Blitz 21 - Hope plus One ―kibou― [End]

[Scatterplot]

First!

VOTE: Sakura Hana for impersonating the mod with her avatar

--P

[Scatterplot]

Wow I apparently do not remember how to do RVS at all.

PhantomCobalt is town, though, so there's that! I'm not really interested in the talah wagon. (Plotinus finds him vaguely scummy, I think.)

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

What, with talah? Talah won't vote me.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

I think this is jokier than Cobalt would be as scum!

I don't know if I'm willing to extend that to Ankamius yet. Maaaaaaaaaybe.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

I...found Sakura's shot at Luna Fox-style play really scummy and uncanny the last time I experienced it. And as soon as she stopped trying to play that way it became completely obvious she was town.

I guess this is a meta complaint, not a scumread. I haven't decided how far to respect this yet.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

I'm reading Phantom based on tone, RC. I've read most of the games he has played in, and I've reskimmed his ISOs in them today to check on some things.

I need some more time to firm up my read, which requires giving him some space and some room to work in. He is the sort of player that can easily get backed into a corner he doesn't know how to get out of as town. His posting is within tolerance levels and I'm not bothered by what he is doing yet. I also don't think he'll be particularly difficult to catch if he is scum.

--P

[Scatterplot]

I don't remember townreading Klingon in 1750, but I don't remember very much about that week of my life so it might have happened. I think i just wanted to give her space because she was sick and not posting because of being sick and that's a shit reason to lynch someone, especially because i was sick too. Anyway, Klingon was Titus' job to pretend to sort because they had experience together.

--P

[Scatterplot]

Plot, talk to us about your talah scumread?

mostly sheeping hiplop. I felt it was weird the way that talah acknowledges that wisdom is probably reaction testing sakura but then needs an explanation RIGHT NOW before sakura even has time to respond to wisdom's vote. If he thought the rvs naked vote was for reactions, which is a reasonable assumption, and he thought the purpose was to get reactions from sakura, then why was he getting in the way of that?

i have dinner on the stove.

--P

[Scatterplot]

OK, then Ether needs to explain it.

Plot's explanation makes little sense though.

Probably because it needs more time to percolate.

What I have is a townlean and what you're asking for is a fully fledged towncase with a bibliography.

pedit: I could do talah too, but i'm tempted to stay voteparked on sakura until she changes her avatar. We were somewhat serious about our RVS complaint.

--P

[Scatterplot]

@RC: lol

What I have are trends and patterns that look okay to me, and, from his past games, a lot of signs that, regardless of alignment, he's not going to be able to produce a miracle of towniness that will be immediately apparent to all whose gazes fall upon him. He's the default low charisma day 1 lynch in all of his town games.

Why do you care that I'm townreading the low hanging fruit and why is it relevant that my hydra partner (a different one, not Ether), townread a town player she knew well and had played dozens of games with in a different game?

I'm also reluctant to spell out some things ON PAGE FOUR that are just trends right now because I don't want to give out roadmaps to townreadtopia.

He's not "I will bake cookies and mail them to your house if you sign a pledge to vote Phantom's counterwagon" levels of town yet.

I feel like the more I talk about my read on him the more muddy the water is going to get and it'll then be harder to read him. It also feels like you're trying to get me to go out on a limb for him to set me up for something later if I happen to be wrong about him and that worries me.

pedit: but sakuuuuura i can't tell you aparrrrrrt. But okay. Now i don't know if we want to vote talah or ashnard. I think i'll be able to read the other head of Ashnard more easily though so I think I'll wait for him to start posting and:

VOTE: Talah L-3

--P

[Scatterplot]

Find a time where I've ever tried to set someone up in that manner as scum.

I'll wait.

Or explain why I'd see that as tactically advantageous.

I've done it as scum and won using that tactic so I don't see why another person wouldn't. In n1615 I was really really obsessed with everybody else's reads on my buddy and about his wagon and the speed of it and what did it mean when it was slow and what did it mean when his wagon was fast and I spent like 53 pages tunnelling him because i didn't know how to wagon drive yet. And then finally I got him lynched and then I lynched the people who townread him based on associatives and then I won.

And I know that you rely heavily on associatives as town, as do I (though I usually try not to give into the siren song of preflip associatives this early into day 1), and I don't see why you wouldn't incorporate that into your scumgame if possible.

I think my ability to read you isn't going to be improved by reading through your past games because you're spammy and because you're competent enough that it's going to be more subtle markers that I need to look for and I'm going to need to rely on experiential meta. And I don't see why I should bother when I can tell you and Rask apart and I'm confident I'll be able to read ask.

pedit: Anti, Ill miss you if you go but I'll understand if you need to.

Phantom, KT, Rask don't be a dicks to Anti because I have been looking forward to playing with him.

--P

[Scatterplot]

Also I was scum together with KT recently so hopefully I'll be able to read him at some point.

pedit what?

--P

[Scatterplot]

Okay, I'm glad that you've done things as scum. I've done lots of things as scum.

You asked me to explainw hy it would be advantageous to do something. I did.

I do not push mislynches for mislynches sake. That's something that's consistent in my scum meta and it isn't something I'd switch to switch up my meta because it's optimal play pure and simple.

Okay?

Further, I called you out for a bizarre read transition. You gave an inadequate answer and tried to turn it back on me.

We're on page 4. I haven't had time for my reads to transition yet. I have a townlean on somebody. You seem to care an awful lot about it.

Particularly considering you already implied that you wanted to try to mislynch me in a future game after 1750 that gives me very bad feelings about your slot.

I never said this. I don't bring past influences into games like that. All I felt when you vengekilled me was relief that I wouldn't have to read all of those pages after all.

You don't see why?

Would I or wouldn't I, Plot? Am I doing it now?

What are you asking?

Why did you vote the lead wagon when I tried to pressure you?

I voted Sakura because I wanted her to change her avatar. She refused, so I voted Talah who I have a scumlean on instead. It had nothing to do with you.

Aka, you want to take advantage of the fact that Raskol is easily mislynched to try to push a lynch on me without having to try to explain why I'm scummy.

Nope. I have experience with Rask and I can read him. It is 100% not true that he is an easy mislynch. He was stupidlynched in his first newbie game because his IC didn't realise she had to explain what L-1 means to the newbies. I don't think he has any other completed games that I can talk about.

Why are you so frightened that I want to read you by your other head?

Wow I apparently do not remember how to do RVS at all.

PhantomCobalt is town, though, so there's that! I'm not really interested in the talah wagon. (Plotinus finds him vaguely scummy, I think.)

-Ether

This is an absolutely horrible post and remains so.

PC is town because he's jokey, what? Since when are all scum supernatural super serious?

Why did Plot back up that PC read as if he was the one who made it?

Why the fuck do you care so much about the fact that Ether and I came to independent mild townleans on a slot that you either don't know how to read or don't want to pretend to put in the effort of trying to read?

--P

[Scatterplot]

Or I don't want to produce the evidence yet because my read on him is still a work in progress and if I provide the citations right now it's going to make it harder for me to realise if i'm wrong about him. Like clearly i'm trying to figure something out and before the cake's baked you're like hey why is the cake all soggy in the middle.

I'm not frightened at all. I'm vague amused by the fact that you came into this game trying to mudsling my slot considering that we left our last game where you were scum with you trying to assert that you would be able to mislynch me as scum. And then you did exactly what you did in my previous experience with you as scum and then started mudslinging my slot. You want to pick this fight, we'll pick this fight. Have at me, Plotty.

oh, that. I could have mislynched you

in that game

when 8/12 people were suspicious of you, yes. Like if you look at the 12 living players ISOs and skim the tail end of them for what their reads are, their last opinion of of your hydra was that you were scummy, so yes, I did think that, with effort, I could have mislynched you in that game.

I'm asking you to put the belgian waffle mix away and commit to something.

about what though? I lost the thread. I have a townlean on Phantom and a scumlean on Talah and I don't know how to read you so I want to hear more from Rask and either I'll realise that he's town or I won't.

Why do you have a scumlean on Talah, and how do I know if the latter part is true?

Are you reading the thread? I literally just answered that when Wisdom asked me, in 82. Then in 85, I said that I was willing to vote Talah but I was tempted to votepark sakura until she changed her avatar. She said she wasn't going to and I don't have a read on sakura yet so I switched to Talah.

If you look at 94, which was mostly a response to you, you'll see at the end a "pedit" which means that this was in response to something that was said while I was typing the response to you. It starts "but sakuuuuura i can't tell you aparrrrrrt.", this indicates that it was sakura's post that I was responding to in that pedit.

I never said this. I don't bring past influences into games like that. All I felt when you vengekilled me was relief that I wouldn't have to read all of those pages after all.

If you're denying this I will literally deathtunnel you the rest of the game.
You said that you would have easily been able to mislynch me as scum, don't deny it. It's public knowledge that anyone can go into the 1750 thread and read.
I don't think my thought process here is at all out of whack. If you want to change my mind, go substantiate on one of your reads.

I didn't remember it until you elaborated. I didn't say easily. I meant in that game. I'm not going to bring it into a different game. Like you think that I'm somehow mad at you for putting me out of my misery in Miller's Hollow and that now i'm trying to mislynch you. How do you differentiate what i'm doing from scumhunting?

PEDIT AND IN THAT QUOTE THAT YOU ARE QUOTING I WAS CLEARLY TALKING ABOUT IN THAT GAME BASED ON THE THREAD TEMPERATURE IN THAT GAME.

why would the thread temperature of that game carry over to this one?

--P

[Scatterplot]

I'm not trying to lynch you, I'm having a conversation with you. I'm not even voting you. I haven't made a case against you. All I posted was a tiny worry that you might be setting me up for something and you went ballistic because...I expressed town paranoia. ok.


It's not about "because they might be wrong later". It's about "if I say

hey, Phantom, if you write all your posts in green I will townread you but if you write them in red then I will scumread you

and then Phantom starts posting in green, how do I know that he's posting in green because he's town and not because I told him I would give him a cookie if he did it?

It's not that I

can't

substantiate my read on Phantom, it's that I don't want to. If he's wagonned and my read on him strengthens to a point that I care about derailing the wagon then I'll do so in a compelling manner.

I have an early read on him. It's either right or it's not. If it's not, the less I say about why I'm reading him, the soooner I'll realise it and course correct. If it is right, the less I say about it, the stronger it will become and then I'll reach a point of certainty and explain what i'm doing to the rest of the class. Why are you so impatient? Why do you care?

Are you reading the thread? I literally just answered that when Wisdom asked me, in 82. Then in 85, I said that I was willing to vote Talah but I was tempted to votepark sakura until she changed her avatar. She said she wasn't going to and I don't have a read on sakura yet so I switched to Talah.

WHY.
WHY.
WHY.
WHY.
WHY.
WHY.
WHY.

IF YOU CLICK THE LINKS YOU WILL FIND THE ANSWER BECAUSE I EXPLAINED IT. Read post 82.

PEDIT AND IN THAT QUOTE THAT YOU ARE QUOTING I WAS CLEARLY TALKING ABOUT IN THAT GAME BASED ON THE THREAD TEMPERATURE IN THAT GAME.

why would the thread temperature of that game carry over to this one?

I never said that it's a thread temperature thing at all.

Please continue to insert words into my mouth about my stances on things.

That's right, you specifically ignored that I was talking about the thread temperature in that game and quoted it as if I were saying I had a vendetta against you that I would use in future games.

Also, there WERE a few people spouting scumreads on me when you started; namely Antihero and PC (although I'm not sure PC legit scumread me or was just voting)

I'm not even voting you. I am reasonably confident that if your slot is town I will be able to townread your hydra partner eventually. You seem to think that means that I'm going to lynch you after I talk to him, in spite of my having experience with him.

pedit: RC, you asked me about the talah vote, not the sakura vote. and i explained the talah vote and you keep saying i didn't.

Plot, talk to us about your talah scumread?

mostly sheeping hiplop. I felt it was weird the way that talah acknowledges that wisdom is probably reaction testing sakura but then needs an explanation RIGHT NOW before sakura even has time to respond to wisdom's vote. If he thought the rvs naked vote was for reactions, which is a reasonable assumption, and he thought the purpose was to get reactions from sakura, then why was he getting in the way of that?

i have dinner on the stove.

--P

So my problem with talah is that talah got in the way of sakura and wisdom. and my problem with you is that you're getting in the way of me and phantom by being impatient and demanding answers NOW NOW NOW when I will explain my reads when i'm ready. I'm not going to lynch anybody based on unexplained reads, I'm not going to derail a wagon with unexplained reads, but i'm not going to explain reads that are still in progress.

KT I don't understand it either why RC is bringing last game into this especially when I barely remember Miller's Hollow because of how sick I was for the entire duration of the game. It had a 90 page day 1 and I was too sick to read the thread and then I died on night 1 and that was game over town wins because the setup was 2:11 and all I felt when it was over was relieved that I didn't have to catch up on it after all. I'm not salty about that game at all. Good riddance to it.

pedit: actually yeah can we just drop this and not clog up the thread and come back to each other if we need to later on because there are other slots in this game too.

pedit: if this post doesn't clear it up then I don't know what to tell you.

--P

[Scatterplot]

it was, yeah.

I don't even know what we're arguing about but I don't want this to be a 20 page thing.

--P

[Scatterplot]

and Plot you know exactly why we're arguing.

@RC: we're arguing because you're too impatient to let me do my own thing and want to get in my way. You also know very little about how I scumhunt or how I think, and you think that things you dont understand are scummy. You have played with me twice: my very worst town game that maybe i was dead in by the time you replaced in anyway but it was back in June so i don't really remember, and a scum game that I was barely present for, and you even know why I was barely present for that one but you make it out to be scummy that I don't remember large swathes of it.

I don't know if you're scum or if you're town caught in a bad tunnel; I will either evaluate you based on body of work later in the game, or I will read you sooner based on your hydra partner's posting. It is not encouraging that I feel you are twisting my words and misrepresenting me.

You're also under the impression that i'm trying to get you lynched and that when I want to lynch people I do it by not voting them and by not telling other people to vote them but just by responding to their points. If I do decide to lynch you, it will be unmistakable, don't worry!

I know that you said you were only scumreading the Titus head in that game. If you're town and you're worried about that happening again, then you should know that Ether hasn't had a scumgame since 2009 and so she'll probably be pretty easy to read!

pedit: I don't have as many reads as Ranger does but I don't mind that list either. lot of slots i need more time to think about though.

pedit: RC, wisdom was scum together with me recently. so was KT slightly less recently, and hiplop too if August still counts as recently.


Also, you think I'm being too vague about my early reads in this game but:

As a start, do you have a readlist?

Yes

I could be vaguer, is what I'm saying, and I'm sort of regretting not doing so this game. Pretending to be goodmorning is good fun.

--P

[Scatterplot]

Ranger i'm gonna try to guess why you're reading people the way you're reading them, it might help me figure out what I think anyway.

{hiplop, Antihero} - hiplop because of his casual entrance saying that he was top tier? and for scumhunting on page 1? antihero for his song lyrics entrance? (he does that every game with a different song, it's his thing), for naked voting instead of overexplaining his vote? for his lack of self consciousness?

{Scatterplot, Wisdom} - me because i'm town*, wisdom because he's scumhunting and trying to figure people out? for attacking people who townread him instead of accepting the townreads as a gift?

*(this means "i don't feel like ISOing myself" and i don't think i can be objective anyway)

{Trebuchet MS} - for treating the game thread like their hydra pt and for voting talah?

{Mad King Ashnard, PhantomCobalt} - for needing to see more from both of them?

{Ankamius} -for not doing very much yet?

{Sakura Hana} - trusting wisdom's read there?

{KTthecreeper} - for not grokking rvs? for saying something about phantom's meta and then recanting it as rvs? for playing mediator trying to get people to be nice instead of scumhunting? (i'd put "for townreading me too easily"in here but i doubt that's one of your reasons)

{talah} - for butting in between wisdom and sakura, then sheeping wisdom (like everyone else said)?

---

actually, KT, can you explain why you're townreading me this early in the game? And talk to me about Phantom's activity levels and why that would be alignment indicative less than 24 hours into the game. Does Phantom have the exact same schedule every day and the exact same amount of time to play everyday? You say that you're not used to him being

this active

. He posted once, then a few hours later posted 3 times, then again a half hour later, then a few times over the next hour or so. You write:

From what I'm use to as town he pops in and out,

But from what i can see this is what he has done: he writes a couple posts then wanders off and then half an hour, an hour, a couple hours later he comes back and writes another couple posts, in and out in and out.

Can you explain how his behaviour here is different from what you were expecting? How do you feel about his posts?


pedit:

H

I

H

I

P

P

Y

L

O

P

P

Y

<

3

<

3

<

3

--P

[Scatterplot]

@Expedience: I could make up bullshit reasons for my reads that sounded plausible if I wanted to do that. It would be easier than what I'm doing!

Just so you know.

@Phantom, if you do shit that helps scum wincon instead of town wincon (quickhammering, fakeclaiming, etc.) I will lynch you! My read on you hasn't improved since page 4ish. It might go stale.

@Expedience: 1) I have seen him claim scum

with another town player

as town. I have seen him fakeclaim cop as VT. I did look at the werewolf game and it's more complicated than that. The point is that it takes some amount of effort to read him and that includes giving him a little bit of space to do his thing in before just lynching him because he said something sloppy.

There's something he was doing in that werewolf game that he isn't doing here but he might do it later and I'm not going to say what it is to warn him not to do it. I don't understand why you don't understand this.

It's not a binary "he jokes as town and doesn't as scum". A few people made me laugh in the first pages and that gave me happy feelings, and some of them additionally gave me townfeelings and some of them didn't so much. But it's something about his tone that I don't want to elaborate on

right now

but will elaborate on later if I want to. And meanwhile he has barely posted in the last few hours and I still need to see more from him and I'm not going to tell him what he needs to do more of!

3) As I said before, because Ether and I arrived at the same conclusion via different paths.



Like this feels like when I think of something funny, but it's not really half as funny as I think it is, and ten minutes later i'm still laughing about it, and then everyone's asking me what's so funny why are you laughing, and i can barely choke out an answer and if I try to explain then nobody understands why it's funny and you can keep asking me but what's so funny about that and i feel like i've been explaining for 5 pages why i'm cracking up about a pun and why do you even care if it's not funny to you then it's not funny to you just let me laugh in my corner about it.

Like Ranger has Trebuchet MS as her third tier townread so i guess that's a townlean and where i'd probably have put phantom when we first made that post about Phantom after Ether and I were talking about him in AIM and yet we're not spending 5 pages interrogating Ranger about why Trebuchet is in group 3 instead of group 4 or group 2. And that's good because it's a pointless topic to spend 5 pages on. Who the fuck cares whether she has slightly stronger townread on wisdom than on trebuchet. Or we're not asking her why she had such a strong read on hippy loppy when he'd barely posted at that point. And we shouldn't be. It doesn't matter.

It's not a five page topic. I feel like it's weird that it's been turned into one. Nobody has ever cared this much about my page 1-4 reads!

pedit:

Wait when was I not on the Talah wagonVOTE: talah

L-1

Phantom, why do you use white colour tags to announce L-1?

--P

[Scatterplot]

White is almost invisible on mafia silver. I use mafblack on my main but we're using this light blue thing on the hydra.

Try using [

b]

bold

[

/b] tags next time!

pedit: I don't actually, I didn't know they were song lyrics and almost asked you why not song lyrics but then i decided to type those words into youtube just in case and i was surprised!

--P

[Scatterplot]

So, um...

I stiiiiiiiiiiiill haven't wrapped my head around the talah wagon. I realize my other head is one of the people voting him. I still don't get it, and I think it's stupid that he's at -1 right now.

I also think it's silly that we wagoned an Australian who has probably been asleep this whole time to hit the game off. But that's unrelated.

unvote

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

Other opinions: Expedience's quote about PhantomCobalt is totally valid. Wisdom being so helpful is

kind of freaking me out

. But, like, I don't want to burst that bubble by saying this. Helpful is good!

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

I got that. I think it's overstated.

Helpful, like, not spamming the thread in a 15-page TvT, defusing other spats. (I am not actually convinced that us/Ashnard is TvT. I think Ashnard getting paranoid that Plotinus can read Raskol means that we'll try to lynch them is completely ridiculous and just trying to poison the well. But I'm not really interested in getting too deep into this, since, you know, Plotinus can read Raskol. But defusing 1v1 wallfights that no one else is reading is pretty much always something I'll class as helpful.)

Uh, I'm stating the obvious because I previously called you town for something that isn't necessarily as true as I thought it was. (And for that reason, I don't think I can help Antihero.)

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

I think I used to be scumreading Sakura a few hours ago and now I don't remember why. I think she's town now.

I see, inexperience challenged.

heh, get it

...I don't get it.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

Eh.

I'm kind of tired of figuring out what my reasons for everything are and being introspective. Maybe later.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

Eh.

I'm kind of tired of figuring out what my reasons for everything are and being introspective. Maybe later.

-Ether

What the hell is this even supposed to mean.

I think she's town now.

Why?

With that said, I am kind of confused why Wisdom

can't

scumread you.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

Huh? No, my answer to Wisdom's question was me going "Eh, if I try to explain myself I'll just secondguess myself to hell, it doesn't seem worth it." That was me not answering.

My answer to Sakura's question would have to involve a deep rant about my playstyle. I could do it, but it would be stupid.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

Hi, Ashnard!

Sakura, I don't really have an answer! You can call it gut if you want, but it's the kind of gut where if I try to explain it now, I already know that it'll just end in a godforsaken mire of "but I don't REALLY know Sakura's town, this is all very preliminary and there's not much I can really explain when I try to spell it out" and I hate doing that.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

When I scumread you in 1656, that was also a gut read up until I took the time to pull a five-paragraph case out of it. "Gut" means something different for me.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

ETHER ETHER ETHER

what are your reads?

i think you already said them but plz say them again so i dont have to go back

I think you're town. I think Sakura's town. I think Ashnard probably is town. Expedience might be town.

I'm leaning scum on PhantomCobalt by this point. I still don't really trust Wisdom.

I think the talah thing was dumb and his wagon was pointless, which is not the same as thinking he's town.

I don't remember anything about hiplop or Trebuchet, and not a ton about KT. Ranger exists. At this point I went back and checked the playerlist, which is the only thing that reminded me that Ankamius was playing. (I typed this post before he voted and don't much like the vote.)

I am not really happy about these yet, but there you go!

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

It isn't! I changed my mind on Ashnard.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

With that said, that gives me even less reason to worry about anything he says.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

Oh and FYI here's a quote from 1750.

the Elsa head would be easy enough to read because she's a fairly new player

So literally the exact same logic is being used, except they didn't end up being able to push on us because we were obvtown until we ate into most of our towncred trying to figure out why Shos wasn't getting lynched.

I wasn't going to use that to push you. I was going to use it to townread frozen when she didn't do some of the markers i have for her scumgame. But that was my first time playing with Frozen and I'd just spectated her games previously. I have played with Rask I just can't talk about it yet.

I also, in general, find newer players easier to read than experienced ones.

The reason I didn't push...pretty much anybody at all actually...was because of health stuff. But you're cherry picking a very tiny quote from a much longer post of my page 3 reads and early thoughts on the gamestate which I wasn't being cagey about at all hmmmmm. It's almost like I can fake a coherent town thought process as scum if I want to and that's not why i'm being cagey here!

if it weren't for the health stuff, there would have been a lot more of that, eventually consolidating into some sort of coherent push, instead of the "i'm incapable of higher thought" posting that happened instead when I tried to push through the issues I was having and post anyway, and not just in that game but also in the lylo where i was an innocent child, where it was worse.

My towngame and scumgame are almost identical. 99% of the stuff I say as scum is what my townself thinks.

i think you are just pattern matching and not realising how much of what you saw in our last game together was just playstyle. You could look at my last towngame if you like? I think you'll see a lot of the things you've been complaining about in this game. I was Murgatroyd.

Anyway we're putting you on ignore because we do think you are probably town by now!

--P

[Scatterplot]

Ranger

is town enough for now. I like what she's doing and I don't like dislike anything she's doing. I liked 455.

@

Expedience

: Your questions are still useless to me and answering them won't help you read me at all. No, don't argue, because I'm right: even if I were scum here, I could give some bullshit answer that I know players like you would eat right up. But I'm not, and I'm not answering unless it looks like it actually matters.

Antihero

: talk to me about someone of your choice who isn't Spifquis.

Trebuchet MS

I really hate posts like 441 but I always scumread spiffeh so I want to give them a little bit of space.

Wisdom

, with Expedience I feel like it's bad that all of his posts are focused on me and he's not looking around outside his tunnel but he feels kind of like one of those newbies that thinks colouring in the lines slowly and painstakingly is town and colouring in quickly and not filling the shapes in completely is scum and it's a dumb way to approach the game but it reminds me of those players in their first game who think that everything they don't understand is scummy? But he's been here since July and has 11 completed games so maybe I shouldn't be giving him a pass for that because he's not actually that new, huh. The point of this paragraph was to ask you about your read on him but I think I just talked myself into seeing it from your perspective so there's that. Has anyone played with Expedience? Does he know better than to be playing this shabbily or is this par for the course?

Sakura Hana

: I don't know how to read you so I'm delegating that task to other players for now until you have a larger body of work in this thread.

Mad King Ashnard

this looks like a teaching hydra so please put Rask on the phone, he'll learn more by doing than by watching. By the way, another of his games that I was spectating is completed now and he was really obvtown to me there and he was town. Just so you know.

Ankamius

needs to be doing more. I don't care about how often they post. I care that they've not done very much with the 16 posts that they've written when they've here.

hippyloppy

how do you read spiffy because I mislynched him in History thinking that my townself would have been suspicious of him and then I proved myself right for mislynching him in the Odds for the exact same reasons as town.

KTthecreeper

tell me who is scum and why they are scum using a reason that nobody else has used before in this thread about that person.

PhantomCobalt

tell me who is scum and why they are scum using a reason that nobody else has used before in this thread about that person.

talah

we were voting you earlier but we unvoted because the L-1 was too soon. Ether's not feeling your wagonning, I feel like you're trying to be useful (in the bad sense) and that you've got off onto the wrong foot as a result of being wagonned while you were sleeping. That's not snouting around it, that's not wanting to lynch you based on the 3 posts you had at the time we unvoted. I feel okay with you being cautious of me but "Plot is hard to read" is not a good reason to lynch me, sorry!

You've said that my reasoning on stuff is bad but you're ignoring that I'm on purpose explicitly refusing to provide reasoning because doing so will interfere with me getting reads. It's not a permanent refusal it's a temporary refusal and it's really fucking weird that everyone thinks it's scummy when a person is refusing to say "hey I'm going to do something to get a read on you now and the right answer is

hat

and if you say

hat

I will townread you and if you say

egg

I will scumread you and if you say

danceHello

I will null read you okay good now let's get started."

Can we all agree that that would be scummier than what I'm doing? Please? Like I feel like I've stumbled into a newbie game here with all the "town would explain everything clearly and logical and lay it all out in advance telegraphing how to get townread by them so that everybody knows how to behave in order to get townread and scum would be treat the game thread as the scumposting thread" that is floating around in this thread and that's a really strange way to feel when this playerlist is mostly experienced players. You're better than this and I don't believe that these are positions you genuinely hold.

I also feel like a lot of your reads are very self centered, based solely on how people are voting you or not voting you and not really based around how other people are interacting with each other, but that's a humantell not a scumtell. Still, I'd like to see you branch out some here and do more than just scumhunt off your wagon when you're at L-5.

--P

[Scatterplot]

The other side of it is that I'll tend to trust RC's read on you if I get to thinking they're town, and may well sheep if it comes down to it (which it well might in a Blitz game).
What does "useful in the bad sense" mean, exactly?

RC doesn't know how to read me. The only recent game he has with me is one that I was barely playing in because I was sick and his read was based primarily on my hydra partner's posting. Talk to wisdom, hippyloppy, and KT who have all been scum together with me recently instead. They are almost certainly not all scum.

Useful in the bad sense means "scum trying to be useful", the kind of "look at me I am a town aligned player who can win with the town who is usefully moving the game along" posting that is more likely to come from scum than not.

I don't understand this logic as an excuse to not flesh out reads that you're throwing out there in the first place.

I am looking for a very specific thing from Phantom in response to my claiming to townread him and 3 people have spent 6 pages demanding that I say what that specific thing is instead of letting me do my own thing. There is no good reason not to give me space to do my own thing on day 1. If you don't know how to read someone, you give them space until you can see whether the bulk of their in thread actions are benefitting town wincon or scum wincon which is not going to become apparent on day 1.

If there's nothing else to a read than what you've already said, you say that and drop it, not engage in wally posting which does nothing to clarify your position. IMHO.

There is more to the read than what I've said. I will say it when I want to. I cannot control the format of my posts.

Are you addressing me specifically here? Because you started with "Can we all agree..." and finished with "I don't believe your positions are genuine".
Whining about the the thread is kind of pointless wouldn't you agree?
Also you've asked at least two other players in your list above to give a read with a reason so...

you specifically but also the other people that have been doing it.

I'm not whining.

I've asked at least two other players to give a read with a reason and you don't know where I'm going with that, how I will interpret a refusal to give a read, how I will interpret a read, how I will interpret Phantom's failure to follow directions (he gave a reason but it's one I gave previously, not one of his own). And,

once again

you see two players trying to sort each other and you butt in and demand to know what the right answer to the test is before the other player has a chance to respond and that's scummy.

Like I said, wagons are good and the fact that the major wagon of today was my own doesn't exclude me from analysing it, especially when I'm in the fortunate position of knowing exactly what alignment the wagon was on.

Sure, but that's all you've done. I'm asking you to do something else in addition to that.

I'm not sure if you even voted me (I vaguely remember I think Ether unvoting me(?)) but you've certainly been sniffing around and you have direct experience with me-town now so you should be able to come to the table with something more coherent than what you have.

Ether never voted you. I voted you, Ether asked if she could unvote because the L-1 was too soon and she wasn't scumreading you, I said sure and asked if she wanted to vote somebody else instead, she said not yet and unvoted. I'm not sniffing around. I'm scumreading you. I'm also not trying to lynch you yet because I want to spend some more time with day 1 and because I respect my hydra partner's reads.

I have direct experience with youtown in a game that I was too sick to read the thread and whenever I tried I couldn't understand all the words and I had these very brief moments of almostclarity where I could sort of muddle together a post but I was understanding very little of what I was reading and you showed me how much I was misreading (And it really was misreading, not misrepping) and I cried in real life because I'd done my best and it wasn't good enough and trying to think was like trying to light a fire with wet matches.

I was actually downplaying how sick I was in that game by quite a bit, even hiding it from my girlfriend like a cat that doesn't want to be taken to the vet. I'm getting better though.

So I don't remember much about that game, I thought you seemed townish when I was paying attention but I knew your alignment already there.

So I have several scum-tickles coming from your direction and am not really inclined to think better of it when you've just posted another bunch of words at me which sort of loop around themselves and don't address my basic problem which is - why did you think I was scum based on that initial interaction with Wisdom?

Scumreading me for my communication style is bad because it's something I cannot help.

I had no idea that's what your basic problem was. My basic problem was that you got in between two players who were trying to sort each other instead of letting them sort each other. You did it with Wisdom and Sakura. You did it with me and Phantom. You're kinda doing it with me and RC too.

This is the third time I'm being asked this question and I'm just going to quote where I answered it the first time:

Plot, talk to us about your talah scumread?

mostly sheeping hiplop. I felt it was weird the way that

talah acknowledges that wisdom is probably reaction testing sakura but then needs an explanation RIGHT NOW before sakura even has time to respond to wisdom's vote

. If he thought the rvs naked vote was for reactions, which is a reasonable assumption, and he thought the purpose was to get reactions from sakura, then

why was he getting in the way of that

?

i have dinner on the stove.

--P

--P

[Scatterplot]

Sorry Plotty, but

we actually shot you not because of anything you said

but because both myself and FA agreed that Titus wouldn't have been picking a fight with us all game if she were town, and that the probable reason for her decision to ask about forming a wagon on me was that she wanted me to OMGUS vote her to reduce pressure on Shos.

This is the player you've decided to sheep because you think they can read me. They can't. They can read Titus.

--P

[Scatterplot]

ok. Still not fully happy with you, especially the "i'm being scumread for the wrong reasons" bit, but i'm going to give you an olive branch and some space to get your head into the game like I've been asking people to do for me.

I'm less happy with burden of profficiencying the mad king because I know that I'm town and if they do mislynch me then the right response isn't to turbolynch them because they had a bad day 1 read. I've never seen a 1v1 go well for the town outside of a counterclaim scenario.

RC's reads were good in Miller's Hollow. He was right about shos and about Titus and the setup was 2:11 and he was a vengeful so that was great. Night 1 Town win, Plotinus doesn't have to read 90 pages after all, thank fuck, game over, yay, everybody is happy.

RC's reads were okay in the first micro I modded? He found one town read he could trust and they worked well together but he had incorrect scumreads too in that game. As a gesture of good will towards him I won't discuss the second micro I modded. The point though is that we all have games where we're on fire and our reads are great and people just need to sheep us to victory but we get nightkilled early and spend days yelling I DIED FOR A REASON, but that's not most of our reads in most of our games unless you scumread literally everybody and then claim to have been right afterward. We all have games where mafia is hard and everything sucks and we townread scumbag after scumbag and can't figure out why our scumreads keep getting nightkilled and in most people's games, most of the time, their reads are average at best.

I respect him as a player but he's seeing my towngame for the very first time and he doesn't know what to make of it yet and so he's wrong about me and he doesn't feel like doing the research to learn that I'm always like this.

But chain lynching any two players based on day 1 reads is atrocious. We're not doing that to any group of people no matter how well they think they can read each other.

--P

[Scatterplot]

So everyone I just want to let you know how you should look at the game. You should think everyone is scum in till they have done something that proves that they are town in till that point they are scum no matter what they're role PM says

ok guys just remember everyone is guilty intill proven innocent so rn everyone is guilty regardless of role

yeah, no.

--P

yeah, no.

VOTE: KT

--P

[Scatterplot]

Thanks, spiffeh

Thats how this game should work *sigh* you know what I'm working on my catchup see you when I'm done

This is an argument for mafia discussion, but briefly 10 players in this game are town and finding them and removing them from your suspect pool is an important task. You can always re-evaluate later. If you approach everyone with a hammer they'll all start looking like nails is what i'm saying.

But what pinged me is that you took almost the exact same stance last time you were scum.


Please do continue your catchup, I'm looking forward to reading it and did not mean to interrupt. I will have more to say when you're done, I'm sure.

--P

[Scatterplot]

I wasn't being sarcastic about looking forward to that catchup; I taught him something about how to be scum in history mafia and I like to think I'd recognise the things I taught him if I saw them again.

He didn't replace out of history when he was scared of dwlee being able to read him, but we had daytalk and I could troubleshoot with him. Scum don't have daytalk in this game, so there's no one to help him this time. I don't think the replaceout is alignment indicative though if he's sick.


pedit: get well soon, KT. I am not scumreading you for inactivity. Your replacement will get a fair shot, don't worry.

--P

[Scatterplot]

hey fire, how's it feel replacing into a scumslot?

--

No one has anything to say about me retracting my scumread on Plot?

it confuses me lol

^

--

I have more to say (about kt/talah) but holding it for now.

--

Plot head is v/la until Sunday. Will still try to post. health stuff + family stuff + etc.

--P

[Scatterplot]

not afk. not too v/la to vote. will be around but health stuff affects language. would vote talah, yes. want talk with ether.

game state feels very poised. dont think poised means both kt talah scum. 2 leading wagons on scum = scum panic not scum poised. numbers mafia, scumwanderer and scumbbt, gamestate wasn't poised, was scrambly. gameboy mafia that wgeurts modded. same thing with randommidget and davsto and ffery/gif hydra. multiple scum going down = mad scramble, chickens with heads cut off the ship is sinking crabs in a bucket. not poised frozen waiting which way will the wind blow.

not both scum kt/talah. only one. think is talah. Ether asleep.

why am i doing this i have literally never looked back and said boy am i glad i wrote that incoherent post when i wasn't feeling good because i thought the game needed me.

--P

[Scatterplot]

numbers. wanderer and bbt. starts around hereish. backstory: no kill because hit bulletproof, bbt roleblocked by town roleblocker, wanderer did the kill, goon wanderer trying to save encryptor bbt http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p7261641

gameboy. started around here i think. dav fakeclaimed vig, sound of silence was being suspected. random midget tried to derail one of their wagons by gladiating himself with townfirebringer. got lynched, dav nightkilled his scumbuddy, then dav went down too. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=750


multiple scum members in trouble = mad panicky scramble not...poised and afraid to move and afraid to touch anything lest everything go wrong.

I wish i could tell if i was making sense.

--P

[Scatterplot]

oh well. i'll try to talk through ether then.

--P

[Scatterplot]

UNVOTE: Firebringer

been talking with ether. even with rc tunnelling us, we are not an easy target to mislynch and KT would not win in a fight with me regardless of our respective alignments.

I droped my vote on phantom because I think plot is a bigger threat as scum.

this is healthy paranoia.

ether says rereading the thread is what happens when you don't have a good handle on the game, so he was already at risk for replacing out, and probably realised it was too much to take in with his illness once he got past the rvs posts and hit the walls.

I wish KT had stayed long enough to finish his catchup because i think i could have read him based on that, but these few maybetown signs that we've seen mean that we are not ready for this day to end with a KT lynch.

pedit: VOTE: Expedience L-5

we've been reading together and sooooo many notes to self collected about expedience.

--P

[Scatterplot]

in history, KT attacked scorpious, a player he had a better chance of mislynching, while bbt/I attacked harder targets. I think scumKT sticks with players he can win a fight against. he'd hammer me if given opportunity but I don't think he'd slink onto my wagon and expect to go unnoticed.

Ether says hi and she'll be with you shortly.

--P

[Scatterplot]

Ether says hi and she'll be with you shortly.

True. Hi! I am still about five pages behind, and I'm still processing the things that I have read, but being around seemed like a polite thing to do.

I think Firebringer is probably town, as Plotinus has noted. Talah continues to be just completely off my radar. Nothing about his wagon has actually sunk in for me at all. I don't think it's bad, I don't think it's good, it's just flat-out boring to me. I think I thought he did townish things but I will get around to remembering what they are and whether they matter later. Ankamius is town, too, by the way.

PhantomCobalt is also a good bet for scum.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

we are not an easy target to mislynch

Pfft I could have if I wanted to.

KT could not have. If you're town, scumKT would know that sheeping you was risky: both you and I could have noticed and turned on him. If you're scum together, I expect you'd have done what I did with him: tell him to pick on someone he stands a chance against, while you go after someone else. Regardless of your alignment, scumKT might hammer me but he doesn't join the wagon as soon as he did and the reason he gave was his own.

In history, after RVS was over, he voted his nemesis, 14 year old dwlee, then he voted scorpious and aristophanes. He did not vote Titus/Silverwolf, or Metal Sonic.

--P

[Scatterplot]

Uh, in the sense that we talked before, yes. In the sense that I told them what I was going to post, no. I don't even remember their reads off the top of my head, honestly, even my own are still a blur.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

I should really ISO talah afterward, I'm getting this sense that what I'm doing is giving me a bad view of what

isn't

there and maybe that's coloring my--

Ah. Okay, I can work with that too.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

I think KT is scum.

He has mentioned my town meta 5 times, in d1. Why? You really can't be wrong about meta. You can say "on my home-site Phantom is never this active as town", and that statement can be perfectly valid. I can't change my past games in any way, and he can say shit like that about him. KT is playing it safe so he isn't attacked and shown the spotlight.

And while we're on the topic of avoiding the spotlight, why not add in the fact that KT just joined the now largest wagon?

VOTE: KT

Since PhantomCobalt reminded me that he existed, I just wanted to take a second to quote this.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

Sorry about that! The blitzy post-storm completely threw me off; I spent yesterday trying not to think about this game because my brain hit me with depression every time I tried to focus on it.

Today I figured out that if I read the game on a 3DS, I can trick myself into pressing forward because of the novelty, long enough to stop feeling guilty and get my focus back. This is an actual thing that happened. ETHER'S BRAIN, ladies and gentlemen.

Since things have slowed down, I should be okay once I'm properly settled in.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

anti did you understand what i was trying incoherently to say about numbers earlier on page 29? it's ok if not, it's just you where there so i thought maybe.

--P

[Scatterplot]

What's talah's towngame like?

Ankamius also called PhantomCobalt on that awful,

awful

vote.

I'm saying this more to remind the thread of that thing that I just quoted than to talk about Ankamius himself. This isn't my main reason for townreading him, although I do tend to nod along to the things he's said.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

Um...I'm probably not going to process that link in any meaningful way, not in time to make use of it.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

1.)

I think Firebringer is probably town, as Plotinus has noted. Talah continues to be just completely off my radar. Nothing about his wagon has actually sunk in for me at all. I don't think it's bad, I don't think it's good, it's just flat-out boring to me. I think I thought he did townish things but I will get around to remembering what they are and whether they matter later. Ankamius is town, too, by the way.

Hydra dissonance here, why am I town now?

because of the points I mentioned recently about KT. Not dissonance, actually. Ether and I spent a long time reading the thread together yesterday and I liked her observations about KT and I started to see him in a new light as a result. We're in agreement about your slot at the moment. You not townreading Anti is worrying since you seem to know why everyone else is townreading him here.

2.)

Ocean acknowledges that the game moving too fast is a reason a person might not be posting much. He does not acknowledge that 35 pages in 2 real life days is a very fast pace. He notes that she's been talking in site chat as if that means anything at all. Reading a mafia game and scumhunting takes a lot more mental effort that quoting song lyrics in site chat does. When I'm feeling tired, I goof off in site chat, and being able to goof off in site chat does not mean I am capable of responding to game posts. She's also sick.

3.)

I was not buddying Ranger in 166, I was scumhunting her. I wanted to try to understand where she was coming from with her reads. Also, arguing that I should just dismiss her like everyone else does is insulting. Why shouldn't I take everybody seriously? If there's anything that modding games has taught me, it's the players that everybody's ignoring are the ones to pay attention to.

4.)

Tell me more about the top secret mafia theory invention patented by Plotinus that is the OMGUS. Ocean, you have either severely misunderstood what I was saying in that PT or you are misrepresenting me.

@hippyloppy and Anti,

he's talking about how in Butterfly we lynched All Alone because we rolecopped them and learned they were a PR and also because they called the scumteam early with preflip associatives, so I was quick to tell them that preflip associatives were bad mafia theory.

This is not something that happens in every game, because in most games people don't call the scumteam on day 1, and even if it were it is not something you can look for on day 1 unless you know who the scumteam is, and I haven't done it anyway. Nobody has proposed a scumteam with myself on it to my knowledge except maybe Mad King but I was ignoring him.

5.)

Ocean, I am worried that going onto the offense directly on replacing in would, you hope, make it look like any return attacks against you were just OMGUS, especially with you bringing up your, to put it charitably, misunderstanding, of what happened with All Alone in Butterfly.

Ocean

: Plot attacks people who are right when they are scum. (there is a kernel of truth to this but it is is not always true and is not as simplistic as he's making it out to be)

Ocean

: Ether is scum because psychological stuff that I pushed her on when I was scum against her last time.

Scatterplot

: *makes any attack at all in response to this on Ocean*

Ocean

: see, it's just like I said, Plot is just OMGUSing like they do when they're scum.

You're pre-emptively setting up a situation in which you can paint me as looking bad for any response I make to your case and that is scummy.

6.)

None of Plotinus's scumreads are dangerous or against-the-grain or give me any new insights into any other player. They are all safe and cautious.

This is not how I usually play as scum.

Spiffeh

, did you see anything like this at all from me in History?

hiplop & anti

, did I play like this in Butterfly?

Ankamius

, when I replaced into a literally unwinnable situation in Hitchcock, was this how I played? In that game I was in a 1v1 so I couldn't choose who my target was but I felt I made insightful arguments against them anyway.

--P

[Scatterplot]

I am still okay with the Expedience wagon!

OceanWind is wrong about me, but he's wrong in ways that he genuinely believes and that his own experiences have given him every reason to believe. (Well, except the Mutant bit. But I don't think he misinterpreted that maliciously, either.) Even if he's scum, I think he replaced into this game thinking his case was accurate. When he's online, could he let me know?

...Wisdom's townread on me is kind of bugging me, actually. Based on Chosen, I get why he has it, I've got no complaints there. I am less impressed that he did absolutely nothing about it while we were at -2, and has only ever used it to yell ineffectively at tunnelers. It just feels like a prop.

The main thing that's making me hesitate on Wisdom was a throwaway scumteam, in 372. It was targetting the weakest links so blatantly that it seemed more likely to come from town, especially since tried similar as town in Chosen early on and wound up PoEing everyone but two relatively weaker players.

But, uh, actually I do think Phantom and Expedience are scum. I'm...not sure if that makes this better or worse.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

Hey, Phantom. What do you think about Expedience?

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

Why would Ether scumreading you be a scumclaim, Ocean?

If you wanted to scumhunt Ranger, you'd be asking her for the reasons, not supplying them yourself. I'd have more convinced if you said you were allowing Ranger to scumhunt you and see that you are town. If Ranger is mafia and you give good reasons for her reads, it's easy for her to agree or say that you are accurate even if she had no good reason for the reads in the first place.

You don't understand how I approach the game very well then. This isn't how Ranger responded to my post. She engaged with me, she pointed out where I went wrong in my guesses about her reads, her answers showed me that she wasn't just agreeing passively that I got everything right but that was there depth behind her naked readslists, that she could have backed up any of those reads in detail if she wanted to. I got a lot more out of trying to guess her reasons and her correcting me than I would have got out of just demanding explanations from her. Also, when I was an innocent child, I posted this "readslist"

Spoiler: readslist

I have:

• 2 townreads
  
• 2 townleans
  
• 2 people that I want to see wagonned
  
• 1 current wagon that i'm happy with
  
• 1 current wagon that i'm indifferent to.
  
• 3 people that I need more time to think about and a suspicion that 1-2 scum are in this group
  
• 3 people that I think would be easy mislynches if they're town but could easily be scum. (this doesn't overlap much with the above group)
  
• 2 people whose playstyles I don't think I understand very well yet and some evidence that this is affecting my read on them.
  
• 1 awesome hydra partner

~Murgatroyd

I got a lot more out of other people trying to guess which names were in which category than I got out of people demanding names (though in retrospect it was mostly the scumteam that wouldn't let it go and kept pressing me to give out names). Doing it in reverse here was useful to me. It wasn't busywork. Both Ranger and I got something out of it.

For a player like you who is good at persuading people who are townreading you,

but are bad at getting people off your back when they are convinced you are mafia

, your optimal move when someone correctly nails you would be to push their lynch.

????

If anything, I've been working on

not

dismantling cases against me, as both alignments, because as scum it prevents the "why are you still alive" problem, or in some setups the "crosskilled on night 1" problem, and as town it helps me to live to the stages of the game where I'm more useful.

If I was right about you being scum, I fully expected an omgus from you.

How are you interpretting the lack of one, then?

But my case was more about how you were scumreading Expedience, KTthecreeper, and Talah and how that was scummy based on your past games.

Provide citations of me exclusively going after low hanging fruit as scum in past games.

This is the most absurd interpretation of my post. I posted the link about Ether to show Ether talking about how she hates being scum.

Well, it bothered me. It didn't bother Ether, though, and I'll trust her on that.

Please post what these observations are in detail. If you spent such a long time on it, you should be able to do this.

Mod, do I have permission to quote a block of text from skype?

I can't allow this, sorry.

Summarising hours and hours of AIM logs is not an easy task. Today alone (just counting from when I restarted aim this afternoon, so missing the morning conversation), the word count is above 2000. I am not going to do this for all of our logs because it's busywork and i don't have time for it. Also, I don't know if the mod allows even in a summary. Doing so would confirm our slot as town, and I haven't had a completed towngame that I wasn't an innocent child or mason in since August.

@Mod: would a paraphrase of chat logs also be disallowed?

We currently think [expedience/phantom/???], though. Phantom didn't do the towntell in response to being townread that I was hoping for.

Plotinus had no choice then. Several other players were confirmed town. So, instead of attacking stronger players, you think they'd have attacked confirmed townies?

They were confirmed by own night actions. I did mess up the nightkill due to not understanding role interactions, but if I had killed somebody else then I would have been in a different 1v1. But the point is not who I went after in that specific game, but the manner in which I went after them, and the points I brought up against them. If I were the sort of player who had so much difficulty playing as scum that I could only blend into the background and go after easy targets, I would not be the sort of player who attacked nacho from the angles I attacked him, in a situation where I was placed at L-1 before I woke up and I had to talk people into unvoting before nacho could awaken (and even if I successfully lynched him that day everybody else was confirmed town, so I could have just conceded and nobody would have thought worse of me.)

--P

[Scatterplot]

Ankamius, do you tend to read the games you mod? (Ether doesn't, I usually do but sometimes I skim). We noticed that you recently modded open 617 in which Expedience and Phantom were playing on opposing scum teams.

--P

[Scatterplot]

Fair enough, thanks. (That game was also multiball which means genuine scumhunting.)

That's a good point about activity levels. It's easier to play a strong game, as either alignment really, when the game isn't getting 36 pages in 3 real life days. As town it's a lot to absorb and process and as scum it's harder to take control of the town.

--P

[Scatterplot]

I'm here.

Anything you ask for with a reads explanation is going to be either slow and vague or non-existent, though. I'm just...not there yet. We have a tiny, sparse hydra PT that only Plotinus posts in, and a ton of AIM logs that are mostly just throwing vague thoughts back and forth.

But looking back, we said the following things about KT:
KT's 448 felt town, Phantom's vote on KT was (AND STILL IS) completely awful, his replace-out was obviously not scummy in any way shape or form and Expedience's vote was bad too.

The whole section on KT moving their vote to us doesn't feel as strong as it did at the time, since we were the leading wagon and I don't think I processed that during the catch-up. But eh.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

And...you said a lot of nice things about my play in Mutant, but they aren't right.

It's like...philosophers have this question about whether a colorblind person can ever really understand the color red. And Mutant is like that. My scumdar doesn't click on automatically. It doesn't matter that I was town, all of the systems that mattered to me were offline and I couldn't get to them and I was just going through the motions hoping they'd come back. The questions weren't helping. The catchup wasn't helping. I looked like I had reasons, but they were shallow and I knew it and I had no idea what was really happening around me and that game was a mercifully short reminder that I go from 0 to all-encompassing self-loathing in about thirty seconds flat. I

was

avoiding the game, it just wasn't on a time scale anyone could see. I was offline when BRantz bombed me because of how badly I didn't want to think about Mutant, and only saw it in the morning. Later in the morning than I normally wake up.

And that's a game where I had just replaced in. I had absolutely no good reason to hate myself for not psychically knowing who the scum were at that point, but I did it anyway.

Mutant isn't something I have any desire to repeat. Fortunately, I don't have to.

Here, for this game, um...well, I'm seeing a lot of colors! I know it doesn't look that way from the outside, but they're there. I'm not sure what they all mean yet. My scumdar isn't in full order yet, I can't articulate everything, but articulating things isn't really what a scumdar is

for

. I'm so much closer than I ever was in Mutant.

I'm not sufficiently obsessed with this game, I'm not where I want to be yet, but I also don't hate myself. I can fix this. There is a reasonable chance that everything is going to be okay!

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

I think you're town. Antihero's town. Hiplop feels town for admitting to Plotinus that he couldn't understand them, even though what they were getting at seems obvious to me, um...I think other people are townreading hiplop for other things but that's the only thing that ever left an impression on me.

I'm just going to run with the vague townfeels for Firebringer thing for now, that's the best I can do.

I...think Sakura's town but I think I could be missing something? I don't know her scumgame. I know I find her kind of annoying, which was also true for her towngame in 1656, but kind of less pronounced here, but I think it's more likely to come from her as town.

Wisdom feels off. I don't actually have any clue how to read him and I am pretty sure I got lucky last time, but still.

Despite never feeling the talah wagon based on my actual catch-up, Plotinus did point out that talah was a lot less flaily when he got strung up as town in Mini 1742. He could be scum? There is nothing scummy about OceanWind's attack on me, but I can't read him until I pull him off. Scum or town, he believed this before he got his role.

Ranger is lurking.

Expedience and Phantom are my best bets for scum.

Trebuchet is completely under my radar. It's weird that Raskol isn't talking in the Ashnard hydra, buuuuuuuuuuut.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

Wisdom feels off. I don't actually have any clue how to read him and I am pretty sure I got lucky last time, but still.

Getting lucky in this case involved townreading him, not scumreading him. I've seen him as scum in a blitz game I modded, but that just makes me less confident about my ability to read him. He did some really obvious things there to defend his scumbuddy, but without those markers I'm pretty sure I'd have had nothing on him, and it's not like he always consistently protects scumbuddies.

(As Plotinus mentioned, I tend to only skim games I'm modding, so this is a bit shallow.)

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

I don't remember anything Ranger has said.

I mean. I don't remember a lot of things right now. But still.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

sakura is busy in the scum PT, be patient

@ALL THE SEs: Fake townslip or real townslip?

--P

[Scatterplot]

on a more serious note i can't really remember much that sakura's posted. it is a surprise that she has over 100 posts.

@spiffeh i don't know he's felt like a voice of reason this game and his posting hasn't bothered me but we've only played once before. he's not my preferred lynch but i don't know if i feel strongly enough about him to fight it either.

I just don't know.

@anti that post wasn't entirely serious.

--P

[Scatterplot]

*scrolls up in aim*

my lynch pool, as of a couple hours ago, don't think it's changed so much since then, in order of how much i want the lynch: phantom, expedience, fire, sakura, ocean, ranger. something like that

is a bigger pool than i'd like. towards the end my read is more zigzaggy and reluctant.

I wish there was someone i felt strongly enough to strongarm a lynch because i've been waiting for a town game to lynch somebody with cute animal pictures but i'd probably be really sad if i were wrong about phantom and if he's town.

--P

[Scatterplot]

i kind of like fire's latest posting :/

--P

[Scatterplot]

No goddammit stay. Join me in my misery.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

Also I haven't actually read the last couple pages yet. I probably don't have a strong opinion about them, but still.

I keep trying to post this disclaimer and then there's a new post that the Post Review page wants me to see.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

Phantom is still my strongest scumread but i'd be heartbroken if i lynched him and he was town. but the lack of unselfconscious scumhunting from that slot is really bothering me.

I like Ank. I'm not feeling Wisdom wagon. there's a bunch of slots i just want to give a free pass for day 1 because they'll be easier to figure out later.

i guess: phantom, expedience, sakura, ranger

i know Anti, I agree even, but he just seems townish. :/ I hate deadline scrambling and blitz seems to be all deadline scrambling all time to me.

--P

[Scatterplot]

With Ranger I felt like I clicked with her earlier and could see where she was coming from I just...needed to see more and haven't seen it.

she's not low hanging fruit at all though. she's not incompetent. she's just...not transparent.

I associate low hanging fruit with VIs and she's not that.

sometimes the VIs are scum though.

--P

[Scatterplot]

i'd rather let her have another day phase or so though. she was at the tail end of a much larger lynch pool and when i removed names from it, it looked like i felt more strongly about her than i do.

--P

[Scatterplot]

she does her own thing, yeah. and she's not transparent and people associate transparency with town which i don't really get fully because i think sometimes it's easier to get reads when you're being a bit cagey. And I guess if you play in the sort of town just lynches whatever it doesn't understand then she would be low hanging fruit there but I think if people are trying to understand where people are coming from and giving people space to towntell or not then she wouldn't be low hanging fruit at all.

She's also a strong player, I thought she played very similarly in Mafiaception as scum to how she plays as town in other games. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

--P

[Scatterplot]

idk i tried to put my null reads into my lynchpool because deadline scramble gotta compromise and i'm back down to where i started: phantom, expedience, maaaaybe sakura but sakura was closer to the end of the larger pool as well and I'd be fine with giving her another day phase to see what she does with it.

and it's 1:30am and I can't stay up longer.

VOTE: Phantom L-5

--P

[Scatterplot]

My reads are lined up with Plotinus...fairly well. I like a Phantom lynch and I will be around, staring helplessly into my computer screen.

I wouldn't have minded lynching Wisdom but honestly if something had happened to change that recently I would have no idea. But I guess that's me right now, so whatever. I stiiiiiiiiiiiiiill like Phantom and Expedience better. I think I've just been tuning everything Firebringer's actually said out.

Pieguyn or someone please bump the thread so I can more effectively yell at OceanWind.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

OceanWind has requested replacement. The deadline will be frozen at 1 day until a replacement is found.

Goddammit. You can reread overnight, that's only like 8 hours away if you come back. You can skip this bit. This bit we only have to do at...well, every single deadline. But still. Aren't you from...I don't know, nowhere else has the standard Mafiascum pacing, shouldn't you be used to this?

Damn you. Get back here.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

Meh.

I'm not even townreading him. I've irrationally decided that sorting him is Something That I Must Do For Myself. (I don't count this as crumbling under pressure, though, since he wasn't actually under pressure. I don't really know what I think it says about his alignment.)

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

Okay, so I was going to ask for meta advice on Sakura, since people keep citing that and theirs is probably stronger than mine. (Incidentally, I did read about half of the ISO of the Luna Fox scumgame Trebuchet linked to early on. It...doesn't really feel like here to me. I'm not sure what similarities he was trying to point out.)

But actually, Firebringer's selfhammer makes me think that Sakura is probably town anyway? She wasn't on the wagon yet, as soon as she came back while he was at -1 it was obvious that either she was going to hammer him or he was gonna hammer himself. I think it's meaningful that he pre-empted her?

Expedience and PhantomCobalt also look better for Firebringer's flip, and that flip also makes me reasonably sure that OceanWind's replace-out was town. Antihero is town, obviously. Plotinus thinks Ranger and hiplop are town, I'm trusting them on that.

I thought Ankamius was town yesterday. I can see where he was coming from, and the gamestate paranoia still feels town to me, even if it was wrong.

...

...........and I just clicked the link in his signature and realized that he was scum there and Antihero literally said this at one point.

Okay. Ankamius, Wisdom, Ashnard and Trebuchet are left, then.

(Incidentally, none of those four were on the Firebringer wagon at the time that he made post 1157. Which...feels kind of like a signal to me? I'm not sure how comfortable I am reading into that, but I'm throwing it out there.)

I'd like to speak to Raskol, if possible! He is my brother in having spent Day 1 getting carried by his other head while having no clue what the hell was going on. As a symbol of my goodwill, we can even have this conversation while Plotinus is asleep. That shouldn't be too long, it's almost 2 in the morning over there. I don't know what this conversation will actually be about yet, but that's okay.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

Also Sakura checking in close to deadline but not hammering is scummy af

~Spiffy

What were you expecting her to do as scum at that point, exactly? She or Firebringer was getting lynched, that was it.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

If Sakura is scum, then the upside is she gets to be on the Firebringer lynch, for people who care about that later down the line.

If she's town, then selfhammering cuts that off.

(Plus, you know, the whole counterwagon thing in the first place, although I'm saying that without any specifics and did not really reread that bit overnight and am not going to be in any shape to back this up while we're in full blitz mode.)

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

PhantomCobalt's weird. Nothing Plotinus predicted he'd do as scum has come to light, but he hasn't really done much of

anything

, but his track record on Firebringer and the fact that he's the person KT mentioned the most still make me think he's probably town. Plotinus said KT mostly avoided interacting with scum when they were scum together, which...is hard to read into when KT has so few posts, but Phantom was ahead of everyone else there.

You can talk to me about Sakura if you want. I am probably not going to vote her, but I'll hear you out.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

Maybe. It's what I've got. I could try to look on Hypixel, I guess. (But in practice I probably won't, they probably don't even have ISOs.)

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

Hey, Ashnard! I'm still looking for Raskol. Could you please ask him to get on the line? Plotinus is still awake, but it's just a matter of time.

For what it's worth, Plotinus also mixed up the replacements at one point overnight.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

Plotinus and I are actually buying Ashnard's line about bussing.

I realize that nobody is listening to a word I say and anytime I happen to be right about something it's just scum having inside information because I couldn't possibly believe my own reasons and whine whine whine, but there you go.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

Also,

vote: Wisdom

.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

hi Roman!

--Greco

[Scatterplot]

thats not what im saying, anti. i'm saying that Ashnard specifically would not have tried to derail the kt wagon if he were scum. he would have bussed him and been done with it.

My main scumreads are all off the wagon actually, which is statistically unlikely. Phantom looks worst on the wagon, though.

--p

[Scatterplot]

Actually, I don't think Firebringer was bussed. Or at least not persistently or before the last minute; I know Wisdom spent at least some time on Firebringer and moved off.

Hi, Gorkington! I basically did not give a shit for most of Day 1 and let Plotinus do all the work and the few reads I did have from that are vestigial and blurry and I've pretty much ditched all of them anyway, so we kind of have that in common. We can talk now, if you want!

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

Literally THE SOLE EXCEPTION to that rule is in 1739x, where I was considered confirmed scum and was pushing on someone that I believed was going to flip scum (and was right).

I don't defend my partners. I bus them or I ignore them.

My style isn't exactly a secret to anyone who knows me and I didn't change it for this game to defend KT.

I already knew that he had that reputation, and while I haven't looked through

all

of his scumgames yet, his story does check out from what I have seen.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

The thing that finally prompted me to vote Wisdom over Ankamius or Trebuchet was something else, by the way:

KT is scum

pedit: Spiff pls

Could you not nakedly say that and give me some reason? That would help everyone in this game right now

No, that would only help you because you'd have shit to defend against. Tough luck.

No, that would only help you because you'd have shit to defend against. Tough luck.

But that would be classified as scumish behavior because your not giving the person your attacking any room when there should be room

The way KT was talking here felt like scum on scum.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

I agree that Ashnard's been antitown this game but I think he's more likely to be town than not.

pedit: I don't think he would lie about his self meta. I've seen him claim similar things in games where he was town. For example:

2) I would never have done what I did with a scumpartner of mine. If I was gonna bus, I'd bus. If I was gonna defend her, I'd defend her.

which is pretty much how I play as well so it's believable to me. I think town are more likely to be unsure and get cold feet whereas scum don't want to ruin any towncred they might have gotten for bussing by suddenly being unsure. And yes I know that's a partial self defence as well but it is what it is. The purpose of weak players who aren't going to make it to end game is towncred. RC did not interact with KT/Firebringer in a towncred maximising fashion.

This doesn't mean he can't be scum, but it means he's less likely to be and that he's chosen this game to play against his meta for some reason and chose KT of all people to go out on a limb for. For these reasons i'm not interested in pursuing Ashnard as a scumspect even though I do wish his hydra partner were participating in the discussion given that he's posting elsewhere on the site.

--P

[Scatterplot]

oh. I don't know why people would lie though.

--P

[Scatterplot]

That is indeed a defense you used! I don't know if it's actually

true

that you have any specific pattern toward bussing your scumbuddies, or just a thing that you said in that game. I know that you do bus sometimes, but obviously it's not consistent or you would have bussed LucianRoy.

RadiantCowbells

does

have a reputation for consistently bussing, and checking his past games gives that some actual weight.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

buddying

you misspelled "townleaning"

--P

[Scatterplot]

Titus is still town.

Wisdom's 740 sort of gives me pause on a Wisdom/Ankamius/Firebringer scumteam, even though I can see either one as scum independently pretty easily. Wisdom is still my best bet.

I really don't like scatterplot anymore, guys. Seem to be buddying RC pretty fucking hard

Sooooooooo...you think Ashnard is town, then.

Let's walk through this step by step.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

The game I ICed is over and I can talk about both Phantom and Rask now.

I started my IC confessional before I got my role PM and I tried to find a tactful way of saying that I hoped to draw scum so I could just policy lynch both my SEs without having to try to read them. Phantom's half of that was that I was following an ongoing newbie game of his (since completed), in which he fakeclaimed cop at L-1 as a VT and got himself lynched for his trouble. I knew that Phantom was going to do scummy stuff and that there wasn't a really a limit to how much antitown stuff he could do while still being town, so I was hoping to be scum so I could just not care.

And then Phantom surprised me, in a good way. Yes he was active and doing scummy shit and drawing everyone's suspicions like a lightning rod, but he was getting reactions and freely tossing out reads that made sense to me based on how everybody was reacting to him. He pushed a newer player very hard trying to reaction test him, and we both initially misinterpreted the newer player's reaction but when I pushed the new player they towntold strongly enough that they went on to be my top townread. I was actually really impressed with his play there.

Yes, his playstyle looks scummy, but he's not an idiot. There's some sort of method to his madness.

I was able to give him a bit of a safety net in that game because I was the IC...but then towards the end of day 1 we were going in circles and I did end up mislynching Phantom after all. I don't remember why but I felt really bad about it.


I was hoping that this game he would do something similar, that I could give him a bit of a safety net to do his crazy scumhunting thing with where he runs in circles around the thread looking scummy/sloppy but still doing shit to get reads and doing stuff that lets other people get reads, and that this time I wouldn't let him down. But this game had a lot faster pace than that one and people have been tunnelling me off and on for what I was trying to do with Phantom so I wasn't actually able to give him the safety net I tried to give him in the newbie game and maybe there was just too much noise for him to do his thing. I was hoping he'd take the townread I gave him and run with it but he mostly didn't and I have been underwhelmed with the amount of scumhunting he's done this game in comparison with the newbie game but he did find scum in KT and latched onto that. So, the results are mixed.



Raskolinov was obvtown in the newbie game. From page 1 he had reads and he was scumhunting and was demonstrating transparent thought process and he was paranoid of me because I was the IC and he was asking questions and looking for motivations and really trying to understand where everybody was coming from and his thought processes made sense and yeah I did get a little paranoid of him towards the end of day 1 because I thought he was rolefishing and also because of tictac's push on him which was so nuanced that I wanted to consider it seriously but when I did go back through his ISO he really did just seem town. I've started to see little signs of that Rask in his recent posting in this game but he hasn't been posting enough for me to get a good read on him. (Fortunately I have other reasons for thinking the RC head is town but I still would like to interact with Rask and see the Rask from the newbie game that I ICed.)

--P

[Scatterplot]

I know Titus has a track record of getting lynched constantly regardless of alignment. I don't know about the meta stuff on her, I haven't played with her, but I thought Sakura was town and this changes nothing.

She just replaced in and hasn't even been in the game for 24 hours and I buy the slip Gorkington pointed out on Sakura and honestly I still think my logic on the Firebringer hammer makes sense and I think Sakura's replace-out is more likely to come from town and

this wagon is terrible

.

I don't actually know who's on this wagon, I don't remember where the votecount stands. I know Wisdom is on it. But the point is that she is town okay.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

OH COME ON.

talah has requested replacement. Searching...

Firebringer replaces KTthecreeper!

How is it so hard to believe that someone could make an honest mistake off of this?

How is it so

easy

to believe she'd make the mistake on Day 1 as scum before Firebringer ever even flipped, and decide to keep the charade up overnight? Has she seriously done things on that scale before?

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

Um...I don't know what I'm looking for here.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

People have been calling her scum all game. There's not a whole lot to underestimate.

She hasn't acted very closely to the one game I played with her as town. I'll admit that.

(To be fair expecting me to remember how anyone played on Day 1 enough to give good comparisons is not going to work.)

But I just don't think she's scum, at all, and everything about this wagon is just so

bad

.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

ether's wandering offline so i'm here now.
this is where i'm at right now with my reads:

votecount 2.3 and a half

Titus

(5) -

Wisdom

,

Ankamius

,

Antihero

,

Spiffeh

,

Mad King Ashnard

Spiffeh

(2) -

Expedience

,

Titus

,

Wisdom

(1) -

Scatterplot

Scatterplot

(1) -

hiplop

Ankamius

(1) -

Ranger

Not voting (2) -

PhantomCobalt

,

Gorkington

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Deadline is January 29, 17:40 GMT-7 or in (expired on 2016-01-29 17:40:00).

I am not sure I care enough about this wagon to derail it, because I feel like all of the people who are making points about sakura's meta know her better than I do and they can't all be scum and enough people are saying the same thing that they are probably telling the truth. I did go through some past games to see whether you guys were in the group who day 1 lynch titus and from what i could see you aren't; when she's scum you lynch her and when she's town she gets nightkilled. I feel like I need more time to be able to read Titus myself and that i'm probably too slow for the blitz queue. The only salient points to me about this wagon is that I'm not townreading enough of the participants.

Somebody I think it was gorkington asked what Sakura had done that was town and I can't think of an answer to that question.

I'm still digesting Ranger's posts. I liked them at first glance but the gorkington or somebody asked some pointed questions about them and now I think that some flips would help me understand them.

I remember in WiFoM city salamance told me that when you're wrong, just find someone who is town and sheep them, and I thought that was a good way of doing things. so on day 1 i was right but then i second guessed myself and was wrong, but i think i was right about something else, and i was wrong about a few things that i now think i'm right about. I would sheep anti or ranger I think.

--P

[Scatterplot]

Also, Titus' early reads match mine pretty closely which is a point in her favour I think. and I think people are harder to read if they get backed into a corner and aren't given space to settle into the game.

Titus, how can we tell whether Ankamius is a townbeard or not?

pedit: @Mad King I think that's a mild towntell actually.

--P

[Scatterplot]

Ankamius has been going very blatantly against the grain all game with his reads in a way that takes guts as scum to do, because it's easy to be wrong about your reads if the entire town is being wrong about their reads but when you're doing it in a way that makes you stand out it is harder to do as scum.

but i'm under the impression that he does have balls as scum and that this isn't enough of a reason to townread him.

and we only have one scumflip so far so all we know is that he was wrong about KT, and we don't know who else he was right or wrong about.

--P

[Scatterplot]

like the only reason i got away with this kind of thing in History was that nobody else's reads were any better:

I'm not opposed to any of the current wagons at the moment and we really need to consolidate soon.

There was a vote count on the last page, posted on Monday. The current wagons look like this:

Aristophanes

(L-4)

-

Spiffeh

,

Dwlee99

Sir Bastion

(L-4)

-

pignash

,

Bellaphant

Spiffeh

(L-5)

-

gummmybear

--P

None of that was contoversial. Ankamius has been controversial this game, which is why I thought potentially townbeard.

Ankamius

let's see where this goes.

--P

[Scatterplot]

VOTE: Ankamius

I am good at BBCode

--P

[Scatterplot]

ether's top two scumreads are wisdom and anka.

I'm worried about Spiffeh because his posts feel really insubstantial to me.

I want Titus to have time to settle in. Either she's going to settle in and contribute or she's going to drop a bunch of associative tells with her buddy. What's the rush?

--P

[Scatterplot]

if we all think wisdom is scum then why was nobody sheeping me onto wisdom for 2 days. do i need to post bunny pics. i wish i felt strongly enough about something for bunny pics.

--P

[Scatterplot]

--P

[Scatterplot]

Hi Rask! What are your reads like?

pedit: I can do that!

VOTE: Wisdom

--P

[Scatterplot]

--P

[Scatterplot]

Actually this is kinda weird. Since when are you two best friends.

--P

[Scatterplot]

UNVOTE:

--P

[Scatterplot]

what is this i don't even

--P

[Scatterplot]

@Titus: that was directed at Mad King actually, i should have specified. I don't understand his latest posting at all. except for the cat pictures sort of. But I've seen you give up like this as town before. I don't have a read on you currently. I need more time.

@everybody else: even if she's scum, if we quick lynch her how will we find her partner?

--P

[Scatterplot]

RC, what has spiffeh done that is town? you don't have to give away stuff you want to reuse on him, but give me something please.

--P

[Scatterplot]

We have 2 days until the deadline. This is my first blitz and probably my last. i don't work well when i don't have enough data. quicklynching someone without giving them time to participate is almost the worst thing we could do to help me understand the game. If they flip scum, great, but if they have a couple days (not day phases, just days) to interact with everybody I'm going to have an easier time following along.

@Wisdom: no, titus isn't a newbie, but I am good at disentangling wifom, even from more experienced players. I figured out who several of her buddies were in mafiaception based only on her day 1 posts.

@Spiffeh: you can do better than this.

--P

[Scatterplot]

evidence that i tryhard games that i'm not even playing in:

Spoiler: mafiaception

titus 1809

albert b. rampage

=12 -?=17 =51 =60 =91 -+234 +P266 +280 +283 =383 +P425 +435 =437 =439 =519 +1237 +1260 +1264 +1265 +1360 +1384 +1457 +1510 =1514 +1516 =1519 +1523 =1575 +1585 +1588 +1610 +1621 +1627 +1630 =1641 +1642 +1645 +1678 +1681 +1683 =1695 =1699 +1706 +1707 =1709 +1758 =1800 =1806 =1809

bbmolla/peptobislawl

=986 =1020 +1038 =1095 +1099 =1100 +1107 =1237 -1680

bulbazak

=p91 -v94 =160 -172 =234 =235 -278 -303 -308 -315 -319 =322 =324 =326 =327 =329 -340 -349 =379 =380 +593 =607 =714 =1457 =1678 =1683 =1693 =1706

chaosomega/stodav

dongempire/starbuck

+62 +478

drixx

+?94 -?160 -?=172 -235 -315 -451 =985 =+1259 =1260 -1356 +?1360 -1384 -1388 -v1391 =1403 -1457 =1459 -1462 -1510 +1514 -1516 +1519 -1521 =1523 +1551 =1585 -1588 +1623 =1624 +1634 =1647 =1648 =1654 =1656 =1663 =1667 =1669 =1674

farside22

=17 =18 =160 +172 =392 =731 =736 =907 =923 =924 =1100 =1358 =1623 =1624 +1630 +1631 =1634 -1641 -1651 =1660 -1664 =1671 =1674 =1680 =1683 =1749 =1752 +1767 =1770 =1806 =1807

fro99er

=153 =+?172 -519 -=529 =607 -665 -668 =930 -959 =986 -?1068 =1085 =1092 -1265 -1269 -1457 -1621 -1678 -1683 -1768

gorkington

=155 =?157 =162 =177 p264 =265 +277 =278 -303 =308 =315 =317 =319 =320 =342 =344 =345 =349 =392 =425 =473 =483 -605 -714 -857 -902 -924 =1023 =1028 -1032 -1033 -1038 -1048 =1049 -1056 =1085 -1092 =1099 -1100 =1107 -1328 -1330 -1334 -1384 -1388 -+1391 -1392 =1395 -1396 -1403 -1409 -1749 -1752 -1754 -1755 -1758 -1759 -1763 -1764 -1767 -1768 -1770 -1775 -1778 -1780 -1785 -1789

hiplop/zzzx

-717

katsuki

=40 =51 =138 =264 =286 =929 =985

mariomaniac4

+62 +?94 v425 +?451 -473 -478 -857 +1095 =1099 -1630 +?=1641 -=+1651 =-+1671 -+1681 -1795

marquis

-236 p264 -331 -714

peregrinev

-+525 +667 +887 +907 +923

porochaz

=40 =170 =189 =231 +236 -286 -342 -425 =435 -857 =1358 -1588 =1594 =1610

ranger

-?=62 -?451 -?717

ricastle

=153 =172 =186 -451 -473 -715 =736 -738 -740 -749 -857 -902 -924 -930 =957 -1356 -1358 -1384 +1510 -1514 =1523 v1551 -1554 -1575 -1579 -1594 -1610 -1621 -1623 -1680 -1749 -1752 -1758 -1767 -1770

spiffeh

+188 =233 +236 v277 +280 =283 =335 +383 u+425 +519 =591 =593 =597 =929 =1020 +1264 +1384 +1396 +1462 =1551 =1554

tammy

+435 +667 =1259 +1260 +1265 +1356 +1384 +1457 =1459 =1514 =1519 +1523 +1585 +1621 +1627 +1645 +1678 =1749 +1758 =1800 -1802 =1804

wickedjestr/bellaphant/anatole kuragin

+236 +591 -593 -v596 -857 =1038 -1048 -1068 -1073 -1085 -1092 -1330 -1356 -1358

i was wrong about Starbuck (i changed the colour later so i'd know for future reference); i tried to replace into that slot thinking it was town but got ninjaed. but i was right enough.

@Wisdom: it is easier if it's someone i've played with before. This is my first time with sakura. i'm not saying don't lynch her toDay, i'm saying give her time to talk or not talk.

--P

[Scatterplot]

the deadline was frozen at 1 day pending another replacement.

--P

[Scatterplot]

OceanWind has requested replacement. The deadline will be frozen at 1 day until a replacement is found.

We had all the time in the world (well, however long it took for gorkington to sub in). I think the self hammer does mean something in that context.


--P

[Scatterplot]

OceanWind has requested replacement. The deadline will be frozen at 1 day until a replacement is found.

We had all the time in the world (well, however long it took for gorkington to sub in). I think the self hammer does mean something in that context.


--P

thought you were against tituslynch??????

i dont know whether that info supports it or is against it. brain a bit scrambled right now. but it's truth and it's a puzzle piece and just because i don't know where that puzzle piece goes doesn't mean i can't see you looking for just that piece so i hand you the puzzle piece and you do what you will with it.

--P

[Scatterplot]

It tastes of oranges.

--P

[Scatterplot]

I wanted time for discussion before lynching. instead there's shitposting and meaningless noise to make scumhunting harder and make it impossible to reread the thread. but it doesn't matter anymore, health stuff is going to keep me incoherent for the next day or so anyway.

--P

[Scatterplot]

you're not the one that's been shitposting, Titus.

--P

[Scatterplot]

I still haven't fully recovered from the seizure I had on Thursday.

i'm also feeling really demoralised right now. Ether thought Sakura was obvtown. I needed more time to see it either way. I could see Titus getting boxed into a corner in a way that I've seen happen to her as both alignments before. and I didn't have the language to do anything and everyone was screaming and trying to bully me into voting someone that I knew we'd had in our townpile the last time I was coherent and I won't even say what that felt like because it's too over the top and personal for a mafia game even though it's true.

and my head is slowly starting to unscramble and maybe tomorrow i'll be able to participate fully again.

--P

[Scatterplot]

The nightkill WIFOM is dumb. Asking people why they're still alive in a setup with two doctors when we know scum got a reminder of that fact on Night 1 is dumb. Assuming that the scum are doing framejobs because Firebringer, who died without ever speaking to the rest of the scumteam, selfhammered, is dumb. Gorkington's logic in 1886 is at least possible, maybe.

I did glance at some of Expedience's other games, just long enough to note activity rate, and he seemed to have decent middle of the road activity in those games--both town and scum--that he doesn't have here.

I am in a position where I think Wisdom is more likely to be scum, but I barely even care and I'm still mad at myself for Titus and Ankamius is also scummy and I think Plotinus suspects him more than Wisdom anyway and maybe Ranger deserves to be happy just so somebody can be happy.

vote: Ankamius

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

Ashnard was probably killed in order to point to me, given his declaration of me being confscum and such

I definitely agree the modus operandi of the scumteam is framing people.

It's almost as if I said this yesterday about someone else!

Someone who I could have sworn I said was being framed by Firebringer, which you ignored me on! Wonder why.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

I think it's more likely that you're just scum. I think you're fully capable of saying the things Ranger pointed out as scum, and the KT-you exchange that Gorkington found (and that I voted you for yesterday) makes you

more

likely to be scum, not less.

There's no way I'm going to count Ashnard's death as a point in your favor. The fact that it's technically possible doesn't make it more likely than other reasons for the kill.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

I think that her reasons for writing you off are wrong, and things like that are just confirmation bias. But I don't really care. An Ankamius lynch is fine with me anyway and I don't think I'm going to suddenly start having the energy to fight you today.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

That thing you just said is also dumb.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

Pretty well! Like I said, I wouldn't be voting Ankamius if I didn't independently suspect him. Sheeping just makes it easier to justify things I was already inclined to do.

Dumb.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

Anyway, I'm not dragging this argument out for a page, other people can ask me to continue it if they think there's more to cover.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

I think my progression on you has been pretty damn clear. I also think you know full well that you're full of shit.

And again. I'm not turning this into a ten page 1v1, I'm going to let this stay readable.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

I can explain it!

But not for you. That's my last word on the matter.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

Just to be clear, I'm not voting PhantomCobalt. If you were trying to pin down potential scumbuddies for me, go ahead and use him, I guess.

Wisdom is still scum. He shouldn't be policy lynched, he should be lynched

for being scum

.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

Expedience, have you read 1519?

--P

[Scatterplot]

I'm not refusing to vote him. I want to finish ISOing some other people.

How is it irrelevant when it explains the thing you've been tunnelling me for all game? You've done almost nothing else but try to tie me to his slot because of something I did in RVS to get reads.

--P

[Scatterplot]

I think he could be scum, but at this point I mainly think it because you're trying so hard to tie me to him that it's causing my brain to do preflip associatives with you and makes me wonder if this wisdom/ankamius thing has just been "all the more experienced players get paranoid of each other when the scumteam is actually the newest players" and I don't know what to think of that.

But aside from that, he has his KT tunnel on his favour. I don't know if he's the sort of player who would bus in a tunnel or not, and that's why Ether is townleaning him.

Your attacking her wisdom/ankamius reads doesn't make sense either from my perspective because she's been paranoid of wisdom all game and I wasn't seeing it for a while but I started to see it towards the end of the yesterDay because of all of wisdom's pushing looked like cheeky scum stuff, but then so did Ashnard's posting; I can't think of any town motivation for the way Ashnard was behaving either.

That post of Ether's isn't all that weird. We both sort of feel like no matter what we do you guys are going to invent some reason to scumread us for it because it's been pretty damned if we do damned if we don't lately.

I feel like scum are capitalising on my not being able to be as present as I usually am in my games, but there are too many people doing it for all of you to be scum, and in recent games of mine town aligned players have been pushing me on the most absurd bullshit that it's pretty hard to tell townpushes from scumpushes.

--P

[Scatterplot]

because of all of wisdom's

pushing

POSTING

looked like cheeky scum stuff

still not wordsing as well as I wish I were.

--P

[Scatterplot]

I don't know, spiffeh, that's what I'm trying to find out. I have a tendency to scumread people who try to push me to do more than I'm doing when I'm already on the verge of a meltdown about failing to live up to expectations, which is a large part of why I lynched you in The Odds. I'm trying not to do that to you again here even though you voted me pretty much as soon as I explained that I've been less present due to health stuff.

The way Wisdom was talking to me at the end of day 2 when using language hurt, pushing me to vote for the mislynch...i'm not going to say the comparison because it's over the top even though it's 100% true and i don't know how to explain it to someone who doesn't have my disability. i don't know how to words it. It felt kind of imperius curselike.


But it's too...close to home...for me to see if interacting with me this way is because people are scum or because they don't realise what's happening. I feel like other people have been casting out feelers in recent pages. Expedience has been backing off which is interesting (I don't mean scummy interesting I just mean it's something that i've noticed and it's a puzzle piece that I don't know where it fits yet). Players that i'm 99% sure are town (Gorkington, but also I think anti and ranger, doing this off the top of my head) are giving me space because they realise that boxing me into a corner is a bad way to figure out my alignment.

Even trying to talk about this is making my connection to language feel all tenuous. I think this is a true thing that's happening but talking about it is too hard.



pedit: no wisdom, that's not what i'm saying. stop trying to put words into my mouth. I think that expedience is trying to tie me to phantom. i think that if expedience is scum, then phantom is more likely to also be scum. that means i want to lynch expedience first if i'm lynching in [expedience, phantom], because Expedience scum flip tells me something about Phantom but Phantom scum flip doesn't tell me something about Expedience (Expedience could be town and right about his reads in that instance).

--P

[Scatterplot]

that's not what I said.

And the "damned if we do damned if we don't" feeling is not limited to Phantom. it's pervasive. People are determined to twist our words to fit their own narrative no matter what we're actually saying. You're doing it right now.

--P

[Scatterplot]

THAT'S WHAT HE'S DOING TO US AND I'M CALLING HIM ON IT

and you're saying that my calling him on it is scummy.

--P

[Scatterplot]

was waiting to post this until i'd ISOed everybody else to figure out where he stood in my readslist relative to other players but since you asked:

expedience 1811

Ankamius

| |

Antihero

-=172 =383 -396 =919 | |

Gorkington/OceanWind/talah

+162 -165

+172

-185 +393 =397 +425 +735

+-915

+919 +925 | |

hiplop

-172 =176 | |

PhantomCobalt

* -162 -197 -381 -382 -390 =392

-447

-919 -925 | -+1754 |

Ranger

=168 -172 =382 | =1752 =1754 |

Scatterplot

-v162 -167 -172 -176 -182 -197 -381 -382 -390

-447

-919 | -1752 |

Spiffeh/Trebuchet MS

-172 -396 -433 | -v1378 -1488 |

Wisdom

-162 =182 =185 =381 +382 =392

+396

+919 | =-1487 =1754 |

Firebringer/KTthecreeper

=392 -447 -v735

+-915

-919 ✝

Titus/Sakura Hana

=185 -385

-396

|

=+-1378

-1754

-v1811

✝

Mad King Ashnard

+197 =447

=915

=925 | =1380 +1487 =1488 ✝

Expedience has done nothing but tunnel our slot all game and his reads are entirely based on the premise of us being scum with Phantom.

In 162 he says the talah wagon is moving too fast and then in 172 says he doesn't think it's scum driven and that he doesn't think the speed of the wagon makes talah town he just disagrees with the wagon.

In 915 he defends that post where he pretended to weigh up the two wagons (talah and firebringer) and ultimately decided to vote firebringer, but if you look at the numbers he'd been defending talah since 162 aside from a few posts where he says that he's defending talah even though talah might not be town, and had been scumreading KT since 447 but never really interacted with him between that post and the post in which he votes him, so if his mind was already made up there then that "look at me i'm deliberating" post was just for show.

Also he reacts with confusion and worry when people don't give him towncred for bussing Firebringer.

In 447 Expedience attacks KT for voting me even though he'd been scumreading me and Phantom all game and tunnelling me especially so it's really weird that he cares about KT switching off of Phantom onto me, the wagon he ostensibly supports. It reads like he knows that KT is scum and that I'm town and he's attacking KT for voting town even though he's scumreading me.

396 is encouraging the fight between Wisdom and Sakura and says that it looks bad the way that Trebuchet backed down from scumreading Anti. If Spiffeh is town then this is a terrible post. It's probably terrible either way actually.

In 1378 he attacks Spiffeh for confbiasing on Sakura, which is something that only town do, and then quickly hedges saying that it doesn't mean he thinks that Sakura is town, he just thinks it's bad that Spiffeh is scumreading her. It's like he doesn't want to derail the Sakura wagon by defending her but he wants to get in early on attacking Spiffeh for being wrong about Sakura.

--P

[Scatterplot]

right, because he's been backing down from me in the last couple of pages (which happened after I wrote this). i don't know what that means. I can't think in real time.

And like I said, I need to read other people's ISOs to figure out where he stands in my readslist relative to other players.

pedit: He only scumread in Ranger in 172, he's been neutral to her recently. and his attacks on spiffeh aren't paranoia, he's been going after the slot all game.

--P

[Scatterplot]

it's not a case.

--P

[Scatterplot]

cases are accompanies by votes. This is my concerns with his ISO. and please do let him respond without getting in the way.

--P

[Scatterplot]

that's another problem with his ISO, actually. He doesn't have enough townreads. We've been his primary sumread but his pushes on other slots have been mostly about which way the wind was blowing. It's like he'd be willing to lynch almost anybody but himself.

--P

[Scatterplot]

It's not a case. I'm opening a dialgoue with him about problems i have with his ISO. I did the same thing in The Odds (and also insisted that what i was doing wasn't a case in that game).

--P

[Scatterplot]

that's the reason it's not a case! I'm not trying to lynch him.

If i were trying to lynch him i would be voting him and telling people to sheep me.

Instead it is the first of many ISOs that I'm going to read and comment about and it's a thing that i do in literally every game that i play but you've decided it's scummy to read ISOs and talk about them if the ISO happens to belong to a newer player.

--P

[Scatterplot]

In the game I ICed, he wasn't just trolling. He was also getting reads out of his trolling and sharing them freely. That's what's missing here.

I think that's L-1. I'd be willing to hammer that at some point but I'm not done ISOing people; this is the first day this day phase that i'm alert enough to participate and i'd kind of like some more time.

--P

[Scatterplot]

Like, if you look at this reaction test he did, starting from about here: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p7492331

it at first looked like the newbie was responding to his "does your role pm say you're mafia" with "how do you know" instead of "no wtf" and he gets tons of reads on basically everybody in the thread by how they react to this "reaction test" which wouldn't work on anyone after their first game but it seemed to work there...the newbie was later able to towntell pretty strongly in response to me pushing him as well. Phantom saw that the game was stalling, took initiative, did stuff that looked scummy, but he got reads out of them. They weren't all accurate but it was page 4, nobody was right about everything on page 4.

Already 4 posts later he's sharing that he has a slight townread on Rask from the way Rask reacted to him. Later in 89 his townlean on Rask goes away from Rask's further responses. etc.

--P

[Scatterplot]

orrrrrr this is the first day in 4 days that i've been able to type coherently and I'm resuming my read on Phantom from 20 pages ago?



eitherway, i'm this close to saying fuck it and using the strategy i used in my last game with anti even though i've been trying not to.

--P

[Scatterplot]

This is scum theatre and you're both scum.

VOTE: Wisdom L-4

--P

[Scatterplot]

Like, read through the last couple pages from the perspective that I'm town, which I know will be hard for some of you who are not townreading me but I

am

town in this game, more town than I've ever been before just from the sheer number of things that I never in a million years would have done if I were scum. I am usually surprised by how little would be different but this game I've surprised myself with how much would have been different.

We have players who painted my being unsure about Sakura, which largely stemmed from being unwell, and Ether's strong townread on her, as us being scum together and then pushed that lynch through when we had plenty of time left and I was asking for that time and they used the idea of me being scum together with her to encourage people to rush that lynch. And then yesterday they pushed the narrative that Phantom and I were scum together because my defence of him couldn't possibly stem from having ICed him and modded him and trying to look below the surface on a harder to read player who often comes across as scummy when he's town, and they quickhammered him before he could claim.

And now they're both overdramatically claiming to scumread each other based, yet again, on preflip associatives with me, a town player. They both agree the other is scum but they want to lynch me first, and they haven't realised that they won't succeed because i'm not getting lynched this game.

So. Anti is town. Gorkington is town. There seems to be an innocent on Ankamius. We thought Expedience might be the cop towards the end of the day which is why we backed down off him. Ranger is town.

Ether says that hiplop spent most of day 1 tunnelling talah, whose replaceout was pretty town and Ocean was also town and Gorkington has continued to be town, and when hiplop wasn't tunnelling talah, he was looking for counterwagons to KT.

Wisdom is scum because his first interpretation of the Ashnard kill was that he was being framed instead of RC gets nightkilled a lot as town even when he's wrong and who even knows who RC was scumreading because RC posted so much spam that wading through that ISO was impossible. Guilty conscience. He's scum because of his interactions with KT and because the Titus wagon was scumdriven and because of the way he was talking to me at the end of day 2 and the way he's continuing to talk to me since then.

And he's scum for his entrance today where they're both doing that distancing thing before they try to push my wagon through to get them to 6p MYLO but they haven't figured out what should be blindingly obvious about my play all game and why that's not going to work. I'm not getting lynched today.
--P

[Scatterplot]

I'm going to take the Tammy comment as a compliment.

I'm pretty sure Anti is town.

I think we still have a chance. This game has been harrowing. But I don't think all is lost yet.

--P

[Scatterplot]

I'm here too!

Which is good. We've got a lot of Wisdom townreads to dismantle. (To be clear, ending this day in a hiplop lynch is absolutely fine with me, but not before we've driven this point home.)

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

Um...I'm thinking on that.

I think I actually do have to think on that after all. I've got Plotinus's ISO map in front of me right now. I'm not so sure there's an innocent on Ankamius--it seems to correlate more closely to Spiffeh taking over--and Trebuchet seems to have very clearly changed their tune on you over Night 1.

But ugh.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

that's what we thought too, but we just saw this:

anti is town.
is this the part where i call both of you suspicious for not seeing it when it's so obvious to me? OHOHOHOHOHOH
i'm going to bark at spiff if he cant produce quotes that are backing up this "ank is IC-level town" when he gets a computer.

I never said he was IC level town you nooblet

--P

[Scatterplot]

Ashnard is the person Spiffeh was expressing the most suspicion toward going into night. That's my guess. He already thought Ankamius was town by that point (1686), so it doesn't make sense that he'd investigate him.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

That quote is from Day 2--Spiffeh taking over is when the slot started calling Ankamius town. It's possible that he checked you Night 1 and Ankamius Night 2, but I don't think that's what happened.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

He doesn't have a single interaction after night 1 in which he expresses suspicion or paranoia of wisdom, not even hydra dissonance. I thought the minuses with anti on day 2 were just doubtcasting (which is bad enough for a townread) but he does express some actual paranoia about Cougar's Den there too which I think he would avoid doing if he had an inno on Anti. Anti is obvtown, though.

--P

[Scatterplot]

The quote about ankamius that I linked was from day 3. 2012

--P

[Scatterplot]

UNVOTE: wisdom

Consider our vote on hiplop in spirit but I really don't want to rush this day phase. I want to do numbers for ankamius. and other slots if there's time.

pedit: yeah I think it's solved but I want to spend a couple real life days just making sure.

--P

[Scatterplot]

I was already wavering on Ankamius overnight, to be honest, the supposed innocent had nothing to do with that. I'm not confident about this, especially if Ranger and Antihero think he's town now.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

I don't know how to read Ank; but it's also PoE for me. I did feel like he looked more town in Blitz 20 than he does here.

I still don't like how tunnelly expedience has been this game but I liked your towncase on him yesterDay. I wouldn't just write him off as town but I'm okay trusting your read on him.

I can't see scum outside [hiplop, ankamius, expedience], in that order.

I will be too lazy to do numbers thing postgame but in future games i will be kicking myself if i don't.

{

Wisdom

,

Antihero

}
{

Gorkington

}
{

Ranger

}
{

Expedience

}
{

Ankamius

}
{

hiplop

}

--P

[Scatterplot]

I guess both Gork and hiplop could be scum too but I'd need convincing

Everyone else is town

Posted on day 3. This is not spiffeh softing an innocent on hiplop.

--P

[Scatterplot]

I am PoEing the game and they are what's left

I'd like to hear why you don't agree

Also I called you underwhelming because you have less of a presence here than in Cougar's Den and I am concerned because of that. Not just to be a dick.

This is Spiffeh getting paranoid of Antihero on day 3 in a way that doesn't make sense if he had an innocent on him.

Ashnard makes more sense as a night 2 target.

--P

[Scatterplot]

Sorry, Gorkington, but I think this is a stretch too.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

We're still lynching hiplop today. Let's be absolutely clear. And we're not going to rush that, either; Plotinus has analysis they want to do first, and there's something I want to hash out with them.

But I do think Ankamius's reaction is from scum.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

Gorkington you have no idea how great this feels. For the first time in this whole game, I have this sense that all is right with the world and everything will actually be okay.

And all we needed was a dead cop.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

Antihero.

Talk to me. Tell me who you think Spiffeh targeted on Night 1 instead, and I will tell you why it isn't them. ISO Trebuchet and see how they treated Wisdom through Day 1, and then look at what they've said about him ever since. They can't even have targeted a dead person overnight, because nobody died.

I didn't want it to be this way. I took half an hour to go through the stages of "wtf Wisdom can't be town there has to be a way around this." But there isn't one. Trebuchet checked Wisdom on Night 1, and it is completely obvious in every way.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

Oh and Ank is still obvtown for whoever said he might be scum

~Spiffy

day 2...

that's what we thought too, but we just saw this:

anti is town.
is this the part where i call both of you suspicious for not seeing it when it's so obvious to me? OHOHOHOHOHOH
i'm going to bark at spiff if he cant produce quotes that are backing up this "ank is IC-level town" when he gets a computer.

I never said he was IC level town you nooblet

--P

day 3.

--P

[Scatterplot]

scatterplot and ank

scatterplot and ank

scatterplot and ank

say it with me now

Day 2.

anti is town.
is this the part where i call both of you suspicious for not seeing it when it's so obvious to me? OHOHOHOHOHOH
i'm going to bark at spiff if he cant produce quotes that are backing up this "ank is IC-level town" when he gets a computer.

I never said he was IC level town you nooblet

Day 3.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

jinx

--P

[Scatterplot]

Ashnard was the person Spiffeh found the most suspicious going into Night 2. It seems clear that there was hydra dissonance on Ankamius on Day 2, because Spiffeh taking over is where the townread on Ankamius solidified--not overnight. So why would he check someone he was townreading instead of his top scumread?

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

Gorkington and Ranger are pretty obviously town. And that goes double if hiplop flips scum today, since hiplop was tunneling Gorkington's slot for ages, and Ranger was the first person to turn on him today.

He targetted his top scumread Night 1. Why wouldn't he do it again?

I think the evidence is pretty clear that Ankamius was never checked. But even if it wasn't clear, there's still enough doubt over it to make clearing Ankamius over this speculation a very, very bad idea.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

The defense of hiplop was way too over the top to be believable. Pushing him as Spiffeh's Night 2 innocent? The two of you are cornered now, and you're feeling it.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

I don't know how to read Ank; but it's also PoE for me. I did feel like he looked more town in Blitz 20 than he does here.

--P

Explain this.

I thought this was a really great question:

ank. be town. We want to kill Xtox or apparently almost 50

What is the best single post in the entire thread detailing why either of these slots are scum?

When you had just replaced in and were trying to dive into the game as quickly as you could. I think I will steal this question for future use. I don't recall seeing questions of this calibre from your slot in this game, not even when you were looking lost and trying to find your footing which we were townreading you for earlier on because we had felt similar things. And sometimes the things a person does to ground themselves in the game and refocus aren't fully visible in the thread but...as frustrated as you appeared to be, and I don't doubt that the frustration was genuine to some extent because I've been frustrated by similar things as both alignments, but I didn't see you taking steps to fix it.

--P

[Scatterplot]

[i also thought that. why is there so much absolutism in this game q.q]

Oh, huh. Okay.

I'm still in the "it can't be anyone except {Ankamius, Expedience, hiplop}" camp, though.

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

Do you understand how the gamestate looks in this situation as town who is townreading the one on the chopping block?

This was to Ether, by the way.

Apparently I don't. How does it look?

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

Could you speak in more specifics than that?

Town:
Antihero because duh.
Hiplop because of tone, mainly.
Gork because the attack on me is blatantly town.

Rest:
Wisdom and Scatterplot are question marks; I have a spotty read accuracy on Wisdom and I've never played with either head of Scatterplot before; neither slot has given me any alignment impressions either way.
Ranger is down to null. The attack on me is either town who is just deathtunneling all game or scum who is using it as an excuse to not do anything. It's nearly impossible to tell and the fact that there's very little in her ISO when you remove me from it doesn't help anything.
Expedience is leaning town; his vote on Firebringer at the end of the day doesn't look like bussing and he was hesitant to join the Sakura/Titus wagon for a lot of day 2. It's an awkward scum agenda to take when he's this consistently under pressure. The reason he's not straight town is because of the last second Titus vote.
Spiffeh read is on hold until he can quantify his read on me. My paranoia on him is mainly from how vague he is with defending me and I'm well aware that this is a blind spot of mine. I have no idea what the differences between his town and scum game are otherwise, so.
PhantomCobalt is null-scum. I can't shake that I was onto something with him despite being wrong on Sakura. The read itself feel very distant, but then again I can't even remember anything he's done in a really long time.

Ranger, Expedience and I are your only non-town reads here who haven't been cleared or killed. Expedience is a lurker. Ranger is generally fairly townread, but also pretty blatantly anti-establishment and hates these awful lynches we keep making. My slot has spent most of the game wishing it were dead, and at the end of Day 3 every single player in the game was either scumreading us or willing to compromise on us.

So who are the masterminds?

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

i hope youre town ether. :c

Ether's so town she's absorbed the neighbouring villages.

--P

[Scatterplot]

Confirming.

We protected Antihero night 1, Ranger night 2, Expedience night 3.

I was trying to be subtle earlier in the game but I stopped being subtle earlier toDay to the extent that I felt like even "Please don't lynch me I have an important power role" would be more subtle.

The only reason I didn't replace out was because I didn't think whoever replaced us would see our crumbs. + I didn't want to abandon Ether.

We have been speculating in AIM today that Ank was either scum faking claiming doc to his detriment (I don't think he'd win a 1v1 with an actual doc) or the actual other doc and that it would come out in the wash.

--P

[Scatterplot]

Ranger

Scatterplot

Expedience

Antihero

Wisdom

Ankamius

hiplop

Gorkington

This is where i'm at with my reads right now. green: conftown, blue: obvtown, orange: what's left.

--P

[Scatterplot]

That's true, yeah. So we're at 6:2 with 4 conftowns.

--P

[Scatterplot]

Blitz is hard.

--P

[Scatterplot]

It's hard modding blitzes too, I only managed vote counts on 36% of the pagetops.

--P

[Scatterplot]

And I feel like needing to miss a couple days here and there is no big deal at all in 2 week day phases, and people are willing to wait as long as you do make up for it in the rest of the day phase, but when a couple days is half the day phase it's...hard.

and my usual playstyle takes forever with overanalysing everything and making snap judgements and rush rush rush just isn't my thing. I need to have time let reads settle and then have space for fridge logic and figuring out where all the pieces go.

But it's good to have tried it and learnt that I guess.

--P

[Scatterplot]

This probably won't be needed, but. The ☾ shows where the night phases were. + are townreads/working together with/supporting, - are pushing/questioning/scumreading/doubtcasting. v are votes. == is null reading. ? means i didn't understand something/am unsure that i'm reading the interaction right. R shows where Spiffeh replaced Trebuchet.

spiffeh/trebuchet ms 2219

Ankamius

+334 +403 +406 +410 =417 +424 -506 +507 +1002 +1092 ☾ -1195 +1214 +1265 -==1322 -1341 R +1686 ☾ +1823 +1916 +1917 +1941 +1944 +1994 +==2012 +2024 +2185

Antihero

=171 +208 -349 v369 -371 -374 +376 -377 -384 -400 -404 -406 -410 =411 -417 -418 -424 -426 +-429 -430 -431 =438 +507 -512 -513 +982 =984 =1012 =1037 =1163 =1165 ☾ =1191 =1315 =1324 =1330 R ☾ +1823 +1941 =1960 -1962 -1964 -1973 +1976 -1993 -1994 =1996 =2004 -2018 =2021 =2037 =2040 =2195 =2200 =2201 =2205 =2213

Expedience

+==178 +181 +195 -218 -225 -327 +355 +439 +507 +890 +975 ☾ R ☾ -1938 -1941 -1993 -2072

Gorkington/Ocean/talah

v22 -203 -210 -211 -327 +440 +507 -=580 -=581 -602 =890 -1001 -1066 -1080 +1084 =1086 +1090 +1092 =1095 ☾ -1178 -1180 =1193 -1207 =1277 R ☾ =1916 -1920 -1935 =1938 =1939 -==1941 =1944 -2012 =2021 =2027 -2031 =2040 =2219

hiplop

+178 =195 +208 +225 -452 -503 +507 -523 -524 +602 +1001 =1016 +1019 ☾ +1195 +1265 =1315 R =1466 ☾ +1823 -==1941 =2185 =2197

Ranger

-507 +619 -1064 ☾ -1344 R ☾ =1916 +1941 =2004 =2106 -2109

Scatterplot

-441 =506 +507 +561 +580 +581 +601 =1054 +1090 ☾ =1191 -1315 -1316 -1319 -1322 -v1324 -1330 -1341 -1344 R =1699 ☾ -1823 v1915 -1938 -1941 -1993 -2024 -2025 -2027 -2037 -2142 -2189 -2195

Wisdom

-441 =501 +-507 -554 -934 -960 -964 -965 -973 v974 -975 -982 -985 -987 =990 -992 -995 -999 -1006 -1009 =1016 -1019 -1020 -1036 =1047 -1054 ☾ +1188 +1195 +1198 +1261 +1265 +1272 +1307 +1413 R +1686 ☾ +1823 +1935 +1941 +1973 +1976 +2004

---

Firebringer/KT

-441 -507 =508 -561 -566 -v567 -568 -604 -619 -783 -887 -943 -956 -965 -984 -992 -995 -998 -999 +==1006 -1009 -1037 -1042 =1069 =1086 +-1092 -1104 -v1147 ✝

Titus/Sakura

-48 +334 =376 +403 =411 -420 =429 -434 =438 -442 v507 -509 -605 -619 -888 -965 +1043 +1061 -1092 +1104 v1158 -1165 ☾ v1183 -1184 -1188 +1208 -1254 +1261 =1265 +1273 -1309 -1315 -+1319 R -1480 v1553 =1556 -1686 ✝

Mad King Ashnard

-203 -=205 -207 =213 -342 =355 =403 -441 -507 -517 -572 -747 -887 -890 =945 -953 -954 -956 -958 -965 -972 +973 -974 -1006 -1092 ☾ +1198 -1228 -1261 -1273 =1305 -1306 -1307 -==1322 R v1464 -1466 -1470 -1480 -1534 -1553 -1670 -1686 -1697 -1701 ✝

Phantom

48 -?=48 +203 +211 +327 +-507 -1061 ☾ -1344 R ☾ -1938 -1941 -1953 -1993 +2072 v2178 -2189 -2195 =2210 ✝

[Scatterplot]

--P

[Scatterplot]

Yup! The atmosphere definitely threw me off some. It felt like our slot was townread through Day 1 while I had no clue what was going on and was barely doing anything, and then when I actually tried to play people started scumreading us and I just threw up my hands and went "Yeah, fuck this game."

But in a normal game I'd have just taken some time to sulk about it, gotten over myself and come back, and here every time I tried to do that, somebody got lynched and I'd lurked through another day. (Although I definitely wavered more on PhantomCobalt than I admitted, and that was even before Antihero made his case. I wouldn't have saved him.) So that sucked.

I've never actually played a large game in the modern "large games are many hundreds of pages" era, either. Not sure if that'd be better or worse on me. More time to recover, but also more time to stew in it if I can't.

But anyway!

-Ether

[Scatterplot]

VOTE: hiplop L-1

--P

[Scatterplot]

--P

[Scatterplot]

So I was waiting for Expedience to claim doctor, I admit. Ankamius and we were going to be tough for him to get through, but at least there was a time when we were lynchable. Ranger and Gorkington were never on the table.

And then I was going to hit him with NUMBERS. Assuming random kills and random protections among the vanillas, there'd be a 62.5% chance of one of us getting a protection in between Night 4 and Night 5, setting the game back to odds with an extra lynch and forcing a win anyway.

(There's a strategy that raises that to a 77.78% chance of forcing a win, by the way. But I'm going to leave that one as a puzzle. Good night!)

-Ether