like I'm being pocketed. He has an underlying suspicion on my alignment, and it's hard to get that balance right when you are scum trying to pocket town.

No, that's not why I think you're scumbuddies. I think you're scumbuddies because you say a crap ton of dumb stuff and then magik is better at looking less dumb and you cheer him on. Constantly.

Magik is scum because he saw you as scummy but only moved his read farther from that when I started calling him out on not dropping intent to hammer and you being in a different place in his reads list than his play represents.

You're not reading the game in a similar way at all, you're just saying everything magik says again, except in dumber words, at this point, after you said a million things that he didn't agree with.

Intent to never talk with Enter again.

[MagikHorse]

@Magik - Let's do it.

[MagikHorse]

I see what you're doing Loop, and I like that.

[MagikHorse]

I've been busy for the last hour or so, and I'll be unavailable for most of tonight. Just thought you guys should know.

Anyways, I don't really think that this is some sort of "master plan" from the beginning rather than him suspecting you of evolving your plan in an attempt to get him lynched and cut off the day.

[MagikHorse]

Got a bunch of snow to shovel thanks to Winter Storm Harper (which is quite frankly why I never responded when I returned home last night. Too shaky after having to drive on these slippery, snowy roads with a bunch of wind from the storm trying to blow me around). At some point today I'm gonna have to get to that.

RCEnigma is looking pretty good right here. Consideration of all sides of the discussion with solid reasoning and logic all throughout and a thorough understanding of the game up to this point, all of it agreeable to me. Some of it rehashes things that me and Loop have said before but comes naturally and unforced from their own line of thinking, and it's actually gotten Enter to actually listen to it this time. I dub thee the "Enter Whisperer".

At least it looks like Enter is being somewhat reasonable now. This is a better Enter than the one me and Loop have had to deal with, that's for sure. This is an Enter I would actually talk to.

[MagikHorse]

Well, that's a thing.

UNVOTE:

My big question is why claim that you're a PR and not say what PR you are? That makes it feel like you're trying to avoid being counterclaimed or something. I see one possible reason for it, but I wanna hear it from your mouth.

[MagikHorse]

And that was the reason I was thinking of, although on the other hand you're also fairly likely to die tonight if you're being honest and the scum will know the full setup by Day 2 should they attack you anyways. Still, either you're good at bluffing things or that was your thought all along. I'll presume the latter unless evidence comes against it and let the scum worry about taking you out.

With about 18 hours left to the day though, there's not much left to do but take out Loop here unless there's enough support for a lynch on Muh, and I'm not seeing that happening right now. Someone also said Munch was a possibility, but I'm not seeing that one right now either and don't support lynching there right now.

I'll likely vote Loopdan in a moment, but the votecount in the first post is out-of-date and I want to make sure that wouldn't be a hammer with time on the clock.

@Mod Would you mind putting the next (or last) votecount in post 0? The votecount currently there is pretty old at this point, and it's important to know where things stand this late into the day.

[MagikHorse]

Yeah it's not a hammer. Nobody else has moved votes since the last votecount besides me removing mine from Elements.

VOTE: Loopdan

This is L-1, but let's not be too hasty with it.

Prepostedit: I'm sitting here saying "This is it, there is no alternative with enough backing" and you just have to take it that way huh? I swear you could build a castle out of the amount of shade you've been throwing out.

[MagikHorse]

What I think you're doing is getting yourself stuck in tomorrow's rut, but alright. We'll just have to see what happens at any rate.

[MagikHorse]

@Magichorse:
I will be fair and say it: Due to timezones my last chance to be online here is in roughly 4 hours and then I will definitely vote Loopdan if nothing drastic happened until then, which would be right now a hammer. Sorry, can't delay it for longer so please consider it.

I don't get what you're trying to get me to consider here, unless you're telling me to unvote so you don't hammer in 4 hours and end the day then or push elsewhere? Out of those two the latter seems more likely given the context, but I can't do that sort of thing alone either.

[MagikHorse]

@Skellen

, if you are here beforehand and want me to unvote, I'll be keeping tabs on the game all day. As long as I have about 30 minutes of warning I can pull my vote off and let you hop on in my place instead with no problems.

[MagikHorse]

So you read Munch as scum through PoE?

[MagikHorse]

A final list of reads with some explanations would always be helpful.

[MagikHorse]

Let's not fight things out like this, mmkay? No need for any more hostilities.

[MagikHorse]

Jeez guys, get a room.

I had lost track of how many hours were left. Had no idea how else to avoid to cut off the day too soon with a premature hammer. Then nevermind, I will hold my vote back until tomorrow morning by deadline, if it should still be necessary by then.

I'm sure there's no shortage of hammers available, but you can never be too sure. Still, the timer in post 0 near the votecount is live and accurate, even though the votecount itself is out of date. If you need to check the time either check there or ISO Nauci and look for the latest votecount.

@Enter and Loop Just knock it off, for reals. This fight is downright childish.

[MagikHorse]

Nobody seems to have anything left, so at this point just hammer away whoever is available.

[MagikHorse]

Magik, why didn't you push for a Muh lynch at EoD after Elements claimed?

Mostly an overall lack of time in two different ways. Today's been pretty busy for me despite (and partially because of) the snow, preventing me from having enough time to dedicate to creating and supporting such a push on my own, not to mention an incredibly high chance of failure trying to redirect a lynch in the final day. Last time I tried to do something like that it failed terribly (on a claimed Hated role that was contributing nothing to the Town, with only one other chance to off him before MYLO/LYLO), resulting in a nolynch that we don't need and can't really afford right now in a game with such a screwed up and messy day.

Support was also a problem, which I acknowledged earlier in . Elements could possibly have happened since there were 4 people there and a 5th that was willing to hammer before the claim that made them less likely, but nobody was willing to throw a vote out in Muh's direction barring me, you, and Thespio. I probably should've called out their post 936 though, which is a bit too overeager to see you flip even if Muh thinks you'll flip scum, but I don't think that one post alone is going to change the whole town's attitudes just like that.

So, tl;dr I had no time today to make a push I knew there wasn't enough support for, and the endeavor was just altogether too risky. Also then I'd have to deal with Enter yelling my ears off and getting in the way like he did in post 888 (a hindrance to the pressure on the Elements slot because he's way too resistant to the possibility of the lynch being anyone but you), and I've quite frankly had

enough

of that for today as well. I'm sure you feel the same as me in that regard.

[MagikHorse]

Support was also a problem, which I acknowledged earlier in 899.

EBWOP

[MagikHorse]

That kill was nothing to write home about, but the flip means we're gonna have to be careful around any other PR claims, since there's a distinct possibility that a Tracker or Doctor claim might not necessarily be legitimate if we're in column C.

Regardless Muh doesn't look good here supporting Loop's lynch so wholeheartedly and eagerly with so little to add to it.

VOTE: Muh

[MagikHorse]

That's a good place to start. I'm just at work and can't really do so from here, so Muh will have to do until I get off.

Meanwhile Enter has a whole lot of thinking to do, since that town flip breaks everything he once thought to be truth.

[MagikHorse]

I'm actually really surprised no one else is questioning their read on Enter after those flips. I'm not sure what that means yet but I'll think on it a bit more.

And you think Enter as scum would take command over the entire day with a deathtunnel that was doing nothing but dragging all the attention of every other player to focus down on exactly himself and Loopdan for a single mislynch? This is the riskiest play I can imagine for scum to attempt, especially so early into Day 1 when it all began. He's lost a whole bunch of credibility for sure, and I'm definitely gonna filter every single word he says to see if it makes any sense whatsoever, but being severely off-base doesn't make him scum, and neither does being incredibly irritating to work with to the point where nobody wants to mess with you in fear of being yelled at.

What he said in his last post is true though. PoE only confirms things if it's mechanically impossible for it to be anything else (e.g. through power roles confirming townies, or sometimes hammer testing). Otherwise it's all too possible that scum has slipped into your townreads and your PoE is wrong, which is always a possibility. I don't like that you're acting like it's 100% confirmed fact here.

[MagikHorse]

I do want to see your case on him though. That'd be exciting, especially if it's not just PoE.

[MagikHorse]

Also, why not mention Muh as "confscum"? Your PoE pool contains him too, not just Munch.

[MagikHorse]

That hurts Enter, whether you meant to drag me into that or not.

@Skellen Why exactly do you believe that Thespio is aligned with Loop? I've either forgotten the details or you've never fully explained it.

[MagikHorse]

Thanks Skellen. Sorry for making you repeat himself, but I guess it didn't stick in my head the first time. Then again day 1 was insanely wild, so there's that.

Mostly I want to see Muh check into the thread and get an explanation for RCE's "wagonomics" read. I've never heard of that before, and I'm not buying it without a serious explanation.

[MagikHorse]

So basically a Magik/Thespio have the power to end the day at that point in the game, which Enter has been calling for.

Calling myself out a bit here, but wouldn't it be a reasonable play then to elongate the day to look more town, or do you think a scum!me and scum!Thespio just ends it there early anyways because Enter is crying for an immediate lynch?

Magik had more wiggle room the either munch or Elements which was my Poe at the time but I think it kind of solidifies with Elements flipping as town.

What exactly do you mean by "I had more wiggle room"? More wiggle room to do what exactly?

[MagikHorse]

I'll post more stuff tonight but since I don't want to be prodded so here's a short bit of what's to come.

While I accused Loop of pocketing Magik D1, I think the case may be that Magik was pocketing Loop. Magik then conveniently voted for Loop while still defending him. More on that tonight!

What exactly does me pocketing someone under excruciating levels of pressure get scum!me again when they're probably just gonna die? Wouldn't it have been a much better idea to try and pocket Enter instead and stay off of his bad side, or another incredibly townie player?

Also, you act as though I had somewhere else to possibly be with my vote. I already said earlier that I would vote Loop if there was no legitimate alternative and enough information could be gained, and at that point the first was clear and the latter had been something I had been convinced of even as I dragged things out to get as much info as possible.

[MagikHorse]

Rough draft:

Town

Skellen
Munch
Thespio/Muh
===
Magik
RCE

Scum

This is weird for me cuz I think there's prolly only one scum between Magik/RCE, but that's where I sit atm.

You said yesterday that I was a townlean if Loop flipped town. What changed that opinion?

[MagikHorse]

Honestly I find it strange to say that scum usually hammers at L-1. Certain specific players might (example: Not_Mafia), yeah sure, but I find it hard to believe that scum would want to put themselves under the gun unless they thought they could get away with it. In the end it's all about how much they're showing about their true colors, unless it's for the win somehow.

Overall the thing that I'm getting out of this is that his townread on Loop might be manufactured so that he could slip under the radar and have an excuse to stay off the wagon in case people started looking at the wagon. I'm gonna have to look into his reasoning for that townread and see what works there, but just "not hammering when he could have" doesn't cut it for me if that's your argument here.

[MagikHorse]

Looking back, I'm not really seeing much reasoning behind Munch calling Loop town. I see her calling it gut once, and I see something about her not liking how that wagon formed (which is a valid concern tbh), and that's about it. I even see her agreeing on occasion with a few scummier points, but still overall leaning town for some reason.

Yeah, I have no clue what's going on with this read at all.

[MagikHorse]

Either I phrased it awkwardly or you got it wrong. I did't meant you, I meant muh.

Ah I see. Yeah, he kind of just exists in this game, he isnt a negative or positive influence, hes just here, avoiding the game. which to me is SUPER scummy, because no information is anti-town

He's been giving me vibes that he's been trying to hide or blend in for most of the game tbh. Having no real contributions on top of following the biggest, loudest mouth in the game doesn't help in that regard. And then he just goes after me out of nowhere, and it's wild speculation that's a total 180 of what he was saying yesterday, and without voting or pressuring me with it at all. For a first attempt at making a splash, it's overall underwhelming.

I don't see town motivations in lying so low and doing so little, and I almost have to wonder if he's trying to pocket Enter by following him so closely too. If so, it's pretty clearly working.

[MagikHorse]

When did I say that?

Forgotten post 630, you have. Surprised in this I am not.

[MagikHorse]

What is a WK point? Never heard that term before.

Also, I'll ask you the same question I asked to Muh: what do I gain by pocketing Loopdan, a player already under heavy pressure and a likely lynch candidate even when I first hopped in?

[MagikHorse]

Usually I see people actually spell "white knighting" out. Not used to seeing it initialized like that or attributed to points.

I was skeptical of the Loop case the entire time as something felt wrong about it to start, which I thought was pretty clear. It was ever only a mildly scummy lean to begin with, and I had scummier people to push like Elements and eventually Muh. Once I was forced to take a deeper look I started to see a mess instead of a case, and the more insistent the push got and the more Loop got called out for things I didn't believe pointed in a scum direction the less I believed that he was scum altogether, and who isn't scum is obviously town. In essence the harder Enter pushed, the less I believed in that case and all the more I believed in myself.

Will get to Muh's case in a moment.

[MagikHorse]

I clearly said I will post tonight. That was my morning prodge just to let y'all know I'm here. Also, how do you want me to go after you? Should I give you fair warning 2 pages in advance? That argument doesn't make sense to me.

Your post was basically an accusation, so I'd expect a vote there prodge or not. Also, that doesn't make your U-turn from Loop pocketing me to me pocketing Loop any less strange. If anything we both had moments of "pocketing" each other, with him liking some of my stuff and me liking some of his stuff. If its mutual and going both ways odds are a lot higher that it's just two people on the same wavelength, not a pocketing attempt from one side.

Also, the fact that your argument comes "out of nowhere" shows that people can't figure out your reads, which means you're hiding way too much. A full readslist from you is still well past due at that.

I strongly believe that there was scum on the Elements wagon

. The reason being that Loop had claimed VT in post 251. At the point it was no longer advantageous for scum to be on his wagon. If I was scum I would want to lynch another guy or force another PR claim.

This is honestly a goal for both sides, as scum want to find PRs while town wants pressure to figure out who is likely scum. Pushing only one person in a day is less effective than pushing several throughout the day phase, and that's usually how things run their course if a megawagon doesn't disturb the whole town and break that cycle of rising and falling wagons. I don't see how you think sorting additional players is scummy when that's what you need to do to win as Town, especially when I'm not the only one doing so as Thespio was alongside me and even in front of me for that whole time. If I'm guilty of this he's guilty of this, and yet you call him unreadable null and scumread me for it?

Sure it backfired, I'll give ya that, but Elements himself said the accusations against him were fair. If the man accused says the accusation is legitimate, then what is altogether wrong with me pushing him for those reasonable things? That's how every solid case gets going.

The first vote on Elements with a scumlean on Loop. At this point Loop had already claimed VT so it wouldn't be advantageous for scumMagik to push Loop anymore.

Spoiler:

Here's my readslist as it stands, now that I've finished reading and processing everything.

Skellen - Town
Thespio, Enter -Townlean
PvtUrist, muh316, Munchmellow, -Null Lurkers
Loopdan- Slight Scumlean
Elements -Scum

A lot of this goes without saying (Skellen has a really easy to follow line of thinking, Ptv, Muh, and Munch are all lurking) but my big ping right now is Elements.

Elements has posted very little to actually push the game forwards at all. Unlike Muh, Pvt, and Munch, they have a lot more activity and still don't have anything noteworthy to ask or poke at? For as much as my slot hasn't done much until I replaced in, this slot has done nothing all game to push things forwards and be proactive, and that concerns me even more than Loopdan does right now. If you want an "active lurker" this here's the closest thing we've got right now.

VOTE: Elements

If I'm thinking through the minds of scum, scum!Magik would have seen that a Loop lynch is inevitable, but instead of tunneling [Like me/Enter], he would branch out to other players so that once the Green flip happened he wouldn't be accused of the things I [muh] am being accused of. However, he continued to give Loop scumreads in the beginning. Then transitioned into a friend for Loop so that once he flipped green, we would see him as the only advocate of the town player. That would get him major townie points in everyone's book.

I was far from the only one to say that Loop was probably gonna flip green, so the argument that I'm trying to be the "only advocate" doesn't hold much water. Heck, it was a reason why the push on Elements happened. Besides, did you ever think of why I was shifting that direction with Loop or what caused that shift either? Betcha didn't.

This is also basically saying "you were pocketing Loop to look townier", which itself is questionable given how mutual it was between the two of us as I said above.

Then there's PR baiting which gets scumMagik to his desired goal of finding out our PR.

Spoiler:

My big question is why claim that you're a PR and not say what PR you are? That makes it feel like you're trying to avoid being counterclaimed or something. I see one possible reason for it, but I wanna hear it from your mouth.

And then the subsequent jump on Loop's wagon.

And you're saying I can't question a halfhearted claim? Just saying, there's a definitive scumminess when you avoid claiming your full role in this kind of game since it avoids counterclaims since any other town PR can't call them out if they're lying. I see where you're coming from, possibly trying to work the nightkill around their action, but there's town merit to questioning this as well.

And jumping to the Loop wagon was essentially me realizing that there was no time for pushing elsewhere. You even said the same thing when you asked Loop if he wanted me to risk a mislynch, so I don't know why you find it disagreeable. My vote could've been anybody's vote out of the several people willing to put him to L-1 there and it realistically would not matter one way or the other, so that vote means nothing in turn. If it wasn't me, it was gonna be someone else anyways.

[MagikHorse]

I'm still disinclined to believe that scum!Enter would do such a massive deathtunnel and draw so much attention to himself Day 1 knowing that Loop would flip town. That doesn't really make his play good, since it definitely hasn't been most of the game, but his motivations aren't reading sour to me as much as overly eager to case people instead of thinking everything through.

[MagikHorse]

You pushed a PR to the point of claiming. "the fact they lynched a townie is super sketchy" actually wtf.

Let me just stop this right there. As I said in my response to Muh pushing on people gets more information about their alignment, and is generally a good thing to do if something is off there. The fact that it was a PR that was acting scummy and got pushed doesn't mean jack about the validity of the push, and Elements himself said that the points made against him were valid. This is not something you can hold against him like this.

His point is that you're townreading anyone who sided with you to kill Loop, and that is still pretty valid looking at your current readslist. Muh is actually a prime example of it in action, since you've said that Muh clearly had a reason to scumread Loop before your case pushed him into action, even though Muh never once put said reasoning out. It's altogether easy for anyone to say "Oh yeah, I totally believed this before your case", and I find it concerning that you just took him at his word.

[MagikHorse]

1. Elements wasn't acting scummy. He said things that sounded scummy, but he wasn't acting scummy. I have a feeling someone isn't going to read the whole thing that I'm about to say, will take that first sentence, talk about how THEY THOUGHT elements was scummy and then consider my entire first point defeated, just because that's how most of these engagements have gone so far. Why you shouldn't do that, is because this point is completely and totally irrelevant of whether or not elements was acting scummy or not, Thespio's point against me was that I pushed town to lynch and that somehow makes me scummy. My point in return, is that he pushed two town players, and one of them was a PR, so calling me on this is dumb.

What else was anyone gonna do to get some outside information going on here? There was no other "scummy acting" going on besides the lurking squad that wasn't going to respond in a decent timeframe to make the push worthwhile, which is coincidentally why the Muh wagon broke up Day 1. You're putting the blame on him for taking the only available road to try and get some better information on other players, which is overall not cool.

2. No, he's saying I'm scumreading anyone who disagreed with me, and that's an important distinction to make, because that's ACTUALLY wrong, and not just a correlation between my reads and what happened yesterday, as I previously pointed out.

The part two of point two here, is that you're ALSO wrong, because muh did provide reasoning for his read (spoilered later) and in addition, you're assuming that my town read is based on the fact that they agreed with me.

Muh's reason is a very, very lackluster "I think it looks fake" with no explanation on why and "I agree with Enter on top of that". That barely qualifies as an explanation given how vague and easy to make up it is. Had he actually explained why it "felt fake" I'd be inclined to agree with you on that.

Also, you have yet to give us any information to the contrary regarding your reads. With a lack of information for why you read people as you do, we must fill in the blanks with what we see, and that's exactly what it looks like from the outside perspective. You have only yourself to blame for that by not explaining your reads basically at all unless you're tunneling them.

[MagikHorse]

Oh yeah, and "your play in general" is yet more Muh vaguery that hardly qualifies as an explanation.

[MagikHorse]

Who showed up to the game thread called someone town and then voted them? Please quote this for me because I'm pretty sure I've missed it.

Elements with this string of posts, although he technically voted Loop and then called him Town, not the other way around:

post 562 seems utterly irrelevant to anything. Can people stop letting loopdan waste time and lynch him VOTE: loopdan

i don't think you're scum.

I think you are town

but the lynch that will give us the most information when you flip. The rest of the conversations going on are the same thing that's been going on for two days and all it's doing is making people angry with the game

WAIT, WTF IS THIS. If he is town you get the same info as if he is town, how does this make any sense, can we all quickly evaluate Elements?

this was poorly worded it sould've been: "

i think loopdan is town

, but his lynch will tell us the most information"

The wagon came shortly thereafter.

[MagikHorse]

The first bit of 1066 is already being discussed between the two of you, so I'm cutting that piece out since it's no longer relevant.

Let me get this straight: You are drawing assumptions instead of asking questions, and you're blaming me for your failure? How does this add up for you?

Nice loaded question, but that doesn't do much to change the fact that you can't expect us to be able to read your mind. If you don't explain things you're just leaving yourself open to interpretation, which is your own consequence of not explaining them.

Take a moment if you need to to get over the arguments you've just been in/are still in, then please enlighten us on your reasoning instead of just tossing blame at us for misunderstanding your unexplained reads. That's honestly a better way to kill that off as an argument than arguing the validity of filling in your holes.

[MagikHorse]

I'm not asking you to read my mind, I'm asking you to ask questions if you have them, because I, also, cannot read your mind and know what you need/want more information on.

After dragging on the whole first day in a quest to get more information including detailed readslists, why would you think I wouldn't want this? Readslists are always better off with descriptions of why people are there or what has changed since the last time, with no exceptions I can think of. More information in general is better unless there's a reason not to put it out (e.g. suspecting that someone is a PR).

Either way, just prove us wrong if you can by explaining them. This argument is pointless and is only going to yield frustration.

[MagikHorse]

Can you please explain why Thespio's logic is circular to him in better words than the ones I used?

Why are you trying to get me to make your arguments for you? That's not my job.

Honestly though, you're both flipping out at each other and it's making it hard to keep up or understand much of it while also making my own posts between. It's starting to feel all too reminiscent of the Enter/Loop war, with neither side really capable of getting their points across to the other.

[MagikHorse]

Yeah, no dice Enter. Telling me to take his words and put them in a certain way only manipulates the result. That wouldn't be my case at all, nor would it be his. That's aside from the fact that I'm already having difficulties understanding everything going on in this muddy mess, and I'd rather not waste my time trying.

As I said you're both flipping out here, and I don't think either side is truly listening to the other fully.

[MagikHorse]

Yeah. The worst part is I'm tempted to TR him, but I hate positively responding to emotional outbursts like that or even encouraging discussions to be had in the manner we just had it.

I feel like people are looking to me to lead town again today (and maybe I'm off in this) but I really honestly don't want to after yesterday. I don't feel strongly in any of my reads, I can give basic explanations for them later, but my Thespio push is an attempt to sort. I was kind of hoping to see someone else take an angle on this and push it somewhere that made sense.

Yeah, I don't think anybody really wants you to lead town today after yesterday. It's very true that another push like that will likely decimate Town's chances of ever winning this game, and just the one day we've finished has kind of left the town in a state of nullisms and weak cases since people didn't get sorted properly throughout Day 1.

Still, I think that both of you are town and this shakeup doesn't really affect that even if I really don't like you (as you correctly surmised).

[MagikHorse]

In regards to RCE's slot. I know this isn't really considered AI in general, but I think pvtUrist replaced out intentionally to clear out his slot. I looked at his post history and he's been active in his other games, even leading up to his replacement. I've seen this strategy used a couple times by scum who replace out their slot once they get pressured. They think it gives their replacement a clean slate to work with.

Tying this in with RCE's initial self-scumread, this looks like an attempt at "cleaning" a slot that was heavily scumread.

You're correct that merely replacing out isn't AI. That being said it is still odd that he was being active elsewhere, which is something I noticed myself during that timeframe where he was being replaced, since I kept checking who was online and doing things waiting for responses every now and then when things were slow. I have no clue how valid that strategy of "cleaning their slot" is, but it speaks to some sort of shenanigans or a case of being overgamed. The question is whether it's scum indicative or him realizing he was in too many games already and had to cut something to keep his level of activity up elsewhere, which is easy to ask and difficult to prove.

In my mind, that is the perfect pocket. Scum pockets town so hard that the townie starts to advocate for scum.

And in the end all I get is a townread from a corpse by doing so. I lose all future value if he dies, which in turn makes him a poor choice to follow if getting someone in my pocket was the plan. It's a whole lot of work with a whole lot of risk to it for very little gain.

Also, do you think it means anything that we both ended up doing something along those lines to each other? Do you think it means anything that he was "pocketing" me for so long before I ever returned the favor and tried "pocketing" him back? I'm curious to know.

The pity posting by Loop was fake and you even called him out for it. I didn't think I would have to further explain that one.

It's also really convenient that it was both easy and the only thing you had at that time besides copycatting Enter. It makes it sound like you didn't really have anything before and just decided to hop on and ride when it looked like a good lynch target. Loop called it opportunistic in 266, and I can't help but agree that it's a really easy case to jump aboard off of such an easy reason and ride to the finish.

At that point I didn't know we were going to pressure someone to PR claim. Once I saw the PR claim, I felt that the elements wagon has a higher chance of having scum because they don't want to lynch the VT. They'd rather force more claims to narrow down their night targets.

Would this have been different if Elements claimed to be a VT instead? If the answer is yes, you need to reconsider exactly why this is your focus at all.

Also, why is getting this claim bad for the town when they could've just as likely been scum as a PR? We can't ever find scum without pressuring people to this point after all.

[MagikHorse]

I wouldn't say good job, the cases made against me are made out of plastic held together with Play-Doh.

Honestly I think his problem is that he's not actually giving enough effort to this game, if his own words are to be believed. Either he's lazy town poking at whatever mild surface level concerns he sees and not considering what they might mean all that well or he's lazy scum trying to slip by with minimal effort by staying on Enter's good side. Either way, something needs to give there.

Like, I get that people are scared of me, but it all seems to be a combination of "he's good" and "he tried to pocket Loop", the first which isn't a reason at all and the latter which seems pretty sub-par for scum!me if you consider the alternatives (primarily in pocketing the much less at-risk Enter) and doesn't really fit with the former. It feels more like paranoia than an actual case, especially since both pieces don't fit together nicely.

[MagikHorse]

Here's the response to that.

Spoiler:

Yes, the argument he made was convincing enough for me to solidify my vote on him. If I see a strong case, I'll evaluate it and if I agree I'll go with it. It's how I always play.

This is just sheeping still. This does nothing to counter Loop's original point that it was a convenient wagon for you to hop onto.

[MagikHorse]

I don't think "scared" is the correct word.

I'd like to see town play from magik and RCE today.

I'd like to see town play from you too.

[MagikHorse]

And if "scared" isn't the right word, then what is? Paranoid?

[MagikHorse]

I'd like to see you have reads and push them.

And "frustrated" might be a better word.

I have a scumread on Muh and am actively pushing things on him and countering his points against me. What more do you expect right now?

[MagikHorse]

Experience doesn't have anything to do with being overwhelmed or losing interest.

Or becoming extremely irritated with a specific player that shouldn't be lynched at this time.

[MagikHorse]

Experience doesn't have anything to do with being overwhelmed or losing interest.

Or becoming extremely irritated with a specific player that shouldn't be lynched at this time.

The chance that he, also has hurt feelings over my play is very slim, I think, due to his posts showing no frustration with me. Your speculation here, therefore, is unnecessary. I'm sorry you got offended that I was wrong, but I feel like there's a bit of a double standard here in that you, also, were wrong, and you, also, helped push a Lynch while I insisted they were town.

Due to all of this and the fact that feelings have barely any place in mafia, may I suggest that we stop taking potshots at each other and win the game so we can both forget the other exists?

That wasn't about him as much as myself as a decently experienced player who feels this way. You took this as referring to him, even though it was never meant to.

Still, I'm more offended that you're repeatedly refusing to listen than being wrong. Town will blunder about, make mistakes from time to time, and overall be wrong and I blame nobody for that. Doesn't change the fact that the fewer interactions we have between each other, the better.

[MagikHorse]

A single thought's been hammering away at my mind on the work floor, and it's that there's been a lot of casing that seems to boil down to "X is scum, most likely with Muh". If so many people are likely scum with Muh, then why are we not flipping him to knock out the others that don't work out well with any other scumbuddy and give ourselves a good shot of catching scum today? Worst case we lose a townie that isn't contributing much reasoning at all and is scummy right before 5-player LYLO, all while narrowing down the list of potential scum.

[MagikHorse]

A single thought's been hammering away at my mind on the work floor, and it's that there's been a lot of casing that seems to boil down to "X is scum, most likely with Muh". If so many people are likely scum with Muh, then why are we not flipping him to knock out the others that don't work out well with any other scumbuddy and give ourselves a good shot of catching scum today? Worst case we lose a townie that isn't contributing much reasoning at all and is scummy right before 5-player LYLO, all while narrowing down the list of potential scum.

The "worst-case" mentality isn't very pro-town don't you think?

I don't really see that as pro-town or anti-town, although I might see it as overthinking things. If you never judge what happens if you fail though, then how can you properly judge the risk of anything? It's always important to look at both sides of the coin, and quite frankly I don't believe you can be allowed to reach MYLO or LYLO as you stand with so little from you, as you'd be an even bigger risk there. More on that below though.

How comfortable are you going into LYLO?

Not one bit. Day 1 screwed things over too badly, and now we're facing a bad information shortage since neither Loopdans flip nor Elements flip actually cleared much of anything up.

Also, can I please get a reason of why I'm considered scummy. The only points I've seen so far are sheeping Enter D1 which I responded to and on D1 you even agreed that I made a valid point.

Mostly it's not so much what you're saying or doing, but what you're

not

saying or doing that's showing through scummy. You did basically nothing on Day 1 to push anything of importance and stuck to sheeping Enter and throwing shade on Loop, and you're still basically doing nothing on Day 2, lurking in the shadows and only popping out on occasion or when prodded to action. It feels like you're doing all you can to look like you're doing things every now and then, while in turn giving no valuable contributions to the town and playing things as safe as possible. This is honestly why you keep flipping up as a "possible scumbuddy" for literally everyone that keeps trying to play "find the scumteam before a scum flip", since there is just no substance to you in the end and therefore you fit with essentially everyone. Wise players know that effort is in and of itself not AI, but having too little effort towards doing anything productive is very much scummy and this shoe fits you.

That's aside from how badly your vote on Loopdan still reeks of convenience given how easy your explanation is to fake as scum. In that quote you linked I said I wouldn't blame you for falling for Enter's case, but I never said it wasn't convenient as all heck that you had the easiest reason ever before joining it (which I did call you out for in 1122 and 1134 and never got a response that actually answered this concern), following it up with basically nothing but the same shade that had me thinking of you as Enter Lite because of how single-mindedly it painted Loopdan as scum throughout the latter half of Day 1. Enter may have the benefit of pushing the deathtunnel, but you simply rode on it and then eagerly announced that you couldn't wait for the flip once the hammer fell.

I don't have a single clue how we could possibly take you to MYLO/LYLO with so little substance to you and such a high chance that you're scum trying to sneak under the radar here. You'd either be a liability as a poor player that's also lynchbait or scum we don't want making it that far. Neither is good under MYLO/LYLO pressure.

[MagikHorse]

Would still like to hear more from Magik. Have been rereading you today and can't help but notice that you were so far only focused on muh and defending yourself (to be fair, you were actually accused greatly by muh) or the typical banter with Enter. Tbh I have no clue where you are standing right now. I share the suspicion towards muh, but how do you think about RCE now that he has been longer in this game? What about Munch and Thespio's behaviour today?

I meshed with Thespio twice during Day 1, with both times forming the Muh and Elements wagons respectively. There's a bit of closeness in that twice aligned thinking that's honestly still sticking around even now. Even ignoring that I don't really see the issue with Thespio beyond a couple of awkward posts that make up a very small fraction of their large postcount. I'm honestly don't care about his spat with Enter since Enter is just generally the kind that gets into arguments easily and throw things around, and I'm honestly not convinced of anything from that. Nothing is really changing here to make me lower him.

I don't like that Munch is still teamhunting (which quite frankly was what I was thinking about at work regarding post 1175), but otherwise they're kinda just there not really doing much akin to Muh. I don't think their case on Thespio is all that strong. Slipping a bit into scum territory, but with the benefit of not looking like a sneaky snake like Muh does.

Skellen is doing some of the same things as Munch regarding teamhunting, but is far more actively engaging things and trying to sort things out. Keeps quite a fair bit of their towniness from early Day 1 on top of that.

RCEnigma speaks a fair bit of sense. I can't townread someone off of simple sensibility, but I do for trying pretty solidly to figure things out, with 1141 being one of the only things I'm not really agreeable on. That post feels like Thespio's early Day 1 "just lynch me" thinking, which is one of those Thespio bad posts, although I can see it as a bit of frustration from both parties. I still don't understand their wagonomics read as of yet, but otherwise read them as town for trying to sort out everything else.

You should already know my thoughts on Muh and Enter, as they're plenty clear.

Skellen, Thespio - Town
Enter, RCEnigma - Townlean
- Null
Munchmellow- Slight Scumlean
muh316 - Scum

[MagikHorse]

Take a look at it from a scum perspective. Why would a scum player ever wagon on a town player hard and put a target on their back? If I was a newbie with a join date of January 2019, this would make perfect sense. I've been on this site since 2009. If you look at my meta where I've played scum, I'm a lot more active since the role is much more exciting. When I play town I do tend to relax a bit and go with the flow.

In addition, all the cases against me point to my D1 activity where I was dead set on lynching Loop. If you consider my D2 activity, there's a contrast because I'm no longer tunneling.

Your meta is something I still need to look at at some point tbh, if only because taking somebody at their own meta knowledge is foolishness. Even then, if you're familiar enough with your own meta to say things like that, you're also knowledgeable enough to fake it, as someone could argue about my own claim earlier that I usually defend people when they're being scumread hard and the alternative isn't being properly argued. Same thing applies to that.

Either way I've got too much to process and think about right now, and I want to hear some other voices besides just Enter, you, and me. I'm still not thoroughly convinced of your innocence because it still looks like you were staying low to stay hidden, but I'll admit that I'm probably a bit tunneled and need to give things a fresher look. For now though the TTT server I staff on is busy, and I have to keep the peace there.

[MagikHorse]

UNVOTE: in the meanwhile.

[MagikHorse]

I think I'm more or less coming to the conclusion that Day 1 has boned me so badly that I don't have a friggin' clue what is going on with most anybody anymore.

I can't argue too badly with Enter shielding Muh, mostly because I did so with Loopdan and Thespio for a short time. Doesn't mean I'm gonna respond though.

[MagikHorse]

I really don't want to get into another wall war with you if I can avoid it, or generally interact with you at all to be honest, but this is something I think I need to hear regardless of my feelings on the matter.

I've been doing more thinking on the workfloor at exactly where things get left off if I ignore Muh as a possibility, and that essentially leaves me with a POE pool of Munch and RCE. As I see it RCE is the only place where the two of us have any sort of overlap at all.

[MagikHorse]

considering it's 17hour left

Holy carp I forgot how fast these things move nowadays. I thought we were only halfway through the day phase, but you're right: time is running very, very short.

I guess that's what happens when your other newbies were the older variety with 2 week day phases.

[MagikHorse]

I recognize how crappy that is, I wanted to fix the problem of today being a whole bunch of weak arguments and general confusion and try and get everyone on the same page, but honestly it's more work than I'm willing to try to invest in <16 hours.

For once, I feel you here.

[MagikHorse]

Nobody's around tonight somehow, but the timer is late enough that I should be able to post before I leave for work and throw my vote down then if needed.

Hammer needs to happen on somebody though, whether it be Muh or RCE. Don't think anyone else can really happen.

[MagikHorse]

I don't think we've got any other option left at this point. Muh is the only one with 2 votes and enough people willing to hammer him down.

VOTE: Muh

[MagikHorse]

There are 6 people, so we need 4 to hammer. You're at L-3 for now, not L-2. Stop worrying about quickhammers, because they're not gonna happen rn.

Even then, I take it that Enter has reread a lot of things given how he's come in swinging, and on Muh? Mind explaining the change from defending Muh to pushing him? Anything else you've thought about overnight than just Muh?

[MagikHorse]

If we sit out and nolynch today, Enter just dies and that's probably about all that happens so that's not gonna help us. This town is hyper boned at this stage in terms of useful information. I personally spent too much of my Day 2 time pushing Muh and only occasionally asking questions or defending my townreads (looking at Thespio there). Today I still don't know all that much, and I spent the night phase ignoring the game and trying to calm down, relax, and de-stress so I could actually focus today. I still don't know where to begin sorting out this entangled mess.

This is basically the meme route here. RCE has already placed down a vote, so unless RCE is scum there's no way scum isn't gonna quickhammer this anyways at this point. Might as well live a little.

VOTE: Muh

Quite frankly if we lose here Town was never gonna win this game anyways. Day 1 was devastating due to the Enter/Loop tunnel distracting everyone, losing our strongest (and maybe only) PR N1 was similarly devastating, and yesterday's nolynch was devastating on top of that. This town is bloody well thrashed already if it ain't Muh.

[MagikHorse]

Wait a moment. Is RCE voting Muh or Munch? Their vote is kinda weirdly split down the middle between the two.

[MagikHorse]

I find a Doctor claim heavily unlikely, as the only way for there to be a Doctor is if Elements jailed them and the Doctor therefore didn't stop the kill or WIFOM'd themself into thinking the Mafia wouldn't kill the obvious target and waste their night action (or the Roleblocker blocked the Doc, but then why isn't the Doc dead? That line doesn't work out right).

Tracker is a maybe, but even then it's easy claimspace for a Goon to pull off to drive Town towards a mislynch since it can't be counterclaimed in a 2 Goon setup with a Jailkeeper. Heck, I'm pretty sure this was on Elements' mind given that they let slip that they were either a JK or Cop in post 898 ("So the mafia can't deduce the other PR. Unless they're both goons in which case they don't rlly care", insinuating that they were a role in a 2 Goon setup that had a chance to have no partner). I noticed that slip way back then, but kept my lips shut on it for obvious reasons.

Either way a Tracker claim alone isn't enough for me to believe their information so what's the point of worrying about it? If you flip Rolecop maybe I'd believe a Tracker claim, but right now I don't have faith in that as an option so it's not on my mind.

[MagikHorse]

I know you said no PR talk, but I had to shut down the "what if there's a Tracker to claim stuff?" excuse off entirely, and that does the job pretty darned well dont'cha think?

I never said I thought there was no PR. I just said a claim alone isn't enough to make it believable at this point in time, as there's only about a 50% chance of it being legit. This is a presumption you've made.

[MagikHorse]

Yeah, I've gotten that vibe off of you.

[MagikHorse]

Yeah, I've gotten that vibe off of you.

The self-indulgent one?

That and a bit of presumptuousness, yeah.

[MagikHorse]

I mostly believe Thespio's claim because I've been hard townreading him since Day 1 and never really got the case on him.

[MagikHorse]

I think I see where Enter is going with this (which is a first for this game). I wrote a small defense, but I think this needs to ride a little bit before I throw that out.

Still, after Munch posts I'd like to hear how Enter pegged Thespio as Tracker like this. I hope I don't have to explain why that pings me as strange.

[MagikHorse]

I think I see where Enter is going with this (which is a first for this game). I wrote a small defense, but I think this needs to ride a little bit before I throw that out.

Still, after Munch posts I'd like to hear how Enter pegged Thespio as Tracker like this. I hope I don't have to explain why that pings me as strange.

Yeah I guess it’s possible he’s a rolecop but I got no result on him, unless I guess the jail keeper thought I was susp, so I guess I could have been jailed BUT I do think he picked up on me when we clashed.

Did you get "no result" or "he didn't go anywhere"? Pretty sure there's a difference between the two.

[MagikHorse]

Yeah, you got jailed if you got No Result. The wiki clearly states that a Tracker that gets "No Result" when someone doesn't visit anyone is not Normal, and newbies are meant to follow Normal guidelines. That would be a mod goof if this isn't the case, but given that Elements was scumreading you it's altogether believable that you would be the nightly jail.

[MagikHorse]

Ok, Thespio claiming. This is actually why I wanted to push Thespio D2. Because I really can't believe all that D1 "better to lynch me than no lynch" and "I will hammer myself" when you are a PR! I don't buy this but am not finnished reading last pages.

So... you thought Thespio would claim Tracker since Day 2 and that's why you wanted to push him? Am I reading this right? If so, how did you come to the same conclusion as Enter? This requires a hefty explanation here, especially since it now makes you sound like a Rolecop even moreso than Enter.

Think about it this way: the Tracker is one of the weakest PRs in the Newbie setup. It doesn't help that it's paired with a Cop, Jailkeeper, or Doctor, all which are far more powerful and probably worth dying over to keep them safe. This post happened far before Elements was even close to being pushed or flipping Jailkeeper too. Doesn't make the post better since it's still pretty LAMIST, but gives some context behind it since Trackers rarely mean much of anything in Newbie games and just generally aren't that valuable. It's not an outside chance that a Tracker would off themself to prevent a nolynch if the situation ever arose.

tl;dr nice chainsaw. Mind not being scum for long enough to consider what anything you've said means?

[MagikHorse]

It's also interesting to me that Magik said its pretty unlikely we have a tracker claim and then thespio claims tracker and Magik is the only one to not ask questions.

I said there was around a 50% chance of one, not that it was "unlikely". "Unlikely" insinuates that the odds are significantly low, which is something you read into it earlier and apparently still are. Akin to yourself Thespio is one of the few players I'd believe a claim from, albeit because I thought he was strongly Town instead of your PR read based on seeking information.

That aside, if I know I'm town and I'm the only "sensible scumbuddy" for Thespio and believe him to be town as strongly as I do, then why should I not believe him? At that point I'm town that has already found town or scum too deep into it to back out. Questioning it is essentially out of the question from my perspective and therefore means nothing.

That's already aside from how silly the Thespio/Magik accusations are to begin with. Not to steal the case from RCE here but totally doing so anyways, we're the ones that actually tried to push a counterwagon on Elements instead of trying to end the day, which RCE called out in 992 and 993 in better ways than I. If we're scum, why go out of our way to create a counterwagon instead of just shutting the day down like you wanted us to? Doesn't Thespio pushing for this extra information just support a PR!Thespio even more in the same way you figured he was a PR to begin with? Doesn't defending Thespio so hard only give me up as a scumbuddy when I should reasonably be keeping my distance?

Munch, on the other hand, has said little about Muh overall, and is either vague about it ("It's not about their posts, it's their general play", or "It's not what they're saying but what they're not", directly parroting my earlier case on Muh). She never really even considered Muh at all until it looked like Muh was in hot water, which feels like distancing followed with some bussing for towncred once she discovered that Thespio was unlikely to eat rope as intended (although I'm not gonna question being late and missing the hammer due to IRL things. As a general rule questioning IRL events is a dick move, although I still wonder just what they thought a claim was gonna reveal so late into the day with no time to swap off).

That's on top of the total lack of consideration given to Thespio's claim, immediately writing it off completely and entirely. I get skepticism, but they're downright saying "oh, he was lying, let's lynch him", which isn't something I think Town ever says outright regarding a fuzzy claim and is merely an attempt to discredit it instead of actually debating its validity. Town considers claims, even if they're not guaranteed claims, not just write them off instantly like this.

[MagikHorse]

Glad we waited for munch response, I would have felt uncertain if we hadn't seen a second defense of him as town.

And yeah I agree that there's a lot of stuff that went wrong here, but things go wrong and people make mistakes. I think game is probably solved.

I pretty much saw Munch's defense coming too, hence why I suspected you wanted them in particular to come out of the woodwork and show their true colors.

Honestly not bad for a town that wound up losing its best PR N1 and nolynched D2 though.

[MagikHorse]

Agreed, not that my stance is already blatantly clear.

[MagikHorse]

Thespio was clearly talking about you admitting to the town that you are scum, not you calling Thespio out as scum. This goes to show how blind you are regarding him right now. Same thing with your callout on him "pocketing Enter", which doesn't really indicate much of anything.

In the end it all comes down to Enter and RCE making their choice, and causing chaos doesn't help them at all and only aids the scum. Both of you need to stop this 1v1 and let them make their call on their own terms.

[MagikHorse]

Both of you need to stop this 1v1 and let them make their call on their own terms.

[MagikHorse]

You have this tendency of becoming another player's spokesperson.

If you remember earlier, I pointed out that this is essentially meta for me. Of course I could be faking that, but twice? Seems a bit risky as scum.

And not defend my case for why Thespio is scum? I know your his scum partner so it would be in your best interest that everybody believe his claim.

At this point you're making more of a mess than anything else. Enter has politely told you to stop confusing him with this sort of discussion. Now I am too.

All you're gonna be doing is talking yourselves in circles, just like Enter/Loop and Enter/Thespio before that. Neither of you are in a position to reconsider the other, so discussing things between you is just distracting riff-raff.

[MagikHorse]

both of these scum teams were pretty relaxed during the big portion of the game

What exactly are you calling "the big portion of the game" here? If it's Day 1 in general, then I think the reason why would be pretty obvious.

I might have voted Thespio early in the game had I been there since it was the first really big oddity, but of course I wasn't ever going to so long after that fact or after mind melding twice in a short timespan regarding Muh and Elements. If you're town mind melding with someone like that multiple times in a row, odds are pretty darned good that you've found another townie, hence his constantly high presence among my townreads beyond that point.

Munch kinda just fell by the wayside once the whole Muh/Magik war started. Didn't help that RCE's case on Munch was hard to read in general either.

[MagikHorse]

Even with Goon/Goon as a possibility, it's been pretty solidly established that Thespio has been playing like a power role enough that Enter detected those signs and called him on it. Either this is something Thespio had planned from the beginning of the game and put into their play so subtly that it got Enter thinking it or it's simply true to begin with.

Therein lies a point: it's nearly impossible to fake a PR's playstyle so subtly without underdoing or overdoing it (which either makes it unnoticeable or so blatant as to be useless), and doing so requires an exorbitant amount of skill. It makes no sense for Thespio to simultaneously be playing really awkwardly/poorly and with the near godlike skill and subtlety necessary to fake the minute signs of being a PR in this manner. Him being a legitimate PR is the only real way his play makes much sense, despite its weaknesses and the chance of 2 Goons.

[MagikHorse]

Everyone else had me middle of the road, as scum does a claim benifit me if it guarantees I’m on the chopping block?

But it doesn't put you on a chopping block. There is no way to prove you are fakeclaiming. No way town would kill you, specially because muh was scumread. I was the only one who scumread you and even I am not gonna vote for you. Because yes, you could be town PR and I might be biased because I scumread you before the claim and because I don't agree with you on a self-sacrificing topic.

I still remember you saying "oh, he was lying, let's lynch him" (post 1348). You were eager enough to try and put him on the chopping block earlier as proven by that, and now you say he's not on the chopping block at all? Why the sudden change of heart?

[MagikHorse]

The only thing that would help, I think, at this point is if everyone cased their largest suspect and who they think their partner is - don't bother responding to each other, I think, and try and keep word count to a minimum. I'm trying to gauge some things that ... would help if I didn't have people arguing semantics in the thread.

Also, Thespian, walk me through the basic thought process for all your major actions this game, and munch walk me through your thought process for an end of day Lynch where you have two wagons at l-1 and you're the deciding vote

I'll get to why once I'm home, but it's very obvious that Muh is my #1 suspect and Munch follows easily behind as their partner.

[MagikHorse]

The only thing that would help, I think, at this point is if everyone cased their largest suspect and who they think their partner is -

don't bother responding to each other, I think

, and try and keep word count to a minimum.

I'm trying to gauge some things that ... would help if I didn't have people arguing semantics in the thread.

So much for this huh Enter?

I originally scumread Muh for their general lack of contributions and shadiness. Their Day 1 was utterly useless without any significant contribution whatsoever to the Loopdan wagon he joined aside from aggressive shading on me and Loop. Day 2 saw his case on me built around farming "townie points" while generally missing the town and meta side to my actions, which might ping me more than others as the one he was trying to case but now comes off as even stranger as he "liked my defense" and yet is still leaning on this same argument and vagueness. Now on Day 3 he has a claimed guilty on him, and even ignoring that is causing chaos all over the place by riling up Thespio (who keeps responding for who knows what reason? An urge to not let him get away with it?) while chasing after a Thespio/Magik scumteam which is essentially impossible since that team could easily have ended the game early Day 3 via an arranged quickhammer (and the same thing applies to Thespio/RCE).

Munchmellow is in a similar boat, and I went over most of it in 1360. To summarize Munch also gave no really notable contributions during Day 1 or 2, but with the added downside of not ever really bringing up or talking about Muh outside of their readslist and being vague regarding her reads on him altogether. On top of that she popped right out of the gates to his defense via a chainsaw attack on Thespio on Day 3, insinuating a scum connection between her and Muh. Recent developments have added what I said in post 1443 to the potential scumminess list, since she wanted to kill Thespio earlier for his "fakeclaim" and has suddenly backpedaled and said that Thespio is no longer on the chopping block, although I'm waiting for a response on this accusation.

Apologies if this is bigger than you wanted. If you've got any further questions, feel free to ask.

[MagikHorse]

I am also very frustrated with his fakeclaim which is why I'm causing this chaos.

Scum wants chaos and confusion. Town wants to sort things out. You are not doing the latter here, and Enter has had to repeatedly try to cut off discussion between you two so he can get through the former which you've been promoting.

We were both on though, as you can see by the posts, so not really

No you weren't.

There's still a window to quickhammer while both of us were on, as small as it may be. Alternatively, I don't vote at all until the quickhammer is set up for the lynch to avoid scaring Enter off and avoid drawing concern to it. Either way proves a similar point that this is unlikely at best and impossible at worst.

[MagikHorse]

We'll just have to see what Enter and RCE have to say about it then, won't we? Game's in their hands, not ours.

[MagikHorse]

Nice work to Thespio and RCE.

I'm surprised Enter didn't mention possibly nolynching on D3.

He did bring it up, but as something that wasn't gonna happen, fearing his own death with no actual gain. Given how biased I was in favor of Thespio already, it wasn't gonna make a difference in the long run.

Either way I got totally bamboozled by Thespio here. I didn't expect me to match up so smoothly with scum in Day 1 like that, and I think the biases blinded me to too much stuff. Either way Thespio definitely took advantage of it, which sadly isn't the only time. I remember in Gamethrowing Mafia I also had a strong townread on the final scum (along with the entirety of the active members in the dead thread for all that goes).

Honestly though, Day 1 for Muh really was incredibly weak. Had it been stronger I would've likely given him more consideration, but a combination of no real contributions for a whole day and aggressive shade just doesn't look good for ya man, and by the time you started actually trying it was too little too late and I had it in my head that you were scum trying to slip by. You did at least get me to pause for a moment on Day 2 though.

Even then he real killer here was the nolynch. I was hoping Nauci would let it happen since Enter had recently voted them and he was clearly town's lynch for the day, but alas we were defeated by 6 minutes. Mistakes happen, hence why I was unwilling to press on Munch for her IRL reasons, but I'm still a little disappointed in that. Tough call from Nauci though, and I respect that. Had it happened, I likely would've had to reconsider everything I thought.

[MagikHorse]

I feel ya there Urist. I replaced out of my last Newbie game (where I was also ironically scum) for the same reason of illness. In much the same way, people asked around for a while saying "did he just quit due to pressure to force a reset?", but nope, it was all legit. Suspicion just comes from that sort of replace-out in general.

Funny thing is that RCE kept nagging at me in the back of my head. That should've been a sign, that I wasn't focusing properly, but hey we all make mistakes like this when things get down to the wire. This game in particular seemed full of mistakes in general, but at least that helps me sort out my weaknesses.

[MagikHorse]

Great play by everyone, I think. I'm sorry I was so mean to you, Magik, I think in another life we would have been friends. This definitely didn't feel like a newbie in any way.

You can say that again. This felt like a far more experienced game than anything that would otherwise be in the Newbie queue. The fact that I replaced into a Newbie slot as an SE-capable player probably didn't help with that, but even then those that were "newbies" played really well all things considered.

Skellen

in particular gets a hearty nod of approval from me for forcing the scum to kill them by being so universally townread and difficult for the scum to work with. Mad props to you.

I honestly think you and Muh were mostly scumreading my playstyle over anything else though to be honest, because I'm both extremely vocal and a bit of a white knight as Vanilla Town. Hard to say how I am as a PR or as scum to offer an alternative though, since the only scumgames I have here to offer are a Marathon game and an incomplete game where I replaced out early due to illness (as mentioned above). Only PR I've ever gotten was a Doctor that could only heal scum and was therefore just a Named Townie, which was a pretty unfortunate role to begin with.

[MagikHorse]

Even then he real killer here was the nolynch. I was hoping Nauci would let it happen since Enter had recently voted them and he was clearly town's lynch for the day, but alas we were defeated by 6 minutes. Mistakes happen, hence why I was unwilling to press on Munch for her IRL reasons, but I'm still a little disappointed in that. Tough call from Nauci though, and I respect that. Had it happened, I likely would've had to reconsider everything I thought.

Heh I ended up consulting with Penguin and 2 other experienced moderators before I made the decision.

I know. It's really not an easy decision to make, but sometimes deadlines have to be enforced even when the lynch is obvious. I don't fault you whatsoever for that call.

[MagikHorse]

So your big vote wagon case was all faked? No wonder why I couldn't understand that at all. Should've pressed you harder for that tbh.