Mafia Invictus Redux [Game Over]

[fireisredsir]

FIRST

[fireisredsir]

i got excited and forgot about the postcap

VOTE: VP Baltar

dw everyone i have a 100% read accuracy rate on this guy, and i can guarantee he is scum this game

[fireisredsir]

everyone who has posted so far is town, with the exception of dwlee (whose first post is nullishly scummy) and gamma (whose post i did not bother to read). please discuss.

why is gorilla town?

[fireisredsir]

everyone who has posted so far is town, with the exception of dwlee (whose first post is nullishly scummy) and gamma (whose post i did not bother to read). please discuss.

why is gorilla town?

the nft post is funny and my standards are low

can you tell me what is wrong with 22?

he writes for a living, so he has elite level reading comprehension and shouldn't ever have to read a post 4 times to comprehend it

he did also make a show of not reading things very well as scum in ktane so that he could talk to people about non-game-advancing things which is maybe what you're thinking

[fireisredsir]

he writes for a living, so he has elite level reading comprehension and shouldn't ever have to read a post 4 times to comprehend it

Not sure how serious this was but I found it funny

in my first game with vp he said that i wouldn't win a reading comprehension argument with him bc he writes for a living

i won

~

im kinda curious about the datisi votes, esp takotsubo's

[fireisredsir]

vp it feels like you're using a lot of your limited posts on things that are unrelated to alignment or moving the game forward

[fireisredsir]

Also, I think my questioning of datisi was actually fruitful, and understanding RR's post restriction is kind of important.

its literally in the setup post as an example that there won't be an Iambic-Pentameter Post Restricted role. that's clearly why he's doing it lol. sorry to ruin the joke but stop wasting posts speculating on this

my impression of when ur town is that ur kinda good at finding stuff out, but you don't have enough confidence in yourself and your reads, so i think ur mafia gameplay would be kinda similar? i dont think ive ever seen u as mafia before but i think its very possible u would avoid responding to votes because you don't want to make it a "big deal" and the focus of the game, i think as scum u dont want the spotlight even close to u..? i imagine you very timid as scum >.<

SO
i think ignoring the votes on u is scummy :>

i don't really think this is an accurate assessment of datisi as scum at all. have you read datisi scum games at all, and if not what made you come to this conclusion?

[fireisredsir]

i don't really think this is an accurate assessment of datisi as scum at all. have you read datisi scum games at all, and if not what made you come to this conclusion?

i havent seen datisi as scum at all and im not gonna meta read

i came to the conclusion because thats just how i think hes like, he gives very much vibes like hes doubtful in his abilities all the time to do stuff, am i wrong? i thought i remembered a game where he kept doubting his reads and going back and forth on them, but am i remembeing the wrong person?

mmmm maybe?? i just thought it was a kind of weird thing to jump on him for when i don't think thats my experience. i think he can be somewhat aggressive and annoyed in his responses to pushes on him actually as both alignments, but if anything moreso as scum. he does express doubt a lot but i don't think its timid its more like... fear of making big decisions lol. and as scum he might play that up a bit sometimes.

and like ok fine you don't have the same meta read as i do thats not scummy, but... i also don't quite get it cause like... you're saying that you think he lacks confidence as town and that you think his mafia game is similar... so why is him not responding to votes more likely to come from scum than town? like whats the difference there that you expect to see?

it sounds like you're saying "you're like this as town" -> "i expect you to be like this as mafia too" -> ??? -> "so the way you acted makes you scum"

and i don't get what the missing step there is

Why are you being the post police though? Do you really think 125 isn't enough for a single day?

i mean

1) no not really, maybe im projecting my own thoughts onto others here but like im concerned about keeping my posts more condensed cause ik i could easily go over 125 in d1 of a large. i might be safer than usual since im vla this weekend but still

2) its more of a point specific to you actually, cause like last time i played with you in lake melancholy (town) you came in aggressive and doing reaction tests and forcing the game to move forward whereas in ktane (scum) you were just kinda chilling and asking mech questions and not really pushing anything forward. and this felt way more like the latter to me, and it seemed especially weird to me that you would be okay with using limited posts on stuff like asking gamma when his last game was (you can easily check), the iambic pentameter stuff, etc... it just feels weird?? like im not sure why you think those things are important. ig if you're not worried about the post count then its less of an issue but idk i think you'd hit 125 in d1 of a large easily

[fireisredsir]

ok i checked and in the large normal 238 we both had around 170 d1

which is actually not as bad as i thought cause ik i had a lot of one liner posts and stuff

so maybe it's less of an issue than i thought actually. the point about what you're choosing to do with your posts still stands tho

[fireisredsir]

I don't really see why it has to be so, so, so hard for you to understand what im seeing... but okay!

datisi being town just seems more unlikely, i think theres more benefits for scum him to ignore the votes on him.. whats so hard to understand about it???

i feel like this doesn't really answer my question at all. you brought it up originally as a meta point. now its just about what would benefit him? like your thought process here is not very clear to me and you're not really explaining it

I was put off by you immediately talking about which posts pinged you town/scum.

first time ive heard "having reads" as a reason to scumread someone lol

[fireisredsir]

I don't really see why it has to be so, so, so hard for you to understand what im seeing... but okay!

datisi being town just seems more unlikely, i think theres more benefits for scum him to ignore the votes on him.. whats so hard to understand about it???

i feel like this doesn't really answer my question at all. you brought it up originally as a meta point. now its just about what would benefit him? like your thought process here is not very clear to me and you're not really explaining it

this is why i dont explain my reads much im always confusing
this wasnt even originally my stuff on him

LIKE I THINK THAT BASED ON THE PERSONALITY I THINK HE HAS, I WOULD THINK HE WOULD THINK NOT REACTING TO THE VOTES WOULD BENEFIT HIM AS SCUM. I THINK THAT IT WOULD BENEFIT HIM AS SCUM BECAUSE HE SEEMS LIKE THE TYPE TO BE A SLIPPERY SNAKE, AND NOT REACTING TO THE VOTES AND NOT MAKING A BIG DEAL ABOUT IT WILL MAKE IT SEEM LIKE HES COOL WITH IT, AND NOT MAKING A BIG DEAL OF IT = LESS SPOTLIGHT = LESS DOUBTING

ok i kinda feel like we're going in circles a bit. im not 100% following you tbh but i see at least that you're saying that it wasn't so much a meta thing and more a personality thing?? and that his personality made you think he would be more likely to act a certain way as scum? if i have that wrong feel free to correct me, i don't really want to drag this point on too much otherwise

i think my issue is that it doesn't really feel to me like your reasoning is something that would inform the read originally. it feels more like a justification tacked on after the fact, bc it feels more like "scum could do this" than "scum is more likely to do this".

and like luke pointed out, it wouldn't even really make sense for that to be your original reasoning since it wouldn't have applied that early one. that said, your response to him actually does kinda make it make more sense, if your original read reasoning was different and then you found more reasoning that you felt supported your scumread.

ig my question then would be why you didn't mention that original reasoning until now?

[fireisredsir]

other thoughts on recent stuff:

- i like the enthusiasm and proactiveness of kovu's read post, even tho i don't 100% agree with all of the reads i think it's still prob +town

- think lavar's 88 and 99 are p scummy... actually all the posts he's made kinda are? i like gorilla for voting there

- i like fey's posting so far, prob one of the more towny of the datisi voters. thought that the approach to using the wagon as a way to create more info was good

- luke... full disclosure my initial reaction to reading his posts was "yes! agree!" but then... idk, mild concern that it kind of felt like he wanted me to feel that way. like maybe its just a legit mindmeld? and thats why he had me as the only person he called town? but something about the way he voted Marci, and then after that, saying he hadnt seen it before, in 97 called out a post as sus when my response to it finding it suspicious was right there... something about the way that was framed just really bugged me. anyway. i feel like im probably still townreading here but. paranoia noted.

- marci's 106... i already talked about the response to me. i actually kinda like the responses to luke?? i was surprised by that, i didn't really expect to since i thought her responses to me were sus. but something about these feel kinda pure. despite that tho i feel like the responses to kovu's reads feel slightly performative, not really sure why she felt like it was important she comment on them

- dwlee 118 doesn't really feel like the dwlee im used to but i agree with most of it? so thats cool i guess

[fireisredsir]

The rules are more complex than Fire claims,
Since actually this role could be allowed
because there's one that disregards the rules.

So Fire, did you skip that, or assume
The mod would not use that specific slot
On what they said explicitly was banned?

val summed that up well with 74

but you are welcome to continue i don't mind the poems!!

[fireisredsir]

Exactly one role may have abilities that exceed this scope and violate the above guidelines.

He didn't mention this, which was my point.
Were you aware that this was in the rules?

-Reason

i did not consider the possibility that the stated role would directly go counter to the example stated. but you're right, as the rules are written it is technically possible

[fireisredsir]

Fire feels only slightly different. But it’s kind of like a flavor more than a substance change.

im trying to be more srs mode due to the postcap!! less fluff!

i think you kind of feel different as well, altho it's hard to say this early. do you think there could be a reason for that?

[fireisredsir]

I am not sure what you mean by this. I read up to post 85 (the most recent post at the time), and then started typing my big post. By the time I finished it, Marci made post 86. I was saying that I wrote the section about marci from my big post before post 86 from marci ever existed.

(And yes, I am aware that there is a long time between Marci making 86 and me posting 94. Mid post I kinda got lost in doing some meta on Kovu and some meta on Meuh that did not end up making the post because I kinda talked myself out of the point as I went).

the preview tool exists and you have been known to use it. idk, i think its just the way you phrased it, like "I didn't even see this post. She's definitely just scum" felt sort of... too self-descriptive? to me it kind of felt like you wanted to have some sort of progression on her so that it wasn't just all in one post, and so it looks like your read is continuing to develop as you see new things. i think there's clear scum motivation to doing that

its a pretty minor thing and yea maybe you didn't see the post in preview or maybe you didn't want to mention it in a pedit bc you wanted to quote it... but it is something that made me hesitant

[fireisredsir]

ok don't have as much time as i wanted to cause i gotta go soon!! but some quick points

takotsubo syndrome – ok this one is funny, I initially Town leaned Tako, like “oh, game has a really slow pace, but tako still made an entrance!! That’s good!!” but then that was it, and they jumped on the datisi votes with just “did you roll scum again” like, that’s it? What specific posts made you feel that way? If you wanted the RVS votes to be taken seriously, why not make up a reason at the very least?? So cause of that you lost your town lean - null

For me my vote was more of a reaction test on Datisi. Which obviously has a chance to be skewed, but I'm ok with it for what it produced.

In other news I really like 81. So currently I have a soft townread on that slot as well.

i kinda don't like this at all. always pings me a lot when people respond to someone who pointed out a suspicion on them with this tone. scum do it a lot, i kinda fell for it when morning tweet did it in ktane, i had suspected her early on and when she came back and responded to it she was all like "oooh I really like this point you made!". it just feels kinda manipulative and trying to get on the good side of someone who is suspecting you

So like, if anyone was truly concerned, WHY would you waste so many going "OMG postcap!!" that just feels really odd to me. Like, yeah I'm concerned myself, but like, at the end of the day if I hit it I hit it, and I'd rather not put all my thoughts into 1 unreadable block, but like, obviously I'm still maximizing posts but I'm not wasting posts to yell at people about it?? and shut down conversation..

idk! its something i was thinking about a lot and so i thought that other town would prob also be thinking about it. maybe they wouldn't, but in early game its as good as anything for something to look at. most of those posts also were about vp which like... the postcap thing wasn't even my main point there? it was just kinda something that made me notice in the first place that the things he was posting about were weird.

i think i did kinda overestimate how limiting the postcap would be tho esp since this game is not moving as fast as other larges and people are wallposting more. so. i guess its ok!! be free!! post everything!

~

still sus of marci, a lot of that early stuff about datisi is just... i have a hard time seeing it coming from a town mindset. but also like... no offense marci, but she seems clearly new. sometimes i have a hard time understanding the thought process of newer players. and like, i agree with the points for why she's scummy, but idk, some of the people jumping on her feel a bit opportunistic? and it sketches me out a bit. probably overthinking here but whatever

on the other hand i like the wagon on lavar and agree that p much everything they have posted so far is scummy. dueling lavar/marci wagons let's goo!!!

VOTE: lavar

[fireisredsir]

The latter; and in fact he did mess up.
But luckily we needn't be exact--
The point is just that there's an effort made.

lol I really have not clue what your post restriction actually is then other than posting short half sentences then because you are definitely nowhere near iambic pentameter at this point.

At least this is more readable!

im p sure that one is perfectly on meter actually mr english major

theyre just getting better at structuring the lines less awkwardly so it flows well

fire's reactions to the luke/marci stuff are pretty irrational...which means he's more likely to be town I suppose.

ok i was just gonna respond to this with a joke but then i thought about it and like

since when have you ever townread me for being irrational

[fireisredsir]

ah oops i meant to put this in one of those posts

semi v/la until monday night

will still be able to pop in occasionally but will not be at my usual activity level

[fireisredsir]

As to reading you as being irrational...uh, this is like every town game you have with me where you scum read me for nonsense, and then turn it around on similar nonsense. Like, the reason you're suspicious of Luke doesn't make much sense at all to me, but you do you son. It's exactly the type of paranoid without basis reasoning I have seen you direct at me before when you're town, so that's why I think it's probably +town points. I don't know if that mode of thought would really be easily fakeable as town because it is so off the wall.

idk it just kiiiinda sounds to me like you want to find me as town here and are trying to come up with a reason why. maybe im being not very generous here, idk. but im not really sure if the reason makes sense given previous reasons you've had

i feel like im probably still townreading here but. paranoia noted.

I felt this too. +town to fire.

can you explain the thought process you had? like put in your own words what you felt and why what i said resonated with that

I mean, why do you think the mafia team is discussing your identity? How did you get to that?

this seems like a weird point to pick on? like do you think this would mean anything for their alignment and if so why? idk why it would be more likely for them to post that thought if they were maf even if you don't think the thought process is logical to you

~

catchup notes

- oof i don't like anything cakez has posted. esp 197, like i disagree with almost every point made here. and the last time i remember that happening it was scum. and from what i read of his past play in large themes what he's done so far feels a lot closer to how he struggled to get footing as scum

- like dwlee's posting so far. prob one of my stronger townreads atm

- bell is... hm. not seeming super towny to me. but i think that if he's town then eventually he will seem super towny so im not v interested in pushing there yet. i don't think pressure will do a whole lot

- not very happy with the lack of... forward-facing content from takotsubo? idk how to phrase that. game-advancing? it all just seems kinda passive and responsive and like as a percentage of the words they've used, very little of it is used to put new alignment-relevant thoughts into the thread, or prompt anyone to make any further content. like occasionally they do have thoughts but nothing they've said really merits a response, and that feels floaty to me

[fireisredsir]

Bro, you gotta stop with this shit every game. It feels like groundhog day every time I'm in a game with you. Here is a good tell for you to know instantly if I'm town or not: if you scum read me for nonsense like not caring hard enough about post restrictions and not conforming to your view of what is a valid way to read people or ask questions, I'm definitely town. E.V.E.R.Y.G.A.M.E.

ok but thats like actually not true at all bc the scum pings that i did correctly get on you in ktane were from:
1) townreading me for meh reasons in a way that felt pockety
2) playing in a way that runs directly counter to what your usual motivations are as town (in that case, setting up dueling wagons d1 for info purposes, which you didn't want to do bc i was one wagon and the second wagon was your partner)

and i kinda feel like those are the same core reasons im feeling here

but ok ill drop it for now w/e

[fireisredsir]

datisi am i being unreasonable about vp here

[fireisredsir]

what are the "previous reasons" you're referring to here specifically?

in large normal 238, he scumread me mostly for pushing on him in a way that he deemed to be irrational, and then eventually townread me i think mostly for recognizing that yeet was softing and following along with it.

lake melancholy he mostly scumread me i think, initially due to me being boring but at times he would say i was making a ridiculous point about him and therefore i was scum (like, lol: viewtopic.php?p=13340840#p13340840). there were times when he expressed town pings but it was mostly due to like, lack of awkwardness, not making sense as a prism partner, and def not ever due to being irrational.

like idk maybe he saw that i was town in both of those and updated his reasonings for how to read me. i feel like my reasonings for how to read him have evolved as ive gotten more experience so maybe i should expect the same. i dunno something just felt a little off to me but i also don't really want to focus on it or spend forever arguing about it rn, there's other stuff to look at and ive been wrong before. just kinda wanted your take on it

[fireisredsir]

Can someone vig sircakez.

town

[fireisredsir]

- agree w/ gorilla on 267. oh and then on 272 and 273. nice nice, townlean gorilla
- takotsubo wagon is interesting and im a fan of this development
- not sure how to feel about the little mueh/lavar interaction there but making a note of it so i remember to look at it after flips
- wow y'all are kinda quiet, im gone all day and only 2 pages?

[fireisredsir]

ehhh mostly no? it's more of a gut read - Didn't really like his early posts, like wanting to cut through the bullshit of Rhyme & Reason but then going back to jokey nonsense asking Lavar if the original owner of the account was kidnapped rubbed me the wrong way,

and Datisi having a scumlist with a first 3 being <marci, bell, meuh> made me feel pretty good about pushing it when I feel like all 3 all were pretty good early votes

. His response to you about Luke/Marci is also way more convoluted than it needs to be and I have a hard time thinking that he typed that up meaning for it to actually be helpful to you or someone else in reading him.

bolded feels kinda... weird. your read on bell is related to datisi's scumlist why exactly? can you explain this more?

And lastly I think gorilla is town and Lavar feels slightly town to me too, and if you ask me I can iso them and make an attempt to turn "why" into words but GUT is what you get for now.

agree on gorilla but not at all on lavar. you don't have to like full iso but give me at least one reason or something that stood out as towny?

[fireisredsir]

These 3 posts felt town to me. Come across as v. natural

well that's odd, cause i feel exactly the opposite. like they come across stilted and unnatural and like they're having to force themselves to come up with content

Well these votes on me are a little odd, but ok.

why are they odd? you seem to be somewhat experienced, i would think you should know that you haven't really done much that's towny

[fireisredsir]

Not really, I sort of thought the same thing about Sircakez before wiping it from my brain because it was a thought unlikely to be acurate.
I was surprised when they came in and promptly didn't try.

why do you think this about cakez? it seems closer to his scum meta than town meta

[fireisredsir]

maybe this won't mean much coming from me since i often sus vp when he's town and therefore my credibility is shot but whatever i think its a point that needs to be made and nobody else is gonna do it

i was somewhat skimming earlier today and noticed that vp was being kinda aggressive and picking fights that he didn't really need to take if he were scum and etc., and i kinda thought hmm maybe it is just town vp

buuuut when i got a chance to read more thoroughly now i couldn't help but notice that all of that... came right after bell made 347... where he called out vp as suspicious basically for being too nice and not picking fights (since that is kinda vp scum meta). and then vp right away attacks kovu out of nowhere and starts acting all bluster-y with posts like 375 and 376

kiiinda think thats a little too convenient of timing for my liking

and i think a lot of his takes on recent pages are too bad to be real

VOTE: VP Baltar

[fireisredsir]

bell should not be a wagon, especially now

marci can be, altho she's been a bit better lately

lavar and/or takotsubo should be, don't think cakez' lhf point about lavar is a good one here

[fireisredsir]

ok if you want a list:

1) the whole thing with gorilla's poe list. should have better comprehension skills than that

2) your point about kovu was p bad and felt forced, like idk why you would feel that was important to discuss as town

3) saying scum!bell implies scum kovu and enchant. i don't think that team really makes sense under any scrutiny and there isn't really a good reason for you to think that it makes sense (feel free to explain if you do have a good reason, 377 doesn't count). it just feels like a made up thought to look like you're hero solving cause people townread that for some reason

4) i think 378 is a p weak interpretation of bell's posts

5) 391 can't be a real thought you had, there's no way

[fireisredsir]

yes

literally you asked me what bad takes you had and then when i told you what they were you reply with "well those are just takes that you think are bad"

like ??? what did you expect

[fireisredsir]

i wasn't gonna elaborate on them before you asked bc like you said its not super worthwhile to argue about that point and it isn't even a very significant one

but you asked so i answered

the obvious reason why having bad takes makes you more likely to be scum is that it does not display what looks like a town thought process from someone who is genuinely attempting to solve the game

[fireisredsir]

i spent 90% of the post talking about how you were taking action that i felt had scum motivation

then i had one line mentioning that its hard to see you as town anyway when you have bad takes that don't feel like town thought process

and then you ask me to expand on that one line and then when i do you jump on that and talk about how my suspicion is baseless because of something that it was never even based on

kinda hard to see that as town behavior

[fireisredsir]

like trust me i wish i was townreading you here i would prefer that

i don't even really want to push this very strongly bc im not that confident that im right and i keep doubting myself due to being wrong before but like

i also can't just ignore what i see

i don't think im just blindly walking into another incorrect scumread like you're portraying me as. ive thought about it a lot and i think my reasons are different and more accurate than previously

[fireisredsir]

It has dissipated, but my understanding is that is has done because others have not shared the vibes, gut-feelings, 'off-beat'; whatever you want to call them, that datisi himself told us on three occasions (60, 133, 146) we should have picked up, because he knows he was being off himself.

uh... no? i didn't join bc i don't think those awkward vibes are strongly AI. that is a very significant difference and im not a fan of how reductive you're being here

[fireisredsir]

i spent 90% of the post talking about how you were taking action that i felt had scum motivation

Bullshit! I can't walk away from such bullshit!

(This is probably why my blood pressure is so high irl, but I digress...)

You made a bunch of value judgments about my thoughts sucking, but almost no real explanation of scum motivation for the stances i was taking. The only possible explanation you gave is that you think I'm lazy scum who can't accurately fake scum hunting so I'm doing things you deem are "bad". I can't tell you enough how ridiculous and surface level that is.

you are ignoring what i said completely my dude

i made a post. explaining why you had scum motivation to start picking fights with people right after bell said you were in your scum meta for collaborating inoffensively. you ignored all of that and focused in on one minor point about you having bad takes. you are now making it out like that is my entire case about you because YOU drew it out into an argument about it. i assumed the reason you asked, if you were town, was bc you were interested in sorting me and making sure i had genuine reasons to disagree with your thoughts, but you've made it very clear that was not the case, it was just making me do busy work and then using it to deflect

the 90% that you're quoting was not about the post where i listed out your bad takes. like, that should be extremely obvious if you even glanced at the context. that was about the post where i voted you

like this is ridiculous i feel like you're just intentionally having bad reading comprehension at this point bc you find it funny or something and you know you can out-argue me since im weak and don't push for things very hard

[fireisredsir]

ok moving on

read luke's val case and it's... not super convincing to me. he does tend to focus very strongly in one area as both alignments (also side note but this guy like always rolls maf based on past games lol, at least there's a lot to look at). i think he's also generally p logic-based and wouldn't really want to make as bad of a point as he did about kovu if he didn't genuinely believe it was true

maybe thats terrible reasoning, idk, not saying he's town but more that i don't think the things he's done are super AI for him to me. idk. not feeling very strongly either way here and ok to see where the wagon goes

[fireisredsir]

Lol what? Since when are you weak and don't push things? You have helped run me up multiple times in games before. People like you more than me typically because you effort more than I do. This is detached from reality, and I'm not sure why you're acting like a victim when you're the one making weak ass arguments against me and I'm just pointing out why I think your whole approach is flawed. I don't even think you're scum here, so it's not like I'm arguing for your head.

idk i just felt the ben shapiro approach coming back and it feels exhausting to try to even make a point against you when i know you're just gonna argue about some inane thing that wasn't even related. ive also maybe lost confidence lately bc my reads have been wrong a lot idk

[fireisredsir]

i made a post. explaining why you had scum motivation to start picking fights with people right after bell said you were in your scum meta for collaborating inoffensively. you ignored all of that

Because it's insane tinfoil. What do you want me to say to it?

It's not what happened, but you can keep building fantasy land out of popsicle sticks over there. I won't stop you.

honestly this is enough! i just thought it was weird that you didn't even acknowledge it and made it out like my vote was due to other reasons

[fireisredsir]

If he's "logic-based", what do you make of 541, which shows his logic to be faulty in multiple regards?

i mean that was kinda my point. he's logic-based as both alignments in the sense that he thinks that he is being rational and logical but isn't necessarily correct all of the time. id have to read past games more thoroughly than i have time for rn to see if he is more often logically faulty as maf than as town, but that wasn't really the impression i got from a brief skim

[fireisredsir]

r.e. Val I'm unsure if he's scum just based off of having played with him as it previously, I feel like he cast a wide net and was like, all over the place covering every base with what he said where here he feels narrowed down. It's limiting and isolating how he's playing, idk.

this is interesting bc i didn't read like super thoroughly but it wasn't really the impression i got. do you remember if you've played with him as scum or town or both?

[fireisredsir]

I still think we should probably kill Sircakez or R&R.

ok let's do it

VOTE: SirCakez

[fireisredsir]

oh yeah, another thing that made me wanna yeet baltar into the fucking sun.

since when do you take notes in a game that is 300 posts long.

i was mostly nullish on datisi but tbh this kinda feels like a scumtisi post

not bc of the notes pt thing just cause of vibes

i think val actually makes a good point on page 21.

also i dont like how bandwagony sircakez is.. and without even fully reading! he said he was skimming.
hmm

this post also sketched me out a little bit

Their reads have subtlety and uncertainty that she lacked when we were scum together in KTANE.

Ok, I skimmed her ISO in that game and I agree that it is extremely one dimensional (and different from tako's early posts). Maybe I'm tunneling, so I'll unvote for now.
Do you think it's possible being on an alt could account for the difference in tone?
UNVOTE:

this is still scum btw and i would go back here if cakez wagon doesn't go anywhere

~

val and gammas longer posts kinda bored me tbh but i think that vp's response to val in 620 is Good, Actually. prob best vp post so far

RR's thoughts are... fine. doesn't really have a lot to take away from it, actually, a decent amount feels like talking just to talk which is weird for a post that should be giving thoughts

think that pressuring the low activity slots is good in general

[fireisredsir]

what do you disagree with?
I haven't been in this game at all because it literally started the day I left for vacation

from 197:
- i thought mueh's vote on takotsubo was good, so i wasn't really a fan of the questioning there
- strong disagree with your liking of lavar's post, and especially with the characterization of it as "organic", since i felt it was p stilted and unnatural sounding.
- kovu's readlist... eh, i can understand how someone might have that reaction, so not a strong disagree even tho i don't think it feels forced
- liking 94. i did not really like the vibes from luke in that post, the content was fine and i actually agreed with most of the things he said though, so i think its reasonable to like it fypov. something about the way he approached it though just pinged me a little, but looking back now i don't feel that as strongly

but still, uh, almost everything in the post, like i said. the biggest thing was the lavar post though

look how bad this readslist is
"maybe town but not sure"
"not sure if they do this as scum"
"don't know what to make o it"
"hard to tell what Baltar is doing"
"vaguely town and hard to know for sure"

these reads are trash. literally completely made up.

what makes you think that bell's d1 reads having words like "maybe" and "not sure" makes him more likely to be scum? like yeah you can call it "bad" but that sounds pretty zero level to me, and i don't really buy that your confidence here is legit

[fireisredsir]

i generally agree with mueh's points about RR especially with regards to 622, i think that post was relatively low-content for being a thought-sharing catchup post. i don't especially want to vote there but i think its p reasonable that she would.

[fireisredsir]

Cakez's posts don't look horrible. Where's the counterwagon to him?

the counter wagon appears to be val, or maybe mueh. i would prefer lavar to both of those, personally

[fireisredsir]

I mean he says "even accounting for holiday weekend" about me and cakez but cake is churning out a ton of content

not sure what you mean by mentioning cakez here. do you think cakez is town? or that vp is pushing you instead of cakez bc you weren't here to churn out content yet?

[fireisredsir]

did u miss that whole ass discussion me and luke had about my voting tendencies

who do you scumread besides datisi?

[fireisredsir]

dueling lavar/marci wagons again let's goo!!!

VOTE: marci

idk if lavar is even a wagon anymore but they should be too

[fireisredsir]

actually speaking of that

vp come here

tell me about what dueling wagons you think we should have

and why you're not pushing for them to exist

[fireisredsir]

idk if I've played with you before but this is kinda my thing. I do not post with a specific goal in mind, I give my honest thoughts even if they're not conclusive or particularly productive. Once again I must underscore that I am happy to look into any particular questions people want me to check out, I think this is helpful for both parties, but it's way too rarely done in my mind.

ok, fair enough. i see you haven't really given any thoughts on lavar, can you take a look there and let me know what you think of them so far?

[fireisredsir]

i have just remembered that mala is in this game. which is not a great sign. i think, knowing who she is now, this response to the votes on her is also a very bad look:

Well these votes on me are a little odd, but ok.

she was playing in a bit of a different style due to the alt, i think, but it is still a lot closer to how she tends to respond to votes on her when she's scum than how she responds when she's town

[fireisredsir]

Not particularly. I have, in fact, acted this way as either alignment. Obv, you haven't played enough with me to realize this. I feel like I'm pretty transparent with my reads so far.

ngl i didn't really understand the votes on me so I was hoping my comment owuld make people elaborate

i haven't played with you enough to know, you're right, but i have meta read you somewhat extensively so i feel reasonably confident in making that statement

what about posting "the votes on me are a little odd, but ok" made you think that it would mane people elaborate on them? find it kinda hard to believe that was actually your goal. that does not prompt a response

do you have any actual thoughts on the game?

[fireisredsir]

I feel like I'm pretty transparent with my reads so far.

i don't really think this is true at all. you townread bell and mentioned it a few times, soft townread marci and mentioned it a few times, townread kovu and mentioned it a few times, and townread luke and mentioned it a few times. those are the only reads i can find. i can't find any mention of a scumread besides your rvs vote on datisi, which you removed. repeating the same townreads (all of them, in fact) several times also kinda makes it look like you're expressing more opinions than you actually are

takotsubo syndrome – ok this one is funny, I initially Town leaned Tako, like “oh, game has a really slow pace, but tako still made an entrance!! That’s good!!” but then that was it, and they jumped on the datisi votes with just “did you roll scum again” like, that’s it? What specific posts made you feel that way? If you wanted the RVS votes to be taken seriously, why not make up a reason at the very least?? So cause of that you lost your town lean - null

For me my vote was more of a reaction test on Datisi. Which obviously has a chance to be skewed, but I'm ok with it for what it produced.

In other news I really like 81. So currently I have a soft townread on that slot as well.

takosubo's entrance (10) felt off to me, especially coming from an alt that from what I can tell has never played with Bell before. Like a level of familiarity with bell to know that he normally is pretty easy to read, but a strange way to approach him if you are familiar. I don't know that it is more likely to come from scum, but it did catch my attention.

I am an alt account. I have also played a bunch of games with the better half of this player list. Bell is probably one of the easiest players to read for me so my post was really in jest in regards to an RVS vote.

On a side note: 94 has also given me a soft townread on that slot.

also knowing who you are now and looking back on this... already didn't like it, but i think its super sus now. you did this same kind of thing as scum in spring fling where you pocketed andante there (viewtopic.php?p=13334438#p13334438). just the taking two posts here that express some suspicion of you and saying that you like the posts and townread the people making them... its ew

[fireisredsir]

Let's be real, I'm cautious of playing tonight. I have a wake for one of my old partners today & his funeral on Thursday. So I'm really not really digging reading anything atm, but once my mind is off that I'll definitely put some serious effort into this game.

sorry to hear that, no real rush on responding but i have concerns and would like to hear who you think is scum once you have a chance

[fireisredsir]

why?

[fireisredsir]

why?

I really did not like the way that her scum read on datisi played out, but her reaction to being under pressure/suspicion feels distinctly like town marci imo

hmm. i kinda felt that earlier (like around her response to you 106, and 213 specifically felt like how she posted in newbie 2090), but haven't liked her more recent posting much at all

i haven't played with her before (besides when she was gragas, which i only recently realized while looking at her past games), so maybe you have a better handle on her meta, idk. can you point out specific things that stood out to you that made you think that?

[fireisredsir]

@LLD, i think ISOing marci and giving a quick take on that would be most useful as i think she's the leading wagon rn

[fireisredsir]

I don't scumread her for that stuff (the things you mentioned in 784). I noticed that some of her recent posts have been shading Datisi and VPB who have been scumreading her. I'm also a little confused why she scumreads you in 708. Feels a bit random ... in the scummy way.

what about shading datisi and vp makes you think she is more likely to be scum? and what makes you say that the luke read feels random? what's your read on luke?

[fireisredsir]

oh HECK yeah let's go

VOTE: Lavar

[fireisredsir]

Having seen luke temper and then reverse it leads me to believe the case there was initially deliberately exaggerated and oversold, and in truth is probably +town for luke as well as marci.

luke, would you say it's accurate that the original case was exaggerated and oversold?

[fireisredsir]

Lavar feels like a scum driven counter wagon y'all I have seen no signs this dude is scum

who exactly are the scum that are driving it?

[fireisredsir]

i have concerns still but i don't think they're really worth worrying about rn

[fireisredsir]

btw im not worried that im gonna hit postcap anymore so i have something really important i need to tell you all

i looked up city of selah earlier to see if it was a real place

turns out it exists, in the US in washington state

and what are they known for?

theyre known as the apple juice capitol of the WORLD

so i think there's going to be a twist in the story here where it isn't actually about cars it's going to be about apple juice somehow

maybe as an organic alternative fuel? haven't worked that out yet. still figuring out the details. but i think its important

thank you for coming to my ted talk

[fireisredsir]

ok, i can explain then:

1) your early posting felt really stiff and unnatural. this is more of a gut thing, sure, but i read posts like 91, 229, 232 and it feels like they don't really have any meat to them. i can't feel any town thought process behind your words, it just feels like you're trying to avoid stepping on any toes and making as low impact as you can

2) the way you interact with people. you're generally extremely accommodating to whoever you talk to. this has scum motivation bc it makes people less likely to want to scumread you. its not inherently scummy, but it is when it doesn't actually make town sense for you to do that there. one example is around post 290 and the following few posts with much. you had mueh as a top scumread before this, but once she started talking to you, you kinda started buddying her. it was a super weird interaction and i originally thought it could be s/s but i think it could just be t/s. this isn't the only instance of this, i think you also have done it with others, but it's the most significant for me

3) related to the above, i think you've gone out of your way to avoid interacting with people probably bc you know that you come off as awkward. you've ignored questions and haven't really engaged at all with the suspicions on you, and it seems like you're just hoping that they'll go away or people will get distracted by something else if you don't acknowledge them

4) your votes on val and marci feel opportunistic and are supported by p weak reasoning. it doesn't feel like you have any genuine scumreads and are happy to just go with the flow for the most part

[fireisredsir]

this also kinda reminds me of large normal 238 d2 where it felt like for most of the day things were sort of stagnant, nothing getting pushed super hard, and it seemed like scum was probably happy with the game state (which it turned out they were, main wagons were town).

and then there was galron, who was kinda lurking it out and going with the flow and a lot of people had him in their scumreads but nobody was really pushing him. and so we flashwagoned him near the end of day, and it prob would have gone through but then tragically yeet had a false inno on him and saved him. but he was scum and if the wagon had gone through we probably would have won that game

like obviously this isn't a reason to vote lavar here on its own but it's something that i was reminded of. the gamestate vibes feel kinda similar. it doesn't really apply if marci is scum but eh im less confident on that now

[fireisredsir]

it is most of the same people who were on it before so it kinda makes sense that we would consolidate again, what's interesting is what new people decided to join and why they didn't want to before

[fireisredsir]

I did not join before, because I thought (and still think) that Val is scummier.

what do you think of val's vote?

[fireisredsir]

This is a game I am in.

Oh yeah I would for sure wagon this too

VOTE: LLD

Aye

Or this I didn't really have a read on Enchant but it's pretty crappy that this was the only thing he had to offer recently

why are those wagons better than the current ones we have? enchant is like a coinflip at this point and gives us no associative info so idk how you think that would be more pro-town than making people take a stance on marci vs lavar

[fireisredsir]

It's not too late for wagons to move around but if we do end up with two dueling wagons at the end of the day, and one flips town, it's probably a good idea to aim invictus shots at the other one, if there is no better target.

i kinda like this concept

[fireisredsir]

i think the fact that lavar posted all confused about how fast the wagon was, complained about how nobody was explaining things, and then when i explained my reasoning they just disappeared is... not great! especially when part of my reasoning was that they were avoiding engaging with people's suspicions of them and would instead just lie low and hope it went away on its own

[fireisredsir]

luke, what's your opinion on val's vote on lavar? 803

[fireisredsir]

Don't have Big Thoughts.

My Big thought on the matter is that what answer could fire have been expecting?

I could have written exactly the same post as 857 as to my motivations for joining the lava wagon, substituting Datisi for own name, and I don't think I hid those motivation when voting.

I see fireisredsir opining that it was 'interesting' to look at those who joined the wagon but hadn't voted there before, then Lukewarm makes a post saying 'I still think Val is scummy', and fire immediately asks what Luke thinks of my vote, and repeats the question when he doesn't answer straight away.

I was wondering if fire was trying to lay the ground for Luke to say "yeah, that vote was scummy" and try and swing the wagon my way. I'm not sure there is evidence to conclude that was the motivation at the moment, but I do think the fact Luke answered another way is suggestive they aren't partnered.

my question had more to do with sorting luke than it did you. i mostly wanted to get him on record with an opinion about it for future reference, im not sure if i have much of an opinion about the answer he gave at this time but i think it could become relevant depending on who flips what in the future

ive been saying since like post 200 that i want dueling lavar/marci wagons and we finally got them so idk why you think i would want to swing towards a wagon on you

i don't particularly like luke's case on you either

[fireisredsir]

also how convenient it is!! he hasnt asked me for my opinions on anyone certain... which he could always do if he was ACTUALLY TRYING TO SOLVE ME

what does this mean? who are these people who are "certain" that you would expect him to ask you about?

[fireisredsir]

Like the only reason I could get for people voting him is that his posting is a little stilted and that his self-admitted tinfoil of Datisi & Marci being scum together is bad.

did you read my 844? like you can disagree with it if you want but i feel like you're kinda underselling the reasons here

[fireisredsir]

I don't particularly try to engage people who scumread me as either alignment either unless they're specifically asking me something - ignoring questions I will give to you as yes it's generally scummy, I just don't remember when/where Lavar did that off the top of my head. I'll look back for it in a min though

the most significant one for me was 788 they never responded to. and that question was fairly significant for me bc i felt like their reasons for their vote were made up to justify it and i wanted to see if they had some level of internal consistency or town thought process to their reads

i don't really agree with your characterization of the mueh interaction but ig if you don't see anything weird about it then i can't really do much about that. disregarding the joking aspect entirely though, they still came away with a townread on mueh after previously having them as a top scumread, and the reasoning for that was never really developed. do you not find that odd?

[fireisredsir]

I unvoted you mostly because I thought takotsubo needed to be voted. But yeah. I did look at your posts and they seem good. The part about you voting for takotsubo contributing to my unvote of you was mostly a joke lol.

@gamma its mostly this for me. the "i did look at your posts and they seem good" just... doesn't really feel like a believable town progression on someone who was only 50ish posts ago one of their top 2 scumreads? like there's no thought process here, it only even is mentioned bc meuh prompts it and basically provides the answer, and there's not much further evaluation in the future either, but later in 496 theyre back to "i could see meuh as scum" with no progression supporting that

pedit: i see you found the same thing lol, thats my point

[fireisredsir]

maybe you could argue that them saying "i did look at your posts and they seem good" isn't them coming away with a townread, idk. i think at the very least it's being much more accommodating than i would expect town to be to one of their top scumreads

[fireisredsir]

I may end up deferring to Mena's read here, but in the meantime... how many times have you played with town!Cakez? I think "confidence way too high to believe is natural" describes his towngame quite well.

i haven't played with him but i read a bit of his games

scum, FFXIV: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=87655&user_select%5B%5D=26092
town, pokemon theme: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=87795&user_select%5B%5D=26092

looking at his d1 isos, i think there's def an overconfidence in both, but to me it feels closer to his scumgame actually

[fireisredsir]

I may end up deferring to Mena's read here, but in the meantime... how many times have you played with town!Cakez? I think "confidence way too high to believe is natural" describes his towngame quite well.

i haven't played with him but i read a bit of his games

scum, FFXIV: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=87655&user_select%5B%5D=26092
town, pokemon theme: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=87795&user_select%5B%5D=26092

looking at his d1 isos, i think there's def an overconfidence in both, but to me it feels closer to his scumgame actually

I just read through start of his iso from both of those games, and through this one. And I frankly did not see anything that really stood out as "present in 1 but not in the other."

Can you tell me what makes you feel like it was more similar to the scum game listed or different then the town game listed?

first, obvious disclaimer that this is a 1 game sample size and i don't really think anyone should be basing a meta read off it, and i mostly was looking to see if RR's meta read of him being very confident as town was something exclusive to his towngame

but since you asked

i think its a little harder to explain than just being about confidence, so i wasn't really able to summarize it quickly. it's more a level of proactiveness that informs his confidence. in the town game, posts like this: viewtopic.php?p=13040866#p13040866. he's making an effort to make new reads, his reads are evolving due to new information, and he's taking a more active approach to the game. when he's confident, it's because he developed a read that he cares about and wants to see that through

in the scum game... tbh, looking again now, i don't find the difference to be as noticeable as i thought it was at first, but i do feel like he's more focused on responses, more forceful without the weight of a developed read to support that force, and generally i don't see as much development of his reads over time. it feels more like he finds a slot that he decides to find scummy or towny and then will call posts from that slot scummy or towny rather than having the posts themselves inform the read

the thing is that i would find that behavior scummy even if there wasn't meta involved at all, cause it's just... closer to how people tend to play scum in general. it just also happens to be something i found to be more noticeable in his scumgames

[fireisredsir]

Like the only reason I could get for people voting him is that his posting is a little stilted and that his self-admitted tinfoil of Datisi & Marci being scum together is bad. Like he knows nobody's going to agree with it, that's why he said it's tinfoil, and I still think his early posts were good with him flatly saying what he thinks but being open to looking at other things/potentially being wrong about early reads.

Exactly
There's not really anything I can point to for Lavar scum but many things I can for other people scum

a relevant example from this game is right here

when gamma made the quoted post, i thought it was kinda scummy at first bc i felt like he was minimizing and dismissing the case on lavar, as if he had already come to a conclusion on it and wasn't looking at the evidence presented. so i talked to gamma about it, and he was willing to listen, read the case i had, disagreed with parts of it and agreed with parts of it, and it looked at least like he had at least some progression in his read over the course of the conversation

cakez, in contrast, comes in and quotes the original post and says exactly. it's still not true, but hey, maybe he'll read the conversation i had with gamma and that will have some impact on his read. since if he's in the same place that gamma was at the time of that quote, i would expect him to also have some sort of development when he realizes that the original statement of there being no reasons for the lavar wagon was untrue

but he didn't, at all. he just kept moving forward with the townread that he had already decided on and only commented on new information that would support that read, ignoring information that wouldn't

[fireisredsir]

did you think the reasons weren't good? or do you still think that there aren't any reasons at all?

[fireisredsir]

Sure. But I’m going to avoid the power struggle here and just say I’d prefer lavar to Dwlee. Because I trust the people who are voting lavar more than I trust the people voting Dwlee.

idk who exactly this is referring to but im kinda starting to feel doubts about lavar tbh

i vibed a bit with gamma saying he liked dwlee's post 2 and 3 bc i agree, i townread those at the time. but i don't really agree with the unwillingness to vote, bc i don't think dwlee has been towny at all since then

[fireisredsir]

Their posts have declined in quality over time. I think Dwlee would be more apologetic as scum wrt activity and reading others based off of it. I'll keep my vote on Datisi for now.

what do you expect a vote on datisi to accomplish?

[fireisredsir]

I am upset with how day one has gone.
Oh well. Watch scum flip day one proving me an idiot.

what would your ideal day 1 have looked like? what about this one didn't live up to your hopes and dreams?

[fireisredsir]

very clearly using bad logic wHy ArE yOu UsInG tHe NoTeS pT bAltEr?!?!?

Agree with this

To play devil's advocate, I do think that a town Datisi would be on the look our for an awkward mention of keeping notes on a game from Baltar, because he previously did a meta check on the fact whether Baltar comments on keeping note as scum.

Tanner=Datisi

Spoiler:

mmm, vp, you mentioned notes? what kinda notes are you keeping?

do you make notes in a similar fashion when you're scum?

because it's like, (1) i remember you once mentioning how you were taking notes when catching up in jungle oligarchy and (2) some details like that are something that almost never occurs to me to fake as scum so i'm like if *that* is a galaxy brain pocket then bruh

Tanner frantically ctrl+fing my scum games rn for the word "notes" to pull out an aha for some shit I don't remember saying because he is too afraid to power hammer imaginality.

first of all, fuck you, i wasn't ctrl+f'ing "note" in your scumgames from last year

second of all what in the everloving fuck is this:
viewtopic.php?p=11943578#p11943578
viewtopic.php?p=11956698#p11956698
viewtopic.php?p=11956705#p11956705
viewtopic.php?p=11956721#p11956721

like, the amount of "MY NOTES" is actually agh

though to be fair, it looks fairly more natural in jungle oligarchy where he was like "in my notes i have it that datisi's slot is totally scum" (it was not btw) and this game it looks more like "did i mention i have notes so very townie only townies have notes right?"

Just thinking on this, I actually think that this is actually kinda +town for Datisi. It is in line with something that I think that a town datisi would think about, but does not look like how scum!datisi would try to capitalize on it since he did not really try to push him for it, or bring up the meta that he had on the topic himself.

i mean he's also done it as scum too (this whole datisi vs vp notes thing is, like, an ongoing trend: viewtopic.php?p=13281139#p13281139) so i think it's more of a thing that datisi will think about rather than a thing that town datisi will think about

i didn't really love the way he brought it up here fwiw

[fireisredsir]

I'd prefer for Lavar to just vote Dwlee and go "this is better than me getting limmed" than keeping the door open but not committing to it. The way they chose to.

Maybe playstyle is a part of it... but it seems like an attempt to make a later vote on Dwlee look "read motivated" more than "not getting killed" motivated.
That doesn't seem like something a townie getting wagoned would be worried about?

Like if Lavar is town here, why wouldn't they be like "hey, I'm a town member, I'll take this chance to stop my death from happening" instead of what looks like a weird "smoother" transition to a Dwlee vote.

this is pretty much exactly how i felt about it

[fireisredsir]

mmmm

not really sure what the point of this whole line of thinking is tbh. i believe datisi uses notes pts as both alignments at times, but not always, which i think is what you've gathered now

what does all of this have to do with datisi's alignment in this game?

[fireisredsir]

VOTE: Fey

Why?

I think scum was on the Dwlee wagon

why? not sure what about that wagon would be suspicious

i mean it could have been if lavar was scum but they weren't

[fireisredsir]

VOTE: Fey

Why?

I think scum was on the Dwlee wagon

why? not sure what about that wagon would be suspicious

i mean it could have been if lavar was scum but they weren't

If Dwlee is town, which is the impression I’m getting; why would scum not jump on a last second wagon to get some juicy juicy towncred after Lavar flips?

ok even ignoring that you're preflipping dwlee here i still don't really think the point is very good

if dwlee and lavar were both town, why would scum feel any need to take action to influence the gamestate? they would be happy with it being as is and let people wagon whoever they want

i don't see why they would expect to get much towncred for pushing dwlee there

[fireisredsir]

R&R is the one who never voted besides me, however, they are town.
Kovu is town imo.
I’m ok with a Luke & Marci town.

I really do need to reevaluate though and do a good reread, but that will be tomorrow most likely.

fun fact, still 0 scumreads or scumleans or any suspicions mentioned at all. there was an rvs datisi vote but that went away very quickly

guess what happened in ktane (scum)?

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=89120&user_select%5B%5D=19101

0 scumreads or scumleans or suspicions mentioned until post 2992. mostly focused on just calling people town with no reasons given

same as here

compare that to control (town):
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=88500&user_select%5B%5D=19101

when she isn't around as town, she doesn't really feel the need to fake content by making unjustified reads. and when she does show up, she is much quicker to find scumreads and actually hunt scum rather than just calling people town

VOTE: Malakittens

[fireisredsir]

Nah, it depends on how I feel and how big the game. If you remember I was trying to townblock on the micro game rather than scum read and it actually was correct sooo

that was a coalition game, literally the goal is to townblock d1, not hunt scum, that's not a valid comparison

and even then you ended up with scumreads sooner

my point with choosing 2 large themes was that they are the same size game as this so they were valid comparisons, so idk why the largeness of the game is a factor here

[fireisredsir]

Luke is obv town.

what makes luke obvtown? have you played with him as scum/read any of his scum games?

[fireisredsir]

He was scum in Prism's Guardians game, right? His play here seems much more proactive and looking for scum. I found myself agreeing with him fairly often yesterday, so there could be some bias at play, but I feel pretty good about Luke, Bell, you and a few others as town. Probably not ready to form a full on bloc yet, but I think a decent PoE could form today.

ive only read pieces of that one, but yea he was. i was just following along with a newbie that recently finished where he was scum, and i thought he played p well and was proactive, making big cases, etc. certain things from here have been pinging me so im a little worried about townreading him personally

is the bell thing just bc he said he had a confirmable PR or do you townread him on play?

[fireisredsir]

luke keeps posting things that i agree with and it makes me think he's town but then i just have a lingering feeling that he's posting them exactly because i agree with them

i don't mean to be self-centered but its happened like a lot

i also don't really think this is a super rational feeling but it has me concerned

[fireisredsir]

what are your thoughts on mala?

[fireisredsir]

Cool. So now that we've established that VP Balter is wrong and bad, let's focus on the current game.

LOL

dying

my first reaction to this post was "well, dunn is town" but tbh showing up only after people start pushing on him means i proooobably shouldn't let him off that easy, even though i want to. idk

[fireisredsir]

1179 is that usually a bad sign for mala..? i remember last time ive played with her she was so afk she barely gave reads at all, i think she was town there..?

i mean in the post i was comparing a scum game to a town game, so see for yourself

[fireisredsir]

VOTE: FireIsRed

yeah so fire is maf, maf that as I said before was
1) way too interested in pointing out "people wasting posts"
wanna know what happened here? I'm in a hood with Fire, I said "maf is probably gonna be wasting posts early cause post cap is pretty easy to hit, so just keep an eye on it" then fire spent like 10 posts just "YOU'RE WASTING POSTS" like... that's not "keeping an eye on it"

I have about 50 million other reasons too cause that hood is like textbook scum!fire... basically was just there, I talk a LOT, fire would answer me, but never took a whole lot of initiative to ask me stuff, I'd be asking a lot, that whole lava thing? he was basically like "I'm never voting outside no matter what", I could see lava flipping town and scum, I believe I said why I thought lava could be town, fire didn't care, ummm even after lava flipped VT fire never adressed anything really, just yeah.. I talked to him a LOT about RR, who I still SR btw, I think fire and RR are partners. but I asked fire to give me every reason in the books for why RR was town, whether he believed it or not. He made a "case" and it was genuinely terrible, and basically ended with "I genuinely believe RR could be town" fire used different words, but that was the gist of that, and from that moment, I was like, hold on... and I invictus shot fire last night cause I was like, there is NO WAY he claims this hood if I die, and like, his reads are polar opposite to mine, like he just flipped lava town, you would THINK he'd go "hold on I might be wrong" I honestly don't think once that he genuinely questioned if I was maf, and right now he got very hostile it felt when I was like "yeah I tr them" idk this hood. I can't anymore. I'm VERY certain fire flips red

this is... not really accurate at all lol but ok

1) almost all of my posts about postcap were about vp, it was the same point, it just took a few posts to explain it. idk why thats a scum thing to do anyway

2) we've been asking each other questions p equally, examining each other's reads, stuff like that. like this is just not really an accurate assessment

3) i never said that i wouldn't vote outside lava ??? none of what you said about that is true. we had a long discussion overnight reassessing things postflip

4) you asked me to make a towncase for RR even though I didn't townread them and i did and said myself that it wasn't very good and that i wasnt at all convinced by it... like idk what you expected??? never said that i genuinely thought they were town, i told you the case wasn't good

5) i think the level to which you were excited to solve the game early on is very town-indicative for you. there's been times where I've questioned it even if i haven't always said that directly to you (bc whats the point in doing that? I'd rather you think you have me pocketed if you're maf) but yea for the most part I've townread you

6) you're literally just mad that i disagree with some of your reads/said i didn't understand your thought process which is incredibly predictable and so if i was maf i would just... not do that

[fireisredsir]

im kinda sad ngl i thought we were having a good time in there but ig not

i said that i wanted to channel ginngie energy from spring fling but turns out she had issues with ginngie lmao, even though she solved the game

[fireisredsir]

is fireisredsir historically bad with keeping up with hoods as scum?

i historically haven't played in a hood as scum

my one scumgame here was as amumu lol

[fireisredsir]

ah this is about the enchant read

well yes i do think that was dumb tbh, to say you were convinced enchant was town

i don't think anyone should be convinced enchant is town atm

and we have asked each other about our reads all the time and ive asked you lots of questions, no idea what you mean by that

[fireisredsir]

why did you do a towncase on someone you don't town read?

she proposed it as like an exercise to see if she was tunneled, and if i could find reasons they could be town, so she could see if they were convincing or not

seemed like not a bad idea to me

[fireisredsir]

and fire wanted to call RR town, like I asked for a towncase wheter he believed it or not, it was WEAK... and he ended on RR town... THERE IS NO FREAKING WAY RR AN BE TOWN.. so yeah big surprise I want fire dead now...I'm pretty certain it's fire + RR

i ended on not being convinced by my own towncase, and that i had them mostly null but maaaybe nulltown. i then acknowledged that most of the reason i personally found them town was cause i liked their read on cakez who at the time i thought was likely scum, and said that if I was wrong on cakez then RR would be less towny

nowhere did i say that i ended on them being town. i had them null before so literally the only thing in the towncase that moved the needle for me was the thing about cakez. this is all there in the hood you can feel free to reread it

[fireisredsir]

nulltown is slightly on the town side of null and i was clearly not very convinced by that either

[fireisredsir]

NOOO WAIT U WERE AMUMUMUMU??? WHY DID IT GET ERASED FROM MY MEMORY.... I REMEMBER I WAS VIBING WITH AMUMUMUMU BUT I DIDNT REMEMBER WHO IT WAS....

yupp i didn't realize you were gragas until this game actually

i kinda ignored that thread after i died cause i was embarrassed by how bad i played lol, so i didn't pay much attention to the reveals of who was who

[fireisredsir]

Since when am I sheeping? I already said Enchant's vote prompted me to reevaluate you, and I drew my own conclusions from there. For you to be this dismissive of it all is odd.

this quote kinda sounds like sheeping, no?

The reasoning for marci being scum seems rather tenuous to me. Of course maybe I'm just too dumb to understand it. That happens a lot.

Gorilla/Marci S/S?

VOTE: Gorilla
I'm willing to try this out Enchant, don't let me down

like yea you went and found your own reasons but i think it's weird not to acknowledge that you were def following enchant on this. the "don't let me down" specifically, like yea it could be joking, but it still is jokingly or not clearly putting some level of responsibility for your own vote onto enchant

for the record i don't really find that suspicious on its own (although i do think gorilla is right that it looks like you just went and found reasons to suspect rather than actually having a suspicion form naturally), but i do think your response to being accused of sheeping feels slightly off given the original context

[fireisredsir]

Who here is familiar with lld? Because given how little she'd done so far, I think that kill is much more likely to come from someone who knows her reputation. Here, the main names that occur to me are gorilla/dunn/Bell/Baltar/Cakez. Bell is clear, seemingly, so that leaves me with a likely scum in (gorilla/dunn/Cakez).

this seems extremely narrow to me in an odd way. LLD is a fairly known player on site, ive never played with her and yet i know her reputation. i would be surprised if other people in this game who have been around longer than i have don't have that same experience. why not Fey, dwlee, even luke, or VP/gamma (i remember VP and gamma talking to LLD in the signup thread in a familiar way)? and at that point you're at 9 names and saying that there is most likely to be 1 scum in 9 people is... not super useful. of course it's actually 10, but it makes sense that you would exclude yourself

the main point though is how you managed to narrow that list down to those 3 or 4. given no further explanation as to why certain names were excluded, it seems intentional

[fireisredsir]

VOTE: Meuh

[fireisredsir]

Current read on Cakez?

i was kinda starting to think i was overreacting to what i thought was very scummy d1 play, buuut then now i think i may have been viewing the game somewhat wrong overall and am re-evaluating. so... im not sure, i guess. there's a reason why im hesitant on him and its probably dumb, purely off his own play i scumread him

[fireisredsir]

(and my Lavar vote was both after the hammer and only to make sure an actual elim happened that day)

why DID you vote after the hammer?

[fireisredsir]

- R&R, (rhyme specifically, I guess), i was hoping for some sort of response to 1338. can you talk about why you chose those names in particular, and do you still stand by the original point?

- i like 1383 a lot. willing to disregard prior thoughts of scum vp for now. i agree with most of the points in the post which is cool. also the thing with the dumb threat to meuh is exactly the kind of silly blustery stuff i expect to see from town vp, and it's actually also kinda town of him to think that he is obvtown for doing it in 1416. idk if he's self-aware enough as scum to know that he should portray himself as that un-self-aware. this is, i think, logically one of the worst reasons ive ever had to townread someone and yet somehow im kinda feelin confident in it rn

- really really don't like 1414 from luke. i think luke has been mostly saying reasonable things so ive been trying to ignore the bad vibes ive been getting (generally feels somewhat manipulative in the way he's approaching the game rather than coming from a town mindset) but i think this post is just bad. it seems intentionally very uncharitable, like, saying that marci has "pure confidence in meuh being town"??? the post he's referencing doesn't even read to me like a strong townread. scum can tunnel too and tunneling does not imply town, and luke absolutely should know this, so i find it very weird that he is twisting that. he also takes 264 as evidence for marci scumreading meuh early and seeing "no signs of that changing" despite... her never mentioning a suspicion. and in 708, where she lists her suspicions, meuh isn't mentioned. like that is 100% just luke setting a narrative that isn't there.

- then again marci's response to luke 1418 is kinda bad, so idk. but then eventually her explanation in 1435 fits exactly the progression i see in her iso. it's kind of strange to me that she doesn't question luke on his interpretation of her progression, which in a way kind of feels like it could be scum accepting that he found a correct suspicion without really diving in to see if it's accurate or not, but i guess it could come town not closely reading luke's post. not sure. don't love the response either way

- regarding PRs, i don't really think that anyone besides bell should be cleared atm, but i also don't really think there's much reason for the people who have softed/partial claimed to be limmed today

- not really a fan at all of how dwlee's one contribution today so far has been about what looks to me like a nothing point about something that isn't really a townslip at all. ik they said they'd be busy but im used to town dwlee having reads they care about even when they aren't posting much

- gorilla!! 1496!! thank you monke

- oh MAN and 1507 is not town. kinda think luke may have overplayed his hand here a bit

[fireisredsir]

It's a meta read. He often makes weird pushes and is overly confident in things as town.

did you read my 993 and 997? i don't remember a response to them from you, any thoughts? since you're Reason, i would expect you to know that "cakez makes weird pushes and is overly confident in things as town" is not sufficient evidence to support "cakes makes weird pushes and is overly confident -> cakez is town"

[fireisredsir]

Fire feels slightly towny, but I also am in disagreement with his crap case on me considering he finished a game with me where I was on the lower post count similar to here.

well it's a good thing that my case on you doesn't have anything to do with postcount then, and instead has to do with how you've used those posts! but i don't think you should be elimmed today so im willing to set it aside for now

[fireisredsir]

- really really don't like 1414 from luke. i think luke has been mostly saying reasonable things so ive been trying to ignore the bad vibes ive been getting (generally feels somewhat manipulative in the way he's approaching the game rather than coming from a town mindset) but i think this post is just bad. it seems intentionally very uncharitable, like, saying that marci has "pure confidence in meuh being town"???

the post he's referencing doesn't even read to me like a strong townread. scum can tunnel too and tunneling does not imply town, and luke absolutely should know this, so i find it very weird that he is twisting that

. he also takes 264 as evidence for marci scumreading meuh early and seeing "no signs of that changing" despite... her never mentioning a suspicion. and in 708, where she lists her suspicions, meuh isn't mentioned. like that is 100% just luke setting a narrative that isn't there.

I don't think that scum can be tunneled, because being tunneled means that you are reading someone so strongly that you are not seeing evidence to the contrary.

Scum can't do that. Because scum don't have reads. And, if they are ignoring evidence to the contrary, it is on purpose.

"i think ur just tunneling on me and trying to justify ur read in any way that you can." This statement inherently implies that the person is thinking of the other person as explicitly town. Which, Marci even came back and said that she was thinking of meuh as town as she typed that message.

So, it explicitly is either scum!marci forgetting that they should be suspicious of Meuh's push there, and changing to a town read because of it / or / town!marci writing it just after convincing herself that meuh is town.

I am not attempting to look at people's posts limited to the exact words used in the posts. (Like, the fact that she did not say meuh was town explicitly in that comment) But also looking at the mindset of the person when they were typing it.

And like, that was the correct reading of the subtext of that statement, and I am not sure why you would think otherwise here.

im not sure why that's the point you chose to respond to, unless you're just trying to draw me into a pedantic argument about the meaning of words instead of about alignment, but okay

1) scum can tunnel. scum cannot "be tunneled", but i think there's a key difference there. tunneling refers to the action, being tunneled refers to the mindset. the post in question used the former, you are treating it as the latter. if you want to say you disagree here, okay thats fine, it's not really the point

2) my point was about how your statements of her reads were exaggerated. you said that she had "pure confidence". even if you think that someone using the word "tunneling" implies that they are likely viewing the person as town, it isn't the kind of statement that implies a 100% confidence in someone being town. the fact that you treated it that way is what i found suspicious

3) that point was part of a larger overall trend of you misrepresenting her progression, which you chose to ignore. saying that she had pure confidence in meuh being town was an exaggeration, even if she said later that she had started to lean town at that point. you saying that she was scumreading meuh through d1 was an exaggeration (calling it an exaggeration is generous tbh, it's not really supported at all by the facts), when she seems to clearly have started to question meuh after meuh suspected her at start of d2. i found you drawing this out, exaggerating the highs of the read, the lows of the read, and the time period over which it played out, to be suspicious, because you were constructing a narrative that isn't there

[fireisredsir]

2) I use strong language.

3) I read 1240, and made a mental note that Marci was shading Meuh. I then read her comment about tunneling in 1375, and it did not line up with that, and it looked like a perspective slip. I opened her iso, and hit control+f and searched for "Meuh" to see if there was anything that happened between 1240 and 1375. There wasnt. I then went up her iso to see the last substantive comment Marci made about Meuh prior to 1240 to see if I was wrong to read shade into 1240. The last one that I saw that felt substantive was super early, and it was a scum read.

My main focus was the 1240->1375, and looking at day 1 was an after thought. Sorry if that methodology does not stand up to your standards friend.

i don't really understand the combo of walking back your original point and essentially acknowledging that it was exaggerated while also being passive aggressive about me calling you out for it being a false narrative

does that come from town?

and by the way, 264 is still in no world a scumread

[fireisredsir]

ok on a slightly different topic

i intentionally didn't give reasoning for my meuh vote because i wanted to see how she would respond to it

she didn't, which i think is kind of not a good look at all

she's been townreading me all game. i townread her for p much all of d1. seeing the lavar flip made me rethink things a bit, and after some of her posting early d2 and after rereading d1, i ended up with a scumread on meuh. i did post 1333, but that wasn't the extent of my reasoning and she never acknowledged that post either anyway

and idk, when someone that im townreading, that has previously been townreading me, that i have felt kinda mind-meldy on, when that person then votes me without giving much reason, i would probably want to question that or at least talk to them and try to work out what's going on. i like to talk to my townreads and from my reading of meuh it seems like she generally is that type of player as well. so i would expect her to have a similar mindset if she was town. but scum could be more likely to worry that the person has good reasoning and be hesitant to engage, or may not want to draw attention, or any number of reasons

this isn't like a huge point for me bc different people could respond differently etc etc but it definitely doesn't make me feel any better about meuh

[fireisredsir]

what I will drop in to say is that Meuh is my top townread if we're basing it purely off play, and if anyone tries to wagon her I will be an avenging fire from the heavens that comes forth to crisp their ashes and to brush them from the Land

I think she's had by far the clearest actual thought processes/development in response to what's happening in the game so far

well, you're currently voting my top townread, so we can't all get what we want

meuh is already a wagon, so multiple people disagree with you. the fact that you don't seem to know this makes it hard for me to believe that you're reading the thread closely enough to come to a decision on her alignment that is worth listening to

i am not very convinced by your reasoning, and don't see the clear thought process that you see, and in fact strictly disagree with that point, so you'll have to do more than that

[fireisredsir]

And gotta say, doubly frustrated at the new line that 264 was not a scum read as a double down on saying that her tunnel comment did not imply a town read. Because both are simply true.

I think I'm gonna drop this conversation now.

it wasn't a new line, i said it in the original post, you just ignored it. saying someone needs more suspicions is not a scumread. she did not list meuh in her scumreads at any point in d1. there's no reason to believe that it was a scumread. i do find it suspect that as someone who has had marci as their primary focus all game, you would not have a grasp on her progressions and would just be ctrl+F-ing meuh to find things that support your point. i do, in fact, have higher standards for your methodology, and i think that you do as well

but okay, fine, i don't think you should be eliminated today anyway so we don't have to go further with this now. i just wanted to get my thoughts out there because i don't want to risk the chance of dying with them unsaid

[fireisredsir]

@fire there is a difference between having votes and being a viable wagon

I knew that meuh had votes, but it didn't need to be addressed at the point where it's like 2 votes, in the same way that I won't address a wagon on myself if it has 2 votes normally

my comment to you is not necessarily about convincing you, it is giving you a heads up that if you try to come for Meuh then I will prob turn it on. honestly that might not be the worst thing in the world (I don't mean "turn it on" like to be a dick or that I'll be super aggro) but I mean more that if you are thinking this is an easy push or a simple compromise push, you may want to find another target

I also find it... hard to believe from a base level that you can't see thought progressions when looking at her ISO, although I'm not towncasing her rn

well, that actually sounds more like incentive to keep voting her then tbh. would prefer for you to turn it on. and she did have 4 votes earlier and was a leading wagon, i believe vp left

i see some thought progressions but some points where they don't make sense and i def do not think that she has the most clear thought progressions in the game

[fireisredsir]

you are correct val, i only now realized that luke though it meant the former

fine with ending this discussion for now unless you have things you want me to respond to, luke, i want to talk to meuh, i think that would be more productive at this time

[fireisredsir]

TLDR: I wasn’t in a particularly good mood and your vote felt like something that piled onto a general pushback against me so I didn’t really see a reason to individually address it.

If you wanna discuss it now, I’m down

ok

1) i don't think it's very reasonable to say that you're an easy read. i read through your flash games scumgame and you started off pretty strong and imo only really fell off near the end, but expressed a desire post-game to put in more effort next time and keep improving. i don't think you've really been around long enough to be declared as a polarized player. also, std just said this almost exactly to me in a game where people said he was out of his scumrange, and i ended up believing it, and he was scum, and i lost in elo by not voting him. so im not feeling super inclined to follow arguments along those lines rn

2) my reaction to seeing the lavar flip was that i may be seeing the game from the wrong angle and that if i was on the wrong page, then the people who i felt like i was on the same page with... may not have good intentions. did you feel that way at all, prior to my pushing back in your gorilla case?

3) walk me through your progression on lavar. when i reread i found it hard to believe as genuine, and felt like i may have had it backwards on who was scum in the interaction between you two. what did you see prior to 296 that you felt were good vibes, enough for you to sheep a prior scumread? what made you decide to vote him in 822? i thought that you adding on the reasoning in 833 after the vote was kinda sketchy, although I agreed with it at the time

4) i know you've explained your thought process here a bit but i still feel like i need more. i just cannot understand how you were townbinning gorilla, even at the start of d2, then only really started considering him as a partner to marci, but still focused your push primarily on him, and now still seem to be scumreading him. can you summarize your reasons for scumreading gorilla, and what changed your read, independent of marci? 1295 just seems really counter to everything you've said about the slot previously. 1300 is also very odd considering you were one of the people declaring him town early

5) i still don't really buy your reasoning for scum being on the dwlee wagon. do you stand by that?

[fireisredsir]

The strength it takes of me to open this game.

You can just sheep me. Vote cakez. We can also kill dwlee

id vote dwlee too actually

[fireisredsir]

And yes, I do know that the logical argument constructed from my claim would be a fallacy of affirming the consequent. But my claim is probabilistic; Cakez is very often like this as town (maybe 90%, at least in my experience), and the chance that he can pull it off this game in a way that feels very similar is lower (maybe 50%? I don't want to give him too little credit here), so his odds of being town increase.

i still haven't seen you say that you explicitly have experience with him as scum where he is not like this. so i will ask directly: do you? if not, i don't see where your 50% is coming from at all

my read of his meta was not exhaustive, but i mostly came to the conclusion that this is more just a style that is indicative of cakez, not that it is a style indicative of town cakez

[fireisredsir]

hmm ty for the detailed response, i can see where you're coming from more on some of the points

i still am not quite sure i buy the lavar progression as being genuine but i don't think there's much more you could say about it, seeing your perspective on your interaction with him is kiiiinda believable although i still feel like there was something weird with the energy there

for gorilla... so would you say that your main reasoning is that he lacks scumhunting? is there more to it than that? thats not really at all the impression that i get, i feel like i can track his thought process and i think he's mostly been making good points and being proactive to push the game forward. he hasn't really been in depth casing people but thats not necessarily an inherently towny thing to do anyway. he has clearly been reading the game and reassessing things, and rereading the ISO i don't feel like any of his movements seem scum motivated. even if you see it differently, i don't think that "not really scumhunting" supports a vote, considering the multiple other slots who would fit that description. why do you think he is more likely to be scum than them?

anyway i think that's an alright response overall and im okay with moving here for now

VOTE: Dwlee

[fireisredsir]

ok in the first game i played with dwlee (town, link: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=88709&user_select%5B%5D=26193) they were pretty involved in the early game. then they found a scumread for tbh a pretty minimal reason, and then they game got kinda spammy and they didn't really make an effort to engage with the direction of the thread or with questions, they mostly just kept telling people to vote their scumread.

the main thing to me tho was the attitude, they didn't really care much at all what others thought of them, or if they appeared caught up/engaged, they just wanted their scumread dead. im not saying all dwlee town games are like this, but i think its kinda representative of their attitude when they aren't super active in a game

ive also read through this geriatric game (scum, viewtopic.php?p=13213259&user_select%5B ... #p13213259), which i think is somewhat comparable to this due to the posting limitations. they had to be slightly more engaged due to it being a 9p, but they really struggled to get into the game. andante was in this game so she may be able to say more, but from my reading it looks pretty similar to this, just with a little bit more attempt at scumhunting and posting reads on d1, but not by much, and that fell off completely by d2.

i have a really hard time seeing posts like 996 or 1369 come from town dwlee. they just feel really stiff and uncomfortable in a way that i am not used to at all from dwlee, and especially the first one is just phrased in a much more performance way than ive ever seen town dwlee care about. ive felt that kind of vibe since early but didn't scumread it, until i reread dwlee scum games and realized that it may just be that it doesn't feel familiar bc im used to seeing town dwlee. this really feels similar to scum dwlee

[fireisredsir]

VOTE: Dunn
Was gonna wait for a response to my question but I don't think it will sway my read that much on the slot. I think the pattern Cake pointed out is right

why did you think your question (im assuming you're talking about you asking about why he posted the league game plist??) was significant in the first place?

[fireisredsir]

Cause I was in that game and if he had something relevant to say about it I wanted to hear it

me and marci were talking about it right before. did you just pull it from his iso without looking at the context?

[fireisredsir]

-snip-

Did you just meta me with two games under different circumstances and then act like it was completely representative of the current context

no i linked two games as examples

i think the town game is representative of your general town attitude and approach to games, which ive experienced a lot. that game felt the most similar circumstances to this of ones ive played bc you were fairly low activity for most of it. but i don't think your attitude and approach in this is similar to how you usually play town at all. at first i just wrote it off as you trying a different style, and i agreed with your direction, so i ignored the feeling

but when reading a scum game that i think is under somewhat similar circumstances, it felt very similar, and i realized that may be the difference that i was feeling

meta is obv not the sole reason to vote you. you've just been straight up scummy. i just think that it also happens to support it

[fireisredsir]

you're right my bad, it wasn't a 100% exact match, it's really unfortunate that my entire point rested on the games being exactly the same and not that they were just examples to support a general point about your approach and attitude in games

but luckily i found a better scum game that matches the circumstances much more closely:

viewtopic.php?p=13394870&user_select%5B ... #p13394870

[fireisredsir]

Fire took something that is "generally" true about my scum vs town game, and then lied about the application of it, which is pointed out by Andante who was not trying to make a point about this saying she thought I didn't care this game whereas Fire is trying to read into my posts and fabricate the caring he wants you to think exists

nah this is just wrong lol

you're taking a single phrase from andante, that you "don't seem concerned", and taking it as proof that you aren't caring about your own appearances this game

despite the fact that earlier you admitted it was true that you were primarily focused on responding to things about yourself when catching up

how can those two ideas coexist?

its very clear that the bulk of your posts are about your own appearances or what people think of you and not proactively scunhunting

[fireisredsir]

48
241
1238

Are the only posts fire has made about or in response to dunn. Feel like fire is just trying to push me without actually engaging with the Dunn wagon, and his posts about Dunn consist of things like "teehee what if I townread dunn for a bad reason"

ive already said (maybe it was in the hood? idr) that i like dunn/dwlee as being the main wagons. idk why you would expect me to engage heavily with the dunn wagon here? i don't have very strong feelings on it

personally i think he's felt tonally very similar to his spring fling play, including the way that he's reacted to some of the pushes on him. bell i believe in that game said that he often responds to things in a sassy/snarky way as town and i felt a lot of that here. there is some lack of proactivity and scumhunting, though, so im not opposed to the wagon. my gut could be wrong on him, so im not like gonna fight the people scumreading him, i just think you're much more likely to be scum

[fireisredsir]

Cause I was in that game and if he had something relevant to say about it I wanted to hear it

me and marci were talking about it right before. did you just pull it from his iso without looking at the context?

And I think you would connect that this shows that I'm skimming, right. So then when I see my name it garners more attention. Because it's me. So I notice it.

yes i didn't think i had to spell out my point here but i can if you insist

if you genuinely cared about the answer to your question i see no reason why you would ask about it instead of just click the link to the post and see the posts right before it to see the context. your question is literally "how is this relevant". there is a very easy way to check relevance for things

asking about it is purely perfomative there is no genuine hunting for alignment or even any care for what the answer is, because if you cared you would... just check

[fireisredsir]

Anyway I'd expect you to talk about Dunn cause I'm pretty sure he's the other main wagon rn so if you want to convince people voting Dunn to vote me you should engage with why they think dunn is scum and then convince them I'm more likely instead

im pretty sure i was literally just doing that by further explaining my thought process on why i think you're more likely to be scum

talking to the dunn voters makes sense, yes, and i probably would do that if any of them were here. that's different from talking about dunn. you're moving the goalposts

[fireisredsir]

Are the only posts fire has made about or in response to dunn. Feel like fire is just trying to push me without actually engaging with the Dunn wagon, and his posts about Dunn consist of things like "teehee what if I townread dunn for a bad reason"

Anyway I'd expect you to talk about Dunn cause I'm pretty sure he's the other main wagon rn so if you want to convince people voting Dunn to vote me you should engage with why they think dunn is scum and then convince them I'm more likely instead

these are different things, no?

talking about dunn vs talking to the dunn voters to convince then that you're scum

i mean maybe i misunderstood the original point but in that case i just don't think the original point is valid, idk why linking my posts about dunn is relevant when you're saying i should be talking to the dunn voters about you

[fireisredsir]

About Dunn or to Dunn. If you're talking to dunn voters about the Dunn wagon and why you think the dwlee wagon is better, then you would have to mention Dunn. So that would be about dunn still

okay, idk i think i wouldn't really be tearing down their dunn suspicions bc why would i do that? i would just be explaining to them why i think you're scum

and yes i haven't really done that yet as far as i remember bc i haven't really had any dunn voters to talk to since it became clear those were the two main wagons, which i think was just last night. it feels like you're expecting something that there just isn't really any rational reason why it would exist given the context of the game and how it's progressed, which makes me think it's just a made up reason to try to discredit

i feel like you've played with me enough to know that im not really the kind of person to strongarm people into voting my scumread and tell them that my scumread is more valid than theirs. i kinda really hate doing that. the only time i can ever recall doing that is when i had a guilty

[fireisredsir]

Also just gonna point out I think now you're moving the goalposts. (How exciting!) because your complaint was "it shouldn't matter that I wasn't talking about Dunn if I'm engaging with his voters" but now it's "it shouldn't matter that I'm not engaging with his voters because there hasn't been time to"

thats because i was more interested in how i felt your point was not logically sound than about how it didn't necessarily apply bc the way in which you make the point is more relevant to your alignment and i care more about sorting you than defending myself

[fireisredsir]

not a ton tbh, im still not really convinced you believe it to be a good point that applies to the current situation but i can at least see a world where you could see it as a valid one

i don't think its like an especially towny reaction overall but at least you seem to somewhat have a read now

[fireisredsir]

Dunn - Strongly feel that they should die. gorilla's said some similar stuff to what I'm about to (I have 1473 and 1485 in my notes in particular) but have a nice new condensed version with maybe a couple bonuses, freed from the wallpost swamp of the past.
A huge chunk of his iso for today has been nitpicking and gotchas of "NEVER SAID/DID THAT" instead of actually going over his reads in any detail, and I still have basically no idea what his reads are on the vast majority of the playerlist (he has scumreads on gorilla & cakez, and maybe still on marci I think. he's commented on VPB but as far as I see, not shared a read on him.) All the poking questions day 1 with no reads from him as followups followed by this feels like trying to keep an intentionally low profile and not give useful info for when he does get elim'd/invictus'd in the future. Also I think his push on gorilla is bad and feels more performative on his part than an actual effort to convince people that gorilla is scum and should die.

Dwlee- I wish they were townier than they are so Dunn had a better chance of being elim'd today. *The crowd to me: Are they actually town though?* My gut feeling is slightly town, and I have seen them as scum before which was not like this, but that scum game of theirs was 6 years ago and I have no confidence in them playing even remotely similar to their scum-game that long ago. I would love to see them go into a few of townreads b/c I think that could be readable for them. If you REALLY think they're scum I don't think I have a good argument to dissuade you at the moment, but I do encourage you to take another look at Dunn for me.

dunn - i think these are pretty decent points and did make me reconsider a bit. idk if you've played with dunn before but my impression is that the nitpicking is... kind of his thing. i don't really think its scummy for him, when people are WRONG especially about something relevant to him he will insist on making that clear. looking through his ISO i think the biggest thing that i feel is missing is, like... insightful points? there's really nothing he's said that I feel like isn't something i would have thought of, and thats what I kinda expect from the town dunn that ive read. 1467 is probably the only thing that qualifies, but i don't really think its a super meaningful point. the lack of proactive scumhunting is also scummy on a surface level at least

where im hung up on is that the tone in a lot of his responses... i just feel like i can feel the town energy in them. like 1234. and the sassiness in his responses to gorilla in 1296 and 1304. idk. it just seems like a really unnecessary attitude to take if he's scum, it's like guaranteed to make gorilla annoyed and likely won't accomplish much. I just don't really see the scum motivation behind that? maybe you do, thoughts?

dwlee - your points here are, as you might expect, not very convincing to me. if dunn lacks proactive scumhunting and is primarily focused on responses to points about himself, then i feel like dwlee fits a roughly similar mold, and im not sure what about those points aren't convincing to you when it comes to them

[fireisredsir]

Why is it town energy? What makes you think that the sass is from Dunn's alignment rather than his personality? Imo scum are more likely to be more dismissive instead of empathetic and (assuming that Dunn's scum) Dunn's #1296 & #1304 posts aren't *for* gorilla, they're for other people to see that Dunn doesn't think that gorilla's a threat and project confidence that gorilla doesn't have anything on him.

i mean, i guess it's partly gut. but it is also something that bell said in spring fling, that dunn as town is more likely to be somewhat dismissive and sassy when points that he deems to be wrong are made against him, and scum dunn tends to be more focused on tearing the points down logically. which, i guess he's done some of that too

@bell, thoughts?

on the gorilla point, hmm yes this sounds very familiar to gorilla behavior in the wild. i believe this means that dunn is attempting to show that he is the dominant male and should be the one leading the pack

actually tho idk, i could maybe see that. i don't think anyone really townread him for it (p sure you found it suspicious even?), and i wouldn't really expect anyone to, so i still don't really see why he would take that approach. imo scum dunn would be better served by getting on people's good side and not antagonizing people

[fireisredsir]

I believe that they are out of their "scum range" which is (no offense) not very large.

only slightly offended :<

i don't reaaaalllyy think that the 1 game is a very valid point of comparison to how i would be playing this game, since it was smaller, was an unusual setup, and played out somewhat weirdly as well

[fireisredsir]

i mean, i guess it's partly gut. but it is also something that bell said in spring fling, that dunn as town is more likely to be somewhat dismissive and sassy when points that he deems to be wrong are made against him, and scum dunn tends to be more focused on tearing the points down logically. which, i guess he's done some of that too

I was town in spring fling though, and they made that argument in that game to argue that I was scum (and they were also town).

...yes, i know. are you saying that the given aspect of reading you is inaccurate? or that bell applied it incorrectly? not sure the relevance of this

[fireisredsir]

I quoted the player list in the other game because people were talking about it.

Dwlee I pointed out how my play in this game is not omgus against sircakez, other players have too. Why are you still pushing this? It's not true that I started voting or even pushing sircakez after they pushed me. I pointed out how me giving a read on sircakez was in response to somebody else asking.

This isn't what I remember finding the first time but I think it fits the criteria

Both of these posts happen in another game

What is your argument for

this game

?

hmmm I actually don't see it here. I kinda just believed cakez it happened here and then was like oh well if it happened here then that would be scummy

posts like this kinda make me hesitate tbh. would scum dwlee just drop the point and admit that they basically didn't actually check if it was a good point before making it? it seems kinda bold to me

[fireisredsir]

Dwlee can you now explain how what you post in 1711 relates to this game

So you've pointed out something in another game, but where does it come up in this game? The so-called derisive OMGUS, as it were.

Also I'm interested in what the tonal differences you mentioned in 1660 are

You are being more differential I think. Like posts like these feel very appeasy is the way I would put it, which is also what Noraa has described as being your scum game

What part of these are appeasing...?

The way it's phrased is like "please explain your opinion so I can understand it" instead of "you lying scumbag I never did this thing" but it's weak and when I realize that Cakez just made that OMGUS stuff up it makes me want to vote him more than Dunn or my new shiny scumread

for the record i don't really agree with this at all. dunn is just a polite person (mostly, which is why imo its hilarious when he's not) even when he thinks he is talking to scum. the posts here sound more on the accusatory side to me in the way he phrased them, def not reconciliatory

i think your points about the meuh post are valid. i wanna know if you have any reads on people (besides the counterwagon dunn) unrelated to their engagement with you. mostly cause i think it's kind of often a scum tactic to primarily focus on those people especially when likely going down. can be townreads or scumreads idc

[fireisredsir]

Not really because the only stuff there's been that I've digested is in relation to me over the past idk day or two. If you have batches of posts in mind for me to give my opinion on I can do that when I am free. I don't think a thorough reread (the "re" is even stretching it with how much I had to skim) is in order here though on a time basis

hmm ok i guess, not even any townreads? the thing is like if you flip scum here we learn almost nothing from your posts bc you're mostly engaging with the people based around their suspicions on you which are either town or scum on a topic that is relatively easy to fake interactions with

which is why there's scum motivation to make that your focus. its good antispew tactics

and plus seeing reads from outside what are sort of... current events, would be useful for helping sort you from a different angle

im also just kind of used to town you getting reads on people that others might not really care about or listen to but you care and you wanna talk about them. i haven't really seen that here at all and it kinda feels like you're mostly just rolling with the punches and making reads as they're convenient to you based on who you're talking to

so you don't have to like full reread if you don't have time but if you do end up with any reads that are unrelated to you then share them pls

[fireisredsir]

And that is unrelated to any engagement with myself so hopefully that read fits

unfortunately if you flip scum it heavily spews you as scum so i don't think this read provides any additional information

[fireisredsir]

I'm fairly invested in a dwlee flip tbh. I don't think they are addressing this pressure well, and there is a lot of info to be gained in that flip. Meuh is bad, but is almost so aloof I think it is town.

i thought meuh's response to me earlier was p decent but i feel like she kinda dipped down a bit once the pressure on her was gone and that feels a little scummy to me

[fireisredsir]

I'm fairly invested in a dwlee flip tbh. I don't think they are addressing this pressure well, and there is a lot of info to be gained in that flip. Meuh is bad, but is almost so aloof I think it is town.

i thought meuh's response to me earlier was p decent but i feel like she kinda dipped down a bit once the pressure on her was gone and that feels a little scummy to me

By “dipped down” you mean that I’ve been around less? Or smth else

partly yea, and just generally having a lower profile when you are around. even your post on dwlee felt like it was kind of trying to go with the flow more than be proactive

[fireisredsir]

Also meuh and VP are coordinating to try to rush through the phase

do you think that scum partners are likely to do this? i assume that's what you're saying here. i feel like it would require there to be a really good reason for them to choose to do that in a way that could be noticeable, what's the reason?

[fireisredsir]

@fireisred: I don't need to know further details, but can you consider letting us know if you have any idea what Kovu is talking about, and if you concur with the assessment.

I worry that the more times I see Kovu poping in with this sort of obviously antitown play; the business with RR/Mala, the fucking around with Luke, and now this, the more I wonder if it's actually deliberate.

ill say that i know what she's talking about and that i don't want to lim cakez today

[fireisredsir]

I'm struggling to believe that gorilla looks at my play around marci all game, and is ever worried that I am actively trying to pocket her.

VOTE: gorilla


I think it more likely that it is scum not wanting me to write marci off as town and also not wanting me written off as town (added to meuhs point about his reaction to bell)

Not to beetle juice gorilla calling me and dunn parters or anything, but I actually think that I would prefer a Dunn elim to a dwlee elim.

Gorilla I did notice that you were pushing dunn. However, I am not convinced on either of your alignments enough to use that to clear either of you. Obviously, if either of you do flip scum then I will re-evaluate the other, but definitely not taking either of you off for the other one.

Also, you are not my biggest scum read rn. Cakez is. You were just simultaneously on the bottom half of my reads and an existing wagon that could reasonably go through with out me needing to commit major energy into making it happen. At a time where I actively didn't want a Meuh elim, and she was the other leading wagon

Gorilla, cakez is actually, in this moment, scaring me about the dunn elim then you ever would have :/

Laying in bed thinking about this game, and I've convinced myself of a gorilla town read

The more I think about these posts, the more I hate them.

They seems to be approaching the topic as "come up with something that scum could never post, or having thoughts that someone could be town is scummy and fake" -- when that is literally never how this game or reads work.

Scum can post literally anything. This is a game more about looking at a post, and asking whether is seems more likely something comes from town or scum, and imo, those reasons seemed more likely to come from town. Based on the difference in how scum or town approach building town reads.

But because there is a possibility that scum could make them (and I agree that that is a possibility) Gorilla is completely dismissing it, and not actually engaging in whether that logic would be more likely to come from town or scum.

VOTE: dwlee

I am ready to end the day and twin with Dunn.

I think tomorrow will be very enlightening

luke, can you talk about your progression on gorilla? you voted them, but unless ive missed something, most of your responses and posts about them seem to be about yourself and defensive, not really saying a whole lot about why gorilla is scum. the main reason i see is that you don't believe their claim that you're pocketing marci is believable

you then are somewhat reconciliatory towards gorilla, saying you would prefer a dunn lim to a dwlee lim (right after voting dwlee, and then immediately after that, going extremely hard on cakez for voting dunn)

then you said you got to a townread on gorilla without reasoning

and then now, gorilla is criticizing your townread on dunn, and you push back hard again, with language that makes it sound like you're scumreading gorilla

and then you vote dwlee and say you want to end the day

why did you townread them? why did you say to them that you would prefer a dunn elim to a dwlee elim, while voting dwlee and attacking cakez? what is your read on them now?

[fireisredsir]

ok well i guess being willing to vig them is answering the question of what your read is now. still curious about the other parts though

[fireisredsir]

when luke first partial claimed i thought it was def a vig that he was hinting at

but then as time went on i felt like the way that he played the day and played out the claim didn't really actually make sense for him to be a vigilante, bc it would be massively more beneficial for scum to not know what was coming, so i started to assume he was something else

and then he just claims vig anyway

so im kinda in agreement with gorilla there

[fireisredsir]

ok yea bell is right marci has just been floating for ages

[fireisredsir]

If he is scum, and I don't out, I die to his invictus.

Would scum have invictus shots? That seems to auto-punish a correct town vig.

maf did have invictus in the previous game fwiw

[fireisredsir]

ok yea bell is right marci has just been floating for ages

i just feel so bad... im heartbroken at seeing datisi flip town..

i really wanna talk about my reads but i. not so confident anymore.. i dont wanna be wrong a clown myself again

i don't really get this tbh, like i feel this way sometimes but i still will at least be trying to solve even if im not confident my solve is right or pushing for people to follow me. don't really see why town would be content to just sit there doing nothing

especially if you really want to talk about your reads... just do it? what are your reads?

[fireisredsir]

@Marci, will you commit to planting your invictus on gorilla overnight if Dunn dies today?

I think that Baltar's recent vote switch from dwlee to dunn is in hopes to keep me from being able to shoot there.

are you scumreading vp now?

[fireisredsir]

Baltar has made no real comments about starting to town read dwlee or about scum reading dunn harder, and the topic of conversation has largely been around the use of my vig shot.

yes, he did. 1940, 1956, 1969, 1976. i think his progression has been p clear actually, idk how you wouldn't have seen those if you were trying to sort him here

[fireisredsir]

You have an extra kill and want to use it in addition to the factional kill. That's not at all hard to figure out.

eh i kinda think that if luke is scum here he's not actually a vig and if he has the power it does something else

[fireisredsir]

@Luke - Again, you don't have to answer this right away b/c you're low on posts

but if Dunn flips scum, isn't that a pretty good reason to not vig/Invictus gorilla? Considering that he would be right about at least your reasons for finding Dunn-town being bad, if not (assuming you're town) your actual alignment? It feels like you're going all-in on gorilla scum even when a Dunn-scum flip objectively makes him much less likely to be scum.

this is actually a very good point and if luke is scum it may be TMIing dunn as town

gorilla paired with dunn makes not much sense, and luke says that he is willing to elim dunn as long as he still gets to shoot gorilla after??

the only way i can see that statement making any sense as town is if he is 100% deadset on gorilla scum and wants to shoot him out no matter what. but then why be okay with a dunn elim? in that world he should be fighting hard to lim someone else because he should think dunn is town. and if he thinks dunn could be scum, then why would he still want to 100% shoot gorilla? it sounds like he already knows what dunn will flip

[fireisredsir]

in fact there's an even stronger reason for dunn to not be partnered with gorilla in a luke town world

if he was he would never have offered to pair with luke on gorilla

i feel like that's something that should be in the forefront of luke's mind???

[fireisredsir]

…>.> I just don’t know how to say this after my last game with Luke but I really think this is their town game because they seem *this* close to having a meltdown and seem pretty mad overall. Whenever they get pushed this has been my experience with town Luke.

But I’ve never played with scum luke.

i don't think its exclusive to town luke

viewtopic.php?p=13383060#p13383060

[fireisredsir]

This feels like you are trying to draw a parallel between this game and that one, but I don't see the similarity from the drivers seat.

I don't think that I have actually gotten upset this game at all. Just gotten really convinced of my gorilla scum read.

I think that my play wrt to my PR makes absolutely no sense as coming from scum. Like at all. And I feel like if anyone actually stops and looks at all of the stances I have taken between - first approaching Bell without outing, then outing, not accepting twinning with marci, suggesting kovu, not accepting Dunns proposal, then accepting dunns proposal, then focusing on getting a back up plan to kill gorilla - it literally doesn't make sense coming from a scum version of my role.

But, I also don't think that it really matters. And it can be a discussion if I some how am alive tomorrow.

i thought it was relevant to what bell was talking about, at least. i don't think the situations are super similar though, it was more just an example of range

and i don't really think your play makes sense with your role as stated, either. i think that if you're scum you likely will still be alive tomorrow, and yes, it can be a discussion then. i don't really think you expect to die, because you have had a level of investment in convincing people that you're town post-claim that doesn't really seem like something you should care about if you are town with the role that you've stated

as for cakez, i don't see why thats a slot that needs to be sorted immediately. im deferring to kovu on this one and sticking with what i said earlier, that i don't want to elim him today

[fireisredsir]

6 pages since my VP Baltar case and the only response I got to it was Gorilla saying they see the similarities and Baltar calling me a troll and then ignoring me ultimately to wind up voting me.

I have 6 or 7 votes and the case was that I didn't post enough but people are still voting me despite me having well more than the median posts now.

Does anyone actually think I'm flipping scum here? Like seriously? Do people think that a super fast wagon that everyone is sticky to for no concrete reason is a wagon on scum?

Fey/Meuh/Baltar are all completely terrible votes on my wagon. Fake reasons and conviction for me being scum. Lots of words with no actual thought going into these votes.

Enchant is just sitting on me for fun.

I don't know why fireisred is on me still but he at least seemed genuine in scumreading me

Kovu said bullshit, got called on it, and then promptly ignored me. Sadly this is completely consistent with her recent town games so she is probably still town

Lukewarm just wants the day to end apparently which is lazy and awful when there's actually good cases on other people and we have almost 2 days left.

i don't really think the baltar case is very convincing to me tbh, i don't feel like the similarities are particularly relevant partly bc the gamestates were vastly different

i still think this isn't far off at all from how i would expect scum to behave here and im not sure i buy the conviction on vp scum but maybe thats just cause I don't really see it

i could maybe move to meuh though

[fireisredsir]

ok sure why not

VOTE: Meuh

[fireisredsir]

ehh i just went back and read and saw the "meuh/vp are a scumteam coordinating to end the day early" take again

still feels like that was just flailing to try to find something that would stick

[fireisredsir]

Fire... Baltar is trying to get me mislimmed by 1.) Saying I'm acting stupid when I should be smart, and therefore I'm scum and 2.) Claiming he is trying to give me a "good faith read" but I'm "trolling him"

Both of these are literally identical to KTANE. What aren't you seeing exactly?

This doesn't even include his snark on me for not being in thread during work.

I cannot wrap my head around what could be so hard to understand about this

he does those things as town too though, ive had him do similar to me as town

in that game he felt like he was going at you with some passion and almost over the top aggression and because he really needed to in order to keep himself alive. here he doesnt have that as much, but also isn't under any threat, hence me saying its hard to compare

[fireisredsir]

idk what i prefer

tbh probably once meuh shows up and starts talking again ill prefer dwlee again

i don't wanna make decisions

[fireisredsir]

idk what i prefer

tbh probably once meuh shows up and starts talking again ill prefer dwlee again

i don't wanna make decisions

There's that town cowardice I know and love.
*high fives*

you don't even know how stressed having an invictus shot makes me

if i die and shoot town with it i might cry

can't believe there's people out there who actually enjoy randing vig

*takes reins*

Fire who do you wanna lim? *let’s go of reins*

I’m utterly and totally tunneled on Baltar.
I’m open to Marci if Luke is comfortable killing there.

ok this is bullying

~

idk if there's more specific things to respond to but ima just thoughtdump on the people currently in question:

- dwlee has been under pressure almost all of the time that they've been here and that alone kinda makes me hesitate, bc maybe they are just struggling to get their footing. it can happen to town too. i remember in ktane i wasn't used to everyone suspecting me and was kinda flail-y and kinda jumped around a lot and not everything i said made sense. i kinda have felt some of those vibes from dwlee here. i think that reaction to pressure tends to get scumread but it isn't always right to do so. idk. could still be scum, but slightly leaning away from here atm

- meuh has had her moments where it feels like a town light is shining through, but they feel kinda few and far between to me. there's been too many moments to me that feel like they are constructed to look like she's following town thought process but actually feel like the direction was determined in advance. i just don't really see a natural evolution of reads based on new information, it feels like intentional positioning. i still think this is prob my preferred vote

- marci i scumread early for lack of what i felt like was genuine thought process to support her reads, but then i kinda started to feel like people were taking advantage of her being an easy push and it sketched me out a bit. then she just completely disappeared d2 and it seemed like everyone forgot about her. which... i kinda feel like if she was town then scum would have been more active in trying to bring that wagon back? i don't 100% agree with all of kovu's reasoning but i like the push and agree with the suspicion. she basically has done nothing towny in a while and wasn't really all that towny to begin with, would vote here

- vp i also scumread early, and actually felt p strong about it at the time, but then i felt like he actually towned it up a ton (for him) in the time since. i think generally his interactions with dwlee are surface level Not Great but remind me of some interactions he's had with me, that in the past i found it hard to see him as town for but ik now that's more just how he plays things. plan to reread today since some people seem reasonably convinced and maybe ive been giving him too much of a pass but i don't really see myself voting here atm

[fireisredsir]

ok so on vp

i was rereading, fully expecting that once i saw his earlygame i would be reminded of why i found it scummy originally, and would see it that way again, but... i don't really. even looking at my own posts on it from the time i don't feel as strongly anymore. i can see town him responding in that way to the posts that i made, too.

the only thing that i still think really holds for me is how he went on full aggressive attack mode right after bell called him out for being too nice and working together too much to be town. that is still an action that i can totally see scum vp doing, and feels a little odd to be a coincidence. i also don't fully buy the confidence on wanting to push bell, that felt like it could be a positioning move.

but then posts like 620 i really like. some of the things with val especially are points that i wouldn't really expect scum vp to make because i don't think they really get him anywhere, and there's some nuance in the post that feels... unmotivated? like he's not really pushing an agenda at all.

i think his actions near end of day 1 felt generally like pro-town proactivity, i guess its slightly more questionable if dwlee is town, but if that's the case then i don't think he really needs to put himself in the spotlight as taking deliberate action there

d2 early also feels p towny for vp to me. maybe bc i generally agreed with the directions that he was pushing, but idk, it feels like he came to those pushes independently, i didn't feel like it came along with any attempt to pocket me or anything. some of the interaction with dwlee is meh but idk if its that scummy for vp. i think I've felt "there's no way he can seriously believe the things he's saying" more often from town vp than scum vp

i do think vp is wrong that he is exactly the same in terms of content as both alignments and only differs in action. i think as scum he's more careful about who he wants to play nice with. i don't really feel that here. as scum i think he also is a bit more content to not be proactive at times. there's been times this game, late d1 and early d2 especially, that i feel like he has been proactive at times where he wouldn't really need to be as scum. that's not like hard clearing at all, but it is town points imo

so eh. i don't really see it. i also think that, especially due to some of the actions he's taken, he will be more sortable once there's more flips, so i don't really think it's a good lim today. and tbh the fact that he has taken action that will make him more sortable with more flips kinda makes me lean towards him just being town, bc thats something i would expect him to avoid as scum unless it was really necessary

[fireisredsir]

VOTE: Marcistar
Probably the best option at this point?
I'm feeling like my suspicion on VPB might be tainted by annoyance

didn't like the vp vote and wasn't really expecting to see this but i think i might like this post actually

VOTE: marci

let's do it

[fireisredsir]

I don't like the post

what about the post do you not like?

[fireisredsir]

ngl a lot of the setup spec stuff goes over my head. im not exactly sure how to speculate on balance when

1) we don't know how many maf there are
2) we only have a flipped goon
3) we don't know maf remaining power

normally i would prob just pick someone to trust on it but my mind goes to dunn and idk if i trust him lol. whered reason go? get him back in here, i want his thoughts

i had fey as most likely scum partners with marci overnight, along with dunn. i was also kinda tunneled on luke and was rethinking my townread on vp, so the flips are not really what i expected to see. and after them i had a team guess of fey/dunn/meuh. but then seeing meuh and dunn jump on fey immediately is uhh... makes me a bit hesitant. i guess i kind of like that fey and dunn are the two names that meuh pulled out as well? not sure

[fireisredsir]

Kovu's crossvote and push on marci felt like it came out of nowhere and seemed pretty plausible as a end of day distance/bus that went wrong and got attention when scum-marci didn't expect it to. Kovu's actual votes have been pretty mediocre aside from the one on marci imo, they're putting a ton of effort into the game but they're my personal pick for a potential deepwolf
Dunn & Meuh are leftover scumreads from yesterday - Dunn is still a fine vote even though I think marci would prob have refused to vote with me on Dunn yesterday regardless of Dunn's alignment, Meuh miiight still be too but I need to reread a fair bit and see how much that actually makes sense

p-edit: What makes you think Kovu is v. likely town aside from *effort* gorilla? Also when you're done reading up lmk who you're most confident on being scum atm

ik you can't see the hood but i really don't think kovu is scum. i had some times of doubting it but like... tons of effort and enthusiasm to solve. that's the biggest tell for town kovu from what ive heard, and there's plenty of it. in hood a lot of it is both of us just kind of dumping various thoughts and questioning each other on things and like... there isn't much in there where i feel like she's pocketing me. and yes we have a ton of posts lmao but they're mostly 1 liners, we're both talkative chat maf players who like sorting people based on real time engagement... and it's a game with a postcap in main thread.

plus like, if you wanna base it just on actions in the game, the marci lim doesn't happen if she doesn't start the wagon there. it was just unnecessary. she could have stayed on dwlee and pushed them through easily

[fireisredsir]

I’m not *super* sure, but I don’t think gorilla is lying either.

yea agreed on gorilla, esp with the reaction to marci's claim. that would be bold to fake counterclaim with 2 protective lmao

it doesn't make a ton of sense for val to fakeclaim but i did consider the possibility of it being a scum trueclaim, if the hoods are clean (which they might be? idk, im not sure on cakez being maf yet, and im p sure kovu is town) then it could make sense to have a scum TA to find the hoods + possibly you if thats included. ive been mostly townreading them off play this game tho so meh

[fireisredsir]

I mean, we're happy to do that if you flip town, sure

Also kinda wanna chain Cakez and force him to put us in the hood with Bell and Kovu

~rhyme

i think that if cakez lives, for the sake of val it makes the most sense to put you in if anyone since val doesn't need to check you

[fireisredsir]

My role doesn’t create neighborhoods.

I’m a friendly neighbor.
Not a friendly neighborizor.

mailman is a hit for TA though, its not a PT cop, some people were talking about being unsure if friendly neighbor is

[fireisredsir]

I am uncomfortable with Fey being the default wagon. I think mechanically cakez makes sense as scum in addition to his play around marci looking like distancing. I also think a team with cakez on it has significant reason to kill Baltar.

do you think baltar was the nk? i was thinking mala but maybe thats cause i was thinking baltar could be scum, so it kinda makes sense luke would shoot there

eod he was talking about how his read was tanking on baltar

[fireisredsir]

cakez is at e-2 btw

he might be maf but like can we not speedrun the day please? ik everyone went and found their favorite marci partners overnight, i did too, but we have 4 new flips this morning and i feel like that changes things enough where we can slow down and take a breath a little bit

things feel weird rn and i don't like it

[fireisredsir]

Fire is this true?

yes it is lol

[fireisredsir]

I don't think scum can manage to get up to a 1500 post private topic

if you think this, why do you think it's unnatural for cakez to not have suspicion towards kovu? wouldn't that apply to her too?

[fireisredsir]

LMAO

that would be p funny if that was a scumslip

i was about to respond to his wallpost and then i see this. gonna wait to see how he responds

[fireisredsir]

i think the more important thing would be his explanation for why he is writing it in a notes PT

[fireisredsir]

I just don’t know why some links would be available and some wouldn’t from a notes PT post.

i believe the way post tags work is that once you hit preview they resolve to a url, and if it can't find the post number it just links to post 0 of the topic. so the ones that are private were resolved while in a private topic, and the ones that link correctly were resolved while in here.

i have seen town do it before tho, in a newbie that prism was in actually lol, but i think they got policied for it

[fireisredsir]

Kovu suggested Dwlee, Fire, RR, VPB and Bell

fmpov this sure sounds like you didn't have an opportunity to add a scum buddy so idk why you said that was an option for you

vp and dwlee flipped town, bell and RR are conftown, im town

???

what did you mean by that

[fireisredsir]

Y'all can tell me who to hood idc
I picked Bell because he's conftown so it was the obvious choice
I would have brought a scum buddy in if I was scum here and I would have easily gotten away with it because Kovu literally gave me like five options to choose

?

[fireisredsir]

even if you're suggesting a world where you could be scum with me that makes no sense bc you gain very little from adding me when im already in a hood with kovu

[fireisredsir]

i was confused cause you made it sound like you could have easily gotten away with choosing a scumbuddy bc kovu gave you 5 options to choose from

that implies to me that there is someone in the 5 options that is a valid scumbuddy for you

fmpov and imo from even an objective pov there isn't one

that is kinda ? for me bc you were giving it as a reason for why you're not scum here

your explanation that the two statements of "i could have gotten away with it" and "kovu gave me five options" are unconnected is kinda a stretch for me to believe but idk. ima talk to kovu about this

[fireisredsir]

ok kovu has assuaged my concerns

VOTE: Dunn

[fireisredsir]

people have posted a lot while i was writing but this was vaguely in response to 2611.

i think there's like a classic mental mistake people make where they group people in the game, sort them into bins, and think there must be, like, one scum in each group

like one lurker/coaster, one deepwolf, one powerwolf, or whatever

it sounds nice but its usually not how it works

i think its actually a town mistake more often than not, just bc scum aren't really thinking about the game in that level of sorting. they're picking either who they think are scummy or who advances scum wincon for them to push. but town trying to hero solve is thinking of what makes sense for a scum team playing optimally and positioning beautifully and all that, when scum teams often are just kinda blundering their way along. i think town tend to overestimate the level of planning and coordination that scum teams have. and tbh based on who is left in the poe i don't really feel like the scum team is likely to be super coordinated anyway

thats to say that i think gamma is wrong about kovu but i think its kinda towny that he thinks that. i also think that for similar reasons, he's wrong that meuh and dunn can't be scum together as he said in 2441. he used similar logic of how they were too closely aligned in their position throughout the game and... sometimes that just happens. i don't think thats a valid way of ruling out scum pairings. people don't look at someone after they flip and go, "hey, this other slot followed almost their exact same trajectory and position in the game, they must have been scum partners!" that just doesn't really happen. so im not even sure what the argument is for why two similarly positioned people can't be paired

[fireisredsir]

ok uh

i kinda actually like dunn's latest posts

i think the point about fey's progression on cakez is good actually, the way she went from not really interacting that strongly to what felt like her saying "if you lim me without killing cakez next its a gamethrow" (ik she didn't literally say that but those were the vibes i got) is... not really supported.

i think the point about gamma feeling like he just kind of... decided that two certain people can't be scum together (in this case fey and cakez) without really doing the work to see if that holds up rings true for me. especially bc i had brought up how i felt a similar way about gamma saying that meuh+Dunn couldn't be paired, in 2623, which he didn't respond to btw. I kinda feel like gamma's effort is being spent where it is needed in order to convince, rather than in order to solve. which in turn kind of makes me hesitate and question if i should have been convinced so easily by his case on dunn. im not really sure that it makes gamma scum. but it does make me a little less enthused to follow him onto dunn

so yea, idk, after taking a step back a bit (and reflecting, haha) i kinda am less excited about a dunn lim

and while sheeping conftown onto cakez honestly just sounds lovely, and im feeling the last day of school, ready to relax for the summer, don't do work just float along kinda vibes... im not really sold on cakez either and wouldn't really be able to forgive myself if i compromised on cakez and he flipped town and i didn't fight for a lim on someone that i do actually scumread

someone that ive been rereading a lot of, debating about with kovu in the hood, etc, which is meuh

this post got way longer than i planned bc as i looked further into the things i found to be scummy, i kept finding more, so ima split it into two

[fireisredsir]

so meuh.

sometimes her posts feel genuine and i want to townread her, but i think there's just a few things that i really have trouble getting over and i keep coming back to them. these are the biggest things for me:

1) the start of d2 push on gorilla. its already been pointed out how strange it was, saying that gorilla looks paired with marci and then voting gorilla. but with marci flipping scum i think it might just straight up be tmi. newer scum have that issue a lot i think, where they look for fake associatives with their scum partners in order to tie them together but do it before the partner even flips. the reasoning in 1365 for why she's going after gorilla instead of marci is p weak and her whole response to the pushback on it kind of feels like she realizes she messed up and is going into damage control mode.

2) her progression on marci. 162 and 207 feel blatantly partner-y to me. kind of awkwardly talking around a read, and saying "eh ill have a better read later". for people who to my understanding are friends and have played together a lot, it doesn't feel like a natural interaction at all. she starts off with more of a scumlean, but spends the whole day voting other wagons, quickly finds a weak reason to TR marci in 310, gradually townreads more and more, and then in 822 says the marci lim is bad and votes the counterwagon.

then early d2 she quickly shades baltar for questioning Marci in 1162, says marci is +town for LLD's death in 1176 and 1190, and then in her readlist in 1233 has a much more noncommittal, questioning read of marci. i think this has significant scum motivation bc if someone isn't looking closely, they'll think she just kinda nullreads Marci and is willing to consider her scum, but her action that she is taking in the thread is all counter to that. she is continually pointing out reasons Marci could be town, and not reasons why she could be scum, as if she is arguing against what she already knows to be true.

she then turns hard onto marci in posts like 1289. here she is acting like she is suddenly now convinced marci is scum and and is pulling out every reason she can find. but the thing that makes this feel like it's just planted for cred is that there's zero followup. she pivots this into the gorilla/marci s/s and stays on gorilla. then she hops around other wagons, never voting marci, until finally at the end when it's hard to avoid. the thing that makes this scum is that it isn't accurately recreating a town mindset. if she truly did suddenly find marci as scum and had all of these good reasons, to the point where she's preflipping her onto gorilla, why doesn't she ever contribute to the pressure there? why is she continually pushing other wagons? why does the read on marci seem to come and go in her mind based on whatever is convenient to push at the time? it's just not town

3) still think her play around lavar was just a straight up pocket attempt. i don't really see any way that interaction was pure. i don't think this will be very convincing to anyone else but it seriously stands out to me and it is something that i can't really get over personally

so uh yea i think i want to go back here

VOTE: Meuh

[fireisredsir]

if cakez adds anyone other than RR i think its a scumclaim tbh

[fireisredsir]

How many times do I have to say that Dunn is playing like his scum meta
I feel like I've said it so many times and yet people keep going "gawsh I have no idea why Cakez is scumreading Dunn"

at least once more, bc im p sure you were already disproven on the omgus point that you had originally and eventually acknowledged that? did you forget about all of that?

[fireisredsir]

the numbers are not remaining consistent but i can't quote strip easily on phone so this is what you get

1) on lavar, i think that reaching a hand out to someone who hasn't found their footing and is getting some suspicion is exactly the kind of thing that scum like to do to pocket someone. you make them feel comfortable and listened to when they're vulnerable, and suddenly theyre less interested in scumreading you. that's like pretty standard

2) on people getting annoyed by you, im actually not at all sure where you got that from. i had lots of other things to talk about so I didn't bring it up but i find 310 p weird, bc that is not the impression i have of the game to that point at all. I just read the first 300 posts again, still no idea what you're talking about. lavar has some suspicion and votes you. gamma votes you but never says why and moves off immediately. datisi expressed some suspicion in 135. gamma later explains and says that he thought you were a good early vote. and then you say that you've gotten "a bunch of shade and mild scumreads" and that you're surprised you've only gotten 2 votes and even that scum are using you as a backup wagon?? i don't know where thats coming from. the only one who i think could vote you but wasn't is datisi. i think scum usually overestimate the significance of suspicion on them and i think you very much did in this case. this whole section of your latest post just feels like a weird tangent to me where im not sure where you're coming from or where you're going. i haven't ever been annoyed with you this game and its v weird to me that you are suggesting that you would be acting in a way to be less annoying to people (??) as scum here. i think you've been p pleasant and generally nice and i don't know what you think you would have done differently

3) on gorilla+marci case... okay, i guess. i don't think that really affects my read of the situation but i don't really think there's much that you can say that would. the one point is that you're saying you were into this solve bc you felt passion for your Marci read, but where did that passion go? why did it never result in you pushing for marci's elimination until end of day?

4) on reading marci... honestly this doesn't really explain anything. you're just giving your perspective on reading marci in general which sounds nice and is a lot of words but isn't really relevant to your alignment in this game? one of my main points was about how you seemed like you were hard scumreading her at start of d2 but then you never really pressured there, continually voted other wagons, etc, all the things i talked about. none of that is really addressed by this

5) on whether your actions make more sense as scum than as town... yes? i just explained why I think that. i don't really like how this seems to be minimizing my reasoning into that you've done odd things. i don't really care if you've done odd things. i think you've done things that have scum motivation. and yes, those do outweigh times where I've felt like i can believe you're having a town thought process, because scum can fake that. action is what matters

6) on your approach to this day, it's hard for me to say exactly what you're doing bc I don't know who your partners are if you're scum. gorilla is free to talk about why he finds your posting today scummy, for me it isn't that significant which is why i didn't talk about it and mostly focused on prior days. i could see your play from today as coming from either town or scum.

7) on your vote on marci, this is easy for you to say, and easy to see in hindsight that maybe this is what you should have done, but its harder to do in the moment. i think that if you're scum here then you made a mistake in the way you handled marci. you probably expected she could survive another day, so didn't pressure there, but when you saw a wagon building you panicked and felt like you had to join it based on your most recent read of her. looking back now, it looks bad and partnered, but thats how scum get caught. they make mistakes. you're arguing here that i shouldn't suspect you bc if you were scum you would have played better and that doesn't really do much for me

[fireisredsir]

but... the reception was mostly about you voting gorilla based off a partner read. i don't get how that would make you less sure of your marci read and less interested in pressuring that instead.

but okay, i agree, going back and forth in walls is prob not super useful and i would like to hear other people's thoughts as well

[fireisredsir]

did the latest posts from cakez change your mind on him?

[fireisredsir]

Sigh.

I’m sorry.
Gorilla, Rhyme, meuh, Fire. Tell me who you want to be on and I’ll go with it.

meuh or fey, i guess. i don't actually think cakez has been towny at all lately so id be fine with him too. kinda don't want dunn anymore, enchant is fine

[fireisredsir]

I think the main thing I wanna get across at the moment is that given the marci scum flip I really think people should be focusing on that and voting for the person who makes the MOST sense with marci, and I still think that's Fey or Dunn.

And yeah surface-level that's obvious as hell, but I still just don't think Cakez is that and it feels like it's getting overlooked because Cakez's current posting is mediocre and its been hard to get another wagon through.
If ya'll REALLY think that out of everyone here Cakez is the most likely person to be scum with marci here then it seems like you've likely got the votes, so make your arguments for that (which a few of you have already done) and do it, but otherwise I really just want everyone to reset and just go back through people's posting around marci and go for who they think fits that best - the Cakez and Enchant wagons in particular just feel like distractions to that to me, and after the first scum flip of the game I want to refocus everyone on that.

i don't think cakez looks unpaired with marci. calling a scum partner scum but not really taking any action to move the game towards their elim is like kinda classic

what do you think of meuh? i think that her progression on marci looks p partnery to me. ik you said you think she's unlikely partners with dunn and dunn is your top scumread but tbh i think that's a p weak reason at this stage of the game to not want to vote someone that you've been scumreading most of the game and i don't really understand it