Mini Theme 2328: Death Note: Second Page. Day 3!

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: Aureal

I think Enchant lied when he said flavor wasn't relevant to role

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: Aureal

I think Enchant lied when he said flavor wasn't relevant to role

As someone who barely knows anything about Death Note the anime, I would be interested to know post game if that actually is a thing

How much do you know about Death Note the manga?

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: Aureal

I think Enchant lied when he said flavor wasn't relevant to role

As someone who barely knows anything about Death Note the anime, I would be interested to know post game if that actually is a thing

How much do you know about Death Note the manga?

As much as I know about Death Note the movie

What about Death Note the other movie?

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: CUDDLE TIME

I don't see how complaining about RVS banter is supposed to help on finding Kira

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: CUDDLE TIME

I don't see how complaining about RVS banter is supposed to help on finding Kira

So instead you prefer to just talk about flavor? Just wanting to talk about flavor and not solving is scummy.

- A

So what are the "correct" things to talk about during RVS?

[Radical Rat]

Well, I guess I do have to give you credit for the first non-fluff post.

[Radical Rat]

What are your opinions on Death Note, Adorable? ;3

[Radical Rat]

You're correct.

Therefore, T-Bone gets Town-locked so we can avoid this game becoming not good

[Radical Rat]

T-Bone is L.

Anime got worse after L died.

Therefore, T-Bone dying will make this game worse.

Therefore, T-Bone must be Town, so we don't eliminate him.

[Radical Rat]

And now that that's settled, talking about flavor has ruled out one player, thereby helping us find Kira!

[Radical Rat]

Alright, if things are getting serious now...

CUDDLE TIME's probably Town. In my experience, the Fun Police in games usually have just been Town, and I think everyone else looks fine. I don't agree with T-Bone's assessment of Black, because I wouldn't expect anything beyond "lazy reads" at this point in the game anyway.

VOTE: Hu Tao
Hu Tao's the only one I saw ACTUALLY treating it as a policy lim, and... that's all they've had to say about anything.

[Radical Rat]

Wow, that was fast, wanna explain?

You weren't kidding about it being easier to look town in this setup, though. Here I am: Kira, the god of the new world, and several people are already racing to townread me. Maybe Enchant sent out too many follower PMs.

I caught up with the pages and klick's evaluation of HPE feels like he is working out the game plus I agree that a scummy act is way more likely to be a follower than kira

what I'm getting from HPE is something else that makes it just as likely that it is kira

in general though only the followers will be scummy, at first, cause they have extra information and something very dear to protect

Kira's basically SK, yeah? Why wouldn't they be scummy?

[Radical Rat]

That post is the main reason I scumread HPE and I think it's a red herring

Aureal and Drew had a similar exchange in Reunion Mafia, and were both Town there.

Obviously, neither of them are HPE, so if this is something you think is coming from it as scum specifically, it could still hold significance. But I don't think the behavior is scummy in a vacuum.

[Radical Rat]

That post is the main reason I scumread HPE and I think it's a red herring

lol, yeah

I really don't think a follower comes in and decides "hey I'm gonna risk the game straightaway by promptly going up to Kira and obviously acting like a follower of him". Huge, huge risk and little to no benefit for it. Heck, even if nobody

else

ever notices it somehow, just tipping Kira off as to who a follower could be could make Kira act scummier and draw more attention to themself.

No no, maybe the followers SHOULD tell us who Kira is, let them cook

[Radical Rat]

scumpool of (RR, AD, hu tao, HPE, tbone) seems fine for d1

@klick: can you elaborate on AD = kira read?

every other slot in my pool seems to be more inviting as a potential kira flip than HPE, from how I expect kira to play

What's made you rule out Klick?

[Radical Rat]

You sure you haven't confused Klick with someone else? Because I'm not seeing any of this "investigative depth"

In fact, Klick is on my short list of potential Kiras. I've just been waiting for the right moment to switch my vote, and it seems I've found it.

VOTE: Klick

[Radical Rat]

Well, sounds like I have a hit then

[Radical Rat]

I thought the push on HPE was weak, and expressed as much, but what stuck out to me was your insistence on it being a red herring, and your supposition that Action Dan was Kira based on basically nothing. I wanted to wait and see how things developed, and then they just got worse.

Your reaction to HPE claiming a shitpost seemed to indicate you thought it WAS signaling Kira, but that doesn't quite align with your red herring claim earlier. I thought perhaps you might have been a Follower either misdirecting to protect Gimli, perhaps assuming HPE was the other partner and being worried someone else would interpret that as a signal, or potentially Dan's Follower, trying to do a reverse psychology, which would explain why you never actually voted Dan.

But then Gimli's suggestion that Kira won't look scummy combined with you being absent from his PoE pool due to "investigative depth" that doesn't exist, with you yourself describing your reads as vibe-based, made all of the pieces Klick into place.

You jumped at HPE because, as Kira, you're looking for these signals, and having seen something that you think looks like a signal but directed towards someone else, you tried to push that narrative. No matter whether it lands on Gimli or Dan, it's not you. Gimli's oddities would put him as a strong Follower candidate, and then Dragon immediately jumping on me as soon as I suggested I thought you were Kira... well I think he's overplayed the hand now.

So I suppose to answer your question, Klick, what I'm looking for... is justice.

[Radical Rat]

Gimli and Dan, in the event that you are actually a Follower instead.

If I'm to suppose I'm completely wrong and you're actually Town, then I'm kind of back to square one. Absent confounding evidence though, I'd be happy to just lim You > Gimli > Dan.

[Radical Rat]

What about ActionDan looks like building up a framework to you?

[Radical Rat]

Quick question to RR (I will be able to post more in a bit I think):

Was your post 321 implying you thought I was a follower of Klick's? How does this scumread add up if you and I both have Gimli in our Kira shortlist?

- Dragon

Yes it was.
It adds up because I am specifically reading you as overreacting to my accusation of Klick. Until then, I'd had your slot as a townlean. If Klick is Kira, Gimli obviously isn't, so you'd be free to try to push him as an alternative. If Klick isn't Kira, but is a Follower, Gimli becomes a viable option, and since my most immediate reason for scumreading you would be moot, I wouldn't be bothered by you agreeing.

P-Edit: Answered the question anyway, too late to take it back now.

As for TRing 320 if Klick is confirmed not Kira... I think the answer to that question is anti-Town to share.

[Radical Rat]

'Framework' might not be an accurate word for what I'm trying to describe. I can't think of a perfectly accurate word for it.

But what I'm seeing is this:

I might have found Aureal's aggression and questioning towny if it weren't for her being in the wrong at every turn. It sours me.

Slightly related but flavor discussion makes me itchy as I can see it being used as an avenue to communicate to Kira who their followers are. I haven't seen anything explicit yet though.

As many have said Klick's entrance is doodoo.

@cuddles : I can't shake that your post 7 and 8 doesn't come from scum. Rest of your hydra's posting is fine.

.As for Klick he came in and engaged with a trivial post and his rejoinder was not germane

I guess a good way to describe my issue with all of the above is that they feel very *positional*. When I read them, they feel like they are posted with the intent of making it clear to the thread what ActionDan's position is on a number of topics. Kind of like a checklist.

On me specifically, I feel like ActionDan wants to express skepticism of me without actually committing to something resembling a vote or a scumread:

My big question about this is why does it matter if they are follower or Kira? Even if they are follower and not Kira, voting them off is still good (just want to say this is from your point of view not mine, I don't have a read on hpe currently but I'll check after this)

Because HPE might let it slip that ActionDan is Kira

You're welcome to share that.

My big question about this is why does it matter if they are follower or Kira? Even if they are follower and not Kira, voting them off is still good (just want to say this is from your point of view not mine, I don't have a read on hpe currently but I'll check after this)

Because HPE might let it slip that ActionDan is Kira

This train of thought confuses me. Clearly you think HPE has likely

already

let it slip. So I don't understand what more there would be to gain here. We're not going to get confirmation of HPE being follower or not. And you saying to all of us that you think Dan could be Kira to HPE's follower, if true surely just makes them that much more careful to try not to look like that. I don't know why you would say it if you're only just thinking it's a possibility, so this doesn't feel like a real thought that you have and that distresses me.

The post you quoted is mostly me trying to answer Hu Tao with as little information as possible. Because several people at this point want to extract everything they can out of my reasoning before neither HPE nor ActionDan give an adequate response.

I misread your post before. I thought you were directly saying you thought HPE slipped that I was Kira not that they have the chance to maybe do so. I would like to know what adequate response you are expecting? Because as far I can tell I'm not being accused of anything. If you had reasons to throw my name there instead of anyone else's then you're welcome to share them.

Like, in the last quote specifically it feels like there's an active effort to question my approach without stating an opinion on the incident. It feels very careful and unnatural to me. I feel like the focus is on ActionDan's position.

I don't really see what you're seeing here. By play, Dan looks fine to me. My only real concern is the potential association you've made, in the event the game continues past your death.

[Radical Rat]

I don't really see what you're seeing here. By play, Dan looks fine to me. My only real concern is the potential association you've made, in the event the game continues past your death.

The kind of evidence you've presented for believing I'm Kira doesn't seem to match your confidence

(Fixed)

The evidence that you're sketchy as hell with internal inconsistencies, and that there happen to be two people defending you for dubious reasons, which is exactly what would be expected if you were Kira?

Yes, I'm confident. I know I am not infallible, so I am considering other worlds, but as far as D1 reads go, I think this is as good as I'm likely to get, and a solid place to start unraveling the rest of the game if I'm wrong.

[Radical Rat]

In Gimli's case, it's that his assessment of your actions was inconsistent with your own. Like it was a prepared thing he had to say, that didn't actually line up with what was happening.

For Dragon, it's the hypersensitivity. As soon as I voted you, suddenly I must be scum and my prodding at Gimli to determine his relationship with you is actually because he's my buddy. Didn't even try to ask questions and see if there's anything behind my push, just straight to the chainsaw. This is something that scum will frequently do by mistake with their partners in regular games, and is exacerbated here by the importance of keeping Kira specifically alive. It is also something I see scum get away with as "too scummy to be scum," which is never a concept I've been fond of.

When I initially voted you, it was a suspicion. When Dragon jumped on me for it, it was a confirmation.

[Radical Rat]

In Gimli's case, it's that his assessment of your actions was inconsistent with your own. Like it was a prepared thing he had to say, that didn't actually line up with what was happening.

For Dragon, it's the hypersensitivity. As soon as I voted you, suddenly I must be scum and my prodding at Gimli to determine his relationship with you is actually because he's my buddy. Didn't even try to ask questions and see if there's anything behind my push, just straight to the chainsaw. This is something that scum will frequently do by mistake with their partners in regular games, and is exacerbated here by the importance of keeping Kira specifically alive. It is also something I see scum get away with as "too scummy to be scum," which is never a concept I've been fond of.

When I initially voted you, it was a suspicion. When Dragon jumped on me for it, it was a confirmation.

I don't believe you actually think I'd chainsaw Kira so obviously here and without any reasoning even. I didn't jump on you for the vote on Klick, I "jumped on you" for the lack of vote on Gimli. And actually I jumped on Gimli, I'm not even scumreading you directly. So your presentation is false.

- Dragon

Scumreading me as being Gimli's follower is absolutely a scumread on me, just as I'm scumreading you for being Klick's. I am voting for Klick because I believe him to be Kira, which is our win condition. As a follower imitating that, I'd expect you to actually vote for who you believe you could more easily sell as Kira, which in the narrative you've concocted is Gimli.

As for what I believe you'd do, that is irrelevant compared to what I am actively observing you doing.

[Radical Rat]

In Gimli's case, it's that his assessment of your actions was inconsistent with your own. Like it was a prepared thing he had to say, that didn't actually line up with what was happening.

For Dragon, it's the hypersensitivity. As soon as I voted you, suddenly I must be scum and my prodding at Gimli to determine his relationship with you is actually because he's my buddy. Didn't even try to ask questions and see if there's anything behind my push, just straight to the chainsaw. This is something that scum will frequently do by mistake with their partners in regular games, and is exacerbated here by the importance of keeping Kira specifically alive. It is also something I see scum get away with as "too scummy to be scum," which is never a concept I've been fond of.

When I initially voted you, it was a suspicion. When Dragon jumped on me for it, it was a confirmation.

Gimli's interpretation of my posting makes sense to me but that's probably not that helpful to you!

I feel like you're doing mental shortcuts to the simplest explanation and clinging onto it as like, your way of viewing the game. I'm not convinced it means you're scum, but it is similar to how you played out Cosmos. I'm inclined to think the way you're doing it here is towny. It feels more pure.

Beyond that, I feel like Dragon himself responded well to the bit about him. I feel like we have a mismatch in how we view Mafia fundamentals. I also think 'too scummy to be scum' is nonsense but that's because it assumes a general 'scummy' behavior and everyone's 'scummy' is different. But I think that's very different from what you're saying.

What I'm saying is that scum will frequently make mistakes that give themselves up, and that something being a bad move for scum does not mean that scum won't make that move anyway. I've seen D1 chainsaws based on minimal pressure before. I've seen scum accidentally claim themselves into guilties before. I have personally done some very silly things as scum before. In all cases, I have had far more success catching scum by pushing on these mistakes than I have by letting myself believe scum wouldn't make them.

This is also what I mean when I say that my personal belief is irrelevant compared to my observations of reality.

[Radical Rat]

I feel like the things I've said to RR have gone in one ear and out the other

To an extent. I am reading and considering, but I am also coming from the perspective that you are attempting to manipulate me off of you.

[Radical Rat]

Gimli and Dan, in the event that you are actually a Follower instead.

If I'm to suppose I'm completely wrong and you're actually Town, then I'm kind of back to square one. Absent confounding evidence though, I'd be happy to just lim You > Gimli > Dan.

We're not actually gonna get flips though, so there's a good chance we wouldn't know until postgame whether Klick is town or follower.

That'd be where the potential for confounding evidence comes in. If someone is able to generate guilties outside that PoE, or innos within it, or grant us Klick's flip, and we trust whoever does so, then I would reevaluate. If that doesn't happen, we should hopefully still have two days to figure out where we went wrong.

[Radical Rat]

Am I able to verify that you have played this way recently? Probably, if I were inclined to meta dive. I believe you on that front.

Am I able to verify that this is a good enough reason to describe suppositions with little explanation or follow-up as having "investigative depth?" Not really. I'd have liked to have heard from Gimli directly before all of this, but Dragon's reaction gave me the certainty I was lacking, and now I fear the well may be poisoned for Gimli's potential response. Not that he shouldn't still explain, just that analysis of it will be more difficult now.

Am I able to verify that Dragon thought the most reasonable explanation for me prodding Gimli about his opinions and ties to you is that Gimli is Kira that I have decided to make a show of interacting with for an excuse to pivot from someone unrelated to any of this? Not without some sort of mind reading apparatus.

[Radical Rat]

Gimli and Dan, in the event that you are actually a Follower instead.

If I'm to suppose I'm completely wrong and you're actually Town, then I'm kind of back to square one. Absent confounding evidence though, I'd be happy to just lim You > Gimli > Dan.

We're not actually gonna get flips though, so there's a good chance we wouldn't know until postgame whether Klick is town or follower.

That'd be where the potential for confounding evidence comes in. If someone is able to generate guilties outside that PoE, or innos within it, or grant us Klick's flip, and we trust whoever does so, then I would reevaluate. If that doesn't happen, we should hopefully still have two days to figure out where we went wrong.

Can you clarify this? I don't know exactly what you mean here

Some skills can give us similar information to a flip if they're in the game, some skills (and detective) can generate innos or guilties, and the game's continued running in the scenario where none of that happens and all three of my suspects die means that none of them were Kira, but since we have until Day 5 unless the detective dies, we would still have at least two days to figure the rest out.

[Radical Rat]

Gimli and Dan, in the event that you are actually a Follower instead.

If I'm to suppose I'm completely wrong and you're actually Town, then I'm kind of back to square one. Absent confounding evidence though, I'd be happy to just lim You > Gimli > Dan.

We're not actually gonna get flips though, so there's a good chance we wouldn't know until postgame whether Klick is town or follower.

That'd be where the potential for confounding evidence comes in. If someone is able to generate guilties outside that PoE, or innos within it, or grant us Klick's flip, and we trust whoever does so, then I would reevaluate. If that doesn't happen, we should hopefully still have two days to figure out where we went wrong.

Can you clarify this? I don't know exactly what you mean here

Some skills can give us similar information to a flip if they're in the game, some skills (and detective) can generate innos or guilties, and the game's continued running in the scenario where none of that happens and all three of my suspects die means that none of them were Kira, but since we have until Day 5 unless the detective dies, we would still have at least two days to figure the rest out.

Ahh ok

And do you think Klick has shown signs of being Kira? Or is just in general scummy?

I thought the push on HPE was weak, and expressed as much, but what stuck out to me was your insistence on it being a red herring, and your supposition that Action Dan was Kira based on basically nothing. I wanted to wait and see how things developed, and then they just got worse.

Your reaction to HPE claiming a shitpost seemed to indicate you thought it WAS signaling Kira, but that doesn't quite align with your red herring claim earlier. I thought perhaps you might have been a Follower either misdirecting to protect Gimli, perhaps assuming HPE was the other partner and being worried someone else would interpret that as a signal, or potentially Dan's Follower, trying to do a reverse psychology, which would explain why you never actually voted Dan.

But then Gimli's suggestion that Kira won't look scummy combined with you being absent from his PoE pool due to "investigative depth" that doesn't exist, with you yourself describing your reads as vibe-based, made all of the pieces Klick into place.

You jumped at HPE because, as Kira, you're looking for these signals, and having seen something that you think looks like a signal but directed towards someone else, you tried to push that narrative. No matter whether it lands on Gimli or Dan, it's not you. Gimli's oddities would put him as a strong Follower candidate, and then Dragon immediately jumping on me as soon as I suggested I thought you were Kira... well I think he's overplayed the hand now.

So I suppose to answer your question, Klick, what I'm looking for... is justice.

[Radical Rat]

Welcome Willow!

I look forward to seeing that reads list rearranged once you've read properly

[Radical Rat]

Drew out of ten Doctors agree: You should vote Klick

[Radical Rat]

HPE, why have you felt the need to claim so early?

[Radical Rat]

This one has incognito, and put it on Gimli

[Radical Rat]

I mean, I was paying attention, having read the setup I knew Gimli'd been Incognito'd, my point is more why would you have claimed responsibility unprompted like this?

[Radical Rat]

and also who cares about claiming incognito it stops being useful in a day

The same reason you shouldn't claim as VT in a normal game.

[Radical Rat]

Skills are literally PRs. Some are more powerful than others, and as such higher or lower priority for kills.

Kira and Followers would ideally want to hit more valuable skills first, just as Mafia in a regular game do. While this game is different in that finding Detective would trump any individual skills, until the Detective is identified, people slipping or claiming skills is going to influence kills.

By claiming Incognito before it was necessary to do so, you've narrowed that pool, just as would happen if you prematurely claimed vanilla in a normal.

[Radical Rat]

Some skills are better than others, that's true, but remember that:

• We only get 10 skills total.
  
• Kira knows which ones aren't in play, which means he knows which ARE.
  
• 3 of those 10 will be on the scumteam.
  
• And only a handful are
  particularly
  useful, but there's good odds we're missing several by way of being the outlier 5, or on scum.

So if you think "Well gee Erinys, now you've really done it! We could lose a useful skill by Kira targeting people other than you!", then you should consider how unlikely it is that of the 6 most useful skills (Access To Files, Clingy, Go To Jail, Autopsy (highly debatable), Check and Calling For Time (also debatable)), town realistically only has access to like... 3? And both Autopsy and Calling For Time can be used against town. Same with Clingy, actually.

I mean, yeah, it's not like. Game-ruining end of the world stuff, and it is possible Town didn't get many of the more useful ones, but I don't see how using it for a rather weak LAMIST argument while you're only under moderate pressure is worth that? And even if you think all of that is useless, and think this is a stronger clear than otherwise, what is it about the current situation that motivated you to claim now?

[Radical Rat]

in other news I also dislike how RR is pushing HPE because revealing incognito isn't a scummy thing

I didn't say it was scummy. It (the action) doesn't seem to make sense as any alignment here. I was just trying to understand its (the High Princess) thought process.

[Radical Rat]

Pagetop perchance?

[Radical Rat]

in other news I also dislike how RR is pushing HPE because revealing incognito isn't a scummy thing

I didn't say it was scummy. It (the action) doesn't seem to make sense as any alignment here. I was just trying to understand its (the High Princess) thought process.

Really? That's not the impression I've been getting- I don't understand why this was such a big issue to you, and I understand even less if you don't even think it's alignment indicative.

I mean I was trying to figure out whether it was alignment indicative, rather than outright accusing it of being scummy.

I WAS pushing over it, but it was more interrogative than accusatory. It was a big issue to me because it was a strange play that didn't seem to make sense in the current gamestate.

Unfortunately, the conclusion I've come to is that I don't know. I am not able to understand why HPE thought it relevant to claim, in spite of its attempt to explain, and arguing in circles about it is unlikely to be productive, so I stopped. I may revisit it later if my resolve in my solve wavers, or if HPE does something I'm able to more confidently classify as scummy, but for now my conclusion is that it is simply a weird play that doesn't make sense to advance any agenda.

[Radical Rat]

Right then, Dan gets off the list of backup Kiras, and my current solve remains unchanged.

I will compromise to avoid deadline if necessary, but I still strongly prefer Klick.

[Radical Rat]

Well, the flip we're actually guaranteed to get is going to be Kira, Detective, or Neither.

If Klick manages to flip Detective, Dan immediately becomes the biggest suspect, and my attention would turn to trying to figure out whether he's a Follower hoping to distract from Kira with his claim, or Kira banking on us assuming Kira wouldn't be so bold.

If Klick flips as neither, and we get no further information, I will work under the assumption he was a Follower, and my gaze shifts toward Gimli. In this scenario, I probably start townreading you. My working theory would be that Klick saw HPE's interaction with Gimli as a signal, believed that HPE was the other follower, and was worried that the Town would pick up on that, and started attempting damage control by calling it an intentional red herring and trying to drag attention to Dan instead.

If Klick flips neither, and we get a flip claiming him to be Town, and that flip comes from a trustworthy source, I have to re-evaluate everything. My pool would probably become HPE/Hu Tao/Willow, because they're the ones who are basically in my Town pile by default, but I don't have any strong, direct reads on.

[Radical Rat]

HPE, what do you think a genuine Assistant/Detective should do in this situation?

Dan certainly shouldn't be telling us which one he is, because then Kira knows how to kill. And while I do share your concern with potentially a gambit to bait a CC, I think we just go with it for now, and Assistant should NOT actually CC yet. If Dan is a follower, Kira can't be certain enough to risk NOT killing imo. If Dan IS Kira he'll obviously live, and real detective can CC after checking for secrets tonight.

So, what would you have him do, if the claim is real?

[Radical Rat]

I apologize for my absence at the day's end, it was partly intentional, which I will elaborate on later, but I'd meant to return before deadline and got preoccupied with other things instead.

For now, I'll go ahead and claim that I was Not given the Death Note.

[Radical Rat]

If someone has knowledge that ActionDan was not the Assistant, I strongly believe they should claim that information now.

I don't think ActionDan was fakeclaiming, but I want to limit scum's ability to go back and say 'oh yeah I'm actually the Assistant'.

No. This would necessitate a hypothetical real assistant to claim, which should ONLY ever happen if we're about to eliminate the Detective, or to settle a counter claim situation.

[Radical Rat]

Argh whatever

VOTE: Klick

This is why I kept quiet during most of the last day of yesterday. Dragon voting Klick at such a critical moment was the first serious challenge to my view of the game. I wasn't sure whether it was a gambit or not, so I wanted to wait and see if it stuck, without giving any indication of whether it was working if it was a gambit.

It did not stick, and indeed Dragon went right back to espousing Klick as a Townread, but by that point I had gotten distracted with EDF, so I didn't get to mention it before Hu Tao went over. Which... honestly, don't get that wagon. Should've been Gimli at that point, but what's done is done.

VOTE: Klick

Still top Kira for me, still potentially a Follower if I'm wrong, so it's gonna take a damn good case on someone else to get me to move.

[Radical Rat]

And I don't understand everyone else's view of the game, where this somehow isn't obvious.

Dragon's been bending over backwards to keep you alive, and stop me from pushing you, with that single temporary vote being the only move contrary.

I did very briefly entertain the idea that maybe you were Detective and CUDDLE TIME was an overzealous Assistant instead, but then Dan claimed and died for it so that's off the table.

So at this point I'm pretty convinced I had the solve right.

[Radical Rat]

Dragon's been bending over backwards to keep you alive, and stop me from pushing you, with that single temporary vote being the only move contrary

Can you quote the posts where he does this?

-Black

It's more likely that I'm wrong in my reads than that we'll get a good flashwagon elimination without ActionDan on-board

I'll consolidate on anyone except you if I MUST, but I'd rather at least try to flashwagon the PoE and go back to voting whoever Dan wants if it fails.

- Dragon

I thought the push on HPE was weak, and expressed as much, but what stuck out to me was your insistence on it being a red herring, and your supposition that Action Dan was Kira based on basically nothing. I wanted to wait and see how things developed, and then they just got worse.

Your reaction to HPE claiming a shitpost seemed to indicate you thought it WAS signaling Kira, but that doesn't quite align with your red herring claim earlier. I thought perhaps you might have been a Follower either misdirecting to protect Gimli, perhaps assuming HPE was the other partner and being worried someone else would interpret that as a signal, or potentially Dan's Follower, trying to do a reverse psychology, which would explain why you never actually voted Dan.

But then Gimli's suggestion that Kira won't look scummy combined with you being absent from his PoE pool due to "investigative depth" that doesn't exist, with you yourself describing your reads as vibe-based, made all of the pieces Klick into place.

You jumped at HPE because, as Kira, you're looking for these signals, and having seen something that you think looks like a signal but directed towards someone else, you tried to push that narrative. No matter whether it lands on Gimli or Dan, it's not you. Gimli's oddities would put him as a strong Follower candidate, and then Dragon immediately jumping on me as soon as I suggested I thought you were Kira... well I think he's overplayed the hand now.

So I suppose to answer your question, Klick, what I'm looking for... is justice.

Rereading this, meh I can see your points of Klick being Kira. But I feel annoyed cause I want to have some townreads I'm confident of. And I'm also still reading Rat as scum.

Rat, would you mind untunneling Klick for a bit and pushing elsewhere as if Klick flipped not-Kira (which would helo me read you better if you are town and in fact also help me read Klick better), and then you can go back to pushing him?

I mean you can't be 100% sure he's Kira anyway and your tunnel makes you hard to read and the gamestate pretty annoying yo operate in. If you die then I will seriously consider pushing Klick. If you don't you can resume pushing him tomorrow after we have info from a flip and detective, which will like help, I guess.

- Dragon

VOTE: Gimli
HURT: RR

Will elaborate on this later but I wanna see if anyone else is seeing what I'm seeing first

- Dragon

Okay, as promised, here's my process:

I've been townreading Klick for a while now (perhaps for bad reasons, but with his posting I feel I'm more likely to be right for the wrong reasons than just wrong). I've also concluded that T-Bone is town and that Drew is not Kira regardless of his alignment. I've thought Hu Tao was scummy but her play makes sense more as scummy town than as Kira IMO (but not letting her off the hook completely). So that leaves a pool of Aureal/Gimli/RR/AD/HPE. This pool doesn't necessarily contain all scum but I do think it contains Kira.

I've been wanting to townread almost every single post that Gimli made this game, because they are (at least on surface level) towny posts, because they look pretty solvy. However I don't really think any of them are posts that couldn't be faked by scum, especially uninformed scum (I.E. Kira). Additionally, Thomith pointed out in the hydra PT and I agree with this, some posts feel like solving for the sake of solving without thought process behind them / fake solving, for example:
in 107/108/109, Gimli is scumreading Klick for posting something irrelevant to what was said (?)
In 246, Gimli is liking "Klick's evaluation of HPE", except at that point Klick has written 0 evaluation of HPE (???) (like I guess he could've meant "I think HPE is follower, not Kira" which is also what I was thinking, and this possibility is also why I didn't really vote Gimli back then or say anything)
And in general I think he puts a lot more effort this game into looking like he has reads than in actually forming reads? Because I just don't see the thought process in his posts all that much (I do see SOME process, I just feel it's lacking)

Well anyway, this explains why Gimli was on my Kira shortlist more than why I voted him. The reason I voted him was this:

I want to remove hu tao from d1 pool and work with (AD, RR, HPE, tbone)

as for HPE: is there any slot defending it? does it have potential followers?

Why hu tao?

- A

I enjoyed the flow of hu tao's latter posting with aureal and agree with the town lean on drew, I can see where both stances are coming from

granted it's thin

scumpool of (RR, AD, hu tao, HPE, tbone) seems fine for d1

@klick: can you elaborate on AD = kira read?

every other slot in my pool seems to be more inviting as a potential kira flip than HPE, from how I expect kira to play

What's made you rule out Klick?

I'm never flipping klick on d1 regardless (no this isn't signaling (neither is this (ad infinitum)))

I feel like his stances are closely aligned with how I feel about players which is good, and his read on HPE has investigative depth that could be harder to think of when scum

You sure you haven't confused Klick with someone else? Because I'm not seeing any of this "investigative depth"

In fact, Klick is on my short list of potential Kiras. I've just been waiting for the right moment to switch my vote, and it seems I've found it.

VOTE: Klick

To me, Gimli's explanation of his reads in posts 309/313/318 felt somewhat off, and I thought that it would make sense for Rat, given their incredulity at Gimli's read of Klick, to go after Gimli actually (because GImli having a weird and from Rat's POV unjustified/completely wrong read should be questioned with more than "are you sure you didn't confuse Klick with someone else?"), instead of using said incredulity as a pivot for suddenly voting Klick. It just struck me as a contrived/unnatural progression and made me think GImli could be Kira with Rat as a follower.

Reading Aureal's post: yes, jarring is exactly the word to describe that pivot.

- Dragon

[Radical Rat]

While I do think Hu Tao was a bad elimination, saying there won't be will for a Kira elimination is... real bad.

It creates the excuse of whenever there IS a will to eliminate someone you can just go "Oh, but if this were Kira we wouldn't be this close to eliminating them, so we shouldn't hammer"

[Radical Rat]

HPE, what do you think of radical rat?

Probably need to devote some real time to reading and analyzing but my surface-level comments would be that they seem... confrontational? They've had a few conversations with others with an argument directly counter to the other's argument. It feels kinda towny from skimming, and that along with them never voting for AD who we can at this point verify as Assistant kinda makes me think they're town?

My problem with clearing Rat off of this basis is that this game exists and is described by what you've just said

This is misleading because that's a multiball game.

[Radical Rat]

My general approach to scum is to lie as little as possible and push things that I genuinely think would be scummy if I didn't know better.
In multiball, I actually DON'T know better, so when I'm making those arguments, I mean them, just as I do when I'm Town.

A better comparison would probably be HMS Mutiny, where I was Town, convinced I caught scum, pushed hard for it, got ignored, and Town lost. Except in that game I could actually understand why people weren't seeing what I saw, but y'know.

[Radical Rat]

But Kira doesn't want to eliminate their Followers, nor do Followers want to eliminate each other, nor do Followers want to eliminate Kira.

In multiball, I want the other scumteam dead.

[Radical Rat]

Because you're using it to convince other people that I'm scum. I need to point out why the comparison you're trying to make doesn't apply, so that people don't listen to it.

[Radical Rat]

No, I'm using it to say you shouldn't be cleared for bad invalid reasons and you're getting super combative over it

I don't think just pointing out why the point you're making isn't relevant is being super combative

[Radical Rat]

Also worth noting that Radical Rat spends the whole previous day phase before that hard-pushing for my slot's elimination (Dingle Dangle Scarecrow) with confidence, which is probably why this sticks in my head so strongly as evidence that RR can express that kind of confidence as scum

Because I genuinely believed you were scum, just like I do now.

[Radical Rat]

No, I'm using it to say you shouldn't be cleared for bad invalid reasons and you're getting super combative over it

I don't think just pointing out why the point you're making isn't relevant is being super combative

Do you think you aren't being super combative in regards to me here generally? Or are you just arguing for it in this specific circumstance for the semantic win

I think I'm being regularly combative to you

[Radical Rat]

Also, this isn't really relevant to this game's arguments, but I take issue with my self-defense in Cosmos being called "implausible," I think it was very plausible.

[Radical Rat]

Honestly, Freedom just kinda inherited my Drew Townread.

[Radical Rat]

What if, purely hypothetically, it were to be confirmed that Hu Tao wasn't a Follower?

Who would you view as Kira then, Gimli?

[Radical Rat]

To be clear, I don't actually have a result yet. I'd written off Hu Tao as Town because of the circumstances of their elimination, and was hoping to save it for someone I actually questioned... but your point wrt Drew seems plausible, and I have Check-out rather than autopsy, so waiting is just going to make the results harder to interpret.

I'll get back to you once Enchant gets back to me.

[Radical Rat]

Results are in! Any last guesses?

[Radical Rat]

Alright, no need to delay further.

Either Kira got really (un)lucky in guessing Dan's name, or Hu Tao was a Follower. We're in 6:2.

I'll be looking through Hu Tao's ISO tonight to see if anyone else looks more likely to be their Kira, but it looks like I'll probably be owing Klick an apology

[Radical Rat]

Oh neat, we get both Followers.

I don't think anyone's going to doubt the Detective claim since Dan wasn't exactly subtle with the crumbs, so I'm fine taking this at face value, despite the obvious incorrect conclusion.

I'll add Aureal's ISO to my studying tonight, but off the top of my head I do think I remember her also consistently townreading Drew... actually now that I think about it the whole "I don't think I have a Town tell" situation could have been Aureal attempting to soft to Drew...

[Radical Rat]

I should also add: Aureal targeted Cuddles last night. This alone proves Cuddles isn't Kira. And with how Aureal was pushing follower!Cuddles, we can safely say they aren't a follower either.

Followers don't know who each other are.

[Radical Rat]

But also we do have both Followers accounted for, so... nevermind I guess.

[Radical Rat]

Having looked through Aureal's ISO... never votes for Drew-slot, tends to offer soft defenses for the slot without explicitly committing to a townread, and the interaction where she's trying to convince Drew that he can't trust his townread on her... In combination with Hu Tao's ISO, where there isn't really anyone else that stands out as a potential Kira... Yeah, I'm satisfied with this solve.

VOTE: Gob Sorry you inherited a doomed scumslot.

[Radical Rat]

I confused

there's no way to check RR's claim then

Yes we have. We kill Rat today and if doesn't end the game we can verify their info is true.

I mean I'm fine going first if I must, but I'd prefer to just end the game today, y'know?

[Radical Rat]

Well, I wasn't lying.

Just get Gob tomorrow please?

[Radical Rat]

Also, Klick, I'm sorry for being obnoxious. Since I'd already binned you as scum I wasn't really taking your complaints seriously.

[Radical Rat]

Nor is it from me. I don't twilight troll.

[Radical Rat]

Oh did I say we were in 6:2? Silly me, what a careless mistake!

[Radical Rat]

Thanks for modding Enchant!

This was a really neat setup, and an excellent playerlist to go along with it.

I was worried about how things might go after flipping Freedom/Gob as Not Kira, but me dying first thankfully avoided that being a problem.

[Radical Rat]

10/10 Would get dayvigged again

[Radical Rat]

I think everyone in this game should join the next run as a hydra. Surely with all of our combined experience, we couldn't possibly lose!

[Radical Rat]

Do you guys feel that this setup is swingy?

It is, but it was advertised as such, so not really a problem.

Normally I don't really like flipless games, but the flagbearer mechanics and strong Town investigative utilities make up for it, with the swinginess being a natural consequence of that.

[Radical Rat]

from mod PT: biancospino noticed my heavy kira slip when I was talking about 'mod announcement' if both kira followers are dead

I guess it was so blatant and weird no one else did

I noticed, but obviously wasn't gonna point it out

[Radical Rat]

10/10 Would get dayvigged again

I totally thought you were town until you said we were 6:2, I didn't expect my support for you to go the way it did but it worked out

I also thought you were Town, honestly had HPE pegged as the second Follower until you got caught.

[Radical Rat]

If you knew Rat's meta, you'd know that's well within their bounds as a scum player

I do still think that multiball doesn't apply here, and I can pull similar tunnels as Town, but yeah, I was really worried you'd be able to remind enough people of that to turn things around. Which is indeed why I got "regularly combative" about it, though I hope I wasn't too frustrating to deal with

[Radical Rat]

Yeah, things were pretty tight for a good while there. I realized there was a good chance to be outed as follower (whether voluntarily or not) and so was trying to keep somewhat distanced from Gimli, and made what I figured would look like a push on him that I believed in but wouldn't convince others. Eventually Dan started his EoD wagon on Gimli though and I knew it was time to cut bait. I find it baffling that people don't see it when my reasoning is actually contrived like it was there, yet reasoning that I would totally have as town constantly gets picked on.

GG, and thanks Enchant for modding this again!

I'm still confused why the detective gets

better

information if the assistant doesn't help than if they do. (Yeah it led town astray this time but that was very circumstantial)

It's not necessarily better information, just different, and while Assistant is alive helping the Detective does still have the option to use Stalk.

Stalk gives a guaranteed guilty, but cannot give a guaranteed clear, and is also highly unlikely to catch Kira, because if Kira's using Assassinate it's PROBABLY because they're sure on a detective.

Brainstorm gives (almost) guaranteed clears, but cannot give a guaranteed guilty, but is also more likely to be able to catch Kira, because while Kira DOES have ways to hide from it, using swap/hide is extremely situational.

[Radical Rat]

It is specified that the ONLY visiting abilities are Shinigami Eyes and Assassinate, regardless of whether the flavor of an ability would imply visitation.