Open 633: Near Vanilla-GAME OVER

[Ollie]

VOTE: jmo16mla

Panicking already, look at his face.

[Ollie]

You don't even have a face:(

Why did you bring that up, I'm very sensitive about it.

[Ollie]

Hey Ollie, what do you think of kt?

very creepy, one to watch

[Ollie]

....because? Serious question, I want an actual answer

His reply to Lowell was over complicated IMO, too much thought went into a response to a naked vote. What do you think?

[Ollie]

VOTE: KTthecreeper

try hard scum

[Ollie]

F#ckin vampires, always out to taste my sweet townie blood.

Nosferatu what's your take on what's happened so far?

[Ollie]

yeah I also hadn't read your post. Get over yourself.

Assuming you just now remembered this game, why throw down an RVS vote as opposed to offer your thoughts on the non-serious content in the thread?

not RVS.

24/25 <--- who states suspicion only to come back literally an hour later to put a vote down? I could understand if it were a few minutes later and you were like "oh ya, I forgot to vote him actually" but no, he calls him tryhard scum, which is like ¿qué? cause like one thing is saying he was to lengthy in his response to a naked vote, (which I don't even get I mean when did post length become alignment-indicative) but another is calling him tryhard scum based on one post.

You voted for me with a naked vote, having clearly ignored what had happened so far. So I ask you what you think about what's happened to try & get you to comment on it. You say:

"Nothing happened"

. Which we know is untrue as there was a wagon forming on KT & disagreement about that as well. So you hadn't read the thread & no mention of anything I've done & that you voted for me for any reason at this point. Then when pressed on your out of place RVS vote by OceanWind, you say something I did was scummy to come up with a reason for your vote to try & prove that it wasn't. But you already said that nothing had happened & gave no reason for your vote at the time. As for what you've said about me, basically everything you could possibly use about my play so far including timing of my vote, also ignoring any thought about the context of what I may be doing, to try & justify your vote.

[Ollie]

I had read what had happened so far. The last game with KT progressed exactly the same way. Someone naked votes him, he overreacts, wagon forms, people argue over the wagon's existence, blah blah blah. So yes. There was nothing unique about the KT wagon and therefore I dismissed it as nothing at all. It's like treating RVS content as significant. It always happens; nothing special about it to comment on.

So yeah, that invalidates the rest of your wall, so there's nothing else to reply to, try harder next time fam

I never asked you specifically about that wagon though. You replied that nothing had happened, that's all encompassing. Your vote was out of place. When questioned about it, suddenly something had happened, convenient considering you needed a reason for your vote after being pressed.

[Ollie]

Why is it scummy that he came back an hour later to vote?

It felt like he forgot that he thought it was scummy or something

I forgot I found it scummy or something?

I reread the thread later & thought I'd put some pressure on.

Yeah, I read that post. His question was pretty general:

Nosferatu what's your take on what's happened so far?

This might have been a good time to engage your then top suspect by pointing out why you voted him rather than answer completely literally that "nothing happened."

Yeah this is what I don't understand. He's voted for me for a reason (he claims). So why wasn't he pressuring me on it when I interacted with him? Because he'd given no reason, & not bothered to bring why he voted me up, he left me with the impression that he was voting for me for no real reason. I thought that was the case, that's what motivated my initial question to him as that struck me as odd as we were past the RVS stage. & does something worthy of a vote count as nothing? & he's said if I asked him a different question, he'd have given a different answer. Well how much more all encompassing could my question be than "What's your take on what's happened so far?" I purposely made it that way to give him a chance to comment on the game in general & his vote for me. & he's making out the fault was in my question & not his answer.

[Ollie]

The one reason I could see for putting down naked votes is to get a reaction from the person you voted. You got that. Then you answered his question literally rather than use it an as opening point to scumhunt, ask him if he knows why you are voting him or question him further.

My "angle" with the question is I want to know why you are not pro-active and need to be prompted by others before you expand on your vote.

Yes! He wasn't scum hunting til pressed by you about his vote. he had no interest in pressing me til then despite having a great opportunity to, which I purposely gave him. I got no bite on it.

[Ollie]

So what you're telling me is that you actually wanted to know why I voted you but didn't ask?

What I'm telling OceanWind, is that I gave you the chance to press me, explain your vote, & prove that you were engaged in what was going on in the game, & you failed. & what you're telling me is that my question is wrong, not your answer.

[Ollie]

yeah I also hadn't read your post. Get over yourself.

Assuming you just now remembered this game, why throw down an RVS vote as opposed to offer your thoughts on the non-serious content in the thread?

not RVS.

24/25 <--- who states suspicion only to come back literally an hour later to put a vote down? I could understand if it were a few minutes later and you were like "oh ya, I forgot to vote him actually" but no, he calls him tryhard scum, which is like ¿qué? cause like one thing is saying he was to lengthy in his response to a naked vote, (which I don't even get I mean when did post length become alignment-indicative) but another is calling him tryhard scum based on one post.

Nah it's ok mate, this is nothing. Nothing happened here*.

*until later on when you needed reasons for your vote & then it was something that happened.

[Ollie]

jsyk there's no winning a battle where you're going to tell

me

what

I

meant in a post.

jsyk there's no 'winning a battle' by saying that my question is wrong & not your answer. & also, what you meant is up for debate.

[Ollie]

no, I'm saying that your question did not specifically ask for me to explain my vote and therefore I didn't explain it. It is completely normal for me to put a vote down and not explain it until prompted. In Game Shop Mafia, I put a vote down on davesaz and didn't explain it until I was asked much much later. If you want something from me, ask me directly and don't bullshit me with evidently purposefully vague questions in hope that I would answer what you want me to.

You're saying my question was too vague now. You're seriously telling me that you thought the answer I was looking for was what you thought had happened minus the thing that had attracted your attention the most?

[Ollie]

I never said it wasn't vague, but you're using that as an excuse for answer. Can you answer my question...

You're seriously telling me that you thought the answer I was looking for was what you thought had happened minus the thing that had attracted your attention the most?

[Ollie]

I never said it wasn't vague, but you're using that as an excuse for

your

answer. Can you answer my question...

You're seriously telling me that you thought the answer I was looking for was what you thought had happened minus the thing that had attracted your attention the most?

edited

[Ollie]

Magna is going to be annoying as hell, but, unfortunately, is town.

why?

KT is town.

why?

Imp, you're town.

why?

[Ollie]

acryon advocated a KainTepes policy lynch & has done nothing else.

[Ollie]

Quick I need more votes on me, or I'll be scumread late game for not being pressured enough!

Ocean if you don't vote for me I'm going to death tunnel you

Just vote me for fucks sakes

God fucking dammit no one's voting me

[Ollie]

Fuck this isn't following my town meta

Quick I need more votes on me, or I'll be scumread late game for not being pressured enough!

You should try scumhunting more.

I like this.

[Ollie]

Magna is going to be annoying as hell, but, unfortunately, is town.

that was quick.

VOTE: lowell

I like this, it irks me when I see people dishing out town reds so early as well. It looks like they're trying to get people on their side & collect loyal soldiers t help them fight their battles.

It surprises me that jmo's vote an hour after his post never set off Nosferatu's scum vote time criteria. But then again he never had to justify a vote for him did he.

[quote="In post 62, jmo16mla]
I dont like him calling out albert as a friend to "get in here"[/quote]

This is another thing... what's the thought process behind doing that? Safety hiding in numbers? What if they're scum?

[Ollie]

Wow this is the best thing I've seen all day this thread

So lets see I've been lynch day 1 75% of the game I've played on this site

So instead of reacting negatively to votes against me I decided to be positive and uplifting.

Apperently when I yell at people for naking voting its scum

When I tell people "thanks" for naked voted its scum.

and I love how "my existence hurts the town" when I literately posted 4 times. The only way you could have a chance of reading someone in 4 post is either if they post a screen shot of their role PM or if you have played 10+ games with them.

Now I'm going to reread the game cringe a little and give my thought on this game.

I'm going to laugh when people say this post is "OMG OBV SCUM LYNCH NOW" I'm just trying to set the record straight that I was experimenting a little so if you find I'm scum with this post then by all means lynch me I could not care less. I mean if I react negative to a vote its scum, if I react positive its scum, if I don't react at all its scum, I don't know anymore.

So you WERE trying too hard, & you say its because you get lynched alot on day 1? I can buy that. Advice: Just play the game, scum hunt, & don't worry so much about how others are reading you. At least not to the extent that you're gonna spend most of your time on the defensive through making overly defensive posts.

[Ollie]

It surprises me that jmo's vote an hour after his post never set off Nosferatu's scum vote time criteria.

he was prompted by magna.

& that's less scummy, ok. Makes no sense, but ok.

[Ollie]

UNVOTE: KTthecreeper

I'll judge you on your scum hunting, let's see what you've got.

[Ollie]

lowell: townreading so easily is how I won against you last game as scum fam

This is true. I was admittedly bad that game.

For pointing this out unprompted, I declare you town this game. No guts no glory.

If this was intentional then fair play.

[Ollie]

UNVOTE: KTthecreeper

I'll judge you on your scum hunting, let's see what you've got.

hit em hard champ!

I should follow your example. Nothing hits scum harder than telling people to vote for you ad nauseam.

[Ollie]

ABR, get in here and help me kill some newbs.

So Lowell do you usually buddy up to ABR? And just for kicks why aren’t you interested in having ABR’s slot help you lynch scum instead of pwning noobs?

I like this. The response was placatory & swerved the question...

Magna is going to be annoying as hell, but, unfortunately, is town.

But I wanna know the answer. Do you usually buddy up to ABR Lowell & why?

[Ollie]

i dont get it

does that make me stupid

...

Quick I need more votes on me, or I'll be scumread late game for not being pressured enough!

Ocean if you don't vote for me I'm going to death tunnel you

Just vote me for fucks sakes

God fucking dammit no one's voting me

[Ollie]

Killthestory can you give at least some of your reads on people so far? It's gonna be hard to work out your alignment with no content.

[Ollie]

I'm starting to see the Ollie case, if for no other reason than his growing frustration that no one else is voting for obvtown killthestory like he wants us to. And yes, Ollie, I do normally sheep ABR. Because it's fun. You got a problem?

Actually you're just annoyed at me asking you questions. Again; why do you think Imp & Magna town?

I'm not even voting for killthestory, & I can't get any read til I get some content from (her, I think?). My read there null is atm.

[Ollie]

VOTE: Acryon

Lacks any engagement in the game beyond the Policy Lynch issue. At this stage there is plenty to mine to start forming suspicions.

And what does that mean to you? If you are suggesting it is scummy why didn’t you vote him? You unvoted Creeper at 149 and nothing between this post and that one should have changed your opinion on Creeper. And if it is not scummy why bother posting it at all?

It's definitely a bad start for Acryon, but I wanna see what he does when he actually engages in the game. I was working my way through everyone in isolation, I actually thought it was a unique view point at the time before I read everyone's posts but it wasn't. I could vote there though.

If this is the case why aren’t telling us which player that most likely is?

Yeah that's bad, none-committal. Bellahant goes in the naughty pile.

See this is where you lose me. Because the most damning of the exchange at 22-25 between Bella and Ollie is not that it took him an hour after posting 24 to vote in 25. It’s that he only voted for Creeper at all because Bella repeatedly badgered him about his read. And Nosferatu doesn’t address that element in his 73 at all.

Well kinda true, I only gave more of an opinion about it because I was badgered, I was still in pissing about mode until that.

So Kill being Town would make you sad. Nope nevermind he’s ObvTown and should be followed like a sheep. This makes no sense …

At the risk of stirring Lowell into saying I'm annoyed because I want to kill someone else... clearly the way he plays is gathering a little army together (by giving them a town pat on the head), to give him more sway & help protect him from big baddies. So not sure if we can read anything into that on its own. All we can do is question the fuck out of his town reads I suppose.

And the first part about Ollie being scummy for being frustrated that no-one is voting Kill is terrible logic since

1. Kill repeatedly asked people to vote him.
2. Ollie is clearly not pushing Kill but responding to his “Vote me” spam.

The only person pushing for people to vote for Kill is Kill.

[Ollie]

acryon

You must be kidding!

[Ollie]

It felt like he forgot that he thought it was scummy or something

This feels like a major stretch. You just said they stated a suspicion, so how could they forget that he thought it was scummy within the same post?

Thank you! It's a load of rubbish isn't it.

[Ollie]

It felt like he forgot that he thought it was scummy or something

This feels like a major stretch. You just said they stated a suspicion, so how could they forget that he thought it was scummy within the same post?

Thank you! It's a load of rubbish isn't it.

It is, although admittedly your encouraging me here makes me feel worse about you.

You've had a lot to say and done a lot of good questioning for the most part but your vote is still open. Who's scum?

Hang on, working on a reads list as you type. I'll remember not to encourage you any more in the future. I had a gold star sticker & a motivational speech ready for you as well, which you will now never get.

[Ollie]

Subject to massive change & IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER, so don't go getting smug Magna etc..

Town Leans

MagnaofIllusion

- pushing people hard, asking the right questions, seems healthily suspicious of every player in the game, which I like.

KTthecreeper

- early wagon puts me off when I mesh that with the explanation for the early vote & the accounts of early KT wagons being common.

OceanWind

- had alot of the same questions for Nos as me & articulated some good stuff that I couldn't, so I don't see that as riding on my coat tails.

ChurchofMercy

- coulda tried to stick the knife in when I was coming under fire, but said they supported me with no messing about. Wants killthestory to scum hunt, join the club.

Null

Acryon

- Bad start but I was right to give him a chance to do something. That something was a great point about Nosferatu. He's pretty much scum reading my town leans list, but hey great point.

jmo

- liked that he had a problem with Lowell's early town read but not much else to go on

Killthestory

- no content to read

Lowell

- his play has been mostly gathering allies, which I don't read either way

Imperium

- unsure, not just gonna scum read him for that nonsense about Nosferatu's point being the best yet or whatever but he's an inbetweener atm.

Scum Leans

Bellaphant

- Hedging her bets in the little she's posted.

Nosferatu

- How long have you got? I'm not convinced yet though. I'm not fucking Lowell am I.

Who have I missed off that list? Can't work out who is playing under a different name.

I can see alot of switching around so no one get pissy me me or I'll cut u.

[Ollie]

just to pre empt, I have to wait an hour before my opinions & votes. It's in the scum hand book you get.

[Ollie]

Acryon

- He's pretty much scum reading my town leans list, but hey great point.

Wow you weren't kidding about this. Can we get on the same page? Why are you giving Church towncred for supporting you when he straight up said he didn't read several pages and skimmed? And is Magna asking the right questions? He actually seems to be jumping on low-hanging fruit and seems overly concerned with his standing amongst the town.

Stop trying to f#ck up my town leans

Good point, you were low hanging fruit but I thought that was a pressure vote to get you engaged, could be wrong.

As for Church I just really appreciated the support at that time, you know. But they could slink back down to null in my next list. Just depends what they do.

[Ollie]

SeshatX - Null, inactive
KainTepes - Null, inactive

Bloody, I thought I was seeing things with these two in the vote count. Inactive is an understatement.

[Ollie]

@Ollie:

Why did you wait for an hour to vote?

...

I forgot I found it scummy or something?

I reread the thread later & thought I'd put some pressure on.

[Ollie]

This is a natural human tendency, which is probably why Church would make a move like this. Is there a reason you think that he'd be less likely to do this as scum than town?

The last day 1 I had on this site I only just survived being the lynch after a mafia hydra went after me & got their buddies who usually play with them to team up. They killed me night 1, fooled their 'town block' & won. The start of this game had a similar feel so I was happy to see Church pop up & say I'm town at that point. But yeah it doesn't make Church town. I suppose that slot is null for me on reflection because there are lots of people who've handed out easy town credit in this game. I need to see more from them.

[Ollie]

prodding KainTepes and SeshatX. If they do not respond within 24 hours in-thread, then I shall replace them. Thanks to Ollie for bringing this to my attention.

[Ollie]

though I dunno if he's confident enough as scum to make the voting joke he just made. Like, it's super cheeky.

What are you referring to?

@ollie, can you link me to a recent scum game?

My most recent one on here, I was a SK pretending to be a Vig for 3 months, asking town who I should shoot at night etc, pretending I had to lynch a person I marked to get my night kill. I got lynched on the last damn day & mafia won!

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

[Ollie]

Just went for the most recent one I remember being scum in Nos, these threads are from ages ago, having to read through to remember what happened. There's over 100 posts to read in that SK one where I was pulling off lie after lie.

Here's my last mafia one from even further back, ended January 2015. I replaced in on day 2 & I was modkilled on day 2 as well haha...

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

This one end of 2014 where I replaced in with 4 votes on my slot (7 to lynch) which was the consensus top scum read, scraped to survival by going after the other wagon leader, then caused havoc the next day when I was considered certain scum after the other guys flip. I was a dead scum posting, but I faked that I thought Mathdino had day viged me, he then thought I was town which got him killed by the town vig. That was fun.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

[Ollie]

Ollie began his 1v1 with Nosferatu, and it seemed clear through the dialogue that Nosferatu was on the backfoot.

[Ollie]

ChurchofMercy

- coulda tried to stick the knife in when I was coming under fire, but said they supported me with no messing about. Wants killthestory to scum hunt, join the club.

Why do you see it as something to Town read this slot for? In your argument you are Town. Who is in best position to stick up for a Town under early fire in your mind?

...

This is a natural human tendency, which is probably why Church would make a move like this. Is there a reason you think that he'd be less likely to do this as scum than town?

The last day 1 I had on this site I only just survived being the lynch after a mafia hydra went after me & got their buddies who usually play with them to team up. They killed me night 1, fooled their 'town block' & won. The start of this game had a similar feel so I was happy to see Church pop up & say I'm town at that point. But yeah it doesn't make Church town. I suppose that slot is null for me on reflection because there are lots of people who've handed out easy town credit in this game. I need to see more from them.

[Ollie]

Lack of engagement isn't scummy.

My attention is mostly focused on dating right now

Mafia is falling to the wayside

I will coordinate with Klingon in our PT and offer my thoughts and criticisms. If you all want to gang up on us before we get a footing, that's your right of course. You can win without us, I believe in you.

Albert

Big co-ordinated reads list of everyone please.

[Ollie]

In no order, bit more solid than my last reads...

Town Leans

MagnaofIllusion

- Still pushing people hard, asking the right questions, seems healthily suspicious of every player in the game.

OceanWind

- No change (had alot of the same questions for Nos as me & articulated some good stuff that I couldn't, so I don't see that as riding on my coat tails)

Imperium

- The highest riser in my charts. Excellent reading of the early dynamic with me & Bella. Didn't just drop what he was on about earlier but did drop it after following up, which anyone reasonable would. Townie trait to constantly reassess your reads & not just tunnel like a dick head.

Killthestory

- Is now providing plenty of content which is helpful. I think this slot is town because of the form of the arrogance displayed towards Church, exemplified best in post 250 (top of page 11).

Acryon

- He WAS low hanging fruit to be fair. Has a habit of making good points, most recently about Church. Has come under fire but he has my support. (but not my encouragement)

Null

KTthecreeper

- The early wagon puts me off scum reading when I mesh that with the explanation for the early vote & the accounts of early KT wagons being common. But now I realize there was no scum hunting in your posts you can't be town yet.

ChurchofMercy

- Not much aggression coming out of this slot, could be a sitting duck as a result. They really need to get on the front foot in this game. I do want them to be town but I can see why alot of others are getting stuck into them.

jmo

- I liked that he had a problem with Lowell's early town read but not much else to go on. May move into my scum pile if he doesn't start doing more stuff soon though. The stuff he has said has been a bit short & snappy, maybe so he doesn't give too much away.

KainTepes and SeshatX

- The life & soul of the party.

Scum Leans

Lowell

- Oh look, someone's been relegated. Evasive when questioned in this game, most recent example being in post 264 when he shuts down Magna's reasonable request for some more observations. You don't wanna be town read? You won't be then.

Bellaphant

- She asked me for a recent town game, made no comment on it later. I mean I could be wrong but that looks like she wasn't really that bothered. I'm not gonna force you to read one of the games I provided for you Bella, but if you never read or now don't want to after all, tell me why. & what made you ask?

Nosferatu

- I wanted to be able to pat myself on the head for being objective & at least move you into the null list. But the only new thing is taking a bite at poor Acryon after killethestory had voted for him. So there's nothing overtly town that warrants it a change I'm just left with the early scummy stuff. Can I see a full list of your reads, is that reasonable? I don't see you interacting with many people.

[Ollie]

Why are you voting Kain you complete weapon!?

[Ollie]

I want wagons split between Bella and Severa

Not Severa, she's new & I have no read on her yet. Bella & Nosferatu wagons. Then one of my two top scum leans flips.

VOTE: Nosferatu

[Ollie]

Severa has posted recklessly & she doesn't seem to care what anyone thinks. Not reading her as as scum so far. In fact she's been so abrasive that she can go in my town pile. That attitude would be suicidal for scum.

[Ollie]

Nos is a wild card. I could easily see him scumteaming with Bella since he's not playing aggressively or scumhunting at all and arguing on shitty things. Some of his posts strike me as off in the gut too.

> reasons for Severa

[Ollie]

Wait why do you think Bella & Nos are linked? Just because you read them both as possible scum?

[Ollie]

Catching up today.

give us a reads list when you've caught up please

[Ollie]

VC pls Kelbris my good man

[Ollie]

Can you order the remainder of your scum-leaning list of {Lowell,Bellaphant} for me? Are they scum together, assuming you are correct about Nosferatu?

1. Bella 2. Lowell. I have no link for them.

[Ollie]

Bellaphant

- Hedging her bets in the little she's posted.

Hedging where?

Also Ollie could you answer this if you haven't done so already?

...

Mm, benefit of the doubt is he was waiting for a response from me, but it was super weird. Kt's defensiveness is not something I've seen from them, but I've played with them twice and were an easy mislynch once and a modkill the second time.

One of the votes on him is prolly scum.

If this is the case why aren’t telling us which player that most likely is?

.

[Ollie]

Can you order the remainder of your scum-leaning list of {Lowell,Bellaphant} for me? Are they scum together, assuming you are correct about Nosferatu?

1. Bella 2. Lowell. I have no link for them.

I can see a link from me to Lowell

Go on then...

[Ollie]

Revisiting my last reads list...

Lowell your response to this...

Lowell

- Oh look, someone's been relegated. Evasive when questioned in this game, most recent example being in post 264 when he shuts down Magna's reasonable request for some more observations. You don't wanna be town read? You won't be then.

was this...

@Ollie- glad you agree with my scum reads, basically.

But BTW, I've seen way too many "participation-hunters" be way off the mark. That you're concerned so much about other people's participation makes me think you're looking for an easy target.

Why did you not address directly what I said about you? If town I thought that was a good point for you to think to yourself: "Ok I'll actually allow people to town read me cos I'm town after all". Instead you generalize about my list... You say I'm looking for an easy target but I don't think I have any in my scum pile. There are definitely easier targets than a guy buddied up to several people who'd gathered little interest from others like you, Nos showed himself very willing to defend himself up to that point, & although she's attracted alot of interest, I've not used lack of participation against Bella in that list, she was involved by that point. People I'd not seen much from were in my null section. So where was the evidence of that? It just looks like you were trying to discredit my list cos you were a scum lean.

You're not in my scum pile for lack of participation but let's go down the participation route now, why have you bothered gathering allies if you're not gonna do anything with them? You had/have some people willing to work with you, great scum hunting conditions... you started doing that & then, well, nothing much.

At least Lowell responded to me...

Nosferatu

- Can I see a full list of your reads, is that reasonable? I don't see you interacting with many people

Nos, you can't tell me you never read this considering you (still) only really seem interested in my posts, everyone reads posts about them & Bella in fact has town read you for your 'eye for detail'. Since my vote for you, you found a reason to unvote me & you haven't pushed anyone else. Let's see a reads list from you please. A comprehensive one. I'm not convinced you're really trying to find scum. Convince me.

[Ollie]

Mm, benefit of the doubt is he was waiting for a response from me, but it was super weird. Kt's defensiveness is not something I've seen from them, but I've played with them twice and were an easy mislynch once and a modkill the second time.

One of the votes on him is prolly scum.

If this is the case why aren’t telling us which player that most likely is?

.

I fail to see how this is her hedging.

Playing it safe would have been a more accurate way to sum up my feelings on that in hindsight. That point Magna made brought it to my attention. OW has uncovered more evidence of that here...

irt to lowell: firstly, my role pm, secondly the push on kt (eaaaaasy bait), immediate townread on magna, imp, ollie, kts, scum-reads with no reasoning: I had like ten posts this morning to his 18, but I feel I've provided some content (and more now), rather than the lack of info with lowell.

If you found Lowell's push on KTthecreeper scummy, why didn't you say anything about it then? You only said "

one of the votes on him is probably scum

" (Post 76). When specifically asked which vote you found scummy, you were still vague about it "

I can easily see scum pushing a mislynch and with four votes, it's probable that one may be'

(Post 223).

It wasn't much then but now a pattern is emerging, & two of my strongest town leans have picked up on it.

[Ollie]

I don't assign everyone reads and order them in readlists. I focus on a limited amount of people at a time. I haven't given a readlist since I don't usually perceive games like that.

Limited? yeah no shit. Spread your net, who has your interest?

[Ollie]

Tell me what you think of Lowell & Imperium then Nos...

& do you have any town leans?

[Ollie]

MagnaofIllusion & OceanWind are my strongest town reads, partly cos of thorough interrogations like this: 601 & this: 608. I think they're going after players with genuine intent of finding scum without fear of coming out with a load of shit that makes them look scummy. So they're really getting into it with people, & with questions that make sense. The first ones I can say are proper town reads.

Nos looking more town here: 572 seeing a pattern of him taking more firm stances on things now, & here 602, he was looking into things in more depth, risking pissing people off, which I've been suspecting he's avoided through not interacting with many people & focusing on me. But I don't know if he's genuinely reassessed his read on me which has town motivation, or said he's losing interest in me as a placatory measure to put me off sniffing around him.

[Ollie]

Severa (2): ChurchofMercy, SnarkySnowman

I see Severa as town, reckless posting from the time she got started to now. She's very emotional & I find that easy to read. She's almost one of my 3 proper town reads but I'd like to see a town & a scum game from them before I go that far. Should be a pretty easy player to read just by reading past games.

With the extension of the day we have enough time to make a decision between these two...

ChurchOfMercy (6) [L-2]: Lowell, Imperium, Bellaphant, MagnaofIllusion, acryon, Killthestory

I have sympathy for a hydra that comes under fire because it can be hard to allay people's suspicions about you once the ball is rolling. I had a hydra game where we were pestered constantly, & with two people you can end up pissing off almost everybody. But they are a very confusing slot now so I can't get a read either way. It would be the safe move to lynch Church as they look like being a VT & we do get alot of info. & they could be annoying to sort if they survive. But when I think about those as reasons for voting for Church, they seem like bullshit reasons.

SnarkySnowman (3): Severa, OceanWind, Xisiqomelir

Initially I saw Snarky's reads list 528 as a positive because he had me, OW & MoI as town & we were finally getting something to read from that slot. From reassessing my own reads from my 1st reads list to my 2nd I've realized how much I've been wanting to town read people who are town reading me so I got rid of those kinds of reads in my 2nd list. Snarky wasn't in the game when I made my 2nd list so he's slipped through my net. I wouldn't say I was town reading him but I deffo gave him a pass. Looking at that list again, his 3 town reads were pretty safe & could have been pre-emptive placatory reads so he could have an easy life, because the 3 of us were the ones going after people. & no reasoning for his reads despite being perfectly happy to sort everyone into sections. I found plenty of content to fuel my reads for my 2nd list, & this was before Snarky's list so I would expect him to be able to do that as well. He wouldn't quite be in my scum list, but he's lower down my totem poll than Church.

Today hasn't ended up great in terms of helping me sort people; with none of my top scum reads on the table for the lynch. & none of them are very involved in any of the wagons. But when I think back to a week ago when I wanted to try & get something else going instead of a Church wagon, people were stubbornly sticking to voting for him. Even now after all this late in the day madness, he's the clear vote leader. I think at least some people are going for Church because they became the easy option. & kinda related to that, looking at the wagons... Lowell & Bella on Church's wagon isn't exactly filling me with confidence about them being scum & OW & Severa are on Snarky's. So my vote goes here. VOTE: SnarkySnowman

Snarky can you flesh out this reads list with reasoning please 528 & talk me through any changes in your reads since you made it.

[Ollie]

VOTE: CoM

get back on Snarky you rascal

[Ollie]

very well, deadline extended by 2 days. The new deadline will expire in (expired on 2016-04-18 19:01:46)

We have time^ for a Snarky lynch everyone, the day isn't done. He's my preference from the viable wagons.

[Ollie]

It's fuckin tedious to read through all this stuff. Can we talk about the lynch at hand considering the day is almost over? Church or Snarky. That's today. This is what's happening & needs our attention.

[Ollie]

Ollie -

A few questions about your 831:

1. Can you point out what bullshit reasons ChurchOfMercy is being voted for?

I said that voting for them because... they're likely to be VT if town, because we'd get alot of info or because they'd be annoying to sort would be BS reasons to vote for them. These were things I was considering when deciding which side I landed on Snarky/Church. I think you misinterpreted what I said there?

2. What do you mean you got rid of reads where you townread people who townread you? I townread you. Then you townread me. As of your second readslist, you still had me in your townreads. So, what did you "get rid of exactly" and who are referring to?

I got rid of people I was mainly town reading because they'd town read me like Church. I also even gave people like you who I kept as town an easier ride when deciding my 1st list than I should have as well, because you had a town read on me. I obviously never meant that I got rid of everyone who was town reading me at all, there's no logical reason to do that. My 1st reads list was formed with crap reasoning based alot on how people were reading me but I learned from it, basically. Probably because my last town day 1 on mafiascum was a proper fight just to stay alive which put me off the site altogether for a year or so due to the way it played out.

3. What do you actually think of ChurchOfMercy? Your entire read these seem designed around who else is voting who rather than the player themselves.

I don't have a scum read horse in this race so the decision came down to who I could get a scummier read on. Someone I'm finding hard to read; Church, or someone I was giving a pass to; Snarky. So I ISOed them to sort. Now pretty much most of Church's posts have been scummy for the last week or so due to the troll-y tone but that could be explained by them being the clear lynch for today since around that time. & before that they were a null read for me. They're a bit all over the place but so was I when I was in a hydra (never again) under alot of pressure. I can find excuses for them. Snarky isn't quite a scum read for me atm but is heading that way mainly because of the read list, voting Severa just for not doing much isn't great either, there wasn't much behind that at that point IMO. Better than voting for Church's great big question mark. Who is on which wagon definitely makes me feel better about my vote but that's not the meat in the sandwich.

[Ollie]

Imperium

yeah thinking that people who voted for you are gonna be in trouble if you flip town is a very newbie thing to say, so something seems off about that. Not necessarily true, you gotta vote for somebody.

I said that voting for them because... they're likely to be VT if town, because we'd get alot of info or because they'd be annoying to sort would be BS reasons to vote for them. These were things I was considering when deciding which side I landed on Snarky/Church. I think you misinterpreted what I said there?

Who provided those reasons? Mind quoting or linking them?

Now pretty much most of Church's posts have been scummy for the last week or so due to the troll-y tone but that could be explained by them being the clear lynch for today since around that time.

Why does someone being the clear lynch of the day excuse them from suspicion for "scummy posts?"

I came up with those as reasons & was happy with them for a while but I ultimately dismissed them, as the point of the game is trying to lynch scum.

It doesn't excuse people of suspicion, but if a person thinks they're the lynch for the day they may be more liable to act out or troll. If a person thinks they have a good shot at getting out of it they'd maybe be more serious & focused with getting on of the hole they're in. It just depends. I would make a concerted effort either way but Church aren't so what I would do goes out of the window when reading them. This may be partially why I'm having trouble with reading either way. I am seeing them in a scummier light atm though.

[Ollie]

I still think the tone of Severa's posts is town, they're wreckless. She's like an amalgamation of several posters I know who attract attention every game. & she's not even bothering to defend herself.

@SEVERA

we should see some of your previous games, doesn't matter if they're on a different site.

The rest of this post is about Lowell... At the beginning of the game he was gathering allies, started to do something with them, then just ducked out of the game... During this time, he didn't respond to a big post I mostly directed at him. 541 This is yet more evasion which he was doing earlier in the game, that kind of thing was why he fell into my scum leans.

Part of the reason for my preference for a SS lynch was to do with how sturdy the CoM wagon was throughout a large portion of day 1. Why is this an issue? Well if you draw a line in the sand early in the day & get your vote sorted then you can just coast along never having to change it. Safety in numbers too etc. I find it hard to believe there was no scum on that wagon with the way it played out. Lowell's vote was made really early on April 5th 157 & it stayed until the flip. His participation fell way off after that. & there was this which was never fleshed out or followed up on despite it being questioned, counting that as more evasion as well...

^^^ this is a scummy post

Futile gathering of allies. Parks vote. Evasion. Lowell's day 1. VOTE: Lowell

[Ollie]

Fuck off.

If you think I'm town you're going to vote SS.

Why are you so eager to lynch SS?

Show me some of your past games.

[Ollie]

@Lowell I don't town read people who don't respond to any issues I have with their play. In response to stuff I raised in my 2nd reads list you just made a general point, you've avoided explaining anything about your play again there. Even your OMGUS vote is based on other games. As for you being low hanging fruit... I was looking for a response from you addressing what I've brought up & I was hoping a vote would do that because you never respond to questions I have about your play otherwise, but even that hasn't worked. Don't get me wrong you were my top scum read, you definitely are now after that but I don't decide who I wanna lynch at the start of a 14 real day, day. If you're town I hope before today ends you at least try & give being town read a try instead of expecting me to give you a pass for no reason at all. I won't be doing that.

[Ollie]

Several issues I have with Jim's posting. I can go more in-depth but a short summary:

• His reads don't mesh with his comments on the game. He has issues with MagnaOfIllusion's posts but puts him as a townread, then claims he mixed him up with Lowell. Hard townread on jmo16mla/Snarky is premature.
• Logical inconsistencies between several of his reads, and some reads such as the ones on KTthecreeper and Imperium involve jumping through too many hoops. Imperium is his strongest townread because KTthecreeper was verbose after Imperium said that newer mafia aren't verbose which is a ridiculous stretch.
  
  
• Having hard scumreads on Acryon and Church just through process of elimination despite not having confident townreads elsewhere.

heuristically_alone contributed nothing to the game in the time he was here. Most of his posting has been non-game relevant. I'll give him a bit more time to get caught up, but I'm very confident today's and tomorrow's lynches need to be Severa and heuristically_alone (in any order).

Yep, H_A has it all to prove. Jim was fine until he was questioned & then he just crumbles. This is a whole load of nonsense linking from his predecessor...

5. Why is only one of Ollie and Lowell mafia? Why are you leaning towards it being Ollie? Why does an Ollie scumflip clear Bellaphant?

Upon reading back, I realize I was mixing up people. That being said, I need to rearrange some of my list. It's Ollie and Magna, and the reason is because they were using the same strategy to approach the game, where it makes sense for one to be scum but not both. Ollie just stuck out more in my head, and the reason it clears bellaphant is that preliminary interaction between the two of them, Bellaphant's pestering about KT I believe it was? That looked a lot like Ollie catering his posts to what Bellaphant was asking.

Two townies can't be 'using the same strategy'? & what strategy do me & Magna have in common? In any case OceanWind was playing most like Magna so any strategy suspicion should fall on him before me. & this is supposed to be a clarification of what he said earlier, yet it's just a confusing mess.

[Ollie]

Snarky can you flesh out this reads list with reasoning please 528 & talk me through any changes in your reads since you made it.

^

[Ollie]

@Killthestory

[Ollie]

wtf RC, it's like Severa was a character you were playing, your posting style has completely changed. Is your play style really that recognizable that you had to do that?

[Ollie]

I don't see them as gathering allies. I do a similar thing to what he did at the beginning in which i look for people I enjoy working with.

It isn't alignment indicative to look for people you enjoy working with, but to start the game like that then not follow up... I got the impression he was going to get into the thick of it from the way he started. That looks fake to me when I add that to the other things he's done in this game. I mean do you look for players you enjoy working with, indicate you want to work with them, then not work with them? In any case, throwing around easy town reads isn't looking for people you want to work with, this is something he's done alot of, & makes up more of why I said he was gathering allies. & what makes me persist with this thinking is... when I questioned why he was doing this, his response was this...

I'm starting to see the Ollie case, if for no other reason than his growing frustration that no one else is voting for obvtown killthestory like he wants us to. And yes, Ollie, I do normally sheep ABR. Because it's fun. You got a problem?

This was a load of bollocks. I wasn't even voting for Killthestory, yet now he was starting to see the case on me for this reason apparently. But what was I doing? Questioning the unquestionable Lowell, & he reacted by trying to make some shit up about me, that was 100% made up unfortunately for him. My stance on Killthestory posted hours before & directly above the Lowell post I've quoted was...

Killthestory can you give at least some of your reads on people so far? It's gonna be hard to work out your alignment with no content.

Notice that he now has his vote on me after I voted for him exhibiting the same behaviour as here. Now he'll be shocked if I'm town because; 'Cautious as whoa'. This was tacked on reasoning for his OMGUs vote. & low posting doesn't make me think someone is scum, it just makes them harder to read. It's what he does when he posts, & the pattern of his play.

[Ollie]

I certainly can see scum floating along in the low content group of Ollie / Bella / Lowell / Acryon group. Ollie in particular has been sidelining quite effectively today – he’s just sitting on his little island going after Lowell and responding to the odd question directed his way. And lastly the way you are laser focused only on Snarky has me a little suspicious.

My posts don't lack content & I've made more of them than you, so I don't know what you mean by a low content poster if I'm in that group. Elaborate?

Read what I said about Lowel here 1207 & tell me why you're not voting for him?

[Ollie]

I agree that there is probably mafia among the low-content posters, specifically on Ollie. He was active at the beginning but then only shows up once every day or every two days and passive about the content he posts. It fits the mold of mafia who got townread early and don't want to shake up the gamestate.

Lowell also falls under this category though. Everytime I think "Lowell," I think "busy for the weekend," "will catchup later," "don't have internet" and so on. He too is on his own island with Ollie not minding anyone else or even analyzing how his old reads make sense today after Church's townflip.

It's hard to stay engaged when people I question don't respond to questioning, can't make much progress. I had enthusiasm for this day at the start of it & it ebbed away. We had a period with barely any posts which really saw me off, I did quite a few prod dodges in this period, like that Stevie Wonder vid.

Why was I your strongest town read before? It seems like whenever I'm not posting mega amounts I'm suddenly scummy. If there's one or two pushing people then I'm fine dipping in & out when I notice stuff. In fact I could point you to town games where I've mentioned that I play like this & not a mega active town leader when I've been scum read for it. It's funny, that is always the thing that gets brought up about me. In fact I guess I only lead when I have a vested interest in a mislynch these days going off my last game.

I don't know if you're talking about me as well in that last sentence but the Church flip informs part of my read on Lowell. You're definitely my strongest town read because of recent developments, I'll clear up why later.

[Ollie]

I'd have to check out his iso to give the details, but from memory, I can tell you: his early posting was

incredibly

strong, and he might have been my strongest townread on page one in fact. His posting has become less frequent as the game has progressed, but unlike a player such as, say, Lowell, his recent posting is still as strong as his earlier posting. Maybe not necessarily in content, but in conveying alignment; his actions have maintained the existing townread.

You might be town reading me, but I'm not town reading you. Jim was scummy as fuck. H_A did nothing. & you started the game off with loads of reads lists that looked like they were for show. Do you think Lowell is scum?

[Ollie]

Ranger, what's your take on this...

Several issues I have with Jim's posting. I can go more in-depth but a short summary:

• His reads don't mesh with his comments on the game. He has issues with MagnaOfIllusion's posts but puts him as a townread, then claims he mixed him up with Lowell. Hard townread on jmo16mla/Snarky is premature.
• Logical inconsistencies between several of his reads, and some reads such as the ones on KTthecreeper and Imperium involve jumping through too many hoops. Imperium is his strongest townread because KTthecreeper was verbose after Imperium said that newer mafia aren't verbose which is a ridiculous stretch.
  
  
• Having hard scumreads on Acryon and Church just through process of elimination despite not having confident townreads elsewhere.

heuristically_alone contributed nothing to the game in the time he was here. Most of his posting has been non-game relevant. I'll give him a bit more time to get caught up, but I'm very confident today's and tomorrow's lynches need to be Severa and heuristically_alone (in any order).

Yep, H_A has it all to prove. Jim was fine until he was questioned & then he just crumbles. This is a whole load of nonsense linking from his predecessor...

5. Why is only one of Ollie and Lowell mafia? Why are you leaning towards it being Ollie? Why does an Ollie scumflip clear Bellaphant?

Upon reading back, I realize I was mixing up people. That being said, I need to rearrange some of my list. It's Ollie and Magna, and the reason is because they were using the same strategy to approach the game, where it makes sense for one to be scum but not both. Ollie just stuck out more in my head, and the reason it clears bellaphant is that preliminary interaction between the two of them, Bellaphant's pestering about KT I believe it was? That looked a lot like Ollie catering his posts to what Bellaphant was asking.

Two townies can't be 'using the same strategy'? & what strategy do me & Magna have in common? In any case OceanWind was playing most like Magna so any strategy suspicion should fall on him before me. & this is supposed to be a clarification of what he said earlier, yet it's just a confusing mess.

[Ollie]

no ranger is obvtown like his reads are good

ISO Jim if you can be arsed.

[Ollie]

if you can recall i had my vote on Jim for the better part of Day 2, so unless youre assuming i vote uniformed, then i have no need to iso Jim

Ok so what's changed your mind on that slot?

[Ollie]

uninformed*

It's ok, I didn't think you voted dressed up like you were in the police or the army.

[Ollie]

if you can recall i had my vote on Jim for the better part of Day 2

wait wtf, you've been null/town on that slot all along, & you were town reading Jim?

[Ollie]

I empathize with people not responding to questioning since the only people giving me substantial responses have been MagnaOfIllusion and Ranger. But I've still been posting trying to move the game forward. You and a bunch of others posting extremely sparsely is part of the reason this game stagnated. Several people have been posting and you haven't made any comments on their posts until your name was brought up. Stuff like Ranger replacing in, Radiant and Snarky tunneling each other, etc.

I started townreading you when you were pushing Nosferatu on D1. It was when you decided to ISO the entire game unprompted and post reads that that townread solidified. I find that town are much more likely to try and understand the game as a whole rather than push isolated reads without regard to the big picture.

I don't expect you to post "mega-amounts." I do expect you to post more than the bare minimum required to avoid being prodded. There is a difference between enthusiastically doing a great job and just barely meeting the requirements and your latest posting falls squarely into the latter. Can you link me to a post where someone incorrectly suspected you for posting too little?

You don't seem like you actually believe in your Lowell read. On the twentieth, you voted him. On the twenty-sixth, you justified your suspicion to Imperium when they questioned you. You are back today on the twenty-eighth responding to MagnaOfIllusion's accusation and asking why he didn't vote yet. If you were that confident in your read, I'd expect a stronger presence in the game, more engagement with people about Lowell, asking for our reads on Lowell, asking people for votes. You haven't done any of that. You just parked your vote there. Eight days in this day phase are up and we only have six more left. It seems like you are okay with time running out and then at deadline, you'd make a similar post to this and decide which of the lynch-wagons you are okay with. Rinse and repeat. I don't see your own mark being made on the game.

I'm not part of the reason this game stagnated, it stagnated & then I lost motivation. I remember refreshing the same page throughout one day with no new posts. So it's unfair to accuse me of that. It winds me up when people don't address my concerns about them, am I just gonna be a massive hypocrite & not do that myself? Also I want to be town read. I've gone into why before in this very game: The last game I played on here as town, & I've never been mislynched before, I'm proud of that. I considered it an advancement in my mafiascum town game that I was getting widely town read, has that made me complacent? Yeah. But I saw you & MoI as my two attack dogs, maybe I could have an easy town game this time round.

So what I was doing on day 1 was, skimming posts for mentions of me, pushing people from things I'd noticed, & then making scum lists by ISoing everyone. & those lists were keeping my interest & making me feel confident in my reads. The problem I've had with coming up with a new list is... Towards the end of day 1, Nos my strongest scum read started looking town, I just started thinking Bella was a terrible player, & the only scum read I had left was Lowell. It then seemed like a fuckin waste of time to do another til there was more to go on. I was struggling to get back into the game at the end of day 1 because of this (& the fact I wasn't scum reading any of the leading wagons). I looked at the 3 wagons to try & get into the game again as it worked with my lists. It's only now that I think it'll be worth ISOing everyone again, because I reckon I have 3 decent scum reads, one maybe, & two town reads. But I'll do a list tomorrow & make sure.

I'm more than happy to link you to a few posts doing that. I'll search for them tomorrow.

I mean I can't rip Lowell apart cos he's never around, but I've made an outstanding case against him. It's not like people's reactions haven't been informing my reads. Killthestory has picked up on it. He's obviously town. Imperium defending Lowell was probably town if obviously very misguided, too blatant a defence for them to be scum together, but that is a typical stance toward Lowell. Far too much indifference to overtly scummy behaviour. I'll respond to some of the rest of that at a later date cos... reasons. But as for you expecting a stronger presence in the game, I had a strong presence in the game, then Lowell buggered off, Snarky never responded to me when I was tryna get a handle on him vs Severa (RC) & the day got inactive as fuck. How strong is my presence gonna be if I've lost interest? You obviously weren't paying attention when I said that. My interest has a direct correlation with my presence.

[Ollie]

Ranger, what's your take on this...

I refuse to deal with my slot's content. If you have issue with it, vote me. If you want answers for it, tough. The slot's out of the game. I'm not answering for it. I'm only going to answer for my own actions.

What did you like most about his recent posting?

On just this page? 1281 is ridiculously good. I like his paranoia in 1282. His interaction with Killthestory furthering it in 1285. The tone in 1289. All of these make me think Ollie is town.

I have an issue with you not even giving an opinion on it, woulda at least expected you to write Jim off as a shit player, but maybe I have a point eh. & I can't vote for two people. But why take that tone? Far too defensive.

& wow you're really reaching for reasons to town read me here. It's almost like you put no genuine thought into your read on me & you're now just scrambling for reasons...

[Ollie]

if you can recall i had my vote on Jim for the better part of Day 2

wait wtf, you've been null/town on that slot all along, & you were town reading Jim?

gut

Why did you say you had your vote on Jim?

[Ollie]

Hey OceanWind

...

A game I was a VT in...

"Ollie is usually very pro-active with his scum hunting but often dies early in games

(remember this bit for later)

. The fact he has somewhat taken a backseat compared to normal, gives me the impression he wants to go under the radar a bit in order to stay in the game longer.
There are potentially two reasons for this - I think we all know what's implied with this."

"Ok, Ollie I don't think you are playing your usual game, too passive and in the background (until now) you want to survive more so than scum hunt. That either means you're a Town PR or scum"

can be found on this page...

http://www.footballforums.net/threads/d ... 21/page-42

My response...

"I haven't been in the background, pretty sure it was me driving an attempt to lynch 20L on day 1, & I was heavily involved with all that 20L nonsense at the start of day 2 where he lied about having a guilty on me.

I dip in & out , depending on if I have something to contribute these days, especially early on

. I won't hold it against you for not noticing that I don't play the way I used to, but I would expect you to have more of a grasp of what's been going on in this game. Thank you for clarifying that you haven't been paying attention."

There were two other occasions where I was accused of being scum for what is now my normal town game of dipping in & out. I remember the posters but not the games, there's no ISO feature on that forum, it's painful to find specific posts. Now the context here is this. I used to go hard on day 1 as a townie but all it got me was NKed early (I bolded a reference to that), so much it got to the point I was gonna give up on it. Until I had one game where I purposely hardly posted at all, I'm talking literally the minimum to stay in the game, scum left me alone & I made it to the end of a town win where I even got to hammer. That is why my game is what it is now, it evolved from there.

My most recent scum game was all out attack in a multi scum game where I drove all 3 lynches. I had so much control of the day 2 lynch that I engineered my safe passage through the night by keeping the doctor alive to protect me after I'd made myself the top town read, kept my widely scum read team mate alive, & kept a townie I'd confirmed as town so would sheep me later alive despite a rival scum faction tying to mislynch them. Those 3 were the preferred lynches of most people. So I was clearly the main presence...

http://www.footballforums.net/threads/g ... ia.261758/

If anything, the pattern of my play should allay your fears of me being scum. But all I'm saying is, at least don't use it to scum read me cos I've had enough of that, I get it alot, & it's not a scum tell for me.

[Ollie]

Can you link me to a post where someone incorrectly suspected you for posting too little?

Why did you ask me for this?

[Ollie]

Ranger thinking the Xisiqomelir mistake makes her town & going on about it, I bet that was deliberate. I don't see the point of all those contentless reads lists otherwise. From the standpoint of helping her work out who is town... that doesn't work because there's no content so she'd forget the reasons, which she has admitted to doing. Reading all of the game, creating a reads list & then barely knowing why she was scum reading anyone, naaaaah. To be town read as a townie & have some juice to go after people? Nah cos again we didn't know why she was reading anyone, & she must have seen Snarky get heat for his identical list (in format). So they were about the mistake & getting some town credit straight away. I mean to expect to be town read for that is a stretch, & she brought it up almost immediately. Lowell scum. Ranger scum.

[Ollie]

Think that Lowell is scum by his approach to my wagon but can't say for sure.

That's not fair.
That's not fair!
SnarkySnowman was yours.
Imperium was yours.
But.
Lowell was

mine

. He was supposed to be MINE! ;_;

I remember that this irked me... I'd made the most noise about Lowell, yet he is RC's apparently. & he was supposed to be Ranger's? & look at the sycophantic back patting for those other reads. Over the top buddying up with RC by Ranger. & why was Lowell chosen? Both scumz. If you make a song & dance about scum reading your team mate you get town credit when they flip.

[Ollie]

In Ranger's defense, she does reads list like that regardless of her alignment.

Does she replace into games with a running reads list though? 8 were posted! Looked like it was for show. Yet again there, you're letting someone of easy with a general statement about their play, ignoring the details.

Can I have your response to this about Lowell, you did the same with him... 1207

Snarky doing that reads list within a half an hour bug me.

I incessantly asked Snarky to elaborate on his reads list & he took ages to do it, so I would not be shocked if he was scum. You know what made me laugh was this...

For the record, updated reads.

Town {MagnaofIllusion, Oceanwind, Ollie, Killthestory}
Townlean {acryon, Lowell, Nosferatu}
Scumlean {Imperium, hueristically_alone}
Scum {RC, Bellephant}

A contentless seemingly little thought out reads list got him into a mess in the first place, yet here he's doing it again. That to me actually says that is his style of reads list though. 22 pages in half an hour? Maybe if he skimmed, I could buy that it had SOME thought behind it. He clearly wanted to be town read. & I've replaced into a game as a townie & been too lazy to read anything but my slot's ISo before so ok. Now the question is does Snarky get mislynched alot? Because if he does I can see why he would want to be town read as a townie. Otherwise, probably scum.

@Snarky

please enlighten me on that score.

[Ollie]

What else didn't make sense about that is I don't remember RC ever calling us scum.

Nice, even more confident now that Ranger is scum.

[Ollie]

I do get mislynched often.

examples pls mate

[Ollie]

I don't think I've ever played a game with Ranger that she's replaced into. I just know that she does contentless reads lists as a matter of course.

It was a bit overkill and read very fake to be like, 1, 2, 3, 7, some with minimal minutes between them. Yes, I know some people can read fast, but nobody can actually consider interactions, motivations, etc in a few seconds, I don't care who they are or think they can.

Exactly.

And yes, Snarky does get mislynched a lot. At least that's my experience with him. In part he does himself no favors because he doesn't post, sometimes completely active lurks, and doesn't answer questions. In Machina Mafia the only reason we were able to read him as town was because of the way he defended Ranger!scum day one and the way he interacted with that lynch. He was still mislynched the next day even though we argued against it. Otherwise I have no idea how to read him.

Thanks, that's useful.

[Ollie]

See he does stuff like that. He won't answer why RC is scum, but he'll pop in to answer a simple question that he gets mislynched a lot. Probably one of the reasons he gets mislynched so often too.

Yeah, I'm not lynching someone for being a shit player.

[Ollie]

jmo16mla

SnarkySnowman (5) [L-2]: Severa, Nosferatu, Ranger, Oceanwind

Are you on his wagon aware that Snarky is often mislynched? Any of you played with him before?

[Ollie]

Can you link me to a post where someone incorrectly suspected you for posting too little?

Why did you ask me for this?

I wanted to check your claims about yourself. I thought you were referring to a game on this site. That would have been great because of the ISO feature. I'm not reading over fifty pages in an offsite game so I'll take your word for it.

I'd still like you to follow-up on posting updated reads like you said you would.

One more thing - can you point out when you started suspecting Ranger/Jim? The first mention of Jim in your ISO is you agreeing with my start of D2 post. Why didn't you comment on Jim's posts while he was in the game?

You don't need to read the whole game, I know the lack of ISO is a chore, so I laid it all out for you. Do me the courtesy of responding when I've taken the time to dig up what you requested. I've already told you about my frustrations about people not responding to me, you claimed to empathize with that. & you knew why I asked you that question. As for my reads list, I'll become clear why I haven't done it yet in a minute, I was hoping for a response from MoI but I never got one lol, FML. Since he's gone for the weekend now I might as well make that clear. I had that Jim quote saved in my drafts, near the end of day 1, I meant to build a case on him, but i really couldn't make sense of his other posts as they were all conflicting nonsense & hard to follow. Then when you brought him up, I thought about that quote & had it on hand.

[Ollie]

Ah nah actually he's in the US so will be around for 5 hours so I'll take a rain check on that for now.

[Ollie]

Well weak players can be scum too. Which is in part why I want RC to talk about his scum read there. I don't need a big case, just something to go on.

Of course they can, but you need to think about them more carefully. Is it scummy play or just shitty play? I have more experience playing with bad players than any of you, believe me.

[Ollie]

First rule of Mafia – don’t conflagrate post count with content. Yeah you have lots of posts. But up until you get called out in a group as low-content producing you haven’t been doing anything. 1018 isn’t content. Neither is 1091. And you’ve basically been cruising along with your sole focus on Lowell. Now I see that since both Ocean and I referenced you’ve admitted you were cruising along wanting an ‘easy game’. Take that concept and throw it out. Effort is required from every Town player otherwise you are just giving scum a place to hide in. That is, of course, if you are Town.

That wasn't a defence, I wanted clarification on why you lumped me in with them, because I don't belong in that group. I've given as much content as the lot of them put together. It'd make sense if the game started on day 2, but my ISO of past posts is available.

What about 1207 is supposed to make me jump and say “Wow, that’s a grade A case”?

Well yes but I wasn't boasting about that, the reason I asked you about Lowell was I just found it strange that here...

Outside of that – I have a Town read on Imperium, a grudging Town read on Radiant and not much beyond that. Maybe Nosferatu but that’s based more on gut at this stage. I certainly can see scum floating along in the low content group of Ollie / Bella / Lowell / Acryon group. Ollie in particular has been sidelining quite effectively today – he’s just sitting on his little island going after Lowell and responding to the odd question directed his way. And lastly the way you are laser focused only on Snarky has me a little suspicious.

You mention me 'in particular', for reasons that Lowell has been much worse on, with one of the reasons being that I'm focused on Lowell. & when I ISOed your posts to see your stance after reading this comment, I saw this...

I'm starting to see the Ollie case, if for no other reason than his growing frustration that no one else is voting for obvtown killthestory like he wants us to. And yes, Ollie, I do normally sheep ABR. Because it's fun. You got a problem?

I have new leader now, though, and his name is killthestory. Obvtown. VOTE: CoM I tend to think team CoM would be having a little more fun were they down. I'm getting a bit of the deflated-after-receiving-scum-role vibe from them. Which I feel is especially pronounced in hydras.

So Kill being Town would make you sad. Nope nevermind he’s ObvTown and should be followed like a sheep. This makes no sense …

And the first part about Ollie being scummy for being frustrated that no-one is voting Kill is terrible logic since

1. Kill repeatedly asked people to vote him.
2. Ollie is clearly not pushing Kill but responding to his “Vote me” spam.

Hey Lowell are you scum? It’s ok you can be honest. No-one will think less of you for it.

& it's funny cos you were finding him scummy^ for similar reasoning to what I state in some of my case on him before, yet as well as giving Lowell an easy time since this post, now you're discrediting my case on him...

You have two quotes from essentially the first four pages of the game from Lowell and an argument that Lowell’s ‘ally gathering’ was scummy because he didn’t follow up on it. I think the bulk of your read on Lowell is because he’s attacking you. Which is to some degree natural. That said he’s a big fat Null read for me as he’s doing nothing helpful that I can see.

Now the reason OceanWind is my strongest town is that, like an reasonable person would, he agreed with you ok, but he also added his own paragraph about Lowell, who you neglected to mention in any detail. Despite the reasons you came up with for me applying to him, but much worse...

I agree that there is probably mafia among the low-content posters, specifically on Ollie. He was active at the beginning but then only shows up once every day or every two days and passive about the content he posts. It fits the mold of mafia who got townread early and don't want to shake up the gamestate.

Lowell also falls under this category though. Everytime I think "Lowell," I think "busy for the weekend," "will catchup later," "don't have internet" and so on. He too is on his own island with Ollie not minding anyone else or even analyzing how his old reads make sense today after Church's townflip.

btw apologies for the mega long post folks.

[Ollie]

I think the bulk of your read on Lowell is because he’s attacking you.

He's counter attacked me, & with totally untrue shit. There's a significant difference.

[Ollie]

Do me the courtesy of responding when I've taken the time to dig up what you requested.

I said I'll take your word for it

Ah so you did, I didn't take that part of your post in.

[Ollie]

Jim scummy AF. Fake looking entrance to the game. Easy town reads. Fake looking buddying up. Didn't wanna touch the Jim mess. A tenuous connection to Lowell. & much better than lynching lynch bait. Yep.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Ranger

[Ollie]

I have several times told someone I wanted to work with them and then not done so right away especially early day one when I'm feeling people out. Sometimes I'll reach out to someone to see how they react and it helps me read them. A lot of people do sheep ABR though and that's usually because when he's town he pushes his reads with a single mindedness that causes some people to follow them.

That actually makes alot of sense, he coulda done it for that reason. I mean he did follow up by voting for Church.

Still, the counter attacks tho.

[Ollie]

speaking of lowell why hasn't he been force replaced or something? He only posts every 2 days or so and doesn't do anything.

Yes he should be force replaced. Last time I checked on Lowell he hadn't posted in over 2 days 6 hours, then hours later he comes in with a prod dodge & fucks off again despite there being a shitload of talk about him...

Just showing up, didn't read back. did ranger claim scum or something?

[Ollie]

I'd made the most noise about Lowell, yet he is RC's apparently.

RC and I have a running contest to see who the better scumhunter and nightkill magnet is.
He, unfortunately, is winning.

Bluntly, I didn't even really notice your Lowell point nor did I care much for it. I

did

care about having felt RC's reads were right on SnarkySnowman and Imperium, then learning my third scumread was also

his

third scumread.

You didn't notice it or you didn't care for it? If you didn't notice it I'm not sure how you formed an opinion.

It was a bit overkill and read very fake to be like, 1, 2, 3, 7, some with minimal minutes between them.

Ollie being ignorant on a first game is believable.

This is not. Tammy and Nacho both, 100%, absolutely

know

that I display this tendency in games. Of course, ongoing is ongoing, so let's use recently completed games.

Example one. Town.
Example two. Scum.
Example three. Serial killer.
Example four. Town.
Example five. Town.
Example six. Scum.
Subverted: example seven. Scum...where I did

not

do this. I put in five minutes worth of effort to fake it, then cruised the rest of the game.
Example eight. Town.

I think we can thoroughly establish this is a null tell for me.

Imperium saying otherwise when they, 100%, absolutely KNOW this is the case,

that

makes them scum.

That seems legit but if you were really reading the game properly while you were making these lists then how did you miss this...

As the night drew to a close and day took it's place. It was noticed that a member of the town was missing. After a quick head count, they found that Xisiqomelir was not at the gathering. When checking his house, the rest of the town found his corpse in his lounge room. Upon closer inspection of his residence, it was determined that

Xisiqomelir:

Vanilla Townie

had been killed night 1.

I wouldn't care if you didn't make this post shortly after, bringing up your mistake yourself...

Xisiqomelir: Vanilla Townie had been killed night 1.

Well on the one hand.

Pretty sure this confirms me as town.

On the other.

This would have been really useful to know when reading D1. I was under the impression we had no deaths last night; none are listed in the OP.

[Ollie]

welp, Lowell is getting force-replaced.

Good man Kelbris.

[Ollie]

convenient that Snarky is your top scum read Ranger.

[Ollie]

[quote="In post 1456, Virtue"]Yeah, I just skimmed through Lowell's ISO. I'm content voting here until I am fully caught up. My biggest concern is that KTS and Nosferatu are both acting very weird about this, but I cannot get ahead of myself.

Why do you think Lowell is scum?

[Ollie]

Not really. Can't see a defense here. More like hedging actually.

Why are you hedging on Lowell Nos?

[Ollie]

I think Virtue is scum with SS based on his catchup.

why?

[Ollie]

My reads look something like this atm...

Killthestory, OceanWind, MagnaofIllusion, Imperium
RadiantCowbells
Nosferatu, Massive
Virtue
Lowell, Ranger

Although RC & Virtue are where they are from my Severa (who might as well have been a different player) & Bella reads, harder to get a read on their 'replacements'. Nos I'm unsure about atm. Ranger's responses have been good lately but the Snarky scum read is convenient & I'd like to see how I read Lowell's replacement so my vote stays.

[Ollie]

convenient that Snarky is your top scum read Ranger.

Yes, how convenient it is that my top scumread is the player

I am voting

who I have

actively tried to lynch

. Funny how that works, innit?

Have you played with Snarky before? He had 3 votes when you replaced in, you had no reason of your own for voting for him. Only then did you read the game & nothing changed in your reads lists. Reminder...

VOTE: SnarkySnowman.
I'm starting my readthrough now, but I think Drunk RC is town and I think that if he's calling SS a scummy scumperson, SnarkySnowman was probably a scummy scumperson.

[Ollie]

I think Virtue is scum with SS based on his catchup.

why?

^

[Ollie]

Have you played with Snarky before?

More than any player in here, except possibly RadiantCowbells. So, yes. Extensively. As both alignments.

This is his scumgame.

Have an uncompleted one though!

At least until this finishes.

When have you two successfully read Snarky during a game?

[Ollie]

lol @ Ranger putting me in her suspects list or whatever she's calling it, she spent half of yesterday finding reasons for why my posts were town. Snarky flipping town didn't do her any favours after the way she voted for him. VOTE: Ranger

I'm eager to see how I read Masquerade after Lowell's shit show. & I'm a bit concerned about how the Acryon/Massive slot is going under the radar.

I like who

@Virtue

is suspecting apart from Ranger, why is she town? In answer to your question. yeah I felt like she was probably distancing with Lowell. He appears almost town & almost scum in Ranger's early lists, & later she makes a point of bringing him up to RC. But I don't have any real confidence in shit like that til after I see a scum flip, you can tend to see what you want to see.

[Ollie]

I forget everything that's happening in this game. But I'm here. Will think about it, then vote haphazardly.

welp, Lowell is getting force-replaced.

we have finally found a replacement for Lowell, please welcome masquerade to the game.

[Ollie]

Virtue why the change from Masquerade to Nos?

I've no idea what to make of the Lowell/Masquerade slot now.

[Ollie]

Why does Lowell’s replacement make you move away from your read on Lowell? I ask because a slot being replaced doesn’t wipe the role PM away. If Lowell was scummy (and you were very convinced he was) the slot should still be scummy in your mind for that prior behavior.

I did have a moment of doubt but that slot still looks like scum from Lowell & Masquerade is just treading water & pushing no one. My comment was about my befuddlement with that slot in relation to this comment...

I forget everything that's happening in this game. But I'm here. Will think about it, then vote haphazardly.

I looked back & saw that to miss that he'd been force replaced he would have had to have not read the thread for at least 5 days, no new posts for 2 days so no excuse not to catch up. Then he comes in with his typical prod dodge & comment over events that had occurred only in the last page or so. How could you hope to be any help as a townie not even reading the thread? & what do you get from just staying in a game you've barely had any involvement in? Scummy as hell. & then I reasoned with myself; Would he make it so obvious that he hadn't read it if he was scum? No care taken there whatsoever.

[Ollie]

But actually... no interest in reading the game or engaging with anyone, but still wants to hydra...

well GL masq.... let me know if you need a hydra partner...

Does anyone have any knowledge of if Lowell prefers being town or scum?

[Ollie]

can't think of a reason to not VOTE: Virtue :/

Why are you voting for him?

[Ollie]

But actually... no interest in reading the game or engaging with anyone, but still wants to hydra...

well GL masq.... let me know if you need a hydra partner...

Does anyone have any knowledge of if Lowell prefers being town or scum?

How is that relevant?

I don't know Lowell, never played with him before, maybe he asked because he saw my joindate? I'm an alt btw.
Reading mafia-games is a LOT different from reading a book. A book usually has a storyline it won't deviate from, or only for a few chapters to catch back later, and it's already written.
Here there's dozens of people with hundreds of opinoins that can be interpreted a thousand ways.
Finish that thought yourselves.

Well if he wanted to cling onto the game cos he drew a scum role then it would be pretty damn relevant!

But it's good that you want to defend your predecessor,, have a crack at this...

The rest of this post is about Lowell... At the beginning of the game he was gathering allies, started to do something with them, then just ducked out of the game... During this time, he didn't respond to a big post I mostly directed at him. 541 This is yet more evasion which he was doing earlier in the game, that kind of thing was why he fell into my scum leans.

Part of the reason for my preference for a SS lynch was to do with how sturdy the CoM wagon was throughout a large portion of day 1. Why is this an issue? Well if you draw a line in the sand early in the day & get your vote sorted then you can just coast along never having to change it. Safety in numbers too etc. I find it hard to believe there was no scum on that wagon with the way it played out. Lowell's vote was made really early on April 5th 157 & it stayed until the flip. His participation fell way off after that. & there was this which was never fleshed out or followed up on despite it being questioned, counting that as more evasion as well...

^^^ this is a scummy post

Futile gathering of allies. Parks vote. Evasion. Lowell's day 1. VOTE: Lowell

I don't see them as gathering allies. I do a similar thing to what he did at the beginning in which i look for people I enjoy working with.

It isn't alignment indicative to look for people you enjoy working with, but to start the game like that then not follow up... I got the impression he was going to get into the thick of it from the way he started. That looks fake to me when I add that to the other things he's done in this game. I mean do you look for players you enjoy working with, indicate you want to work with them, then not work with them? In any case, throwing around easy town reads isn't looking for people you want to work with, this is something he's done alot of, & makes up more of why I said he was gathering allies. & what makes me persist with this thinking is... when I questioned why he was doing this, his response was this...

I'm starting to see the Ollie case, if for no other reason than his growing frustration that no one else is voting for obvtown killthestory like he wants us to. And yes, Ollie, I do normally sheep ABR. Because it's fun. You got a problem?

This was a load of bollocks. I wasn't even voting for Killthestory, yet now he was starting to see the case on me for this reason apparently. But what was I doing? Questioning the unquestionable Lowell, & he reacted by trying to make some shit up about me, that was 100% made up unfortunately for him. My stance on Killthestory posted hours before & directly above the Lowell post I've quoted was...

Killthestory can you give at least some of your reads on people so far? It's gonna be hard to work out your alignment with no content.

Notice that he now has his vote on me after I voted for him exhibiting the same behaviour as here. Now he'll be shocked if I'm town because; 'Cautious as whoa'. This was tacked on reasoning for his OMGUs vote. & low posting doesn't make me think someone is scum, it just makes them harder to read. It's what he does when he posts, & the pattern of his play.

[Ollie]

@Ollie -

a few questions for you:

1. Your suspicion of Lowell was based on him not responding to you (among other things)

During this time, he didn't respond to a big post I mostly directed at him. 541 This is yet more evasion which he was doing earlier in the game, that kind of thing was why he fell into my scum leans.

Most of the game was doing this including Snarky and Severa. Why weren't they in your pool of suspects?

2. Did you go through RadiantCowbell's other games?

@SEVERA we should see some of your previous games, doesn't matter if they're on a different site.

What conclusions did you draw from them considering your request here? Are you normally the type of player that bothers reading through completed games? What do you generally look for and how in-depth do you read games you are not in? If Severa had linked offsite games for you, what would you have done?

I town read Severa for tone & he wasn't evading me. I only really pushed Severa for some games to verify that was consistent with his town game, & he ended up switching accounts so I got what I wanted & more. Then quite a few people knew him, & were town reading him so I paired that with my earlier town read. I'm not usually the type of player who looks through people's past games, but I thought the character RC was playing with Severa would be easy to read so made an exception. I lost interest in that when RC joined the game as himself & was bizarrely like a different person, so went off what others knew of him instead.

I looked into Snarky as possible scum as he actually was evading some of my questions, then found out he gets mislynched alot & people were dismissing his abilities yet still voting for him. These things made me think he was being targeted as an easy mislynch by some (Ranger one of them), & just being voted for out of frustration at being crap by others. Which put him in my null pile.

[Ollie]

Bella could be scum, too, but yeah, I'd eat my hat if ollie is actually town. Cautious as whoa. ISO that rube and join the wagon.

So, with no previous suspicion of Ollie, just based on Ollie's vote on him, he has this eat-my-hat level of confidence. Then rather than tell us to lynch Ollie, he disappears for several days without giving a shit about the game when he had such confidence in a suspect.

Yeah, I've brought this stuff up before. He never had me as scum before I voted for him. Then he does an OMGUS vote on me, tacks on weak reasoning with no examples, says he's certain I'm scum, then never mentions or responds to me again let alone pushes me or tries to get me lynched. & then when I tried to get a read on Lowell's last posts, Masquerade was awfully defensive, & he hasn't pushed anyone or done much either.

UNVOTE: Ranger
VOTE: Masquerade

[Ollie]

@Nosferatu: Because I didn't like his responses to Magna and his questions to me seemed weird. What did you think of the responses I made and how Ocean reacted to those?

What is it about your slot, anyone who questions it is apparently scum. Lowell had me as scum for it, you have OW as scum for it.

[Ollie]

@Titus who did you replace? I can't seem to find it in the OP?

She replaced Bellaphant with an alt: Virtue, then just started posting as her.

[Ollie]

Don't lynch me btw, it will be lylo if you do with 3 scum vs 4 town so nto a good idea. We need to find scum. Unless someone can stop the kill (don't say anything!) then we might have some more breathing room. Anyway, now would be a good time to let me know what it is you guys want from me because I'm sitting on a scumread on Ranger and I have absolutely no idea how to move forward. So ASK ME QUESTIONS AND ENGAGE WITH ME SO I CAN PROPERLY DEFEND. And stop it with Lowell was scum so lets vote Masq because I CAN'T DEFEND AGAINST THAT.

You've played quite similarly to Lowell though, you have been able to do something about that, in all these ways... Your slot has a problem with being questioned. You've both scum read people for doing just that. You've tread water. I've not seen you on the offensive very much. I tell you what you can do. Provide a full list of your reads on everyone, with everyone sorted as best you can. With detailed (as much as possible) reasoning for everyone.

[Ollie]

yo, is the deadline being amended or not?

[Ollie]

It's not just the hammer post, it's all the other stuff. Her predecessor Jim was scummy AF. Her easy early vote which she never reassessed on the Snarky wagon. Trying to big up how town it was to make a mistake on her entrance to the game (why was she so interested in her own survival so early). The fake looking buddying up with RC which included alot of stuff that wasn't true. & the easy town reads she gave people which she struggled to back up.

VOTE: Ranger

[Ollie]

UNVOTE: Ranger

@MoI There's no rush I suppose but Ranger is my top scum read left in the game so I intend on voting for her today. But there's more than one scum left so I'll work with you to help find the others today as that would be a horrible fake claim, & a quick lynch would be a waste. First off, why is Ranger not scum? Why are Kill & Rach scum? & what do you mean you're gonna assume Imperium was right about me if I don't unvote? I saw a vote with no reasoning that they changed half an hour later so I didn't even take that seriously.

[Ollie]

@MoI you're gonna have to argue against these things to convince me that Ranger is not scum, & consider them yourself...

It's not just the hammer post, it's all the other stuff. Her predecessor Jim was scummy AF. Her easy early vote which she never reassessed on the Snarky wagon. Trying to big up how town it was to make a mistake on her entrance to the game (why was she so interested in her own survival so early). The fake looking buddying up with RC which included alot of stuff that wasn't true. & the easy town reads she gave people which she struggled to back up.

[Ollie]

In fact anyone who wants to take a crack at that explanation for me can do so.

Also, while they are at it, can explain how I shouldn't see obv-scum action in Kill / Rach / Ollie's immediate votes in MYLO. Because to have me consider all of them Town for that I have to think they are all too stupid to even begin to think that today is a day scum only need 2 Town to drop ill-placed votes for a mislynch to fly.

On the other side of the coin I see tons of scum motivation for trying to get a quick lynch in MYLO against a player who had significant suspicion from players like myself and Imperium for several days.

From players like ME for days. ISO me. I don't know what the intentions of Kill & Rach are but I really want Ranger lynched, it's that simple. If Lowell wasn't such a catastrophe/& his slot seemed like the likelier lynch I would have kept my vote on Ranger yesterday. Even you yourself are saying that the only reason you're not scum reading Ranger is that two of your top scum reads voted for her.

MoI you're gonna have to argue against these things to convince me that Ranger is not scum, & consider them yourself...

I'm going to have to do exactly jack shit Ollie. In fact you need to be working very hard to convince me I should listen to you at all given you dropped a vote in your first post in MYLO. Because that is either scum play or stupid, stupid Town play. Either way I'm not about to take council from you on smart play at this stage.

Just because you're a JK, that doesn't mean I'm going to sheep you away from my top scum read. Stop getting upset over a game mate, it's supposed to be fun!

[Ollie]

Kill and Imp are both in favor of a Ranger lynch, and that hammer post of oops I might be lynched at only L3 with masq at L1 umm no, just no.

VOTE: Ranger

I mean looking back at this, voting for Ranger because two others are in favour of a lynch on them, not strong reasoning. What was your read on Ranger yesterday?

Just went through the mod's ISO and we have had 5 townie flips and no scum flips uggh

You're claiming to not know that we had 0 scum flips? If we had a scum flip people would be drawing conclusions from links to them or at least mentioned it?

Ok other two are Nos and Ollie

why?

[Ollie]

{Titus, RachMarie, Ollie} is the most likely scumteam here.

{Imperium, MagnaofIllusion, Nosferatu} are all town.

Why do you have those people town, why do you have those people as the most likely scum team?

[Ollie]

VOTE: Ranger

you led me astray, a false prophet

You thought Ranger was town yesterday?

[Ollie]

I'd swap out Kil for Nos in your position, but otherwise it's good to me.

I've not read one word from your slot about why you think I'm scum.

[Ollie]

I'm seeing alot of lists, alot of scum teams being written up, with no reasoning.

I'm confident some of this shit is just for show.

[Ollie]

@Titus looking at your ISO you've done more sucking up to people than Ranger, quite some feat. When I was in a hydra with you & we were town, you were very confrontational & got in several disputes with people. So that makes it even worse that you're behaving this way in this game.

[Ollie]

Titus is scum because this is her scumgame.

Which is what?

RachMarie is scum for OceanWind's scum posting near the end of D2, and his subsequent posting. Then, after RachMarie comes in, she sits on the sidelines and does nothing...until today, when she opportunistically pursues me, in mylo, and when that doesn't pan out, starts advocating a no-lynch, which is a pro-scum move, ignoring (playing stupid, same thing Titus is doing) all the myriad of reasons why lynching today is mathematically superior for the town.

I agree that her posting today has been horrible but I thought OW was town as fuck. Only off thing he did that sticks in my mind is replacing out at the time he came under pressure. But that may have been just because he was annoyed. What are you referring to on day 2?

And you? Combination of POE plus that same opportunism you've held the majority of today and yesterday, with no pushes that are your own.

You mean yesterday where I was on the wagon of someone I started a wagon on on day 2? Or today where I've voted for you who I've been openly scum reading for a long while & you were my initial vote yesterday? That's not opportunism, that's me wanting to down my top scum reads.

[Ollie]

VOTE: No Lynch
I'll assume MoI isn't lying because no one is CCing.

Do you think Ranger is scum? Why do you want to no lynch?

[Ollie]

You have one warped definition of sucking up.

Not really.

First thing you do as yourself, you offer to replace out for Tammy's benefit, why would you? That comes across as overly empathetic with the way another player feels towards you. & I don't buy it from you...

Sub Virtue for Titus

My alt was exposed in another game. If you want me to sub out Tammy, I will.

Oh please help me Tammy...

Tammy, when you read up please help me rope Nos or explain where I am wrong.

Mega defending of Tammy here, you're Reek to her Ramsay at this point...

VOTE: OceanWind

Tammy's taking her time to help you get better and you call it a self-righteous personal attack. You're scum. You took my townread and shitted all over it. I can't see how any player thinks Tammy is attacking them here.

Being called a "shit human being" and the worst person on site for making sure your own scumbuddy treats people with decency. Then talk to me about personal attacks.

You should be thanking her for thinking you're worth the effort if town. Just say thanks. Your advice is wrong but I appreciate the effort.

So...

What's your relationship with Tammy like now, & what was it like before you replaced into this game?

[Ollie]

@Titus You see this right here, you're still coming across like you're courting Tammy's favour, because I'm not sure how this info is relevant to what I asked....

Tammy and I go way back and ABR treated her like shit that game behind her back (like tried to make it where she's want to leave).

I asked you two things that I'd love an answer to: What's your relationship with Tammy like now, & what was it like before you replaced into this game? & some more if you don't mind... Why would you offer to replace out? If it's because you've had issues with each other in the past, why do you think you've had no issues in this one? I'd appreciate direct answers to every question.

Plus, I wanted to see how Tammy would react to me without knowing it was me at first. I knew I would never keep it up forever, yet I would think it'd last a game.

What question is this an answer to?

Me basically telling Tammy her reads suck isn't sucking up Ollie. Not in the slightest.

I never said it was. Are you saying you did that in the quotes I brought up? Where?

[Ollie]

@Ollie

- if Ranger has been such a strong scum read for you why did you not push them at all Day 3 and participate in the Masq mislynch instead?

Er I did push & vote for Ranger on day 3. Lowell was someone I wanted lynched from the start of day 2 & his slot was the more viable lynch yesterday. I wasn't bothered which one dropped as long as one of em did.

btw yeah I could see a bus situation going on with Kill & Rach, that makes sense.

[Ollie]

Why wouldn't you have asked this at the time of my replacement?

because you hadn't made several sucking up posts at that point.

The timing of this push seems weird and coached. As far as I recall, we have played together a whopping once and I was town. You readily agreeing with Ranger regarding his assessment of my game and tailoring things to that sounds like Ranger talking, not you.

It suggests one of two things, you want a battle between me and Imperium or you're scum with Imperium trying to create an escape hatch to their townread.

Yeah & that once everyone was chasing us around because they wanted to lynch you cos you annoyed them & you were confrontational. I was an absolute nightmare first hydra for me. I can only go off my experience playing with you. Was that the exception & this game is your usual town game? Where did I agree with Ranger about her assessment of your game? I was clearly agreeing about Rach. I love how you've turned me questioning you into two scenarios where I'm scum either way. Great stuff, keep it coming.

[Ollie]

@Ollie

feel free to go in my completed games and see how often I bus scum budz when I am scum. I don't do much of it since usually my scum budz are better players. Like when I was the scum PR and Nacho hard bussed me right off the bat and won the game for us lol.

Besides where have I tunneled on Kill and called him scum? How am I bussing him? Or are you confusing Kill with Ranger, the person I have been calling scum?

To clarify: You & Kill bussing Ranger would make sense. I was responding to MoI's post here: 2039. I'm not buying MoI's initial theory of you two wanting to to quick lynch town Ranger as Ranger is easily my top scum read. That makes sense though. As for what you say about your teammates usually being better players, well Ranger has had a shitload of negative attention & if she is scum, she hasn't played well at all.

No I want an answer You have not posted a ton, (still have goon on your name), but you have been around for a couple of years, so I figure you know what bussing is. So I am trying to see how you see me and Kill bussing each other?

I said Kill was a troll, which is why he was in my TOWN pile not my scum pile. Imp has a scum read on Kill though. And since I know they probably have played with him before, I trust their judgement.

I don't see you & Kill bussing each other. Simmer down, I respond to everyone.

[Ollie]

My point is. You have zero experience with me as scum. Yet when Ranger states this is my scumgame with very little backing it up, you're posturing based off differences between my alleged town and scum meta. You shouldn't have any foundation to suggest a meta read. Even now, your read is very simplified. It reads as if Someone (my bet is on Ranger) told you to find examples of Titus being nice and argue it's sucking up.

Even now, you ignored the context you asked me to provide you. There's a difference between being a civil human being and avoiding confrontation Ollie. You're attempting to paint them in the same brush.

I use whatever info I have at my disposal, the goal is your reaction to the things I'm saying. The sucking up stuff is not a strong scum case on its own, it was a way into putting some pressure on you (like I was doing with everyone). It's clear I'm still sorting people by looking at Rach & Kill possibly bussing Ranger etc but you're behaving as if I'm advocating we lynch you today when I've never even said you're scum. I mean you have a problem with not being in the bus scenario I said was a possibility, er what? I asked you about the sucking up posts & you then come up with two scenarios, funnily enough I'm scum in both. Where is your reason there, anyone who questions you is scum? Were you trying to discredit me? Or what? Then you say the same Ranger I want to lynch today has coached me overnight about you as if the game revolves around you, & continued on with that nonsense. What info do I have that I shouldn't?

[Ollie]

@Killthestory

Why is Ranger a false profit? Do you have anyone else as scum?

[Ollie]

Er I did push & vote for Ranger on day 3. Lowell was someone I wanted lynched from the start of day 2 & his slot was the more viable lynch yesterday. I wasn't bothered which one dropped as long as one of em did.

Seeing this doesn’t make me feel any better about your “Oh Ranger has to go today” stance. Because you were happy yesterday to lynch Town but today you have no other scum reads? At all?

I was more than happy to lynch the Lowell slot yesterday, in fact I was delighted to, so what? How many townies have you been happy to lynch in this game? If there's a point you're trying to make there I don't see it. Ranger is a definite scum read & I'm in the process of sorting other people. Here's where I'm at on everyone else atm...

OW/Rach

- OW was town as fuck, pulled no punches on anyone, asked all the right questions. Rach scummed the slot up quite a bit, possible bus on Ranger, at the least that was a bad vote. But that slot still had enough town credit from OW for me to not make her a scum read. Scum lean.

Imperium

- No alarm bells from this slot, came across pretty town. Then drops a vote on me which was so half hearted I didn't take it seriously as it had no reasoning & moved 30 minutes later. Then they later implied they were scum reading me. Now I don't remember ever being pushed or properly questioned by these 2. & when I pulled them up on their lack of reasoning it was just ignored. If they think I'm scum, why haven't they made a case against me? Scum lean/almost read.

Killthestory

- seems to have changed from Ranger being a 'prophet' to voting for her just for a hammer, but I doubt that will ever be explained. His posting is too sparse & lacking in content to get a real handle. If I was gonna vote for him it would probably be out of frustration than anything solid but has been more scummy lately. But he felt town early on. So I don't know about him.

Nos

- It was like trying to get blood out of a stone trying to get his opinions on day 1 but towards the end of it I did & he was making town posts. But since then he's doing just enough to get by & popping in intermittently, bit of a passenger in the game so far. Undecided on him.

Titus

- Said alot of questionable shit since I pressured her, but alot of it reminds me of Lowell who inexplicably ended up being town... Attack is the best form of defence etc. Undecided on her, but her replies to my current questions should be revealing.

[Ollie]

Dislike. First that you strongest scum read is on Imperium for suspecting you. Protip – your play is definitely worthy of being suspected. Second that the rest of your analysis on everyone else more or less says “Meh, could be scum, could be Town”.

Not for suspecting me, come on now MoI, your reading comprehension needs improvement man. As I said I'm still sorting & I didn't expect you to like what I said considering you have a town read on Imperium. If Ranger flips scum I'll be able to get a much better handle on her partners anyway. I don't make links before a scum flip. If she's town then I've had it with this game.

[Ollie]

Not for suspecting me, come on now MoI, your reading comprehension needs improvement man. As I said I'm still sorting & I didn't expect you to like what I said considering you have a town read on Imperium. If Ranger flips scum I'll be able to get a much better handle on her partners anyway. I don't make links before a scum flip. If she's town then I've had it with this game

The time where you can get away with "Pre Flip associations" is long gone. This is Day 4. A mislynch (which I admit is not a strong possibility but hell we've got people who for some unknown reason Town-read Kill so Ranger being Town wouldn't be the oddest thing this game) and a failed block and the game is over. Additionally on the off chance you were to die overnight it is a disservice to Town for you to have not provided reads they can consider after the fact.

Well I don't think we're gonna have a mislynch, I remember one particularly ridiculous stage from Ranger where she was picking out individual posts of mine from the most recent page & finding reasons for each of them to be town to justify her easy town read on me to OW. Now I'm a scum read of hers. & don't worry about me being offed with no fully formed reads, that's what I'm sorting out today.

titus r u rangers scumbud?

She just might be you know, considering she's totally swerved responding to this by claiming I'm obvious scum because I've totally backed off her...

My point is. You have zero experience with me as scum. Yet when Ranger states this is my scum game with very little backing it up, you're posturing based off differences between my alleged town and scum meta. You shouldn't have any foundation to suggest a meta read. Even now, your read is very simplified. It reads as if Someone (my bet is on Ranger) told you to find examples of Titus being nice and argue it's sucking up.

Even now, you ignored the context you asked me to provide you. There's a difference between being a civil human being and avoiding confrontation Ollie. You're attempting to paint them in the same brush.

I use whatever info I have at my disposal, the goal is your reaction to the things I'm saying. The sucking up stuff is not a strong scum case on its own, it was a way into putting some pressure on you (like I was doing with everyone). It's clear I'm still sorting people by looking at Rach & Kill possibly bussing Ranger etc but you're behaving as if I'm advocating we lynch you today when I've never even said you're scum. I mean you have a problem with not being in the bus scenario I said was a possibility, er what? I asked you about the sucking up posts & you then come up with two scenarios, funnily enough I'm scum in both. Where is your reason there, anyone who questions you is scum? Were you trying to discredit me? Or what? Then you say the same Ranger I want to lynch today has coached me overnight about you as if the game revolves around you, & continued on with that nonsense. What info do I have that I shouldn't?

[Ollie]

Imperium haven't posted in over 4 days, were they on V/LA or what? We need their input.

[Ollie]

Glad to see Imperium still in the game, a replacement woulda taken ages.

[Ollie]

Imperium are you two gonna catch up then? 2 posts in 5 days isn't enough, pretty pathetic considering there's 2 of you.

[Ollie]

& come on

Titus

, respond to this eh...

My point is. You have zero experience with me as scum. Yet when Ranger states this is my scumgame with very little backing it up, you're posturing based off differences between my alleged town and scum meta. You shouldn't have any foundation to suggest a meta read. Even now, your read is very simplified. It reads as if Someone (my bet is on Ranger) told you to find examples of Titus being nice and argue it's sucking up.

Even now, you ignored the context you asked me to provide you. There's a difference between being a civil human being and avoiding confrontation Ollie. You're attempting to paint them in the same brush.

I use whatever info I have at my disposal, the goal is your reaction to the things I'm saying. The sucking up stuff is not a strong scum case on its own, it was a way into putting some pressure on you (like I was doing with everyone). It's clear I'm still sorting people by looking at Rach & Kill possibly bussing Ranger etc but you're behaving as if I'm advocating we lynch you today when I've never even said you're scum. I mean you have a problem with not being in the bus scenario I said was a possibility, er what? I asked you about the sucking up posts & you then come up with two scenarios, funnily enough I'm scum in both. Where is your reason there, anyone who questions you is scum? Were you trying to discredit me? Or what? Then you say the same Ranger I want to lynch today has coached me overnight about you as if the game revolves around you, & continued on with that nonsense. What info do I have that I shouldn't?

[Ollie]

Titus, Ollie, KTS would be what I think the scum team would look like with you as town.

Why? & what would it look like if Ranger is scum?

Only off thing he did that sticks in my mind is replacing out at the time he came under pressure.

This seems like a pretty strange scumtell for OW. Do you think that a scum player who was capable of making the posts that OW did would replace out simply because he was being pressured? Not threaten to replace out, mind you, but actually replace out.

I wouldn't say it was some obvious scum tell, as I said directly after what you've quoted...

that may have been just because he was annoyed.

I don't see why a player who comes across as intelligent like OW did, who put so much into the game like he did, would just storm off because he was disagreeing with you either. So that was definitely strange. Do you think that wasn't strange? Explain it for me then.

could you rephrase things for me a bit?

Not sure how to as I thought that was pretty clear, just tell me what you don't understand.

[Ollie]

Imperium - No alarm bells from this slot, came across pretty town. Then drops a vote on me which was so half hearted I didn't take it seriously as it had no reasoning & moved 30 minutes later. Then they later implied they were scum reading me. Now I don't remember ever being pushed or properly questioned by these 2. & when I pulled them up on their lack of reasoning it was just ignored. If they think I'm scum, why haven't they made a case against me? Scum lean/almost read.

We voted you because it was a gut read that I had when catching up. We didn't case you because it was a gut read we had when catching up. You were probably ignored when you asked for us to expand on our reasoning because, in case you didn't notice, we've been floating in the ether for a little while now. How does this equal a scumread for you?

Gotta love gut reads, reads based on nothing. So you had this 'gut read', you coulda then asked me some questions, pushed me to gain further insight, I mean was I your top scum read at that point? But no you then moved off about half an hour later with not a single word about why you'd voted for me. & who did you move off me to? Someone you now seem to be town reading so who the hell are you pushing really, as I said, just looks like busy work, with no conviction to it...

which I had no reason to do at the time

The thread said it was day 2. You weren't curious who died overnight?

Vote: Ranger

Then you mention me being scum later, I asked you why & you ignore. You're admitting you ignored what I said, I have that right yes? Your reasoning is because you were floating in the ether? What on earth. Reminder; you posted after I asked you. Only now after I've pressed you into it are you even questioning me. & this is a crucial part of the game which neither of you have previously seemed bothered about until almost being replaced for your inactivity.

I'll respond to everything else you said later in detail.

[Ollie]

Killthestory - seems to have changed from Ranger being a 'prophet' to voting for her just for a hammer, but I doubt that will ever be explained. His posting is too sparse & lacking in content to get a real handle. If I was gonna vote for him it would probably be out of frustration than anything solid but has been more scummy lately. But he felt town early on. So I don't know about him.

Why does an early KTS townread mean that you're null on him whereas for the Rach/Us reads recent scumminess was enough for you to move us to scumleans/scum?

It's not mainly because KTS felt town early. It's because his posting style is hard to read. Lack of content & not backing up what he says most of the time. I asked him to explain his change in attitude towards Ranger & he wouldn't. I thought Rach's vote was alot worse than KTS' as well. IMO if you're gonna bus someone you're gonna be more wary of your vote looking legit, & that vote Rach made woulda been pretty much what I'd look for. Using other people's opinions for your reasoning so they wouldn't find it strange etc. This is enough for a scum lean because my reads are centred around Ranger being scum atm, if she flips town I'll reassess. Not making her a scum read on it though as I don't look for scum teams til we get a scum flip.

& KTS has not done what you two have done (can you respond to what I said specifically about what you've done in earlier post pls). If people come at you with no reasoning they should be pressured, then you see if they actually came at you with the right intentions or any conviction at all. This is because of things like in this game where the Smurf You hydra tried to get me lynched all day 1 (specifically Thor), & as the day wore on he revealed more & more reasoning that looked off & was clearly not reassessing his read on me at all making it obvious they were scum... http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go . This is a scum tell I'm pretty damn happy with because even in my last game I played apart from this one, a player called Joga Bonito tried to get me lynched on day 1 by coming at me with a load of nonsense, he started with a naked vote which was actually a lame trap. I then put him under pressure & counter attacked him & he was basically a carbon copy of Thor in that other game (also scum) I wanted him lynched on day 1 & 2 of the game. His attempt to mislynch me started here & made up most of the posts on day 1... http://www.footballforums.net/threads/t ... 070/page-5 & in that game he came up with a fake claim that convinced the townie with the most town credit he was town, I still wanted him lynched. But I was NKed before I could get it done after going along with everyone else believing his fake claim. So also side note: I don't care if MoI is town reading you. I'm not going to sheep MoI's reads just because he has town credit. I'm forming my own opinions & if I'm wrong I'll learn from it. Hate losing cos I went along with someone else who was wrong though.

[Ollie]

@Imperium

are you town reading Ranger atm? Can you answer that in as much detail as possible please.

Not sure how to as I thought that was pretty clear, just tell me what you don't understand.

Do you think Titus is scum because she thought you were pushing you?
What's wrong with her expectation that she would be in your scumreads when she thought you were pushing you?
Why is Titus having you scum in two different scenarios scummy?
Where does the discredit thing come from?

I take it you mean she thought I was pushing her in those first two questions... No I think coming up with only 2 possible scenarios where I'm scum in both is scummy, I mean just for questioning her. I will pressure who I want & I don't expect to be scum read just for doing that. Yet she fired back to my questioning with those two scenarios & then said I was obvious scum. & then what a major reach saying the person I want to lynch has coached me on her. She looks like she's throwing loads of shit to see what sticks to discredit me & try & prevent me from taking a good look at her. Our interactions never progressed beyond that post if you notice. All indirect statements about me but no further interaction from her side. She just shut it down & she's now retreated from the game.

Then you mention me being scum later, I asked you why & you ignore. You're admitting you ignored what I said, I have that right yes? Your reasoning is because you were floating in the ether? What on earth. Reminder; you posted after I asked you. Only now after I've pressed you into it are you even questioning me. & this is a crucial part of the game which neither of you have previously seemed bothered about until almost being replaced for your inactivity.

I didn't respond to you earlier because my time was limited and responding to you was not a priority of mine. My reasoning is that I almost got replaced for my activity; clearly I've been disengaged from the game for a little while and clearly the vote on you wasn't a vote that I put a large amount of thought into (and I don't understand why you're treating it as something different than it is). I'm questioning you now because I'm around in full; I wasn't around before. I don't understand the point you're bringing up about us almost getting replaced; is there a point here?

Why weren't you engaged in the game?

It's because his posting style is hard to read. Lack of content & not backing up what he says most of the time.

What did you townread from him early?

It's ages ago now but I picked out this post in my 2nd reads list. Just blatantly going after someone with that kind of arrogance. So tone but not just that, but the tone was directed towards...

dude im literally too good.

church youre getting lynched today you scumlords

...Also I remember that I liked that he was scum reading the Bellaphant slot. She was a scum leans of mine at the time. & he also tried to get a different wagon going than the ones people seemed rooted to which I didn't like. & also his interactions with me.

Using other people's opinions for your reasoning so they wouldn't find it strange etc. This is enough for a scum lean because my reads are centred around Ranger being scum atm, if she flips town I'll reassess. Not making her a scum read on it though as I don't look for scum teams til we get a scum flip.

The hammer post was a pretty reasonable thing to scumread. I don't understand why you think KTS went from town to scum on Ranger if not for the bus vote and especially don't understand why his lack of an explanation is somehow a plus for him; he pretty clearly doesn't care about looking classically protown regardless of alignment, so why do you think that he would suddenly care about it when bussing a partner?

I don't understand the comparisons you make against us and the other two games; both were attacks that happened early and were going on for a while and were going on for ridiculous reasons. This was a game where we voted you for not that long and voted someone else when we hadn't been around in a while and you're acting like we made a serious push at you and tried to mislynch you but haven't explained it at all.

Voting for somebody just cos 2 other people are scum reading them is weak justification.

Kill and Imp are both in favor of a Ranger lynch, and that hammer post of oops I might be lynched at only L3 with masq at L1 umm no, just no.

VOTE: Ranger

...The lack of explanation is not a plus for KTS, it means it's hard for me to get a handle on him. But that's a good point actually: he probably wouldn't care, again his attitude, his style, all that shit makes him hard to read & I can't get a handle on him. But still, Rach did justify her vote, & the justification was very weak.

You've came at me sneakily with no conviction. Don't just boil it down to voting for me briefly then moving your vote off. You also said you thought I was scum in later interaction with I think it was Nos? which is when I wanted clarification on it as then it pinged me as the same kind of thing I've experienced from scum before (I gave a couple of examples of when). Then when you ignored it you made my scum pile. You see the process there? The day, timing or how overt the attack is has no relevance. I'm showing why it's a scum tell I will ride with.

[Ollie]

This is probably confirmation bias from my end

You don't believe what you're saying there then?

I used previous games to explain my thought process to be town read which I was successful in doing. The more insight the better IMO, especially as I hadn't properly played with anyone before so I was not known. Always what I do on day 1 is get town read so I can get on with scum hunting. The way this game has differed for my usual games is that there was plenty of time on day 1 for to have a bit of self analysis of why I was doing what I was doing. & no the 2nd reads list was so I could put what what I'd learned from analyzing what I'd been doing to use for a new reads list with more to go on than before. & the game was significant to keep mentioning because I never played on here for like a year afterwards cos I was so disenfranchised after playing it. I came to realize the affect it was having on my ability to scum hunt.

I dislike how he doesn't so much as make an attempt to sort out CoM's alignment; he says that they're confusing but doesn't so much as comment on any of the reasons that people are scumreading them, nor actually looks into any of their posts. I also don't understand where the "I think that CoM is VT and annoying and we get a lot of info but those are bullshit reasons so I won't vote there" thing comes from; those weren't reasons that anyone else were talking so why did he bring them up?

His piece on Snarky is garbage; I don't like that the "I was okay with Snarky because he was townreading me! Oops!" bit came up again, and the case Ollie posts on him is no more complicated than "I think Snarky could have posted more content".

He justifies the weakness of this post by talking about how he couldn't get anything done because of the CoM wagon but that's just not true; the only thing that he tried to get going was a Nosferatu wagon, but it's not like he actually pushed for one; the only interactions he had with her after her vote were questions and then saying that she looked townier. He also talks about how his top scum reads (which were Nosferatu, Lowell, Bella) weren't very involved in the wagons, but that's also inaccurate; Lowell and Bella were both voting Snarky, and the only reaction Ollie has to that is a throwaway mention of it at the very end of the case whereas if Ollie was town I would expect two of his scumreads voting a major wagon that he's not that sure about in the first place to be more of a sticking point.

Just because I never mentioned specific posts doesn't mean I didn't attempt to work out CoM's alignment. I ISO'ed both them & Snarky. & I found CoM confusing & had my previous Hydra in the back of my mind which made that ok to me. Plus how stuck people were on them. Who cares if no one mentioned the thought process I went through? Do you have a point there?

Why would my case on Snarky be strong? I was deciding between two players I wouldn't have chosen to lynch. I made that clear. He was the lesser evil. I didn't have a big interest in lynching any of the main 3 wagons. & at that stage I was questioning my other reads after Nos who I'd put alot of energy into had finally opened up, & only Lowell was still a scum read, stronger after CoM's flip.

[Ollie]

And I don't understand what you need explained in detail at this point; I'm not making a scum case on her because she's getting lynched, and I never said that she was town (in my post backing off her, I said that I wasn't confident that she was town, but we should heavily consider the possibility). If you think something about my process was unnatural, I would rather you point out what struck you as weird instead of asking me to repeat the entire process.

I'd rather you pointed out what you didn't understand instead of asking me to repeat the process as well but yet you seemed ok with asking me to do it so why shouldn't you? Bit of an odd reaction to a simple request & laced in hypocrisy I might add.

You didn't correct me when I implied you were town reading Ranger so I was operating on the theory that if you were town reading her & she were to flip scum that wouldn't be in line what I think Rach has done (bus), giving you town credit. But now you appear to be sitting on the fence which I don't like at all. Thanks for clearing that up. Wasn't so hard was it?

[Ollie]

Why weren't you engaged in the game?

Because I wasn't posting?
I go through periods of time when I'm tired after work and tend to do things that don't take as much thinking and focus as mafia does, and I post less during those times. When I fall behind in games, I have a harder time catching up since usually my window of time to post in a particular game isn't overly large. What are you expecting to gain from this question?

My point was that you didn't seem interested at a crucial part of the game. & I wanted to know why. I'd still expect you to keep up with the game. Personally I have it pinned to my browser so I don't forget about it. & I'm really tired now so I don't have sympathy with that excuse, everyone can find the time to make enough posts to stay engaged if they really want to. I'm still posting cos we're not at a point of the game where anyone can coast without being a hindrance or a shit townie. & by this point I mean this day. & there's 2 of you & neither one of you were bothered enough. Let's be real here, no offence Kelbris, but under a different mod the 2 of you wouldn't even have been active enough to even still be in his game as I had to pick up on your inactivity myself after over 4 days of it & then over another day whereby the decision to replace you had even been made. I have to question that at this stage of the game.

Did I think that you were scum? Sure I did!

Why did you think I was scum at that point?

I didn't respond to you immediately probably because I didn't see your post;

WOAH WOAH WOAH, you said before that you didn't see responding to me as a priority!

if I did, I didn't respond to it because, again, I was behind as shit and responding to you why I felt inclined to put down a vote on you that didn't last very long didn't interest me nor did I regard it as important.

Which one? In order to se my post as a priority you have to see it right? If you don't remember why did you not just say that?

I didn't follow up with my read because I wasn't that attached to it in the first place thanks to the not being engaged thing.

You said you thought I was scum. You thought I was scum enough to vote for me... But you weren't attached to it. You said you didn't see responding to me as a priority which now looks like an invention as you have also claimed you might not have seen my post. Does not compute.

[Ollie]

My only problem with the ISO by the time HA replaces in is that he didn’t even look at Jim’s posting until after the fact (1010). In fact this post to Ranger (1282) gives me some unease. If Jim was “scummy as fuck” why was there no ISO mention of it until after he replaced?

Actually, I think this post is a bit of a smoking gun if Ranger flips scum - 1010 comes immediately after HA replaced into the game and made his opening posts (which were ridiculous), when before that there wasn't a single mention of Jim. I can see scum!Ollie seeing that his partner's posts are terrible and deciding to bus, but I can't really imagine town!Ollie seeing that Jim was very obviously scum and not saying anything about it until after they are replaced and someone else starts posting. In my opinion, this also hurts the towncred he got from pushing at Ranger quite a bit - it looks like he planned a bus and I don't think that he'd go from ignoring to bussing to ignoring again after the groundwork he laid down from when HA replaced in.

Which of the 3 in the slot are you saying I thought was making terrible posts so I decided to bus? I had the actual post I quoted about Jim saved in my drafts, was gonna look back at the rest of his posts & build a case later as it was all so confusing to work out (this was towards the end of day 1). But I forgot about it as Jim wasn't posting to remind me & my focus fell on the impending lynch.

[Ollie]

My point was that you didn't seem interested at a crucial part of the game. & I wanted to know why. I'd still expect you to keep up with the game. Personally I have it pinned to my browser so I don't forget about it. & I'm really tired now so I don't have sympathy with that excuse, everyone can find the time to make enough posts to stay engaged if they really want to. I'm still posting cos we're not at a point of the game where anyone can coast without being a hindrance or a shit townie. & by this point I mean this day. & there's 2 of you & neither one of you were bothered enough. Let's be real here, no offence Kelbris, but under a different mod the 2 of you wouldn't even have been active enough to even still be in his game as I had to pick up on your inactivity myself after over 4 days of it & then over another day whereby the decision to replace you had even been made. I have to question that at this stage of the game.

Can we talk about this specifically?
Why do you think that me lurking at this point in the game is alignment indicative?

Mislynch = probable loss, not a hard concept mate.

[Ollie]

VOTE: Ranger

L-2

[Ollie]

@Imperium

, stop cherry picking, respond to the rest of what I said... 2244

[Ollie]

UNVOTE:

Why did you vote Ranger while still having questions you wanted to resolve?

My vote doesn't end the day so what on earth are you going on about?

[Ollie]

UNVOTE:

Why did you vote Ranger while still having questions you wanted to resolve?

VC 4.06

day 4 has begun, it will end in (expired on 2016-06-04 18:00:00)

VOTE: Ranger

If the thread is still open in the morning I will have more to say before I go on my V/LA.

Exactly, we have a finite amount of time left. Priority 1 today is Ranger's lynch.

[Ollie]

You going somewhere?

Yes, to bed, it's 2:39am here. Good night.

[Ollie]

oops, it's actually been sunny for once in England so been actually going outside last few days lol. Anyway down to business...

really bad...

If the real doctor were to counterclaim me

possible scum paranoia...

MoI who did you jailkeep?

what the hell...

anyway apparently i didnt actually send a n1 or n2 actions.

BUT KTS did you play like you did to try & survive? That trolling shit?

[Ollie]

Just that post I thought Rach was bussing Ranger with is weak on its own. But I've seen this kind of over enthusiasm faked by scum after a good night for town...

YAY scum lynch and no kills it is a great day.

& ALOT of direct links to Ranger (we need to look at these today for everyone no matter who is lynched) through OW...

403begins Ocean’s questioning on the Ranger slot (Jim at the time). Note that his first established read on Jim despite Jim’s mixing of myself and Lowell and other items was slight Town (411). He even defends Ranger’s slot at 469 regarding my pressure on Jim for mixing myself and Lowell in his reads list.

At 594 he is back to softly suspecting Jim based on inconsistencies (one of which he defended Jim on) and Jim flaking. I can easily see this as distancing given he previously light Town read Jim’s slot and the only thing that changed is that Jim was not posting.

743 is interesting – he specifically singles out the Ranger slot as wanting content from. Wanting a partner to pull their weight?

He puts Jim as the last in his scum reads (Town!Snarky, Titus slot, Town!Com and lastly Jim) at 819.

Ocean’s late Day 1 “Everyone don’t lynch CoM we need more input” reads as LAMIST style posting on a player they know isn’t flipping scum.

If you flip town, I'd go after SnarkySnowman and Bellaphant. Both of them are scumreads. Bellaphant has been pretty comfortable with her vote on you and Snarky's play around your wagon suggests ulterior motives to me. My third scumread would probably be Jim. I'd also need to review Lowell, MagnaOfIllusion and Ollie to make sure I'm not missing anything there.

Once again Jim is tucked away at the end of Ocean’s official scum reads list.

Read 987 in context of the above quote – Severa was nowhere near to be seen on the “CoM flips Town” reads yet he’s the Day 2 focus with the Ranger slot once again positioned just outside his direct focus.

Ranger by this point has replaced in and despite him being a so called strong scum-read he does little in probing Ranger. In fact 1175 is all to be seen in that range and there is no evidence he followed up on it. And this is followed up by a shallow Ranger-meta read at 1269.

At 1278 he begins a long string of questioning Ranger. Read that for yourself and decide if that is actual scum-hunting or just a floor show. I’m leaning the latter.

Here’s why I think it is a floor show – at 1356 he hops onto a Ranger wagon I am pushing for. Then at 1478 Ocean hops right back to Snarky with no interactions with Ranger in-between. And follows up with the pre-flip 1552 which I’ve said makes absolutely no sense from someone who supposedly was scum-reading Ranger and just saw Ranger help strongarm a wagon onto Snarky.

Ocean’s early Day 3 vote on Ranger looks like a weak bus to me given he spends the majority of the day arguing with Imperium and myself on why we are Town-reading each other. Read it for yourself.

But do read his jump onto Masq at 1748 and look at the context of why he jumps on that wagon.

Rach replaces in at 1822. She slots Ranger as ‘needing to review’. Said review never happens Day 3. And as noted earlier we have 1925 which I feel is trying to peel Imperium off the Ranger is scum wagon.

[Ollie]

seriously Imperium, gonna try again...

@Imperium

, stop cherry picking, respond to the rest of what I said... 2244

Did I think that you were scum? Sure I did!

Why did you think I was scum at that point?

I didn't respond to you immediately probably because I didn't see your post;

WOAH WOAH WOAH, you said before that you didn't see responding to me as a priority!

if I did, I didn't respond to it because, again, I was behind as shit and responding to you why I felt inclined to put down a vote on you that didn't last very long didn't interest me nor did I regard it as important.

Which one? In order to se my post as a priority you have to see it right? If you don't remember why did you not just say that?

I didn't follow up with my read because I wasn't that attached to it in the first place thanks to the not being engaged thing.

You said you thought I was scum. You thought I was scum enough to vote for me... But you weren't attached to it. You said you didn't see responding to me as a priority which now looks like an invention as you have also claimed you might not have seen my post. Does not compute.

or you know, you could just keep tryna lynch me, acting like you're untouchable cos MoI is town reading you.

[Ollie]

off to sleep, nite everyone x

[Ollie]

if kill is doc, scum team is almost certainly ollie and rach. If imperium is scum I swear to jesus I'll take every game uber seriously and analyse everything to a t to overcome this shame.

Why? & why are you giving Imperium a pass?

[Ollie]

@Nos So you found it hard to read Imp without them signing their posts, you were struggling to read them, they haven't started signing their posts since, & you haven't played with them much. I saw nothing that you pointed out what changed your mind about Imp's alignment. But you have a strong town read on them? How have you been able to get over not being able to read them? Can you bring up some posts that made you town read them please. What thoughts were you thinking about their slot that you didn't articulate? I've picked out the relevant posts...

@Imperium which posts are from who, you guys haven't been signing and I haven't played with either of you enough to know your posting behaviours.

We don't sign our posts, but what would knowing whose posts are whose do for your ability to read us?

It's hard reading read progression of hydras when I don't know who is who.

You've brought up more negative stuff than town which is why I need clarification on this...

This is what I don't get.

yeah I also hadn't read your post. Get over yourself.

Assuming you just now remembered this game, why throw down an RVS vote as opposed to offer your thoughts on the non-serious content in the thread?

not RVS.

24/25 <--- who states suspicion only to come back literally an hour later to put a vote down? I could understand if it were a few minutes later and you were like "oh ya, I forgot to vote him actually" but no, he calls him tryhard scum, which is like ¿qué? cause like one thing is saying he was to lengthy in his response to a naked vote, (which I don't even get I mean when did post length become alignment-indicative) but another is calling him tryhard scum based on one post.

This is probably the best point in thread so far.

Vote: Ollie

votes ollie here

Lowell, come vote Ollie with me - it's a hell of a lot better vote than the thing you're doing now.

calls for votes on ollie here

@Ollie:

Why did you wait for an hour to vote?

24/25 <--- who states suspicion only to come back literally an hour later to put a vote down?

Why is it scummy that he came back an hour later to vote?

For the record, I don't think that it's scummy he came back an hour later to vote, just worthy of observation.

finds the matter curious here.

It doesn't make sense. If it was a pressure vote, why call for lowell to join in? Or alternatively, why not ask him the question along with your vote, not almost 200 posts later? And if my point was good, it would mean he thought it was scummy or what? Just agh.

I only saw her say there was scum on the kt wagon once, but saying there's scum on a wagon and not identifying scum on the wagon isn't hedging. It's not following through.

Do you normally take this “strict” a language approach to this game. Because it looks like you are stretching so hard to just argue against the point I made. You say it is not following through. But Bella made the statement and despite multiple requests from myself to actually commit to working that angle she has refused. So I find it realistically likely she is more likely to be scum for quite possible not actually believing what she said. Do you disagree?

I do often take a very strict approach as to semantics and syntax in games, but in this particular case it feels like by using the term "hedging" which has a known scummy connotation makes a post look scummier than it would be otherwise.

It's hard reading read progression of hydras when I don't know who is who.

The do what you should do from the start – treat the slot as a single player. Hydra dissonance isn’t something to excuse. Hydras need to coordinate their crap behind the scenes or be prepared to be held to the fire if they contradict each other.

It's still jarring imo

[Ollie]

inb4 imperium/ollie/rach scumteam sweep

Was this a serious comment? If so why did you think that?

After ISOing you I get the impression you were town reading Ranger until the hammer & yesterday. Is that true?

this coulda been communication with a scum team member...

If you're not getting anything out of this, you should probably stop doing that and try something else.

[Ollie]

Just a prod dodge for the rest of today as there's been a heat wave in England recently. I'll try & post later on tonight but going to a barbeque.

[Ollie]

Oh Only I was left of the scum who started the game but the idea until last night was that we just wanted to make sure that we got our kills through with the 2 protection roles (1 that could be used to block creating more to think about) being a major hindrance... so we went for middle of the road players who wouldn't be blocked or protected & that worked out with our kills getting through but we left some townies with alot of town credit in. We deviated from that last night as Titus thought KTS was the doc which was right. I might have went for imperium if I was on my own, thought we needed to take a chance & get someone with town credit out of the game.

& damn right I was tryna bus Ranger from almost the start of her appearance in the game. I was surprised her easy town reads of me weren't picked up sooner as a link to to me, they were so blatant & she was very scummy, I felt powerless to stop her from doing that. The time she was asked to point out posts of mine that were town & she found tenuous reasons for ALL my posts on the last page, surely alarm bells there. A weak link in our team.

There were some good town players in this game, well played town! When MoI said I was riding along on my early town cred, he was right, didn't wanna upset that. & coming out with your role at the right time was a killer as well. & well done to Imperium for being widely town read without a claim.

[Ollie]

Hey Ollie would love to play another game with you sometime