Mini 1748: ClownTardis Mafia - GAME OVER!

[Plottin Kittehs]

Second! I am good at counting.

VOTE: Persivul for forgetting to complain about his dislike of hydrae

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

4th post!

I didn't forget, conscious decision not to.

Because you complained about it both last times that you were scum against me and wanted to mix up your meta?

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

4th post!

I didn't forget, conscious decision not to.

Because you complained about it both last times that you were scum against me and wanted to mix up your meta?

--P

Nope, it's a general life rule that you should change up your shtick from time to time. Don't want to be a broken record (showing my age there), or the old man yelling at kids for being in his yard.

Lol. I like this, but he's aware of the meta so this brings Ploti's line of questioning to a null-tell. So there's that.

Aristophanes and Plotinus are in the same game, nice.

That's what I was thinking!

VOTE: Frozen Angel
For accusing Shiro of cheating!
The Doctor would never cheat!

Well, there's a probability of anything. Statistically speaking, if you gave typewriters to a treeful of monkeys, they'd eventually produce the works of William Shakespeare. How do you know Shiro is a doctor?

Counter question, do you have any reason to think she is not?

Don't really care for Ari answering a question with a question. More like deflection if you ask me.

he wasn't in the first list! and he was cute!

If being cute is a crime, then consider me guilty...

Cuuuuuuuuuuuuute. (this is fluff, but I liked that)

Aristophanes and Plotinus are in the same game, nice.

That's what I was thinking!

VOTE: Frozen Angel
For accusing Shiro of cheating!
The Doctor would never cheat!

Well, there's a probability of anything. Statistically speaking, if you gave typewriters to a treeful of monkeys, they'd eventually produce the works of William Shakespeare. How do you know Shiro is a doctor?

Counter question, do you have any reason to think she is not?

I don't like this. You dodged the question. Answer it.

I like Soren's pressure early on very nice.

Everyone's doing all of this RVS, and I say, no more!

I'll do some Who-themed RQS:

Favourite alien race?
Favourite Master?
Favourite episode?

My answers for them are:
Ood
John Simm
Midnight


PEdit seriously guys The Doctor is The Doctor as in the character, are people over-interpreting things already? Oh dear.

Haven't watched it wouldn't know.

Why don't you like RVS btw?? Afraid you are going to out your scum partner already?

Bit quick to judge? Since he hasn't even posted yet. I'd like to see where you go from here.

Eh this overdefensive bothers me. (I'm making a note of this.)

Second! I am good at counting.

VOTE: Persivul for forgetting to complain about his dislike of hydrae

--P

I didn't forget, conscious decision not to.

VOTE: FAQ2
Not quite random.

4th post!

I didn't forget, conscious decision not to.

Because you complained about it both last times that you were scum against me and wanted to mix up your meta?

--P

Yo Plot - I want your hydra partner to read this exchange and tell me how I should respond to it.

I don't know man. I actually like Persi's response to this line of questioning/pressure from my other head. I mean I don't necessarily agree with that being a scum-tell because this looks more like a town-tell for him not to complain, but she's right. I have actually seen him complain more in general early stages as scum. The Blitz game that just ended he tried to complain/run a policy lynch on a player early. (I have seen him though complain about hydra in a completed game, but also be town. Which is why I don't really agree with that tell).

Yo Plot - I want your hydra partner to read this exchange and tell me how I should respond to it.

Pussy. Respond to it yourself.

LOL. Shit man I actually like Persi this game! I have never liked him in any of my games prior so not sure what to make of this!

BTW, I forgot to add this before but I've never watched Doctor Who.

Hate me for that if you must but when it comes to interpreting moderator write-ups that involve the show's references, I'm not going to be of much help.

Eh, can you get an avatar?

I'm not really sure I like the last line of this post though.

I read The Doctor (capitalized) as a Doctor Who reference, not a mafia role reference.

Yo Plot - I want your hydra partner to read this exchange and tell me how I should respond to it.

Pussy. Respond to it yourself.

Worthless posts designed to look town.

"Not quite random" vote on a player who hasn't posted yet.

VOTE: Persivul

I haaateeeeeeeeeeee Rob's entry. Hate, but it has nothing to do with Persi for the most part, but feels more sheepish without taking much stances on anything else that has happened so far.

Also I'm not a huge fan of Kuroi's last post either. I think that's kinda fence-sitty.


(So I'm going to move our vote off of Persi.
I'm going to:

VOTE: Kuroi

and write

love notes

notes to Ploti in our hydra PT about how I'm feeling towards Kuroi and see how she feels about it)

~M

[Plottin Kittehs]

the buddying is real in da house ya'll.

It's weird to see talah post like that :\

~M

[Plottin Kittehs]

Everyone can be scum unless we find reasons that their not.

ew

I'll do some Who-themed RQS:

Neither of us have any flavour knowledge. I've picked up a a tiny tiny bit by cultural osmosis but not enough to understand these questions.

Is Persivul's first post

right

after someone's voting on him indicate his possible lurking?

Nah. With 2 week day phases, 3 hours worth of inactivity doesn't mean anything.

Re: Mala's catchup, I also liked Pers' response to me on page 1. I'm okay with the location of our vote. Vaguely less happy with his later content but nothing I can put my finger on tonight. I think I just want to see more from him.

Is Persivul's first post

right

after someone's voting on him indicate his possible lurking?

This is newb town.

And no, it doesn't indicate that.

Why are you so quick to write him off as newb town? That post was an okay first push but I need to see considerably more scumhunting from him before I'd be comfortable making that assessment. This game has an experience requirement of 3 games, or the offsite equivalent. Therefore he's new to the site, but not new to the mafia.

The question itself isn't terrible if he's coming from a faster environment; what bothers me about his slot is the lack of other pushes in any direction and a few other newbtown markers that I won't say what they are yet because not handing out roadmaps on how to fly under my radar, but I'll mention them if they show up.

I'm just not seeing anything I can call town from this slot yet. I think if he is town it'll show eventually; Mala mods a lot of newbie games and about a third of my completed games are newbie games. I think some other players are either newbies or play with them regularly, so chances are enough of us will be able to read the slot eventually.

~

While we're agreeing on terminology, with a FA_Q2 and a Frozen Angel in the game it is going to get really confusing if we use the abbreviation FA for both of them. I can tell from context that Ari means Frozen Angel but I am probably going to get confused later, especially when I'm ISOing people. Can we agree to call

neither

of them FA?

FAQ and Frozen?
Q2 and Angel?


please.

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

Hi not maf!

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

I'm not liking Rob's quick determination of Kuroi as Newbie town.

IDK. It just feels really soon to judge type read with no meaningful basis around it.

Also FA where did Rob answer for Persi?? I don't really see that as a question to Persi directly, but a question for all the thread as a whole. Which is why the question/statement bugged me flat out.

~M

(still catching up, but reading the thread backwards, lmafo)

[Plottin Kittehs]

Adaptive, do you think Kurio's post is wrong or scummy? Note the join date.

What does a join date have to do with anything?
Not everyone was allowed in this game because of the setup itself. You had to have experience in mafia. So join date doesn't mean anything since this guy obviously has mafia experience. Is there a reason why you're ignoring this fact all together, but are continuing to white-knight him??

Adaptive, do you think Kurio's post is wrong or scummy? Note the join date.

Same question to Mala for that matter.

Note the answer above.

~M

[Plottin Kittehs]

It looks like the time for joke voting quickly came to an end.

UNVOTE: Soren

Any reads or something?

anything

?

the buddying is real in da house ya'll.

It's weird to see talah post like that :\

~M

Weird in a scummy way or weird in a "I have no idea" way?

Not weird in a scummy way, but weird as why is Talah buddying me so early type of feel. (not sure if this makes any type of sense)

Something tells me that Aristophanes is reading waayyy too much into something which we have already shown to be confusing to refer to, plus Frozen isn't native English speaker so she's obviously going to have trouble communicating.

VOTE: Davsto

Do something.

Arguably my ISO is far worse. Why pick him for it ?

This is so terrible. :\

Mala's push on me is kind of weird, now that I'm looking at it again. She says I'm sheeping, but I'm the first person to call Persivul scummy for his shitty posting? I don't really understand that. The rest of the post reeks of town, so the slot is probably town. Frozen asked me why, but the answer is going to be kind of general: #49 looks like genuine scum-hunting. It doesn't at all look like Mala's faking it or trying to just look like town.

#78: In my experience, hesitant pushes are more likely to come from town than from scum. That's why I said that Kuroi is newb town. I regularly see newb scum act either more aggressively or more cautiously (i.e. not making pushes at all), but newb town tends to be overly concerned with being wrong. Obviously, this read is subject to change; I

am

basing it off only one post at the moment, after all, but it's as good a read as any by page 2.

I didn't realize there was an experience requirement for this game, which does indeed wipe away the weak read I had on Kuroi.

I guess 'sheeping' was the wrong word. What bothers me on the post re: Persi is that there was already a wagon building and I don't really see how his posts were worthless than any other posts so far at the time. I mean Dav's post re:RQS while ignoring everything else in RVS was p scummy, but Persi's posts weren't bothering me as much. Maybe we just view stuff differently idk.

The whole "newb town/scum" can't really apply here as much though. I mean it can to a certain extent, but I am not literally going to okay here Kuroi I'm going to give you a Day 1 pass b/c you're new at mafia. He's not new to mafia, but new to this site -- I'll give him that, but anything else, nah.

The game is five pages in, the hell do you expect me to do, have a read on literally everyone? I'm like Regigigas; I can have quite a slow start to games very often.

The capitals/non-capitals thing just isn't explicit enough. We need a way to refer to Doctor/doctor in a way such as we know exactly which is being referred to. You saw the confusion earlier, why act like that's not something that should be avoided in even the most obtuse way possible?

Rob basically just came in and repeated everything Bro has already said ("Dav ain't done much" (ignoring that others haven't done much, that the game is 5 pages in so of course I'm not gonna be having reads on everyone) and "Mala is town because vagueness").

Basically,
VOTE: Rob13

This post is p bad too.

reeks of OMGUS, self-meta etc. I actually have to agree with both Rob and BRO here though. You haven't shown any signs of scumhunting yet such as asking questions, engaging etc or even giving any thoughts. All you have done is either play with flavor discussions.

If you get around to meta'ing Davsto, please provide links to the games you use, because I may take a look too. I can't guarantee it because I have family obligations coming up (grandpa going for surgery, helping around that household for a week or so) but I'll take a peek if I have time.

Hopefully you'll grandpa will be okay!

Re: Ari

I do stream of consciousness as scum too, so it is kind of my playstyle. I only do it when I have to catch up, because I know no other way to catch up really.

Really didn't like this post. Why did you bother pointing out that you do that as scum too?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Rob13

Because he was using bad meta? I can either point it out now, or he can dig through my meta later and figure that out. Same result, but in the latter option, he's wasting time he could be using finding scum.

Liking Rob a bit more due to his last sets of posts, especially this one. I kinda don't really see how this could possibly come from scum.

~M

[Plottin Kittehs]

It looks like the time for joke voting quickly came to an end.

UNVOTE: Soren

Does anything stand out to you yet as scummy?

I like Rob's 120 because I can follow the thoughts in it. I doubt this is a good reason to townread him but I like the post anyway.

Dav's omgus seems a bit over the top. I can sympathise with it taking a while to get your head into a game because I used to have that problem when I was newer but I need to see some scumhunting from your slot soon.

Re: Ari

I do stream of consciousness as scum too, so it is kind of my playstyle. I only do it when I have to catch up, because I know no other way to catch up really.

Really didn't like this post. Why did you bother pointing out that you do that as scum too?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Rob13

Do you think scum are more likely to point out that someone is townreading them for the wrong reasons than town?


oh hey there's a mala post saying what I was thinking about lots of stuff except better. <3

OMGUS isn't a scumtell, also OMGUS is voting someone just because they voted you. My reason for voting Rob is because he's scummy. The meaning of OMGUS has now become a buzzword and an excuse to scumread anyone who happens to be scumreading the person voting for them.

Why is Rob scummy?

These posts reek of scum trying too hard to appear helpful.

I don't see it.

Bleh you guys

Dav's last few posts seem like frustrated town to me.

Also having played with Dav before, he is always light like that early game.

hmm, ok. Does pressuring him early on tend to help him get his head into the game or does it make it worse?

why would we fight other doctor who's?!?

I think trying to outguess the mod is usually a bad idea. Why not make a game with all 13 doctors and choose at random which would be bad guys?

Either flavour has nothing to do with alignment and we're all Doctor Who's, or the mod will provide safeclaims so that people can pretend to be Doctor Who's if they're not. Otherwise, imagine we are playing a three little pigs theme game and on day 1 everybody claims what role they have and one person claims that he's the pig who made the house out of straw, and the next claims that he's the pig who made the house out of sticks, and the next claims that he's the pig that made the house out of bricks, and the last person claims that he's the big bad wolf, and then they lynch him and win the game. And the big bad wolf is so upset at not being given a safeclaim that he huffs and he puffs and he blows the mods' house in.

This metaphor is getting away from me but basically I think we're probably all Doctor Who's but if we're not then we're not going to be able to the real ones from the fakes very easily. Otherwise, players without flavour knowledge would be at a big disadvantage.

Arguably my ISO is far worse. Why pick him for it ?

I just ISOed you and I can attest to this. Are you having trouble getting your head into the game or just busy with holiday stuff? Do you feel like voting anybody yet?


Frozen, why are you still voting Shiro? Is your vote on him now serious?

Pers, why do you attack Frozen and Rob for looking town? It seems a bit early in the game for that kind of paranoia to be genuine.

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

Fair enough.

I hope your real life situation improves.

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

This post is p bad too.

reeks of OMGUS, self-meta etc. I actually have to agree with both Rob and BRO here though. You haven't shown any signs of scumhunting yet such as asking questions, engaging etc or even giving any thoughts. All you have done is either play with flavor discussions.

OMGUS isn't a scumtell, also OMGUS is voting someone just because they voted you. My reason for voting Rob is because he's scummy. The meaning of OMGUS has now become a buzzword and an excuse to scumread anyone who happens to be scumreading the person voting for them.

Self-meta is acceptable when used to point out things that are null tells. If I am being voted purely for something I have done in town games, am I not allowed to point out that it's something I've done in town games?

Also, please don't start with the blatantly false "you've done no scumhunting" stuff because I literally just got out of a game where it happened to a ridiculous extent despite me clearly having scumhunted. Like, you can't accuse me of not scumhunting while I have posts like this

The game is five pages in, the hell do you expect me to do, have a read on literally everyone? I'm like Regigigas; I can have quite a slow start to games very often.

The capitals/non-capitals thing just isn't explicit enough. We need a way to refer to Doctor/doctor in a way such as we know exactly which is being referred to. You saw the confusion earlier, why act like that's not something that should be avoided in even the most obtuse way possible?

Rob basically just came in and repeated everything Bro has already said ("Dav ain't done much" (ignoring that others haven't done much, that the game is 5 pages in so of course I'm not gonna be having reads on everyone) and "Mala is town because vagueness").

Basically,
VOTE: Rob13

Okay, OMGUS isn't a scum-tell in of itself, but going into defensive mode over someone asking you to scum-hunt and then proceeding to attack them doesn't really make any sense. I mean you had several opportunities to pressure people, engage and everything else while poking at the flavor, but you didn't. You ignored RVS and all the other 'contentful' substance. It's just really odd.

I'm going to call you out for not scum-hunting because you haven't. You only

started

to scum-hunt after people called you out about it and you started to get a wagon forming on you.

You realize most accusations of no scum-hunting came

before

that post, right? Not to mention 2/3 of that post is a defense and talking about a clarity issue?

Can you show us a single read or bit of scum-hunting you did before that post?

This ^.

My second scum read is on FA_Q2. Reading through his ISO he offers very little and makes very short comments in response to posts. I find this to be particularly scummy because its a strong scum trait. Knowing everyone's alignment they have a hard time engaging and scum hunting, so they have to resort to making little responses to other players while not making a post which contains their concise thoughts about the game.

VOTE: Davsto

I don't really know how to respond to this other than to say that it is garbage. I comment on what I think needs commenting on. That is not going to change.

This is fucking terrible too.

First off coming in to call someone's case terrible. =\

You kinda just joined in my 'go into my scum pile group'.

Because he was using bad meta?

So what? He was town reading you from it. If you're town and you know it's really a null tell, why bother pointing that out? How does that advance this game?

I can either point it out now, or he can dig through my meta later and figure that out. Same result, but in the latter option, he's wasting time he could be using finding scum.

False dichotomy. You could have just let it go.

You can literally see in the post above yours how it helped him form reads. Why would I want to not help other players in forming their reads?

These posts reek of scum trying too hard to appear helpful.

This is a really bad push all around. He gave information - something that is always good as town. I have seen nothing that I would remotely consider townie from you yet. Your 'case' against rob is really stretching at this point.
VOTE: Persivul

While I do have a slight scumread off Persivul, I don't think he's stretching himself thin, especially not by pointing logical fallacies.

Can you like vote your scum reads? I mean or maybe explain your scum read on Persi.

Is there any reason why you're deciding to post elsewhere on site, but on this game you seem to be content on just passing by.

You are flying under the radar and what's sad is people are letting you do that.

The Davsto wagon is hitting resistance, and I don't think that's a coincidence. In particular, I believe several people have said that commenting on flavor and having fun with it isn't scummy.

That's not the point. Commenting on flavor is fine. Not commenting on anything else for four pages despite looking at the game at least four times

is definitely scummy

. Characterizing the issues that I and multiple others take with Davsto as simply taking issue with the "fun with flavor" is a strawman.

Indeed, my scum read on Dav isn't because let's comment on just flavor. It's the fact he hasn't been hunting at all, ignoring all content-like posts in early game while just commenting on flavor-related things. I don't mind when people comment on flavor, but I do mind it when it interferes with the game-state to the point he's ignoring everything surrounding him to do so. He only started to hunt after he's been called out/voted.

I also find it's weird that he's going after Rob, but ignoring BRO. IDK maybe he thinks he's able to lynch Rob easier?

Just to be very clear, my flavor spoiler was meant more to educate on regenerations than to speculate. I probably did more speculation than I should have. The mod probably did randomize scum to regenerations now that I think about it. It would have been wise to do so.

Adaptive, I have to think about what you just said in terms of the timing.

I don't see much testing the waters from newb-scum. I generally see either aggressiveness or passiveness in a fairly absolute form, at least very early in the game. Testing the waters comes from newb-town unsure how to find scum more often than newb-scum trying to figure out where to push, in my experience.

Also, that Persivul transition is

awful

. Like, completely awful.

VOTE: Persivul

I can understand testing the water was what Kurio was doing early game, but I find it oddly that's he's been on the game three times since then, but hasn't voted this said scum-read nor is he pushing it. I see no reads from him and fail to see how he's pushing Persi especially after the fact he's been thinking he's scum.

~M

(I know a lot of this post was probably very hard to read, but I'm starting to lean town on Rob. I'm not liking FA and Kuroi. Shiro posting is "eh" and Dav's posting is pretty terrible.)

I need to talk to Ploti though.

Also I hope everyone had a Great Christmas~

[Plottin Kittehs]

This head is v/la for a couple days because lifesuck. Will still be aroundish in the hydra PT for Mala to bounce stuff off me.

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

I'm here, sorry. Weekend was stressful and it's taken a physical toll as well but I'm ok. Apologies if I'm a little less coherent and a little more rambly than usual.

While I do have a slight scumread off Persivul, I don't think he's stretching himself thin, especially not by pointing logical fallacies.

Can you do something more than fencesit?

and about avatar its about another ongoing game.

Please don't talk about ongoing games.


I like talah's 211 against Kuroi (and agree about the avatar thing. He needs to get one for sure but refusing like that is townier than not.)

like 216 too. is good points.

@Talah trying too hard player is trying too hard.

I also realized I haven't posted that much. I've tried to get something today but for Christmas, access hasn't been reliable enough. I'll get to it tomorrow.

It doesn't matter that you don't post everyday or don't post on Christmas. that is fine. What matters is that when you do post, there's nothing there. Stances, scumhunting, beliefs, questions, opinions on people's alignments that you don't instantly retract in your next breath. You can do better than this.

Yo.

Guess who?

mastina! hi!

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

Oh for crying out loud, me being a bit slow D1 is entirely null, go put your vote somewhere that is useful.

Also, nothing? Please don't make this game be a repeat of Prozac's Basic Theme where I did loads of shit and still got voted for doing nothing which was blatantly false.

Does Davsto usually overreact like this to being at L-5?

I said I've scumhunted. I have scumhunted a bit. Sure, not loads, but no less than that game I linked. Nowhere did I say I've "significantly" scumhunted or the like. You look like you're just making up stuff in the hope people won't see the problems with it.

If you spent as much time scumhunting as you spend complaining that you are

too

scumhunting, people wouldn't be wagonning you.

I'm waiting for a new post from plot kittens after being generally town readen.

I had offline problems this weekend. Do you have any questions for me specifically?


--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

your list is not that bad. but its not perfect. You judged people based on what you call you don't expect their coming from scums. the scary thing here is that you don't consider them coming from a scum who is faking them. I mean who play different when he is scum?

I don't like the way you just say these players are in my conf town list because they posted like a town mind set. at least at this stage of the game when everyone just have 2 or 3 posts. That will happen when we are in later parts of the game and we have info about slots.

I know you're newish and I'm kind of townleaning this attitude even though the effect it has is widening the lynch pool rather than reducing it, but on day 1, and especially early on, and we're still pretty early into the game, people are getting reads on each other based on emotion and gut and prior experiences with each other and none of these reads are set in stone or unchangeable. They're "we're just getting started" reads, more serious than RVS but still not as serious or hard to change as the reads we have in later days will be. I've played games with over half of this player list before, and some of the more experienced players may have played with everybody or almost everybody. Sometimes that means we can get reads based on one or two posts from a friend that it would take 10-20 posts from a stranger to get a read on them.

This is my third game with Persivul. Mala's played with him a few times too. I wouldn't be surprised if most people have stronger reads on people they know than people they don't know.

Would you prefer that we all be paralyzed by wifom?

The basis of the game is that people try to play the same as town and scum, but are unable to truly do so. Accordingly I'm trying to read people on that basis.

I agree with this.

I know someone else asked somebody else this same question about something else but I think it fits here too: Pers, do you think Frozen is scummy above and beyond being wrong about mafia theory?

you want me to provide examples for you how obv towns (this way obv towns) can turn to be dangerous scums ?

This is town paranoia, but it's not productive on day 1. Most minis are 10:3 so if you're town (or pretending to be, but i'm townreading you) then from your perspective that's a 3 in 4 chance that someone else is town. Of course competent scum can look town but finding town is the flip side of the coin to finding scum and it is easier to do and if you have some townreads that you can work together with then you can do productive things even if later you get paranoid of them or if they turn out to be scum after all.

Based on 261 it seems you're more upset with Persivul's townread on Ari than his townread on us. The Ari read could be too easy, I agree, I'm not sure Ari's done enough to warrant it yet.

pedit: Pers, that's below the belt.

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

Broseiden is someone who I really like to have a conversation with actually atm. he is inside the lurkers category.

It's true that he only has 9 posts (And at least one of those is a prodge) but what do you think of the posts that he does have posted so far?

Are you fucking insane?

This is not an okay angle of approach.

I mean no offense by this, but you probably shouldn't play mafia until you clear those issues up. Mafia fucks with sane people's heads at times.

This is condescending and gross.

1 - so you wanted to ask questions about how I'm doing in IRL ?! :/

No. Don't know where you'rte getting that from.

2 - Then tell me how they helped you to sort me? what did you done to sort me?

I already gave one example. When asked about the lie about questions, you moved the goalposts. You could have done other things - claim it was a mistake, blame the language barrier, claimed it was a reaction test. The answer you gave leads me to believe that you're town, but aggressive, arrogant, and with a language barrier. If you had claimed it was a mistake or a reaction test, I would have found that scummy. Blaming the language barrier would have been null.

Moving the goalpost is....a towntell?

Likewise. I don't know if it's a language issue or if you're just a fucking idiot, but talking with you is painful.

This is uncalled for.

As noted in 313 I have a town lean on Frozen.

Okay but I was going in order. You were townread her at the time of that post? So you've just been having this dull semantics/mafia theory argument for several pages with your townread for fun?

Or you were scumreading her and then you started townreading her in 313? Look, I can believe the first below the belt comment was a mistake because some people put their feet in their mouths and step on people's toes sometimes but after she says that she does have an issue you keep pushing along those lines, on someone you're claiming to townread, when she's clearly getting upset, and it's the kind of incoherent upsetness that it'll be really easy for scum to jump on her for AtE, but you just keep pushing. What is the point of treating a townread like this? What is the town motivation for it?

If you're irritated then say she's irritating you. Take a break from the keyboard and watch some telly or go do something else. This "do you have mental health issues? oh you do? well how upset can i make you?" thing is toxic, unlikely to make her easier to read, a terrible way of treating someone you claim to townread (or even a scumread), and it looks like a way to get her to overreact and then she'll be wagonned and you can get towncred for staying off the wagon and calling her town.

VOTE: Persivul L-3

Mala can move it if she wants.

pedit:

This is my third game with Persivul. Mala's played with him a few times too. I wouldn't be surprised if most people have stronger reads on people they know than people they don't know.

he never said its a meta read. or a gut read. he just get me some posts and called them cane from town mindset and called you town for that.

I think sometimes people can get reads out of waiting a little bit before they say what their reasons are, seeing how people respond before the reasons are given. But I agree with you that the Ari townread may be premature.



Pers, how much attention did you pay to Wifom city after you replaced out?


pedit: ah the druid game! I watched that one because i didn't understand the setup and i wanted to see if watching the game play would make the setup more understandable to me.

I am easily distracted by maths.

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

Here-ish.
Off to a post-Christmas dinner/social thing with the family soon.

I am caught up and should have some content soon.

[48 hours later]

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

I asked you a question about your 251. Your response was that you are townreading Frozen. You made a lot of posts to Frozen after 251. Some of those posts were inappropriate even if you weren't townreading her.

For example 320 which happened after you claimed to townread her in 313.

Seriously, you think I'm scum trying to get her to overreact so that other people can mislynch her while I stay off the wagon? Are you sure it wasn't the man on the grassy gnoll?

I don't get the reference but is it that farfetched?

There are some types of players who when you back them into a corner it gets harder to read them and then they practically mislynch themselves. And I've seen it before that people get a player riled up and then they attack them for being irrational.

None. I was off site for a couple months after that.

Then maybe your townlean on us isn't too early? it's hard to tell. I'll go look up what your read on me was there. Seems you were townreading us and then we got into an argument but i'm not sure if it affected your read on us. But it was like page 12-13 of a large and I don't remember if we were even all the way out of RVS by then.

but we weren't town there.

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

I meant that in 251 you were attacking her for being bad at mafia not for being scum. I also don't understand why "moving the goalposts" was your reason for townreading her since that's not really a townie thing to do in my mind. Can you walk me through that?

I think inappropriate posts of that nature are more likely to come from scum than from town.

The post that you made after townreading her was not written the way you talk to a townread.

You would know she was such a player because you were told it in your pregame chat or because you could see the signs of it already starting to happen that she was starting to lose her cool in a manner that was unlikely to leave her widely townread. This is also my first time playing with her but I've been pushed in that manner before and I've seen enough newer players react to stuff like that that I can recognise the pattern when I see it.

For example scorpious in both the game I ICed and in history mafia, me in the friends and enemies game when i complained about tth misgendering me and you called it fake...

I saw your crumbs but I don't see any town reason to soft that role; it loses all utility if its not a surprise.

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

Prodging to say that I still like Rob better than Persivul.

Also is it just me or do Kuroi's posts on page 18 seem a bit...coached? It's a marked change from the rest of his ISO! I mean, the posts still aren't all that great but it looks kind of like someone went through and said "here i'll help here are some bullet points for you to cover now go talk about them".

Rob13: I'm getting a scummy vibe off him. I'd label him slightly scum at this moment.
Persivul: I'm getting a town read off him.
Frozen Angel: I was going to say slightly scum, until she started mentioning mental illness. I hate reading things like this because when we mention medical disorders or anything like that, it detracts from the game and makes the game more personal. As I've been in games that ended it people hating others, I really hate seeing fun games getting personal. Still, in the spirit of not thinking of this game being personal, I'll put her in slightly scummy territory.
Not_Mafia: He's given me nothing to work with. Something he has done, however, was first saying that he was going to re-read the game. Then today, he calls Heap's argument stupid. I don't know (or really think) it's that alignment indicative, but it rubs me the wrong way.
Soren: Gives me a town vibe.

I didn't want to place a vote until I re-read this and seeing as I need to vote someone, I'll vote for who irks me the worst. To me, I want to vote Not_Mafia or Rob13. I'll keep a close eye to see what Not_Mafia says but for right now, I need to VOTE: Rob13

Which posts of Rob's are the scummiest? Which posts of Persivul's and Soren's do you like the best? What do you like/dislike about these posts? Just treat mentions of real life stuff as null. You say that you are nullreading the people that you don't mention, presumably including Heap. Do you disagree with Not maf about Heap's argument, then? What do you think about Heap's argument? Do you have a read on Heap?

Well, the first thing that pops out at me is your dismissal and deflection off Persival's questions. You also appear defensive and emotionally involved in the game. You also did do a couple of goal-moving posts, but I don't think you understand what that means.

It also doesn't really help that I'm a grammar nazi and reading what you write is akin to claws on a chalkboard. (I don't use that to figure out if you're scummy or not, but I find it difficult to decipher what you say at times.) I understand it's not your first language and I appreciate that, but it drives me nuts.

Lastly, I can't just "forget" issues like the ones you've posted regarding real life issues and emotional/logical difficulties. This is why I find you as just leaning scum. There are many variables and there are many opportunities to learn more about you (granted I'm not lynched or killed in any way) so hopefully we'll find out a bit more.

That's two paragraphs you devote to stuff that you admit that they aren't alignment indicative things. The first paragraph is okay and is the first real analysis you've done. Please cite which posts of Frozen's were goal-moving posts and which questions of Persivul's that she didn't answer.

Frozen Angel: I was going to say slightly scum, until she started mentioning mental illness. I hate reading things like this because when we mention medical disorders or anything like that, it detracts from the game and makes the game more personal. As I've been in games that ended it people hating others, I really hate seeing fun games getting personal. Still, in the spirit of not thinking of this game being personal, I'll put her in slightly scummy territory.

forget mental thing. talk to me. why

He gave reads on you, me, Rob, NM, and Soren...and all you care about is why he finds you scummy...

Actually, this does lessen the scumminess I have on her. Mafia don't want to have attention on themselves and especially when there's no reason to try to defend themselves. It wasn't just her in that list. ...I mean, I still find her more scummy than I do find her town, so I'll still keep her on my "slightly scummy" list, but she wouldn't be the first person I'd lynch.

This looks like it's saying something but really your read on her hasn't changed because you had her as lean scum and now it's still lean scum.

1. If I'm missing something, please point it to me, but I think I remember what you're referring to me but he never seemed of having circular reasoning. Perhaps it sounded circular because it made logical sense - that phrase, "It's come full circle."

2. I don't mean to come across as rude, but it might help if you stopped acting emotional in all your games. If you see yourself getting worked up, take a deep breath. Before you post, ask yourself if there's a better way to phrase it. There are more effective ways to phrase something in most cases.

3. I never said your language was alignment indicative. In fact, I said I wasn't judging your language

wasn't

being used to judge your scumminess. I stated that because you've gotten a lot of crap and it may be because it is often difficult to read the message you're trying to convey. (I don't want to go too far off topic, but what are your other three languages?)

4. Your mental illness isn't really indicative of scum, but it makes things a hell of a lot harder. I don't want to be a dick and vote you because of something about you personally. (#433 I've mentioned I don't want games to be personal.) I gave my view and I've done a lot reading through the game and gathering my thoughts. Right now, I have what I have. I'm sure people would have questions for me and we would discuss them. What do you know? Someone asked me.

My thoughts on Persival were mostly derived by his interactions with you, but also by the rest of the town. He seemed to be very transparent.

And no, I don't have a concrete lynch-list, but I did mention who I find more scummy than others. I wanted to, and still might vote for Not_Mafia, but I have the worst feelings about Rob13 based on his style of playing and many of his comments.

@Persival - I know, but when it comes to day one, I go with what is most likely and I'd estimate it's about a nickel or a dime on every dollar for the mafia who intentionally get themselves in hot water.

1. wat

2. I think this is the kind of condescending thing that scum are more likely to say than town because it discredits Frozen in a "we can't take you seriously if you are having feelings while posting" sort of way.

3 & 4. if it's null then it's not worth talking about.


I did have a tiny reason for thinking that you could be town after all but it would be anti-town to say what it was and it has vanished as of something in this last post.

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

Persivul (4): FA_Q2, Rob13, Frozen Angel, Plottin Kittehs

Not sure if this VC is still accurate, but I'd call it: scummy, not sure, not sure, emotional (Plottin didn't like that I was a dick to Frozen).

wanted to reply to this too.

it's not really emotional; I think it's more likely for scum to be a dick about real life stuff than town,

because

scum know that they know the person is town and they're trying to fake town paranoia and they think that if they give in and acknowledge the person is upset for real it's the same as admitting that they're town when in reality town are just as likely to use AtE as scum are and being a dick also contributes to a toxic gamestate which benefits scum more than it benefits town.

Like it's not a flat across the board all instances of being a dick = scum, that would be a dumb argument and it depends on the player themselves too. it's...being a dick in a certain way, a sort of over the topness about it that i find hard to explain but i know it when I see it, but it comes from the certainty of the other person's alignment, because if you didn't know what alignment they were then you'd hesitate and think okay is this real or is this not real i don't know whereas when you do know you can say oh it's just AtE discreditdiscreditdiscredit.

in history mafia, someone's mother was in the hospital and town were willing to give them some space and benefit of the doubt and my hydra partner got all vicious at him and I wanted to bus my hydra partner.

I could cite other examples of scum being more gleeful about attacking people for AtE and town being more willing to give the benefit of the doubt from we didn't playtest this (several different scumslots vs several different town slots), refraction, cys, friends and enemies (Persival!), and also from games that i spectated like Genesis.

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

Well the last few pages were mostly you vs Rob so I guess that is how i'm viewing you right now, it's true. Lazy way of saying that i'm still happy with my vote. I read the last five pages but very little stood out to me in a way that would change my mind about stuff.

I'm also all of a sudden in too many games and i'm

still

in catchup mode from the weekend. I will be more fully here later on in the day phase and I'll ISO people and stuff then. I can't right now.

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

Pers is really invested in making me his counter wagon. He's determined to paint me as a compulsive liar, but every single thing he points out just doesn't make sense.

Ari

: Can you consolidate onto Pers if you think they're scum together? Pers would give us info on Kuroi and I'm still not 100% sold on Kuroi.

Whoever said coaching for Kuroi: Are you implying there's daytalk in this game? It's more unlikely than not; not many games have daytalk. If coaching occurred it would have to be somewhere in-thread. Maybe look for people with highly similar reads? But even that's a big stretch.

I was scum in Tarot, a game that just ended that was modded by ffery, one of our mods in this game. We had daytalk in that game. I don't know if that means anything for this game, but briefly looking through other games she's modded, the scumteam in blitz 2 also had daytalk, the scumteam in Mini 1630 that she modded had daytalk, and i'm getting bored of looking through this list of games but you can continue if you like; skip the newbie games because those aren't mod dependent.

I've had daytalk in most games that I was scum in, except for newbie games (and these days newbie games have daytalk too because it's a trial run). We had it in history mafia, and alfred hitchcock, and butterfly. we didn't have it in cys.


I think it is reasonable to look for signs that daytalk exists and to assume that it's likely it does exist. If Kuroi does flip scum, I think it's certain that there is daytalk.

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

Scum has a motivation to avoid scrutiny above all else.

And I have the highest post count in the game. I'm not concerned with avoiding scrutiny. Scrutinize away. Lynch me if you like, but playing like that you'll likely end up with a knife in your back yourself.

I thought you were saying that you were vengeful and were going to shoot him.

And when you refused to claim at L-1 I started to worry you might be a scum supersaint.

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

does your role pm give any hints as to what an SK might look like / what form they might take that you could share with us in paraphrased form? alternatively, what's your take on the earlier "maybe we're all doctors / maybe some of us aren't doctors" discussion?

Also the flavor speculation seems pointless to me. Do we have any reason to think that it's more than dressing to fairly standard roles? I don't see any indication of that in my role pm.

The wiki says that FBI Agent is a very rare role. I had to look it up to see what it did. How did you figure out that you were an FBI Agent?

I looked on site search and the role was used twice in 2015, not counting marathon games, and 3 times in 2014 (again not counting marathon). Why did you think you had a fairly standard role?


The wiki page hasn't been updated since 2011. Does anyone know if this part is valid in current site meta?

"As a result, games with FBI Agent are somewhat evenly split between those that have Serial Killers and those that don't. Unless there is evidence of an SK potentially being in the setup, FBI Agent is essentially a Named Townie."

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

I don't know the flavour either but I was hoping someone else might. It's not worth getting modkilled over though.

I'd ask you which doctor number you were but the wikipedia article for my own doctor number is written in fanspeak instead of english and I doubt any of the other articles are more accessible.

Can't think with all these fireworks. mala said in our hydra pt that she'd be around friday so i'll leave her a note about this development.

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

hi RC!

@Mod: we're both V/LA this weekend. back Monday probably.

I might be able to post sunday, might not, depends on offline stuff.

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

it's midnight and i've been reading but i've been low on words and obligations elsewhere have stolen me but i planned to do a Proper Catchup Post tomorrow. Mala's sick and i'm having offline stuff and having trouble keeping up with all these pages. we haven't had time for a proper sync but we talked a little in site chat the other day and she did like RC's replace in.

What're your reads Plotty/Kitty?

town: frozen, notmaf, mastina/talah
probtown: rob, bro
town enough i guess: shiro
scum is in: you, dav, faq2, kuroi, maybe ari

VOTE: Plot/Mala

This definitely stuck out and NM wanted my vote anyway so let's do it.

this isn't going to make me less v/la. not going to make me more v/la either. just so you know.


anyway, i'm mostly here because one of our mutual scumreads is at L-1 so

intent to hammer

but not before I go to bed and I'd really rather wait for a replacement to be found because it's rolemadness so night will probably be frozen anyway while we wait and faq's slot has been pretty empty this day phase. some fresh eyes might help.

I would at the very least like to have time to sit down and engage with this game on Monday like i've been meaning to before the day ends.

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

okay, going in order for catchup isn't going to work because i have been skimming along so nothing's a surprise really but the parts of my brain that do critical thought just haven't been switched on lately. I still hate everything Persivul posted but he can't respond and it feels like most of what I'd say has already been said. Instead i'm going to ISO people and have thoughts about them for a while.

town: frozen, notmaf, mastina/talah
probtown: rob, bro
town enough i guess: shiro
scum is in: [rc], dav, faq2, kuroi, maybe ari

I forgot soren even exists when I made this list so i guess i'm going to start there.


Soren's ISO starts out fluffy but contains some early scumhunting such as in 22.

He calls Ari's 70 really town. He's scumreading Davsto for his early fluff posting and FAQ for writing short comments in responses to posts? I'm not sure that's a scumtell so I'll check later if FAQ seems to feel he's being scumread for the wrong reasons. He votes Dav.

FAQ replies that that is garbage and that he replies to what needs to be replied to and ignores the rest. Soren insists this is a scumtell. This argument is dumb enough that it could be early distancing.

Persivul pushed Rob for looking town and doing too much to progress the game. FAQ voted Persivul for this. Soren wants to know what the scum motivation for attacking someone for townposting is. I want to know what the town motivation for attacking someone on those lines on day 1 is!

I think Persivul and Soren are unlikely to be scum together for 208 because Soren quotes Persivul's FBI crumb saying that it doesn't look good for him whereas if they were scum together Pers would have mentioned the crumb in private surely. calling attention to your buddy's crumbs is bad because they might want to decide not to use them after all. So either one of them is town or Pers is SK.

FAQ and Soren continue bickering. FAQ says soren's push is garbage because it's bullshit, soren wants to know why it's bullshit.


I'm wondering if the main reason that FAQ vs Soren feels like scum theatre is that I'm scumreading FAQ already.

I like Soren's question to Dav in 341 because it's a good response to someone saying they're having trouble getting their head into the game, asking a specific question. dunno if it's alignment indicative but it's good for the game state anyway.

Soren townreads Persivul for 265 because he explains his thought process articulately. I am not sure that's a towntell! I think this is a really black and white approach to the game that penalises the inarticulate and lets people who are good at showing their work slip through. It's going to depend on the player's personality and their playstyle and I think if you sincerely scumhunt in this manner then you're going to wind up scumreading the same group of people in every game and townreading another group of people in every game, regardless of which alignment they happen to draw. You've been here for a year and a half so I don't believe this thought process is genuine.

For example, look at this ISO from a townie in a completed game. inarticulate. short comments. incoherent. mostly correct scumreads actually but never amasses enough towncred to do anything about it (not even when he was conftown by virtue of not being CCed). I don't believe you've never seen an inarticulate townie before or a long winded scumbag before and your approach to the game is pretty shallow.

You can do better than this.



Okay, I like 535, probably because he takes the side of the argument that I wound up taking, but it feels like you're buddying Rob a bit in this post, calling him Sherlock Holmes goes a step beyond townreading him I think.

He votes Pers and puts him at L-1. FAQ seems to have fallen off his radar but FAQ also seems to have fallen out of the game.

I want to call this a townpost because it does finally have some nuance and depth of thought. This post does mark a reversal on his position on Persivul. Note to self to check whether Soren's the first to bring up any of these points against Persivul, though. Later, when I have time, which probably won't be until Day 2.

With the mention of Shiro, I have to say that he is ringing town to me. He may not have posted much, but what he has posted is informing me that he has a town mindset coming into the game, while he is not actively pushing people, he is noticing the little holes that scum were unable to cover up in their plays.

k, isoing shiro next.

I do kind of like this push on Rob in 598; I think it's easier to just pick a side in arguments like these and taking into account new information and re-evaluating whether you've chosen the correct side is a good sign. It's a good question why he continued to push Pers after the crumb. (I remember that I liked Rob's answer to the question though).

I like that he tells Rob and Pers to stop antagonising each other, but that may be more of a personality tell than anything.

tl;dr:

I think Soren's posting gets better as the game wears on because he seems to be getting his head into the game but my overall impression of this ISO is that I'm scumleaning Soren.

Soren and FAQ could have been scum theatre; Soren and Pers probably aren't scum together.

I know that Mala and Soren recently hydraed together as scum so I want to talk to Mala about Soren when she's around next.

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

I accuse him of engaging in scum theatre with FAQ, point out that the binary thinking of "short posts = scum, long posts = town" is unlikely to be genuine (therefore is scum pushing people on bullshit instead of actual scumhunting), I did like some of his later posts but not enough for me to move him into the town category.

What part of this sounds like a townread?

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

+accused him of buddying Rob. I think those were my main points.

[Plottin Kittehs]

@RC: everyone but you is townreading me, (except for Ari who is null on me still) but ok!

Onto Shiro's ISO.

Shiro also starts out fluffy but I think some amount of fluff is normal for Shiro. I've seen Shiro around some.

I like 117 asking why Bro was picking on Dav. I think scum is less likely to say "hey why are you picking on him you could be picking on me instead." Definitely not scum with Dav, probably not scum at all.

Votes Soren in defense of Davsto. Shiro's 164 is a good point that other people were being fluffy too and I think as a more fluffy poster himself, Shiro would identify with Dav in this way.

I think I can see where Soren is coming from about Shiro? Shiro isn't doing all that much but he does seem to be paying attention and the questions he asks are good enough. I like the way he pushed Soren and Persival.

I like his pushing on Persivul in 657 for saying the mod wouldn't let him flavourclaim. Nobody gets modkilled for saying their role PM contains the words "vanilla townie" or whatever. I realise RC can't do anything about that but it was pretty sketchy and looked like Pers was stalling trying to think of something.

Then there's more fluff.

Like the vote on Soren.

tl;dr:

I don't really know how to read Shiro because we've only played together once before but his posts don't really bother me, the fluff seems to be within normal Shiro levels and I can relate a lot to getting more reads out of just watching other people interact. So he's still in the "town enough" category for me.

Maybe we can interact some more on day 2

pedit: this is my first game with Dav¹ but I agree with all those points against him.

¹we were very briefly in Alfred Hitchcock together but I replaced into an unwinnable position late in the game and was lynched almost immediately and I never ISOed him there.

[Plottin Kittehs]

@RC: everyone but you is townreading me, (except for Ari who is null on me still) but ok!

This means absolutely nothing.

I agree that it means nothing about my alignment but it does mean something about what direction any confbias would happen in; people who are already townreading me are likely to continue to do so in the absence of something compelling and will probably continue to read my posts in a slightly more favourable light as a result of this pre-existing townread.

Anyway, do your thing. It feels like you're hoping someone will do your work for you just by your having insinuated that something was there to be seen, and I'm pointing out that I don't think that's going to happen so you're wasting your time.

pedit: @Shiro: yeah, that's the one, and I was scumreading you incorrectly based on your predecessor and based on thinking there were more scum than there actually were because of the death godfather thing. Also, I've spectated some of your games but I wasn't paying particularly much attention to them. My baseline for you is mainly that I shouldn't be concerned if you're posting gifs and other off topic stuff because that's not alignment indicative for you. I'm not expecting you to play day 1 the way you play day 7-or-whatever-it-was as a replacement because that's ridiculous.

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

Ari's ISO has more in it that I thought, more scumhunting, more thoughts, blahblah genuine/inquisitive/town thoughtprocess/morebuzzwordshere/less prodging that I remembered. He can be town enough for now.

i'm running out of words for the day already and I still have 4-5 other things I need them for today, some of them not mafia related

will revisit Ari when I can language again.

FAQ iso mostly bad because not doing enough but don't want to lynch there because replacement

going to make lunch and wander off.

VOTE: Soren L-4

still intent to hammer dav if that happens.

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

Hi Aeronaut!

Getting some pretty scum vibes from Dave and Pers there. Not as much with rob as I thought I would. The Taly/Mastin Hydra leans town and so does Aristophanes

Friend, I have some sad news:

RadiantCowbells replaces Persivul. Please welcome him!

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

<3

I was scumreading your slot but i'm about 22 pages behind in this game (currently 81 pages behind on my games sitewide, haven't been well, starting to get better. This will be the day phase I get caught up I think!)

but i'm excited to play with you and looking forward to the rest of your catchup.

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

Kuroi, do you know who I am? What's your best guess for why I write a --P at the end of my posts?

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

@Cheet I saw your questions for Mala and have passed them onto her.

Looking back over our notes, she had said that her early scumread on rob was mostly gut whereas her read on kuroi seemed to be easier to put into words. we also felt wagonning him wouldn't hurt him and would more likely produce an alignment indicative response because of newness, though i don't think a wagon really built up against him. at that stage in the game i hadn't liked anything i'd seen from him but it was early enough that i needed to see more. at the time it bothered me that rob was writing him off as newtown but later on I was townreading rob when i was caught up last which was admittedly a while ago.

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

Kuroi, do you know who I am? What's your best guess for why I write a --P at the end of my posts?

--P

...no? I don't watch Dr. Who, if this matters.

Maybe this will help:


A hydra is a special account where two users share the password to the account and they both post together as if they were one person. Posts signed --P are written by Plotinus and posts signed ~M are written by Malakittens. Since we are a single slot and have a single role PM, we are allowed to talk about the game together in private. It's pretty fun!

I was wondering why you hadn't said hi because I'm the only person here you've met before; we can't talk about our other game but we don't have to pretend to be complete strangers either. And then I thought that maybe you didn't know what a hydra is yet and that's why you didn't know who I am.


I also think that if you were scum, your scumfriends would have cleared some of this confusion up for you.

Not_Mafia and KuroiXHF have been prodded.

I'm sorry. I am still here, but planning a wedding isn't easy. I'll try to be more on the ball.

Congrats!

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

@Soren: I meant potential for a doc to be protecting me (a claimed PR).

Hard to know. It's something I'd seriously consider in that position. Keep in mind this is role madness so a PR isn't the end-all when it comes to kills. The fact my PR is weaker than other potential targets in a role madness setup is something scum would (or should, at least) have considered in deciding whether to kill me.

Look at the end of the last day and tell me with a straight face I wasn't being pushed. Both Dav and Kuroi are still pushing me now

Do either of [Dav, Kuroi] have enough towncred to lynch you?

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

intent

but going to bed nowish. intent to hammer when wake up.

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

Good morning, and in case I don't see you, good afternoon, good evening, and good night!

VOTE: Davsto L-0

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

VOTE: Soren

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

L-1, btw

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

jinx!

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

ffery's last game had several mafia joats.

I don't want to elaborate more at this very moment. I may if it becomes necessary, but Not_Mafia is extremely suspect.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

If you're not mafia, but a townie with some sort of handicap or idiosyncrasy, you may want to explain yourself.

I roleblocked Kuroi last night, I'm a joat

these seem connected.

Kuroi, do you have a role PM related reason to believe that not mafia is mafia or are you just suspicious of him?

pedit: kuroi, did you have a reason to suspect that not mafia roleblocked you? why do you think he would do that?

pedit: hi kuroi! glad you know who I am now! lol

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

SO EVERYTIME I TRY TO POST THE THREAD IS LOCKED.

EVERY.
SINGLE.
TIME.

Anyways, I have some serious thoughts later today as it's 130am and I got work, but Plotty and I have been talking.

~M

[Plottin Kittehs]

Talah, has mastina been around much? Tell her I said hi.

Claiming unnecessarily is unfortunate because it helps scum narrow down who the 8th doctor is. People who have already claimed "not it" can claim further if they want to I guess. People who have not should not.

Kuroi needs to full claim.

I'm JOAT, I have a cop shot, a roleblock and a watch shot.

N1 I copped Shiro
N2 I roleblocked Kuroi
N3 I watched Rob but my result said no one visited him

This is awfully convenient.

Also, ffery's last game had two scum JOATs.

Perhaps later, if necessary but I've been role blocked twice. The only role I know of not mafia is that he can role block. Has there been any word of his other roles or just that?

Look at 1329. Yesterday, you seemed to know that not maf roleblocked you before he claimed. You also seemed to implicitly trust him at the start of the game, but then you seemed to change your mind. Can you talk about why you suspect him? Please also talk about why you hammered Soren instead of doing intent to hammer and waiting.



I expect to vote for not maf at some point toDay. I don't expect to vote outside of [notmaf, kuroi] toDay.

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

I've seen newer players confuse "roleblocked" with "investigation immune" before (broseidon probably remembers deathfisaro on day 6 of we didn't playtest this).

Also, given Rob's last post, I wonder if Rob jailkept Kuroi.

pedit: I also saw the mason crumbs but then it seemed like the masons were bussing for some reason but roleblocking goes a step too far for masons.

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

Ugh.

I'm hating this Kuroi v Aero thing. I mean I kind of wish that Kurio CC'd Persi D1 because this would make things more simpler than they are. :\

Also I agree with BRO. I'm not going to vote Aero or Kurio based on the two roles in the same setup since Ffery did have two BG's in another game.

This game right now.

T_T

~M

[Plottin Kittehs]

We knew the 8th doctor was either you or Aristo. When you said you had results, we thought that meant Aristo was the 8th doctor because the 8th doctor doesn't have night actions, but what you said makes sense now. Glad that's sorted.

Bro

is town. Mala and him have history together. Naked votes aren't scummy.

We think scum is

aristo

and one of [

notmaf

,

kuroi

], probably

notmaf

.

Kuroi

's been roleblocked and probablyjailkept so he couldn't have done the kill on night 2 or night 3 which buys him a free pass for today in spite of how little scumhunting he's been doing. I'm not happy with his contributions to the thread or lack thereof but unless he's also a strongman, he hasn't done the nightkill, and Davsto's role PM indicates a two man team.

Persivul

was terrible but I agree with Bro that

Aeronaut

not realising that Persi was one of his predecessors was probably a townslip.

It is still weird to me that

Notmaf/Kuroi

crumbed masons together. Like kuroi crumbed it and then not maf crumbed it and then kuroi confirm crumbed it and then notmaf confirmed crumbed it and then they both started shedding PR in distress tells when you asked them about the crumbs that read like "wtf stop quoting our crumbs we're not going to explain they're for later" and now they're not masons after all and in my last game I caught someone as scum because they crumbed and then didn't claim what they crumbed so I'm pretty sure there's scum in notmaf/kuroi.

It's still weird to me that you quoted their crumbs and asked them about them in the first place but I'm not counterclaiming you so you're town unless that happens and probably even then.

Aeronaut says that you and Ari aren't serial killers, and Kuroi says that Aeronaut isn't a serial killer. That means that the SK, if there is one, is in [bro, us, kuroi, not maf]. It's not us and it's probably not bro either, so [kuroi/notmaf]. We've thought for a while that the last scum was in [you, ari] and if it's not you then it's ari.

@Mod: The VC says Soren instead Kuroi

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

Bro

is town. Mala and him have history together. Naked votes aren't scummy.

You're correct that they aren't scummy in and of themselves but I really had the feeling he was softing cop and had an inno on us.
Considering that's not the case I have to reassess.

Makes sense.

Also I think you'd have to present a pretty fantastical and credulous case to assume that we bussed Davsto given Davsto's role.
*shrug* but I guess that's just my opinion. Possibly gets Bro off the hook for scum faction as well.

Us too, for that matter. The three of us were all on Davsto pretty early. Not mafia ignored Davsto pretty much, Persivul townread Davsto, Kuroi did push on Davsto some.

Ari also had this thing where he pushed on Frozen for the "not a doctor" thing with the theory that frozen was a not-doctor with a doctor as a fakeclaim (70). This seems like the kind of thing a person on a two man scumteam would be looking for.

It is still weird to me that

Notmaf/Kuroi

crumbed masons together. Like kuroi crumbed it and then not maf crumbed it and then kuroi confirm crumbed it and then notmaf confirmed crumbed it and then they both started shedding PR in distress tells when you asked them about the crumbs that read like "wtf stop quoting our crumbs we're not going to explain they're for later" and now they're not masons after all and in my last game I caught someone as scum because they crumbed and then didn't claim what they crumbed so I'm pretty sure there's scum in notmaf/kuroi.

It's still weird to me that you quoted their crumbs and asked them about them in the first place but I'm not counterclaiming you so you're town unless that happens and probably even then.

I didn't pick up on any mason crumbs. Just thought their entry / association thing was weird and worth following up on (and promptly got called scum for it). I hadn't thought about masons up till someone brought it up recently and kind of wrote it off until now when you're bringing it up again!

So does a masons claim between the two do anything for us? I mean I don't get why there's scum in one of the two but not both or neither with that line of thinking.

For a while, even after it looked like "the masons" were bussing, I would have still believed a mason claim from them, but notmafia claiming to roleblock kuroi removes that possibility. The kind of "call and response" thing that they did where not mafia entered the thread and kuroi immediately jokingly-but-maybe-not-jokingly claims to trust him and not mafia immediately acknowledges that kuroi knows what he's talking about is the kind of thing that if they were masons and one of them was killed, the other could point to it and say that it's proof that they were masons. I've seen players in previous games that I read crumb masons that way. I didn't immediately put them both into my INEXPLICABLE TOP TOWNREADS section of my readslist but continued asking questions and scumhunting them some, both to provide cover to make them less nightkillable if they were masons and because scum can crumb too.

Later on, things shifted, with kuroi growing suspicious of not mafia and pressuring him to do stuff, and notmaf growing suspicious of kuroi. That made them less likely to be masons; when I was a mason, I mostly matched my read on my mason partners to thread temperature, but I never let it fall below nulltown or lurksack. I'd readily agree that my mason partner should be doing more than he was but we all just "not feeling that wagon, sorry" whenever any of us got wagonned a little too hard. We tried to disguise our connections while still leaving a few things a surviving mason could point to, but kuroi and not maf went a step further with their reads on each other dropping below null and into scumread territory.

But if you're truly masons and you have a role PM related reason to know somebody is town then you don't roleblock them so they're not masons.

It can be useful to crumbhunt as town because it helps you avoid wagonning PRs, helps you catch scum if they don't claim the things they crumbed, and it's good practice for when you're scum too.

Oh by the way...

Spoiler:

Talah, has mastina been around much? Tell her I said hi.

Not much in our QT but she's been popping in to make a comment and some brief analysis here and there. We were actually hoping to roll scum this game and I know she's been busy with other priorities so when it was town I sorta gave her a hug and told her not to sweat it.
However... she did respond to your "Hi" with something that I assume I'm not allowed to directly quote, so to paraphrase...

'Not particularly, vaguely checking in randomly like WoFish activity but hopefully a bit more than the end of Tarot Upick II'

Hopefully that makes some kind of sense to you - I guess they're games you've been in together.

-t

Tarot was the last game that we played together, she was in the Wall of Fire hydra there. She was very inactive in that game but she was town. I don't want to pressure her to be more active because I don't think it'll help, but I do like playing with her. I feel like I can read her better than I can read you, but if you're not getting counterclaimed then that doesn't matter.

Mastina is one of only three players on this site to have scumread me for what I felt were the right reasons. In WiFoM city. I talked her down from it, and I was (genuinely) indignant at the time because it was a sore spot for me being approached from that angle, but a couple months later I finally realised she'd been right. I'm working pretty hard on the tell she picked up on because nobody (except mastina I guess) townreads me for the town response to that situation and I think I managed to keep the towntell out of the gamethread in the Odds and here as well but...she was right.


pedit: PoE, plus not being on Davsto early enough, and then later on (for example in 918) it looks like you're tying Frozen to him a bit. Lunch is almost ready, don't feel like making a big case when my main reason is PoE.

I'd still like to hear the results of your Dav research though when you have time. We don't need to rush this day phase.

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

I am not the only person who saw it.

I still kind of want to do Davsto, but really anything outside of {Kittehs/Rob/Elsa/NotMaf/Kuroi} is cool with me.

Why none of this group?

Kittehs and Elsa are strong town, Rob is weak town, NotMaf and Kuroi because ~reasons~

~reasons~ means he saw it too.


I believe it is possible that it was just a joke. I have in the past struggled to find a way to communicate without accidentally crumbing things I didn't mean (vig/PGO when I just mean that i'm mad at someone, hider when I just mean someone's attacks are getting tedious, etc.)


The thing is that the joke you told together is subtle enough that several players didn't pick up on it (adaptive heap didn't for example), and it is a fitting way of crumbing the role. I've seen good players crumb in that manner in the past. It wouldn't be a misstep if you were masons for real.

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

Plot head is v/la until Sunday. Will still try to post. health stuff + family stuff + etc.

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

i don't know why i'm awake but i am so might as well

4th doc. motivator. 2/night.

night 1: bro and adaptive heap
night 2: aeronaut and adaptive heap
night 3: aeronaut and aristophanes

Adaptive heap and Aristophanes not a serial killer

aeronaut having two results.


We had thought the delayed day was cheetory's own role of posting anonymous mod messages.

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

Answers to (mostly talah's) questions. If I missed anything let me know.

Mala works 50 hours a week and is going back to school on top of it. She checks in with me when she can. I knew she'd be a low activity hydra partner when we signed up and am okay with it. Hydraing with Bellaphant last summer was a similar experience.

Bro can only have one neighbourhood active at a time, that's why the motivate didn't work on him.

Part of why we targetted him night 1 was because I thought it would be funny to make ffery make 13 neighbourhoods because I modded a game with 22 neighbourhoods and it was really fun to watch. Alas.

If we target someone night n, they get to use their ability twice on night/day n+1. they don't get to use the night n ability twice.

I think Bro townslipped in the neighbourhood because he didn't know about the beloved princess when we were setup speccing until I mentioned it; he thought it was just a sample role PM and hadn't read it.


--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

Yeah Talah I been super busy.

This setup reminds me a bit of the blitz set up tbh.

We have two Joat's & two FBI agents, there it had two BG's and two trackers.

But what I was complaining about is that Kurio didn't come re: aero sooner. I mean granted this is a mess.

TBH I remember Mastin/Talah's name being thrown around a lot and I never really understood the suspicion on them. Ploti and BRO convinced me that Rob was town prior to rob flipping, although, I really liked him dying because I was still having paranoia flakes.

I also saw Ploti seeing where Kurio and N_M was potentially claiming masons, but I had really weird feels re: Kurio and I couldn't shake them. I still can't. IDK I don't really like Kurio. There was also a post when Aero was catching up that I didn't like, but that tell ultimately null in this case, but still gave me niggles. I thought RC was town though.

Anyways for me:

Bro / AH are town, Aero is leaning town.
I like Kurio a little more than N_M.
Ari kinda leans town to me, but I need to check something re: Dav before I ofically put that read on the table.

~M

[Plottin Kittehs]

I think Ari is scum. If it's not him, it's probably notmaf. I still feel like Kuroi needs to be doing more than he is but he's off the hook for being roleblocked/jailkept.

Interactions with Frozen

Aristophanes very early in the game (-19 and subsequent) latches onto Frozen's "not a doctor" vs "not the doctor" word usage, which turned out to be nothing since she was town but that doesn't bother me on page 3. Rather what concerns me, is that this is exactly the sort of thing a person on a two man scum team would be looking for: someone else who knows the things about the setup that you seem to know. This attack looks like it's coming from a place of knowledge, now that we know that Davsto was not a doctor, but Davros with the War Doctor as a safe claim.

Interactions with Davsto

2.)

He answers Davsto's RQS questions and off topics with him about Doctor Who. He mentions Davsto is awkward on D1, citing Mafia Café, where he was lynched Day 1. At the time I didn't look this up and thought it was a town game of Davsto's from the way it was worded and that he was defending Dav but it turns out Dav was scum in that game. He says that Davsto pokes at people a little bit more on day 1 than he does here.

He promises to meta Dav but this doesn't seem to make it into the thread if it happens. He scumreads Davsto for self meta, but then he calls Persivul's attacks on Davsto over the top in 498, and then votes Kuroi for attacking Davsto. It is strange to go out on a limb like this for a scumread.

I'm not sure whether he's calling Dav town or scum in 707.

He says Dav is slow on D1, that he's usually more jokey as town (more jokey than in this game or more jokey than in other scum games? In hindsight it seems he meant the former but he seemed pretty jokey in this game, doing nothing but fluff and not scumhunting). There are several posts that at the time seemed like a defence of Dav but in retrospect seem like an attack and that concerns me.

He does put dav at L-1 though in 824, and when RC tries to derail Davsto's wagon, he does try to convince RC to rejoin it in 835, but he gives in fairly easily to RC's reasoning in 838, and decides that the two of them should look at Soren and Kuroi together instead in 858, after some discussion.

In 918 he seems to be tying Frozen to Davsto.

On day 2 he was unsure of Davsto and wanted to ISO him. He was second onto the Davsto wagon, though (1183).

Day 1 interactions with Persivul/RC/(Aeronaut)

He takes Persivul's side in Pers vs Frozen Angel, saying it reinforces his townread on Persivul, but the last he mentioned Persivul was in 71 where he was scumhunting him and it looked like scumreading him too. He notes this discrepency himself later, in 489 saying that the whiteknighting is unintentional because he's baffled by Frozen's play, and goes back to scumhunting him soon after 497. All of this was before Persivul's claim, which he doesn't seem to react to.

After RC subs in, he sheeps RC onto Frozen in 691. He unvotes later, claiming to know RC was just reaction testing all along. ehh. He does seem to townread RC a bit too early, especially given his prior scumread on the slot. In light of his night 1 investigation, townreading Aeronaut makes sense, but I'm interested in his day 1 reads progression on this slot which is all over the place.

I would vote but that would be L-1 and I'd like to ISO some more people and hear from Aeronaut, who hasn't posted in almost four days.

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

I thought that was a mastina post until I got to the end.



I have played several games with Aristo before. Our first was Friends and Enemies where he was scum and he did lurk considerably but he didn't do literally nothing, he was able to pretend to scumhunt and write posts that weren't obvious scumposts, and I was townreading him early in that game. Mastina was in that game too, but she replaced in after he died.

He was town in history mafia and he was also very lurky, often promising catchups that he never delivered and his entrance was pretty fluffy (so was everybody else's, that game).

We were town together in the Odds but he lurked a lot and then had to be replaced.

I think he was town in Miller's Hollow, but now that I say that I think he might have been some kind of traitor that could win with either faction? But I was scum and I was too impaired to read the thread. I couldn't focus on anything at all in early January. The game lasted for 90 pages, ending on night 1 when I was vengekilled, and I didn't read most of it, and I had trouble understanding the parst that I did read. I don't remember anything Aristo did or didn't do that game. Maybe talah does?

I did have a ridiculous chart though that I can refer to. Apparently only SnarkySnowman was explicitly townreading him and the slots that were scumreading him were Frozen/RC, Me/Titus (i don't remember this), Keyser, Klingon and Mecha so you were lynchable enough.

That doesn't really tell me anything.

I guess he lurked in that game too? He only had 47 posts. i don't blame him, it was 90 pages of noise and then it ended.


Anyway, the point is that the impression I had was that lurking wasn't alignment indicative for Ari and so I assumed activity would also not be alignment indicative. I could be wrong, I would need to see more of his scumgames, I think. His wiki seems to be up to date anyway.

I'll look through some more ISOs later.


--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

I think you just sometimes sign up for more games than you have time for. I noticed that you've been more active in this game than in any other we played in, but it could be that you like the flavour, or the playerlist, or the pace of the game, or you're less busy offline, or something just clicked in this game that doesn't always click for you. These are all factors that have a greater influence on my own play than my alignment, and I tend to assume it's similar for other people. I'll look at other ISOs, though.

I was alive in 7 games back in August and it was pretty terrible; I could just about do it but then everything fell apart and I couldn't do it after all. I think my sane limit was three for a while but it's about 1 and a half right now. I need to build breathing room into my schedule to accommodate unanticipated bouts of lifesuck.

My current rule is that if I'm alive in one game I may sign up for another. If I'm alive in two, I may not.


It wasn't just the length of the post, it was the tone of voice and stuff too.

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

It doesn't work on factional abilities. Would be a pretty sweet investigative role if it did.

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

I'm considering what you said, Ari, about yourself and about notmaf. His ISO is easy to scumread but at the same time he is doing more than he did in Handwriting and I want to give him a pass for it but in The Odds I graded Aneninen on too much of a curve and it cost me the game so I'm not feeling particularly like grading people on curves at the moment.

I just...either one of the two of you is playing a stronger game than usual or Kuroi is a strongman-ninja who killed the jailkeeper so we'd think scum didn't have a strongman when he could have left the jailkeeper alive to generate more mislynches (including, eventually, the jailkeeper himself). Or a strongman ninja who didn't anticipate the implications of killing the jailkeeper and lucked into them.


I think I'm just reluctant to drop my earlier crackpot theory that the game was mountainous that we discussed with bro in the neighbourhood, even though it no longer really fits the game state given the Rob kill. I agree that Kuroi should be off the table for today given the roleblocked and likely jailkept scenario; I don't think we have time for paranoia lynching right now, not when it's almost certainly [ari or notmaf] and I'm just overthinking it.


Mala's busy with school but she checked in with me in the hydra PT last night and she says that she thinks one of ari / nm is obv scum and that the SK is a red herring.

@Notmaf

, earlier in the game you used a burden of proficiency argument against talah/mastina. Can you talk some more about your past experience with talah and why you expected more from talah than he was producing?

So what we have here is Aristophanes who is more or less going to die. There WAS Not Mafia, but he pretty much explained N2. Then there's Plottin' Kittehs, Adaptive Heap, Aeronaut and BROseidon.

I'm not 100% sure if I'm ready to make the vote in light that there are some people that appear unchecked.

Do you have questions for any of these people that could help you make up your mind?

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

i'll do intent to hammer after you look at it again, I think, unless there are objections. i don't think i'll get much farther without a flip.

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

VOTE: Aristophanes L-0

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

What did you do on night 4?

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

Do you have to use all of your abilities before you can reuse them?

If so, I don't think any of the resulting scenarios are meaningfully different than today's scenario. If someone dies, you can claim to have not seen anything again, or you can claim a guilty on probably-broseidon (implying x-shot ninja instead of full ninja), but since it's LYLO you'll be in the same 1v1 you're in today, just without an extra town player alive to make the decision. If nobody dies then Day 7 is exactly the same as Day 6.

If not, and you're free to use your roleblock on night 6, then regardless of who the last scum is, no kill gambit is the best solution, and then Day 7 is 4p MYLO again. + The question arises of why you used cop instead of roleblock on Night 4.

Let me know if i'm missing something obvious here.


I don't think I'll need the full two weeks for this, and I'm pretty sure i know where we'll be voting, but I'd like to talk to kuroi some, and I'd like to read over some things, just to be sure.


Kuroi, how would you account for the differences in your playstyle that i'm noticing between this game and the game that I ICed?


Broseidon, how would you have approached this game differently if your alignment were different?

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

i motivated kuroi and aeronaut both nights. If kuroi didn't get a message today that he can check two people tonight, then that confirms me being roleblocked by not_mafia.


We're looking for the last scum. I wouldn't rule out mod trolling, it says "clown" in the game title after all.

Not mafia claimed to have copped shiro on night 1, roleblocked you on night 2, watched Rob on night 3 (he died, but no one visited him), copped aeronaut on night 4, roleblocked me on night 5.

Not mafia has used his abilities in a rotating pattern of cop, roleblock, watch, cop, roleblock.... The roleblock seems like the most powerful of those, especially after the watch failed. If he has to use all 3 before he can reuse them, then watcher is next, and that's the one that failed on night 3. He wasn't roleblocked, because he didn't get "no result"; he was told that nobody visited Rob, which implies Ninja and implies that tonight he again won't see something if there is something to be seen, so I want to know what he hopes to gain by going to night phase. If he can use his abilities in any order, then I want to know about why he made the choices he did, but there's the broader point that regardless of which ability he uses tonight he'll probably be in a 1v1 with broseidon tomorrow.


A kill happened on night 2, even though you were roleblocked. A kill happened on night 3, even though you were probably jailkept by Rob. A kill happened on night 5, even though I was roleblocked. These imply that neither of us can be the killer, unless one of us is a Strongman. The Rob kill implies that the mafia don't have a strongman because he was lynchable after what happened with Soren, so it's more likely he was killed for his role (jailkeeper) than because he was too town to be lynched or because of his reads. (He died without an opinion on not mafia, scumreading you, and townreading me and broseidon. He was the only nightkill target who scumread you, though.) This implies that jailkeeper is a threat to the scumteam which implies no strongman.

Putting those things together means the two of us are almost certainly town, which means we're choosing between broseidon and not mafia and one of us dying over night is unlikely to untangle things all that much.


This is MYLO. It's similar to LYLO, but less dangerous because it takes two townies voting wrong for the game to be lost, not one. In MYLO, if there is nobody confirmed town, it can be a good strategy to no lynch to see who will be killed and take your chances in 3p LYLO, but if there are confirmed town, then no lynching just ensures that one of the confirmed town will die, leaving us knowing nothing that we didn't know the day before.



--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

@Bro: thanks, that makes a lot of sense. Would you have been assuming 2:11 right off the bat or multiball?


@Kuroi:
:/ Then I must have been blocked on night 4 as well because I motivated both you and Aeronaut both nights. I was hoping that this way whichever of you survived would clear everybody of being a serial killer, because i've been suspecting for a while that there isn't one.

I think the serial killer is a red herring. Serial killers tend to kill people. There has been exactly one kill per night each night.


The flipped roles we have are:

1. art vendor (useless)
   
2. someone who can write mod messages (mostly useless)
   
3. another art vendor (useless)
   
4. a
   jailkeeper
   (useful)
   
5. ari's
   JOAT
   abilities:
   
   1. (vanilla cop (useless)
      
   2. determine if two players share an alignment
      (useful)
      
   3. forensic investigator (useless because ninjas)
      
   4. see the future (flashy but useless)
      
   5. something about screwdrivers (unknown whether it was useful or not)
   
   
6. an FBI agent (useless)

Nobody in this setup is a vanilla townie, but many might as well be. I think that you, Aeronaut, Shiro, Soren, and Cheetory were vanilla townies in spirit if not in name. My own role is pretty useless because its only function is to amplify other roles, but most of the roles that I could motivate are useless.

Town doesn't have enough power to cope with a serial killer and and a mafia and there are 6 unaccounted for missing kills. I think our situation is 3:1 (Three town, one mafia) not 2:1:1 (two town, one mafia, one sk).

Also, two FBI agents would be pretty unfair to a serial killer. It's hard to win a game as 3rd party even zero FBI agents on your trail.

We're trying to find davsto's scumbuddy.

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

@Kuroi: if there's anything you need from me or the others to help you make up your mind, let us know.


I went through your ISO earlier and made a map of it (i'm going to start calling them maps now instead of "numbers thing" because it sounds cooler).

kuroi 1537

Broseidon

-?=552 | | | =1336 =1349 =1353 =1357 =1499 =1499 | +1531

Not_Mafia

+99 =373 =377 -426 -438 -501 =552 =591 -659 -880 -883 -887 =889 | | v1282 u1300 | -1336 -1342 +1367 +1370 =1386 -1398 =1499 | -1531 -1537

Plottin Kittehs

=89 =552 -883 | =1227 | | =1342 =1349 =1386 +1391 =1457 =1499 =1505 | +-1531 =1534

---

Frozen Angel

+351 =361 =365 =382

-426

-433 +-+434 =438 =443 =501 =552 =552 =663 -883 =887

-932

✝

Shiro

=501 =900 ✝

Davsto

-v501

-552 -591 -880 -883 -889 -932 | ✝

Cheetory6/faq2

-157 -906 | ✝

Soren

v32 u104 +426 +501 =552 +878 +883 -889 | | -1300 v1301 ✝

Rob13

=350 -v426 -438 -u501 -552 -663 +887 -932 | -v1151 | =1301 ✝

Aristophanes

-501 | | | =1330 =1365 =1367 =1370 =1457 =1466 =1469 -1497

-+-1499

-1501 =1503 +?1505 ✝

Adaptive Heap

=89 -=219 -346 -373 -377 -380 -382 ==501 =887 | | | =1374 =1397 =1398 =1499 ✝

Aeronaut/RC/Pers

-48

-+157

-346

+426

+433 +438 +501 +552 +552

=561

=593 =595 =663 -883 =937 |

-1118

+1151

| | =1351 =1359 =1362 =1374 =1499 ✝

The only time you interacted with Broseidon in a way that seemed like trying to sort him was in 552 where you wanted to know why he had you and not mafia in his untouchable list and wanted to know what is read on you was exactly. Your other interactions with him were just passing mentions/quoting things he said/responding to him, with the exception of your getting a night result on him that he's not an SK. Ignoring role interactions for now, what's your read on him? What do you think of his play? What do you think of the way he's interacted with other people? What questions can you ask him to get a better read on him?


You've had considerably more interactions with Not Mafia than with the other living players, and you've asked him various questions throughout the game and put pressure on him both with your words and with your vote. How do you feel about his responses to your pressure? You have role interactions related reasons to suspect him. When you take out the setup spec stuff and just look at his play, does that make you suspect him less or more?

You interacted with me a little bit more after you figured out who I was, but you haven't put very much pressure on me this game. Is there anything you need from me?


Your first mention of Davsto was in 501 where you voted him for saying that this game was a low priority for him. You weren't on his wagon on day 2 but you only had a couple posts that day phase. Instead, you were voting Rob. Did it bother you that you were sharing a wagon with Davsto? Did your "not an sk" result on Persivul affect your opinion of Davsto, who had been on Persivul's side of the Rob argument?


Why do you think Shiro was nightkilled?


You only had a couple interactions with Cheetory's slot before it died, and both of them were you scumhunting him. Why do you think he was nightkilled?


Your first reaction to Persivul claiming FBI agent in 561 is "I'm not sure I understand this. Is this a Doctor Who reference?" You checked him night 1 and learned he wasn't an SK, but your first post in Day 2 in which you mention him, 1118 is "I thought he claimed serial killer". Your next mention of him that day is that you think he's innocent and you vote Rob. Later on, when you claimed your role, you acknowledge in 1351 that not being an SK didn't clear him of being scum. Is this something you were aware of during day 2 as well?


I'm going to look at the others, too. I'm not your IC in this game (though none of us can lie about mafia theory without the others noticing and calling them on it so if at least two of us agree on some game theory point then it's probably true), but it's kind of hard to switch out of that mode of interacting, especially when you seem to be stuck but you're not doing anything to unstick yourself, so I'm hoping that some of these questions will help both of us (me with reading you, you with figuring out how you want to approach this mylo.)

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

i'm gonna need the weekend off too. head's a bit scrambled and i want to be able to give this my full attention.

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

Mala's gone back to school so she's been pretty busy. I haven't seen her in about a week. This is her last game before she takes a break from mafia, and she was hoping it'd finish before school started up again, but it didn't. I hope she does find some time for us but she's been pretty busy.

I just wanted to reread stuff to be sure. The only times i've voted wrong are the times i didn't reread everything carefully. I'm pretty sure though.

I don't really see a universe in which you're scum. I could make a towncase for you but i'm not feeling very wordy this weekend and I know it's not enough to just post numbers and say town:

broseidon 1516

Kuroi

+511 +==531 | ==1217 | | -1316 -1334 +1344 =1345 =1346 =1350 =1352 -1354 =1361 =1388 -1400 =1401 +1434 +1439 =1470

Not_Mafia

+511 +==531 | ==1217 | v1280 | -1316 v1333 =1346 -1356 -1369 =1388 =1400 -1506 -1516

Plottin Kittehs

-38 =40 +50 =109 +111 +511 +531 | =1114 +1195 | | =1315 =1348 =1388 =1411 =1412 =1414 +1435 -?=1450 =1464

---

Frozen Angel

=111 =506 +507 +511 +531 =532 =533 ✝

Shiro

=119 -==511 ✝

Davsto

-

v115

-116 -119 -508 -510 -511 | =1193 -v1194 -1217 -1240 -1246 -1248 -1258 -1259 -1262 -1263 ✝

Cheetory6/faq2

-==511 | +1195 ✝

Soren

-==511 | | ✝

Rob13

+508 +510 +511 +==531 +533 | =1193 =1213 +==1217 =1218

=+1221

| -?=1281 ✝

Aristophanes

-==511 =531 | +1195 =1217 | | =1315 -v1372 -1394 -1406 =1439 -1506 -1516 ✝

Adaptive Heap

=109 -505 -==511 | +1138 | | =1315 v1355 -1356 =1373 =1394 +1434 ✝

Aeronaut/RC/Pers

-40 -509 -510 -==511 -==533 | =1114 +1115 +1194 +1195 +1213 | | +1343 =1354 =1361 +1434 =1464 ✝

I just want to hear a little more from Kuroi before I vote.

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

no lynch is only optimal if we don't have confirmed towns. If nobody is confirmed town, then we can learn something by who is killed and can examine their reads, or examine our own reads or something. But we don't get any real information when a confirmed townsperson is nightkilled because they weren't going to get lynched. No lynching wouldn't hurt, but it wouldn't really help either.

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

But we're not going to lynch the confirmed town anyway, so the chances are 1 in 2 regardless. Both of us were roleblocked on nights when there was a kill, so that rules us out.

--P

quoting my hydra slip

[Plottin Kittehs]

we can do no lynch i guess but if we do, then let's all request short night this time.

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

I agree.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

oh, good.

I'm happy with our vote. If you need anything, let us know.

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

That fear was a large part of what held me back from voting yesterday. I knew you were very likely to be town because of the role interactions. You were roleblocked on a night that there was a kill. A person who is roleblocked cannot use their night actions, including the factional kill, so if a kill went through it meant that you didn't do it and that makes you town.

This is true regardless of not mafia's alignment: if not mafia was town, then he would have no reason to lie about his action and say he roleblocked you when he didn't, so if you're clear then you're clear. If not mafia is scum, then you're town for sure.

In Davsto's role PM, it says that his kill can't be blocked or protected against. A roleblock wouldn't have stopped Davsto from doing the kill, but that's an unusual power to have. If the other scum also had this power then they could kill even if they were roleblocked. But we have a little bit of evidence that this is not the case: Rob13 was killed, and he could have been lynched instead. That shows that the last scum was afraid of his jailkeep ability, so Rob could have probably stopped their kill.



These are all strong hints that you're town, but I know that approaching the game this way is difficult, and it's less satisfying than catching someone for their behaviour.




I was fairly sure that Not Mafia was scum but I wanted to be able to have a behaviour reason for townreading you, not just a reason based on roles, and I did have lingering doubts about your behaviour, because you were scumhunting more vigorously in the newbie game, so I talked to myself for a little while in the neighbourhood to try to sort out my head about what I thought of you and it helped. I went back over your ISO in that game and thought about how you'd played there and how you were playing here and I realised that I could see some of the ways that game affected you here.

For example you were fairly quickly to vote in LYLO in that game but people yelled at you for it and then you unvoted and they yelled at you some more because they were dumb and I could see the way that was influencing your MYLO play here, and the same thing happened to me in my first non newbie game: I made a mistake with my vote in my newbie game because it was after midnight and I couldn't count, and I lynched a power role by mistake. In the large I was playing in I was suddenly very voteshy and wouldn't vote because I had just learnt that voting was dangerous. I felt that your hesitation in voting not mafia, was townier than not because I think as scum it'd be easier for you to just continue pushing him.

Also, yesterDay, when I wasn't voting, you didn't take any steps to try to convince me to vote for not mafia even though I was clearly leaning in that direction. You seemed more like you were figuring things out than in a hurry to get somewhere. If you were scum, you were hitting a lot of the right notes of looking like a town player figuring things out, many of which I didn't get right my first time being scum in LYLO.

I also felt like posts like 1555 reminded me of the unselfconscious joking you did earlier in the newbie game.



Also, I rely pretty heavily on my ISO mapping for my own scumhunting, and not mafia's ISO is more worrying than yours is. He pushed Dav a tiny bit early on but mostly left him alone, came back to naked vote him when it looked inevitable that he was being lynched but otherwise didn't interact with him. You were pushing Davsto more, and you were pushing him with your vote too and trying to get him lynched on day 1, in spite of Davsto having a ridiculously overpowered role.

I made this a day or so ago but I didn't post it because it was mostly just for myself:

not mafia 1513

Broseidon

| | | =1335 =1364 | |

Kuroi

+101 +379 +641 +681 | | =1283 -1299 | -1329 -1364 | |

Plottin Kittehs

=98 | | | =1338 | +1525 =1529 =1538 |

---

Frozen Angel

=641 =643 =645 -702 =705 =713 ✝

Shiro

✝

Davsto

-?96 =649 | v1241 -1250 -1264 ✝

Cheetory6/faq2

-639 =962 | =1131 ✝

Soren

v875 v970 | | v1287 =1305 ✝

Rob13

-v96 =942 =947 v952 -958 =962 | =1127 -1230 -1264 | ✝

Aristophanes

| | | v1442 v1487 =1491 =1493 -1510 =1513 ✝

Adaptive Heap

-379 -v639 -641 -643 -645 -676 -681 |

v1121

-1122 -1127 -1128 -1131 =1231 -1260 -1264 | | =1402 ✝

Aeronaut/RC/Pers

+639 +647 =649 =676 =677 =679 =681 +942 +947 | | | ✝

In the end, a person can't be 100% sure, even if you take the full 2 weeks to look at everything, though I've gone that route some times in the past. But there were enough signs that you were town and enough signs that not mafia was scum that it seemed worth the risk to me.

pedit: I see your other post, will respond to it in a new post.

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

I think this post explains much of my behaviour on day 2:

i'm about 22 pages behind in this game (currently 81 pages behind on my games sitewide, haven't been well, starting to get better. This will be the day phase I get caught up I think!)

I had some health stuff going on starting from the 29th of December through the first week of January and during that time:

• the scum game that I was playing in ballooned to a zillion pages and people were tunnelling my buddy for no reason and it was terrible (no, really, the entire case on him was "mentioned his girlfriend too many times")
  
• I was in LYLO in my other town game and I had hammer vote and that was also terrible
  
• this game got a bunch of pages too but it was less important than LYLO or ICing or my scumgame.
  
• and all of a sudden I was about 80 pages behind sitewide and hopelessly lost.

The only game I managed to stay current in was the newbie game.

I lost the LYLO game on the 9th of January, didn't manage to reread the thread after all, voted wrong.

I lost the scum game on the 15th of January: my buddy was lynched day 1 and I was vigged night 1 and that was the end of it and all I felt was relief that I didn't have to read that 90 page game after all.



I was scumreading Soren but I remember liking Soren's response to my pressure on him on day 1 and I was wanting to talk with Mala about it because she's played with him before and hydraed with him so I thought she could read him better.

We were pushing Davsto with our words as early as 49 and 135 and 149. If you ctrl-f our ISO for "dav", you'll see what I mean.

I've been scum together with newer players before and I wouldn't have let a scumbuddy with such a powerful role get into the kind of trouble Davsto got into: I would have been encouraging him in private and giving him advice and working together with him to help him pretend to scumhunt, writing posts for him to reword in his own writing voice, whatever was necessary. I would have given him more space to try to get his head into the game than I did.

In History Mafia, both of my scumbuddies were newbies and one of them was 11 years old and he was absolutely adorable but he did not know how to townpost at all and started attracting some negative attention and I taught him how to look town and everyone townread him and nobody suspected he was being coached, and he was just a mafia goon. I townread and defended him in public and tutored him in private. I would have done all of those things and more for Davsto in this game if I were scum.

Sometimes I bus and sometimes I don't but this game my primary strategy would be getting Davsto to be widely townread to pre-empt any need for bussing.


It is okay that you are wary of me, but what is surprising is that not mafia isn't more wary of me. We were scum together recently. I bussed him with puppy pictures and then I spent two weeks in LYLO putting on a town show for nacho and then I won.

--P