Open 556: Fire and Ice (Over)

[Moonlight]

Mmm, lots of familiar faces.

I want to vote Not_Mafia already and we haven't even started. D:

[Moonlight]

@Boro: You're confident you can read me easily? I hope you're right then.

But seriously, I don't like how NM asked "fire or ice", scum is scum. I

could

see him doing it on purpose to get a discussion going and I assume that votes won't count yet, sooo... yeah.

*twiddles his thumbs*

[Moonlight]

But seriously, I don't like how NM asked "fire or ice", scum is scum. I

could

see him doing it on purpose to get a discussion going and I assume that votes won't count yet, sooo... yeah.

Like in games with an SK where a big scumtell is worrying mostly about the SK?

Very similar to that, yeah.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it but it's a start.

[Moonlight]

I wouldn't be surprised if Moonlight is scum again

And who

would

you be surprised about and why?

[Moonlight]

Yay, I finally get to play with mastin.

I approve of this wagon and I don't understand why Jasmine is wary of it, some explanation would be cool.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

[Moonlight]

Now I'm wondering if your comment on mastin was distancing. Why wouldn't you be happy if she's scum?

[Moonlight]

I want to get a taste of how she plays as either alignment. Trouble's fine with me.

Besides, you know I don't consider experience something special by itself. In 1477, you tried to start a wagon on Nacho, which is not what you're trying to do with mastin.

I like how you've reacted to a shot in the dark though~

[Moonlight]

You seem to be trying way too hard to find scumtells in RVS

Is that a bad thing though? You either care about which part of the Mafia Tricks is in or you deliberately said something that would get the heat on yourself and want to see reactions.

This is my reaction.

[Moonlight]

If it was a joke, just treat your wagon as the punchline.

[Moonlight]

We just played a game with him as scum. You'll know if and when he's scum.

In that game I was part of an informed minority. Is the situation the same here?

[Moonlight]

I'd like to believe so, but this isn't the game where I'll find that out.

[Moonlight]

@Tricks: I agree with your scumreads and I can't believe that people are calling this a random voting stage when there's a 4-vote wagon.

@Not_Mafia: Your question could have easily been phrased "Are you scum?". It wasn't, which shows that you're looking at scum as two teams of scum instead of just scum. The way I see it, either you're interested in one team more than the other, or you're a Townie who wanted to give that impression to get us out of RVS ASAP.

[Moonlight]

Let's say I am scum. Why would I phrase my question that way, if Trickster is scum then I'd either know which scum he is, if he was my partner, or if he wasn't, which scum team he would have to be on if he was scum.

Your question answers itself by showing the defense that is implied just by the phrasing of your question to Tricks. It implies "Tricks, I don't know which scum team you're on if you're scum because I'm not scum". The phrasing is superfluous and the fact that you're reacting to this can be for various reasons, towny or not.

In any case, thank you for at least getting us out of the RVS. >_>

[Moonlight]

Interesting posts by Pasch and Baezu. I agree with the former on everything except for barking up the wrong tree; that's not how I see it. I agree that it's a reachy case, I just don't see that as something that can't be used. I approve of the tman vote though.

As for Baezu, I think Tricks gets a bit more confident when he believes I'm Town. We've noticed we work off each other pretty well.

PEdit: Darn, there's something new every time I click submit. I guess I'll just post and be done with it. xD

[Moonlight]

Yes. It's quite nice to think you're town again...

But what does this mean?

he believes I'm Town.

It means what it says. Past experience shows me you get more confident when you believe I'm Town.

Do you think it means something else, or are you wondering how I'm reading you?

[Moonlight]

Let's see. If I had said instead "when I'm Town", it would have been either an effort to sell I'm Town when I'm not, or honesty. Now that I said "when you believe I'm Town", it either implies that it's something you can't know or... nope, that's about it.

[Moonlight]

Hmm, there's probably little meat left in the NM wagon after Pasch's defense. I'm still not very convinced the "fire or scum" question meant nothing at all, but I guess I can just keep an eye out for NM.

I'm just as interested in tman's apathy as Pasch and Tricks, so let me aid the cause.

VOTE: tman

[Moonlight]

Wait, why does this apply to Tricks and not me? I'm the one who pointed out first, so I don't understand why you're not after me if you think it's scummy. o_O

[Moonlight]

I don't agree that either of those are scumtells, but okay.

[url=http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=38643]Mewbie 1477[/post] was the first game for both and him. We were both Town, I gave the first early read list and we worked with each other a lot.

[Moonlight]

EBWOP: Mewbie 1477

[Moonlight]

Time for me to share my early reads. In the order they have posted:

NM puzzles me. He cast a random vote on mastin and ignored his wagon for a while, until he didn't. His vote on me is a lot like Boro's on Tricks, scumreading someone for trying too hard to get things going.

Zeph hasn't caught up, so no read.

Tricks gives me the same feeling he gave me in our first game. I have seen him play scum, but never early, only after replacing in. So far this seems very much like his Town play.

Boro seems to consider reachy cases a scumtell and that's something I don't agree with, but that tells me nothing about his alignment.

tman's posts rub me the wrong way. His vote on NM seemed to be random, so he didn't really make anything of the pregame posts. After noticing the wagon, he showed apathy, which I can't say I appreciate.

midget is... strange. I've only played one game with him and it was our first, so his playstyle might have developed, but he seems much bolder and confident than I remember. Not sure what that means, but it's noteworthy.

Jasmine doesn't like wagons and I want to know why before I decide what to make of her.

Pasch's posts appeal to me, and even though I disagree with his viewpoint on reachy cases I can understand it. His defense of NM makes me townread him, because I don't see any scum motivation for him to disapprove of the wagon... unless those two are scum together. =P

Baezu seems to rely on meta and to dislike buddying, which I don't know what to make of.

4 Heads is going to be a headache (ba dum tsh!). I hate when the heads disagree like that.

To sum up: townread on Tricks and Pasch, scumread on tman, null on everyone else but I'm paying NM, midget and Jasmine extra attention.

[Moonlight]

At least I appreciate that the heads are making it easy to tell who is thinking what, thank you. =)

[Moonlight]

Tricks gives me the same feeling he gave me in our first game. I have seen him play scum, but never early, only after replacing in. So far this seems very much like his Town play.

What do you think of him without the influence of past games?

Same thing I did the first time I played with him; I want to townread him, and at the same time I'm a bit cautious because it's strange to develop a proper read that early on someone.

I spent that first game in a cycle of "Tricks can't be scum" and "Wait, this is so unlike him, something's up". I trusted him enough to work with him, but not enough to ever stop re-examining my read (which always ended with me finding many more things I liked than things I disliked).

And from his posts it seems the feeling is mutual.

I agree with his opinion on every game being different and his question for NM.

[Moonlight]

Anyone that is scumreading Tricks at this point is either confusing "wanting a wagon on someone" with "wanting someone lynched", or they see something I don't. =/

I'd also like to add that general tells in this setup are particularly dangerous. For example, scumhunting is generally considered a pro-Town move, but in

this

setup the scum also need to scumhunt on the side. Possibly not from the get-go, but eventually.

[Moonlight]

Tman's not liking the Not_Mafia wagon but keeping his vote there is really annoying, and I do not like his most recent post, specifically his reasoning for keeping his vote on N_M. If you do not think someone is suspicious, then there is no need to keep your vote on them. There's no rule saying you have to have a vote on someone at all times. You simply could've unvoted and left it at that.

I'll play devil's advocate.

Not using one's vote is bad from my point of view. When I unvote, it's very temporary, I always want to be voting for someone because it's the one thing I cannot be lying about.[/quote]

The_Ascended makes a good post, but I can see this post coming from scum.

Can you expand on that thought? I have them as a townread at the moment, show me where you see possible scum motivation.

[Moonlight]

@Tricks:

5) No quoting any private communication or PMs, including your role PM. No using invisible text,

spoiler tags

, or encryption codes. Violation of this rule will result in a modkill.

Bolded the important part.

[Moonlight]

You've only used them to hide quotes, so I don't think it's something you should get modkilled for.

Not needing a majority for a lynch to happen is also somewhat scum-friendly in my book, but rules are rules. =/

[Moonlight]

I can't decide if NM is just curious or he has a scum-motivated interest to know that and if he would be brazen enough to ask that question when he could just PM the mod. >_< I'm going to try to find games of him as scum.

[Moonlight]

That LyLo scenario wasn't something I was considering, that's a legit question then. =X

But I'll take you up on your offer of that game if it's not much trouble.

[Moonlight]

Time for me to share my early reads. In the order they have posted:

NM puzzles me. He cast a random vote on mastin and ignored his wagon for a while, until he didn't. His vote on me is a lot like Boro's on Tricks, scumreading someone for trying too hard to get things going.

Zeph hasn't caught up, so no read.

Tricks gives me the same feeling he gave me in our first game. I have seen him play scum, but never early, only after replacing in. So far this seems very much like his Town play.

Boro seems to consider reachy cases a scumtell and that's something I don't agree with, but that tells me nothing about his alignment.

tman's posts rub me the wrong way. His vote on NM seemed to be random, so he didn't really make anything of the pregame posts. After noticing the wagon, he showed apathy, which I can't say I appreciate.

midget is... strange. I've only played one game with him and it was our first, so his playstyle might have developed, but he seems much bolder and confident than I remember. Not sure what that means, but it's noteworthy.

Jasmine doesn't like wagons and I want to know why before I decide what to make of her.

Pasch's posts appeal to me, and even though I disagree with his viewpoint on reachy cases I can understand it. His defense of NM makes me townread him, because I don't see any scum motivation for him to disapprove of the wagon... unless those two are scum together. =P

Baezu seems to rely on meta and to dislike buddying, which I don't know what to make of.

4 Heads is going to be a headache (ba dum tsh!). I hate when the heads disagree like that.

To sum up: townread on Tricks and Pasch, scumread on tman, null on everyone else but I'm paying NM, midget and Jasmine extra attention.

I don't like the way you keep defending tricks. You guys seem to have some unwritten communication going on that's setting off alarm bells. Either you're mafia together or one of you is "tricking" the other and you know my opinion on which of you it is

It happened on the very first game we played in and it has been happening ever since. We have different styles and they seem to compliment each other when we're Town together, so why wouldn't I be trying to work with him when I'm townreading him?

Us being scum together is an interesting assumption and I want to see who is bold enough to go after it. *beckons with his finger*

[Moonlight]

Slainte = Baezu, just thought I'd save people the trouble of looking up the heads of that hydra.

I am not ruling out that Tricks could be emulating his Town meta to a T just for the sake of earning my townread, I just don't believe that at the moment. I'm paying more attention to his interaction with

others

and those look genuine from where I'm standing.

[Moonlight]

@NM:

Finglove's V/LA, so why did you go after him? It's unlikely he'll give you a reaction. =/

[Moonlight]

I have mixed feelings about going after lurkers. The nature of the setup and the plurality lynch rule give scum even more reason to not want to stand out, but at the same time it's something scum might use and call it "scumhunting". >_>

Baezu's train of thought is something that crossed my mind though (scum not being in the active players at the moment), so I want to see what she does about it.

[Moonlight]

Boro, can you please explain why using "something rubbish" is a scumtell? Walk me through what's going through your head when you encounter something like that.

If, for example, I vote you now and my provided reasoning is that football/soccer avatars are only used by scum, does that mean I'm scum?

[Moonlight]

Boro, can you please explain why using "something rubbish" is a scumtell? Walk me through what's going through your head when you encounter something like that.

If, for example, I vote you now and my provided reasoning is that football/soccer avatars are only used by scum, does that mean I'm scum?

well yeah?

Am I scum then? Make your case on me.

VOTE: BoroPhil

[Moonlight]

Question for Tricks: does Boro's play this game remind you of the same play it reminds me? It's almost like history repeating itself in a way.

To everyone else: Why is building a case based on bad reasoning a scumtell? Are you scumhunting or are you just after players whose play you disagree with? Are you just hoping that those players just happen to be scum?

You don't always catch scum for the right reasons.

[Moonlight]

And now acknowledging they were in fact building a case.

Also Moonlight, please do not ask blatantly leading questions to push the narrative that you want

I'm more interested in why you want me to stop. Why does my issue with Boro concern you? Are you threatened by it?

[Moonlight]

You

really

don't know me, do you? I keep reexamining my reads. They're never solid. Tricks is no exception, there

will

be moments when I'll ask myself if he's scum. You are treating me as if I'm going to townread him for the duration of the game.

I perceive that as a threat to you *points at NM and Boro*.

PEdit: Not sure how I misattributed that, it was by NM and I wanted to reply to him, not sure what happened there.

[Moonlight]

And no, I want Tricks' honest opinion and he knows I do.

This is me thinking I've hit gold out of complete coincidence. I want to know if he reads the situation the same way, because for now I believe he's on my team.

[Moonlight]

If I hadn't phrased my question that way, he might not have known what I'm yammering about. I'm refering to a very specific play in a very specific game.

I could have just said "Does this remind of you what it reminds of me", but I like to be more direct than that.

And because I like to be direct, I find it interesting how you and Boro are in tune and yet you haven't exchanged a word with each other and aren't trying to establish a read on each other.

[Moonlight]

EBWOP: remove the two "of"s in that question. >_>

[Moonlight]

And what about everyone else? What are your reads on every other player? It's not just me, Tricks and Boro playing, and yet I see something of an obsession with Tricks going on.

[Moonlight]

Jasmine's entire ISO is 2 posts, 29 and 117. How are you getting a read at all on her, why is the fear of wagons a tell?

And explain why you have an issue with me defending Tricks, but not with Boro defending you by attacking Tricks' case on you.

[Moonlight]

Question for Tricks: does Boro's play this game remind you of the same play it reminds me? It's almost like history repeating itself in a way.

I believe it does. We are thinking of the same player, are we not?

I just want to say I think it's very interesting his play changed from last game to this...

Or did it really change? I don't know.

I certainly hope this one doesn't end in him getting reported, though. Maybe we should make him read the game? You know, the whole thing about knowing history so you don't repeat it?

I think NM is.. Interesting. Very interesting. For defending him so blatantly.

Yup, we are.

As for whether it changed, I think so. In the previous game he got aggressive with legit reasoning. Here he is making a mountain out of a molehill, the irony being that he seems to believe that about you while considering it a scumtell.

I believe Boro is smarter than actually believing that a vote can only mean a desire to lynch someone, and I'm toying with the idea that he saw you as a threat or mislynch fodder.

@Moonlight I liked Yuriko's entry. And can you quote where you see me having an issue with you defending Trickster, I'm not completely sure what you mean there.

You never said you did, but that's the vibe I've been getting since 194. I could be wrong and I'm not afraid to take that chance.

[Moonlight]

Yup, we are.

As for whether it changed, I think so. In the previous game he got aggressive with legit reasoning. Here he is making a mountain out of a molehill, the irony being that he seems to believe that about you while considering it a scumtell.

I believe Boro is smarter than actually believing that a vote can only mean a desire to lynch someone, and I'm toying with the idea that he saw you as a threat or mislynch fodder.

I don't know, but I don't see how it can be town motivated. Assuming he's scum, how do you read NM?

I don't know what to make of NM. He seems to understand my point of view now at least, but I'm perplexed as to why this wasn't obvious to him before.

Should we pretend that buddying only happens by scum or something? It won't make it true, people are social animals and believe it or not, when two people townread each other, it's only natural for them to try to work together. >_<

And Trickster that doesn't change the fact that you misrepped his case

Exactly! Finally, someone is seeing the light.

Also four heads is acting scummy as fuck and veiling it as a 4 person hydra

Explain how they're scummy. I've liked their posts a lot and I appreciate that they present their thoughts in that form.

PEdit: Well, looks like Baezu won't be someone anyone can work with then. =/

[Moonlight]

Moon if I was trickster and I have played games with you where we were buddies as townies and I rolled scum this game I would continue playing the same way with you so that you wouldn't suspect anything. Doesn't this seem super plausible and likely?

I said exactly that in 144.

Why the fuck is everyone treating me as if I'm naive? Holy shit.

[Moonlight]

Yes! I read your game that you referenced me to where you and moon were VTs. You started that game with an RQS as well. And say what you will, PEOPLE DONT CHANGE. At least not so quickly. I've lived on this planet for 36 years and there's one thing I've learned people just don't change that quickly.

I'm living proof that you're wrong.

There are things that don't change, sure. Certain things do and they can make a world of difference.

That game you're referring to, I felt like a completely different player by the end of it when comparing myself to how I was when I started it. I was witnessing a change I couldn't even understand the reason behind, so don't tell me that people don't change in Mafia. >_>

[Moonlight]

@Tricks: I agree, and the fact that you townread her attack makes me more confident about my read on you.

I'll explain for those who have trouble understanding how I think.

In this setup, the one good thing for Town is that scum do

not

have that much information. Baezu is going to look bad if Tricks flips Town at any point, whereas if she was scum she wouldn't even know his alignment unless she was scum with him.

Which leads to the question: "Why are you after Boro (and to a degree NM), then? Wouldn't they look bad?". Yeah, but Boro's timing looks strange.

His 96 came after NM had reacted to the wagon. In 98, he says Tricks has been buddying me, while ignoring that he indirectly buddied NM himself with that vote. He also called misrep on something that looks like a misunderstanding and has been continually reminding us that the case on NM is rubbish.

I see a strange association there and I might be reading too much into it, but it's at least something worth pressing on in my opinion.

[Moonlight]

Sure, let's fucking lynch anyone we don't like instead of lynching who we believe is more likely to flip scum.

First Boro sees "scumminess" in things he doesn't like, now Zeph. I'm starting to doubt my read on Boro as a result, because I didn't want to think of the possibility that a Townie would want to lynch someone just out of dislike, but I guess I have to consider it unless both Boro and Zeph are scum.

What do I even do in this situation... I'm totally against policy lynches but this is starting to get insane.

I'll sleep on it, but not before begging any Townie that reads this to carefully reconsider what separates Town and scum. Forget tells, forget what you think you know, break the game down to its very core and understand. I don't give a shit if you read this as me using AtE to earn towncred and whatnot, that's fine. Just don't throw the game, please.

[Moonlight]

Are you saying I'm voting for Tricky because I don't like him, rather than because I think he is scummy?

I am saying that when you encounter a play you don't like or don't understand, you make no effort to try to look at it from a Town perspective, you simply toss it in a scum pile.

This is dangerous in my opinion, because you're unlikely to work with anyone you disagree with, and I need players that disagree with me.

Basically, I don't find you necessarily scummy, I just find your approach very anti-Town and I lack a proper scum read, so I'm waiting to form one on you.

You're asking how votes can be used in other ways. Haven't you ever thought of voting someone just to get a read on his reaction?

[Moonlight]

@Tricks:

Do you have a townread on Zeph? I don't understand why you're not letting him get into the spotlight more.

[Moonlight]

@MOD:

We haven't had a single votecount yet. Excuse me for being annoyed, but I'd have appreciated if you let us know if you're V/LA on weekends or something.

[Moonlight]

so you don't find me scummy, but you are voting for me? how is that IN ANY WAY pro-town?

I don't find anyone particularly scummy right now. If I follow your logic, I shouldn't be voting, but then I wouldn't be using the one thing everyone else can trust my slot about.

you'll find I'm pretty straight up. If I vote for someone, it's because they are scummy. I don't mess around and play games.

I understand that, but just because

you

don't play such games it doesn't mean that anyone else who does is scum. That's my whole point.

I haven't posted my reads for a while, they keep changing mostly due to how chaotic the situation is at the moment.

I'm still townreading Tricks, though his defense of Zeph got me curious and thinking that

if

he is scum, Zeph is a probable buddy.

The_Ascended haven't posted for a while, but I'm still townreading them.

I like 4 Heads a lot and I don't understand why they're frustrating to some players. Even when they disagree they present their thoughts in a manner that looks natural for 4 players in 1 slot. Scumreading them because one believes they're fabricating their disputes, I could understand, but I still townread them.

I'm also inclined to townread Baezu for how boldly she said she'd park her vote on Tricks.

That's 4 slots I'm townreading, leaving me with 7 players that I believe have the 4 scum in them. As long as I can work with either of my townreads, I'm confident we can lynch scum today.

[Moonlight]

I find your avoidance to confront any side in what you perceive as random accusations... disturbing.

What are your reads aside from scumreading 4H?

[Moonlight]

(1) Not_Mafia - Finglove
(0) randomidget -
(0) The_Ascended -
(0) idk -
(0) YurikoJasmine -
(0) Moonlight -
(2) Tr1ckster - BoroPhil, Baezu
(2) 4 Heads of Insanity - randomidget, tman2nd
(1) tman2nd - idk
(3) Finglove - YurikoJasmine, Tr1ckster, Not_Mafia
(0) Baezu -
(1) BoroPhil - Moonlight
(1) Zephyrus - 4 Heads of Insanity
(2) Not voting - The_Ascended, Zephyrus

I believe this is correct, I'm sorry if I've miscounted anywhere.

@Tricks and NM: Why have you parked your vote on someone who is V/LA? -_- Jasmine too, but she's inactive, so she might have an excuse.

[Moonlight]

Tricks just went after someone I was considering voting and I made that somewhat obvious with 277. There's such a fine line between minds thinking alike and him leading me on.

I like Baezu's post, but I don't understand why NM and Boro are an unlikely pair. Can you explain that?

As for Boro's and Zeph's opening about me, I'm not reading too much into it. If it was some other player, I'd be wondering if one of them is distancing from his buddy, but I know the answer to that.

I'm going to indulge Tricks for now and ignore the paranoia. RM leaves much to be desired.

VOTE: randomidget

[Moonlight]

@Zeph: If I was scumreading one of them, I'd see them as a decently likely team. Problem is, I'm not, and at the same time I'd be wondering if you pointed that out to clear your association with Tricks.

Good grief. >_<

[Moonlight]

A few people need to stop theorying scumteams so early, it just gets conf bias muddying your reads. It's d1, just lynch the scummiest player.

Who would that be in your opinion? The one you're voting for? I find it hard to scumread him based on just two posts, sorry.

[Moonlight]

I still want Baezu to explain why Boro and NM aren't scum together, Boro and Zeph I can understand. Also, if you're fine voting the 4 you mentioned, why did you avoid the midget wagon?

[Moonlight]

And your reasoning is? Please tell me you've got something better than the "case" he made on you.

[Moonlight]

This game is getting more infuriating with every post

Fixed that for you.

@NM: You know, I love Town blocks. I do. Before I even knew what the term was, I caught myself having the instinct to form one from my very first game on this site.

And here's where my problem is with this game: one isn't forming on its own. There are too many forces working against each other. Too many different opinions from too many players. Chaos.

And nothing is being done to rectify that. I want to do something about it, but I honestly don't know what can be done. -_-

[Moonlight]

I'll aid that cause then.

VOTE: Zephyrus

@tman: What's your reasoning behind your vote? I don't like... all of Boro's play and I find it anti-Town, but when I ask myself if that makes him scum, I hesitate.

[Moonlight]

Sorry to idk for mixing him up with tman in my previous post.. =X

Town should, ideally, be making reasonable cases that fit the facts. If one must distort the facts or rely on fallacies to make a case, then one is likely not correct or genuinely trying to be. Town should actively be avoiding making bad cases, and since scum's cases are necessarily false, their cases should be distinguishable. This is, of course, ideally, rather than practically. I don't have a good rule of thumb for the practical reality, only for how I think the game ought to be played.

You don't always catch scum for the right reasons, but when you employ the wrong reasons, you catch (mislynch) town a lot.

That ideal scenario relies on people being not just reasonable, but perfectly logical, which is why practice differs in my opinion. I get called reasonable a lot and I can be, but I'd never call myself logical.

For example, in my last game I aided in catching scum by scumreading someone over something that made no sense to her; I judged that certain elements of her play wouldn't come from Town-her, despite never having played with her before. That is logically fallacious and I'm aware of it, and even now I still believe that Town-her would have played differently.

I'm honestly inclined to just sheep Moonlight. He seems to be the most level-headed and clearly pro-town. But I'll wait until Mastin gets back tomorrow and can share her thoughts.

I'm relieved you don't follow that inclination. Even if I was confTown it still wouldn't mean I'm right (and boy do I waffle), so I can never recommend sheeping me.

I voted zeph bc I feel he has the most to answer for of the four.

Please, you don't have any questions for me by you would like answers. Try a little harder before you jump on a wagon scum.

If she is scum, why aren't you voting her? And why did you speculate on a Tricks & Baezu team when you believe that Tricks is the most Town?

[Moonlight]

It was a speculation that Baezu did a 180 when her original FOS was trick. I asked a question on what everyone else thought in that same statement.

I haven't voted for Baezu because I see no reason in voting her because she voted me.

You called her scum, so I thought you were scumreading her. If you believe she is scum, why does her vote matter?

@Tricks: I know what you mean. I disagree with every one of his scumreads and I'm not sure why I refrain from scumreading him. I predict he will be one of the last players I'll have a good read on, I just don't get him. =/ I agree with you that his play is anti-Town, but that's probably not the way he sees it.

Any change in your read on Zeph? I don't like how he avoids to vote someone he just called scum.

PEdit: Did Boro townslip? Scum don't know who is Town in this setup.

[Moonlight]

I really don't see how I'm being anti-town? I seem to be the only one prepared to challenge Tricky, whereas the rest of you are happy to go along with his bullshit.

If that is anti-town, so be it.

"The rest of you". That is my problem with your play. You don't group yourself with "the rest of us". It's you vs the world. If you're Town, you're not alone, there are 8 players that share your alignment, so why are you ignoring them? Why do you assume that everyone else is wrong about Tricks? Why can't you be wrong?

I see Town vs Town in you and Tricks, mostly because I believe you townslipped there and because I see a subtle difference between the play Tricks refers to and your play in this game.

I believe you were scumreading Tricks in Baezu's game before he claimed. Am I wrong?

@Tricks: Hanzo was looking for the easy lynch with you. Boro is not doing that, there are juicier targets right now *points at Zeph*, and yet he continues to go after you.

PEdit: Zeph, why the fuck do you care about how you look? o_o

[Moonlight]

@Boro: I do not believe in the existence of objectivity.

@NM: I don't care if you're tired.

@Zeph: No, I do not. And you're scumreading me? After having seen my previous game? It's on.

@Tricks: If you're townreading me, please ignore Boro for now. We'll sort him out later. Zeph has just fucked up big time the way I see it.

[Moonlight]

Not going to happen now. And that was a low blow.

@Boro: I promise you that if Zeph flips scum, I'm seriously going to consider Tricks as a probable buddy of his. And I am scumreading Zeph right now.

@Tricks: Thank you. :3

[Moonlight]

For the sake of argument, assume I'm Town when you read this post, even if you're scumreading me. I want you to see what I see.

In 141, Zeph examines the possibility of a team of me and Tricks. (If he is scum, his lack of voting there suggests distancing, and I know I'm Town.)

In 246, he defends Tricks without providing reasoning behind his read and with his next post he goes after a hydra... for being a hydra.

In 284, he wonders if Baezu is scum with Tricks, but with his next post he townreads Tricks AGAIN without reasoning.

The way I see it, Zeph is scum and his flip will say a lot about Tricks.

[Moonlight]

That would be fucking brilliant and I'm sorry to disappoint you. I

wish

this was my scum game instead of the previous disaster.

[Moonlight]

You've got nothing to worry about if you're Town, Tricks. I said I'd consider the possibility much more seriously, I won't quicklynch you or anything.

@NM: I'm counting 5 votes by 4 Heads, Baezu, me, Tricks and you. That's L-2.

[Moonlight]

As we wait, I want Zeph to explain his scumread on me. I'm scum for joining his wagon seems to be the reasoning behind it and I find it really bothersome that he has ignored the parts of my play that did

not

involve him.

So Zeph, if I am scum, why aren't you doing anything to show the Town that I'm leading them on? Show them where exactly I've shown scum motivation. You're not doing it, are you? You just said "that mislynch is going to happen". Yeah, it's unlikely to be a mislynch because I refuse to believe you'd go down without fighting. You did fight in the previous game, but here you've just been enjoying the chaos.

[Moonlight]

After going through the pages, I'm getting to the conclusion that Tricks is very unlikely to be scum because of 230 alone. He probably slipped there and didn't mean to roleclaim, whereas as scum he'd be careful to leave his options open for a Doctor counterclaim if he makes it to LyLo.

I'm pointing the claim out because I assume scum aren't blind.

I still think Zeph is scum despite that. He probably wanted to keep Tricks away from him and got aggressive with Baezu when Tricks' attention was off him because he felt unthreatened. As soon as the heat got on him, he got strangely quiet instead of going after his scumreads.

Just thinking out loud, I'm not trying to make a point.

[Moonlight]

I'm still waiting for idk to provide reasoning behind his vote for Boro and tman to post his read on 4H.

And I'm also asking anyone not on the Zephyrus wagon to provide any thoughts they feel like sharing about it.

[Moonlight]

Still L-2, they were already voting Zeph. And it was Chrimi who cast that vote in 266, how on earth did they forget? o_O

Tricks is still Town regardless of anyone's flip unless someone points out where I'm wrong in 369.

[Moonlight]

Non onNONONO NO TOWN BLOCKS

Town blocks = Scum gets to act towny, hide with townies, push townie lynches and act like "

Well it was the town block's lynch.

" and get away with whatever the fuck they want.

HELL NO TOWNBLOCKS

Ummm... maybe I have misunderstood the concept. I thought a townblock is a group of players that are townreading each other and work together, not a group of players who won't re-evaluate their townreads on each other for the rest of the game.

As an example, I hopped on the Zephyrus wagon because I was townreading Baezu and lacked a read on him, but I am fully responsible for that vote, not Baezu. My scumread on him formed from his reaction to his wagon and me noticing things I didn't like afterwards.

Suppose we lynch Zeph and he flips scum. Does that mean Baezu is clear? Nope, it just makes it very hard for me to scumread her, but the thought of being wrong about my townread on her (and every read on every player for that matter) is always in my head.

I hope that clarifies what I mean when I use that term.

[Moonlight]

I never saw your explanation for voting me. You hop on Baezu wagon when she had no solid explanation except for the fact that I voted 4 heads for the sole reason of being a hydra when in fact Boro did the same thing. You're are the least worry I have for scum right now since it's only a minor read. The real read is Baezu and here's my case:

Read 338 again and NM's 348, then also take a look at 352. Did you miss those posts?

But let's see why your case against Baezu is not a case.

I voted zeph bc I feel he has the most to answer for of the four.

Answer for that? I voted him because I don't like Hydras. Trick later convince me to withdraw my vote and I agree, I overstep by voting for the sole reason of a person being a hydra and thats not fair for anyone.

Nothing in that tells me why Baezu is scum. Moving on.

Tricks hasn't tried to pull a gambit yet therefore he must be scum

VOTE: tr1ckster

She reads too much into her past games that she modded to played with for that individual. (Opening vote/post)

That makes her play a bad one, but you don't explain why it's more likely to come from scum than Town. Next.

This actually helps prove my point. What happened to your RQS? If you're town you wouldn't mind garnering that attention but as scum, you prob want to maintain a lower profile

Couple of more posts talking about past games and where Trickster doesn't look like he is town because of the gambit RQS he pulled in a previous game

^ Check above.

I'm willing to let the trick thing rest for now but IGMEOY still

UNVOTE: tr1ckster

Unvotes Trick out of the blue

Inconsistency is not a scumtell. Period. Next.

And Trickster that doesn't change the fact that you misrepped his case

Exactly! Finally, someone is seeing the light.

Also four heads is acting scummy as fuck and veiling it as a 4 person hydra

Fosing on no grounds again, acting scummy in what ways? Doesn't really explain and no one catches it either

Grats, that's at least a good point and you're right to ask that.

THIS IS

NOT

TOWN TR1CKSTER

I don't care what anyone says

VOTE: Tr1ckster

I'm parking my vote here for the rest of the day

And... we're back to Trickster again... why look at that, no case and random accusations

Mhm, okay.

Trick- not lynching him regardless of alignment. I know, I said I wouldn't move my vote off of him but after the reread I feel that the fact that he's contributing is more valuable atm regardless of his actual alignment. If he's scum, the other scum team can choose to off him.

That 180... again.



She votes on random accusations with no case to support her claims. Actually, she looks more like she is voting just to either hop on a wagon or to start one.

Because she has the power to brainwash everyone into joining the wagons she starts. Right.

Your one decent point against her was her lack of adequate explanation behind her scumread on 4 Heads.

I still think you're scum, you even lack the backbone to use your vote to go after her because you know how bad you look.

Off to bed.

[Moonlight]

I still think you're scum, you even lack the backbone to use your vote to go after her because you know how bad you look.

Don't be silly. Whats one vote when five are already on you.

Incorrect, they are 4 heads.

@NM Indeed, the two of us do share a body. We are very different, however.

Boro's 384 is his first post that appeals to me. I'm not sure how Zeph thinks, it's so hard for me to imagine myself having scumreads and yet being so... submissive. He's not even trying, he almost seems as if he's giving up.

[Moonlight]

^ Accidentally quoted Zeph there, I wanted to reply to that before seeing Boro's post.

[Moonlight]

Do we need to start a philosophical discussion as to what a head, a.k.a. a person is? Do we need to discuss human chimeras, conjoined twins and dissociative personality disorder? I hope not.

They consider themselves 4 heads. Treating them as anything less is disrespectful in my opinion. >_<

[Moonlight]

The counter-argument to that is that such an extreme form of attention seeking points to some manner of disorder, which brings us back to mental health, and whether we should treat a person the way they want to be treated versus how we judge they should be treated.

An interesting ethical dilemma with no right or wrong answer in my opinion, it's a matter of choice. I choose to treat them as 4 different persons and everyone should decide for themselves.

@Viomi: What is the difference between a townblock and several players townreading each other without putting "borders" and a label on it?

@Chrimi: You considered Baezu's play anti-Town. What do you make of her change of heart? Do you see scum motivation, or are you still suspecting her because of anti-Town play?

@Who and No one: Any changes in your reads?

[Moonlight]

This is exciting. I hope she keeps scumreading me, I want to see what she is going to do about it. Finally something refreshing and new.

[Moonlight]

Well, you think I'm excellent too and I disagree, so. =P

I've never played with her and I don't trust hearsay, I want to experience her play first-hand.

PEdit; Damn, the scumread's fading.

[Moonlight]

The worst thing that can happen is that I get lynched, and I get to tell the rest of you who is scum on my wagon.

I'd love the opportunity.

[Moonlight]

@Tricks:

I'm still waiting for someone to debunk my theory that you can't be scum due to what I said in 369. Any takers?

Anyway, why would I expect to make it to endgame when you combine my tendency to get shot with having 4 scum alive? We'd have to lynch really well and/or they'd have to kill each other in the night for the game to be short, I'm never in it for the long run.

I don't give a shit what their read on us is, just how they reach it. I'm confident I'll be able to tell who is genuinely thinking we're scum and who's faking it.

The pieces are slooowly falling into place. The things I'm confident about though are that you are Town and Zeph is scum. Baezu and Ascended are probably also Town and Pasch in particular thinks a lot like me, so even if I die you can bounce reads off of him. My townread on 4H is weaker, but still there. I still don't know what to make of NM and Boro.

Finglove, midget, Jasmine, tman and idk have said too little and I wish they'd be more active.

[Moonlight]

No one would believe a doc claim from him when he has called himself a VT without realizing it.

What I forgot about though is that you (and now Mastin too) townslipped by thinking that Tricks "knows" you're Town. (Because the scum don't know who the Townies are in this setup.)

[Moonlight]

I have to say that for all my townreading of Tricks, his reaction to Mastin made me worry. What happened to the Tricks that challenged Nacho to lynch him? Why didn't he do that with Mastin?

[Moonlight]

... If Tricks is scum, he was looking to get off his buddy's wagon.

I'll be damned. D:

[Moonlight]

I did a quick ISO on Tricks, looking for mentions of Zeph. This sticks out so badly...

Then vote for tman.

We'll deal with Zeph in the morning.

You're upset because he voted for you for illegitimate reasons, I think you need to unvote him, take a break from the game, discuss with the other for heads, and get back into it.

Trust me. If you do this, people will take your vote more seriously. Like a vote that's been thought through and makes sense. Right now it looks like an OMGUS vote. And I'm not dealing with OMGUS votes.

So if you're town and you're legitimately scumhunting and you want to be taken seriously, unvote him for now and you can vote for him later after you've spoken with the other heads and you can come back with real reasons other than the one that he voted for you. Ok?

The bold part requires knowledge that Zeph will still be alive.

I'm beginning to seriously see a Zeph/Tricks team. Fuck.

[Moonlight]

The more I think about it, the more unlikely he is to react that way to her as a VT, I'm confident I know him well enough to guess that.

Fuck me. I'm fine with either a Zeph or Tricks lynch. If one flips scum, lynch the other one tomorrow. Or lynch me if you think I'm scum with him instead, but lynch them both afterwards.

I feel so stupid right now.

[Moonlight]

I'm trying to find words to express my disappointment for apparently being so wrong. What NM says about the timing is legit and it's why I won't be surprised if I get lynched today over this. I'm really confident now that they're scum together and I know my change seems opportunistic, but it is what it is.

There are wagons on both Tricks and Zeph, I'm fine with either's lynch like I said.

[Moonlight]

Tricks' flip will tell much more than Zeph's though, he interacted with many more people than Zeph when I think about it.

VOTE: Tr1ckster

[Moonlight]

Right. Mastin, who you pre-emptively worried about not setting me straight when it came to my read on you.

You're scum this time and I can't believe all the things I managed to miss. =/

[Moonlight]

How would I be certain that you're scum unless I'm scum with you? We both know that's not true.

You tried to redirect attention from Zeph and you assumed the worst of Mastin as she caught up. Your reaction to her scumreading you is what's making me confident though. Town-Tricks would have welcomed that with open arms, just as I did. =/

[Moonlight]

This game has made me realize that my greatest strength as Town is also my greatest weakness: I'm unbelievably bad at reading certain players, but I somehow manage to listen to someone who thinks differently and then I reform the puzzle in my head the right way.

It feels so bittersweet and that's what's happening right now. I'll be shocked if Tricks isn't scum with Zeph.

You calling yourself confident when you know your strong suit isn't reading people, but getting them to react is a huge alarm bell. You really are scum. =/

[Moonlight]

Not trying to impersonate the mod or anything, but we've still not had vote counts so...

(1) Not_Mafia - Finglove
(0) randomidget -
(1) The_Ascended - Tr1ckster
(0) idk -
(0) YurikoJasmine -
(0) Moonlight -
(4) Tr1ckster - BoroPhil, Not_Mafia, The_Ascended, Moonlight
(1) 4 Heads of Insanity - randomidget
(0) tman2nd -
(1) Finglove - YurikoJasmine
(0) Baezu -
(1) BoroPhil - idk
(2) Zephyrus - 4 Heads of Insanity, Baezu

(2) Not voting - Zephyrus, tman2nd

(I hope I didn't miscount.)

[Moonlight]

He'd look townier I suppose. I'd need to completely reform my reads though, because if you flip Town I will have fucked up to the point that I wouldn't trust my judgment.

I want you to be Town. You know I mean that, you'd better fucking know I mean that. I just don't see it, you're not pushing people's buttons to test their reactions the way I'm used to seeing from you. If you're not scum, then I'm not looking hard enough or your play is different in a way that has nothing to do with alignment, I don't know what else it could be.

[Moonlight]

You're at L-3...

I know what you mean about the situation in this game. At least now we're heading towards a direction. A bad one from your perspective, but the reactions to it should be telling. Worst case scenario: you get lynched, you flip Town, I look like opportunistic scum. I'll deal with that shitstorm if it comes.

For now, I need some sleep.

[Moonlight]

As we wait for the moderator situation, I want to know why the fuck Zeph has been a spectator instead of a player lately. -_-

You said you have scumreads on me and Baezu, but you didn't vote because you had 5 votes on you. What's your excuse this time?

[Moonlight]

Or do you mean to tell me that the wagon on "the most Town" player according to you didn't mean shit to you?

[Moonlight]

I'm a bit lost in the fast pace. Will catch up soon.

This post was on Sat May 03, 2014 12:48 pm for me.

Checking her profile: Last visited: Mon May 05, 2014 11:52 am.

This is her only game.

Hello lurking scum.

[Moonlight]

1. Trick has been buddying up to me, vice versa, which lets me know that Trick has a low chance of being scum since my alignment is town. No scum would buddy a town to draw attention to themselves.

2. Moon is potential scum, he has been trying to drive a wagon at everything remotely scummy

What you say in the quotes above makes no sense to me and I would never guess that anyone coherent enough to form sentences could type something like this.

In what dimension wouldn't scum buddy a Townie? In what universe is it scummy to go after those you think are scum?

Can someone please tell me if I've gone completely stupid here? Am I reading what he says correctly?

[Moonlight]

What are VIs?

It stands for Village Idiot.

[Moonlight]

Actually, that's not where the insanity ends, no, it goes on.

4. Day 2 is where the fun begins when scum team has two kill potential. Who dies and survives Night 1 might be key to finding scum

Sooo you're telling all scum in this game they can WIFOM the fuck out of us with their night kills.

What drugs are you on? I want some.

And yet another vote back onto Trickster when he has the most heat on him at the moment. Baezu is an opportunist scum.

I can imagine a game with all players being like you. No one would ever get lynched. Ever.

You know, I take my scumread on you back. I can't read you, because I don't understand you at all. And I don't mean that in the way I don't understand Boro. I understand what he

says

, I just struggle to follow his reasoning for what he says and that's fine, people are different, but you? I wonder if my eyes deceive me, it's like I can tell that you're speaking English, but the meaning behind the words is so wrong that accepting it would cause my faith in humanity to plummet.

[Moonlight]

They are somewhat associative, considering that my confusion with Zeph weakened my confidence in reading Tricks, but I still don't like how he voted for mastin there. That kneejerk reaction got me to take another look at my townread in the first place.

If there's one thing our playstyles got in common it's a "come at me" approach and in this game, I'm not seeing nearly enough of that from him. He did provide a plausible excuse that this game is a clusterfuck of too many things happening at once, but I'm not sold that's the reason he lacks a more offensive approach. >_>

[Moonlight]

And at the same time, I'm wondering if I'm putting Tricks on a pedestal because I'm "used" to his playstyle instead of being taken aback by it like the first time, so perhaps the reason I'm not impressed is the lack of the surprise factor.

... I feel useless in this game.

[Moonlight]

What makes you think they're easy? I see 5 of us on Trickster's wagon, but I don't see anyone else willing to join it. Do you?

[Moonlight]

I hope the spoiler tag and plurality lynch rules go away if the mod is replaced.

I'm off for tonight but I want to hear from Pasch, his trains of thought look similar to mine and I could use his input.

[Moonlight]

I feel I have not being playing well in this game. I'm taking advantage of the locked thread and I'm composing this while waiting for it to be unlocked. I'll just copy-paste once that happens. Having no life has its perks I guess. I don't post walls often, but when I do, well... you'll see.

I'm going through every post and sharing my thoughts (if I have any). It will probably mostly be IoA, but it's how I work with a puzzle. Even if I'm wrong, this post of mine should at least help the rest of you understand how my mind works, so you can read me better.

Spoiler: Page 1

NM asks Tricks if he is fire or ice scum. I stand by my initial impression: the way it is phrased can be a means to disconnect NM from either team. I do realize that it could mean nothing at all and that I could be reading too much into it. Why did he ask Tricks though? Could they be scum together? Did he pick someone at random?

Zephyrus greets Tricks and me. I know he is not distancing from me. Is he distancing from Tricks? Why did he mention us there?

Tricks greets me and mentions midget. Not odd, since midget played with us in our first game and this is a "reunion" of sorts. Moving on.

Tricks seems comfortable. He acknowledges that he is being mentioned, doesn't read into it. Hmm.

NM is probably being playful. Doesn't strike me as anything.

Tricks plays along. Again, all good.

I state my suspicion after acknowledging I've played with some of them. This is me trying to get things started.

Boro hopes I'm scum. Possibly nothing, since I just had a disastrous scumgame, but it seems to push the idea that he is Town. Why did he feel the need to do that?

Tricks is friendly with me and hopes "we're on the same team". Just like Boro he is implying he is Town, but is quite friendlier. Again, why do that?

I ask Boro if he thinks he can read me and imply I have nothing to hide while casting suspicion on NM again. Why did I need to imply I have nothing to hide? Was I affected by Boro and Tricks implying they are Town?

Boro responds to me and shows he only cares about winning. Nothing wrong with that.

Boro mentions what happened last time he played this. If he is scum this time, this might be a message to his buddy for what to watch out for. On the flip side, if he is Town it could be a message to the Town for what to watch out for. He probably had no intention for either of those things though.

Tricks gets curious about my suspicion. He is trying to determine how much I'm reading into it and I can see him doing that as either alignment.

Zephyrus says he wouldn't be surprised if I'm scum again. Why should he be? Or does this mean nothing?

NM responds to Boro that he had a similar experience. Could be nothing, could also be a subtle way for NM to buddy Boro by showing he is able to relate. Keeping that in mind.

I respond to Tricks and show my thoughts. I'm not suspecting him at the time.

Tricks says he'd be surprised if I'm scum, approves of my suspicion and shows he can relate to me. This is the same kind of manipulation I commented on NM doing to Boro, only much stronger.

I respond to Zeph with a question that shows I'm interested in figuring him out. Nothing to add to that, that's the last of the pregame posts.

tman starts the game by greeting those that have posted, picks up on NM's subtlety and votes. Seems like a pro-Town move to get things started.

NM randomly votes mastin (The_Ascended). Nothing to comment on.

Spoiler: Page 2

Fingloves casts a naked vote on NM, forming a wagon. Since there's nothing else in the post, I view this as a pro-Town move to put early pressure.

NM comments on the naked vote lacking anything, expresses disappointment. He seems to not be taking the wagon seriously, he is probably relaxed.

midget posts, greets those he is familiar with, votes Zeph. Why did he stay away from the wagon?

NM is being playful again.

Jasmine votes Finglove for forming a wagon. Bad move in my opinion, wagons lead to good things in my experience. If she is scum, she is likely scum with NM and doesn't want pressure on her buddy. Keeping this in mind.

Tricks calls NM scum, joins the wagon and asks Jasmine why wagons are bad.

I share my thoughts and join the wagon.

Tricks agrees with me and shows preliminary caution regarding mastin. Someone's feeling threatened already.

Tricks shows caution. Why discourage further votes there?

I express my thoughts. Probably a bad move, I should have waited to see how that would have played out if I kept my mouth shut.

Tricks responds only half-seriously, and is confused with my mindset. Oh Tricks, how different you are this time... How did I not notice?

He keeps inquiring about my question, draws a parallel to another game. A game he was Town in, trying to show a connection to his Town game. Manipulation.

I share my thoughts and show I'm wary of Tricks.

NM shows disapproval of "trying too hard". Why? Someone has to if we want to get out of RVS, you know.

midget worries about me being scum because he considers me good. That could mean anything, really.

I show NM my thoughts.

Tricks gets inquisitive on midget while showing confidence he can tell when I'm scum. This is brilliant; he plays to his Town-meta by getting inquisitive, and the fact that he is relaxed about me this time wasn't noticable at first glance, but it's there.

NM responds to me by saying he was only kidding. Well, okay? So? Am I supposed to just take your word for it, I had to start somewhere.

Tricks responds ahead of me. If Tricks is scum, this is beautiful, because he shows my exact mindset in his reply and sets foundations for my townread on him.

NM continues to show confusion. Why is it so hard to understand?

I'm being a smartass.

midget is being a bad sport. =P

Tricks is jokingly calling midget scum.

I show awareness of the nature of the setup. I'm still wondering if this was a good idea, since keeping them in the dark could have caused them to slip in some way. This awareness might also be part of the reason my play has turned a few heads.

Spoiler: Page 3

Tricks responds with the same awareness and wonders if I can fool him.

I imply that I'm Town. Why did I do that? Probably just to show him I can't fool him because the situation is not applicable, but again I'm not surprised if this looks bad on me later.

Tricks says he's already townreading me due to meta. For someone who will later preach about how meta doesn't apply, this is strange.

midget comments on Tricks playing to his meta. I thought so at the time too. Let's see if this is going to make Tricks get more comfy.

tman shows indifference regarding the wagon.

Tricks throws suspicion on him.

He provides the first reads list. Way too early. Why did he feel the need to do so? Much of it is shady. "Notes good things" for midget being a towntell? Dafuq.

NM keeps questioning about why his question was alignment-indicative. Sheesh, let it go already... or don't.

Tricks responds.

I share my thoughts.

Tricks likes what's been going on. Could be anything, but if he is scum he is satisfied with the townreads on him.

NM finally responds to his wagon with a vote on me. Only natural for anyone to defend themselves, can't read anything into that.

Tricks expresses dissatisfaction with NM. Why? I can't believe I missed this, but why is his defense suspicious, you would have done the same. Yet another instance of him buddying me indirectly and I'm so oblivious.

Tricks shows his mindset on reachy cases. Approval, and I share that. Keep this in mind.

NM responds with his own.

I show my amblivalence towards NM's reaction.

Tricks shows incredible defensiveness of... me. Again I can't believe my eyes, what have I missed this game?!

NM asks an astute question.

Tricks responds that I'm a strong townread. Already? What have I said?

Tricks shows an "I townread him unless given a reason not to" approach. That's... strange.

Tricks shows his thoughts on NM being scum and me being Town. Again, it's so early and you're already making a huge deal about something that might be nothing. I wanted things to get going from somewhere, but you make a bigger deal than what I planned there.

Pasch expresses disapproval of the NM wagon, gives his early reads and votes tman. Why? Even when you don't agree with the reasoning behind something, it's often useful to just roll with it and see what it might lead to.

Summary of the re-examination of those 3 pages: I see Tricks as scum with greater confidence. I'm toying with the idea of an NM/Jasmine pair, with NM/Ascended being a very distant afterthought.

Spoiler: Page 4

NM shows he wants pressure on me.

Baezu is being playful and votes Tricks.

Tricks responds to Pasch, shows willingness to jump on tman. I don't understand how I could have missed this.

Baezu thinks Tricks is being different this time. I wish I saw that myself earlier.

Tricks has a legit response.

Baezu is not convinced and also suspects midget. I agree, midget has been too quiet in this game.

Pasch shows a pro-Town mindset in my opinion.

Tricks responds that he is not trying to lay low. True, very true. But what you are doing is so different than what I usually see from you. =/

I share my thoughts. Showing my approval of the tman vote is going to be used soon.

Tricks shows for the first time some suspicion on me. Too little, too late.

I respond.

Tricks responds back, again showing incredible confidence in his read. Again I don't know where it's coming from and it's perplexing.

After explaining my thought, I show willingness to go after tman in aid of Pasch and Tricks.

Tricks goes after Finglove instead. Why? Why not tman? You agreed he was suspicious, why are you wasting the chance to put pressure on him?

Boro joins the Tricks wagon. He gives me the same impression as last game, but I was scum in that one so I don't know if I'm biased to townread him for anything.

I get inquisitive.

Boro replies he doesn't like Tricks' buddying.

I respond that buddying is not a scumtell. True, me. But you've missed

the way

in which Tricks has been buddying. It's more than friendliness and you're being oblivious to it.

Spoiler: Page 5

4 Heads go after Baezu.

midget votes 4 Heads for laziness and gets defensive. Hmm.

Who and No one scumread Tricks.

I share my early reads.

ChriVi believe Tricks is an easy target. I was thinking that too at the time, but no, I don't agree now.

Tricks mentions he buddied me as Town as well. Sure, but you weren't manipulating me, which I've shown -and probably will find more- examples of.

He then agrees with much of my post, but makes a distinction for Pasch while scumreading Boro and Finglove This ties in later with his reaction to mastin and the previous wariness of her.

Then he becomes suspicious of Baezu. He has only scumread his vote and the people who have voted for him. Not impressed.

Pasch shows his thoughts. Looks pro-Town to me.

Tricks is trying to persuade others that NM is scum. Wait, why did you move your vote then? I explained why I did, why did you just tag along with me if you're going to keep going at it?

I'm being fucking naive. How is it mutual, his only reason to doubt you has been the usage of the word "believes", wake the fuck up.

tman responds with a vote on Finglove and noticing that Tricks has been going after NM more than me. He was paying much more attention to Tricks than I was I guess. >_>

Tricks continues to try to put NM in the spotlight. You ask him why he isn't voting you, when you call him scum without voting him. See a paradox?

idk shares his thoughts. None of which are particularly original.

Finglove announces V/LA.

Jasmine hasn't caught up and says she will. Nope.

Boro believes Tricks misrepped him. I can give Tricks the benefit of the doubt there, he claims to suspect that Boro changed his reason, Boro claims he simply added to it, big deal. And yet they make a huge deal out of this one too later.

Boro continues to push for a Tricks lynch.

midget shares his thoughts.

Tricks responds to Boro and clarifies that the case against NM was just to get out of RVS. Why did you move your vote to Finglove and yet continued to go after the player you previously had your vote on?

Me being naive, again. They do see something you don't.

I show idk I don't like his reasoning.

I remind Tricks that he needs to watch out for spoiler tag rules.

Spoiler: Page 6

Tricks said "That was a short game.". I'm probably going to read too much into it and he probably meant it in the context of him being alive for the game, but can't this be read as his death mattering more than usual?

I express dissatisfaction with the plurality lynch rule.

NM asks the mod what happens in crossfire.

Zeph is catching up.

I show my thoughts regarding NM.

NM gives a legit pro-Town response to my concerns and offers to link me to a scumgame of his for meta.

I take him up on his offer. I wanted to see if NM can be bold enough as scum to ask publicly something that he could have asked privately.

He provides the link and goes after Finglove. That game didn't show me what I was looking for, but I saw that as scum he has the necessary composure to survive through LyLo and win it.

Tricks asks a weird question. Not only has he forgotten that NM suspected Finglove, he seems to forget that a vote doesn't have to mean much. Even if NM wasn't scumreading Finglove, he could have still joined the wagon for pressure as Town. Why is Tricks ignoring this?

NM explains, Tricks apologizes, Baezu wants to catch up.

Baezu alt slips and says suspects Tricks and I have been communicating privately. Even if we were scum together, scum don't have daychat, so this is bordering on calling someone a cheater. I'd welcome any admin to check my PMs, they'll find both me and Tricks communicate but we've

never

discussed an ongoing game in any way. One could still argue we might do that off-site, but we haven't talked off-site whatsoever and one would have to take my word on that. =/

Zephyrus shows a lack of suspicion towards what me and Tricks are doing. This could simply be him recognizing our meta, or a defense for a buddy and I know I'm not one!

He quickly tosses the idea that we might be scum together, but is not using his vote to do anything about it. This is a huge alarm bell, if he is scum, he is scum with Tricks just for this post.

I respond to Baezu with my thoughts. What I say is true for our styles complimenting each other. Is that happening in this game? Not really! And yet I still don't suspect a thing. *sighs*

Tricks responds with a tongue-in-cheek attitude.

I show that I have been toying with the idea of Tricks as scum but not believing it based on his interactions with others. If only I was looking at his interaction with me more carefully...

Baezu believes Tricks is scum. Um, we got it the first time. Why are you pushing for it that strongly? o_O

Pasch shows a very pro-Town attitude by letting things develop without interfering. I really like this.

Baezu makes... an awkward post. "Good to know"? What the... he cast suspicion on two people without using his vote, what the... I don't get it.

Summary of those 3 pages: Tricks is still scum, I'm starting to like NM but I'm still torn about him, I freaking love Pasch's posts, Baezu's posts are strange, ditto for Zeph for different reasons.

Spoiler: Page 7

tman unvotes and wants to find a new target but is having trouble forming scumreads. Can't really blame him.

He decides to go after 4 Heads. Nothing seems wrong about that, he is "exploring" with that vote.

Baezu unvotes Tricks and says she's got her eye on him still. Why unvote then? If you have no better place for your vote, why didn't you keep it on him?

Tricks still suspects tman and gets confused at Baezu's response.

Baezu responds.

Tricks seems oblivious as to having a case against him. Can this be Town being genuinely confused? It's the one thing that makes me wonder if Tricks is Town after all. If only I wasn't seeing manipulation in his early posts...

Baezu is toying with the idea of inactive scum. I actually agree that there's a good chance for that being the case, but it's also an easy excuse for scum to appear to scumhunt.

Tricks seems skeptic towards Baezu.

I share my thoughts.

Tricks... agrees, but has his eye on Baezu. I'm so confused, Tricks. You "raised your eyebrows", what did you say "exactly" to? =/

4 Heads show an interesting train of thought. I like the way they think. Not finding it particularly towny or scummy, just enjoying it for what it is. =P

NM shows ambivalence towards 4 Heads. Understandable.

midget shares his thoughts, shows dislike for Baezu and caution towards scumreading anyone. Fair enough.

4 Heads show more of their thoughts and townread idk. This is strange, what has idk posted that looks like Town? I didn't find his post that good.

The next few posts are NM, Tricks and 4 Heads talking about which head does what. No comment on that.

Boro responds in a strange way. He still believes that making a reachy case is scummy. I can only agree to disagree on that. Why isn't he bringing up the way Tricks has been buddying?

Spoiler: Page 8

Tricks wonders why a reachy case is bad. Indeed. Again, why did you hop on Finglove and didn't push NM more if you really wanted to use that reachy case for reads?

4 Heads go after Boro. Okay.

NM implies disapproval. Probably townreading Boro.

Chrimi shows her thoughts. I agree with them, doesn't make Boro scum though.

NM shares his own. I can only agree to disagree here.

NM still believes Tricks misrepped Boro. I still find that debatable.

Boro seems confused at Tricks. I don't understand why he struggled to follow Tricks there...

Boro mocks 4 Heads. Well, that doesn't tell me much either.

Tricks asks the legit question of how he is getting towncred for his play. Err, you

were

, by me. Are you oblivious to who is townreading you?

Tricks does something that I, for once, think is a misrep. That's not what the argument was.

I try to understand Boro and ask him something.

He shows an "If I don't understand it, it's coming from scum" attitude.

NM calls Tricks out for misrepping again. I actually agree this time.

Boro sees it too. Too bad I wasn't looking hard enough.

Tricks shows his thoughts.

I challenge Boro.

He gets confused.

Boro shows the way he thinks.

Viomi shows an intense dislike for Boro and indirectly defends Tricks.

NM states a case was being made against him. Agreed, but I can't agree on that being a bad thing.

I share my thoughts and ask Tricks what he makes of Boro. I regret this, because I'm leading Tricks on here unintentionally.

Tricks shows he understands something I do.

Boro shows he likely doesn't.

And his next post also shows that he treats votes always as a desire to lynch someone. That's not the way I look at votes.

Spoiler: Page 9

Boro responds to my question for Tricks and I'm not sure he understands what I asked.

NM seems to link me with Tricks and shows a dislike for my question. Understandable.

ChriVi seem to get me. Cool.

I ask NM (misquoted Boro somehow) why he wants me to stop. I wonder if he is threatened by my cooperation with Tricks.

Boro continues to try to understand ChriVi.

NM again shows that me and Tricks are linked in his mind. I don't know what his motives are for that, I can see that for either alignment making sense.

Boro shares his thoughts. Scarily enough, I am now in total agreement with them. Life's full of surprises.

NM shows he thinks I was manipulating Tricks. Nope, wasn't my intention. =/

Once again I show how my mind works.

NM still wonders if I was intentionally manipulative.

I'm pointing towards NM and Boro as a possible pair. Considering what I've now seen in the pregame as subtle manipulation by NM towards Boro, this isn't very legit. I am also seeing things I like from NM, so I can't say I'm confident he's scum.

NM says he is townreading Boro.

I ask for reads while defending Tricks.

NM inexplicably gives Jasmine a townread, townreads Pasch and everyone else is null. This is bizarre, because his vote is on Finglove. If he has an issue with reachy cases, why is he after a null read? NM/Jasmine team is what I'm currently thinking.

I ask about Jasmine and why NM isn't suspicious of Boro's defense.

Tricks shows his thoughts.

Tricks asks a great question.

NM gives a vague answer, then redirects the attention. This is now setting off alarm bells. Is Jasmine a sensitive topic?

I explain myself again.

NM finally gets my point and shows his viewpoint. Cool, at least we understand each other, that's a start. Still don't like the Jasmine avoidance.

Tricks wonders about my thoughts. This makes sense for him to do as either alignment, but given his manipulation I think he is trying to see if he can mislynch either of them, so he is not scum with them.

Baezu seems to be scumreading Tricks and 4 Heads.

To sum up: Tricks is still scum, I'm thinking of an NM/Jasmine scum pair as well (but at the same time can see things I like from NM).

Spoiler: Page 10

Baezu goes after Tricks.

Chrivi responds with a vote on Baezu and calls her play anti-Town. That doesn't make her scum though, so why?

Baezu asks me something I had already thought of.

I share my thoughts.

I show annoyance towards being perceived as naive. Oh the irony.

VT softclaim by Tricks. That was fucking bad regardless of alignment.

Baezu gets defensive. Not sure what to make of it to be honest.

NM jokingly predicts a wall by mastin. Heh, wait till you read this one!

ChriVi townread me, scumread NM.

Baezu believes that the change in Tricks' play means an alignment change. I agree for a similar but not identical reason. Tricks was manipulating me early on and I can see Town manipulating with good reason in some cases, but not early on, so I'm scumreading him.

A few trivial posts later, idk still suspects tman and is being Captain Obvious. I don't like his play so far.

Tricks explains himself and townreads Baezu. That's strange, what makes you think she is Town? Are you afraid to push her?

tman points out that even scum need to scumhunt and townreads Trick. Okay.

I'm being naive and useless. NM and Boro aren't scum together. If NM is scum, he has been manipulating Boro. And that's quite the big if.

Tricks puts a little pressure on tman. I'd like it if you put pressure on someone like Baezu instead of someone who is less active.

Zeph defends Tricks, even saying that if his play is different it's because of the setup. This is awkward as fuck, how does he know what the difference in playstyle means? Tricks/Zeph team IMO.

He then votes a hydra for being a hydra. Really.

I am in disbelief of what I just witnessed.

Viomi isn't very happy with Zeph. And who can blame him?

Spoiler: Page 11

Tricks agrees with me.

Viomi thinks of a PL against Zeph.

Tricks is against that.

Viomi still believes Zeph needs to be taught a lesson. Are we trying to educate people or lynch scum, I'm confused.

Zeph is being... no comment.

Tricks is incredibly friendly with someone who just did something weird. He is trying to work with Zeph and doesn't seem to suspect what he just did in the slightest, even going as far as to propose that we look for scum elsewhere. This is fucking awkward, again.

Who and No one give their reads, vote for Zeph.

Tricks defends Zeph. Jesus.

Zeph obeys Tricks. Literally.

No one believes Zeph is doing nothing. I disagree, what he is doing is fucking weird is all.

Tricks keeps defending Zeph. Why? Why are you not putting pressure on him? What gives?

No one gives a scumread on Zeph based on gut. I can't disagree.

Tricks keeps defending Zeph and tries to see if Boro and NM could be voted for. Manipulation right there.

No one gives NM and Jasmine a gut townread. I'm

very

skeptical about those two.

Tricks instructs 4 Heads what to do. Seriously, what the flying fuck? Where are you getting this comfort from?

ChriVi go after Tricks without explanation. Well, that's okay.

Then Chrimi switches to Zeph. That's fine too.

Boro is trying to understand me. He is on the right track and I tend to townread such efforts.

He is doing the same for idk. Again, pro-Town move to try to understand the way someone thinks.

Tricks defends Zeph yet again with "there are people doing less than Zeph". There are also people doing so much more than him, Tricks. Your defense is awful.

I share my thoughts and FINALLY I'm starting to notice the weirdness.

Boro still seems to not understand me. At least he tried.

And shares more of his thoughts.

Spoiler: Page 12

I respond to Boro and share my reads. I'm starting to look at Tricks/Zeph as a decent possibility, but not enough to change my read yet. Such naivete.

midget still suspects 4 Heads and doesn't know what to make of the rest of us. It's difficult to read someone when they're being so vague. >_<

I'm trying to get more out of midget.

I provide a votecount and wonder why Tricks and NM still vote for Finglove.

Boro shows lack of awareness and is being a smartass. =P

Tricks admits he doesn't know what to make of Zeph and goes after midget. This is yet another huge alarm bell. midget is easy to go against because of how vague he is. And the ambivalence towards Zeph makes no fucking sense when you've defended him this much.

Baezu shares her reads. What I find interesting is how she wants to use Tricks regardless of alignment and how her mind works. Probably Town due to how vulnerable she makes herself, this is quite bold if she is scum.

Tricks seems ridiculously fine with Baezu's reads. Did he even read the part where she wants to use him regardless of alignment? Is he fine with that?

Zeph wonders about Tricks/Baezu, does nothing.

I join the midget wagon, but start to catch on with regards to Tricks.

Tricks responds half-seriously.

Boro is being a smartass and suspicious of Baezu.

He is considering Tricks/Baezu, but Zeph slipped him by for whatever reason. Why?

NM disapproves of associative tells on D1. I'm ambivalent. On their own, I agree that they're useless. But if I'm already scumreading someone independently, I am going to look for associative tells involving them even without a flip, that's how I roll, sorry.

Baezu shares her thoughts.

Boro still suspects her.

Baezu goes after Zeph.

Boro shows understanding towards Baezu's point, still suspects her.

Tricks is preparing to jump on Boro. It's obvious.

I question NM about his vote. For someone who says pro-Town things, his vote didn't fit his words.

I also try to understand Baezu more.

NM goes after Tricks.

To sum up: Tricks/Zeph team. Not sure what to make of NM. If he is scum, he is not scum with Boro, Jasmine is a likely partner.

Spoiler: Page 13

I ask NM for reasoning behind the vote.

He responds. I see the reasoning as legit now.

Zeph enjoys the state of the game. He shouldn't, unless we're close to lynching scum.

Yet another defense of Tricks.

Tricks calls out NM for inconsistency.

NM asks Tricks to show him where he said he lost his scumread on him.

I show my frustration.

Tricks is trying to work with me. *sighs*

Boro reminds Tricks he is not confirmed Town.

NM disapproves of townblocks.

Tricks appears frustrated at not being listened to.

NM sees Tricks as someone who tries to desperately start a townblock. True, and suspicious because he is not explaining why he is doing that.

idk defends Tricks, goes after Boro. I don't like this post either.

Baezu responds to me. I like her response, seems to have a towny mindset.

I hop on the Zeph wagon and mix up idk with tman.

Pasch gives his reads. I love his posts, this is another example.

Boro still seems confused and questions idk.

Zeph calls Baezu scum, yet doesn't vote her. Wow.

I respond to Pasch and show why Zeph is being strange.

Zeph is... probably pretending to be naive there. I don't know.

Boro still suspects Tricks.

And shares his reads.

Tricks finally decides to go after Boro.

NM is confused for good reason.

Spoiler: Page 14

Tricks explains himself.

Boro puts pressure on him.

Tricks seems confident that Boro is scum.

tman decides to randomly get a read on 4 Heads. Weird.

I share my thoughts without losing sight of Zeph.

Boro continues to try to apply pressure.

Zeph shares his reads. And boy do they suck.

NM calls Tricks out for lack of proper response.

Tricks doesn't believe Boro townslipped and seems to believe there's a "too townie" accusation against us. I don't see one...

I explain yet again how my mind works.

Boro is getting frustrated. Can't blame him.

Zeph is trying to redirect attention from Tricks to Baezu. Tricks/Zeph being obvious.

NM shows where he stands.

Boro clarifies and I finally decide Zeph is scum.

Zeph is being... I don't know.

Tricks joins the hunt.

I show where I'm at.

Boro is calling it as he sees it.

NM shares his thoughts. When I mention that I like some of his posts, that's a fine example.

Boro clarifies something.

Spoiler: page 15

Zeph seems worried at long last.

I show why I'm seeing Zeph scum.

NM comments on the funny scenario of Tricks and I being scum, but not together.

I respond quite honestly.

Tricks seems worried about how he's going to look. Got something to hide?

I'm letting him know what I'm thinking.

He is exploring the possibility of scum-mastin. This is probably him worrying about mastin figuring him out, I can't explain that paranoia otherwise.

I try to put more pressure on Zeph.

midget shows an interest in how Tricks is looking at the situation and they discuss. Makes me wonder about midget being scum, but not with Tricks.

I share my thoughts and want to see more from everyone.

Viomi hates townblocks with a passion.

Chrimi votes Zeph... again.

Tricks asks Zeph to... claim. This is actually weird. He looks awfully nonchalant here. This alone makes me doubt Tricks/Zeph, but Tricks might have been aware this wasn't L-1.

I remind that it's L-2 and that Tricks can't be scum. *sighs*

To sum up: Somewhat less confident on Tricks/Zeph, but the latter looks so bad. Starting to townread Boro (and NM to a lesser extent).

Spoiler: Page 16

I ask Viomi about townblocks.

Zeph gets defensive and tries to make a case on Baezu.

I show him why I don't like it.

He provides a bad excuse for not voting.

Viomi

really

hates townblocks.

mastin is finally here.

Chrimi suspects Zeph and Baezu.

Boro defends Zeph. I think he makes a good point, but perhaps scum-Zeph relied on this. I don't know.

midget shows he is paying attention.

A discussion about heads takes place and we digress.

Spoiler: Page 17

midget still thinks 4 Heads are scum.

Tricks ask why it matters which head is posting as The_Ascended. I'm keeping this in mind.

Baezu believes Zeph is scum.

mastin shares her first impressions. This looks quite pro-Town, really.

Boro agrees with midget.

Tricks doesn't like what he sees at all.

NM picks up on it.

Tricks seems to get paranoid about mastin. I would be more inclined to believe this if there wasn't any foreshadowing of it earlier on!

Boro explains mastin's method of catching up.

As does NM.

Tricks still doesn't appreciate it. "Old flames that need not be kindled"? Nuh uh.

mastin progresses.

NM makes a good point.

Tricks votes mastin because he disagrees with her and she should know better. Given his recurring worry of scum-mastin, this kneejerk reaction is just bad.

NM calls OMGUS and votes Tricks. Pretty spot-on.

Tricks shows his perspective.

Baezu also disapproves of Tricks' jump and agrees with NM.

Tricks believes mastin is a scumhunting god. Why?

Baezu, well, indulges him.

mastin posts more of her reads.

Tricks questions her.

Spoiler: Page 18

mastin shares more of her thoughts. And I love them.

I welcome the refreshingly new approach with open arms.

Tricks seems to scumread mastin because "she should know better". No, nobody is a scumhunting god.

More mastin goodness.

I respond to Tricks and express chagrin at the scumread on me going away. I actually love being scumread, it's a great chance for me to get direct interaction with whoever is after me and I can establish a read on them.

Tricks responds and shows how he thinks. This doesn't seem like his Town mindset at all. D:

I openly invite a push on me.

Tricks shows a fear of dying.

More from mastin. Can I just say I love these posts? If that slot is scum, we're so fucked.

Tricks seems to wonder about how we look.

mastin posts more of her thoughts, is after Tricks.

Boro continues to be a smartass. =P And likes mastin's posts.

Tricks explains himself and calls out buddying between Boro and mastin. Not looking good, mate.

Boro explains how it's not buddying.

I share my thoughts, but still don't want to believe Tricks is scum. By the way, if I was scum, I'd have already taken the chance there to turn on him. =P

Boro discusses where I'm wrong.

I start to have the epiphany that Tricks is scum. Hallefuckinglujah.

Tricks and Zeph are still scum, not sure if they're on the same team, mastin looks fantastic, also liking NM and Boro a bit more.

Spoiler: Page 19

NM points out the faults of Tricks' play. To play devil's advocate, this shows why the play is bad, not why it's scummy. I see scum mostly because Tricks manipulated me when he lacked a Town motivation to do so.

Meanwhile, I'm being dramatic. >_>

Boro points out something that flew over my head.

NM expresses amblvalence towards my change of heart. Understandable.

Boro acknowledges the possibility of me being scum, but is townreading me.

I finally decide I've had enough of this and go after Tricks.

Tricks plays the AtE card. He knows I'm a sucker for AtE. And because he knows, his usage of this spells doom for my read on him. =/

I show that everything is finally starting to sink in.

mastin responds to me. I'm not sure what "too organic" is about, but alright.

The rest of this is mostly me and Tricks arguing.

Spoiler: Page 20

I show (for the billionth time) how my mind works.

Tricks rants about what's making him seem different this game. Plausible, but not buying it, sorry...

He manages to completely forget my vote count and claims while thinking he's at L-1. This is so weird, because he should have known he was at L-3.

I respond.

Tricks gives a small speech that makes me quite scared of being wrong. AtE is so effective on me. I really can't do much about it.

After discussing about hydra heads and the mod situation, I question why Zeph has been a spectator lately.

Finglove catches up. He is scumreading Boro and NM, townreading Tricks, Zeph and me.

I call Jasmine out for intentional lurking.

Tricks decides to go after her.

Baezu gives The_Ascended a townread.

She gets confident that Tricks is scum due to AtE. I guess so.

Zeph posts... this. What is this I don't even.

midget goes after Boro and is looking at him + 3 relatively inactive players for scum. This might be scum-midget being lazy, I don't know what to make of this.

Tricks toys with the possibility of me being scum, yet continues to townread Baezu. I don't even understand how he could be confident she is not scum.

Spoiler: Page 21

NM brings up a good point. After being undecisive of what to make of him for a while, I like his more recent posts enough to townread him now. Shame, I liked the NM/Jasmine idea.

midget asks about VIs. I don't know what to make of him still. He's not going with the flow, but I don't know what to make of that until I see more.

I react to Zeph and respond to midget.

midget isn't particularly against a lynch on Zeph or Tricks, but keeps his vote on Boro. Hmm.

I continue to rant about Zeph not making sense.

Tricks agrees and... townreads Zeph. Wait, what? I'm confused. Why do you have a townread on someone you don't get?

midget believes they're not scum together. Hmmm. This makes me wonder if midget is scum with either of them or someone else entirely, and if he is trying to figure out the other scum team. I don't know why that post in particular makes me think that, it's possible I'm affected by "losing their team the game" showing that midget is able to relate to the scum mindset.

NM wonders how much I correlate Tricks and Zeph. This can come from either alignment for various reasons.

I respond with my thoughts, which were a mess at the time.

Tricks deals with the situation lightheartedly.

I waffle and feel useless. Understandable I hope.

Baezu expresses confidence about Tricks and Zeph being scum. She also approves of me giving info. Boy is she in for a treat once I post this. =P

midget reacts to Baezu pushing for either of them by calling them easy lynches. This gets me back to midget being scum with one of them.

I disagree.

Baezu asks something strange. Despite my townread on her, I can't agree with her there. It's not hard to gauge how much support one will have on their wagon before they start it. An evaluation of the players you're playing with would let you know how they think, manipulation of that is decently possible.

Aaand then mod stuff happens and I want to hear from Pasch.

Conclusion:

Tricks is scum.

Zeph is scum, not necessarily with Tricks.

midget scum works with either of them (fits with Zeph more than Tricks in my opinion), but I'm not nearly confident enough about him.

I am not a fan of idk's posts either, or Jasmine's lurking.

The_Ascended are my strongest townread. I also like Baezu, NM and Boro. I don't know what to make of 4 Heads after re-reading, despite townreading them the first time.

That's all for now.

[Moonlight]

Which catch are you referring to?

[Moonlight]

Can everyone who's got their vote on me post a good reason they think I'm scum?

The reasons I believe you are scum this time are:

1)

Early manipulation.

My wall contains examples of what I mean there. I don't consider manipulation a scumtell, but I don't see why you'd choose to do that so early as Town...

unless

you believed you could manipulate me into townreading you just so we can work together that much faster while ignoring the consequences of that. >_<

2)

The focus on mastin.

Every time that subject came up, you had to plant the idea of scum-mastin. And what is most troubling is that town-you would have attempted a wagon on her early on if you were really worried. Maybe not in place of your NM vote, but in place of your Finglove one.

Contrary to what others may scumread you for, I see no problem with the reachy case on NM or the misrep of Boro, I can let those slide and I could see potential Town vs Town there if not for the reasons I'm scumreading you.

[Moonlight]

I'm seeing 5 votes on Tricks and with 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch, so that should be L-2.

[Moonlight]

Bullshit. Your willingness to go after Nacho regardless in that game said tons about you. I recently tried to wagon him myself in a game and that got things going, so don't give me that. The fact alone that you're using a "they thought I was scum" argument shows me you're paying attention to how people are going to read you in this game based on what you do.

Moreover, why did you assume mastin would not be doubted without your aid? And what's the deal with your townread on Zeph if he confuses you as much as he confuses me?

[Moonlight]

Why have you only been pressing two or three people as scum? You've remarked that other people may seem scummy, but ... ?

You mean midget, idk and Jasmine? I feel comfortable enough with voting either you or Zeph to simply keep an eye on them without pressuring them yet.

Ergh... >_>

I can't help but see your interaction with mastin weird this game, Moon. And I don't like how she seemed to start out scumreading you and...

No. I'm not going to start.

No, please do. Nothing she has said has given me reason to think that slot is scum and I was townreading Pasch already, so that slot looks Town as fuck from where I'm standing.

If you were Town, you could at least theorize about how at some point I discouraged the Finglove wagon, which would pair me nicely with him, or even Jasmine who I have not gone after despite calling her out for active lurking.

Instead, what do you do? You obsess with mastin because that's the lazy and easy road for you to fake Town.

Did I say he confuses me? Hm. I must have lied. Zeph makes sense to me. He's a good strong townread.

Mastin's the most experienced player here. She's highly respected for her insights, I believe most, if not all, of the players know this. Most people aren't as hard to influence as you... and someone with a good rep tends to get easy town points where someone with a bad rep might have to fight for them hard.

I interpreted your "Exactly." in 506 literally.

I would argue that most people are harder to influence than I am, but let's agree to disagree there. I am giving you room to be Town, but you keep impressing me by how narrow your focus is.

Why are you completely ignoring Pasch if you are scumreading mastin? They share that slot.

What if The_Ascended are Town? Ask yourself that and you've got Boro to go after, whose game looks so far the same as the previous Open, and you had no issue with his play there. What changed?

PEdit: I already said you two are not scum together necessarily.

[Moonlight]

I am reacting strongly because you of all players here should know this is Town-me by now.

"Too easy"? Why isn't it too easy then for me and The_Ascended? I've townread both heads of that hydra the whole game, Pasch townreads me, mastin started with a scumread that changed along the way, I don't see anything hard there.

You're not trying hard enough. =/

[Moonlight]

Also,

I was townreading them... But your reaction is making me unsure of myself.

Come again?

I'm not going to try to read mastin because OMGUS says she's scum as eff.

What changed between these posts? All that slot had to do was unvote for a townread?

Bull. Shit.

[Moonlight]

You've never seen me lie about my reads before?

Never seen me institute fake pressure?

You're starting to make me wonder whether I really ever played with you.

I've seen you lie about your reads, sure. But to say that you tried to put pressure on mastin is really hard to believe, there was no fucking way anyone would feel pressured by that lone vote you tossed her way.

The funniest thing in this argument of ours is that you say you didn't want an obvious wagon on her because you'd be scumread for it. And now that I'm talking about how bad your vote on her was, you act surprised. By your own logic, why shouldn't I scumread you?

As to your "bigger picture" comment, you mentioned a keyword: "D2". I'm not going to look for the whole scum team on D1, I have learned my lesson about not being a scumhunting god. No one is. I want to see a flip for now, and even if I get killed tonight I'll be fine with it, I've shared each and every thought I've had, I've tried my best with what I've seen.

I'm looking forward to seeing answers to your 547, at least if you're somehow Town I might be able to tell through those interactions, our own isn't really helping. >_>

[Moonlight]

I assumed that the scum QT remains always open just because of this rule:

6) The Mafia may not converse privately during the day. If this rule is broken, both members of the mafia team violating this rule will be modkilled.

If any scum have communicated, I want to believe we'd have seen modkills by now.

[Moonlight]

Good point, Burke hasn't even been online lately.

His last post gave me the impression that something shady took place, why else would he not be sure if D1 should continue as normal?

@MOD:

Whoever is responsible for this game now, can we please get an update on what is going on?

[Moonlight]

Cool, now we just need a few of the... quieter players to speak up and this should feel like a 13p game at long last.

[Moonlight]

I want Tricks to explain his townread on Zeph. The guy

[Moonlight]

*accidentally submitted mid-sentence*

The guy just makes no sense to me.

[Moonlight]

um??????

You have not explained why your vote was on Boro. I didn't see you pointing anything out as scummy from him, so I didn't know what that vote was for.

At least the one on Jasmine speaks for itself, it's high time she did something. I wish I had more than one vote to use. >_<

[Moonlight]

Yeah... lurker vote. Compelling!

And that's why I hate lurking with a passion. Can't read them, can't make a case against them, just cross your fingers and hope they either get active or you can convince others that a policy lynch will do more good than harm.

Regarding Tricks, he has faked reads as Town just to get a reaction, so don't let that strengthen your scumread. His play this game looks a lot like his Town meta, midget is right about that, but I see things that don't really fit that picture.

If Tricks is Town, he has either underestimated or overestimated me in this game, because he either expected me to never notice his manipulation, or to notice it and be able to tell instantly if it's Town or scum-motivated.

[Moonlight]

To be fair, I'm on the fence myself myself when it comes to midget. I've only played with him once and scumread him for much of that game, he ended up being Town.

I wouldn't say he is fence-sitting though. He sheeped Tricks in 541, so he's not on the fence when it comes to him. I appreciate that he has a decent read on him, even if I don't agree with it. >_>

midget, do you keep scumreading 4 Heads and Boro? Any other thoughts?

[Moonlight]

Time for me to share my early reads. In the order they have posted:

NM puzzles me. He cast a random vote on mastin and ignored his wagon for a while, until he didn't. His vote on me is a lot like Boro's on Tricks, scumreading someone for trying too hard to get things going.

Zeph hasn't caught up, so no read.

Tricks gives me the same feeling he gave me in our first game. I have seen him play scum, but never early, only after replacing in. So far this seems very much like his Town play.

Boro seems to consider reachy cases a scumtell and that's something I don't agree with, but that tells me nothing about his alignment.

tman's posts rub me the wrong way. His vote on NM seemed to be random, so he didn't really make anything of the pregame posts. After noticing the wagon, he showed apathy, which I can't say I appreciate.

midget is... strange. I've only played one game with him and it was our first, so his playstyle might have developed, but he seems much bolder and confident than I remember. Not sure what that means, but it's noteworthy.

Jasmine doesn't like wagons and I want to know why before I decide what to make of her.

Pasch's posts appeal to me, and even though I disagree with his viewpoint on reachy cases I can understand it. His defense of NM makes me townread him, because I don't see any scum motivation for him to disapprove of the wagon... unless those two are scum together. =P

Baezu seems to rely on meta and to dislike buddying, which I don't know what to make of.

4 Heads is going to be a headache (ba dum tsh!). I hate when the heads disagree like that.

To sum up: townread on Tricks and Pasch, scumread on tman, null on everyone else but I'm paying NM, midget and Jasmine extra attention.

I'd agree with most of this.

I'd like to add that my eye is on Boro and Fin, the former for... a rather.. interesting argument against me, and the latter for a naked vote. Both are null at the moment, however.

However, I would like to say I think midget hasn't really changed much at all, but you're better at noticing this sort of thing than I.

I'm not willing to give Pasch a town read yet, but that might simply be because he's too straightforward for me to read, I think. I'll trust you on this one until I believe otherwise.

4 Heads is going to be a headache just reading their posts.. >.< Although I like seeing their thought processes. Makes me more comfortable with them and I'll give them a town read for now.

Considering midget's wagon-hopping, I wouldn't be surprised if he is scum with Tricks and is trying to get the attention away from his buddy.

I'm still hesitant about him though, he is easily scumread as Town in my experience. =/

Regardless, I'm in a "Tricks for now, decide on midget and Zeph after the flip" mindset.

[Moonlight]

Bah, I accidentally quoted that because I was going through their ISOs, looking for mentions of each other. Anyway, since I did quote it, I was wondering if Tricks was indirectly getting me to ignore midget there. >_>

[Moonlight]

Time for me to share my early reads. In the order they have posted:

NM puzzles me. He cast a random vote on mastin and ignored his wagon for a while, until he didn't. His vote on me is a lot like Boro's on Tricks, scumreading someone for trying too hard to get things going.

Zeph hasn't caught up, so no read.

Tricks gives me the same feeling he gave me in our first game. I have seen him play scum, but never early, only after replacing in. So far this seems very much like his Town play.

Boro seems to consider reachy cases a scumtell and that's something I don't agree with, but that tells me nothing about his alignment.

tman's posts rub me the wrong way. His vote on NM seemed to be random, so he didn't really make anything of the pregame posts. After noticing the wagon, he showed apathy, which I can't say I appreciate.

midget is... strange. I've only played one game with him and it was our first, so his playstyle might have developed, but he seems much bolder and confident than I remember. Not sure what that means, but it's noteworthy.

Jasmine doesn't like wagons and I want to know why before I decide what to make of her.

Pasch's posts appeal to me, and even though I disagree with his viewpoint on reachy cases I can understand it. His defense of NM makes me townread him, because I don't see any scum motivation for him to disapprove of the wagon... unless those two are scum together. =P

Baezu seems to rely on meta and to dislike buddying, which I don't know what to make of.

4 Heads is going to be a headache (ba dum tsh!). I hate when the heads disagree like that.

To sum up: townread on Tricks and Pasch, scumread on tman, null on everyone else but I'm paying NM, midget and Jasmine extra attention.

I'd agree with most of this.

I'd like to add that my eye is on Boro and Fin, the former for... a rather.. interesting argument against me, and the latter for a naked vote. Both are null at the moment, however.

However, I would like to say I think midget hasn't really changed much at all, but you're better at noticing this sort of thing than I.

I'm not willing to give Pasch a town read yet, but that might simply be because he's too straightforward for me to read, I think. I'll trust you on this one until I believe otherwise.

4 Heads is going to be a headache just reading their posts.. >.< Although I like seeing their thought processes. Makes me more comfortable with them and I'll give them a town read for now.

Hey Moonlight! Guess who else is with us! Our old buddy randomidget!

I'm worried that Moonlight is scum because he played such a strong game first time round.

We just played a game with him as scum. You'll know if and when he's scum.

That said... why are you bringing up doubt of Moonlight alone? There are four people on the N_M wagon... two of them you've played with before, why Moonlight?

Because I see things that don't fit. I have already explained how your manipulation makes sense as Town only if you thought you could take a lazy road without consequences. Plus. you're way too wary of how you're being read.

If you're seeing similarities between my play in the previous game and this one, you should be after me. Why aren't you?

[Moonlight]

God fucking damn it with the quotes! D: I keep forgetting what posts I've been meaning to reply to.

[Moonlight]

I don't believe in meta reading you after the very few games we've played.

You've lost me here; you implied you see similarities between my play in this game and the one game I've been scum in. If you don't believe I'm scum, then you must believe I've watered down my Town game, which I'd never do.

You excused your inactivity by saying you've been sick (and I hope you stay healthy), but I really wonder if the timing is a coincidence. As soon as I toyed with a Tricks/midget pair, I hear barking and there are no bites. Hmm.

[Moonlight]

For another thing.. You would never water down your town game? Explain this, then

That's not watering down my game, it's the opposite. I'm waiting for a flip to tell me I'm on the right track before I take a serious look at associative tells.

In every game I've tried to use associative tells pre-emptively, they've been inaccurate. And every time I've needed someone to put me back on the right track, and they did, and things worked out from there.

I'm liking your "ignore his meta because the games are too few" approach. This way you might actually come up with something that looks legit about how I'm scum in this one. Entertain me, I'm waiting.

[Moonlight]

*sighs*

Tricks, has your read on Zeph changed at all? If not, tell me why you've been townreading someone who is not lifting a finger to defend the "most Town" player according to his reads.

[Moonlight]

Boro's play looks pretty similar to what I've seen from his Town play. Or do you think he wasn't stubborn in the previous game?

As for NM, I've already explained in my wall-post what I've liked from him and how my read on him changed.

If I assumed you are Town and that there's scum on your wagon, my guess would be 4 Heads due to 533 not sitting right. That's based on a very big "if" and gut though. >_>

[Moonlight]

Hanzo wasn't stubborn in his previous games?

Apples and oranges. Boro has been consistently after you from the get-go. You didn't make a reachy case against Boro before he made his move. When he voted you, you weren't the easiest target at the time.

You're comparing two different situations in two different games from two different players. =/

[Moonlight]

9 days. Enough time to expect some fresh content from tman and Jasmine. I don't want this day to end before they can share their thoughts.

4 Heads are getting close to needing a prod.

[Moonlight]

I'm very interested in mastin's take on Tricks' more recent posts. I can share my thoughts on NM's push, but I'd be wasting a chance to get a better read on someone who shares theirs first.

[Moonlight]

Ah, but there is. It's one of the things that became a defining trait of my first alt, even. Mastin played seriously, but I enjoyed my games on my alt more because they were more casual. (When said alt became more serious, I discontinued playing on it for that reason.) Playing without the stress or feeling of obligation is incredibly soothing. I play offsite on a site that does take mafia seriously, but at the same time, is friendly and more casual. The game at its most serious over there is a game at an average level on here, meaning that I feel quite relaxed.

Not only is it a stress reliever, but it also helps my accuracy, I've found. Pressure to be right ironically increases the chances of being wrong. /rambling.

This is kind of a derail, but I want to ask: why do most people give a fuck about "what is expected"?

All that "pressure", all that "obligation" is a construct inside our own heads. I play for fun, and I also play to win. No compromises. If someone expects me to play differently as Town, I am not going to make an alt and run away from the problem. That would be an endless cycle that would lead to nothing in the end. Whoever expects of me shall simply have to be disappointed.

It could be scum glad to see first-hand how they're getting caught, or town glad to see first-hand how I come to conclusions even if they're wrong (perhaps even a thrill at seeing me be wrong), but overall, it's probably just hero worship in effect and not alignment indicative. (Though my gut-reaction to it would be scum glad to see how they've been caught.)

Hero worship? I'm not idolizing you, mastin. I've taken an interest in you after finding your academy thread and I'm enjoying the chance of finally getting to play with you.

That, and a touch of thrill at you being wrong at the time.

[Moonlight]

Elite? Is there some objective scale that measures "player skill" that I'm not aware of?

I treat mastin as I'd treat anyone I've never played with before. Reputation means nothing, and I say this because I had quite the rep myself on another site and it meant nothing to me there as well. Experience doesn't tell you how much one has learned from it.

My interest in her comes purely from how she treats the game, I am not familiar with how she plays and I'm curious to experience that.

/end derail

Regarding Tricks: many of his recent posts bring me sooo close to waffling on my read on him. If I squint my eyes hard enough, I can almost make out a stubborn Townie that refuses to deal with the situation that his play is being widely scumread.

But a large part of that is me

wanting

to townread him: bias. No matter how hard I try to, I cannot excuse his huge AtE after I voted him. He is aware of how waffly I get in such situations, and I believe he wanted to capitalize on that weakness.

[Moonlight]

*thinks about mastin's rambling stuff*

Spoiler: His thoughts

I suppose how I'm being perceived would matter to me if it was by someone I consider important. The community as a whole is not something I consider important enough, not yet at least. Maybe that'll change, but for the moment I can put myself in those shoes by imagining myself not meeting the expectations of someone whose play I look up to.

My own reads are similar...ish.

10 -
9 -
8 - The_Ascended
7 - NM & Boro
6 - Baezu
5 - 4 Heads & midget
4 - Finglove & tman
3 - idk & Jasmine
2 - Zeph
1 - Tricks
0 -

0 = Lynch this no matter what, 10 = Never, ever, ever lynch this, 1-9 = Everything in-between.

Strange. I usually have a 9 by this point and don't have that many people below 5. Lurking in this one makes me more uneasy than usual too.

Zeph's last post puzzles me. I can't tell if it's distancing or if these two can't be scum together (because who would notice their buddy's posts so late?).

[Moonlight]

Jasmine's lack of effort upsets me. Not enough to want her lynched over Tricks today, but it's either her or Zeph next.

It's times like this that I wish we could lynch multiple people at once. >_<

[Moonlight]

Also, I don't think I'll bother repeating myself when it comes to Tricks. He must have at least skimmed through my huge wall, in which I have pointed out which posts by him make him scumread him, and his replies are not convincing.

I don't think this is Town-him being stubborn, it's scum-him being caught and not knowing how to escape.

[Moonlight]

Hm? Sorry, no. I flail when I don't know how to escape.

One thing has me curious, though. I'm going to be lynched, neh? So why aren't you scumhunting elsewhere? Why are you so content with my death and no further information?

Sure, you've commented on other people, but you haven't actually questioned.

And I really don't like your reaction to the implication that you could be scum earlier. After my death, I would seriously look into Moonlight's play, @Town.

You really aren't paying any attention to what I've been saying. =/ I'm waiting for your flip before I scumhunt elsewhere, not to mention I have already stated that I'm scumreading Zeph and Jasmine, making your whole point invalid.

Your buddy will have to shoot me, I'm afraid. But prove me wrong, try to get me lynched, whoever you are. I am fucking obvious when I'm Town and this game is no different, despite the doubts that go around for whatever reason.

Bring it on.

[Moonlight]

You really aren't paying any attention to what I've been saying. =/ I'm waiting for your flip before I scumhunt elsewhere, not to mention I have already stated that I'm scumreading Zeph and Jasmine, making your whole point invalid.

LOL what? Just because you have further scumreads doesn't mean you're scumhunting elsewhere. Why would you give up after you've got me? That doesn't make sense. Set up town for D2. Get them ready. Town doesn't give in. It doesn't even make sense to wait for my flip. My point isn't invalid, you

haven't

been scumhunting elsewhere. You've got two further scumreads - so what? You're not exploring them. I've paid close attention to everything you've said, and it's not sitting right with me as town.

tl;dr

I have been paying attention to what you've been saying.

Why would you wait for my flip?

My point isn't invalid - having scumreads =/= scumhunting - scum can easily BS their reads.

I have already pointed fingers at Zeph and Jasmine. What am I supposed to do when they ignore me, vote them so you can escape your lynch?

I don't need to give anyone any directions. That's not me giving up, that's me trusting that my team knows where to go from here. It

does

make sense to wait for your flip, because it changes

everything

.

[Moonlight]

Exactly. The one thing I can use is my vote, but I believe it's currently on scum, so why the fuck would I move it? It's also more telling if I do

not

question those I want to get a better read on, so I can see what they're going to do about Tricks' wagon on their own.

I'm amazed by Tricks' nerve though. I think he knows he's full of it when it comes to me being scum in this game, yet he still does it, not giving a fuck about how bad it makes him look. That's the one thing that makes me uneasy about my read on him at the moment, is he really this obvious?

[Moonlight]

Then again, he might have figured he already looks horrible so he's going all the way. That's probably it.

Keep it coming.

[Moonlight]

I'm off to bed, but first I want to remind everyone that the plurality lynch is no longer in effect.

When I wake up I want to see posts by Jasmine, 4 Heads, idk or tman's replacement and they'd better not be prod dodges and such. Play the damn game.

[Moonlight]

You're certain I'm scum, neh? That's as good as a scum flip.

Wrong. You fucking know me better than that. No matter how confident I am, there's always some teeny tiny doubt. ALWAYS. I'm not sure I've caught scum, but I'm quite confident I have and I need that flip to proceed.

The only questions I have to ask are with regards to you, but it's better if I do

not

ask them so I can see what those players are going to do on their own.

What do you want from me, ask questions instead of saying we aren't posting, we're here, well I'm here.

You are unbelievable. What the hell is wrong with you? You're witnessing your strongest town read getting close to a lynch and you're just sitting there without voting for someone else?

I think I know who to go after on D2 regardless of Tricks' flip.

[Moonlight]

Why is your vote not on Baezu then? Why were you waiting until now to bring that post back to attention?

Your "case" is so weak and you're not even bothering to analyze Baezu's posts after that point.

I wish we could lynch both you and Tricks at the same time. Meanwhile, you should be considering me for a NK, because I won't rest until you're lynched with how you've been playing. And keep in mind that both teams might shoot me, resulting in me staying alive instead.

Good luck WIFOMing yourselves, scumfucks.

[Moonlight]

I wanted to ask why you haven't put him there, but then I thought you were worried about him self-hammering too early.

I also want to see more from the inactive ones and tman's replacement might bring a new perspective into the game, but if we get too close to the deadline it can't be helped. >_< Still got 5 days or so, so I think we should wait a bit.

[Moonlight]

Looks like we'll also need a replacement for 4 Heads unless they post in the next 5 hours. =/

[Moonlight]

I would agree with Boro if Zeph did this without being asked first and if he coupled that list with a vote, and that's not the case.

He ignored both NM and me and even implied my questions to him are useless. He is being impossible to work with and I want to believe he's doing that on purpose, because the alternative is that he is a Townie who only cares about surviving instead of catching scum. I'll never want to believe that about anyone.

[Moonlight]

I saw that coming. If only the progression of your read on me felt natural, you could actually hope you can mislynch me.

Problem is, it's not natural. You've gone from "after I die, treat Moon as confTown" to "Moon is scum" based on what? Me not believing that the rest of this Town needs my help to find scum after your flip.

You've disappointed me. =/ I was looking forward to seeing what you'd do and this is just weak.

[Moonlight]

Also, have fun providing reasoning as to how I would taunt the other team to shoot me if I was scum.

[Moonlight]

Let me make this clear: as scum, what my instincts push me towards is control. I assume that's something most of you should be able to relate to. I'd need to feel I'm a puppeteer, deceiving the Town into doing what I want.

Taunting for a NK is something that goes against my instinct. I'd be pushing towards something I have zero control over, because I wouldn't control the doctor or the other team's NK and it would be impossible for me to do unless I evolved as a player.

Tricks' vote is extremely flattering to me right now. xD

[Moonlight]

^ "Hope". I don't rely on "hope" as scum for no reason, but that's something only I know.

I'm very curious to see Tricks' reasoning behind his scumread on me. If he is somehow Town, his refusal to work with anyone is something completely new and a massive degrade to his Town play, so I can't see him as Town in this one.

midget and Finglove look townier with their latest posts, by the way.

[Moonlight]

So where are you Tricks? What was it that triggered your bite after all your barking? Me calling you a scumfuck? Or waiting for the inactive ones to speak up before ending the day? Is your buddy among them?

Come out, you manipulative shit and answer me. Tell me why I'm scum and how the fuck you can have an issue with me "not doing any scumhunting" while all you do is cry about how you're not scum, evading questions and not doing any scumhunting yourself.

[Moonlight]

I'm currently fluctuating between anger and disbelief. He has the cheek to call me scum. Him, me. In this game.

I'm considering taking my vote off to hammer him later, just so I can enjoy the red text that will accompany his username during the flip even more. -_-

[Moonlight]

@MOD:

Requesting a prod for YurikoJasmine.

[Moonlight]

I'm not that good an actor, really. >_<

I've had enough of this bullshit. Whenever I'm Town, I am told I am Town as fuck, because I'm that transparent. If any of you have any doubts, stop pussy footing and come at me already. It's as good as a scumclaim to me. So far there's Tricks and Zeph, I have a nagging suspicion that Jasmine's #3, but who's #4, huh? Come out, don't be shy.

[Moonlight]

Thanks, NM.

Tricks, if you somehow flip Town, I won't be tolerating any lectures from you on how to work with Town ever again. Your audacity is something else and I HOPE you did this as scum looking to frustrate the Town, in which case you may take pleasure in your little victory, job well done.

[Moonlight]

Excuse me for my acidity, I don't react well when my back is accused of dulling someone's knife.

[Moonlight]

Of course you'd keep me alive. Of course.

Tricks' flip had me re-examine my townread on The_Ascended, not because of mastin, like Tricks suggested, but because Pasch didn't show how his townread on Tricks switched. So much for that.

If Zeph is scum, would he shoot me in the first night after my promise to get back at him for his atrocious play, or would he keep me alive and hope I waffle?

The only townread that's solid for me is Boro now. Baezu has my attention, mostly because I have a bad feeling that if she was scum, she would shoot The_Ascended even with (or even based on) their townread on her. That's pure gut though and something I can't act upon, so...

VOTE: Zeph

[Moonlight]

You townread me, you scumread Zeph, I'm voting Zeph, but you don't form a proper wagon.

I guess working with someone else is an alien concept to some people. midget's in my null pile still, so I don't feel like changing my vote.

[Moonlight]

That shows why midget's play is poor, to which I can agree with. I still don't see scum motivation like I see with Zeph, who has the nerve to call people scum without ever voting.

The more I think about it, the more sense it makes for him to do that as newbscum in order to distance from his buddy.

[Moonlight]

Wow. Baezu is Zeph's buddy? I see, his whole thing against you without voting was distancing. You can't really be thinking I am scum in this one after having witnessed my scum play in your game.

If I get lynched, go for Zeph and Baezu, please.

[Moonlight]

And NS replaced Jasmine, right? Fantastic, lynch him too after you're done with Zeph and Baezu.

If I'm going down, I'm taking 3 scum with me. I'm happy. :3

[Moonlight]

Also,

Hmmm. Why would they keep you alive moon? You're essentially conftown

Excuse me? How the flying fuck am I confTown? Based on what? Reads? Don't make me laugh.

[Moonlight]

But wait, there's more!

Zeph's posting do sort of look like moonlights in the game I modded where he gave up. It sucks to be caught as scum and easy to just buckle over. I know those signs. I've felt the same way before. It's as if the game is no longer fun and you're just waiting to die. Sorry, Zeph. You're a good player - you just got caught.

What's up, Baezu? What's with the change of heart now that a Zeph lynch is on the table more seriously than ever before? You feel threatened, that's what.

[Moonlight]

I still can't believe that scum would come knocking on my door so obviously. It's so good that I'm starting to wonder if it's too good to be true. Good god is Baezu's post bad, and she said that

mine

reeks. xD

I'm going to lose faith in humanity if I get lynched today with this bullshit happening right before me.

[Moonlight]

Was this really the master plan? Kill the 2 slots I can work with, leave Boro who I do

not

work well with as my only solid read, then mislynch me?

You magnificent bastards. Kudos, nicely done and all. Just watch what's going to happen to you if I flip and everyone knows my posts are genuine.

This is a Town victory in the making, even if I die for it.

[Moonlight]

But what I'm really looking forward to seeing before any of that is how Zeph will make an excuse for no longer scumreading Baezu and come after me instead.

[Moonlight]

Thank you for making sense, Finglove, it seems to be a scarcity sometimes. I agree, Baezu and NS are probably not scum together, but I do believe they're simply on different teams. One of them (probably Baezu) is simply scum with Zeph and they don't like my push in the slightest. :p

I was never confTown, before or after a flip. I don't even want to try to understand how one could call me that.

Keep in mind that Baezu's vote came just after 781 and I hope you'll see where I'm coming from.

[Moonlight]

midget, I've never seen your scumplay, so I can't be confident in reading you, but this is probably not it. You're after someone no one else is after. You're not building a case, you simply state that idk is flying under the radar, while there are other, probably more serious matters at hand. Your vote is unlikely to result in a wagon.

I don't mean to discourage you from getting a better read on idk, but I'd be lying if I said I like your way of doing that. There are only 10 of us left, 4 of which are scum. I'm not looking at this as a 6:2:2, I'm looking at it as a 6:4 because that's what it is. If we mislynch today, we're so fucked if there are Town casualties in the second night.

We need to come together as a Town. Right now, Baezu and NS are against me being against Zeph. You'll need to choose a side and I can only hope you'll pick the right one.

Can we please win this?

[Moonlight]

And yes, I am openly appealing to emotion. Deal with it.

[Moonlight]

I'm off to bed, but not before reminding everyone that we need 6 votes for a lynch. And we're only 6 Townies, so unless one scum pair helps us lynch another, we need to come together if we want to still have a fighting chance.

[Moonlight]

I'm gonna wait for Zeph to report in before deciding whether to join his wagon.

Last visited: Wed May 21, 2014 7:35 am

Yeah, good luck with that.

Why do you even need to see how he responds to this? He'll obviously "change his mind" about his read on Baezu, decide that I'm scum and hop on the wagon. Look at his D1 play, look at Baezu's interactions with him on that day, look at everything that is crystal clear to me but for some reason everyone else seems to be oblivious about.

If we lose, it's going to be because some of you are not doing work that needs to be done. Start paying attention to this game, PLEASE.

[Moonlight]

This is where I'm at right now:

Town:

Boro, midget, Finglove, idk, Mr Glidder

Scum:

Zeph with Baezu, NS with 4 Heads.

Boro I'm quite confident about. midget and Finglove also seem very towny since late D1, and idk's and Glidder's posts on D2 ring quite well.

4 Heads is a slot I initially townread, then I had some doubts about. I'm placing that slot in scum through process of elimination and if I'm wrong about a read, it's probably that one instead of idk or Glidder. But I think I've got this right.

[Moonlight]

For those too lazy to check the votes:

randomidget (1) - Mr Glidder
idk (0) -
Nobody Special

YurikoJasmine

(0) -
Moonlight (2) - Baezu, Nobody Special
4 Heads of Insanity (0) -
Mr Glidder

tman2nd

(0) -
Finglove (0) -
Baezu (0) -
BoroPhil (1) - Finglove
Zephyrus (3) - Moonlight, idk, randomidget

Not voting (3) - 4 Heads of Insanity, BoroPhil, Zephyrus

We need 6 votes to lynch.

[Moonlight]

Continuing with more thoughts of mine: it's unlikely that Tricks' wagon was completely scum-free, it was a perfect chance for scum to get major towncred in case he was on the other scum team, and I believe that Baezu's push on Tricks counted on that.

It's really hard to scumread her based on her early D1 play, but her D2 intro was simply awful. She should know better than regarding me confTown at any point, and that me not getting NK'd could simply have come out of fear that a Doc would protect me, so no one bothered to shoot me. She jumped to the conclusion that I must be scum because of my intro, which I can't find anything bad about. I was scumreading Zeph and being wrong about Tricks made me re-examine all my reads, but I reached the same conclusion: that guy's not Town in this one.

Speaking of Tricks, I believe that the formation of a townblock was a huge threat to scum, and it's part of the reason I had second thoughts on 4 Heads (Viomi hated the idea). And right now, a good townblock is the only thing that can save us after the flip and NKs.

[Moonlight]

That's the idea. We'll need to eventually wonder if our townreads on each other are wrong, but that's a headache for D3 and on in my opinion. Zeph's play is the one that sticks out the most for me, NS is lurkish and doesn't post a lot as either alignment, so I'm a bit more hesitant about reading him.

If we mislynch today, we're pretty screwed anyway so I won't get into that. On the flip side, now that our numbers are dwindling, the scum are faced with the following, delicious, WIFOMy dilemma:

"If the other team expect us to kill another Townie in the second night, they might try to shoot us to get an early advantage now that Town is toast".

This game is going to be a headache for scum too. And that dilemma becomes even more serious for them if we lynch one of them today!

[Moonlight]

Baezu's vote puts Zeph at L-1. (Meanwhile, I keep telling myself that her post is a blatant appeal to emotion from scum, but the possibility that I've been horribly wrong somewhere gnaws at me regardless.)

@Boro: He was sick last time we talked and we're still friends. =P I get upset easily but I never hold grudges, especially over a game.

What's your read on the situation here other than those thoughts? What do you think of Baezu and NS?

[Moonlight]

I wasn't the popular wagon at any stage though.

Since Zeph shows no signs of life, I'll play devil's advocate for him. The one thing I can find in his defense is his absence.

If I was scum, even if I had to go V/LA, I would try my best to check the thread once in a while to see how my buddy is doing. Even if I trusted my buddy completely to not let Town lynch someone who's not responding, I'd still hate to leave something out of my control.

Zeph and I are different people of course, but the lack of his presence unsettles me when it comes to reading him, despite finding his play very scummy.

(This whole defense is moot if he is cunning enough to be checking the thread while logged out though.)

[Moonlight]

@MOD:

Requesting prods/replacements for 4 Heads and Zephyrus.

And was Kublai Khan notified about this game? =/

[Moonlight]

I'd be lying if I said I didn't consider switching my vote to Baezu, but if she is scum the timing of her vote on me makes Zeph look like a probable buddy, so I didn't bother.

I'm looking forward to hearing from those replacing in.

[Moonlight]

It just occurred to me: if Zeph is scum, it's very likely that his buddy was on Tricks' wagon. That explains his reluctance to vote and how his read on Tricks changed unnaturally. He wanted that lynch, but he also didn't want to be on the same wagon as his buddy.

I know I'm biased because of Baezu's vote, but it fits so beautifully. On the other hand, I'm also having my "too good to be true" moments and I'm wondering if I'm missing something and what it is.

Other than that, I like what I see from idk and Finglove, which makes me feel good about my latest reads list. If it's not totally accurate, I gotta be on the right track at least. >_<

[Moonlight]

On that note, Boro was on that wagon too and he suggested a Baezu lynch instead of Zeph, so I'm

very

confident that there is exactly one scum whose username starts with B.

I just hope I've got the right one. >_>

[Moonlight]

And I use "exactly" instead of "at least" because it makes no sense for the other scum team to defend Zeph whatsoever.

[Moonlight]

Boro, if Baezu is scum, can you explain how you imagine her D2 play making sense if Zeph is not her buddy? What did she have to gain by wanting me gone instead of Zeph?

[Moonlight]

Baezu's 857 makes me believe even more strongly in her being Zeph's buddy. How does Zeph not seem scummy on re-reading? How is his reluctance to vote for those he finds scummy explained from a Town perspective?

Boro is straightforward and he continued to go after her. Baezu is buddying him now that I'm looking at them both as a potential buddy to Zeph. If she was Town, I would at least expect her to comment on my theory and examine a scum-Boro option, but she's not doing that.

As for her Finglove vote, "agrees with Town too much" is a painful reminder to what happened to Tricks. Him and I ended up being 2 Townies that tried to work together. >_<

[Moonlight]

Let me repeat myself: unless someone can give me a plausible explanation as to how Zeph's reluctance to vote can come from Town, I have every reason to believe he didn't want to join the same wagon as his buddy.

Can someone point out where I'm wrong with this? I am not against a Baezu lynch, just because I'm getting more confident as the Day goes on that she is Zeph's buddy.

[Moonlight]

What if Baezu's defensiveness comes from her knowing that her lynch means Town loses?

What if the shift from Zeph to Baezu is the product of manipulation by Zeph's buddy?

I don't like this. >_< Baezu's posts are... strange. Finglove's "what the hell?" sums it up. She's all over the place and she's not doing herself any favors, so either she is really bad at being scum or she's Town and her vote on me came from "paranoia".

[Moonlight]

And yes, this is me wondering if I've got the wrong "B".

[Moonlight]

"Town" has a double meaning. One of them is the alignment, but I've also seen it used as the sum of all the alive players regardless of alignment. So no, it's not necessarily a slip.

[Moonlight]

I actually built a case on Baezu couple of post back where Moonlight so kindly help defend against her. ISO that if anyone wants to take a look at it. The case still stands up until now, all points I made since then is still occurring or has been occurring from her.

I would also like Baezu to remark on this case.

Post 376

Bolded... well, see for yourselves.

God damn it, as soon as I explore the option of Town-Baezu my eye catches gems like this one. This screams newbscum distancing the way I read it.

[Moonlight]

I hope we get replacements soon. If I waffle again, please tell me to shut up. >_> I'm fine with either Baezu or Zeph, I'm as confident as I can be that they're scum together.

[Moonlight]

What a surprise, Zeph's replacement is threatened by Town working together and he likes Baezu's posts. I'm shocked. =P

[Moonlight]

Glidder's last post makes me happy about his slot. I think I hit the jackpot with predicting Zeph/rinoe with Baezu and NS with 4 Heads as scum.

Only question is: rinoe or Baezu? The latter has practically given up with her last posts, and it doesn't feel like Town giving up. I feel kinda bad for rinoe, he has replaced in and is trying quite hard. I wish he was Town. =/

[Moonlight]

I suppose I'll move to the wagon with most votes. This is L-2.

VOTE: Baezu

[Moonlight]

I'm quite amused at how my gender defaults to feminine to some people.

Yes, keep scumreading me. Go on, make my day. I'm the paragon of Towniness in this game and you'll never take me down. I want you to bury yourself deeper and deeper, because I trust my teammates to see you for what you are.

[Moonlight]

Credit where it's due though: if reinoe was on Zeph's slot from the start of the game, I think Baezu and him would have had a great chance at winning this.

[Moonlight]

reinoe is doing amazingly well with what he's got (a fucking terrible predecessor in his slot). He is trying to cause strife among the townblock-in-the-making and sees scum motivation where there is none. None of what I have posted is fake, including my appeals to emotion.

Finglove is being cautious as he should be, it's precisely the kind of caution I expect from a Townie in what is basically MYLO for us.

And while that caution appeals to me, I deem it unnecessary at the same time. Baezu has given up, reinoe is in the unlucky situation where he is trying to pick up the pieces. =/