Mini 2308 | Blood over Utopia | Utopia fell.

[Aureal]

I don't think I can actually post my .gif under bianco's rules because spoiler tags don't actually seem to hide it, per the post preview.

You may see it here if you wish to greeted by a singing pirate.

Use [

spoiler=][

/spoiler] tags; [

spoiler][

/spoiler] tags produce the old-style redaction-like spoiler

like this

.
Here's your gif:

Spoiler:

[Aureal]

HURT: Trading Outpost

Obviously after this we should use Assassination on Deal With The Devil.

[Aureal]

It's been in the original post the whole time.

[Aureal]

HURT: Bureau of Investigations
HURT: Sacrifice

I'm concerned by the yellow warning for wind in the late evening.

[Aureal]

I guess we only get to vote for one project at a time, but I think those two might be a good day one set.

[Aureal]

VOTE: penguin power this is a utopia, penguins have exactly the right amount of power[/vote]

HURT: neighborhood watch to not have day talk early on could be more damaging then later when there a groove.

I also support printing press, it's pretty clear later stuff is gonna cost more than the current budget and if we don't keep up increasing it it may be days before we can pick something really good.

If you mean Trading Outpost to up the budget to 70k, I disagree. I initially felt like it was an obviously good choice but then I realized the budget doesn't carry over so the extra value is lost if it's not used. And there's very few ways to get an exactly 70k daily spend right now, even fewer of which seem any good. If there's something really cool that unlocks later and needs the boost we can go for the upgrade then. Remember, we can't use developments more than once so 70k is the most our regular daily budget will be and something like Sacrifice that gives a temporary boost will be needed in order to get a larger amount.

So possibly we want to wait to use Sacrifice. I was thinking our chances of hitting scum were worst on day one so the benefit was most likely to kick in, but was overlooking that it was separately handled by whoever voted for it rather than a function tacked onto the elimination, so that could be a bit alarming if scum are voting for it.

HURT: Bureau of Investigations

[Aureal]

why would printing press be useful instead of just... unlocking the things?

It would be silly to assume we can unlock everything. So going down a path blind seems equally silly.

There's only three unlock developments. I don't see anything that indicates there will be more unlockables after that. The game making it through three nights seems pretty likely to me. Especially since scum may not have a nightkill. So yes, I think unlocking all three categories seems quite possible. Voting manipulation seems like a waste, though. Having non-standard vote weights is generally considered useless or antitown. So as much fun as it would be to campaign for mayor, I think ignoring those is probably the better way to go.

[Aureal]

Raffle ($10,000) -- 50% chance that a random Citizen gets a fruit.

@Mod: Is the raffle decided publicly?

The lucky receipient of the fruit, if one exists, will be selected at random, and will not be announced publicly; the fruit is delivered privately

Yeah, that's how I expected it to work so it's odd that Roden thought it could confirm people. I don't see any way for it to do that, not with us not even knowing if the fruit went out or not. If we knew for sure fruit was going out, someone could claim it to be confirmed (or catch scum trying to fake-claim receiving it). But it's a notably weaker confirm when scum can take the 50% chance that there was no fruit and claim to have received it.

[Aureal]

Games with mid alignment changes have to be called out in the queue, no?

Yeah, there shouldn't be cult here, the only bastard mechanic noted is possible mod misdirection.

[Aureal]

This feels fiscally irresponsible to me, but I'm not confident enough to argue it further

If this was a Civ game I'd absolutely be trying to max money gain. Having all the unused money go away every phase really changes things, though.

...I'm probably going to feel the urge to spend as much as possible every day because it feels like wasting something to not do so. I must keep in mind the possibility that it's actually bad to spend lots of money, maybe that will help curb that urge.

[Aureal]

why would printing press be useful instead of just... unlocking the things?

It would be silly to assume we can unlock everything. So going down a path blind seems equally silly.

There's only three unlock developments. I don't see anything that indicates there will be more unlockables after that. The game making it through three nights seems pretty likely to me. Especially since scum may not have a nightkill. So yes, I think unlocking all three categories seems quite possible. Voting manipulation seems like a waste, though. Having non-standard vote weights is generally considered useless or antitown. So as much fun as it would be to campaign for mayor, I think ignoring those is probably the better way to go.

I mostly meant using all possible options is likely to be budget gated, not that we can’t unlock a new tier each day.

What? Your position isn't making any sense. You don't think we can unlock everything, except you do? What does the budget have to do with anything?

[Aureal]

What do you mean by the last part? That only the people that vote sacrifice get a say on the target? I dunno how you got there.

By reading the game rules.

Some projects require targets. When one such project is undertaken, Utopians who voted for it are added to a Council PT overnight to decide its targets. If they can't make up their minds, the targets are randomized.

[Aureal]

Mm since we can only do 1 of the projects under "developments"

My preference is for either the Bureau of Investigation or Trading Post, I'm not going to get really fussed over which

And neighborhood watch or election security, maaaybe intelligentia as the other

Thoughts?

Intelligentsia might be best saved for later so we know when ELo is if flipless kills are going to be a thing, which we know is possible with Assassination but can’t be certain for other kills.

- Alianna

I'm inclined to doubt regular eliminations will be flipless. Assassination probably wouldn't specify it's flipless if others were also, and since we only get to use the Autopsy twice we'd have very little information to go off of and little way to do anything about it.

[Aureal]

I feel like town Cakez is perfectly fine advertising that he doesn't have reads yet, from my previous game of experience playing with him.

Not that half the game's players ever really came up with much in the way of reads that game.

...

VOTE: Merlyn

[Aureal]

Can I ask people voting for Trading Post to explain what combinations they want to use which would require the extra budget? I feel like there's just been an assumption we're going to need them.

[Aureal]

Can I ask people voting for Trading Post to explain what combinations they want to use which would require the extra budget? I feel like there's just been an assumption we're going to need them.

since trading outpost is permanent itll help when we unlock more roles i think

See, the 'you think' is why I ask.

If we vote in Trading Post today then Bureau of Investigations tomorrow, we see on Day Three whether we have new investigation projects we want to do that needed the extra funds.

If we vote in Bureau of Investigations today, we see tomorrow whether we have new investigation projects we want to do and whether we need more funds for them, and can do Trading Post if we need the funds.

Either way, it's Day Three before we can apply increased funding to potential projects that come from an upgrade. Doing Trading Post first means we have a little more flexibility on Day Two but only in regards to what we currently see listed, we won't have anything new. So if you want that first, you ought to see some useful ways to spend 70k on Day Two. Whereas doing Bureau of Investigations first means we can just not bother with Trading Post at all if nothing new and cool and expensive pops up.

[Aureal]

Can I ask people voting for Trading Post to explain what combinations they want to use which would require the extra budget? I feel like there's just been an assumption we're going to need them.

we could do
census/a development
assassination/autopsy
neighborhood watch/census

Yay, someone actually responded like I asked.

Census doesn't seem like a big priority at first, we probably want to use it mid-game. Like when there's exactly 8 people left, to keep the pools small as possible, would be perfect but we can't count on numbers working out exactly like that.
I think we actually want to use Autopsy the day after we use Assassination? I doubt we're allowed to target the same person with both- they won't be a dead person yet while people are deciding who to target!
Neighborhood Watch I feel like is most useful late game when Census would be unavailable- if it gets to ELO in particular (to make it hard for scum to coordinate quickhammers if nothing else). But I never roll scum so I might not have a great sense of how useful daytalk is for them, other opinions welcome.

[Aureal]

You were in the only scum game I've had since 2006. Which was multiball. Barely even counts.

[Aureal]

I'm well aware that some people consider it vital. I don't share that experience at this point, so I'm curious whether that idea is widespread here.

[Aureal]

OK so some basic questions.

1) Is this a bastard game? Because Inquiry makes it sound like the moderator can lie to us.

In that aspect, yes, but possible mod lies should be the only bastard element.

2) Do players not flip after being eliminated? (Looking at Autopsy)

Only if an ability to hide the flip is used.

3) With Census, does it still work if, for example, 3/5 of them are Scum? If only 1 of them are Scum then it doesn't work?

It says exactly 2, I'd take it at its word.

4) So with Sacrifice you can just select someone and kill but confirm them as Town, or basically get a guilty on them if they don't die? Is this a Night action or a Day action?

Projects are voted for during the day, and whoever voted for it will form a council to decide the target at night.

5) I don't understand the point of Raffle.

Yeah... uh... It's something to do if we somehow don't have anything else available, I guess?

7) "No player has any non-factional special ability" means we're all Vanilla?

Yeah, the abilities on the board are what we have to solve the game. Scum have some factional ability, which may or may not be a nightkill.

[Aureal]

we're all having fun aren't we.

how dare you try to tell people what our feelings are.

[Aureal]

FL is gonna sweet talk me into not suspecting him and that’s just going to make me suspect him more and then he’s going to flip the read and try to pin me on something minute that I won’t exactly have an answer for but will make us tunnel each other for a bit. Then I’ll think he’s town for it but keep a pocket scumread on him so he can’t see me keeping tabs on him till it’s too late. But he’ll expect me to do that because town him would expect me to do that and I’ll go back to tunneling because my gut was right. Then we will eventually land on town reading each other until one of us tries to vigi the other or one of us gets nked.

End scene.

...you just described my previous experience with FL with like 95% accuracy.

[Aureal]

How do people feel about using Inquiry as the second project today?

[Aureal]

The setup could be replete with lies!

... I'm not sure how we would tell exactly what they are without further information, but it could be useful to know that it's not entirely trustworthy. What if the info we have on financing for the scum is a lie? Could be all kinds of weird misdirection. If it's clean then we use it again later and get a positive result, we'll know something during the game was a lie, letting us narrow down what it could be.

By contrast, what sort of lies could we expect to see during the game? Are we going to be told someone is dead but they're not? Given the wrong role for them? I think having a baseline so we know it's not some random crap in the setup could be helpful. If we feel like trying to figure out anything about mod lies, anyway.

[Aureal]

"Is it possible your game has any mechanically bastard roles or mechanics?
It is possible that there be mod misdirection; however, there are no hidden modnotes and I will never lie unless a game effect instructs me to"

i think it's heavily implied here that the 'lies' involved are from mechanics and abilities - which makes total sense - and furthermore i think it's very likely these 'game effects' are whatever abilities mafia has access to.

i think the overwhelmingly likely result will be that there is no mod lie & the action is wasted. honestly even if i discovered there *was* a mod lie at this point i'm not really sure what i'd do with that

i think finding out how many scum exist is likely to be more useful

How likely do you think it is that the number is going to be something other than 3?

- Alianna

If it's as mountainous as people are fearing, 2 is even still possible. See that Scarfolk Council game you were in for example.

[Aureal]

"Is it possible your game has any mechanically bastard roles or mechanics?
It is possible that there be mod misdirection; however, there are no hidden modnotes and I will never lie unless a game effect instructs me to"

i think it's heavily implied here that the 'lies' involved are from mechanics and abilities - which makes total sense - and furthermore i think it's very likely these 'game effects' are whatever abilities mafia has access to.

i think the overwhelmingly likely result will be that there is no mod lie & the action is wasted. honestly even if i discovered there *was* a mod lie at this point i'm not really sure what i'd do with that

i think finding out how many scum exist is likely to be more useful

How likely do you think it is that the number is going to be something other than 3?

- Alianna

If it's as mountainous as people are fearing, 2 is even still possible. See that Scarfolk Council game you were in for example.

We're allowed to use Census if "at most one Insurgent is dead," so that would be some evil mod misdirection. I won't say it's impossible though.

- Alianna

You're making way too much sense on this page.

[Aureal]

roden why is aureal town

I like the way she's dissecting the game mechanics and trying to optimize what we should fund and how we should do it. That on it's own is obviously not out of anyone's scum range, but I've noticed that the way she's been poking at people's understands of the mech and motivations for their votes is being done in a way to try to expose people who could be informed. I especially liked her interactions with RC earlier for that.

looking back on her iso, i don't see this as obvious. in fact, i think it's probably not happening at all?

i think you saying this is probably +town for you even if i'm right though. well, especially if i'm right actually

Yeah, I'm also a little confused to find out that I've been doing this.

Why do you think saying it is +town?

[Aureal]

Yeah, I'm also a little confused to find out that I've been doing this.

Why do you think saying it is +town?

i think it shows roden is reading into things on a deeper level, even to the point drawing connections that aren't there, and then made no effort to express he was doing this until i asked him about it. i think town is more likely to behave that way - it feels uninformed and not that survival motivated

When you put it like that, I'm inclined to agree. Maybe I'm getting a little too paranoid about fake townreads, lol.

[Aureal]

This is a great way to kill off two sus people in a day, for 1/3 the price of Assassination. It just takes longer.

This seems like a good way to use Marriage except I have doubts about how well we'd be able to implement it since it's voted in by its voters. How likely is it that there's going to be two consensus most sus people to use it on to whom we can leash the committee?

Not today, but a vig shot is pretty strong. As I brought up earlier, this would be a good way to resolve a "failed" Sacrifice. That last part also suggests that other actions aren't guaranteed to go through as planned. The fact that it's so expensive compared to other killing methods makes me think there's a significant risk of our actions getting sabotaged.

If are projects are this underwhelming and also have significant risk of not even working...

This game is kind of depressing.

[Aureal]

none of my reads are that strong so far - honestly, i'm a little worried about it, it feels like the gamestate isn't that advanced and we're halfway to deadline. i was hoping we'd be able to, uh, walk and chew gum when it comes to the mechanical stuff, but maybe we need to cut down on it and focus on the mafia side of things

Yeah, I agree with this. This setup triggers my mech-based instincts to want to try to break it, but motivation sank and now I still barely even have any reads.

Hmmmm. What do you suppose is the meaning of the fact that there was a bunch of talk about the Merlyn wagon but nobody ever asked me why I voted her? Was it that obvious to everyone?

[Aureal]

That wasn't what I asked, but I guess it answers the last question.

[Aureal]

none of my reads are that strong so far - honestly, i'm a little worried about it, it feels like the gamestate isn't that advanced and we're halfway to deadline. i was hoping we'd be able to, uh, walk and chew gum when it comes to the mechanical stuff, but maybe we need to cut down on it and focus on the mafia side of things

Yeah, I agree with this. This setup triggers my mech-based instincts to want to try to break it, but motivation sank and now I still barely even have any reads.

Hmmmm. What do you suppose is the meaning of the fact that there was a bunch of talk about the Merlyn wagon but nobody ever asked me why I voted her? Was it that obvious to everyone?

I figured you were sheeping me bc I remember I asked merlyn a question around the same time

Why is your motivation so low? What would get you more engaged

Good question. I'd say a decent bit out of game factors, and this game just feeling a bit of a chore to get into. Like, if I were solely in charge of deciding what to do, I'd make my own mind up. But I'm not much of a leader and it sorta feels like sometimes when I'm trying to get input to get brainstorming on something, it falls flat. So that kinda feels discouraging, when I can't do something myself but efforts to engage the group don't accomplish much.

[Aureal]

marci, roden
merlyn
csf, snivy
cakez, flavor leaf, random nurse
devil, rcenigma
aureal, penguinpower

i think i'm here right now. i don't really get common townreads on RCE. none of my reads are that strong so far - honestly, i'm a little worried about it, it feels like the gamestate isn't that advanced and we're halfway to deadline. i was hoping we'd be able to, uh, walk and chew gum when it comes to the mechanical stuff, but maybe we need to cut down on it and focus on the mafia side of things

Listen, I am letting Alianna deal with the mech stuff, so we can tussle and throw hands on the mafia side of things if you want.

Especially since we have some clear differences in our reads.

Snivy that high? RC and Aureal that low?

-Drew

snivy is... really not that high. he is one tier above random nurse. i get slight town vibes from his attitude, but nothing specific

rce feels off to me and i don't understand townreads there. although i wouldn't call flavour leaf towny - why his vote is on flavour leaf is a good question? for someone who has so many posts, i don't think he's doing much to advance the game honestly.

why shouldn't i have aureal that low? originally, i had aureal as a bit towny for her insistence on pushing mechanically good ideas. you didn't agree with them, so i'm not sure why you think i should be townreading her. there's not really a case for me to make here, i just feel very uneasy with her posts and extensive mechanical focus she had for the entire game to the point she had like one blank vote in terms of reads content despite being around quite a bit. something about her interaction with me and roden felt off to me, too. it's mostly a gut thing but if i have to put it into words, i guess it's responding to my post and not roden's (she responded to a post before that that came after roden's chronologically, so this wasn't a convenience thing) to say she wasn't doing what roden thought? and then like, poking at me for the first time after roden said he would townread her poking at people? i don't think it's especially unreasonable to ask me about that, but i don't think it's an especially baffling read to make either, so asking about that as your first question of the game does feel ??? to me

You think it's suspicious to respond non-sequentially? Man, I knew there had to be someone out there that I was paranoid of feeling that way when I hold back posts because I'm not keeping up well and don't want to seem like I'm ignoring things.

I'm posting from mobile while doing other things a lot and might get a little scattershot in responses at times. Like right now, there was some other post in here I saw and want to respond to and didn't immediately find so it's probably before this one a ways.

I saw Roden's post about me but didn't immediately feel moved enough to comment on it until you did as well because you both validated my feeling that it was kind of an odd take, and came to a different conclusion about him based on it. So I asked, and realized I liked your reasoning better than my own. I've seen a good few fake townreads on me in recent games, and you made me realize it didn't really resemble those, even though it seemed inaccurate in the reasoning.

[Aureal]

none of my reads are that strong so far - honestly, i'm a little worried about it, it feels like the gamestate isn't that advanced and we're halfway to deadline. i was hoping we'd be able to, uh, walk and chew gum when it comes to the mechanical stuff, but maybe we need to cut down on it and focus on the mafia side of things

Yeah, I agree with this. This setup triggers my mech-based instincts to want to try to break it, but motivation sank and now I still barely even have any reads.

Hmmmm. What do you suppose is the meaning of the fact that there was a bunch of talk about the Merlyn wagon but nobody ever asked me why I voted her? Was it that obvious to everyone?

did you see this setup as like, especially breakable? i mean, there's certainly engagement to be had over which options will be better for town and that's totally fine, but even in the best case scenario, are any of these options really that good?

i can't speak for anyone else, but i thought it'd be more interesting to wait and see if you talked about merlyn, or anyone else, without prompting

Oh, it was the next post, lol.

I guess breakable might not have been the best description. It's a bianco design, I'm not mech-headed enough to think I can literally break it. But I'm a micromanager who wants to optimize things to an obnoxious extent. Like today I'm kicking myself because I missed a Paypal offer to get $5 back if I'd just used it for one more $50 transaction by yesterday. Surely I could have found something else I could've paid with PayPal for in the last couple of weeks and I would have gotten free money.

And we're on the same page regarding talking about Merlyn, lol. I was kind of waiting to see if anyone asked about it!

Seeing as nobody did, I started theorizing about what that might imply. Then I went back and looked at the actual wagon composition and decided I didn't really like my theory after all.

[Aureal]

My vote on flavor is just because I am going to prioritize sorting him before anyone else in this player list, no offense to anyone else. But for my game and how I’m going to view the game on a given day is going to be more tied to what alignment I think FL is moreso than the rest of the lobby.

That said he hasn’t done anything yet so mounting a wagon without his input doesn’t get me anywhere. So I haven’t pressed it too hard. If my vote wasn’t here it would be on devil for the record.

What do you expect to do to be able to sort FL? And how is a vote without his presence going to help with that?

[Aureal]

i've played with you before, but it was a long time ago now - it's true i don't have recent experience with you and i guess i'll check your games from 2022?

i wouldn't expect you or most people to do things with the sole intention of 'advancing the gamestate' but usually that just happens naturally by like, pushing people or asking questions when you're suspicious etc. like, the intention reading part of your post - i think you did that with cakez, and maybe a bit with drew, but it doesn't feel like a big focus for you so far. i understand if you're town you probably have been thinking things and just not posting about them that much, and i don't really intend to vote you out d1 unless we get in a deadline rush and it's you or someone i townread

re: fl, i don't mind that you prioritise sorting him but i don't really see how your vote goes about doing that? since i don't think fl has really entered the game yet and i don't think fl is going to like feel pressured by the vote or whatever. it's not the biggest deal because townies do things i don't understand frequently, but it does just feel a bit strange that you didn't seem to have anything else going on at the time i guess

Okay, well, uh, thanks for reinforcing my townread on you by thinking the same sort of things as me again???

Sigh

[Aureal]

It not FL only, but I know if FL is scum or *I think* FL is scum then he has the ability to pull me into a rabbit hole that may be detrimental to town. Whether that be a tunnel or gets me to scum side.

And if he’s town then it makes it infinitely easier to make town cohesive. I know he has the ability to do so and I am fairly err…tenacious when I feel the solve is correct.

OK now I'm kinda weirded out that you described FL in a way that very accurately matched my experience before and then say this, which doesn't match at all.

[Aureal]

UNVOTE:
I don't feel good about this vote anymore

I did some ISOing to verify what you were saying and unfortunately for me and my lack of scumreads this game your claims about talking about votes every game early day one check out - it's more specific meta then just the lackadaisical Penguin meta I was thinking of

So now I literally have like nothing I feel good about pushing
Someone make a scummy post

Okay, thanks, I guess.

I've been kinda sus of Penguin since he's feeling like my previous experience with him, but was hoping someone would have input on his meta like this because I can believe what he said. Some of us just might not function that well early on.

Sooooo... yeah. I'm not really getting scumreads, though at least I've gotten some townreads so I'm doing better than a couple days ago. I mostly voted Merlyn as a joke because of dividing conner and I thought she at least would get that. I'm really not sure how to read her yet but I haven't been coming up with any more solid reason to vote elsewhere either. I guess I could VOTE: camelCasedSnivy for the sake of moving my vote.

[Aureal]

none of my reads are that strong so far - honestly, i'm a little worried about it, it feels like the gamestate isn't that advanced and we're halfway to deadline. i was hoping we'd be able to, uh, walk and chew gum when it comes to the mechanical stuff, but maybe we need to cut down on it and focus on the mafia side of things

Yeah, I agree with this. This setup triggers my mech-based instincts to want to try to break it, but motivation sank and now I still barely even have any reads.

Hmmmm. What do you suppose is the meaning of the fact that there was a bunch of talk about the Merlyn wagon but nobody ever asked me why I voted her? Was it that obvious to everyone?

I figured you were sheeping me bc I remember I asked merlyn a question around the same time

Why is your motivation so low? What would get you more engaged

Good question. I'd say a decent bit out of game factors, and this game just feeling a bit of a chore to get into. Like, if I were solely in charge of deciding what to do, I'd make my own mind up. But I'm not much of a leader and it sorta feels like sometimes when I'm trying to get input to get brainstorming on something, it falls flat. So that kinda feels discouraging, when I can't do something myself but efforts to engage the group don't accomplish much.

I mean, I'm down to brainstorm. The thing you're voting for is winning atm, do you still want that or no? If so what's the second thing you think we should get?

Mmm, I think things are going well on the votes, Intelligentia is definitely something we want to use, this is a fine place for it, and that's our second project as votes stand. Election security might be useful but probably moreso later, appointed jury might be nice to give to towncore but again, probably better later so we have a better idea who that is. Raffle is fine anytime, perhaps slightly better earlier? Still on the fence about inquiry being useful at all. Neighborhood watch feels better later on unless we hit scum early. Those are what I'd consider for a second project today.

[Aureal]

Yeah it worked out so well the last time you went after Cakez.

Drew being willing to sheep this after pushing back firmly on marci's Cakez push is giving me weird vibes. What changed?

[Aureal]

So Marci feeling phony doesn't bother you anymore? I've literally been re-reading those pages right now so the difference is kinda sticking out.

[Aureal]

You came around on Marci because... She loves cats?

This can't be as simple as Aureal protecting their buddy right?

-Drew

Aureal noticed the Cakez wagon has somehow become the big thing that is happening and thinks it'd be a good idea to know why.

Looking into a few other voters...

Marci, what's with all the pushing Cakez without voting him for so long? Like really what's with 285 in particular when you weren't voting anyone at all despite suspecting Cakez?

CSF, what prompted your Cakez vote?

[Aureal]

You too Merlyn. Why Cakez wagon? How are you pressing Snivy on him wanting a vote moved to Penguin or Cakez in 628, thinking it's suspicious when, as far as I can tell those two are also

your

scumreads at the time?

[Aureal]

This can't be as simple as Aureal protecting their buddy right?

-Drew

Could be, not enough to really know for me yet.
It’s odd they brought the last time I went after Cakez, because in that scenario, Cakez and I were both town, it was the END of a game, and I came after Cakez not Cakez after me, so it’s pretty different.

Maybe he's feeling more desire to sort you earlier this time rather than risk letting you spin and twist until everyone falls down. I know I'm not intending on letting you have as much leeway as last time.

[Aureal]

This can't be as simple as Aureal protecting their buddy right?

-Drew

Could be, not enough to really know for me yet.
It’s odd they brought the last time I went after Cakez, because in that scenario, Cakez and I were both town, it was the END of a game, and I came after Cakez not Cakez after me, so it’s pretty different.

Maybe he's feeling more desire to sort you earlier this time rather than risk letting you spin and twist until everyone falls down. I know I'm not intending on letting you have as much leeway as last time.

Interesting you say this.

Because Cakez town read me from Day 1 that game all the way to the end.

So I’m fine with the second part, but the wording of the first is interesting to me

Okay, so I went and checked his ISO and that's not quite accurate. He townread you for day one because you put in a lot of effort doing a big catch-up after replacing in. After that he wavered for a while and fought a little with you when you decided he was scum. Then eventually settled back on you being town for effort because you didn't need to do expend as much if scum given the gamestate of mass confusion.

By 'interesting' I assume you mean those are obviously my feelings?

[Aureal]

I'm not entirely sure (part of the reason I'm asking for explanations from the voters) but loosely leaning town. I haven't seen anything to scumread and have felt lost for scumreads like he has so I was kind of taken aback by this wagon being a thing. It's annoyingly reminiscent of our prior game which I've referenced.

FL might have something of a point in that I hadn't considered Cakez's read on him as a difference between the games; but I think it was reasonable for Cakez to TR him for his big wall posting entrance in dividing conner and not TR him for his not so big entrance here, so getting to a scumread here doesn't seem particularly weird to me. They've got plenty more history between them that could maybe explain things, but I'm not privy to it.

[Aureal]

If Cakez is scum and you're town, why would he want that?

[Aureal]

VOTE: marcistar who hasn't answered me either

[Aureal]

Penguin, join the Marci wagon, it's fun. We have... Um... Popsicles?

[Aureal]

You're not any more a wagon than you were at the page top.

[Aureal]

i think marci hasn't really been scummy, and there have been things i found town indicative. i'm not really interested in pressuring there to get a better read, because i think marci tends to react really badly to pressure and it makes the game messier and isn't necessarily actually helpful (sorry marci)

she's a hard slot to read because she tends to play in a more actively pro-town way as scum but reading her that way just means if she tries to like play to her wincon and stuff she gets punished for it which feels bad. i think the best approach is to read her mostly normally but keep in mind she can and often does stuff as town which most people find scummy. it's a hard balance to strike because it's not like the meta is super reliable at all but i don't think reading her normally is that likely to work either

it's probably worth noting that roden said earlier he townreads marci for slaying, which means scum marci is more likely to go out of her way to slay in this game?

I cannot wrap my head around what this is trying to say about how to read marci. Don't pressure her. Read her 'normally' (whatever that is) but

don't

read her 'normally'. What do we do? This explanation makes me feel like we're just not supposed to try.

[Aureal]

guys we have less than 2 days for deadline

guys we have less than 2 days for deadline

So?

I dont wanna no lim by accident but we still need to find a good vote

VOTE: Cakez

meh

weird

im not in a rush to vote

UNVOTE:

??????

Flavor Leaf gets to do head-spinning 180s. I dunno about you.

[Aureal]

because i didnt know it was plurality aureal

I guess a lot of people have overlooked that this game, huh.

[Aureal]

It's an easy thing to forget. I guess probably more likely to come from town.

[Aureal]

Oh I forgot to respond to this.

i think marci hasn't really been scummy, and there have been things i found town indicative. i'm not really interested in pressuring there to get a better read, because i think marci tends to react really badly to pressure and it makes the game messier and isn't necessarily actually helpful (sorry marci)

she's a hard slot to read because she tends to play in a more actively pro-town way as scum but reading her that way just means if she tries to like play to her wincon and stuff she gets punished for it which feels bad. i think the best approach is to read her mostly normally but keep in mind she can and often does stuff as town which most people find scummy. it's a hard balance to strike because it's not like the meta is super reliable at all but i don't think reading her normally is that likely to work either

it's probably worth noting that roden said earlier he townreads marci for slaying, which means scum marci is more likely to go out of her way to slay in this game?

I cannot wrap my head around what this is trying to say about how to read marci. Don't pressure her. Read her 'normally' (whatever that is) but

don't

read her 'normally'. What do we do? This explanation makes me feel like we're just not supposed to try.

The defense kind of contradicts themselves saying they act townie as scum.

I think it’s a fair assessment, and more of a buddy defense in the sense they are familiar with Marci and wanted to kind of wait and see.

That’s how I am with RCE, tbh, or I’d have full on went for the 1v1, but i don’t really mind shading there for now.

Yeah I noticed the contradictions. The whole paragraph just confuses me. If she plays pro-town as scum what does playing to her win condition mean other than being anti-town?

I agree with your conclusion though, that meow is someone familiar with Marci wanting to wait rather than a buddy trying to protect her. I just wish she could give better insight in regard to what to do rather than what not to do. Like, in response to my post meow says she doesn't want to vote Marci unless she thinks Marci is scum and wants her dead. But how do we get to that read?

[Aureal]

I don't feel confident that Snivy is scum, but I would like a Marchi lim even less. I'm concerned to move my vote bc it will leave the Marci wagon in the lead and I like don't trust the wagon on Marci at all. The games most divisive player, Aureal as a pressure vote (I assume, since the reasoning was 'you didn't answer my question', and a player that's about to get replaced for inactivity who joined when asked by Aureal. Like, that's a terrible wagon.

Weird take.

Who do you think I should be voting if you think it's just a pressure vote?

Also "most divisive"?

[Aureal]

Merlyn, what exactly needs clarification? I'm not sure why you seem to think I can't find marci's hypocritical action and subsequent failure to give any explanations for her actions when questioned by both me and Flavor Leaf to be suspicious enough to be my top suspect. Calling it a pressure vote implies it's not very serious and I'd rather vote elsewhere. And I'm not sure why you'd think that.

[Aureal]

Merlyn, what exactly needs clarification? I'm not sure why you seem to think I can't find marci's hypocritical action and subsequent failure to give any explanations for her actions when questioned by both me and Flavor Leaf to be suspicious enough to be my top suspect. Calling it a pressure vote implies it's not very serious and I'd rather vote elsewhere. And I'm not sure why you'd think that.

I could absolutely think that you could find Marci suspicious for that if you had mentioned it at any point. You however said this about about Marci when voting:

VOTE: marcistar who hasn't answered me either

Penguin, join the Marci wagon, it's fun. We have... Um... Popsicles?

I must be missing the part where you said where you sussed for being hypocritical and not giving any explanations, can you point me to the posts?

I asked her about it in 806. Because that's clearly kinda suspicious. Some of you I'm townreading and wanted to evaluate your reasoning to see if it swayed me on Cakez. That was not.

[Aureal]

I'm confused by this argument. Snivy didn't do anything to change the elimination with the vote. It was Marci and continued to be Marci until that unvote from Infinity just now. If Snivy wanted to avoid becoming the top elimination candidate he should've voted Marci, not Penguin.

[Aureal]

Who tries to look town?

[Aureal]

@meow i mean it doesn't look like you're getting eliminated today, and i would like to focus on slots that are more likely to get eliminated. the gist of it is that your pushes on csf and penguin felt awkward and a bit nitpicky like you didn't know what to do with your vote.

Why can't a townie be awkward and not know what to do with their vote?

[Aureal]

It'd be a little odd for Penguin to vote her and then dip with her as the lead wagon though, wouldn't it?

[Aureal]

fwiw i am a bit concerned that the deal with sacrifice is that scum can prevent whoever it is from dying, and if they do they get a free elimination the next day which i think works better for them

shrug

That would seem to indicate a mod lie.

This setup will feel reeeeeeeally bad if scum get roleblocks like that when town already seems to not have a lot of power.

[Aureal]

Man, that 24 hours where I felt like I understood Flavor Leaf sure was nice.

I think it's shady as fuck that I say "ok let's do resolve this and do it all today" and then see you get cold feet and then pre-flip six different slots

If I'm scum I don't need to do shit here if you Infinity and Marci are town because you're already planning to flip the three of you by Day 3. Scum!me literally just sits here and does nothing and my hands are clean. I gain literally nothing as scum by inserting myself into this cluster fuck and putting forward a plan to get more info today instead of waiting until Day 3.

No.

We SPECIFICALLY don’t do it all today.

That’s like the whole thing.

And if you are scum with Marci, this is absolutely incorrect that you get nothing.

I gain absolutely nothing from playing like chaotic toxic shit and isn’t stopping you from voting this way

Didn't you think Roden was TMIing Marci as town with his response though?

I feel like things are moving too fast and communication is suffering as a result.

[Aureal]

VOTE: Infinity 324

Not sure why I didn't get around to that yesterday, guess the whole explosion put that out of mind for a bit.

[Aureal]

Aureal is just nothing for me. Maybe she should just be null, cause mostly just saying mech stuff is usually a playstyle thing. We didn't like her vote on us (not much progression there) though we are biased lol.

I've been contemplating moving my vote there since meow's 1040 helped me get a clearer picture of what she was trying to say about marci. It would've meant lining Snivy up as the flip instead if I'd moved right away though, and I was still engaging with Merlyn on the subject and mulling it over for a bit. I appreciate the engagement from you, but it hasn't really made me townread you though.

[Aureal]

Can I, uh, move to a different town?

HURT: Guildhall

[Aureal]

Recount will be pretty useful later in the game

Will it? If it told us how many were on wagon, maybe. Unless it's an unusually small wagon though, I would just tend to assume the answer is pretty much always going to be "yes there was insurgents on the elimination."

I suppose if we're organized enough we could have like, only two people vote for the elimination and use it to confirm them or be certain that at least one is scum.

[Aureal]

Oh, I’m down to get tortured

ayo

I'm starting to think bianco set this game up just to collect awkward quotes like this.

[Aureal]

Enchant was Roden slot? Okay, i can believe RCEnigma is the only scum in there, not fully, I do see a world where Meow could be scum here, but I’m not too interested in it right now.

I agree with this.

there are potential secret half votes in play, i think, so we have to be careful.

Oh, if we think there's secret vote manipulation we definitely need to be careful. If we operate under the theory that they use the same action list, they could've done jury and mayor to have 1.5 secret votes here. Or cut someone's vote in half. So I don't think it's a good idea just having one person vote the elimination in order to use Recount.

[Aureal]

Enchant was Roden slot? Okay, i can believe RCEnigma is the only scum in there, not fully, I do see a world where Meow could be scum here, but I’m not too interested in it right now.

Enchant was Random Nurse though. Hu Tao was Roden.

[Aureal]

idk i lowkey think 25% is pretty high odds of it flopping lol

My take is this- we torture, and if the result comes up red we use sac on them. That way 75% kill a scums, 25% get more money

I don't need to explain why this is bad proposal.

It's just flat out wrong, to start. That's not what sacrifice does.

[Aureal]

i think 3 is the most likely answer, but the mod makes a point of making it ambiguous whether or not the mafia actually have a factional kill which i think implies it's more likely they *don't* have one

i think it could pretty easily be 4 as a result of that

it at least seems more likely that this is the case than the mod lied about projects funding the mafia

I don’t necessarily love the way that Meow talks looking back on Day 1.

This is an example of Meowmeow seeming kind of TMI imo.

There’s a lot of posts Meow makes where it looks like they’re wrangling the gamestate how they wanted with by using their reads, in a way that looks very townie early in the game, but reading their ISO back, it looks kind of like they’re trying to keep the game going the way they want it.

Does anyone have experience with ScumMeow? Are they normally decently town read as scum?

I don't have a problem with this, I was having the same suspicions. Was not at all surprised that there was no kill and four Mafia- an irregular (if even existent) night kill would likely be balanced by having a larger scum faction. It's sort of nightless.

And I don't think anyone is going to know if they have experience with meow, she's an alt and I don't recall any mention of whose. Probably not anyone I'm familiar with.

Merlyn is pinging me a bit too, but they’d be scum accepting a torture on me voting to get ahead of it if they are scum.

I’ve had Merlyn on my scum team, and against me as scum, and I think I have a good handle on what scum them would be now, and they’re definitely in their scum range here, so they’re like the sun to my solve if I’m wrong on one of the other four.

I'm really not clear why you think they'd want to avoid you specifically being targeted. I think the primary concern would be to avoid it being used on scum because they're definitely confessing and we can't really ignore it if it happens, even if it could be a false confession.

[Aureal]

Aureal why did you vote Infinity yesterday?

Aureal is just nothing for me. Maybe she should just be null, cause mostly just saying mech stuff is usually a playstyle thing. We didn't like her vote on us (not much progression there) though we are biased lol.

I've been contemplating moving my vote there since meow's 1040 helped me get a clearer picture of what she was trying to say about marci. It would've meant lining Snivy up as the flip instead if I'd moved right away though, and I was still engaging with Merlyn on the subject and mulling it over for a bit. I appreciate the engagement from you, but it hasn't really made me townread you though.

Basically Penguin was nullscum to me because he was playing the same as my previous experience with him, where he was scum. I haven't had very strong scumreads this game, really only marci was a fairly strong read, but then meow's argument about her playing like limbait as town started making sense to me so I wavered on that. And the wagon moved off her anyway. The FL/Infinity contretemps made me doubt the slot even more- I asked about a few things Infinity was saying that just didn't feel right to me.

[Aureal]

I also feel like Random Nurse would have done a little more as scum, even with their limited activity, but I’m not confident on that ons.

Enchant is my lowest town read though

I am not at all confident about Random Nurse's play. Just played a game where he repped in and then out and did basically nothing but go "huh, I'm lost" in the meanwhile and the slot was scum. Enchant's entrance is encouraging though, my townlean is based on that.

[Aureal]

i understand what you're saying here in broad strokes, but how much experience do you have with fl? like, i think this read is more believable if you have seen a strong pattern of him coming in like this as town and not as scum, but like replacing in and being initially distant definitely seems to me like something town fl is incredibly capable of doing?

i feel like this is more indicative on townFL, but end of the day, kinda NAI. i generally wait until something grabs me

i mean i've seen scum fl do this before. that's not really the problem, i think you should get tortured and i will sort you that way. i am more concerned with like why this line of thought is convincing drew i guess

I'm still townreading both of you, so I'm not going to support FL being the target here. I think it's best used on a scummier slot. (Not that I don't have any flavor-related concerns about it. But I know nobody is going to care about that because mechanics.)

I've been in agreement with too many things that meow has said to not townread her. And, oddly enough, same with Leaf. Plus I'm inclined to believe what he said about not getting angry as scum, that's too easy for someone to disprove especially in a game where there's people who are pretty familiar with him.

[Aureal]

I'm still townreading both of you, so I'm not going to support FL being the target here. I think it's best used on a scummier slot. (Not that I don't have any flavor-related concerns about it. But I know nobody is going to care about that because mechanics.)

Who?

Who are the scummier slots? RCE and marci for sure... uh...

ugh who the hell else is in this game...

Cakez I guess? Haven't had that much of a read on him, he feels sorta lost like I have been, like we both were in the other game we played so I've kinda been townleaning there, but not really strongly. A few things have felt off.

*checks playerlist* Damn, basically everyone else has been a townread too. Merlyn I suppose, my read on her has been very up and down and for rather pie-in-the-sky reasons. Snivy and Enchant are weaker townreads.

[Aureal]

So yeah, if you're town and you're reading FL town too, I don't know how you're going to argue that it's not still good for gamestate to know for sure. In my eyes anyone who starts to argue against it is someone to watch closely.

I wouldn't have been advocating for using Sacrifice on FL here either. Because I'm townreading him. That whole discussion was not something I ever agreed with so there's nothing for him to 'wiggle out of' as far as I'm concerned. Setting up chains of flips based on having a wrong read isn't a healthy state for town.

What I want to know here is: who is actually scumreading FL? I think that's the important factor here. Please raise your hand if you support this because

you

actually don't trust Flavor Leaf rather than because of some perceived sentiment that other people don't so may as well go along with it because we were gonna use sacrifice anyway or something.

[Aureal]

What are your pie in the sky reasons for sr'ing me, Aureal? I kind of have my own guess (meta related) but I might be off base

Well, first you agreed with me when I commented on the weather thing from the first post flavor. I... Well that was more of a moment of "ha ha I'll look so insightful if this actually DOES mean something!!" than actually thinking it would mean something. You seemed fairly serious in your agreement though, which made me feel rather weird about your reaction. In Scarfolk I made a read for a reason that I didn't actually have a lot of confidence in because I wanted to cover for a PR read and scum picked it up to amplify it, so that kinda gave me some of the same vibes.

Eventually I started liking your takes more and I can't quite remember anything specific about why, but I was starting to get tired of my vote on you. I had thought about your theory about how scum might get funds determined by what action we take, and decided it was likely a take from town because scum wouldn't TMI giving us ideas like that if it does actually work that way. I didn't even remember it came from you, I had to go back and look for who had said it and it turned out it was you (that was where I started bringing up more reads because I was reading back and forming them a little more).

Now I'm second-guessing that you wouldn't TMI that, because the new stuff we got is really actually giving me doubts about what's going on here. Torture is so obviously the 'right' thing to do here, mechanics-wise. Having to add 'mechanics-wise' to that sentence should give you pause. I'm feeling like it's a lot more likely the setup does operate by funding insurgents based on which action we take and that is clearly a prime choice. We may be operating on Undertale principles here. The game we see makes us want to do what the rules make us think is optimal, but actually we're supposed to be applying real-world morality.

[Aureal]

Man, that 24 hours where I felt like I understood Flavor Leaf sure was nice.

I think it's shady as fuck that I say "ok let's do resolve this and do it all today" and then see you get cold feet and then pre-flip six different slots

If I'm scum I don't need to do shit here if you Infinity and Marci are town because you're already planning to flip the three of you by Day 3. Scum!me literally just sits here and does nothing and my hands are clean. I gain literally nothing as scum by inserting myself into this cluster fuck and putting forward a plan to get more info today instead of waiting until Day 3.

No.

We SPECIFICALLY don’t do it all today.

That’s like the whole thing.

And if you are scum with Marci, this is absolutely incorrect that you get nothing.

I gain absolutely nothing from playing like chaotic toxic shit and isn’t stopping you from voting this way

Didn't you think Roden was TMIing Marci as town with his response though?

I feel like things are moving too fast and communication is suffering as a result.

I'm still townreading both of you, so I'm not going to support FL being the target here. I think it's best used on a scummier slot. (Not that I don't have any flavor-related concerns about it. But I know nobody is going to care about that because mechanics.)

Who?

Who are the scummier slots? RCE and marci for sure... uh...

ugh who the hell else is in this game...

Cakez I guess? Haven't had that much of a read on him, he feels sorta lost like I have been, like we both were in the other game we played so I've kinda been townleaning there, but not really strongly. A few things have felt off.

*checks playerlist* Damn, basically everyone else has been a townread too. Merlyn I suppose, my read on her has been very up and down and for rather pie-in-the-sky reasons. Snivy and Enchant are weaker townreads.

There isn’t a lot from quote to quote about your view on Marci so I don’t get how you go from the thought “X slot could just be townspewing Y slot” to “Y slot is just one of the scummier slots”

Also the lack of follow up on roden makes it seem like a throwaway take but feels like that’s because it just didn’t gain traction.

Huh? I haven't said anything about anyone being townspewed, that was FL's reasoning which I was echoing back to him because he seemed to have gotten too in the moment to remember it and chaos was ensuing. They got it sorted right around then, so what am I supposed to follow up on?

[Aureal]

speaking of aureal

@aureal; how did you get to townreads on me and fl? right now, we have 12 alive, so for town players 4/11 of people are scum, and that's not far from half of everyone. and 1552 seemed to indicate you thought i could be scum, but just didn't think that world was likely enough to push me in that moment. you say you agreed with us on stuff; what would you say those things were, that made you think scum wouldn't say that? (i'm not sure how useful it is sorting wise, but i think fl is *less likely* to do ate - i said as much at the time, i think he likes to have fun with it if he can - but think it could easily be maf!fl feeling frustrated at marci in a genuine way)

Pretty sure I've made note of my reasoning before, but I've agreed with a lot of things the both of you have said. Like that time where I was doing a catch-up without reading ahead first and posted something and then I get to like the next post and there you were, saying the same thing I'd just said (except actually before I said it). And I've mentioned that I believe in Leaf's meta argument that he wouldn't act like he did with marci as scum. That whole sequence with him arguing with her and then Roden felt very organically like him trying to solve and getting carried away.

[Aureal]

Okay, definitely different from what I thought. Fwiw I had come up with that thought on the clouds on my own and was happy to see that someone else had thought the same. Of course I was serious, we were literally told that the flavor would have game elements in it.

Yeah but the

weather

seems like the least likely part that would be relevant. Hence my needing to take note of it just because it being so clearly the most mundane thing means it actually maybe isn't.

Not really sure what to say or think about the rest of your thoughts re: TMI. Since we don't know how scum get its funds, its not really something that could be easily proven or disproven. On my side, I'm trying to decide if I think this is a real reason for a sr from you or a fake one from scum!Aureal. Idk, it's seems a bit odd to me but you did say that it was pie in the sky.

I'm not sure what Undertale is, but your thought is interesting. What about the game is making you think that we're supposed to be applying real world morality though? I'm not sure intelligentia or bureau read as morally positive things to me, more neutral leaning dark in real world. And the flavor of the game is- I mean, it's pretty clear that we don't really live in Utopia, the place is a post apocalyptic government controlled nightmare.

Well if it's not the weather that's relevant it's gotta be something, eh?

If this game wasn't listed the way it was, I'd be strongly suspecting it to be a cult game now, but potential alignment changes should've been noted in the signups. A society that does the things we're doing is obviously gonna have issues with insurgents (and rightly so) and trying to crack down on them is likely to just make it easier for them to recruit.

Also Undertale is a great game and you should play it.

[Aureal]

wow, i proclaimed myself as mayor and now everyone is giving me the silent treatment

anyway @aureal, sorry to ask you three things at once, but i noticed you were calling me 'she' earlier. i don't think we're that familiar with each other, but if you were like, scum with marci (or maybe someone else? i think marci would be the most likely to realise who i am) i imagine you would have been able to find out about who i am pretty quickly. but that's reachy, so; is there like a reason you opted for that? i realise it might seem like a trivial point, and like maybe it is lmao, but it stood out to me since i don't think anyone else was doing that

Uh... I guess if you didn't have that set in your pronoun field at first and changed it since, I must've just absorbed the pretty kitty energy from your avatar and settled on that one. I don't default to male pronouns for people, I just go with whatever feels right in situations where it doesn't seem people care.

Oh, and readlist...

Flavor Leaf
meowmeow
Deal With The Devil/Hu Tao
camelCasedSnivy
Enchant/Cat Scratch Fever
SirCakez
Merlyn
RCEnigma
marcistar

[Aureal]

oh, btw, someone will need to clue me in on why this is apparently enchant's town meta

if anything i'm feeling the opposite

In my experience, solvy Enchant is the town tell.....not seeing too much trolling so far. Not a strong read at the moment tbh.

^This

[Aureal]

My readlist:

Meow, CSF, devil
Marci, RCE
Hu Tao, Aureal
Snivy, FL

What about Enchant and Cakez?

[Aureal]

VOTE: Snivy I think FL is pulling your strings from behind the scenes.

mm i can see where you get that read from

You do? Where, then?

[Aureal]

I should say bus.

But yeah, you're grasping at straws with this wiggle thing, Merlyn.

Feels like it's all you got.

lol okay. Well, I'm fine with going first today if town does decide to follow your lead here. But I want you to go next then.

not sure if this is scum trying to be ballsy enough to appear town

Feels rather like it to me. Town

can

get defiant and want to 1v1, but the certainty of trying to bring someone else down with you is unwise and leans scum.

[Aureal]

Aureal had a lot of posts D1 that felt kind of reasonable and level headed, but when I went back and read them I noticed they're most about mech. She was on the Infinity wagon. She townreads you and expressed doubt that we should even check your alignment. She's played with you- she wasn't sure you were town in dividing connor right till the end. Why isn't she a least doubting your alignment or seeing reason in checking it today?

Because you don't use your investigation on your strongest townread, not unless you're really paranoid about your reads. And that's what the situation is for me. I understand I am not the entire playerlist, that's why I asked for people to clarify their position on the matter. Because I didn't want to waste it if like one person is suspicious of him and a bunch of others are just shrugging and going along with it. I suppose given that meow is one of the people suspicious of him, it might help sort things between them which would be good, because I sure don't think I can do anything to get them to trust each other.

I still think scum's biggest priority is going to be making sure

they

don't get hit with it and Leaf is typically making it all about himself, though.

[Aureal]

VOTE: Marcistar

I think this is good. She's skated by largely on tone so far, but I feel like she's just been coming in to argue against people's scumreads of her instead of trying to find scum

I don't even know that I would even say she's doing that much.

VOTE: marcistar

[Aureal]

I read dividing connor and kinda thought she was lurkwolf tbh. She doesn't feel like that here

It's definitely more reminiscent of my other game with scum Merlyn than dividing connor. She can definitely be active and townread and daring. It took me until elo to get her because she damn near bussed her rolecop partner on day one- it was townies jostling around at the last moment that saved them there while Merlyn sat on the wagon.

[Aureal]

viewtopic.php?t=90918

[Aureal]

i noted that in my post! i just wanted a bit more detail out of the read? like, what posts are you referring to that you think scum meow wouldn't write

I really don't have the energy to try to go back and figure this sort of thing at the moment, sorry. I don't know what 'scum meow' would write, but repeatedly thinking the same way is a pretty typical way to gain a townread on someone and I think I've noted several points where this has been the case.

and i mean idk with the marci stuff don't you think scum fl could have been genuinely frustrated with marci? like i don't think he was like going out of his way to appeal to emotion in that situation but i've seen before that he can get heated as scum and like... i def understand how you could townlean that sequence for fl but i don't get such a high level of confidence?

If you have specific examples I'll be happy to take a look. I said before that if it's not true then people here who are more familiar with him ought to be able to disprove it, so feel free to show me. I'm inclined to believe it because I feel like if I ever manage to get a scum PM again, Righteous Anger Mode is not something I'm going to really be able to use there so I can understand that someone else doesn't do that.

Do you expect that FL would be willing to bus a teammate here to get out of the torture action being used on him?

[Aureal]

and fwiw my thoughts on cakez are

- i was fine with most of his d1 posting, i didn't like strongly townread him but generally didn't like the wagon much
- i think without the prolonged pressure on him his posting has been a lot worse
- not really sure what he sees re: an agenda in infinity posting about the sacrifice ability? could see him as scum on that wagon i guess
- i think the profanity in response to the 4 scum reveal especially 1467 felt a little fake to me especially since he kinda clearly isn't invested in this game? just feels a bit over the top considering it seems like he shouldn't care that much.
- i don't like the comparative total lack of momentum after he stops getting pushed
- i think of cakez as not that much of a mechanically orientated player so i'm not a big fan of him delving into the mech d2 at the expense of other content
- i thought of the mech posts, 1484 was the most interesting but there are obvious issues in the implementation (eg deciding lims in advance) and his lack of like, really tackling that makes me think it's not that towny
- i think town can often do the 'oh i have no scumreads game hard' thing and i was townleaning it from cakez earlier but enough people are doing it this game that i don't really feel like buying into it right now
- in general, it can be difficult to differentiate between demotivated town and demotivated scum but i think cakez is worth looking at and considering how much he was a focus d1 i was surprised that most people haven't seemed interested d2 even after my vote which i thought might provoke discussion

You're definitely making me think more about Cakez now.

[Aureal]

That would also address the potential for scum to screw the elimination up entirely with secret votes. Like if we only have one person on in order to use Recount to confirm them, but there's 1.5 secret votes they could just flip whomever.

That would mean we'd be left with on Sacrifice as a second project tomorrow though, with no budget left after recount.

HURT: Election Security

[Aureal]

i almost wanna say everyone on torture vote gets ever so slight scum points at an attempt to overturn the torture target

I have no idea what you're trying to say here?

[Aureal]

Oh, I think I see what you mean, but I think we've pretty much arrived at the 'consensus' that it's FL or meow depending on marci's flip. So if it ends up on you or something, I expect a lot of explanation will be in order.

Now I almost want to vote that so I can try to control it to someone else seeing as those are my top townreads so it's not really doing much for me. >_>

meh

[Aureal]

aureal has been the counterwagon attempt for a minute.

i pushed aureal earlier and nobody cared, and then marci gets pushed and everyone starts to want aureal. thats scum indicative of marciscum imo

But... you were voting me earlier, saying Merlyn and marci were also candidates to push. Why would scum not go for it then and instead wait for you to change your mind? If you're thinking this is a scum defense of marci, that would implicate Merlyn with her. So it'd be quite odd for them to not strike while the iron is hot seeing as you were likely to turn against scum next- Merlyn at the least should know you're pretty fickle and that was likely to happen.

[Aureal]

I've definitely seen town Enchant hammer just to be spiteful when he thinks people are being stupid.

[Aureal]

aureal has been the counterwagon attempt for a minute.

i pushed aureal earlier and nobody cared, and then marci gets pushed and everyone starts to want aureal. thats scum indicative of marciscum imo

But... you were voting me earlier, saying Merlyn and marci were also candidates to push. Why would scum not go for it then and instead wait for you to change your mind? If you're thinking this is a scum defense of marci, that would implicate Merlyn with her. So it'd be quite odd for them to not strike while the iron is hot seeing as you were likely to turn against scum next- Merlyn at the least should know you're pretty fickle and that was likely to happen.

Why did you ask this question btw

Because the situation confuses me and I don't think it's that simple.

[Aureal]

Like, I'm townreading the wagon and scumreading Marci so it feels like this should be getting resistance from scum. But not this sort of last minute, anemic resistance. Scum all staying off rather than bussing but also only putting up a token resistance just feels wrong. In a scum Marci world it feels like they should either be bussing for towncred or going hard trying to drive a counterwagon.

[Aureal]

Still thinking this is town Enchant.

Have fun with your evil council tonight you guys! I'll just be over here being an upstanding citizen securing our elections.

[Aureal]

VOTE: SirCakez
HURT: Recount

Told you guys torture's flavor was bad. I'm guessing Leaf can't participate today.

[Aureal]

Also bold of you to invoke a told-you-so when you've mislimmed twice in the game so far!

You know, I've been told that it's scummy for someone to try to use "you were on both miselims" as a reason to doubt people. Granted, it was said by scum who was trying to push me for being right, but in this case it feels rather applicable. You're literally trying to shade me because I correctly suspected that the flavor of the action taken being a bad thing could lead to bad things for us. My votes have nothing to do with that.

I mean, I guess it's not a bad thing for the scumteam, to have conftown out of action for the day...

[Aureal]

"I was told by scum...that something is scummy...when I personally did it as town...but now that YOU'RE doing it it's scummy."

I don't think it's an unreasonable point even though it came from scum and obviously plenty of other people in that game thought it reasonable too, because I very nearly got miseliminated there. And I think the way you brought it up out of absolutely nothing as a gotcha was a lot more suspicious than what I had said.

How was torture a bad thing that has led to bad things for us? If FL is out for the day that's just the worst thing that could have happened to town?

?????

You don't think that conftown being restricted in what they can do would be a bad thing?

On that note, Leaf you should vote for someone because lacking a vote might be the effect of the torture.

[Aureal]

I'm simultaneously getting shaded for my reads being too bad and my reads being too good. That's just lovely. :/

[Aureal]

I'm simultaneously getting shaded for my reads being too bad and my reads being too good. That's just lovely. :/

I don't really like how you're framing this... it's like framing it as if the points lobbed against you are somehow contradictory but I don't really think they are

Can't help feeling how I feel. They'd be contradictory points if they were from the same person, but it's still not a fun feeling.

I wish I could just shut off my memory that this site exists for the rest of the day and just go enjoy myself because I'm really not feeling too great right now.

[Aureal]

Aureal, if you’re town, you did nothing wrong and it’s more of scum manipulating the game.

Thanks, I know that but it really helps to have someone else say so rather than trash on someone's play.

[Aureal]

i am starting to, and this wont surprise anyone in the Council last, suspect CSF.

I've been feeling a little about her lately because a few times now she's popped in with "why did you say THAT, it seems pointless" questions aimed at me that feel rather like she's trying to undermine me. I don't really know why my comment about the way the marci flip went down was supposed to be weird: it seems pretty obvious to me that scumflips with nothing but your townreads on the wagon are going to be vanishingly rare, especially in earlier stages of a game like this.

Also I had the sudden feeling that maybe Devil had come up with the late push for Election Security in order to get us to use more budget so scum could afford the poison. But I went back and checked and we actually spent 10k less than if we'd done a development since Election Security is only 10k. So never mind that.

This has been your pitiful daily musing brought to you by Aureal

[Aureal]

I would love for someone to tell me why they're town reading snivy. Like, I want someone to go through his iso and find any evidence of scum hunting, or pushing, or anything at all.

I've been townreading Snivy since he forgot about the plurality vote back on day one. I have a hard time thinking that mafia are going to forget about that, especially with four of them- surely some of their planning accounts for it. I have no idea how to read him otherwise.

On that subject though, I've been feeling more skeptical of Hu Tao's lack of understanding of it, so I looked back through her ISO. I know she replaced in and was told to basically ignore mechanics so she could get into the game, but I'm getting really weird feelings from her engagement with the mechanics, or lack thereof. In one post we get confusion:

Maybe I don't understand the mechanics of this game but why is no one dying at night?

in the next we get an attempt to tackle one of the more enigmatic things we've got:

So I've been thinking about inquiry. I think the fact that it is there means we are being mislead about something and it's worrying. Not sure what it could be

It feels rather dichotomous. But I find it much harder to swallow this:

I am a big mech newbie, as no doubt evidenced by a bunch of things I've already said in this game. But if there was a billboard option of 50K right now that said 'guaranteed scum catch' we'd all pick it and not consider it a waste, right?

I don't think it is a guaranteed scum catch

It's more like this: if we end up voting out town, then we get to use Recount as a parity cop check. If we end up voting scum, then scum can self hammer and mess up the Recount result so the result isn't useful in this scenario -- we would have spent $60k on something not useful.

Counter argument if we do it correctly and it's all town we can have a few people clear correct?

combined with this:

Probably not.

We can do 2 + Me.

I feel there’s gonna be some players who try to go against the plan.

I assumed recount was for all those on the majority vote?

but then after that, we get this:

What?

Okay, so THIS was the plan. Right?

Wait what's the plan for recount tomorrow? How does it get used as a parity check if it only tells us binary y/n if there was a scum on the wagon but not how many?

It's not exactly a parity check.
Basically, no one votes except 2 people on the chosen execution wagon and we let it pass by plurality. If we get a no, they're both confirmed town, and if we get a yes, we know at least one of them is scum.

- Alianna

So two people.

I'm so confused.. so it's the people who are voting on recount? Or are you saying we can eliminate people with only 2 voters

Hu Tao understood that recount was for all voters on the majority wagon, but thought that it needed a full 6 people in order to go through up until that last post? That's not just "a few people clear" as she said in 2222. That'd be clearing six out of seven remaining town - game over for scum. (and one is already clear, at that)

So it feels like the lack of understanding the plurality elimination is fake.

[Aureal]

I've been feeling a little about her lately because a few times now she's popped in with "why did you say THAT, it seems pointless" questions aimed at me that feel rather like she's trying to undermine me. I don't really know why my comment about the way the marci flip went down was supposed to be weird: it seems pretty obvious to me that scumflips with nothing but your townreads on the wagon are going to be vanishingly rare, especially in earlier stages of a game like this.

Which posts? & which comment about the marci flip?

aureal has been the counterwagon attempt for a minute.

i pushed aureal earlier and nobody cared, and then marci gets pushed and everyone starts to want aureal. thats scum indicative of marciscum imo

But... you were voting me earlier, saying Merlyn and marci were also candidates to push. Why would scum not go for it then and instead wait for you to change your mind? If you're thinking this is a scum defense of marci, that would implicate Merlyn with her. So it'd be quite odd for them to not strike while the iron is hot seeing as you were likely to turn against scum next- Merlyn at the least should know you're pretty fickle and that was likely to happen.

Why did you ask this question btw

aureal has been the counterwagon attempt for a minute.

i pushed aureal earlier and nobody cared, and then marci gets pushed and everyone starts to want aureal. thats scum indicative of marciscum imo

But... you were voting me earlier, saying Merlyn and marci were also candidates to push. Why would scum not go for it then and instead wait for you to change your mind? If you're thinking this is a scum defense of marci, that would implicate Merlyn with her. So it'd be quite odd for them to not strike while the iron is hot seeing as you were likely to turn against scum next- Merlyn at the least should know you're pretty fickle and that was likely to happen.

Why did you ask this question btw

Because the situation confuses me and I don't think it's that simple.

It seems like a strange question to ask because it's like asking why didn't scum bus Marci pre-emptively

Is that what you think happened here?

[Aureal]

... Okay i change my mind, it's insanely scumsided.

Hard agree. I haven't looked at the hidden info yet, but it was basically mountainous, which has only a 39.5% expected town winrate at an 11:2 ratio. Having it be 4:9 instead is just...

ouch

. Scum didn't have totally reliable nightkills but it certainly was good enough that it's far off of being a nightless. Only if town had done some off-the-wall strategy of picking the cheapest stuff to try to deny power to the scum would it approach being nightless, it seems. And town is

never

going to do that with the sparse and potentially false information that we were given.

Honestly, I found the setup rather discouraging (and I think that showed in my gameplay). As I mentioned, I had the feeling that the most obviously 'useful' options were going to have downsides that we couldn't properly evaluate. Maybe bastard games aren't for me, but it feels like town was being punished for trying to actually use the game mechanics instead of ignoring them as best possible.

[Aureal]

Speaking of odds, this has been my FOURTEENTH TOWNGAME IN A ROW. WHAT IS THIS SORCERY?

Oh, so that's why you rolled me that one scum game, so I wouldn't be at like 18 or something by now.

[Aureal]

Also Undertale is a great game and you should play it.

That's right, I was waiting to say this post game, but I looked undertale up and it's right up my alley! I love a retro look game and I also love it when choices matter in games. Into the Steam cart it has gone

I will consider this game a win, then. Spreading the joy of Undertale is more important than Mafia!

[Aureal]

Speaking of odds, this has been my FOURTEENTH TOWNGAME IN A ROW. WHAT IS THIS SORCERY?

Oh, so that's why you rolled me that one scum game, so I wouldn't be at like 18 or something by now.

We should make an Always Town hydra.

Yeah, maybe the sheer audacity would cancel out the intense gravitational field that pulls our dice only one way. I love the plan.