Open 463: Black Flag Nightless (Game Over)

[Justin Timberlake]

Hey everyone, we've both been following along fairly closely but I want to get a mass re-read done in the next hourish. Will probably just pull an all nighter and go through it in some detail - if there's anything you want me to read into in slightly more detail in the re-read let me know now. I already have a bunch of Faradays thoughts but he should be on fairly soon since it's just past lunch time there so I'll probably talk with him first.

[Justin Timberlake]

Carly Rae Jepsen was a better avatar.

[Justin Timberlake]

Meh your read on voided was fine. I didn't like how uptight he felt in Post 88.

I have little experience with equinox but empire left me a message that equinox was his backpocket scum read. She just feels off.

But sixty...read that case.

Actually I'm not waiting...

VOTE: sixty.

This is a righteousness wagon.

Why did you use ellipses here? Also why didn't you capitalise the E and S in Equinox and Sixty?

[Justin Timberlake]

Unvote, Vote Cerulean

for being mean a few pages back. Didn't like that. SCUM.

[Justin Timberlake]

Sorry, you're going to have to deal with Faradays trolling a little longer.

I'm about half way through page 10 and the read through is actually taking quite a bit longer then I anticipated it to.

[Justin Timberlake]

Oh, shush up Faraday and vote Sixty with us.

~Empire.

MAKE ME

[Justin Timberlake]

Faraday was meant to be 'back' from whenever he vanished to by now so we can finish talking about reads but it's now 4am and I'm caving and need a few hours sleep at least so here's where I'm at right now, Faraday can just post his own thoughts and I'll talk with him tomorrow at some point.

Town (Strongest to weakest):

Cerulean

- Not understanding peoples doubt on them or semi-scum-reads on them at all really. Both of their play which has been moreso Tammy surprisingly (Seems Empires the bitch) has been extremely transparent this game and both are playing massively towards their town metas and out of the entire site those two heads are probably some of the players I'm more comfortable reading than anyone else. Their 'meta-research' on Piggy and comparison between her play here and elsewhere in Post 64 and further elaborated on in Post 92 and Post 94 matches the research I know Empire does as well as the manner reads are discussed and thought about by him. Tammys interactions with Thor and constant back-and-forthing reads very strongly as her trying to get a read of him and her questioning line re; Sixtys 'case-post' on Piggy is something I actually very much agree with, the case has a lot of elements that come across as pure bullshit, the RVS 'joke section' particularly is something that I'm not understanding Sixty holding onto and maintaining claiming to be alignment determining. Them claiming that Empire getting a town-read on Jesse and finding it genuine and Tammy notso much in Post 227 is something I buy completely and them pre-sharing 'schedules' in Post 304 is something far more likely to come from them as town, Empires much less inclined to care as much as scum - both his completed scum games have had him lurk whenever possible.

Jesse

- I think his 'I've got reads to say but want to hold of a page or two' in Post 155 is actually a massive massive town-tell, scum have little motivation to *post* and not share reads at the time since they'd get called up for having no reads and thereby be pressured to put them up instantly. On the other side I can see town wanting to refrain until they get a reaction or information to strengthen their reads before revealing them. His crack-pot theory about the ego-comment from Equinox about Thor and Cerulean in Post 167 is the sort of theories and thoughts I've come up with and still do come up with as town when my mind wonders but it's not something that happens naturally as scum at all and given that the the time between all these posts was less than an hour I don't think he's 'made it all up' nor do I think he pre-planned the entire angle of questioning from Medhi making all the responses legitimate and genuine. I also think his frustration with Medhi 'blowing' his chance of getting better read sis a town-tell. The vote on Cerulean to get a response in Post 179 is again something far more likely to come from town feeling they're ignored and wanting a response than from scum who wouldn't want the spot light as is his interaction with Cerulean afterwards and his progression to Voided.

N

- I remember finding his very very early posts town but ISOreading them I don't find that to be the case any-more, think his responses to Piggy are actually fairly null there. I do really like him attacking the reasoning for people having a town-read on him in Post 241, don't think he'd have done that as scum especially given his lack of activity, he'd want to keep whatever town-cred he had attained whatever way he got it. I think his Mehdi meta point in Post 282 is also a town-tell, it's brining up meta on an action that

can be

construed as scummy but instead stating it's a town-tell, don't think he'd want to clear a townie like that as scum given that scum need four mslynches to win and I don't think he'd defend a partner like that too given that Medhi was attracting minimal attention.

Absta

- I think his joining of the Equinox wagon only to unvote right after in Post 28 is a relatively big town-tell, especially given his reasoning in Post 48, Post 52 and Post 54, I don't think as scum he'd do something like that which would instantly garner him a massive amount of attention for no motivation whatsoever. His early scum-read on Voided and picking apart of his ISO in Post 147 contains quite a few valid points and reads as him genuinely thinking Voided is mafia. About the only reservation I have with him is that other than his scum-read on Voided and Sixty he hasn't really stated thoughts on any other player.

Thor

- I don't fully trust myself reading him, find his play to be massively similar between game to game, with that said I *am* very much liking his push on Voided and don't think his interactions with Voided look like partners at all so if I'm right and Voided flips mafia then he's town, example of what I'm talking about interaction wise is Post 143, Post 152, 254 and 255. Also really like the way he's treated and responded to Cerulean, feels like he legitimately tried to read them.

Soul

- I'm honestly not sure where to put these guys on the scale. I agree with the sheer majority of what Mehdi has said alongside with most of their reads, pretty much all of them except Piggy and the strength of others and find scum faking town-thought-process to be one of the most difficult tells to fake but at the same time I'm having a tonal issue with them. I probably should and will later look at a Mehdi-scum game and it might put me at ease but there's a severe lack of aggression and a lack of emotion from him. Really wish I could explain this better and I don't think Faradays even read their posts properly so can't really discuss this with him yet. I *should* also be able to get a stronger read on Oversoul given that I've seen him in a lot more games and his Post 303 where he grabs a meta similarity between Piggy and a scum-game which is completely against Mehdis read on her does come across as town but need a lot more.

Null

Piggy

- The call out of "One scum on my wagon" will little further elaboration on who she thinks is town voting her and who is scum other than the early-read on Equinox in Post 46 is slightly scummy but her self-meta in Post 74 comes across as very genuine. The 'little narrator voice in my head' while extremely weird in Post 81 comes across again as genuine, it reads as sort of a "Gut read I can't explain" and the manner of it doesn't feel like scum frantically trying to throw down a vote. I actually disagree with Cerulan about Piggys vote on Jesse in Post 161 being good, the reasoning behind it is very much stretching given that he said he had a lot of reads and was going to out them soon. Also don't like her reasoning behind her town-read on Voided and her vote in Post 295, not understanding either of those. Need to talk with Faraloser about her a bit because I know when I had a town-read on her he disagreed with it then even.

Mafia (Strongest to weakest)

Voidedmafia

- His inital attack on Absta in Post 60 is horrendous, questioning him over the purpose of stating 'well omgus' and his 'why is equinox a better wagon than you' aren't questions that lead to any real alignment indicicative response, they're questions that are blatant filler and instead of looking at motivation behind abstas actions he's construing them as scummy without moving his vote across giving himself future options which is what scum need in nightless. His Post 66 stating Piggy and Absta are both good wagons confirms that too. He soft sets up for Equinox too in Post 116. His posts thenon are just him responding to people back-and-forth over very small points without actually attempting to scumhunt, to top it of though he moves and votes Thor in Post 213 because Thor voted based of gut which is somehow scummier than all of his other two and a bit scum-reads. States later in Post 223 that he still has scum-reads on them which is again leaving future options and the only two town reads in it are Sixty over something I really can't understand or agree with and Jesse which has somewhat of a caveat in it. There's really no scumhunting and motivation hunting involved by him at all, just a lot of noise and back and forths. Also the absolute most important point that makes him scum is one that Faraday pointed out to me and I somehow missed, he has the word mafia in his name.

Sixty

- I don't really understand the purpose of the question in Post 30 but that's super minor. The 'after-the-fact' point and move to Absta in Post 62 and Post 63 doesn't come across as a 'gambit' as they later claim, furthermore not sure what gain would come from a 'gambit' like that. The V/LA point on Piggy in Post 79 is unbelievably weak and shit that it's not even funny, remember Faraday reading it and saying to me "WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS SHIT THE WHOLE POST" ect. The case on Piggy doesn't go any further than her 'not stating who the scum is on her wagon' which as Jesse? or Cerculian? said is nullified by you saying she's incompetent as town. The other points I find all to be weak as well. I'm not seeing the Tierce hunting for motivation and deep nature into peoples play here, I really aren't and I'm used to it in her town play and while I don't want this turning into Kdubs game v 2.0 (Lol same account for us) I really don't get their play. The closest to normal I found was the town-read stated on Cerulean but that was somewhat demolished by her asking for meta on Empire. I see little of their scum-reads other than the Piggy-case they parked on and the Soul votes reasoning I'm not following so if that could be pointed out for me that'd be awesome. Don't think I'm anywhere near as confident that Faraday is about them flipping scum though (?) but again need to talk with him about it when he gets back.

Unvote, Vote: Voided

mafia

Confirmed mafia lynch.

[Justin Timberlake]

Regfan, I'm on my lunch break right now but since you're painfully obviously town let me give you an offer. I'll put up my meta-based case on Tierce/Vi tonight and see if you agree with it or not. Basically, the thrust of my argument is that the way Tierce constructed her case against Piggy in #79 is far more likely to come from her as scum than as town. Same with Vi's #259. If you're still not as confident in them flipping scum, I'll ask Tammy if she's willing to switch along with you and Thor to Voided considering we also have them as a strong scumread.

Tammy and I had the same reaction to Tierce's post that Faraday did which is why we feel really strongly about them flipping scum.

(Your av sucks, get a new one.)

~Empire.

Sorry. We don't negotiate with terrorists. And by terrorists of course I mean Americans. (Sure, hit me. I'm okay with this offer since. Their posts are more amusing than voided's, which is my only reservation)

[Justin Timberlake]

Faraday was meant to be 'back' from whenever he vanished to by now so we can finish talking about reads but it's now 4am and I'm caving and need a few hours sleep at least so here's where I'm at right now, Faraday can just post his own thoughts and I'll talk with him tomorrow at some point.

I legit spent half an hour looking for a pair of boxers. It was awful.

[Justin Timberlake]

Not scummy at all. You should vote him now. I'll call you town without reading your posts if you do.

[Justin Timberlake]

Well it was worth something. Responses and asking to that felt genuine so currently a weak town read.

~Mehdi

How could her stating facts about a previous game not 'feel genuine?' I mean unless she was lying it would be genuine. (I'm building up to a scumread on you Uh oh!!!!!)

[Justin Timberlake]

Yes, totally give her a free ride without actually doing more to explain why she had a townread on me in the first place.

Do you find her switch scummy?

[Justin Timberlake]

Voided: Claim in your next post.

[Justin Timberlake]

And this is factually incorrect and at the recent forefront of a steady stream of terrible attempts to push on this slot.

Yeah honestly their attempt at bussing you is actually really garbage and they voted you for a bad reason.

of course i'm a funny troll guy xd and don't really know what I'm talking about since I only skimmed their iso looking for their vote.

[Justin Timberlake]

lol @ taking that seriously

(so it's OPTION C thor's derpy for thinking I was in any way serious but Voided is still the derpiest)

[Justin Timberlake]

So, to clarify - I can't tell who is derpier.
Him for asking.
Or you for refusing to do it till a hammer intent appears.

Be that as it may, for questions like that I still don't see the reason behind claiming when no one's threatened to hammer.

ARE YOU A COP?

[Justin Timberlake]

lol @ taking that seriously

(so it's OPTION C thor's derpy for thinking I was in any way serious but Voided is still the derpiest)

Good cover story.

This is something Junpei would post. Don't be like Junpei, Thor.

[Justin Timberlake]

lol @ taking that seriously

(so it's OPTION C thor's derpy for thinking I was in any way serious but Voided is still the derpiest)

Good cover story.

Presumably you think we're confirmed town if it's a cover story, though? Right?

Awesome.

[Justin Timberlake]

Anyway, I think the main think we should do now is wait for Empire's meta research to see how long it'll take us to lynch Sixty on Day 2.

[Justin Timberlake]

:excited:

[Justin Timberlake]

lmao Cerulean are gonna be mad so it's ++

[Justin Timberlake]

Yeah, Regfan called you mean. Personally I thought those posts were fine!

Anyway. Your avatar is boring.

[Justin Timberlake]

Ellipses!

[Justin Timberlake]

So. Cerulean you should hammer for real. Voided's not online so this charade is pointless.

[Justin Timberlake]

Is my sig showing up yet?

[Justin Timberlake]

Lol, I'm not reading either of those long posts but I thought the case was a frame case anyway. (I will actually read them but I like to pretend not to read long posts as a way to play up to my meta. Dw about it. Empire seems like he'd be sensitive about something like that so I'll re-assure him)

[Justin Timberlake]

Voided; Re Post 332, I'll work downwards, 1) I state words in 'these' a lot, it has no alignment related reasoning behind it whatsoever and is just out of habit, I continue not to see any reason why you think asking him that question would be beneficial. 2) If you were just 'pointing out' and not questioning him about whether the Equinox wagon is better than him you wouldn't have quoted him and put a question mark at the end, you're changing your story here and anyone reading that post and your recent 'claim' of it can notice. 3) You haven't 'debunked' it at all, the Absta question wasn't the only filler question by you at all. 4) You're right in that the 'not voting his vote across' is actually relatively weak but the scum-read and further ones all point to as Empire would say it 'widening the net'. 5) Bottom of the post you state 'Good point. Based on what Equi said in his her most recent post, Sixty's case should've been in the range to actually see it.' which gives an opening to FoS and vote based on later. 6) The Thor-vote isn't a 'pressure vote' at all, he'd explained his reasons for voting you before that there wasn't any 'more' reasons to gain. And lastly and most importantly 7) This post of yours alongside with the heap before and afterwards continue to prove exactly what I'm saying, you're not scumhunting, you're not looking for motivations, you haven't stated a single read of our push on you but just stated we 'Give you something for Equinoxs slot', you're avoiding taking stances and instead you're spending time just filling the thread with quote strips to try and seem as if you're contributing.

Empire, I have already read through a lot of those games of Tierce in the past and I don't disagree at all, I think there's a severe lack of in-depth thought process from her this game which matches her scum-game where she puts together considerably weaker cases and her case on Piggy matches that. I'm not at all opposed to their lynch but I still am slightly more confident in Voided flipping mafia (Though their lack of really looking at each other and Voideds town-read that I don't get on Sixty and Sixtys avoidance on commenting on Voided point heavily towards them both being mafia here). The fact that they claim to have a town-read on you but need meta proof from you rather than anyone else as Tammy points out is actually a relatively strong scum-tell as it means that really have no even somewhat decently strong town reads which I don't believe for a second coming from Tierce.

PS: read empires case because it's much better than this, and sorry were both wallers

You guys missed the memo, inside a hydra you're meant to have a waller and a troll (or an inactive) not two wallers. It's why I have to put up with Faraday.

[Justin Timberlake]

All dogs go to Heaven.

[Justin Timberlake]

Empire if you have ever played with Tiere or Vi you would have the same exact reaction. They do not play like that

I've played with both and that wasn't even close to my reaction. Mine was a lot more "Does this mean that Voided is flipping town or does it mean that they're gambiting as scum partners, the mod better get online soon". Faraday seems to think the exact same that it's 'fake' by you though.

I'll probably sit down and look at your scum-meta to work out if the tonal issue all game is something or not.

[Justin Timberlake]

I wonder if I can turn 'Sexyback' into a song about 'Sixty'?

[Justin Timberlake]

Empire, here's the scum games of Mehdi that I've found; Open 443, Mico 5, Micro 4. I've only skim read them so far but his tone there is very mechanical and lacks emotion completely which matches his play here - that said in those games he's a lot more straight forward with what his reads are and willing to take stances which he's done less of this game. I'll need to relook in more depth later because my heads hurting now but Faraday thinks Sixty - Soul are cross-bussing.

Still really hoping that Sixtys blitz hammer on Voided was a gambit rather than a jump at a mslynch.

[Justin Timberlake]

You literally mention Voided once

What the fuck was that hammer.

And yeah this is fake. I'd expect oversoul to be much more WTF as town. They probably mentioned it in the scum qt.

Told ya they were cross bussing Regfan. (I think it's far more likely Sixty cut their losses and took a mislynch rather than were morons and threw the game away for their team. Although it was prob over anyway. Wonder what that mans for their scumteam?)

[Justin Timberlake]

Lol. That would be so funny.

[Justin Timberlake]

Though I do like replacing into easy wins.

[Justin Timberlake]

Though I do like replacing into easy wins.

^not saying this is one as that'd jinx us.

[Justin Timberlake]

Sixty hammered. Absta fake hammered.

[Justin Timberlake]

Well 412 isn't particularly convincing anyway by itself, especially with scumdaytalk. So probably not. It's fine anyway, we got a scumclaim.

[Justin Timberlake]

No, I didn't mean I think you're scum. I meant that post by itself wouldn't be a convincing reaction. Given the nature of events it makes you town but it wouldn't have without the scumclaim. So...etc, I guess?

[Justin Timberlake]

Sixty claimed scum by hammering you. So I'm serious.

[Justin Timberlake]

I wasn't (and still am not) a fan of you basically giving Piggy a free pass for voting me

Why would you think that was remotely serious? (I thought asking if it was scummy was townish, though)

[Justin Timberlake]

...you're reaaaaaally pushing it, yknow that?

On the other hand. OOGIE BOOGIE GHOST!

[Justin Timberlake]

Piggy's Canadian though. They've got no sense of humour.

[Justin Timberlake]

This is ridiculous. Townreads are the easiest thing to fabricate as scum when everyone else is Town--and you and I know quite well how to pick up on Towntells. We were trying to build solid Townreads that we could trust the game on without tipping our hand too soon. Same thing as in Reverse Mafia: we needed seven strong Townreads, so we focused on that and then went through the necessary flips.

I don't believe that this is the only thing you have to say about my wall-of-thoughts-and-reads at all. You've literally ignored taking a stance on us despite the fact that you know my meta better than most and probably have a decent grasp of Faradays meta too (Though his trolling really is just him being a cunt). And while I do still cling onto the little shred of hope that Voided will flip mafia it's very very unlikely to happen given his reaction towards the hammer and his posts after it and I think you'd know that so your 'want to look at reactions again once we know Voideds flip' comes across as incredibly fake. Not to mention the fact that you never took a stance whatsoever but randomly hammered Voided when there was pressure coming towards you for entirely self-preservation reasons and neither of you are bad enough players as town to know that random-hammering is a big no-go especially hammering someone you 'have no stance on' prior to it.

Reg explain the meta more. I'm fairly sure I fence sit more as scum then town so saying the opposite doesn't work well (that and I see a bigger easier difference to spot between my current play and other town play so it's strange you're missing it in your meta reading). Along with why only skim my scum games (or only mention them)? The entire meta thing on me is really weak.

I skimmed them because I had a horrible headache and a lack of real time to sit in and do the reading and stated I was planning on reading them in much greater detail later (Probably sometime in the next few hours) but I said all that in Post 402 so this just comes across as you attempting to chip away de-crediting us by saying 'the meta is weak!' when I haven't even had a chance to go through it properly. And mentioning the links were so Empire could have a chance to read them too so we could actually talk about it properly rather than with less than full information.

[Justin Timberlake]

Sixty you're getting lynched next. How does that make you

feel

?

[Justin Timberlake]

(Tammy was obvtown anyway. She's much more bitchy as town)

[Justin Timberlake]

Regfan + Faraday, I am pretty sure you guys never read me right when I am town and you are proving my point by thinking I would bus Sixty.

I'm not even joking, bussing is so unorthodox in this type of open that it has become orthodox. It is fuckin dumb and I find it offensive you think I would do it as scum.

More later. A lot of classes today

lol except sixty weren't getting lynched so it'd be more distancing than bussing but OK

[Justin Timberlake]

Sixty you're getting lynched next. How does that make you

feel

?

Delighted!

We don't need to be alive to win this, and Vi won't be around much (if at all) for the next week plus. I'm obviously not happy, but I'm not about to throw a bitch fit in the thread, as that will only distract from what is important regarding Those Who Must Not Be Lynched. It's a Nightless game, so we can trust capable players (namely Tammy/Empire) to do the purging that needs to be done without dying halfway through. Don't forget our Townreads and carry on.

(Puppies are still better than Boring Ass Vanilla Cats.)

'We don't need to be alive to win this' I stopped reading there.

[Justin Timberlake]

Regfan + Faraday, I am pretty sure you guys never read me right when I am town and you are proving my point by thinking I would bus Sixty.

I'm not even joking, bussing is so unorthodox in this type of open that it has become orthodox. It is fuckin dumb and I find it offensive you think I would do it as scum.

More later. A lot of classes today

But Mehdi's the one that voted sixty? So it'd not have to be you bussing?

Also where has regfan misread you as town? When have I?

[Justin Timberlake]

Regfan + Faraday, I am pretty sure you guys never read me right when I am town and you are proving my point by thinking I would bus Sixty.

I'm not even joking, bussing is so unorthodox in this type of open that it has become orthodox. It is fuckin dumb and I find it offensive you think I would do it as scum.

More later. A lot of classes today

lol except sixty weren't getting lynched so it'd be more distancing than bussing but OK

FUCK YOU

Those were the very words that came out of YOUR fuckimg hydra mouth. You were having a "convo" with reg saying that Sixty and I were cross bussing.

Do you want me to quote it? Stop trying to slander our name when it was you who fucking said it.

Are you going to do your spastic rage thing again in the hope to look town? It won't work. By very definition it's distancing if it's not successful. You fucking idiot.

[Justin Timberlake]

Hey Oversoul. Where's your reads? Where's your content?

[Justin Timberlake]

Why did you leave when I asked you for content. Come on, insults are easy. Fabricating reads are hard.

[Justin Timberlake]

And while I've skimmed some of your games I wasn't involved in, no, I don't have a particularly good ability of reading you, at least in early Days. Like Empire (and like me), you quickly lose motivation as scum, and that is one of my main tools in nailing such players. It is hard to muster motivation even when you know you need to. Having my four/five Townreads means I don't have to worry about you at all; it's Nightless, which means you won't die, which means you'll have plenty of opportunities to show you're actually working as Town; one mega post of reads isn't enough, but you'll either keep it up or not.

Being 'unconfident' in reading me is one thing that I can understand at times, not stating a read at all is a different story, you're saying you didn't mind my reads and thought process post as town / scum or that you disagreed / agreed with my points on others in the time you spent reading it? Also out of curiosity what scum games of mine have you read through and no being a SK sort of role in Vi's game doesn't count as scum.

I haven't revealed preliminary opinions on the reactions because I have hardly done more than skim through them (and your wall). There's no Night, I'm in no rush. The hammer was very much not-random, though.

Vi gets so few chances to trollhammer.

We have our set of Townreads, we don't need the rest. You seem to agree with our set of designated Townreads, so while you may disagree on the execution (i.e. our hammer), the plan itself should be reading sound. This setup only needs four people cleared as Town; if everyone agrees not to lynch those, the others can be lynched until we get two scum flips.

If you haven't done the reading into it due to time constraints or relaxation over the amount of time there is available to do it in then you could just say that, stating 'until the flip' makes it sound like you think Voided is flipping anything other than town after his post-hammer reaction. And while I very much understand the logic of "I have X town-reads, X correct town-reads alive at the end-game is autowin" you know very well that isn't how it works, it's not just correctly reading three other people as town that's needed, it's surviving or at least getting a solid fourth town-read, then it's making sure that everyone understands and agrees with all the town-reads and make sure they don't get overly paranoid of themselves. Long story short while you can say "PoE means we hammer freefully!" it's bullshit and you know as much so your reasoning behind the blitz hammer really really doesn't work and I don't think the hammer was something that was 'non-random' or agreed upon but rather something that Vi did because he saw the no way to get around the meta-case. In fact I'll probably check your online activity around that time (Between Empires post and the hammer) because if I'm right you weren't online at all and I don't think Vi would random hammer there as town without confronting you but can see him doing so as scum very much. Think he did a similar thing in DEFCON? I might need to recheck that too.

I do very much agree with the Cerulean and Jesse reads and to a slightly lesser degree with Absta too. I think Thors town but wouldn't bet the game on him.

Regfan + Faraday, I am pretty sure you guys never read me right when I am town and you are proving my point by thinking I would bus Sixty. I'm not even joking, bussing is so unorthodox in this tpe of open that it has become orthodox. It is fuckin dumb and I find it offensive you think I would do it as scum.

I know Faraloser has commented on this already but I actually want a much bigger explanation and Post 455 really doesn't give that to me although elements of it does feel somewhat genuine but I rather not attempt to base a read on you solely of 'genuine frustration' because I think you can fake that to a degree. So lets go through this 1) When in the past have either of us misread you because from memory I've played 10? games where we were both town and I've read you correctly in 9 out of those 10 with the one exception being where I had a scum-read on your predecessor and Faradays saying he doesn't remember misreading you. 2) You're stating that this game is 'proof' that we can't read you correctly - what have you specifically done in this game that can be really attributed to your meta and reading of your meta, hunting into Mehdi, not you. 3) You state that you have 'discussed' the game with Medhi at times and have 'logs' but if that's the case then what's the massive need for you to 'catch-up' and provide content, if you've been discussing reads and thoughts than his posts would contain your thoughts too but that's not the case. So no, Faradays point about 'you' specifically not being the person bussing Sixty is actually correct. 4) Instead of 'raging' and getting upset actually speak logically with us, state your reads, your content and catch up thoughts and our read on Sixty is obvious if you're reading the game at all.

[Justin Timberlake]

Went back and looked at DEFCON and it's a differentish situation.

Tierce, I checked the time difference thingy and Ceruleans cases were posted at 1AM on whatever time setting Faraday has put this on here with the hammer coming at 2AM which is 13-14 hours ago and it says that it's 3;30pm in Portugal now so if I have that all right it'd have been roughly 2am at the time unless my math is making me look dumb. I really don't think you'd have been online discussing 'okay quick hammer' there at all. Really think it was just a Vi alone decision.

Reading into Medhis scum games in depth will have to wait until tomorrow, exhausted and can't keep eyes open any longer.

[Justin Timberlake]

Oversoul m8 calm down or you'll give yourself a heartattack. I'll respond later in a civil manner as i'm a serious and dedicated player. Also tierce's posts or logic make no sense in a realistic mafia game. Staying alive and trying to protect those town reads makes more sense. Actually the whole thing is stupid what the fuck am i doing

[Justin Timberlake]

The hammer sucked monkey testes. That said, the play is fairly reminiscent of their play in Reverse Mafia which was a not dissimilar setup mentality.

Them being in the game as opposed to out of the game is fairly different.

their SUPER TOWN PLAN relies on their reads being sheeped after death or something. when if they were town they'd see that acting like a fucking parama wannabe is not a way to get listened to. I don't think they'd have failed to account for the damage the quickhammer would have caused if town and voided was town.

[Justin Timberlake]

I haven't read the thread completely so even if I did present reads I am sure you'd fucking twist it an spin them to fit your own needs. I had already planned on leaving BEFORE you even responded so don't give me that crap that I am leaving when you asked me for reads. I'm not fake raging this is legitimate anger. I don't expect this from you or Regfan. Yes Mehdi voted but that doesn't mean I had no involvement. It's a fucking hydra. He asked me if it was okay to vote Sixty and I said yes. Do you want me to show you our hydra logs because I will do if it will stop you from acting all high and mighty like this.

Have you ever seen a game where a hydra could post logs? why are you voting sixty b/c the reason presented is actually really weak by mehdi.

Post your reads

If you really want a read from me Farday it's that I think you are scum if Sixty is scum. You are twisting my words in a way that I have never seen from your town play and you are being an asshole about on top of it. Your words about us being scum belies that you somehow "know" for a fact that Sixty is scum. You are tryin to fucking tie us to a sinking ship hence all of your twisting of words.

where did I 'twist your words'? which of these posts does that? Come on, stop getting MAD. Read my posts and you'll see I'm doing no such thing. you decided to argue semantic bullshit w/r/t bussing/distancing.

Spoiler: Interactions

Regfan + Faraday, I am pretty sure you guys never read me right when I am town and you are proving my point by thinking I would bus Sixty.

I'm not even joking, bussing is so unorthodox in this type of open that it has become orthodox. It is fuckin dumb and I find it offensive you think I would do it as scum.

More later. A lot of classes today

Regfan + Faraday, I am pretty sure you guys never read me right when I am town and you are proving my point by thinking I would bus Sixty.

I'm not even joking, bussing is so unorthodox in this type of open that it has become orthodox. It is fuckin dumb and I find it offensive you think I would do it as scum.

More later. A lot of classes today

lol except sixty weren't getting lynched so it'd be more distancing than bussing but OK

Regfan + Faraday, I am pretty sure you guys never read me right when I am town and you are proving my point by thinking I would bus Sixty.

I'm not even joking, bussing is so unorthodox in this type of open that it has become orthodox. It is fuckin dumb and I find it offensive you think I would do it as scum.

More later. A lot of classes today

lol except sixty weren't getting lynched so it'd be more distancing than bussing but OK

FUCK YOU

Those were the very words that came out of YOUR fuckimg hydra mouth. You were having a "convo" with reg saying that Sixty and I were cross bussing.

Do you want me to quote it? Stop trying to slander our name when it was you who fucking said it.

Regfan + Faraday, I am pretty sure you guys never read me right when I am town and you are proving my point by thinking I would bus Sixty.

I'm not even joking, bussing is so unorthodox in this type of open that it has become orthodox. It is fuckin dumb and I find it offensive you think I would do it as scum.

More later. A lot of classes today

But Mehdi's the one that voted sixty? So it'd not have to be you bussing?

Also where has regfan misread you as town? When have I?

Hey Oversoul. Where's your reads? Where's your content?

Why did you leave when I asked you for content. Come on, insults are easy. Fabricating reads are hard.

i also don't think i've been shy in calling sixty scum? why wouldn't I believe they're going to flip scum?

p.s. and the person you're voting quickhammered someone. why aren't you convinced they're scum?

Let me ask you this question, what is your opinion of Sixty if Voided flips mafia?

N/A. he's town. sixty are scum and he's not scum w/ them due to response to real hammah


quotes b/c you said I was like MOI

[Justin Timberlake]

Just fucking lock this already!

Won't it just be instant night? well i suppose it might be briefly locked

[Justin Timberlake]

McQueen is particularly special. Up there with such mods as Espeonage.

[Justin Timberlake]

Vote: Sixty

[Justin Timberlake]

What do you think either of us are being stubborn about? (It's not the word I'd have used to describe the situation at all.)

Your words about us being scum belies that you somehow "know" for a fact that Sixty is scum. You are tryin to fucking tie us to a sinking ship hence all of your twisting of words.

Can you explain this, too? When you seem fairly sure Sixty is scum (Due to your instant vote) then why is Oversoul surprised I'm so vehment? It's also fairly clear I suspected you before the hammer so I don't see how 'I'm trying you to a sinking ship' makes sense. (Also doesn't the fact he called them a 'sinking ship' indeed show he also *thinks their scum*, thus accusing me of some sort of perspective slip is weird.

[Justin Timberlake]

I know nothing about your meta as I haven't researched it yet. You were talking to Regfan. Surely that can't be hard to work out. (Well I skimmed your ISO's and saw you were vote shy but he said it was something that happened regardless so w/e)

[Justin Timberlake]

You seriously can't tell who's who? Um. Regfan's the one posting all the walls? Duh?

[Justin Timberlake]

Holy shit. Yeah. Sorry. That post was far too serious for me. I'll try and tone it down a bit.

[Justin Timberlake]

Look what you guys have done, you've made Faraday actually post seriously, idiots. Now he'll think his opinion is worth something.

There's a fourth Townread there who isn't us and you know it (also @Thor 462). That's why I'm not particularly bothered about being lynched.

Yes, but the fact that Jesse wasn't in your original list and was actually in your list of 5 that you wanted 'bullets at' (Though I think that bullets list was more of a hate their play more than alignment thing) makes me think you didn't have a town-read or consider him originally and just threw him in later. Also let me make sure I understand you correctly. You saw us replace in, you saw we had a scum-read on you, you saw Empire pushing on you, you saw Empire create a big meta case on you, you saw Tammy put forward a big play based case on you and you were both online. And instead of posting anything replying to the cases or responding to them you decided 'We shall quickhammer Voided' with the mindset that anyone that isn't one of your 3-4 town-reads being hammered is fine and that you will be alive to prevent these town reads from being lynched? I don't believe that for a second, you'd have known quick-hammering like that would sign your death warrant especially given that none of this 'plan' was brought up or talked about in-thread before that.

It is weak. There's a difference between a small bit of good content and a small bit of just bad content. I still do want clarification on how I assert more as scum (last I checked I had 0 scum reads except for bussing until lylo in one of my scum games, was scum for two days in another and didn't really convince anyone and just played weak, and then open 443 which is the only one I could see I asserted somewhat even though I still got lynched day 1).

See. I don't even know what you're attempting to argue about (Yet you're someone saying that

we're

the ones being stubborn over something minor), I've stated twice that I haven't read fully into your meta and want to do it in depth and will explain everything I find about it when I do it in depth but you're continuing to try and call it 'weak' and 'bad content' when it's not even finished and that's something I've openly admitted.

[Justin Timberlake]

You said I'm more assertive as scum. I said I think it's the exact opposite. My argument is the meta given so far is bad when it's that different from the meta I understand myself to have (I'm not arguing lack of meta reasoning I'm arguing how I think reasoning given so far is wrong).

Don't think I said 'assertive', said that you were stating reads. But this point is just getting stupid, you'll just have to wait until I have enough time for meta today.

I'm actually not even sure what you're trying to say here. But if N were scum he wouldn't... "suspect" you... there's only players who he can make targets out of. And if N were scum and you were town why would N try to start something against you? I can't think of a single possible way that would end in N's favor. And if you two were on a scum team why would N start something against you. Does anyone honestly believe N would be able to play this game well enough for it to not end poorly for one of you two? So I'm really truly split 50/50 on which scenario I think is accurate. Providing, of course, N flips scum.

I can kind of see where you're getting this from but logically it makes very little sense given the conclusion you're trying to grab from it. I'll explain; If you think that N-Scum wouldn't push on Thor-Town because he's not 'mslynchable' or a 'target' then you don't think that being the case is all that likely, similarly if you think that N-Scum wouldn't push on Thor-Scum as much because 'it wouldn't end well' and you don't see reasoning behind why he'd do it then it'd make that situation unlikely for you as well. So all up if anything your entire point about their connection and interaction should make you think N is town, not that N is scum maybe with Thor.

[Justin Timberlake]

What's the Lassie? Timmy's stuck down a well? No? No? You're telling us Sixty are scum! Good girl Lassie!

[Justin Timberlake]

This is the part where we do something impossibly cool and turn the game around. ...hopefully.

Unvote: Soul2277
Vote to Hammer: Voidedmafia

^ This doesn't sound like a hammer of 'Hey I have a master plan, nbd got 4 town reads and I aint afraid to show it I'm sexy and I know it'. I mean...turn the game around what?

[Justin Timberlake]

Their 'plan' involves playing the fucking game normally btw. It's 'I don't want to lynch my townreads'. It's almost like how you'd play any nightless game. Holy fuck. I even mentioned a similar type thing to Regfan on AIM, about if we had enough townreads to POE this. No one in their right mind thinks 'I'm okay being lynched because I have the minimum required townreads'

[Justin Timberlake]

I don't understand the argument between Soul and Justin, so I'm going to ignore it. I don't have a scumread on either of you, so I think it might be two townies arguing while the mafia sit back and do nothing.

Do you think Soul are town? Why?

I would assume here that if Sixty were scum they listed on of their buddies, who they thought was the most overt pro-town player in the game, and another filler to look like this is a pro-town idea.

Why would they necessarily list one of their buddies? (I would specifically not mention my buddies for something like this, or I'd put both in. I'm cool though)

[Justin Timberlake]

(although calling you an idiot wasn't cool).

He started it

[Justin Timberlake]

Finished reading through Micro 4 properly, the reasoning behind the reads he stated were extremely weak with the logic being very paper-thin such as "X is scumhunting so I think town" "Y has town tone so I think town" his only scum-read was his partner who he bussed upon replacing in, rest of the game he didn't do all that much scumhunting, just filler-posting really. Also sometime to note is that in Micro 5 he wasn't actually mafia, was recruited cult and was recruited late game from what the posts inside Micro 4 states so this isn't really a game to use for scum-meta, with that said he stated that he thought Tim was the cult leader (cultists don't know leader) but still tried bussing him for town cred in Post #194 of the game. Can use up until D4 as town meta though; His reads have slightly more meat and logic attached to them and his questions and posts show a great more detail of thought process and effort behind them. Lastly Open 443 reads are actually considerably better than his other scum-game, a lot more effort into it but his follow up into his scum-reads and his change of reads are very unnatural, something to note; he initially town-read his partner, then turned it around and ended up pushing on him at the end - some of it is likely due to being forced to due to the open game nature but think there's a pattern of willingness to buss here. Probably need to take a look at one or two of his town games in slightly more detail tomorrow too then re-read his play this game to finish it up. Empire, you should give all of these a read - well particularly Micro 4 and Open 443.

PEdited by a fuckload of Faraday posts. Faraday, get on AIM. Plus stop spamming the thread up, you already have more posts than everyone combined nearly.

[Justin Timberlake]

Someone hammer.

[Justin Timberlake]

Unvote[/b

Could someone vote Sixty for a minute. I just want to research something and would prefer they remain at L-1.

[Justin Timberlake]

unvote

[Justin Timberlake]

Yeah, Absta is likely town.

Are we lynching N yet - feels like we were lynching N.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV58fxXO ... re=related

[Justin Timberlake]

Absta just vote Sixty plz. They're ~around~. Literally claiming scum.

[Justin Timberlake]

Vote: Sixty

AND THEY CALL IT PUPPY LOVE!

[Justin Timberlake]

As scum I acknowledge that you are right and will be less forceful in my anger towards you but when I am town yo ubetter hope you fucking lock your doors at night or you don't play a game with me immediately after you mislynch me because I WILL hold it agianst you

LOL

(I'm not locking my door b/c I have a SCUMREAD on you)

[Justin Timberlake]

if you don't think regfan's town you're not very good at mafia (general comment maybe)

[Justin Timberlake]

W/e I['ll stop being deliberately antagonistic.

Regfan + Faraday, I am pretty sure you guys never read me right when I am town and you are proving my point by thinking I would bus Sixty.

I'm not even joking, bussing is so unorthodox in this type of open that it has become orthodox. It is fuckin dumb and I find it offensive you think I would do it as scum.

More later. A lot of classes today

I mention cross bussing before this and you say this. So I say it's more like distancing. Instead of arguing the semantics since they're pretty interchangable terms how is my fucking meaning not clear? Are you seriously unable to grasp the meaning behind my words? That you're crossvoting but not making an actual effort to get each other lynch. You calling us liars and shit like that just makes like you're turn the thread into a drama fest b/c I nailed it.


The whole times we've misread you thing is irrelevant to me but you can't just ignore hydra games and stuff like that to suit your purpose. Plus I mean, uh, we (Or I?) eventually read you right in GvE despite your scummy predecessor.

Anyway.
*Show me where you're twisting your words/Explain your scumread?
*Explain how I'm trying to tie you to a sinking ship when I had a scumread on you and sixty before they went and parama'd. Considering you both seem pretty convinced too, and were voting them beforehand why do you think trying to find connections from them is remotely scummy?

[Justin Timberlake]

Who cares? We can just figure out who Sixty's partner is tomorrow.

I WAS BEING ANTAGONISTIC.

[Justin Timberlake]

Oversoul can you succintly explain your town read on N. (Or if it's a joint read either of you can do it)

[Justin Timberlake]

His last few posts have been all fairly shit though. Don't you think?

The thing you talked about is something I've faked as scum. If you're above a certain competency i'd not really say it's particularly townish.

[Justin Timberlake]

Stranger in a Strange land, btw. Not Hitchikers. You should hammer Sixty for that mistake. It's only fair.

[Justin Timberlake]

You're wrong. Are you really on basing the scum read on OS because you think I sounded fake after Sixty came in and hammered?

??? The answer to this is fairly obviously no.

You and Regfan's play here is making me really question whether or not I'll want to actively play with you two again.

Oh. I'm heartbroken. Why's that? Is it because we don't match your high standards or because I called OS a fucking idiot (after being told to fuck off )? (I assume this is mehdi, because if not OS is referring to himself in the 3rd person although it's not signed. Doesn't matter anyway!)

[Justin Timberlake]

I've seen him flip out as town too. Him trying to make it less than Null is silly. IIRC he was pretty angry in brightest day as scum(cult) too.

[Justin Timberlake]

Hammer now before CFJ isn't around for ages. Go read the part where they hammered out of blatant self preservation and have been avoiding the thread today and posting elsewhere despite being at L-1 here. They've given up. Thanks in advance for hammering.

[Justin Timberlake]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php?a ... 3&sr=posts ---------------[]

[Justin Timberlake]

Where did they admit they were scum?

I didn't actually say they had it's just implied strongly by the things I stated. I mean Cerulean + us are telling you they're as confirmed as scum can be in a vanilla set-up. Don't keep us waiting any longer. Thor's been lame enough.

Pedit: Wheee

[Justin Timberlake]

I wonder what they're gonna flip?

[Justin Timberlake]

That's a silly read (I mean I think Abstta's town but that's a bad reason to declare someone town. Anyone insta hammering on someone else's say so would be weird, even if it he eventually kinda did)

[Justin Timberlake]

(Plus F-16's first post is actually kind of boring. I mean he talks about a null read, that's how boring it is)

[Justin Timberlake]

Then why are you calling us scum? Because Mehdi is acting mechanical like he does normally? Asking questions? Like he does normally? And I specifically said OS there for a reason. Yes that was me talking in third person.

I don't think any of the above is scummy. That'd be silly.

Please quote where your meta is being spun?

Was it here?

I've seen him flip out as town too. Him trying to make it less than Null is silly. IIRC he was pretty angry in brightest day as scum(cult) too.

Where I say it's a null tell? Is calling you raging a null tell, (when it is) spinning your meta oversoul?

So now we're 'spinning your meta' and 'twisting your words' (which I've asked for and you haven't shown)

[Justin Timberlake]

Vote: SOUL

Think it's N/Soul as the final 2 scum.

Cerulean are literally ++ town.
Jessie is ++ town.
Think Thor is fairly town
Think Absta slot was towntelling hard with the thread lock and lots of other stuff.

(Also have a suspicion Tierce put no buddies in her TOWNLIST but that's just me being a cool guy guesswork guy)

1 scum and 3 lynches. Think we can DO THIS.

[Justin Timberlake]

I read your wall. That's not remotely twisting your words or your meta? I said it was a null tell. I mean Empire linked to a more recent example in Chrono Trigger anyway? Did you actually click the links or are you trying to meet your daily buzz words quota.

[Justin Timberlake]

What's being a traitor got to do with anything? It's shows you're perfectly capable of raging as scum doesn't it? Do we need to find an open nightless game before we meet your expectations?

[Justin Timberlake]

Relax. Who do you think the final 2 scum are?

[Justin Timberlake]

Oh. I forgot Piggy was in the game, actually. I should check her interactions with N/Soul since I think the final 2 scum are in that trio.

[Justin Timberlake]

well my reservation on it being a bus was that it's such a bad case surely you'd find a better reason to vote a buddy. But I thought the same in abarat so maybe not. Okay, let me go read the shinori case. (maybe)

[Justin Timberlake]

Honestly Oversoul getting mad at me seems genuine, but I'd probably get mad at me too on occasion regardless of alignment. (P.s. I thought you were scum for the way you voted Sixty and the way they responded to the vote.)

[Justin Timberlake]

Jt sure it's weak. I already called him a toen read and was just adding to it (that's the other read I disagree with OS on). Expand on Thor town (yes I remember the reads list but I still want you to explain it more including how his day 2 play was town).

I would expect Sixty's buddies to vote him given the opportunity.

[Justin Timberlake]

It says nightless in the fucking title.


^ mod delete the duplicate above if you want

[Justin Timberlake]

.___________.

Anyway. I vaguely follow your train of thought Soul but don't think it's convincing? Are you saying there's a motive for scum to stall the wagon or something? Like. Absta was being replaced, Sixty won't self vote. 5 votes to lynch, only 7 available. Don't think wagon speed is a big indicator.

[Justin Timberlake]

N doesn't do anything, though. And he was waiting for them to post before hammering as opposed to pushing a different wagon.

Anyway going to go meta piggy for a bit. Want to see if she's ballsy scum.

[Justin Timberlake]

Yeah. I think Jessie would probably not think a counterwagon was viable, so don't find that scummy. Did Jessie find N scummy Day 1, though? That'd be at least somewhat interesting.

How is she ballsy this game. She's posted awkwardly but that's similar to her scum start in futurama. And she's been pretty passive after day 1 (reminiscent of her micro play in a past zoro micro).

'Would it be scummy if' was sort of ballsy. She does that type of thing as scum so it's null. (Well based on a quick skim of Reverse she did something along those lines so she's possibly scum definitely)

^ me

[Justin Timberlake]

Home from cricket, will read up on everything in about an hour, want to shower and grab dinner first.

[Justin Timberlake]

Oh jesus christ, 10 pages in one day, if 5 of them are Faraday spamming I'm going to force him out of the hydra.

Instead of a big wall that no one other than Empire will read I'll try and cut down my thoughts about it all into smaller posts. Post 545 pretty much confirms absta as town. Only one reason I can think of him having to do it and it with the setup this is it wouldn't be the case as scum. Plus I don't think he'd be a big enough cunt to fake that tell as scum and replace out forcing someone else to take a scum slot in a game that scum can never really win.

[Justin Timberlake]

The question about Piggy to Ceru and the 'there's a follow-up-question' does read as a town-tell, shows legit thought process, the comments on Voided stating he's scummy / is scum mean

this post was made days ago?

If that's the case why wasn't it posted as soon as you could do it - I know you stated that you had troubles at some point but surely that didn't stick around for 2-3 days. Really need the underlined answered, it's a big big big important factor.

About Absta there: While I've seen scum play 'illogically' before and thus do things that don't always have scum motivation attached to them I can follow Abstas plan and thought process inside his 'vote; x', 'they omgused and i think town would' 'unvote'. This is all pointless now though as his replace out makes him obvtown. About Thor there: I think bitterness is either a null-tell for Thor or a town-tell if not that as I've seen him act 'bitter' as town a lot. About Empire there: No, his meta-based reads are generally very spot on, I wouldn't say that they'd be 100% accurate but I'd trust them more times than not by a long margin. And I was more confident in Voidedmafia than Sixtymafia - felt the case and his actions were far scummier though was pretty confident both were mafia.

Not understanding what this: "why would that change your mind about anything?" is asking.

If you really want me to grab our game history and point out in detail which games we've played and my reads on you I will and I'm fairly sure there's more games that you listed but I did read you spot on in Maiden and that wasn't with partners help, same goes in Scummies though a lot was to do with predecessor, read you right in Flame Wars and never deviated to a scum-read, was insistent you were town and should not be lynched. G v E was the only time I've misread you and it had to do with having a strong strong scum read ony our predecessor more than your play specifically. Also read you right in 2-3 of your games I spec'ed.

[Justin Timberlake]

All of the above post has to do with Oversouls catch up post in Post 569 by the way.

Biggest issue I'm having with Oversouls 'rage' posts is that I don't understand how he can be 'legitimately' annoyed or frustrated with me at all - I haven't responded in any manner other than fairly calm and collected regardless of how frustratingly bad his posts have been. Nor have I commented at all on saying that his play here = his meta scum play - said multiple times only really metaing on Medhi and still have a bit to do on that. Answer to the underlined in the above post is pretty much going to be decisive of my read on them at the moment though I think, that combined with Mehdis meta analysis.

[Justin Timberlake]

Jesse is there a reason you didn't respond or comment on my Post 534 explaining how your reasoning should lead to N-Town and not N-Scum. You commented on Thors post above it and state that you still have a scum-read on N in Post 644 so clearly you haven't 'agreed' with me on how your logic is flawed so want to explain to me how I have it wrong? Also you said there was things in our catch up post you wanted to comment on - it never happened.

I really need to read Post 646 from Piggy again later, my mind just glossed over it. Someone (Probably Empire) urge me to do this if I haven't in the next few hours.

Thor, I know you've probably explained this at some point either in one of your responses towards Soul briefly or in the future (Page 28sih to now) but can you explain your town-read on N for me please? If it's just 'He said lets have them talk' I don't find that to be a tell at all really, think it's sort of a fillerish line. I'm gathering that your inital reasoning and vote on Jesse has to do with him joining you on N - I don't think 'joining a counterwagon' is a scum-tell, know where you're trying to come with it being one but think it's more likely Tierce told partners to vote her and not N.

Tammy, I think from Post 702 towards jesus christ to whenever your back-and-forth ends with Arthur is just you two being stubborn and wanting the other to answer their question before they answer the others question. I really don't see the 'tone' issue that you're talking about and his slots town re; Absta anyway, if you need more proof of that other than Abstas replace out literally being something that only comes from town then look at Sixtys 'gambit' towards Absta. I just got to his explanation in Post 729 okay he's without a fucking doubt town, Tammy, you might need to step back to see this but his reasoning for pushing you to out reads straight away makes a fuckload of sense. That being that he wants reads from YOU specifically and not the HYDRAS reads and making you answer straight away means you can't converse about it. It's pretty much a way for him to pressure you to get a read. It's very very town. Okay, if all that isn't enough to prove that you're wrong, think on this; he's stated he hasn't slept for 20 hours, he's stated that he hasn't had a chance to talk with F-16 in full depth about their thoughts yet and that F-16 has barely caught up so far, him not voting you but rather hunting and pressuring you to get a stronger read in the meantime makes a lot of sense.

I need to go through Sixtys ISO later and do some more interaction hunting. Need Oversoul / Jesse to answer questions asap too. I'll read Piggys post too and need one more read through on N. Right now though I'd bet the game on Cerulean / Deadpool / Thor all being town.

[Justin Timberlake]

Sure, I'm going to go make some dessert and then I'll go over it, probably in 30ish minutes, not much longer than that anyway - short story though is that very little of your 'case' on Thor are actually scum-tells and legitimate. I'll explain the strong-town-read on him too then.

In the meantime can you explain how your conversation with Oversoul went about your reads on Piggy / N / Jesse / Myself, by that I want to get a grasp of who had what read and reasoning and if the other agreed on it, disagreed or countered it with a different point.

[Justin Timberlake]

Tammy, you're letting emotion get in the way. Talk with Empire. Talk with him about Absta and his replace out, he'll work out what it's very very very likely about and will instantly agree the slots town for sure. The amount of Arthurs read that he's based on you initially 'dependant' on Thor is something you're exaggerating here. You can't compare his play here towards your play in terms of elaboration of thoughts and reads, he

just

replaced in and is stating he hasn't even read the whole thread properly yet, he's just given it a cursory glance and not to forget the fact that we don't have F-16s reads and discussion between hydra heads there.

There's no need to explain to him why he's wrong about you, F-16 will tell him or he'll work it out himself when he reads the thread properly.

Pedit; Stop and THINK about the replace out, he says 'I might

have to

replace out, let me think about this'. Just talk to Empire.

---

Soul, I see you having N listed as a null-read earlier and don't see any comment on his alignment after that all (Sorry if I've missed it) so what changed from the time where you had him as a null read towards now and by that I mean what exactly do you think are town-tells from him and what was brought up in your discussion with Oversoul about him to move to town. I also don't see you listing us as a strong town-read or implying that you had a town-read on us much in your posts, if anything your argument with me about the skim-read of your meta points to you having a slight scum-read on us so explain that for me too.

Here's why Thor is town without a doubt; his lack of Sixty vote yesterday was something that confused me somewhat, he was stating a scum-read on them but not voting and instead pushing on N. Now as scum this puts attention towards him for not voting on-wagon and 'pushing a counterwagon', not something I see Thor-Scum aiming on doing intentionally but also had issue seeing why Town-Thor would do it. *His explanation today that he was pushing on N to see who would jump and join him answers that, it makes a lot of sense and while I don't agree that Jesse joining him is a tell I get what he was after fairly well. It's a very town motivated plan.* Pretty sure he noticed the Absta replace out tell when I did too and don't think it's something scum would want to bring up and while his reads and thoughts this game for the most part I've actually agreed with, specifically the Voided-push. About your case on him:

Here's your case in Post 667.

A. Okay, you disagree with Jesse being scum for voting N and have a town read on Jesse. That doesn't make Thors scum read any less legitimate.

B. I do want his N-town-read explained more so this is a fine point. Not really a scum-tell against him.

C. Thor using beard as reasoning isn't a scum-tell, he does it nearly every game. If you find meta links that show him using beard more as scum than town then I'll consider this somewhat valid but until then this is pretty much saying 'You can't use gut!'.

D. Simply put this comes down to him not agreeing his reads and votes in big detail which is very similar to C. Voided vote was explained, whether it was explained when he voted or later is irrelevant only way that you can think it has even a bit of relevance is if you think him using beard is a scum-tell which means you have to do C. His unvote of Piggy is something I don't have an issue with at all, it was an early game vote and more information was provided after. His change of read on Absta I also have no issue with so really if you agree that he uses beard and gut in other games then how are any of these scum-tells?

E. *This is explained by the paragraph I have above*; His push on N wasn't a push on a scum-read, just to get reactions, his Jesse scum read is from that. Him not liking Sixty but not voting them was due to voting them would make no reaction test possible.

[Justin Timberlake]

D is meant to be 'explaining' and not 'agreeing'.

[Justin Timberlake]

You keep going on about Absta's towntells, but I personally think they're way too over the top and look fake to me.

I don't think any of abstas town-tells are over-the-top or forced at all. And how am I (And Thor) the only ones seeing that his replace out is obvobvtown.

You think Mehdi's meta points towards him being scum, I think it actually matches his town games more appropriately.

I haven't finished Medhis meta yet so can't really compare it to say it's his scum-meta or town-meta fully. Will soon.

I also don't understand how you're voting for Soul, but at the same time talking to them like they're town.

I'm trying to understand their thought-process and interactions as a hydra. The vote on them was done by Faraday not myself, you should be able to tell our posts apart fairly easily and I don't particularly mind it staying there until I get the answers and information I need from them - mostly from Oversoul.

[Justin Timberlake]

Jesse, can you post your notes for me?

[Justin Timberlake]

You can't compare his play here towards your play in terms of elaboration of thoughts and reads, he just replaced in and is stating he hasn't even read the whole thread properly yet, he's just given it a cursory glance and not to forget the fact that we don't have F-16s reads and discussion between hydra heads there.

Well every single arthur post is horrible so she has a point.

[Justin Timberlake]

(But they're town)

[Justin Timberlake]

Sigh w/e. Arthur's town because it looks to me like Absta was compromised with info or something. He's posting in other games and /inned to another game. The way he phrased his replace out and then followed up and didn't post last thoughts or anything while being active makes it seem like something like that. It's far more likely in this situation he's town replacing out.

[Justin Timberlake]

(I'm curious if that's what Thor thought too, re: the replace out)

[Justin Timberlake]

If you'd just skimmed the game properly you'd have seen she was town anyway. At least I didn't waste my team reading your back and forth.

[Justin Timberlake]

So. Also. Worth noting I think Soul are town and have since around the time I voted them. Well, at the very least I'm not sure they're scum. The wagons are interesting, though. I don't think scum are going to be voting their partner at this stage. (I also think they'd avoid pushing the same wagon if possible, but that's more so witch doctor bullshit. By pushing different wagons I'd say they hoped to lynch one, then the other townie trying to secure two mislynches since their back is up against the wall at the moment)

Waiting on a few things before I move my vote but I have a flair for the dramatic so I thought I'd say this. I'm probably lying anyone so everyone should ignore this post.

[Justin Timberlake]

meh, but I want them to talk more so they can incriminate other stuff

Yeah, I thought that was pretty town.

[Justin Timberlake]

(And I don't think it'd be 100% spoilerage, but maybe he picked up on something that influenced his reads or something. But w/e)

[Justin Timberlake]

Could you just dump your notes on everything? I'd like to see your thoughts on stuff.

[Justin Timberlake]

You can spoiler tag them if there's a lot.

[Justin Timberlake]

Just woke up, going to grab breakfast and then I'll go do the Piggy post reading and Sixty ISOing.

Soul are town, pretty much what I told Faraday was "If he attempts to claim the wall was all made in the past then he's lying as the latter end include him stating information about Voideds death and if it claims to have done it all recently then he's scum because the Equinox question makes zero sense with the current situation, so only way he'd be town is if 3/4 of it was done in the past and the rest being recent". And I don't think Oversoul would have made a wall like that and not have posted it as scum, as scum he'd be leaping to show he's done effort but the fact it wasn't posted for days means that the slots town.

Thor, eh. I understand what you're saying about N though I think I've seen scum do that before so I don't think standing back saying "Let them trap partners" is as big a town-tell as you're making out. Do think the slots town at the moment though but it's not a massively strong read, his post towards me saying that we're confusing him due to different conclusions on everything did read very genuine.

Oh I kind of just thought you were posting that you disagreed, here’s your mindset, over. It doesn’t really make sense to me and I actually don’t follow where you got that idea. My stance makes sense to me, it sounds like you comprehend it, but disagree. I pretty much thought that conversation was dead in the water. I also don’t know what I’m supposed to be commenting on from your catch-up post.

This doesn't make any sense? I don't think I could have made my post any clearer in fact about how your logic was flawed so you can't really just say "I disagree" towards it. Do you 1) Think N would attempt to mslynch and target Thor-Town as scum, answer you gave earlier was unlikely, right? 2) Think that N would attempt to buss and distance with Thor-Scum, answer you gave earlier was unlikely too, right? So if both 1 and 2 are unlikely then the more likely scenario would

have

to be that you thought N was town. Also really not getting your Thor vote, you said earlier in the game that he was the person scumhunting, questioning people and hunting for motivation the most, in fact you said that you think scum were 'buddying him' so the turn-around when he votes you and says that you 'fell' for his trap really isn't making sense whatsoever. Especially since before today the only scum-read was a connection to N which I explain above shouldn't make N scum and thus shouldn't make him scum due to it. Also very much do what Faraday said - we want the notes posted in full.

Also

Unvote.

[Justin Timberlake]

Just finished reading through Piggys Post 646, I think the whole talk about her not liking or being good at the start of games is genuine and true but I don't think it's that alignment related here at all. Same goes with her talk about liking to replace in.

The vote on Thor feels odd given that she's claiming it's process of elimination and then at the same time claiming that it's a strong thing that she wishes she would have brought up earlier. Not just that but the point about him staying on his RVS vote for so long isn't really a scum-tell and his vote on Cerulan wasn't a big scum-read that needed pushing and that read changed so not sure what she's trying to get at about that. The point about Thor / Sixty interactions might be the only one that holds an ounce of validity but I'll need to check that game to make sure she's not lying about their interaction or at least who started it. If Sixty started it in Reverse than it not happening here is completely null given Sixty being mafia.

I really don't like her 'third scum' section though, particularly Jesse in there, she states that she has a town-read on him and that it's strength changes constantly but reading through her ISO she's only ever stated a scum read on him and hasn't commented on him or anything by him since then.

---

Got through Sixtys ISO too. Still undecided on what her push on Piggy meant, initial gut reading was that she would've push on partner with such a bad case but looking back at it the fact that her vote in Post 79 put Piggy to L-1 might be due to thinking that Piggy was dead weight already and attempting to get some cred out of it. Interaction with Cerulean and Absta make them even more obvtown. Got one more thing to add here* but want to wait for something first.

[Justin Timberlake]

It's meant to say she wouldn't not she would've.

Empire, where's your head at right now?

[Justin Timberlake]

It doesn't matter if she'd choose to bus, she might have felt she had to bus? Piggy was at L-2 and she might have felt it'd look weird to avoid the wagon. The case is stretching to find as much shit as possible, so it could easily be trying to grab some of the cred with the first 3/4 people on the wagon.

The other part of it is they read Piggy successfully in Reverse, right? So here surely TOWNPUPPY would be expected to do it. (Or at the very least, late game if Piggy was lynched and they hadn't there might be questions asked).

[Justin Timberlake]

Empire, yeah, I'm in the process of re-examining Jesse too. I really haven't liked his play since we've played in, his vote on Thor is bad and he's avoiding discussing anything in any depth now, particularly his stances and reads. Plus his interaction and stance on Sixty is bad - take a look. I'd agree on N sounding genuine too.

Soul, so the bickering in Reverse was about a particular mechanic and not just reads? If so then the lack of it here means nothing at all. And I didn't think Tierce would be the bussing type in the setup but seriously take a look back at how it all occurred. She put forward the case when Piggy was at L-1, if scum is getting lynched D1 the partners have to look good out of it. So it's very possible she thought Piggy was fucked and decided she might as well get town cred and look good out of it; Faraday says that it's very likely it's an all town votes on Piggy beforehand and it's us/voided/thor/n so I'd agree there I think.

Pedited by Faraday I think lol.

[Justin Timberlake]

(Personally if I had played with someone as town and correctly identified them as scum, then the next game the roles were reversed I'd read the 'correctly' this game too, as I think it'd be more likely to give them a town read on me)

[Justin Timberlake]

(But you know I'd also not sacrifice myself instead of fighting the links so etc)

[Justin Timberlake]

Well really trying to discredit you as a scum strategy is dumb as no one thinks you're not obvtown. (Thor said this).

[Justin Timberlake]

MEHDI YOU'RE COOL OKAY. DON'T LET ANYONE TELL YOU DIFFERENT.

[Justin Timberlake]

Haha. I was going to ask you to read his and Piggys interactions next too.

Was talking with Faraday about it last night before I went to bed. Well not really 'talking' but leaving him offline messages for him to see when he got on.

[Justin Timberlake]

Here's my basic reservation on Piggy!scum. It's her push on Thor. In the games that I've read of her as scum, and I'll look again to make sure, but she was more a sheep and didn't go after the stronger players. I would imagine someone who has an awkward play style and a seemingly lack of confidence in her game to NOT go after a player like Thor.

What choices do you think she has other than to be reasonably agressive here? Scum need to actively push mislynches. I mean she could sheep cases on other townies but she has to last a while, as does her buddy. (3 more lynches to go). Her Thor caseis basically POE, anyway? Which is kind of easy to just give townreads without ever explaining why he's scum.

I'm not like 100% convinced she's scum or anything,so I guess I'll waitand see what what your research comes through with or take a peek myself. Also consider there are a fair few strong players in this game. POE (of her buddy) and her reads my dictate going after Thor.

[Justin Timberlake]

Vote: Piggy

GG.

[Justin Timberlake]

Jessie vote Piggy, please.

[Justin Timberlake]

If it makes it better I'm basing none of my reads on interactions with you!

^

[Justin Timberlake]

Jesses interactions towards Piggy:

In Post 155 Jesse states that Piggy isn't being genuine in explaining her behaviour. In Post 244 he states that he "actually thinks Sixty’s case on piggy did make sense and did have some merit." and then in Post 283 he states he's getting a town read from Piggy with no explanation, there's no stance or comment on her alignment after or before that at all, he really just ignores her slot and barely even recognizes it's in the game.

Piggys interactions towards Jesse:

In Post 138 Piggy states that Jesse needs to get into the game. In Post 161 votes him for his entrance post and calls it horrid, in Post 195 she asks why there are no more votes on him and what others reads on him are. In Post 295 which is her next post she moves her vote to absta without commenting on Jesse in it. She never mentions him again until Post 646 where she states she has a town read on him that is moving up and down the town strength scale with no explanation behind why or where the town read came from.

[Justin Timberlake]

Well Jesse doesn't work with N at all given his scum-read on N and N's vote on him. And other than Piggy and N I have strong town-reads on everyone. I don't particularly think Piggy and N are a likely scum-team but they're somewhat more likely than N and Jesse which makes Piggy the optimal lynch. Really though at the moment not seeing how it can be anything other than a Jesse and Piggy scum team.

Empire, you should join us.

[Justin Timberlake]

Did I stop existing? Why are you only talking to Empire?

Because he's the breadwinner and thus the only important one in your hydra.

[Justin Timberlake]

I don't really care if Jesse is the one who votes Piggy or not. At this point as long as Piggy is voted I'm happy.

Faraday on the other hand wants to get 'style points' by making scum buss into loss.

[Justin Timberlake]

Did I stop existing? Why are you only talking to Empire?

HEY TAMMY. You can vote Piggy but first I'm trying to make Jessie bus. Thoughts? (I want style points)

pedit: fuck you I can speak for myself

[Justin Timberlake]

I wasn't being serious Tammy. I'm just used to directing thoughts towards Empire, that's all.

[Justin Timberlake]

I'm not saying Sixty are a scum mastermind at all. What gives you that impression? (The case certainly isn't 'mastermind material' in fact I questioned the timing of the case and necessity of it when reading the game.)

[Justin Timberlake]

I mean you've got a low threshold for 'scum mastermind' if it involves bussing on page 4 or something.

[Justin Timberlake]

Tammy, I did look at that too, all of it matched for a scum-team. Here's Sixty - Jesse. I'm heading shopping now. I'll get to Piggy - Sixty when I get back.

Sixtys interactions with Jesse:

In Post 259 Sixty have Jesses name included in the group of five they want to die and in the quote section they state they find Post 232 from him to be not garbage and take him off the list due to it. In Post 432 they want Jesse added to the no-lynch list. So all up they talk about him a lot and about others interactions and stances on him but never really give him a real read until the end when they were confirmed to die.

Jesses interactions with Sixty:

In Post 206 Jesse gets a strong town read on Sixty due to them deconstruting quotes to hunt for motivation, something I don't agree they did. In Post 210 he states their logic feels town and thinks they're genuinely getting frustrated by peoples playstyles. In Post 244 he says the whole case on Sixty is contrived and that the case made sense and he agreed with parts of it. Attacks Cerulean for attacking Sixty - pretty bad with buzz word terms but fairly sure this is what chainsawing is. In Post 271 he says he can understand why people see him as a partner with Sixty. In Post 519 he says that Sixtys suggestion and plan is terrible, says that them adding him in later makes him lean scum on them and says he wouldn't mind hammering them but votes elsewhere. All up out of everything this direction of interaction is probably the weakest partnership wise. That said think it's possible that Sixty were expecting to be one of the two scum left standing at the end and they weren't expecting to die so quickly and thus I can see Sixtys partners town-reading them which works in this case.

[Justin Timberlake]

Piggys interaction with Sixty:

In Post 72 Piggy states she doesn't like dogs, feels like a weird distancing. You've pointed out how horrible her Post 81 is already but you missed one part, she says town then but in Post 138 she states town reads on nearly everyone and just leaves Thor and Sixty, says the scum read on Sixty is weaker and that's the extent of her explanation in that post. So it's scum read for being a dog, town read after that, scum read with no explanation. In Post 295 she moves to Absta and says she may be persuaded to Sixty and doesn't mention them again until Post 504 where she votes Sixty saying "kill the dogs", this is after they'd blitz hammered and the next day when they were at L-2. She always kept them as a 'FoS' but never really wanted to lynch them, it's very much scum distancing.

Too lazy to go into Sixtys to Piggy right now but it shouldn't be needed at this point, someone can hammer end this game.

[Justin Timberlake]

If we're adding stuff to it, she was spec'ing the thread about 3 hours ago but never came in and posted. Think she knows it's over.

[Justin Timberlake]

Thor, I know you're online and posting elsewhere, get in here and hammer this game.

[Justin Timberlake]

^_^~

[Justin Timberlake]

Regfan wtf is a ^_^~?

[Justin Timberlake]

Faraday, you're the one that posted that shit. I don't even have the last button thing working on my computer, used that key to replace the missing i.

[Justin Timberlake]

That's fairly Australian of you.

[Justin Timberlake]

Jessie. Those notes? Dump them plz.

[Justin Timberlake]

._. no notes?

[Justin Timberlake]

Why didn't you say no initially?

That's a really BS reason for not posting them too.

[Justin Timberlake]

lol Because I didn't post from the point of being asking until after Piggy was hammered... As for the reasoning being BS that's fine but you have to admit it fits with my in-game meta.

Not really? If you're town you should be willing to post your notes to help people read you as town. Considering I literally asked you 10 minutes ago and you ignored it too, then welp yah.

[Justin Timberlake]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMyCa35_mOg

[Justin Timberlake]

Thank god.

Woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

[Justin Timberlake]

Faraday went to bed literally a minute ago, he's going to be so annoyed when he finds out he just missed out finding out it's over.

[Justin Timberlake]

Uh, so you're trolling?

Brb brining sheets in but this better be fucking over.

[Justin Timberlake]

Back and sigh, I thought the rest of the post was done before you realized she was hammered, only really focused on the bottom of it.

[Justin Timberlake]

Bleh. At least I can stop F5ing over and over again now.

I'm going to try and put the game out of my head for a good 12 hours (I'll probably fail at staying out of the thread) and hopefully the mini-break will rejuvenate me but I literally would bet ANYTHING that Cerulean and Deadpool are town so think the best way to proceed when I get back is look through everyone else's interactions with each other and narrow down the potential scum teams from 6 (3+2+1) to 1-2 hopefully and then I can just read into them in a fuckload of depth.

[Justin Timberlake]

I'm going to fail at 'not posting in the thread' minutes in but I need this answered:

Mehdi, if Thor is scum who is his partner? (I'll give you a hint: Without even doing the reading into it I'll tell you Thor + Jesse don't work as a scum-team)

[Justin Timberlake]

Vote Count

• Thor665 (3)
  : Soul2277 PiggyGal15, JesseSheffield
  
• JesseSheffield (2)
  : Thor665 N
  
• Soul2277 (1)
  : Justin Timberlake
  
• Deadpool (1)
  : Cerulean
  
• Not voting:
  Deadpool

Deadline: Sat 1 Dec, 23:29 UTC (

automatic countdown: (expired on 2012-12-01 23:29:00)

)

With 8 alive it is 5 to lynch.

*Moved Jesses vote from where the quote states where it was to where it actually should be as he voted Thor in Post 681

So you think both leading wagons here are on scum with their partner voting each other in a game where if either of them get lynched they autoloss? I think the chance that they're the scum-team are pretty close to 0% whereas N and Jesse have argued but haven't really voted each other for long periods or when each where realistically close to being lynched yet. But lets say that you're right about Jesse / N not being partners (Which I do want to see a little backing towards other than just them arguing) that means it has to be Thor + N? If that's the case can you show me how they work as a scum-team?

[Justin Timberlake]

Also, is there a solid reason JT isn't scum? Just trying to set aside my townreads so I don't have to even consider them again, but I pretty much have solid reasons for Soul and Tampire. Don't really have that strong of a reason to put JT in the forever and ever town pile tbh

Why are your posts so god damn fucking awful awful awful? You've played with Regfan before too. So yes, other than the fact we're town there's no reason, but the fact we're town is actually a pretty good reason.

[Justin Timberlake]

958 is a stupid calculated attempt to manipulate. You should honestly stop posting like that if you're town. Only I get away with stuff like that as town, and that';s because I've an extremely sexy accent.

[Justin Timberlake]

I want to go over the thread again. There's a part of me that thinks Jessie's just fucking awful and would have posted some coblled together notes as scum. I also very much dislike Soul's reaction to the lynch which was to ask thor some question about a partner, which could be some sort of perspective slip about knowing Piggy was town. (Consider: they're questioning someone after their top scum read has been lynched, immediately. I questioned people, admittedly but that was because Jessie came in and notbuddytold)


I want to pour over this thread again and take a little more time.


P.s. what happens if we reach deadline? It's nightless so doesn't day just start again?

[Justin Timberlake]

Why does anyone townread Deadpool again?

Well other than absta replace/absta posts. I skimmed the newbie game linked and he looked more...'straightlaced' as scum but that might be because it was a newbie game? I dunno.

[Justin Timberlake]

Faraday, define straightlaced? On a skim of his meta, he seems pretty straightlaced as both alignments.

What do you think of Arthur, though? Yes, his posts suck but are they scum motivated?

~Empire.

His play here seems a little more...weird? The OMGUS thing at the start, for example. I'd need a non newbie game example for that to be worthwhile anyway, since I play different in newbie games.

Dunno. I mean I think they theoretically could be? Not everything scum do is scum motivated anyway, he might just suck at scum really bad? I don't actually know if I've seen him as scum/remember seeing him as scum now it's mentioned.

[Justin Timberlake]

Um proved wrong about Piggy? I don't see how they'd be related? I mean being wrong about You/Piggy scumteam doesn't make you town? Plus it was only a part of me!

Anyway back to ignoring this game for today (that's working well!)

[Justin Timberlake]

If I conveniently dropped it does that mean I'm scum?

(That wasn't me, that was Regfan. Duh? )

[Justin Timberlake]

If you say so! I haven't read any of you/regfan's argument back and forth.

[Justin Timberlake]

Because it's boring? Like super boring. I just went back and read the N/you stuff though and that's also stupid?

AFAICT N thinks you're accusing him of bussing/distancing Thor and you're saying he wouldn't? Do I have the gist right? Is there anything more to it?

Whatever. Gonna go watch homeland and DEAN AMBROSE.

[Justin Timberlake]

Compiling this post for my own reference but I do encourage anyone who cares to trudge through these games and help me out on the meta analysis here:

I want to do some Absta reading later. Mehdi too, probably. It'll prob be tomorrow though.

[Justin Timberlake]

I mean no you don't really have the gist of it right but hey, neither of you do so that's at least consistent!

What did I say that was incorrect then?


Post 943 is what then? I mean N certainly thinks you're accusing him of bussing/distancing. That's clear 936. I'm following so far. Now presumably your rather ANGRY response isn't because you *agree* with what he said about you, but disagree? Am I wrong? If you disagree then you're *not* accusing him of bussing/distancing.

4. Come on, you could go a million directions with a case on Thor and you’re not even going to attempt it mainly because you know it’ll either a) get blasted apart or b) he’s your scum partner.

This also looks like you're saying he wouldn't?

Scum/N on Scum/Thor (b): You can’t attack Thor because you’re not a good enough player to successfully play out a “N attacks Thor, Thor attacks N, there’s a strong back and forth before it dies without either getting lynched.” Its basically saying YOU CAN’T BUS AND DISTANCE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT A COMPETENT ENOUGH PLAYER TO PULL IT OFF. Where me saying you're bussing and distancing from Thor is LITERALLY beyond my comprehension.

That also seems to say he wouldn't? (I mean presumably you mean distance strongly which is fine)

Now, explain it to me slowly withot censoring curse words what I've got wrong?

If anyone else who followed this argument can explain where I'm going wrong that'd probably be better.

I mean I don't agree with Regfan that it means you're calling N town, or even should, you seem to think he'd lightly mention his partner the way he did (by mentioning him as a 3rd suspect) or maybe even have a town read on him? Explain it to me if I missed anything! This is all very interesting to me!

[Justin Timberlake]

And the reasoning simply is the sheer amount of arguing and how N seriously seems to be pushing for jesse's lynch (as can be seen in the post right after yours). Eliminating jesse/n leaves thor/n or jesse/thor (considering who I have as strong town reads). Third one I can see why it's doubtful now. As for thor/n, on thor's side he's town read him quite a bit (interesting difference from where he suspected n a lot when he was town in reverse mafia). N really hasn't fought thor. I don't see what's wrong with that pair. Still prefer thor vote though (and I'm curious how n fits well with both for all saying that) just because independently I find him scummier.

Yeah, I think from your point of view your vote makes sense. I'm trying to cut down on partnerships atm, too. I have more to work with though!

[Justin Timberlake]

If anyone else who followed this argument can explain where I'm going wrong that'd probably be better.

Actually it doesn't even seem alignment relevant for Jessie/N other than the fact they're not scum together, I think. So w/e?

[Justin Timberlake]

Easy explanation is he thinks n isn't attacking thor because as scum it would be bad for him either way, but he's still trying to not look at him as town.

Well yeah, I got that part of it but it didn't seem worth commenting on.

[Justin Timberlake]

And JT trust us and the number of partnerships is equal really.

And get Ned Starked? No way! Maybe. Gonna do some more digging, first.

[Justin Timberlake]

F-16 was in a lylo in some other game, fyi. Him posting here wasn't too weird then.

[Justin Timberlake]

Well I don't really care about his reads after 1/4 of the game, anyway.

[Justin Timberlake]

He said he thought we could be partners, iirc. It's still dumb as fuck to not explain it.

Also Jessie said you threw out a one liner about Thor. I'd not really consider that post bussing/distancing so he probably didn't? So I don't think he was trying to imply you were bussing/distancing (since didn't he outright stated you wouldn't?)

[Justin Timberlake]

if I've misunderstood something then ignore it b/c the HE SAID I'D BUS OR DISTANCE argument is stupid but i like being right

[Justin Timberlake]

Jesus. Jessie didn't consider the rest of 912 distancing, at all. He's saying you wouldn't do X. You'd do Y. So you'd not distance. You'd thrown out a one liner about your partner. X=/=Y in Jessie's mind.

BED TIME.

[Justin Timberlake]

Back home and ready to get stuck back into this. Shouldn't take me too long to catch up then want to do some reading to cut down potential scum teams.

Cerul and Deadpool are as good as modconfirmed town, regardless of how much wtf it is that this game is still going it's neither of these guys being scum. I'll explain both reads in a massive amount of detail if you guys want. That leaves there being two scum inside of Jesse, N, Thor and Soul. Together between them there's only six combinations so I'll go through them. Those six combinations are as follows:

A) Jesse + N B) Jesse + Thor C) Jesse + Soul D) N + Thor E) N + Soul F) Thor + Soul

[Justin Timberlake]

There's a few things that I still need to get to - specifically cross-isoing people to narrow down the possibilties and there's a few posts that I've found off and bad since the hammer. Will talk about them in a few hours, need to finish cooking (Probably burnt the food by now) and then I'll sit down and write it all out.

Do you think buddying is town then? Honestly it's play style related and at a point in time where neither could ever be lynched they'd want mislynches and not look suspicious as much as possible.

And the reasoning simply is the sheer amount of arguing and how N seriously seems to be pushing for jesse's lynch (as can be seen in the post right after yours). Eliminating jesse/n leaves thor/n or jesse/thor (considering who I have as strong town reads). Third one I can see why it's doubtful now. As for thor/n, on thor's side he's town read him quite a bit (interesting difference from where he suspected n a lot when he was town in reverse mafia). N really hasn't fought thor. I don't see what's wrong with that pair. Still prefer thor vote though (and I'm curious how n fits well with both for all saying that) just because independently I find him scummier.

I don't understand how you grabbed the term buddying from? My Post 950 has zilch to do with either of them 'buddying' anyone but the point I'm drumming in is that them legitimately pushing hardcore for each others lynches and actually voting each other to follow through with it fairly strongly points against them being partners. And I see what you're saying about N and Jesse arguing but there's a difference between arguing and voting each other and arguing and not really voting each other, before this post of yours they weren't doing any of the actual pushing for the lynch of the other so I don't understand how you think Jesse / N is less likely than Jesse / Thor. But if you want to pretend that both are impossible then it would have to be Thor and N. So you haven't done what I've asked at all. I want flat out reasoning and links that make them likely partners not just stating that they haven't interacted much. And I haven't said anythings wrong with that pair but if it's the only team you think is plausible you should be relatively confident enough to put forward a case.

---

Cerulean, I know you guys are hesitant on calling Deadpool hard town and we need to be seeing eye to eye on everything now otherwise paranoia and disagreement is just going to eat this game alive. So I'm going to summarize below exactly why the slot is town, you need to read it, talk together about it and either completely understand what I'm saying and thus agree on the slot being without a doubt town or tell me where you think I'm wrong.

Here's why Deadpool is town:

- Abstas jump on Equinox in Post 25 and subsequent unvote in Post 28 with the reasoning explained in Post 48, Post 52 and Post 54 all read as a gambit and move that makes sense for him to do as town, he was attempting to use the situation to get reactions and reads and the manner of the unvote with the reasoning shows that. I don't think he'd have thought to do that or followed through with it as scum as it just throws him into the spotlight and allows people to attack him for 'unvoting and not voting anyone else' in the early stages of the game.

- Abstas replace out in Post 545 and Post 547 and Post 558 is confirmed not to be him having a lack of time for the as he instantly /inned for another game which means that the only reasoning for his replace out can be due to him not being motivated to continue the game or being spoiled or at least thinking his integrity in the game was compromised. The phrasing of "I MIGHT HAVE TO replace out, let me think on it" points heavily against him just being unmotivated to continue and I don't think he's a big enough cunt to replace out for the sole reason that a partner was lynched so that leaves only one real possibility. And that possibility is that he was compromised which cannot happen if he's scum which makes him essentially conftown.

- Sixtys vote on Absta in Post 63 later explained in Post 134 as them attempting to see who would switch wagons and get reactions and reads based around that isn't something I see happening towards a partner. Abstas response towards it in Post 148 of "This is also a nicer way of saying "we were trying to misslynch absta"." isn't what scum say to a partner as well. Entire interaction and situation points heavily towards him being town from it.

- Deadpools attitude and interaction with Tammy when replacing in of attacking her and pressuring her for reads is something that I can very much understand the motivation behind, while I don't think he went about it the best way as it just lead towards stubbornness between the two I don't think he'd attempt to pit himself against the most widely considered town slot in the game as scum there. Him stating that he told F-16 to hold of reading the thread while they wait for Piggys flip in Post 939 is very very very understandable as town. The line of 'if someone is trolling and prolonging this it's not cool' is what I was thinking and is incredibly genuine. I also think his image in Post 993 is a relatively decent town tell too.

[Justin Timberlake]

I also just don’t really see much pro-town motivation behind JT’s posting.

There's no way you actually believe this.

[Justin Timberlake]

Arthur, what you're missing about Thors N push is that he didn't have a scum-read on him, he did it to see who would join him and get reactions and reads from it.

JustinTimberlake reads as scum. Once Sixty hammered, they started going after Sixty hard - they need to as scum. It makes sense to bus a buddy after a bad quickhammer. That and the fact that JustinTimberlake had Voided and Sixty as their biggest scumreads while voting Voided Day 1 rubs me the wrong way - trying to ensure a mislynch while having a buddy as a top scumread.

We pushed Sixty because the blitzhammer made very very very little sense as town and they were our strongest remaining scum-read. There's nothing more to it than that. This entire paragraph from you is filled with confirmation-bias, ie. you're only looking at things one way.

[Justin Timberlake]

Okay, so back to this. Out of the combinations in Post 1045 the ones that I'd confidently rule out as not being the case are B) (Jesse and Thor) and F) (Soul and Thor). For B) Thor has been strongly pushing on Jesse for quite some time now and given the setup it'd be leading to a loss for him, Jesses reaction and tunnel back onto Thor due to it is something that makes no sense if these guys are partners, fair to say that objectively this pairing is pretty much impossible. For F) Soul has been pushing on Thor quite a lot and after Piggys lynch their attention towards Thor is something that shows their intention is to push on him, and quite hard at that. Their reasoning behind voting Thor at the moment can very easily be turned around to lead them to voting N for the same reasoning and I don't think as scum they'd phrase it all to end up voting a partner. Souls case on Thor, Thors rebuttal to it and then Soul asking me to comment on my thoughts on what parts of his case were legitimate or not is again something that I don't see happening if they're partners. So removing those three pairings it's left with:

A) Jesse + N
C) Jesse + Soul
D) N + Thor
E) N + Soul

Just need to look into those now.

[Justin Timberlake]

N, Arthur thinks that Jesse is town, not Thor.

[Justin Timberlake]

A) Jesse + N - Happy enough to rule this out now. Jesses joining of the N wagon when Thor started it would be something he'd know would make him likely have to vote N down the line - doesn't make sense for him to do as partners. Ns reaction and statement of 'you call that shit a case you're worse than sixty than' and omgus of Jesse and Jesse pointing it out. Dislike the fact that so many of his posts are refuting, arguing and calling N a scum-read yet happily jumping and voting elsewhere, if he thinks N is mafia and is relatively confident in it then there should be a lot more of him staying on the vote. That said Ns aggression and annoyance with Jesse as well as Jesses return in a lot of posts don't look like partner on partner. N staying on Jesses wagon at the moment with no real signs of moving point against it too.

[Justin Timberlake]

D) N + Thor - Interaction wise this fits. Thors dislike of Ns comment of starting to suspect him until he was voted by him and dislike of the hammer related comment of waiting for them to post more incriminating posts to their buddies before hammering isn't something that actually really looks like a 'lie', he seems to genuinely believe both those comments are bad so him claiming that he was 'lying' the whole time during that to fake ammunition to vote N to get a reaction test for feels like a stretch. Him reaction testing a partner to see who would join on them is possible as it gives him some room to move the next few days by allowing him to vote whoever joins him. His reasoning for the N town read feels weak too. Ns town read on Thor for 'voting him' is extremely odd, not something I'd ever consider a town-tell especially since it's based of just two games - did just go hunting for them to see if Thor was actually town in both games and he was - it's Reserve Rudex and Political Corruption if anyone's interested. Says Thor/Soul are stubborn town vs town. Really no real pressure put on each other.

E) N + Soul - Interaction wise this actually fits very very well. Soul haven't stated any real thoughts on N other than null earlier and a town read later but no reasoning attached, stated they 'instantly' agreed on him as town and that he was null because of inactivity. Have a lot of interaction with everyone else it seems other than N. N similarly doesn't do much with Soul too, states he hasn't read the debate between Soul/Us and says he thinks we're both town, says he hasn't read the argument between Soul/Thor and thinks they're both town. Says Soul is meta is town due to meta of him not asking so many questions as scum. Initial thought of that was didn't think scum would bring up meta of partner but going over it can very much see scum using that sort of reasoning to town read partner. Souls reasoning for their vote of partnership PoE can lead them to vote Thor and N just as easily and their vote on Thor for 'individual scuminness' without saying much about N at the time makes sense as distancing as if Thor gets lynched and flips town the case on N of partner PoE would vanish.

Will do C) Jesse + Soul later.

[Justin Timberlake]

Oh, Deadpool (Mostly Arthur) can you explain your town read on Soul in detail, like point by point so I can understand what I'm missing because getting a solid-town read on them will help massively and Post 902 from them really really rubbed me the wrong way; They were the lead vote on Piggy and showed confidence the entire time so their initial reaction after the hammer being questioning someone else and continuing to scumhunt rather than thinking it was over feels unnatural and at this point barely anyone had posted meaning that Piggy-Scum would have been something they should still have believed in there.

[Justin Timberlake]

Yeah, really want to talk to Faraday about Jesse + Soul. Not sure at all about if they work or not, got things pointing both ways.

[Justin Timberlake]

JustinTimberlake reads as scum. Once Sixty hammered, they started going after Sixty hard - they need to as scum. It makes sense to bus a buddy after a bad quickhammer. That and the fact that JustinTimberlake had Voided and Sixty as their biggest scumreads while voting Voided Day 1 rubs me the wrong way - trying to ensure a mislynch while having a buddy as a top scumread.

don't post again

[Justin Timberlake]

JT: JT makes me really wary. If I’m thinking logically unless the scum team is Thor/N there’s really not many options for N to be on a scum team with. As funny as this might sound I really don’t like JT butting in on N/I’s argument. I mean its really SUCH a stupid, illogical argument and I just don’t see how any of the town benefits by its continuance. On the inside, its just really frustrating to watch N not comprehend/misquote over and over and over again. But on the outside, I just don’t get what you can possibly extract from it by interjecting. I don’t know why JT let himself get goaded back into it by me. Cerulean did a really nice job deflecting that on Day 1 which is where I get such a solid town read on them. I also just don’t really see much pro-town motivation behind JT’s posting.

You asked me about it first and then you were a smarmy cunt so I wanted to prove I'd read it right.

I'm not sure why being goaded into it would make me scum? Especially if you admit you're goading? Seems a very human reaction to you GOING LOL BOTH HYDRA HEADS ARE WRONG, when I was right. Why would you purposely goad someone into a stupid argument? How would their reaction be alignment relevant?

[Justin Timberlake]

Yeah, I will. Faraday wants to look specifically to see if Jesse gets frustrated as scum so suggest you guys look out for that too.

Also if there's anything you think I've incorrectly ruled out PoE you should let me know sooner rather than later.