Newbie 1449: Return of the Van [Game Over!]

[hayatoBL]

Hi Everybody.

Hi TNE, I suck in the last game, but I'll do better this time.

I'll start with doing some re-read. Until I'm finished with reading, I won't be responding to anyone's question or comments.

[hayatoBL]

So this is what I have so far. I’ll read more in a bit. If the questions I posted are already answered, then you don’t need to answer them again. That means I will find the answer later as I keep reading.

Post6: TCGW is a noob. It’s his first game here. He may be faking being noob, but since this is a Newbie game, then I am forced to believe that he really is a newbie.

Post9: Why can’t there be a naïve newbie townie? But the vote is OK, i guess. Since no one else has made a "scummy" move.

Post11: I agree on this vote.

Post13: Seems like ZF is buddying a newbie. IMO, TCGW’s argument on putting a vote on ZF is a bad one.

Post14: Suddenly votes. Talk about contradicting on page 1. No. Scum bussing each other on D1 is pretty normal. Don’t trust ZF too early, please.

Post17: Another newbie. Yeay. I may have a chance to perform in this game.

Post19: Our good IC giving lessons on scum-hunting. I’m enjoying this game already.

Post20:Votes TCGW because of fake-noobing? Yeah. We have to do something about people playing the newbie cards. Or we don’t because we are in a Newbie game.

Post21: Wow. Getting L-2 for playing noob-ly in a Newbie game. Seriously? Now, both scum and newbies have to play cautiously. Instead of trying to produce new contents to scumhunt, you just agreed and sheeped? That's a bad way to scumhunt.

Post22: A wall. A good point against that vigilante point. It doesn’t proves, that you’re not fake-noobing, but I’m much more convinced that you’re a genuine noob. Congrats. Abandoning ideas quickly is a town-tell in my book.

Page 1 is finished. I’ll do some reads again in a while. At this point I would ask Montosh and Grimgroove, why they would vote on a presumably noob-faking player? Yes. Only scum would fake being noob. I agree. But, there is no way to prove that someone is noob or not. Unless you know them on a personal level. Since you won't know, why pursue scum in this direction? Leave this question unanswered, if the answer can be found in a later post.

[hayatoBL]

So, second page..

Post26: An L-1 for a fake-noob claiming! Noob-tell. Wait. Why doesn’t Grimgrove like you? You should have asked that instead of “It’s OK to find me suspicious”. Now, you are looking suspicious. But it’s OK right?

Post30: Slight townread Grimgroove for the unvote.

Post33: Everything should be suspicious to you, unless you’re scum.

Post35 to 37: I dislike this noob-faking chase, but Grimgroove is really starting the game. I like it.

Post38: Yeah? He looks suspicious? Now, you too.

Post39: Changed opinion without anyone needing to point it out. Town points.

Post45: @Cervantes. And what do you think about the people who are currently sheeping you?

Post 46: What’s this about doctor? Focusing more on about difficulties in expressing than actual scum-hunting. More about this and you’ll fall in my scum pile.

Post47: What do you know? My slot unvoted. Clap clap. I’m town-reading him.

Post49: Oh. Now I get it. Trisania feels that Grimgroove is bread-crumbing doctor because of the “Lie on the sofa” thing. Cute. I see a newbie trying her best to make a decent read.

And I realized, I did put a question to my own slot on my last post.

That’s all from me today. I’ll do more read tomorrow.

[hayatoBL]

Reads from page 3:

Spoiler:

Post50: Good lord, still talking about PR. Somebody needs to tell Trisania, we don’t do this. If this is a scum move trying to out the PR, it can’t get much more obvious than this.

Post52: Not elaborating?

Post55: Can’t one fake being innocent and indignant in a forum?

Post56: TCGW’s idea of not voting and only discussing who to lynch is a bad idea. I agree. But we all know this idea won’t be brought into action with all the experienced players around. His merely suggesting and not really executing it shouldn’t be seen as scum. If he is trying to make a statement, it could be in a line of “I’m a newbie. So, if I make a mistake, don’t be suspicious of me. OK?”

@TCGW You said
“Also, if I'm scum I likely would have conferred with my fellow mafia person who could be a pro and quite probably would have told me to not post anything that brings too much attention to myself.”

Yet, here you are as town, having this idea without someone conferring you. What I see here is, you’re trying to paint scum in a way, that it doesn’t matches you.

Already finding Cervantes’ scum partner? How about wait for Cervantes actually flip scum to do that.

Post57: Bread-crumbing PR is made both by PR’s and scum to point out later in the game that they were the PR, they claimed. But what Grimgroove said ISN’T bread-crumbing. You’ve misinterpreted.

Post59: Jumped on a wagon and then clarify it. Nice…you just fall into scum pile.

Post63: @TNE Why is Cervantes town?

Post64: What is the difference between those two votes?

Post71: @WBO What is wrong with being overly-aggressive? Isn’t that a town-tell?

[hayatoBL]

Page 4 & 5

Spoiler:

Post76: @TCGW So one of the reason you’ve said, that Trisania been ‘a bit sudden at changing her mind’ is because she claimed at one point, that she is extremely lazy, yet she had kept up so far. But that should be a good thing, right?

Post78: That’s not how you give pressure….

Post81: @Trisania What kind of proof were you expecting?

Post85: Me neither.

Post94: @WBO According to you, Montosh (my slot) is either a very bad townie or a very bad scum because of his jumping on wagons. But in the end you wrote ‘leaning scum’. Is there another reason for that, or this ‘jumping on wagons’ is more scum than town. Make this clear please.

Why is ‘using IF a lot’ a scum-tell?

You said, ‘So to be safe NULL’ when talking about GiF. If it was another player, who is playing exactly like he is playing right, would you have any reads on him besides null? If yes, please share it with us.

Post98: At the right bottom corner, there is this link ‘Activity overview’.

Post99: 1. I thought quick abandoning is town because scum has the tendency to wait for people to point things out before changing opinions. They are afraid to look wishy washy.

Post100: @Grimgroove Anti-town behaviour shouldn’t earn anybody a town read. Null-read at most. But town?

Post102: I can guess, how GiF will answer to this.

Post104: @Tristania Why don’t you just give your reads after reading the ISO. It would help, if you can explain why you feel that way, especially the town and scum reads. Thanks.

Post105: @TNE Can you rephrase this?

So, now I’m back to the present.. =)

[hayatoBL]

^It’s called agreeing.

@GiF At post 113

1) You said “Too scummy to be scum” works better on Newbie games.
2) This IS a Newbie game.
3) Yet, you agree on Grimgroove, that Visania is too scummy to be scum. How come? Or does post 117 indicates you’re not agreeing anymore?

@GiF & GrimGroove
I’m not feeling this TNE wagon. I’m pretty sure it is about him not voting after clearly showing a suspicion towards TCGW. Is there more to it than that?

[hayatoBL]

I don't like the current wagons. My own suspicions are towards WBO.

1) WBO jumped on a wagon (Post38) and then clarified it with another vote to the same person (Post59). I’m assuming this 2nd vote is to show, how convinced he is on this vote, when there is actually not enough reason to be convinced yet.

2) On Post94, WBO adds some more argument for TCGW. (says IF a lot, going over his own words). He has a weak reason to vote TCGW in the first place. GiF told him why disrupting RVS is non-alignment indicative (Post88), where he simply won’t agree. It feels like, he just want to keep sitting on the wagon.

Question:
Why do you think TCGW would disrupt an RVS to save a scum partner, while risk being targeted himself?

VOTE: WBOCampfire

@Visania. I agree with your unvoting, but you should have done that sooner on Post81.

Now, you had made your reads. But why aren’t you voting? Push a wagon, convince others to join you, destroy other wagons, see their reactions…that’s called scum-hunting.

[hayatoBL]

Putting it like that just sounds suspicious zipper, but I assume you know it would so I doubt a scum would say things like that.

But we are going to have to come to so conclusion eventually. Apparently my points on Cervantes aren't sufficiently convincing to get a vote on him today so I'll go ahead and UNVOTE: Cervantes

TNE seems suspicious to almost everyone who isn't already trying to kill me so let's ratchet up a little more pressure on him.

VOTE: thenewearth

And for those of you who might not have kept track, that puts him at L-2.

@TCGW
You have put your vote on TNE, because the players, who did not voted for you, voted for him. Surely, you have your own suspicions on him, which made you drop your vote on Cervantes.
Can you describe them to me, please? What makes you think he is scummy? If it’s the same argument as Grim’s, then just say it is the same. Thanks.

[hayatoBL]

^First and foremost, there is still 2 weeks before deadline. That’s enough time to keep pushing your 1st choice wagon.

I just dislike, that you’re main-suspecting one player, but voting for another. This is normally a scum tell. But I’m going to take this as a noob-tell, for now.

Secondly, don’t unvote and vote for Cervantes now. That Cervantes wagon was weak. You were the only target available, as he put his vote on you. It looks natural to want to vote on you at that time. I’m more suspicious on the people who sheeped on him.

Thirdly…

I don't like the current wagons. My own suspicions are towards WBO.

1) WBO jumped on a wagon (Post38) and then clarified it with another vote to the same person (Post59). I’m assuming this 2nd vote is to show, how convinced he is on this vote, when there is actually not enough reason to be convinced yet.

2) On Post94, WBO adds some more argument for TCGW. (says IF a lot, going over his own words). He has a weak reason to vote TCGW in the first place. GiF told him why disrupting RVS is non-alignment indicative (Post88), where he simply won’t agree. It feels like, he just want to keep sitting on the wagon.

I see where you're coming from here, but I mostly interpret this as newbie town. Jumping on a wagon is something your predecessor did as well and I still suspect him/you are town so I'm not sure if that's good scum indication. I agree with your interpretation that the second vote was for emphasis, and that the case against me is weak, but again that seems like general newness rather than scum newness to me.

To your point 2, he's clearly a bit stubborn (and the if complaint he makes is more than a bit odd, going over hypotheticals is a good way to show how a line of reasoning is weak), and I definitely see how this can look suspicious. So given that I don't think I'm more convinced he's scum than the other two targets, but you have convinced me to move WBO to my blue category.

Ok. I agree with you, that jumping on a wagon without stating your reasoning, can be interpreted as a newbie town. But the second vote? It feels like he’s trying to tell us “I’m not afraid to vote the 2nd time, because I’m town.” I want to see WBO’s answer to my questions.

@WBO

You didn’t really answered my question. You wrote:

@hayatoBL:
Post time is not something to be concerned about. Prods will usually take care of that. My iPod had to be taken into the shop for 2 days, so I couldn't post. The only time to suspect a paused player is when you jump on a wagon and stop posting, while I did full analysis right before this broke down. I won't countervote now, but I'll go ahead and

UNVOTE: thiscantgowrong

. He hasn't been to bad recently. I still have to read up on my days off; I merely grazed it before.

I wasn’t attacking you because of post times. My arguments are on post 160.

Questions:

Why do you think TCGW would disrupt an RVS to save a scum partner, while risk being targeted himself?

What was your thoughts exactly, when you posted that second vote on TCGW?

[hayatoBL]

@Grimgroove

You said he was ‘beating a dead horse’.

A dead horse according to who exactly? To you perhaps. The way I see it, TNE never looked at it as a dead horse. He puts up a case, TCGW defended against it, TNE finds his argument weak and push that wagon some more. In fact, after reading his newer posts, I’m more inclined to sheep him, rather than to vote on him.

@Trisania

You have made theories on TNE’s alignment. Which one do you think TNE belongs to? Scum or town?

[hayatoBL]

^Most of his arguments on post 197, 199 and 209 are valid. I especially like these ones:

1) "If I was scum then blah blah blah. Therefore, I'm town" posts. TCGW did that. This even echoes my own opinion.

2) Opportunity hop. This wagon is clearly much better than Cervantes’ with a strong player like GiF on this wagon.

3) “Secondary suspicions”. I don’t like TCGW’s response on Post 206. He still says that Cervantes is his main suspect. I ISO Cervantes several times already and I’m not really feeling TCGW’s argument.

I totally realize, that ALL of these mistakes could come from a newbie. But to which extent should we allow such newbie play? To an extent, where we forgive all of their mistakes and let them win as scum? Of course not. This game should be educational, I agree. But it doesn’t mean, that it has to be forgiving.

I know. TNE’s talking like a jerk, but his argument made sense.

TCGW’s wagon is push-able in my eyes. But TNE’s wagon? No. Not yet, at least.

Would you vote for TCGW, if this wasn’t a Newbie game?

[hayatoBL]

Let’s start with this one first. What IS a Newbie game?

And to your final question, even if everything I'm saying is nonsense (in which case I'd like an explanation as to why it's nonsense) this IS a newbie game. Ignoring the context of what kind of game it is seems like an artificial limit on what knowledge to bring to bear in hunting scum.

It’s a place where players are allowed, even encouraged to ask questions and where player’s mistakes won’t ruin anyone’s fun. It’s a place where experienced players should coach newbies on theories and point out mistakes made by newbies. In other words, it should be educational.

What is NOT a newbie game is where you give less scum points only because someone is a newbie, which I think is Grim's mistake. This way no scum can hide among newbies. If I am not allowed to scum-read a newbie, how am I supposed to catch newbie scum?

To your second point:

To 2) and 3), what part of my point doesn't make sense to you? If you have multiple suspicions but one of them seems like a more likely lynch why is switching to that one bad even if it's somewhat (at the time of switching) less convincing to me than the one switched from? I'm not switching to someone I had no suspicions of, that seems ridiculous, but I don't see a switch to a secondary suspicion given that there are multiple mafia in the game as problematic!

I was trying to educate you on Post 196. I assumed, after you learned your lesson you would either:

1) Admit that pushing Cervantes’ wagon was a mistake after all(or at least claim that Cervantes is now your 2nd choice), and push TNE’s and claim that TNE is your main suspect.

OR

2) Leave TNE’s wagon and push Cervantes’ instead. If you strongly feel, that Cervantes is scum, you should push his wagon.

Instead, you still claim that Cervantes is your first choice, while pushing another wagon simply because there are more people on that wagon. I'm just saying, this is not what we do. You can express suspicion towards your second choice, but always push your first, unless the time is running out, where we should compromise. You are not my first choice, yet I'm expressing my suspicions towards you.

For your first point:

To point

1) what exactly are you supposed to hear from me? Just saying "No, I'm not scum" seems useless, so I ran through the hypotheticals of the argument to see if they made sense. That hardly seems like something to off-handly dismiss like TNE and you are doing. If it is then tell me where my logic fails.

Those kind of arguments are weak. This is what you seem to make us believe. “If scum knew what kind of behaviours would consider scummy, they would avoid doing them. Thus, only a town player would do those kind of behaviours”

Or a scum can WIFOM. “If scum knew what kind of behaviour would consider scummy, they shouldn’t avoid doing it to appear as town.”
I hope this made sense.

[hayatoBL]

WBO’s vote moving from ZF to TNE was initially for me suspicious. But after the flip, which revealed that both of them were town, WBO earned town points. Putting L-1 on TNE with very weak reasoning (Post 232) was a very suspicious thing to do. More so, since he knows I’m watching him closely. I don’t think scum would do something like that just to move a vote from one town to another town. Unless he’s WIFOMing us, which I doubt he is.

However,

Honestly, I read thenewearth's ISO and not only is he vague and unhelpful (zipperflesh), he's also extremely annoying. Even if he turns up town (doubt it), I would still have him out of here for the sake of annoyingness. (That isn't scum, just sense.)

UNVOTE: zipperflesh
VOTE: thenewearth

Glad to join the club, and that, I believe, puts him at L-1. Thanks for the reminder, TNE.

@WBO Lynching people for the sake of annoyingness is very wasteful. You do realize, we can only afford two mislynches right?

Town points to Grim for saying that SE/IC might be scum with only two of them still playing. But only a little…

About this new Cervantes wagon... I just checked both ISO of Visania and TCGW. TCGW is going on with his “main suspect”, while Visania town read Cervantes yesterday.

@TCGW – You claim to vote for TNE for info. Do you have any you would like to share?

And..

I'm now somewhat less confident in my reads on GiF and Grimgroove as town.

Which reads you have less confident in? GiF or Grim?

@Visania – Where did Cervantes earned scum points after you town read on him at post 118?

@Cervantes – I’m not into lynching someone who plays passively. Those are null tells. So, please ask for a replacement if you don’t have time. You come again only to proddodge? Then, I will have to vote for you. No one wants to play in a MyLo or LyLo with a passive player.

@Untrod Tripod. You mean Deadline is 11/28 right?

[hayatoBL]

^ I have made similar thoughts and this is my results.

Based on which criteria would I choose my Night kill:
a) Townest player – Grim
b) Strongest player – GiF with Grim on 2nd place
c) Possible PR – Grim, he soft claimed ‘psychiatrist’, presumably doctor
d) To divert/cause suspicion …

My first thought was Grim. If I was scum, Grim would have been my first choice. Yet, this may be a ploy from scum. By sparing the most obvious choice to NK, they can make people suspect him on D2, which is happening right now. So, Grim is either scum or the target of scum’s ploy.

But ZF died last night. He was neither a) nor b). He could have been c), a possible PR. My first thought, when ZF quick-hammered TNE was, “This guy is either scum or was hoping doc to save him.” I think, ZF believed in Grim’s soft claim. At least, I did. And it’s possible that everyone else did too.

This made me think, ‘Why would scum choose to kill ZF, who could possibly be saved by a doctor, rather than to kill Grim, who is a possible doctor?’ Perhaps scum knew Grim wasn’t a doctor. But who would have known that?

Only Grim. And his scum partner.

VOTE: GrimGroove

[hayatoBL]

@Grim

Let’s dance then.

Let’s make sure this argument is moving forward. We’ll start with your defences.

Defense#1 – You never soft-claimed

That’s why people call it soft-claim: You can deny it later if you have to. Tris thought you were soft-claiming. I thought you were soft-claiming. Possibly, Zip thought you were soft-claiming. None of us can show proof. But let’s just put it out there so everyone can see.

What are the difficulties you encounter when trying to express your thoughts in this game? Lie down on the sofa, close your eyes, think of the ocean, and tell me.

Not soft-claiming? Really? With your straight-to-the-point attitude, suddenly you just want to talk about sofa and oceans and stuff?

Defense#2 – The hammer on TNE was normal not scummy.

Zip sheeped me for no reason and then quick-hammered and by doing so sacrificed 10 days of discussion time. For me it’s obvious, that he was trying to play some sort of a gambit.

Defense#3 – You survived game despite being obvtown, where you are playing town.

I don’t see this one as a defense, since I’m accusing you of being scum.

Defense#4 – Town can be wrong.

I agree with that but it doesn’t helps your case.

Defense#5 - You surviving is not an argument.
It is. You surviving isn’t likely if you aren’t one of the scum. The results of this NK is highly probable, if you are scum. You are possibly town, but highly probable scum.

Putting oneself in scum perspective is a powerful weapon for town. Then why not use it?

For my argument to be valid, this statement must be true: “You did soft-claimed”. I realize, that my whole argument against you hangs on this statement. Obviously, you’re going to keep denying that you've soft claimed. So let others be the judge. I urge others to look at that post and tell me that isn’t someone soft-claiming.

Scum reads
Grim
Tris
TCGW

Null
Cervantes
NS

Town
WBO

Questions: TCGW has been using bad attacks and defence from the start, where you and GiF townread him. You used the term transparency to put a town read on him. Why does TCGW looks scummy now?

[hayatoBL]

^@ Tris You are scummy in my eyes for:
a) You’re afraid to ruffle up feathers. At one time you clearly posted your reads on everyone, yet you didn’t vote.
b) Fence-sitting. You’re afraid to choose sides. (On the TNE case)
c) Your content:activity ratio is small. You posted the most, yet mostly it is fluff, stating the obvious or talking to the Mod.

If your response would be “Because I’m a newbie”, then don’t bother defending yourself.

@Grim

IMO there was no reason for him to believe Cervantes was scum in the first place. The way I see it, TCGW is acting like TCGW. Even now. If he is scummy today, he was pretty much scummy yesterday.

Hammer thing: But no one made any intention to hammer. Therefore, ZF’s actions were indeed strange. And you’re ignoring his sheeping me without reason.

Defense#3: Did you made any softclaim-sounding-statements in any of those games you survived?

Defense#4: Well, I can’t really say much about that TNE lynch. You’ve put your argument on why we should lynch TNE. I argued why we shouldn’t. You didn’t had time to respond to it and then suddenly ZF quick-hammered out of the blue. No. I can’t build a case on that. This quick-hammer from ZF is really convenient for scum, but let’s just continue with what we have.

Defense#5: Yeah. I realize I shouldn’t use the word ‘probable’ which indicate that I have numbers or data to support my cause. So I take those words back. Actually I meant using logic thinking, you couldn’t have survived today unless you’re scum. And yes. My logic thinking isn’t universal to everyone. That’s why I’m urging people to review this case and give input.

NewDefense#6: You love metaphors.
Please show me a couple of your using metaphors NOT as scum.

Why didn't you comment on my supposed soft-claim at the time?

I didn’t comment on your soft-claim at that time because you might be who you’re trying to claim: a doctor. I even disagreed with Tris at one point, that you were soft-claiming, which was an attempt to mess up those soft-claims.

What are the reasons for your townread on WBO?

I have explained it on Post 244.

[hayatoBL]

@ Grim
Now, I understand how to do soft claims. If I hadn’t been looking for Town Deputy’s crumbs, I wouldn’t have seen it! A good one.

Well, if you could have soft-claim so well, it would mean that you weren’t soft-claiming in this game at all.


UNVOTE: Grimgroove

I’ll reassess and put my vote elsewhere, later.

About that statement in bold: I was reminding you where we didn't finished discussing.

@IC\SE
I don’t get it. Shouldn’t one always vote with the intention to lynch? That’s why I was against 2nd choice votes.

@NS Why would you vote Grim and then unvote it, after you realized that it was L-1?

[hayatoBL]

@NS
Grim is on L-3 now. Why aren’t you voting him? And if scum quick-hammer, we can get scum next day. So what are you afraid of?

@Tris

VOTE: Trisania

a) You posted a bunch of reads on Post 118. Yet, you vote 14 posts later (your own post), which is on post 180. I think that’s fear. Fear of making enemies. You say your opinion is still ‘subject to change’. But when you vote on ZF, there was no change. You sticked to your reads on Post 118.

b) On post 210, you said TNE’s “I-don’t-care-attitude” can be both scum and town. But on post 267 you say, that same attitude convinced you of his innocence. You’re being inconsistent and I think, you were trying to get a halo-effect by defending a town player.

c) Before you voted on Cervantes, the last time you read him was a town read which was on Post 118. And suddenly, you scum read him on Post 241. Your reasons for it is:

@hayato: My town read on him "yesterday" was more than real world days ago.

It changed when he said this

:

Was away from home last few days. Catching up atm.

He hasn't posted anything since then, even short comments on the wall posts. True, he could have been really busy. But as I said, he could have requested for a replacement days ago if that was the case.

I will revise my vote once I see someone else more scum read-worthy.

Tell me. What is there in Cervantes’ post, which makes you change your read from town to scum?

@ Grim
A motivational vote? It lost its effect the moment you call it a motivational vote… Let’s concentrate on the scum reads that we have. Like, why not Tris?

[hayatoBL]

Tell me. What is there in Cervantes’ post, which makes you change your read from town to scum?

wh y dindt you ask the same question to thiscantgowong?

@Grim
TCGW didn’t vote for Cervantes because of that post.

[hayatoBL]

@fferyllt
Hi. =) Nice to have you here.
I can’t really share the suspicions you have for Grim or GiF, because your arguments were mostly from meta. Maybe when there’s less player around, I could spend more time meta’ing players.

@Tris – Your defence against my attack

Attack#1 Afraid of making enemies

Defence#1-1 There’s no wrong in voting later.
There is. Town wants discussion going on before deadline. Scum wants deadline going on before discussion.

Defence#1-2 Reads are subject to change.
So are votes.


Attack#2 Inconsistent

Defence#2-1 You town-read TNE just after that.
I know but let’s just put it here and let people decide:

...

I think TNE's "I-don't-care" attitude implies he's eithe

r:
1. Scum that still feels safe because even if you think he's scum, you haven't identified yet who his partner is, so lack of links thereof would somehow prove his innocence,
2. He's town, so he wouldn't bother to explain his innocence, or3. He's in a bad mood because of stuff happening iRL.

^a.) I didn't feel like voting because those were just initial reads and still subject to change. It was the first day, I think, so there was no need to rush the lynching.

b.) I don't think I was fence-sitting. TCGW for me was already town, and TNE didn't feel like scum to me. Zipperflesh was my scum vote. True, it was a counter-vote for his vote on me, but I stood by my decision regardless of the two more popular bandwagons. Why would I bother hammering someone I don't think is scum?

His rudeness and I-don't-care attitude on his impending lynch convinced me of his innocence.

c.) I object. True, I have fluff posts, but they're not that many. I hate posting walls; I'm too lazy. And walls of posts don't necessarily mean you're town, anyway. Scum can also post walls to appear innocent and interested in scum-hunting.

[hayatoBL]

@ Grim

The words 'at ease' 'enforcement' and 'unwarrant' are examples of your trying to soft-claim, I think. At least, that's how I see it. So, still think I was trying to buddy you?

[hayatoBL]

@Grim

Like, why not Tris?

And you didn't answer this one.

[hayatoBL]

What numbers? Those words should be it!! =)
Then, I suggest that people start soft-claiming like that. Because I think it would work.

[hayatoBL]

Anyways. How would I have failed your buddy-test?

[hayatoBL]

That makes sense. But please explain about the numbers.

[hayatoBL]

Hi. There's activity. Great. And WBO's back.

Proddodge

[hayatoBL]

@fferyllt
I like Post 324. You really saw things that I wouldn’t have seen. And I like the way you judge each post separately. I’ve tried looking for something that I could argue about but I couldn’t.

What do you think about TCGW leaving your slot’s wagon for TNE’s, while maintaining a 1st choice-lynch on your slot?

325. Category “Not very town” doesn’t mean scum right?

341. Wrong usage of 'when'. It should be “Maybe IF there’s less player around”.

@Tris

329 Afraid of appearing inconsistent is scum-tell in my book.

337 Didn’t ZF voted for WBO AND you? Why exclude yourself from that theory?

@NS – Regardless of who you’re going to attack next, I would like to hear your answer to ffreryllt’s Questions on Post350. And Tris’ on 355.

@WBO
362. Well, the mod don’t give the replacing player a new role, when he/she replaces in, so you should maintain your suspicions.

370. I’m trying to figure out your reasons on voting for Grim. Basically, he is scum in your eyes, because he tried pushing different wagons and waited people to join him. When that wagon is not working, he simply chooses another wagon. Do you think this is a good strategy to play as scum?

And didn’t he always include reasoning, as to why he started pushing a wagon and why he stopped pushing it? Did you took those reasoning to account, before you voted for him?

[hayatoBL]

@NS

380
Nevertheless, I would like you to give those retro-analysis. I have a reason, which I will provide after you answer. So, please take a stab at it.

@ffreryllt

382
I don’t think WBO is scum. WBO-scum would know that Zip and TNE were town. WBO-scum’s changing vote from Zip to TNE doesn’t make sense. He put Zip on L-4, unvote Zip and then he put TNE on L-1. Isn’t that very counter-intuitive?

@Tris

384
Explain to me, why you think I’m buddying Grim. I am unaware of it because, I’m not doing it.
To 2. It feels like you’re trying to indirectly protect yourself.

@Grim

318
You didn’t explain to me about the numbers. Please do.

391
I’m OK with this vote. But what happens to TCGW? Does NS’ scuminess outweighs TCGW’s?

407
Are you saying NONE of my points shows, that Tris is giving off scumvibes? Post 286. Post 301.

[hayatoBL]

@ Grim
410
DEPUTY! Now I get it! It was impossible for me to see that. I think the suspicions you had for me were genuine.

At first, I thought your buddy-test was too easy. At that time, it felt like, you were purposely making an easy buddy-test, so that you have an excuse to drop your suspicion towards me. I mean, who could have missed those deputy-related words ‘at ease’, ‘unwarrant’?

@ Tris
413
1. I did ask Grim partly because I was interested in it. If it was only because I’m interested in it, I would have asked post-game.
2. Well, I guess there’s no more point in arguing over that. Neither of us can prove nor disprove that ‘it never crossed your mind’.

414
TCGW or Ffreyllt might fit well. NS or WBO, perhaps. But Grim very unlikely.


Anyways, people. Deadline. Those who suspect Tris, let’s get on board.
Other wagons that I like is NS or TCGW. I promise, I’ll help push those wagon, if somebody can put any of them on L-2.

[hayatoBL]

I declare my intention to hammer NS.

Please claim.

[hayatoBL]

@Tris

426
Why am I suddenly the primary suspect if NS flips town?
And you’re right about the halo-effect.

@ffreyllt
Because scum-WBO has no reason to shift to TNE’s wagon. Was there any indication that TNE might be a PR? I don’t think so. Could WBO have foresaw ZF’s quickhammer? No. Would he get town points by making that change? I don’t see any.

@Grim

438
Sorry. I thought, it becomes easier, when I number it. I’ll change my way of posting next time.

442

I don't really consider this an argument. You attribute fear to it, and then turn the fear into something scummy.
Having an opinion that is subject to change, doesn't mean the opinion WILL change. A twig can be subject to breaking, but if the circumstances are right, it can remain rooted in the ground and turn into a tree.

Well, I can’t say much if you disagree that it’s fear she's showing. But fear IS a scum-read, isn’t it?

Inconsistency is also a petpeeve of mine, but his first post pointed out three possibilities. The problem does come with the second, but where you see someone trying to get a halo-effect, I see a newbie eager to show she's got good reads. I don't really see anything scummy behind saying she was thinking TheNewEarth as town. What is consistent and what is far more important, is the fact she didn't vote for TheNewEarth, pointing to her deciding that option number 1 of her post 267 must have been the most probable in her opinion.

There’s always a different perspective to look at things, I guess. But it doesn’t mean my way of looking at this is wrong. You’re putting forth alternate theories, but it doesn’t prove that mine is wrong nor is it less likely to be true.

Trisiana already answered this herself adequately I think. I don't think the point you brought up is bad, but it's not convincing either.

Basically she’s voting for lurkers and when they start being active again, she unvotes. And that IMO ISN’T an adequate answer. Ref: Post 289.

[hayatoBL]

@ffreyllt
WBO-scum trying to bolster the town wagon? Could be. But I just think it’s too risky.

@WBO
Instead of asking people to convince you to push NS’ wagon, why not convince others to push Grim’s?

@Grim

Not necessarily. Town don't want to get lynched either, and some people have a tendency to get nervous about it. It reminds of when I was a kid in class, and the teacher heared someone talking. She turned around, and was looking at faces in class to find out who it was. The pressure of this alone made me blush. She pinpointed me as the culprit.
Only problem: I hadn't been the one talking.

Luckily for me blushing is out of the equation in the e-based game .

Anyway, point of this story: basic emotions like fear and emberassment could be sign of dark secrets, but not necessarily. It could also be fear of someone possibly thinking you have such intentions.

And all that said, you're right, I don't see any fear whatsoever in Trisiana's posts, not even the early ones.

Ok. I think we’ve reached a stalemate here.

Maybe, but the point is that they are theories, as opposed to arguments. Your theory is a possibility, but when looking at the arguments, based on objective facts such as Trisiana's non-voting on TNE during Day 1, you'll see it doesn't point to your theory being correct (or relevant, because even if you'd prove the halo-argument to be correct, it's very similar to your fear-argument in that it's rather null alignment-wise). While it still can be correct, I don't see much reason right now to think it is.

If Tris DID voted for TNE, then I wouldn’t have this theory in the first place.

Take a look at fferyllt for example. She's known to wait a very long time before placing a vote. She posted 48 times without voting, before putting her vote on NS very recently.
Why was this not a problem for you? Why did you not interpret that as fferyllt not wanting to make enemies?

I didn’t know that fferyllt is known to wait a very long time before placing a vote. I just don’t see how an experienced player could make an ‘afraid of making enemies’ mistake. I see that as an ‘only a newbie mistake’. And comparing to the other two brand newbies (WBO and TCGW), Tris is the least aggressive, which reminds me of my first game as scum recently.

[hayatoBL]

@Grim

401

What are examples of scummy intentions? And I dislike the fact that you’re saying you can’t present them in bullet points. Try to present them to the best of your abilities.

Tris seems to understand your soft-claim method on that other game and because of it concluded that you were not fake-PRcrumbing. Ref : 277. Yet you’re only suspicious towards me and gave that buddy-test to only me. Why suspect only me of trying to buddy you, but not Tris?

@Tris
You said TNE was town because of his ‘don’t care attitude’. Isn't NS also showing a ‘don’t care attitude’? If he did, why are you treating him differently?

@ffreyllt

I have about 50 completed games at MS. In the majority of those games I didn't put votes down quickly, but I have put down non-RVS votes as early as page 1 or 2 in a few games. I vote when I'm ready to vote, and I vote for someone I want to see lynched. Until both of those conditions are met, I don't vote.

‘Someone you want to see lynched’. Not someone who you think is the most scummy?

@NS

Don’t forget to claim. If it’s a VT. I’m definitely hammering.

[hayatoBL]

^I smiled when I read that. That was more of a question on theory than scum-hunting tbh. I was wondering, perhaps there are other reasons to lynch somebody as town.

[hayatoBL]

Last theoretical question, Isn't deciding on a compromise lynch that late in the game, may lead to lynching an unclaimed PR?

[hayatoBL]

@Tris

I’m really liking this NS wagon right now. I’m turning off the heat from you.
UNVOTE: Trisania

@Mod Can you please re-post that search for a replacement for TCGW. Thanks.

[hayatoBL]

@ffreyllt

Today, I am thankful for the deadline extension that allows me to spend more time this weekend on my WBO case.

I am also thankful for lots of food.

See you tomorrow!

It's the day after tomorrow.

In other news, hayato's apparent complete lack of paranoia about me is making me a little nervous.

I’m going to interpret that as “Why are you not suspicious of me?”.

^hayato is tunneling me. So it's less likely he'd notice anyone else unless it's hammer time.

He's noticing me, and he's interacting with me. He's probably addressed me directly as much or more than Grim has. The thing that pinged was how quick he was to say in essence "that's not what I meant, I wasn't suspicious of you. It was a theory question."

You’re misrepping me here. I already expressed on 467, that it was an honest theoretical question. Hence, I admitted it and was pretty amused that you responded it in a very defensive manner. Though, I noticed that my post could be seen as an attack, after you responded.

How did that post indicate that I have little (or none) suspicion on you?

Why are you expecting town to be suspicious of you?


My reads on you are hazy. Your arguments seem sound, which doesn’t really indicate much since you are an experienced player.
Both of you (ffreyllt and Tris) jumping on that NS wagon after I promised I will help push that wagon is suspicious.

Two times (on post 444 and 485) you expressed, that you want to pursue WBO, but not really doing it. That could be an attempt to seem like scum-hunting, but not wanting to really push that wagon, because it is clear most of the players town-read WBO.

Why the need to express that for the second time on 485? It feels very out of context.

On the other hand, you asking Mod to extend the time, seems townish. But if NS were to flip scum, then it would seem scum-partnerish.

^I figured PR claims are more likely to fail, since there's a risk of drawing out the actual PR and having the claim challenged. Scum would have to be really careful on what role to claim. I'd rather claim VT if I'm scum.

On another note, I checked Grim's wiki. It's interesting to note that out of the 18 personal games he finished, he was town-aligned in 14 of them. And only three mafia-aligned games. So it's highly likely he's town here. Though the roles are random, it appears that the odds are with him 77.7778% of the time.

A scum player who's one vote away from hammer often decides to see if they can lure a PR out of hiding by fake-claiming.

The odds of him being town in this game are exactly the same as the odds of anyone else in the game being town: 7/9 or ~77.8%. It looks like his actual town/scum ratio is approximately that.

So, why do you think scum-NS postponing his role-claim and reads?
I think, if he’s scum, he’s waiting someone to somehow stop this wagon and direct suspicion to someone else before making his appearance. And I’m very interested in this someone and somehow.
If he’s town, then this move is very anti-town. Or there’s something I’m not understanding.

[hayatoBL]

@WBO

Please point out, which questions of mine could lead to the outing of a PR.

[hayatoBL]

@ffreyllt

Why are you, a new-ish to MS player, not suspicious of me - a player whose style leads to body of work reads - and those take time to tilt to town, especially among new-ish players.

Suspicions lead to questions about stances, votes, lack of votes, etc. Until this post, you haven't questioned me about stance, votes, etc.

I have a certain amount of suspicion towards every player in the game. Towards some greater than others. Though, I prioritize and choose which argument, I would like to present. My way of posting should already indicate that I spend only a fixed amount of time for MS. Thus, the argument which I think is more important comes first.

I had a disagreement with you about your move towards WBO. Besides the WBO case, the NS case and other case which include a lot about meta mainly about GiF, I don’t recall you having any other case which you strongly addressed.

My trajectory on NS is pretty solid IMO. My vote was drawn by the deadline approaching. Now that it's there, I'm leaving it because NS is dragging his heels.

Your trajectory on NS is as solid as on WBO IMO. Now that you’ve voted for NS, it just seems like there was no (or a weaker) trajectory on WBO.
Are you denying this?

You didn’t vote on WBO to apply pressure. Maybe applying pressure would work. According to your meta, you vote on someone when you want that person to be lynched. Why not be flexible about it? Why must you follow your own meta?

[hayatoBL]

@ffreyllt

You didn’t vote on WBO to apply pressure. Maybe applying pressure would work. According to your meta, you vote on someone when you want that person to be lynched. Why not be flexible about it? Why must you follow your own meta?

I don't follow my meta. My meta follows me.

Exactly. That is the problem I’m seeing in you. You had suspicions towards WBO. You questioned him. He ignored you. I think, in that situation it was clear a pressure-vote was necessary. The way I’m looking at this, a suspect can elude you by ignoring you.

So the answer to “Why aren’t you putting a pressure vote?” is, “That’s not your meta.” It feels like in this case, your meta is giving you some convenience and allows you to not pursue a case without arousing suspicions.

It feels like you’re taking advantage of everyone thinking “Hey, ffreyyllt is not vote-pressuring WBO. But that’s a non-alignment indication for her since it’s her meta.”

Case on Tris.

IMO, Tris avoids ruffling up feathers, which mirrors myself in my first game playing scum. Her vote on the passive-Cervantes and then unvote you seems like someone who is afraid to make enemies.

I haven’t really dive into partner-reads. If Tris flips scum, I might have more suspicion towards…

(SD)TCGW. They suspected each other early Day 1. After Gif puts that transparency read on Tris, TCGW dropped the case and since then they town-read each other.

[hayatoBL]

@ffreyllt, Grim

Hold it. Why is there the need to voice out our plan B? Isn’t it much better to keep scum in the dark?

Let me give you a scenario.

Let’s say, we make a plan B and agree to lynch Player XXX(who is by chance the scum partner of NS). NS would know, if he fake-claims PR in this situation, his scum-partner would get lynched and if somebody counter-claims, he will get lynched the next day. Knowing this, NS will probably claim VT, get lynched, but save his partner in the process. So, by making our plans early, we miss the chance from this, well, ideal situation.

So isn’t it much better to make our plan B, after NS claims PR? Or is Plan B just a fancy way to ask for reads on all the players? If so, then carry on.

[hayatoBL]

My first hammer ever.

VOTE: NobodySpecial

[hayatoBL]

Hi fake cop. I’m THE cop.

1st Night investigation – Cervantes => innocent
2nd Night investigation – SD => innocent

SD is confirmed town, WBO is confirmed scum. I’m going to start with ISOing WBO for more info. But for now, I’m thinking a WBO-Grim team makes more sense, unless WBO-Tris team could have guessed Grim is either VT or Doc.

VOTE: WBOCampfire1104

I’ll make more substantial post on the morrow.

[hayatoBL]

Hold it right there.

So, the fact that Tris is not quick-hammering means Grim is confirmed scum.

Let me first read what has happend.

[hayatoBL]

Black and white, huh, Grim?

@Tris & SD
I'm not sure how do you play cop. But this is how I played it. I chose my night targets based on the amount of info I have on that player. Cervantes was playing lurky, hence. We had the least info on him. Thus, I investigated him. We had little info on SD on D2. I investigated him the next night.

I'm not a fan of reading wiki, so I just played with my own logical reasonings. If I were to suddenly put Cervantes on my town-reads without any reason wouldn't scum immediately noticed? There was no reason to let people know, I knew about who is conf town. So as long as Cervantes/Fferyllt didn't show any signs of getting lynch, I would keep a null read on him/her.

Fferyllt replaced Cervantes and that was very awkward for me. FFerrylt noticed I wasn't showing suspicions towards her. I'm not going to say "Actually I am cop, and I know. That's why I have no suspicions towards you.". So, I fabricated those suspicions towards fferyllt. I don't think my attacks on fferyllt would derail that NS wagon, so I brainstormed and provide the "suspicions" necessary to satisfy fferyllt.

I see no point in outing myself, when I could try to survive. An ideal situation would be, SD and fferyllt alive Today. Three conf town against 2 scum. Instead we have two. And convincing you(Tris) is going to be the problem. Please question me. ISO me and tell me where it doesn't fit.

[hayatoBL]

@Tris.

Look at the situation we're in. Me and SD were suspicious of you. You were suspicious of me. Think. Who would benefit the most? Regardless of which and how many PR's we have. If me and SD have BP and Tracker for instance, Grim and WBO would use your suspicion towards me to get me lynched. Try and think about this carefully. Don't put your vote to quick. I'll be ISOing WBO and Grim in the meantime to provide you with more proof.

[hayatoBL]

Yaaaayyy!!!!

[hayatoBL]

Well done Tris.

Be honest. Did you thought I made a mistake with the targets of investigation?

[hayatoBL]

Well done, Tris and Hayato!

Thanks fferyllt! & thanks for suspecting me on D2.

[hayatoBL]

Yes.

Well played scum.

I think if you hadn't rush that vote on me, things could have been different.

[hayatoBL]

Yes.

Well played scum.

I think if you hadn't rush that vote on me, things could have been different.

I didn't rush. In normal circumstances, the thing I pointed out is considered a scumslip and it's no use to wait with voting then.

But there's no point in rushing your vote, right? You could have waited for my explanation before voting me. Your rush vote shows that you forgot about a Tris-WBO team. And that kinda confirmed SD that WBO-Grim is the scum team.

[hayatoBL]

http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/wZr7aJ4Jvih

If anyone's interested. Tris accurately guessed WBO having cop, but we went with fferyllt anyway.

[hayatoBL]

Well there's a first for everything, first time voted wrong in lylo.

Pretty disappointed, my initial post d3 with strike out showed I was already suspicious of WBO's claim, he came out of the block too fast and sounded planned. The Doc claim just helped point to this. Then Grim came in, posted his speculation and only hours after placed his post and decided to argue. WBO's involvement in the thread showed why he was PR still alive in lylo.

You were also not playing anything like in this game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p5369798 Grim. For someone pestering me to not ignore teams, you added nothing to why Tris could be scum, which was the only logical conclusion fypov if I was town and Hayato was scum. then you voted quickly. Also it can't be considered a straight up slip especially since you IGNORED his interactions with Ffery as well, you can't just post a quote and say it's black n white. All it does it make you look like you had your mind made up so quickly, thus distrusting you. That case wasn't anywhere near convincing enough, if you were putting more suspicion onto Tris, I wouldn't be thinking you were just setting it all up for a Haya/SD team, which FMPOV was wrong - and why would town be doing that?

Well done to the scum team, you tunnelled each other exceedingly well. Glad I did put that vote on at the end of day 2 at least

Maybe the day would have been different if we didn't have a constant lurker in the game too.

Thanks SD. And I'm very happy to be the first one to make you vote wrongly in lylo. . That is my biggest achievement in MS so far.

I was very surprised to see Grim voting me. I was expecting the both of you to see my "investigation-slip" either as the truth or as a trap. I expected that both of you will discuss about it and hopefully one of you will believe my cop-claim. But, I never foresaw Grim thinking that as a slip. If both of you saw that as a slip, then I have made a very silly gambit. Luckily for scum, you thought hard about it and considered the possibility, that I was WIFOMing as cop.

Of course, our victory wouldn't be certain, if it isn't for some town-issues. ZF's quickhammer and NS playing lurky contributes greatly in bringing scum to D3. Without them, maybe we wouldn't have survived this long. I still wonder why the two of them did that.

WBO who KNEW I was scum stood aside and let the two other towns do the arguing. If he had been actively helping, it might be different. He was just plain lazy.

Anyways, I had my fun. Now is the time to try a different game. I'm going for a Normal game. Let's register and have more fun...

[hayatoBL]

I'll also say that with less than 2 days to deadline, I feel like if NS is scum he could be waiting it out before posting (and maybe fake-claiming) so that town doesn't have a lot of time to consider what to do.

Also, let me tell you right now: Nobody Special lurks.
I guess his quest as an IC is to make people familiar with the concept of a lurker. Not perfectly sure how that is helpful, but that's what you'll be getting. His promise of catching up "in the late afternoon" and then dissappearing for a couple of days is perfectly normal behavior in his case and a null-tell. Good luck figuring that one out but when you find yourself at a loss of clear scumreads it's Always a good idea to put your vote behind his name.

Even as scum, I can be very paranoid. These two posts for instance.. I read it and thought that it was a trap. Tell me, was it really you giving your opinion or did you post that with the intention to see how people would react to it.

[hayatoBL]

Yeah but hayato's counterclaims did NOT match his in-thread play. And WDO's did. That's a huge hell-no to me because especially newbscum don't usually set up a fake claim well from the start of the game, and also aren't that great at

picking through their earlier stances to piece togather a narrative after the fact

.

But I was doing just that. I realized that I have failed to provide suspicions towards you on D2. So, I pretended to have fabricated suspicion towards you. So, basically, I faked being a cop, who "had an 'innocent' investigation on you and was forced to provide suspicions when you promted me to do so in order to survive the day".

[hayatoBL]

You left no crumb about me though. I'm probably not the best person to give lessons on crumbing, but a cop needs to leave something unambiguous but subtle about their investigations. Something that scum will miss but will be

obvious to town after the fact if you die without claiming

or if you claim and town have counterclaims to sort.

Hmm...what kind of crumb could serve as that? How would you have done that, fferyllt?

Grim has taught me his soft-claims. But that can only work if he is alive to point to those soft-claims.

[hayatoBL]

Scum-paranoia is a thing. You'd be amazed at all the stuff I find to be paranoid about when I'm scum. :/

My post wasn't a trap, and I thought Grim's question was a good one, and that he was mostly trying to figure me out.

I felt like the game was basically missing an IC at that point. I posted a lot more general strategy and tactics info than I usually do, though I tend to get a little pedantic in newbie games.

The comments about me being a waller amused me until I ISO'd myself. I have a longstanding reputation as a somewhat terse player. I've been doing more quotestripe cases recently, though, and even if my own content is pretty short about each quote, the post itself becomes pretty long. I prefer to play mafia in conversational mode rather than leaving a long reply for people to go through piece by piece a day or two later, but I've adjusted somewhat to MS realities.

I skimmed over Grim's post. I thought it was his Plan B post you were talking about.

Now I'm not sure why you thought that could be a trap.

Because it felt like he's observing whether Scum would react to that. Maybe If I were to vote for NS directly after he said that, he would point me as scum.

No it's earlier than that. Early D2 I think.

[hayatoBL]

hey, thanks for the lessons. I'm playing with you in the next Normal game. I hope I'm town in that game. Played scum two times in a row. Playing as scum is damn tiring. Not only you have to "scum-hunt", you also have to becareful with what you say.

[hayatoBL]

@fferyllt:
Thanks for the compliment!

@Grim:
I knew that too, but if hayato had been lynched D3, I would have opted to keep WBO alive. I'd kill you instead, because at least WBO suspects SD.

Trisiana and Hayato both played well, especially during the first two days, but normally would have ruined it for themselves during Day 3.

Hayato's counter-claim was too sloppy. The narrative of "pretending to suspect someone" is just nonsense and shouldn't have held up, no matter how arrogant I am.

Trisiana's claim was not bad, but could have gotten him into trouble. Claiming a VT in his place would have been a better choice I think. If WBO would have died during Night 3 suspicion would definitely have been cast on Trisiana for that, but keeping WBO alive was not an option either.

I agree with you Grim. I knew it was sloppy before I posted it. But I don't think not fake-claiming would make our situation better. If I didn't fake-claimed, then Tris and I would be conf-scum in SD's eyes. Now, that is ALOT worse then only me being conf-scum in WBO eyes. SD is much more experienced than WBO. If he knows for a fact, that Tris and I were scum, then who knows what he would have done to get us lynched.

So, whether to fake-claim or not to fake-claim was out of the question. The only question was, as which PR should I fake-claim and who should I target? I have thought ALOT about that. And none other makes more sense than the one fake-claim that I have presented. What would you have done in my position, Grim?

[hayatoBL]

There was something I meant to add to this reply and forgot. If scum can't find a PR on day 1 (and it can be difficult in the setups where there is only one PR), the next best target is someone you think a PR may investigate, because you can hopefully cut down on the rising tide of cleared/semi-cleared town that way.

I didn't see that as part of their strategy for targeting Zipper in the QT, but it was an unintended benefit and something to actively think about in future games where they draw scum.

I understand the why, but I don't get the how. Why kill someone who may be investigated? To kill conf town before the next day, thus render the cop's investigation useless. I get it.

But how do we do that? Isn't the target of an investigation the preference of the investigator? To know who would be targetted by the cop, we need to know who the cop first. WBO-cop would investigate ZF on D1. But TCGW-cop would perhaps investigate Cervantes.

[hayatoBL]

But seeing that WBO investigated ZF on D1, scum was really lucky to kill ZF.

Otherwise, scum would have three conftown on D3.