Open 688: Diffusion of Power (Game Over)

[Titus]

I was N1 doc and saved Creature.
This is the reason why I was a bit suspicious of Agent's claim.
Although there could be 2 docs, for me it's unlikely that there could be 3 docs on N1.
I would like to lynch between Agent and Sheep.

Creature slot died n2. That's why we aren't lynching Alban.

[Titus]

Error Kelvin is trying anything possible to avoid lynching Navy at this point.

Uh, I'm pretty sure I agreed to a Navy lynch if everyone agreed to lynch you tomorrow. I'm not doing everything possible to avoid a Navy lynch, I'm doing everything possible to get a Math/Titus lynch, because I'm pretty sure that's where scum is and your flip would confirm or deny that hypothesis.

Stall tactic 101. Do I need to look up how many times scum have said "Hey mislynch this person and I help you tomorrow" and then conveniently something comes up. Yes you literally are.

What in the actual fuck are you talking about, Math? Stop misreping me! That's literally the opposite of what I said. What I actually said was "I'll help you mislynch this person today and you help me lynch scum tomorrow."

You're quoting exactly what I said and calling it different. Dude just eat rope.

Unless I am misunderstanding you are saying I said:
Let's mislynch Math today, then I'll help you lynch Navy tomorrow (but I secretly won't, because Navy is my scumbuddy *teehee*).

What I'm actually saying:
I'm so confident that Math will flip town, that I'll help you lynch Navy (even though it's probably a mislynch) if you people agree to lynch Math tomorrow.

The difference is that I'm putting the trust in everyone else, rather than having them put their trust in me. So stop fucking lying.

On a side note, they would be in a good position to put their trust in me. Even if I were scum, I wouldn't go back on a deal, because that would hurt my credibility in later games. I'm the guy in a board game that never betrays someone first, because I want a reputation for honesty.

Now you've just made it illegal to accept your offer as you have tied it to performance in future games. You aren't allowed to make any promise in future games.

[Titus]

Titus, are you aware that there are 5 claimed Docs, not 4?

Alban is just not getting lynched today or ever. That's just a fact with this game setup. He's that town.

[Titus]

Error Kelvin is trying anything possible to avoid lynching Navy at this point.

Uh, I'm pretty sure I agreed to a Navy lynch if everyone agreed to lynch you tomorrow. I'm not doing everything possible to avoid a Navy lynch, I'm doing everything possible to get a Math/Titus lynch, because I'm pretty sure that's where scum is and your flip would confirm or deny that hypothesis.

Stall tactic 101. Do I need to look up how many times scum have said "Hey mislynch this person and I help you tomorrow" and then conveniently something comes up. Yes you literally are.

What in the actual fuck are you talking about, Math? Stop misreping me! That's literally the opposite of what I said. What I actually said was "I'll help you mislynch this person today and you help me lynch scum tomorrow."

You're quoting exactly what I said and calling it different. Dude just eat rope.

Unless I am misunderstanding you are saying I said:
Let's mislynch Math today, then I'll help you lynch Navy tomorrow (but I secretly won't, because Navy is my scumbuddy *teehee*).

What I'm actually saying:
I'm so confident that Math will flip town, that I'll help you lynch Navy (even though it's probably a mislynch) if you people agree to lynch Math tomorrow.

The difference is that I'm putting the trust in everyone else, rather than having them put their trust in me. So stop fucking lying.

On a side note, they would be in a good position to put their trust in me. Even if I were scum, I wouldn't go back on a deal, because that would hurt my credibility in later games. I'm the guy in a board game that never betrays someone first, because I want a reputation for honesty.

Now you've just made it illegal to accept your offer as you have tied it to performance in future games. You aren't allowed to make any promise in future games.

How is that making a promise in future games? That's called establishing a meta.

Yes, you're trying to establish how you'll behave for a future payoff. That's the best interpretation. Each game is its own closed universe.

[Titus]

Titus, are you aware that there are 5 claimed Docs, not 4?

Alban is just not getting lynched today or ever. That's just a fact with this game setup. He's that town.

In what sense is he that town?

n1 claim. He healed Creature. Creature then gets attacked again.

@Math/Kelvin, For the love of goodness you two. We have one mislynch. Start solving the game with at least a hint of assuming each other could be town. You both are town. We cannot lynch you both. Just can it. I'd policy lynch either of you if we had the mislynches left. We don't. No, you're not using this to convince me to vote either of you. I'd rather no lynch.

[Titus]

Error Kelvin is trying anything possible to avoid lynching Navy at this point.

Uh, I'm pretty sure I agreed to a Navy lynch if everyone agreed to lynch you tomorrow. I'm not doing everything possible to avoid a Navy lynch, I'm doing everything possible to get a Math/Titus lynch, because I'm pretty sure that's where scum is and your flip would confirm or deny that hypothesis.

Stall tactic 101. Do I need to look up how many times scum have said "Hey mislynch this person and I help you tomorrow" and then conveniently something comes up. Yes you literally are.

Math, they are tunnelling you. They're playing according to ABR's guide and he's the most toxic player on the site. Ignore them. Focus on Navy.

I don't know who or what an ABR is, but what I'm trying to do is fucking win this wrecked fucking game.

Game isn't wrecked at all. If you'd be considering the possibility of Math town, the game is near solved.
Navy is like 95% scum.

Even if Math were town, which they probably aren't, how is it near solved? Finding one scum is nowhere near solved. Also, even though RC townreads you, doesn't mean I do. I still think you're the scum among the Docs.

And that's the problem. If Navy flips scum, there's no longer a requirement for scum in the doctors. It also means a Math mislynch couldn't go through even with you telling for it. When Navy flips scum, just how many town do you think will be sitting with you? You'd have to reasses everything. I'd still have to peel Math off of you, but most everyone would know exactly where to find scum.

[Titus]

Error Kelvin is trying anything possible to avoid lynching Navy at this point.

Uh, I'm pretty sure I agreed to a Navy lynch if everyone agreed to lynch you tomorrow. I'm not doing everything possible to avoid a Navy lynch, I'm doing everything possible to get a Math/Titus lynch, because I'm pretty sure that's where scum is and your flip would confirm or deny that hypothesis.

Stall tactic 101. Do I need to look up how many times scum have said "Hey mislynch this person and I help you tomorrow" and then conveniently something comes up. Yes you literally are.

What in the actual fuck are you talking about, Math? Stop misreping me! That's literally the opposite of what I said. What I actually said was "I'll help you mislynch this person today and you help me lynch scum tomorrow."

You're quoting exactly what I said and calling it different. Dude just eat rope.

Unless I am misunderstanding you are saying I said:
Let's mislynch Math today, then I'll help you lynch Navy tomorrow (but I secretly won't, because Navy is my scumbuddy *teehee*).

What I'm actually saying:
I'm so confident that Math will flip town, that I'll help you lynch Navy (even though it's probably a mislynch) if you people agree to lynch Math tomorrow.

The difference is that I'm putting the trust in everyone else, rather than having them put their trust in me. So stop fucking lying.

On a side note, they would be in a good position to put their trust in me. Even if I were scum, I wouldn't go back on a deal, because that would hurt my credibility in later games. I'm the guy in a board game that never betrays someone first, because I want a reputation for honesty.

Now you've just made it illegal to accept your offer as you have tied it to performance in future games. You aren't allowed to make any promise in future games.

How is that making a promise in future games? That's called establishing a meta.

Yes, you're trying to establish how you'll behave for a future payoff. That's the best interpretation. Each game is its own closed universe.

Each game is not it's own closed universe. If it was, meta wouldn't ever be used.

I am, and always have been, trying to establish a meta of consistency and honesty as a player. Any game where you can point to where I've done something underhanded would completely undermine that level of consistency. To my knowledge, there's nothing in the rules against trying to cultivate a meta. I've made no promises for current or future rewards and asked for no current or future rewards. I'm simply referencing self-meta to point out that I am generally a trustworthy player and will always be so.

If you want a meta as an honest player, you can start with intellectual honesty.

I have that meta as an honest player. It doesn't come from bribery in future games. It comes from just finishing games, answering questions (unless I miss them), and being honest about my flaws.

You are not open to questioning. You are pushing an agenda because you are convinced you are correct. You're not discussing other slots or having others included in the process. That is a problem.

[Titus]

Titus, are you aware that there are 5 claimed Docs, not 4?

Alban is just not getting lynched today or ever. That's just a fact with this game setup. He's that town.

In what sense is he that town?

n1 claim. He healed Creature. Creature then gets attacked again.

So if I'm understanding correctly, alban protected my slot Night 1 and there was no kill? Couldn't scum also just no kill Night 1 to get a Doc in super town position though? That doesn't prove anything to me.

@Math/Kelvin, For the love of goodness you two. We have one mislynch. Start solving the game with at least a hint of assuming each other could be town. You both are town. We cannot lynch you both. Just can it. I'd policy lynch either of you if we had the mislynches left. We don't. No, you're not using this to convince me to vote either of you. I'd rather no lynch.

Won't can it. I'm trying to solve the game and that means we need info. Math gives us the most info and is therefore the best lynch. If you want to convince me otherwise, do a better job actually doing it. I've already considered that Math could be town, but I'm not going to work under that assumption, because it's a fucking dumb assumption to me.

Creature is JJ slot not you.

Your rationale applies to anyone claiming a cop clear. It makes you look like as if you're afraid of a solid wall of townies that you are not a part of. Your read reeks of fear based logic. Math is jumping to scum, although they've posted from the same place repeatedly in Wake's game.

[Titus]

*jumping to assuming you are scum

[Titus]

That was a N1 protect?

Yes. We have 3 n1 doc claims and no kill
You, Navy, alban

alban healed Creature
Creature slot died n2.

[Titus]

No. None of these 1 v 1s are happening. No one gets to dictate their will over the game. This is a team game. At least 3 of you I am pretty sure are town.

Let's just suck it up and get along.

[Titus]

Alban or math I'm prob sheeping kelvin. Essentially u have a double vote.

Then we have lost. I won't vote either. Neither is scum.

I am not dictating to anyone that personal tunnels are bad. They just are.

[Titus]

Titus can you please just trust me and we lynch math?

No. I am not voting in this personal drama tunnel crap.

[Titus]

Can you trust me that Math and Kelvin are both town?

[Titus]

Okay, so forget about them for now.

Doc claims.

I think Navy is town. can we lynch Alban?

No.
Alban healed Creature.

[Titus]

What happens when Navy flips town?

Then the cop acts help a reset, but she most likely isn't. She's posting elsewhere not here.

[Titus]

there's a reason the first thing I did when I replaced in was to tell them to get their butt back here.

But yet you refuse to lynch them.

[Titus]

why are you acting like I should conflate Navy refusing to post with being scum?

No I'm not going to fucking lynch them because if I lynch them you're not suddenly going to start thinking that math or alban are scum.

And guess what, if I lynch Math you won't lynch or bus Navy. There's no reason to TR them.

[Titus]

why are you acting like I should conflate Navy refusing to post with being scum?

No I'm not going to fucking lynch them because if I lynch them you're not suddenly going to start thinking that math or alban are scum.

And guess what, if I lynch Math you won't lynch or bus Navy. There's no reason to TR them.

Why don't we do this another way.

You vote MathBlade with me.

If they flip town, I give you whatever lynch you want.
If they flip scum, you agree that your reads are not on point this game and I get a doublevote.

Would you do that and lynch Navy? The 1 v 1s are toxic.

[Titus]

If you agree that you're claiming scum if you don't vote with me tomorrow, yes.

I'm not literally 100% sure that Navy's town and that's not the point of this exercise but I am not okay with you lynching her and turning on me.

Then what is the point?

[Titus]

The point is that how I expect this game to go right now is that Navy gets lynched, flips town, then I get lynched over Alban tomorrow and scum win.

If you're going to vote elsewhere on a scumflip I'm okay with following you. If you're going to follow my reads if Navy's town I'm willing to take a chance on a lynch I'm not confident in.

The thing is if I am wrong, then we lose because someone will vote Math or Kelvin.

[Titus]

That assumes that Math is town. If you're wrong on Navy why are you so confident that you'd be right on Math?

Because I can tell when my sibling is off the deep end. Tbh, I'd lynch all the 1 v 1s but we lack the lynches.

[Titus]

If you're not going to agree to lynch my target tomorrow then I'm lynching Mathblade today.

No you're not unless Math is town.

[Titus]

Like Titus work with RC please so this doesn't turn into an I get mislynched you get shot 0 conf town scenario for LyLO

So, you feel that confident I am right on Navy? Otherwise if I am wrong town is fucked

[Titus]

Nice to see you Gamma. Gtg

We massclaimed cop/docs

Navy is scum

I am dtunk

[Titus]

Navy is scum

Fucking why?! Did I just miss it or are you never going to answer the damn question?

Navy is avoiding this thread while town rips itself

[Titus]

Navy is scum

Fucking why?! Did I just miss it or are you never going to answer the damn question?

Navy is avoiding this thread while town rips itself

Yeah, and I asked if there was actually another reason besides that. So you are saying that is the one and only reason that Navy is scum, correct?

It's the best one. The heals are crap. The wagon motion says Navy scum. They haven't scumhunted.

[Titus]

There's no reason to TR Navy, yet major resistance

[Titus]

Titus, have you made a decision?

I'm even willing to knock Math off the lynch list because there's two other scum and I feel like I know both of them.

So you'd be eilling to not lynch Math tomorrow. Who do you wanna lynch?

[Titus]

Navy is scum

Fucking why?! Did I just miss it or are you never going to answer the damn question?

Navy is avoiding this thread while town rips itself

Yeah, and I asked if there was actually another reason besides that. So you are saying that is the one and only reason that Navy is scum, correct?

It's the best one. The heals are crap. The wagon motion says Navy scum. They haven't scumhunted.

Crap heals are town-indicative, at best.

The wagon motion says nobody wants to lynch a lurker when we have three scum on the board and we're a day from MyLo.

If I had a quarter for every time somebody said that X town player wasn't scumhunting, I'd be fucking rich, so get that tired shit out of here.

Yeah and I have seen enough tunnels.

[Titus]

-Alban confirmed scum
-Gamma entrance terrible

I miiiight do Gamma.

Alban lock town to me.

The only docs I see could be scum if you are town are Navy and Kelvin but I reallly doubt Kelvin.

[Titus]

Blinkering?

[Titus]

@Kelvin, eould anything ever convince you lynching Math is not the best play?

[Titus]

@Kelvin, eould anything ever convince you lynching Math is not the best play?

[Titus]

No. He hasn't. Nor have you beyond "strategy". He's sick of the town 1 v 1 garbage and so am I

[Titus]

And ftr if we lynch in the docs we're copping the shit out of mathblade.

This makes sense.
Let's cop me then build the holy all town Trinity.

I'm half tempted to do this, because as far as I'm concerned, a Cop claiming an innocent on you is essentially a scumclaim. But by the same token, I'd rather not waste a Cop on someone who is so damn likely to be scum. Better to use it to try to get actual info.

...Or you could ya know quit pinning your scum team's hopes and dreams on me being a mislynch. Heaven forbid you have to admit I am Town.

You clearly don't know me. As scum, I doubt I will ever pin my hopes on anything other than my cockroach-like ability to survive. I'd certainly never pin my hopes on the mislynch of a single player.

Math, this is rather townie.

[Titus]

If you suggest copping me one more time rather than copping Math, my townread on you will be completely obliterated. That is hands down a waste unless Math flips scum. Your "strategic" thinking has been nothing more than circular logic. Every cop theoretically (although unlikely) could be town.

[Titus]

prodge
aka prod dodge

Okay that avatar is really confusing
I thought Creature had returned for some reason

Creature slot is dead

[Titus]

Gamma, lynch Navy with me?

[Titus]

If you suggest copping me one more time rather than copping Math, my townread on you will be completely obliterated. That is hands down a waste unless Math flips scum. Your "strategic" thinking has been nothing more than circular logic. Every cop theoretically (although unlikely) could be town.

You seem to have this crazy misconception that we aren't lynching Math today and that they aren't flipping scum. Both are likely occurrences, therefore you are a good Cop target. We obviously wouldn't Cop you if either didn't happen, but like I said, I'm talking likely.

There's nothing circular about my strategy, other than the fact that it is a cycle that can be repeated in order to gain information and catch scum.

Now, unless you have a scum army, that is not happening.

[Titus]

Time for a survey

Do you like mutton chop?
On a scale from one to one hundred, how cute are you?
Can you dance?
The pain threshold of most humans, including myself, is thirteen. Can you top it?
One of the lesser known facts about ants is that they can detect a fire. Do you believe this?
Right now, I obsess over Paddy, who I think is incredibly cute. Do you agree with mia?

Yes and no answers only. Any other type of answer will be dismissed and discarded.

I never knew Navy was an RQS person

They aren't really and they have been gone for 4+ days while posting on their other accounts.

[Titus]

If you suggest copping me one more time rather than copping Math, my townread on you will be completely obliterated. That is hands down a waste unless Math flips scum. Your "strategic" thinking has been nothing more than circular logic. Every cop theoretically (although unlikely) could be town.

You seem to have this crazy misconception that we aren't lynching Math today and that they aren't flipping scum. Both are likely occurrences, therefore you are a good Cop target. We obviously wouldn't Cop you if either didn't happen, but like I said, I'm talking likely.

There's nothing circular about my strategy, other than the fact that it is a cycle that can be repeated in order to gain information and catch scum.

But it just defers the issue to another person. All I see happening is "okay now this person says Titus is town, do we believe

them

?"

Yes. Then we lynch that person. Anyone with an innocent gets the rope. Guilties get lynched, but if they aren't scum, the Cop gets lynched. Any Cop that doesn't claim a result by Day 6 gets lynched. Any Cops that have been sitting on reports need to report them immediately or get lynched for it later. As I said, there will be a full framework in order to ensure that we actually lynch scum, confirm town, and Doc the right target. I just need some time to lay it out. I want to try to do it sooner, rather than later, that way we can find any holes in it and make sure it's viable.

We could easily do full framework now.

Each cop claimer gets assigned a doctor (not me) or Math to check while being as consistent with their reads as possible. Zero overlap.

[Titus]

Wait, did Gamma replace back into the spot he had?

Yes

[Titus]

If you suggest copping me one more time rather than copping Math, my townread on you will be completely obliterated. That is hands down a waste unless Math flips scum. Your "strategic" thinking has been nothing more than circular logic. Every cop theoretically (although unlikely) could be town.

You seem to have this crazy misconception that we aren't lynching Math today and that they aren't flipping scum. Both are likely occurrences, therefore you are a good Cop target. We obviously wouldn't Cop you if either didn't happen, but like I said, I'm talking likely.

There's nothing circular about my strategy, other than the fact that it is a cycle that can be repeated in order to gain information and catch scum.

But it just defers the issue to another person. All I see happening is "okay now this person says Titus is town, do we believe

them

?"

Yes. Then we lynch that person. Anyone with an innocent gets the rope. Guilties get lynched, but if they aren't scum, the Cop gets lynched. Any Cop that doesn't claim a result by Day 6 gets lynched. Any Cops that have been sitting on reports need to report them immediately or get lynched for it later. As I said, there will be a full framework in order to ensure that we actually lynch scum, confirm town, and Doc the right target. I just need some time to lay it out. I want to try to do it sooner, rather than later, that way we can find any holes in it and make sure it's viable.

We could easily do full framework now.

Each cop claimer gets assigned a doctor (not me) or Math to check while being as consistent with their reads as possible. Zero overlap.

I'll have to think about whether or not that will work, but it sounds like a bad plan. First problem I spot is that scum are just going to kill Cops of people that they don't want result. Also, lack of overlap is actually really bad in some ways, because it means that we can never check that person again if the Cop assigned to them is scum.

Anyway, it looks like important stuff is out of the way right now, so bed for reals. Wanna sleep at least 4 hours, ideally.

And if they kill based on hiding info, they cannot hide all of it.

If there are 2 cops tonight, scum cannot kill them both. They won't know which one leads to a certain result.

[Titus]

@Kelvin, If we don't lynch me or Math, who do you want lynched and why?

[Titus]

@Kelvin, If we don't lynch me or Math, who do you want lynched and why?

I don't think you understand me: If we don't lynch Math, then as far as I'm concerned, we are playing Mafia wrong. Like, it's that simple. Even lynching you, as much as I might personally be okay with it, is the wrong move. I don't want anyone else lynched and I likely won't support any other lynch right now.

Then either one of us must convince every slot of town together.

That's insanely high odds and likely not going to happen.

[Titus]

Mathblade <--- NJAC cops
RadiantCowbells <--- Gamma cops
Navy <---- lynched
alban <--- Vedith cops
Kelvin Smith <---- Paul cops

Sound like a good plan?

[Titus]

Whereas them doing it as town. Sorry for the poor wording.

So, there's 3 potential doc protects.

1) Gamma/Itlepip, who was a major wagon for a substantial amount of D1 and as a result feels really unlikely to have been the shot.
2) Creature, who was not a major wagon but also not a major priority and is not a particularly threatening player as scum
3) NJAC. Heavily townread, never wagoned, on the lower end of activity but contributed a lot to the game.

I strongly believe that my protect was the one that actually happened.

You know what
RC isn't actually so bad from what I'm seeing in my catch-up
And Kelvin's points about the AS thing so far make sense
I might be wrong on you RC. I want to discuss reads with you rn.

Njac has never been a heavy TR

[Titus]

Mathblade <--- NJAC cops
RadiantCowbells <--- Gamma cops
Navy <---- lynched
alban <--- Vedith cops
Kelvin Smith <---- Paul cops

Sound like a good plan?

Mathblade <--- lynched
RadiantCowbells <--- Gamma cops
Navy <---- NJAC cops
alban <--- Vedith cops
Kelvin Smith <---- Paul cops

Objectively, tell me what we have to gain by lynching Navy now and Copping Math, rather than the scenario I just posted? That scenario confirms you right now if Math is town.

And please don't say we have a scum lynch to gain, because I can say the exact same thing about lynching Math.

No you cannot.

We also gain a solid town block that cannot be broken by lynching Navy.

[Titus]

UNVOTE: RadiantCowbells
At this point I'm willing to talk with him a bit
I'm still going to discuss the AS thing with Kelvin though

What did you want to discuss with me about AS? Regarding why he would assume his thing was wrong, right?

I'm trying to wrap my head around explaining this strategy. It makes sense to me intuitively, but it's really complex and difficult to lay out. I'm trying, but there are many permutations, so I'm going to need to figure out how to streamline that.

Yeah
While the initial logic is explained I still feel his reactions aren't very towny

Tbh, that's why you should just cop RC

[Titus]

Mathblade <--- NJAC cops
RadiantCowbells <--- Gamma cops
Navy <---- lynched
alban <--- Vedith cops
Kelvin Smith <---- Paul cops

Sound like a good plan?

Mathblade <--- lynched
RadiantCowbells <--- Gamma cops
Navy <---- NJAC cops
alban <--- Vedith cops
Kelvin Smith <---- Paul cops

Objectively, tell me what we have to gain by lynching Navy now and Copping Math, rather than the scenario I just posted? That scenario confirms you right now if Math is town.

And please don't say we have a scum lynch to gain, because I can say the exact same thing about lynching Math.

No you cannot.

We also gain a solid town block that cannot be broken by lynching Navy.

I mean, I can. Unless you can some sort of definitive evidence that Navy is scum (lurking is not definitive evidence), then you don't know for a fact that she's scum. Likewise, I don't have definitive evidence that Math is scum. We're both going off what we

believe

to be true. So if you can talk out of your ass and say that lynching Navy guarantees a scum lynch, then so can I.

And explain to me this "town block that cannot be broken" nonsense. How would lynching Navy achieve that at all?

Math gets copped, those pushing Math as scum doctor get copped.

Scum have no way of knowing which doctor or Math gets checked. We create viable universes with more information.

Selectively posting is a scumtell btw.

[Titus]

That sound like it only works with a no kill tbh
Is that what you think happened? This isn't accusatory, just a feeler for what you think went down.

If that's what happened there might be multiple n1 claimers as scum.

[Titus]

You know what? Fucking do it. I don't even care anymore. You broke me. I hope for your sake that you're scum Titus.

VOTE: Navy

I don't want this to be one of us "breaks" the other but a discussion with you. You are right we need a plan, do you see any flaws aside from not Math?

[Titus]

We confirm the possible setups by the results garned back. Let's suppose for a moment, I assigned only town to check town and scum to check scum but for one scum who checks a town.

We'd get several pools, no bus situation and all cards are on the table.

Second, I would lynch Math in the right spot, not just now. Lynching Math gives me zero info.

[Titus]

We confirm the possible setups by the results garned back. Let's suppose for a moment, I assigned only town to check town and scum to check scum but for one scum who checks a town.

We'd get several pools, no bus situation and all cards are on the table.

Yes, but how would we know which was which?

Second, I would lynch Math in the right spot, not just now. Lynching Math gives me zero info.

Do you not realize how this seems like a supremely selfish mindset to me? I've been saying I think you're scum, because you're not willing to do some pro-town shit because it doesn't benefit you, personally. You're making it all about whether or not

you

get the info. If you're town, then I'd hope you'd understand that there are 6 other town players in the game. Even if we assume that Math is town, that's still 5 other players who could desperately use some info about conftown. It helps everybody else's PoE, even if it doesn't help yours. So if you can't see that, then I really don't know what else there is to say.

Yeah, I don't lynch for info. You're the one who is being selfish. Guess what? Everyone but you already knows I am town. We learn nothing.

Keeping Math alive does help everyone's PoE.

I told you for awhile, we are agreeing to disagree right here.

You've failed to even consider what happens in a Math town universe. I have considered Math scum.

[Titus]

@RC, just help me get this Navy scum lynch.

[Titus]

no. on principle I refuse to vote with you and implicitly acknowledge that what you are doing here is okay.
its not. you talk so much about cooperation and town unity but all it ever seems to mean to you is everyone doing what you want.

No. That's not it at all. I have tried to address Kelvin's concerns about Math PoEing us and divising a doctor plan. I am trying to get the best from people.

Now, if you can highlight a specific behavior you felt shut down conversation, ok.

But you never mentioned me not trying to work with others before in this game which kinda pings.

[Titus]

Kelvin, I was waiting for you to present a case on Mathblade. It doesn't help that you keep touting your case on Math as a strong case. It might be so for you, but it's not for me, and if you want my vote on Math, you need to revise your case. I am not averse to their lynch even without your reasons coz they have been on my radar, but since your whole plan seems to rest on Math lynch, you should try harder to present your case. Right now, the attitude is take it or leave it, which isn't helping anyone.

Titus, you need to present an equally strong case on why not Math.

Both of you have done it in bits and pieces, but it's scattered. So if you could present it here in a concise manner, it will help.

Ok.

Why not Math?

They get ridiculously omgusy as town. They are easily picked on. Math is floated as a strategic lynch which benefits no one as no one scumreads me and basically gives scum an excuse to lynch an innocent claiming cop whenever. The argument check Titus again, that slot gets lynched.

PoE works better when equally restrained. Scum are not going to bus Navy alban. That slot is never showing up or getting replaced.

[Titus]

like I know exactly what buttons to press here if I were scum to get you to do what I want. you know that as well as I do. if you're going to make zero effort to try to understand how I tick the least you could do is show my reads some respect.

I am by planning around them for if I am wrong but I am not lynching in cop claims when confirmed scum in doctors. Period barring a scumclaim from Math which does not exist.

[Titus]

we both agree with the assessment that this game suffers from too many cooks in the kitchen but you're refusing to any sort of compromise that isn't literally just your reads being followed.

sorry do you think that you're just better than me and kelvin and others and our reads dont matter? like even contingent on someone being proven right you are just like nah my reads go

?? Why are you yelling at me when I am compromising on Navy and have been trying to get you and Titus to work together ??

The only acceptable lynches today are doctors. The only decent one is Navy. RC would be my next choice.

[Titus]

I agreed to lynch navy if you would start listening to my reads

if

you were wrong. on a read im not even sure is wrong given Alban's fit.

why am i required to continually make concessions to you when we disagree?

No. I am. Assigning the cops is making a concession Math could be scum. I gave my biggest TR the responsibility of checking you because I don't trust you, mainly because you cannot see town Math.

[Titus]

I can't agree to follow your reads given a) I am not 100% on Navy and b) you're my second choice RC.

You can play to my emotions quite well as scum. We know this.

I also know I am vulnerable to pride.

Eliminate that so I can trust yoy.

[Titus]

I agreed to lynch navy if you would start listening to my reads

if

you were wrong. on a read im not even sure is wrong given Alban's fit.

why am i required to continually make concessions to you when we disagree?

No. I am. Assigning the cops is making a concession Math could be scum. I gave my biggest TR the responsibility of checking you because I don't trust you, mainly because you cannot see town Math.

nah thats not a concession.

why should I even want cops spent on a slot i'm sure is scum?

PoE and you're wrong. I'd bet the game on Math being town right now. I am not willing to bet the game on Math being scum.

It is a concession to use a cop on locktown reads RC. We need to merge this. I'm not letting a mislynch on Math happen.

Now, why is Navy town without talking about Math.

[Titus]

VOTE: titus

this is the best move for the health of the game.

No. You're just butthurt tiwn or scum pissed you cannot mislynch Math.

You can get pissed or we can work out a plan that clears you. I told you after other games, you aren't strongarming lynches on my TRs. You do that as scum.

[Titus]

Kelvin:
"If Math Flips Town, all Docs on Titus and all Cops on Navy.
If Math flips scum, All Docs on Gamma and all Cops on alban."

This won't fly.
1. If Math flips town, why should cops be on Navy? They should be on you or RC coz you are the ones pushing their lynch.
2. If Math flips scum, why should the cops be on me? They should obviously be on Titus who is fighting to stop their lynch.

Agreed.

If Math flips town and Navy is town, the game is over bc that slot isn't here and gets defended a lot. It's mislynch bait.

I don't mind being copped in the event Math flips scum, but they won't.

[Titus]

no as scum I manipulate you into townreading the people I want alive and scumreading town. why can I snapread you but you have never even tried to learn to read me?

Can you stop the woah is me manipulation?

This AtE is a conjob and egotistical. You are saying you're so great as scum but wonder why I can't read you. Pick one. Either you can manipulate me to the point where I am rightfully cautious of you, or you're easy for me to read. Trying to pick both makes me feel you are grandstanding.

[Titus]

RC id vote with u but Titus wont go anywhere. Also Math is a better lynch info wise.

Rn I'll even lynch alban.

pedit: sorry im just very very very pissed. apologies alban. I wuz out of line.

And why won't you lynch Navy?

[Titus]

Kelvin:
"If Math Flips Town, all Docs on Titus and all Cops on Navy.
If Math flips scum, All Docs on Gamma and all Cops on alban."

This won't fly.
1. If Math flips town, why should cops be on Navy? They should be on you or RC coz you are the ones pushing their lynch.
2. If Math flips scum, why should the cops be on me? They should obviously be on Titus who is fighting to stop their lynch.

1. Pushing a bad lynch doesn't imply scum. There were easier lynches and we've both pushed the hell out of this lynch. But notice how both the Math and Navy wagons have stalled out. To me, that's indicative that maybe scum legitimately don't like either. And you pushing for inherently bad Coppings strengthens RC's case on you.

2. Likewise, Titus can make poor decisions and still be town. It's true she's defending the hell out of Math and that's suspect. But this Navy wagon stalling out is also suspect.

1. Correct but being wrong this vocally makes you mislynch bait. I have been firm in not voting either you or Math for a reason. You're both town. You get a Math lynch, I am not going to be able to haul your ass out of the fire.

[Titus]

i can manipulate you because it mattered to me enough as a player to learn what makes you tick. why did you never care enough to do the same?

And you're trying to manipulate me now regardless of alignment in a slimy way.

You also know I am slower to pick up on things like that.

I don't like being manipulated RC.

[Titus]

i can manipulate you because it mattered to me enough as a player to learn what makes you tick. why did you never care enough to do the same?

And you're trying to manipulate me now regardless of alignment in a slimy way.

You also know I am slower to pick up on things like that.

I don't like being manipulated RC.

no this is me trying to have a conversation with you

in case you hadnt realized you never pick up on me actually manipulating you.

are you slower or have you never tried?

When you start insulting me saying I never try to work with you or solve you, it is manipulating. You're trying to guilt me into conclusions that have no basis in the thread.

You want to talk to me about Math scum. We can do that. Leave the politicking out of it.

First, why hasn't Navy wagon taken off if Math is scum?

[Titus]

Kelvin:
"If Math Flips Town, all Docs on Titus and all Cops on Navy.
If Math flips scum, All Docs on Gamma and all Cops on alban."

This won't fly.
1. If Math flips town, why should cops be on Navy? They should be on you or RC coz you are the ones pushing their lynch.
2. If Math flips scum, why should the cops be on me? They should obviously be on Titus who is fighting to stop their lynch.

1. Pushing a bad lynch doesn't imply scum. There were easier lynches and we've both pushed the hell out of this lynch. But notice how both the Math and Navy wagons have stalled out. To me, that's indicative that maybe scum legitimately don't like either. And you pushing for inherently bad Coppings strengthens RC's case on you.

2. Likewise, Titus can make poor decisions and still be town. It's true she's defending the hell out of Math and that's suspect. But this Navy wagon stalling out is also suspect.

1. Correct but being wrong this vocally makes you mislynch bait. I have been firm in not voting either you or Math for a reason. You're both town. You get a Math lynch, I am not going to be able to haul your ass out of the fire.

Don't worry about hauling my ass out of the fire. Let me worry about that. We've got RC and Paul who know that a Math town flip doesn't mean that I'm scum. You apparently are convinced that I'm town. I obviously won't self-vote. That's 4 of the 9 remaining players after Math's lynch. One may die at Night, but that still leaves 3 of 8. That means literally everyone else has to vote me tomorrow to mislynch me. Considering Gmma's townread on me and RC, I really don't see that happening. Don't pretend like you are protecting me from myself, cause what you're actually doing is protecting Math from me.

I am doing both. Because guess what I don't townread RC.

[Titus]

me hiplop and kats all agreed we were a townbloc in f2f mafia. we all voted summer. it took 2 minutes before anyone would hammer so she was confscum obviously. she flipped town and venged empire. we lynched ari then chevre and won. all 3 of us had been town who correctly 'townblocked'

I like townblocks too. That has zero to deal with the question I asked.

[Titus]

i can manipulate you because it mattered to me enough as a player to learn what makes you tick. why did you never care enough to do the same?

And you're trying to manipulate me now regardless of alignment in a slimy way.

You also know I am slower to pick up on things like that.

I don't like being manipulated RC.

no this is me trying to have a conversation with you

in case you hadnt realized you never pick up on me actually manipulating you.

are you slower or have you never tried?

When you start insulting me saying I never try to work with you or solve you, it is manipulating. You're trying to guilt me into conclusions that have no basis in the thread.

You want to talk to me about Math scum. We can do that. Leave the politicking out of it.

First, why hasn't Navy wagon taken off if Math is scum?

It's not meant as an insult. I genuinely feel exactly the fucking same as RC right now. It feels like you preach cooperation, but practice totalitarian rule. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh to you, but it's what it fucking feels like.

Maybe because Navy is also scum? Alternatively, it's entirely possible that it hasn't taken off because of a combination of inactivity and a block of town voters who actively prefer a Math lynch. The thing is, if I had acquiesced earlier, you probably could've easily gotten that Navy lynch. On the other hand, even if you had given in on Math, getting the support would have still been difficult, though not impossible.

No. I cannot even discuss reads with you and get anything beyond Math is scum and you should listen. We aren't cooperating because there's no dialogue from you. No willingness to consider you might be wrong despite me making every effort to plan as if I am both right and wrong.

The town block mostly was on Navy until Vedith said to hell with this game. Gamma is leaning towards Navy. You're being stubborn about lynching Math because they claimed an innocent.

If Navy is also scum, then why are you so adamant about not lynching them? Math can never ever turn on me ever. I can force them to vote first according to proper lylo play if they are scum. They can be forced to not go off the deep end.

If you're wrong and I'm wrong, the game is over anyway because Navy will never vote.

[Titus]

then you missed the point of the story.

Enlighten me.

@Kevin, All it takes is one town idiot or you pushing another mislynch for it to be gg tomorrow.

[Titus]

scum aren't ever as predictable as you expect them to be: your subset of reads based off of 'scum would do x' are never right

And now you're talking down to me. My reads on town are usually right. My scum ones can be wrong from time to time. You've been wrong too. I believe even Cerb has it in his sig.

But it tells me all I need to kniw. You came in supposing I was wrong rather than actually talking RC.

But I will try again, why is Navy town? Why is she worth keeping alive? This game is essentially already lylo if Navy is town. Guess what, that means your Math lynch won't happen.

[Titus]

I cannot stop Gamma or Alban from voting you Kelvin. I can't force that.

So lynching Math is game over. Doubly so if RC is town.

[Titus]

Doubly so if RC is town.

because you're gonna turn around and mislynch me like our last game?

? In our last game, I faked a guilty on you as scum and still barely got you lynched because you grandstanded quite well like you're doing now.

You're still avoiding giving your read on Navy and your thoughts on if they are scum.

[Titus]

i can manipulate you because it mattered to me enough as a player to learn what makes you tick. why did you never care enough to do the same?

And you're trying to manipulate me now regardless of alignment in a slimy way.

You also know I am slower to pick up on things like that.

I don't like being manipulated RC.

no this is me trying to have a conversation with you

in case you hadnt realized you never pick up on me actually manipulating you.

are you slower or have you never tried?

When you start insulting me saying I never try to work with you or solve you, it is manipulating. You're trying to guilt me into conclusions that have no basis in the thread.

You want to talk to me about Math scum. We can do that. Leave the politicking out of it.

First, why hasn't Navy wagon taken off if Math is scum?

It's not meant as an insult. I genuinely feel exactly the fucking same as RC right now. It feels like you preach cooperation, but practice totalitarian rule. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh to you, but it's what it fucking feels like.

Maybe because Navy is also scum? Alternatively, it's entirely possible that it hasn't taken off because of a combination of inactivity and a block of town voters who actively prefer a Math lynch. The thing is, if I had acquiesced earlier, you probably could've easily gotten that Navy lynch. On the other hand, even if you had given in on Math, getting the support would have still been difficult, though not impossible.

No. I cannot even discuss reads with you and get anything beyond Math is scum and you should listen. We aren't cooperating because there's no dialogue from you. No willingness to consider you might be wrong despite me making every effort to plan as if I am both right and wrong.

I'm fucking tired of you implicitly calling me a fucking liar every time you say this. I've constantly considered that I could be wrong about Math, but I've come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter if I'm wrong, because even if I am, all intellectually honest players (i.e. those who don't consider you conftown without hard evidence) will learn your alignment if Math flips town.

The town block mostly was on Navy until Vedith said to hell with this game. Gamma is leaning towards Navy. You're being stubborn about lynching Math because they claimed an innocent.

You think I care about what your townbloc thinks? I don't trust any of them, you included, either in terms of alignment or judgment.

Yes, in this setup, Cops that claim innocents should be lynched as a best practice. It confirms town (who can receive Doc protection) and roots out any scum trying to buddy/protect their partners. It's arguably the best way to utilize them in this setup.

If Navy is also scum, then why are you so adamant about not lynching them? Math can never ever turn on me ever. I can force them to vote first according to proper lylo play if they are scum. They can be forced to not go off the deep end.

I said Navy could also be scum. I was adamant then because Math's lynch gave us more info on a mislynch, but I'm adamant now because of principle.

If you're wrong and I'm wrong, the game is over anyway because Navy will never vote.

If we're both wrong, the game is still winable, we just have to course correct. And if we lose? Oh well. It's the wages of our efforts.

Best practice is to never lynch a cop with a result. Period. It PoEs scum and forces every one of their nightkills.

Kelvin, I thrive on my townblocks. My townblocks are what tell me what is and isn't possible. I talk with them to filter my reads and see if I am off the deep end. So yes, I value Gamma's opinion. The better my block, the better my reads. So when you say you don't care about my block, you've learned nothing. You remember how I defended Boon in girls girls girls. I was right there.

Math gives us zero information as no one SRs me. Sure players might be annoyed with me, but scumread, no.

You really think you'll course correct after forcing down a mislynch? You want to depend on Navy voting correctly in lylo when I am usually their rock and I'll be dead and if they are town they'll hate your guts (in game). No, she'd vote you without a second thought.

[Titus]

and you know full well I meant last game where we were both town

except for the one I replaced out of because you doing exactly what you're doing here killed my desire to play (mini normal)

extrapolate from that and think long and hard whether me being unhappy with you is a scum ploy

Now, that's not why you replaced out of that mini normal RC.

You said Transcend was lock scum. I told you that you were not mislynching my townread by strongarming. You subbed out. My townread was town. Guess what, Math lynched him after I died despite everyone saying no.

Yet, you'll be unhappy with a Navy lynch as their partner or as stubborn town. I don't know RC. You've done this to me under an alt before (initials PL) and begged me to work with you.

[Titus]

You remember how I defended Boon in girls girls girls. I was right there.

wrong. just because someone isn't mafia doesn't mean they're not scum.

Wtf is this?

Right now, we don't have the lynches to spare. It is black and white. Either you are town or not. Either Math is town ir they aren't.

[Titus]

We could no lynch and then just cop Navy or Math, but that's just y'all refusing to consider Math town.

I am not lynching in the cops RC before the scum doc is found. You want not Navy, find me a better lynch.

[Titus]

I don't have a better lynch in the doc claims as long as you are going to lynch me if navy is town and I can't say 100% that she isn't.

and blowing cops in the doc pool is catastrophically bad long term

Why is it bad long term supposing a Navy scumflip given the biggest protesters are docs themselves?

How can Navy scum not change your readslist?
What is your readslist?

[Titus]

RC id vote with u but Titus wont go anywhere. Also Math is a better lynch info wise.

Rn I'll even lynch alban.

pedit: sorry im just very very very pissed. apologies alban. I wuz out of line.

Don't worry about it. I rather have someone calling me dumass rather the doling out patronising words of wisdom.

Yeah. This game has been very patronizing and insulting while Kelvin basically anti-town tunnels, RC basically is starting from me being wrong..

[Titus]

@Kelvin, Intellectual honesty is about acknowledging ones biases. I am prone to pride, so I try to counter that by discussing with my townblock. It also means applying the same standard.

You've argued you're not getting lynched or killed. I'm very aware bith of us may die. You're acting as if being wrong only has consequences for me. I'm not wrong though.

@RC, I agree 1 scum in doctor. Either you or Navy. Stop supposing you're the NK when your reads are shit. Maybe you're pucking a fight with me as town to help survive. Remember Divergent? We had about half right half wrong and worked through it. You didn't resort to ego games.

[Titus]

RC id vote with u but Titus wont go anywhere. Also Math is a better lynch info wise.

Rn I'll even lynch alban.

pedit: sorry im just very very very pissed. apologies alban. I wuz out of line.

Don't worry about it. I rather have someone calling me dumass rather the doling out patronising words of wisdom.

Yeah. This game has been very patronizing and insulting while Kelvin basically anti-town tunnels, RC basically is starting from me being wrong..

No im starting from if you're wrong i want to take the reins and you're refusing even that.

Right because you've shown me no ability to consider a town Math in the event of even a compromise lynch. Town you would never lynch Navy or cop Navy. You'd go after Alban and Gamma, both town.

I am willing to have Math copped if I am wrong. Everyone unknown doc has a match and a trove of data to compare to.

[Titus]

this isnt ego games this is you refusing to consider that you could be wrong on 5 different reads.

No. You can case someone. You can try to convince me.

I don't think the cops are town.

We agree on Kelvin lock town. Let's start there.

[Titus]

@alban, I don't want to lynch RC unless Navy flips town. I don't trust them 100% but it's more 75% Navy, 20% RC, 5% Kelvin/alban. That doc don't hunt.

[Titus]

No, this is bad. Confirmed town =/= right, first of all. Town can and are wrong all the time. Second of all, a Cop in this setup is unable to confirm anybody tomorrow, because they could be fake. If there is scum among us, you're basically telling scum to fakeclaim and say that the scum is town, which will drive mislynches. If you're town, help either Navy or Math get lynched, because any lynch is better than no lynch right now.

Wrong. If we no lynch and get a clear or two, we have mislynches remaining. Scum clear a buddy, we muslynch arguably. Guess what, the lylo picture starts painting itself.

I think a no lynch is terrible here, but I prefer it over a mislynch.

[Titus]

we aren't copping in the doc claims, period. a cop on a cop confirms the cop and the result.

and no, I said it wasn't because I didn't feel like picking a fight. I will happily show you the pm i sent to the mod while replacing out in postgame

It doesn't though. A lynch on a Cop confirms the result. Cop on Docs, lynch Cops on innocent, lynch Docs on guilty. Confirmed town gets protection.

Yeah or just actually playing Mafia confirms Math as town.

Docs on Cops or clears.
Cops on Docs.
Lynch Docs not cleared until lylo.

So close yet you hang onto giving scum outs because you feel it helps town.

[Titus]

we aren't copping in the doc claims, period. a cop on a cop confirms the cop and the result.

and no, I said it wasn't because I didn't feel like picking a fight. I will happily show you the pm i sent to the mod while replacing out in postgame

It doesn't though. A lynch on a Cop confirms the result. Cop on Docs, lynch Cops on innocent, lynch Docs on guilty. Confirmed town gets protection.

there are a limited # of scum to fakeclaim cop. we arent just gonna lynch inno claims, we are lynching math because scumfuck

Except for Math being scum, I agree with this.

[Titus]

You know what.

Fuck my pride.

If Math doesn't come in with a readslist in 24 hours, this game is over no matter how right I am. It jyst is.

I should just sub out so you can retroactively blame Math for their own mislynch

[Titus]

Because I should bow to my betters am I right?

No one dare explain themselves. We'll just claim Math is scum for days, wear everyone down. Never give a reason. Never engage Titus's scumreads.

[Titus]

@Kelvin, Intellectual honesty is about acknowledging ones biases. I am prone to pride, so I try to counter that by discussing with my townblock. It also means applying the same standard.

No, it's not. It's not about acknowledging one's biases, though it's partially about not letting one's biases impede the search for truth, which admittedly requires one to acknowledge their own biases.

If somebody presents their faith in you as town as though it were actual proof that you are town, that person is being intellectually dishonest.

You've argued you're not getting lynched or killed. I'm very aware bith of us may die. You're acting as if being wrong only has consequences for me. I'm not wrong though.

No. I'm asking you to respect me enough as an intelligent human being to let me handle the consequences of my being wrong. I'll certainly welcome your help, if i am wrong, but you taking all of the responsibility as though you alone are in control of my destiny is simply not okay.

You "accepting responsibility" means we lose. You will get voted. You are an intelligent human. You think no one will vote you or RC with knowledge Navy is scum and Math is town? That's absurd. Someone town will vote you unless I do the one thing I never do but get blamed for. Control everything.

[Titus]

Why do I always have to drop my style of play and cater to how you like to be talked to?

I dunno. Why do you expect that of me? I expect you to try and understand how my reads form and how to rwach me. You claim you can get me to do that when you're scum but it magically fails when you're town. What's the difference in your style of talking?

Why do you expect me to vote my biggest townread, tied with Kelvin on your word rather than you voting someone you agree with me is scum?

[Titus]

We agree on Kelvin lock town. Let's start there.

I'm going to stop you right there. It doesn't matter that I know I'm town. It doesn't matter that I'm obviously town. It doesn't matter that it doesn't make sense for me to be anything else but town. Don't lock me as town unless you have the hard data to back it up. That's just good policy.

Yeah, anyone who gets this pissed at my sibling and cases them for wild statements is lock town. I've dealt with Math enough to know that. Scum love a town Math.

[Titus]

rather than you voting someone you agree with me is scum?

I have told you why I am unwilling to risk a Navy lynch and it comes down to expecting you to mislynch me tomorrow if she is actually town because you hard townread Alban for no reason.

Now, I don't have alban as lock town. He's just very flaming town. I would give you an opportunity to be heard but putting yourself above the team isn't it. You're basically saying you don't trust me to reevaluate. I have made big speeches about townies voting wrong for a reason.

You being unwilling to talk about the foundations of your reads gives me nothing to change my mind with. I have already said alban is town. His frustration and doc choices.

[Titus]

putting yourself above the team isn't it.

you are the only one in the entire game doing this

I'm sorry. Which one of us is refusing to talk about how their reads developed? Which one of us is refusing to lynch a scumread (Navy) because they think their own survival is more important?

How can I ever trust you?

[Titus]

we aren't copping in the doc claims, period. a cop on a cop confirms the cop and the result.

and no, I said it wasn't because I didn't feel like picking a fight. I will happily show you the pm i sent to the mod while replacing out in postgame

It doesn't though. A lynch on a Cop confirms the result. Cop on Docs, lynch Cops on innocent, lynch Docs on guilty. Confirmed town gets protection.

there are a limited # of scum to fakeclaim cop. we arent just gonna lynch inno claims, we are lynching math because scumfuck

Yeah, but every Cop lynched means one more that can be scum. With Math dead, that likely leaves 1 of 4 Cops as scum. Now it's totally true that this means we're more likely to lynch town than scum when there is an innocent, but it's the only way to stop scum from faking innocents. And it means that every guilty we get is that much more likely to be true.

Where the hell did 1 of 4 cops come from?

Scum can fake innocents all they want as they link each other.

We want to stop fake guilties. Fake innocents mean chain lynches.

[Titus]

if i get lynched after navy we flat out lose the game in case you hadnt figured that out

so i either tell the cops to make the incredibly suboptimal play of checking me if navy flips town, get shot later, and you never reconsider math

or we just lynch math today and try to wait to solve docs until scum in cops are dead

You could actually say why you scumread math and alvan, given you know Alban prefers a Math lynch over Navy.

If you're refusing to say why, then you don't get my trust as there is nothing to verify

[Titus]

Alright, unless something non-circular is said here, I'm done with this game for the night. It's going nowhere and neither is my Math vote. Same for tomorrow, since a No Lynch is all but guaranteed at this point. The only way I'm voting anybody other than MathBlade is if a Cop gives me an innocent on MathBlade, in which case I'm voting that scumfuck Cop.

Gee, saying why Math is scum just isn't going to happen is it?

[Titus]

Although if a cop innos Math and we're both alive, that cop MIGHT be a viable lynch.

[Titus]

if navy flips town we either tell cops to check math, in which case scum can easily mislynch me since your reads are bad, or check me, in which case you never reevaluate math

and from a starting ground of you being wrong thats not okay for me

Alban claims to but like I have established has never actually pushed the slot with their voote down for a prolonged period

If Navy flips town, we won't need to check you but check Math. I'd be wrong.

Then, I'd reset based on which slot copped Math but you'd be off the table for the day. Same with Kelvin. I just wouldn't autolynch Math because there's no evidence to SR them.

[Titus]

and note that now that math has momentum hes refusing to do anything but vote RC the vanity wagon

There is no momentum. Town is waiting to see who caves first

[Titus]

lol

You think I am kidding RC? Try me.

What's your Paul read?

[Titus]

Everytime I compromise on locktown, it's town. So why here? The only way town wins is if we discuss things like adults because neither of us has the game lock solved. I think Navy is the only scum doctor. I only see alban with Navy though as he refuses to vote there but attacks you. I need a Navy flip for that to even be viable though.

[Titus]

Either we can talk or we can no lynch. Not talk at me but to me. Present evidence.

If I can't get you to do that but talk about faulty strategy, then this game is all but dead.

[Titus]

or he's scum who realizes that if he lynches navy, they flip town, me and him are in the spotlight. note that he never expressed a townread on navy and he backtracked his scumread on me, so why is he voting me?

He hasn't backtracked on his stance on you. Guess what. Maybe we should force him to take a stand on Navy. But why would he with you trying to bullroad a terrible lynch?

[Titus]

I agree with everything alban has said there but for the lynch you conclusion.

It's not a Navy read though.

[Titus]

So vote Navy with me, even if you don't intend it to go to lynch to force Alban to say which scum is doc if you are town.

[Titus]

Votes are power.

[Titus]

@Kelvin, You know I policy lynch them for agenda driven omgus. You've seen it. Town Math's OMGUS is more you vote me I hate you. Math isn't being unchecked either. I'm not voting you either. Their reads as town are largely shit because they feel they must be in control. While their reads are not better, their play is.

@RC it isn't. Alban and I feel the same way. You shout everyone down as both alignments.

I am going to bed. Please think about getting alban to take a firm Navy stance.

[Titus]

this game makes me understand why people feel the way they do about you.

Well yeah, I won't vote my TRs without reason. I ask you to help prove your theory I had to drag out of you...why? Why can't you just treat me as a normal human being rather than exuding false bravado?

I want to test what you said about Alban which means getting him to take a firm stance on Navy. Do you disagree?

[Titus]

this game makes me understand why people feel the way they do about you.

While I get what you mean, I still feel like that was an unnecessarily harsh way of putting it. I get it, tensions are high right now, but that just felt really mean-spirited.

It wasn't. People feel like explaining their reads is beneath them lately and expect me to roll over. Everytime I do, it's wrong. If it's a nullread, I get it and cave. About 50/50 it's scum. Math isn't a nullread though.

I protect my TRs. Period.

[Titus]

How do you feel about alban needing to take a stance on Navy?

[Titus]

VOTE: navy

I quit. if you're right congratulations. I hope it was worth it to you.

Hey, that's not what I want either. I want to test your theory on alban and get him to take a stance. Not for you to just cave.

I'd go for pages if we could agree on some test that meant we solved the doc setup.

[Titus]

How do you feel about alban needing to take a stance on Navy?

Who, me?

The fact that alban won't support either wagon makes me feel like he's really greedy scum who refuses to bus either of his teammates, and he's just acting like indignant town in order to justify staying off a bus. Main problem with that is it goes against my 2 Cops, 1 Doc theory, but I'm willing to acknowledge that may be inaccurate.

We could lynch alban if he refuses to vote either as a policy lynch is unacceptable.

[Titus]

Good night

[Titus]

Mathblade <--- Vedith cops
RadiantCowbells <--- Gamma cops
Navy <---- lynched
Paul <--- NJAC cops
Vedith <---- Paul cops

I'm ok with this but where's alban on here? That doesn't accomodate your SR.

[Titus]

UNVOTE: Navy

Nope. Not lynching Navy if y'all feel bullied into doing it rather than honest communication happening.

[Titus]

I'm finally logging off of here

[Titus]

Mathblade <--- Vedith cops
RadiantCowbells <--- Gamma cops
Navy <---- lynched
Paul <--- NJAC cops
Vedith <---- Paul cops

I'm ok with this but where's alban on here? That doesn't accomodate your SR.

why would I blow more than 1 cop in the docs?

i'm spending one on me because otherwise you'll throw a fit. inno on me confirms alban as scum anyway.

Not if you/Gamma are scum.

It's probably just NJAC Paul Navy

But maybe alban in place of paul.

Second, not all the cops act n4. The goal is to get 1 result, reasses and make sure we don't double results

[Titus]

UNVOTE: Navy

Nope. Not lynching Navy if y'all feel bullied into doing it rather than honest communication happening.

Fuck that, Titus. You don't get to dictate why we vote just so you can make yourself feel better about forcing our hands. You can have our conviction or you can have our Navy votes, but you don't get both.

Well the we no lynch. I don't bully anyone into anything. We will talk this out. We will find the scum doctor.

[Titus]

which cop do you want checking me then?

Doesn't really matter as long as there's a cop on every living doc (math in place of me if paranoid) and a doc on every cop that can get a result

[Titus]

The point of cops and docs is PoE

[Titus]

Oh and no two sets match. Meaning I can't heal the person responsible for checking Math.

[Titus]

which cop do you want checking me then?

Doesn't really matter as long as there's a cop on every living doc (math in place of me if paranoid) and a doc on every cop that can get a result

we arent fucking blowing 3 cops on the docs ever

No. It's ideal.

Cops check docs.
Docs heal cops.

Scum are fucked. If a cop dies, FoS doc. Scum are forced to shoot in doctors which narrows PoE. Cops also narrow PoE.

[Titus]

UNVOTE: Navy

Nope. Not lynching Navy if y'all feel bullied into doing it rather than honest communication happening.

Fuck that, Titus. You don't get to dictate why we vote just so you can make yourself feel better about forcing our hands. You can have our conviction or you can have our Navy votes, but you don't get both.

Well the we no lynch. I don't bully anyone into anything. We will talk this out. We will find the scum doctor.

Okay, so you're going to hold the whole fucking game hostage because you can't get your way, right?

We want to lynch Math? Titus isn't okay with this because we picked someone she townreads. No lynch.
We very begrudgingly accept a Navy lynch? Titus isn't okay with this because we aren't smiling about it. No Lynch.
The only way we're allowed to have a lynch is if we agree to your lynch in a very specific way. That's fucking trash.

So either I'm a jerk because I won't accept you feeling bullied or I am a jerk for letting you be bullied into a lynch you don't want. That's a no win scenario.

[Titus]

Titus you may not respect me but everyone else in this game does and there's no fucking way I'm letting things go your way.

Cop checks on docs are useless if we don't know what alignments they come from.

That's where PoE comes in. We eventually get to an impossible setup.

Not every cop can say inno. If that happens, we know there must be a partner arrangement

[Titus]

I highly doubt we'll have more than a Cop or two Night 3 anyway, so I'm fine having them on Math if it means we'll actually get a Math lynch tomorrow.

@Titus: If a Cop has a guilty on Math, will you lynch Math?

Depends on who it is

[Titus]

UNVOTE: Navy

Nope. Not lynching Navy if y'all feel bullied into doing it rather than honest communication happening.

Fuck that, Titus. You don't get to dictate why we vote just so you can make yourself feel better about forcing our hands. You can have our conviction or you can have our Navy votes, but you don't get both.

Well the we no lynch. I don't bully anyone into anything. We will talk this out. We will find the scum doctor.

Okay, so you're going to hold the whole fucking game hostage because you can't get your way, right?

We want to lynch Math? Titus isn't okay with this because we picked someone she townreads. No lynch.
We very begrudgingly accept a Navy lynch? Titus isn't okay with this because we aren't smiling about it. No Lynch.
The only way we're allowed to have a lynch is if we agree to your lynch in a very specific way. That's fucking trash.

So either I'm a jerk because I won't accept you feeling bullied or I am a jerk for letting you be bullied into a lynch you don't want. That's a no win scenario.

The problem is, you refusing to lynch Navy doesn't somehow mean that we haven't been bullied. It just means that we've been bullied and denied a lynch.

Look, there's no arguing that RC and I didn't also try to use strongarm tactics. We're not in the right for that. But you're also not in the right because of your stonewalling us and breaking our spirits. What's done is done though. I'm choosing to place my vote on Navy because unlike you, I find a no lynch to be an unacceptable result. An undesirable lynch is almost always better than no lynch. And Navy isn't even that bad of a candidate, just way worse than Math.

Great. Where have you felt bullied aside from me not caving?

I feel no lynch is acceptable if no one wants a lynch. Bullied lynches are on town.

So let's hear RC out on alban being scum doctor

[Titus]

I am going to bed, but this needs to be sorted with no one lock voting anyone or ordering cops around unless its an agreed upon plan.

[Titus]

Actually if we have over lap that means we can possibly get more alignments judged anyway
If we have contradictory results then we have a 1 v 1 and a slot solved
Two of the same means a very likely true result

No overlap means we get a logic setup but it seems I am out voted.

[Titus]

But it's worth the risk when certain targets threaten to rip apart town cohesion and make victory nigh impossible.

*sigh* Other than not agreeing with you, how is town cohesion being ripped apart?

VOTE: Navy

[Titus]

But it's worth the risk when certain targets threaten to rip apart town cohesion and make victory nigh impossible.

*sigh* Other than not agreeing with you, how is town cohesion being ripped apart?

VOTE: Navy

Math threatens to rip apart town cohesion by merely existing while not being Copped by multiple Cops. As long as Paul, RC, and I are alive, we're probably going to suspect Math. You refuse to lynch them (which I'm whatever about at this point), but then you also oppose dedicating more than paltry resources to confirming their alignment for the benefit of us.

Guess what? Paul is scum.

And if we dedicate the cops, we solve this anyway. If we direct a heal to me tonight, I can ensure Math gets copped on n4 but it's still a waste. You convinced yourself of strategy and used that to fuel a read.

What is your alban read?

[Titus]

Wait why is Paul scum?

Coasting tbh. He's following all the major pushes yet not invested in saying who is town and working with them.

[Titus]

Gamma, your alban read?

[Titus]

But it's worth the risk when certain targets threaten to rip apart town cohesion and make victory nigh impossible.

*sigh* Other than not agreeing with you, how is town cohesion being ripped apart?

VOTE: Navy

Math threatens to rip apart town cohesion by merely existing while not being Copped by multiple Cops. As long as Paul, RC, and I are alive, we're probably going to suspect Math. You refuse to lynch them (which I'm whatever about at this point), but then you also oppose dedicating more than paltry resources to confirming their alignment for the benefit of us.

Guess what? Paul is scum.

And if we dedicate the cops, we solve this anyway. If we direct a heal to me tonight, I can ensure Math gets copped on n4 but it's still a waste. You convinced yourself of strategy and used that to fuel a read.

What is your alban read?

I refuse to agree to a heal being dedicated to you tonight until I know that you're town and I don't want a Cop anywhere but Math. I'm giving you Navy, so I need you to give me this. I'd rather we heal Gamma.

Don't expect anything other than sporadic posting today. Gonna be very busy all day.

On the condition if I die, you don't lynch Math without a guilty on them. Then I am ok with a heal on Gamma.

[Titus]

But it's worth the risk when certain targets threaten to rip apart town cohesion and make victory nigh impossible.

*sigh* Other than not agreeing with you, how is town cohesion being ripped apart?

VOTE: Navy

Math threatens to rip apart town cohesion by merely existing while not being Copped by multiple Cops. As long as Paul, RC, and I are alive, we're probably going to suspect Math. You refuse to lynch them (which I'm whatever about at this point), but then you also oppose dedicating more than paltry resources to confirming their alignment for the benefit of us.

Guess what? Paul is scum.

And if we dedicate the cops, we solve this anyway. If we direct a heal to me tonight, I can ensure Math gets copped on n4 but it's still a waste. You convinced yourself of strategy and used that to fuel a read.

What is your alban read?

I refuse to agree to a heal being dedicated to you tonight until I know that you're town and I don't want a Cop anywhere but Math. I'm giving you Navy, so I need you to give me this. I'd rather we heal Gamma.

Don't expect anything other than sporadic posting today. Gonna be very busy all day.

On the condition if I die, you don't lynch Math without a guilty on them. Then I am ok with a heal on Gamma.

Okay. If Cops are dedicated to Math tonight, then I will agree to this 100%. I give my word. On an Innocent, I'll lynch Paul.

Fine. If we're both alive, we can talk about it. We're in reluctant agreement. I still feel this is a waste but my number 1 tr aside from you lives.

[Titus]

Alban, who is the scum doc? What is your Navy read?

[Titus]

Math if you're not on this after everything you've said about his slot and he flips scum no one is copping you, you're just getting autolynched.

Yeah, this makes me not want to lynch Alban.

[Titus]

alban flips scum, math has spent the game calling him scum but prevented him from being wagoned, alban spent the entire game calling your sibling scum but has been defending them now that they're a real wagon

and that doesn't make you reconsider your position at all? that's called confbias and that's why I'm not taking your mathblade seriously any more than you're taking mine seriously.

Look, you're telling me what alban is saying. He needs to get in here and take stances himself. If he refuses, I would probably lynch him. I'm wanting him to do that.

[Titus]

whoever (RC?) said cops should check cop claims makes sense. it clears two people in one go.
the cop should visit Math in the night. for that, we need him alive.

This is exactly your stance, so I really don't see your problem here. :/

We had a plan. Alban agrees.

Scum whisper in your ear and now you undo it.

[Titus]

And he gets a chance to explain. That's how this works

[Titus]

RC, your attitude is not helping. When you undo a plan based on the fact scum don't want to bus Navy, your burden is already high.

[Titus]

Please freeze deadline.

[Titus]

Hey RC isn't lying just mistaken Vedith

[Titus]

@RC, NJAC has been lurker scum since I got here. There's about zero chance he was doc saved

[Titus]

why is he lurker scum and not lurker town

i mean he fucking replaced out maybe he was busy irl like he said he was

Yup but he hasn't pushed anything. He's not as bad as Navy but he's not town.

[Titus]

okay so titus you have seen slots get busy and not push stuff for days and be town. this is not your first experience with this. you don't get to just determine that your narrative is 100% correct.

Nor do you get to determine my narrative is 100% wrong and yours is 100% right. I am testing alban scum by waiting on him.

[Titus]

HE HAS DONE THAT.

ARE YOU READING HIS POSTS?

And you know that without asking me a single question.
I have already said that I find 6 people scummy.
Now if you were not one of them, maybe I would have gone ahead with your choice.
But both you and Kelvin are scummy for me. At least your slots were. So, I am not gonna listen to your choices even if there is a considerable overlap between our choices.

Who are these 6? Which of the docs is scum?

[Titus]

@alban You suspect the entire Sesq wagon but me? How do I get special treatment? Why haven't you voted Navy?

[Titus]

RC, if I vote alban will you agree to cop Navy if he flips town?

[Titus]

If Alban gets lynched and flips town no one is copping navy, cops are on me. I trust kelvin.

Yeah you see this thing about not working together, give me something.

[Titus]

oh and if you're copping me I get to call the shots.

which means, assuming Alban flips town, not lynching Navy until she's the last scum left. and probably lynching Math tomorrow.

So basically, you want to mislynch alban and call the shots? This is nothing more than a powerplay. Fuck off.

I am now lynching Navy until someone towncases her.

[Titus]

OML
Are we really going to make the mistake made in Mini 1866? Are we really not lynching a guilty?

There is no guilty

[Titus]

So basically, you want to mislynch alban and call the shots? This is nothing more than a powerplay. Fuck off.

this is what you were trying to do but when you do it its totally fine right

No, Titus. You can make a decision whether you want me or Mathblade copped.

I want Navy copped. I want a compromise, not a dictatorship.

Lynching Navy and copping whomever you want is fine too.

[Titus]

Explain to me why you want Navy copped over myself?

Because I want a guilty and you not to engage in a power play.

If you're cleared by anyone, you'll lord it over our heads to try and push a Math mislynch rather than lynch scum in doctors.

[Titus]

@Vedith, explain your Math is scum only if I am comment please. It pings.

[Titus]

@Kelvin

That's a horrible one sided summary. You and RC have threatened and bullied while everytime trying to cut me out of the process. I am willing to lynch any doctor with a case on them I felt made sense. There is confscum in the doctors. We need to find out whothat is. If you think Math is scum, get them talking.

Solving docs is the key, not attacking whomever disagrees.

[Titus]

@K

Everytime I turn around you are talking about how Math and I cannot be together bc you cannot control Math and I. It's an equally valid reason to lynch you and RC. You refuse to let me go through my process, gove reasons beyond strategy, or consider my pov.

[Titus]

@K

Everytime I turn around you are talking about how Math and I cannot be together bc you cannot control Math and I. It's an equally valid reason to lynch you and RC. You refuse to let me go through my process, gove reasons beyond strategy, or consider my pov.

Titus, why Navy > Alban?

Why not Mathblade? Just because you think it's more optimal to lynch a doctor claim or because you townread them?

Navy is an alt avoiding this thread.
I think doc cops and lynches break the game wide open if not solve it.
I was hard tring Math but Vedith freaked me.

[Titus]

There are several logical anf factual fallacies in your counter but yes it is how I feel.

[Titus]

I would answer but driving

[Titus]

There are several logical anf factual fallacies in your counter but yes it is how I feel.

who is this in response to?

Kelvin

[Titus]

@2098 Kelvin Logical errors

When I say the case for what you presented in my opinion was Math was uncontrollable being equally valid, I was referring to the "validity" as in philosphy. If the premises were true (namely uncontrolled buddying means lynch), it would apply to both RC and Math.

If you townread someone, you should give them every tool possible to reach agreement and be open to their cases (which is why I keep asking). If town unites, we cannot lose. But if we feel whatever we do is a win lose proposition, then it's hard to progress. If you TR someone, work at getting their best.

You mention near universal support for lynching in doctors. It's not true. You and RC want to lynch Math who is not a doctor. Second, near universal support for the correct play is a given. If there is guaranteed scum in a pool, solve that pool first.

Now when I said solving the doctor problem would solve the game, I wasn't kidding. On a whole, certain slots have avoided Navy while pushing alban. It creates a suggestion that NJAC and Paul may share an alignment, along with Math and Vedith. This presumes only one scum doc.

If two scum docs, that makes things interesting and deterring cops in docs is offthecharts scummy.

If all three scum are doctors, then scum are not bussing that doctor.

[Titus]

2 more votes

I'm 99.9% sure we can count on RC, so that just leaves the hammer.

Math town flip means I'm on Titus if I'm active tonight. Titus, it also means you might want to cover me if you're active tonight. Cops should probably be on Navy, alban, or RC, but you can also do me, if you really want.

Math scum flip means Docs on Cops, I think. I like Gamma for best bet, but do you, Titus. Cops should probably be on Titus, alban, or Navy. You could also check RC or I, but it seems like a really unlikely bus, so it's definitely not ideals.

I agree with all of this but it's the wrong lynch. We need to solve the doctors, not the cops.

[Titus]

Tbh I'd rather not have navy copped if she's being a lurksack
I feel like if she were scum that would be giving her what she wants

Then cop another unsolved doctor, but we should just be lynching Navy anyway.

Navy needs to be dead before all town must agree on a lynch.

[Titus]

1) Yes, I feel RC is treating you in a manner similar to Math treating me. Agreeing with whatever you want. RC is even being more obnoxious.

2) Yes, sometimes scum do sneak into a townblock. That doesn't mean we stop giving town what they need to communicate. The comminication helps the group vet itself. That's why my way or the highway is dangerous and why I rejected your vote where you felt bullied.

Math is a horrible lynch. That is why it lacks support. You basically shouted people where they said whatever without justifying the read you have convinced yourself of.

Expanding everyone's overall knowledge = finding the scum doctor. Then, look at who followed and who did not. Vote analysis fills in the rest.

Scum aren't going to bus if they can convince someone that all cops with clears are expendable and only check cops

If we have cops with clears in lylo, then the puzzle sorts itself.

If we have 3 clears not overlapping, we know at least 1 must be scum, since there are not 6 town. Then, we figure out which one fails to make sense. If there's a guilty, obviously it's an at least 1 v 1.

[Titus]

2 more votes

I'm 99.9% sure we can count on RC, so that just leaves the hammer.

Math town flip means I'm on Titus if I'm active tonight. Titus, it also means you might want to cover me if you're active tonight. Cops should probably be on Navy, alban, or RC, but you can also do me, if you really want.

Math scum flip means Docs on Cops, I think. I like Gamma for best bet, but do you, Titus. Cops should probably be on Titus, alban, or Navy. You could also check RC or I, but it seems like a really unlikely bus, so it's definitely not ideals.

I agree with all of this but it's the wrong lynch. We need to solve the doctors, not the cops.

No, we need to solve the game. Cops and Docs are not mutually exclusive. And lynching Math helps some players either further solve the Docs or lynch scum.

No. Cops can be all town. Remote but possible.
Lynching Math does zero to solve the game. Nothing. No one thinks I am likely scum. No one's cased Math.

Lynching and copping in docs solves the game. If you feel Vedith Math is a team, you should be 100% on board with this as Vedith as scum hates it.

[Titus]

We solve the game by lynching docs unless there's a scumclaim. I have left open Math buddying me, but the more you try to force a math lynch, the less I will do it.

[Titus]

It tells me nothing and doesn't hunt confirmed scum. Unless you case Math, you're not getting my vote.

[Titus]

And if you mention "optimal strategy", I am straight up ignoring anything else.

[Titus]

Also, I'd like to apologize. I've been in this game just over a week and already have the second-most posts. Hopefully my excessive posting has done some good in this game and will result in a win, because I realize it must be hell for everyone involved.

And just what have you learned?

You've been outshouting everyone else to lynch a slot that's frequently lynched for what? You came in with an agenda and have blocked anything else.

You could have 50000 million posts to me. I'm pissed I cannot test any theories here because you're shouting everyone out and bullying lynches.

I couldn't test alban because you dismantled it right before he proved his alignment.

Town needs all but 1 of us to agree. If you think Navy's town (by refusal to vote, yes), then you NEED me.

Same, I need one of you two to actually agree on a good wagon at a minimum.

[Titus]

...I have been offline and my three are Kelvin Navy Alban.

Just to be clear, the fantasy that you are trying to spin is that all three scum claimed Doctor? And that Mutton, who initially claimed Cop, actually switched his claim to also be Doctor?

The absurdity of this post alone is almost grounds enough for lynching you.

I am not trying to "spin" anything. Those are my scumreads.

Those reads make no sense. Why would Mutton fake to ensure the optimal lynch was always in the scum pool? If Mutton's scum, it makes more sense his buddies are cops than doctors.

[Titus]

Alban, I'd like to hear reads from you.

[Titus]

Also I have been townreading most of titus's posts from what I've seen and I really do sympathize with her viewpoint but i don't see mathblade flipping town here ever while Navy is a wildcard (and probably still scum)

Why on Math?

[Titus]

Also I have been townreading most of titus's posts from what I've seen and I really do sympathize with her viewpoint but i don't see mathblade flipping town here ever while Navy is a wildcard (and probably still scum)

Then help me "bus"

A lot of people are inactive it is really close to deadline and I am not offline as I usually am due to my stomach deciding it was me to worship the throne all day. Apparently the thread has too much shit in it.

Can you give me a third scumread if Kelvin is town?

[Titus]

Also I have been townreading most of titus's posts from what I've seen and I really do sympathize with her viewpoint but i don't see mathblade flipping town here ever while Navy is a wildcard (and probably still scum)

Then help me "bus"

A lot of people are inactive it is really close to deadline and I am not offline as I usually am due to my stomach deciding it was me to worship the throne all day. Apparently the thread has too much shit in it.

Can you give me a third scumread if Kelvin is town?

In the extreme ridiculous case Kelvin is town Vedith would be scum.

Math, I know you've been locked onto Kelvin's play being scummy but in the scenario you present, it likely doesn't fit. He'd be creating a setup where the desired lynch is always in his team. Doesn't make sense.

Why would Vedith be scummy?

[Titus]

I don't think saying help me bus is a scumclaim. I'm still investigating some Vedith things.

What I am 100% worried about is something like RC Vedith Paul. :/

[Titus]

Also I have been townreading most of titus's posts from what I've seen and I really do sympathize with her viewpoint but i don't see mathblade flipping town here ever while Navy is a wildcard (and probably still scum)

Then help me "bus"

A lot of people are inactive it is really close to deadline and I am not offline as I usually am due to my stomach deciding it was me to worship the throne all day. Apparently the thread has too much shit in it.

Can you give me a third scumread if Kelvin is town?

In the extreme ridiculous case Kelvin is town Vedith would be scum.

Math, I know you've been locked onto Kelvin's play being scummy but in the scenario you present, it likely doesn't fit. He'd be creating a setup where the desired lynch is always in his team. Doesn't make sense.

Why would Vedith be scummy?

It isn't so much Vedith scummy it is I townread everyone else more.

Ok, can you say why everyone is town? Particularly RC?

Where do you think cops should investigate?

[Titus]

I don't think saying help me bus is a scumclaim. I'm still investigating some Vedith things.

What I am 100% worried about is something like RC Vedith Paul. :/

i refuse to believe that gamma or creature are killed n1 this game

I think Creature makes the most sense as the N1 kill.

[Titus]

I don't see that but ok.

[Titus]

@alban/giga,

How likely do you think it is RC Kelvin and Math are pulling some wierd gambit like 685?

[Titus]

Are you at least ready to the idea of copping Math so that in case they are town, we don't lose them?

You talking to me? I've been talking about Copping Math forever if we don't lynch them. But because Vedith is stubborn about being directed, I can't put enough faith into Math getting Copped to risk leaving them around.

The only person I'd lynch outside of the cops is Vedith. Refusing to cooperate or suggest alternatives is scummy.

[Titus]

Are you at least ready to the idea of copping Math so that in case they are town, we don't lose them?

You talking to me? I've been talking about Copping Math forever if we don't lynch them. But because Vedith is stubborn about being directed, I can't put enough faith into Math getting Copped to risk leaving them around.

The only person I'd lynch outside of the cops is Vedith. Refusing to cooperate or suggest alternatives is scummy.

I'll assume you mean outside of Docs. I don't agree that those things necessarily make someone scummy though. Either way, I'm not agreeing to lynch an unspent Cop, when we could lynch him later when he brings a result.

Great, so we have an agreement on no cops then. I am getting close to just wanting to policy lynch you or RC

[Titus]

The only strategic choice is doctors. You wanting to lynch in cops for "information" is dumb as we get just as much info on docs with Math alive.

[Titus]

Then why can no one provide a reason beyond spent cop, cleared me?

[Titus]

Then why can no one provide a reason beyond spent cop, cleared me?

Titus, you keep fucking saying this. Do you actually want me to go through my entire fucking ISO and give you every instance of me saying why I subjectively believe that Math is scum? Or did you just mean why can we not give you any reasons that you agree to?

No. Math OMGUSing is just a math reason. Math stretching things is just Math.

We lose my townread. No one townreads Navy. Yet we cannot get her lynched.

[Titus]

Why do I have to compromise when the only things that you'd call a reason boil down to Math is too insane to contain but in PC terms?

[Titus]

The only strategic choice is doctors. You wanting to lynch in cops for "information" is dumb as we get just as much info on docs with Math alive.

You are absolutely fucking right, we get exactly as much information on Docs by lynching Math as we do by lynching a Doc. But lynching a Doc gives us zero definitive information on any Cops, while lynching Math (a Cop) also shrinks our Cop pool, without losing us any PR utility later on. As a group, we

objectively

get a greater amount of information from lynching Math than any Doc. Even if you argue it's redundant information that most people know subjectively, it still results in a net increase in concrete information that people will know objectively. There is no argument in the world that you could possibly produce that would make this statement false.

This is spent cop cleared me.

[Titus]

Like Kelvin you decided eithout talking to everyone that you were going to tunnel Math. Like hell. Then you've engaged in nothing but insults. I considered lynching alban but he obvtowned.

I am open to Vedith but you say no.
I am not open to Gamma but you float that.

[Titus]

Then why can no one provide a reason beyond spent cop, cleared me?

Titus, you keep fucking saying this. Do you actually want me to go through my entire fucking ISO and give you every instance of me saying why I subjectively believe that Math is scum? Or did you just mean why can we not give you any reasons that you agree to?

No. Math OMGUSing is just a math reason. Math stretching things is just Math.

We lose my townread. No one townreads Navy. Yet we cannot get her lynched.

I'm sorry, but I don't give a shit about your goddamn townreads. We can't get Navy lynched because almost everyone else in the game is convinced that Math is far more obvious scum than Navy and therefore a much safer lynch. Just because nobody townreads Navy, doesn't mean that everybody scumreads Navy. Navy isn't the super scummy player here, Math is. If Math is just being Math, then Math is still an excellent policy lynch, because Math's terrible play is just going to drag us down. For everyone but you, Math, and probably the scumteam, a Math lynch is a Win/Win situation. No matter how Math flips, we are in a much better position.

Math has done illogical things but not scummy reads.

If you don't give a shit for my process or my reads, why should I ever help you? This isn't about you. This is a team game. I don't lynch my TRs. Everytime I do without getting any concession it's wrong.

The only theoretical scumteam I have with Math includes Vedith and RC or alban.

You won't give me Vedith and I TR alban. RC isn't happening.

I have tried to engage your reasons. You haven't tried to meet me half way.

[Titus]

titus why do you always ignore my reasoning for reads

this was the same thing for alban in pyp

zzzzzzzz

pedit: yes it is but it's not the only reasoning to lynch math today.

if i were in this game from the start i'd have a much easier time articulating why math is scum because i'd have more than just "gut" and meta reads but from poe alone our lynch pool should be {navy, math, vedith} and two of those slots are cops. math is the scummiest one by play IMO

and

the extra information is a consolation if wrong.

We already know I am town. Math isn't scummy, just anti-town. We cannot afford policy lynches.

I am sympathetic to this.

Look, in the worst case scenario Math scum, and Navy town you need my vote. RC and Kelvin drowning out what you're saying just makes this more impossible

I detest games where one person gets bullied.

[Titus]

The only theoretical scumteam I have with Math includes Vedith and RC or alban.

Why can't it be Mathblade/Navy/Vedith?

Math wouldn't be hawking 3 doc theory.

[Titus]

Why do I have to compromise when the only things that you'd call a reason boil down to Math is too insane to contain but in PC terms?

You have to compromise because otherwise, you are just stonewalling everybody. Like, you aren't just stonewalling me or RC, you're stonewalling everyone on this wagon because you believe you can't be wrong here, even though we're all telling you it looks suspiciously like you are wrong here.

No. You're stonewalling everyone by insisting on a lynch and treating me like human garbage when there's a slot we both agree isn't town.

[Titus]

The only theoretical scumteam I have with Math includes Vedith and RC or alban.

Why can't it be Mathblade/Navy/Vedith?

Math wouldn't be hawking 3 doc theory.

To elaborate, Math would start mucho discrediting cops unless they could 100% guarantee no scum lynch. Not a chance if Navy is a partner.

[Titus]

Like Kelvin you decided eithout talking to everyone that you were going to tunnel Math. Like hell. Then you've engaged in nothing but insults. I considered lynching alban but he obvtowned.

I am open to Vedith but you say no.
I am not open to Gamma but you float that.

What the fuck? When did I float Gamma? I've never expressed any interest in lynching Gamma and I never will until he has a result.

And I decided without talking to everyone, not because it was Math, but because it was the best objective strategic decisions. It was a great move regardless of Math's alignment, Math also happening to be almost definitely be scum is just an added bonus.

It's a horrible strategic move. You know how many games I have won as conftown? Zero. Lynch on town for "info", when we already know that info is terrible.

You've been just attacking anyone who says anything good about me or Math. You have a zero inch give attitude.

[Titus]

Can we agree if we lynch Math I get to pick where cops go in both setups and non compliance is grounds for lynch?

I am literally sick of being spoken down to. So I'll cave if I get something beyond abuse.

[Titus]

If not, then I can't agree to lynch Math because it's gamethrowing

[Titus]

It's a no win proposition. Either this drama keeps on. RC and Kelvin paint me as the bad guy, or I have to call the scumteam every single one. I'm not that good. If I miss, Math lynch and we lose. That's of I get one of Kelvin or RC to be reasonable, which I doubt. So maybe we just lose anyway.