New York 180 (Endgame)

[T S O]

It doesn't matter, Ozgin, we need you to focus on the game.

[T S O]

Ozgin returns to the game; quotes posts where I show my thought process for my kills, tells us these aren't crumbs, quotes the actual crumbs and says that, yes, these are crumbs, but I could still be the SK, because ???

[T S O]

Fuck me, the quality of play is literally atrocious if you guys are town.

We have Ozgin, who's saying "hey thats not a crumb neither is that but that is you crumbing but maybe youre crumbing as sk!!!", where he took a gigantic post to come to the conclusion that, yes, I crumbed. That's it. That was the sum total of the conclusion.
We have Aeronaut, who's saying "hey i think you're scum but if you're not scum kill this person pls" because if I was scum, I'd definitely kill them, instead of, you know, someone who's actually a threat to me.

Etcetera.

[T S O]

I know, Shinobi, but I need to release my annoyance somehow.

[T S O]

It's a general paranoia thing, don't blame yourself.

[T S O]

But what you're saying, this is literally exactly what you're fucking saying, is "I think you could have done this as the SK, THEREFORE YOU ARE THE SK".

It's like saying "I think heads could be this flip, THEREFORE THIS FLIP WILL BE HEADS." Except that's not even accurate because I'm not 50% likely to be the SK, but I don't even care about that right now.

And you also think I'm lying about shooting pisskop - so your working theory right now is "TSO the SK who claimed Vig shot Boonskiies n1 because ???, and the REAL vig shot pisskop, and this real Vig also hasn't counterclaimed, again because ???".

[T S O]

Meanwhile, the Shinobi wagon is gaining traction despite a lack of anything to make him scum, the Marquis wagon refuses to gain traction because scum have essentially veto'd their votes on him, and Ozgin is proposing the most ludicrous. theories. ever.

[T S O]

Yes, I did indeed call FA the SK when he was clearly a Vig for no reason.

My bad.

[T S O]

TSO, you're missing my point.

I'm saying that your Vig claim is too good. Too planned. Too... calculated. I'm not denying that you could be SK, but I don't think it's a 50-50 chance. I think the way you went about it makes you more likely to be the SK.

So, basically, the claim makes sense, but you're paranoid of me, so it can't be true.

Right.

[T S O]

TSO

When SHinobi gives me a solid case on Aeronaut being scum then I'll consider him seriously. He's been coasting and he has scum reads based on one-liners.

No you said FA was obvi scum and he wasn't.

One of you or Marquis needs to die.

If you think Ozgin is scum then SW must be too and who the fuck knows with the GM claim and that little hood.

I'm not calling Ozgin scum, I want Marquis to die, I've explained my reasons for FA-scum countless times, Shinobi being lazy doesn't make him scum, Aeronaut probably -is- scum anyway.

[T S O]

Wake has been having an extremely hard time lately and his game has suffered because of it. There's an easy way to verify that, if you want to look for it.

[T S O]

Okay, Ozgin, why don't

you

tell me what my master plan was? Hit scum (or Boonskiies for no reason, isn't that your theory?) n1, then proceed to not kill n2, shoot MB n3 and nk n4 straight in order to fake being the Vig? Meanwhile, the real Vig, who shot scum n1, ALSO doesn't kill for 3 nights because again, no reason? And then doesn't counterclaim because

still no reason?

[T S O]

Day 1 - "Let's kill someone random! Why not? I'm the SK, it's my

job

to kill everyone. Either kill scum luckily or doctor (just as lucky for me, since I'm anti-everything)."
Day 2 - "Oh look, a scum died last night. I can claim that as my own work."
Day 3 - "Hm. I'm gonna hard crumb that the vig will kill MathBlade tonight, then as the SK kill Math so I can claim vig later! They'll have to buy it!"
Day 4 - "Everyone is shitting on FAQ. Instead of claiming vig now, I'll just ride out this wave and let them lynch someone, and claim tomorrow."
Day 5 - "Everyone look! Turn your attention to day 3 - I must be vig because I hard crumbed this! I also must be town because I'm a vig and scum died night 1! Let's kill Marquis!"

Now, if Marquis flips town on a lynch and you're alive tomorrow (And no scum die tonight):

Day 6 - "Woah woah woah guys, it was an honest mistake! I'm a vig, not a cop! I couldn't have known my kill last night was town, and I couldn't have known that Marquis wasn't scum! They looked like scum! I dunno why I'm still alive! Please don't lynch me!"

But if the scum kill you tonight and you flip SK, I'll probably laugh harder than I should. If you flip vigilante, I'll feel pretty stupid, but my gut is SCREAMING at me.

I genuinely have not read this post past d1, where apparently I, a rather alright scum player, decided to kill someone random instead of an actual threat, because, still, time and time again,

no reason.

[T S O]

Your logic keeps falling to pieces in certain areas and you refuse to address these:

-Why the fuck did I kill Boonskiies n1 if I'm the SK?
-Where's my n2 kill?
-Where's the vig's kill n3 if I'm the SK?
-Where's my n4 kill?
-Why hasn't the vig counterclaimed me?

And, here's one for the road:

Why the fuck would I set up a Vig claim when the alive Vig would just counterclaim me?

[T S O]

Why do I have to address this bullshit instead of directing the town like I should be? Jesus.

[T S O]

Well, no, worst case is he's an SK not on a leash. Or groupscum. Actually he's more likely to be groupscum than he is to be SK at this point, imo.

............
...........
............

[T S O]

I am actually close to screaming irl.

[T S O]

Props to you, Marquis. You've engineered a scenario where your team won't bus, which is the correct play, and you've also convinced enough town members not to lynch you that you can't die today.

[T S O]

I don't think scum are going to leave me alive tomorrow. In one way, it would be a mislynch which wouldn't be impossible to achieve, but on the other, there are at least 2 mislynches more viable than I, while I'm a rallying point for town, I have the potential to shoot scum, and I have a peculiar habit of evading the noose when scum really need it to happen.

[T S O]

I am actually close to screaming irl.

Well, if this cheers you, just saying that I believe your efforts on trying to find scum.

Kitz, you truly warm my heart.

Props to you, Marquis. You've engineered a scenario where your team won't bus, which is the correct play, and you've also convinced enough town members not to lynch you that you can't die today.

He hasn't survived yet.

He's got a voting bloc who won't lynch him, dragon. {Marquis, goodmorning, Aeronaut, Ozgin} straight up won't. Shinobi and elusive probably won't. That's a majority right there.

[T S O]

Spoiler: TSO on Marquis

Oh yeah, I hated Marquis' play there too. I should go take a look.

Gonna follow up on this?

Of course, baby.

Actually, one of my current tinfoil-hat theories which is beginning to gnaw at me is that one of the conduits to Nobody Special's death was scum realising - and Cheetory had a moment where I refused to discuss it and that could have tipped him off.

I'm not really sure why I would be more suspicious than the other people who probably didn't notice the claim and just didn't say anything. I get why I'm being singled out here, but it's shitty that someone else probably had this realization and I'm taking the fall for it. -.-

When I say tinfoil-hat theory, I mean it's what I think of when I get paranoid. I think NS could have been low-priority as a target due to inactivity etc. - but there -are- scumkills missing, which maybe he blocked, and they got sick of it. I think this is more likely than my theory about you.

Fully support a Marquis wagon at this juncture, will probably push it sooner or later.

Can you walk through why exactly? Or point me in the direction of a post you've made which reflects your current feelings on him?

To summarise my thoughts:

Marquis' stance on me, and stances in general, are fluctuating bullshit. His read on FA_Q2 also kept going back and forth yesterday. His justification of this is "Well, you can't expect me to have static reads when I've only just replaced in." This is true. However, his reads on me are not simply "not static." They are ever-changing. There's never any reasoning for them, ever. It's true that this could be from town-Marquis. I told him he had one day yesterday. His stance on me today, summarised, is "he's null-scum because he's been pushing easy targets like faq, who I also pushed on and off yesterday." That was the final straw for me. I cannot reconcile how he could post this, when the thought process required to do so would be something like this:

"I wanted FA dead for being scummy yesterday, and I was wrong! And TSO was the same, so I'm gonna give him a scumread."

I just cannot see town Marquis doing that. Maybe if he was able to detail why his read on me and FA, in particular, went "town-scum-town-scum-tum-scown-town-scum", but I doubt he remembers those. I have no idea why he felt his thought process needed to be opaque this game - opaque thought processes are a bad idea 99% of the time. And he's not usually into super-opaqueness, at least now as town, from what I've seen of him.

I'm sorry, Shinobi, we're not having another day where we hem and we haw and Marquis is "indecisive", tells us he's paranoid of me, and we lynch dragonspawn in a deadline panic.

that was not a fucking deadline panic

there was a week left and everyone was just sick of everything

and you even liked my fa_q2 case, brought up points to back it up, and advocated his lynch for the whole rest of the day

You're right - however, what I described was exactly how this day would have panned out if not for my intervention. You would have done nothing useful except fake paranoia.

You're also right on FA_Q2 - I did like that wagon. By the way, you never explained to me how us both supporting the wagon made me nullscum and you town. I'd love to hear it. Except I don't think I ever will, because you've flat out refused to explain any of your read progresses this game. <---

This is a huge fucking scumtell, I don't know why people don't see that.

i don't care what you have to say about me knowing or not knowing your scum game, because i already know i'm not 100% on that

So why did you say it, then?

the real issue i have is you having multiple experiences with both my town and scum games, and then somehow having the audacity to say my towngame isn't opaque and by definition open and easy to see- and that's a totally bullshit misrepresentation.

See, this is why you're scum. Let me lay out what was said:

TSO: Marquis's game here has been completely and utterly opaque - his towngame is not usually like this.
Marquis: Hey, he's saying my towngame isn't opaque! THAT MUST MEAN HE'S SAYING IT'S COMPLETELY OPEN! SCUM!

It's these random fucking moments of bullshit you keep pulling.

i don't even care how it looks that i'm arguing my town game sucks, but you should know this and know how easy it was for me to act natural and get you to townread me when i was scum.

You knew that, after beating me in Rick Santorum, if you came in here and tried the same shit I'd probably nail your ass to the wall. So you tried to vary your scumgame. Maybe insert a little paranoia. I know what you were thinking.

so right now, especially after letting me slide yesterday then only coming at me now when i've started to express a stronger scumread on you, i want you dead.

Ahahaha this is bullshit and lies. I'm taking a separate post to address this because it's such a blatant falsehood.

it looks like i'm going to flip first.

Damn fucking straight it does - big bright red letters in the OP.

so right now, especially after letting me slide yesterday then only coming at me now when i've started to express a stronger scumread on you

Okay, so this is a straight up-lie.

Spoiler: Yesterday

VOTE: tso

didn't finish reading but i like this right now. a lot.

Votes for me for no reason, never given either.

VOTE: tso

didn't finish reading but i like this right now. a lot.

Okay, you've made your mind, go justify it now. Off with you.

I ask for justification.

"oh fa is scum"
"wait no"
"oh tso is scum"
"wait no"
"oh fa is scum again"

What are you doing, Marquis?

I'm not aggressive.

I don't like Marquis' read progression at all - I don't have a particular issue with him jumping around, I often do the same, but his thought process is completely opaque and has been in everything he's done so far.

Still not aggressive.

I like the names on the FA wagon a lot more than those on the Marquis wagon.

FA_Q2 -is- being lynched today, and there's towncred available - the only question is whether scum have the guts to bus him or not.

I back the FA wagon over the Marquis wagon.

So, yesterday, you can see Marquis openly supported my wagon and I did not do what Marquis's apparently saying I always do by attack people who attack me as scum. Point disproven.

Spoiler: Today

VOTE: dragonspawn

goodmorning goes up into town, unrelated to dragon's things.

tso is nullscum again. part of me thinking he was town end of yesterday was related to me being hugely overconfident about fa_q2 scum. i feel like a lot of his recent posts now in hindsight go along with that, like he's pushing easy targets that town has already made a case on or driving a lynch on. just... his recent attacks and scumreads seem to be pushing easy target after easy target.

actually i kind of really want to just lynch tso but nobody's probably up for that.

pedit oh my god that response pings as honest town though gahhhhhhh

UNVOTE:

...recalculating............ this is.....

why do i get the feeling that we just have a lot of town outclassed by scum in experience at looking town?? shinobi, tso? i could see those two easily driving a scumteam.

i'm just going to get rid of my do-not-lynch list entirely and go for the easier, less-potential-disaster option between those two. there's an added benefit in that i don't remember any significant reads on or from him or things he's done. scum removing himself from significant interactions? likely

VOTE: shinobi

"TSO is nullscum, Shinobi is more scum!"

yeah 4456-7 and his response to me voting him are super gross

let's go shinobi wagon

Fully backs Shinobi wagon...

"Hey, can you elaborate on your vote?"

lol bs on that, all you did was threaten me with a past game where i got lynched over you, plus i already elaborated in my original vote and i'm not ashamed to admit your posting after my vote is only strengthening my fortitude and confidence here

so don't pretend like you're innocent. the difference here is this game i'm town, and even if i lose this 1v1 i'm totally ready to have, it's not the end of the world now. i'll be on the record as having started a wagon on scum and died for it in the end

...goes on to tell us he doesn't mind dying because Shinobi's scum.

I support Marquis dying, guess I'm scum too?

Fully support a Marquis wagon at this juncture, will probably push it sooner or later.

Can you walk through why exactly? Or point me in the direction of a post you've made which reflects your current feelings on him?

To summarise my thoughts:

Marquis' stance on me, and stances in general, are fluctuating bullshit. His read on FA_Q2 also kept going back and forth yesterday. His justification of this is "Well, you can't expect me to have static reads when I've only just replaced in." This is true. However, his reads on me are not simply "not static." They are ever-changing. There's never any reasoning for them, ever. It's true that this could be from town-Marquis. I told him he had one day yesterday. His stance on me today, summarised, is "he's null-scum because he's been pushing easy targets like faq, who I also pushed on and off yesterday." That was the final straw for me. I cannot reconcile how he could post this, when the thought process required to do so would be something like this:

"I wanted FA dead for being scummy yesterday, and I was wrong! And TSO was the same, so I'm gonna give him a scumread."

I just cannot see town Marquis doing that. Maybe if he was able to detail why his read on me and FA, in particular, went "town-scum-town-scum-tum-scown-town-scum", but I doubt he remembers those. I have no idea why he felt his thought process needed to be opaque this game - opaque thought processes are a bad idea 99% of the time. And he's not usually into super-opaqueness, at least now as town, from what I've seen of him.

I say I want Marquis dead.

UNVOTE:

I've been in a "fuck my reads" mood since the FA_Q2 flip, and up until now I've tried not to care about people scumreading me but now it's "fuck my reads and fuck this game".

I don't know what's up. This game seems to have a heavy split between significantly experienced players and not very experienced at all, and how the flips have gone this game signify to me that the scum is hiding in the experienced pool.

Shinobi right now I'm still not liking at all, but I'm willing to admit that my approach to that was flawed so any response he has to me would naturally incense me in return. I just... I really have no idea anymore. I feel like I'm sabotaging my own reads at the very least. Ignoring again for now.

Then it comes to the main thing I'm used to TSO-scum doing, which is pushing back on people when they start scumreading him and pushing for their lynch, and that's a part of what I see him doing here. Not to mention that post above about my meta sounds like bullshit because he knows when I'm actually scum I'm comfortable as fuck, and when I'm town that's when I have no idea what's going on and I just feel weak and unsure of everything. And I also feel like his sudden attack on me, after mostly letting my insecurity regarding FA_Q2 slide yesterday, is part of him taking advantage of how uncomfortable and unsure I am here, not only about my reads but about how I'm starting to feel about how I'm perceived.

VOTE: TSO

As of this post the only reads I'm sure of are townreads on Silverwolf and goodmorning. I don't even know what I saw as town in dragonspawn earlier but right now that's back to null because I'm afraid I've gotten into the habit of townreading scum for doing stupid things lately.

I'll be back later, I need to take a breath.

And I'm scum, and Shinobi isn't. Magical.

i don't care what you have to say about me knowing or not knowing your scum game, because i already know i'm not 100% on that

the real issue i have is you having multiple experiences with both my town and scum games, and then somehow having the audacity to say my towngame isn't opaque and by definition open and easy to see- and that's a totally bullshit misrepresentation.

i don't even care how it looks that i'm arguing my town game sucks, but you should know this and know how easy it was for me to act natural and get you to townread me when i was scum. so right now, especially after letting me slide yesterday then only coming at me now when i've started to express a stronger scumread on you, i want you dead. given how the rest of this game seems to blindly trust you for some reason, it looks like i'm going to flip first. but i really don't give a damn anymore because this is all bullshit and if it takes my mislynch for you to finally flip too, then, well, that's fucking great.

as you said, we only need one scumflip to finally open this game up. i agree, and i want you lynched.

And then the old classic we saw before with Shinobi: "I don't mind dying because TSO is scum."

I think it's again obvious as fuck he's making up his reads out of thin air to fit whatever agenda he wants to push. It was scum-Shinobi, now it's scum-TSO.

The main, core thing is a gut+meta read that you absolutely would not have attacked me like this if you were town. You know the caliber of my town game versus my scum game, and this feels almost exactly like the same way you shut me down and lynched me when my main scumread was you in N's game (as Cho). But of course the rest of town here who mostly don't know me and I suspect are newish or like to do things "by the book" won't really take that as reasoning. Which is fair enough.

You know what amuses me so much about this game and your case? I genuinely think it funny that your case on me is "you would not be attacking me like this if you were town because you'd give my towngame a chance." You want to know why?

Because I did give you a chance. I specifically said yesterday I was giving you a day to get your shit in order. You know what had happened before that? You'd attacked me for literally no reason. Did I do what apparently scum always do? No. Did I attack you? No. Even though you scumread me for no reason at all, I didn't immediately attack you. I calmly told you to go off and justify it. When you realised you couldn't, you simply jumped back onto FA. It also doesn't go unnoticed, Marquis, that as you jumped back onto the largest wagon pressure had been coming onto you from people like dragonspawn.

So, to summarise:

Yesterday, you scumread me for no reason.
I didn't get aggressive, I told you to tell me why.
You never did and jumped onto FA.
I told you I was giving you one day.
You came into the thread today with your reads exactly the same.
That was when I realised you were lazy as shit scum, and started pushing you.
As soon as I did this, you dropped your Shinobi scumread and started pushing me as 100% scum.
Your main reasoning? "Oh you're scum for attacking me."
The only problem is, I took the other path in this game and I saw where it led me.
I have every justification for attacking you.
So you better find a new reason to call me scum, because to anyone who's read this post, that one's not going to wash anymore.

I've said all I have to say - explained why night actions somewhat exonerate me, explained how Marquis's scumread on me is founded on half-truths and lies, explained why I believe Marquis is scum and shown my meta isn't as static as Marquis is trying to claim it is. I feel, looking at what I've posted on Marquis, it is decisively convincing enough to show that he's scum going for the jugular mislynch.

I cannot explain how convinced I am Marquis is scum. I know it, I know I have him on the ropes. All I need is for you to vote him. Just put your paranoia of me aside, stop letting people paint me as the greatest scumplayer who ever lynched, and take this game on the merits of this game. If you do that, you'll see Marquis is scum. Please.

[T S O]

Quotes are fucked a little, elusive, but they're not one-liners.

[T S O]

He's got a voting bloc who won't lynch him, dragon. {Marquis, goodmorning, Aeronaut, Ozgin} straight up won't. Shinobi and elusive probably won't. That's a majority right there.

Anyone in this list who's town; you need to be fully aware you're tossing the game if you refuse to vote Marquis.

[T S O]

Shinobi, you're not going to get support for them, and that big voteblock is just going to end up consolidating on you, which is a fancy way of saying they'll end up deadline lynching you.

[T S O]

If I'm around tomorrow I promise you I will take a serious, serious look at the two of them. But I need you with me now.

[T S O]

I might sheep TSO here after all is said and done.

TSO, you're going to shoot GM, yes?

Yes.

[T S O]

I am not as confident in scum-gm as I was - but she is literally aiding the scum by pushing their mislynch for them.

[T S O]

Plus, she hasn't clarified her role at all - she neighbourised 2 people in one day and after that the 'hood never re-opened? Because that's town?

[T S O]

How does it confirm them? Goodmorning isn't a Friendly Neighbouriser, which would make them conftown. She's just a Neighbouriser.

[T S O]

Also why not shoot Marquis if you're so confident?

He'll be dead today.

[T S O]

goodmorning's role is completely unclear and she needs to clarify it the fuck up.

[T S O]

Kitz, it's pretty unlikely this is a gigantic gambit where they're all scum - I know how great that would be, how open-and-closed it would make the game - but these guys are experienced scumplayers. They wouldn't all commit themselves like that.

[T S O]

I'm going to guess that if I get Marquis lynched today and he flips scum, they'll shoot me. It's optimal play. Whereas in any other scenario, they'd leave me alive.

That means I need to get down my last will and testament to the town.

[T S O]

Lynching likely scum is far better than shooting likely scum. It's more difficult to lynch likely scum because the scumteam can try to disrupt it. So, if we can be successful with our lynch, and trust in the guy who's 1/2 for scum shots, we're more likely to hit 2 scum than not.

[T S O]

Except, you know, nobody else being ready to lynch Marquis, so why not try to lynch another decent scumspect and then shoot Marquis tonight?

Pedit:
@dragonspawn

"Because even though you said you don't wanna lynch TSO, you're trying to lynch TSO."

I can't facepalm any harder, holy shit. Is this how TSO feels about Marquis?

dragonspawn's point is basically correct. You aren't trying to lynch me, but you are trying to discredit me as strongly as you can.

[T S O]

T S O, I have a question.
Do you read Wolf as a Town? If so, why?

Yes. Her play has been town, and her vote on Marquis was extremely town.

I understand your line of thought, Kitz. I really do. She's been seen as town for so long she should be dead. However, there are many extenuating circumstances - three of the four nights, scum likely went for PR's. They haven't had time, except for n3. And she wasn't particularly dangerous in relation to getting scum lynched on d3, so she wasn't an immediate threat on n3.

[T S O]

Shinobi, it really is time to vote Marquis so we can pressurise people into either voting Marquis or claiming scum.

[T S O]

Hey, Marquis, how sure are you on Aero-scum?

[T S O]

Serious question - because I think he's scum with you, and I want to see where you'll go in relation to lynching him.

[T S O]

The dance was fun, Marquis, I'll give it that. I have no intention of shit-talking you - but I don't think I'll have to. I really don't.

[T S O]

I need to sleep on this game in case it's my last day in it.

[T S O]

And Aeronaut gains 2 votes; next thing you know, town deadline lynch.

[T S O]

goodmorning, quite frankly, you can fuck off if you have the nerve to tell me to do so; my ego might make me an idiot but at least my reads aren't fucking diabolically bad.

[T S O]

VOTE: Aeronaut

[T S O]

This is one of the most completely illogical things I've ever done, but... if this flips scum I don't really want to go after Marquis anymore.

[T S O]

Marquis has literally no reason to bus Aeronaut in this scenario whatsoever.

[T S O]

UNVOTE:

I'm just going to go ahead and assume no vig claim! Yay!

:/

VOTE: Aeronaut

I actually read this as voting Shinobi because I was so utterly convinced Marquis was about to do that.

:/

[T S O]

aaaargh

[T S O]

No, dragon's town; trust yourself, TSO.

Vote remains. Marquis, your statement is 100% true. I don't think you'd bus Aero, and I think he's scum. That's what's stopping me from voting you.

[T S O]

TSO, why would you rule out the possibility of him being an SK, and me being scum, or vice versa?

Well, that would still make you a fantastic lynch.

[T S O]

I really don't believe Aero is scum. What in the world happened to make people suddenly believe that? Please give me a case here people so I can look at it. I'm only around in this game due to deadline coming up so please spell it out in words I can understand.

Inconsistent arguments regarding me is an important one: "I think you're SK for no reason but I'd like you to shoot here" like he somehow thinks that SK-TSO would be leashed, when I know that he knows that would never happen.

[T S O]

all it is is that i just think you're being really dumb with your ego if town. i already know you're as wrong as can be about me. and i think dragon is scum more than aero as of this page, but aero is by far a better lynch imo than shinobi or myself.

I can't trust you because not only am I scumreading you, everyone else I'm scumreading is backing you to the hilt. Meanwhile, dragonspawn is talking sense while someone like Ozgin is spouting nonsense. People like Aeronaut have been backing you all day today. What do you expect me to think?

[T S O]

I have yet to hear why goodmorning is town from her 'hood stuff. I want to know.

[T S O]

Marquis-Not that it matters now because we need to concentrate on a lynch, but I did read your scum neighborizer neighbourhood and I did see the manipulation you used there as scum. GM has not been manipulative in the slightest. I was very paranoid when she first neighborized me because I had been suspecting her before that but she has not tried to manipulate me and has not said anything in there I would associate with scum. Her reason for picking me made sense because she wanted to show herself to her townreads. She never once tried to get me to vote a certain way or try to sell herself as town to me-both of which I would expect from a scum neighborizer.

[/quote]

This is no good. It's too vague. I mean, you're saying her reason for picking you makes sense. Yes, you're right. It makes perfect sense from scum-gm, just as it does for town-gm. You say she has never tried to get you to vote a certain way - what would she say? "Vote here now"? She's been here for years. She's learned the art of subtlety.

[T S O]

lynching me is bad because when i flip town, if my setup spec was wrong and tso's scum, my townflip gives him free room to potentially "doubt" his reads and shoot whoever he wants in scum interests rather than town

lynching aero, whether he flips scum or not, limits his shot choices to me, and dragon hopefully. if he shoots anywhere else it's a scumclaim and he should be lynched.

Again, this move makes zero sense for scum-TSO.

[T S O]

SilverWolf; this day is coming down to Shinobi vs Aeronaut. You can see by how frantic the discussion is that one is scum and one is town. Please, vote Aeronaut. These names on the Shinobi wagon are so utterly untrustable. It's a scum wagon, on town.

[T S O]

Ozgin, I'll answer your questions once you answer mine. I want to know why exactly you believe I'm the SK, given I have made 5-6 logical points on why I'm not. You responded to, perhaps, one. Not good enough.

[T S O]

Ozgin, has your favoured alignment always been scum over town, or did it recently change?

[T S O]

T S O, I have a question.
Let's say we get a scum and you manage to kill another scum, which leaves down to 3, would you accept being lynched if it's necessary since if you don't die?

I'm thinking ahead on what the players here would try.

And then scum don't kill me, and I get mislynched tomorrow?

No.

[T S O]

Assuming she's going to hammer, which I sincerely hope she doesn't.

[T S O]

Superficial reads, no town thought processes, pushing lynches on nothing.

[T S O]

I'm saying you're pushing a lynch on Shinobi based on nothing.

[T S O]

I also wonder what exactly your point here regarding my move from Marquis is - I genuinely don't understand the scum motivation behind it, unless I am so desperate to save my scumbuddy Shinobi, in which case I would still have the same amount of support, minus SilverWolf but plus Marquis, but now I have to go attack a new person and explain my motivation for doing so.

[T S O]

It's easy to point fingers and say "Oh, TSO's not voting Marquis anymore! Strange! Inconsistent!" That's right. As town I am not consistent. I get paranoid as hell and regularly flip reads back and forth in my mind. As scum my reads are extremely logical and consistent and never change. Fuck consistency. I'd rather be called out for inconsistency and do my best to lynch people I believe are scum rather than play like a coward and not push my current reads because I'm scared someone might scumread me for a lack of clear factors to instigate the read change.

[T S O]

I also wonder what exactly your point here regarding my move from Marquis is - I genuinely don't understand the scum motivation behind it, unless I am so desperate to save my scumbuddy Shinobi, in which case I would still have the same amount of support, minus SilverWolf but plus Marquis, but now I have to go attack a new person and explain my motivation for doing so.

..... Or, you realized that nobody was going to commit to lynching Marquis today and you realized that you had to switch your positioning.

Why did I have to do that?

[T S O]

Actually, {TSO, dragonspawn, SilverWolf, Kitz} was 4 of the 6 required. It is quite possible Cheetory would have sided with me. Shinobi would also have done so. That's 6.

[T S O]

So, yes, your argument has just died a horrible death, but I want to see where you bring it anyway. Continue.

[T S O]

if you guys actually fucking believe tso and lynch me today, i don't want there to be any reason for tso to be able to gloat in postgame and the wiki about having the shittiest claim and almost getting lynched and town believing him anyway letting him grab another scum win hahaha i fooled all u plebs!!! like no. i am not here for that and i have the sickest grossest feeling from the recent tone toward tso (wolfy this is mainly you) that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting gm or lynching her tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite being his reads or cases (marquis-gm associatives despite me being obvtown and probably going to be proven flipped town) proved wrong time and time again it's tso.

If you're town, Marquis, this was a super-sweet thing to say.

[T S O]

Considering quoting tht.

[T S O]

*that. goddamn it.

[T S O]

It's Shinobi vs Marquis, who's he gonna vote? You?

That's 5 basically guaranteed votes, as Cheetory had said he disliked Marquis' push on me.

So all scum-TSO needed to remove his most vocal detractor was 1 vote. One vote, with people like Kitz who could be influenced. Especially with the pressures of deadline.

Do you think I'd back myself to make that mislynch happen as scum? Do you? Because if you have the first inkling of how scum-TSO works, you'd know I'd back myself to the

hilt

to pull it off.

[T S O]

Aeronaut, buddy, I won't be killing you during the night. That's why your lynch is going through right now.

[T S O]

Cheetory, come along.

[T S O]

I actually chuckled at the fact that if goodmorning is Town, one of us is completely and utterly wrong in our opinions of the game.

Fun will be had postgame.

[T S O]

I'm here. Thank fuck I made it on.

[T S O]

If Aeronaut flips scum:

-Hooray!
-It is possible I will die tonight. I don't think it's optimal play to shoot me for scum, given that Aeronaut-scum would mean I'd have to re-evaluate the entire game, and my chances of shooting scum would be low, while they need that second kill in play to thin the herd. However, it's possible they'll shoot me over people like SilverWolf, who's close to conftown, because they think I'm more of a threat to them. I'm going to see who I'd ideally like gone in the case of an Aeronaut scumflip.

If Aeronaut flips town:

-Fuck.
-It's possible I won't shoot tonight if I'm not confident in myself to nail scum.
-Don't go into tomorrow with assumptions, if I'm not around. There's a reason they've killed me, a somewhat easy mislynch due to Aeronaut's flip, over you. It's likely your view of the game is outdated. However, I can't see why I won't be. We'll see what happens then.
-This wagon formed a lot easier than Marquis did. Note that. It's not all down to me pushing it through. I would bet my life there's a scum on it if Aero's town.

[T S O]

If Aero's scum I don't think it's with Marquis, dragonspawn or Ozgin.

[T S O]

It's likely to be goodmorning, Kitz or elusive.

[T S O]

So, what you're saying is, elusive is likely to be lying, and hence scum.

Yes, that's also what I'm saying.

[T S O]

Is this a joke?

[T S O]

It's not really coming across as that, honestly.

[T S O]

Post-hammer reactions between Ozgin, SW and Aero are off.

[T S O]

If Aeronaut is town I am genuinely fucking done.

[T S O]

But I don't think he is. I really, really don't. This play post-hammer is what I'd do as scum.

[T S O]

He's still playing to his win condition by not letting us set up for tomorrow in twilight.

Everyone: assume Aero flipped scum. Where are we going tomorrow?

[T S O]

Lmfao, we got you son.

[T S O]

goodmorning? You can prepare your apology.

[T S O]

How do you know there's not a vig in the game, Aero?

[T S O]

Answer honestly. Assume you're speaking to your teammates before you go.

[T S O]

He could be Bulletproof SK, and I'd be wasting my shot.
He could be Bulletproof town, and I'd be wasting my shot.
He could even be 1-shot Bulletproof Scum (saw it in Masquerade), and I'd be wasting my shot, unless that's been taken already.

There's a lot of variables to consider and I'm not confident enough to assume elusive is straight-up lying.

[T S O]

Aeronaut running away is, again, indicative of Aero-scum. He'd be here stoking up hell on his scum suspects if he had just flipped town.

[T S O]

Well, I see no reason why I'm not dying tonight, because it -is- optimal scum play to do so, much as I hate to admit it.

I'd better get in all my gloating while I can

[T S O]

Aeronaut running away is, again, indicative of Aero-scum. He'd be here stoking up hell on his scum suspects if he had just flipped town.

I don't understand why your trying to make a case on me post-lynch.

Just clearing up the WIFOM you're trying to spread, Aero.

[T S O]

Don't be mad at me for catching you. Be mad at you for getting caught.

[T S O]

Well, I see no reason why I'm not dying tonight, because it -is- optimal scum play to do so, much as I hate to admit it.

I'd better get in all my gloating while I can

Eh, this makes me think he's bulletproof

I endorse this product - don't bother shooting him.

[T S O]

Actually, Aero -is- talking to his scum buddies right now. I would take him at his word - I'm a Bulletproof SK. You're just wasting your bullets.

[T S O]

Marquis - sheep me. It's worked out fantastically so far.

[T S O]

I also appreciate the swipe at my credibility, Aero, now that your team understand that I am, in fact, a Bulletproof SK, and cannot be nightkilled.

[T S O]

Anyway - town, tonight we rejoice. The beer will follow, and strippers also.

goodmorning, I am considering placing you under house arrest for some quality introspection time.

[T S O]

I recommend scum both Role Cop me, if they have it, and shoot me - this way, no matter what, you get to know The Truth About TSO

TM

[T S O]

Okay, enough with the gloating.

Ironically, I could see scum doing the above - it's not actually bad play.

[T S O]

SilverWolf, I am on the verge of sending my action to ika and it's not even night yet.

[T S O]

.... I'm gonna miss you guys.

<3

[T S O]

Straight up; I went for the goodmorning kill because Aeronaut was so against it, because I've thought she's scum all game, and because she was one of the people pushing the counterwagon to Aeronaut. Nothing happened.

[T S O]

The Mafia kill is still fucking missing.

[T S O]

Well, I claim that I was not neighborized. Process of elemination.

So here's my absolutely terrific theory. There's two mafia factions with two members, Piss died leaving his team with just 1 guy left, and now Aero dead his team is also 1 guy left.
If this affects their ability of killing by being solo, then it can make sense... I think this is my best theory so far and ready to be butchered anytime.

P-Edit : Wouldn't the Vig claim being RB'd as Vig#1 or counterclaim if it's Vig#2?

And that's why they both flipped Mafia, in the same colour ...?

You're probably not familiar with multiball, Kitz. The two factions are either {Mafia, WW} or {Red Maf, Blue Maf} which both have unique colours.

And if it was multiball, then it would 2x scum kill + Vig every night. No-one died last night.

[T S O]

I should be dead, and I'm not. Scum must have a way to neutralise me.

[T S O]

What if Mafia targeted TSO and TSO targeted GM, GM bulletproof scum neighborizer and TSO bulletproof SK?

This is the worst fucking set-up spec ever. This would mean a single scum player is more powerful than TSO-SK. If anything, in this scenario, I'm groupscum - but I think we can safely assume my crusade on Aeronaut means that's false.

Well apparently there's 2 BPs at least now, GM and elusive. Why do you choose one over the other? I will agree, though, that I have pondered the idea of scum elusive.

See, when you make posts like this you make me worried about you, because I cannot fathom how your thought process is happy with hypothetically three bulletproof roles.

More to the point:

In your previous post, you said goodmorning was likely Bulletproof Scum Neighbouriser (like this is even a fucking thing, that's an SK-role if it exists, not fucking groupscum). So why are you okay with the thought of elusive being ...Bulletproof Scum? And goodmorning being... Bulletproof Scum? And you'll, in essence, lynch either happily?

with the town roles we know of i would be surprised if mafia didn't have a second manipulative role besides the nonconsec rb

This.

[T S O]

Tinfoil hat theory is goodmorning being some weird-ass SK variant; Compulsive Even-Night Neighboriser Bulletproof SK? And can't kill the nights where she compulsively neighbourises?

I know how ridiculous that may sound, but if you don't believe scum blocked me, then that's the next likely scenario.

[T S O]

I am saying I shot gm. End of mod-TSO communication. No return message. Nothing saying I was blocked. Blank. Etcetera.

[T S O]

She's not an Every-Night variant.

[T S O]

Okay, everyone, calm the fuck down. We're in a relatively okay position, thanks to Aeronaut's death.

[T S O]

Point I want to raise.

We believe gm to be a neighorizor on the word of aero and wolf. It is still possible that they are all scum.

Granted I still don't believe wolf is scum. But it's something we need to consider.

Gm why didn't you neighorize anyone again?

Let her confirm this - this is also extremely tinfoil hat btw.

[T S O]

Enough.

[T S O]

Town has a Vig, Tracker, Cop (Deputy doesn't count for this) in offensive roles. Scum needed at least 2 ways to either evade those or stop them. pisskop was one. Either they also had something like a Jailkeeper, or they had an immunity role like Ninja/GF, or they had both.

It kinda sucks that Aeronaut was the Goon.

[T S O]

mod deal with this, it's not going to blow over, and I want to get back to the game

[T S O]

Modkill ends the day, so not that.

[T S O]

3-shot Commuter?

[T S O]

I have to say I am naturally wary of anything people claim as 3-shot, but that's because I particularly don't like it as a design mechanic and I think it's kinda an easy fakeclaim.

Crumbs?

[T S O]

Sigh.

What nights?

[T S O]

Can we talk about Ozgin for a bit?

[T S O]

Also tbqh I probably wouldn't tell anyone else on this playerlist to fuck off except tso because I know he can deal with it.

<3

[T S O]

For once I agree with gm here.

[T S O]

I'm of the belief that there is scum, almost 100%, in {SW, gm, Ozgin} because of that. I don't think it's SW, to be honest. I've asked that we discuss Ozgin but nothing really happened because a spat broke out.

[T S O]

@TSO: I really don't think SilverWolf is Scum.

Like I said, I agree. Meaning it's you or Ozgin.

[T S O]

I feel like goodmorning is way too easy. I know that mightn't make sense, but gut says that the no kill is manipulation. Either goodmorning got Doctored by her scumbuddy, which is admittedly possible, or my kill was somehow stopped. Really feeling the latter.

[T S O]

Feel better about Marquis after yesterday, I think? That was slick scumplay if he managed to pull it off.

[T S O]

Feel less good about Kitz, on wagon placement alone.

[T S O]

There are at least 2 scum left, don't kid yourself. Probably more.

[T S O]

GM, why we're you town reading aero so strongly?

This is a good question which can actually lead to productive discussion.

*glares at town*

[T S O]

i have priorities and i don't much care for the gm distraction at the moment. the elusive wagon

needs

to go through.

you think the Commuter claim is a lie?

[T S O]

VOTE: Ozgin

[T S O]

*grumbles*

[T S O]

I am V/LA, and will be for at least a week. I am so sorry, guys, but access is impossible right now.

I'd lynch Ozgin > gm.

[T S O]

I'm here, back from V/LA. Apparently there's a counterclaim? Fucking lynch it with fire please.

[T S O]

Vote: Green Crayons

[T S O]

This whole thing is obviously bullshit - just fucking look at SilverWolf's stances on me yesterday. Then you can vote Green Crayons.

[T S O]

We might... y'know... No-Lynch and watch the world burn as the two vig claimers attack eachothers?

I can't kill tonight, scum get a kill, I may or may not die due to my death sealing GC's lynch. We're not doing this.

[T S O]

Can you explain why SilverWolf didn't counterclaim?

[T S O]

Actually, scratch that; you should explain why SilverWolf openly sheeped me.

If your argument is "I can't justify my predecessor's play" fucking forget it.

[T S O]

you should be fucking ashamed of your play Marquis

[T S O]

I have been V/LA for 12 days instead of like 14, which was a rough estimate, and you're actually citing that as me being scum.

I haven't had Internet for nearly 2 weeks - I have so much to do, and I don't have the energy for a full-scale push. Green Crayons' claim is utter bullshit, considering that means, with TSO-SK, at least 2 kills every night, sometimes 3. We've had no kills multiple nights. That alone should point to him being a liar.

[T S O]

i thought we agreed you were going to take the blame for this

i don't need any more, i already know i suck as town

Wallow in self-pity if you want, but stop fucking me for it. I have shot scum n1, and almost singlehandedly lynched scum on d5. I am the only reason Town is even in this game anymore. Now I'm being lynched on the most fucking nonsensical counterclaim ever.

I mean, he literally looked at elusive, saw 3-shot had flipped, and decided to claim it.

[T S O]

If you're SK and you believe I'm scum fakeclaiming vig, yes you do.
If you're scum and you believe I'm a Bulletproof SK because you tried to shoot me last night, yes you do.

You're doing your best to claim you have no reason to do this, but you have any amount of reasons to do it.

[T S O]

If you're SK and you believe I'm scum fakeclaiming vig, yes you do.
If you're scum and you believe I'm a Bulletproof SK because you tried to shoot me last night, yes you do.

You're doing your best to claim you have no reason to do this, but you have any amount of reasons to do it.

hoooooooly shit everyone

vote self-proclaimed not-town TSO

It's so difficult to play with people who don't read.

Go back and read what I said, then again, then sigh in despair at your own reading comprehension.

[T S O]

okay fuck off

[T S O]

you're scumreading me for coming back early

it's a fucking retarded thought process

which also implies that I was scouting my games throughout my V/LA strategetically

[T S O]

The other thing I'm putting out there is, in a role heavy setup (?) is it possible mafia have a doctor and therefore vig kill isn't going through because of that? Considering we had two?

It is possible that scum have another PR besides RBer but there is really no way to know for sure. I'm not sure if we have a vig or if we do, if it was just one shot or what.

Set-up spec, outguess the mod-probably won't get us anywhere.

OTOH-a vig with X-shot would explain all those kills N1.

Ugh.............................again.

I'm not the vig.

Marquis-elusive is not the vig

There were 3 kill attempts N1-there has to be a vig, no one has cc'd TSO, so he's the vig.

The fact that I am the only one pointing out the clear bullshit surrounding this claim worries me.

[T S O]

I like my assessment of TSO's mindset enough to think he's SK over Ozgin.

It's probably fair to say I have felt 4 attacks overall this game.

-RVS large wagon, which I defused without getting angry or accusative, or to use your terminology, "that's unfair"
-Cheetory early d4, which I defused calmly without once saying "that's unfair"
-Your attack on me d5, where I said "That's OMGUS" - so, to clarify, not "that's unfair"
-The shit on me now, where your current vote reason is "he came back from V/LA early". Yes, I'm calling that unfair. Who could possibly know why?

Your analysis of my mindset is literally nonsense.

[T S O]

Ozgin, you presumably shot me last night, yeah?

[T S O]

Can you quote where I have done this in relation to, let's say, Cheetory? Because I haven't.

[T S O]

Ozgin's play

still doesn't make sense from a Town perspective.

Yesterday, in an attempt to push through a lynch on you, I claimed Vig. Ozgin saw that.
At that stage, Ozgin had two options - counterclaim me, which would almost certainly have lead to my death, or go along with me and shoot me last night.
If Ozgin did not shoot me last night that conclusively proves he is lying.

I am waiting for Ozgin's clarification on shooting me before I continue on this train of thought.

[T S O]

Ozgin claims to have shot you but not successfully.

Forgive me, but I'd like him to explicitly state this so there's no get-out clause.

[T S O]

maybe tso is a mafia god or something. He can do whatever the heck he wants.

We already knew this, though.

[T S O]

He thinks there's another.

Marquis; I want Ozgin fullclaiming before we go any further, I'm fairly sure there are large discrepancies in his claim.

[T S O]

VOTE: Ozgin

He's lying. Even if you think it's me, I am dead tomorrow, so you're getting a dead SK no matter what.

It's not me, but I'm trying to entice people to just fucking lynch the SK.

[T S O]

I did not shoot you

[T S O]

@Shinobi

[T S O]

Dragonspawn is basically softclaiming the fact Ozgin is lying.

[T S O]

Dragonspawn has no fucking reason to lie, Shinobi.

[T S O]

it's also shady as fuck Ozgin hasn't told us where he's shot, for what it's worth

[T S O]

My apologies, I haven't been reading whatever he's been posting because I know it's bullshit.

[T S O]

"I killed pisskop"

I'm fucking done

[T S O]

Pisskop was playing a pretty solid scumgame; he was under the radar for almost everyone. The only reason I pegged him was because I had previous scum meta of him first-hand. You're fucking lying out of your ass.

[T S O]

He has literally fucking ZERO mentions of pisskop by himself d1, he never once made any point at all of suspecting him/calling him out.

He is so blatantly lying about this.

[T S O]

No, really, anyone who believes him in this has to seriously question what the hell they are doing.

[T S O]

"Why did you shoot pisskop"
"o lucky random shot"

fucking. lol.

[T S O]

I will take the flak if you magically flip Vig, I'll get insta-lynched. It's whatever, I don't honestly give a fuck, I know you are lying, and I know you're trying to emotionally manipulate people by holding the hammer over yourself when you don't actually intend to hammer yourself. You're just pretending you do.

[T S O]

This is the worst fucking town, agreed, ('cept us cheet) but he's not a part of it.

[T S O]

Cheetory, I could never break your heart like that.

[T S O]

Remember Aeronaut! Remember the feelings of doubt and paranoia you had, and the euphoria you felt when you saw that red flip! Channel that for me.

[T S O]

"TSO is using AtE"
"I'LL HAMMER MYSELF I SWEAR I WILL"

[T S O]

Flail harder please.

[T S O]

No, it's basically me humorously re-affirming to people you're scum.

[T S O]

No self-hammer, no? Didn't think so.

Don't say you have intention to it if you don't actually have intention to do it.

[T S O]

he's scum, don't worry

[T S O]

What were you saying before you left, Ozgin? We can have some friendly banter now you're hanging like a good SK.

[T S O]

Another scum dead, by TSO's hands.

[T S O]

Thanks, buddy. I admired your gambit too - you had multiple players duped with it.

I don't get why you were so eager to remove me though?

[T S O]

Unless I'm on the verge of beating your scumteam like a veritable stepchild, in which case maybe they felt you were more expirable than your scumbuddies.

[T S O]

Want to tell us how many scumbuddies you have left? I'll put in a good word for you at the Pearly Gates if you do.

[T S O]

At least one? At least 2.

[T S O]

We're fucking loaded with power this game, scum either have numbers or power to compensate. Seems more likely to be the former with flips.

[T S O]

Marquis, you had your chance to have your own opinions and you blew it. You're on sheep duty for the rest of the game.

[T S O]

Look at the big bad SK, bossing the town around like he's the fucking mayor lol.

The sheep follow a wolf in sheep's clothing here, man.

Hey, word from the wise - you gotta be more subtle when you're flinging mud. You want to give off the "I don't care, he's SK, just sayin'" vibe, not the "He IS SK! Did you hear that? HE'S AN SK I SAID!". Otherwise, people might think you were still trying to aid your faction or something crazy like that.

[T S O]

This game has been incredibly, incredibly frustrating in many different parts, but despite that, I don't think I've enjoyed a game as much in a long, long time.The dance has truly been a pleasure, Ozgin. Your steps were almost perfect.

[T S O]

Soft you; a word or two before you go.
I have done the state some service, and they know't.
No more of that. I pray you, in your letters,
When you shall these unlucky deeds relate,
Speak of me as I am; nothing extenuate,
Nor set down aught in malice: then must you speak
Of one that loved not wisely but too well;
Of one not easily jealous, but being wrought
Perplex'd in the extreme; of one whose hand,
Like the base Indian, threw a pearl away
Richer than all his tribe; of one whose subdued eyes,
Albeit unused to the melting mood,
Drop tears as fast as the Arabian trees
Their medicinal gum. Set you down this;
And say besides, that in Aleppo once,
Where a malignant and a turban'd Turk
Beat a Venetian and traduced the state,
I took by the throat the circumcised dog,
And smote him, thus.

*tips hat to the Mafia, fades into the darkness*

[T S O]

[T S O]

Well played, Cheetory and scumteam. Your best play was backing off your push on me - it came across as very genuine and essentially allowed you to saunter home.

[T S O]

Nah, I just thought you'd decided I was scum. I guess in retrospect the reasoning you gave could have been considered a little strange but I've seen town push much stranger logic, so meh? I'm not disappointed; it sucks that I got RC'd, but I was relatively happy with my play. I had a lot of obstacles to overcome this game and managed to get over many of them.

It feels good to win a Large, doesn't it? Winning a Mini never really compares.

[T S O]

we did have some great banter.

[T S O]

TSO, you're literally the scariest scum/3rd party I've ever played against, you scared the piss out of me.

`

Aww, I love you too Ozgin.

Yea, honestly Pisskop told us to do some really smart things, and we didn't do most of them :/

Any chance of the scum PT, hmm?

[T S O]

If you really want, delete the post?

[T S O]