Open 561: Farmer's Market (Game Over)

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Fruit to the person below you just gets rid of a nightkill.

I still think doing the fruit-circle on two nights is the optimal strategy, we just gotta work out which nights.

Anyway, on topic

Vote TSO

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Yeah.

Anyway, the best we can hope for is we prevent two night kills at night. That means we have to win in the day. Everyone post once that they're on board for targeting below them (i'm on aronis), then we shut up about it because it's taking up space needlessly.

I have no idea how to win in the day. Dangit.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

I'm such a sheeples.

VOTE: innocent villager

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

I was thinking about this, and it's risky. And it's also a bit silly. I was focusing on getting an extra lynch and it's pretty much impossible.

Hayato, what about the information an extra lynch would give? What about the information we get from the people who would have died? "Information" is so nebulous it's not really worth it.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Anyway looking at the people who jumped onto the wagon.

VOTE: the bulge

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Hayato, we'll have 10 people tonight. If we make giving fruit optional we could get some people not using their fruit, we get some people recieving fruit from many people (some of which could be scum lying), and we could get one scum claiming to give fruit to the other. Sure there's some information in there, but there's a shit-ton of noise as well, so it's incredibly unlikely we get any useful information.

However, one mafia by themselves has issues. If we do get a mafia lynch today we can make it optional, I think.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

About your plan, not quite. Any two where one gave fruit to the other CAN be scum together because the first kills and claims giving fruit to the second.

So yeah, I'd say it should be optional if we lynch mafia today but not otherwise.

About my vote, I distrust everyone on your wagon. Votes for something that is obviously dependent on playstyle instead of alignment is horrible for town, and bulge is pushing you the most suspiciously.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

I think he actually believes his strategy is optimal. I really don't think he realizes our strategy is optimal and is trying to get us to do something suboptimal as scum. His proposal is completely alignment neutral.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

I'm not voting you to "further my plan", I'm voting you because I think you are scum. Where did this assumption come from? Your plan makes it easier for scum early-game, so I think you are scum. It's that simple. This is nothing but OMGUS.

I'm not pushing for his lynch, I'm pushing my plan.
Also, isn't voting for me based on only this also dependent on playstyle instead of alignment?

So you're voting without pushing for a lynch? Instead, you're pushing your plan? Why exactly aren't you trying to lynch him if you think he's scum?

Separating playstyle (what a player would think, regardless of alignment) from alignment (what the player is doing because they're town/mafia) is pretty much the whole point of mafia, and thus any argument where mafia can bring it down to pure-playstyle (theory questions) is ideal for them. So I think trying to bring the game to playstyle dependent stuff (like which night plan is better) is suspicious.
Voting for you is based on how you did your vote on hayato. Your vote looked like "he's proposing something suboptimal, he's scum" with no real thoughts beyond that. The fact you're pushing the superiority of our plan and not anything else related to hayato, while still calling him scum, is bad.

About your plan, not quite. Any two where one gave fruit to the other CAN be scum together because the first kills and claims giving fruit to the second.

Yep.

But your plan has this problem also.

Sure. But our plan has less holes elsewhere for them to exploit this - if someone dies either the person above them is scum or scum gave fruit to one another. Like, your plan relies on scum mis-stepping to be better than our plan tbh. I don't think this is a good assumption to make. Hmm. You know, I can't actually see whats wrong with it right now. Dangit. I need to go way more in-depth...

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Here's what points to you being mafia.

1) Your "playstyle" seems to be trying to keep us with no player information, which is indicative of scum. We lose out a lot by discussing how we use the fruit all day then having to compromise deadline lynch, and you seem to have 0 intention of talking about anything but the fruit.
2) You've decided he's scum to be lynched really fast.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

You don't want a really fast lynch, you've decided really fast on a lynch.

So piggybacking off someone else's logic means you don't agree with them on the conclusion?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

I kinda see what hayato is planning.

But yeah, I say we just run it the other way. There aren't enough people who get it for us to not just get wiped out at night and screwed over.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Anyway hayato your example doesn't actually make sense. For instance, we have 7 people in that list N3 and 5 people D4. One died, sure, but where did the other go?

Bulge, the reason hayato doesn't actually agree with me is because he's scum? Ummm, okay?

And the fact bulge is trying to undermine my vote with my arguments is weirding me out. Uhhh, math is ALSO over-focusing on the fruits.

VOTE: Mathbandit

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Bulge might be scum I'm just worried I could be confbiasing it because some of his stuff weirds me out.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Hello fishy and fitz. Welcome to stupid setup speculation.

Math, are you 100% sure the other plan is optimal?

I think by this point we have to go with hayato's plan because we aren't finding scum atm. Also, unfailing fruit circle plan IS a subset of hayato's plan, so yeah.

Also, bulge just looks like scum to me.

VOTE: The Bulge

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Assuming you mean go with the list order plan but don't make it mandatory...

1) Scum can lie about giving fruit. Read the setup. You are not informed of how much fruit you received. Multiple people can give to the same player and the recipient won't be notified of it.

This is weird. When you look back, TSO and I both completely misunderstood hayato's plan. Bulge didn't initially then DID in his later post? What?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Also, TSO, I don't think aronis is scum. He's right, idiocy and scum-ness are not linked. It's not a ploy by him to make everyone overlook him because he's being dumb.

Could you give why you think he's scum if it's something else?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Any reason to vote me?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

If you want to be playing the game where we find scum and lynch them, i've found scum with bulge, help me lynch him?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Because everything looks like it could have come from scum-bulge.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Assuming you mean go with the list order plan but don't make it mandatory...

1) Scum can lie about giving fruit. Read the setup. You are not informed of how much fruit you received. Multiple people can give to the same player and the recipient won't be notified of it.

This is weird. When you look back, TSO and I both completely misunderstood hayato's plan. Bulge didn't initially then DID in his later post? What?

I don't understand this... what are you trying to say? That I didn't understand at first, or that I did? Either way, how is this so strange?

You understood his point at first, then your second post implies that you didn't. How does multiple fruit happen if we "go with the list order plan but don't make it mandatory?"

About playstyle versus alignment, there's 3 Sivs. Town-Siv, who got a town role pm. Scum-Siv, who got a scum role pm, and Null-Siv, who didn't get any role pm at all. Anything null-siv says has to be thrown out in regards to alignment. That's all my playstyle/alignment malarkey comes down to.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Alright, time to go at the case.

Um. Looking over this, apparently I think bulge is an absolute moron. And I'm also addressing this to him. Welp.

Big long spoilered case about me jumping suddenly to hayato's plan

#79 is me saying "The info from hayato's plan is better, but nobody besides us gets the plan so the information will go completely to waste if we do it because we'll die in the interim." Also #103 WAS fairly facetious. At this rate, we'll still be talking down to hayato about how bad his plan is and we'll no-lynch.

Anyway looking at the people who jumped onto the wagon.

VOTE: the bulge

It starts here. Obviously. Doesn't bother me too much because ok, fair enough, wagons can be scummy. Still wondering what makes me scummier than the other two, though...

You weren't the first on it, and you most aggressively pushed our plan as opposed to looking at hayato's. Aronis just didn't get it but he was trying to look at hayato's idea. TSO was the first onto the wagon and voting hayato wasn't the first thing on his mind.

About my vote, I distrust everyone on your wagon. Votes for something that is obviously dependent on playstyle instead of alignment is horrible for town, and bulge is pushing you the most suspiciously.

Oh now I get it! I'm scum because... I followed through with my vote?

I'm not voting you to "further my plan", I'm voting you because I think you are scum. Where did this assumption come from? Your plan makes it easier for scum early-game, so I think you are scum. It's that simple. This is nothing but OMGUS.

I'm not pushing for his lynch, I'm pushing my plan.
Also, isn't voting for me based on only this also dependent on playstyle instead of alignment?

So you're voting without pushing for a lynch? Instead, you're pushing your plan? Why exactly aren't you trying to lynch him if you think he's scum?

But I thought I was scum for backing myself up? Now you want me to give more proof? Hm.
Also, there's nothing wrong with voting without explicitly pushing for a lynch, especially this early in the game.

Basically, your vote was a gesture so you could appear to be participating while driving us all into endless setup speculation and madness!

Here's what points to you being mafia.

1) Your "playstyle" seems to be trying to keep us with no player information, which is indicative of scum. We lose out a lot by discussing how we use the fruit all day then having to compromise deadline lynch, and you seem to have 0 intention of talking about anything but the fruit.
2) You've decided he's scum to be lynched really fast.

I still stand by the fact that these are weak-ass reasons. Night actions are extremely important, and we hadn't decided on anything. Only scum would want strategy discussion to stop.

Oh, Now I see why you ran the two spoilers. This makes NO sense next to what you said in the other one. I was "waiting for the opportunity to jump onto hayato's plan." Where does this opportunity come from if the strategy discussion stops?

At the point I said this, I was fairly firmly in the camp that compulsory circle of fruit was the best. So were the majority of people. Why have all the pointless discussion when it's obvious what we're gonna do at night? IMO, it's more likely that scum want a large pointless strategy discussion to the exclusion of all else. You'll note I did keep talking about strategy despite voting you.

Bulge might be scum I'm just worried I could be confbiasing it because some of his stuff weirds me out.

Glad you acknowledge your reasons are weak. "Weird" is not a scumtell. It is, believe it or not, a playstyle issue. If I'm not mistaken

I'm not

, you strongly advocated against voting based on playstyle. And this is exactly what you're doing here.

Okaay. I think I addressed the whole playstyle thing in last post. And this is ALSO confbias, if you're even town. What exactly are you addressing with this post? You have no idea what I meant by "weirds me out" do you? (Tbf, I'm not even 100% sure I get it. You're also not sure what I'm talking about with playstyle based on what you put into this case... so yeah, I really dislike that you're trying to wreck my arguments with my own arguments misapplied. Could give examples but too lazy atm.

The mindset behind that post was "when I look at bulge, everything looks like scum... am I confbiasing?" The later posts were "When I look at bulge, everything looks like scum... IDGAF he's probably scum."

Assuming you mean go with the list order plan but don't make it mandatory...

1) Scum can lie about giving fruit. Read the setup. You are not informed of how much fruit you received. Multiple people can give to the same player and the recipient won't be notified of it.

This is weird. When you look back, TSO and I both completely misunderstood hayato's plan. Bulge didn't initially then DID in his later post? What?

Still don't understand this at all. See my last post.

Also, bulge just looks like scum to me.

VOTE: The Bulge

lol

If you want to be playing the game where we find scum and lynch them, i've found scum with bulge, help me lynch him?

lol

Because everything looks like it could have come from scum-bulge.

lol

Lol.

Hmm. Can someone who isn't tunneling really hard sort us out?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Also bulge is hayato still scum?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Wait, there's another one? Okays.

Nobody's mentioned it yet.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Okay, so the other one they completely ignored the fruits it looks like.

Welp.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Btw, as should be really obvious, bulge's case is not the result of him looking at my posts, responding to each one and deciding "hey, siv is scum." It's him deciding "hey, siv is scum", looking at my posts and responding to each one. I'd like to know why you actually think I'm scum?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Hayato, we'll have 10 people tonight. If we make giving fruit optional we could get some people not using their fruit, we get some people recieving fruit from many people (some of which could be scum lying), and we could get one scum claiming to give fruit to the other. Sure there's some information in there, but there's a shit-ton of noise as well, so it's incredibly unlikely we get any useful information.

However, one mafia by themselves has issues. If we do get a mafia lynch today we can make it optional, I think.

About your plan, not quite. Any two where one gave fruit to the other CAN be scum together because the first kills and claims giving fruit to the second.

So yeah, I'd say it should be optional if we lynch mafia today but not otherwise.

So I was making it absolutely clear I wanted the compulsory plan and then I swapped out of nowhere?

VOTE: The Bulge

VOTE: The Bulge

VOTE: The Bulge

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

I don't want to lose the opportunity to lynch scum by losing the argument with you.

Not talking to bulge anymore.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

I think he actually believes his strategy is optimal. I really don't think he realizes our strategy is optimal and is trying to get us to do something suboptimal as scum. His proposal is completely alignment neutral.

Why would scum try to push the optimal strategy? They wouldn't. If you think he [Bulge] "believes his strategy is optimal," then he would be siding with those pushing what he would think was the suboptimal strategy. I.e. your accusations towards the Bulge support him being town.

This is about hayato, not bulge.

The "just two nights with no-kills" is because at the time people wrongly thought it was gonna break the game. Compared to that, two nights with no-kills IS weak.

"Attacking everyone who went after hayato" what game are you reading aronis?

#80 says hayato's EXAMPLE supporting his plan doesn't make sense, not his actual plan.

The thing fitz points to bulge being town is irrelevant to alignment pretty much. Did none of you think of scum saying "LETS DO THE OPTIMUM PLAN" for towncred?

I don't agree with bulge that it's a scumtell on hayato, and he seemed to be using the plan to call hayato scum, and JUST the plan.

...

Seriously, go read the game context as well as my iso.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Bins, wtf.

So many comprehension failures.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Alright, I'm in the same realm as #79 regards plans. Hayato's plan is better assuming competency, but you lot are too much muppets to use the info we'll have by D3/D4, and I don't feel like putting the game in the hands of hayato, because I'm totally getting lynched by then. Thus, use the compulsory fruit circle.

Actually, I was gonna ask

Robo, can dead players have the alignments of everyone revealed to them?

Bulge pointing out stuff in favour of fruit circle is totally alignment neutral. It's like, 90% of the players who had spoken at that time were in favour of compulsory fruit circle. Giving reasons in favour of it takes no pretense that you aren't aligned with someone, because it's NULL-bulge speaking, not town-bulge or mafia-bulge. The votecount is easy to do and doesn't take any scum pretense. Calling out the lurkers is easy to do and doesn't take scum pretense. These aren't town-tells. Stop treating them like they are.

While an anti-town environment is good for scum, they can foster a pro-town appearance so they don't appear to be scum. A lot of what bulge has done is pro-town, but they're NOT town-tells.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

It's not just you. Fitz AND fish both had tons of points that were comprehension failure. And bulge's whole case was misrepmisrepmisrep.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Screw this.

I suck at argument, so I'm not playing your game anymore.

Haven't played with bulge before, said scum-bulge, meant just scum. It'd be a bit weird if everything bulge posted came from scum-aronis.

Bulge's case comes after he decided I'm scum, tons of stuff in there fits this. He takes points that are mostly irrelevant just to bash me.

Fitz and fish's points all look like they decided I'm scum, went at my iso for stuff that could be used to call me scummy. Idk how I do it. I say something innocuous and someone later says it's scum-siv.

Your reads are all confbiased and I can't fight that. Even if I DID have good arguments.

Being active has failed so time for plan B.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

#150 is me addressing some of the comprehension and I guess in some cases context-fails.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Idk what else to call it.

I'm not answering questions anymore because it's 1v4 and I can't keep up. Even though bulge and bins aren't really doing much, I can't deal with it.

UNVOTE: The bulge

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Idk I've been stuck in my own head for a bit too long. Don't actually have reads on anyone.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Spoiler: Siv whining about the unfairness of mafia

Hayato town.
Bins kinda town.

Bulge probably still scum.

Everyone else i don't have a clue.

Pedit: No I don't. I don't have any.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

TSO. Idk. Part of me thinks town but the rest says it's just pro-town stuff. Definitely wouldn't want to lynch him, though.

Innocent I really don't know at all. I can't tell off his two posts anything either way.

Hayato, if scum, is playing with fire in multiple ways. Continuing to do weird, against the norm stuff after he got voted initially for his plan is rather brave.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

I hate the plan and am never doing it ever ever ever.

I'm doing hayato's plan. Probably gonna give fruit tonight.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Looool.

You do realize hayato's plan where everyone decides to give fruit is identical, right?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

As far as I can tell, it's because of bulge case and because I'm an absolute asshole. Who also gets nervy. Idk. And I tunneled "obvtown" (which I still don't see lol)

Fish, what is the difference between "Everyone is given a different fruit target, and we decide ourselves whether to send fruit or not to them" where everyone decides "yes, let's give fruit" and "Everyone is given a different fruit target and they must give fruit or they're scum" and nobody deviates from it? There IS none.

Hmmmm... yeah that plan is basically suicide, so NOT actually running with that.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Fruit circle is the plan that you're running. Well, there's the compulsive fruit circle and hayato's fruit circle, but yeah.

The suicide plan was me thinking some stuff privately and then publicly stating it was a dumb idea. Idk why I posted that.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Scum get daytalk?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Wait, that's actually a legit question. Do scum get daytalk in this setup?

Robo?

Pedit: Because I'm going for mad-transparency-stream-of-consciousness crap and I realized midpost that what I was thinking was really, really, REALLY dumb.

I don't really want to go into what I was thinking because I don't really think it's in any way optimal for town.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Well, everyone randomly changing their read on me isn't gonna happen.

So yeah, just in case it does.

VOTE: The bulge

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Siv lynch is a good lynch, I think.

Considering you've spent much of the game voting with Siv...

why do you think he is a good lynch?

Um, serious question here.

Why is the bold necessary to say?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

That is a serious question.

I mean, I get why your question happens. I just... get why it happens for a different reason than you seem to do. I think. Like, "why does hayato think I'm a good lynch" is a really legitimate question.

But I wasn't talking about your question. I was talking about the bolded bit that preceded the question. Why do you need to bring up that context? It just doesn't seem necessary to me at all.

Also should probably point out that I hodgepodged a reaction test for conf-bias in you lot. And it didn't quite work as planned. Welp.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

So you are saying we didn't fall for your test, meaning maybe we aren't engaging in as much confbias as you think we are. And if you can't understand why its important for the first part of Fitz's question to be there then I don't know if any amount of explaining will make a difference.

Well...

Nobody reacted to the stuff I tried at all. And I have no idea how to interpret that.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Uh.

You know what, I actually want to self-hammer here.

Just so I can have a point made at the end of the day that'll hopefully stick. I can't see any other way to make you look at what I'm saying after I die.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

There is.

I'm not gonna get listened to after I flip b/c I look exactly like scum. So I want to self-hammer because I'm getting lynched anyway so I can have the last post of the day so there's a possibility you'll look at that in later days.

I ACTUALLY want to self-hammer. Kinda.

Bins, I will admit to just trying to screw with everyone's head earlier, but I wasn't doing it there.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Also yeah, I just want to self-hammer. I don't really want to self-hammer NOW.

VOTE: Mathbandit

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Robo, does this game have mafia daytalk?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

So you read this. You noticed this.

And yet you post this?

Although come to think of it, they could be scum together trying to coordinate a quick self-hammer to avoid further discussion.

Not sure what to make of it.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

So, math, you live in a fantasy world where nobody ever self-hammers, and the only reason anyone would say they would is that they're scum posturing for wifom.

Why is scum-siv wrong to think self-hammering is good for scum?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Well, it's obvious why math thinks I'm scum.

BUT NO! IRRATIONALITY SHALL NEVER SURRENDER TO BORING RATIONAL PLAY!

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

I think I was the guy who asked that.

I'd say definitely start tonight or tomorrow night. Probably tonight because of the difficulty of getting any info out of one dead player.

Also, my next post is gonna be a bit weird.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Okay. This kindof just clicked in my head. Sorry it doesn't really mean crap.

Well after I sheeped Siv on the buldge's wagon. This come out:

Sure. But our plan has less holes elsewhere for them to exploit this - if someone dies either the person above them is scum or scum gave fruit to one another. Like, your plan relies on scum mis-stepping to be better than our plan tbh. I don't think this is a good assumption to make. Hmm. You know, I can't actually see whats wrong with it right now. Dangit. I need to go way more in-depth...

I don't like how his opinion changes in mid text. "Your plan has holes." "Hmm...let me think." "Actually, your plan is OK". It feels like buddying. I don't know how else to describe this. Probably, the term "good cop, bad cop" fits here.

He says the other plan is better. Fake a thought process. And then says my plan is better. So that I feel happy....

Reading this, and thinking about it a bit... it's kinda valid...

Um, gonna do a comparison to bulge case.

Spoiler: Part I - The Night Strategy

I know you guys are tired of talking about this so I'll be brief.

I still think doing the fruit-circle on two nights is the optimal strategy, we just gotta work out which nights.

Anyway, the best we can hope for is we prevent two night kills at night. That means we have to win in the day. Everyone post once that they're on board for targeting below them (i'm on aronis), then we shut up about it because it's taking up space needlessly.

I was thinking about this, and it's risky. And it's also a bit silly. I was focusing on getting an extra lynch and it's pretty much impossible.

Hayato, what about the information an extra lynch would give? What about the information we get from the people who would have died? "Information" is so nebulous it's not really worth it.

I think he actually believes his strategy is optimal. I really don't think he realizes our strategy is optimal and is trying to get us to do something suboptimal as scum. His proposal is completely alignment neutral.

I kinda see what hayato is planning.

But yeah, I say we just run it the other way. There aren't enough people who get it for us to not just get wiped out at night and screwed over.

Up to this point, Siveure has made it quite clear which plan he's more keen on using. Note that this plan is clearly much harder for scum to get around. I shouldn't have to explain why, but just in case, here we go. The original plan is simply
1) everyone passes fruit to a designated target (person below is easiest way to do this)
2) if there is a night-kill, lynch anyone who claims to have screwed up in order to keep the plan airtight. Zero tolerance.
Hayato's plan leaves the door waaaay open for scum to lie and exploit the flaws in the plan. Benefits are that (if played well) we get information over more nights, but this simply does not outweigh the advantage it could give scum.

I think by this point we have to go with hayato's plan because we aren't finding scum atm. Also, unfailing fruit circle plan IS a subset of hayato's plan, so yeah.

But wait! Suddenly, we should go with hayato's plan? All for the sake of not wasting time? But weren't more people on board with the original plan?

yes.

And doesn't hayato's plan benefit scum?

yes.

And doesn't this sudden switch of opinions seem terribly lazy?

it should.

What I strongly believe happened here is this. As scum, Siveure had no choice but to go along with the town's plans. When hayato posted an alternate plan, Siveure looked at it and realized the plan would be better... for him, at least. But he couldn't instantly jump to the new plan without raising suspicion against himself, so he stuck to the original plan and waited for an opportunity to "give up" and just go with hayato's. Convenient.

(

Note:

the original proposition of a plan that helped scum was the cause of my initial suspicion for hayato as well)

That part of the case is imo total BS for two reasons

1) It's based on stuff that's just what null-siv is thinking. It could be null-siv speaking through town-siv or through scum-siv. There isn't any real way to get alignment from that, at all.
2) Bulge's interpretation of what I'm doing is completely different from my interpretation of what I'm doing. Like, when I iso'd myself after looking at his case it just didn't apply in any way at all.

With that in mind, in regards to hayato's case, when I look at my own iso I see what he's saying. Me, knowing what I meant each post, knowing I'm town, see hayato's case as pretty valid - yeah I did kinda look like I was buddying up to hayato.

So yeah... The problem is I don't know what to make of this. I kindof think he's pretty town off this... or he's just very good scum.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Also funny self-meta that i was gonna add to that.

Town-siv thinks he's obv-town.

Wait, that's wrong. Town-siv KNOWS he's obv-town, and anyone who scum-reads him is stupid and really bad at mafia or scum.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

I stopped caring about the game ages ago.

So things stalling even more actually IS lovely

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Well... I don't really have confidence in my own ability to find scum...

But your play reminds me quite a bit of some of my play.

No.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Who is a good mislynch.

Me?

Also, Yay! TSO and Bins have finally seen the light!

Wait... crap... now I might not get lynched... um...

I'll try to contribute... gimme some time to read those 11 pages again.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Yeah um,

UNVOTE: Mathbandit

while I sort stuff out.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Okay.

Hayato looks pretty town.

Bins and tso feel town to me.

IV idk but I think I go with hayato in calling him town.

Don feels like don johnson, and aronis feels like aronis. Don't want to lynch either one. (yes these are null reads, although aronis has slight townfeels)

Fitz's reads I all disagree with and I also think that's a fitz tell.

Bulge and Fish I can't be objective about but would have to say still kinda scum and screw you respectively.

Math is kiiinda scummy, but apart from anti-townness idk what to say.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Uh, sorry, math is anti-town but not really "scummy" so idk.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

This was more fun when I didn't care.

Can people start voting me again?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Bulge, there pretty much isn't any. About 90% of my stuff from like #150 to about the point where people started saying I was town is null-siv, and you just messed up reading my posts before that.

Hmm, thinking about it, if math isn't scum, I really doubt fish is. The siv wagon is collapsing, and there's a nice big other wagon on a townie, why not just go for it? Instead, he starts a wagon elsewhere due to paranoia.

With that in mind

VOTE: mathbandit

Don't really want to give an opinion on aronis until he does explain that vote.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Fish, whats the scum motivation for hayato to start sheeping me? Because I don't see it.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

The deny accountability thing doesn't really work for two reasons.

1) Neither bulge or math were really gonna get lynched at that point.
2) He wasn't really sheeping in a sneaky way - he was blatantly "I'm just sheeping siveure, I don't agree with him." There's like very little way to get away with that, no matter how far the lynch goes.

Like, fmpov scum-hayato avoids doing something like that because it raises red flags for a lot of people and there doesn't seem to be much reason for him to want to do it. Arguing that he doesn't realize it is saying he's bad, as he already got suspicion for going against "normal" behaviour.

I mean, maybe he was buddying to me, but yeah. Buddy up to siv - and make everyone else more likely to be suspicious of you. Sounds like a good plan.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Nope nobody home.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

I don't see why the TSO lynch is a thing.

Like, nearly EVERYONE is disinterested in this game, they can't all be scum. At least the guys posting without reading are posting something.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

I think that meta read is also BS, but hey, whatever works for you.

I kinda want to lynch mathbandit. We'll probably all be still here tomorrow.

Whoever hammers should tell everyone to pass fruit below them.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

So if there are 10 people in a room, you say that say, sunday is the best day of the week, 4 of them agree with you and the rest say nothing, does that mean they all agree with you?

Thats this situation.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

The point is that unless they all SAY they agree with you, you can't know for sure. You're assuming that everyone who hasn't posted on the fruit agrees with the plan, or would agree as soon as they looked. I mean, it probably won't change, but if they come back to the thread and see the last post saying "pass fruit below you or be considered scum" that'll probably affect them.

"Must clearly state before the end of the Day." Is it possible to do this if the day ends very abruptly?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Neil on a scale of 1-10 how good are you as town and as scum? (separate answers please)

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

*sigh*

Failing to check stuff off the role pms at any stage in the game is scum behaviour. Yay.

That said, agree wholeheartedly with the rest of the ice's post.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Hmm, I really didn't think #330 through.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

I had a plan based off one response, but the subjectivity of his opinion and how you could argue anything off his response, regardless of what it is, makes it essentially worthless.

#X = Post X

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

And why does the day need" to end right fucking now?"
You/Ice just joined and have not contributed anything.
Neil has just joined and not contributed anything.
TSO is in the process of being replaced.
don_johnson is on extended v/la.
Everyone else is underposting. ....

Shouldn't we see what the new blood can contribute before ending the day?

I was thinking basically this. Fitz gets townpoints.

UNVOTE: mathbandit

My vote was basically PoE. People I'm fine with lynching are don, math and... that's kindof it. Maybe aronis, but probably not. Everyone else looks either towner or just better than those two players.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Huh, guess my goodplayer reads have to change with the replacements...

bleurgh.

Idk. Also, I forgot about bulge there. I don't really have any read on him at all tbh, because I just get caught up in my first read on him...

Will try get some proper thinking done tomorrow. Sorry guys.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

@Neil, On math I think I am being opportunistic.

On don it's mostly this

I'm normally lazy.

In answer to fish, have a bad habit of forgetting to update my reads and just running with the old reads way past when I should... that's what happened with bulge in #371, and also in #103, #110, #112.

Spoiler: My slightly updated reads

Town reads:
Aronis - a lot of aronis looks like what town-siv used to be.
Neil - I liked hayato for town. If hayato was scum he was wifoming the town by doing "scummy" things, after it was proven that being "scummy" would get him voted.
Bins: This is mostly just gut. Bins feels VERY town.

Leaning town:
TSO - This is mostly based off his pro-activeness earlier on.
Fitz - This one is pretty weak. I'm not completely sure why he's leaning town, beyond gut.
Fish - Idk why fish leans town either really.

Null-Pro-town (Null, but doing what town should probably be doing):
The bulge: Every time I try to look at bulge, I see the stuff I originally noticed and then get worried as to whether I was conf-biasing that or not. That said, I don't see town-tells either - especially in the stuff pointed out earlier by fitz/fish.
Iceguy: Yeah, don't quite have enough here.

Null-weak players (Null, but not really doing what town should do)
Don johnson
Mathbandit

Scum:
Nobody.

I want to lynch in the null-weak list atm because I doubt those players can leave null-weak and I don't really have proper scumreads elsewhere.

Pedit: Hangon, looking back at it, bulge got off the wagon because math brought me to L-1, and then never revoted me. Fish was "my reads have been shit" and bins got mindscrewed .

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

So math, as town I should invent reads?

I legitimately don't have scumreads.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

You, because gun to my fruitstand.

Seriously though, probably the bulge.

Thinking about it, I probably don't really want a lynch just yet.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Probably not you right now actually.

I really don't think bulge is gonna be lynched today.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

I really don't suspect neil. At all.

Any suspicion of ice would have to be sheeping. I don't really see anything there that other people haven't pointed out.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Okay bins.

VOTE: iceguy

Total sheepliness.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

I'm not voting neil.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Partly that, partly because I don't see much to sheep. I kinda trust bins to be right. I don't trust any of the people voting neil and none of you have really good reasoning either.

Fish thinks hayato was manipulating him.
Aronis just hasn't had good reasoning for anything.
You're essentially policy lynching him. There are better people to policy lynch.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Fish, you've not really presented your reasoning beyond that "weakest point." Could you do so now?

Spoiler: Everything fish has said about hayato or neil

First let me get some of the pleasantries out of the way.
Hello TSO, and Hayato. Nice to see you both.
The rest of you I do not know yet, so Hi.

@Hayato

- every plan has a loop hole in it, if not then this wouldn’t be any fun. The chance that scum are paired up is very low, and it looks like you are trying to stall. And I hope your vote on Don was still RVS. And then you legit use an RVS vote as evidence of scum (nice attempt to discredit Bulge by calling him a newbie btw)… Only too then, within 3 posts where you pose a scenario, answer it yourself, and change your opinion, decide that maybe the scum busser has a good plan. Your idea of optional fruit giving is horrible, and you should probably see rope for suggesting it. You seriously think that getting the info off 2 night kills would be more beneficial than 3 whole days of discussion? Your vote on Bulge is bad, and you should feel bad. If you don’t think Bulge is scum, why are you voting him? No one said you are stupid, projecting a bit? I am baffled by post #94 by the way. Did you really declare you vote as serious this late in the game? RVS has been over for quite some time, and you’ve made other serious votes, why is this one more serious than the others?

Okay, this post. I guess I didn't factor it in given that it was 5 pages before your vote. And even now, looking at it I don't see what you're getting at. It looks like "Dissect his iso for anything scummy."

VOTE: Unvote

My reads have been shit lately.

VOTE: Hayato

Gotta be honest, feels like you are trying to play me by singling me out with the replace shit, also you look scummy as hell and should probably hang.

Right. I see this, I assume this is why you're voting him.

I see more scum motivation from Hayato. Would you like yo join me in lynching him? I know you want Siv, but I'm seeing more frustrated town than anything else right now. If he is scum he'll show it over time.

Sure. This is informative.

Buddying, being able to deny accountability when a person flips town because he was only following your lead.

That question really worries me because its not like you saw the reasons and disregarded them, its like you couldn't even imagine them.

Also informative given that I was the one asking this.

Neil on a scale of 1-10 how good are you as town and as scum? (separate answers please)

As town? Eh... 5. As scum? I'd say 8 or 9. I don't normally lose scum games.

Neil should know who I am. We just played a newbie game together where I spearheaded his lynch after he shittily tunneled me.

Ah yes, where you spearheaded a mislynch. It was great. I also had no time what-so-ever to put into that game unfortunately. I'd rather not remember that. But to be fair, it's not difficult to "spearhead" a mislynch with a hundred newbies... it's like bragging because you successfully convinced a group of 3 year olds that Santa exists. Weren't you town that game? I don't think bragging about spearheading a mislynch with a terrible crappy case that only went through because I wasn't around to stop it, is something to boast about personally. But whatever floats your boat, cutie.

That is quite the odd reaction to what I said. I was mearly pointing out the fained lack of recognition was slightly disingenuous since we recently played a game together where we had significant interaction, and we have played one together in the past as well. Maybe my feelings were hurt a bit because I failed to make a lasting impression on you...

Okay. So maybe they're scum because neil didn't recognize you? Cmon, thats even weaker than hayato was trying to manipulate you.

Like, at no point have you given reasoning as to why you think hayato/neil is scum, BEYOND the "trying to play me with the replace out crap."

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

VOTE: formerfish

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Okay.

I'm voting fish because afaict he's pretending to have a case on the neil/hayato slot. And #416 looks like threatening me away from questioning it. (btw, what exactly is a death tunnel? I have an idea on what it could be but it's a bit vague)

Fish. Tell me what your reasons for voting hayato were. JUST why you voted him.

I still utterly fail to see how any of the points in #423 lead to the conclusion that neil is scum. They paint a picture of him being a total waste of space, which is a decent assumption but you're over-doing the picture a lot to assume he's scum.

Fitz, why did aronis vote hayato?

Neil, don't bother looking for town/scum motivation in anyone's posts once you think you have their alignment. It's a total waste of time and only solidifies your read, regardless of whether you're right or not.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

I tried. And failed. You look it up and tell me how assuming he has reasons makes sense.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Neil. As you said, fitz is just looking to lynch you. But there is town reasoning for that. He's conf-biasing you as scum to some extent. It happens. Town does it. Scum ends up stuck in it sometimes. It doesn't mean crap as to his alignment. And I do think it's to some extent a fitz-tell.

Anti-town =/= scum but it's really, really, really hard to remember that when you think someone is scum. And that goes both ways here.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Mod, could you update the OP for replacements again, please?

TSO replacement, could you please provide your perspective on the game whenever you join?

Bins? Aronis replacement? Anyone?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Okay.

Fitz, look at what neil has posted thus far. While he has mostly posted worthless stuff, thats been partly because he is responding to you hounding him every post. It's hard to contribute meaningfully when that happens. Give him a chance.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Well, don, saving our no-kills is a silly plan because what exactly do we gain?

It's not like vig shots. You don't remove scummy players with scum nightkills. You remove the scum-decided towniest players. And the towniest players shouldn't be part of the herd.

There is an argument that this town is doing absolute crap at working out who the towniest player is and that maybe we should poll the scum, but still, we won't know their criteria and we can't ask the now decided towniest player what they think as they're dead.

I kinda want to lynch fish or bulge. Could maybe compromise onto math, don or ice if deadline seems about to hit. Do not want to lynch anyone else.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Well yeah basically. That pretty much IS why I voted you.

There's also some dislike over your play when I was the scummiest player to ever play mafia. That's why I kept voting you.

I also find a slight contradiction with how you react to someone you're voting and how you vote. Your comments on the person you vote rather imply conf-bias if town, but you've unvoted kindof easily in both cases. This is why I'm still voting you. Euck. Idk. This doesn't actually quite work...

UNVOTE: formerfish

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Oh god.

I have a couple points against a couple points neil did but it's got horrible formatting and really dont want to try match it up to the quotes right now.

Ehhhh...

Oh great, I left it on ctrl v and then accidentally overdid it.

Bleurhg.

I'll redo it. Later.

Not really in the mood to self-hammer this time tbh.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Bins is the towniest towny town I think.

I am incredibly in favour of bin's plan. The slight issue is I'm not scum so you can't do it. But if we got actual scum, yeah. DO shuffle the list each night, regardless of what plan you run tbh.

I'm not actually sure I should fight this lynch tbh. 4/5 of the people who replaced in thought I looked scummy on catching up. I kinda don't want to convince everyone I'm town, hang around to lylo, have another replacement and they vote me. Eh. If the case is based a lot on interactions with don, any chance you lynch him first?

I'm also a little aggrieved SOMEONE ELSE finds me admitting I suck at dayplay suspicious? HAVE I NOT PROVEN THAT ENOUGH? I got all the votes the first time round, I defended myself with "omg I just won't defend myself" and yeah. I SUCK at playing mafia in the day. I know I suck. How is that suspicious?

Bleurgh. I had something on bulge I wanted to see if he continued but w/e. Nowhere near enough evidence to prove it's not just coincidence yet.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Oh god. That post is enormous.

*one hour later*

Um, i'm too lazy to actually go through the rest of this lol.

Spoiler:

First to start, I'm giving everyone points to access my reads. Positive points is towniness, negative is scumminess. Knowing what we know now, as I'm rereading Page 1, I'm curious. Everybody was so quick to sheep the idea of passing fruit to the person below them, I'm bound to think scum is in there. Especially before Hayato said anything.

Don_Johnson begins the post by saying basically "there must be a good idea somewhere, I just need to step back and see if I can figure it out." I don't get the benefit of posting that, and if Don_Johnson turns out to be scum, and this was a fluff / filler post, I wouldn't be surprised to see an interesting team between TSO and him. Especially with TSO's joke post of "fruit, what fruit?" Post 5 and Post 7 respectively.

Math comes up with the plan to send the fruit to the person below them. I'm basically WIFOMing here, but as scum I can see Math doing this if they speculated on the fact that two mafia were next to each other on the list. What's more likely though, is Math as town thought this would be the perfect way to break this system and find out who scum is.

So far we have TSO and Don_Johnson with -1 points. Math with 1. Everyone else 0.

The Bulge has nothing to add, but it's RVS so that's suspected. I don't like InnocentVillager adding townie points to that post, as I can't see how you can possibly attribute town or scum tells to RVS posts with no actual content. Sounds like opportunistic scum, trying to buddy by giving away free townie points. Along with InnocentVillagers town slip that I feel was faked, the idea of mafia sending fruit and killing, makes me believe that Math isn't mafia, and that the idea of being able to break the system scared scum InnocentVillager. He now has -2 points for both of the points against him. Post 9 is the post I was referring to.

Math's response to IV's attempt at discrediting the case is townie as well, stopping others form speculating on false reasoning. That's a point for Math. TSO sheeping in Post 11 is nerve-racking, but is null in general. I wouldn't attribute scum points to that. In fact I'd probably attribute town to it, because of TSO's lack of fear with that idea. Siv's following post however, makes my ears pop up. In Post 12 Siv points out that it "only gets rid of a nightkill" as if it wasn't good enough? Then he "still thinks" doing the fruit-circle on two nights is the optimal strategy. He's discussing this, like he's ALREADY discussed it before. He then sheeps a TSO vote (I'm sure for RVS reasons) which further confirms my idea that TSO could be town. The only way Siv could have talked about this before, is during the pre-game confirmation period... which would make him scum. Slip?

Well yeah. I kinda first thought about this setup previously here Also, math thought it was the perfect way to break the setup and find out who the scum are. Compared to that, JUST getting rid of two nightkills isn't great, but it's still the "best" plan (at that point). How is the grammar confusing everyone afterwards?

TSO and Don_Johnson continuing talking to each other, semi-ignoring everyone else (noted for buddying up, potential partners depending on the flip of one or the other. See posts 13-15). The Bulge again provides needless content, pointing out the over-obvious. Now I'm taking note that The Bulge is actively not contributing, while appearing to be.

In this post, Siv looks to attribute dispair to the idea of preventing two night kills at night (why is Siv actively trying to down that idea, like it's a bad thing?) and then talks about "shutting up about it" because it's "taking up space needlessly." Normally that would be a town thing to do, if there are several pages just regarding beating the set-up and it's stopping or detracting from normal town conversation. However, being as it's been less than 24 hours, and you're only on page 1, while most people haven't even contributed yet... this seems opportunistic, or almost faking it to appear town. He wasn't stopping a distraction from becoming bigger, he was appearing to. Then the whole "I have no idea how to win in the day" thing freaks me out. Isn't that the point of Mafia? Figuring out who's scum, actively pushing people during the day phases and lynching scum? If you can't win in the day, you must win at night... which at night, in this game, that'd be the scum that would be prominent. Not town. Another slip?

I'm not quite sure what I was thinking about the distraction. I didn't conceive other plans being better than compulsory fruit circle, so there wasn't really any discussion that needed to happen so I was trying to head it off before it started. Not very well, mind you.

Bleeeeeurgh. WHY IS THIS SCUMMY. IDK WHAT IM DOING AS TOWN.

Don posts with a vote on InnocentVillager, but then Siveure sheeps the vote. With my primary suspicions on Siveure, it makes it clear one or the other is scum, not both. Either IV is, or Siv is. The sheep vote for RVS is starting a wagon, and I don't like it.

Here's where Hayato finally enters the game! I don't like the sheep vote on IV either, but then Hayato makes probably the most town post of Page 1. Hayato is the only person to have brought up the idea of breaking the system actually backfiring if scum are together here. I like how Hayato doesn't shut down the idea but rather states we should "think about this some more" which is obviously referring to the obvious sheepers of the plan.

The Bulge's response to it in post 25 is townie. He explains even if that does happen, we expose that someone is lying. If they get lynched, and flip scum, we've successfully found the other scum partner by association. It's basically a 2 for 1.

I really disliked Hayato's idea (which makes me wonder if Hayato is posting without actually thinking about what Hayato was saying, which is a town-tell IMO, scum would be more careful), but although I think Hayato spoke without thinking, what I dislike more is the quick sheeping by TSO and the Bulge.

Aronis finally makes his first appearance all game, sheeping the obvious wagon from the last two posts before his, Hayato. However instead of actually addressing what Hayato said, Aronis sums up the case in a completely misrepresenting way, and justifies his vote there with the misrepped case. Look at post 35 for more information.

I'm stopping real quick at Post 36 (Bulge's post) to say an idea. What if we had opposite days? Where like Day 1 it's give a fruit to the person below you, and Day 2 it's give fruit to the person above you? Nevermind, now that I think about it the concept would be pointless because the other mafia member would do the killing and the person above them would fake claim that they received the fruit from their partner. Continuing...

I don't get the back and forth between Hayato and Aronis. I'm not sure Hayato's point there, nor am I clear why Aronis is assuming everyone would be dead after two nights of no killing. However Aronis' confusion in post 39 reads genuine to me. Townie points awarded for that.

Siv, as scum, would make a good point to try and stop this idea of breaking the setup and stopping their team two nights in a row from killing. And there it is, hidden under the blanket of "uncertainty" and random questions that really don't support anything... post 43.

So wait what? I'd make a point against the mathbandit plan in favour of hayato? I'm supporting it in #43. The only thing in favour of hayato is IF WE LYNCH SCUM which hey, bins thinks is good right now.

Argh. I didn't do the math on how scum beats either plan that hard. No real need to.

I also noticed the sort of buddying that Siv is doing with Hayato (and appears to be working) while voting on the Bulge, the easiest to wagon (in my opinion) of the people that voted on Hayato.

Easiest to wagon how? He looked scummiest? Buddying I got no real contention with.

Hayato and TSO are bouncing back opinions on strategy, which makes sense. TSO is the type of person from my Meta with him and the games I've played, TSO will vote someone out of pure frustration. Happens often actually. What's interesting to note though, is that while this is happening, Siv again buddies up to Hayate by defending Hayate. What's interesting, and I hope someone addresses this, is that Siv says the Bulge's vote was "most suspicious." Why? I wonder if Siv will go on to address this or not, or if anyone calls him out on it. (Check out post 51, just scroll up from the link below this.)

This is robbing your words. But he looked like he was trying to pretend to contribute more than he was.

Post 53 is the first place where Siv took on the idea that the plan was his too, (the entire towns) and not just a few select others in the town. Yet earlier, he pushes that Hayato's plan was good too, and voted others who didn't like that opinion (Bulge). The Bulge makes an excellent point in proving Siv's own bias and hypocriticalness in post 54, right below Siv's.

It's not because of which plan he agreed with, it's because he pushed the guy on a plan he (and the majority) disagreed with. That's not totally playstyle.

Hayate's vote on the Bulge here kind of shows Hayate getting played by Siv, and Siv's buddying is working. Meanwhile, I have no idea why scum would ever admit to a terrible play like TSO did here, so that's more townie points from my POV.

The Bulge points out the language in post 59, "furthering my plan" as for a reason for voting him, yet doesn't realize that language came from Siv. Bulge doesn't realize Siv is playing Hayate like a violin right now, neither does Hayate. However in post 60, Bulge makes an appeal to the inactive in the game, to get conversation going. Sounds like an actual town motivated post to me. You can click here to see the posts in question.

Everything about Siv's post 62 screams fake. The case on Bulge is off centered, and stretching, and the post to Hayate that he quoted is ridiculously fake. "I can't see what's wrong right now, dangitt!!!!! I totes need to go more in depth and take some more time to realize what's going on,

because I'm not actually reading.... just posting to make myself look active, while buddying up to you.

" (Emphasis and exaggeration mine.)

Ummmm... Thats about the fruit plan hayato had.

Siv and Bulge take time bickering between Siv's hypocriticalness and Bulge's confusion for why he's being voted in the first place. Aronis unvotes in the meantime. Aronis' playstyle reminds me of lazy town, who's looking to sheep the best made case. Not really like scum, trying to mislynch.

Math comes out and nails it perfectly, stupidity does not equal scum. While I think stupid was a harsh word to use for speaking before you think, it gets the point across. Check it: here. I'm not going to lie though, reading through all of this and seeing Bulge's conclusion here made me face palm.

Don_Johnson does nothing to help him appear town with this post. Voting math for no reason, yet makes it appear like the wagon is a thing. Hayato during the mean time, proves my point of Hayato sheeping Siv, and Siv actually leading the case against Bulge here.

Siv's post 80 is again buddying up to Hayato, while turning around and making a pretty pathetic case to sheep the other votes on Math. My guess is Siv saw the Don_Johnson post voting Math, and decided to go with it, in the back of Siv's mind seeing Math as the next leading wagon. And of course if you scroll down slightly, in post 82, there goes Hayato wagging his tail and following Siv.

Watch Siv's response to Hayato asking his master why Bulge is no longer scum: here. confbias? Really? There didn't appear to be any confbias there, but rather an OMGUS vote off of somebody he was buddying. In fact, an ADMITTED OMGUS vote off of somebody else.

Aronis also is confirming my point with post 86, that Aronis isn't really reading the thread. It had already been decided that we were going with the fruit plan #1 proposed by Math. Math's post on InnocentVillager at this point would be the best vote I would have agreed with. Comparitively, no other person was nearly as scummy next to Siv than Innocent Villager. Don quickly invalidates Math's post, for no reason (literally, says nothing) but to invalidate Math's opinion. (Where's the town motivation in that post, found here?

Don's scummy level is increasing rapidly. Aeronaut has still not posted and is replaced with Bins at this point. Bins makes a good post here while catching up. Hayato's sheeping is weird, but is not unprecendented when you realize Siv's manipulation and buddying up to Hayato.

Innocentvillager did a good job of explaining himself and posting back here which made me lose a lot of my suspicion on him. At this point, Marcrell and Ashura have both been replaced by Fitz and FormerFish respectively. Neither has posted, so neither really have much opinions on them.

Notice here, the distancing between Siv and "the plan" which a few posts before this Siv was all about claiming was "our plan"... here. Siv jumps back on the Bulge for no reason more than he looks weird / scummy to him, with no real reasoning.

I'm not going to lie, when Fitz came in and placed a vote on Siv, and Siv's casual "why me?" response.. I got excited. You can check that out here. My townie sense is tingling with Fitz.

Siv starts pushing TSO to wagon with him for Bulge, and when asked by Aronis why, Siv gives the most WIFOM filled answer possible. "Everything looks like it could come from scum" while not including the obvious, "everything ALSO looks like it could come from town-Bulge."

Bulge makes an OMGUS vote, though it's understandable when Siv is able to manipulate and buddy up to enough people, that they start sheeping his vote. Bulge makes a vote here, probably (my speculation) to push the gravity of the bad case against him. TSO seems genuinely interested in a case against Siv, which shows thought and consideration. That's town points for me, since I have a good understanding of Scum-TSO and that's not him.

Make note here, that Don still is doing nothing during post 122, and is the first time Don is really adressing Siv, or the idea of Siv being scum. This post screams "I don't want to buss, but I will if I have to." It's interesting that he immediately buddies up to Fitz, which if I'm correct, is the person that just called his potential scum partner out for being scummy. Good idea to get the new replacement on your side. If they think you're town and read your posts with confbias, you might get away from any suspicions.

Siv's response to Bulge's case (which was fairly good IMO based on the information revealed) is to invalidate the Bulge, and to redirect the questioning to Hayate. "Hey Bulge, is Hayate still scum?" Look Here. I bet if Bulge would have pushed Hayate as scum, Siv would have been there to back him up ASAP.

Fish's second post is on the theory of the game. First was that Fish didn't read the game yet. Fish is null at this point (Post 127). What's interesting is Siv's fake response to it. Siv pushes the idea of "woah there's another one?!?!?!" here and then

5 minutes later...

comes back and talks about it. So Siv was able to search for the game, find the game, read through the game, makes his assessment, then post it here all in... 5 minnutes? I find that rather hard to believe. Then the following post to that one, Siv again tries to invalidate Bulge by using confbias as an excuse to why his posts look scummy. Probably to Fish, who hasn't read the game yet by his own admission... another manipulation technique? (Buddying)

Bins post about her experience with the other game reading through it looks much more legit. And seeing her give that time dedication to making that assumption earned townie points for me. Also, compare her post here to Siv's "wonderful recap" of the game a few posts before it. See a difference? Perhaps one person giving more attentiveness to it? Yeah, me too...

Speaking of Siv, here Siv is trying really hard to invalidate Bulge falsly, pushing the fact that Bulge is scum... perhaps to try and invalidate the nicely made case Bulge made against Siv earlier? Then Siv completely shuts down conversation with Bulge trying to actually inquire about his case here.

The Fitz and Bins discussion on town Bulge seems genuine, they both have townie points from me. I especially liked Fish's entrance after the discussion, it looked like Fish genuinely was reading through the game. Aronis' hesitation to jump on the Siv wagon is something definitely to take notice of, here.

Bins isn't nearly as townie as Fitz is in my book yet, mostly due to a lack of posting. But she's definitely getting there, though I don't know how to view her vote on Siv here. It could easily read as bussing, should suspicion come onto Bins later. I'll definitely keep this for notes.

Siv's posts a few before this one and especially including that one, screams deflection to me. Also, Fitz, I hope you didn't forget about this post. I am not sure if Don ever answered you, but if not, this is something we definitely need to follow up on. Especially with Don's post here, screams scum trying NOT to buss their buddy. It's funny how Don asks what the case is, yet Bulge made a case that Don addressed earlier as interesting if it's true, yet never commented on it up until this point. Then asked what the case is on Siv... really Don? I can't help but think you're trying really hard not to buss your partner here.

Siv's push here screams nothing more than "hey I did a town slip! Wait no, hey wait, it's a town slip, let's not let this go! I'm going to post it again to make sure everyone sees it!" Fitz and everyone else should read this post and the following few while Siv takes personal offense to Fitz calling out Hayate for sheeping Siv everywhere. Why would this take place? Unless Siv was purposefully manipulating and buddying up to Hayate and didn't want that called out and Siv exposed. If Hayate turns on Siv, Siv could be left alone without anyone to defend him and with his partner (probably Don_Johnson) already looking like he's willing to buss him if absolutely necessary, Siv wants whatever partners he could get to defend him.

I hate the Math suspicion starting to grow on Page 10. It's off of faulty logic coming from a guy (Math) who had a different view of game theory than us. It sounds more like a new mistake than it does a purposeful scum plan. Also notice on page 11, the absolutely lack of talk concerning Siv from Don here after his repetative talk of "good case Bulge" and "what's the case on Siv" then it becomes.. nothing. No mention of Siv. In fact, it becomes a counter wagon case on Math who everyone already is starting to look at. How is this not perfect scum deflection from his partner?

Um. I'm not scum.

Siv's "come back to life" drama that was played near the end of Page 11 does not fool me one bit. More manipulation to start Page 12 with this crap while Siv is trying to use reverse psychology on those in the game. I see during Page 12, Bins has successfully been manipulated and buddied up to enough by Siv that she's now sheeping him as well. There it is! The manipulation from Siv toward Hayato, I told you it'd happen soon enough where Siv would turn against Hayato. But remember, Hayato turned against Siv first and doubted Siv, so now Siv is trying to cast suspicions on Hayato here. Rather faulty too.

Seriously? SERIOUSLY? That's a snarky defence of hayato. That's NOT suspicion of hayato.

Alright after 13 pages and seeing the inactivity / lack of effort shown by the few in this game who didn't care to give it the attention it deserved, I can completely see Fitz' town frustation here.. Although I will admit, the Bulge's post here caught me completely off guard. Where the hell did TSO come from to become your vote?

Page 14 comes along... and you have a pointless discussion about Sundays and (ironically, we're back to the same game theory discussion that Siv was so adamant against during Page 1) it's between Siv and Math! The irony! (This is not really role-related, though it is quite the coincidence... and kinda confirms that perhaps Siv said that for townie points, not actually because that was his motivation.)

Yeah... I am actually a hypocrite about that. Yeah.

Fitz, you asked how I felt about Aronis and Fish's reasonings against me here yet did not give a reason yourself for voting me. You basically said "if I can't get this lynch off, so be it. I'll go after you just because!" And that's how I took it. So maybe you can understand where I was coming from, I didn't honestly realize the game state during that moment. As far as Aronis and Fish's reasonings, Aronis hasn't been giving really any reasons to vote anyone other than lazy town answers. Sheeping people, seeing where the best direction is, etc. Fish's reasons were fighting between myself and Siv, because the way the sheeping was working, the way I see it, there has to be scum between one of us. And I agree with it to be honest. I just think because of Siv's masterful manipulation and the luck of the draw with inactivity and replacements, I think Siv has been able to wiggle out of the spot light. At least, before this post.

Now I'm at the point where Iceguy replaces innocentvillager. Iceguy has quite the task on his hands. If it wasn't for the associative pair of Don_Johnson and Siv, I'd be voting him. And damnitt, Ice did the opposite here. He provoked more suspicion in my eyes, should Siv flip town, onto himself. I hated the whole "this day needs to end right now", however true it is, expressing the apathy toward this game. While my wagon was weak, I disagree that I'd call it bullshit and dismiss it the way he did without prior knowledge of my alignment. In fact, I'd be somewhat suspicious of Hayate, depending on Siv's flip to be frank. But the thing that killed me, was the overly opportunistic vote on Math, which kinda proved to me he didn't really read the game as well as he did. Well that and the Siv accusation.

Ice picked the worst example to explain Siv being scum, out of everything Siv did, to cling to. I wonder if Ice read the game closely, or if he skimmed... I actually liked Bins here as she makes a point that no one has actually made any valid points or cases against Math. Don's back and forth with Math looks terrible for Don, because Don is trying so hard to grasp at straws. Siv also finally has a reason after that to cast suspicion on his partner, Don here. And then? This gem comes out... how do you forget Bulge when he literally pushed you for 2 weeks about how scummy you are and wanted your lynch? And in 2-3 days you suddenly forget?

I'm really, really, really bad at focusing on 10 other players at the same time. I don't really do well in games larger than 9 players. Once bulge left my attention, and he did so because I was the focus of my attention, nobody wanted to lynch bulge, everyone told me I was wrong about bulge and basically I got left in doubt, I had no reason to look at him again. Same reason I haven't looked at don.

Fish is looking better and better as I read through Page 16. Meanwhile Siv looks worse and worse. Here Siv states he's being opportunistic with his vote on Math (why? And what town-motivation is in that?) and then when voting for Don, clings to the fact that Don is lazy? What a terrible case, but it would make complete sense that he has to come up with something in case Don's wagon takes off and he has to buss his partner... Math points this out actually later on through this page, and exposes Siv also. Also: this post doesn't shock me at all Bins...

Ehm, any lynch thats not siv is okayish (definitely better than the alternative). Any lynch that's not siv's townreads is good. Math isn't a townread, math has got a wagon - hey lets vote math. Don is similar.

Here is Siv's answer when asked his opinion on me or Ice (remember, I took over the Hayate slot, that Siv tried really hard to cast suspicion on earlier)... Click Me!!! Fitz asked for suspicions on me, Siv's response "Not. At. All." Literally. What a big jump.

What? When? When did i cast suspicion on hayato? I mean, I doubted for a bit when hayato endorsed my lynch and basically worked myself out of it.

Also take a look through Page 17... once again, Don is there, Siv is there, and not a SINGLE COMMUNICATION is made between the two. Over and over and over again, throughout this entire game, there's been distancing between Don and Siv. Except for the "my top suspects are X, Y, and Don/Siv." Yet they don't talk to each other? How the hell is this possible?

Look back through it and tell me, can you find an actual conversation between the two? Anywhere?!?!?!? Bueller? BUELLER?! Wait maybe it changes...

*reads through Page 18 where both Don and Siv are posting*

Nope!

*reads what page of 19 we have currently*

Wait! Siv made a comment to Don about no kills! Finally Siv actually addressed Don without calling him one of his top suspects. Can we end this game now?

Well, there's this.

First to be lynched: Siveure DtTrikyp

Next in line to be lynched: Don_Johnson.

If for some reason I'm wrong: IceGuy. (But doubt it.)

My full reads list since I'm probably not going to die tonight anyway... (From towniest to Scum)

Math - 2
The Bulge - 2
HavingFitz - 2
Aronis - 1
Bins - 1
TSO - 1 - Buddied by Don Johnson
Everyone Else - 0
InnocentVillager -1
Don_Johnson -2 Buddied the hell out of TSO, is not talking to Siv at all, and is not actively hunting scum.
Siveure - 5

Ignore the numbers and notes next to the names, it was for my own record.

And then:

VOTE: Siveure DtTrikyp[/quote][/spoiler]

Ehm, I was gonna save this, but bulge voted second for both hayato and me, despite being the first to push in both cases.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

UNVOTE: siveure

It's a spoiler fail

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Still mostly the same lol. Kinda influenced by neil.

Bins is town because she just looks really town.
Fitz is town mostly because he's made me say stuff when I went full defeatist tbh.
Aronis is town b/c yeah neil's reasoning = my old and i was pretty confident already.
Neil is town b/c of the earlier stuff on hayato and i agree with all his reads except concerning me.
TSO is probtown b/c partly gut and partly sheeping neil.
Fish idk. Attitude to defeatist siv wasn't great so sliiightly scummyish i guess? Idk. This is pretty null
Don idk. At all. Can't go off the tells neil has b/c hey they're all interactions with scum-siv.
Math idk.
Ice idk. Actually, kinda agree with neil (lol) on that.
Bulge is kinda scummy, mostly off the early stuff (like pre fitz/fish replace in). Looks postury. Also the whole second to vote first to push sorta thing...

Strength of player isn't really important with me prob being lynched.

Anyway, I would sheep neil right now but idk whether ice or don is the person to sheep onto.

Eh, with the crap everyone ELSE has on me, it's unlikely Ice is legitimately able to see past that but falls on "I'm making townslip"

VOTE: iceguy

Btw aronis you should probably be listening to neil/bins. Just imo.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Uh.

I don't really have a read on you.

You were being an ass to me while I was being incredibly, incredibly defeatist and I kinda had that as a bit scummy but yeah. It's not.

I got to L-1 earlier. There's someone new voting me. The case is a lot bigger. I don't dispel cases except by time and there's only five days to deadline. I'm dead. I'm completely dead. My only real hope for survival is someone decides hey ice looks scummy regardless of siv's alignment. (Which yeah. If ice looks suspicious with town-siv, why not with scum-siv?) And even so, I shouldn't really be alive in lylo because even if I DO convince enough of you I'm town I look too scummy to replacements to live.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Yeah.

Fitz post makes me think nobody should both send fruit and recieve it, should we get scum.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Ice

I felt a LOT better with my vote here. It's staying here.

I'm going to trust my gut.

I think this is a bad spot to be in right now, voting Ice. I don't believe Ice will (or should be) our lynch for today, given the information. If Ice does flip scum, we won't have much information to work off of in regards to team, etc. However if I'm correct and Siv flips scum, we have a fairly certain idea where to go next. If Siv flips town, we have a lot of information to work off of then, to figure out the next best path. Either way, we'll get more information in regards to Siv flipping then Ice.

Also, consider this Bins: Who's pushing the Ice wagon right now? (Answer: Siv.) It's scum trying to play the "appeal to emotions" and the "defeatist" card again. Why? Because it worked for him last time. And you're letting him manipulate you... again. Siv is deflecting his lynch to the easiest target (and the only person I made a case on, besides his partner Don) that others have slightly expressed concern with. Siv thinks Ice would be the best lynch right now, and Siv won't have to buss his partner to do it. Until a Siv or Don flip, I do not feel comfortable with Ice and will read Ice as town in comparison to my desire for lynching Siv.

Just think about it Bins.

(Also, Hi Xayzeck! It's been a while lol.)

Ehm.

I agree completely with about half your reads, and I don't really have proper reads in the other spots. Yes I'm gonna sheep you onto the person that is scummiest in your opinion with me-town.

Like, if siv deflecting onto ice (and I won't deny I pretty much AM doing that) is scum-siv, whats town-siv supposed to do? Pull the defeatist card to the maximum? Vote don based off a case that's also rooted in me being scum? Try to lurk the wagon off? OMGUS? Not get into this position in the first place? Ignore the fact neil just came up with a big case?

Like, it's actually pretty big to lynch scum today as of right now wrt fruit plans.

I see what you are saying. If in the list from 1-10 the possibility of scum being in a position to give fruit to their partner...and therefore performing a kill instead...would not get us very far (if at all). If as you suggest, we give the fruit out in pairs...and a kill still occurred...we would have at least confirmed that the two scum were one of the 5 pairs. Which would be more helpful than the aforementioned method.

So how does this sound people?

If we lynch town today (D1)

- we'll have ten players left. Starting at the top with Xayzeck still as #1...re-number everyone from 1-10 (so Xayzeck is #1 and Bins is #10 and all the others are renumbered accordingly. All the Odd numbered players will give their fruit to the even numbered player below them. All the even numbered players give their fruit to the player above them.

Example 1 - Xayzeck would give fruit to me and I would give fruit to Xayzeck.
Example 2 - FormerFish would give fruit to Bins and Bins would give fruit to FormerFish.

And so on in between.

This accomplishes the same thing as the previous method but it takes some of the potential risk out of mafia being next to each other on the list. If everyone does this as planned...and there is a kill tonight, we would know that the two scum were one of the 5 pairs (which would actually only be 3 pairs from everyone pov because one of the pairs would be eliminated from consideration by the NK, and each town would of course discount their own pair).

Uh. Not quite. They're one of the pairs, or the person paired with the NK and a random other person. Still, better than the other method actually.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Don.

Why do you think math is scum?
Why do you think that vote is going anywhere?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

He figured it out - so you ARE scum?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Heh.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

If we lynch mafia, then only odd players fruit as we either get conftown or we stop a nightkill without as much fruit being used.

If scum end up together on the list, thats valuable info. If they end up in pairs, that's ALSO valuable info. We then learn scum are either the other person next to those who died, or in a pair.

Scum can always choose to no-kill, and we think they will.

Anyway, Xay, can you talk about the game as well as the setup?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

I wanted to see what he'd say to something ridiculous.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Like, I don't think his response is the greatest but it's a tiny tell.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Don, nobody is gonna lynch math. Especially without a case. Vote me or ice. We are almost certainly the only people getting lynched today. That also kindof goes for everyone else who isn't voting one of us.

Spoiler: useless night probability math crap

Two reasons why the night probability is inaccurate.

1) There will be 9 other players in the game after the lynch, not 10.
2) Circular list has two potential scum places for scum X, not one.

That makes me think 1/9 chances with the pairs and 2/9 with the circle.

If you look at it the other way, there are 9+8+7+6+5+4+3+2+1 possible scumpairs = 45 and 5 of them are paired, so 1/9 again.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Why will there be 9, not 10?

One person died.

Pick one scum. Regardless of who it is, there are 9 other players, so 1/9 chance that they're in a pair.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Also I really dont think a math lynch is good at all.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

It's probably remiss of me not to have brought this up earlier, but...

The manipulation from Siv toward Hayato,

I told you it'd happen soon enough

where Siv would turn against Hayato. But remember, Hayato turned against Siv first and doubted Siv, so now Siv is trying to cast suspicions on Hayato here. Rather faulty too.

This bit is BS.

According to neil, post #299 it's exactly what he expected, that I'm turning on hayato and casting suspicion on him. If you read the post... that's not what it is. It's a snarky, sarcastic defence of hayato - that his actions make no sense from a scum perspective. At NO point have I suspected hayato. The closest I've gotten to suspicion is this which is basically "I just don't know..."

Anyway, you ended up with confbias of siv-scum. I'm not sure at what point, but it happened by that point in your case. And if you have to search for that point and can't find it... screw you your case's length is BS.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Can aronis, ice and don please come back and vote me or ice.

Like, at this point even I'd prefer a siv-lynch to a math-lynch. The only real reason I'm going with ice is b/c of the value of early scum lynches. Can we not have the largest wagon be a pile of crap?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

My awkward non-sequitur probably compares to some extent to yours.

What post are you talking about?

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Well yeah. I kinda first thought about this setup previously here Also, math thought it was the perfect way to break the setup and find out who the scum are. Compared to that, JUST getting rid of two nightkills isn't great, but it's still the "best" plan (at that point). How is the grammar confusing everyone afterwards?

...

Anyway gonna self-hammer later b/c my lynch really is better than no-lynch.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Pairs:Xayzeck
havingfitz

Aronis
IceGuy

The Bulge
don_johnson

Neil113
mathbandit

Formerfish
Bins

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Fish voted me so I'm actually at 4 votes

Can't see anything else...

Wait, it's 6 to lynch.

SOMEONE ELSE VOTE ME QUICK.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Yes guys, I am wifoming you into thinking I shouldn't be lynched because I'm pushing for it so hard.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Okay. Good.

Gonna wait for bulge and aronis to show up and post.

Will hammer myself tomorrow if I'm not already hammered by then.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Pass in partners. Don't use the info to inform your lynch decision tomorrow. Instead, you lynch ice or the bulge.

Neil is town.
Aronis is town.
Bins is town
Fitz is probtown
Tso was town. Xay idk.
Fish idk. Kindof town.
Math idk.
Don idk
Ice idk. Was literally sheeping neil lol.
Bulge is probscum.
His early play was fake-contributions. His vote on me was really suspicious - in his previous post he'd called me town, ALSO fitz had voted me before he voted. Also suspicious is how hayato moved to town at this point.
Later play is kindof null, although lurking is what I'd expect of scum-bulge.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Last time it was b/c I figured nobody listens to lynched town, but if it was the last post of the day maaaaybe.

Now it's b/c well, I should be lynched at SOME point b/c i'm too scummy, and it's me or no-lynch today. I'd prefer self-lynch to deadline no-lynch.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Okay, the weird contradiction I saw earlier.

Assuming you mean go with the list order plan but don't make it mandatory...

1) It's a waste of fruit for people who do decide to give.
2) It only works as process of elimination and gives us nothing conclusive.
3) It is incredibly easy for mafia to work around it (ie, take turns killing)
4) It won't stop any night kills.

We're making it compulsive.

Okay, so bulge correctly notices that hayato wants fruit circle with everyone choosing whether to give or not.

1) Scum can lie about giving fruit. Read the setup. You are not informed of how much fruit you received. Multiple people can give to the same player and the recipient won't be notified of it.

2) In some cases it would. If scum decides to kill during a fruit night.
3) It's pretty self-explanatory. If it's not mandatory to give fruit, scum doesn't have to provide any excuses as to why they didn't give.
4) Your "could" is far weaker than our "could".

Sorry for any typos, I'm on mobile with an annoying autocorrect.

And with fruit circle, how does multiple fruit happen?

Pedit: yeah fair enough go with ice on this. I'm gonna hammer before deadline if nobody else does, but other probably should deadline hammer as well - I might not be active, even assuming I'm town.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

You really should.

All that being said, I don't think Siveure is scum. I do, however, think hayato is mafia piggybacking off of town logic to get me lynched and save his own ass.

PEDIT (Siveure): How is that any different from every other person who voted anyone?
Of course he doesn't, because he's scum and he knows I'm town.

Votecount 1.0

innocentvillager (1) -

mathbandit

hayatoBL (2) -

T S O, The Bulge

mathbandit (3) -

don_johnson, Siveure DtTrikyp, hayatoBL

Not Voting (5) -

Marcrell, Aronis, innocentvillager, ashura525, Aeronaut

With 11 alive, it's 6 to lynch.

Assuming you mean go with the list order plan but don't make it mandatory...

1) Scum can lie about giving fruit. Read the setup. You are not informed of how much fruit you received. Multiple people can give to the same player and the recipient won't be notified of it.

This is weird. When you look back, TSO and I both completely misunderstood hayato's plan. Bulge didn't initially then DID in his later post? What?

I don't understand this... what are you trying to say? That I didn't understand at first, or that I did? Either way, how is this so strange?

Because everything looks like it could have come from scum-bulge.

Good reasoning A+

yea yea OMGUS whatever
VOTE: Siveure
I don't like how he's been posting lately and I'm pretty sure he's scum. More to come when I have time.

These posts are consecutive in bulge's iso. In the first, he finds me town, despite the "stupidity" I've exerted.
Then, he posts a votecount, presumably not changing his opinion.
Then he votes me. What changed? Okay, I'd done really stupid/scummy stuff. TSO had abandoned the hayato wagon - and fitz had voted me. It's NOT OMGUS to vote someone 70 posts after they first voted you, and that bulge calls it as thus dispels suspicion on what is a horrible vote.

Neil, you called out bulge for appearing to contribute while not actually contributing in RVS - what makes calling out the lurkers different? How is stating the advantages of one night plan over another not fake-contribution? I don't think there IS a difference.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

1) Xayzeck
havingfitz

2)Aronis
IceGuy

3)The Bulge
don_johnson

4)Neil113
mathbandit

5)Formerfish
Bins

Okay. When I flip town, pass to your partner in this list.

Good job guys. Especially neil. I totally would cajole everyone into voting me as scum with like two days left to deadline. That's not how wifom works in everyone's minds lol.

Yes guys, I am wifoming you into thinking I shouldn't be lynched because I'm pushing for it so hard.

Lol. This post is correct in that I'm wifoming you, but I was lying about it being to stop the lynch on me .

Btw I'm pretty sure bins was the hammer. But just to make absolutely sure.

VOTE: Siveure DtTrikyp

Seriously, think about the bulge.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

(Siv, since you're the lynch for today, a claim would be nice now. I'm expecting a power role claim, since that'd be the best claim scum can do. If you say VT, I'm going to be seriously disappointed in you when you flip scum.)

Yup I got a power role.

I'm a 3-shot fruit vendor.

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Btw if you want to use "trying to get town to do suboptimal plan" as a scumtell bulge just did it

[Siveure DtTrikyp]

Neil, I made a joke back at your joke lol. Didn't realize you were joking lol.