Mini 1400(!): Bubble Tape Mafia - It's Over!

[Thor665]

Vote: Maverick Maestro

I'm out of RVS.

[Thor665]

@MaverickMaestro - I'd be more forgiving towards your attitude if you were actually doing anything to scumhunt. If we all played like you this game would already be full of fail.

@Cyber - does he *not* do that when scum?

[Thor665]

Thor, are you town this game?

My recollection of your bad methods is that I answer 'of course' you should just believe me.
Vote MM.

@MM: I have to start somewhere. Its better than wasting time on "all your base belong to me". What are you doing that's scum hunting? Nothing. Vote stands.

I was going to respond to Maestro's post...but this nails it pretty well all by itself.
So I'll just grunt and nod.

[Thor665]

@Maestro - why not just wait to post then?

I could be game to lynch kushm4sta too.

[Thor665]

Naw, 'of course' is a scum tell. As is "My recollection of your bad methods is that I answer 'of course' you should just believe me." but you are scum independent of alignment.

If you believe that, why ask?
Derp.

P-edit: I think MM is town actually. Ok, I'll lynch Kushmasta

Why is MM town?

@Maestro - why not just wait to post then?

I could be game to lynch kushm4sta too.

That's not my style, I'd rather be active and involved in a game as opposed to being in the background.

My bad, that first post was totally active and involved, I just didn't realize.

Unvote: MaverickMaestro
Vote: kushm4sta

Huzzah, speed lynch ho!

@Zipper - so slow!

[Thor665]

@MM - Your logic is bad, and I hope you cure yourself of it sooner rather than later.
Now is the time to drop the discussion you're claiming to drop and offer the reads you have to prove you are actually scumhunting as opposed to being a lump.

@Zipper - I approve.

[Thor665]

I'm guessing that Thor voted him for only the first of those two reasons, which does not seem scummy to me.

I voted him because he already had a vote on him.

[Thor665]

Hi Thor! Thoughts on Cyber's response to me? Opinion on Jake?

P-edit: Hi Thor! Pretty sure Thor is town. I would know because *mumble mumble meta mumble gut reads HURRRRR*

1. I currently lean Jake scum and Cyber null with probably townish vibes, but neither read is very solid.

2. I still don't think you can read me for a hill of beans. We've already established in other games that you actually don't know my meta and I'm amazed you want to whip that out again.

Why are you ignoring the wagon on [insert obnoxious to type name here]?

[Thor665]

@Thor: How can jake from state farm be scum if you dont even know what hes wearing?
----no really though, is that just because lurk = scum or because you haz meta read? whats goin on there

It's because he attacked sheeping of me wuth no addressing of me nor actual constructive counter suggetsion. In other words it was directed negativity to cut down and for no reason other than that.

Now, maybe he's town who just thinks I'm a bad player...well, I would have expected mayb a jab at me directly then.
Maybe he's town who just thinks it was funny...I would have expected some other commentary then, because other stuff had been happening.
It makes sense as scum though, cut down one player, suggest another player is bad for listening to them, make no comment that is directly addressable - win.

Why, what's your read on them?

We've already established in other games that I don't do meta and I'm amazed you want to whip that out again. (But if there is something else you wanna whip out, lmk!)

Pretty sure Thor is town. I would know because *mumble mumble

meta

Fire - go die in it.

Ugh, WHY IS THOR ALWAYS SCUM SML.

Either I'm bad at playing town or you're bad at telling town, or some combination thereof.
You've already claimed you can tell when I'm town...so I'm betting on the latter.

[Thor665]

Haha, yeah this is our lynch.

Kill me for my honesty and be wrong.

Replace out?

[Thor665]

If he's town he's not giving up - he's not playing.
Big difference.

d3x is town and reinforces my opinion on Cyber.

[Thor665]

So then you're agreeing that you're not actually doing much to help the game...so I don't know why a replace out request would seem surprising.

Basically you've claimed the following.
1. You're not scumhunting.
2. The wagon on you is so bad you'll insult people but do nothing else about it (and will call this 'defending')
3. You don't actually care if you die, because you don't have any care about the game.

Point 3 alone is a good reason to replace out all by itself. You're supposed to play to win, and if #3 is true then...you aren't. Since, statistically, you're more likely to be on my side than not, *I* rather care if you die in a stupid way while town. So, if you're town replace out so maybe someone who cares about my wincon will be in the slot? If you're scum...same deal, you're screwing over your buddies (unless your plan is to shove it towards a quicklynch and cut off conversation) you owe it to them to be better than this because, again, you're supposed to help them win. So, again, replacing out is a good solution because it will give them a partner who actually gives a hang about winning like, I presume, they do.

My thoughts.

[Thor665]

lol Thor. Go ahead and pretend my *mumble mumble ... HURRRR* statement was serious. I say pretend because I know you aren't that dumb that you don't understand jokes.

Here is some fun and games. Read on me? Why is d3x town?

1. Derp unless scum.
2. Wait, you can do snap scum and town calls and you can't spot that? Seriously, you have no read on him after that post at all? Ask me the question again and I'll answer, but I want you to clarify what your read is on him first - no reasoning needed, just your read.

[Thor665]

^ Scum post.

Guy who has no ability to read Thor post.

[Thor665]

2. Wait, you can do snap scum and town calls and you can't spot that? Seriously, you have no read on him after that post at all? Ask me the question again and I'll answer, but I want you to clarify what your read is on him first - no reasoning needed, just your read.

Im null on him. Seriously. Asking a ton of questions is usually a nice way for scum to blend in and appear to be doing something, but I've seen town do it too.

Uh-huh...You get nothing from the fact that he read a discussion on meta by one player and decided to go independently verify it himself *and* found a discrepancy *and* then responded with that discrepancy by (unlike you) asking about it as opposed to just acting like his random thoughts are made of win and bacon?
That's pretty ruddy town.

Thor is scum for the following reasons:
1. Trying to discredit and cast doubt on my reads (particularly on him)
2. Implying he is town w/o actually saying it. (Especially the psentence about statistical likelihood of being on the same team)
3. Continuing AGAIN to harp on what_could_ be minor inconsistencies in my posts when he KNOWS that I dont do meta. I've explained that to him several times in the past.

1. Hint: your reads might actually deserve to be questioned.
2. This is such a bad tell...and, also, I did actually say it when you asked...so...oh gawds, you are fething terrible.
3. You brought it up. Maybe it was a joke, but it's hardly weird that I referenced it you lackwit.

Also his Kushmasta scumread is scummy and he should feel scummy.

Do tell?

[Thor665]

@thor where did I say I would never scumhunt? I'm just at work right now on mi phone is all.

Do you think I'm scum or do you just dislike my attitude?

1. I never said you wouldn't either, I'm just agreeing with you agreeing with me that you weren't doing it.

2. I actually have no real read on you at the moment other than dislike of your playstyle (but that is hardly a new thing in this game...). I'd probably go so far as to call the AtE (Appeal to Emotion) defense thus far as worthy of a decent knee-jerk lynch reaction from me. I do know that if you're going to play like you have thus far that I don't want you in the game. I take it you're telling me that this is not normal for you?

@Cyber

He has more choices than that. I would say;

4. Play the game

Is the one I endorse.

[Thor665]

You know whats hard for scum players to mimic? Original town-motivated train of thoughts.

Original thought is as confirmably townish as unoriginal thought is confirmably scummish.
You're making a false dichotomy here.

Kush hasn't done anything scummy. He just said he doesnt care about the game and acknowledged that MS has different styles that he doesn't care about. Being emotional is a

town tell

. Or is it WIFOM? Thats what people try to tell me when I call out obvious AtE town tells.

I agree he hasn't done anything scummy (besides the AtE) - so what?

1. Why would scum claim that?
2. And you aren't insulting me for voting you? Oh wait, you ARE. You are calling me derp and telling me that I suck. Fancy that, this is a 2 way street Thor, be careful when you cross it.
3. Why does this make him scum? Scum do care if they die.

Massive hint: this was a list of reasons I wanted him to replace out.
NOT a list of reasons he was scum.

You are derp and annoyed that I call you derp...well, stop being derp.

P-edit: How about Thor then? Look at his posts. Hes just flinging mud at me for attacking him and implying that Kushmasta is scummy for doing that.

This is so bad.

@AP: Vote d3x? I don't see anything suspicious about him. In fact it looks like he's trying to scumhunt, so town points for him.

Trying to scumhunt =/= scumhunting.

Are you saying D3x isn't scumhunting?
Because otherwise this is sideline semantic nothingness.

[Thor665]

Oh man, I was about to respond to you as though we were in [ongoing] but here it actually makes sense for you to say that.
Carry on

[Thor665]

@AP - my reply would be;

1. You have said I was voting him because I called him scum - quote that, because you're now saying I'm backpeddaling from that stance. Please, quote it, that would be so amazing and I'll stop calling you derp for the rest of this entire game. Promise.

2. I would agree there is a contradiction there, you should make a wagon happen.

[Thor665]

I have the exact opposite read on pidgeotto at this point. Cmon, hes calling teams less than 24 hours in and being a big pain in the Smurf to everyone. I highly doubt hes scum.

Have you seen AP as scum before?

[Thor665]

@ Thor - based on my skimming, no I don't feel he is. It looks like he's trying to appear busy, but nothing of value is coming from his posts.

Why are you skimming as opposed to reading when making those sorts of calls?
Do you stand by your skim reads? I mean, why even tell me it's a skim read?

[Thor665]

He accused you of voting for "the sake of a wagon". Is that true? Did you ever say you were doing that? Your vote has been a PL vote, correct? Why is d3x saying that Cyber's PL vote is scummy and yours isn't?

Accuse is poorly used here - he simply said that's what he thinks.

Honestly, both that and a policy lynch re really functionally two ways of saying the same thing, that part of your point is silly. The curious point is that he sees what I did as a reaction push and sees what Cyber did as scummy - that's the contradiction.

I also note a lack of quotes.
You derp.

You are right, I didn't call it scummy. I wonder why.

[Thor665]

I repeat.

Is d3x scummy for that?

Why are you on a PL when

you agree that d3x islikely scum

for takinga stance on you that contradicts itself?

You are so derp.

[Thor665]

I said it was contradictory.
It's not scummy because there are myriad reasons town might say something stupid and I don't see it as a home run scum move.

You would, i presume, claim that town can and will say derp things while pushing their reads...so why is his worse than others?

[Thor665]

blatant discrediting everywhere.

Well....gonna quote me saying that thing you said I said and that I called you a liar for?
I promised to stop calling you derp if you did.
I'll expand that to not discrediting you for the rest of this game if, when you can't provide it, you stop mewling about how I don't think you're a good player and how that somehow makes me scummy.

[Thor665]

Ok, Thor. You can argue that you didn't outright say it was a scum-lynch, but your response to my post HEAVILY implies it:

Also

his Kushmasta scumread is scummy

and he should feel scummy.

Do tell?

Why didn't you say "I don't have a scumread on Kush? Why do you think I do?" Or "What is scummy about my Kush policy vote?"

...bwuh?
You said you found my scumread scummy - I wanted you to explain why (since I'd never made one).
You then dodged and dodged till this point.
Tell me thepost or comment I made BEFORE THIS where you decided I had a scumread...where is it? What post? That's what I wanted from you and kept requesting from you, and now we're here with me "implying" it *after* you got the vibe from me...so...the hell?

You can't tell me that post 88 isn't a

damn

good reason for me to understand that your vote on Kush IS a real vote.

Yes I can.
Especially since you got that vbe before that post was even made.

Why would you not correct me if you did not think Kush was scummy at the time? And yes I know you stated that your vote is a PL in the next 6 minutes and that is all well and good. But you can't argue that post 88 did not heavily imply it was a vote on scum. Why not call me out on being wrong in my assertion that it was?

I kind of did call you wrong on it because I kept asking you to explain it and justify the belief.

You didn't say anything about your vote before that other than 'wagon ho' and

Why are you ignoring the wagon on [insert obnoxious to type name here]?

You are correct - I said that about my vote.
Somewhere in there you decided that meant I had to have a scumread on him...somehow...and that I'd said it...and then backtracked on it...and Thor is a dick for calling AP derp because he doesn't believe AP has great skills. Maybe...just maybe, if you squint, stuff like that is why I believe what I do?

-AngryPidgeon/Thor665: their discussions with each other, one of them may be right. can they both be right/wrong? Can't really get any definite town or scum reads from either but arguing over 2-3 pages this early on, I think one at least will be definite town.

AP's stance is that I'm scum.
My stance is that AP is scumhunting in poor ways.
We could easily both be wrong, also either of us could theoretically be right, or both right.
I strongly beleive I'm right and know he's wrong - but the point is for you to say what you believe and why. It's really not that complicated of a dustup.

The reason I say that is you refuse to consider anyone could be right, even when you are wrong you still think you are right. You want to always lead and never let other people who are actually making sense lead.

Have I ever played as town with you?
I happily admit to being of a strong opinion in my reads, but I hardly think I refuse to consider other viewpoints - what's your backup on that stance?

[Thor665]

You seem to have really personal and intense opinions considering a limited play exposure - why is that?

[Thor665]

@Jake - How many people are great at that? I'd be willing to bet my success rate for Day 1 lynches is better than average. I mean, seriously, Ooooh, Thor isn't right all the time on Day 1...shock.

[Thor665]

You never said what your vote was for. You voted and said 'wagon ho' and then asked me why I was ignoring the wagon. What do you expect me to think? Especially the asking me about the wagon part.

I don't need to believe in wagon to ask people their opinion on a wagon.
Also, I kind of think 'wagon ho!' is actually *really clear* as far as intent goes.

The endgames of both sides of our arguments is going to come to: "But you communicated poorly, its not my fault". And this conversation is a huge distraction from, you know, scumhunting. So lets not argue semantics and communication 101.

I'm fine with that as long as you drop the parts of your case on me based on your poor reading comprehension and leaping to conclusions.
My take from it all was to call you 'derp' so I'll actually suggest I was fairly accurate in my perception of what was happening.

What was the point of this post? Its 100% meaningless. And SD's opinion that we aren't both scum was not anything worth commenting on as that should be obvious.

I was explaining to him how he couldn't hand wave away an opinion of it, and pointed out that all variables were possible and what was important was him expressing his own thoughts. His conclusion was the default 'two people arguing, probably one town and one scum' bleh that often bites town - I didn't want it out there.

Yes, Thor, but his point is that in you/Zipper games, you haven't done anything to show zipper that you are a strong sheep candidate. So why is Zipper sheeping you? But you are ignoring that point and walking down a different path. You are an expert at starting meaningless distracting tangents. Whats the buzzword? Smokescreening? Muddying the waters?

Well, actually I could probably answer the Zipper sheep aspect quite easily myself.
Also, I'm mostly just intrigued by Jake's reaction to me because it felt like a personal attack, and now he's shifting it to an odd logic attack. Here, let me ask your opinion on it;

'He's basically saying Zipper sheeping me is bad because I have been wrong...on Day 1'

Is that really a logical basis to argue? (it might be depending on, say, Jake's Day 1 accuracy, or his belief that my Day 1 accuracy is below average...but just to say I've been wrong Day 1 is hardly an impressive call and not actually worth calling out as a specific...or is that just me? What are your thoughts?

[Thor665]

Are you asking me to answer that for Zipper?
Because, like I said above, I think I could.

Also, could you answer my question, even if you don't think it's the point of Jake, it is my point.

[Thor665]

Newbie 991 - Scum won that game, Thor got modkilled for a mod error was about to be lynched, he thought you were scum and he didn't have strong scum reads on who scum actually was.

Also, could you explain this.
I went back and looked.
My second top scumspect was scum.
My third top scumspect was the other scum.
My first was town.

I'd also called four town players town accurately.

Where'd you get your info on my suspicions?

Also, though I agree my reads were off in 1015...that is also a game showing me *actively taking in other opinions and running with them because I accepted that I was wrong'
So...?

[Thor665]

U mad bro?

Yeah, I could accept that I am to some degree. What of it? You insulted me, did you *not* want me mad?

Sure, answer away. I don't think Zipper is scum anyhow.

Zipper liked my play enough he invited me to come play in a game he modded on a different site.
I owned the scum hard in that game and did rather well in the other game I played on that site. Really, even just the invitation suggested he liked something about my play - so the sheep thought seems highly logical to follow.

Jake can correct me if Im wrong. He has 2 points. His point about you in general not finding scum D1 are troll and not impressive, agreed. And I don't think they were intended to be serious.

Maybe - if it wasn't meant to be serious it's less bothersome.
It felt serious to me.

And I bolded argue because I would argue that Jake is not arguing a case, but rather questioning Zipper's motives.

Eh - he's advancing an opinion and thumping back at me when I attack it, that's an argument - but this is semantics.

Are you trying to get me to say that Jake is discrediting you and that I shouldnt give him a free pass for that?

Considering your issues with me discrediting you and then also your issues with contradictions from D3x being obv. scummy - yeah, the difference of opinion is interesting.
Just me?

[Thor665]

If you had just said the above ^^^ sooner then you would have made a valid point explaining Zipper's seemingly scummy actions and not wasted tons of time spamming the thread. This is why you are scum.

I was never asked - Zipper was asked.
I don't answer questions asked of other people and no one thought to inquire as to my thoughts. Also, i don't have enough of a town read on Zipper that I wanted to defend him, nor did I mind the chance to see where Jake was going with the attack.

None of it was wasted time.

Want to answer this now?
"Considering your issues with me discrediting you and then also your issues with contradictions from D3x being obv. scummy - yeah, the difference of opinion is interesting.
Just me?"

@Jake - As long as you're offering your opinions of my playstyle, do you have an opinion on the counter to it I offered? What's your evidence backup/thoughts/ect?

[Thor665]

Vote me or be declared scum by AP for protecting me.

[Thor665]

What's your call on Kush?

[Thor665]

His iso is 8 posts, so you ought to be able to manage this.

[Thor665]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p4515492

[Thor665]

@DoubleJ

Unvote: Kush
Vote: AP

I don't find him scummy - now you can vote a scummy player. That should get you in the game a bit. Maybe even tell me why I'm wrong to not find him scummy?

[Thor665]

because like I said it's based on your body of work.

Like which?

[Thor665]

You even later admitted that the pressure on Zipper makes sense:

No, I didn't.

"nor did I mind the chance to see where Jake was going with the attack."

That is me expressing interest in where the attack was going, not in agreeing that it had a point.

despite that being both moot and subjective at this point.)

The mindsets of other players are not moot in my opinion.

Re Jake discrediting you: Im shaking my magic 8 ball to figure out how to respond. It says "Its different. When Thor discredits, he talks down to his opponents and appears amiable to people on his side (Zipper). Jake's discrediting was not mostly a side-effect of questioning zipper's motives. Jake was not actively trying to use it as a scum tactic against those that disagree with him."

So you do see it as discrediting but not bad discrediting.
Is it just that he wasn't friendly to other people while discrediting me that made it not scummy?

[Thor665]

Unvote: AP
Vote: Dave

[Thor665]

Jake/Thor/Dave: Read on DoubleJD?

None.
You?

Actually AP, it was because I got the vibe that it was 2 alpha towns fighting over semantics.

AP also doesn't like to admit that he was making up stuff and calling me scummy over it, and then realized it and is having to do an awkward back away where he's still calling me scummy.
Sadly that's a town tell I think.

[Thor665]

making up stuff and calling me scummy over it

Lol, yes Thor. Making up stuff. I would do that ever as town. And perhaps not 'misunderstand'. And even that never happened.

@Kthxbye: Ok, that sill makes no sense. Even if we are both town, why is it expected that we vote the same person? Clearly we have different playstyles independent of alignment, so why are you specifically commenting on how expected it is that we are voting the same wagon?

"Zipper looks scummy as hell for sheeping Thor, but that isn't much of a case" is a questionable thing to say.

He said he looks 'scummy still' not 'scummy as hell'
Does that change your read of the comment?

[Thor665]

The @Kthx thing snuck in...meh.

[Thor665]

Your 'avoiding saying they're town' tell is, in my opinion, horrendously bad s a tell.

[Thor665]

Friendly reminder. Do not give Thor any townpoints for the Dave scumflip.

Who would you give town points to if this is a scum flip?

[Thor665]

Why?

[Thor665]

I saw it as buddying neither of us, also the unsurprise to see us voting together is an odd comment that I wouldn't mind seeing explained, but I don't see how it's a functional scum attack unless Dave flips scum and we want to call it a chainsaw.

[Thor665]

Why did it twinge your gut so heavily?

[Thor665]

Odd comments are scummy because, and I ask, "Why would town-Kthxbe say that?" It looks like a really forced opinion for the sake of having an opinion. For it to be scummy, there doesn't need to be scum motivation attached to it. It not making sense from a town-mindset is scummy in and of itself.

And it is buddying. (Although you don't realize that maybe because you are scum). He replaces in and immediately says "Ha! I knew the two of you had to be town!". To the two people trying hardest to lead the town.

1. I think motivation does matter. What you're describing is sloppy play...town do that.

2. He dismissed our discussion as epeen debate, and frankly to my mind suggested it was awkward we were both voting together. He certainly didn't explicitly call us town, so this is another of your presumptions. I'll admit, I am making one too as we discuss the tell, but I think it's dangerous to make a presumption and then declare town/scum relevance for it.

@Jake - hurm.

@AP - do you have much game experience with Jake?

[Thor665]

I have town reads on both of you.

I stand corrected.

[Thor665]

@Jake - who wastes posts on non0gme relevant stuff again?

Also, you missed at least one good play aware...it's easy to miss though, it's only posted right under my name.

Vote Dave.

[Thor665]

Okay, so we should just ignore everything you say till then. Copy.

[Thor665]

Why do you keep your reasoning to yourself? I object to AP's habit of filling pages, but... nothing?

That's the best way to bus.

[Thor665]

nobody asked for your input. go away

Lovely.

He never got enough hugs as a kid - just learn to move past it.

[Thor665]

She's much friendlier than you, so I would expect that.

[Thor665]

P. edit - well only an idiot would use unreliable data for a legitimate vote so...

Are you projecting opinions onto him and then calling that scummy? Feels like you're projecting opinions.

@Dave - It was a joke, if you'd been reading the AP/Thor stuff it would make sense. Basically I'm voting you off gut. I'll admit I have no real case, I could go and grab out a couple of comments you said and then say I 'feel' they're scummy - but you couldn't debate me about them in a functional way at this stage. Move on.

[Thor665]

P. edit - am I calling him an idiot? Yes.

Are you not calling him scummy then?
I'll withdraw my point if you were just strutting.

[Thor665]

Is using unreliable info in RVS really a tell?

[Thor665]

If it's scummy it's a tell. You feel like you're dancing - why deny it's a tell when you're citing it as an issue you have for his alignment?

[Thor665]

How do you define 'tell' then?

[Thor665]

@AP - just because you fail to see the point doesn't mean there isn't a point.

@Jake - how do you deal with wifom concepts with that definition? (also, town lurk all the time...though I'll agree maybe that's not reasonable of them)
Are you saying a reasonable townie *would* use a case in RVS that he knew was weak?

[Thor665]

give me an example of what you mean by wifom concepts.

No reasonable town would lurk - therefore it is a scumtell.
Many town lurk all over.
Is it still a scumtell?

[Thor665]

Thor please explain the purpose of this line of questioning. It looks like a waste of space to me. The difference between scumtell and scummy is not a worth while investigation.

You're saying you fully understood how Jake thinks when he says something that is scummy is not a scumtell?
I didn't.

[Thor665]

While we are at it, what is your definition of a scum tell thorn?

An action that advances a situation that will benefit scum more than town.
Anything that is scummy is a scumtell.
Anything that is townish is a town tell.
Otherwise they are not scummy or townish, they are null tells.

[Thor665]

Lack of willingness to explain why someone is scum while calling them scummy for asking is also a semi-reliable scumtell.

[Thor665]

Lol? Go ISO me and tell me I never explained why I think he is scummy.

Why not just quote it for him? Also, I'll honestly admit, I know I couldn't describe your reasoning for him being scum.

So in 10 posts, d3x goes from probably town to nullish scum? Do you even read what you write?

He doesn't. He pairs that with making presumptions.
Re: the entire Thor called Kush scum debate.

Yar. Im pretty excited to see Thor's take on this.

Which? The idea Kthx is trying to distract from the current wagon?
I could see that being true - it's immaterial at this stage though.

Oh also FWIW, if thor is scum D3x is prob town. Thor calling him obviously town and engaging me in discussion about it when I thought d3x was scummy, was probably Thor's way of trying to get me to think D3x was scum.

You still don't grok how I play as scum - but you're at least vaguely closer to the truth with this basic idea. Hint: I think D3x looks like town.

He is a newish player if you look at his topic list he has only played in 2 games and they were newbie games AND he was town in both of them.

Did he do sheep RVS votes, or supported RVS votes when town?

[Thor665]

Yeah, let's lynch Dave.

[Thor665]

Vote: Zipperflesh

[Thor665]

I've been off the site for a few years... explain to me how that Hammer was proTown, plz.

Explain how it was pro-scum?

[Thor665]

Stifling D1 conversation, not waiting to hear anything from multiple player slots, Hammering before a consensus has been reached on the claim. These things are all AntiTown. I'm not saying they're scummy just yet, but they're definitely not in the Town's best interest.

What are you saying?

[Thor665]

Vote: Zipperflesh

Could you give an explanation? It's not like people aren't going to ask for it, so why just post a vote and nothing else?

Zipper knows why - note that he didn't even question it.
You should sheep me.

[Thor665]

@Thor: not questioning it isn't a scumtell. note that kthx is scum and questioned my vote on him.

[insert mock of AP's ability to read people here]

[Thor665]

what do i know , Thor ?

what are your thoughts on qwints. thoughts on jake hanging off the wagon, but continuing to make dave look bad

1. That you are scum.

2. Already said these - qwints town, Jake derp with scum leanings.

Prove that not replying is a scumtell. Or prove that it is for zipper specifically. Go. Burden of proof, Smurf ya!

Why so excited to defend him?

[Thor665]

why am i scum again

Wagon position.

P-edit: lol, Thor. We had a conversation in the past identical to this one. Why are you accusing me of doing something that you know isnt a tell for me?

We did?
If I "know" it's not a tell for you obviously I don't recall it.

[Thor665]

I read: 'grrr, I didn't want the person I was voting for lynched cuz I knew he was town and I want you all to believe I'm town but I didn't UNVOTE: in a quick reply cuz I don't know how (heeheehee)'. Yeah, that's not scummy as hell...

Why did his reply here specifically push you into a vote of him - he didn't adjust the story from what was able to be seen already, did he?

I've been off the site for a few years... explain to me how that Hammer was proTown, plz.

Explain how it was pro-scum?

You are even worse of a player than I thought. I am not saying the hammer confirms qwints as scum but if you can't figure out how that hammer would have been a benefit to scum you need to seriously reconsider playing this game.

Continued ad hom with no case?
Yup.

[Thor665]

@Jake - link the case?

[Thor665]

So you're agreeing that when you said you'd made a case that you were lying?
Is that where we're at?

[Thor665]

1. I did scan your iso - I couldn't find it. Halp!

2. So...no case then?

[Thor665]

I am happy to ignore that case.
Feel free to continue the ad hom support of it.

[Thor665]

Maybe they will, but since I think your conclusion is wrong I lean towards 'no'.

[Thor665]

So please explain how it's pro town to not make cases but call out others for the same thing. I'd love to hear you defend yourself.

Saying 'gut' is presenting a case.

I would dare say it's better and more honest then acting like a case from 400 posts ago is still the entirety of your point.

[Thor665]

Everyone:

Why do you think Rondar was killed?

Because the obv. town players have scum in them or are painfully wrong in who they currently suspect.

I was wondering why if you felt so surely on your gut that Dave was scum, why didn't you really address him very much day 1?

After your vote on him, you only made 2 posts directly interacting with him and one of them is post 325 where you say you don't have a case against him.

If I felt so sure of my gut I'm not sure why I was supposed to address him much.

But you're right, I didn't.

Mastin, can you tell me how AP is town when I have caught him in a boldface lie?

Is lying to paint someone scummy a town tell somehow?

Because AP lies and misreps all the time as both alignments?

-

Everyone: What was your opinion on that slot going into night?
What was the town's overall opinion of that slot?

1. I had none.
2. I don't think town did either.

[Thor665]

Why are these two statements to you mutually exclusive? (You said "or" rather than "and/or".)

They're not mutually exclusive, but are strategically exclusive.
Scum did it as an either/or not an and/or - I'd wager money on it.

Everyone:

What was your read on MY slot going into night?
What was the town's overall read on my slot going into night?

I had clear and strong reads off your slot's posting.
It's odd to think otherwise.

so you expect me to believe, it's pro town to camp a vote on a growing wagon, not provide any additional input, and push it along all while ignoring just about everything being said in regards to the person being run up?

You did notice the timeline of that push and my posting, right?
Keep shoveling.

[Thor665]

Thor, you answered most of my questions, but neglected to answer one of the more important ones:

Who are/were the obvtown players?

?

Zipper and AP.

[Thor665]

if by timeline you mean how you keep popping in as the wagon gets larger and urge more people to vote him? Yeah I noticed and that's a scumtell too

1. you vote him and are 2nd on wagon
2. popping in shortly after he is put at L-3 to tell me to vote Dave
3. you showing up after he is at L-1 saying "yeah let's lynch dave"

Okay, so now that you agree I never had a chance to react to the claim - which information about him should I have addressed?

[Thor665]

@Thor: werent you just voting Zipper? Why is he obvtown? Not caught up, sorry if im missing context.

You are missing context - reading th question i was answering (which I quoted) would probably help with that context.

@Thor: Once again, sorry if I missed. Read on jake, bullet points as to why?

My read on Jake is scummish mixed with anti-town mixed with troll. I don't feel content with it.

@Mastin - you scum this game?

[Thor665]

You are calling me a troll? Aww did I hurt your feewings cawing you a bad pwayer?

I already said you did - what part of 'you insulted me' did you not get or intend?

Boo hoo, need some tissues?

No, it's not really a crying with tears sort of hurt, it's that quiet internal hurt where I realize someone is just trying to get a rise out of me to make themselves feel empowered. It's the pain that has you kind of thinking about it s you try to fall asleep at night, not the sobbing in the shower hugging yourself sort of pain.

Thought I'd share this.
Dave168: 7 (Cybertronix, Thor665, AngryPidgeon, Kthxbye, k4shmasta, zipperflesh, qwints)

d3x is the scum off the wagon.

I agree that D3x looks scummy - but how do you apply wagon analysis considering the amount of lurk in thread at that time?

@Mastin - you scum this game?

Never.

Then why do you think I look scum?

[Thor665]

Lol, Thor I think I base my read on you off how much you are making me laugh.

Jake's interaction with you look a little fake honestly. Hes being abrasive for the sake of being abrasive and I dont see what is causing him to do so. He is with me too. It looks fake because I dont see what events in the thread are possibly riling him up enough to post that way.

I actually felt both you and him were nearly identical in that during Day 1 and don't draw too much of a distinction between the two of you for that particular thrust.

I think Mastin thinks you look scum because I was pointing out that you look it and Mastin is trying to

subtly

buddy to me.

I don't disagree - even more important to get his reads explained then.

Thor, how wiling would you be to vote Jake? Vote Mastin?

More willing to vote Mastin than Jake.

==========================================

Then insanity happens.

==========================================

Jake/Mastin could totally be a team >.>. Gonna say I really want Thor's input on me/Mastin/Jake ATM.

I think town/scummish/townish though it's shifting reading this all.

The moment he made the comment about me not being dead given my role I knew he confirmed himself. I wasn't the obvious NK target last night, for him to imply I was is laughable.

Who would you say was the obvious NK target?

I would have guessed Zipper, frankly.

[Thor665]

qwints turns scum, AP probable scum as well.

Linking me to a scum buddy. @Kthx, why would I vocally defend a scum buddy before Dave even flips and before he is under any pressure?

Inb4 WIFOM! No. Apply Occam's razor. Im VERY unlikely to be buddy's with qwints. (Also, Im town. Also, YOU are buddies with qwints)

I've seen you use this EXACT method before as town.
Why do you mock it now?

[Thor665]

NOTICE THAT JAKE ASSUMES I AM AN SK BUT NOT MAFIA. WHY? HE HAS NO REASON TO BELIEVE ONE OVER THE OTHER IF HE REALLY IS TELLING THE TRUTH.

This strikes me as a good point.

@Jake - why would a Vig claim need to necessitate coming from SK and not Mafia?
More importantly - if he was going for a Vig claim...why back off of it? He's still set up to make the claim, why change gears to VT if he thinks you got protected somehow?

and on that I will go to bed. If he is lynched before I wake up I will seriously be a happy person.

Hey Thor, remember you saying something similar in 1347? I do. Its posturing and bullshit. But help me lynch Mafia. SK jake has to play nightless or risk getting wagoned to hell and back.

Actually no - I don't think i say things like that.

[Thor665]

2. he backed off of it because I claimed a PR and if he continues with his line of questioning and gets me lynched he knows i will flip pro-town and my flip confirms him as scum and ensures he is lynched tomorrow. Even with his VT claim, if I somehow get lynched today I am still demanding with my dying breath he gets lynched tomorrow because I absolutely will flip what i said I am.

How does that affect him if his claim will be Vig though?

"Hey, look, he did have protection from my kill, huzzah."

Also, if he was going for a Vig claim why target you in the first place, a player he came out of Day 1 gushing and fanboi-ish about how town you were?

I could see him as scum, I suppose, but I do not see the Vig angle in any way at all unless he's a really cowardly and weak player.
Am I missing something?

[Thor665]

You're town, bro. Seriously, I get it, you are. I

know

you are.

Are you being cheeky scum here?
This feels like cheeky scum.

mastin, you realize I won't be alive come day 3 right?

So?

[Thor665]

I'm already sick of hearing that insinuation - even if you are what you claim you are it doesn't prove AP is scum.
Get over your bad plan.

[Thor665]

hey Thor, while I have some free time, care to explain how Zipper can be scum because of his wagon position yet you criticize Mastin for also using wagon analysis.

Did I criticize him, or did I ask him a question he dodged?

Also you said the most obvious NK target for you was zipper, which mean you thought he was town but the day starts and you do a 180 and say zipper is scum. (essentially what AP did)

That is correct.

how is that possible? The same wagon analysis was available to you after the Dave flip.

You mean at the start of Day 2 when I went 180 on him?
That seems...normal...?

[Thor665]

Thor - why ask the question though? you should question suspicious behavior and wagon analysis isn't suspicious

The thinking behind behavior is what I'm interested in.

and yes I mean at the start of the day, if you thought he was most likely to be killed at night why would you use wagon analysis to accuse he is scum. doesn't make sense

I thought he was the most town looking going into night.
The lack of his death paired with death of a non-slot, paired with his wagon location made him suspect.

[Thor665]

oh god. thor... now you are starting to sound like ap....

When did I start calling you names?

[Thor665]

@Mod - V/LA with an emphasis on the LA part. 12-17 I'll probably still post everyday, but my activity will decrease.

Also, i appreciate you stopping that discussion - you're my hero.

[Thor665]

1. Yeah, but if you at least would get lynched or NKed it would help us substantially more than trying to get modkilled.
2. About the same as always? You tunneled all Day 1, why not Day 3+?
3. Hurm...

It would confirm him as town as much as a town flip from you would confirm him scum.

[Thor665]

Threatening to modkill yourself--while incredibly stupid--is the special kind of stupid that can only come from town.

I am actually getting the opposite vibe from it insomuch as he kept threatening it for a long while all whilst not doing it.
I feel like it was a performance.

Who are you, Benmage?

I already guessed that.

Thor and Cyber: You're on the second-most-likely lynch for today, but I want to know how willing you are to wagon kthx.

I'm starting to lean him as town, honestly.

[Thor665]

Hi - not reading most of my missed mush.

Anyone want to give me a few sexy bullet points instead?
When I left it was still the AP vs. Jake roadshow and people were being called scummy for pushing Kush in bad ways, so I know I missed some neat stuff.

[Thor665]

Hurm.

Vote: Zipper

I'd like to lynch him or Jake.

[Thor665]

my commuter claim is legit, you may be confirmed town but you still aren;t very bright.

vote: kthx

You don't find Kthanx's claim to make sense considering your own?

[Thor665]

I think kthx is the SK

Why do you think we even have an SK?

[Thor665]

Kthx, you didn't claim your target last night, and I'm pretty sure I wasn't the most mentioned of possible targets. A rb'er is quite plausible with all the PR's we've got, but I don't think it necessarily implicates me. Checking now.

Checking what?

[Thor665]

as is Thor. His lurking through day 2 is completely what I would expect from him as scum.

What 'lurking as scum' games from me spring to your mind?

[Thor665]

@Kthx - I didn't have any idea, because I wasn't around and then skimmed.

@Everyone

Deep thought here - who thinks every scum voted to lynch Kush?
Then vote Zipper...or Jake if you think he's lying with his claim, but, meh, I'm willing to let him go second because of that.

[Thor665]

@Jake - why are you not thinking Zipper is scum?

Could you show me any scum group you believe in that lacks him?

[Thor665]

@Jake - also, why isn't AP an investigation immune SK?

[Thor665]

Where did I say I don't think he is scum?

By not voting him.
Why are you conflicted on him then, or hunting the thoery Sk first then, or whatever?

I think kthx is the SK, read my posts better ok? Thanks.

Did that happen yesterday or today?

Why the Smurf do we still think an SK exists.

If by "we" you mean "Jake" then the answer is kind of murky.
I don't think there is any "we" in the SK discussion besides Jake...and maybe you.

@Kthx - hyper town reads, scummy or not in your mind now that no cop exists?

[Thor665]

You're not doing much of anything anymore - no need to specifically cite 'sheeping' out amongst them.

I'm just wondering considering the SK theory for AP why, when he became 'town' he became a 'GF' as opposed to a 'Investigation Immune SK'
Seems pretty logical to ask, and I'm sure you already worked it out for yourself.

[Thor665]

@Jake
1. Does that mean that you being useless now means you have no place to criticize me? Don't be silly.

2. Want to paraphrase it for me? Or maybe give me some catchphrase I can Ctrl+F your iso for?

@Kthx - do you feel you're being a bit hypocritical in your response to Mastin and your statements about me?

[Thor665]

Actually, 'AP isn't the SK' works.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p4537184

Hurm...

Why aren't you voting Zipper again? For a guy annoyed at my inability to remember things I said I didn't read, you've got a desperate need to re-read things.

[Thor665]

I think I want to lynch qwints ATM actually.

Read on Zipper/Jake?

[Thor665]

Is being wrong a scumtell that I wasn't told about?
Or is AP known for being right most of the time when he's town so that this is unusual for him?

Also, if you think there's an SK then lynching wrong today is rather subjective, and if you think the game is remotely balanced then, considering the kills, this i even less likely to be mylo.

[Thor665]

@Thor: which response to mastin of mine were you referring to for the hypocritical question?

Your answer felt dancy about it - but looking at your iso I never see you dinging Mastin on it.
Meh, mis-step.

Thor, opinion on Qwints and Cyber? Kthx, opinion on Cyber?

Both are in the mushy middle.
I'd lynch Cyber over Qwints though.

52

[Thor665]

Any particular reasoning behind that one at this stage?

[Thor665]

Dave168

: 7 (Cybertronix,

Thor665

,

AngryPidgeon

, Kthxbye, k4shmasta,

zipperflesh

, qwints)

Cybertronix:

1 (d3x)

kushm4sta

:

1 (KillerJester)

KillerJester:

1 (

DoubleJD

)

Not Voting:

3 (

Leonshade, Dave168

, Jake from State Farm)

kthxbye:

3 (

AngryPidgeon

,

mastin2

, qwints)

AngryPidgeon

:

3 (Jake from State Farm,

zipperflesh

, kthxbye)

zipperflesh

:

2 (

Thor665

, Cybertronix)

kushm4sta

:

1 (KillerJester)

mastin2

:

1 (d3x)

Not Voting:

1 (

kushm4sta

)

kushm4sta

:

6 (KillerJester,

AngryPidgeon

, d3x, qwints, Cybertronix, kthxbye)

zipperflesh

:

1 (

Thor665

)

AngryPidgeon

:

1 (

zipperflesh

)

d3x:

1 (

kushm4sta

)

qwints:

1 (

mastin2

)

KillerJester:

1 (Jake from State Farm)

zipperflesh

:

5 (

Thor665

, Cybertronix, kthxbye, Jake from State Farm, qwints)

Cybertronix:

2 (Angry Pidgeon, d3x)

Jake from State Farm:

1 (killerjester)

Not Voting:

1 (

zipperflesh

)

Posting this up so I can look at it in pretty color.
Anyone who thinks I am still scum is probably Jake, so if he needs it adjusted he can do it himself.

[Thor665]

Qwints/cyber/

Thor

.

Lulz, I am psychic.

[Thor665]

Vote: Qwints

@Kthnx - you're still a Vig who hasn't managed a kill yet? How's that working out for you?

[Thor665]

Also I'm thinking today is a good massclaim day.
Any one opposed?

I'd like to do it as popcorn with Qwints starting.
Anyone opposed to that?

[Thor665]

Nah, I just know your love of tunnels.

[Thor665]

Or maybe just 'actual hatred' of me. One or t'other.

[Thor665]

ap is the correct lynch today.... if he flips sk, jakes role is confirmed.. if he flips mafia., mastin. is con-scum... if he flips town, then. jake is probably scum

Jake is already an (unfortunate) town read of mine.
I kind of feel this confirms it though.

[Thor665]

Thing is - I kind of believe him with all that. He was the only one who listened to me on Day 2 when Zipper also needed death, and followed again on Day 3 for a second go of it.
I rather suspect he's town due to that, it doesn't feel much like a bus to me looking at it.

[Thor665]

I agree cyber is probably not today's lynch but why could it not be a bus?

Anything *could* be a bus. My push on Zipper lacking clear reasoning and being based off gut and attitude could be a bus too.
The question is what percentage chance do you give it?

Look at Cyber's timing and attitude in the comments about Zipper and ask yourself if it's greater than 50% chance to be a bus. If the answer is 'no' then we shouldn't muck with it today. I think it's somewhere in the 30-40 rectally extracted number range and thus am not much for it today.
The only thing that makes me doubt it is the Dave wagon - where his position looks suspect.

Also, Kthx's position on the AP push suggests he's likely town.

[Thor665]

This seems a pretty strong position from someone who at one point wants to just "jump on the zipper wagon" and then a few posts later {his posts, not thread posts} downgrades to a secondary acceptable Lynch and doesn't look back.

So he "just jumped on" and then it's odd that he just jumps off a little later?
I don't follow.

[Thor665]

Frankly, looking at the Dave wagon, if Qwints flips town I'd be screaming for a Cyber lynch.
Meh.

[Thor665]

kthxbye: 3 (AngryPidgeon, mastin2, qwints)

Also, also, with the idea Kthx is likely town - this is a telling wagon for a Qwints=needs death case.

[Thor665]

Hold up, I must've missed this last night...

I'd lynch Cyber over Qwints though.

Why did this change? The VoteCount analysis?

Yes.

Unvote: Qwints

I appreciate that everyone wants to look town and help lynch Qwints - but I still want to have a discussion about massclaiming.

[Thor665]

So that was the extent of that push on me?
'Yes' solved it all?

[Thor665]

Scummiest player should start popcorn.
If you think you're the scummiest player then I'm fine with you starting.
I personally think it's Qwints.

[Thor665]

I may or may not have been making a funny myself.
I'll figure it out and get back to you.

[Thor665]

Now we're cooking with fire.

[Thor665]

Claim: Snuffleuppagus.

I have a soothing voice and soulful eyes.
I have no powers, but if I'm lynched or NKed people will probably feel sad.

So, as stands we are in a game with;

X-shot Commuter
X-shot Vig
Cop
Deputy

vs.

Goon
Roleblocker (assured, to my mind - either Kthx is town/SK and this exists or Kthx is scum in which case I think it still exists)
?? (SK??)

Jake as basically the only kill immunity available is highly likely town.
I think it's fairly safe to say that there's no SK, or if there is it's Kthnx.
I tend to believe Kthnx is a Vig, as otherwise town is a little weak methinks...this could vary depending on what the other scum are, but the core point being is if there is an SK then town would be drastically weak. I'll accept that Kthx might be scum claiming to be a Vig, and maybe that will be something to consider later, but it's not the move today.

So, Kthnx, Thor, and Jake are all functionally assured town (unless you're Jake, natch)
With the idea Kthnx is town I also believe this is still the smart move of the day.

Vote: Qwints

Kthnx should only shoot if Qwints is scum. There are likely two scum out there, and if they only have one kill then we're just to lylo tomorrow even if we lynch wrong and scum manage a kill.
The way scum is playing this number I'd also say I'm basically for the axe tonight - so if you have any questions for me I'd tend to suggest you toss them out now.

Both Cyber and Qwints opted to do nothing for town with their postings - scummy.
I tend to lean town on D3x.
I tend to lean town on KJ also...though I'll admit I can't remember specifically why.
If Qwints flips scum let's please consider Kthx to be town until a paranoia laced lylo, okay?

[Thor665]

Town aren't largely motivated by survival.

Have you honestly found this to be a legit tell?
I never have.

[Thor665]

@Jake - I'm thinking Kthx right now. Do you have anything for or against a KJ lynch?

[Thor665]

Kill of D3x to my mind suggests scum are either incredibly dumb, or are not targeting the more thought of as town/PRs for a reason.
You're the most suspect of that group - hence I'm thinking you probably need death.

[Thor665]

That entire post is really reactive and makes me feel like I'm right about you. If you think I'm wrong do you have any forward motion maneuver of your own?

[Thor665]

@Jake - why do you think KJ is worth lynching?

[Thor665]

Why do you see my play as a bus?

[Thor665]

This is one of those paranoia theories, isn't it. The logic is 'Thor *could* have done that' even though strategically the only reason to do so at that point was for lulzhijinks?

[Thor665]

you are just another dumb VT claim.

Yes.
So?

You had no real reason why you even suspected zipper, I mean you called him town all of day 1 and than automatically the next day you pick him as the lone scum on the day 1 wagon and you just happen to be right? seems too convenient to me.

I did explain my reasons on Day 3 - but, yes, I did go after him Day 2 off gut (and said as much)
Now, again, ask yourself - bus?

btw, if we are assuming only 3 mafia and no SK, don't we NL here?

right now it's 4:2 meaning if we mislynch we die

NL means tomorrow we are probably 3:2 and we can hopefully have a better idea of figuring out who scum is.

yeah pretty sure we NL

The only way that works is if we have no town reads.
I have town reads.

[Thor665]

Oh, I forgot, Jake doesn't think I have any scumhunting skills at all.
This might be an upward hill discussion.
Hurm.

[Thor665]

My gut says bus, zipper was obviously scummy so an easy bus target

If he was "obviously scummy" why was my vote so strange and also why didn't you vote him sooner

[Thor665]

where did I say your vote was strange?

You said I voted him with no reasons and that was why it looked like a bus to you.

Thor: why would lynching today with town reads be better than NL today?

I have never seen scum be nice enough to kill a scum read for everyone.

[Thor665]

Win or lose, KJ is the right lynch. There is nothing anyone can say positive about this slot. They have done nothing to help a town win con. If the town is slot, I'll be extremely disappointed but know its of no fault of anyone but the people who played that slot.

[Thor665]

No, I'm confirmed only scum with you now.
So...yay?
I'd still give you decent odds to flip scum, I'm just not behind this current move.

[Thor665]

@KJ - though, having you here. Who would you say is the scumteam now that you know I'm confirmed town?

[Thor665]

How am I wrong?

I just hate the language.

"I'm going to lynch this guy, and if I'm wrong then it's the players in that slot's fault, not mine!"

It's weak language, and I don't like it. Either the slot is legit scum looking to you or it isn't. Disclaimer language like that usually feels like it shows up before town lynches town because one of the town is playing poorly and it's annoying the other town. I don't want to lynch anyone with that as reasoning for someone on the lynch.

I think it's relatively safe to say scum wouldn't be bussing right at this stage.

So it's KJ/Jake (or, for Jake - KJ/Thor)
or it's Cyber/Kthx

Kthx and Jake are literally the only players in a situation where bussing could be an option at this stage. so Kthx/KJ is a possible option.
I don't think Jake is scum.

So I'm seeing Cyber/Kthx and Kthx/KJ as the decent options for the day.
Still want to lynch Kthx at this point.

[Thor665]

Can KJ/cyber be scum together?

if we think they'd be bussing right now.
I wouldn't see that as optimal play for those slots at this stage though - if scum is bussing they should have something to help push them over into the 'not going to be lynched' category while they have two town PRs and also me, who is only a suspect because of lulzhijinks and 'it's Thor' logic.

It's probably kj/kthnx.

Why KJ first?

[Thor665]

@Jake/Thor: Either KJ is scum or both me and Cyber are scum. Those are the only 2 options at this point.

Yes, we already discussed that.
The real question is if scum is bussing or not - because if we can puzzle that out (and beat Jake about the head as regards me) we win the game.

[Thor665]

Yeah, we should look at the vote counts and also actually do a glance at isos for buddy tell rule outs.
I haven't even started the re-read, I'll be honest, I'm kind of waiting for you to offer up thoughts first so I can just needle at them and save myself the effort.

[Thor665]

@KJ - I've been watching this for a while, and I'm curious about something.

You know that neither Jake nor I can be scum.
Yet you aren't voting either confirmed scum.

Why is this?

[Thor665]

I just can't think of any situation where I've known someone was scum and wasn't voting them.

[Thor665]

Regardless of alignments - that post just won the thread.

[Thor665]

Why did you call out Cyber as his scumbuddy?

[Thor665]

Dave168

: 7 (Cybertronix,

Thor665

,

AngryPidgeon

, Kthxbye,

k4shmasta

,

zipperflesh

,

qwints

)

Cybertronix:

1

(d3x)

kushm4sta

:

1 (KillerJester)

KillerJester:

1 (

DoubleJD

)

Not Voting:

3 (

Leonshade, Dave168

, Jake from State Farm)

kthxbye:

3 (

AngryPidgeon

,

mastin2, qwints

)

AngryPidgeon

:

3 (Jake from State Farm,

zipperflesh

, kthxbye)

zipperflesh

:

2 (

Thor665

, Cybertronix)

kushm4sta

:

1 (KillerJester)

mastin2

:

1

(d3x)

Not Voting:

1 (

kushm4sta

)

kushm4sta

:

6 (KillerJester,

AngryPidgeon

,

d3x, qwints

, Cybertronix, kthxbye)

zipperflesh

:

1 (

Thor665

)

AngryPidgeon

:

1 (

zipperflesh

)

d3x:

1 (

kushm4sta

)

qwints:

1 (

mastin2

)

KillerJester:

1 (Jake from State Farm)

zipperflesh

:

5 (

Thor665

, Cybertronix, kthxbye, Jake from State Farm,

qwints

)

Cybertronix:

2 (

Angry Pidgeon, d3x

)

Jake from State Farm:

1 (killerjester)

Not Voting:

1 (

zipperflesh

)

[Thor665]

qwints

:

4 (Jake from State Farm, kthxbye, Thor665, killerjester)

d3x:

1 (qwints)[/color]

Cybertronix:

1

(d3x)

Not Voting:

1 (Cybertronix)

[Thor665]

@Jake - from a glance at those, my first thought is that scum wanted to set up a Cyber lynch via D3x NK (?)
Also Cyber/Kthx seems questionable simply because of the two instances of them voting in lockstep. (Kush and Zipper lynches)

[Thor665]

How so?
I'm still jonesing for Kthx

[Thor665]

@Jake - are we both being lazy and waiting on each other to do something viable? I kind of feel that is what's happening.

[Thor665]

Okay, I'm sitting around being lazy and waiting for you.
But just so long as we can blame Cyber.

[Thor665]

Stop being bad at the game Jake, it was only funny on Day 1

[Thor665]

I have expressed interest in a Kthx lynch but have admitted to not doing the work that is appropriate to be assured of that belief.

You are also not voting - derp. Last I checked that was a good move on both of our parts.
Stop derping.

[Thor665]

You said you were waiting for KJ, and I said I was waiting for you to feel secure in your thoughts so I could discuss stuff with you.
I don't want to re-read the thread 4 times s that seems silly.

What are you waiting for Cyber for if not to do scumhunting?
If you're not doing that then tell me and we can start our discussion, but I'm not doing it till then.

[Thor665]

Jake - you are terrible.

[Thor665]

Or scum, I suppose - but still terrible either way.

[Thor665]

you haven't done anything besides post a similar vote count as I did and you reached the conclusion that kthx must be scum but you don't even really explain how your VC showed that. The VC shows KJ as scum not kthx

I actually have explain why I thought Kthx was scum.
Why do you think the VCA shows KJ as scum, and also what part of my explanation for Kthx scum do you not get/why do you think he's town?

p.edit - I'm terrible? dude you aren't doing jack Smurf in lylo. I'm done wasting my time if I'm the only one. This game isn't worth my time anymore

1. I am doing stuff in lylo.
2. You are terrible if you vote me simply due to the information you should have about who is scum already. A vote for me is a whiny vote that you don't think I'm helping you in the specific way you want me to...when I've actually been very clear about how I intend to help and on what time schedule and you literally haven't said anything about it but suddenly threw this hissy fit either as proof of poor play or as a rather sad reaction test.

[Thor665]

@Jake - here is why it is poor play.

Literally there is no one I can be scum with besides KJ.
KJ can be scum with a variety of people.
You vote me.

It was, as I said, either a weak reaction test or poor play.

I actually don't think you used the VCA to explain KJ=scum, could you quote it?

Your pause for lynching KJ makes literally no sense unless you just think I want to win and *also* mock your play more, and I'm doing the latter just fine without playing some odd long gambit for only lulz while also trying to dismantle the wagon of win and run up an alternate one.

Why do you think the VCA doesn't show Kthx as scum?

kthxbye: 3 (AngryPidgeon, mastin2, qwints)
AngryPidgeon: 3 (Jake from State Farm, zipperflesh, kthxbye)

Here's the entirety of the argument for Kthx scum.

1. For Kthx to be town we have to imagine that *no scum players* decided to vote for him.
2. Also, if Kthx is scum, the competing wagon there very much justifies him and Zipper both pushing on the AP lulz wagon which had rather poor reasoning (as I recall, this was the SK paranoia moment...and Kthx=Vig should, in my opinion, have had *less* reason to think AP was a SK, not more.)

[Thor665]

Day 1 - Cybertronix, Thor665,

AngryPidgeon

, Kthxbye,

k4shmasta,

zipperflesh,

qwints)

Day 2 - kushm4sta: 6 (MaverickMaestro,

AngryPidgeo

n,

d3x

,

qwints

, Cybertronix, kthxbye)

Day 3 - zipperflesh: 5 (Thor665, Cybertronix, kthxbye, Jake from State Farm,

qwints

)

Day 4 - qwints: 4 (Jake from State Farm, kthxbye, Thor665, killerjester)

MM/KJ was off the cop wagon
but was on the speed lynch of kush day 2 (but really had voted kush early on and parked, didn't really do anything)
KJ - definitely avoided that zipper wagon, calling him null but at one point when AP made a comment about zipper, KJ replied with "or we could lynch scum"

Day 4 -on the wagon and had no real reason to be, the reason why kj was suspicious is due to qwints hammer and nothing else.

Vote: KJ

if we aren't NL, I feel best with a KJ lynch.

[Thor665]

Okay, so going down your reasoning;

1. You think being off the cop wagon makes him scum, even though there was likely two scum on the cop wagon.
2. I will agree that likely at least one scum was on the Day 2 wagon - I would actually think the early lurk vote is a less likely scum, why am I wrong?
3. I don't get why that comment makes him scummy - clarify?
4. Could you explain the good reasons for everyone else who was voting Qwints? I don't think there was a lot of brilliance behind that wagon.

[Thor665]

Also, could you address my Kthx case now?

[Thor665]

1. That's a solid point.
2. That's a really silly rebuttal - aren't you 'just guessing' as well? If not, why not?
3. Doesn't it also show simply that he thinks who he wants to lynch is scum? By the same evidence I could say everyone who wanted to lynch Kush over Zipper is scum.
4. Actually the Dave one was a towntell, it wasn't till he hammered Zipper like he did that I thought it looked bad. But, again, you're saying everyone else voting him did so with good reasoning?

Obviously I think it's ktnx + Cyber/KJ I've openly said as much.
I've seen scum do a double push in lylo, I'm pretty sure I've been scum doing that. Both of us had expressed issues with KJ, at that point why not do the leap?
The worst I can say about KJ right now is agreeing with your point #1 and also his lack of a vote after having confirmed scum. I actually think the second point is a lot more damning.
The issue with the second point from my perspective is, if he's scum (and you'll have to walk with me on this) and I know he's not my scumbuddy, why do a lylo vote off a coin flip? It would drastically be better for him to vote the town player. That's giving me a lot of pause.

[Thor665]

1. That is being silly - the point is you're the only non-likely town player off the wagon. That is wagon analysis - it is not new.
2. Because they were *confirmed* scum to you. I don't see how it is BullSmurf.

[Thor665]

1. I'm not, but though it does happen that all three scum are on a single wagon on Day 1 it is not common. Also, no one moved votes after the cop claim besides Qwint - so at that point I'm supposed to believe all three scum were in trembling paranoia to manage to lynch...Dave.

I'm not really sold by that, why should I be?

2. Yes, if you make up a theory of how I would have reacted then my issue holds no water. Unfortunately - that isn't how I would have reacted, so you did the scummier action. The only reason people hold up votes in lylo is to avoid quickhammers. You were in a unique position to understand how there couldn't be a bad quickhammer with your vote, and decided not to vote - apparently due to fear that we would think you were biased and wanted one scum dead over another...

And, yeah, I am discrediting your play due to lack of vote tags. I think it's the scummiest thing you've done.

[Thor665]

Yes, you have accurately pointed out my issue with the tell that I had already mentioned.
I'm not sure what that accomplishes for me, you, or anyone else, but you have done it with exceeding skill.

[Thor665]

It shows that you expected me to vote the town player, implying I'm scum, had I not found a method to vote unbiasedly.

You are still really awkwardly projecting reads onto me and there is no point in there where you have actually shown a damned-if-you-do/damned-if-you-don't commentary other than the one in your own head.

[Thor665]

Yes.

[Thor665]

I hope you realize another player is complaining that I'm too lazy and probably at least one of you is wrong.

[Thor665]

Basically, yes.

The point is, and as noted, this is my perspective; if KJ is scum, he is scum with at least one person voting him and would win the game if the other person was lynched.
When pressed on the question he did a coin flip for who he would vote, and went for it.
Now, it's hardly a massive case made of win - but if I was scum in his position and was asked to vote someone when town Thor is edging to lynch Kthx and town Jake is edging against lynching Kthx then I would vote the town player of the pair, because that way I'd at least likely have *some* support from one of the other town players. If he had voted Kthx he probably could have snagged me, if he had voted for Cyber he at least could have tried to play on your Kthx=town vibe.

Instead he let random fate decide it.
I dunno, feels off.
I'll admit as I write that up your case on him is hinged on a partnership with me - but even so in that case it would be much better of him to at least try for Kthx and hope he can snooker me if Kthx is town. And, voting Kthx if Kthx is his partner is dangerous for him because if I put out a vote and then we *again* have no speed hammer suddenly the whole situation becomes a pot of poo for the scum team due to PoE alone as that would then clear Cyber as well as you, and leave me with only one scumbuddy possible, and also Kthx with only one scumbuddy possible - which would equate instant KJ lynch.

It just felt stupid to do if he was scum, and my feel for KJ as a player isn't that he's stupid - so I'm off-put by it.
Make sense?

[Thor665]

In fact, why haven't you voted for me yet Thor since you claim I'm scum?

Because I'm a nervous Nellie - what of it?

[Thor665]

Click my username.
Click on 'view their topics'
Search away, yes, I have been in a lot of lylos.

[Thor665]

I'll admit that feels like a scumfession to me.

[Thor665]

If you're not scum, you're playing incredibly stupid this game.

People keep saying that, I suppose it must be true.
Then again, I helped catch the only scum caught thus far, and did it before anyone else.
:shrug:

Was I supposed to take that emotional post as pro-town? Is that how I'm being stupid?

[Thor665]

@Kthx - most of Jake's conversation with you is nervous Nellie stuff, but I think he does have a valid point and since you think he is confirmed town you should expand on it.

Why was it when Jake voted you wanted a slow down, and when Cyber voted you went ahead and voted.

I understand the theoretical of "Jake starting is bad, because he's confirmed town" but, frankly, you are just as confirmed town in your own head as Jake is, so you were being just as rushy as he was at that point, so what was up with that? Why the difference?

@Jake - I haven't read for partner interaction comments or rule-out comments.
Have you?

If no - do you want to take Cyber or KJ and I'll take the other and we'll read them with Kthx buddy in mind and see if we get anything worth a spit?
Or would you rather wait for Cyber to weigh in first.
I'm in favor of doing the read now, I get the feeling when Cyber shows up it will not be impressively.

[Thor665]

@Jake - as we discuss partnerships and base decisions for eventual lynches on them, we should assess if the partnership makes any sense at all.

What I'm asking is if, during your 4x re-read of the thread, if you paid attention to if Kthx made sense or didn't make sense as a partner to either KJ or Cyber.

As an example of what I'm talking about;
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p4568672

The point being, it would behoove us to look at the partnerships as relate to Kthx to see if either or any make sense with him. If we can rule out one or all of them it will make our eventual lynch decision smarter.
I'm asking if you've done that (and if so, what posts stood out) and if you hadn't done it I was offering to split the workload with you and read for one partnership whilst you did the other.

[Thor665]

Hurm, okay, how about I promise to give a read to the KJ slot for any potential connections or rule outs and you give one to the Cyber/Kthx partnership?
I'll do mine tomorrow.

[Thor665]

Here's a fun one - why don't you do a look for support for the Kthx/Cyber buddy connection - since that's your scumteam of choice. See what you can dig up to prove they're the scumpair.
Jake will be along eventually to check your work, but you should finish before him.

[Thor665]

@Jake - and it's not just me, right, KJ and Kthx are actually having a competition to say scummy sounding things one right after the other.

[Thor665]

@Jake - With the current situation all it will be is a Thor=town confirmation.
There is no Cyber shift possible (or even likely for a week).

As such, you should only be nervous about it if nervous about me...and, at the same time, should really only do it if you want to confirm me. A confirmed me would be fun for me, but you're actually the only person that would make much of a shift on, as literally no one else has me in any scum pairing they are seriously selling - and even if I'm scum that means two town are totally hoodwinked and you've lost to scum Thor at this stage basically regardless anyway.

Frankly, I think I'm confirmable simply by looking at the Thor/Zipper interactions. Unless your theory is that I told him to buddy me and then hard bussed him for his troubles.



I'm doing my KJ read now.
Excitement galore.

[Thor665]

So...it's MaverickMaestro/KJ

MM/KJ paired with SafetyDance/Kthx

Not much interaction from the MM side - some slight agreements of reads with Kthx that maybe feel off for scum/scum, didn't seem to change his mind though.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p4557992
That is a really early leap to put Kthnx under the bus if a buddy - it's not even like KJ had been calling me all that much town up to this point, and he *had* been calling Kthx townish up to this point.
WIFOM will say scum being cagey and bussing early or something, but I do have to say this feels like someone reading the thread and getting honest reactions to it.

MM/KJ paired with Cyber/Dude yet to be Named

Weirdly just saw the connection between Cyber and MMs avatars just now.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p4537522
Would be surprised if this is a buddy moment - functionally lists four suspects and names both his scumbuddies? Don't think I see that happening.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p4554771
This feels an awkward interaction as well.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p4558103
Also, this opening, albeit he left himself open to shift, but he seemed to feel KJ was for the rope.

I think Kthx and KJ's vitriol towards each other feels very real.
I think Cyber and the KJ slot have had a lot of awkward interactions if they're buddies.
I think KJ/Jake could make sense as pair.
That said, since at least one of Kthx/Jake is telling the truth I also think town has at least one semi-protective role if Kthx is town, so either they're both telling the truth or Kthx is the liar.
Cop+Deputy is actually a pretty potent combo though.

I think I want to actually read for Jake/KJ now just to squash some paranoia.
But I'm still of a mind to lynch Kthx the most - he just makes a lot of sense as scum.

I'm leaning Cyber as the buddy.

[Thor665]

And confirmed.

[Thor665]

@Kthx - Now that I'm confirmed not scum, I would love to hear some theories about who KJ's scumbuddy is.

C'mon, maybe you can sell me on Jake, I'm a paranoid guy.

[Thor665]

Do you honestly think that KJ would have voted Cyber had the "random roll" turned out to be Cyber? I think not.

You honestly do not?
How would he have danced around that?

[Thor665]

...if you thought that why didn't you call him on it immediately?

[Thor665]

[Thor665]

@Jake - did you do any work on the Cyber/Kthx partnership as requested?

I'm pretty sure someone suggested that being lazy made you a Smurfing Smurfhole or something, and also a bad and smelly person.
I'm sure you smell fine, but it's just what I've heard.
And I like to potentially mock hypocrites

[Thor665]

Also, as you consider that, ponder this ponder;

We might want to lynch Cyber today.

[Thor665]

@Kthx - and as noted, I'm lazy as hell. You're saying there's no way you could see the scum team as Jake/KJ?

Why is that? I mean, a Vig, a Cop,a nd a Deputy is hardly a weak spread of town power.
Say scum is Roleblocker, Goon, Goon.

At that point town maybe has a defensive power built in via the Deputy.
Seems unbalanced to you or something? Or is Jake just bleeding obv. town in other ways I haven't noticed?