Machina Mafia (Game over!)

[Netherspite]

VOTE: Courier New

I prefer Tahoma.

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Wisdom is town.

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@nether, why?

Gut.

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Wisdom is town.

Actually, he already claimed scum.

Oh noes, I got caught already

It's not looking too good for him right now!

You are making up reasons to cast doubts on him out of RVS jokes.
My vote is no longer RVS vote.

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Scum make scumclaims much more often than town. Your join date suggests you should have been here long enough to notice this trend.

I do not agree this is a trend.
Scum scumclaims in RVS just as often as town does.

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@Super Dupondt Bros

I disagree with the category massclaim idea.

• scum receivers can claim being a PR to make town waste their receivers' night action
• scum on the other hand will know who their receivers should target to get valuable information for hunting the machinist
• scum will have possible machinist slots list narrowed down by excluding the PRs

[Netherspite]

I'm in the midst of grading and finals and reporting, so I won't really be around until Tuesday after work, but I wanted to quickly clarify as I very loosely skimmed. Nacho will probably pick this up and actually interact about it when he gets off work, but until then:

We discussed and disagreed with the idea of a massclaim. We think that it's best if we get two sensors and two receivers to claim, and we're planning to be one of those that claims. If we have two of each claim that means that the receivers can do their job properly in targeting an actual sensor. The machinist will know of a couple of people he CAN target to give role from the jump heap and who won't die, and if a scum sensor claims, the machinist could just act like a vig and kill one of them anyway.

Regardless, Nacho will probably make this sound way more smart and everything because he's got more time and he had this whole thing about the receivers? being the people that are important. I think because they're the ones who can get the roles from the junk heap, so no more than two of those should claim.

Anyway our plan is just two of each, not more, not a mass claim, that's not a good idea, but two of each sensor and receiver will help at least a couple of us coordinate and help the machinist do his job more effectively.

I'm going back to grading.

What can prevent scum receiver from claiming a sensor?

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If a receiver targets them but gets no result. there can be blocks, sure, but it's still be more likely that it was a lie than that.

What would prevent a scum to claim being a receiver and having no result on other claimed sensor/emitter D2 to achieve a mislynch?
They can always later say "oh I must have been roleblocked then"

scum receivers can claim being a PR to make town waste their receivers' night action

We are not worried about this. We expect there to be no more than four or five sensors and emitters, with many more receivers. Even if one scum falsely claimed to be one, it is probable that all the real ones will be targeted anyway by multiple receivers each. Scum would not benefit from this, and the false claiming scum would inevitably become conspicuous by never giving any results. On the contrary, receivers are far more likely to waste their actions if we don't claim, and sensors are more likely to be unheard if we don't claim.

Why are you even assuming there are less sensors/emitters than receivers?

• scum on the other hand will know who their receivers should target to get valuable information for hunting the machinist

What information would that be? We cannot think how any sensor results would directly lead to the Grand Machinist being exposed.

I meant that scum will know who really is a sensor/emitter and won't target fake sensors/emitters wasting their receivers' actions. They will certainly benefit from the night action.
It may help finding the Grand Machinist in case targeted sensor will out him by his night action.

Yeah, I'm getting a scum-read on snarky now that I read his iso.

VOTE: Snarky

Also, please don't think of this as an OMGUS. His reasoning behind it (using unfinished metagame) sucks.

If there was a Jester possible I'd be sure you are one.

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Stairway to the Abyss

vs

Minami no Hana

felt TvT.

Firebringer

is meh.

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Did I say he's conftown? Nope. No writing him off. He just seems ez to push which sets off alarms.

^ This

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Almost 20 pages while I was sleeping. Really?
Catching up took me like 4 hours.

1. First thought:

Firebringer

seems to be trying to lurk out mild suspicion he had on him in the beginning of the game.

2. I've checked the rules and it seems that scum have daychat in this game.
I had a crazy thought while reading that the

Titus

' spam and

Imperium

's 'attempts' to stop it could be actually a pre-discussed scum tactic to achieve the following:

• distance from each other
• get the
  Titus
  to both direct lurkers' & attract active players' night actions to herself for some reason (scum could benefit from it depending on her exact role)
• flood the thread with not only the original
  Titus
  ' spam but also with the following argument between her and
  Imperium
  regarding that spam

That's just a crazy theory, I'm not valuing it high at the moment, but it could explain some things well.
May be will get back to it later.

3.

I had never seen scum no action but once. It had only happened in really small teams.

In my modding experience this happens equally often with both scum and town.

4.

@Titus

Actually your idea of attracting lurkers is faulty if you're town when I think about it because scum will just kill you off and everyone who visited you will have nothing.
However, it is unclear from the role PM examples whether receiving/sensing/emitting will fail if the sensor/emitter dies. Game rules state that it won't cause night actions to fail unless stated otherwise but role PMs specify that actions may fail for some reason without stating why exactly they would fail.
Regardless, everyone targeting you will leave the town with way less information that they could have if they would target different players.

5.

hi im Yakko

really feels like opportunistic scum. He does not give me "too scummy to be scum newbtown" vibes like I get from the

DiamondSentinel

though.
Thus, I'm leaning scum on him.

6.

Courier New

got few townpoints for some of their posts and then lost all of them due to OMGUSing.
Got some townpoints back for #846 though. I think I'll keep my vote there for now.

[Netherspite]

We suspect there are no roleblocks in this game. There are several things that suggest this. First, roleblock is already included in the scum factional kill. Second, roles were assigned before alignments. Third, there are no roles other than receivers, sensors, emitters and the Grand Machinist, and we can't see how roleblockers could work there. We could imagine a negative utility roleblock emitter similar to the protection emitter in the sample roles, but there is no way it could cause the scenario you described.

Actually yes, seems that it's highly unlikely we have a roleblocking players here.
Someone mentioned roleblocking earlier and it messed up in my mind, I thought it's possible for some reason.

Why are you even assuming there are less sensors/emitters than receivers?

For the same reason we assume vanilla town to outnumber power roles.

I do not agree that receivers = VTs in this game.
It all depends on the amount of receivers/emitters/sensors and on the PoV.
You can view receivers as the PRs as it's actually them who will get the effect of sensors/emitters. It's them who will learn something at night from sensors. It's them who'll gain bulletproof vest/whatever from emitters.
The game may work well with both receivers outnumbering sensors/emitters and vice versa.

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@Titus

Well, if you're town...
Help me lynching

Courier New

then.

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Depends on the flips.
So far I'm leaning scum on him as I said.

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I think I said I am V/LA but whatever man.

My bad, didn't notice.
What do you think of

Wisdom

? of

Courier New

?

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I was saying Nether was OMGUSing. Are you as bad as Titus at comprehending?

Wait, what?
They voted me for me voting them and I'm OMGUSing?...

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I was saying Nether was OMGUSing. Are you as bad as Titus at comprehending?

Wait, what?
They voted me for me voting them and I'm OMGUSing?...

They definitely didn't vote you for voting them.

Also, your post doesn't look like they are your top suspect (it looks like yakko is a higher scumread), yet you're asking people to vote them.

I thought I made my thought process as clear as possible, seems it's not.
I am scumreading

Courier New

since the beginning of the game and my vote is lying there for non-RVS reasons for a long long time.
Their "reasons" to vote me looked like made up BS excuses to OMGUS. You're free to disagree but that's how it looks for me. It felt so fake that it reset townpoints I gave them for some of the previous posts.
They avoided taking any stance in any of the fights and just outright claimed their

only

scumread is coincidently the only player who scumread and voted them.

I'm leaning scum on

hi im Yakko

and I've expressed it multiple times. The only reason for that read is their opportunistic votes and it is definitely a more weak read than on

Courier New

.

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Well, being wrong does not make you any less town.
Hope you'll realize that you're wrong before you mislynch someone.

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Titus

's alignment will be sorted D2.
I don't think it's any smart to lynch her today.

Courier New

is way more promising to flip scum.

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@Wisdom

So I'm a scumbuddy of someone you want to policy lynch and who you don't really scumread?
This does not make sense.

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VOTE: snarky

When you people want to lynch actual scum, come here.

Convince me he's scum.

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Nether has a good chance of being scum. He's tunneling on a RVS vote with crap reasoning and has done basically nothing otherwise.

There was a good reason for that vote to become non-RVS.
I'm all open to be convinced on Snarky and Firebringer though if you have a case.
I still want to work with you because I still believe you're town.

[Netherspite]

Go buddy someone else.

Lol your ego is so huge.

No, you don't get to discredit what we're seeing in your play with a simple repeated "OMGUS". pie and I individually found your posts scum-motivated, and pie further presented multiple of the shared reasons we had for that.

What exactly felt so fake about it that it negates everything else you've given us "townpoints" for? From what I remember you've been townreading most of our posts besides the ones expressing scumreads on you and Stairway. Looking over pie's articulated case on you and even trying to see it from your point of view if you were town, there's nothing about it that looks out of the ordinary for town expressing a read. This isn't even as biased as it would be were I reading my own post, because pie compiled that, not me.

And as I said before, it's 2015. OMGUS as the wiki and various other outdated sources like to analyze it doesn't exist as a primarily-scum move anymore, anyway.

Not done.

I'm never wasting time on self-defense.
As to why I think you're scum, I started doing so NOT after your OMGUS vote on me, it was way earlier.

===

Fully caught up now, updating some of my reads:

Void Protectorate

- I like him for town after his catchup. Not completely sure yet though.

1234567890

- Moved from null to slight town lean.

hi im Yakko

- Gains more scumpoints and the scum lean on him worsens.

DiamondSentinel

- This one is tough. On the surface it screams "improving newbtown". Looking deeper however makes me think he could be well faking all of it.

Courier New

- My scumread on them slightly slightly reduced.

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Woot, finally I don't have to read 20 pages when I wake up!

===

At page 32, gonna stop for the day. I have a wall of stuff. I'll be back tomorrow later in the afternoon.

Wisdom seriously posts a ton and says next to nothing. 209 posts, and only a handful that are more than just one line or one short thought. Less than 10. Is this his meta, or is he trying to spam for the most posts?

I can see

SnarkySnowman

being scum now.

===

As of

1234567890

, I'd like to see more

ika

's posting to figure them out, but seems it's not going to happen... Which makes me sad.

[Netherspite]

From my experience of modding games with

ika

participating, he hates rolling scum and lurks way more in such games.
So I believe this can be used as a scum tell this time.

Ranger

's posts looked rather like scummy excuses than like a genuine reaction.

I still would prefer to hear something from him before making a final decision on the slot though.
Also

Courier New

is still scum.

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I don't have notable experience with

Ranger

so I'm not sure I can read her but I didn't like her latest posts: there's nothing besides self-defense. Her slot became my #3 scumread after

Courier New

and

hi im Yakko

.
Since no1 interested in lynching

Courier New

today, I'll join the

1234567890

wagon if it will be needed closer to the deadline.

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Not believing

Minami no Hana

a single bit.

Lets imagine she's saying the truth and she's making receivers who target her supersaints.
Would she or GiF say "targeting me is suicidal"? Suicide = killing yourself. Becoming supersaint != killing yourself.
This does not make sense.
The only reason to say that would be to make scum avoiding targeting their slot. That would make sense.
But would it make sense to reveal their true role later then? Nope. Not at all. Scum would avoid targeting someone who said that targeting them is suicidal at all costs. Scum wouldn't risk it. Revealing the exact role is thus anti-town and just plain stupid play for a townie.

My #2 scumread now.

[Netherspite]

BUT one thing I did want to point out is something that Titus did point out and that was it was odd that ika didn't jump about the setup. I mean I think that he's getting less mass claimy early like he used to be, but still set up cracking is something that he likes to do, so just being like oh if imperium wants a massclaim they should start it was meh.

This one is not alignment indicative imo as he seems to be trying to crack the setup regardless of alignment.

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Imagine you are a serial killer who redirects kills. How stupid would be to claim kill redirector and expect scum to leave you alone? Well, Sakura claimed it.

And that's just a single example. She just can't keep her roles to herself.

Well then it shouldn't be alignment-indicative.
Still weird tho.

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IIRC you used to be able to catch ika because as scum he wouldn't call for masslcaims and the like whereas as town he would. However, from what I've noticed in some recent games, as town, he's not been so devoted to early mass claims, so that isn't as concerning, but it is also especially concerning that while people were setup specing and making plans, his only response was a "if imperium is interested in mass claim they should start it", though we don't want a massclaim in the first place.

In the recent games

ika

is starting the mass claim as scum as well.

Where is he trying to crack the setup?

From my experience with ika one of the things that interests him in games, especially ones with mechanics, is figuring things out. He prides himself on being able to figure out people's roles from small crumbs. Now in this game he's still be able to do that regardless of alignment because of the nature of the game, but the fact that he didn't hold any interest at all in coming up with a plan that town could use the setup to win is concerning.

He's not trying to crack the setup, that's the point.
He's usually trying to crack the setup and starting a mass claim regardless of alignment so absence of those things is not alignment indicative.

[Netherspite]

It's somehow a scumtell to

not want to be lynched

?

For me it is as long as you only care about your own survival and not about finding the scum.
Town wins by eliminating the scum, not by surviving.
There's no point in surviving if you end up being endgamed and lose.

But the statement I've done nothing except self-defense is wrong. Quite the opposite, I have been pushing Wisdom, Stairway, and Imperium (side of Firebringer) as scum in my posts continuously...including right now. I'm pushing them with these very words, trying to get Stairway lynched. I'm not going to lie, though. I'm not going to make up new points when the points existing are the same as the ones that have been there and no new points exist, merely points that reinforce the existing ones. So that's why I'm not quoting, say, every Wisdom post, or every Stairway post. Because nothing changes, and I don't mention something unless it's relevant.

Coincidentally these three players happen to be in the beginning of your wagon.
So it can be a self-defense performed via counterattack.
While I may see

Imperium

+

Stairway to Abyss

being scumteamed because of their interaction regarding the spam, I find it unlikely.
Can you take each one of them and list the reasons you scumread them individually?

[Netherspite]

Yeah, exactly. And getting mislynched takes us one step closer to that endgame. My lynch is not a scum lynch, thus scum aren't eliminated. My lynch is a town lynch, therefore taking us closer to being endgamed. I very much have been scumhunting: raising points and giving reads. But that scumhunting means nothing if it's ignored.

It is more helping achieving town wincon if you focus only on pushing your scumreads instead of wasting time on self-defense.
Survival of one townie means close to nothing for the town victory. Finding one scum means a lot.
Scum, on the other hand, has nothing to do except self-defense and attempting to look town. That's why self-defending is scummy. I know, some people disagree with me but that's my opinion.

Can you take each one of them and list the reasons you scumread them individually?

And people wonder why I repeat myself! I did this in 1173.

Yes I've read that. I thought you can add something.
Out of these points I can semi-agree only on

Imperium

.
For

Wisdom

and

Stairway to Abyss

you provide no arguments besides preflip associatives, "he's scum because he's scumposting" and "she's scum because she's spamming" which I find not enough to strongly scumread someone.

[Netherspite]

Reading through these posts and re-reading linked ones takes time so I'll go 1 by 1.
Summary of your (and

ika

's) arguments for scum!

Stairway to Abyss

is:

• their argument with Wisdom is SvS
• your meta read on LQ (that his play here feels similar to Suikoden)

Other posts are mostly restating these points or just saying that they are scum.
You claimed that spam contributed to the scumread but it was not basis of the read.
So, since there were no other arguments, it seems that the basis for the scumread was your meta read on LQ & associative tell with Wisdom (that their discussion is SvS)? Nothing else?

[Netherspite]

Also, while I'm getting through it, could you explain why do you townread me?
You mentioned that we have similar reads and similar thoughts but I remember exactly one such thing we agreed about.

[Netherspite]

@1234567890

Summarizing your case on

Wisdom

:

• Preflip associatives with
  Stairway to Abyss
• Spamming the thread
• Courier New
  's point that "his play is designed to egg on conflict or some sort of mob mentality".
• Blaming
  DiamondSentinel
  for repetition while repeating himself.
• Leaving himself an out for the case you will flip town.
• Refusing to push
  Stairway to Abyss
  while pushing you as a counterwagon.
• Courier New
  's points about his early scumposting.

Well, this is at least something compared to the case on

Stairway to Abyss

.
Still, I find it not very convincing. I can see some of the points while other points feel contrived and made up for the count.

[Netherspite]

Attempting to dictate where the game flow goes? That's

Wisdom

regardless of alignment.
Being hypocritical? First of all it's hard to distinct who of you two was hypocritical; besides that, he explained the difference between your repetition and his repetition.
Preparing for backpedal? That's confbias, if he's town there's nothing wrong with that post. If he's scum, well, yes, that's preparing for backpedal. Yet it doesn't mean any1 will even consider that post when will re-evaluate him tomorrow if

1234567890

will flip town.
Causing chaos? There was a bit of that but I wouldn't say there was something really messy with the game because of him.
So, I can see all of this giving him some scumpoints in total, but I wouldn't outright call him scum based on that.
I have gut townread on him and this case doesn't make me scumreading him.

[Netherspite]

This is the OPPOSITE of the truth.
Scumtells cannot exist without towntells.
Towntells cannot exist without scumtells.
This is fact.

A scum player scumslips by not knowing the name of the town.
You agree this is a scumslip. You have said it was a scumslip, for a scum player to not know the name of the town.
You therefore are saying that a player, as scum, did not recognize the name of their opposing faction.

A town player townslips by not knowing the name of the scum.
You, for some reason, say this is not a townslip. This does not add up, because it is a player, as town, not recognizing the name of their opposing faction...which is something that, above, you recognize as a scumtell.

So tell me.

Why is it a scumslip to not know the name of the town, yet NOT a townslip to not know the name of the scum?

This argument is invalid.
The difference between those two cases is

town has no incentive to fake scumslip

while scum has all the incentive to fake townslip.
Thus, scumslips are generally way more trustable.

[Netherspite]

Also, while I'm getting through it, could you explain why do you townread me?
You mentioned that we have similar reads and similar thoughts but I remember exactly one such thing we agreed about.

I'm starting to think that, contrary to your claims, you actually didn't read 1173. I explained it there. I also explained it in another post. (I thought 1181, but no, that's Courier New and Spiffeh. I explain

somewhere

that I thought your reaction to page one was incredibly town, though.)

I've read this post. I've summarized the reasons you're stating for townreading me in that post in the quote you made.
The only reason you stated is that we think similarly and I made the points you made. I remember only 1 thing we agreed upon and that's really not enough for a strong townread.
I don't remember you expressing that you thought my reaction to page one was incredibly town.
What was it? Why was it incredible town?
I only remember gutreading

Wisdom

as town there. You feel it's incredibly town?

[Netherspite]

I'm on page 78 atm but feel like I should share that before I finish my catch up.

If

Courier New

really has that role he claimed (emitter making receivers targeting him supersaints) then he has all the incentive to ask to be vigged by GM instead of lynched.
Being lynched = 100% death.
Being vigged = depends on GM identity who can be lurker or not sharing the opinion that

Courier New

is scum.
If they survive the day they will be targeted by all scum receivers thus effectively making all them supersaints. Even if we lynch him tomorrow it won't change.
In that case

1234567890

is likelier to be town though (or he's just less useful to the scumteam so they decided to sacrifice him).

I believe

Courier New

should be lynched today.

[Netherspite]

He didn't say anything about supersaints, that was Minami's role.

Oh. Yes. You're right.
Still catching up btw and currently at the point where

Courier New

suggests to lynch them for the similar reason I stated. Despite them not being that role.
I'm confused.

[Netherspite]

Fully caught up.
All I can say for now is I'll definitely move a vote to secure a lynch in the end of the day phase.
As of who I'd want to lynch today I need to think more.
All of this is really confusing.
We have 2 claimed useful-to-scum utilities and one of them is definitely surviving thus scum will most likely target it even if we kill another by lynching or vigging. Unless the first one is lying and I don't see the point for that unless they both are scumteamed.
I'm missing meta knowledge of

Marquis

to judge over this crazy performance he did. I need to think. Will post later today.

[Netherspite]

So, I tend to think that all this AtE with self-voting and stuff could be coming both from town and from scum. It's WIFOM and hard to distinguish.
Thus, I'll stick with my vote since they were my #1 scumspect before all of this started.
I'll switch to

1234567890

close to deadline if it'll be needed to secure a lynch.

[Netherspite]

Hmm, I think this self-hammer is definitely a scum move. I expect a scum flip.

Courier New

seems to be trying to 'fix' their partial claim by full-claiming and providing a plan for the town to reduce the negative effect from their role.
This feels town.
However, I'm still not sure they're town. This can well be done by scum for the towncred.
I believe some sensor who can somehow help with detecting alignment should be targeting them to figure them out.

[Netherspite]

So, I'm not so sure about

Courier New

anymore.
Also

Wisdom

being town makes me happy for detecting his alignment correctly and unhappy at the same time for losing that powerful town player.

VOTE: Firebringer
I think that's the best vote for now.

[Netherspite]

Apologies for our absence, our time has been increasingly occupied by Christmas preparations. We have managed to keep up though.

We seem to have arrived at an opportune moment. We did not think the bickering about whether to lynch Numbers was very interesting, but the switch to Courier definitely is.

This reaction from Marquis is pretty extreme, and frankly we don't see the scum motivation for it. His frustration with Wisdom could have been faked, yes. Offering himself to be executed by the Grand Machinist in addition to the lynch, not so much. Think about the scenario where Numbers is lynched and flips scum. Obviously that would look bad for anyone who defended them, like Courier. It could be bad enough that he could possibly get lynched tomorrow.

Possibly.

Compare to the scenario Marquis has presented us with. Instead of possibly being lynched tomorrow, he would either be vigged or confirmed as scum today for no benefit. It would make even less sense for scum Marquis to do this if Numbers is town. He did not have to do any of this. He could have simply shut up, let Numbers hang and take his chances tomorrow.

We're pretty sure Courier is town after this.

Oh, we got prodded while writing this post.

@Titus: I have a huge problem with this post. I want to see if you can see what I'm seeing here.

-Bulba

Actually one part of it looks like a slip.
First he says that

if

numbers will flip

scum

then CN will look bad and probably will be lynched next day.
Second he says that

if

numbers will flip

town

then "it would make even less sense". CN could just "shut up, let numbers hang and take his chances tomorrow".
Chances on what? if numbers would flip town, CN wouldn't look any bad for that. It looks like he forgot his own assumption that they flip town and is talking about the case they'll flip scum again. Like he knows they'll flip scum anyway.
May be I'm reading this wrong or smth tho.

[Netherspite]

I'm going to sheep my townreads voting my weak scumread since I don't have really strong scumreads at this point anyway.

VOTE: SnarkySnowman

[Netherspite]

I don't understand why you find our play today scummy, shoot: if you think Courier New is not scum because they were attempting to suicide while Numbers was being lynched, you're making the assumption Marquis expected to die. I disagree.

I disagree as well.
I don't believe he expected to die.

[Netherspite]

Couple of good points,

Imperium

.

Courier New

is back to moderate scumread for me as being a counterwagon to a scumwagon is not enough to compensate all the other scumpoints.

Also,

@Courier New

At the end of the D1 you were so concerned that you should die. Why did you just "forget" that now when you're not under the fire anymore?

[Netherspite]

Can you clarify what points you thought were good?

Sure.

1. Weird and unconsistent reasoning for defending the

1234567890

's slot:

Yesterday while several of us correctly identified that numbers was scum, based in part on the ika scumtell which Ranger made even scummier with her excuse for it, Marquis claimed that we were misrepping the ika scum tell. He then tried to corroborate Ranger's take of why ika wasn't around by first saying that he thought that ika tried to stay away from games that were toxic, then later saying that ika likes to focus on one game at a time. When we also pointed out that it was also a problem with Ranger's posting he basically gave a nonread and pushed against Wisdom. He admits to Wisdom that he's not really town reading Ranger then was like lol my Ranger reads suck, but that doesn't make sense when he claimed that the big reason he hated the ranger was was because "fuck this mob".

2. Meta: In a game that just finished

Marquis

have seen how

Ranger

reads his scumbuddies but didn't realize what's

Imperium

is talking about like he wasn't reading him at all:

NOW mafiaception is over, he's seen Ranger as scum, he's seen how he reads his buddies, he should recognize what I'm doing there but instead he made some vague inference about my play which doesn't actually show any indication that he read my post.

3.

Marquis

wasn't really expecting to die. He was more AtE'ing and attempting to gain towncred because "scum would never do that":

I don't believe for one second that he actually believed that the Grand Machinist was going to vig kill him yesterday and anyone calling him town off of his antics are just buying into what scum who do things that seem counter to scum behavior do. Have you ever seen a vig kill someone who asks to be vigged? Because I haven't. But I have seen scum be "willing" to be lynched or vigged for the town. They almost never are because scum would be more survivalist. I can see scum throwing up chaos though as two scum are being wagoned.

4. There was no signs of

Courier New

being concerned about their role being dangerous for the town before their wagon started growing:

Can you explain why there was not one peep about his horrible role and him needing to die before we started pushing him? IF he actually thought his role was so horrible and he needed to be taken out why wasn't that brought up especially when the whole conversation about Hana's role was brought up? There were potential setup discussions, people talking about how best to use their roles, debates over whether there should be some sort of claim. But there was absolutely no response from either head to any of that, not even a response to Hana's claim brouhaha. Why not? And why not, if his role is so terrible that as he says later when being pushed that it's a role that should not make it to night, that it wasn't brought up before?

Addition from me: they aren't concerned about it now that they aren't under the fire anymore either.

5. Completely ignoring those who visited him despite saying that no town should do that:

OH that reminded me, in that post you think is so town he says no town should visit him. We have two people who targeted him last night. He's not even looked in their direction. That bugs me as well and doesn't really do anything to make me think that yesterday's behavior was anything but an act.

[Netherspite]

Next, Snarky swapped from a wagon that wasn't feasible to the counterwagon an hour before Numbers self-hammered. This doesn't seem like a scum move to me: taking a move that links you so closely to your partner is only worth it if you have a real chance of actually successfully defending them, and that sure as hell wasn't the case here.

There's also this read switch that was huge: I don't think there's much of a disconnect between not suspecting someone but finding their behavior to later scumreading them; more importantly, I don't see why Snarky as scum would choose to swap his read on CN there unless the argument is that he forgot and that is a stupid argument.

Didn't you made a good point in your case against

Marquis

that "scum wouldn't do that" is a really weak argument because scum would do that exactly because someone will say they wouldn't.

====

Happy New Year everyone!

[Netherspite]

@hi im Yakko

1. RVS vote feels weird for you? Please...
2. I never said I am scumreading

DiamondSentinel

.
3. I had a weak scumread on

SnarkySnowman

before his wagon even started so why wouldn't I sheep my townreads on him?
4. I didn't vote

Marquis

because I'm still not sure. I think I'd like his lynch as much as

SnarkySnowman

's.
5. If several scum would be on

SnarkySnowman

's wagon I'd expect him to be lynched already because there were many scumreads on him and it's way easier for the wagon to get through if scum are helping it.

You make no sense.

[Netherspite]

@hi im Yakko

You make no sense as in your statements are invalid.

[Netherspite]

@hi im Yakko

Weak scumread supported by a ton of scumreads from my townreads is essentially a moderate-to-strong scumread. Ain't that logical?

And yes, I don't see why scum wouldn't put him back at L-1 if he were town.

@Imperium

While I partially agree, I think that new scum players are often underestimated.

Btw, why are you pushing for

The Random Encounter

's lynch first if you have so good case on

Marquis

and literally no case on

The Random Encounter

?

[Netherspite]

UNVOTE:

To avoid derphammers before

Antihero

catches up.

[Netherspite]

It's aight, I'm almost always getting mislynched, got used to that.

Anyways, the list of people I'd compromise lynch today is [SnarkySnowman, Marquis, Firebringer, hi im Yakko].

[Netherspite]

so you always have a weird obsession with one player over the course of a hundred page game?

If you mean

Marquis

then it happens, yes. I don't really see them flipping town in this game. Well, it's possible but very low chance.

[Netherspite]

Intent to hammer in 2 hours or so, when I'll be going to sleep.

[Netherspite]

@SnarkySnowman

You keep just posting BS instead of doing anything remotely town.
Evading the claim request like hell.
OMGUSing your wagon. You have like... 4 suspects on your wagon? While we have just 3 remaining scum? Do you really believe all the scum would jump on your wagon?
I don't see this slot flipping town. Like at all. On the 0 to 100 scale where 0 is mod confirmed town and 100 is mod confirmed scum I'd rate you as 99.
Lets make it 100.

VOTE: SnarkySnowman

[Netherspite]

Sensors do not know the results themselves.

[Netherspite]

@Super Dupondt Bros

Why didn't you target a claimed GM?
There was a high chance scum would want him dead + there's a little chance town receivers would visit him so this leaves us only with scum & town sensors/emitters who would visit him.

[Netherspite]

(though if LLD could confirm that she did indeed receive the role that Kagami said was removed from the junk pile just to double-check would be nice.)

She did confirm it somewhere on previous pages.

[Netherspite]

VOTE: hi im Yakko

Sheeping my townreads by voting my scumread.
Will everyone hate me for that once again?

[Netherspite]

town going for the same "oh it looks bad" inaccurate scumtells + scum going along for the ride

Suggest some better scumtells.

[Netherspite]

Also, there aren't words for how much I hated nether sprites hammer post yesterday.

And what was so wrong about it?
I'd do that again.
I really believed he's scum.

[Netherspite]

I don't hate the action, but voting Yakko because he disagreed with the Titus plan is fairly disappointing.

I'm not voting him because he disagreed with the

Titus

' plan.
I'm voting him because for me at this point

Titus

is conftown (may change later but chances are low) and I trust her to use her strategy.
I'm rolecentric/setupcentric player like you said. I believe clever usage of game mechanics helps a lot and that's what

Titus

is doing. In the beginning I was afraid that she could be scum deceiving everyone - she's strong at that. But I fail to see scum motivation in what she did so far at all. So she's conftown for me and not just a conftown but also a clever conftown.
(Yeah I realize people will say I'm buddying here and scumread me for that, Idc).

My two personal reasons for disliking the hammer were firstly, that your confidence sort of came out of the blue: I don't remember you being a strong Snowman lynch driver before but suddenly there was a hammer and you were 100% convinced, which doesn't exactly feel genuine to me. My second is that you hammered thinking he was very solid scum and didn't at all worry about getting supersainted, and I am a little surprised that you forgot about it despite being a decently role-centric player.

It's easy to see the development of my scumread on

SnarkySnowman

if you ISO me.
I'll list the key points though.
At the beginning of the D2 I had a weak scum read on him, but later it became way more strong because of the arguments listed by other players (like

SnarkySnowman

's reaction to the

1234567890

's wagon, etc.)
I still was expecting him to do something towny and didn't want to hammer.
But he failed to post anything towny, kept evading the claim requests, OMGUSed his wagon...
I couldn't see him as town at all. I don't know how is that possible for the town player to play like that. Well, seems it's possible...

The second point is interesting.
Believe me or not, I really forgot about supersaint danger.
However, even if I wouldn't forget it I'd be more scared to hammer if I were scum if anything. Because scumteam is already lacking 1 member so dying so stupidly would hurt the scumteam a lot. You may argue that only scum would receive supersaint ability, yet considering how terrible

SnarkySnowman

was playing I wouldn't be surprised if he did receive the supersaint ability as town.

@Super Dupondt Bros

Why didn't you target a claimed GM?
There was a high chance scum would want him dead + there's a little chance town receivers would visit him so this leaves us only with scum & town sensors/emitters who would visit him.

What in your mind makes Firebringer a higher priority for scum to target than Marquis?

From a pure game standpoint I don't understand why scum would want Firebringer dead. He's been pretty much anti-town so far which only benefits scum as a distraction.

Marquis role would benefit scum much more assuming they have a receiver as they can receive the abilities and shut the hell up.

I really don't understand Nether's thought process on that.

Scum would want

Firebringer

die because he claimed to be a GM.
We don't know if he's lying or not but if I were scum I'd definitely go for him N2 because I'd know he's town and I wouldn't see why would he lie about being a GM.

Also, why scum would kill

Marquis

?! I don't get your point completely.

===

PEdit:

@Imperium

Yeah sometimes it happens that I'm too busy listening to myself. Guilty in that.
Still, I don't think any arguments provided for town!

SnarkySnowman

were any good.

The problem with having 4 suspects is that it was seriously worsened by them all being on his wagon which is not the case for

DiamondSentinel

.

[Netherspite]

Netherspite - How did you miss me pointing out yesterday AND today that Snarky was giving reads on people on his wagon. It's called scum hunting your wagon, you know that thing you're supposed to do and often get crap for if you don't do it. He was pointing out who was most likely to be scum on his wagon.

Also, when did you start just following your town reads and stop thinking for yourself. Is this something you've been doing as town?

1. Scumreading 4 players on your wagon and noone else with 3 scum alive is outright stupid and survivalistic.
I do scumread for survivalistic attitude. I consider self-defense stupid and useless for town.
Pointing out who is most likely scum on his wagon would make sense only if it was 1-2 players, not 4.

2. I'm usually thinking for myself as town and doubting others' reads and ideas.
This game is different though as I'm trusting

Titus

like I never been trusting any non-confirmed by Mod player in a Mafia game before.

[Netherspite]

You don't read what you're replying to.
Please go read the post again as I've already addressed all your points you're raising.

[Netherspite]

I did read. I disagree with what you are saying.

Where was he survivalistic and in self-defense mode. And you've been playing long enough to know those are not blanket scum tells. I'd accept that reason from you last year. I will not accept that reason now.

You never addressed why it didn't even catch your notice that Diamond sentinel had four scum reads instead of three.

Saying that you trust someone does not absolve you of thinking for yourself. Please point me to a town game where you did not think for yourself because I think a lot of things can change play style wise, but the ability to think for oneself is something that I think will be omnipresent. You are not trying to find scum you are playing follow the leader.

So you've read it and missed the key point of it?
Calling 4 people scum with 3 scum alive is not a serious scumtell or something.
Calling 4 people on your wagon scum with 3 scum alive and lacking any other scumreads is either ridiculously stupid town or raging scum.

Survivalistic attitude is a scumtell for me, it was a scumtell a year ago and still is and will be.
You may disagree and we can argue all the game day long about it but I won't change my mind on this. You can even consider it a scumtell on me and vote me, Idc.

No, I don't have any other games where I was sheeping someone that bad. And it's unlikely I'll do that in future games because it's an incredibly rare case that I trust someone that much.
If you want to know my own scumreads, well,

hi im Yakko

is within them.
Other ones are

Marquis

and

Super Dupondt Bros

.
Nulls with a slightest scumlean are

PeregrineV

and

Vampirate

.
Others are townies of a varying degrees.

[Netherspite]

@Nether So let me get this straight. Survivalism is a scumtell, but so is Suicidal Insanity? (e.g. self-hammer, saying "fine, then lynch me") Talk about mixed-messages

Depends on details.
Suicidal behavior usually observed from the raging town or scum faking raging town.

Marquis

' case in this game is kinda different because he explained it with his role being very dangerous for the town. Overall it felt fake because the period when he expressed that 'surprisingly' coincided with him being wagoned.

Survivalistic attitude may come from town, yes, but it's anti-town in its essence so for me it's a scumtell and I expect a player expressing it to at least stop doing that and start actually scumhunting.
Not scumhunting his own wagon (because it's still survivalistic) but scumhunting in general.
Expressing thoughts that may be useful for the town after your mislynch. That's what I expect from survivalistic town when I point that out. If a player instead keeps self-defending (and OMGUSing) and does nothing else I consider it scumclaiming. This may be wrong in some cases but overall that's correct.

[Netherspite]

Fuck it, I think it will help the neighbourhood at this point.

I saw SDB, Yakko and DimondSentinel visit CourierNew/Marquis night one.

Wait this is not possible.

[Netherspite]

Nevermind, I'm wrong.

[Netherspite]

I've just mistaken something. Nevermind.

[Netherspite]

I don't think there are any other roleblocking mechanics.
Most of the players have already claimed.
Very little room for something unexpected.

[Netherspite]

VOTE: DiamondSentinel

I have a lead.

[Netherspite]

Why are you voting

Vampirate

then?

[Netherspite]

Fine.
I trust

Lady Lambdadelta

on this for today.

VOTE: PeregrineV

However,

DiamondSentinel

is still scum.
And no, I'm not revealing it yet.

[Netherspite]

You better submit your action right now then.

[Netherspite]

Yeah shit I've voted him because I'm going to fake some result which my target won't confirm
You're so funny.

[Netherspite]

SDB targeted Void.
Void was visited by SDB and DS.

[Netherspite]

@DiamondSentinel

I don't think scum!SDB would do that considering he knew he'll be received & he knew your townflip would incriminate him.

[Netherspite]

He doesn't have motivation to do what you claim he did.
You being the killer makes much more sense.

[Netherspite]

No he should have received Voided.
He wasn't assigned to Vampirate.
It doesn't clear him though.

[Netherspite]

Those feels when you think Netherspite is scum.

You felt that all the game long.
And the previous game we were playing together.
And I expect you to still do it after DS scumflip.
Some things never change

[Netherspite]

HOLY FUCKING SHIT SPIFFEH! I WAS ASSIGNED TO VOID.

TITUS SAID BORK, AND I ASKED IF THAT WAS VOID AND SHE SAID YES.

It doesn't change the fact only SDB and you were visiting Void and it makes no sense for SDB to kill him as he knew he'll be received and outed as the only visitor most likely (or one of 2 visitors).

[Netherspite]

How about this. Have Firebringer implode SDB and then lynch me tomorrow if town

Nether, NOTHING SDB HAS DONE MAKES SENSE.

He's confirmed watcher though.

For SDB to be scum, Nether would have to be scum (made up result), and one of PV or LLD must be scum.

That's 3 scum alive. 2 scum are dead. Setup says 4 scum. Your theory requires five.

SDB literally cannot be scum. It's impossible.

There are actually 3 scum alive.

[Netherspite]

@Titus

He's not mathematically eliminated.

Him being scum is really unlikely and I wonder why DS pushed on him instead of me.
However, I rather expect it to be caught scum than town.

[Netherspite]

Firebringer, implode SDB today and we lynch PV. Do this and confirm me as town, or else I'll be forced to use drastic measures.

What will you say after he'll flip town?

[Netherspite]

@DiamondSentinel

And after I'll flip town as well?

[Netherspite]

Then there is serious fuckery going on. But I am not scum. Wisdom never doubted it, Titus has PMuch never doubted it. Nobody with sense has doubted it.


Ok, fuck it. Spiffeh is 100% last scum. We know there is scum in our hood, and lo! And behold, Spiffeh is in the hood.

Where you got that stupid idea from?
He's town.

[Netherspite]

@DiamondSentinel

You are behaving like a caught scum.
Who else will you call scum?

[Netherspite]

Titus why the fuck would scum Nether risk doing this shit?

Zero fucking choice.

You make no sense.

[Netherspite]

No, I'm not. Go see Day 4 of Metal Gear Solid Mafia. That's me as caught scum.

I was shown to have tracked someone untraceable, and I didn't claim that, so I was proven scum. I simply acted clueless. That's my scum game. I will overact my usual VI-ness. I got the idea after AvF.

Self-meta is a terrible argument.
You claim you never change your playstyle?

[Netherspite]

@Titus

Are you his scumbuddy?

[Netherspite]

Actually my lead on DS was a reaction test (I didn't receive SDB). And by his reaction I believe he's scum.
He's not a confirmed scum though. I expect those who played with him to read his reaction better.

I believe we should lynch PV today.

[Netherspite]

Or Nether is just scumreading Titus & DS and did what he thought would be best.
But go ahead please.
I wonder when finally someone will read me correctly.

[Netherspite]

Seriously, I have my Derp moments but you cannot out theory Titus.

It just doesn't happen if I have the right facts and time to check my work.

When following your theory makes us mislynching several townies in a row I start thinking your theory is scum-motivated.

[Netherspite]

Holy fuck, Nether. You are such a moron. You're getting blacklisted after this game.

W/e you please.
Reaction testing scum suspects is a nice reason to blacklist someone, sure.

[Netherspite]

I've targeted Void and got "No Signal".

[Netherspite]

Nether realizes that DS will be cleared.

He retracts guilty.

He doesn't say real result.

I wouldn't do that in that case in the first place.
You've got a nice reason to mislynch me though and it matches your plan.

[Netherspite]

The scumteam is: [DS, Titus, one of PV/Marquis/Imperium]

[Netherspite]

He's not hard confirmed.
But you and DS make the most sense.
After the game I'll quote that post and we'll see who'll laugh.

[Netherspite]

Scum creating the hood where they can assign receivers is a dream for the scumteam.
Like they can completely ignore any possibility of being detected.
But laught as much as you want.

[Netherspite]

When scum Titus will win this and no1 will still even consider her being a scum I'll be seriously offended ><

[Netherspite]

I am never rolling scum in non-Marathon games if you didn't know yet.

Most fun part is you're behaving like a textbook scum-Titus and no1 is picking up on that.

[Netherspite]

@Town

Titus played some games with me a I doubt she'd read me that wrong.
Don't give her a free pass after my townflip.

[Netherspite]

I was suspecting Titus and DS.
Motivation for Titus is described above. + she didn't use VCA this game + she is looking like leading the town to follow the theory that is not so successful so far (it matches perfectly the scum!Titus suggestion)
I looked at N3 assignments (with an outed cop) and assumed that she would assign her scumbuddy to the Cop to achieve one of the two scenarios:
1) to kill him without suspicion in case tracker will track him
2) to fake his result in case it'll be in scum's favor (if cop will target one of the scums, to clear him)
That's why I decided to target the cop as well (to check what result DS will claim if the cop will survive and compare with mine)
When the cop died I decided to try out the reaction test to see if DS will flail/rage/behave like a caught scum and in my opinion he behaved exactly like a caught scum.

[Netherspite]

Yeah, AtE, I've expected it.
No worries, they'll mislynch me first before realizing you're scum.

[Netherspite]

That would be not matching the logic of the other sensors.
I don't see any other mechanics besides him visiting a rolestopper that would make you receiving your result.

[Netherspite]

LLD is confirmed scum.
I've got the result from SDB the watcher. He watched Titus and she was visited by nobody.
Now check the #3111 and compare.

[Netherspite]

I suggest to wait until mod confirms I've got correct result.

[Netherspite]

VOTE: DiamondSentinel[/b]

Too eager to lynch LLD when the mod didn't even confirm it + SDB when even if mod would confirm the result it wouldn't confirm SDB as scum.

PEdit: They don't have idea about what's going on in the hood not because they're scum but because they're not a receiver.

[Netherspite]

VOTE: DiamondSentinel

[Netherspite]

Activity is not alignment indicative imo.

[Netherspite]

*looks at SDB's post count*

Yeah that's dying tomorrow.

Activity is not alignment indicative.

[Netherspite]

I'm not sold on them being either scum or town.
I'm still trying to figure out motivation for watching Titus.

[Netherspite]

I have an idea what town!SDB motivation could be but I want to wait for them to explain it.

[Netherspite]

Spiffeh, but we already know that.

[Netherspite]

Would be nice to have a confirmation though, I agree.

[Netherspite]

LLD is a ROLEcop which is essentially a useless role at this point.

[Netherspite]

Btw, imploding today should not happen by any means.
In case we're wrong with the lynch & implode it's autolose.
If we, however, do not implode today and only lynch, we will have 2 more shots tomorrow (lynch + implosion) in case we're wrong today.

[Netherspite]

Also, I'm wondering if FB can somehow give an alignment cop to some receiver that can be received without scum knowing this. It's prolly impossible?

[Netherspite]

We can prolly setup chain-receiving between receivers and have FB convert one of them at random.
However, scum will still have 66% chance to kill correct target to avoid the copping.
So, terrible idea.

[Netherspite]

Nights do not count iirc.

[Netherspite]

Lynch DS
Cop to Vamp.

We'll most likely (if Vamp is scum) have 1 scum dead and 1 outed.

What Titus offers however just brings us closer to losing this game.

===

@Titus

Re: #3422
If you're somehow magically town in this game I'll be really disappointed.
The only plans that have a right to exist are your plans?
That's stupid.

[Netherspite]

If I'm being stupid and you're somehow town.
Who's scum? And why.

[Netherspite]

I'm okay with that plan, however I'd prefer to lynch DS today as having more chance to flip scum.
Also please this time wait for FB to confirm he did submit his action before lynching or we'll lose his action again.

Tomorrow, when you'll see my flip, please lynch DS and implode Titus.

[Netherspite]

I thought it was due to FB submitting his action too late.
Anyway, waiting him to confirm he did submit his action is a good idea.

[Netherspite]

I'm getting tired as fuck of becoming an universal scumread in every fucking game for expressing uncommon opinions or doing uncommon things. Just because you don't agree with that does not mean it's coming from scum PoV.
I won't change my opinion or do convenient stuff just because others will like me more for that.

Uh.. Feeling better now after saying this.

Okay, so since I'm going to die anyway, I'd strongly prefer to be somehow useful to the town instead of just being mislynched like always. Do me a favor, lynch Vamp/DS and make me an alignment cop. I believe I deserved to choose the useful way of dying in this game.
I'll investigate whoever you like. Marquis? Okay, so be it.

[Netherspite]

And btw, DS & Titus are still scum, so I'm not blaming them for doing all of this.

[Netherspite]

I'll investigate whoever majority will tell me to investigate.

[Netherspite]

I'll investigate whoever majority will tell me to investigate.

This is awful. Assuming you're town, and I'm not convinced you are, you should either investigate who you think personally is best, or pick one person who you are confident is town, and respect their opinion, and choose someone they think.

I'll expain it after the game.

[Netherspite]

So right now we have 4 receivers. This will leave us with 3.

By lynching one of them, we end up with 2, so if they killed one, it would end up with 1 left. We could assume this would be scum, but it's a hard assumption to make, and it leaves us without a result.
By lynching either a sensor/emitter or not lynching at all, we keep all 3, so if they killed one, we'd have 2. This would mean someone could back them up. This could lead to 2 of them going against each other, but it could also lead to a confirmation of 3 people.

Personally, I think NOT lynching a receiver is the best idea. Ergo LLD or SDB is our best lynch. Or Titus. But I dunno.

Both remaining receivers will target me as the cop and thus killing one of receivers will be not enough to leave us without a result.
Scum will rather go for me.

[Netherspite]

@Firebringer

You have me as scum IIRC ?
So give me the alignment cop role, it's already explained above why it's useful.
I can investigate Titus.
And DON'T implode anyone as it loses us 1 possible mislynch (2 mislynches -> lose in case of imploding today, 3 mislynches -> lose in case we're not imploding today but rather imploding tomorrow).

[Netherspite]

FB, please give me alignment cop, it's the best GM action today.

[Netherspite]

VOTE: Super Dupondt Bros

[Netherspite]

Yes he has.

[Netherspite]

Otherwise he wouldn't vote so I assume so.
But he definitely has a result on SDB from me.

Anyway, FB, please DON'T implode anyone today. There's smalllll chance of fake guilty but it's still possible so better to play safe.

[Netherspite]

Yeah and if you fake guiltied tomorrow we'll face autolose.
I doubt you are scum but ... lets play safe

[Netherspite]

DON'T IMPLODE ANYONE.
We can both lynch AND implode tomorrow. There's no rush.
If we implode today and SDB will flip town we're AUTOLOSING.

[Netherspite]

Imploding makes sense only if it lets us have 1 more town controlled kill before we lose.
It means it should be used only at LyLo.

[Netherspite]

This ^

[Netherspite]

This ^

[Netherspite]

Sorry, doubleclick.

[Netherspite]

The more likely scenario is that DS is town, SDB is scum, and Nether is also scum.

I lol'd.
It's okay, I'll die this night so you won't have to mislynch me.

[Netherspite]

How about it was my idea that they both will target me?
How about I was announcing incorrect target on purpose?

[Netherspite]

Nope. I'm claiming that I've announced Marquis in the game thread as my target and Titus in the hood as my target to gauge reactions expressed via night kill choice.

[Netherspite]

I was going to target you initially but changed my mind later (Mod can't confirm that obviously but after the game you can ask her).

[Netherspite]

You're either scum or confbiased town.
In any case it's a useless discussion.
You won't have to mislynch me anyway, I doubt I'll survive the night.

[Netherspite]

I don't care what it feels like for you.
You obviously can't read me if you're town and I'll lmfao on you after the game. "this feels sooo faaaaake" "nether is scuuum" lol.

[Netherspite]

Sad part is you're actually most likely town for that stupid push.
I'd prefer you being scum...

[Netherspite]

@LLD

Why so?

@Marquis

No, there is only 1 receiver left. No point.

[Netherspite]

@LLD

Did you mean that you're so good as scum that you'd win already?
Why wouldn't I prefer it considering you have me as a strong scumread? Scum!me obviously prefer to win already. Do you imply I'm town and you know it by saying I wouldn't prefer a scum victory?

[Netherspite]

Aight excuse accepted.
Anyway, your reads make no sense and you'll soon see it yourself.

[Netherspite]

Not stretching anything, this whole idea of me not preferring you being scum was hypothetical for you in the first place just because I can't prefer you being scum or town if I'm scum: I'd know it already you're town in that case.

[Netherspite]

"excuse accepted" holy fuck I want to drive a spike through your cranium right meow.

Being impolite does not make you any more right or anything.

[Netherspite]

I'd rather like you to keep your BS with you since I don't want to turn the game thread into useless discussion. Thank you.

[Netherspite]

I wonder what you'll say when I'll actually die tonight.
"Oh I was wrong sorry, lets mislynch someone else".
Or will you kill DS instead as the last receiver who makes my role useful?

[Netherspite]

The problem with Titus being scum is me not dying despite we arranged 2 receivers visiting me and I claimed Titus as my target in the hood.
However it could be done for WIFOM purposes.

[Netherspite]

Spiffeh kill looks more like someone from outside the hood decided to kill him.
That's WIFOMy again though.

[Netherspite]

So you think they would sacrifice Titus in case I'd really target her? That's possible but SDB was more or less universal scumread before the guilty result. Wouldn't that be too risky?

[Netherspite]

Why wouldn't she believe?

[Netherspite]

I'm actually disappointed by myself because I didn't actually target Titus.

[Netherspite]

Now that you say that I feel myself stupid for not thinking more deeply ><

[Netherspite]

I think DS should target Marquis or me on his own choice (50/50 randomly or so) tonight in case Marquis' ability actually stops the nightkills.
In that case scum will be forced to kill me instead of him. And I'm way easier to mislynch so it will be better.

[Netherspite]

@DiamondSentinel

Going to sleep so I'll explain it a bit more and let it to your decision.
If you will use random.org to choose a number 1-2 and use that as your target (1 = me, 2 = Marquis or vice versa, just decide before rolling), scum will have the following options:
a) shoot DS: in this case they'll have 50% chance of no kill, allowing us to lynch 2 more players and implode one, thus leaving us with 3 out of 4 attempts to find the scum. (FB will survive until LyLo because next night scum will have to shoot one of DS and me again)
b) shoot me: in this case they're killing suboptimal easily mislynchable target
c) shoot someone else: in this case we're getting 1 more cop result with 50% chance which is bad for them as well.
Most likely they'll choose (b).
The only problem with this plan is if DS is scum but I find it really unlikely.l

[Netherspite]

@Titus

Listing your read on yourself in this list is kinda wrong imo. Just saying.

[Netherspite]

Guys, by imploding today and tomorrow, we could have 2 sensors/emitters. That means we lynch one implode the other, and auto-win.

If we just lynch, we're left with 3 sensors/emitters, which means we have to make a choice. I'd rather have no choice to make.

This logic is faulty and makes me reconsidering my townread on you.
The only motivation for you to suggest this is if you want to autowin this game today.
We should absolutely not implode anyone today by any means.

[Netherspite]

autowin as scum*

[Netherspite]

@DS

Consider #3630 #3631 please.

[Netherspite]

@Marquis

DS+you or DS+me or DS+LLD scumteam will autowin in this case.
I know you're townreading both me and LLD (you said so) but it still is not reliable enough.

[Netherspite]

Damn it's 2am already.
Going to sleep NOW really.

@FB

, don't implode anyone.

@DS

, consider what I said you.

[Netherspite]

Doesn't this lead to a potential worst case scenario?

DS targets Marquis
Scum kill Firebringer

In this scenario, you don't have any results to show for it, our confirmed town vig is dead, and town is in trouble.

Yes, you're right, worse case scenario is terrible. Would scum risk letting us to investigate someone with 50% chance though?

[Netherspite]

I agree on that.
Let's play safe.

[Netherspite]

LLD, if you're using laptop instead of normal PC it's possible by accidentally clicking with touchpad to some place in the quoted text while typing.

[Netherspite]

DS why did you do that? We agreed it's terrible idea.

[Netherspite]

Yes and I've agreed with you that it shouldn't be done.

[Netherspite]

@LLD, Re: #3697

He wasn't assigned, he decided to do it himself.
The whole timeline was:

1. Spiffeh was assigned to me, DS was assigned to SDB, I announced that I'll target Marquis in the game thread.
2. I've asked them to swap in the hood, later I changed my mind and asked them both to target me, Spiffeh refused to, DS agreed and asked Spiffeh to do it as well.
3. I've announced that I'll target Titus in the hood.
4. Night deadline came.
5. I said my target was actually SDB in the hood.
6. Spiffeh said he actually targeted me in the hood.

[Netherspite]

Why would scum!DS target me willingly? He could just kill off Spiffeh and target SDB like Titus assigned.

[Netherspite]

The whole scum!DS behavior does not make sense for me.
Unless he did all of that for WIFOM.

[Netherspite]

@LLD

Claiming guilty on any other possible target (not SDB) I've targeted would be stupid for him as he'd be lynched next day.
However, pushing for implosion was scummy, yes. Marquis did it too however.

@Titus

N5.

[Netherspite]

@Titus

Let me think.
You want both my N5 and N6 plays from scum PoV ?

[Netherspite]

Or wait it wasn't for me

[Netherspite]

I kill and target the same person, so DS gets a result on a dead guy.

Probably me or Marquis.

I wouldn't.
That's too obvious.

[Netherspite]

N6 as scum I'd pretty much likely would go for confirming 1 townie and killing off FB.
So when I saw night results I thought it would be a good play for me!scum so I'm definitely going to be a good mislynch bait today.

[Netherspite]

Before I do any further analysis, I'll post my current reads from scummiest to towniest:

Titus
Marquis
DS
LLD

---

And I'd like to do some VCA.
Here is the listing, I'll analyze and think about it then get back here.
If any1 has any additions/notices any mistakes, feel free to fix.

1234567890

(9):

Super Dupondt Bros

,

The Random Encounter

,

Void Protectorate

,

Spiffeh

,

Wisdom

, Stairway to the Abyss,

hi im Yakko

,

PeregrineV

,

1234567890

Courier New (6):

Netherspite,

Imperium

, Lady Lambdadelta,

Firebringer

, Courier New,

SnarkySnowman

Wisdom

(2):

Minami no Hana

, DiamondSentinel

---

SnarkySnowman

(8):

Spiffeh

, Stairway to the Abyss, DiamondSentinel,

PeregrineV

,

The Random Encounter

,

Void Protectorate

,

Firebringer

, Netherspite

Netherspite (4):

Lady Lambdadelta,

Antihero

,

hi im Yakko

,

SnarkySnowman

The Random Encounter

(2):

Imperium

, Marquis

Not Voting (1):

Super Dupondt Bros

---

hi im Yakko

(7):

Stairway to the Abyss, Lady Lambdadelta, Netherspite,

Firebringer

,

Void Protectorate

, DiamondSentinel,

hi im Yakko

<---- Lynch!

Vampirate

(4):

Marquis,

Imperium

,

Spiffeh

,

PeregrineV

Not Voting (2):

Super Dupondt Bros

,

Vampirate

---

PeregrineV

(6):

Stairway to the Abyss, Netherspite, Marquis, DiamondSentinel,

Spiffeh

, Lady Lambdadelta <--- Lynch!

Not Voting (5):

Imperium

,

PeregrineV

,

Vampirate

,

Super Dupondt Bros

,

Firebringer

---

Vampirate

(5):

Marquis, Stairway to the Abyss,

Firebringer

,

Spiffeh

, DiamondSentinel

DiamondSentinel (1):

Netherspite

Netherspite (1):

Lady Lambdadelta

Not Voting (2):

Super Dupondt Bros

,

Vampirate

---

Super Dupondt Bros

(4):

Netherspite, DiamondSentinel, Stairway to the Abyss,

Super Dupondt Bros

<--- Lynch!

Not Voting (3):

Marquis,

Firebringer

, Lady Lambdadelta

[Netherspite]

Yeah, I know, It's just a starting point. Results are not final by any means.

Spoiler: Lynch votecounts analysis

D1 wagons:
- It's quite interesting we see 2 scums in the beginning of the scum wagon. It looks like it was a planned bussing decision. In this case I'd expect all scums on this wagon and the only non-flipped player on the wagon is Titus.
- A counterwagon for numbers was Marquis. He has only flipped towns on him, himself + 2 unknown alignment players. For me it's even 4 conftowns + himself + 1 unknown. If bussing of numbers was a well planned decision, then scum was not interested in counterwagon so I guess there should be no scum on this wagon.
- Another possible place I'd expect last scum to be is the wagon not going anywhere (Wisdom's wagon). In this case DS is scum.

D2 wagons:
- Here I'd expect only 1 scum on the leading mislynch wagon. Thus Titus & DS are not likely to be scum here (yes that's contradicting to the D1 analysis).
- In this case last scum should be on either of the counter/parking wagons: LLD/Marquis (yes, completely contradictory to D1)

D3 wagons:
- I highly doubt there were NO scum on a mislynch wagon. Thus Marquis is likely to be town here.

D4 wagons:
- Titus is first on the wagon again. I'd rather give scumpoints for that.

D5 wagons:
- Scum would surely want some towncred for a scum lynch so there should be a scum on Vampirate wagon. Thus, Titus/Marquis.

[Netherspite]

She posted her question while I was preparing the post so I've just added my readslist in the beginning of the post if you didn't noticed. Before I did any VCA or anything.

My methods may be questionable but this is the way I think.
I'm all open to see your "proper" VCA btw. Go ahead.
I'll do mine meanwhile.

[Netherspite]

You also reach no conclusion whatsoever.

Can you read?

Yeah, I know, It's just a starting point. Results are not final by any means.

[Netherspite]

It's so cute to attack someone for not finishing stuff he's still working on when he explicitly stated it's not finished yet.

[Netherspite]

<Redacted by MOD; new link: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing>

Rows: players, Columns: VCs,
Cells contain names of who the player is voting at that specific VC.
2 pairs of VCs were merged as there were no changes (I listed them like VC8-9 or so).

You can replace the name of the last scum in cell A22 with any name of the remaining players. It will highlight scum names with red and town names with green.

Now a little exercise: tell me who's the last scum.
It's so obvious it hurts.

[Netherspite]

P.S. To be able to edit it, make a copy (File -> Make a copy).

[Netherspite]

Well, try putting "Titus" into A22.
Don't you see a scum strategy here?

[Netherspite]

Nope.
Well if you don't see it then it's probably confbias. I've tried to post it without comments to see if any1 sees what I do.
I'll explain my thoughts then:
I looked at when exactly do scum switch to the ika's wagon.
Asked myself - why did they do so? Obvious answer: it was a planned decision to bus.
Who took that decision? Obviously he would jump on that wagon first.
Why would they take such decision? To counter a wagon on someone who had a

plan

that could look towny while actually serving scum?

[Netherspite]

Also, interesting enough, scum didn't cross vote (except ika's vote for Titus, but he does that all the time so...) before bussing happened.
Titus being scum matches that pattern perfectly.

[Netherspite]

Well I just did.
Titus matches perfectly into it.

D1 starts, Titus sees her role and says "GUYS! I have an ideal plan! I'll make all receivers in the hood with me and call that a townblock. One of you will be in this 'townblock' with me!"
Later, a wagon on Titus starts growing and she's becomes worried by her plan not becoming reality. She decides that scum should bus one of them, announces it in the scum PT and votes him, the one who is already being suspected.
Other scums join the wagon a bit later (when they see her post in the PT).
Later an opportunity to score a mislynch on Wisdom appears and she immediately jumps there. When she realizes it won't happen she jumps back sticking with the plan.

[Netherspite]

Just realized I wrote wrong name in the last sentence.
Fix: Wisdom -> Marquis.

[Netherspite]

FB is conftown.
Also, killing you was a risk of you targeting Marquis (and you did it), while killing me was a kill on a mislynchable player.
I guess scum just outguessed you and decided that you'll target Marquis and it was a correct guess.
Another reason could be to make you easier to mislynch (why wasn't he targeted by scum, may be he's scum himself?)
Anyway, share your opinion on #3757 please.

[Netherspite]

Yes this is the case where the scumteam became obvious. If others don't see it - fine, but I hope town will reconsider it in LyLo if you'll succeed to mislynch me.

1. Yes I know ika votes you in every single game. I even used that fact in the explanation.

2. If Marquis wagon had no shot why did you vote him?

3. My vote pattern was at first tunneling Marquis, later sheeping you before I realized I'm being led by scum. After that there was a reaction test (yeah from your PoV it was terrible but idc, I would do it again if I would be in the same situation). And finally it was a vote on a cop's guilty result.
So no, my vote pattern was definitely better than yours. Yours is screaming of scum while mine is logical from town PoV.

[Netherspite]

1. no you really didn't. You didn't factor the guts of D1 at all. Dual bus theory is a fiction. There were zero scum on my wagon beyond ika mandatory vote. That's not scum shifting it deliberately. Like wtf.

2. Because I don't want drama with ika. I didn't have knowledge of his alignment. I also like investigation.

3. Why you are supposing Marquis is town? Your whole point was that you were "being led by scum" which makes no sense in that context.

4. Your "reaction test" was nothing but an attempt to mislynch DS. If I hadn't have stepped in, he probably would have been.

5. The goal of a VCA is not to prove your own vote pattern as better than anyone else's. The goal is to sort players.

1. Yeah, there wasn't any cross-votes between scum except ika's vote on you and scum votes on ika. That's my point. That's the pattern.

2. So you say that his behavior was equal to cop's guilty but you didn't have knowledge of his alignment and changed your vote because you didn't want drama with him?
This makes no sense. Why did you vote him in the first place then? Why did you return your vote back after a single votecount?

3. I've made that spreadsheet for a reason. I was able to put in name of every remaining player to see if that player as scum would make sense. The only player who did was you. Marquis does not.
I was led by scum because you've built that hood for the single reason: to mislead town. I've got caught into that trap until latest game days.

4. Are you kidding me? Did it look like I'm going to mislynch him? Why did I say it was a reaction test and stopped it then?
And even if it would go through, what would scum!me achieve? Confirm myself as scum? You're making no sense again.

5. Yeah I sorted players and found the last scum. That's the purpose of VCA, right?

[Netherspite]

Btw, if I were scum I wouldn't go for Titus' mislynch today because that would put me into LyLo with 2 not mislynchable players tomorrow.
So you've chosen wrong player to mislynch Titus. I realize you put yourself into this situation because you were "scumreading" me for a while and "townreading" the rest but still.

Anyway, it's getting really late here.

VOTE: Titus

Funny enough, I've caught Titus using VCA she's famous for.

P.S.

@Titus

If you will manage to convince town to mislynch me you'll be still obvscum tomorrow.