Open 633: Near Vanilla-GAME OVER

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Lowell for having I think the shortest possible post that contains a valid vote.

VOTE: magnaofillusion

Welcome back man, welcome back!

Thanks! I think ... this is one of those "Not the welcome back you deserve but the welcome back you need" things, right?

MOD - I'll be V/LA til Monday. Weekend family duties in all. Hopefully I can get a chance to check in.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I’m wondering where the little lost sheep who have yet to post – SeshatX, KainTepes, Nosferatu – are?

ABR, get in here and help me kill some newbs.

So Lowell do you usually buddy up to ABR? And just for kicks why aren’t you interested in having ABR’s slot help you lynch scum instead of pwning noobs?

VOTE: KainTepes

The sooner we get this over with the better.

Do you normally suggest policy lynches Day 1 as opposed to information based lynches?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Who says it can't be both? And I also KT is a player that heavily disrupts the flow of information, so his death D1 is a win either way.

Well from the standpoint that Kain hasn't actually posted in this thread your call can't be anything but a policy lynch at this stage. Unless you want to own up that you have information that he is scum because he's your partner. Is that the case?

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: OllieVOTE:

I forgot about this game

So you forgot about this game. And yet showed up 10 minutes after I mentioned it?

VOTE: Nosferatu

[MagnaofIllusion]

No, but having played with him more than once, I don't think it would be absurd to say that his death early is almost as good, if not better, for town as a scum-death.

I hear your stance. I guess the original question remains - do you normally champion policy lynches Day 1? Or is this specific only to Kain?

[MagnaofIllusion]

yeah I also hadn't read your post. Get over yourself.

So you are saying it was just pure coincidence that you showed up 10 minutes after someone specifically mentioned your lack of thread presence? I find it as suspect as anything else three pages into the game. Hell, it's not like you were V/LA or anything.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Uh yeah, it was coincidence. You are not so strong a presence that I would go and post specifically because

you

said I wasn't here. I was posting in other threads, why do you think I would post there and not here?

Um why again do you keep making this about that I mentioned you specifically as the point? Had anyone mentioned your lack of presence and then you popped up 10 minutes later I would find it suspect. I mean is it possible you just plain forgot about this game? Sure, but it worth poking at regardless and your reaction of "Oh get over yourself you aren't that important" pings my gut as a bit outsized honestly.

So vote stays. Plus you are an undead monster out to drink our blood, right?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magna is going to be annoying as hell, but, unfortunately, is town.

that was quick.

So what do you think that means then?

[MagnaofIllusion]

1. Do you think Lowell's townread on you makes sense?
2. Why didn't you follow up on your previous question to Lowell?

In the context of what has gone on in thread - not really. Nothing exceeding Town to be found this early in any play.

As to why I didn't 'follow up' - no follow-up was really needed. My questions weren't really ones I expected Lowell to answer. He's one of two players in this list I have any sort of common game experience with. My questions were more to see how he would react. And react he did which is good as it is the start of actual content to read.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Acryon

Lacks any engagement in the game beyond the Policy Lynch issue. At this stage there is plenty to mine to start forming suspicions.

Hey

Ocean

– why is it that you’ve read everyone’s ISO at 143 and yet I don’t see any mention of me at all in your reads list?

acryon advocated a KainTepes policy lynch & has done nothing else.

And what does that mean to you? If you are suggesting it is scummy why didn’t you vote him? You unvoted Creeper at 149 and nothing between this post and that one should have changed your opinion on Creeper. And if it is not scummy why bother posting it at all?

Mm, benefit of the doubt is he was waiting for a response from me, but it was super weird. Kt's defensiveness is not something I've seen from them, but I've played with them twice and were an easy mislynch once and a modkill the second time.

One of the votes on him is prolly scum.

If this is the case why aren’t telling us which player that most likely is?

I think that this is probably more likely to come from town than scum; it's pretty obviously an overreaction but KT is a newer player and I find that newer players tend to trend towards less words as scum, not more.

Paying more attention to yourself is a pretty common scumtell (playing for survival instead of playing to find scum); the only way this case works against Lowell is if you think that he is both aware of that tendency and that it would factor into his reads while pushing a page 2 read. I don't really think this is the case.

So do you find anything suspect about Lowell’s push on KT then? Because I find his summary of how things progressed to be at best a very slanted interpretation of Creeper’s response.

This is probably the best point in thread so far.

See this is where you lose me. Because the most damning of the exchange at 22-25 between Bella and Ollie is not that it took him an hour after posting 24 to vote in 25. It’s that he only voted for Creeper at all because Bella repeatedly badgered him about his read. And Nosferatu doesn’t address that element in his 73 at all.

Why is the time delay more damning then what I pointed out?

I'm also a little worried CoM might be scum. Which makes me sad. And that Killthestory might be town. Which makes me sadder.

I'm starting to see the Ollie case, if for no other reason than his growing frustration that no one else is voting for obvtown killthestory like he wants us to. And yes, Ollie, I do normally sheep ABR. Because it's fun. You got a problem?

I have new leader now, though, and his name is killthestory. Obvtown. VOTE: CoM I tend to think team CoM would be having a little more fun were they down. I'm getting a bit of the deflated-after-receiving-scum-role vibe from them. Which I feel is especially pronounced in hydras.

So Kill being Town would make you sad. Nope nevermind he’s ObvTown and should be followed like a sheep. This makes no sense …

And the first part about Ollie being scummy for being frustrated that no-one is voting Kill is terrible logic since

1. Kill repeatedly asked people to vote him.
2. Ollie is clearly not pushing Kill but responding to his “Vote me” spam.

Hey Lowell are you scum? It’s ok you can be honest. No-one will think less of you for it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I actually didn't read it as bella pressuring him to vote tbh

Um, ok.

Really though whether Bella said "Hey vote this person" is fairly irrelevant in the process in my mind. Bella repeatedly requested a real reason from Ollie for his suspicion of Creeper. Ollie only voted after giving his reasoning after being badgered. If you think Ollie is scum for waiting an hour to vote (which really a scum-tell as I see it) you have to think the fact that the only reason he gave said reasoning is because of Bella. Which is odd given the back and forth you had with Ollie regarding being questioned about reasoning on players and his general stance on you not giving it.

Do you disagree?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'll be honest that post was annoying enough to push me away but I'm not going to rob the town because you're being foolish.

SNIP other quotes for length’s sake …

-Killthestory is town.
-OceanWind is scum. Felt like jumping on the coat-tails of Ollie.
-Undecided on Nosferatu, and I'll admit I'm having a hard time because I think most of her accusers are very annoying.
-Not sure about Magna but his vote on me is truly terrible. The fact that anyone joined in on this absurd reasoning is insane. I have never one time seen someone use a content/activity argument based on the first 24-hour period of the game, and there is definitely a reason for that.
-ChurchOfMercy did ping me in 139. Certainly doesn't feel like ABR at all, just giving everyone a pass.

General thoughts: Several people going back and forth so much this early makes me think scum is going to have an easy time hiding this game. Also a PSA: Just because you've clogged up the game with 30 posts on D1 doesn't mean everyone can or should.

VOTE: OceanWind

Ding ding ding … vote stays. This is pure appeasement posting in an attempt to head further scrutiny.

Everyone who is interested take a look at Acryon’s ISO –

41 – Votes Kain Tepes for policy reasons.
43 / 46 / 53 – responding to my questions about his policy lynch stance.

Now that’s the first few pages. Maybe he just didn’t want to read the thread and comment on the Creeper early wagon and any of the play then. But later he returns for the following posts –

91 – Yet another response regarding his policy lynch stance, this time to Imperium.
93 – Pure fluff saying “I can’t say I will not screw up calling Kain Creeper and vice versa”

So there was nothing worth even discussing by Page 4? Not at all? I disagree.

But I call him out on lack of content and almost immediately – BAM – post both trying to undercut suspicion and get some content into thread.

[MagnaofIllusion]

He actually seems to be jumping on low-hanging fruit and seems overly concerned with his standing amongst the town.

Hey it's put up or shut up time! In your next post you need to provide a quote that shows me being "overly concerned with his standing amongst the town".

GO!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Acryon - 181 is waiting for your response ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Oh I didn't see this but that's easy:

Magna is going to be annoying as hell, but, unfortunately, is town.

that was quick.

So what do you think that means then?

Indirectly about you, but still about you.

Hey

Ocean

– why is it that you’ve read everyone’s ISO at 143 and yet I don’t see any mention of me at all in your reads list?

That's interesting. Explain in more detail how you draw that conclusion - the first is quote where I'm asking jmolla for his conclusion on the matter. The second quote is a direct question to Ocean as to why he excluded me from a reads list. Both of which are clearly looking to assess other players by their analysis / lack of analysis as it were.

I like that you also gloss over my discussion with Imp where I make it clear that I don't think Lowell's Town read on me is reasonable. Which is exactly the opposite.

Vote absolutely stays.

[MagnaofIllusion]

What else you got? Oh and you don't have to keep telling me the vote is staying. I'll know when you take it off

What else do you think I need again? Your play has been suspect enough so far I'm satisfied you are a good place to vote scume. Lol, you act as if scum can't be caught purely because you only had 6 posts and it was in your first 24 hours of posting. Hint - scum can and do get caught early on. I can show you a game where I caught scum in their very first post of the game.

You fluffed through your posts until I called you out on it. Suddenly - WHAM - active Acryon. Scum reaction IMO.

[MagnaofIllusion]

lol "you fluffed through your first 6 posts of the game and then once the game actually got going, BAM you are active. Scum. Got em." It's almost as if I contribute more when there is more to talk about and it isn't the literal first 24 hours of the game.

Now let's get back to actually finding scum.

You keep suggesting it was the first 24 hours of the game when I called you out. It clearly isn't. The game started on Saturday so it is at least 48 hours old when you made your first post. It may be your first 24 hours but there was 2 full days of dayplay to discuss when you first posted.

But once again - you act as if scum aren't caught right off the bat. It happens so blindly dismissing it isn't going to make you look less like scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

In terms of votes on KT, iirc he was a day 1 mislynch the game I played with him, although I'm glad to say he's settled in a bit. I wasn't trying to be vague, 'one of the votes on him is scum and I'm not saying which', but 'due to my past experience with KT, I can easily see scum pushing a mislynch and with four votes, it's probable that one may be'.

My issue then is that you have done nothing to follow up on the Creeper wagon (other than your interactions with Ollie). Even if you are Town who doesn’t know for certain that Creeper is also Town I would think given your experience in the prior game you would think you would have pushed harder on those wagonners. As it stands you really didn’t even do much with Ollie.

ChurchofMercy

- coulda tried to stick the knife in when I was coming under fire, but said they supported me with no messing about. Wants killthestory to scum hunt, join the club.

Why do you see it as something to Town read this slot for? In your argument you are Town. Who is in best position to stick up for a Town under early fire in your mind?

I don't think it's fair to say that the only reason that Ollie voted for Creeper is because Bella badgered him about the read; I feel like it'd be more fair to say that Bella forced him to look seriously at KT. After all, the only commentary Ollie offered on KT when Bella asked him to play seriously was "he's creepy", which was obviously a joke: he could have said that he didn't have a read, and that would have been reasonable, or he could have offered a weak lean one way or another and done nothing about it and it still would have been reasonable. The reason that I thought that the observation about Ollie coming back and voting KT later was the best line of thought to follow in game because it meant that Ollie left the game, came back to the game, and noticed something that he didn't before. The reasoning that he offered (that he decided that adding pressure was better than not) makes sense; the possible scum motivation that I had in mind when pursuing was that he possible looked at the exchange between him and Bella and thought it looked a bit weak and added the vote to make his play line up with his words.

Does that make sense?

That I suppose is reasonable … and in a round-about way is more or less the read I got from that whole exchange. If anything this whole chain of discussion has been good for establishing a dynamic between Ollie and Bella that can be analyzed later as necessary.

Ugh I want to vote you very badly, but I fear you may just be overeager town.

So this I glossed over in our initial exchange but wanted to circle back to this. Are you suggesting my reasoning and vote for you was scummy? If so why are you afraid to vote for me? Because I see the “you are overeager Town” as an escape hatch you’ve built into this whole discussion so you can justify not calling me scum.

Hey you're super town and I am too. Just need to give me a minute.

For someone who dinged me for being “too concerned about his standing in the Town” this fits that to a tee. Cognitivie Dissonance anyone?

Another thing that I want to circle back to with Acryon –

He actually seems to be jumping on low-hanging fruit and seems overly concerned with his standing amongst the town.

This time I want to highlight the “Low hanging fruit” comment. He’s suggesting I’m attacking him for being a soft target for some reason. Yet he doesn’t see himself as one – he brags about not ever being lynched Day 1. So are we supposed to believe he is both simultaneously an easy target (intimating I am scum pushing on weak Town) and not one?

In the case of Ocean, there were plenty of things in his readslist you could have asked about, but instead were only interested in where you stood on it. If your goal was just to assess his analysis, why not start with what he did do and not what he didn't do? (which also happens to be about you)

Because the issue is not that he presented a reads list. The problem at hand is he supposedly took the time to do detailed ISO reviews and completely managed to miss one of the more active players in the game. Which to me on a gut level says the list is more likely to be fabricated than the result of actual work by a Town player. I’m not thrilled with his response which was “Meh, forgot you … you are Town” - smells of appeasement. But that doesn’t mean your misrep if ignored.

You guys, I'm known for being useless Day1, NAI. I'm more of a Day3 player.

Nope nope nope nope nope nope ….

Kain, on the other hand, has been pretty active elsewhere on the site today.

VOTE: KainTepes

If you have skills, please start using them. This hydra isn't Scum.

Bellaphant probably is.

So lack of engagement with the game isn’t a scum-tell. Yet you are voting Kain solely on that factor since he hasn’t posted here.

And you are calling Bella scum while not voting for her …

VOTE: ChurchofMercy

dude im literally too good.

church youre getting lynched today you scumlords

It would help if you’d vote for them again then Kill …

[MagnaofIllusion]

I think the reasoning is terrible. But there is often a fine line between reasoning being bad and scummy, and that was toeing it.

There's a difference between jokingly and clearly mentioning it in passing as opposed to doing it in the form of a question as to not look like you're doing it.

At the time I was a low hanging fruit. I think once you get a closer look you'll realize I'm not, but that doesn't mean I wasn't at the time within the context of the game.

Eh can't help but disagree with you here. I don't think that means he fabricated it at all. If anything it's more likely to be real since if he made it up he probably would have just listed all the players and made comments. Easier to miss one if you're going through ISO's one by one and accidentally skip over a name.

1.So it could be either scummy or just "bad" (which of course I disagree with wholeheartedly, but that's academic for this discussion). So you can go either way with it depending on how you want to frame the discussion?

2. No not really. You may call it joking but it reads to me of trying to buddy up to one of your secondary detractors at that stage. Which is something someone worried about their position would do.

3. Um, whut? So you were Low Hanging Fruit but you are not? I can't wrap my head around the level of self-contradiction here. Either you are an easy target who can get pushed for questionable reasons or you aren't. The fact that you were trying to position yourself as such in a soft attempt to attack me I find suspect given your response here.

4. Agree to disagree on this.

[MagnaofIllusion]

2. Well I think it's very clear either way that it's a stretch to compare it to what I'm accusing you of, because they look completely different.

3. You're acting as if 1) perception doesn't matter and 2) status doesn't change. As for perception, being or not being low-hanging fruit has a lot to do with the overall town's perception of someone as such. Low-hanging fruit doesn't have a strict definition in mafia since the game is so fluid and differs so much from game to game. In the situation of me, I was a low-hanging fruit to you at the time because I hadn't had a real chance to even post something non-RVS yet you jumped on me for not doing so. Players are not strictly low-hanging fruit or not low-hanging fruit.

2. So you want to differentiate it enough that you can't be held accountable for Self-Contradictory play? Got it.

3. I'm acting as if you were using weasel language to attack me, that I called you out on it, and now the phrase "Low Hanging Fruit" is some nebulous, ever-changing concept that varies from post to post. Fact is that you were using language calculated to have a negative connotation (translated - MoI is attacking me because I'm an easy target) while not being able to justify how that stance makes any sense. If you were at that point as easy a target as you say then my vote on you would clearly not be using such "bad" logic as you keep claiming. You can't be have been simultaneously be an easy target and being attacked with terrible logic that wouldn't hold up to scrutiny at the same time.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@magna- that was a long-ass post to just say you agree with the wagon.

Lowell if you had bothered to actually read it you would have observed it is certainly more than just discussing the wagon on Church. But aside from your super Town read on Kill and CoM and Creeper is scum any other observations?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Could people PLEASE stop using KT as an abbreviation? I understand Kain got replaced but there is still plenty of room for misunderstanding between Creeper and Killthestory IMO. Thanks!

--

I don't have an issue with you asking me about why I left you off the list. But having a townread in not appeasement. If I was townreading you, why would I say anything else?

Also, I don't really understand what your issue is with Acryon saying that he is hard to lynch but that people might have attacked him thinking he was low-hanging fruit because he hadn't done much of anything in the first few pages.

I can understand that my statement may not sit well with you. Maybe if I explain more clearly you’ll understand my point of view. Just because you called me Town in response isn’t the reason that said I found your response somewhat suspect. Actually what triggered it for me was the response itself. I expected something along the lines of “Oh, I forgot. Let me look at your ISO” in your response. Later I would have expected a short post (or short part of a longer post) explaining the results of your ISO read. Keep in mind this may have happened behind the scenes and you just short-cut the process. Essentially your reply somewhat reinforced my concern which reads list post which caused my original question. Every player is going to have some posts I find suspect. Personally mostly I file them in my notes and mull them over as the day and game progresses.

As to not understanding Acryon – I don’t buy it at all. Low Hanging Fruit in my mind are players like Drmyshotty (I’m drawing on my last round of play back in 11/12) who were always an easy mislynch waiting to be pushed if they were Town. The closest we might have this game appears to Creeper and I would not put him in that category myself. Acryon’s post specifically used what I see as charged language in a situation where it isn’t even close to appropriate IMO. Add in that I was already scum-reading him for prior play, simmer over a fire and the resulting recipie is a fine scum stew from my persepective.

--

Can I add the whole “backfoot” discussion is really absurd? I don’t see what Acryon is claiming at all in the Nosferatu and Ollie discussion in regards to either Nos being on the defensive or it being a 1v1 conversation that is scummy to comment on.

--

Have you played any games with Kain? There's a difference between lack of engagement and not bothering to show up at all.

"And you are calling Bella scum while not voting for her …"

Be-cause ... we ... are ... vo-ting ... for ... Kain. Derp.

Um enlighten me – how is not showing up to a game more indicative of having received a scum role Pm than giving low effort? I’d really like to know. For the record – never had the pleasure of playing with Kain.

I’m dinging you on not voting Bella while calling her scum because you are calling Bella scum for things that actually happened in thread while voting Kain for being completely absent. Unless you have some big explanation for me about that being a scum-tell I don’t quite see that a Town oriented thought process.

I am fine with a ChurchOfMercy lynch today.

I'm diffident about whether to read through for other scumreads as well before seeing the flip.

So to be clear - are you calling church scum or just want them lynched because they voted Kain?

Nothing is scummy about it at all because if I were scum I wouldn't care about the flip!

#bestlogic

Is this comedy? I hope this is comedy.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hello sorry I haven't been on in the past few days, some things popped up

So I'm going to read the thread a few times and make a read list on my thought so far

This I would like to see.

I'm not particularly sure this tell is something we should be chasing rather than trying to sort out what has already been occurring. Why did you choose to ignore taking a side on the KT and Lowell debacle?

Because I don’t see an RVS wagon and Creeper’s response to be meaningful to alignment in any way IMO. And Lowell … he’s Lowell. I don’t expect high levels of engagement or strong logical play. So seeing that attack out of him reads as flat Null to me. Personally I think you are reading way too much into Creeper’s post as an exercise in “faking” Town easy going nature. It was a single vote that prompted it. Why exactly do you think he would need to fake a Town attitude off a single RVS vote?

Is this a common scum tactic you've seen? Turning around immediately after they are called out for doing or not doing something to then right the wrong and abate some of the suspicion? Forgive me, but I fail to see what scum would ever do something like that.

You are forgiven. But in all seriousness – for a large swath of scum appeasement style posts I find to generally be a good tell to go with. You in this post also mention several instances of appeasement posting (ex: Ollie’s vote on Creeper after Bella interaction). I find these type of “get mentioned and come running” posts to be a variant on appeasement posting.

Now there are several strata of player-types that doesn’t work for. Mainly the super-boastful and the well seasoned vets. Luckily we don’t have the worst style of offender in this game for the former and I purposefully didn’t bother even trying that sort of poking and prodding on the later in this game.

Magna, what is your read on jmo?

Null. He’s pretty much non-engaged. I don’t give any ‘dumb Town’ credit for 32-33 but it certainly doesn’t warrant scum-points either. I can see why, if he doesn’t know Lowell from Adam, Lowell’s call of me as Town early would be suspect. 62 is full of logical Town oriented thinking. His line of thinking in 179 and 206 about scum being in best position to call other players Town on little basis is a theory I believe in personally. Hell, if not for the fact that he is very non-engaged (other than going after Lowell and Killthestory) I’d probably be very comfortable with a fairly solid Town read on the slot.

[MagnaofIllusion]

This makes sense; I guess that my scumread on him was mostly founded on previous experience with him (he's not usually this disconnected from a game) and thought maybe that OW's townread on jmo was him protecting a scumpartner in a better position than Church, but now I'm coming around to the fact that I'm probably getting too ahead of myself, hence not minding this Day going a bit longer so I can get a better bead on some of the lower volume posters.

I understand this but a quick glance at that link shows it is like 3 years old. Not to say that it might not be a valid observation - we haven't really seen enough of jmo to make a firm opinion IMO - but I wouldn't feel comfortable leaning on it as of now.

What do you know of Klingon? I'd like your thoughts on the whole "Kain is scum for not showing up but low engagement is not a scum-tell" thing. Because that causes my alarm klaxons to go ringing big-time. Am I overthinking?

[MagnaofIllusion]

371 is a nice feature that I think got added during my long haitus. Thanks, I’ll use it!

VOTE: Jim

man CoM should die just for the sake of being annoying

Cool story bro! Or are just waiting to hammer if he’s put back at L-1?

Here, let me help you with that:

Low-volume means volume, just not a lot of it. Some players actually make just one or two short posts per day on this site. The posts generally contain some content.

This is opposed to a flake, someone that completely ignores the game.

How can you not see that the flake is clearly scummier than the low-volume?

Let me help you then – you haven’t established in any degree that flaking from a game before making a single post is in any way related to alignment. End of story. So no matter what else you want to say on the matter until you can provide copious links to this site where repeatedly and consistently someone flaking without making a single game post is indicative of a scum role PM I’m not going to buy your vote makes any Town perspective sense.

Long Story Short – Voting for a player without a single post to judge for content as opposed to a player you call scum for in-game posting without any logical base to do so is scumtastic.

Newer scum players sometimes have issues immersing themselves in a game. Given that RVS is predominately injokes and sarcasm, that's often viewed as the best way to get into a game. The vote's not the cause for it, the immersion is.

Meh. RVS is whatever you make of it in my mind. But you point I can see from an experienced perspective. Care to share your main?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hopefully this is followed with the reads list you promised you'd be making ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I’ll be V/LA from around 1 today until Monday morning for normal weekend family duties.

Creeper and Jmo not following through with their reads-list / catchup I find annoying. There is no excuse at this point not to be contributing to finding scum. If you guys are Town you are doing it wrong.

Severa has explained her scumread on the ABR/Klingon hydra!
Focus must not be diverted. Let's lynch scum, kay?

Severa has not provided input on anyone else in the game. This is very suspect. Reads list pronto!

I would like to end the day shortly after KT gives us his reads list.

Any particular reason?

I attributed my discrepancies with him to Lowell by mistake.

Um, what? You somehow mixed up Lowell and myself? How does that even happen given we are pretty much antithetical to each other’s playstyle? Maybe Imperium or Ocean I could see. But Lowell? I don’t find this as credible.

Upon reading back, I realize I was mixing up people. That being said, I need to rearrange some of my list. It's Ollie and Magna, and the reason is because they were using the same strategy to approach the game, where it makes sense for one to be scum but not both.

Knowing you are an experienced alt this strikes me as highly suspect. Playstyle does not dictate alignment. There is no reason to assume two players with similar playstyles could not both have drawn scum.

Why don’t you repost you ‘corrected’ reads list, hmmmm? I’d like to see where your reads actually are supposed to be.

You've been here 4 years longer than I and you don't know site or player meta? Hmph.

Some players are known for playing like trolls.

Let's just say certain ones are more likely to disappear when they roll Scum.

Given you’ve already stipulated you understand Kain site-flaked I’m curious – do you think he just decided he was scum in every game and decided to stop playing on Mafiascum?

And I’d love some links to support your premise. You haven’t shown me anything other than generic platitudes that do jack crap to support your supposed position. Now I know doing work is hard for scum …

VOTE: Bellaphant

Everyone get the fuck off Com before I fucking deathtunnel you

CoM does flip scum and this is where I’m going next. I could see Kill bussing CoM for underperforming, realizing that there was no significant pressure elsewhere and deciding that he wasn’t going to get enough Town cred to make the bus worthwhile.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Are you fucking stupid? I was the one who started the CoM fucking wagon and put the most pressure on him. I just feel he's town, and that Bella is definitely scum

Nope. Can you read what I wrote? Because I find it pretty clear. I don't see any reason at all for you to have pushed them as scum for so long and then quietly said "Derp, nevermind they are Town" with nothing from the slot that reasonably changes your mind. Let me guess - gut I know right?

I like the fact that you address me here like Town who is stupid, as opposed to scum who is partners with Bella and Ocean like your said earlier. Did you forget you said that?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Here’s a quick narrative for anyone who has questions about Church. Read only with their ISO and you can see why they need rope –

“Hey let’s jump on Creeper wagon for clearly terrible reasons.”

“Um I’m going to attack Killthestory as being bad at this game for suspecting me.”

“Hey here’s some pointless self-meta …”

“Ok now I’m going to vote someone who hasn’t made a single post in this game and site-flaked while softly suspecting Bella”

“Ok now scum is Imperium, Kill, and someone unnamed.”

“Tons of AtE and sarcasm with not a lick of scum-hunting. People love that.”

“Kill you are terrible you can’t even catch a single scum.”

“More AtE and calling Town stupid and noob”

At this point Killthestory reverses gears and calls CoM bad Town and calls Bellaphant scum.

“OMG Kill is aweseome Bella is scum one down two to go”

It really is pretty telling that CoM spent every minute up to the point where Kill reversed fields calling Kill out as bad (and sometimes Mafia sometimes not) but the minute that Kill gives a ray of hope suddenly CoM is 100% onboard with Kill as great at this game.

Also note how softly Bella is suspected by CoM – that flows in and out of their reads (sometimes Bella is Null-Town) and never is Bella the best bet for a lynch. Classic case of soft distancing. CoM flipping scum makes Bella a great choice Day 2.

--

the way she's playing feels scum. i dont know why, but it does.

and if i try to put it into words here it wouldn't make sense or wouldn't be enough to push her lynch

Sorry, not derailing the Church wagon for random gut. Given how soft-distanced CoM has set themselves up with Bella you’d have my 100% support if CoM flips scum today though.

Are you saying that you think Jim made up that explanation after the fact?

It’s possible. I don’t buy for a second anyone mixed up our slots. No playstyle intersection, no avatar confusion and there was significant discussion around Lowell’s early Town-read of me that several people found suspect. Do you think it is a reasonable mix-up to have made?

I don't like this at all. At least one of these is bad. It doesn't make sense for it to be KTS at this point and I still feel like he's town, so my voting intent stays on CoM.

Yet your vote isn’t on him and has never been on him based on your ISO. Church’s wagon is just sitting at L-2 and lack of push to actually complete the lynch has taken over this thread.

Why are you not voting him?

In 349, I asked CoM to join me in making a jmo push. Albert said that he'd talk to Klingon about it, and then never brought it up again.

I found this interaction as far more likely to be indicative of partners than Killthestory suddenly deciding to not scum read Church for unknown reasons, especially considering how CoM followed Killthestory onto Bella and egged him on in the way that they did; I think CoM would be more careful to tie themselves to a partner in a strong position, especially if Killthestory decided that he was going to stop bussing them for a little while.

I didn’t really suspect them as partners. That was done solely to see what Kill’s reaction would be. I’m satisfied that Kill’s reaction doesn’t seem likely to come from a partner at this stage.

And I disagree with the jmo – CoM connection for reasons we previously discussed. If anything Bella in my mind is a very strong bet for partner given the soft distancing the CoM slot has done from them. I mean look at 483 … CoM’s vote is on Bella after the “WE GOTTEM” post but Bella is the second person who needs flipped after CoM is lynched and not the first?

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI and KTS are just both such... intolerable players.

Sure, whatever floats your boat.

Since you are here - who else beside Church is scum? Who are your Town reads?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I approve of Lowell, Imperium and MoI on the COM wagon, ergo I approve of the wagon itself, but I believe there is still ample time to probe various posters' opinions.

This post lacks the affirmative stance that you think CoM is actually scum. Please share in a positive manner with the class if that is the case. Especially given that you are voting Kill.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yes, they are strongly possible scum and I am willing to vote them once the deadline drops to 3 days.

As a player here since the beginning I would like to ask you what behaviours and stances you think I should pay attention to as I look at this thread.

The thread is only 21 pages long. I don't think a full re-read is out of the question. I want you paying attention to every post looking for scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I wonder where Jim got to. Especially since he was keen on completing the CoM lynch soon after Creeper returned with reads. And isn’t voting.

ChurchofMercy is interesting, because I see a lot of associatives with them (and a lot of info to be gained from that lynch), but I don't necessarily think they're scum, so I'd like to consider. Let me read that one a little more thoroughly.

Severa, on the other hand, has done almost nothing and I feel like that's a particularly worthy lynch, if we run up against it. Also, UNVOTE:

The only way associations are meaningful is if the flipped party is scum. I’d really like for you to complete your read and give us your CoM thoughts.

I fail to see how this is her hedging.

You do? Please explain why repeatedly saying that there is scum on a wagon but doing nothing in relation to tracking down said scum from their play re: the wagon isn’t hedging against giving actual reads.

I know MoI pretty well. He is equally querulous and irascible as both town and other alignments, but is more likely as town than scum to make posts like:

Your approach I like but you get demerits for the use of the word “querulous”. Bad Xisi.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I only saw her say there was scum on the kt wagon once, but saying there's scum on a wagon and not identifying scum on the wagon isn't hedging. It's not following through.

Do you normally take this “strict” a language approach to this game. Because it looks like you are stretching so hard to just argue against the point I made. You say it is not following through. But Bella made the statement and despite multiple requests from myself to actually commit to working that angle she has refused. So I find it realistically likely she is more likely to be scum for quite possible not actually believing what she said. Do you disagree?

It's hard reading read progression of hydras when I don't know who is who.

The do what you should do from the start – treat the slot as a single player. Hydra dissonance isn’t something to excuse. Hydras need to coordinate their crap behind the scenes or be prepared to be held to the fire if they contradict each other.

^^^ this is a scummy post

Insert facepalm smilie here …

I'm incredibly skeptical of SnarkySnowman putting me as sole confirmed scum with current levels of content from my slot.

Feels like an attempt to generate a counterwagon. CoM flips scum that's my first priority.

So what is the take-away here? Are you stating that your slot has such a lack of content it is impossible for someone to draw a realistic scum-read on you?

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I’ll be V/LA from approximately 5pm today until Monday morning for my usual weekend family duties.

The fact that we’ve had such trouble getting Church to L-1 in the first place combined with this sudden very, very late day counter-wagon building makes me feel even better about the CoM lynch.

Stop lynching CoM today please.

Nope.

I'm saying that you /can't legitimately be scumhunting/ because you wouldn't come to me as your sole scumread based on that.

Um why not? Frankly your reaction is a bit outsized for my tastes.

You replaced a flaked slot with no posts. You hop on the leading wagon with no reasoning other than “CoM is scum” and have done NO scum-hunting despite there being a thread full of content to discuss. Not hard to see your slot as a strong scum candidate – I certainly do.

Especially in light of the whole “CoM is scum but I think Snarky is a much more interesting wagon. And the subsequent "Stop lynching CoM". Which reads as a last ditch effort to derail the CoM wagon to me.

Also the following –

For the record, 'day 3 player' is another way of saying 'I can't scumhunt without associatives!'

Yes, I have not given a strong read on anyone besides the two of you. I don't have a strong read on anyone besides the two of you. I scumread CoM, he's getting lynched, I'm in no rush to do massive reading with no flip.

Banging on Klingon for “not being able to hunt without associations” and then saying “nah, I don’t want to do a big read until we have flips (and therefore associations)” is self-contradiction and scummy.

[MagnaofIllusion]

If I wanted to derail the CoM wagon I'd have done it long before he was at L-1.

That's funny considering you replaced in with CoM at L-2. But please keep on keeping on with the flailing to save CoM.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Are you just insipidly foolish or scum?
I mean I know you're insipidly foolish but are you scum as well?

SS basically scumclaimed and I want to lynch him. I would have absolutely no issues going back and lynching CoM after a SS lynch.

But that's my priority at this time because SS is 100% scum whereas CoM is only like 85%ish.

Well no. Sorry but disagreeing with your view doesn't result in that binary output. But this is the second time your reaction to someone challenging or accusing you is "LOLZ YUZ SCUM OR STUPID YO". Which doesn't generally make me think even if you are Town that I should hold your views in high regard.

The last two sentences are buzzword bingo which, ironically, is something you yourself just accused Snarky of doing in regards to you.

CoM is getting lynched today. Sorry if your last minute attempt to derail that is destined to fail.

[MagnaofIllusion]

If CoM flips town doc me so I can powerlynch this and SS.
This is the most blatant chainsaw I've seen in my life.

Lol. Just lol.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Imperium is so Town it hurts. Any concerns I might have had in the deep recesses of my mind have been washed away in the avalanche of their posting the last 24 hours.

I am also highly suspect of the pool of players saying "I think CoM is scum with [insert player of choice], I just want [player] lynched first for [reasons that make no sense]". Imperium has nailed it right on the head - CoM's play has been scummy and they have done nothing but AtE and Appeal to Fear and try to hop on whatever lifeline alternate wagon may present (Bella, Snarky). Their "Creeper is scum for that reaction" then followup with "Creeper is low hanging fruit" should be enough to convince you that they aren't actually trying to make reads but are manufacturing statements to fit the game-state.

If the thread is still open when I get back from V/LA I will have to address several of Ocean's posts because my quick read-through shows me several things I find suspect.

[MagnaofIllusion]

:v I'll hammer if no objections to waiting

Could you give me an hour - very busy today. Thanks!

[MagnaofIllusion]

We had no trouble getting ChurchOfMercy up to L-1. People kept unvoting because they didn't want them in hammer range but for the vast majority of the day, ChurchOfMercy was the default lynch option. It's only now that another option emerged. What trouble are you talking about?

See this is the kind of response that drive me nuts. Why would you not want someone you read as scum not within hammering range? Especially when the game Day is well past 3/4ths done. I’m sorry but that sort of ‘caution’ is just an exercise in thread inflation. The thread has blossomed from 27 pages when I went V/LA to 40 now. And I will argue with you as much as you want that this hardly constitutes a benefit to Town – a good portion of the thread in that page range is more or less noise IMO.

So another lynch option has emerged? So what. Are you saying it is a better lynch option than CoM. I disagree completely. CoM has been scummy this entire day. But let me address the “lack of depth” accusation you’ve been throwing my way multiple times since I went V/LA. How is my CoM read lacking in depth?

There is nothing in CoM’s ISO that indicates they are actually interested in finding scum. Let’s talk about the many ways this is evident.

1. The contradiction of jumping on Creeper’s wagon but later in the day Town reading the slot as “low hanging fruit”.
2. The insistence in voting the Kain slot (who had not posted in thread) over the claimed scum Bella slot (who actually had posted in thread) with the justification that Kain was obviously more scummy for having flaked yet not being able to support that position with anything other than “you don’t know site meta”.
3. Alternating waves of pointless sarcasm, claiming scum and Appeals to Emotion and Fear.
4. Hopping on every wagon that looks to save their own necks with that being the sole justification.
5. Complete void of scum-hunting from the slot.

Again – this is a summary. Do you disagree with my statements here?

I’ll continue with my discussion of your “lack of depth when we discuss my Severa read.

Are you saying Severa is mafia with ChurchOfMercy or that he's mafia in the event ChurchOfMercy flips town? If the former, do you think he was bussing?

My townread on him comes from how he reacted to the case on him. The sudden aggression looked like town that thought they finally found something strong to push on. Severa wasn't in any real danger of being lynched so I don't know why he as mafia would panic at SnarkySnowman catching him and push back hard rather than stay on the bus/mislynch of ChurchOfMercy and put off Snarky for the following day.

Yes I’m saying I think Severa makes a reasonable candidate for scum with CoM. But let’s get back to my “lack of depth” of read. Bring up Severa’s ISO and read along.

Severa replaces in and her first posts 296, 302and 302 are all more or less fluff. In 302 she suggests she’s OK with the CoM wagon. More short, contently posts follow without a vote until finally we get a vote at 337. Here next handful of posts are more fluff basically re-iterating her vote on CoM. In fact her first alignment indicative post about anyone other than CoM is 576 where she makes suggests Snarky is scum with CoM and is trying to generate a counter-wagon on her.

To this point I see a player who has hopped on the dominant wagon with little reasoning and isn’t looking at anyone from a scum hunting perspective how doesn’t address her. In fact during this period I asked her for reads (see 445 as example) which she dutifully ignored. This ISO doesn’t read as Town looking to find scum. It reads very much to me as possible bussing partner.

612 is her first vote-switch to Snarky. Her reasoning is basically superficial – he doesn’t have reason for thinking Severa is scum. CoM is still scum “on principal” at this point but now Snarky could be scum with them or scum wanting to line up a mislynch on Severa. Her next post is a vote back to CoM and claiming Snarky and CoM are buddies.

Again through here we see no interest in looking at anyone other than the one player calling her scum. She still fails to interact with CoM in any meaningful fashion.

618 is her post where she justifies her vote move back Snarkly because “the wagon is more interesting”. This is where my scumdar really started triggering on her. The justification of moving from a solid wagon to start a new one on a supposed CoM because it “is more interesting” is very scummy. Note this is before Snarky’s actual case was made.

Snarky makes his case at 613. Is it great? Nope. But it does absolutely valid points. His point about post 312 I agree with as evidenced above. His point that Severa was “de-railing” the case made by Kill on Bella was pretty nonsensical. But that doesn’t make it scummy. And the thrust of his Bella / Severa discussion is revolves around the fact that Severa isn’t willing to look at Bella at all through the prism of someone looking for other scum. And he was absolutely right on that issue – as I noted above Severa had gone out of her way to refuse to look at anyone besides CoM and Snarky. Generally a ham-handed presentation but with valid points.

From this point Severa latches onto Snarky and begins the attempt to move the wagon from CoM to Snarky. 620 is a direct request to stop lynching CoM simply because Snarky is scum. She further now starts to inject doubt about CoM as scum at 621 by suggesting that Snarky is scum regardless of CoM’s alignment. She continues to straddle the fence on CoM at 631

This is where I began to seriously consider Severa as a possible partner for CoM. Because many of the accusations she throws at JMO I’ve highlighted above as exactly what she was doing – no scum-hunting or any desire to actually discern alignments. But now thanks to Snarky’s case there is something for her to try and exploit as scum behavior aside from CoM’s scum play. And when I question her about trying to derail the CoM wagon she either tries to shrug it off “I would have done it much earlier” or calls me scum chainsawing for Snarky.

This is more or less exactly where I went V/LA.

I see an experienced partner hiding behind an alt (which was clear from her comments and she does not deny) who saw an opening to push a counterwagon to a partner and took it. Of course if CoM is by some reason not scum that associative tell goes out the window.

But again to address my point – how exactly does my read “lack depth”. Just because I lack time on the weekends to generate a large post like this doesn’t mean I’m not thinking about my stances.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Wow. An hour to the minute to produce that one response. I'm sifting through the noise from this weekend. I'll post as I can but feel free to hammer CoM. I don't want any shenanigans surrounding the wait for deadline.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Killthestory

This is where I am starting with my vote today. Honestly his play at the tail of yesterday shifted into coasting with no real push on anyone as scum. Just fluff like “Lol if I’m wrong I’m deathtunnelling myself tomorrow”. His jump off CoM with no significant reasons to be seen could certainly be scum wanting to not be held accountable for the mislynch on CoM that he helped drive in the inital stages of the wagon. Finally – he’s one of the two player Xis really had suspicions of besides CoM (Snarky is the other) and while Nightkill speculation is just speculation I don’t see any dropped hints in Xis’s ISO that say PR breadcrumbing.

@Ocean

– in regards to 987 I have some questions –

1. Why did my case seem compelling enough to help shift your read on Severa given that the main thrust of my case revolved around Severa as a partner? I have my doubts that scum would replace in and just weakly slide on a mislynch of CoM the way she did. So while the case may be well developed I personally don’t find it nearly compelling give CoM’s flip.
2. What motivated your change overnight about your belief in the strength of Snarky as scum?

I'm appalled at the wagon on me.

SS remains scum.

I’m appalled you haven’t even bothered to vote Snarky at all today. Why exactly is that?

VOTE: Severa

Nothing has really changed for me overnight. This still needs rope.

So you are saying nothing about CoM flipping Town or Xis flipping Town changed your reads in any way at all?

Here are your reads from before -

Town {MagnaofIllusion, Oceanwind, Ollie}
Townlean {Bellephant, Jim, acryon, Killthestory}
Scumlean {Lowell, Imperium, Nosferatu, ChurchofMercy}
Scum {Severa}

First I notice you never gave a read on Xis’s slot. Why was that? Second if Severa is scum who do you think are her partners are? Church as flipped Town so your initial posted scum-leans were Imperium, Nos and Lowell.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Can we all stop dragging our feet and vote Severa?

Why exactly are you rushing the day again? Thread has been open for what, 24 hours? I personally want to see what Imperium has to say after the flip. And several other players haven’t checked in either.

Here’s a task to keep you busy – resummarize your case on Severa highlighting the two strongest pieces of evidence you think proves she’s scum.

Can you explain this for me? Last I heard, com was 'bussing' me.

Like, you've never explained this.

@Sev, I asked you a bunch of questions yesterday and you said you weren't interested in talking. You gonna bother now?

Hey Bella whole lot of empty posting from your slot. Who are your top three scum-reads with reasons why – go!

MoI is the worst scumhunter I've ever met. Well, maybe just pretty bad.

Also, Several still scum. Way too easy to see

See perfectly reminiscent of the lazy, disconnected posting of his recent Werewolves Mini (where he was a serial killer) as opposed to his posting in Formation of America’s Mafiascum (where he was Town). Both share his style but Formation showed him wiling to present reasons why people were scum and comment on things not related to himself.

Happy with my vote.

Although given the weak distancing Kill displayed to Severa Day 1 without ever voting for her I could see them as possible partners. Read his ISO. He calls Severa scum or possible scum multiple times but after his jump off CoM never votes her. Just idled his vote with “want to hammer” stance.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Erm. MoI.

Though that should have been obvious by context.

To this I say - Lol. You need an alt. Calling me terrible makes my day.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD I will be V/LA from 5pm EDT today until Monday for my normal family weekend duties.

I'd appreciate comments on my case.

Sure –

I’m not going to quote 987 in full as that would just be a cluster for people to scroll through. On your points –

1. Chaining Mislynches – on a whole I can see and agree with this point. Severa does exhibit multiple instances of either trying to tie players to fault for the CoM lynch (which in the end she actually supported) or attempting to get Snarky to be the delegated lynch for today. Certainly could be the case that she felt Snarky was an easier push than myself or Imperium.

2. Setting up conflict between Imperium and yourself – could certainly be scum motivated assuming both of you are Town – dividing Town via exploiting personality conflicts is a pretty standard scum tool.

3. Burdon of Prociency – probably the weakest part of your case. What you quoted from 893 is probably the closest I’ve seen to Severa not screaming “I’m the best” given the phrase “But if we’re going to be doing this forever and you won’t be hitting scum for it I’ll start to have a problem” contains if and start to have as context providers.

4. Chainsawing – I agree that was just plain terrible on Severa’s part. 50 / 50 on whether it is scum trying to play buzz-word bingo or just her ego showing.

I can see the merits. Actually your Alone case is pretty compelling also. He’s basically done nothing the since replacing in other than sheep the dominant wagon and the reasoning in 1003 is pretty scummy.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Back from V/LA –

I’m not sure why everyone would have a Town read on Kill’s slot. 1041 is a perfect example of what I was talking about and the pages 43-44 ego-measuring exchange with Radiant is nothing but noise and blather. He’s just cruising by. Mostly curious why Radiant isn’t paying attention though. Especially 1067 which reads as “Crap … do I jump off and or stick to my guns on this read” upon realizing it is Radiant behind the mask which is a scum thought process if Radiant is Town.

Also I am reminded that yesterday nacho thought that severa outing her alt to us looked townish.

Nacho needs to explain why outing an alt is Townish because I see it as completely devoid of any alignment connotations. Either Radaint scum or Radiant Town was not being listened to and coming under fire today led to the reveal which is survivalist (also not alignment indicative). So I’d like to grok the logic behind that Town read.

But. Ranger would have no idea what Magna's scum game or town game looked like. He's been gone since 2012 and just came back. He doesn't have a finished game to his name since Ranger has been around.

Yeah, this. Ranger would, of course, certainly know I’m not her partner and thus be happy to throw so “Oh, I can read MoI” into the mix.

I'm starting my readthrough now, but I think Drunk RC is town and I think that if he's calling SS a scummy scumperson, SnarkySnowman was probably a scummy scumperson.

Willing to just accept on a single post Radiant’s word without reading the thread at all. Scum-tastic.

So Ranger – how many times as Radiant scum fooled you? Just curious.

I know, according to the wiki, that means I'm one scumread short. It also means I'm townreading one player I shouldn't be. That's what the remaining 12 pages are hopefully for.

This is very forced. Pre-explaining why she doesn’t have the requisite number of scum in her reads-list is the kind of posting scum think to make in advance.

Well on the one hand.

Pretty sure this confirms me as town.

I’d really like to see any explanation for this. Really … all ears.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magna - This is what Nacho was referencing. I played with RC in newbie 1672 a couple months ago. He outed himself to me here, which Nacho thought was townish.

I don't agree with the practice as I think if you're going to play as an alt, you should play as an alt either secret to everyone or public to everyone and not out meta knowledge you wouldn't know.

But, outing that to me did let us know who he was right off the bat and therefore we had knowledge of his play style we wouldn't have otherwise. Nacho will probably explain this better though.

See that I find scummy. It was pretty clear he was an alt early on. His comment on Klingon always scum reading him makes little sense when the slot has no posts not in this game. Hiding behind an alt (which Radiant has already claimed he was doing - look at his interaction with Ollie on that front) while selectively trying to communicate to certain players reads as wanting a play-style pass for behaviors from said subset of players to my mind is pandering - similar to what Lowell was knocked for in "gathering up allies".

I'd still like elaboration from Nacho.

[MagnaofIllusion]

i will sheep my hero ranger

UNVOTE:

lol at all these sudden scumreads

How does this not have more votes? Seriously …

You're acting like you're not a well-established player recreating herself under a new alt. Everyone knows who you are, and no matter how much you deny it when people point it out to you and your main, you keep making posts like this that betray the fact that you have been here for years.

I don’t. Clue me in. If it is someone I should know then it could have a significant impact on my assessment of Ranger.

Is it Faraday?

While it's true, he hasn't been as, shall we say, aggressive as is typical of his town game, the way he acknowledged it felt town to me as well. I got the impression his "I don't really care" attitude was still present, just in a more laid-back, casual manner. When he has pushed, his pushes look like they're in that specific mind set, one of, essentially, "I'm not doing much, but this feels right, and I don't care what others think of it". Admittedly, I don't have too many games with Killthestory, like three or so town games and one scum game, but this simply...doesn't feel the same as what he did in Longnight.

Yeah, no. This looks very much like a “I’ll give my partner a pass on meta” posting to me.

I get that you don't like the idea of some random player being able to peg you, but...

I can peg you.

And you're not scum this game.

I'm even more sure of it now.

You seem to be not understanding – I don’t care what your stance is on whether you can”peg” me or not. It is irrelevant. I think your slot is scum. Very easy to claim a Town read on me based on fluff “meta and stuff” in an Open Set-up when you know going in who is Town and who is not.

Wrong. I cannot explain why at this time, but RC's description of SnarkySnowman's behavior made me want to vote SnarkySnowman, for a very specific reason. As in, very, very, VERY specific reason. I wish I could tell you now. I probably will be able to tell you before this game's over, maybe not by the end of this game day but probably before this game would end, and when I can tell you I have every intention to because this was actually one of the reasons why I scumread SnarkySnowman in the first place and it's very frustrating that I can't tell you why yet.

So you are telling me to just trust you …. I can’t say I feel inclined to do so at this point.

Because if I was scum, I'd know who my scumteam had killed.

I thought Xisiqomelir's slot was alive the entire time I was reading D1. There wasn't a single hint to suggest he was dead. The OP listed ChurchOfMercy as lynched, but there was no nightkill listed. My name was edited into the OP, so I knew the OP had been edited recently, and assumed it was up-to-date. With only one person listed as dead, the assumption would therefore be there was no kill last night.

Want to guess which part of this I find cutely scummier – the fact that you are trying to claim WIFOM Town status based on a Nightkill you didn’t replace in until after it had already happened or the fact that you are trying the “Oh, I didn’t know Xis is dead I’m Town” as something that makes any sense from someone so supposedly competent?

[MagnaofIllusion]

no energy.

morning?

I'm legit on V/LA on top of my exhausstion with mafia ftr.

So legit V/LA that you can post all over site without posting here ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

My Kill vote is in very much the right place. He’s begun the discrediting portion of his defense wherein he thinks lobbing insults and invectives my way will make him seem more Town. Lol.

not really

you're reads are still p trash rn and you kinda suck

This is exactly why he is scum. Kill was previously voting Radiant as scum. Unvoted to sheep Ranger. Not a single mention that Radiant is Town after that. In fact calls Snarky (Radiant’s anemic push) as obv-Town.

And then addresses Radiant in the above post as Town. Because scum’s reads don’t “suck” they are mislynch attempts.

And note not a single mention of Radiant in his “readlists” at 1228 or 1238. Kill doesn’t want to actually commit to a scum or Town read on Radiant. He’s afraid of calling Radiant scum and being OMGUSed as is Radiant’s standard play. Yet he doesn’t want to commit to a clear on the slot at this stage either. He’s just going to coat-tail Ranger’s read and decouple from it when convienent.

More Kill votes!!!!! Let’s start rolling them in.

Not permanently. But temporarily, for a short while? (Like two weeks or so.) Yes.

So in summary you are asking me to trust you for a period of time in excess of the timeframe in which the lynch you are pushing (Snarky) will take place and just want me to take your word for it that you have good reasons?

I ask because I can’t believe you’d think anyone with a scum read on your slot would do that at all.

Tell you what – if you are indeed Town vote Killthestory with me today and once you can actually speak of the reasons on Snarky I will agree to listen with full attention and consideration. Deal?

The kill happened after I replaced in, yes.

I think you mean before you replaced in. I see all your discussion about Page 1 not being updated and whatnot. Don’t care about that.

You said that if you were scum you know what player you would have killed. That makes zero sense given you were not in the game at the point the decision on the kill was made.

I have already stated why I think Xi is dead. And have some theories on scum team make-up that makes sense for the Xi kill.

But enlighten me – who would your team have killed?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hey Implosion - get your ass in here ASAP. Specifically Nacho I want to discuss the issue I inquired about earlier.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI are you like visually impaired?

Yes. Yes has to be the answer. Point withdrawn but f&ck that format I looked over those posts twice looking for Radiant at the start of line not the end.

MoI, you're seriously going to try to fight my reads?

I will lynch you if this is going to be a thing.

You have contributed jack crap about said read other than "Snarky is scum" that makes me think I should have any faith in your reads. I think you are probably Town because you play has been so sad and I can't see you wasting potential credibility on a Snarky push if you are incorrect but I'm not following you with what you are bringing to the table.

So either contribute more than the fluff you are showing or go sulk about how much you hate Mafia.

[MagnaofIllusion]

And this is why Snarky is mafia with or without RadiantCowbells. He can't string together two sentences on his reads elsewhere despite being asked multiple times. His entire focus on the game begins and ends with RadiantCowbells simply repeating that Radiant is mafia, and he never follows up on any questions asked about his other reads.

There's nobody in the game that I'm currently reading as town though so I need to reset. I'm not sure where I'm going wrong.

Sigh ... that's funny because while Radiant has been asked multiple times for reasons why Snarky is Mafia his response is "Obv-Scum" and "I'm tired and V/LA from this thread". You could literally copy-past that first paragraph, switch the position of their names and it would not change the context at all.

Yet you clearly moved from Radiant to Snarky based more or less on the fact that Snarky has been willing to engage in thread while Radiant is just busy posting up a storm all over site and not making contributions to this game. That's what I am drawing from your vote hop and subsequent narrow focus only on Snarky.

[MagnaofIllusion]

1. Post 1213 - He tells me that killthestory caused him to change his read on Bellaphant. He tells me to go find the quote myself since he's clearly too lazy to do it.

2. Post 1216 - After I bring up the relevant post to show that there is no case, rather than admit he made a mistake or clarify what he meant, he claims that killthestory brought up a "great discussion about lynching Bellaphant." You can look at the post yourself and see that there's absolutely no reason given as to why killthestory thought Bellaphant was mafia. There's a big heading telling us that we're lynching Bellaphant followed by a list of killthestory's reads with some associatives to Bellaphant. This tells me Snowman is talking out of his ass. There was nothing there that could have possibly changed his read which makes it more likely his reads are just made up.

I don’t see this as compelling in the least, frankly. Here’s the situation – Kill posted 427 which is a big long bit of stuff saying “Let’s lynch Bella – there are tons of associative tells, here’s some other junk, blah blah blah”. So you are either left with two situations – you find that reasonable or you don’t. Ranger has claimed that Kill’s early Day 1 posting was very Town and thus reasonable and this post comes right from that timeframe. Given the difficulty I have building a wagon on Kill for whatever reasons it seems like others may share Ranger’s opinion.

Your point is that you don’t buy that Snarky can be convinced to change is read on Bella based on that post. That doesn’t sell me in the least. I feel like you are trying to split hairs by saying “Kill never gave reasons” when the reasons are the associative tells themselves – Acryon being auto-Town with a Bella scum flip. Are they good reasons? I don’t believe so for a minute given my read on Kill.

My question to you is – do you not find his post reasonable? Because if so I’m not sure why someone else putting faith in it that post as inherently scummy if you find the post reasonable.

3. Additionally, his argument that "Bellaphant was a good information lynch, what information did we gain from lynching ChurchOfMercy?" is directly contradictory to his statement D1 that ChurchOfMercy was a great information lynch with lots of associatives.

See I think find this stretching. I went back and found the post in question -528. In fact Snarky in that post said specifically “ChurchofMercy is interesting, because I see a lot of associatives with them (and a lot of info to be gained from that lynch), but I don't necessarily think they're scum, so I'd like to consider.” Which is a reasonable stance given he never went for a CoM lynch and in fact has consistently gone after the Radiant slot.

On RadiantCowbells: Some players prefer playing town and have trouble staying engaged when they are mafia. For those type of players, it would be alignment indicative if they posted selectively in some games. Radiant doesn't strike me as that kind of player considering how much he talks up his scumplay.

I'm not impressed by Radiant's responses to my case which basically amount to "I'm too good to make these mistakes." I'm not townreading Radiant and I'm not even discounting the possibility of bussing but those posts by Snarky put him over Radiant as my strongest suspect. I'd like to hear what you think of them.

Well then given your question to me and this – who are your strongest scum reads then? Because this whole section reads as fence-sitting on Radiant.

Also, @MagnaOfIllusion - who are your next suspects after killthestory and why?

Ranger is probably my next biggest read. And ironically your start of Day post on Alone triggered that. I absolutely dislike 941. There is no reason to randomize a vote that far into the game and I think is scum trying to make an awkward transition into the game. And from there we get several non-sensical posts like 976specifically the Bella analysis. How does Alone have any basis in having meta on Bella regarding her posting habits? He joined less than a month ago. The transition to voting CoM has no substance as to why CoM is leaning more scum. The entire Day 1 posting of Alone seems to be awkwardly trying to assert reads with little to no reason supporting them – look how many times he says “This person is Town because they agree with my reads”.

Then we get the open to Day 2 in 1003. Alone mentioned Severa not once Day 1. He mentioned Snarky as a scum read (albiet a weaker read than CoM) Day 1. Snarky starts Day 2 voting for Severa basically saying “Whelp, nothing changed”. So Alone, who had a scum read on Snarky that has not reason to have disappated, joins the wagon Snarky is on Day 2.

I see someone who isn’t even close to scum-hunting and is just going with the flow of whatever is expedient at the moment. Ranger’s transition into the game doesn’t eliminate this highly suspect behavior by Alone and I’ve already discussed why I find her plan independently suspect from Alone’s.

Outside of that – I have a Town read on Imperium, a grudging Town read on Radiant and not much beyond that. Maybe Nosferatu but that’s based more on gut at this stage. I certainly can see scum floating along in the low content group of Ollie / Bella / Lowell / Acryon group. Ollie in particular has been sidelining quite effectively today – he’s just sitting on his little island going after Lowell and responding to the odd question directed his way. And lastly the way you are laser focused only on Snarky has me a little suspicious.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Snarky's recent posts make my town read start dying inside.

Can we get some more votes this way? Seriously this is like 50 posts after he’s called Snarky obvTown at 1224. And clearly nothing has changed at all in how Snarky has been posting in that stretch. He’s just setting the stage for his telegraphed Snarky wagon jump soon.

Well when you put it that way...yes. I suppose I can understand the hesitance given that.

What other way did you expect your “trust me post” to be viewed?

If you tried selling me on, say, Nosferatu being scum, you'd stand a chance.

A chance. Not a guarantee, just a chance.

Voting Lowell or Imperium I can do without convincing being necessary. Only those two.

You're trying to push a lynch on one of my strongest townreads.

So, no.

Well, I gave you the chance to bus. Don’t complain later that I didn’t give the opportunity.

And you're conveniently leaving the part out where if I was scum I'd have known who my partners killed because being scum means having access to the scum PT, which any scum player with so much as HALF a brain reads FIRST.

My point is, if I was scum, I'd have access to the mafia topic.
The mafia topic would contain discussion of the kill, and every mafia topic I've ever seen has allowed the mafia to submit night actions through it.
Ergo, if I had read the mafia topic, I would know who they had killed.
I did not know Xisiqomelir had been killed.
So your options are I am scum who for some ungodly reason chose not to read the mafia topic (which I have a history of reading first upon replacing in, which I can prove by my past scum game replace-ins that have daytalk),
Or that I'm town that did not have a mafia topic to see the kill in.

Ergo, town.

See this is the level of convoluted crap that makes me very happy with my scum-read on your slot. This is ton on verbiage that rests solely on the foundation that you aren’t just lying about not knowing Xis died just to establish the post you made at 1159. Of course I really am not trying to convince you that you are scum … you would never agree. But you supposedly are the caliber of player who could certainly read the Mafia QT, look at the first post and say “Hey, I’m going to use the Mod’s flub up as a way to Town myself. Watch and laugh” to your buddies.

Of course my read on your slot is driven by how Alone so this back and forth is more an exercise on my part to dissuade other readers from swallowing your reasoning just based on “It’s Ranger”.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I will be V/LA for weekend family sense of duty from 5pm EDT today until Monday morning.

Okay, how does Snarky change his read on Bella from his "townlean" group to his "scumlean" group based on kill saying "Acryon is auto-town if Bella is mafia?" It's not that he put faith in the post or that he was more willing to lynch Bellaphant because of that post. He actually changed his read due to it.

It looks to me like he is mafia faking reads on players including a townlean on Bellaphant. When he saw killthestory make that big heading saying that we're lynching Bella, he skimmed through it, assumed it was a "case," and changed his read so he could hop on the wagon if it took off whether it was a bus or a mislynch.

It isn’t out of the question the assessment you are making. However it isn’t out of the question you are tunneling a bit and reading behaviors in the slant that supports your already formed view. I know I am guilty of that on occasion when I get a strong read.

Snarky is a weak player. That much is clear to me even after my short return to Mafiascum. Weak players tend to be influenced by more vocal players in their reads. That’s not to say that weak players can’t be scum. They absolutely can. But they can be Town as well. And I see it as not surprising in the least that a weak Town Snarky would see Kill’s post and be convinced that what he read was solid and replace his own reads with his own.

Honestly the tipping point fro me on why I am not reading Snarky as scum is this – I don’t see scum Snarky behaving as he has the last two Days. He came in and chose to make a weak push on Severa for weak reasons. Scum Snarky didn’t have to stick his neck out with Town CoM poised for lynch and doing everything in their power to make sure they got deadlined. Snarky instead zeroed in on Severa and continued to do so even after the Radiant replace in. If you say “Him moving off after Radiant replaced so that would show he’s scummy for not really believing in his read” my response is two-fold

1. He’s then in a damned if you do damned if you don’t situation.
2. Well congrats that’s exactly what Killthestory did under the guise of sheeping his hero.

All in all I don’t see what Scum Snarky has to gain with his play given he’s just cruising along. Unless this is the weakest cross-bus ever because Radiant has completely abdicated any potential Town cred he would have gained with a Snarky scum flip by basically doing nothing other than repeating “Snarky is obvscum”.

I also don't understand why you are currently townreading him so I'd appreciate an explanation, especially considering you pointed out that he was posting in other games on V/LA, not engaging with this game, tunneling on Snarky, etc. What is compelling enough to outweigh all of these things and make him a townread for you?

Let’s be clear. It isn’t really a Townread per-se… at least in the same way my Snarky read is not a Townread. It is a lack of Scum-read. Which is essentially the same but different. Imperium is a Town-read of mine. I see Town motivations in Imperium’s play. I simply see a lack of realistic scum motivations in Snarky / Radiant.

But that aside – I really don’t see that Radiant as scum would push on Snarky (who is basically the lowest of low hanging fruit) in the manner he did regardless of the Snarky flip. Radiant has been downright lazy and useless. Snarky flips Town and all his “Snarky is obvscum” and nothing else means he’s pretty much dug himself a hole that is going to take copious work to climb out of. Snarky flips Scum and he really doesn’t get any Town cred at this stage – at best he’s either lucky or was weakly bussing. Neither one helps him long-term if he was scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

stop with self meta.

I personally don't care. I evaluate you based off your actions in this game, and how they correlate with what I've personally seen or felt. Any thing else means literally nothing to me.

Tells someone else to not use self-meta. Sheeps Ranger who has basically spent significant time in this game literally marinating herself in self-meta.

Can I get some more votes here?

My posts don't lack content & I've made more of them than you, so I don't know what you mean by a low content poster if I'm in that group. Elaborate?

Read what I said about Lowel here 1207 & tell me why you're not voting for him?

First rule of Mafia – don’t conflagrate post count with content. Yeah you have lots of posts. But up until you get called out in a group as low-content producing you haven’t been doing anything. 1018 isn’t content. Neither is 1091. And you’ve basically been cruising along with your sole focus on Lowell. Now I see that since both Ocean and I referenced you’ve admitted you were cruising along wanting an ‘easy game’. Take that concept and throw it out. Effort is required from every Town player otherwise you are just giving scum a place to hide in. That is, of course, if you are Town.

What about 1207 is supposed to make me jump and say “Wow, that’s a grade A case”? You have two quotes from essentially the first four pages of the game from Lowell and an argument that Lowell’s ‘ally gathering’ was scummy because he didn’t follow up on it. I think the bulk of your read on Lowell is because he’s attacking you. Which is to some degree natural. That said he’s a big fat Null read for me as he’s doing nothing helpful that I can see.

If I have to choose between voting an Active Scum-read of my own and a Null read being scum-read by someone else I’ll choose my own read every time.

That said you recent posting is back to what I expected to see of you today after Day 1. And your reminder of 1010 earns you solid Townpoints. I had forgotten Alone replaced Jim which expands even further my scum read on Ranger.

For the issue to be delayed until I would be able to explain.

The matter of a time frame didn't cross my mind.

See but it certainly can be delayed if you chose to, perchance, pursue other scum reads which you could explain. But you aren’t. You are sitting your vote on Snarky for “reasons” and doing nothing else but defend.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hey Nacho.

Get your butt in here. I want answers directly from the horse’s mouth re: why Radiant stealth crumbing as a secret alt is a Town thing for him to have done.

@Ollie / Imperium / Ocean

– so we all seem to be seeing the Ranger slot as scum, correct? If so I suggest we consolidate. I’ll set aside my Kill push for today and after I get back from V/LA I’ll review Ollie’s case on Lowell.

VOTE: Ranger

That wasn't a defence, I wanted clarification on why you lumped me in with them, because I don't belong in that group. I've given as much content as the lot of them put together. It'd make sense if the game started on day 2, but my ISO of past posts is available.

Well to be fair it was mostly motivated by your drop off today. Bella and Acryon have done mostly nothing all game long. More or less the same with Lowell. Yet you were fairly strong Day 1 and were not very visible today.

As I said above I’ll review your Lowell case in full when I get back from V/LA. I’ll be frank – he’s a very lurky player by nature. Back in my first go-round on Mafiascum in 10-12 I used to tilt at him fairly often for his playstyle. He eventually got annoyed by it thus his comment at the start of the game that it was “annoying that I was Town”. Really the seed of why I haven’t bothered to really pay attention to your case is my experience with him – Lowell has always loved to buddy up to players like ABR that he likes. On a gut level I don’t see scum Lowell not working harder to keep his buddy ABR alive. The fact is he rode that wagon like I did all the way to deadline. But that gut isn’t enough to have me set aside some serious work on your end.

He's counter attacked me, & with totally untrue shit. There's a significant difference.

Sure that sounds reasonable. Again … my comment was purely based on that one post.

You're first on that list, MoI.

Lol.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Back from V/LA –

I’ll sort through the posts in thread and gets some thoughts up. Personally in skimming via phone in my spare moments I saw a couple of things that certainly deserve prompt attention.

Also need to do my Lowell case read for Ollie that I said would happen after I got back.

Busy morning so it may be a little while before this happens.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ollie’s 1509 is dead on regarding Ranger’s read on Snarky.

Nosferatu I am now finding more scummy as time goes on. I was not really impressed with his excuse Day 1 about why he wasn’t providing reads and posts like 1357 where he basically drops in to make a doubtcast post make me think he possible scum just floating along letting the more active players slug it out. Frankly I can’t tell what his / her reads are from the most recent posting.

@Nos

– Top three scum reads (or two if Lowell is in your top 3) with at least two lines of reasoning – GO!

And Kill still needs votes. Seriously just like yesterday he’s now moved away from YET ANOTHER wagon he was on. Snarky is now Town as of 1479. So he pushed CoM as scum until he hopped off and crap-posted to deadline yesterday. Today he started by pushing Radiant’s slot until he abandoned ship to sheep Ranger. And now Snarky is Town. And he’s moved onto another ‘push’. Want to take bets how long this lasts? I mean look through his ISO and see how many times you warblegarbles up “PLAYER X IS SCUM” only to sometime later throw out a “Nah, they are Town”.

@Imperium, I agree. That's why my question was, what does Klingon being a universal scumread tell us about the other slots in the game? We know everyone posting was wrong. Why was Klingon lynched with no counter wagon?

Well if you ask Ranger there was a conterwagon on Snarky that got derailed. Do you agree with this assessment? Have you fully caught up with the game?

I can't tell if killthestory is trolling or if he believes what he's saying.

He thinks it is a clever and effective playstyle. Judge that how you will …

Which is, time allowing, exactly what I've done? I've tried working around limitations to give reasons why SnarkySnowman is scum. I've given reasons for every townread I've been asked about. I've been having this rather long back and forth between Imperium in case you haven't noticed! The only scumread I haven't pushed is Lowell, and frankly, I don't see what good it'll do. I want SnarkySnowman hanged. I have a wagon there. Lowell is inactive. Pressuring him won't do much. I'd only switch to him if I decided I wanted him lynched more than SnarkySnowman.

See I don’t see this. You’ve really done nothing on Snarky other than repeat that you have a magical, untellable reasons why he is scum. That’s it. Your back and forth on Imperium was basically a smear campaign as much as I can tell and you’ve slowly moved away from it to “hug it out”. The only other signs of scum reads from you come from your lists (which I see as more or less filler but that’s playstyle) and your many, many buddying posts to Radiant where you decry how he got to a scum-read on a player first.

[MagnaofIllusion]

For the record there was a bunch directed at Radiant's case on Snarky but I know it isn't productive to bother trying to discuss anything with him so I deleted that portion of my post.

But anyone trying to sell "Snarky saw an easy mislynch in Severa" needs either a new job that doesn't involve sales or some self-reflection. Because there is no way Snarky, who has absolutely zero gravitas as a player, thinks he can push a mislynch as the engine that makes it happen. None. That's Star Trek Mirror Universe analysis right there.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Imperium

– Again you were my number 1 Town read going into Night 2 and the kill doesn’t change that. I need you to talk to me and give me your reads on Ocean and Kill. And with some whys would be great. I have some things I think I am seeing but want confirmation from an outside source.

SnarkySnowman was scum in Diffusion of Power. I link to a post which I made as a summary of the game. Read it. I said, very specifically, SnarkySnowman was a scummy scumperson D1. Now, read RC's post.

VOTE: Ranger

Funny thing about this explanation – when you kept harping on how you knew Snarky was scum that couldn’t be explained this is the first game I came across with Snarky as flipped scum. I read his ISO and the conclusion I came to was “Whelp that doesn’t read like Snarky here at all”. Everyone else is free to follow the links and judge for themselves but Snarky’s ISO from that game shows much more verbosity and interaction (starting around ISO 9 is where it diverges visibly to me). In fact Post 396 / ISO 18 is such a radially different post than anything SS provided this game I can’t believe Ranger’s stance. 397 / ISO 19 the same – Snarky actually parses more than one person on his wagon.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I forget everything that's happening in this game. But I'm here. Will think about it, then vote haphazardly.

Lol you were already replaced ....

[MagnaofIllusion]

Thanks for making me look at Snarky's ISO to see if that was true, Magna. I agree that Snarky doesn't have the force of personality to railroad an "easy lynch" on just about anybody. The "case" on Severa is a lot of "can we vote Severa now?" and not much else. I know some people can push magical reads as gospel without being willing to give any reasons (cough RADIANT COWBELLS cough) but if Snarky is trying this, he's failing pretty hard.

But I did find this gem

A - I thought both CoM and Severa were scummy, but definitely not of the same alignment. I thought Severa/RC was way more likely to be scum than CoM. I wasn't wrong to not be on the CoM wagon, which I thought was probably town.

Sweet plea for towncred. Doesn't really match THIS

Intent to vote CoM. I have no idea what the count is right now and don't want to derphammer.

but it's a good try.

VOTE: Snarky

So massive why don't you elaborate on the fact why that set of quotes made you think Snarky was scum. That would be wonderful.

Also reads of at least three scum given you had all overnight to read up is pretty much mandatory at this point. Thanks!

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD I’ll be V/LA from 5pm EDT today until Monday morning EDT for my usual weekend family duties.

At this point Nosferatu is rapidly becoming a viable suspect for me with posts like 1588. He’s cruised through two days basically sidelining it.

Why are Imperium your number one townread? You found it suspicious that I voted Snarky but you didn't find Imperium's vote there suspect at all when a good part of their reasoning amounted to sheeping Radiant?

I also want to hear what things are that you seeing from me and Killthestory.

Is your name Imperium? I didn’t think so. I’m waiting to hear from my Town read. If you don’t like waiting I don’t know what to tell you – maybe work on your patience.

I've no idea what to make of the Lowell/Masquerade slot now.

Why does Lowell’s replacement make you move away from your read on Lowell? I ask because a slot being replaced doesn’t wipe the role PM away. If Lowell was scummy (and you were very convinced he was) the slot should still be scummy in your mind for that prior behavior.

Trying to paint yourself as "right to stay away from the CoM wagon" directly contradicts a stated intent to hammer. Snarky was trying to change the narrative around his lack of participation on the CoM wagon.

Ok with this in mind I’d like your read on Killthestory. He initially help form the wagon and then jumped off to sideline his vote around here and there. He multiple times proclaims Church to be a bad lynch or Town. But he ends up going back to Church with such empty posts as 745.

Let’s move to day 2. Quotes surrounding the Snarky wagon –

I have a 100% read rate on Snarky in all my finished games, and I can safely say he isn't scum here.

snarky is obvtowning this game.

definitely not his scumgame lol

*

jmo16mla[/s] SnarkySnowman - town

no s t o p snarky isnt scum either stop

why are you all so bad this is clear to me now

but I wanna hammer ; ) ) )

VOTE: Snarky

[MagnaofIllusion]

LOL MoI you simply cannot pull votes onto me. stop trying

That's mostly because they think you aren't competent enough to actually be scum.

That Micro game where you flaked as scum really supports that position too ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

UNVOTE: Ranger

VOTE: Kill

At this stage I don’t think Ranger and Kill are scum together. And kill is pretty obv-scum at this stage. He dislikes scum roles. Again for those interested in reading here are some links –

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... start=1175

Read his post-game comments about being “too lazy” to put in the effort to try and get a mislynch on a player who had fake-claimed a guilty on a Town player the day before. In our recently completed Micro game together he was part of a hydra and just flaked out under no pressure at all. He put no effort in working as a teammate in the QT. Scum Kill can't realistically fake scum-hunting.

Now look at his play this game and tell me hes' trying.

Why does Kill shoot RC overnight? Is RC that much harder to mislynch than Severa in that slot?

Absolutely. Kill-scum is scared to death of RC Town. Kill knows that he is never getting RC lynched. His flip-flop on the slot shortly after the ‘RC-is-Severa’ makes absolute sense from scum Kill. RC has a tendancy to OMGUS people who suspect him. Kill moving away rather abruptly from reading Radiant as scum is a pretty expected move if he’s scum.

The 'for now' is key. It hints to how I will reevaluate my read on Virtue in case I'm wrong about Massive. But I happen to know Acryon does not PL as town and here he started out suggesting a PL on kain. And nobody has responded to that yet so I might need to put in more power in my statement.

Links are needed to establish this is meaningful at all.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Tried way too hard to make things seem scummy yesterday.

This post in conjunction with 1701 1708 squarely put Nos as a viable scum suspect for me.

Because 1632 is so far and away from anything closely associated with being analytical.

I said I was reading snarky's games, why didn't you interact with me about that?

Can you point out where you said that? Because I don’t recall it at all.

Also – why didn’t you respond to my question about your Ocean and Kill reads?

Because 1552 is so scummy I can’t imagine it didn’t twig you. Snarky has been lynched but hasn’t even flipped yet. Yet Ocean swoops in and is ready to assess blame related to the Snarky mislynch. But who is the person he most suspects? Me – for properly reading and assessing Snarky as not likely scum. And I was more than clear about my reasoning for Snarky Town – the supposed meta read from Ranger I disagreed with and there was no scum motivation for Snarky to try and push on RC (who I was correctly reading Town) who would probably be one of the hardest mislynches to sell in the game.

Add in his soft defense of Killthestory (who, up until recently, was completely off the Ocean’s radar) and his constant need to push on people’s Townreads (asking again and again for reasoning). I see a recipie for scum who doesn’t want players getting comfortable with each other and spends far too much time worrying about breaking down Town reads (and perhaps Town blocks forming) and too little time actually pushing his scum suspects to be lynched.

[MagnaofIllusion]

his constant need to push on people’s Townreads (asking again and again for reasoning).

I see. So, it doesn't bother you in the slightest that Imperium has dodged providing reasons for townreading you for over three weeks now but instead it bothers you that I'm asking for reasoning. This is why you are mafia.

Tammy and I have plenty of experience with each other on MS. For purposes of this discussion I'm excluding Nacho since he's been more or less MIA from the thread for reasons previously stated. I've seen her scum game up close and personal and likewise she has seen mine. Unlike Ranger who really doesn't know me from Adam.

You can say this is fluff all you want. I have a pretty good read on her play. She's engaged. She's pushing multiple lines of discussion which is pretty damn Pro-Town.

You on the other hand more interested in breaking Town reads than pursuing scum reads. I also note you avoid the entirety of the rest of my post on why you were scummy as hell at the end of Day 2 to focus on this one narrow item. Which is how scum plays - don't focus on the whole of the case but try to nitpick a part and say it invalidates the whole.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You act like mafia never have "townreads" on town players. If you genuinely wanted to push harder against Snarky, you would have spent time arguing against the mislynch, and tried to push people towards Ranger. But besides the one post you made, you never followed up. When Imperium ignored your call, and I switched back to SnarkySnowman, you didn't pursue it. You didn't have the drive and energy to sway the lynch. You were content keeping your vote on a different wagon and just... letting it happen. That's why I suspect you (among other reasons).

This is rich – I’m scum for not pushing hard enough against a Snarky lynch. But you , who self-admittedly jumped back on a wagon being primarily pushed by two of your so-called suspects (Radiant / Ranger), are clearly Town for it.

I've pushed RadiantCowbells's slot too as well as yours (who would arguably be a hard lynch). I've also pushed Ranger and Imperium who would probably be harder lynches than most of the rest of the inactive playerlist. But you have me as a suspect so why is Snarky town for pushing a "hard" mislynch?

See. You haven’t. Not at all. The only two of your suspect that have any modicum of pressure were Ranger (which I’ve pushed much harder than you) and Snarky (a mislynch).

I've explained my Killthestory read which you ignored. He seems engaged on almost a different level than he was in the game you two were a team. I hate that hammer though and I don't like that he hasn't followed up on his suspicion of Lowell's slot. That's just what my read is and if you want to call that "soft-defending," knock yourself out. If I had an abundance of townreads elsewhere, I'd be pushing hard on Killthestory.

One game meta is the reasoning for your read? Lol that’s terrible. I mean – scum looking for any straw to reach for a Town read on a partner terrible. He isn’t engaged in this game AT ALL. Yet you deride my read on Imprium’s engagement as bad. In fact here you list multiple reasons why Kill is scummy but basically hide behind why you aren’t pushing him is that “you don’t have enough Town reads”. You have never addressed the fact that he’s constantly moved away from Scum reads when tactically it benefits scum-Kill (RC read, CoM read). You are absolutely doing everything in your power to not push or scum-read the slot while having multiple stated reasons for doing so.

Do you really think the way for mafia to break up a town block is to demand explanations for townreads? You break up town blocks by nightkilling the universal townreads, not by going after players like Xisiqomelir and RadiantCowbells, the latter who lost all credibility after the SnarkySnowman push. Why do find it unlikely that as town looking in from the outside, I just don't trust either you or Imperium being so tight together? Do you find it unreasonable to demand explanations when they weren't forthcoming?

Funny you mention the kills as not being Universally Town read – which leads to the logical conclusion that they suspected the Mafia. Which is Kill (who is Xis’s only significant suspicion) and yourself (Radiant’s only read besides Snarky was assessing you were likely scum just before Nightfall).

I also find it suspect you are trying to peddle “Radiant had no credibility” when I know for a fact there are several players still in the game who would happily sheep him regardless of the Snarky flip.

I've said all I could say about Ranger so I stopped.

Hello scum motivated line. Because Town don’t stop pushing authentic scum-reads and then “stop” when you have “nothing more to say”.

[MagnaofIllusion]

But you haven't addressed my actual point - you didn't have any determination to prevent the mislynch of Snarky. You were just posing for the cameras. You stated a townread, made a single call to lynch Ranger, and ignored my switchback and Imperium's lack of response which pretty much guaranteed that SnarkySnowman was getting lynched.

Um, whut? I didn’t prevent his mislynch and thus I'm scum? Funny that’s the kind of thinking that comes from scum slots who actually know the alignment of the other players.

I did my best to prevent the mislynch by clearly stating my position and trying to the best of my ability to get my scum suspects (Ranger and Kill) lynched instead. Yet you are straining to suggest somehow I just passively let the lynch go through without speaking out about it.

And you keep dodging the salient point that your suspicion pre-flip doesn’t make any sense form a Town perspective. You are claiming to have Radiant and Ranger scum-reads yesterday. They push through a lynch on Snarky. Yet your reaction when Snarky claims to be Town? You don’t accuse either of your so-called scum reads out for pushing the mislynch. You instead attack someone who didn’t vote for Snarky and repeatedly said they were likely Town. Your progression of reads there isn’t logical. Thus scummy and fabricated.

Snarky being a mislynch doesn't invalidate my point that I was pursuing him. I also kickstarted a wagon on Severa when I had him as a stronger suspect than Snarky. The fact that nobody agrees with me on the MagnaOfIllusion/Imperium suspicion and isn't pressuring them is a fault of my ability to corral a wagon, and of both of your abilities to look superficially town.

Yet your claimed push on Snarky was completely coat-tailed on the pressure from Radiant and Ranger. And since you are acquiescing to not really pushing Ranger as I said that just leaves Severa / Radiant. It is telling that of your claimed suspects two have flipped Town, you are claiming to step-away from one (Ranger, despite leaving the vote on her) so they can “do stuff”, and the remainder are Imperium and myself neither of which you have actually voted for today. And I know for a fact your claimed read on me is incorrect. That leaves Imperium who I Town-read.

Do you think it is out of the question for a Town player to look at that series of claimed scum-reads and find it suspect?

I could see the Xisiqomelir nightkill from you considering you played with him before and therefore, he's the most likely to eventually catch onto you despite townreading you. Letting him die while townreading you is probably a better play than leaving him alive to re-evaluate that read.

I could see the RadiantCowbells kill from both Ranger and Imperium since they seemed to admire Radiant the most. The last thing he said was that I could be mafia which makes it easier to frame me. If I'm not hunting for power roles when I'm mafia, I tend to kill people townreading me so as to not leave any tracks. Killing someone after they called you mafia with their last post is dumb.

Oh it’s a frame job now. Lol.

Also this conflicts with your earlier stance that “Mafia Nightkill those Universally Town-Read” looks like you are pretty blatantly not answering from an honest opinion base but simply looking to make the argument that suits your needs at the moment.

But go ahead and link me to games where you actively have chosen to nightkill people who were Townreading you as opposed to players who were suspecting you. I’m eager to see those games.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Read my wiki. Almost all my kills are mostly based on who I think are power roles but I also consider what their reads on me and my partners are.

Nope. Links. I'm not digging through your personal wiki to find kills that support your claim. It should be trivial for you to do yourself. Why are you stalling on it?

[MagnaofIllusion]

All links are on the wiki. Click "Mafia Private Topic." ISO me. I only have four completed scumgames.

Again - I'm not asking for Private Topics. Link me to games where you can demostrate that your team made Nightkills specifically of players that were Townreading you and your partners. Link with "Hey, we killed Player X" so I can objectively look at the state of the game.

Burden of Proof is on you. Unless, of course, you know it is bullshit.

[MagnaofIllusion]

This is you twisting the meaning of my post. I said your lack of effort in trying is suspect, not that fact that you failed.

"Clearly stating your position" just so it looks good on paper. Imperium tried harder on D1 to save their second scumread than you did D2 to save your townread.

Speaking of completely vague assertions. My effort in suggesting Snarky was a bad lynch and my pushes on Ranger and Kill are pretty clear. But you are just Appealing to Repetition to say they were not. Scummy.

You keep dodging the salient points that Radiant would be a heck of a lot easier to push and discredit than you. As I mentioned, my suspicion of Radiant declined after his emotional collapse where he demanded that his reads be followed because he was awesome. It furthered declined when Snarky flipped town because while there was still a possibility that he bussed, it was unlikely that he burned every ounce of credibility he had to push someone that was lynchbait anyways.

So, no - I didn't suspect Radiant after the flip. Your behavior fell much more in line with scum-motivations.

Again with the dodging. The second half the whole “my Radiant read as scum diminished” isn’t relevant to the discussion because that happened

AFTER

your twilight post not before. So it isn’t germaine that your overnight read on Radiant was better when your posts before the Snarky flip showed a complete disconnect from a logical Town train of thought.

So the bolded is an outright lie – you made your accusation post before the flip not after. So basically you made the post-flip assessment pre-flip. Now remind me again – who is in position to know for certain which way a flip is going to go before the Mod posts it? That’s right – it’s scum.

I did push Ranger D2. I'm just not pushing her now. Why is stepping away from a suspect suspicious? Why is changing reads suspicious? I haven't voted you or Imperium because I'm less certain of my reads on you than Masquerade and Ranger.

Imperium made a huge deal out of a simple question which is why the volume of posts directed at them are so high. You also have been going back and forth with me (Masquerade hasn't responded yet), so the volume of posts is higher. That doesn't mean my level of suspicion is also higher. I also want to be certain about my read on you before pushing you because you've been more engaged than most and on the off-chance I'm wrong, I'd prefer you being alive in later days than inactive players.

So do you suspect Ranger or not? You are trying to parse this as “MoI is calling me scummy for changing my reads” but this doesn’t suggest you changed your read on Ranger at all. You here outright state that you suspect Ranger more than me.

So let me get this straight – did you drop your vote today on Ranger with no intention of actually pushing a case on her and despite the huge back and forth with your claimed scum suspects (Imperium and myself) still find her more suspicion? And then basically OMGUS Masq when he finds your play scummy? Do I have that right?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Sure. Here's a game where my only non-PR kill was Sakura Hana: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=200

Um Sakura basically called you out with the Scumputer right before she died. Despite her earlier "I'm never lynching Ocean" statement I don't see how you think this supports your assertion.

[MagnaofIllusion]

It was a half-hearted effort with no follow up. Why didn't you ask me why I moved my vote back to SnarkySnowman? Why didn't you ask Imperium why they didn't respond to you when they didn't move to Ranger?

Interesting take. Let’s go to the actual sequence of events.

vote count 2.05

Bellaphant (0): none
Severa (1): SnarkySnowman

Jim Heuristically_Alone

Ranger (0): none

jmo16mla

SnarkySnowman (5) [L-2]: Severa, Imperium, Nosferatu, Ranger, Oceanwind
MagnaofIllusion (0): none
Imperium (0): none
Killthestory (2): MagnaofIllusion, Acryon
Lowell (2): Ollie, killthestory
Nosferatu (0): none
acryon (0): none
OceanWind (0): none
Ollie (1): Lowell
not voting: Bellaphant
With 12 players alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
day 2 has begun, it will end in (expired on 2016-05-04 20:01:46)

So here is the game-state one week before deadline – Wednesday April 27th. Snarky has a dominant wagon at L-2.

vote count 2.06

Bellaphant

Virtue (0): none
Severa (1): SnarkySnowman

Jim Heuristically_Alone

Ranger (3): MagnaofIllusion, Oceanwind, Ollie

jmo16mla

SnarkySnowman (3): Severa, Imperium, Nosferatu, Ranger
MagnaofIllusion (0): none
Imperium (0): none
Killthestory (1): Acryon
Lowell (2): Ollie, killthestory
Nosferatu (0): none

acryon

Massive (0): none
OceanWind (0): none
Ollie (1): Lowell
not voting: Virtue
With 12 players alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
day 2 has begun, it will end in (expired on 2016-05-04 20:01:46)

But wait. One Saturday April 30th suddenly my push on Ranger has yielded a viable counter-wagon to Town Snarky’s wagon. And as everyone knows I am V/LA from Friday at 5pm until Monday morning.

Fair enough.

UNVOTE: Ranger
VOTE: SnarkySnowman

Your hop back on the mislynch. Still Saturday the 30th.

I come back on Monday and post 1527 and 1529 trying to get more people to join in on Ranger and again showing that the logic behind the Snarky wagon was faulty.

but I wanna hammer ; ) ) )

VOTE: Snarky

Scum Kill hammers literally 4 hours after 1529.

So your whole premise that I coasted and didn’t do anything to try to prevent the mislynch is scummy as hell given I pushed for a non-Snarky wagon until my V/LA, came back and continued to push Ranger and tell everyone that there was no logical to the Snarky wagon, and had scum Kill hammer right afterwards.

Scummy has hell.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I come back on Monday and post 1527 and 1529 trying to get more people to join in on Ranger and again showing that the logic behind the Snarky wagon was faulty.

Why didn't you ask about my switch when I made it?

Nope. Homie don't play that. Not even on Christmas.

You take that whole post dedicated to laying out in detail exactly the flow of votes and posts in time and distill one single element to attempt to undermine / discredit the entire post?

Scummy as hell.

VOTE: Oceanwind

[MagnaofIllusion]

I continue to be bemused by the inherent irony of player whining about walls in a game based on a written medium.

Nosferatu’s latest bout of “Why is Ocean scum” is interesting given the possible relational links it establishes.

@Titus from your ISO your suspects have been {Nos, kts, lowell, oceanwind}. Assuming you are right about 3 of those reads, could you have 3 scumteams you can imagine in order of confidence?

This is crap busywork. More scum points to Nos.

Will read in a sec, but will quickly point out: this game was the real reason, from the start, I townread MagnaofIllusion this game.

And on the flipside that exact game is why I suspect Ranger to be scum here. Because I see a pretty significant discontinuity from her Town game there and what I am seeing this game.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Oh yeah, when I get bored and ask people to show they're actually trying to figure out the game I'm scum handing out busy work but when I don't do anything I'm scum lurking. You're fucking scum as all hell.

Nope. You don't get to throw up your hands and act outraged when I called that request busy work. Because asking someone to arrange their scum reads in a ranking to teams isn't going to show that they are trying to figure out the game. Asking them to demonstrate why their scum reads are scum would allow them to demonstrate that. Basically you are asking someone to rank possible teams before a single scum player has flipped. Pre-flip full team analysis is pointless and distracting.

But why don't you demonstrate with the analytical process you claimed you use for your scum reads your Top three and why. And no, single sentence fluff answers aren't acceptable. I want to see you are trying to figure out this game.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm not going to waste my time explaining my scum reads to some one who just has a weak-ass case that they need to build. Your scum read on me is a simple sentence read. "Nos has been coasting for the past two days and assigned busy work". Is just about everything you have on me. If I gave my scumreads right now, I'm confident you wouldn't actually analyze them, but just cherry pick and attack my scum reads and claim I'm not reading the game when I am.

Fair enough. Mind you that as far as I can tell you haven't done anything in the way of actually explaining your scum reads in the analytic manner you claimed would be evident. For example - your hop on Snarky was a pure sheep of Radiant. I haven't bothered to pull together a long case on you because, frankly, I've been occupied with Ranger, Ocean and Kill. But at least I've pulled together reasoning on them. When the time comes I'll organize one.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Masq

- Simmer down ... that post was not really directed at you (more-so Ranger ironically). But since forged a mini-wall to explain to me why you dislike wall posts let me ask - who are your scum reads? I keep see you saying you are lost. Can you only engage with a game when people go out of their way to poke and prod you directly?

@Ranger

- I'd like you to explain to me something I just saw in your Diffusion of Power ISO -

(That was five. I somehow thought Killthestory was alive.)

Looks very much like scum Ranger saying "Hey, I thought this player was alive". Which you spent way too much time trying to convince me was a Town tell for you.

So ... what's up?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magna, do you have any townreads?

Yup. Not nearly as many as before as they keep getting killed. Imperium is clearly my top Townread.
Any point to the question?

A discontinuity exists, the question you have to ask is whether the discontinuity is alignment-indicative.

You assume I haven’t already done this. Too late, happened long ago. I came to the conclusion it was more likely alignment indicative than not.

The fact remains that even with my focus on Rach’s slot today over yours that you aren’t doing anything to actually scum-hunt. You pop in, make some defensive comments, and leave. Your only push was Snarky which I’ve already copiously shown why I thought it was a bad push.

I’m not impressed and thus you are in the scum-pool.

[MagnaofIllusion]

At this point...very solid on Masquerade being scum, and on recent content, fairly certain Titus is a partner, too.

Definitely not voting right now, though. I need to both confirm, and find the third.
But my reads right now are:
{Imperium, MagnaofIllusion, Killthestory, Nosferatu}
{massive}
{Ollie, RachMarie}
{Titus}
{Masquerade}

VOTE: Ranger

Nope nope nope nope.

Not saying “I have to be careful and am re-reading because I’m in danger” and then suddenly flop down on the person under the most pressure out of the blue.

Nope.

His defense also is lacking any sort of passion a townie might have. Not, like, anger, but more of a certain desperation. I'm feeling Masq more like an entrapped animal rather than a desperate townie trying to make others see reason.

Yup, you’re still scum.

Imp is correct the nks are bizarre and not at all who I would have thought they would be.

Ok then read Xiqs’ ISO and tell me who should be number 1 with a bullet on your scum reads based on that Nightkill then.

Ok, how the hell am I just casper to everyone?

Um no. I’m mainly focusing on my scum reads and your slot isn’t high on that list currently. Should it be?

I'm trying to see the difference in how you treat your town reads vs. others.

Clearly you should have been able to see that is the case re: Imperium …

[MagnaofIllusion]

I don't get what you're saying with the first half, but the second?

You haven't been reading my iso.

Because if you had, you'd know this suspicion is nothing new.

I think Masquerade is scum. I think Virtue is scum. I'm still going to fact-check this, especially given the need to find a third scum if my thoughts are right.

I was suspicious of Masquerade before there was so much as a single vote on the slot.

See this is exactly why I don't buy your posting at all as Town. Supposedly you were being extra careful. The implication is that there was significant re-reading and re-assessment going on that you just were too lazy to post about. If you want us to believe you are Town there has to be.

Yet your "I'm sure these are scum" post reads on Masq and Titus are by your own admission long-standing scum reads. And the justification you used to vote Masq as a "sure scum read" is essentially "Recent posting". Which shows exactly zero reflection and re-assessment.

I see a conveniently timed vote on a slot under pressure who you have called scum prior to this. And I see zero signs of actual scum-hunting from you.

Here's a question - who haven't you called scum at some point in your ISO other than me / Kill? I think every slot in the game has had a suggestion that they were a scum read of some flavor from you. Frankly the "I had suspicion before" excuse falls flat given the list of those you haven't call scum is very, very short.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Pretty sure I haven't called the massive slot scum. That's a slot I need to confirm is town. I also never called RC scum. So, there's four players. This is also a bad point and you know it. Ask that same question to Imperium. If you asked them who they haven't suspected at all, I don't think they'd be able to produce four names. Reads evolve. I have had my read on Nosferatu, for instance, evolve from a scumread into a townread.

Bullshit. RC is dead. I'm talking about currently living players. The fact that you try to shoe-horn in a dead player into the assessment is bad. Regardless of your alignment. Of course reads evolve. I'm saying yours have not evolved in a way that reads Town to me in the least.

I'll look at your ISO on Massive to see whether that holds water or not.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Mod I am on V/LA til Monday morning.

This is MYLO so pretty damn sure my scum reads on kill and Rach are spot on given this power wagon attempt.

Ollie if you are Town you will unvote. Otherwise I'll assume Imperium was right on you.

NO MORE VOTES!

This is MYLO. I'm the Jailkeeper and can show you the crumb when I am not mobile posting.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I cannot see any world where Ranger quickhammers the day before LyLo because she is getting lynched as town. I understand why you want to slow down this day and get other things done, but it shouldn't end with anything but a lynch on Ranger.

Please explain to me in what universe the following -

Hammering a Town read "just because I was bored and wanted get to scum-hunting the next day" followed up by ZERO scum-hunting the next day

is very Town while

Hammering a Scum read when you are being pressed yourself

is Obv-scum.

I'll be waiting.

You've given KillthVI a pass for being a useless Troll all game long and that time is up. I loved what Tammy was doing with the slot but I'm passed the point where I care about what anyone else thinks.

[MagnaofIllusion]

In fact anyone who wants to take a crack at that explanation for me can do so.

Also, while they are at it, can explain how I shouldn't see obv-scum action in Kill / Rach / Ollie's immediate votes in MYLO. Because to have me consider all of them Town for that I have to think they are all too stupid to even begin to think that today is a day scum only need 2 Town to drop ill-placed votes for a mislynch to fly.

On the other side of the coin I see tons of scum motivation for trying to get a quick lynch in MYLO against a player who had significant suspicion from players like myself and Imperium for several days.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well I'll have you know: the reason I've defended Killthestory is that I've been under the impression he was a PR. So with you claiming jailkeeper, if he's not the roleblocker, then I recant my townread there.

What in the hell are you talking about a Roleblocker for Ranger? This is an open format game and no Roleblocker exists.

Seriously - if you aren't scum this game (and the only reason I am doubting that is two of my other scum reads in Kill and Rach look to be trying to stage a quicklynch in MYLO) your play has been absolutely horrid.

[MagnaofIllusion]

crap MoI could be correct

@ mod could you please update the OP with what the dead players were? its confusing not being able to see at a glance how many are town and so on without having to look at all the flips again.

Just went through the mod's ISO and we have had 5 townie flips and no scum flips uggh

VOTE: No Lynch

Yeah, this is scum. You've pretended to read through the game in your replace in. Not buying this "Oh, I didn't know that we haven't lynched scum and all these Town are dead" routine for a second. The backpedalling when you get called out on your obv-scum play is pretty blatant.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI you're gonna have to argue against these things to convince me that Ranger is not scum, & consider them yourself...

I'm going to have to do exactly jack shit Ollie. In fact you need to be working very hard to convince me I should listen to you at all given you dropped a vote in your first post in MYLO. Because that is either scum play or stupid, stupid Town play. Either way I'm not about to take council from you on smart play at this stage.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I've been on my best behavior all game. I've been summarily ignored. I'm tired of being ignored. I don't think I'm going to be nice anymore ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Ranger

- One last question from me ... do you seriously expect me to believe you are Town when you didn't re-read overnight when you specifically stated you with your hammer on Masq you would be doing just that? A simple yes or no is all I need - no "Busy in other games" song and dance explanation of why is required or wanted.

@Titus

- I saw your original question and follow-ups. I'm not ignoring them I am simply pressed for RL time on the weekends. Monday catchup will cover them.

@Rachmarie

- I want SPECIFIC details on why you read Kill as Town. Post links and detailed reasoning behind why those posts show a Town process.

I am in favor of lynching today for the simple fact that there are upsides to lynching scum that No Lynching just can't match. Especially with an unknown Doctor.

I will not have any more time this weekend.

NO-ONE IS TO CAST ANOTHER VOTE NO MATTER HOW DAMN SURE THEY ARE.

There is plenty I want to see worked out today.

Oh ... and Killthestory is still obviously scum. Anyone who wants to debate that needs to explain, for starters, how he did ZERO scum-hunting Day 3 (except, of course, when he and Titus had their little fun buddying and he pointed out Masq as scum which was of course 100% wrong) after his scum-hammer on a player he was calling Town to "move on to better scum-hunting". Not a single person has EVER addressed this with any degree of anything other than "I think he's Town" and I want answers from ANYONE holding a Killthestory Town read.

[MagnaofIllusion]

What is your own read on Ranger? Easy mislynch or obvscum bus for cred going on here?

Stole another few minutes and wanted to address this -

I'm leaning towards bus for cred going on right now. Ranger and kill both have been calling each other Town for days. And then suddenly today both have backed off their Town read on the other. Ranger's reasoning that Kill was a PR read for her doesn't make sense in context of her earlier statement when I questioned her that kill's posting were showing Town thought processess. Kill's switch is even more obvious - from "LOL RANGER IS GODZ" to "Imma lynch you now". He's absolutely posturing trying to take credit for a possible Ranger lynch when he's fought tooth and nail against it earlier. Neither read development makes much sense outside a nighttime planned bus in the scum QT. I can certainly see Ranger orchestrating it.

Rach's read also makes little sense coming from Town. Her only justification is the hammer with no claim to seeing scummy behavior prior to this. And Ocean's behavior Day 2 around the small Ranger wagon fits with distancing scum. He jumped on when I tried to get a block voting for Ranger as opposed to obv-mislynch Snarky but bailed almost immediately to go for Snarky. And them pre-flip tried to sell me as the most suspect player regarding the outcome of the Snarky wagon.

Ollie's is the least likely scum bussing post but I have some concerns.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Ollie

- if Ranger has been such a strong scum read for you why did you not push them at all Day 3 and participate in the Masq mislynch instead?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Back from V/LA,

I much enjoyed Kill’s flailing at 2055. Oh the realization that the bus plan from the QT at night isn’t working and he’s going right after Ranger is very, very satisfying.

How in the he double hockey stick can you say it benefits town to lynch without a specific cop guilty or some such, Ranger? That is the only time it is better to lynch in MYLO. If we mislynch today town LOSES. I realize you are trying to win for you and your scum budz, but ain't gonna happen chica. NOT on my watch.

This is great posturing and all but you lost all rights to complain about not No Lynching today when you came out firing immediately and necessitated me claiming to halt the speedwagon so discussion could take place today.

Yeah almost exactly TWO HOURS after I put masq at L-1, she runs in and quick hammers. I missed that I put masq at L-1. I did not have time to unvote to prevent a quick hammer. Yep that reeks of scum, especially with the whole oh woe is me I am going to be lynched at L3 when we have someone at L-1 I better rush off and hammer him before anyone unvotes.

This is scummy as hell. “Oh, I wasn’t paying attention and put Town at L-1, oops, blame the person with a scum-read on said player that I put at L-1”.

Why did you vote Masq? I want a detailed explanation.

Still waiting for that detailed Kill read also. Wonder why that hasn’t come? Because this “Oh, he’s hard to read” that suddenly shows up at 1992 and subsequent “I’m trusting Imperium” buddying is indicative of a partner who doesn’t want to awkwardly try to justify said read that she has previously listed as Town solidly until questioned.

Also, who did you jail prior nights? It will help us determine who wasn't sent to do the kill if you're town. (Doc should not answer this question unless we get a CC or doubt).

No point in hiding this as I’ve been pretty heavy-handed in my hints at this – I’ve jailed Imperioum each night. They were my strongest Town read so I didn’t want them Nightkilled and I thought if my read was wrong they’d be a good choice to send a Nightkill being generally Town read. So they are clear of killing all three Nights. What I do tonight will definitely be a mystery given that it’s MYLO today. Maybe I’ll try to stop a kill. Maybe I’ll protect. Who knows …

KTS is a troll (an enjoyable troll, but a troll nonetheless). Ranger is one of the top town players on the site.

1. I don’t care that you like his trolling – why are you giving him a pass for that terrible, terrible hammer and his subsequent play? What is your read on Kill?
2. Do I need to look up Olympus Mafia from way back? I’m fuzzy on the details but think you got mislynched late in that game and part of me wants to look at your play regarding pressure on your slot.

Er I did push & vote for Ranger on day 3. Lowell was someone I wanted lynched from the start of day 2 & his slot was the more viable lynch yesterday. I wasn't bothered which one dropped as long as one of em did.

Seeing this doesn’t make me feel any better about your “Oh Ranger has to go today” stance. Because you were happy yesterday to lynch Town but today you have no other scum reads? At all?

[MagnaofIllusion]

The following players need to actually provide a list of their top three scum suspects and a short reason as to why –

Nosferatu
Titus

This is not optional. This is MYLO and you haven’t given me near enough to feel comfortable sorting you.

@Ranger

– if you are Town your efforts to prove you aren’t scum are fruitless. You are going to be lynched today. So if you are indeed Town your remaining efforts should be aimed at specifically nailing down who is scum. Now if you are scum keep flailing if you want. I don’t care if you clog the thread protesting how Town you are. It isn’t going to change the end result today.

Because I thought Lowell was scum and masq did nothing to change my opinion. You missed the point MoI. Its not about masq being mislynched it is about RANGER being scum.

Nope. You missed the point Rach. My questions are not about Ranger being or not being scum. My questions are 100% about my strong sense you are scum and your inability to quantify any read you have had with more than a few bland words and pointing at Ranger as scum.

For example – you slot has shown minimal inclination to vote Ranger before today. I see 1822 – if you are pointing to that as Ranger suspicion that’s fail on an epic level. I’ve been pushing her since she replaced in. The fact that you suddenly see her as the most scummy thing since sliced bread is suspect.

OW/Rach - OW was town as fuck, pulled no punches on anyone, asked all the right questions. Rach scummed the slot up quite a bit, possible bus on Ranger, at the least that was a bad vote. But that slot still had enough town credit from OW for me to not make her a scum read. Scum lean.

Imperium - No alarm bells from this slot, came across pretty town. Then drops a vote on me which was so half hearted I didn't take it seriously as it had no reasoning & moved 30 minutes later. Then they later implied they were scum reading me. Now I don't remember ever being pushed or properly questioned by these 2. & when I pulled them up on their lack of reasoning it was just ignored. If they think I'm scum, why haven't they made a case against me? Scum lean/almost read.

Killthestory - seems to have changed from Ranger being a 'prophet' to voting for her just for a hammer, but I doubt that will ever be explained. His posting is too sparse & lacking in content to get a real handle. If I was gonna vote for him it would probably be out of frustration than anything solid but has been more scummy lately. But he felt town early on. So I don't know about him.

Nos - It was like trying to get blood out of a stone trying to get his opinions on day 1 but towards the end of it I did & he was making town posts. But since then he's doing just enough to get by & popping in intermittently, bit of a passenger in the game so far. Undecided on him.

Titus - Said alot of questionable shit since I pressured her, but alot of it reminds me of Lowell who inexplicably ended up being town... Attack is the best form of defence etc. Undecided on her, but her replies to my current questions should be revealing.

Dislike. First that you strongest scum read is on Imperium for suspecting you. Protip – your play is definitely worthy of being suspected. Second that the rest of your analysis on everyone else more or less says “Meh, could be scum, could be Town”.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI shut up

Go sit in your time-out chair child the adults are talking.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Not for suspecting me, come on now MoI, your reading comprehension needs improvement man. As I said I'm still sorting & I didn't expect you to like what I said considering you have a town read on Imperium. If Ranger flips scum I'll be able to get a much better handle on her partners anyway. I don't make links before a scum flip. If she's town then I've had it with this game

The time where you can get away with "Pre Flip associations" is long gone. This is Day 4. A mislynch (which I admit is not a strong possibility but hell we've got people who for some unknown reason Town-read Kill so Ranger being Town wouldn't be the oddest thing this game) and a failed block and the game is over. Additionally on the off chance you were to die overnight it is a disservice to Town for you to have not provided reads they can consider after the fact.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I repeat it was 2 hours.. How is that 5 days MoI?

Why am I being addressed in this? I've very curious given you apparently didn't read my last post.

[MagnaofIllusion]

The body of this post writes itself. These are the only words I am going to type of my own. The rest is going to highlight why Kill is such an obvious it’s not even funny …

thats weird.

titus was buddying up to ranger until he started getting attacked. going for easy towncred for later?

i think it's safe to say Titus has a large chance of being ranger's bud

…

i will sheep my hero ranger

UNVOTE:

LOL MOI IS SCUMREADING RANGER AFTER ME

RANGER IS LITERALLY OBVTOWN WTF

WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS TO RANGE RSTOP

so ranger you think imperium and MoI are town? im cool with that.

can we like, lynch the Lowell slot or whoevers in it? it's clearly scum lmfao

kek titus i think im gonna lynch you too for hurting my god rangers feelings

VOTE: Ranger

you led me astray, a false prophet

you seemed to jump on that wagon hard for mediocre reasoning

…

kek

VOTE: Masquerade

Because I'm B O R E D

everyone she scumreads flips town, everyone she defends has a likelihood of being scum.

…

VOTE: ChurchofMercy
Is it working?

Because I'm 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt certain that Snarky is scum and the same is not true of CoM.
Why weren't you this energetic in 1672 huh?

Ehh, I could be persuaded.

lol scum

VOTE: lowell

but I wanna hammer ; ) ) )

VOTE: Snarky

IVE BECOME IMPORTANT.

Masq is scum mainly because of his predecessor, and he hasn't necessarily helped himself. When it came to Lowell, Lowell posted little. When he did post, it felt off. In the last game I played with Lowell, the guy didn't seem to like me. He got me lynched because he didn't like my playstyle and thought it was scummy.

Then you have this game where in the early game Lowell was buddying the fuck outta me. He said he was gonna sheep me to victory or some shit and that I was town. That's a major jump from one game to another. It felt insincere, and his pushes lacked any sort of genuine scumhunting. It was just scummy as fuck.

Then you have Masq who's pushing good cases, but I disagree. Any case can be made to look good in the eyes of others, but it isn't necessarily true. Any mafia player knows this to be true since some players convince themselves that another town is scum when they're town. So while Masq's pushes might have looked good, I disagree with them because I'm currently townreading a couple of the people he's pushing. His defense also is lacking any sort of passion a townie might have. Not, like, anger, but more of a certain desperation. I'm feeling Masq more like an entrapped animal rather than a desperate townie trying to make others see reason.

[MagnaofIllusion]

But MoI you say ... that's not fair ... those quotes aren't in context ..

Which is exactly the same thing Kill just did. And that's why he is scum. He can't honestly scum hunt and has to grasp from whatever straws he can to pretend to be looking for his partners.

[MagnaofIllusion]

titus and ranger

well thats definitely a hard one since gut tells me titus is town, but ranger is def scum so hes gotta be todays lynch

titus is very hard to read for me honestly.

For like the 50th time scum distancing themselves from their own reads.

Obv obv obv

massive and xisi kills don't make sense smh

VCA is unreliable without a scumflip

NKA doesn't yield anything since I can't make sense of two of them

Everyone is hard to read

this game is fucking with me

So you just can’t even make reads on Day 4 after all that has gone on? Are you really this bad at being Town or are you scum who has slid under the radar all game?

[MagnaofIllusion]

>ignores series of posts on why I'm not confident in my reads at this point
>proceeds to cherry pick a post and accuse me of being scum based on it
return to sender fam how fucking bad are you?

Nope nope nope. Sorry, do not pass go do not collect $200.

You haven't had a read that you've pushed as scum all game. For three days you've slid by under the radar without doing so. And you are trying to do so again today.

I don't give a fuck about your AtE posts about "This game is HARD". Either you are too incompetent to actually make a scum read BY DAY 4 or you are scum and are working your angle to a tee. There's enough other scummy players in the game I can't tell which for certain

But the speed at which you replied to this with some pointless "You can't read you suck" reads to me that you are more likely to be the later who is monitoring the thread but specifically not contributing.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I fucking scumread everyone except for you and Imperium

at this point I'm just trying to figure out which 2 I'm scum reading incorrectly.

By no lynching today, I'm hoping that by one of you fuckers dying, my job will be that much easier

. By no means do I not have a scum read and if you think I've skirted past the entire game without having any opinions you are dead fucking wrong.

The bolded makes exactly zero sense - you think one of your many scum reads would die over the players you are Town reading?

Point to me where you've made a scum read and pushed it this game. I'd love to see that post from your perspective.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Frankly I’m only holding off voting for Ranger at this stage til we get the Imperium situation settled. Most everyone is clearly not putting in any effort and Ranger’s flip for better or worse is about the only thing that is going to propel the game forward.

Something I've done is iso the dead and see if anything sticks out as an obvious "oh, they died for this", but I've yet to find anything for any of them.

You clearly aren’t. Probably about time for you to make one of your patented “Goodbye messages to your partners” I’ve seen before.

Why hasn't anyone commented on this? I'm sure a night phase isn't needed to re-read.

What do you think there is to comment on? You yourself are saying you can’t untangle the knots in thread and want to No Lynch to see what shakes out. Titus is effectively saying the same thing except for lynching Ranger instead of No Lynching.

If you or imperium dies, well I'm in the same position as before, but as you can see I include the keyword hope*.

*hope(verb): to desire with expectation of obtainment; to wish for a particular event that one considers possible; Archaic to have confidence or trust.

I pushed SS. I asked him questions about his reads and with that I decided he was scum, and so I kept my vote on him.

I think there is an old expression about filling hands with hope and crap that applies.

Oh … you are wanting to take credit for your push on an Town player that I called Town all day and want me to see that as solid scum-hunting from you. In fact …

i.e. "Ollie, Imperium, Ocean let's derail the wagon on the one person who is beyond a shadow of a doubt not town focused and whose only defense by others is that he's probably just a VI"

sounds dumb when you put it that way huh

ocean fam why is Ranger scummier than SS. Unless I just don't remember you saying something of that nature, and if so pls link.

That reminds me where you called out players for trying to get a wagon going on Ranger and pushed Snarky as obv-scum.

So does this now sound really dumb or scummy as hell? Need to decide.

[MagnaofIllusion]

2. SS was scummy as shit and no one can convince me that he was anything but. His reads were a mess, he tunnelled a slot, contributed absolutely nothing, jumped from his apparant major scum read to the max wagon CoM (whom on the subject of townreads on dead players I town read), and in the face of his own lynch just screamed "RC is scum". The only reason people were townreading him was because of his reputation of being a VI. I did not view his actions as VI behaviour.

4. If we're counting advertising SS's lynch as scummy/dumb, kill is obv town for adamantly defending SS more than probably anyone else.

I'm calling bullshit on both of these points. I spent many a post explaining why Snarky's play didn't come from a scum point of view. Especially given the tenactity he clung to his Radiant scum read. You can ignore that to keep telling yourself you had a good read on the slot. You didn't. And the fact he is such low hanging fruit and he is the case you provided as your evidence of scum-hunting weighs heavily on my read on your slot.

Also - obv Town don't hammer players they say are Town because they are bored. VIs do that.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I’ll be V/LA starting today at 5pm EDT til Tuesday morning for weekend family obligations.

Well hopefully by the time I get back Imperium will be replaced and the replacement has some thoughts. I’ll be voting Ranger in my first post back regardless.

Up until yesterday, she was town. Now, she's a coin toss. One with a scummy weighted side.

If for some ungodly reason Ranger doesn’t flip scum this one is number 1 with a bullet.

Sorry that I don't see screaming "x is scum" over and over with no reasoning whatsoever is indicative of being a "weak player". Your "townread" (mind you, you yourself explicitly stated that you did not town read Snarky, you just didn't see as scum) on Snarky was based on him decided on him "zeroing in on Severa" upon replacing in and "continuing to do so after the Radiant replace in".

SS scumread RC because of "de-railing kts", only gave opinions on one slot (CoM), tone, and motivation that is never explained.

I asked SS how RC derailed kill. He said he would provide some quotes and never did.

Snarky almost exclusively talked about RC and my criticism of his logic on the matter was deflected.

tone pretty much can't be analyzed, especially without any examples, and motivation was once again never explained.

I looked that ISO up and down and didn't see a speck of town, and apparently you didn't either, I just made the logical goddamn decision and sorted him as scum, while you called him literally "not a scum-read". You didn't see him realistically doing what he did as scum, but at the same time he was a weak player. Why he was exclusively weak as town and not scum is a mystery to me. Your snarky "read" (if you even want to call it that) was total shit, so if you want to delude yourself that you correctly read him while shitting on everyone who scum read him, I'm here to tell you your read was just as fucking garbage as everyone else's.

Such a scum post. Clear frustration at being called out for your bad play surrounding Snarky. Trying to justify it and calling my correct read garbage is pure scum who doesn’t like being put under the spotlight.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Your read on snarky. This is not selective quoting, snipping out random key words bullshit, this is you, honest to Jesus suffering Christ hedging on snarky. You explicitly said it wasn't a Townread I am literally just relaying your posts back to you. If you think this is me reducing your post quality through disingenuous means, it's not. I think your read on my is half conf bias and half hypocrisy. I saw no town motivation in his posts. Neither did you. You say this here. Why is it that me scum reading him because of it is bad play compared to you LITERALLY HEDGING?? Like your stances do not pass muster when closely examined.

This is some excellect splitting hairs. But you ignoring the very line that highlights why it isn’t hedging –

“It is a lack of Scum-read. Which is essentially the same but different.”

I have a Town read on Imperium for their play. I didn’t have a Town read on either Radiant or Snarky because their player was lacking. But I definitely didn’t have a scum read. In fact I specifically said I didn’t have see any scum motivations in their play. That means they are a bad lynch regardless of they were playing like crap.

You seem to be of the mindset that unless someone has a Town read on a player they must be scum. That’s crap and you know it. Meanwhile you keep harping again and again on the fact that you couldn’t see Town play in Snarky’s posting.

You know what that means? You need to vastly improve your skills on reading players who are substandard. There are lots of them on Mafiascum. Or, you know, you are scum.

I'm scum for trying to convince you that I was actually scum hunting and evaluated SS as scum. Why? Snarky flipped town. Yet no one on this town has found scum and lynched it. So what the hell do you want?

You're also misrepresenting YOUR SELF. You did NOT call snarky town all day. You did NOT spent multiple posts detailing why he didn't have scum motivation. You made one post saying his pushes didn't make sense from a scum perspective, despite the fact that there is virtually no reason why he can't be bad scum and be bad town.

I can't argue against idiocy but I can damn well try lol

Nope. Not even close. You are scum because you ‘grand scum push’ this game was a substandard player who I was able to read as Town (more more precisely since you are playing the semantics game Not-Scum). Yeah no-one has gotten flipped scum so far. That doesn’t mean you can’t be judged for your lack of pushing on anyone with a likelihood of actually flipping scum. And the fact that when I asked who you scum-hunted this game the name that you came up was Snarky who was the absolute weakest link in the chain by any objective standards says something to me about your potential alignment.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Wow you're bad. Do whatever the fuck you want, the only thing that's gonna teach you is failure.

VOTE: Ranger
I'll sheep you since you're god or whatever.

When your only response is to throw rhetoric ... I don't know what to tell you ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Back from V/LA,

@Titus

– why are you doing nothing this game and why shouldn’t Burden of Proficiency be aimed right at you and Ranger if you think it is a valid tell?

Team is Kill + Titus + [rach, ollie]

Or Ranger is scum.

With this outline pretty sure I'm cool no lynching.
VOTE: No Lynch

Nope. We aren’t just going to No Lynch when the pretty much all reason says any Nightkill that goes through isn’t going to resolve the “Is Ranger Scum” question leaving us in LYLO lynching her instead of MYLO. At least lynching her today gives a chance to block the kill if she isn’t scum. Tomorrow that chance immediately ends the game if we are in LYLO.

The point that Rach (and everyone else) is making that you were hammering when your life was in danger and that's scummy.

Stop saying this. Self-preservation is in and of itself Null. No player who is playing to their wincon should not hammer an alternate wagon they claim to be scum-reading if they think the alternative is their own lynch. That is the worst possible reason to scum read Ranger as there are literal tons of other reasons to do so this game.

My problem with the KTS case is less that I think that his actions make sense from a normal town perspective and more that I'm not currently willing to put my weight behind the scum case on him. I don't think that hammer on CoM to move onto better scumhunting was scummy; I didn't think that KTS as scum needed to hammer that wagon in order to get CoM lynched, and I'm not sure that he would hammer someone that he publicly thought he was town in order to get a lynch that was guaranteed anyways instead of just shutting his mouth and accepting the free town cred.

I assume in the above you mean the hammer of Snarky not CoM since CoM self-hammered. Frankly the whole “why would he do it as scum” argument leaves me cold when there is also no logical “why would he do it as Town” that isn’t answered anyway other than just bad play. Bad play isn’t alignment indicative. That and the fact that he did no scum-hunting after the fact just derped along until it was time to jump on the Masq mislynch with terrible reasoning.

I'd be happier if you didn't do this; I'm currently townreading both Nosferatu and RachMarie (who are in your top 2), and Ranger's responses to me haven't been at all what I expected if she was scum (granted, I'm not exactly confident that she is town but with the way this game is going I think we'd be dumb not to pretty heavily consider the possibility), and I'd like a little bit more time in order to talk this out with you.

Um were you not the person who started the day telling me that a Ranger lynch was the only logicial way today plays out when I started calling out the obv-scum quickwagon? I’m not exactly sure why you are flip-flopping around on this so much.

Could you explain your Ollie read in more detail?
I thought that his Day 1 looked decent, but I haven't seen anything worth a townread since then.

It mostly revolved around the way they all have handled Ranger all game.

We’ve been over why kill’s sudden flip is scummy.
Rach’s slot has done little to suspect Ranger. I briefly got Ocean onto a Ranger counter-wagon to Snarky Day 2 but he jumped off for incredibly stupid reasons and they pre-flip tried to pin me as the most obvious scum based on how the mislynch went. Either Ocean is terrible and very mistaken about his level of competence or that’s pure scum 101 play. And Rach to my memory said little about Ranger. A quick ISO of her shows the following gem - 1925. Before today’s start it was her only mention of Ranger.

Ollie’s read was most strongly based on the fact that he stayed with the Ranger wagon Day 2.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Ranger

L-2

Sorry, I'm not going to lose the game letting a player who has been pretty scummy for 3 days off the hook when she's been near the top of my scum pile for those 3 days.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I don't think that Ranger is in any danger of being let off the hook, Magna.

Ok .. I think that's reasonable.

UNVOTE: Ranger

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Imperium

-

Ocean / RachMarie ISO review –

Ocean’s early focus was on Lowell / Xisi’s slot / Nosferatu.

In re-reading 201 I’m still very much disliking his reaction to being called out for missing me on his reads list and his subsequent “It makes no sense for you to suspect me for Town-reading you”. There is no way he should have missed me as a read when his early attack on Lowell’s slot was based solely on Lowell reading me as Town. And he questioned me about my thoughts on Lowell’s read on me and why I didn’t follow-up with a question to Lowell.

Re-read the tone shift surround Acryon and me starting at 267 after I express suspicion of him. He goes from pushing on Acryon to being suddenly less suspicious of Acryon based on my and Acryon’s interactions.

403begins Ocean’s questioning on the Ranger slot (Jim at the time). Note that his first established read on Jim despite Jim’s mixing of myself and Lowell and other items was slight Town (411). He even defends Ranger’s slot at 469 regarding my pressure on Jim for mixing myself and Lowell in his reads list.

At 594 he is back to softly suspecting Jim based on inconsistencies (one of which he defended Jim on) and Jim flaking. I can easily see this as distancing given he previously light Town read Jim’s slot and the only thing that changed is that Jim was not posting.

743 is interesting – he specifically singles out the Ranger slot as wanting content from. Wanting a partner to pull their weight?

He puts Jim as the last in his scum reads (Town!Snarky, Titus slot, Town!Com and lastly Jim) at 819.

Ocean’s late Day 1 “Everyone don’t lynch CoM we need more input” reads as LAMIST style posting on a player they know isn’t flipping scum.

If you flip town, I'd go after SnarkySnowman and Bellaphant. Both of them are scumreads. Bellaphant has been pretty comfortable with her vote on you and Snarky's play around your wagon suggests ulterior motives to me. My third scumread would probably be Jim. I'd also need to review Lowell, MagnaOfIllusion and Ollie to make sure I'm not missing anything there.

Once again Jim is tucked away at the end of Ocean’s official scum reads list.

Read 987 in context of the above quote – Severa was nowhere near to be seen on the “CoM flips Town” reads yet he’s the Day 2 focus with the Ranger slot once again positioned just outside his direct focus.

Ranger by this point has replaced in and despite him being a so called strong scum-read he does little in probing Ranger. In fact 1175 is all to be seen in that range and there is no evidence he followed up on it. And this is followed up by a shallow Ranger-meta read at 1269.

At 1278 he begins a long string of questioning Ranger. Read that for yourself and decide if that is actual scum-hunting or just a floor show. I’m leaning the latter.

Here’s why I think it is a floor show – at 1356 he hops onto a Ranger wagon I am pushing for. Then at 1478 Ocean hops right back to Snarky with no interactions with Ranger in-between. And follows up with the pre-flip 1552 which I’ve said makes absolutely no sense from someone who supposedly was scum-reading Ranger and just saw Ranger help strongarm a wagon onto Snarky.

Ocean’s early Day 3 vote on Ranger looks like a weak bus to me given he spends the majority of the day arguing with Imperium and myself on why we are Town-reading each other. Read it for yourself.

But do read his jump onto Masq at 1748 and look at the context of why he jumps on that wagon.

Rach replaces in at 1822. She slots Ranger as ‘needing to review’. Said review never happens Day 3. And as noted earlier we have 1925 which I feel is trying to peel Imperium off the Ranger is scum wagon.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Imperium

-

Ollie ISO review –

Most of his early play revolved around a back and forth with Nosferatu and Oceanwind.
Not seeing a bunch I object to in his Day 1 play to 174. And I like that his read list there only omitted Seshat and KainTepes who has zero posts. Feels much more genuine to me than Ocean’s which missed me.

My only problem with the ISO by the time HA replaces in is that he didn’t even look at Jim’s posting until after the fact (1010). In fact this post to Ranger (1282) gives me some unease. If Jim was “scummy as fuck” why was there no ISO mention of it until after he replaced?

In this review I do see that Ollie was working on Lowell consistently Day 1 and 2 so I feel somewhat better about his Day 3 vote than I do Ocean’s.

Like and agree with assessment of Ranger’s “Oh, Xis is dead” post at 1320. For the record in another game that has recently finished Ranger completely undercuts his “If I was scum I would have looked at the QT to get information” argument as scum –

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=66444

I knew karnos could do it. <3

I also knew I was gonna be nightkilled.

The most humorous part is...I actually did, at first, accidentally have a real scumread on karnos. I thought my scumbuddy was BTD6, thus why karnos changed between my first readslist and my second, as I checked the chat and was like, "...oops. This is awkward."

Also like Ollie’s take at 1322 about Ranger’s buddying to RC.

Another point in Ollie’s favor in a Town versus scum read for me is that he went to the Ranger wagon I started Day 2 and stuck with it. And he has what I see as pretty solid interaction with Ranger around that point )1450 as an example).

Starts Day 3 continuing that Ranger vote.

That brings us to today.

Frankly I don’t see Ollie as a good fit for Ranger partner. He’s actually engaged on scum-hunting Ranger and the point he makes about Ranger’s flip-flop Day 2 to Day 3 on Ollie is pretty spot on.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Eh ... perhaps I'm confirmed biased on Ocean but his end of Day 2 pre-flip post I am having huge trouble getting past as anything that comes from a realistic semblence of Town mindset.

And I'm not sold that it has to be either Rach or Ollie in the third slot. Titus's play is so disconnected that I could see diving that slot again. And I've already staked out my thoughts on Nos.

[MagnaofIllusion]

UNVOTE:

Why did you vote Ranger while still having questions you wanted to resolve?

VC 4.06

day 4 has begun, it will end in (expired on 2016-06-04 18:00:00)

VOTE: Ranger

If the thread is still open in the morning I will have more to say before I go on my V/LA.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I’ll be V/LA starting today at 5pm EDT until June 11th. I’ll be out of the country with limited access … how often I can check will be determined when I get there.

Frankly the whole conversation about kills and not taking shots is stupid. Town has two ways to possible prevent deaths in this set-up. Strong players who are Town-read are more likely to draw protection which scum can’t overcome. So scum are more likely to kill players they don’t think are protected who read them in a negative dayplay fashion while PR hunting. This whole “Face discussion” is at best distracting.

I started off the day being as abrasive as possible in an effort to make who I might be scum-reading as cloudy as possible. But today has run so long that its’ been hard to keep up the posturing.

Ranger will flip. Once that happens I’ll make my assessment as to whether I want to protect a Town read of try to block a scum read. I’m unsure was to which way I will go at this stage.

But if as expected Ranger flips scum and for some stupid reason die at Night I want Kill’s body hanging from the rafters tomorrow. Ignoring this will cause my ghost to forever haunt you …

*waves* Anyone help me?

How can we help you? I’m 100% serious. Frankly this day should have ended a week ago instead of being drug out. To my mind Imperium and I haven’t really resolved the differences between our Rach and Ollie reads. No-one is really making an progress at Town-reading other players.

Ranger is going to get rope. We will see how the flip and Night affects players and their parsing of the game.

Because he flipped so hard on someone he was pretty strongly scumreading or because he bought Snarky claiming town in twilight so quickly?
If it's the second reason, I think that people are more gullible than you think - I tend to claim town in twilight as scum mainly because people's scramble to reassess reads with me!town are usually entertaining to see, especially if they've been pushing me pretty hard previously. If it's the first part, then I don't think his Snarky read was that strong; his read showed signs of breaking earlier and there were a good number of posts like this:

Setting aside that “he did it pre-flip” element – the fact that his immediate conclusion makes absolutely no sense from a Town perspective given his stated reads prior to the lynch. Ocean was supposedly scum-reading Ranger who was a heavy participant in the push on Snarky. Snarky eventually gets lynched. Town who are honestly stating their positions in the game reacting to that claimed flip should be looking to assess who pushed the mislynch wagon and why. But he doesn’t do that at all. He immediately decides that the most likely scum player based on the flip is one of the few people who fought against it and pushed for an alternate wagon. On Ranger. Who Ocean supposedly had a scum read on.

That move has not trajectory that makes any sense.

that made it seem like he was feeling pretty lost in the game in general, so his willingness to believe that he mislynched again doesn't actually seem all that outlandish to me.

Meh. I see this as more AtE bullshit looking for an excuse to move away from previously stated reads (“I don’t trust anyone at this point”) and be able to craft scum reads that are favorable to more mislynches.

His piece on Snarky is garbage; I don't like that the "I was okay with Snarky because he was townreading me! Oops!" bit came up again, and the case Ollie posts on him is no more complicated than "I think Snarky could have posted more content".

Every single person in this game’s case on Snarky was garbage. Using that to indict Ollie while not indicting everyone else reads as some Confirm-bias becauseOllie is not Town reading you if you want my frank opinion.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Phone post with very poor connection. I jailed Kill last night and when I get back I will explain in full why he is the lynch today. So please hold off on lynching til I return but feel free to scum hunt away.

[MagnaofIllusion]

no they wouldn't what the fuck?

are you stupid? No offense, but a 1v1 tradeoff is beneficial in any situation. If the real doctor were to counterclaim me now, then it'd be a worthwhile sacrifice seeing as it's still a 1v1 tradeoff, putting us in an even better situation with confirmed scum.

Lol kill just said 'if the real doctor were to counterclaim'.

Can't even remember he is supposed to be the real doctor.

[MagnaofIllusion]

If he was the Doctor kill would be claiming his protects ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: kill

[MagnaofIllusion]

Real doctor should claim. Netting us a kill-scum lynch puts all sorts of Wifom in the last scum's lap as to who to try to kill. Will explain when I have a keyboard.

[MagnaofIllusion]

k heres the problem:

i dont have my night action PMs in my sent messages box, and I don't remember who I picked. the only ones I remember was Night 3 was imperium, and then I forgot to protect someone last night. i'm gonna PM Kelbris to see if he could send me my night action, but idk

Lol scum-claim.

[MagnaofIllusion]

shut the fuck up you suck at this game i dont even want to hear it.

like it's literally obvious im the doctor, even ranger saw it. no ones even going to try and counterclaim me

If Ranger thought you were the Doc you would have been shot over players like Massive.

But continue to flail.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok if the Doctor is avoiding counterclaiming because Titus is saying not to - DON'T!

It isn't productive. I can't lynch kill if he is uncountered no matter how much of a VI he is.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Finally made it back in the country. Have been traveling for 36 hours with little sleep. Going to bed now. Will have content tonight or Monday.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok, back in the saddle …

UNVOTE: Kill

Ollie is scum

There is some debate over who is his scum buddy, but we have all decided Ollie is scum.

Good for you. I’m not joining that wagon. Sorry, I’m not convinced. At least not at this stage.

I ran the lynch results through the MoIputer and have decided that my vote is going on either Titus or Nos. Both have very similar MoIputer profiles.

Personally I’m leaning Titus. Her play here is what I would expect from scum with Ranger … she’s keeping out of the spotlight as much as possible. She isn’t pushing scum with any significant strength. No sign of her fabled Vote Analysis today despite the fact that she’s had plenty of time to do it and is posting elsewhere.

That slot does very, very little in relation to the Ranger slot. Nothing at all out of Bella. Not a single mention. First mention I see is 1414 where Virtue agrees that KainTepes replaces out a scum and Church might have been lynched for it. And then that little nugget gets left in the dust never to be revisited.

At 1491 Virtue lobs a few softball questions at Ranger. Does a poking about Imperium being off Ranger’s reads list.

Calls Ranger Town at 1580. And at 1601 says Ranger isn’t scum due to the “game-state” which makes little sense. Some more comments here and there about Ranger being Town. Her back and forth with Ranger regarding "Why aren't you asking me questions" reads to me as scum worried their experienced partner isn't doing enough to establish interactions that look like scum-hunting.

The first time Titus considers Ranger scum is Day 4 when it was a forgone conclusion and as previously established very likely a coordinated Night plan by scum.

Her reasoning on Masq (rolefishing) is also pretty obviously bad to anyone with experience which Titus definitely has.

VOTE: Titus

[MagnaofIllusion]

But, I did want to point one thing out in case people didn't notice it. Ocean Wind was recently banned as he was found to be the alt of F-16 Fighting Falcon, who was the player that I was thinking he might be who was banned for harassment.

Yeah I forgot to post a belated congratulations to you on that read.

I don't know what happened with F16 after I left but I do know I snowed him pretty badly in one of his early games here. Not sure if that played into his game-play or not.

[MagnaofIllusion]

The slot is still scum

Please lynch.

You know … you’ve done exactly jack to show why you think Ollie is scum. Even Kill actually tried to cobble together some posts that sort of looks like it might resemble a case.

Why is that again?

@MoI: How does the MoIputer work?

I’m not going to go into great depth because I don’t care to but the gist of it is this –

I take each end of day vote count. I apply Town and Scum designations to all dead players, any confirmed via known set-up players, and myself. I then set criteria each day based on my assessment of the game state and get a numerical figure for each living player. I sum those figures and the higher the figure the more likely the player is scum on this basis.

It’s not the end-all-be-all but over the years I have found it does of good job of centering my focus. Works best with at least 3 days of gameplay and 1 flipped scum. I don’t use it when only 1 scum remaining is expected.

Most recent game where I used it is here - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=66137

After Day 3 in my Neighborhood I came to the following conclusion –

Interestingly enough running MoIputer with Shea as Town gives the following suspicion groups

<

Lowell

>

Empty Space

<

Aristoph

>
<

Untrod

>
<

KMD, Creature, Snarky

>

Literally Lowell is almost an order of magnitude worse than Arist in the revised MoiPuter.

I’ve highlighted the alignments of the living players. I went on to push Lowell after reviewing his ISO carefully.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Nosfertu

– why did you ask me about the MoIputer?

I don't disagree with you on Titus-scum, but I am not really willing to switch from a stronger scumread with more support to a weaker scumread with less support unless you have a decent case for Ollie!town that's more complicated than "I might be biased because I'm OMGUSing". I don't disagree that there was bias strewn all in my read of him at times (particularly when we were in the middle of our wall battle), but my feelings haven't changed at all despite being decently removed from the situation. Did you ever get the chance to think about the scumtell that I posted right before night?

If feel we are on opposite ends of the same boat. I’m not convinced of your Rach-Town case and you keep pointing to a single element of my Ollie read-through which I agree with is scummy but doesn’t overwhelm the rest of my analysis of his Ranger interactions.

Ollie even as scum can be lynched without me or being bussed so I’m not inclined to vote there right now even with the mislynch cushion last night gave us.

In a nutshell MoI

Based on associations with Ranger. Ollie always was her top town read with no real REASONS for it. Clearly she was trying to avoid busing Ollie for some reason.

And your slot is exactly in the same position. Frankly the two slots I feel have the worst feeling about re:Ranger’s reads are your slot and Titus.

She gives elaboration on Nosferatu and Ollie’s position in the readslists. Now the reasons may be crappy but there is something to chew on in thread. 1156 and 1406 are examples for Nos. Likewise 1308 is an example for Ollie.

But looking at your slot and Titus – never a mention as to why Ocean was such a strong Townread or why Titus’s slot was such a scum-read to null read. Not an ounce. In fact we have posts like the start of 1950 where you notice he addresses how his Town read on Kill is changing but dodges even mentioning your slot.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magna: If Titus is scum and Ollie is town, I see no reason why she hasn't hammered him yet;

scum lose if we lynch scum today

and there's a very real chance of the wagon swinging back into her; why would she hesitate in hammering after your vote on her, especially when she was calling Ollie obvscum yesterday and thus could probably get away with it without scumclaiming?

First I would like you to explain the bolded in very clear detail.

Second I agree - Titus scum and Ollie Town probably plays out like you said. What about Ollie Town with Titus Town? Because that is a possible (unlikely I think but possible) scenario that could be at play here.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I just think that you're assigning Ollie far too many town points for a push on a partner that wasn't in the greatest of positions in the first place. Ollie didn't push Ranger when it mattered and the only other thing that he did that you thought you looked town for doing was mentioning everyone in his earliest readslist.

When did the push on Ranger matter in your view then?

[MagnaofIllusion]

So I’ve been holding off on Ollie for three reasons.

1. To see if either Nos or Titus would hammer with me stating I wasn’t going to. Neither did so far but Nos has been the more likely of the two.
2. To see if Titus would do anything with VCA. I don't see that forthcoming given her health situation.
3. To actively see Imperium would advocate that neither Nos or Titus are scum if Ollie flips Town.

The last part is the main reason. I’ve had some paranoia today regarding a possible scum Team of Imperium and Rach. It would explain the hard defense Imperium has been throwing up on the Rach slot since yesterday. And as Imperium has already stipulated to – if the scum team is Nos / Titus given my push on Titus it makes sense that one of them would already have hammered Ollie.

So the only way I can see Ollie flipping Town is if both scum are already on the wagon – which has to be Imperium / Rach given that kill is now Doctor confirmed.

VOTE: Ollie

If Ollie flips scum I can easily put that paranoia to rest. If he flips Town on the other hand I want Imperium’s head on a platter tomorrow if I don’t survive the Night.

[MagnaofIllusion]

/surrender

There's about a zero percent chance of winning here. I needed Ollie to CC and that's when he had IRL.

There's little point in drawing this out wit Ollie hammered.

Well given a scum Ollie flip meant you were getting Jailed I can understand this post.

Now we just wait for the Mod I guess ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Kill was never getting flipped without a counter-claim. No matter how suspect his play was.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I sent him a PM which he has yet to pick up ... if he doesn't get it by the time Monday rolls around I'll PM the listmod.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Thanks for running the game Kelbris. Things I think overall went pretty smoothly. I know you had a few minor hiccups on the early vote-counts but otherwise good job modding. I'd suggest putting together a standard Vote Count template (when I used to GM I used Excel but other formats I'm sure work fine) that you can update from vote-count to vote-count to help minimize potential errors if you are not already doing so.

Ollie - you played a good game. Your bussing of Ranger (aside from the small glitch of ignoring HA and Jim which I noted and Imperium honed in on like a hound-dog) read pretty Town to me. Without help I probably would not have gotten you in the game. Too many other credible possibilities.

Aside from that I'm fairly happy with my play. Zeroed in on Ranger and didn't let that read go. Game would have probably gone a bit smoother for Town if more Town had not listened to the Snarky lynch or not taken her play into account Day 3.

I'm glad I got a strong Town read on Imperium even if I had some minor paranoia on Day 5. Keeping them alive was important as that was a strong presence I could trust and was important to getting Ollie to the rope with their own analysis.

Also glad that this game has given me clarity on Kill - he's basically Chesskid2016 and I now know how to handle him in future games.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I don't think I ever played with chesskid?

I also understand why you were so heavily scum reading me, I am not the best scum hunter, which is one of the reasons I plan on hydraing with Nacho at some point to improve my skills.

Be glad you never had the pleasure (yes, this is sarcasm) of playing with Chesskid.

Rach honestly the biggest issue I had with your slot is you didn't put enough words into play (and examples) that could make me see you actually coming to conclusions that I could Town-read. Basically my advice would be - put in the work (and by work I mean writing). It also didn't help that you inherited a fairly poisonous slot but you can't really do much about that other than Town as hard as you can.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm glad I read you right too, Magna! Also, super glad you're back

Glad to be back and glad you are still hanging around, even if not really playing right now