Surreptitious II: Secrets and Misdirection

[Bulbazak]

2. LYNCH 1 SCUM FROM EACH GROUP.
3. LYNCH THE OTHER SCUM IN A WAY THAT MAXIMIZES CONFTOWNS

I'm really interested in you expounding on these 2 steps in the plan. I spent the pregame trying to figure out the best way to approach this game, and I'm not sure how well this approach will work overall. In fact, my gut reaction is that this simplified strategy that you're presenting could have a higher chance of backfiring on us. Now, some of your later statements lead me to believe that your strategy is more intricate, so I just want to know the specifics on this plan.

Vote: Group B

Both Majiffy and I are inside of it - this sounds like money to me.

I'm not sure why you think that's a good idea. That would mean that one of you or Majiffy would likely be the NK, since scum would be forced to kill in that group.

[Bulbazak]

GROUP A DOESN'T WANT TO BE LYNCHED

GROUP C DOESN'T WANT TO BE LYNCHED

JUST VOTE FOR GROUP B

SO EASY

What if group B doesn't want lynched?

Hi everyone, I'm excited to play my first large theme and second game on this site!
Please be gentle.

Vote: Bulbazak

That's okay, Newbie! I've brought my lube! It's what you do when Checkers shows up. That, and make sure you don't cheat on exercise the next day.

[Bulbazak]

Find a corner to stand in sexily and practice your love poems?

[Bulbazak]

Hey bulb how come you are sure that both Thor and Jiffy are town?

I'm not, but it's extremely likely that at least one is. If either or both are town, it'd be nice to have them around for as long as possible, so I'm not really wild about the idea of giving scum the guaranteed ability to kill some of the best players in the game right off the bat.

[Bulbazak]

Cool. Reason?

[Bulbazak]

Yeah, it's been awhile since I've played with her, and I kinda remember that she tends to ask questions that most people would think are deceptive at face value. Part of me goes "I hate that question." while another part goes "Yeah, but I think that's just a Rach thing.", and then I shrug and think I'll just wait to see how things play out. Overall, I like how your group is sorting itself out.

[Bulbazak]

People hate my questions because they are trying to scum read me or see it as scummy when my reasons for asking have to do with figuring out other people's motivations if they are scum or town.

People scumread your questions because they look disingenuous, and you tend to ask questions with really obvious answers. It really looks like you're coming at your question from an angle, rather than just trying to figure out the other player's motivations. Add in that you tend to have activity issues, and that leads to you being an easy scumread.

I do agree both those players would be good to have alive if they're town

But he's putting way too much stock in both of them actually being town which nerves me a bit, and I liked your call out of that.

I never said that they were town, and you seem to be agreeing with my thought process anyway.

i don't have any confident reads in b other than a townlean on thor

Explain why Thor agreeing with the majority to lynch within his own group makes you think town.

ANIME ALT NO WE NEED B TODAY

hardclaim lyncher to group B

What are your reasons for wanting to lynch in that group again?

Nah.

The only AI post is probably Thor’s.

Same as Transcend: Explain.

You're not making a very good impression >:(

Yeah I know...

But I’m not getting lynched so no biggie

I feel like this is scum signalling to their buddies.

This is the first post of yours that I think might be coming from scum.

I totally missed there were not PT links in half the scum PMs. anyway, lets wait for the mod and stop mechanics speccing yes.

You missed there being no PT links in the samples, yet you got on me for somehow misreading the OP concerning nks? Still looking into that, btw. I'm going to be looking at the last game to see how that was handled.

Going to start back at page 10 when the craziness around here subsides.

[Bulbazak]

we're long past Rathscum. we on LUV softing scum rn

Cool. Checkers scum confirmed.

I think the Uzz is town

Town reads on Transcend, Rach, and Bulb
Null town on Checker
Scum reads on LUV, Ginngie, Elli, and ConMan

Town reads are good. Scum reads could use some work. I think the only one I might agree on is ConMan.

ur reads are self inconsistent

also I am triggered every time people say groups are scummier than other groups rn lmao that is like holding a sign that says "I'm bad"

What do you mean by "self inconsistent"
Additionally, I never said that a group is more scummy. Independently, I have more scum reads in a specific group. Therefore, I should vote that group. What's wrong with that?

scum reads on one person in a group raise town chances of others by obviousity. look at your reads again.

and yes I didn't say having more scumreads in a group than another is scummy it's just bad lmao

It's d1. This is bad, and you should feel bad.

Bulbazak is scum

InactionDan is scum

Assembler is town

I would ask you to explain, but you seem incapable of doing so.

I legit haven't played a single game of mafia in like 2 years I don't know why you think I'm worth a damn beyond shouting loudly and demeaning people merely on the basis that they disagree with me.

And I've forgotten most of the tells I used to read most of the players on the site. So what? You just start from a new 0. I still think that if you're town, in a group of the right people, you would be more of a benefit to the town than a hinderance, and I'm going to stand by that for the time being. Also, I was looking forward to trying to get grumpy cat pics from you.

[Bulbazak]

Haven't been wrong on you yet, Checkie. Not planning on starting now.

Also, I just went back to check the first Serreptitious, and mafia NKs are forced to be from the group that was chosen to be lynched in the first day phase. You wrong, Checkie, but I think you knew that and were just trying to throw everyone off of what you were doing. After all, it is an open setup.

VOTE: Group C

P-edit: Having multiple scumreads does not mean that you think they're all connected, especially on d1, when we have the least amount of info. If we had a scum flip already in one of the groups, I'd agree with you. But with nothing? Yeah, the old "there's only X amount of scum" rhetoric isn't going to work. And you know this. This is basic crap.

[Bulbazak]

Also, I just went back to check the first Serreptitious, and mafia NKs are forced to be from the group that was chosen to be lynched in the first day phase.

:blinking:
This is EXACTLY the point that I made? Which is why lynching 1 scum from each group is optimal???? What in the everloving hell are you trying to say with this?

I thought you were telling me to look back at the NK rules in response to my question to Thor, telling me that I was interpreting them wrong. Looking back, it seems you were responding about my earlier question. I'm not sure why that's a factor to only killing 1 scum from a group at a time. I think it would depend more on which scum you kill and whether you can PoE the last scum out, but that's neither here nor there. It also doesn't answer the question of why B?

P-edit: Having multiple scumreads does not mean that you think they're all connected, especially on d1, when we have the least amount of info. If we had a scum flip already in one of the groups, I'd agree with you. But with nothing? Yeah, the old "there's only X amount of scum" rhetoric isn't going to work. And you know this. This is basic crap.

Uhm. No see if you have 3 scumreads in a group and you KNOW there are only 2 scum that's a giant blinking light that says RE-EVALUATE YOUR SCUMDAR. not license to be like HURR LETS LYNCH EM ALL.

Shit man if I had 20 scumreads this game I'd have nailed the scumteam and I can start patting myself on the back? Is that really what you're saying?

I'm saying that not all scumreads are created equal. Personally, I'd rather lynch from a group that had a lot of good town reads and 1-2 scumreads, with anyone else in a place that I could feel I can solidly figure them out. That's where I am with C. However, if there's a bunch of people you find scummy in a group, and you feel solidly on at least one of them, I can see wanting to explore that. It's if there's a lack of reevaluation that I'd start to get worried.

@Thor: What is up with you this game?

P-edit: Seriously? This is all about policy? Like, I'm not seeing how this is supposed to come from town Checkers, as I'm pretty sure he'd spot the whole "scum are more likely to kill a strong town in this group than town are to lynch a scum.".

[Bulbazak]

@Thor: What is up with you this game?

Nothing that I'm aware of.

You seem to be a lot more sheepy than normal. This concerns me.

[Bulbazak]

Reasons. I also think he's too easy.

[Bulbazak]

Town players make that post all the time. If you want me to think he's scum, don't come at it from the angle of "I don't believe in softs.".

[Bulbazak]

Did you sneak a look at someone else's role PM, Checkie?

[Bulbazak]

The question really should be "Does

LUV

makes this post as town or as scum?". This isn't a generic town/scum argument, this is a LUV argument, which is why I think this "he softed" argument is dumb and likely a distraction.

[Bulbazak]

How am I being sheepy?

Are you claiming you had your own reasons to vote your own group and that you weren't following the avalanche of B votes? What about your C vote? That group is starting to get a lot of attention now. Was your vote not influenced by that?

Reasons. I also think he's too easy.

What are those reasons?

Mostly unsolidified gut. I think that his posts are likely to come from a town place, but if you were to ask me to give you an essay on why, I'd likely be unable to do so.

P-edit: I'm saying that I think LUV is probably the type of player to do this sort of thing without thinking. I've seen it before, and he kinda fits what I'd expect to see. I don't think it's folding, but probably not thinking. If you have experience otherwise, go ahead and give it, but this is looking like a kneejerk lynch to me.

[Bulbazak]

Bulb, hypothetical. The town PR in group B dies at night and it's not LUV. Does it get rope instantly yes/no?

I would push into Group B myself.

BULB hurry the F up and respond

I'm not constantly refreshing this game, you know. I have other things I need to do.

[Bulbazak]

Yes

[Bulbazak]

And even if he's scum who claims town PR, do you really think he'll get CC?

[Bulbazak]

And even if he's scum who claims town PR, do you really think he'll get CC?

....yes, by the real town PR

[Bulbazak]

@Ginngie: Probably

[Bulbazak]

Wrong theme game pal.

[Bulbazak]

I want to watch the video, but I'm at work...

[Bulbazak]

I think you're missing that having all town PRs claim only breaks the setup for one side, and it's not the town one.

[Bulbazak]

And regardless of LUV's role, whether town PR, stupid VT, or scum (goon or traitor, doesn't matter), there's no way that a town PR in that group CCs him during DAY PHASE FREAKING ONE! That would essentially be signing their own death warrant, which would not be worth it at this point. They'd be more likely to just try to steer the lynch LUV's way anyway, because there's more than enough players who'd be willing to lynch him. The very thought is scum-sided, and not town-sided.

[Bulbazak]

The very thought is scum-sided, and not town-sided.

but im town so your argument is invalid

Stop and think who benefits more from asking a player to claim during day phase 1 on day 1. If LUV was ran up, I'd understand, but he's not even in danger, and Checkers is trying to get a claim. One way or the other, he wants to out the town PR in Group B. This isn't about whether or not LUV is the town PR. This is about locking down the town PR in Group B before we get to the lynching phase or the night phase (also known as scum have a gun and aren't afraid to use it phase).

[Bulbazak]

he's not even in danger

??????????????????

DPI ends in (expired on 2017-11-19 19:13:00)

I stand by what I said. If you get Group B selected, and we're looking to lynch, then we'll talk. For you, this should be trying to get at LUV, not trying to get him CC'd.

P-edit: You're still missing who benefits, Ginngie.

[Bulbazak]

what's the difference between having LUV claim and be counter claimed, meaning we all vote B and proceed to lynch

VERSUS

We all vote B, adn then LUV claims and be counter claimed and proceed to lynch

There are few fundamental differences based on the order of operations, but the biggest problem with scenario 1 is that I don't think anyone would CC claim, regardless of LUV's actual role.

Honestly guys, we don't need a D1 claim.

Plus, there are plenty of other poss scum in B.

LUV shouldn't need to claim. He should simply be put under the microscope along with Snarky and Rauth. The time focused on him would be good for a read and even if we are not sure, we have 2 other likely scum.

This guy gets it. And given the rest of his posts, I'm pretty comfortable giving him a town read.

Bulb, reads so far?

I really don't have our group figured out. I got a town ping from Elli, but I still need more. I also think I liked something from WhyMafia, but I can't remember what it was. Group B is more null. Majiffy and Thor are "wait and see". Momo is town. I have a town lean on LUV, although I'm starting to get annoyed by his need to troll. I also have a scum lean on Mick. In Group C I have town leans on Rach, Transcend, and Mikan. I have a scumread on Checkers. Out of all the groups, that's the one I feel the most solid at being able to crack. I think I can figure out Desp and Ginngie by d2, and then Vonflare is just PoE.

[Bulbazak]

@Mikan: You don't like Momo? I like Momo.

[Bulbazak]

@Mikan: You don't like Momo? I like Momo.

Are you illiterate?

That was a hint for you to go further into your Momo read.

[Bulbazak]

And game theory questions for everyone: What is the best way for town to benefit from the Groups system? Should we focus on a single group? Spread the attention evenly? Our town PRs have different abilities depending on group size, should we try and get a town PR of each ability? On the other hand, Traitors have different abilities based on group size, should we focus on getting/keeping them to their weakest?

It depends. I say we lynch scum first and then evaluate. Our decision is probably going to be influenced by what sort of scum was lyched, how the numbers in the group affect future play, and the individual strength of reads inside that group (for example, if scum is lynched in C, and you have strong enough reads that you think you can PoE the last scum with little to no downsides, that'd be good enough imo to go for the last scum in the group.). Getting stuck in a static "This is how we're going to do this, no matter what!" is dangerous and can be manipulated by scum who know what they're doing. I'm also very nervous about the idea of keeping the groups at equal sizes for ever and ever amen, when group size means nothing when it comes to PoE. We have the original groups on the first page, we can always use that to PoE, and differing sizes really won't affect that. The only thing you really need to keep size in mind for are PRs.

But I'm thinking that this whole theory line of thought is turning into a red herring anyway.

CCs should always be immediate. If scum claims the PR first you're giving scum a lot of room to play with and lead town to disasterville by d3

And what do you think of trying to coax a CC out before getting to the lynching phase?

And my "narratives" are not bad or spun. They are what I believe. I am scum hunting.

Town can't even spin those naratives they don't have enough information. The fact you can is mind blowing.

This is a semantics argument, and it is bad.

Outing the Alt is just flat out rude btw.

Now that I know who you are, I'm looking at your slot a lot differently, and you're getting hard knocked into null.

I'm reminded of my argument with Mathblade in Night & Day, and I think Checkers is trying to bog this down into a theory argument, when my reason for scumreading his actions are so much more than that. I'll be typing that up in a little bit.

[Bulbazak]

its an open setup you CC every time instantly

even you aren't this bad Bulb

And you're the one doing the fishing.

[Bulbazak]

I know enough of you M to know what you're doing. It's not helping my read of you.

[Bulbazak]

M is Mikan. She's adopting a tactic of Chess's to make sure I stay off her back.

[Bulbazak]

Considering bring group C to L-2...what do y'all think. Checker, Desperado, and Alisae are all in that group. Good feeling that 2 of them are scum...The narrowed down situation while still keep a few options seems good to be. Yet is this too hasty. Should I do it? What do y'all think?

Okay, M, this one actually stinks.

[Bulbazak]

Haven't been wrong on you yet, Checkie. Not planning on starting now.

Xyzzy called btw and it wants you to stop lying

I'm sorry. I must have missed you flipping town that game.

Agree WhyMafia is town btw
As are Elli + InactionDan + Mikan + (likely) Vonflare + sadly likely Transcend.

Anybody seeing what's off here?

[Bulbazak]

chesskid3

popular survivor day 3 vigilante

chesskid3

survivor

survivor

NOT TOWN

[Bulbazak]

Just because you decided to play as town the last few days does not mean that you were town or that my read that you were not town was wrong.

[Bulbazak]

You didn't become the most pro-town player until near the end of the game, and I called you out on day 1. You didn't start playing pro-town until Screen ticked you off.

[Bulbazak]

And the blatant discredit attempt is noted.

[Bulbazak]

I didn't start this fight. Look back at who did, and ask why.

[Bulbazak]

I didn't start this fight. Look back at who did, and ask why.

Bull. Shit. You started this fight in essentially your first post.

I stated a fact: That I've been able to correctly read you in every game we've played in so far. There are multiple ways that a town Chess would look at this statement and approach it, mostly by either rolling your eyes and going "lol", or talking about how past accuracy has nothing to do with present accuracy, or just anything that focuses on how that statement alone does not justify a freaking scumread on you, which means said statement is a non-argument, and I'd think you'd want to go after the real arguments. Instead, you wait until TBD ends, bypass the actual real scum arguments, and focus on attacking my ability to read you. And when I show that my statement was still accurate, even with TBD included, you don't try to argue that, but you come at it slantwise by misquoting something I said in postgame that essentially amounted to "Good game, Chess. You ended up outtowning the town even though you weren't town." as though you've never heard of the concept of a non-town player playing extremely pro-town even though they don't have a town win condition (from that perspective, SKs that act like pro-town vigs are town and not scum). This shows that your purpose was to slander, smear, and discredit my statement, instead of tackling the reasons I scumread you, as a means to get rid of any pressure I am or could deliver on your slot.

Hot Take
Checkers is scum.

Ya think?

Page 10

What players think about Rauther here?

I'm still on the fence. I think his slot will get sorted over time.

Page 14

Who else townreads InactionDan other than checkers?

I'm undecided on Dan atm.

Page 33

Elliberetta scum

Nah. He's pretty town.

Mikan also goes into the solid town category.

[Bulbazak]

[Agree WhyMafia is town btw
As are Elli + InactionDan + Mikan + (likely) Vonflare + sadly likely Transcend.

I need to quit assuming that people can see what I see, and that I can just prod them in the right direction. So let's talk about what's wrong with this statement. Hint: It's the town reads. Why/Elli/Dan are called town in Group A. That's fine (although there are some danger signs there, but I'd need to go into a full long post about why I'm scumreading Checkers for that to make sense). No, what should be setting off alarm bells are that he gives townreads on Mikan, Vonflare, and Transcend, who are all in Group C. Why is that important? Well, because Checkers is in C himself, which only has 7 players total with 2 scum. So assuming that Checkers has himself as town (and why wouldn't he), that would leave only 3 names left, with 2 scum in them from his PoE PoV. That also makes me wonder about Ginngie, since Checkers left her off the list, and it seemed like he had a townread there before. If he is still townreading Ginngie, he should believe he has both scum in C locked down. Boom! Group solved! But even if he doesn't think Ginngie is town anymore, or that she's null, that's still a 2/3 chance to lynch scum in C. So why lynch in B again, where he doesn't have solid reads and only a hate boner for LUV?

As Checkers himself would say: BOOP BOOP! ERROR DETECTED!

[Bulbazak]

Elli, I know we're not going to agree on Checkers, but talk to me about another read. I want to clear my head from that for awhile, and I won't even think about typing that longer post until tonight when I get home.

P-edit: I don't remember Creature ever making a checklist. I just have that as null for now. Creature really hasn't towned it up enough for me yet.

[Bulbazak]

I want to see Creature out of catchup mode. That will tell me a lot more.

P-edit: I didn't want you to explain a read. I just wanted to talk about another read other than Chess for awhile. Mainly just talk. The P-edit was in response to another post.

[Bulbazak]

I work front desk at a hotel. I'm bored, so I play mafia when nothing's happening. I work on videos or stream on the side. Way way on the side. (I don't have as much free time as I'd like.).

[Bulbazak]

Wut you stream? Games on twitch?

I try to as regularly as I can, although life has gotten in the way the past couple of months. I try to stay consistent on Fridays and stream a little show called First Impressions, where I play the first 3 hours of a game I've never played before and give my thoughts after I've finished. I'm currently working on getting the archives up on YouTube, but that might be awhile.

Also are you good at reading eddie he's the guy you hydra with yeah.

I know some things to look for, and I can tell you if something is NAI. He proved in TBD that he knows how to manipulate my read of him if he wants, but I was vigged early d2, so it's hard to know if my read in the dead thread would have held up to any interactions I'd have with him. If something's NAI, I'll explain why. I normally give him a day so that I can get a better read, and I don't expect him start ramping up in activity until d2 or so. Other than that, ask me how I feel about him on d3.

[Bulbazak]

on the flip side how good do you think eddie is at reading you

I believe that there are certain aspects of my town game that he will be able to spot and use to reliably read me. I don't think I've been as obv. town as some more recent games, but there should be more than enough for him to build a reliable read after a few days.

I'll get back to answering the other questions later. I want to make sure I'm not forgetting anything when I answer.

and it seemed like he had a townread there(Ginngie) before

well u know what they say about assumptions

sadly I'm not an ass so can you not thanks.

Okay, what is your read on Ginngie currently?

[Bulbazak]

But basicly what it narrows down to is that fact that scum!Chess is probably not thinking the way Bulba is describing because scum think things in a much much more simpler way then what he is describing.

I'm saying that scum is probably not going to think like that, their plans are a lot more simpler then Bulba is making them out to be. Their thoughts are a lot more simpler.

LOL
Let me translate: "Scum are stupid and have the basic instinctual process of a T-Rex. No planning goes into being scum at all!"
Now, I'm not saying that scum are making Mousetrap-esque plans, but I do expect a certain level of competence from certain players as scum. I'm also looking at what I expect a player to do or say as town, and then calling them out when they don't do so. When a player makes a big deal about PoE this game, and then turns around and avoids that very same PoE, it should make people wary, because something is definitely wrong there. And when I say that I think that there's a reason that scum Checkers would want to focus on B, that doesn't imply that he's sitting behind a chessboard twirling his mustache, but that doesn't mean the flipside of Checkers throwing darts at letters is true, either. The most plausible answer would be that scum Checkers is trying to survive (not vote C) and appease his Princeton pals into writing him off as town (being more active and not voting A, even though he could probably PoE that group out quicker if he was town who believed he could get good reads on his buddies). There's also benefits to voting in B when it comes to night kills, but I don't think Checkers is thinking that actively about that, except maybe when it came to trying to get an early claim.

Not everyone thinks like you and the ability to understand that and see from their point of view is a great skill to have

Yeah, trying to get over that. Sometimes I think what I see is so obvious, and then I get frustrated when no one else sees it. I'm trying to explain my thought process more. Although, I doubt I'm going to lay it all out on Checkers like I planned, because I'm thinking of just offering Elli a ceasefire and see what develops.

After thinking about it people are much more sure of who scum is within Group B (At least from what I've seen). Therefore, VOTE: Group B

(L-2) (Group C: L-3)

wtf

scum Dan doesn't have the fire hes had for the scumlords here.

we disagree on reads all the time but the approach is towndan

This is probably the most active I've seen Dan in awhile, and I'm not sure what to make of that.

[Bulbazak]

VOTE: ConManMick

Only good vote imo.

[Bulbazak]

LUV and Momo are town. Majiffy and Thor get sorted later. Snarky or Rauth could be scum, but they're also lynchbait, so there'll be an easy push or two in that direction. Mick is the only one that for sure ticks my scumdar, and doesn't fall in the "lynchbait so could be off" category.

[Bulbazak]

Also, your scumdar needs to go back to the shop for recalibration.

[Bulbazak]

why not try to sort thor/majiffy now if they're the two best players in this group. that reads like you being lazy

Their alignments will become more evident later in the game. So I'm not too worried about trying to rush into a read. Besides, I actually have a town read on one of them, but not going to tell who, because it's more fun to see you try to work out what I'm thinking.

[Bulbazak]

Good for you.

[Bulbazak]

1123 - The fact you scumread Rauth is mindblowing he is like obvtown.
more lolbulba

You need to go back and reread, because that's not what I said.

If anyone's here, answer: Which of {Majiffy, Thor665, momo, ConManMick} can you sort easier?

I feel like that's a question I can't really answer, as I don't have equal experience with all of them, and even then, I wouldn't treat them the same way. Why are you asking this question and not just straight up asking reads on these slots?

[Bulbazak]

I feel like Mikan's actually not reading anything I say.

[Bulbazak]

You're going to have to Assemble more on that. What do you mean, exactly?

[Bulbazak]

I feel like Mikan's actually not reading anything I say.

Also yeah I really don't need to read your posts if you're town imo.

[Bulbazak]

@Eddie: How did you get your Thor and Majiffy townreads?

[Bulbazak]

I feel like Mikan's actually not reading anything I say.

Any stuff yours we can take a look at?

There's a nice ISO button located near the top of every post. You can always look and engage from there. However, the point is that Mikan was attacking what I was saying and then simultaneously saying that she's not reading anything I'm saying. And she also seems to be unaware of the points I actually did make or what I actually did say, but she just disagrees with them, ya know?

I scumread Mikan now.

I would think scum Mikan would be bullheaded on Momo and continue to push a point she knows is bad, but maybe she knows that's what people are looking for now. What bothers me more is how volatile she's being this game, as if by being unpleasant she can avoid any scrutiny.

Btw, does someone have a case for CMM?

Not really. Is that a problem? I mean, I can talk about how I think he came across as fake and having an agenda, but really, it's been awhile, and I forget my big reasons for scumreading him. I just know that I had a strong scumread on the slot, and that's good enough for me until I see something that tells me otherwise. I've also not heard a single thing about why some people think he's town.

Why are you town reading momo? he has basically pointed the finiger at most of his group as scum? Has he even read the OP? You can't have 4 scum at this point in the game in one of the 3 groups.

And why does that mean he's scum and not clueless town?

Why is there resistance to my vote

Maybe because it's a meaningless vanity vote with no real backing that you're not even trying to push? Just spitballing here.

I really like Thor coming out of that conversation with Elli. I'd like to see more of that, only from something more alignment bearing.

Lunch and work and things. Will pick this up when I get back.
Onto page 56.

[Bulbazak]

Who we're totally not lynching today out of Group B?

Rauth Thor Snarky Majiffy Momo

I'm willing to settle on Mick because he isn't really playing. LUV is ideal.

B a a a a a a d

Post

What's bad about it?

One of the sentences in it. Can you find it?

There's nothing wrong with anything Majiffy said. And if you think there is, then it's up to you to say what it is and why. I've done the entire "Can you see the naked mermaid?" schtick, and it doesn't work.

dont lynch con

Why not?

@Eddie: How did you get your Thor and Majiffy townreads?

gut thru and thru and when I get that gut feel, I stick to it.

Uh, no. I remember specifically telling you earlier that Thor and Majiffy are "wait and see" reads. And you know me enough to know that means "This player is difficult to read. Take your time." aka gut is not good enough. I would think that as town you'd trust me enough not to run face first into a contentious town read with just gut. So yeah, I'm not buying this, and I need more from you sir.

Spoiler: However, you are right about this needing to die with fire.

@Eddie: How did you get your Thor and Majiffy townreads?

gut thru and thru and when I get that gut feel, I stick to it. Caught up now (thank fuck for not having to read 90+ pages of bullshit)

Also

VOTE: Momo

The player has attacked -most- of his group, as well as tried to paint themselves in a positive light in the same vein. So, gonna have to go with my gut and vote Momo in group B.

alright mr. i am super inactive so that people have no reason to read me

Why do I attack my group you ask...here's the thing, I don't care what group they are in. If I was scum, my initial read would not have been to go negative against my own group. If somebody acts scummy you call them out on it. I knew very quickly that B would be the lynch. [So besides Mikan because of our fight] the majority of my attention was on group b. And before you start coming at me, ask yourself if you have time for this game. Don't just try and lynch me because you get the "feeling" that it will work after you have skimmed the posts. Play the game and stop making ridiculous accusations. If I am scum, call me out on something legit. Not scumreading scummy players.

Eddie, you have seven posts.

Two of them are the same thing, just voting for group C and not giving any specifics [while not even using the voting format properly]

Another one is calling this came BS while voting me based on your "gut" not actually scumhunting at the point where we are 1450+ votes in. Use your gut early game, gut is always important but using it alone this late in the game is just an excuse for scum pretending to be town while not wanting to attack anyone that could also be scum (BTW, I think eddie is a traitor based on this logic)

Another post is a 1 liner which consists of you calling a major lynch possibility "meh"

A fifth is another one liner calling out a tunnel that has been mention IN GIANT LETTERS before in the game

A sixth one is just you complaining about a baby (why do we care about your family life)?

And that brings us to your first post. Strategically posted early game so that it doesn't help the town THAT much while keeping the questions basic enough that anyone could have asked them

everyone:

based on this Eddie is a traitor, he doesn't want to slip and appear scum but he also does not want to actually attack someone scummy because they might actually be scum and that would be going against his wincon.

VOTE: Momo

Is that a problem?

Yes, him coming up and acting like there's nothing to answer to.

I'm not sure what you're talking about here. You asked if anyone had a case on Mick, and I said that I didn't. What's the issue?

I don't like a lot of Mikan's play in this game, as I think it's outside the norm of what I expect to be coming out of town Alisae. But I can also understand her getting upset, and I don't think the replace out means anything. In fact, I'd be more upset if she did that strategically. If she's town, there needs to be a talk after the game about her toxic behavior, because it needs to be quelled before it grows worse. Other than that, I'm giving any replace-in a fresh start. My read there is muddled enough as it is.

@Checkers: Get off of LUV! You've said you agree with Elli that he's town, which means your vote is doing jack all. I don't like that you're coasting on a wagon that you've outright said is not on scum. Especially when that wagon is a leading wagon.

[Bulbazak]

I'm just not getting the gut townread. And I know that gutreads have a basis in something at least tangentially solid, so I know that if you try hard enough you can explain it to me. And given that I haven't seen anything really AI one way or another from Thor especially, I need you to be more specific. I need to know if this is real and not just you blowing smoke.

[Bulbazak]

Alright, you guys can vote me. Here is what you need to know. I care little about mechanics analysis or stuff like that. If something pings me as scummy, I will say it. Not everyone is scum but if anyone has any other scummy posts later in the game, I already have a base. Even if they are not scum, I will present everything I see/read or think about into the discussion. After all, it is just another view point that creates discussion. Discussion leads to more information and that is good for town.

Eddie:

My two posts on you were from the mouth of a jerk and for that, just saying I am sorry, You can keep your vote on me,

but I was being a jerk to test you and I hope you don't take any of it to heart. (Of course you have a real life and your baby SHOULD come before internet mafia.) However, your reaction has you town for me [for now].

And now he's backtracking..."Heh. Don't get mad at me! I was just reaction testing!". I don't buy this crap for a minute.

I'd really love to see those people unwilling to vote LUV to go into his ISO and make a towncase.

How about no? Hey, here's a better one. Explain to me how any of this is indicative of LUV-scum. What's his motivation here? Because you're essentially kneejerking at something and then not explaining how or why scum LUV makes that play or those posts.

What do you like about it, Thor?

I like that both took strong stances, and were aggressive without going into full bore derptard wail or other lynch antics.
Made it feel like both of you thought you were 100% right but willing to at least hear the other sides' story before making a call.

I think you need to take a closer look at Momo's side again. Because he wasn't saying or doing what you think he was.

Also, Bulb if anything, how the hell you gonna sheep the vote on Momo, and NOT trust my gut read on Majiffy and Thor!? You know I trust my gut like crazy....

Because Momo essentially spent 2 posts attacking non-alignment indicative posting as a means to deflect your push and discredit your vote. He was essentially saying to everyone who was starting to look his way "Why do you think I'm so scummy? Have you seen this guy? What about him?" while never actually addressing any of the concerns. If it was maybe a shorter post or a few lines that essentially said "Really? You're one to talk?", that'd be one thing, but the dude spent 2 large posts just lambasting you because you placed a vote on him, and then he never actually addressed the reason you voted him (which others were suspecting him of btw, and which I didn't see as that big a deal). As you said, it was incredibly fake and was definitely him putting on a show. And now that his wagon is picking up, partly because both of us called him out on his crap, he's all like "But it was just a reaction test! Get it! You're town now.", because he knows that might placate those on his wagon.

So no, I'm not just sheeping you there and trusting your read. And the whole point of pushing you on that was to get some basis and figure out if this is a for real read or a you blowing smoke up Majiffy's and Thor's butt read so that they won't scumread you.

>when transcend votes majiffy

- lol u suck
- lol u nub
- vote cmm or luv the obvtowns

> when chess votes majiffy

- hey that's a great idea
- let's all flock there
- all these other wagons suck!

And what does that tell you?

It tells me that I really want a Momo flip, because if he flips goon, that'll break the game.

[Bulbazak]

You should have that looked at. Because your scumhunting's suffering.

[Bulbazak]

@Mod: VC please

[Bulbazak]

I think I want an update from Elli in general.

[Bulbazak]

Yeah, that is kinda funny.

[Bulbazak]

@Elli: I just want a status update of Group B for you. I'm going to try to work on nailing feet down to the floor.

[Bulbazak]

Well, I'd like some help with Momo, because I think that will shore some things up for me. And if you don't agree with Momo, I'd like reasons why.

[Bulbazak]

@Transcend: I looked at that game, and I still think Momo is scum here. I don't buy the "lol reaction test" bit.

@Elli: Rach is town.

[Bulbazak]

If my read on Momo was just based on him pointing fingers everywhere, I'd say you may have a point, and he's probably lynchbait. But he pulled a panic move on Eddie and got caught with his pants down, mainly because Eddie is not one to back down and put his tail between his legs.

P-edit: Yeah, I think that replace out should be null.

[Bulbazak]

Momo in this game is

-You think I'm scum? WELL WHY DON'T YOU LOOK IN THE MIRROR! YOU HAVE NO ROOM TO TALK!

*Gets torn a new one*

-Well, that was just a reaction test. Congratulations! You passed! (Don't lynch me please...)

[Bulbazak]

we are only lynching in group b today if theres a guilty in that grou

thank you for your understanding of simple logic

And READING THE FUCKING SCUM WINCON

Okay. I actually missed that, but I was already on board with the not going into B again plan. I don't want to give the traitor the possibility of handing out false guilties. We need to keep that group on ice for awhile and come back to it later with actual results.

If we do go after C, I'm voting Checkers. If we're going back to B, I'm voting Momo because that has scum written all over it.

You're going to shut up and vote where I tell you to vote. Now put your dick back in your pants and vote C with me. Then, when we vote C, you will leave Checkers freaking alone and pray to God that scum decide to sort him for us during the night. If I tell you to sheep me, you freaking sheep me. Understand? I know what my PoE is telling me is likely, but there's also some red flags being thrown from Creature that's making me very nervous, and I want to talk about some C reads.

but i think it's town suck

There are Desp and Ginn and town!Eddie thinks checkers is the best lynch from Group C?

See, this makes me incredibly nervous. Mr. "I can't even make up my mind when it's a 1v1 with me involved" Creature somehow has locked down reads on Desp and Gin and is yelling game solved? I don't think so. There's something seriously wrong with this picture, and it makes me think that one or both of Desp or Gin are designated mislynches. However, looking at my own PoE, I'm not sure where that puts the scum.

Thor, who's scum in your group?

Because for me, by PoE it's you and Majiffy.

Again, locked down reads from a player that's never been able to make up his mind as town. Ever.

Btw, did anyone realise EddieFenix managed to make a wallpost with zero reads?

Eddie did give two reads: Checkers and Momo scumreads.
This is blatantly misrepping that post.

Watch out, there are Micks in the other two groups.

Assemble in Group A, vonflare in Group C.

I townread both of them though.

This reads a lot like WKing to me.

Maybe if we end doing Group A I'd lynch one of {Bulbazak, EddieFenix} first.

Also the other benefit of lynching in A is that creature gets shot.

Unlikely, given that he's scum.

VOTE: Group C

I'd like Elli to confer with me about this group when he gets back.

[Bulbazak]

And you're still bad.

[Bulbazak]

There are none. They think that less people will make it easier to lynch scum. However, mislynching also puts scum closer to their wincon of killing all the town in a group, and if we don't kill the traitor, they'll just be able to start reversing results, meaning we have to consider if any guilties are actually innocents.

[Bulbazak]

Also, I'll be cross-referencing today's B wagon with yesterday's Mick wagon. Just fyi.

[Bulbazak]

Also, Bulb, when we get back to group B, sheep me on Momo. You and I both know it needs lynched by fire anyway.

Yeah, we actually both agree with that one.

See, this makes me incredibly nervous. Mr. "I can't even make up my mind when it's a 1v1 with me involved" Creature somehow has locked down reads on Desp and Gin and is yelling game solved? I don't think so. There's something seriously wrong with this picture, and it makes me think that one or both of Desp or Gin are designated mislynches. However, looking at my own PoE, I'm not sure where that puts the scum.

So I am scum setting a mislynch on one of them?

I'm not sure whether you're a goon or traitor, and there's the whole not knowing thing from scum this game, which means I can't point and say "100% designated mislynch", but the fact that you're pushing both players as a sure thing and that they're locked for everyone in this game makes me iffy on those reads and makes me want to reevaluate.

Again, locked down reads from a player that's never been able to make up his mind as town. Ever.

That's false. I'm lazy to find examples, but I had deja-vu moments quite a lot.

Really? In Night and Day, you were literally in a 1v1 with scum, where there was no possibility for scum to be anyone else from your point of view, yet you drug your feet going "I don't know. I'm not sure guys...". Literally. A 1v1 against scum where you were town. And you couldn't make up your mind to lynch him. I've never seen you this confident in anything when you're town. And all this game, I haven't been able to shake the feeling that something was wrong with you. That you didn't believe what you were saying. That I was watching a show from you, because you realized people townread you when you're active. And now you're super confident in reads, when I've never seen you be so before as town? Heck no!

[Bulbazak]

So why is Assemble not scum?

[Bulbazak]

Unless you have something useful to add, you can just shut up, tyvm. Creature feels wrong on a fundamental level, and his reads are what's popular in the 2 groups that are not him and protecting possible lynch bait. I'm not convinced of anything related to his towniness.

[Bulbazak]

So why is Assemble not scum?

[Bulbazak]

And since you and Transcend are such huge proponents of B, how about you actually answer Rach's question:

Could someone explain to me the benefit you are all seeing in going after group B again?

[Bulbazak]

Strike that, Transcend is on C. Ball is still in your court Creature.

[Bulbazak]

Scared Ginngie?

[Bulbazak]

Okay, so you want to pressure A. Who do you think is likely scum there, and why isn't your vote down?

[Bulbazak]

@Creature: I'm pushing C, and I've explained why I think B is a bad play at this point in time. Why not vote with me there then?

And making reads based on activity is bad, especially when that is a really easy trait to change.

[Bulbazak]

I think most of the players have posted by this point. But in the meantime, you can start by getting off of B.

P-edit: Well, if that's true, you're squarely in the PoE sights.

[Bulbazak]

@Transcend: Reads for each group. Go!

After you're done there, we'll break it down.

[Bulbazak]

Pedit: a you and why
B maj and Thor
C 2/3 von desp ram

Okay, reasons why Why and I are scum. Why are you townreading Eddie? Heck, why are you townreading Assemble?
B is a mess in general. I want you to walk me through each and every read there.
Why are you scumreading those three? Why are you townreading Ginngie?

Let's talk.

[Bulbazak]

I want an explanation of these Thor and Majiffy reads. Everyone seems to be scumreading them, and I haven't the foggiest why. They're still kinda nullish for me.

P-edit: If it's any consolation, I really don't have a townread of Ginngie right now. Although, she's still benefiting from that d1 buy. I want to solidify some reads before I go chasing down that rabbit hole.

[Bulbazak]

Can you explain Majiffy in more detail? Thor I kinda get, but I need something more than just "scummy".

[Bulbazak]

Also, the sudden strong push onto Majiffy after Momo started getting hardpushed wigged me out.

[Bulbazak]

Focusing on LUV you mean? I meant to respond to his response to me from d1, but decided against it.

[Bulbazak]

I'm thinking there are two vastly different definitions here.

[Bulbazak]

@Checkers: B is a great big tub of blah for me right now. I just want investigatives to sort it out a bit before diving back in.

[Bulbazak]

C is looking good from my perspective as far as PoE goes, though.

[Bulbazak]

You mean for all that WK bull crap?

Eddie will do what I tell him to do. Let's do C today, and then tomorrow when we come around to A, we'll talk Eddie.

[Bulbazak]

There's also the asking everyone for reads at the beginning of d1. I'm not blind Checks. I'm just letting that read simmer a bit before I make a definitive placement.

[Bulbazak]

Why are we not lynching group B? It has highest concentration of scum no?

Scum wincon is to kill all the town in a group. B is closer with no PR and a whole lot of murkiness. Also, if we don't lynch the scum PR in that group, they get the ability to fake guilities and swap results. Ram keeps conveniently forgetting the first part, i.e. if a gunsmith targets a player that particular PR also targetted, they'd end up with a false guilty. It reverses results on a player, not just tracker/watcher results, but gunsmith results too. So lynching in B puts town closer to losing and potentially gives scum the ability to plant fake guilties.

yeah no creature where the hell are you getting the active as scum part

Hint: He's WKing Assmeble.

I have a question. If we lynch in B and myslynch do we lose? It's 3tv2s rn so would be 1tv2s in that case but town still have a living member, correct? (as in, the last town won't be 'endgamed')?

It's very likely we'd lose if we mislynch in B.

[Bulbazak]

It's easier to abbreviate a common term rather than type it out every time.

[Bulbazak]

Don't make me put my F up your A.

[Bulbazak]

But seriously though, I can live with wherever a NK goes in C. I think a NK in A is bad times.

[Bulbazak]

Vote C then.

[Bulbazak]

Says the guy using activity as a means to judge alignment.

[Bulbazak]

In A, Elli dies at night, almost guaranteed. In C, who are they going to lynch? You? Transcend? Someone else? The NK in C actually helps us sort the group out, or get rid of contention. And if it hits you, I'd much rather have that over someone like Elli. As the game goes on, I value her PoE over your mechanics hunting. Maybe by tomorrow, when we need to get to A, we might actually have something worthwhile to mitigate the loss, but right now, I don't think that a venture in A will turn out like you think it will.

Plus, going into C, we have enough people to keep the chuckleheads in line and stop them from doing something stupid. Going into A, it's just you, and I don't think you have the power in that situation to stop stupidity like you think you do.

[Bulbazak]

*who are they going to NK

I need to stop getting interrupted when writing these posts.

[Bulbazak]

In A, Elli dies at night, almost guaranteed.

there's a watcher bro

also how fuck dare you, my "mechanics hunting" is teaching idiots how the setup works and unrelated to scumhunting

1.) Elli's still dead.

2.) Mechanics talk becomes less and less useful as the game goes on, and PoE becomes more powerful. If people still don't understand how the setup works going into tomorrow, you likely couldn't teach them differently anyway.

[Bulbazak]

And if scum RS Elli, that also might stop a kill, so win.

P-edit: My not liking you goes without saying. But I also think Elli is more likely to reevaluate and end up being right over you.

[Bulbazak]

Checkers, if you go into A right now, I don't think you'll get the lynch you think you will. You can't herd that many cats.

[Bulbazak]

4 people voted A in the last 2 pages because they see Totoscum

Let's hope so, but my read on that was different. I'm not moving my vote, but I won't stand in the way of A if that is the way they really want to go.

[Bulbazak]

I was talking about my read of the room, Checks. Toto's in my PoE pile.

[Bulbazak]

I remember leaning town at one point on Why, but I haven't really felt confident in that. The Toto lynch is one that needs to happen, especially if an Assemble lynch is not happening.

[Bulbazak]

He'd also be sticking to the shadows a lot more as scum. He was big and loud on LUV.

[Bulbazak]

Replace outs are never alignment indicative. Seriously, Creature. So much stretching.

[Bulbazak]

This is on top of his "Assemble's activity is ai" when it's not, and his meta read of Thor, which he hasn't backed up.

[Bulbazak]

Transcend, you're one unstable doggo. I'm still waiting on those read explanations you promised me.

[Bulbazak]

Transcend and Toto is an entertaining fight where I'd be shouting "Fight! Fight! Fight!"

[Bulbazak]

If you town read him, it doesn’t matter how he got 3

Yeah, it does actually. It helps us understand his thought process, which may allow us to see his point of view or even agree with it. It also helps justify whether that townread is warranted or not.

yeah no creature where the hell are you getting the active as scum part

If you link to the real post there's context prior.

Creature plz respond to this ty.

Nom Assemblerotws for "Lurking as town"

This isn't a random nom. it actully is very significant. Assemble is known for lurking more as town than he does as scum. It is part of his game play. It makes it harder for people to predict his alignment, and makes him more unique than other players. Lurking is his downfall a lot of times, but when the player list has played with him, they tend to know this is normal. He actually is a really good scum. He makes good posts (sometimes) when he does make posts. I think that if there was a title for him based off his game style, this would be it!

All that tells me is that Assemble was nominated for lurking

more

as town than as scum. It never said that he didn't lurk as scum, just that he lurked just a tiny bit less. Regardless, this title nom was swiftly rejected, and I don't think this is enough to tell us anything about Assemble's actual habits as scum or town.

I think you're goon didn't read the setup wanted to push back hard then realized I'm a bad push for scum to make so changed your read and didn't want to reopen the can by calling me on the fishing, because that woudknt go with the new appeasement strategy.

But if he's a goon, wouldn't he just look at the PT first before jumping in here? I'm pretty sure that secret agents would be mentioned somewhere in there.

Okay, it's been 20 pages...whelp..

Anyways, Eddie, you might come after me but you will be lynching town and guaranteeing disaster. I stand by voting B but I urge you to only lynch me if you are absolutely sure as lynching B!Town would be terrible

Just a reminder that this is still scum and should be a priority whenever we come back around to B.

Anyone scumreads LUV here?

No.

K

VOTE: b

Think we already hammered C, and actually checkers is right that going B now is a bad tactical play.

That's not what he said. He said it's essentially a scum claim, and I agree.

Idk the supposed 'expert' BT is completely untrustable after Xyzzy

You know, I'm getting sick and tired of you disparaging me over a read I HAVEN'T EVEN GIVEN YET! I have never, at any point in this game, said I have a townread on Eddie. I've said I'm letting it simmer, aka I'm not satisfied with where my read on him is at. But since you can't seem to shut your whore mouth for just ten seconds, I might as well tell you where I'm at, since you couldn't take the time out of your self-appointed harassment campaign to actually properly play the game and actually ask what my read is and why I'm where I am with it (And don't go on about you being able to read Eddie, because all you did in TBD was buddy up to the most active player and follow down a list of 3 names that didn't contradict what he was saying. Congrats! You got lucky on the last name, dear Survivor. It just goes to show that if you don't stop to reevaluate reads and just go blindly down the list, you can have a 33% chance of hitting scum. And you wonder why I think more highly of Elli, who was nominated for Paragon, over you, who is finding himself on more and more players' blacklists because he is extremely toxic in and out of games. ).

I've not been comfortable with Eddie this game. I didn't really care for his first post asking everyone what they thought, especially since he really didn't follow up on any of it. I still don't like that easy townread of Majiffy and Thor. Giving hard townreads like that so early in the game was definitely something that needed to be explained. However, the idgaf attitude that he expressed going into that with me actually made me think that he could just genuinely have a gut read. Still not happy about it, though. His Momo read, though, and the reasoning for it, is such a shining beacon of town for me, because I saw him reach the same conclusions as I did before and independently of me. I know that he wasn't just copying me on that. That was a genuine read, and that was a genuine push from him. Now that could still be SvS, as I believe Eddie would still push that if Momo was independently scum from him, much like he pushed against off-reads he had in TBD. But I think that has a higher chance of coming from him as town than scum. His whining about the activity and how busy he is etc. is pretty null, although you're right that it's now reaching the point of oversaturation. And his comment of "I see what you're doing" has been gnawing at me. There really wasn't anything to see there, as I just told him to unvote B and vote C, stop picking pointless fights with you, and to sheep me if I was confident enough to ask him to. That wasn't a "I have a plan, Eddie." as much as it was "Shut up and stop being stupid, Eddie.". There's a paranoid part of my brain that thinks Eddie may be scum who thought I was scum recognizing he was scum and telling him so and to stay in line.

So I'm stuck between the Momo push d1 signalling town, and the paranoid "I see what you're doing" part of me thinking that's scum, and I need time to mull it over and time to get some more hands on time with him. This was why I told Elli to ask me about Eddie again on d3, because I figured I'd have a solid enough read by then, and that I could unpack all the junk and possible paranoia that followed over after he played me in TBD. I want to PoE my group out some more to get a clearer picture, because I'm almost there. And most of all, I need you to keep from running your mouth about things that you know nothing about. If you want to talk specifics about reads and hash things out, that's fine, but throwing insults just because you can is growing irksome, and I'm down to my last nerve.

@Eddie: Checks was right in that you just posted nothing but noise and zero content. I'd be expecting you to be more productive by this point, baby or no, and to be posting at least SOME content or engaging in reads. You're doing zero of that. And I know you had the time last night, because I gave you the space after I finished with the stream to do what you were doing. Partly because I needed to unwind before I went to bed, and also because I heard you tip tapping away and figured you needed the silence to concentrate, and it was best I removed myself from the equation. You produced less than what I know you're capable of, and I'm not happy.

[Bulbazak]

Oh, I forgot to mention I have a townread on Creature now. Discuss.

[Bulbazak]

Bulb= zak = zaklstrasa?

I don't even know what you're saying there.

[Bulbazak]

Also, Paragon is a body of work award, so 1 game where you rolled scum wouldn't matter.

[Bulbazak]

Got something new to add luv?

[Bulbazak]

Bulba our group sould already be at like 2/3 for you ya?

Yes. Now that Creature is firmly town, I'm down to {Toto, Asscend, Eddie}. I want to see what the replacement brings to the table, and I want another full phase with Eddie to parse that out. I'll be ready to go d3.

My list in C is narrowing down as well. I had Vonflare as likely to be town via PoE at some point, but I'm no longer there. I still think he's less likely than some of my other reads in C to be scum.

yo desp why is bulba the scummiest person in A

Thank you for reminding me. There was a lot to unpack, and I knew I forgot some of the things I wanted to touch on.

@Desp: Why do you have Eddie as town?

[Bulbazak]

what are ur C reads bulb

Rach is town. Transcend is town who I roll my eyes at a lot and still needs to explain those reads I asked for.

*cough* *cough*

I have you as town until I get a Momo flip, at which point I reevaluate. The read's unlikely to change, though, due to my missing the scum wincon and you being on top of that. I doubt you shine that big a light on the different wincon as scum. That leaves {Vonflare, Ginngie, Desperado, Ramicus}. Ginngie is giving me some town feels, but I haven't seen enough to solidify that. I have a scumread on Ramicus.

I plan on doing some analysis once we're out of this first phase, and I think that should net me a few scum. My heart of hearts is telling me that we're likely looking at Desp/Ram in C.

Bulba I honestly feel slightly worried that I think we're on almost the entirely same page. -.-

Why's that?

P-edit: Except Elli has actually drawn conclusions. So how is that theatre if something is actually coming from it?

[Bulbazak]

There were a few things from Alisae that didn't sit right with me and that I've never seen from her as town or as her normal self. And I haven't liked Ram's approach so far. I'll be taking a closer look at some point, but I haven't been seeing that slot as town for awhile.

[Bulbazak]

I mean, if Alisae is town, then this needs to happen after the game:

[Bulbazak]

I don't think that replace out is alignment indicative. I think that as town or scum, Alisae was genuinely frustrated. I would have a whole other level of disappointed if she replaced out for tactical reasons.

[Bulbazak]

@Ginngie: How much of that aggressive Chess-like garbage that she spewed matches what she's said to you?

[Bulbazak]

@Ginngie: Alisae was starting to use an abrasive technique that I think she picked up from watching other players. She was using it to completely discredit and disregard other players or lines of questioning in this game. I've personally never seen that come from town Alisae before, and her thought process didn't make sense to me given what I know about her. I also felt that her rant was a little too extreme and laced with the same aggressiveness that I had noted as off and uncharacteristic. You saw something off there as well, because you were pushing her on those inconsistencies. Is that consistent with her townplay? Is that level of aggressiveness and bitterness that she displayed prior to replacing out line up with what you've seen when you've personally talked to her?

[Bulbazak]

Oh, I forgot to mention I have a townread on Creature now. Discuss.

Firstly I ask, when did you reach this conclusion?

Thirdly, is Chess town to you? If so, how?

I've already explained this when I talked about my reads in C. I don't think he broadcasts the different scum wincon that loudly and stops the second B wagon if he's scum.

[Bulbazak]

@Chess: Are you saying that you'd shoot yourself in the foot as scum, even if you didn't have to, just so you didn't feel unclean?

[Bulbazak]

Welcome back, Ginngie. I've missed you.

[Bulbazak]

Also -sigh- Bulb, can I get the straight man answer on Creature instead of Zelda pics?

I saw a post from Creature when catching up today that screamed he was town. I just looked and BAM! Can't remember which one it was, and I don't care to go hunting for it. You can trust me or not. I really don't care. And I'm not going to make up a BS reason for why Creature is town, because we both know you'd see right through that.

[Bulbazak]

i kindly ask you do not judge my slot by Ali action as i can't defend against what he did/said or whatever else you find AI, thx for understanding

I'm not scum reading your slot just based of Ali. Just fyi.

Also -sigh- Bulb, can I get the straight man answer on Creature instead of Zelda pics?

I saw a post from Creature when catching up today that screamed he was town. I just looked and BAM! Can't remember which one it was, and I don't care to go hunting for it. You can trust me or not. I really don't care. And I'm not going to make up a BS reason for why Creature is town, because we both know you'd see right through that.

You could have given me this when I asked the first time instead of cheeky meme, monkey. -bops with newspaper-

I thought about just saying "Reasons." and walking away.

From my end though, Desp has had some posts that at least I point to and say "someone's speaking the truth".

Complaining about spam, the speed of the game, or the length of the thread is contentless posting and is not alignment indicative whatsoever. This is basic freaking stuff, Eddie.

[Bulbazak]

i kindly ask you do not judge my slot by Ali action as i can't defend against what he did/said or whatever else you find AI, thx for understanding

I'm not scum reading your slot just based of Ali. Just fyi.

i didn't said you scumread for Ali deeds, i asked don't judge my slot, which was going for few pages. If someone want Discuss something about my slot, they can come directly to me, discussing Ali actions is pointless endeavour, he's not here to explain and i can't talk for him

Same slot. Replacing into the slot doesn't make all the old stuff magically disappear. Sorry to burst your bubble, scumicus.

P-edit: Except Elli has actually drawn conclusions. So how is that theatre if something is actually coming from it?

It was Bulb. sorry.

You still haven't answered that question, btw.

From my end though, Desp has had some posts that at least I point to and say "someone's speaking the truth".

Complaining about spam, the speed of the game, or the length of the thread is contentless posting and is not alignment indicative whatsoever. This is basic freaking stuff, Eddie.

-whacks with newspaper again- I never said those posts were alignment indicative, just said that there's truth to them. I want the

ROOT

reason of why the scum!Desp read is out there because something just doesn't sit right with me.

Desp would actually be trying to parse some of this stuff if town. Especially the further in we got. But Desp is just lurking in the shadows and pops out to complain about the game every now and then.

Also, the sudden strong push onto Majiffy after Momo started getting hardpushed wigged me out.

I have a hunch can you drudge up some quotes and tell me who started that up?

Then compare that to the CMM push when it became obvious it was between CMM and LUV.

Venn diagram that shit and you got scumbo(s)

Checkers was the one that jumped on your wagon as soon as I stated a Momo scumread. Eddie and Rach had just given their support as well, and I remember there were other Momo scumreads earlier in the day. So Momo starts to get some momentum, Checks votes your wagon, which had maybe 2 at most and was essentially an eyeroll vanity wagon beforehand, and all of a sudden there are counterwagons. Beforehand he was on LUV, who he was angry with but agreed was town, so that was not even a serious wagon for him, yet he sat on it for an uncomfortable amount of time. I made a note of the behavior and vote switch, and I thought that if Momo flipped goon, Checks was likely his partner.

I'll look at your wagon compared to Mick's later.

On to 109 after food and work stuff. Heck, I might read a book and forget you guys exist.

[Bulbazak]

Some players have reads too different from others.

And that means...what exactly?

Majiffy, i almost have more posts than you and i replaced in, so if that's your only "scumtell" on me, i pitty you, really

What the heck even is this discredit? "I have more posts than you, so nobody should listen to a thing you say about me." Seriously?

bulb - strong townreads elsewhere in the group and past experience

I gave you a lot of leeway in our last two games together, because I knew it had been awhile, and I wanted to see if you were still able to read me 100% like you used to. In 17 Kilos of Cocaine you acted paranoid about me and never really settled on a hard townread. Then in TBD, you shot me based off of a fake guilty from Dreal, which you would have know was bupcus if you were capable of reading me at the level you used to be. So from my perspective, you've forfeited any right to use past experience as a metric to justify a read. Try harder and give actual reasons for why you think I'm scum.

[Bulbazak]

Bulb is giving me the heebie jeebies.

And this means...what exactly?

So how is that theatre if something is actually coming from it?

You mean this question? I'm sorry I don't understand what your point is here.

Why does having conclusions makes it less likely to come from scum?

My point was that he is spending a lot of time on doing "analysis" on assembler's meta, and more importantly, was doing a bit of a show on how he was doing such an analysis (why does he need to tell us so much all the things that we don't care about the analysis). Of course the analysis would be presented with their conclusions. That doesn't make it less fake.


It's actually very similar to your wagon analysis on checker tbh. It's a big pile of crap given momo or maj have not flipped yet.

So because you don't understand or get why someone would find a particular mode of analysis useful means it's fake? Especially when he shows that he can get reads from it? Same thing with wagon analysis. Lack of flips doesn't make that sort of analysis any less useful. Less accurate maybe, but it just depends on what sort of wagons you're looking at and why. If I have a particularly strong scumread on Momo, and I see Checker jumping to create a counterwagon when the wagon I'm pushing gains momentum, should I not look at that association and say "If X then Y." or in this case "If Momo flips goon, then Checkers is very likely goon."? You seem very intent on discrediting and attacking any different forms of analysis that you either a.) don't understand or b.) think may produce results different than randomly guessing or relying on feelings.

Checkers was the one that jumped on your wagon as soon as I stated a Momo scumread. Eddie and Rach had just given their support as well, and I remember there were other Momo scumreads earlier in the day. So Momo starts to get some momentum, Checks votes your wagon, which had maybe 2 at most and was essentially an eyeroll vanity wagon beforehand, and all of a sudden there are counterwagons. Beforehand he was on LUV, who he was angry with but agreed was town, so that was not even a serious wagon for him, yet he sat on it for an uncomfortable amount of time. I made a note of the behavior and vote switch, and I thought that if Momo flipped goon, Checks was likely his partner.

Bulbs, you've lost your townread. Earn it back by answering the following line of questioning properly:
Earlier, you mentioned that Elli was a bigger loss than me because he's more logical/better at catching scums and there's "too many cats for me to herd" something like that idc about the exact quote

Now you are posting these theories.

Are you trying to actively undermine my ability to herd cats, share a paranoia theory, or unspecific third option? Choose carefully, since Toto is starting to look more town and there's an opening for a scumread in A!

I mentioned earlier that your Majiffy push opposite Momo yesterday made me vary wary of the Majiffy wagon. You didn't push further into what those reasons were. Majiffy did. I just gave my full thought process on why that was, especially since he brought up who started that heavy push on him. The Momo association is still in the back of my mind, but it's also now counterbalanced by how hard you pushed the scum's wincon as being different. Suffice to say, I'm not interested in your lynch, but I'm not going to sugar coat my thought process from different points in the game, especially if asked about it.

@Majiffy: You said that wagon analysis was crap in reference to my mention of comparing the Mick wagon with the second B wagon, yet you later wanted me to compare your wagon with the Mick wagon to find scum. Why is one wagon analysis garbage while the other isn't?

[Bulbazak]

ConManMick (8): Toto, Transcend, Assemblerotws, Ginngie, Elliberetta, InactionDan, Ramcius, checkersman7 [

Lynch!

]

Those on the B wagon at any point d2: Transcend, Ramicus, Desperado, Creature, Momo, Eddie Fenix, Toto

Those on both wagons: {Transcend, Ramicus, Toto}

I'm willing to give Transcend some leeway, because it really did look like he had no idea about the alternate scum wincon, and he got off the B wagon really quickly. Ramicus, however, does not get this. He held firm until it became uncomfortable for him to do so during his interaction with Checkers on the subject. This is especially egregious, given that Ramicus was in the first Surreptitious game, and the scum wincons were the exact same there.

So if we leave Transcend off, that leaves us with: {Ramicus, Toto}

Going to do that one bit of analysis for Majiffy next and then run comparisons.

[Bulbazak]

So because you don't understand or get why someone would find a particular mode of analysis useful means it's fake?

1) Wolfs are more likely to

show

how they are trying to solve the game. Because their objective is to

look

like they are scumhunting, rather than actually scumhunting.
2) Objective types of analysis (VCA, NKA, meta, game theory) are MUCH easier to fake effectively because they are.... objective. Doing this requires no lying or personal skills.
3) While these types of analysis are effective as town it is a HUGE red flag when this is the only thing someone is doing because they are avoiding doing the hard stuff to do by scum. Showing town emotions (paranoia, frustration, etc) in a way that looks natural is MUCH harder than spending three pages talking about game theory, or talking about wagon conspiracy theories.

[Bulbazak]

@Elli: I do think that there were some scum that voted Mick yesterday and then tried to push B today. I was interested in where the overlap was.

[Bulbazak]

I was surprised Desp wasn't on there, so I went back to look at the VC, and Desp was still sitting on LUV.

[Bulbazak]

So comparing the Majiffy wagon at its height to the Mick wagon. Surprisingly, Majiffy's wagon really didn't get very big, although there was momentum and demand for it for a bit. And if you go back to the VC, you'll see that Momo and Majiffy were, in fact, counterwagons to each other. Whether TvT, TvS, or SvS remains to be seen.

Majiffy (3): Transcend, checkersman7, Creature [L-5]

ConManMick (8): Toto, Transcend, Assemblerotws, Ginngie, Elliberetta, InactionDan, Ramcius, checkersman7 [

Lynch!

]

Names in common: {Transcend, Checkersman7}

All things considered, I'm really not sure this is telling of anything in the long run, since the Majiffy wagon didn't get too big. However, I promised to do it, so here it is.

[Bulbazak]

@Elli: Our most recent games were the ones I listed: 17 Kilos and TBD2. If you want to look at our very first game together, where I was scum and he was town, look at my sig. I can go back and find the last game we played together prior to Desp's break.

[Bulbazak]

@Elli: Our most recent games were the ones I listed: 17 Kilos and TBD2. If you want to look at our very first game together, where I was scum and he was town, look at my sig. I can go back and find the last game we played together prior to Desp's break.

i mean im guessing he's discussing youscum vs. himtown yeah?

unless your town game's been different than the those two you just mentioned

you think its been?

I just had to look back over my wiki and bookmarked (unposted) games. My last game with him prior to TBD was Playing Card Mafia, where I was scum and he was town. That was back in April 2014, so roughly 3 years ago. My game has gone through a bit of a shift since then, especially my town game. My posting habits are different. My approach to the game is different. And on and on. So when he's trying to justify a scumread based on games played over 3 years ago and nothing else, and especially when he's recently proved that he can't read me given my current playstyle, you can see why I'm calling BS.

[Bulbazak]

Okay, stepping back to the comparisons, because I said I'd do it. If we compare the lists from the 2 analyses, there are no names in common. Unless, that is, we consider the unfiltered versions. In that case, we are left with only Transcend. However, I'm not ready to go down that rabbit hole, as I think he's actually town here.

That being said, I'd like to lynch either Ramicus or Desperado. Ramicus, because of my scumread of the slot and that his actions have fallen in line with what I predicted scum might do in this situation. Desp, because I don't believe town Desp would actually push that bull crap angle, especially after having not played with me in over 3 years and then having failed to accurately read me in the 2 games we recently had together. Even from that, he would have seen that my approach is different, and that should have caused him to approach me differently in this game. That's not what's happening, and he's trying to soft push as scumread on me without really putting forth the effort in cobbling together any sort of reasoning.

[Bulbazak]

@Elli: I want your thoughts after you go through those games.

[Bulbazak]

I'm going to watch videos, think, and then come back with my vote.

[Bulbazak]

wanna replace think with drink or do you have work tmrw

I work 3-11 tomorrow. I'm actually going to bed soon, so probably not going to post anything else until I get back to this game at some point during the shift.

VOTE: Ramicus

I've thought about it, and I want this more.

[Bulbazak]

Bulba noooo.
They're so town dude.

This better have nothing to do with the replace out. If it doesn't, then walk me through it. You're the queen of meta, so I know you're capable.

i suggest you to look at first game before make such conclusions - setup was different, but i like how hard you holding onto me, i admire your passion

I did, actually, because I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt. The first game had the exact same scum wincons.

If we compare the lists from the 2 analyses, there are no names in common. Unless, that is, we consider the unfiltered versions. In that case, we are left with only Transcend. However, I'm not ready to go down that rabbit hole, as I think he's actually town here.

Hey guys, here are these sets of random observations I'm going to post and then ignore and just vote strategically.

Except when comparing the Majiffy wagon vs. the Mick wagon, I specifically said that I didn't think the information was very telling. I only did so because Majiffy asked me to, and I only did a comparison between the two different analyses because I wanted to be thorough, even though, and I stress again, I didn't agree or think that the Majiffy wagon analysis was telling. The only analysis that I put stock into was comparing the Mick wagon with those that voted Group B during this day phase. And even that is probably not strong, as it does not include scum who were hiding on other wagons d1 and voted B and scum who were in B and supported Mick, but their absence from the VC meant that they didn't appear on the overlap. Desperado fits in the first category, because he sat on the useless LUV wagon and just coasted, and Momo fits in the second, because if I recall, he supported the Mick wagon, but was unable to vote.

Only 3 names appeared on the overlap: Transcend, Toto, and Ramicus. I felt Transcend's interactions around the B wagon felt town, and so I focused on just Toto and Ramicus. And I'm voting Ramicus, so I don't understand your point here.

Also a lot of people ITT can't read we are wagoning Ginngie not Ramcius or Desperado

Ginngie's town.

@Mod

sorry, replace me, i just don't feel like i can deal with these people without going overboard

And then people will say we can't lynch the slot because of the replace out...

Elli I doubt would seriously vote me

VOTE: Gin

You got some 'splainin to do.

your only pushe s have been on town

This is bad, especially considering your pushes on d1.

If I may:

Here's something that I think is not true which is basically an indirect push; namely,

Ginngie are just obvious town.

This is so bloody confusing and is a complete reversal of her ISO for no real reason that I can understand.



What also got me fucked up and I haven't had time to unravel is that in Night and Day, and in general, Alisae can't fight with me, she sucks at it and she knows and pushing her is something I always do. A lot of my pushing on her felt really valid and her criticisms didn't make much sense. So like I get scum vibes from it, but the thing that perplexes me is that she was still able to throw shit at me even if it made no damn sense.

The reason she quit the game is because she hates MS, she's been talking to me and invited me to MU because reasons so the replace out is hugely NAI and just her on burnout regarding this site.

We are not lynching alisae slot. Im sorry you cant see that simple fact. Scum dont rage quit like they did.

This can be so easily disproved that I'm going to hope and pray you actually tell me why you townread the slot by play before I force a powerlynch on you after we lynch Desp in C.

and after I quite literally explain that they hate playing mafia on this site and you spew the same bullshit is quite annoying.

When this is town af regardless of whatever other baggage of emotions Alisae carries relating to this site. Most of that post was game specific: this game, these players, and those reads.

To be fair that's really the only thing that's ever stuck out that I can remember. But that's a good example

And I've said that I think the replace out was NAI and that Alisae prior to that wasn't lining up with my experience of her as town or outside of games. Ginngie said she had talked with Alisae about MS before in site chat, so I asked if what we saw in this game lined up with previous conversations that Ginngie's had with her. I was given Ginngie room to clear the air in case I was fundamentally wrong about the character of Alisae. Instead, Ginngie actually agreed with my suspicions that Alisae's behavior did not match up with her town self. That was not Ginngie trying to sneak a push. That was her saying "You're right, Bulb, and I completely agree with you, and here's why.".

And if you want to talk about replace outs, go look at the pile of scum that is the Ramicus replace out and get back with me.

Will come back to 121 later. I think I'm about to have a huge rush.

[Bulbazak]

She reads like frustrated scum getting pushed for the wrong reasons. Her debating about how replaceouts are nai doesn't seem like game solving.

I can't tell if this is bad or scum, but frankly, I just don't care.

there's nothing i can do about other people's activity, and if it keeps happening and it keeps hindering my (and, presumably, other's) ability to form reads then i'm going to keep complaining about it

seriously, look at the pages that were produced overnight and tell me how much of that back and forth between checkers and ginngie did to further the game. it was all noise.

There's been a lot of information that has popped up in pages that you have just passed off as "noise" in this game, information that I've actually used to form reads. The problem is that you're just dismissing things as noise and then using that as an excuse to do nothing.

as for you being scum, its a very specific tell that hasn't failed yet and i don't think you're aware of it. tbd and kilos never got a point where it could be applied. you're scum and that's that.

A specific tell that is based off of my first scum game ever, is over 4 years old, and you haven't played with me in 3. And none of those most recent games are scum games. You showed in those games that you are incapable of reading me now, and if my town game has changed so much in those 3 years, do you really think my scum game looks the same?

Is it possibble your experience with Alisae doesnt line up with your previous one because:

1) they were playing a gimmick alt
2) they are frustrated about the site and therfore is reflected in the way they interact with ppl?

The alt had nothing to do with it. She was playing outside the gimmick near the end, and it was easier to read her based off of what I knew from playing with her and interacting with her outside of games. As for the second, that's why I was talking with Ginngie, since she said that she's talked with Alisae about the subject before. And even Ginngie believed Alisae was acting outside of the ordinary here.

Your vca assumes that you will find scum in the intersection of two random groups of people. Basically your analysis presumes the conclusions which is lolscience.

Do I expect scum to have pushed and voted for Mick, who was lynch bait? Yes. Do I expect scum to try to further their advantage by voting for B again in an effort to close the game, especially if town don't realize that's what the scum wincon is? Yes. So how is it unreasonable to expect that the overlap of the two would produce scum?

@Eddie:

I need you to place your vote on Ramicus. Or, if you'd prefer, you can vote Desp and try to get others to join you. Put plainly, you need to get your butt off of Checks and actually do something useful to counteract this horrible push on Ginngie.

[Bulbazak]

@Elli: Did you want recent scum samples from me. I can provide you the most recent scum game from a known alt, a hydra, and my main, although I'm not sure how much digging I'll have to do for that last one.

[Bulbazak]

You seem really intent on trying to completely discredit any analysis that's done this game, especially analysis that can finger you as scum. You agree that scum would be voting for Mick. If you just disagreed with my assumption that scum would revote for B, then you'd just say so, shrug, and move on, but you've done more than that. On the B point, we could always have agreed to disagree. But saying that the analysis is based on random variables, and not analyzing data and what is likely for scum to do based on the setup and past experience, is blatantly false.

[Bulbazak]

@Bubl: I don't think you understand what a random variable is.

Except what I'm looking at is very much not random. Scum will make decisions based off of their wincon. Saying "Well, you don't know how many on a specific wagon are scum!" doesn't mean that scum didn't vote that wagon and were influenced by their role PM. True, we don't have a lot of information to work off of, but that doesn't mean we take the information we do have and toss it out the window in favor of tarot readings.

1) Your assumptions are wrong,

How so? You seem to agree with me about scum being on the Mick wagon, but you're not doing anything with that.

2) your method is wrong,

Well, it's better than trusting crystal balls and the power of belief, as you would want us to do.

3) and

I think your conclusions are wrong.

(I'm town, and I'm very confident Ramcius is town).

Okay, cool. But I really don't care what you think now, do I, especially when I don't think you are likely to be town here, and of course you'd say that.

She reads like frustrated scum getting pushed for the wrong reasons. Her debating about how replaceouts are nai doesn't seem like game solving.

I can't tell if this is bad or scum, but frankly, I just don't care.

If you didn't care, you wouldn't have quoted me.

I've kinda watched you, and whether you're town or scum, the end result is the same. What I'm saying there is that I think that take is hot garbage, but I really don't expect better. I also expect that we're going to have to lynch you at some point soon, so it's not worth engaging you on an obviously flawed approach.

[Bulbazak]

Here's the thing, Smocaine: You either read or you didn't read. If you read, then that take on Gin is definitely a bunch of hot garbage and is indicative of coming from scum who's jumping on the current hotness and hoping no one notices. If you didn't read, then that means your opinions, which you couldn't have had a lot of time to develop, are ill informed, and you jumping in with "You look like scum caught for the wrong reasons." boils down to a useless platitude that you think is valid for some weird reason. You could still be scum ganging up on the current quick wagon, but you could also be town who just looked at a small sampling of pages, thought you had enough to form an opinion, where in reality you don't know which way is up in this game.

[Bulbazak]

@Toto: Every time someone tries to figure things out with something other than hopes and dreams, you come in to discredit them, not based on the validity of their analysis, but rather that we should just do what feels right and anything else that tries to reduce the fallibility of players is scum driven, just because you can't argue against it.

[Bulbazak]

And yes, I think you're scum because of that, because I don't think a town player makes that sort of argument. And if they do, then they need to be lynched post haste.

[Bulbazak]

And I have been developing reads not based on these methods. I simply use other forms of analysis as tools to help with PoE as we get deeper into the game, because I don't believe that just reading based on emotions is an effective way to scumhunt. The thing is that you ignore those types of reads when it's convenient for you, and then when I use analysis, and then use it as a tool and explain why I'm doing what I'm doing, you go "Ah ha! So you use analysis (that I don't believe in) but then don't follow it blindly! Scum!", even though I explained my thought process and why I was doing what I was doing. You only care if it benefits you, and you're just looking for cheap lines of attacks. I don't attack players based on playstyle or how they scumhunt, because that is not alignment indicative, and I realize that other players are not like me. However, you are going "What is the easiest way for me to attack and discredit a player and maybe get a mislynch? I know! I'll attack how they scumhunt! Not their motivations or why they're doing what they're doing. No. Something superficial like playstyle is all I need! Meeeeooooowwww!".

[Bulbazak]

Toto's been in more than 5 games. I know, because I just looked at his topics. And not all of those are Newbie games. So he knows enough to know that there are different playstyles and approaches to mafia. Yet he's taking the "If I don't understand it, then it's not town." approach when it comes to how players interact with the game. And surely this isn't his first time seeing a player who relies on meta reads or someone who uses some form of wagon analysis. And if you pay attention to what his approach is in this game, it's not to question those methods he doesn't understand but to discredit them and paint them as not reliable compared to gut feels. From someone who says he's not "opposed to objective scum hunting tools" he seems pretty opposed to them in principle.

[Bulbazak]

@Checkers: Are you saying that after more than 5 games, Toto is still incapable of believing that people can scumhunt differently than him?

[Bulbazak]

What reversed you scumread on Toto, Checks? Because it seems to have come from freaking nowhere.

[Bulbazak]

See my problem with you the past couple days, Checks, is that your pushes have gotten incredibly shallow. "You're not scumhunting" is just a buzzphrase if it's not actually followed up with something. It's something you throw out there as a reason for scumreading someone or to get ready to push someone, and you hope that no one looks too deeply into it. If I say someone is not scumhunting, it's followed by an explanation of why I think that's a case, so that I'm actually backing up what I'm saying. And in my case, we both know that the "you're not scumhunting" line is utter crap, since I've been saying why I'm reading certain people as town or scum the whole game. It just feels like an attempt to either help develop or leap on the potential for creating a mislynch on me d3. The Ginngie push was similar, as "you've only been pushing town" is a contentless reason that looks good enough at first glance to attract a few players for a wagon, but in the end, it normally doesn't hold up, as there's that whole "uninformed majority" thing going on in the game. It's a push you make when you know you've got nothing, but you want to make it look like you're actually pushing a scumread. They're both shallow reasons that I wouldn't really expect to be coming from you as town, and that's really weakening the good vibes I was getting from your mechanics stuff.

[Bulbazak]

3040 and 3043

Go on...

[Bulbazak]

And I feel you've been slinging crap since C was selected.

[Bulbazak]

I also expect that we're going to have to lynch you at some point soon, so it's not worth engaging you on an obviously flawed approach.

This pretty horrible.

It probably is. I was in a bit of a mood on Friday.

3040 and 3043

Go on...

You're conflating a reason to discredit my read with discrediting my slot, and making a point of it while claiming to not care. There's also inherent scum incentive to leaving someone you think is lynchable for lylo.

I have a bit of an insight into you for reasons I can't get into yet. You entering in and immediately jumping on the Ginngie wagon for the crap reason of "scum mad because caught for the wrong reasons" is either dumb or scum, and I can honestly see it going either way. Your slot is essentially in the PoE list for pretty much everybody, so that means that your lynch is one that will probably have to happen, either because you're scum or just to clear the pool out in order to nail whichever scum is left.

Like I kind of get why you are angry at me for me shitting on your VCA but it was bad. Ramcius is town, you should vote someone else.

I can agree with you that the latter VCA was bad, and I even mentioned as much. I don't put much stock in it. Yet, that was the point you decided to attack, even though in an earlier post I said that I didn't think it meant anything. You looked for a weakness and tried to dismantle my entire Ramicus push, even though the weakness you attacked had nothing to do with why I was voting Ramicus. I still hold that my comparison of the Mick wagon to the d2 B voters has merit, although I don't think it's telling the whole story. I think it's good enough to find 1-2 scum. And I still think your approach here is scummy as crap. If you are actually town who thinks Ram is also town, then explain why. Otherwise, bugger off.

Toto's Real Time VCA

vonflare (0): [L-7]

Desperado

(2):

Toto, Creature

[L-5]

RachMarie (0): [L-7]

checkersman7 (0): [L-7]

Transcend (0): [L-7]

Ginngie (4): Elliberetta, InactionDan, Smocaine [L-4]

Ramcius

(3):

Bulbazak, Thor665, Majiffy, EddiePhenix

[L-3]

Not voting (12):, SnarkySnowman, momo, Lil Uzi Vert

Rule of thumb: If you ever get to the point where you think everyone on a wagon is scum, then it's time to reevaluate your reads. Otherwise, this is just cheap fear-mongering.

the desperado wagon is SO promising and has so much resistance

In a game where only 3 scum know each other, and only 2 of those can vote at a time, this statement doesn't mean as much as it usually does.

Checkers "listen to me and sheep, I was totally right on my CMM lurkhammer that flipped green, this can't POSSIBLY go wrong"

Okay, I'm just putting a stop to this. Checkers likes to hammer. Period. He was on the Mick wagon earlier, and Gin pointed out he wouldn't be the hammer vote, which is why Checkers got off. He exhibited the same behavior in 17 Kilos, and he was town there. I just think this is a null tell, and you need to stop pushing it as a scum tell. If Checkers is scum, it's not because of this.

@Bulb

, use the vote to the full extent if the mod allows for it.

I doubt the mod will let me, and anyways, I want to keep you vote parked on Ramicus.

I think I need to hop on the ginngie wagon, mainly because I tr everyone on it + can kinda see the case. Ramicus would have been my first choice, but thor + jiffy, plus uncertain feelings on bulba.... not sure. Desp is not my pref choice and I'd only vote there to sheep obvtown creature.

VOTE: ginngie

Ew. Snarky's officially gone from null to scum.

@Checkers: You somehow conveniently skipped Alisae responding to what I was saying, yet later saying that she wasn't reading a thing I was saying, but conveniently had a town read on me.

UNVOTE: Ramicus

I do want to think about this a bit while I catch up. I still think Ramicus is a good lynch, but Momo joining gives me pause. I also want to talk to Elli and try to get her off Ginngie, even if it's on to Desp. If an agreement can be made, then I'm willing to talk.

I'll pick back up...
On to page 128.
But seriously, I'm tired and busy and unlikely to even get back to this game for the rest of today. I needed a break over the weekend, and I'm not sure I'm satisfied with where things lie right now. I'm making this a priority tomorrow, so hopefully Elli or some other reasonable person is on to talk to. If Ginngie is still unsure about C, we can always try working through things tomorrow. I also want to get to Desp's big pile of bull crap (Yes, I saw that. I skim the most recent page on my phone every once in awhile. I just don't like posting from it, and I don't log in, because I don't want to lose my place.) In the meantime, this might be enough to do the trick.

Okay, I'm gone for the day. Peace people!

[Bulbazak]

i suggest you to look at first game before make such conclusions - setup was different, but i like how hard you holding onto me, i admire your passion

I did, actually, because I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt. The first game had the exact same scum wincons.

then try 1 more time, i will give you a hint - traitor didn't counted for scum wincon in first game, so basically it was 4 vs 1 in all groups opposed to 5 vs 2 and 3vs 2 after ML in B, when in first game it was impossible to get 3 vs 2 scenario

Quoting from all scum role PMs in last game: "You win when all the Town have been eliminated from a single Group or nothing can prevent this and there is at least 1 Mafia member left alive."
This includes the traitor, who was called "Mafia Traitor" in that game.
I'd expect if you were town, you might say something along the lines of "Yeah, but I didn't notice it in the last game.", something to show that you might have just missed it. However, you're doubling down, which shows that you were definitely aware of the win con going into this game, and your hop off of B because "You're right, Chess!" comes across as extremely fake.

i've barely read I'm just trusting chess on ging atm.

Ginngie is acting exactly the same as 17 Kilos. She's town. You're on a bad wagon.

when bulb is scum, he has a mechanical tic, especially in active games, where he is perennially "catching up" and he ends many posts with "on to page_____"

as town, he either doesn't use this at all, or if he does, it's sparingly and not as rote

in my head he'd been using it a lot more in this game but he's actually only said it once and it's the kind of whimsical version that comes from town him who legitimately just got backed up. as scum i suspect he's actually keeping up with the thread at all times but uses the catch up style posting to further his agenda

This is crap, and a myth I've seen pop up every now and then, with the most recent being from Titus in Night & Day. The thing is that I believe you know better, especially since you had a 100% read rate on me prior to your hiatus, and given how I'd end up behind in a lot of games and have to do massive catch up posts, there's no way you were relying on a mechanical tell that is actually fake. You wouldn't have that degree of accuracy if you did. Not to mention the fact that a mechanical tic like that would be the first thing I'd notice as scum, and I would either stop using it or use it in all of my games period. It sounds to me like you tried to invent a scumread on me to push later via "I can read him via a super secret tell.", and when Elli pushed back and asked for it, you were left scrambling, leaving you to rely on pulling out a general Bulba tell to pass off as a scum tell, because, surely, there are quite a few scum games you can point to where the mechanical tell pops up. And if you leave out all those town games, man, it sure looks like you're onto something.

And the only reason I haven't been as mechanical here is because I'm bored and just want to spice things up a bit. Also, not being too behind makes it less of a slog to do.

@Elli: Did you want recent scum samples from me. I can provide you the most recent scum game from a known alt, a hydra, and my main, although I'm not sure how much digging I'll have to do for that last one.

I'll take you up on this now.
Just do the ones that are ez and you don't need to dig for.

I'll do this in a little bit in its own post.

? He's pushing (albeit in his way) his scumreads and has explained his meta tell/a debate with someone

He's been sitting on easy wagons and coasting, and he gave an explanation only when Elli asked for it, multiple times, and when he explained it, the tell was bull crap, as it would have never accounted for his previous 100% read rate on me. And prior to giving the tell, he backed off, probably because I actually called him out on his BS, and he knew that if he went forward, that I'd definitely call him out on his "tell" and ensure that he was dead and buried. This is not indicative of town behavior on Desp's part. It's indicative of him screwing up, trying to grasp for an explanation, and then saying "Well, he's probably aware, so just read his games.". That's not an actual tell. That's Desp pretending he had something, and then saying, "Welp, I guess it's not accurate anymore." when pressured.

And if you want to see a real Desp "I have a tell" moment, go look at Maniacal Mafia, where he essentially says "Bulba is playing exactly like his scum game, and these pushes are scum pushes." and doesn't rely on a crappy mechanical tell. That's what Town Desp scumreading Bulba looks like. It's based on play and not "He's using a couple words when he catches up.".

@bulb i have explained a fuckload times why I think ram is town

Alisae's replace out is NAI. Try again.

I do want to think about this a bit while I catch up. I still think Ramicus is a good lynch, but Momo joining gives me pause

Don't do this to me Zak we have a good thing going on

In order to get the lynch, we need both LUV and Snarky to get on, which I'm not sure will happen. That's our best bet. Toto and Creature will vote Gin over Ram, guaranteed. Otherwise, you need to convince either Elli or Dan that Ram is scum, which may be a hard sell. So it's either wrangle two cats, one of which is probably also scum, or try to convince Ellie/Dan to join on Ram and hope LUV hammers.

And don't think that I'm having doubts on Ram-scum. I noticed how Alisae was trying to discredit any future pushes from me while claiming that she hadn't read what I said. But apparently, even though she hadn't read what I said, I'm town, I'm wrong, and somehow she actually responded to things I did say. I noticed how contrary she was acting to what I expect from town Alisae. Ginngie's right about the nonsensical nature of her arguments, but she's wrong about Alisae being headstrong not coming from her as scum. See Night & Day, where she hard pushed the fake guilty narrative, even when argued with. She didn't back down then, and Gin thinks she'd back down here? Does Gin think she's that scary to Alisae? I think that Alisae's emotional replace out was not indicative of town, and I can definitely see it coming from scum. I didn't miss that Ram's vote on Mick was probably the scummiest on the wagon. That was a "me too" vote, where he slipped in, voted the popular wagon, and then just quietly left. I want someone to give me one hard stance that Ram has given, one argument, that is not rooted in mechanics or his predecessor. He doesn't want to turn the argument on how his slot is scummy onto him and discuss it from there, but keep it rooted in Alisae. If he does that, he can just defeat it with "Well, I'm not my predecessor.", even though it's been noted that we all have scumreads based on his actions as well. But he doesn't want to talk about that, and if he was town thinking it was just about his predecessor, why did he never try to take the discussion away from his predecessor and onto him? "I'm not Alisae" is a half action if it's not followed up by "Let's talk about me specifically? Do you think I'm scummy? Let's talk why.". And that replace out from him is definitely scum motivated, as it was based on him not wanting to deal with the pressure on his slot, and he framed it as an attack based on his predecessor that he couldn't deal with, even though he never made an attempt to move the conversation beyond Alisae. The attempt to defend Ram, from both himself and others, have been firmly rooted in Alisae, and not in anything that Ram has done, and Ram's not made a concentrated effort to change that.

On to page 134.
I'm just going to do this from now on just to pick on people who actually think that catching up and reminding myself where I am is somehow alignment indicative. I actually thought I would be busier, so I needed to stop on this page, but I have some time to finish my catch up and start posting links until Elli pukes.

[Bulbazak]

no, my defense is that you either stubborn bad town or scum, you try push "alignment won't change" idea, when you only guessing alignment, which is ridiculous - your read is subjective, you can't push it as objective argument

What, exactly, constitutes "objective" in mafia arguments? I'm genuinely interested.

well, me knowing my alignment is objective for example

i'm glad you know that most things aren't objective in mafia, so why you act like your read on my slot is absolute and unchangeable?

I really want to know why people are townreading these types of arguments from Ramicus.

[Bulbazak]

@Elli: Most recent scum games
As known alt (Tails): Open 691
As hydra: Hunger Games II
As myself: Persona 4

[Bulbazak]

i suggest you to look at first game before make such conclusions - setup was different, but i like how hard you holding onto me, i admire your passion

I did, actually, because I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt. The first game had the exact same scum wincons.

then try 1 more time, i will give you a hint - traitor didn't counted for scum wincon in first game, so basically it was 4 vs 1 in all groups opposed to 5 vs 2 and 3vs 2 after ML in B, when in first game it was impossible to get 3 vs 2 scenario

Quoting from all scum role PMs in last game: "You win when all the Town have been eliminated from a single Group or nothing can prevent this and there is at least 1 Mafia member left alive."
This includes the traitor, who was called "Mafia Traitor" in that game.
I'd expect if you were town, you might say something along the lines of "Yeah, but I didn't notice it in the last game.", something to show that you might have just missed it. However, you're doubling down, which shows that you were definitely aware of the win con going into this game, and your hop off of B because "You're right, Chess!" comes across as extremely fake.

you did lazy job - " In addition to this, Mafia have a Traitor who does not count as a member of the Mafia until all the main Mafia members are Lynched." that's from first game and we not lynching in B not because of mafia can kill all town in B, but because it might end 2/2 in B and that's straight up loss, when B would be in charge of remaining group A or C, it's alternative wincon, not direct one described in scum rolecard

Good job. You were right on the traitor, which means nothing, because my original point was that the scum wincon was the same: that all town had to be killed in a group in order to win. Saying "Well, it was just a tiny bit different" doesn't mean a thing when the game's format is essentially the same. You don't get a pass here.

no, my defense is that you either stubborn bad town or scum, you try push "alignment won't change" idea, when you only guessing alignment, which is ridiculous - your read is subjective, you can't push it as objective argument

What, exactly, constitutes "objective" in mafia arguments? I'm genuinely interested.

well, me knowing my alignment is objective for example

i'm glad you know that most things aren't objective in mafia, so why you act like your read on my slot is absolute and unchangeable?

I really want to know why people are townreading these types of arguments from Ramicus.

Why telling someone that they can't lock replacement in read they had on pred is scummy?

And when I said that I was also scumreading you? You didn't push that, but hid behind your predecessor so we couldn't attack you? And what about all my reasons for scumreading your slot that I gave Majiffy? That wasn't just Alisae. You are holding onto your predecessor and using her as a shield so that you can excuse your own scuminess.

[Bulbazak]

@Transcend: Tails is a bit of a trolly alt. I originally modeled the playstyle after Metal Sonic.

[Bulbazak]

I didn't miss that Ram's vote on Mick was probably the scummiest on the wagon. That was a "me too" vote, where he slipped in, voted the popular wagon, and then just quietly left. I want someone to give me one hard stance that Ram has given, one argument, that is not rooted in mechanics or his predecessor. He doesn't want to turn the argument on how his slot is scummy onto him and discuss it from there, but keep it rooted in Alisae. If he does that, he can just defeat it with "Well, I'm not my predecessor.", even though it's been noted that we all have scumreads based on his actions as well. But he doesn't want to talk about that, and if he was town thinking it was just about his predecessor, why did he never try to take the discussion away from his predecessor and onto him? "I'm not Alisae" is a half action if it's not followed up by "Let's talk about me specifically? Do you think I'm scummy? Let's talk why.". And that replace out from him is definitely scum motivated, as it was based on him not wanting to deal with the pressure on his slot, and he framed it as an attack based on his predecessor that he couldn't deal with, even though he never made an attempt to move the conversation beyond Alisae. The attempt to defend Ram, from both himself and others, have been firmly rooted in Alisae, and not in anything that Ram has done, and Ram's not made a concentrated effort to change that.

[Bulbazak]

Going 5 games at a time. Why? Easier to digest, and to really dig in the point:
Night and Day (Town)
Hunger Games II (BulbaFenix - Scum)
The First Mafia (Town)
Order of the Stick (Town)
Machina Mafia (Void Protectorate - Town)

[Bulbazak]

I literally asked wait for Mick, i unvoted twice to not lolhammer, but when everyone in group inactive af and people wanted Mick dead, FYI it was Luv, who was made my mind up, when he came up and said it's thanksgiving and asked end it.

"L-2 we're waiting for you Mick" is incredibly fake justification for joining the most popular wagon. The only vote that was worse than yours was Assemble's.

Also, should i point out that you voting together with momo - person you were sitting on during Mick's lynch?

I'm currently off the wagon, and that's one of the reasons why. I'm taking some time to clear my head a bit. But even if I jump back on, you and Momo can both be scum and not know that you're both scum. That's a very weak attempt at discrediting my push.

Do you want me to bring Ali for you to explain his actions? How i'm supposed to know why he changed his reads? How i should know why he said what he said? You really not making sense with it, so tell me how i can get in Ali head to explain what he did?

I'm pretty sure I cut everything having to do with Ali when I reposted that snippet above. Yet you've still found a way to bring the argument back around to "Well, I'm not responsible for what my partner did or said, so you can't hold it against me.".

[Bulbazak]

Is Bulba catching up a scum tell? Let's find out, in Part 2 of our series:
Mafiaception (Town)
Persona 4 (Scum)
FF7 (Town)
We Didn't Playtest This (Bulbasaur Commenwealth - Town) (Fun fact: I got so behind in this one, that I hid in the hydra most of the time and eventually stopped following the game. Mastin and Voidedmafia had to coax me back during endgame.)
Signs and Void (Town)

[Bulbazak]

*Bulbasaur Commonwealth

[Bulbazak]

And now?

[Bulbazak]

Why do you think Ginngie is scum?

[Bulbazak]

@Elli: I pointed out that Gin is the same here as 17 Kilos. Why are you still on that wagon?

@Ram: Any other reads?

[Bulbazak]

How is she not like Kilos, Checks?

And I think Trans is town.

[Bulbazak]

Ed's vote does not move off Ram until your vote comes off of Gin.

P-edit: I have some personal experience seeing how Ginngie works as scum. I've even linked it. Twice. This is not it.

[Bulbazak]

@ Mod:
Eddie Fenix unvotes Ramicus

Now to see if the proxy actually worked...

[Bulbazak]

@Elli: Talk to me about Desp. I'll go back to linking games in the meantime. I'm feeling particularly spiteful today...

P-edit: Shared a scum PT with Ginngie. She was freaking out the whole game.

@Elli: I can skip to the older games now if you want. The scum tell's a fake. He's seen me as town catching up in a similar manner.

[Bulbazak]

Maniacal Street Mafia (Scum. Desp town.)
Big Brother (Scum. Desp town.)
Watch Your Step (Scum. Desp town.)
The Mod is Dead: Fire and Ice Edition (Town. Desp scum.)
Left 4 Dead (Town. Desp town.) (Oh look, Chess was in this game too.)
Playing Card Mafia (Scum. Desp Town.)

That's every game in my wiki where Desp and I played with each other. There may be more, but I'd have to dig through my bookmarks. Point is that he's seen me as town in catch up mode. And if you actually look at some of these games where I was scum, I believe he caught me before I reached that point, so the tell is bunk.

[Bulbazak]

@Elli: I pointed out that Gin is the same here as 17 Kilos. Why are you still on that wagon?

@Ram: Any other reads?

null on Von, Checkers town, Trans prob too, Rach null zone, maybe leaning scum for attack on Snarky, he's not only person voicing scumreads in other groups, so why excude him like that?

Any from outside C? I don't need a breakdown by player. I'm just trying to see some type of read progression from you.

has desp ever been the screaming I've caught scum shut up and sheep type tho

If Desp was town who really thought I was scum, he'd be pushing me a lot harder and would be more vocal. Check out Watch Your Step, where he calls me out pretty much immediately.

I don't think I posted once in that game

Well, we both got killed on the same night, and I townread your hydra pretty much immediately.

[Bulbazak]

You've made plays?

[Bulbazak]

@Ram: Snarky town?

[Bulbazak]

I think I need to hop on the ginngie wagon, mainly because I tr everyone on it + can kinda see the case. Ramicus would have been my first choice, but thor + jiffy, plus uncertain feelings on bulba.... not sure. Desp is not my pref choice and I'd only vote there to sheep obvtown creature.

VOTE: ginngie

I mean, this looks like hedging his bets to me.

[Bulbazak]

In what way?

[Bulbazak]

VOTE: Desperado

[Bulbazak]

Mikan is an Alisae alt.

[Bulbazak]

And if you want to see a real Desp "I have a tell" moment, go look at Maniacal Mafia, where he essentially says "Bulba is playing exactly like his scum game, and these pushes are scum pushes." and doesn't rely on a crappy mechanical tell. That's what Town Desp scumreading Bulba looks like. It's based on play and not "He's using a couple words when he catches up.".

maniacal was like my 2nd or 3rd game on site? pretty sure i'd never played with you before.

You hadn't, but you did go back to my only other completed scum game, Newbie 1333, and you called me out for playing extremely similarly to that game. The thing is, I didn't post any sort of catch up post in that game, so our first game together, where you correctly identified me as scum, you did so based on meta from another game that did not feature any sort of catch up post, meaning that your "tell" is something that you invented this game. In fact, the first time I ever caught up in such a manner was in Void Mountain of the Nightless Temple, where I was town.

no, the point is that the tell was a lot more nuanced than "is bulb ever in catch up mode?"

i also never said i'd caught you with it before. i was pretty explicit about why you were scum in playing card and it dovetails pretty nicely with what i've been saying in this game so what are you even talking about?

You gave a scumread on me. Elli asked you about it. You said you had a super secret tell on how to catch me as scum. Elli pressed you on it. I called BS. You gave away the tell as being based on how I catch up, more specifically, my saying "On to" and the page number at the end. You essentially said that you had a super secret scum tell on me to catch me as scum, and then revealed that to be a mechanical Bulba tic, which you immediately backed away from when "forced" to reveal the tell.

In order to get the lynch, we need both LUV and Snarky to get on, which I'm not sure will happen. That's our best bet. Toto and Creature will vote Gin over Ram, guaranteed. Otherwise, you need to convince either Elli or Dan that Ram is scum, which may be a hard sell. So it's either wrangle two cats, one of which is probably also scum, or try to convince Ellie/Dan to join on Ram and hope LUV hammers.

Honestly as long as we keep the votes up and Ram remains the lead wagon, people are either going to have to settle for Ram or nut up to forcing an NL on D3.

There's no reason for us to back off a lynch we're confident on just because we don't think we'll get the numbers while there also exists very few viable counterwagons.

You need to learn how to push through lynches, kid.

I believe Desp and Ram are both scum, and I want them both dead in equal measures. At that point in time, I was more interested in getting Elli off of Gin, who I am strongly townreading, and that meant voting for my other scumread in the hopes that she might agree and join me there. At the moment, I'm willing to give Ram some time to change my mind. But that time is not infinite, and if no one wants to lynch Desp-scum, I'll make sure Ram's lynched instead.

That's what Thor does as scum too.

Thor also does it as town.

Vaxkiller is making me want to kill Assemble slot.

Why?

I could also do rach as a 3rd option.

Rach is town.

[Bulbazak]

I don't think anyone was.

What about Desp?

[Bulbazak]

I actually would suggest that as long as you have people who know how to read Alisae, then town reads are usually what you get.
I don't see that happening here.

I think it's funny that Ram just ignores this to continue pushing "Ali is always scumread, so this push on me is bad!". Thor just said that you rely on people who normally know how to read Alisae, and generally they give townreads, except in this game. AKA the people he normally relies on to tell him Ali is town is telling him the exact opposite this game. Meanwhile, Ram is stuck recycling "Ali is always scumread" and ignoring the whole point that there are people in the game who know how to read the slot and are not happy.

What are the odds ram is scum? I'm around 66%. Desp is 50/50 for me.

Then why aren't you voting Ram? Are you just buddying me?

@Elli: You've been provided countless meta at this point to show you that Desp is lying out his butt, but you're on a lurker instead. You posted a meta case from another game to explain why, but Ginngie has posted multiple games to show why this is null. So why are you still on Vonflare and ignoring Desp?

[Bulbazak]

should have used words

through the limited amount of games von does play, it's quite shite as scum and you can tell he tries as town

general trend I looked at so I'm okay with the votes

How do you feel about Desp and Ram?

what am I lying about exactly?

It's like you're not reading.

P-edit: I never said I did town read Thor, but I'm not scumreading him. I'm at "fine with his content and can figure it out later".

[Bulbazak]

I want Desp and Ram equally. Von is that blank slate on the wall that keeps coming up town based on other reads. I wouldn't cry if he was lynched, but deep down, I don't think he's the right lynch, and he'll probably end up flipping town. I'm onboard to lynch Desp, but if I don't see any movement in that direction over the next day or so, I'll be jumping back on Ram, and that will probably be the catalyst for his lynch.

P-edit: Thor could be scum pushing other scum. As town, his reasons line up. As scum, he's probably just sheeping Majiffy. And if not, I don't care much to jump into why he's doing what he's doing atm. That will become clear over time. In essence, his alignment has no bearing on your alignment or on my read of you.

[Bulbazak]

For B, here's where I'm at: LUV is town. Momo is scum. Snarky is more likely to be scum based on #3125. Majiffy and Thor float in the nullish zone. I don't think they're both scum. At most, only one of them is scum. Given current reads, they're probably more likely to be town. Anything other than that I can sort out later when we go back to B with investigations.

[Bulbazak]

You posted a meta case from another game to explain why, but Ginngie has posted multiple games to show why this is null.

should have used words

through the limited amount of games von does play, it's quite shite as scum and you can tell he tries as town

general trend I looked at so I'm okay with the votes

1. Did you click on it? It wasn't from a game.
2. How does ginn's response make you feel.

1.) I clicked on it and only read the post about Von's posting habits.
2.) I don't feel as annoyed by you, but I still think you are going through some mental gymnastics with Desp. Vax is now on the Desp wagon. I'd prefer that one at this point, but if you'd prefer to go after a lurker, I'll just go back onto Ramicus, and LUV will hammer.

Bulba

being wrong about an unconcious tell and then taking it back

isn't lying.

For someone who lives and dies by the meta dive, you obviously aren't reading. He never used that tell before to read me. It's something he made up for this game when pressured. In essence, he's lying.

[Bulbazak]

2.) I don't feel as annoyed by you, but I still think you are going through some mental gymnastics with Desp. Vax is now on the Desp wagon. I'd prefer that one at this point, but if you'd prefer to go after a lurker, I'll just go back onto Ramicus, and LUV will hammer.

so you're threatening him with playing against your wincon?

Ram's a scumread. Desp is a scumread. I want them both dead. I'm willing to work with Elli to lynch a scumread (Desp), especially since she doesn't want my other scumread dead. That gives her, and potentially him (Ram), time to convince me that I'm wrong. I don't want to lynch a lurker when I have two solid scumreads. If Elli wants to lynch a lurker, and doesn't want to lynch one of my scumreads, then I'll just hop onto the scumread that is guaranteed to go through as soon as I switch my vote.

What part of that is hard to understand?

I'm not reading very carefully if at all for some posts that's correct.

from what i've read it looked like he had this tell for you stored up and this was the first time he saw it pointing to you being scum in a live game and then he got excited but then he realized it didn't apply and was like aw shucks and just outed it.

Is there something i missed that points otherwise

Except if you look back over our history playing together, you'll find that it's a tell that'd be impossible to have. Desp has a history of nailing me as scum, but if you go back to our first game together, you'll find that he used my very first scum game, Newbie 1333, as a basis to judge my play. He never went into what triggers his read, but it's based on that first scum game. You want to know what's not in that first scum game? Catch up posts. You want to know where the first catch up post shows up? A town game, one that Desp could, and probably did, access if he wanted to get a meta read way back then. Go back and read those games and you'll see that Desp is basing his read off of the way I'm playing the game, more than likely how I push people, not with how I catch up.

The point is that he threw out a scumread in this game. When asked about it, he essentially says it's based on a super secret tell. I call BS. You pressure him endlessly about the tell until he gives it up, rather easily I might add. And it ends up being...catch up posts? And then he backs off the tell immediately? In essence, he got caught with his pants down, was called out for his BS, and then had to make up a "tell", one that he hoped would sound plausible. And then he just goes into lurk mode again and hopes everyone will be satisfied enough to leave him alone. I'm not, and I'm pointing out how full of crap he is.

[Bulbazak]

I want a Desp wagon either finalized or on its way to being so by the time I leave work on Monday. I will stay on the wagon until 2PM EST. If I don't feel like Desp will happen at that time, I will move back to Ram.

You have

(expired on 2017-12-11 14:00:00)

.

If you guys move to do something stupid, I reserve the right to move back before that time.

There's your timeline, Elli. Do what you need to do.

[Bulbazak]

Let's see:

There are players that actually think he's scum and isn't just policy lynching him for not doing anything like we have done with CMM. He has been a major counterwagon to both Ginngie and Ramcius.

You defending Desp lynch, but what info we get? Who is scum, if he flip red? Who is scum, if he flip green?

If he's scum, we either get rid of a traitor, which is one less scum PR, or we get rid of a goon. If Desp is a goon, that gives us associatives to track down all the other goons. If Desp is town, then we look at the reasons he was pushed and see if anything doesn't line up. We also compare the wagon to the Mick wagon and see if anything shakes out. Compared to Vonflare, people have actually taken hard stances on Desp, which means it will be easier to root out scum. Vonflare is a lurker lynch, which doesn't provide us with as much information, because it's easy to lynch a lurker and not give reasons.

I mean you've heard from several people in thread that he tries as town

in response to that he comes in and tries To:townthoughts: for 10m but theyr e all bad and not town thoughts

bad =/= scum

I like this post from Thor

it makes me happy

I think I've worked around to both Thor and Majiffy being town. It didn't make sense for them both to be scum given what we've seen, and I always had a problem buying the scum reads on the slots, because it always felt like there was an agenda being pushed there. There are definitely people not liking how Thor and Majiffy play and equating that as scum, but there's also something else at play here. Those pushes on the slots definitely feel like they weren't earned.

yeah lol I looked up his exam schedule if he said they were all over the last week I was going to get him lynched.

I mean my finals week was this week, or last week considering it's now Sunday

I have no idea what school he goes too tho

I looked up his school and the dates for classes in what I think he's majoring in lol

I just want you to know, if you put in this much work trying to appear town as scum, then holy shit.

That's why I have Elli as a "no duh" townread, and I really don't want to imagine her being scum here.

@Elli: I think Desp is just trying to lay low here and hoping the pressure goes away.

[Bulbazak]

Spoiler: It's like I said something about this...

He doesn't want to turn the argument on how his slot is scummy onto him and discuss it from there, but keep it rooted in Alisae. If he does that, he can just defeat it with "Well, I'm not my predecessor.", even though it's been noted that we all have scumreads based on his actions as well. But he doesn't want to talk about that, and if he was town thinking it was just about his predecessor, why did he never try to take the discussion away from his predecessor and onto him? "I'm not Alisae" is a half action if it's not followed up by "Let's talk about me specifically? Do you think I'm scummy? Let's talk why.". And that replace out from him is definitely scum motivated, as it was based on him not wanting to deal with the pressure on his slot, and he framed it as an attack based on his predecessor that he couldn't deal with, even though he never made an attempt to move the conversation beyond Alisae. The attempt to defend Ram, from both himself and others, have been firmly rooted in Alisae, and not in anything that Ram has done, and Ram's not made a concentrated effort to change that.

[Bulbazak]

And to be fair, I'm off the Ram wagon giving him room to breath, since he seems to imply that's what's holding him up. I've yet to see anything that's impressed me.