Open 887: Coalition of Frogs (Game Over)

[Bellaphant]

First!

[Bellaphant]

Just to be clear, five votes doesn't lock anything in? I'm so bad at mech.

[Bellaphant]

HEAL: datisi

[Bellaphant]

Lol, I was going to ask if you were an alt, but I realised I had no basis for that thought. #dayonebellamafiatakes

[Bellaphant]

I don't feel like anyone is trying to pocket me specifically?

I think dats' take on mala is more likely to be right, I'm low key concerned about the amount of words used to discuss mala being x2000 mala's words.

[Bellaphant]

Cool, now I basically agree with everything hero said (I didn't see it at first but yeah, the vibes are off), especially vibe with dats being a strong tr, which I think is weird for me.

[Bellaphant]

I dunno, some of that is a reach.

I don't ness. think Hero is scum for giving the reasons but I don't agree with them

pedit: Bella, for example: you think someone was gonna use try and use a joke about flying in from the scumthread to try and prove later he had a scumread on implosion?

@mer, can you expand/reword this? I feel like the question is wieirdly specific when I've been talking about 'vibes' but maybe you can re frame?

[Bellaphant]

I wonder if ths is an alt? I feel there is something/weird/ about the pick of me, but I also feel like Ari has said 'things vaguely about me' that felt a bit red flag

[Bellaphant]

HEAL: hero

[Bellaphant]

I dunno, some of that is a reach.

I don't ness. think Hero is scum for giving the reasons but I don't agree with them

pedit: Bella, for example: you think someone was gonna use try and use a joke about flying in from the scumthread to try and prove later he had a scumread on implosion?

@mer, can you expand/reword this? I feel like the question is wieirdly specific when I've been talking about 'vibes' but maybe you can re frame?

yeah, I was responding to the post you made were you said you agreed with most or all of what Hero said. It surprised me that you said that bc I had just been writing a post about how some of the reasons were weaksauce. I was using the joke one as an example to ask you if you really meant it when you said you agreed with it all

I meant mainly the two posts about Ari and TSH? What I was also intending to get across was I originally thought hero's push on tsh was more weaksauce, but is liked what they were saying about the 'feel' of the posts. I also particularly agreed with what hero said about the coalition and their reads in that specific order bc it parelled mine for similar reasons.

[Bellaphant]

Also, they agreed with me about the days/Ari/mala thing, which comes up again where they said the re-read it and it kinda feels blank-ish for Ari but town for dats which I also how I feel.

[Bellaphant]

Huh, I felt like Ari low key sr me?

[Bellaphant]

Drew, talk to me about mer?

Implo, any questions for me?

[Bellaphant]

I find you hard to read, specifically. I think I'm pretty ok on a bunch of reads. I'm pretty sure drew is town but unsure on mer, I was tr then early but I don't feel it totally now, so I wanted someone who had a clear opinion.

I think Ari is scum.

[Bellaphant]

VOTE: ari do the votes actually count?

[Bellaphant]

so right now i'm kinda happy with a datisi/hero/merlyn/bella/implosion coalition.
is there anyone who actually SR's these people?

btw this is not intentional but the literal page 9 pagebottom is my solve which means it's perfect for a page 10 coalition, right?

eh, i'll wait at least 2 more days to see if there's a dramatic change...

I'm catching up but this is fine

[Bellaphant]

Drew over mer, maybe?

I have a lot of feelings about Ari, I'll be back when it's not the school run

[Bellaphant]

specifically, i didn't target bella at all, i just answered a question she had. you'd have to squint hard to read that as me focusing her, especially since that's probably my only interaction with her slot. and sure, scum *could* answer the question but are you saying that town would just ignore it? that's really ??? of you.

all three of your first three posts had something to do with bella and none of them really had any meaningful intent to sort her.

I'm not saying town would just ignore it, I said it's something scum are eager to do. I'm quite lazy and I rarely answer basic mech questions as town but I am more likely to as mafia because it establishes an interaction touchpoint.

Ok, in hindsight I read this as being more about me than it was, Ans I was sure Ari had also mentione me off hand to dats, but I can't find it now, so my first red flag maybe wasn't there.

I think for the first half of the Game, Ari's takes felt very much about Ari's perception of the general game, rather than trying to work with the thread. Like all the words about mala: it felt like busy work and also just a fairly 'safe' thing for scum to have an opinion on. Until the last few pages, I've not massively seen them get into questioning the wider game. For example, I mentioned I thoight they sr me, wasn't follow up. I said I sr them, they havent asked why, just a general acknowledgement that they are under pressure. Contrast that to implo, who when I flagged then asked a fairly nuanced question about my question.

[Bellaphant]

I had a soul read on the alt but I think I'm wrong.

Tbf my read on datisi is super meta as well, but also what hero was saying about just...I don't find much reason to st them? I dunno, maybe I've been lucky, or maybe I find it harder to tr datisi just by us being super different players, but in team mafia I was Sus of them by about page five and I was right *shrug*

Beginning to think implo is town.

Is there enough people that people do agree on to have not hero, Ari or mala in the coalition?

@ari, why do you think I'm town?

[Bellaphant]

@hero, I'm not really, I'm talking about one we could agree on? I dunno, I still like dats' suggestion

My games I've replaced out and games with datisi are a weird correlation, just having gone ovw my meta. They've been scum on like a 3:1 ratio and I've had a correct read most of the time. My favourite thing just now was reading their scum ptnl from four years ago asking if I was timid BC of my personality or role pm

[Bellaphant]

?

[Bellaphant]

I know, I just feel like this convo happening on two levels isn't helping

[Bellaphant]

I do t think I'm sr you, although I am more hesitant than I was. The alt thing has bothered me a fair bit, which may not be fair but is true. Also, I felt like your slot was low key becoming controversial, and I'd rather people agreed on a coalition quickly, as I feel that we get more info if we are wrong after we have...more info.

I'm tired

[Bellaphant]

Hi, I haven't read, Izzy's gone to hospital so I'm vla for a day or so! Sorry mod

[Bellaphant]

(i'll talk about the scum case on him in a bit but it seems like hero is particularly intransigent on him

lol i guess i am

you know what, can i ask a question?

if THS is town then who are potential scum candidates for you?

I feel like I'd look at mer again? I think for me, I get their and Ari's perspectives least.

I'm not sure I strongly see ths as scum anymore anyway

[Bellaphant]

Im catching up x

[Bellaphant]

(i'll talk about the scum case on him in a bit but it seems like hero is particularly intransigent on him

lol i guess i am

you know what, can i ask a question?

if THS is town then who are potential scum candidates for you?

I feel like I'd look at mer again? I think for me, I get their and Ari's perspectives least.

I'm not sure I strongly see ths as scum anymore anyway

Your not just saying this because I just said this, right?

No, I hadn't even read that page! How funny. I'm catching back up as we speak..

[Bellaphant]

Ok, cool, I still really strongly think implo and drew are town. I really don't like mer's talking about comprise because that's just not how I see it: you should be strongly for your tree first, and then there should be a second tier, almost, of 'prob not scum " that's the compromise.

My ideal would be me/implo/Dr drew as those first strong reads, Ans then I'm more willing to compromise on a slot like Ari, where I feel it's mostly a 'gut' scum read from me: I also feel that this will get us more info.

I've gone back and forth about hero a bit, but weirdly his resposne about forgetting std is annoying town. Im still grumpy that everyone else knows the alt though!(do we even know each other? I'd care less If we didn't really have a 'history')

The fact that I've been fairly universally town read until the last few pages is interesting: are scum trying to get me replaced with them, or have I just not been here enough. Hmmm

[Bellaphant]

Ari, would you swap mala for you?

[Bellaphant]

I don't hate ths being in the coalition?

I can never fucking read mala, she's often not around and she's often scum when we play together

[Bellaphant]

I hadn't quite realise show the day phase worked, I am one again shit at mech..shall I just hammer?

[Bellaphant]

I'd need to reread but it felt like suddenly there was some pushback to me over the last few pages, when before I was equally weirdly a default in most coalitions?

Implo just bleeds town to me. They say things, and I'm like 'yep yep yep exactly '. I also liked their little question to me ages ago. Dr drew is more vibes and a bit of what hero said about me actually: I don't see anything /scum/, whilst I think I could make a case for a few people (mer, you, mala, ths, even hero).

@hero, I'm just the kind of person who likes approval it's nai

[Bellaphant]

Like, I find it equally weird that dats said I was coalition on like page two and a lot of people went yep, fair. That's not normally how my games go (although team mafia was a bit like this: I went from a default day one tr to the scum team doing really well and me being the compromise elim day five, so maybe I'm a bit jumpy)

[Bellaphant]

If it fails: either I'm wrong about implo (don't think so), drew (maybe??) Or then I'd relook at hero or you. Lots of info!

[Bellaphant]

Ari,talk to me about hero?

[Bellaphant]

..r.thst wasn't there when I pressed submit, I need to stop doing this

[Bellaphant]

Not caught up thoughts:

Ari/hero scum.team feels very unlikely? Scum theatre is rarely scum theatre in my experience. Is there one scum in them, maybe.
Drew and implo still town.
Could be persuaded on std, low confidence reading them
Have low key read sr mer since like page 5.

[Bellaphant]

Ugh I like hero's posting on this page and I can't work out if I'm being snowed.

[Bellaphant]

Question for you all: Given the way the coalition came about, how viable do you think an Ari/Hero scumteam is?

Ari/hero scumteam would mean a lot of theater. I don't think the way the coalition came about particularly points to that; Datisi thought it was a good coalition, ari+hero were the first votes on the coalition and other people voted it up later, I don't think the way hero turned around their read on Ari is particularly s->s, etc.

Why is this your first thought that you wanted to ask about?

Just the way I start to solve things. if you can rule out one partnership it makes it more probable that there's one scum elsewhere and easier to cross out certain partners. For example, I think if STD is scum then it makes it more likely Drew is town because he was the first to suggest removing Datisi from the Coalition

I hate this? It feels like picking on the two most obvious players to get 'heat' and then the justification is terrible too , especially picking drew who's obv town and the not considering if he was scum then std could be town and drew wanted him replaced with his scum partner, for example.

Ari/hero is not s/s
Hero/ths isn't s/s unless some horrible cross bus

[Bellaphant]

I'm re reading from 25, snowed means fooled, hero: I sometimes feel I /want/ you to be town more than you are, but I find myself agreeing with you too much!

Didn't the hammer come after I'd already asked about the hammer? Like, that was /the/ conversation?

Page 26 incoming

[Bellaphant]

Ok, merlyn is probably town, which helps narrow stuff down a bit.

I don't see the implosion push at all? I think in this game more than most toy need to be really confident with your trs and this is weak sauce.

Rh9 replacing in and immediately defending std just looks too scummy to be...both scum? Ugh, I thought for a sec that rh had replaced std and was defending his own slot, that's how hard their post made me double take.

I don't have any hard conclusions though.

[Bellaphant]

UNVOTE:

Fuck,.aris 27 was super town too, it's the first thing I've seen that feels out of range?

[Bellaphant]

ok caught up

i like bella now after 357 and recent posting

i like implo i like ari i like hero i like me, it felt right when datisi suggested it (even though he immediately suggested drew instead of bella) and it felt right when hero suggested it

i like this coalition

i think it's a winner

HEAL: std/ari/bella/hero/implo

Ok, so here std says he likes me after 'recent' posting. The posting on this page, two of my posts discuss whether I should hammer.


Than he doesn't know it's the hammer?

[Bellaphant]

Lol no, at hero, It wasn't that page

[Bellaphant]

I just like implo, I don't want to vote there. I get why Drew's voting there but that doesn't mean I think he's right about it. I scumread the other two slots to varying degrees so that makes me uneasy about this wagon. I'm actually pretty happy with my current vote

I dunno, I really like this

[Bellaphant]

Why would I be prodding at rh9s defense of std of he was my scum buddy?

Also, I literally asked if we could swap Ari out just before it was hammered?

Mate, you are spinning a narrative that doesn't match the facts.

[Bellaphant]

Should we all be making a read list, or all we all locked into buddies or if ...then? I feel like it's a mistake I'm making, certainly

[Bellaphant]

I think Hero, Imp, Merlyn, is good, Bella is fien, but I don't really trust Ari, Dats, or Drew.

Right now what I'm thinking of is,

Hero at Heart
Merlyn
Implosion
Doctor Drew or Datisi
---
Bellaphant
Malakittens
Aristela

you know what? i am done. i am done with this meta discussion, i am done with discussing my tr of datisi, and i am done with this silly 1v1 with ari. it's not fun and it's not helping town win.

so here's what we're going to do instead. i am going to propose a coalition, and ari - please sheep it eliminate me if it fails. you have my solemn promise i won't push you (but i will be looking for scum). here's my coalition:
HEAL: ari, datisi, hero, implo, bella

i'd rather tell ari "i told you" in the postgame after we won than continue this stupid, unfun argument. or i guess if she's scum i can tell her "gg wp you tricked us all". but i don't think she's scum.

the above coalition is actually final*.

*barring extreme shenanigans like datisi claiming scum or some crazy, game changing scumslip.

how willing are you to replace ari with merlyn

I honestly am wondering now if Drew and Malakittens might be the solve. Take what I said about Drew in 206 and then Drew's sudden push to be in the coalition on page 12. Then you have Malakitten's inactivity making them a fairly unlikely candidate for the coalition at this juncture. Anyone who is a scum partner with Malakittens would have to be pressed hard to make sure they're in the coalition or else the game is over.

hi THS, sorry for ignoring these posts.
i've been kind of checked out from the game even though it might not look like that since i did post but i didn't actually look at anything thoroughly or try to analyze anything.

here's the way i think this is going to go:

i think hero's thought process seems very genuine and authentic and i actually got good vibes when we had that argument pages ago. i felt like i was talking to a town, not a scum.

i think the coalition is going to be wrong, and then he's going to lead a lim on me which is also going to be wrong.

what happens beyond then is out of my control

1. if i understood correctly, your sr on me was based on perceiving me as subtly trying to ride your wagon. does me not being as subtle aa you were expecting me to be change your viewpoint on me?
2. well, have you looked at the others? what did you see?

I already SAID you not being as subtle changed my viewpoint on you in 139 and I've BEEN looking at others in 188, 206, 235, 244, 245,

I do agree that numbers wise it just makes sense to put yourself forward for the coalition bc if you know you're town then you can only be wrong about 4 spots rather than 5. The only person who can really relax and not need to advocate for themselves here is a wolf who is pushing a partner in there. There's no point in being worried that it will make you a target later if the coalition fails, you're getting heat now anyway.

i have two completed games of coalition;

viewtopic.php?t=91245
viewtopic.php?t=89428

I am town in both

I suggested not being in coalition in both

I ended up in the coalition in both

I personally do not enjoy being in the coalition unless I'm absolutely certain my coalition is winning.

I am nowhere near that level of certainty at present and might never be.

Saying that I am mafia for not wanting to be in the coalition because all townies would want to be in the coalition and ascribing the only possible reason for someone not wanting to be in the coalition as "they are mafia who are pushing their partner in instead" is reductionist and absurd.

I can believe this.

so if you believe ari's self towncase (at least i think that's what you are implying), and think that your townread on me is good, why do you think exactly that the coalition i suggested will fail? like who out of the 5 people do you suspect? bella? implo? datisi? please elaborate

I'm least certain on Datisi and Ari. I'll elaborate more on that soon but I've fallen sick and don't have the mental energy right now

Started re-reading.

Ari seems better than I remembered. Asking questions I'd expect town to ask.

I don't feel very strongly about Bella being town anymore. She's played this pretty reactively.

Drew might be town because I can't think of why scum would make 168 at this point in time.

Datisi seemed town.

Merlyn I could see going either way.

HEAL: Aristella[/hurt]

HURT: Bellaphant

HURT: Merlyn

HEAL: Bellaphant

I'm not completely convinced that Bellaphant won't break this but we do need to save time for phase two, and I think this is about as good as it might get.

Can you walk me through your progression on drew, mer and me specifically? Coz what I'm seeing doesn't make a ton of sense (your read on me is the one I'm least worried about, tbf)

[Bellaphant]

??

[Bellaphant]

I agree with implo, again

[Bellaphant]

728 specifically.

[Bellaphant]

Im going to read dats with ths iso lager

[Bellaphant]

Are you just not going to respond to me?

[Bellaphant]

Three posts on the last page I'm expecting a response to.

[Bellaphant]

It's fairly obvious I don't understand why you think I'm scum, mainly because you ...you know, you won't talk to me?

Your progression on drew makes no sense, therfor I think it's scummy..

[Bellaphant]

No, I'm asking you to engage with me, so we can sort each other.

I don't get the draw thing. It shiikdnt be massive time and effort to explain, it's ...your read.

Like, here's the tldr on my confusing Ari read:
The dats/Ari game opening felt scummy
I thought it was weird Ari didn't respond to my.sxum read and I felt like their read on me didn't make sense
They responded to that in a fairly.+town way
The middle section with hero really threw me, I felt like they were a bit agenda driven
I've liked their posting more since the coalition failed, they seem more solve focused.
Conclusion: they might be town, maybe it was the dars but of the early game that made me feel weird

[Bellaphant]

People taking about me without engaging with me always pisses me off. Recently it's actually been the thing that caught me two scum, so yeah, it is a red flag

[Bellaphant]

Ths coming at me without much reason feels weird from town or scum tho?

[Bellaphant]

Std, rh9 and the are all.making fucking weird choices without much explanation, they can't all be scum

[Bellaphant]

Coz we are running out of reasons the coalition failed if it's not std.

I'm obv town, hero would always say hero is town, hero strong trs implo (I think? I do), so it's almost poe by that point? Weird q

[Bellaphant]

It's why ...Ari or mer, forgot who, said that the people off coalition need to be louder: we already have one less suspect, sothe peeps on coalition are looking for 1 or horrendously 2 in four. Add in one lock town read and it's a 50/50 choice, almost.

This isn't true for people off coalition

[Bellaphant]

I'm worried because like...rh9, std, ths and Ari is way too many scum: Ans then I'm paranoid I'm missing a deep wolf and being distracted.

[Bellaphant]

I came in to the day feeling much more confident that Ari was town and that the pings I got early game were from dats, not ari, but ugh, I dknt like being her default sr.

The safest play is probably rh9?

Ths just strikes me as a low info kill, generally, although at that point its slightly weird it wasn't merlyn

[Bellaphant]

Apologies if it's been discussed, but how likely is it that the coalition was pure, aside from datisi?

I feel like rh9 just isn't usually this limbaity?

[Bellaphant]

Sorry, I am five pages behind, just read merlyn's thing about the coalition, think it's pretty sound. Catching up

[Bellaphant]

If you really want Hero today, we can do him.
Though, I agree with Merlyn that his EoD would've been performative as scum.

This is bad

so your theory is that I'm mafia and I decided instead of letting you push RH9 to death today and then Drew to death tommorrow I started to jump up and down and say you're mafia

ok sure why would I do that

Ugh, posts like this do make me want to tr Ari.

I read the fight, I got nothing. I think the safest thing to do is Titus, and then re-think if it isn't. But actually this game might be just on easy mode.

[Bellaphant]

Let's give Titus 24 hours and then yeah, intent to hammer

[Bellaphant]

^ clearly scum trying to blend in

[Bellaphant]

Both rep ina have made really strange decisions for town straight off the bat. I'm over this, let's hammer and be done?

[Bellaphant]

It is past my bedtime but I want to look at these VCS in the morning n particularly the implo v std wagon

Votecount 1.7

It is currently the Coalition Phase. With 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to confirm a coalition. Day 1 ends in (expired on 2023-10-11 13:11:19).

Coalition Votes

Aristeia, Bellaphant, Hero at Heart, implosion, Save the Dragons (5)

- Hero at Heart, Aristeia, TheHoldSteady, Malakittens, Save the Dragons

Datisi

- Bellaphant

Datisi, Doctor Drew, implosion, Merlyn

- Merlyn

Not Voting (2)

- Doctor Drew, implosion

Elimination Votes

TheHoldSteady (2)

- Save the Dragons, Hero at Heart

Aristeia (1)

- Bellaphant

Hero at Heart (1)

- TheHoldSteady

Not Voting (5)

- Aristeia, Doctor Drew, implosion, Malakittens, Merlyn

Flavour

Votecount 1.8

It is currently the Elimination Phase. With 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to confirm a coalition. Day 1 ends in (expired on 2023-10-11 14:11:19).

Elimination Votes

TheHoldSteady (2)

- Save the Dragons, Hero at Heart

Aristeia (1)

- Bellaphant

Hero at Heart (1)

- TheHoldSteady

Not Voting (5)

- Aristeia, Doctor Drew, implosion, Malakittens, Merlyn

Flavour

Mod Notes

I added an hour to the deadline to compensate for the thread lock.

Votecount 1.12

It is currently the Elimination Phase. With 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to confirm a coalition. Day 1 ends in (expired on 2023-10-11 14:11:19).

Elimination Votes

Save the Dragons (3)

- implosion, Merlyn, Hero at Heart

implosion (3)

- Save the Dragons, Doctor Drew, RH9

Not Voting (3)

- Aristeia, Bellaphant, TheHoldSteady

Flavour

Votecount 1.14

It is currently the Elimination Phase. With 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to confirm a coalition. Day 1 ends in (expired on 2023-10-11 14:11:19).

Elimination Votes

Save the Dragons (5)

- implosion, Merlyn, TheHoldSteady, Aristeia, Doctor Drew

implosion (2)

- Save the Dragons, RH9

Not Voting (2)

- Bellaphant, Hero at Heart

Flavour

Votecount 2.3

With 7 players alive, it takes 4 votes to eliminate. Day 2 ends in (expired on 2023-10-19 20:17:13).

Elimination Votes

Titus (4)

- Merlyn, Doctor Drew, Hero at Heart, implosion

Hero at Heart (1)

- Titus

Not Voting (2)

- Aristeia, Bellaphant

Flavour

[Bellaphant]

I think it would be weird for hero and std to vote ths if both were scum? Idek

[Bellaphant]

Drew's a weird choice when I feel like I had the strongest tr of him? Like, why not kill implo, who I think everyone tr?

Ugh

[Bellaphant]

I don't think Ari not being shot clears Ari or hero, neither would play that basic?

My current thoughts are:
Ari still/could/ be scum. Her and mer I have found really hard to straight town bin all game
Mer: see above
Implo: playing a fantastic scum game??
Hero:see above, but with more 'obvious' mistakes

[Bellaphant]

also with bella, my tr on her was based on assuming she was in her town meta, but i realize now that there's something slightly off and this might be an imitation of her town meta than her real town meta

so i think i want today to lim between bella and implo.

Do you wanna talk to me about this? I feel my scum game has been better recently, but it's actually because I fake aggression better, which gets tr more easily.

[Bellaphant]

Why would scum kill mer? I feel like that was a more useful kill when they killed ths, not now

[Bellaphant]

I don't recognise what you said about being true this game? Like, my reads have been boring af: vaguely Sus/confused by ths, ari and mer have never reached consistently town, I've been super loud about Dr drew beinf town when I feel others weren't, etc.

Also, I find positioning around my buddies super hard: I think my tr of datisi would be super ballsy

Anyway, re mer: I think right now mer would be a really low info kill, which in some ways is helpful to scum, but I feel like if that's what they wanted, killing them nighr one would've been more helpful? Ths felt same levels of info but more lim-able?

[Bellaphant]

Also, wine

[Bellaphant]

Wine was I was drunk.

Also, wasn't really a defence, did actually want to engage with you about what I asked.

[Bellaphant]

It's both, isn't it? It has to be a group we can agree on that has the most likely chance of everyone being town, taking in to account that everyone has different reads. For example, I think I was the only person strongly wanting Dr drew in the coalition?

Those are still reads that I feel have the least clarity around them, with mer too, although I kind of get what you are saying about ths, but I didn't see it like that at the time. You want the slots with the most info, but it is more of a compromise than a straight lim

[Bellaphant]

The without you bit is interestibg but I feel I've covered it again: I don't 100% trust you..you feel at times like you are narrative crafting, but I can't tell if that's just personality, or scummy. I thought you were originally Alisae, because you remind me a lot of them in team mafia, where they had the same vibe. I dunno if the alt thing is throwing my subconscious more than I think.

I do agree that everyone looks town to a fair degree. What makes mer town to you? They are the only person who's thought process I've not been like 'yeah sure ' on, but they haven't been overtly scummy

[Bellaphant]

Also, I find positioning around my buddies super hard: I think my tr of datisi would be super ballsy

i mean i would call this a defense, idk why you wouldn't call it a defense.

Ike here: is the defense the pojtn of the post? No, but your response reframes it as it

[Bellaphant]

Part of me doesn't even know why I'm fussing at you, the fact you are efforrting is probably town anyway, I think I low-key want my thoughts prodded because the game is horribly slow

Anyone else got points for me?

[Bellaphant]

I'm reading back

[Bellaphant]

This is a fucking weird elo: I was coming in ready to vote for Ari. For me, either I've been wrong the whole game, or it's just mer. I am back from my really intense tine with the kids tho, so please don't rush this elo.

[Bellaphant]

Also,.implo, you think the hero wagon was all town? Was it just because it was rushed?

[Bellaphant]

Anyone else got points for me?

I know you gave a sort of rundown of your reads a couple pages ago but I don't feel like I have a good idea of where your head is actually at right now, mostly because that rundown doesn't actually explain who you're feeling like you'd like to lim or not lim today and partially because it feels like you've sort of been playing your game in a way that's not enmeshed in the rest of the game. E.g., what did you think about the bop shot debacle? How are you feeling about like, Hero's waffling or Ari's ultimately going back to Hero?

Who specifically is your preferred lim(s) and why?

Let's start here. Im not sure why you are confused as you are about my reads: I think I've been really clear about who I definitely wouldn't lim, and who's an option. Hero and Ari both held similar places for me: they slid between my reads a bit, but hero was town and Ari had the potential to be scum. With you, I've basically never even thought of sr-ing you before the end of last phase, whereas I've never had mer as 'town'. This is what I'm saying about being wrong, potentially.

[Bellaphant]

As for the rest of the post, I'm just not emeshes for a few reasons: I think I've had different takes than a few people, but I also feel I've been a bit more definite about some things than some people, especially last day phase when it seemed noone had a clue. I'm also jasy not here as much as I'd like, and when I am here my timezone seems to mean noone else is, which I really struggle with. Anyway, back to reading

[Bellaphant]

VOTE: Hero at Heart I've gone back and forth on this a lot but 1143 solidified something for me. If Hero is right that I'm doomed then I don't really want Hero in the last day. If he's town he's a real wild card- sorry, Hero!- and if he's scum he's setting up an end of day where he can vote against me bc of his intense confidence I should have gone down, and he's also indicated a preference for Bella to live who has expressed a lot of doubt against me.

I don't see what you see in 1143. Can you explain this more?

[Bellaphant]

Also, I re-read the last four pages and it's just Ari and hero yelling. I think both of y'all's positions around hero af that poiny to be weird, but the situation was strange.

My two questions are: implo, hero talked a lot ablut your read change on him being smooth: can you tell me about it?

Mer, I have found it impossible to get on your wavelength all game, but I'm now concerned that it's mainly a me issue. I'd really love you to throw some questions at me, about my iso, or anything, so we can chat.

[Bellaphant]

Starting with mer:

Even then, it was 'prob town'. I don't know why but I feel like I'm being really clear about my reads and it's not gelling - my town was implo and drew, with most likely hero. Page 25 and 26 I really felt like I vibed with what you were saying, whereas I haven't /felt/ much from your slot: weirdly the time I got the most feeling from you was the discussion with hero, where as I read it I couldn't see why you had the take you did and it felt a little scummy, although I understand more now, especially as hero saying he'll never vote ari made 3p impossible from your pov

I'm UK time.

[Bellaphant]

Implo, I guess that was my reads list, in scum to not scum. The thing with you and hero is that I read your posts (before the end of last day phase) and just agree with them, so I think they are more likely to come from town. I also didn't have any red flags from you. With Ari, I had a bunch of times I could see a scum agenda. My issue with mer is that I just feel a bit blank about them, but that could mean I'm not seeing a massive agenda.

But then hero often felt like he had an agenda, which was what gave me pause.

[Bellaphant]

Implo, I feel like the ths nk was weirder than the drew nk: I asked earlier int he game why if scum wanted a low info kill, that it wasn't mer, and I think hero responded saying they'd never lim ths after the std flip (or something): what are everyone's thoughts on this?

Also in regards to your 48 hours question, at the time and at the start of day I was a bit like 'wtf is this lim', which I would have expressed, but actually a) I'd probably have gunned for an Ari lim, which would've been equally wrong and probably worse for town, as I don't think hero gets nk, and b) I can now see more of mers point about a 3p lylo. It's a shit lim to get info from, in hindsight.

[Bellaphant]

I'm re&reading your games, mer. Any you think stand out?

[Bellaphant]

If we look at the nks by looking at elos, I feel implo benefits slightly more from this elo, as he knows I don't hard tr mer and my activity dropped off massively, so am an easy push.

Mer would have to convince implo to vote me, which...mid, because again, activity. I hadn't posted that implo was making me feel some sort of way, because I hadn't read before the night phase, so from her pov getting me to vote implo would be a hard sell.

[Bellaphant]

Maybe I'm naive but i don't think hero pushes me in this elo? Liek mer said, hero mer Bella hero votes mer, probably.

Hero implo Bella is a cluster fuck for me.

Hmmm

[Bellaphant]

Wheb you were talking about would I have argued against, my mind went very hypothetical!

I'll read the rest after bedtime, first time taking the kids trick or treating
P-edit oh, trustfall, klick was in that, I did think I recognised your name

[Bellaphant]

A couple of questions for Bella:

I don't think you answered this explicitly- how would you characterize your scum game?
If Implo is the scum here, what do you think your chances are of catching him?

Sorry, if you had asked this before I hadn't registered it. Tbf my scum game has got a lot better recently: it used to be shit, then I didn't roll scum for like a year and then got like 4/6 scum games in a row or something. So, my new scum game is a lot more aggressive than I've been here: I think two good ones would be lost, where I was widely tr until I got an investigate on me, or ....I cant remember the name but rh9 was in it, and maybe Dr drew, and it came down to poe. Basically, I'm trying to say that being a lurksack isn't my typical scum game.

The second question I'm going to push back on a bit: I don't tend to 'catch scum ' and when I do, it's really vibes based. The team mafia game I was in, I caught gimli in their first post to me, voted datisi day one and told my team it was either lld/Ari (so, 2.5 out of three scum day one), but my confidence in my scum reads is often let down by me not always being able to process /why/. I did wonder if the high correlation between me subbing out of scum!datisi games was something to do with this overall sense of wrongnres without being able to explain why. Wats interesting here is that I didn't feel that agenda from their slot at all in the early game.

Also, I tend to town hunt, and especially when those reads are a bit /hot take/-y: I think I felt stronger about Dr drew this game than anyone did.

Most people who know me can often find me as town, too. I think the issue is I often think I'm being super clear when it doesn't come over that way, so people end up feeling more meh about my slot than maybe they should.

[Bellaphant]

Fuck me that was waffly, sorry, I'm tired. Kids loved it though, made me slightly grumpy.

Re skimmed trustfall and the only big difference I could see is that you seemed a bit freer with reads. I remember cqtching up and having to not break the talking about games rule when klick jumped with obv scum

[Bellaphant]

viewtopic.php?t=89664

[Bellaphant]

viewtopic.php?t=89613&hilit=Rh9

[Bellaphant]

Implo, I feel like the ths nk was weirder than the drew nk: I asked earlier int he game why if scum wanted a low info kill, that it wasn't mer, and I think hero responded saying they'd never lim ths after the std flip (or something): what are everyone's thoughts on this?

Is the implication here that you think THS may have been a low-info kill by Merlyn because she wanted a low-info kill and couldn't shoot herself?

Iirc I felt pretty good about THS town but I don't really remember it being about his interactions with STD in a way that would mean to never lim him after the STD flip. But yeah, it's possible that my advocacy for THS as town made scum think THS wasn't gonna die this game so that it was a safe low-info kill or something.

Also in regards to your 48 hours question, at the time and at the start of day I was a bit like 'wtf is this lim', which I would have expressed, but actually a) I'd probably have gunned for an Ari lim, which would've been equally wrong and probably worse for town, as I don't think hero gets nk, and b) I can now see more of mers point about a 3p lylo. It's a shit lim to get info from, in hindsight.

I feel like any 3p eLo where everyone is a candidate for scum is always going to feel sort of starved for info. I think if Ari hadn't been killed I would feel really bad about the possibility of misreading her in particular in either direction just because of how kind of fraught the game has been.

I am inclined to believe that this is at least not being made up wholecloth.

If we look at the nks by looking at elos, I feel implo benefits slightly more from this elo, as he knows I don't hard tr mer and my activity dropped off massively, so am an easy push.

Mer would have to convince implo to vote me, which...mid, because again, activity. I hadn't posted that implo was making me feel some sort of way, because I hadn't read before the night phase, so from her pov getting me to vote implo would be a hard sell.

From my point of view (really a neutral point of view), if Merlyn is scum then killing Ari makes sense from her pov because I was indicating a lot of suspicion of you near the end of yesterday. If you're scum, maybe you'd have shot me for that reason? Or well, the reasons not to shoot me would be for wifom value or if you thought you could lim me. I think Ari was not very vocal about specific reads other than Hero yesterday? The Ari kill is definitely interesting especially with you opening the day saying you were planning to push her

To the first bit, yea but also no? I guess i was saying I couldn't see why mer wasn't shot there but then the logical progression could well be coz she couldn't shoot herself, as you said.

The Ari stuff I feel. You are right about RL being the reason I'm not here, but I'm not gonna lie and say it wasn't a bit because I find fraught threads really difficult and both Ari and hero were being a /lot/ at times.

I don't massively agree with the statement 'all 3 are good scum candidates', because like I said, until day end you were hard town for me, so....I don't really know why you said this? It feels a bit contrived, same as 'from a neutral point of view'. Why do you think we are all 'good scum candidates '?

[Bellaphant]

Implo, we were in pyp together last year, and there were two whole days where people were desperate to lim mathblade for....being mathblade. I kept telling people he was town, and he was! Also, by the last day, I'd said I could give reasons to tr everyone but the two last scum. The tr thing is more indicative of my town game, the aggression in my scum game comes more from pushing scum reads and 'solving': I sometimes joke that my scum game looks townier than my town game, as with scum I feel more ....agenda based.

[Bellaphant]

I'm trying to work out why ths was nked. Implo is saying that a few slots hard tr him, I didn't really see that at the time and just assumed it was a low info kill, where my q was why wasn't it you at that point, as you felt lower info to me. But if ths was more widely tr, then it makes more sense so looks less damning for you (the flip side of what Implo is actually saying to me, I guess)

[Bellaphant]

I guess my overarching point was all the nks feel weird, so does it point to it benefiting anyone? Like, it clearly makes sense from someone's pov (scum)

[Bellaphant]

"I think the best case I can make me for as town is that I don't know how I vote Hero yesterday as scum" can we talk about this? I think getting rid of a loud voice is always helpful for scum?

P-edit, that's what I've been saying? Why do you think he was nked? Like, I don't even think it was to frame me, because i knew that two scum weren't in my pool of four people making shit choices, and hero has basically town cased then to me...

[Bellaphant]

Him never voting you would be a great reason to have him at the end though?you'd be unlimable?!

[Bellaphant]

Also, could you expand on this 'I also don't think my actions today have been consistent with someone who needs to convince Implo you're scum.'

I think I understand but I want to respond once I do

[Bellaphant]

I do feel like implos sr of me and hero did evolve fairly fast

[Bellaphant]

Oh yeah, sorry. Work is shit today. Thought I'd caught you out, actually just have 0 comprehension

Ok, fair.

[Bellaphant]

Mood

[Bellaphant]

If I don't hammer, I'm clear?

[Bellaphant]

This is me not being scum.

[Bellaphant]

I want to trust you, btw

[Bellaphant]

Thsts what scum would say!

If you were, in trying to work out if what you just did would have any benefits for you, and like ...yeah, if you like pyschicly knew how much I liked team work, but in real terms, you just reduced Implos options to...you.

[Bellaphant]

In around, I just feel a bit stuck! When you said your read change on me was slow, I mean it felt like it was one thing and then suddenly a different thing, so maybe you could explain that a bit more?

[Bellaphant]

Also, not to be a dick, but where's your evidence that mer is this good at scum/would pull this?

[Bellaphant]

HURT: merlyn
HEAL: implo

i saw that i have 1 notification from mala and i thought it was going to be her responding to the 1 question i asked her, but no it wasn't. yes i'm complaining for the sake of it.

anyway uhh. merlyn i'm starting to like less after someone pointed out that she hasn't really had that many reads (oh it was implo pog) and after reading that i can easily see her slot playing in a sort of quiet townie don't rock the boat scum play. implo feels townie. i liked the drew read and the merlyn read was a good catch. also i do have Thoughts on the drew/implo thing but considering the post right above me, i comment later

@ari, if you had to pick a coalition to form right now, what would it be?

also uh i will be pretty busy and confined to phoneposting for most of the day. this will likely not impact much but on the off chance it does i'm putting it out there. ok cool.

.can someone who knows more about the coalition meta discuss this unvote?

[Bellaphant]

Oh god, the wifom in this post.

Fuck, datisi is good

[Bellaphant]

Sorry, I'm re-reading..I'm actually reading people in iso with datisi, just done implo and datisi. What's weird is that datisi doesn't mention many people that much: implo clearly does talk about his read of datisi a lot, so mer's take that this didn't happen is weird.

Sorry, I will vote before deadline, I felt fairly certain yesterday and now am a bit confused again. I can hear the dead thread shouting at me.

[Bellaphant]

Tbf, I don't massively feel like you tried to solve me much? Actually, can you talk about your read on me?

[Bellaphant]

No,I know, sorry, worded badly. I can see what you've done!

I meant before..I don't know if we both just filled each other as 'meh, maybe scum?' or something else?

[Bellaphant]

Sorry, this is a bit gut versus head. I re read both your isos (merlyn, kinda hate you for making me do all this! ) and I just feel like I did at the start. I think you are both really strong scum players.

[Bellaphant]

Like, I'm back to either implo is playing a fantastic but slightly agenda driven scum game, or mer is playing a really good scum but with some flaws. Mer looks snipy and survivalist at times, implo looks agenda focused and maube their reads are too convenient but mer keeps hers closee to er chest

[Bellaphant]

VOTE: merlyn

I am sorry if wrong

[Bellaphant]

Sorry all, I massively over thought this. I was so tempted to slap the hammer down after merlyn voted, and then I tied myself in a knot. I think aot of the issue is, implo 100% spent the first half of the game posting takes that I totally agreed with: I think the only other person who's done that and fooled me so well is lukewarm.

I need to stop thinking everyone will think like me!