Newbie 1728: Training Your Dragon Mafia [Game Over]

[RyanK]

I'll vote randomly. VOTE: hiplop

[RyanK]

UNVOTE: hiplop VOTE: innocentvillager. The name looks too innocent.

[RyanK]

1. Those aren't random questions.

2. Why are you so defensive from the start?

I apologize, but to whom are you referring to?

To answer your question, he(PhantomCobalt) is most likely (PhantomCobalt should know better) referring to innocentvillager as

RQS! (Random Questioning Stage)

I know, SE's...

[RyanK]

Thanks for the help, hiplop. It's already 11 here. I'd better go get some sleep now. Goodnight everyone regardless of their time zone.

[RyanK]

*11 p.m.

[RyanK]

VOTE: hiplop.

[RyanK]

You aren't asked to regurgitate useless, NAI details such as your favourite film or icecream or whatever. Rather, we get an early indication of how people react under pressure (especially when wagoned) which is vital for spurring on discussion. That's why I think RVS is far, far superior to getting D1 underway than RQS.

That said, happy with my vote for now.

You say wagoning is the best way to get reactions, but you vote for me to put me at L-4, and not innocent to put him at L-2? Pretty weak logic.

Apparently, PhantomCobalt, Maverick1102's method just worked.

[RyanK]

Hi gais, I'm one of the SE's for this game. hiplop is the IC (Inexperience Challenged) which means he can't lie about game theory/mechanics and stuff, but feel free to ask any of us SE's about such issues if you want too (be careful, we CAN lie though).

In the spirit of old school mafia, I'd love to do some... wait for it.... wait for it....

RQS! (Random Questioning Stage)

I know, SE's you probably hate me and are probably going to call me out on doing useless bullshit, but I think it's a good way to start the game and to get a baseline for how we expect to play this game.

Questions:
1) When/how often do you expect to post?
2) Is low activity a scumtell? Is high activity a towntell?
3) Lynch "all" liars or no?
4) Is too scummy to be scum a fallacy, or not?
5) (for those who have played before) What's your towngame like, and what's your scumgame like?

-----

1) I'll likely be posting relatively actively (maybe 1-3 times a day on average), but as for walls, I don't think I'll post a lot of those on here especially since I am in quite a few other games and modding some.

2) To some degree, I think that scum has an intrinsic motivation to not post/create apathy and deny the town information. The more you post, the more you might expose yourself. That said, scum also might have an intrinsic motivation to assert themselves and drive town towards mislynching another townie. So I think activity can be AI (alignment indicative), depending on the intent of the posts, but this is a tricky and often controversial question. I think activity is more AI when it comes to newbies, but the more experience one gets, the less AI activity is imo.

3) This was a common question often posed on MS, at least in the older days. I think town should do everything in their power to not lie, since a townie can play this game without lying, while scum can't. It's the one leverage town has over scum. The moment a townie lies, it adds a lot of confusion and can also give scum a crutch to lie. There are some very rare cases where it's okay to lie (like in weird setups where you claim a different role than your own to throw off the night kill), but for the purposes of this newbie game, I highly encourage everyone townie NOT to lie, even when claiming power roles. So lynch all liars? Maybe a little extreme, but if we see someone lying in this game, we should fight tooth and nail to figure out why they lied, and at the very least reward them a massive load of scumpoints for doing so.

4) To some degree, but I think it's important to distinguish something. Remember that the goal of scum is to a) survive (or get partner to survive) and b) get other townies lynched. A lot of scum will try towntell a lot, since they are extremely concerned with their image. So I think there are cases where "too scummy to be scum" cannot be dismissed as a fallacy, for example when there is no scum motivation to do a lot of scummy things. If someone is lurking out, weirdly casting votes, etc., it doesn't necessarily mean that they're scum. They're doing some "scummy things", but sometimes stuff like this is indicative that the player is not concerned with their images. That being said, there are some times where this is a fallacy, for example if scum lays a hammer down on a townie very aggressively (generally, when scum does something that clearly benefits their alignment). In this case, using the "too scummy to be scum" logic is fallacious since getting that townie lynched clearly benefitted scum.

5) You can look in my old games for some meta and stuff. I'm pretty different across games tbh, and even within games. It kind of depends on how I feel. My last completed game was Newbie 1717, where I won (pretty luckily) as scum. Any completed game before that was more than 2 years ago, since I took a 2 year hiatus from this site, so take anything you see there with a grain of salt. What you might find is that sometimes I am generally fairly aggressive as town, am generally pretty good at townhunting (and therefore getting scum by PoE), and I am rarely concerned with my image (but don't take it from me, take it for yourself! And make sure to skim through at least two games each of my town and scum games before you make a hasty conclusion). I honestly am not a fan of playing scum (if I could, I would avoid playing it), and sometimes that reflects in my game. I try to emulate my aggressive town playstyle as scum, but posting for me feels very unnatural and forced when I am scum. Sometimes it works out okay, like in my most recent game, but sometimes it doesn't quite work out so well.

------

I recommend that everyone answers these questions (you don't have to write as much as me), or if you don't want to, explain why you don't like these questions. I won't be offended if you choose the latter, since I know how much people have gravitated away from RQS (but I wanted to bring it back ).

Anyway,

VOTE: hiplop

Hi hiplop!! Nostalgia at its finest.

This is my second game with hiplop, ever. The first game I was with hiplop in was actually my very first game on this site, more than 4 years ago: Newbie 1222. He was also the IC in that game, and I was mostly a Village Idiot burden to the town (but, to be fair, my reads were nearly spot on besides the D1 mislynch lol). So if any of you newbies are concerned about this game, at least take solace in knowing that definitely you won't be as bad as I was in my first game . Hiplop I hope I've improved since then lol

1)When/how often do you expect to post?
From Mondays to Fridays, expect me to post irregularly (for a game like this, posts can't be regular) anytime between 1545 to 2245. On Saturdays, expect me to post (also irregularly) from 0645 to 2245. On Sundays, expect me to post from 0645 to 0730 (this time frame is most likely a time of no posts) and later from 1545 to 2245 (still irregularly). All time mentioned here is measured in GMT+8 as switching it to the standard GMT+0 is very difficult when handling different days as one's next day is not necessarily another's next day.
For now, I need to get back to work. Leftover questions will be answered later.

[RyanK]

Now, let's continue with this Q&A session.

...
2) Is low activity a scumtell? Is high activity a towntell?
...

Maybe not, Firebringer's activity rate is quite low, but he's definitely not a scum .

...
3) Lynch "all" liars or no?
....

Maybe not, for example, innocentvillager drew a very powerful role. He should lie about it and do whatever he needs to so he won't be a night-kill targer. This creates a WIFOM, though, and he may get killed.

...
4) Is too scummy to be scum a fallacy, or not?
...

Maybe not. I looked up mafiascum wiki for it and it said it is WIFOM, which means there is a 50% chance that he/she/it/none-of-your-business is scum.

...
5) (for those who have played before) What's your towngame like, and what's your scumgame like?
...

Well, I've played a face to face game before and it wasn't at all like this. Well, my towngame is very quiet in these face to face games (maybe because I

was

a very quite person back then). For the only time I drew scum, I immediately gave myself away by saying my target out loud.

[RyanK]

Well, you aren't over reacting, so he has already see that you could handle pressure quite well.

[RyanK]

If that's the case, innocentvillager wouldn't over react either, so maybe wagoning isn't at all a very good method.

[RyanK]

*with experienced players.

[RyanK]

Agreed, PhanthomCobalt.

[RyanK]

Just a correction for question 1, it should be 1645 to 2245 from Mondays to Fridays.

[RyanK]

VOTE: innocentvillager.

How/why did you get a very minor TR from this devoidness of game help?

Just got a general feeling that was trying to engage with the game, and honestly I gave a townpoint or a half for him when he switched votes soon after his first post, which showed some fearlessness.

Fearlessness against what exactly? His initial vote and vote switch was pretty much back-to-back and it was still RVS. What's there to fear in RVS? Are you to be feared then? The only ones to be feared in this game are the ones with that kill without warrant.

He was replying to my comment, I don't see why him using me as an example is so sketchy. If he had said anyone else's name, then YEAH that's weird as shit.

Another interesting thing about his response to you is that despite responding to you, he refers to you in a third person perspective. Why would he do so? Because I think you and RyanK are mafia, I will assume that this was him trying to distance himself from you while you attempt to make him look better than he has actually done with your 'very minor TR'.

Well, I feel like you're trying to distance yourself from innocentvillager as well, so innocentvillager and reso are both mafia. If you're not a mafia, reso, maybe you should notice by now how inaccurate this accusation is.

[RyanK]

How/why did you get a very minor TR from this devoidness of game help?

Just got a general feeling that was trying to engage with the game, and honestly I gave a townpoint or a half for him when he switched votes soon after his first post, which showed some fearlessness.

Fearlessness against what exactly? His initial vote and vote switch was pretty much back-to-back and it was still RVS. What's there to fear in RVS? Are you to be feared then? The only ones to be feared in this game are the ones with that kill without warrant.

He was replying to my comment, I don't see why him using me as an example is so sketchy. If he had said anyone else's name, then YEAH that's weird as shit.

Another interesting thing about his response to you is that despite responding to you, he refers to you in a third person perspective. Why would he do so? Because I think you and RyanK are mafia, I will assume that this was him trying to distance himself from you while you attempt to make him look better than he has actually done with your 'very minor TR'.

Well, I just found it unnatural to write "if

you

got a very powerful role...". So, I wrote what I did.

[RyanK]

You're quite right. I don't either. And for some reason, he's going V/LA for no apparent reason...

[RyanK]

Maybe you're right that he's scum. And at the same time, he's trying to bus. But instead of a companion, a townie.

[RyanK]

Or maybe he just finds me a little too noisy to be scum.

[RyanK]

:bored:. how unfortunate most of us are of different time zones.

[RyanK]

But still, reso has his points.

[RyanK]

VOTE: innocentvillager.

How/why did you get a very minor TR from this devoidness of game help?

Just got a general feeling that was trying to engage with the game, and honestly I gave a townpoint or a half for him when he switched votes soon after his first post, which showed some fearlessness.

Fearlessness against what exactly? His initial vote and vote switch was pretty much back-to-back and it was still RVS. What's there to fear in RVS? Are you to be feared then? The only ones to be feared in this game are the ones with that kill without warrant.

He was replying to my comment, I don't see why him using me as an example is so sketchy. If he had said anyone else's name, then YEAH that's weird as shit.

Another interesting thing about his response to you is that despite responding to you, he refers to you in a third person perspective. Why would he do so? Because I think you and RyanK are mafia, I will assume that this was him trying to distance himself from you while you attempt to make him look better than he has actually done with your 'very minor TR'.

Well, I feel like you're trying to distance yourself from innocentvillager as well, so innocentvillager and reso are both mafia. If you're not a mafia, reso, maybe you should notice by now how inaccurate this accusation is.

But the difference between you and me was that IV decided to read you as a 'very minor TR' despite you not having done anything noteworthy IMO of any sort of read. Do you find any of your posts before Post 38, and/or the culmination of them, noteworthy enough for a 'very minor TR'? Because I sure don't.

Maybe IV read me so because I wasn't scummy and not because I was townie.

[RyanK]

Well, will see what I could go on with tomorrow.

[RyanK]

It is, in my opinion, my obligation to inform you that I'll be posting less often from now. Have got to complete some work here.

[RyanK]

.

[RyanK]

I'm not sure how that happened. Was trying to vote Vaxkiller.

[RyanK]

VOTE: Vaxkiller

[RyanK]

...
(I'm dumb. Only just realized "IV" is innocent villager. I was somewhat lost )
...

You're not alone, innocentvillager.

Just skimmed through and re-reading but I have to post my first impressions of RyanK. I wonder if RyanK could feel the cold chill spread across his bones as I read through his posts knowing that someone re-reading everything all at once would find out....

Ryan's post count is just through the roof, and he seems to be nitpicking really early... that is how I play scum, just trying to sew dissension in the ranks. He has to be scum.

VOTE: RyanK

I was too excited of my first mafia online game that I posted so much (at the expanse of my work).

VOTE: Vaxkiller

For what reason?

Let me add more to this. Your IV vote at least had some amount of reasoning to it. But then you jumped onto Vaxkiller without any reasoning to do so. Prior to your vote, Vaxkiller hadn't even posted anything. Please give me/us your reasoning behind this.

No problem. Thanks for asking politely. I was trying to poke him for reactions.

VOTE: innocentvillager.

How/why did you get a very minor TR from this devoidness of game help?

Just got a general feeling that was trying to engage with the game, and honestly I gave a townpoint or a half for him when he switched votes soon after his first post, which showed some fearlessness.

Fearlessness against what exactly? His initial vote and vote switch was pretty much back-to-back and it was still RVS. What's there to fear in RVS? Are you to be feared then? The only ones to be feared in this game are the ones with that kill without warrant.

He was replying to my comment, I don't see why him using me as an example is so sketchy. If he had said anyone else's name, then YEAH that's weird as shit.

Another interesting thing about his response to you is that despite responding to you, he refers to you in a third person perspective. Why would he do so? Because I think you and RyanK are mafia, I will assume that this was him trying to distance himself from you while you attempt to make him look better than he has actually done with your 'very minor TR'.

Well, I feel like you're trying to distance yourself from innocentvillager as well, so innocentvillager and reso are both mafia. If you're not a mafia, reso, maybe you should notice by now how inaccurate this accusation is.

Going back to RyanK on this vote. First of all, that placement of the vote in this post is just plain weird. It's just weird. Really weird. Have I mentioned the word 'weird'? No? How weird.

Second, here, you try to use my own logic against me by trying to say that I'm distancing myself from IV, and therefore, IV and I must be scumbuddies. It doesn't matter who you were to vote for if that were true, they're both scum, right?

WRONG. I was the one attacking you and IV. The only thing IV had done is was label you as having a 'very minor TR'. If the both of us must be scumbuddies according to your reversal of my logic onto myself, why would you vote for the one that's given you a 'very minor TR', and not the one that's actually attacking you?

I upgrade my

Finger of Suspicion

to a

Fist of Suspicion

.

Why should I vote for someone because *insert a pronoun* attacked me and not because *insert a pronoun* is behaving scummy?

[RyanK]

*re-reads all of his own posts and realizes something*

DAMMIT, I'M BEING AGGRESSIVE AGAIN. I WAS TRYING TO BREAK THIS HABIT GOD DAMMIT.

*repeatedly bashes his face into his palm and desk*

I'm a verbally aggressive person.

[RyanK]

*re-reads all of his own posts and realizes something*

DAMMIT, I'M BEING AGGRESSIVE AGAIN. I WAS TRYING TO BREAK THIS HABIT GOD DAMMIT.

*repeatedly bashes his face into his palm and desk*

I'm a verbally aggressive person.

Maybe that's why I got an aggressive avatar .

[RyanK]

...
He is likely just busy. Good mafia tip is to try not to read into people's v/la's. Its kinda low for someone to call one as scum when they aren't actually gonna be busy. Give people the benefit of the doubt. That said, Villager definitely is pinging my scumdar. He does seem to be trying to look too *perfect* seems like he is checking his posts over, they don't feel very raw or genuine to me, personally? Obviously not going to vote because the wagon is quite large and we have MUCH more to discuss today.

Thanks for the tip.

...

Anyone up for a Rusty PL?

Policy lynches in newbies are a really, really bad idea. Do you think what he did is more likely to come from town or scum?
...

In my opinion, what he did could both be from a town or a scum.

Rusty, this is to help you out, to place a vote, type [votes]Rusty[/votes], just remove the 's' from votes to turn it into vote.

I'm willing to PL Rusty using a 3 strike system, counting this incident as Strike 1. This is after all a newbie game, and Rusty is here to learn. It would be a disservice to Newbie games in general if we PL someone new to mafia in general because of such a happening.

I don't think you should even use a strike system. If he is here to learn, he shouldn't be afraid to make mistakes, as making mistakes is how one learns. If he could only make three mistakes, he would only learn three things.

[RyanK]

I don't like how he starts the game off by establishing how much of a stereotypical newbie he supposedly is, and then proceeds to almost hammering innocent villager. This, coupled with having a name that could imply that he has played mafia before, makes me think his actions shouldn't just be shrugged off as a newbie being a newbie just so easily.

VOTE: Rusty

You must have played mafia before to make a statement like that.

[RyanK]

I don't like how he starts the game off by establishing how much of a stereotypical newbie he supposedly is, and then proceeds to almost hammering innocent villager. This, coupled with having a name that could imply that he has played mafia before, makes me think his actions shouldn't just be shrugged off as a newbie being a newbie just so easily.

VOTE: Rusty

Rusty, where did you get your name?

[RyanK]

BTW I noticed when ever anyone quotes someone, they always include the entire post as a quote. Is this a rule to not edit them? I just wanted to respond to one specific part of the quote post above, but wasn't sure if it was ok if I edited it....

In my opinion, it is fine. You should notice that I edited them.

[RyanK]

...
That is fine, posting a lot allows us a deeper look into who you are, its just unfortunate for you because your posts are revealing scummy behavior.

In response to some earlier conversations that I was too late to the game for:

I think Lynch policies are not going to be helpful to us, we just need to keep track of the scummiest behavior and vote for that.

Definite yes on avatars, really helps give a visual queue to keep track of everyone!

I have played 2-3 games on another site that were very noob friendly, but were a lot larger.

Other random thoughts: Would really like to hear a little more from 0x4 and rusty.

That's unfortunate, because I'm a townie.

[RyanK]

I don't like how he starts the game off by establishing how much of a stereotypical newbie he supposedly is, and then proceeds to almost hammering innocent villager. This, coupled with having a name that could imply that he has played mafia before, makes me think his actions shouldn't just be shrugged off as a newbie being a newbie just so easily.

VOTE: Rusty

You must have played mafia before to make a statement like that.

I have played before. Did I not make this clear enough in my first post?

You did. Just missed it when going through the large amount of posts the next morning as I take quite low regard for introductory posts.

[RyanK]

...
That is fine, posting a lot allows us a deeper look into who you are, its just unfortunate for you because your posts are revealing scummy behavior.

In response to some earlier conversations that I was too late to the game for:

I think Lynch policies are not going to be helpful to us, we just need to keep track of the scummiest behavior and vote for that.

Definite yes on avatars, really helps give a visual queue to keep track of everyone!

I have played 2-3 games on another site that were very noob friendly, but were a lot larger.

Other random thoughts: Would really like to hear a little more from 0x4 and rusty.

That's unfortunate, because I'm a townie.

Saying you're a townie doesn't really help all that much. Try arguing for

why

people should think you're a townie, instead of just stating that you are.

There is no clear evidence I'm a scum.

[RyanK]

...
That is fine, posting a lot allows us a deeper look into who you are, its just unfortunate for you because your posts are revealing scummy behavior.

In response to some earlier conversations that I was too late to the game for:

I think Lynch policies are not going to be helpful to us, we just need to keep track of the scummiest behavior and vote for that.

Definite yes on avatars, really helps give a visual queue to keep track of everyone!

I have played 2-3 games on another site that were very noob friendly, but were a lot larger.

Other random thoughts: Would really like to hear a little more from 0x4 and rusty.

That's unfortunate, because I'm a townie.

Saying you're a townie doesn't really help all that much. Try arguing for

why

people should think you're a townie, instead of just stating that you are.

There is no clear evidence I'm a scum.

Thus, also no reason for people to believe me to be a scum.

[RyanK]

...
That is fine, posting a lot allows us a deeper look into who you are, its just unfortunate for you because your posts are revealing scummy behavior.

In response to some earlier conversations that I was too late to the game for:

I think Lynch policies are not going to be helpful to us, we just need to keep track of the scummiest behavior and vote for that.

Definite yes on avatars, really helps give a visual queue to keep track of everyone!

I have played 2-3 games on another site that were very noob friendly, but were a lot larger.

Other random thoughts: Would really like to hear a little more from 0x4 and rusty.

That's unfortunate, because I'm a townie.

Saying you're a townie doesn't really help all that much. Try arguing for

why

people should think you're a townie, instead of just stating that you are.

Agreed.

[RyanK]

...
That is fine, posting a lot allows us a deeper look into who you are, its just unfortunate for you because your posts are revealing scummy behavior.

In response to some earlier conversations that I was too late to the game for:

I think Lynch policies are not going to be helpful to us, we just need to keep track of the scummiest behavior and vote for that.

Definite yes on avatars, really helps give a visual queue to keep track of everyone!

I have played 2-3 games on another site that were very noob friendly, but were a lot larger.

Other random thoughts: Would really like to hear a little more from 0x4 and rusty.

That's unfortunate, because I'm a townie.

Saying you're a townie doesn't really help all that much. Try arguing for

why

people should think you're a townie, instead of just stating that you are.

There is no clear evidence I'm a scum.

While this is indeed true, using it as an argument for why you are

not

scum is logically flawed. It does not dispute any of the arguments for why you are being read as scum right now.

Why not. There is nothing in Vaxkiller's argument that points out several things I said that proves I'm a scum.

[RyanK]

VOTE: innocentvillager.

How/why did you get a very minor TR from this devoidness of game help?

Just got a general feeling that was trying to engage with the game, and honestly I gave a townpoint or a half for him when he switched votes soon after his first post, which showed some fearlessness.

Fearlessness against what exactly? His initial vote and vote switch was pretty much back-to-back and it was still RVS. What's there to fear in RVS? Are you to be feared then? The only ones to be feared in this game are the ones with that kill without warrant.

He was replying to my comment, I don't see why him using me as an example is so sketchy. If he had said anyone else's name, then YEAH that's weird as shit.

Another interesting thing about his response to you is that despite responding to you, he refers to you in a third person perspective. Why would he do so? Because I think you and RyanK are mafia, I will assume that this was him trying to distance himself from you while you attempt to make him look better than he has actually done with your 'very minor TR'.

Well, I feel like you're trying to distance yourself from innocentvillager as well, so innocentvillager and reso are both mafia. If you're not a mafia, reso, maybe you should notice by now how inaccurate this accusation is.

Going back to RyanK on this vote. First of all, that placement of the vote in this post is just plain weird. It's just weird. Really weird. Have I mentioned the word 'weird'? No? How weird.

Second, here, you try to use my own logic against me by trying to say that I'm distancing myself from IV, and therefore, IV and I must be scumbuddies. It doesn't matter who you were to vote for if that were true, they're both scum, right?

WRONG. I was the one attacking you and IV. The only thing IV had done is was label you as having a 'very minor TR'. If the both of us must be scumbuddies according to your reversal of my logic onto myself, why would you vote for the one that's given you a 'very minor TR', and not the one that's actually attacking you?

I upgrade my

Finger of Suspicion

to a

Fist of Suspicion

.

Why should I vote for someone because *insert a pronoun* attacked me and not because *insert a pronoun* is behaving scummy?

I've already expressed my reasons why I think you and IV are scum. However, when I try to view the situation from your point of view, I don't really see the same thing. Regardless of whatever side you are of, IV has given you a 'very minor TR'. So if I were you, I'd be like 'Woot.' But in comes this Reso guy and his reasoning and his form of logic accusing me of being scum. Given the circumstances, why would you vote for IV and not me? For what reasons did your scumdar ping on IV?

Voting innocent villager was actually a random vote. I didn't switch my vote to you because it is common for tounsfolk to suspect each other.

...
That is fine, posting a lot allows us a deeper look into who you are, its just unfortunate for you because your posts are revealing scummy behavior.

In response to some earlier conversations that I was too late to the game for:

I think Lynch policies are not going to be helpful to us, we just need to keep track of the scummiest behavior and vote for that.

Definite yes on avatars, really helps give a visual queue to keep track of everyone!

I have played 2-3 games on another site that were very noob friendly, but were a lot larger.

Other random thoughts: Would really like to hear a little more from 0x4 and rusty.

That's unfortunate, because I'm a townie.

Saying you're a townie doesn't really help all that much. Try arguing for

why

people should think you're a townie, instead of just stating that you are.

There is no clear evidence I'm a scum.

Thus, also no reason for people to believe me to be a scum.

But there is equally no evidence that you are a townie. But since you seem to have neglected this side of this same coin, this evidence must exist. Please point out where this evidence exists.

You're quite right. I don't either. And for some reason, he's going V/LA for no apparent reason...

If I'm a scum, why would I agree with you on the mysterious town read.

[RyanK]

...
That is fine, posting a lot allows us a deeper look into who you are, its just unfortunate for you because your posts are revealing scummy behavior.
....

How is scummy behavior even being revealed? This is a completely baseless accusation, after rereading it.

[RyanK]

...
WRONG. I was the one attacking you and IV. The only thing IV had done is was label you as having a 'very minor TR'. If the both of us must be scumbuddies according to your reversal of my logic onto myself, why would you vote for the one that's given you a 'very minor TR', and not the one that's actually attacking you?
...

...
I've already expressed my reasons why I think you and IV are scum. However, when I try to view the situation from your point of view, I don't really see the same thing. Regardless of whatever side you are of, IV has given you a 'very minor TR'. So if I were you, I'd be like 'Woot.' But in comes this Reso guy and his reasoning and his form of logic accusing me of being scum. Given the circumstances, why would you vote for IV and not me? For what reasons did your scumdar ping on IV?
...

VOTE: reso for inviting me to do this to it, twice.

[RyanK]

Happy with my vote. I'd like people to say why they aren't joinng this wagon thanks.

hiplop, you're seriously telling me you wouldn't be pissed if you almost got quickhammered due to an SE and a newbies' ignorance?

eh good point lol. to me I had the foresight of knowing you didn't die. Perhaps in the moment it makes sense lol

5

I don't see it at all, in fact the fact that he thinks he's got the scumteam pinned from maybe one or two RVS interactions is laughable at best scummy at worst.

I mean, do I think he has the scumteam pegged? No. Do I think he thinks he does? Yes.

VOTE: cobalt. Interested in this.

In my opinion, maverick and hiplop are the scum. They are jointly voting PhanthomCobalt for no reason.

[RyanK]

Hey guys you can't just vote without a reason, it's really insightful to town if they can see your thought process

Indeed.

[RyanK]

How is scummy behavior even being revealed? This is a completely baseless accusation, after rereading it.

Continuing to use your previous logic against you, how is your townie behavior being revealed? In Post 158, 0x40 asked you how your reasoning in the post directly before his is town affiliation indicative, which you have simply ignored. When questions are asked, answers are expected. If one chooses to ignore them, that I see it as the person asking is right, and the person being questioned admitting that they are wrong. The same goes for you too, IV.

There is nothing townie being revealed about me, I admit that. But the only reason I started to defend myself was after 0x40 saying it is useless for me to just tell my alignment(of course, anyone could be lying). For me to defend myself, I would have to look for why an accusation was even made. After looking for the reason, I realised it doesn't even exist. Why should I defend myself from a baseless accusation (if you look carefully, I didn't intend to defend myself from the accusation).

[RyanK]

...
That is fine, posting a lot allows us a deeper look into who you are, its just unfortunate for you because your posts are revealing scummy behavior.

In response to some earlier conversations that I was too late to the game for:

I think Lynch policies are not going to be helpful to us, we just need to keep track of the scummiest behavior and vote for that.

Definite yes on avatars, really helps give a visual queue to keep track of everyone!

I have played 2-3 games on another site that were very noob friendly, but were a lot larger.

Other random thoughts: Would really like to hear a little more from 0x4 and rusty.

That's unfortunate, because I'm a townie.

Saying you're a townie doesn't really help all that much. Try arguing for

why

people should think you're a townie, instead of just stating that you are.

There is no clear evidence I'm a scum.

While this is indeed true, using it as an argument for why you are

not

scum is logically flawed. It does not dispute any of the arguments for why you are being read as scum right now.

After seeing this post last night, I tried to look for the arguments of why I'm being read scum. After noticing that the arguments being made were completely without any backup about something I said, how am I supposed to clarify that something I said when there is nothing I said that made him make that accusation?

[RyanK]

How is scummy behavior even being revealed? This is a completely baseless accusation, after rereading it.

Continuing to use your previous logic against you, how is your townie behavior being revealed? In Post 158, 0x40 asked you how your reasoning in the post directly before his is town affiliation indicative, which you have simply ignored. When questions are asked, answers are expected. If one chooses to ignore them, that I see it as the person asking is right, and the person being questioned admitting that they are wrong. The same goes for you too, IV.

Anyway, reso, you should have seen how useless it was when I tried to use your logic against yourself.

[RyanK]

Anyway, reso, if you're so confident I'm a scum, why can't you convince others to lynch me?

[RyanK]

No longer townreading RyanK. Later posts are uncomfortably accusatory and weirdly OMGUSy

Was trying to get you to say that, innocentvillager. At least now I know you aren't town reading me for no good reason.

[RyanK]

No longer townreading RyanK. Later posts are uncomfortably accusatory and weirdly OMGUSy

Was trying to get you to say that, innocentvillager. At least now I know you aren't town reading me for no good reason.

[RyanK]

No longer townreading RyanK. Later posts are uncomfortably accusatory and weirdly OMGUSy

Was trying to get you to say that, innocentvillager. At least now I know you aren't town reading me for no good reason.

[RyanK]

VOTE: maverick

FoS: hiplop

These are votes of the two people I believe are the mafia. If I get one wrong, I'm more than likely to get the other.

Maybe the only way to prove to you all that I'm innocent is to get you all to lynch me, at a very high cost, however.

[RyanK]

There is no

clear

evidence I'm a scum.

Random note while ISOing, I the usage of the word "clear" gives me the heebie-jeebies.

Why say "clear" at all? Imagine replacing that word with the synonym "definitive" or something similar—scummy. There is a weird implication that you are claiming scum here. It's like when obvious criminals shout, "Lol there's no hard evidence against me!" instead of just "There's no evidence against me!"

No longer townreading RyanK. Later posts are uncomfortably accusatory and weirdly OMGUSy

Was trying to get you to say that, innocentvillager. At least now I know you aren't town reading me for no good reason.

What is this referring to? Did you ever question my townread on you? I think I gave reasons for townreading you, even if they were tenuous.

I would agree with you that it sounds like that. Anyway, there is not even

fuzzy

evidence against me.

Yup. They reasons were to tenuous for me to believe. I just decided not to question about my own townread as I don't have any questions that would make me clearer about why was it done.

[RyanK]

Anyway, reso, if you're so confident I'm a scum, why can't you convince others to lynch me?

I don't think a lynch is going to happen any time soon. There are many things that we still have to discuss, and deadline is in about 10 days from now.
What makes you think reso is confident you're scum?

He accuses me of being scum over and over again.

Fuck I'm getting towny vibes from that post.

I don't know what to think about you anymore.

Sorry to do that innocentvillager. Just got a little bad tempered two days ago. Kept thinking I was making people suspect that I'm a scum because I thought some people would smell my temper there.

[RyanK]

And also, sorry to mess things up in the game.

[RyanK]

About my avatar, I would change it into something better. For now, removing and angry bird avatar to enlighten things a little.

[RyanK]

He accuses me of being scum over and over again.

Based on the arguments made so far, he should by no means be "confident" on either you or innocentvillager being scum. I think he's right in suspecting you, but when did he ever actually accuse you of being scum?

Alright, you've convinced me.

[RyanK]

Fuck I'm getting towny vibes from that post.

I don't know what to think about you anymore.

I understand, were I you, I would be as confused, (maybe even a little upset).

[RyanK]

Cobalt is hilariously hard to read as a result. If he had any conviction in his vote he wouldn't have reacted in the way he did which makes me question the wisdom of voting to L-1 in the first place.

Rusty also comes off quite badly.

Happy with my vote. I'd like people to say why they aren't joinng this wagon thanks.

Why do do say hes hard to read then in the next post ask why we are voting for him? That escalated quickly!

TBH can anyone explain their cobalt votes, I'm having a hard time seeing it over a few other people at the moment.


I'm also removing my Ryank vote UNVOTE: Ryank I voted him originally because he seemed to be playing the scum "super town role" - he was all over the place. His last few posts seem to be less scummy and im more suspicious of a few other people anyway.

innocentvillager gave a very clear statement that he voted for PhanthomCoblat.

VOTE: PhantomCobalt

Policy lynching PhantomCobalt for putting me at L-1 without declaring. You should know better. This is not fucking Rusty's fault, it is 90% yours.

I've grown suspicious of Maverick and hiplop because Maverick1102 claims it to be a random vote and yet is the only player who hasn't moved his vote, even until now. hiplop seems to be helping Maverick1102 build a wagon against PhantomCobalt but without justification. hiplop is an IC. He should know how important it is to explain his votes.

[RyanK]

I don't like how he starts the game off by establishing how much of a stereotypical newbie he supposedly is, and then proceeds to almost hammering innocent villager. This, coupled with having a name that could imply that he has played mafia before, makes me think his actions shouldn't just be shrugged off as a newbie being a newbie just so easily.

VOTE: Rusty

Well 0x40, for all we know Rusty's name comes from Rusty and Dusty in Cars. And if he really is a stereotypical newbie, he would proceed to hammer someone without knowing what he's doing.

[RyanK]

Just checked his profile. His last visit was 6:14 am GMT+8.

[RyanK]

0x4 I have not seen too many original ideas on who might be scum vs town from you, you are just jumping on things other people have said or arguing about manusha game mechanics. Mind stepping up?


Also, earth to rusty, come in rusty!

Maybe he's trying to step back while we accuse each other VOTE: rusty.

[RyanK]

Just noticed a pretty big slip, that I'm not sure how it got unnoticed until now.

Just skimmed through and re-reading but I have to post my first impressions of RyanK. I wonder if RyanK could feel the cold chill spread across his bones as I read through his posts knowing that someone re-reading everything all at once would find out....

Ryan's post count is just through the roof, and he seems to be nitpicking really early... that is how I play scum, just trying to sew dissension in the ranks. He has to be scum.

VOTE: RyanK

You state that he "

has to

be scum," as in "it isn't possible for him not to be scum," but the only way you could possibly know that is if the other scum is you. And later you unvote him, what's up with that?

Didn't he explain that he decided to unvote me because I wasn't behaving scummy?

Why weren't you scum-hunting? Feels pretty scummy to me. VOTE: 0x40.

0x40=0, if you can't solve that math problem .

Also, what's up with you attacking me with Vaxkiller's unbacked argument although I implied that the argument was unbacked (post 154)?

I'm still wondering why there isn't more focus on Cobalt for trying to quietly push through a quickhammer and then, when it got fluffed up by an invalid vote, itrying to salvage it and score townpoints.

Cobalt, what were your reasons for putting Inno to L-1 in your #89? If people are really going to berate and even vote me for 'not explaining my vote' or whatever (I have) then they should also have reacted far, far more angrily to the hammer-that-never-was earlier.

You have just flew off my scumdar (short for scum radar), Maverick1102, for finally justifying your vote. Hiplop is also off as I guessed you two to be teaming up. The next possible candidate is Rusty(it would be so convinient for him to just not do anything, and let us argue among ourselves).

If my own VC is correct IV is at L-2 right now

And to prove that I didn't know, why did I unvote IV after the Rusty vote? Cuz I thought it was L-1 and I didnt want anyone to QH

Seriously, PhantomCobalt? You thought rusty's vote would go through? That's completely illogical considering the fact that you joined a year ago and don't know about when is a vote considered official. You're the next possible candidate.

[RyanK]

VOTE: PhantomCobalt

[RyanK]

Didn't he explain that he decided to unvote me because I wasn't behaving scummy?

The problem here is with him stating that you are scum, which is completely impossible for him to know if he himself is not scum.

According to this theory, you too will be accused:

...
You state that he "

has to

be scum," as in "it isn't possible for him not to be scum," but the only way you could possibly know that is if the other scum is you. And later you unvote him, what's up with that?

How do you know Vaxkiller is a scum?

[RyanK]

How do you know Vaxkiller is a scum?

Because a townie couldn't possibly know whether or not you are town. Vaxkiller said he knows you are scum, and if Vaxkiller is town, how could he possibly know that for sure?

He doesn't. He is just very confident, but he lost confidence soon after later posts.

Just skimmed through and re-reading but I have to post my first impressions of RyanK. I wonder if RyanK could feel the cold chill spread across his bones as I read through his posts knowing that someone re-reading everything all at once would find out....

Ryan's post count is just through the roof, and he seems to be nitpicking really early... that is how I play scum, just trying to sew dissension in the ranks. He has to be scum.

VOTE: RyanK

[RyanK]

He doesn't. He is just very confident, but he lost confidence soon after later posts.

Read the post you just quoted yourself. Notice the "

has to

be scum" bit at the end? He clearly stated that he know you are scum.

He is saying that it coinsides so much with me that he believes I'm a scum for sure, but he doesn't know because I'm a townie.

[RyanK]

He doesn't. He is just very confident, but he lost confidence soon after later posts.

Read the post you just quoted yourself. Notice the "

has to

be scum" bit at the end? He clearly stated that he know you are scum.

That statement is also used by people who are over confident, so often, I don't find it strange.

[RyanK]

It is something like saying "it has to be him" and point to a really naughty boy when one sees a scribble on a wall. The accuser doesn't know the school boy did it, but still says "it has to be him".

[RyanK]

He doesn't. He is just very confident, but he lost confidence soon after later posts.

Read the post you just quoted yourself. Notice the "

has to

be scum" bit at the end? He clearly stated that he know you are scum.

He is saying that it coinsides so much with me that he believes I'm a scum for sure, but he doesn't know because I'm a townie.

But for him to believe that you are scum for sure, he would have to have some sort of evidence that eliminates every single possibility of you being town. The only piece of evidence that could possibly fit that bill, would be a pm from host telling him exactly who is town and who is scum.

Well, he says he believes I'm scum for sure simply because that is exactly like his scum play. Anyway, even if he really does know, why is he debunked later?

[RyanK]

That statement is also used by people who are over confident, so often, I don't find it strange.

That's just absurd. Presenting what should be nothing but an educated guess as if it were a fact is not something town would ever do. It is something that scum does from time to time, hoverer, as they actually have some facts available from the start. You're stating that this is something that is said often by town, but do you have any statistics to back up that claim?

I'm not saying that this is often used by town. I'm saying that most people would use that phrase when he's overconfident. Have you never heard people use it before?

[RyanK]

That statement is also used by people who are over confident, so often, I don't find it strange.

That's just absurd. Presenting what should be nothing but an educated guess as if it were a fact is not something town would ever do. It is something that scum does from time to time, hoverer, as they actually have some facts available from the start. You're stating that this is something that is said often by town, but do you have any statistics to back up that claim?

I'm not saying that this is often used by town. I'm saying that most people would use that phrase when he's overconfident. Have you never heard people use it before?

Yes, and being too confident in a vote is a very strong scumtell, as the mafia would always know the alignment of those they vote for.

That's just absurd. Presenting what should be nothing but an educated guess as if it were a fact is not something town would ever do. It is something that scum does from time to time, hoverer, as they actually have some facts available from the start. You're stating that this is something that is said often by scum, but do you have any statistics to back up that claim?

[RyanK]

*You're stating that this is a behavior seen often by scum,

[RyanK]

...
Yes, and being too confident in a vote is a very strong scumtell, as the mafia would always know the alignment of those they vote for.

How is this supposed to be true? It had already been such a long time since the game began that he would have had some facts by then. It's not even the begining of the game.

[RyanK]

...
Yes, and being too confident in a vote is a very strong scumtell, as the mafia would always know the alignment of those they vote for.

How is this supposed to be true? It had already been such a long time since the game began that he would have had some facts by then. It's not even the begining of the game.

Which would mean that the scum isn't the only one who knows, but the townies can guess. Guesses aren't always accurate, however.

[RyanK]

...
Yes, and being too confident in a vote is a very strong scumtell, as the mafia would always know the alignment of those they vote for.

How is this supposed to be true? It had already been such a long time since the game began that he would have had some facts by then. It's not even the begining of the game.

In Matrix6, from the perspective of a townie, the probability of any other player being scum is 25%, and probability of being scum is 75%. While these numbers fluctuate for different players as the game goes on, they usually don't increase or decrease by more than 15% for any player on the first day, as unless that player does something incredibly stupid, there is very little to go by. His reads at that point couldn't possibly make you seem more likely to be scum than town, and yet he let it slip that you are 100% likely to be scum from his point of view.

And how is one suppose to determine a slip?

[RyanK]

...
Guesses are indeed not always accurate. In fact, they are so inaccurate that mafia doesn't get lynched all that much more often d1 than they would if a completely random player was lynched. Vaxkiller, however, isn't even guessing, as he states that you "

have to

be scum."

Is that considered a slip?

[RyanK]

...
Maybe not,

for example, innocentvillager drew a very powerful role.

He should lie about it and do whatever he needs to so he won't be a night-kill targer. This creates a WIFOM, though, and he may get killed.

reso considered this as a slip. If this slip, which seems more major than yours, was later proven to not be actually a slip, how can yours really be a slip?

[RyanK]

...
Maybe not,

for example, innocentvillager drew a very powerful role.

He should lie about it and do whatever he needs to so he won't be a night-kill targer. This creates a WIFOM, though, and he may get killed.

reso considered this as a slip. If this slip, which seems more major than yours, was later proven to not be actually a slip, how can yours really be a slip?

innocentvillager shouldn't be in the quote, just didn't delete it.

[RyanK]

UNVOTE: PhantomCobalt. We shouldn't lynch so quickly. Sorry for not declaring.

[RyanK]

Welcome back to my scumdar, maverick. You've played for months now and you still don't know that hammering someone means the end of the day? We've still got 230 hours and we're going to waste that just to hammer PhantomCobalt? VOTE: maverick1102

[RyanK]

Welcome back to my scumdar, maverick. You've played for months now and you still don't know that hammering someone means the end of the day? We've still got 230 hours and we're going to waste that just to hammer PhantomCobalt? VOTE: maverick1102

I would much rather lynch scum now than gift them the chance to talk their way out of it. Putting off a hammer because 'ooh there's plenty of time left' is weak at best.

Thanks for clarifying. You're out of my scumdar again. But anyway, if anyone can talk their way out, they're not lying or doing something bad against the town. What you said may seem suspicious at first. You've just talked your way out. Imagine if everyone else had your mentality. You wouldn't even stand a chance. That's why quickhammers are a bad idea as they increase the probability of hammering scum.

My list of scumdidates (short for scum candidates):
1. PhantomCobalt

And to prove that I didn't know, why did I unvote IV after the Rusty vote? Cuz I thought it was L-1 and I didnt want anyone to QH

Reason: You've played on this site for a year, and yet you don't know when a vote is considered an official vote.
2. 0x40

Welcome back to my scumdar, maverick. You've played for months now and you still don't know that hammering someone means the end of the day? We've still got 230 hours and we're going to waste that just to hammer PhantomCobalt? VOTE: maverick1102

I would much rather lynch scum now than gift them the chance to talk their way out of it. Putting off a hammer because 'ooh there's plenty of time left' is weak at best.

What do you think the odds are that PhantomCobalt will flip scum?

Reason: You've claimed to be experienced in mafia, but you weren't looking any scum and only start reading people and accusing people after being criticized for not doing so earlier. Also, you believe that the odds that PhantomCobalt would flip scum are quite low despite I mentioned in earlier posts how mysterious it is that he doesn't know when a vote goes through.
3. Rusty
Reason: Really silent, but I've checked on him. His checking in once a day but he made no posts (at least for today).
Semi-scumdidates (have been in an out of my scumradar):
1. Hiplop
Reason: Very few posts, but I think it's normal for an IC
2. Maverick1102
Reason: He made me suspect him with the quickhammer, but he clarified why he wanted to do so later.
3. innnocentvillager
Reason: He seemed to have had a townread on me for no reason, but stop townreading me would prove he wasn't doing it for no reason.
4. reso
Reason: He seemed to be wondering why I didn't vote him when I thought innocentvillager was more scummy than him. But later, in my opinion, it isn't a reason that would get anywhere to prove if he's scum or not.
5. Vaxkiller
Reason: He suspected me without any backup of how I am revealing scummy behaviour, but later stopped using the baseless accusation that I'm scum after I mentioned it was so.
So here are my questions:
1. PhantomCobalt, why didn't you know rusty's vote couldn't go through?
2. Why did you think it's completely unlikely PhantomCobalt is a scum? Why were you starting to do things only after you were being criticized for not doing so earlier?
While these questions remain unanswered, you two are my top scumdidates.

[RyanK]

...
Thanks for clarifying. You're out of my scumdar again. But anyway, if anyone can talk their way out, they're not lying or doing something bad against the town. What you said may seem suspicious at first. You've just talked your way out. Imagine if everyone else had your mentality. You wouldn't even stand a chance. That's why quickhammers are a bad idea as they increase the probability of hammering scum.
...

*increase the probability of hammering a townie*

[RyanK]

...

Why weren't you scum-hunting? Feels pretty scummy to me.

What exactly is your definition of 'scum hunting'? 0x40 found weird wording and decided to push on it. It's honestly the only thing anyone can do at this point because it's still Day 1. What exactly are you expecting out of us?

My definition of scum hunting is looking for the scum. I just noticed that he had already done so when I posted it. I didn't notice because I treated it as a original idea and a response to Vaxkiller's suspicion.

[RyanK]

...
Though in the following post, you declared Maverick and Hiplop as your scum suspects. And yet you didn't change your vote to them? I realize that I've been pushing you about your vote in IV instead of me because of my pushing against the both of you, but when you have a list of scum suspects, shouldn't you be voting for them?
...

I also found you scummy at first for asking me to do that, but later posts seemed to disprove that. So I switched my votes after your post 183 after reading it. (there is nothing odd about you finding me scummy, as the votes were so random, no doubt it created controversies.)

[RyanK]

That statement is also used by people who are over confident, so often, I don't find it strange.

That's just absurd. Presenting what should be nothing but an educated guess as if it were a fact is not something town would ever do. It is something that scum does from time to time, hoverer, as they actually have some facts available from the start. You're stating that this is something that is said often by town, but do you have any statistics to back up that claim?

I'm not saying that this is often used by town. I'm saying that most people would use that phrase when he's overconfident. Have you never heard people use it before?

Yes, and being too confident in a vote is a very strong scumtell, as the mafia would always know the alignment of those they vote for.

Dragon Training Tip #7: Instincts. Lets face it, we don’t know what we are really doing when we are flying, dragons have it in their blood. If your dragon is trying to tell you something when its flying, you should listen to its instincts. Unless those instincts have you go swimming with the fishes..

Vote Count 1.07

Reso (L-5):
0x40 (L-4): Vaxkiller,
Rusty (L-5):
Vaxkiller(L-4): 0x40,
RyanK (L-5):
innocentvillager (L-4):
PhantomCobalt (L-2): Maverick1102, innocentvillager, hiplop
Maverick1102 (L-4): PhantomCobalt,
hiplop (L-5):

Not Voting (3): Rusty, RyanK, Reso

With 9 Alive, It Takes 5 to Lynch
Day 1 Ends In (expired on 2016-08-01 20:00:00)

Is it an error? I forgot to unvote maverick, but I'm considered to have unvoted him?

[RyanK]

The quote above shouldn't be there.

[RyanK]

It's ok. Firebringer. UNVOTE: Maverick1102. Now, time to vote who I think is scum.

FoS: PhantomCobalt

(when the day is almost over)VOTE: 0x40

[RyanK]

4. reso
Reason: He seemed to be wondering why I didn't vote him when

I thought innocentvillager was more scummy than him.

But later, in my opinion, it isn't a reason that would get anywhere to prove if he's scum or not.

You contradicted yourself.

Voting innocent villager was actually a random vote. I didn't switch my vote to you because it is common for tounsfolk to suspect each other.

VOTE: RyanK

Yes, it was a random vote. The vote remained because he was also behaving scummy.

[RyanK]

that your vote remained on IV

because he was behaving scummy.

EBWoP: ....that your vote was random and it remained on IV...

Alright, I admit it, the first four votes were completely random and not devoted to scumhunting. It was later on in the game I began to scumhunt. I'm not sure why, but I had the urge to lie that they were random.

[RyanK]

Anyway, I don't really use votes to scumhunt. It's just not my style.

[RyanK]

that your vote remained on IV

because he was behaving scummy.

EBWoP: ....that your vote was random and it remained on IV...

Alright, I admit it, the first four votes were completely random and not devoted to scumhunting. It was later on in the game I began to scumhunt. I'm not sure why, but I had the urge to lie that they were random.

Actually, I didn't intend to lie those votes were random, it's just that I've got such a bad memory I couldn't remember that the votes were random when I was trying to find out why I voted for specific people. Also, after seeeing I stated the votes were random, I didn't remember why I said the votes weren't random until I was playing my violin just now.

[RyanK]

2. Why did you think it's completely unlikely PhantomCobalt is a scum? Why were you starting to do things only after you were being criticized for not doing so earlier?

Never have I stated that "it's completely unlikely PhantomCobalt is a scum." The only post where I even speak about the probability of PhantomCobalt being scum is in post #280, where all I stated is that I think it's a bit less probable than 50%, which is still a pretty high probability, and one of the best lynch candidates in my opinion. You're just putting words in my mouth here.

As for your second point, I haven't played a single game with any of you guys before, so I wanted a bit of time to read previous games of everyone here first. I still think I could've done more just after I was replaced in, and I apologize for not doing so. If you think this is AI, I would like an explanation as to why that is.

Sorry to put words in your mouth, it was a misinterpretion. And for such a clear explaination, you can't possibly be scum unless some other reason is found. UNVOTE: 0x40. I would love to vote for PhantomCobalt, but drawing a quickhammer isn't the kind of thing I would want to do now until later. Meanwhile, the most likely candidate would be rusty, so VOTE: rusty.

[RyanK]

2. Why did you think it's completely unlikely PhantomCobalt is a scum? Why were you starting to do things only after you were being criticized for not doing so earlier?

Never have I stated that "it's completely unlikely PhantomCobalt is a scum." The only post where I even speak about the probability of PhantomCobalt being scum is in post #280, where all I stated is that I think it's a bit less probable than 50%, which is still a pretty high probability, and one of the best lynch candidates in my opinion. You're just putting words in my mouth here.

As for your second point, I haven't played a single game with any of you guys before, so I wanted a bit of time to read previous games of everyone here first. I still think I could've done more just after I was replaced in, and I apologize for not doing so. If you think this is AI, I would like an explanation as to why that is.

Oh, and missed something, apology

accepted

.

[RyanK]

2. Why did you think it's completely unlikely PhantomCobalt is a scum? Why were you starting to do things only after you were being criticized for not doing so earlier?

Never have I stated that "it's completely unlikely PhantomCobalt is a scum." The only post where I even speak about the probability of PhantomCobalt being scum is in post #280, where all I stated is that I think it's a bit less probable than 50%, which is still a pretty high probability, and one of the best lynch candidates in my opinion. You're just putting words in my mouth here.

As for your second point, I haven't played a single game with any of you guys before, so I wanted a bit of time to read previous games of everyone here first. I still think I could've done more just after I was replaced in, and I apologize for not doing so. If you think this is AI, I would like an explanation as to why that is.

I think it's alignment indicative as, unless PhantomCoblat could come up with a logical explanation about why he counted rusty's vote, backing him up would be something only the scum would do, and my suspicion would remain until the person defending or PhantomCobalt can explain his actions clearly.

[RyanK]

2. Why did you think it's completely unlikely PhantomCobalt is a scum? Why were you starting to do things only after you were being criticized for not doing so earlier?

Never have I stated that "it's completely unlikely PhantomCobalt is a scum." The only post where I even speak about the probability of PhantomCobalt being scum is in post #280, where all I stated is that I think it's a bit less probable than 50%, which is still a pretty high probability, and one of the best lynch candidates in my opinion. You're just putting words in my mouth here.

As for your second point, I haven't played a single game with any of you guys before, so I wanted a bit of time to read previous games of everyone here first. I still think I could've done more just after I was replaced in, and I apologize for not doing so. If you think this is AI, I would like an explanation as to why that is.

I think it's alignment indicative as, unless PhantomCoblat could come up with a logical explanation about why he counted rusty's vote, backing him up would be something only the scum would do, and my suspicion would remain until the person defending or PhantomCobalt can explain his actions clearly.

Or had a good reason to back him up.

[RyanK]

PhantomCobalt, this is the third time I'm asking you, why didn't you know rusty's vote wouldn't count.

[RyanK]

If anyone scumreads 0x40 over Phantom then you need to walk away, give your head a wobble then return and rethink your reads.

What other evidence do you have with PhantomCobalt. Present these evidence. While the evidence isn't presented, VOTE: Maverick1102 for asking us to concentrate on PhantomCobalt for no reason.

Welcome to Scumdar, Inc., Maverick1102.

[RyanK]

If anyone scumreads 0x40 over Phantom then you need to walk away, give your head a wobble then return and rethink your reads.

Thoughts on vaxkiller?

Don't find him too mysterious. How about you, hiplop?

[RyanK]

I apologize but I will be V/LA for a short period of time. Again, I do have access to the internet and a computer. But I've just had dental surgery (just had a rod put in for an implant). So I'm on painkillers and slightly doozy, or in constant pain and unable to focus on anything as a result. Just give me a day to recuperate.

He is on truth serum! Quick ask him if hes scum!

Are you scum?

Who could possibly fall for that?

[RyanK]

VOTE: innocentvillager. Random voting again.

[RyanK]

That was productive.

What do you think about mine and cobalt's interactions? And the RQS as a whole thus far?

Why would you asked for people's opinions on your interactions with PhantomCobalt? Trying to cover up something with those? VOTE: Maverick1102

[RyanK]

Who could possibly fall for that?

Someone in a lot of pain and on drugs.

Only one problem with that method, I don't think he would be logging in until it's over.

[RyanK]

VOTE: innocentvillager. Random voting again.

Any reason to random voting at this stage of the game?
I mean, I'm only 5 pages through but I can already see that RVS is long gone.

I was completely clueless who to trust or not to trust, which is why I voted randomly just now.

[RyanK]

@Ox04 that's called hard stances, which shows that you fell confident about something and you want to be locked in. It's usually a towntell because you can't back out of it, whereas scum would rather say something like "I only voted blahblah because it was a wagon everyone agreed on".

Yes ready vax's posts seem a bit irky in my gut

At post 260, you were defending Vaxkiller. What is it that made you switch to attacking Vaxkiller in post 373. This is a behavioral contradiction and unless there is a good reason for it, you have to be scum.

[RyanK]

VOTE: Vedith
I'm 100% sure that was a scum flake

Also, what is a scum flake?

[RyanK]

Guys if i get lynched don't go after Mav, I'm almost certain that me vs. him is TvT

If PhantomCobalt is a scum, Maverick1102 is 100% in trouble as it is extremely logical for him to protect Maverick1102, his scumbuddy, or maybe that's what he wants us to think, so we should do the opposite, that is not lynch Maverick1102 as he may pretend to protect Maverick1102 so we lynch him. However, he also knows that we are very likely not to lynch Maverick1102 if that's the case, so he would protect his scumbuddy, Maverick1102, attempting to protect him after his death, so we should do the opposite, that's lynch Maverick1102. However, he also knows that we may lynch whoever he protected, so he protects a townie so we would lynch Maverick1102 an innocent townie after his death, so we should do the opposite...

Alright, I admit, it's a WIFOM. However, according to reso's points it just seems extremely likely which is PhantomCobalt doing. But if PhantomCobalt flips town, this post would be of no value in supporting Maverick1102 as scum.

[RyanK]

Spoiler:

I'm getting rather sick of the double standards in this game.

Cobalt puts someone at L-1, doesn't draw attention to it hoping someone will hammer and it very (very) nearly works but for a fluffed vote and a technicality in the rules.

I put someone at L-2, I draw attention to when it progresses to L-1 and I ask for intent to hammer and all of a sudden I'm scum?

Cobalt quickly backtracks (having no conviction in his vote-SCUM) and looks to earn townpoints by looking about for ways to not have the hammer apply (eventually settling on the same rule quote I do) and somehow succeeds.

I vote a legitimate scumread, ask for more votes, ask for intent to hammer and a claim and yet somehow I'm scummy for it?

First of all, you never put someone at L-2. Your only vote you've had to this point was your RVS (and thus not 'legitimate') vote of PhantomCobalt, which put him to L-4, which you've kept to this point as well. Then came IV's #106/Iso #12, and then RyanK's #222/Iso #64. And that's the highest it gets because RyanK unvotes in #255. I am not counting Rusty's RVS Post/#26 vote nor his #35 vote. Only if Rusty's vote were included would it have been possible for PhantomCobalt to be L-1. I find it questionable that you were able to accept Rusty's fakehammer as illegitimate, but proceed to include his vote onto the PhantomCobalt wagon.

And what double standards? The most anyone said about your vote was PhantomCobalt's #169, and then your vote went largely unnoticed because of the RyanK 'there is not scummy evidence against me' argument and the Vaxkiller's wording argument.

Your vote was not legitmate because it was initially an RVS vote. You didn't ask for more votes. In Post #168, you say that you are happy with you vote, and ask for people to state why they aren't joining you on the PhantomCobalt wagon, despite not having done anything convince anyone else to join you up to that point, such as typing up a case for us. RyanK does vote you because of your calling for an intent to hammer, but you were able to quickly convince on why you think it's a good idea. I called you out on an admittedly dumber-than-dumb reason, which I then jumped off after you explained it so. And PhantomCobalt jumps on for reasons of weak logic (and a little bit of OMGUS, I'm willing to believe). So 1/3 of the people that voted for you on that intent to hammer and claim.

If anybody thinks scum isn't on my wagon (cough COBALT cough) then you seriously need to walk away, give your head a wobble to make sure it's screwed on, then return to the game and vote for Cobalt. I'm seriously getting frustrated that scum is pulling so hard on town's strings here.

BTW, fuck you too. What's with the personal attack against anyone not voting for Cobalt? 'Walk away, give your head a wobble to makes sure it's screwed on, then return to the game and vote for Cobalt'? Might as well just have said that anyone not on the Cobalt wagon is dumb and not right in the head, because it would have been easier for us dumb folk to understand what you are saying.

Your scumminess needs fixing. With a lynch. I don't care if I'm tunnelled, I'm tunnelled on scum.

Let's talk about double standards. in Post #253/Iso #19, you call out 0x40 for being tunneled and tell him to stop it because it's distracting. But as soon as you do it, it's completely fine? Get off your high horse.

That's a wild switch. Ryan why have you gone from seemingly scumreading Cobalt in your #350 and pushing on him, to suddenly scumreading me for calling for votes on my #1 scumread which I have held ALL DAY and explained at least once in full.

Seems rather odd, no?

Look, every post I've made that displays my case. I'm not rewording it for those who are too lazy to reread it.

Still don't understand why couldn't have reworded it, and presented in one summarized post. If it meant helping the town, why didn't you just do it? It seems to me that you'd rather put getting your agenda through more important than helping the town and convincing them to join your cause. If you want the town to join your side, then yeah, you have to work a little extra. Not insult them for not voting for the person you're voting for nor for not thinking the way you think (Post #360/Iso #30, Post #400/Iso #35).

I had already found another reason he may be scum, but PhantomCobalt has got to be revealed to be scum for it to be true. Here's the quote.

[RyanK]

Sorry, messed up my previous two posts because I wrote both of them seperately. Let me rephrase it.

Spoiler:

I'm getting rather sick of the double standards in this game.

Cobalt puts someone at L-1, doesn't draw attention to it hoping someone will hammer and it very (very) nearly works but for a fluffed vote and a technicality in the rules.

I put someone at L-2, I draw attention to when it progresses to L-1 and I ask for intent to hammer and all of a sudden I'm scum?

Cobalt quickly backtracks (having no conviction in his vote-SCUM) and looks to earn townpoints by looking about for ways to not have the hammer apply (eventually settling on the same rule quote I do) and somehow succeeds.

I vote a legitimate scumread, ask for more votes, ask for intent to hammer and a claim and yet somehow I'm scummy for it?

First of all, you never put someone at L-2. Your only vote you've had to this point was your RVS (and thus not 'legitimate') vote of PhantomCobalt, which put him to L-4, which you've kept to this point as well. Then came IV's #106/Iso #12, and then RyanK's #222/Iso #64. And that's the highest it gets because RyanK unvotes in #255. I am not counting Rusty's RVS Post/#26 vote nor his #35 vote. Only if Rusty's vote were included would it have been possible for PhantomCobalt to be L-1. I find it questionable that you were able to accept Rusty's fakehammer as illegitimate, but proceed to include his vote onto the PhantomCobalt wagon.

And what double standards? The most anyone said about your vote was PhantomCobalt's #169, and then your vote went largely unnoticed because of the RyanK 'there is not scummy evidence against me' argument and the Vaxkiller's wording argument.

Your vote was not legitmate because it was initially an RVS vote. You didn't ask for more votes. In Post #168, you say that you are happy with you vote, and ask for people to state why they aren't joining you on the PhantomCobalt wagon, despite not having done anything convince anyone else to join you up to that point, such as typing up a case for us. RyanK does vote you because of your calling for an intent to hammer, but you were able to quickly convince on why you think it's a good idea. I called you out on an admittedly dumber-than-dumb reason, which I then jumped off after you explained it so. And PhantomCobalt jumps on for reasons of weak logic (and a little bit of OMGUS, I'm willing to believe). So 1/3 of the people that voted for you on that intent to hammer and claim.

If anybody thinks scum isn't on my wagon (cough COBALT cough) then you seriously need to walk away, give your head a wobble to make sure it's screwed on, then return to the game and vote for Cobalt. I'm seriously getting frustrated that scum is pulling so hard on town's strings here.

BTW, fuck you too. What's with the personal attack against anyone not voting for Cobalt? 'Walk away, give your head a wobble to makes sure it's screwed on, then return to the game and vote for Cobalt'? Might as well just have said that anyone not on the Cobalt wagon is dumb and not right in the head, because it would have been easier for us dumb folk to understand what you are saying.

Your scumminess needs fixing. With a lynch. I don't care if I'm tunnelled, I'm tunnelled on scum.

Let's talk about double standards. in Post #253/Iso #19, you call out 0x40 for being tunneled and tell him to stop it because it's distracting. But as soon as you do it, it's completely fine? Get off your high horse.

That's a wild switch. Ryan why have you gone from seemingly scumreading Cobalt in your #350 and pushing on him, to suddenly scumreading me for calling for votes on my #1 scumread which I have held ALL DAY and explained at least once in full.

Seems rather odd, no?

Look, every post I've made that displays my case. I'm not rewording it for those who are too lazy to reread it.

Still don't understand why couldn't have reworded it, and presented in one summarized post. If it meant helping the town, why didn't you just do it? It seems to me that you'd rather put getting your agenda through more important than helping the town and convincing them to join your cause. If you want the town to join your side, then yeah, you have to work a little extra. Not insult them for not voting for the person you're voting for nor for not thinking the way you think (Post #360/Iso #30, Post #400/Iso #35).

I had already found another reason he may be scum, but PhantomCobalt has got to be revealed to be scum for it to be true. Here's the quote.[/quote]

Guys if i get lynched don't go after Mav, I'm almost certain that me vs. him is TvT

If PhantomCobalt is a scum, Maverick1102 is 100% in trouble as it is extremely logical for him to protect Maverick1102, his scumbuddy, or maybe that's what he wants us to think, so we should do the opposite, that is not lynch Maverick1102 as he may pretend to protect Maverick1102 so we lynch him. However, he also knows that we are very likely not to lynch Maverick1102 if that's the case, so he would protect his scumbuddy, Maverick1102, attempting to protect him after his death, so we should do the opposite, that's lynch Maverick1102. However, he also knows that we may lynch whoever he protected, so he protects a townie so we would lynch Maverick1102 an innocent townie after his death, so we should do the opposite...

Alright, I admit, it's a WIFOM. However, according to reso's points it just seems extremely likely which is PhantomCobalt doing. But if PhantomCobalt flips town, this post would be of no value in supporting Maverick1102 as scum.

[RyanK]

Any last words before I place the hammer vote, PhantomCobalt?

[RyanK]

Any last words before I place the hammer vote, PhantomCobalt?

OI.

You're going to hammer at a time when people aren't very available, and before he's had a chance to retort to any following criticism?

From his posts, he is typically actively starting in 12 hours and you asking him NOW if he has last words?

Don't worry, I'm giving him 24 hours to respond to my previous post asking for last words. (Although I didn't state it.)

[RyanK]

If PhantomCobalt is a scum, Maverick1102 is 100% in trouble as it is extremely logical for him to protect Maverick1102

Maverick was never under pressure. Phantom, As scum, will know Maverick's align and therefore probably try to buddy up or confuse the reads.
He seems to believe that Maverick is the most vocal in lynching him (which is the case) so I can see him trying to shoot this down as scum.
I'm not sure why Maverick will be in trouble here for that post alone.

Alright, maybe it's already a mess up even before PhantomCobalt flips scum as WIFOM situations are generally unreliable for scum reads on second thought.

[RyanK]

I'll start with RyanK, I guess. He's been the easiest person to read this game so far.

While going through RyanK's ISO, I actually found his Post #193/Iso #52 pretty interesting, because of how I typically perceive how Newbie games are set up. I am of the understanding that the mafia is typically composed one experienced player and one newer player so the experienced player can more or less guide/teach the newbie on mafia play. I think it's also worth pointing out that, with the exception of his vote on me in Post #180/Iso #42 (because I more or less goaded him into it) and Vaxkiller in Post #124/Iso #26 (for the sake of a reaction????), all of his votes and actual suspicions up to this point were for either the IC or the SE's. If I were the mafia, the easy way to win a newbie game would be to first slow down the amount of useful information getting into the thread, and the easiest way to do that would be to get rid of those with the experience. Also worth noting, it took a 12 post period of time for him to voice who he thought was scum and actually voting for said scum suspects.

And he goes and does a decent amount of analyzing and countering and scum searching afterwards, but then we get to his #381/Iso #101:

VOTE: innocentvillager. Random voting again.

You did a great deal of arguing and conversing, and you just don't have leads or thoughts about anyone??? And so you resort to random voting again??? You even made a list of who is most likely to be scum in Post #303/Iso #82, and you still revert to 'random voting'? This is most questionable indeed. Also worth noting that all of your 'random' votes have been of IV (except for that very first one, but you quickly switched to a vote for IV in the post after).

Actually, PhantomCobalt and Maverick1102 had persuaded me they aren't scum succesfully only because they had defended the only reasons I had to say they are scum. I decided that I would vote for a random person while I look for something that is scummy, which is when I found post 27 where Maverick is asking Rusty, who has regenerated into Vedith, how he think about his interections with PhantomCobalt. So I just took it to poke a reaction, where Maverick seemed to be quite extraordinarily raged.

[RyanK]

PhantomCobalt, please make a statement in (expired on 2016-07-29 19:34:31).

[RyanK]

PhantomCobalt, please make a statement in (expired on 2016-07-29 19:34:31) or I'll quickhammer you.

[RyanK]

PhantomCobalt, please make a statement in (expired on 2016-07-29 19:34:31) or I'll quickhammer you.

A quickhammer is when you hammer without stating your intent to do so. You've expressed your intent to hammer, and even given a time frame as well. Your just doing a regular hammer.

Oh, got the definition wrong. I thought a quickhammer is a hammer without the player making a defence first.

[RyanK]

PhantomCobalt, please make a statement in (expired on 2016-07-29 19:34:31) or I'll quickhammer you.

A quickhammer is when you hammer without stating your intent to do so. You've expressed your intent to hammer, and even given a time frame as well. Your just doing a regular hammer.

Oh, got the definition wrong. I thought a quickhammer is a hammer without the player making a defence first.

Just noticed that even with this definition, he had already made some defences, well, I'm just going to give him some grace wait till this countdown expires then I would hammer him on the head. Let's see what he has to say.

[RyanK]

If my own VC is correct IV is at L-2 right now

Unfortunately...... IV was at L-0 for 3 minutes after Rusty's vote.

LIKE, what the actual fuck, Rusty. SERIOUSLY WHAT THE FUCK.

Isn't there regulations about words in the English language that can mean anything?
It's my opinion that this post is what made rusty quit.

[RyanK]

Spoiler:

So, I still don't have much, if anything, to post about Vedith. So, I'll just start by posting his thoughts about me.

reso

- I feel the reaction to the L1 was over exaggerated. What I didn't like though, was

the voting before hand

and putting RyanK and IV as his suspects with the impression that he doesn't care who is lynched from them.

First of all, I don't quite understand the wording of the bold. Because in my Post #64/Iso #5, I explain my reasoning and vote afterwards, and not before. There are follow up inquiries about my reason and answer them as them. But that shouldn't be counted as my reasoning after my vote.

And I did show care for who I'd rather see lynched first, and a secondary reason why. I don't know what you are looking at exactly.

The reasoning was bad as well, because he used him in an example. I didn't feel that he was trying to pressure with his vote, so I'm not sure what he was hoping for by voting other than looking town.

I agree that my reasoning is bad here. I feel like to try and get out of RVS, someone has to go out of their own way to attack someone in a weird way, so I decided to go out on a limb and attack something that I felt was a possible scum slip. Before this post, the game was stuck in a state of RVS/RQS and theory-questioning. And afterwards, discussion about the actual game at hand started to flow. I may have gotten a bit aggressive, but you are right in that I was not trying to pressure anyone with this vote.

His stops voting IV (keeping in mind he barley mentions him, even though his vote is still on IV) and turns to Maverick briefly.

My vote on Maverick.... was serious, but admittedly dumber-than-dumb. IN MY DEFENSE, everyone else beforehand referred to innocentvillager as IV, and at the other forum that I play at, innocents are referred to as 'inno'. I was just being a dumb.

Giving a 3 strike policy lynch rule is terrible and anti town. Policy lynches are always anti town imo (Go on, challenge me with that comment!).

I agree with you that Policy Lynches are always anti-town, but only so in the statistical sense, that there will always be more town than there are scum. I don't lynch by policy for the sake for the sake of the town. I do so for the sake of the game. If a player does some bad in general game-wise, I will call them out on it, but if said player continues their bad general play and/or behavior, then I will happily vote to get rid of them.

Example: one of my most recent finished games was a 45-man literal-day period chocolate game. There were many lurkers and the mods could not find enough subs. Mass mod-killing would have broken the game, so we instead opted to regularly policy lynch the lurkers and inactives. It also allowed for extending discussion time. While the majority of those that were PL'd were town, there were some scum that were PL'd as well.

I use policy lynches for the sake of the game, not for the sake of the town.

If he was that angry, he would gave pressured instead of giving out a warning.

I chose to give a warning instead of extreme pressuring because this is a NEWBIE GAME. A game where newbies come to learn to play the game. Looking at Rusty's previous posts, it was evident that he was a bonafide newbie.

I did not want to scare him away like what happened in my own first game, so I gave him a warning instead of further pressuring.

Spoiler:

Hammering so soon in the day is a strong scum tell generally(I don't believe that he realised it was a hammer).

Can this also be said for newbies?

Isn't it the very thing he said he didn't want to do.

[RyanK]

I didn't put a time frame for my hammer for no reason, I am trying to buy ourselves some time to look for the other scumbuddy. But I feel as though things have slowed down.

[RyanK]

Also..... could you explain to me how exactly you are putting on a quantitative quality on how certain you are that someone is going to turn up scum or town? Because that is incredibly beyond me.

It's simple. I know that I'm town, and there are 8 other players, which means that from my point of view, there has to be 2 scum among those 8 players.
Probability of any of those players being scum = 8 / 2 = 0.25, or 25%. When someone does something scummy/towny, it increases the probability of that person being scum/town by an amount based mostly on statistics and educated guesses, and slightly decreases everyone else's probability of being scum/town because that's how math and probability works. I think giving actual numbers, even if they are far from perfectly accurate, is much better than being needlessly vague with wording like "likely scum," "very likely scum," or "somewhat likely scum." For example, when Marverick1102 said that he'd be surprised if PhantomCobalt flipped town, does that mean he thinks it's about 20% likely he'll flip town, or 1% likely he'll flip town? His wording could easily be stretched to mean either, but one of those numbers is twenty times larger than the other.

The number may be 20 times bigger, but it doesn't really change it's meaning much. If you disagree with me on this, explain how.
About the color, it's just a color you could recognize me with in this game.

[RyanK]

Also..... could you explain to me how exactly you are putting on a quantitative quality on how certain you are that someone is going to turn up scum or town? Because that is incredibly beyond me.

It's simple. I know that I'm town, and there are 8 other players, which means that from my point of view, there has to be 2 scum among those 8 players.
Probability of any of those players being scum = 8 / 2 = 0.25, or 25%. When someone does something scummy/towny, it increases the probability of that person being scum/town by an amount based mostly on statistics and educated guesses, and slightly decreases everyone else's probability of being scum/town because that's how math and probability works. I think giving actual numbers, even if they are far from perfectly accurate, is much better than being needlessly vague with wording like "likely scum," "very likely scum," or "somewhat likely scum." For example, when Marverick1102 said that he'd be surprised if PhantomCobalt flipped town, does that mean he thinks it's about 20% likely he'll flip town, or 1% likely he'll flip town? His wording could easily be stretched to mean either, but one of those numbers is twenty times larger than the other.

The number may be 20 times bigger, but it doesn't really change it's meaning much. If you disagree with me on this, explain how.
About the color, it's just a color you could recognize me with in this game.

Sorry, maybe you shouldn't. I may be impersonated, but I still love colors.

[RyanK]

The number may be 20 times bigger, but it doesn't really change it's meaning much. If you disagree with me on this, explain how.

Not sure I understand what you're getting at here. Would you mind rephrasing that?
Anyway, the point is that if in this example, if Marverick1102 had used numbers instead, everyone would get a much better idea of how probable he thinks it is that PahntomCobalt flips town. Him just saying that he'd be surprised gives a lot less information. Do you disagree with this?

I do. Why?
Does a 20% chance differ a lot from 1% chance? Mathematics isn't even able to accurately tell what are the chances something will happen. Even if it does, the fact that you say the numbers are approximations, simply just mean that it would give a way similar information.

[RyanK]

If I was to say % wise how sure am I of Phantom scum, I wouldn't be able to answer.

Why wouldn't you be able to answer? Surely you could at least give a rough estimate.

If we are going to use rough estimates, we might as well use words, which are practically an equivalent to a rough estimate. If you disagree with me, please state why.

[RyanK]

If we are going to use rough estimates, we might as well use words, which are practically an equivalent to a rough estimate. If you disagree with me, please state why.

I have already stated why in post #499. Words can have different meanings depending on who's using them, and can be interpreted differently depending on who's reading them. This is much less of a problem with numbers, even if they are just estimates. Being able to state something, then later state that you meant something else is a pretty big advantage for scum, and avoiding unnecessary vagueness helps play around this advantage.

You would better list a list of rules, otherwise, people can change what they mean by those numbers.

[RyanK]

Why wouldn't you be able to answer? Surely you could at least give a rough estimate.

I could give a rough estimate, I could say 51%. Meaning that I think it is more likely than not. This actually gives the wrong impression... It implies that he is more null than scum, however, I'm saying that I think he will flip scum, not town.
That's an example btw .

I see what you are saying with people wording this in a way to get out of it, but the fact that anyone says "will most likely flip scum" has no effect on %.
If anything, % gives a way out - "Oh, I was 20% on him being town, I should have gone with it" rather than

"I was wrong that he is was most likely scum"

.

Sorry, but I've got difficulty understanding what the bolded part is trying to say.

[RyanK]

Sorry, but I've got difficulty understanding what the bolded part is trying to say.

Sorry, work posting

It should say - I was wrong when I thought he was most likely scum.

I can't see how anyone can talk their way out of it with a comment of "most likely scum" where they can't talk their way out of it with an "80% chance" comment.

I agree with you on that, in fact, numbers are left even more to interpretion.

[RyanK]

If we are going to use rough estimates, we might as well use words, which are practically an equivalent to a rough estimate. If you disagree with me, please state why.

I have already stated why in post #499. Words can have different meanings depending on who's using them, and can be interpreted differently depending on who's reading them. This is much less of a problem with numbers, even if they are just estimates. Being able to state something, then later state that you meant something else is a pretty big advantage for scum, and avoiding unnecessary vagueness helps play around this advantage.

Numbers can also have different meanings depending on who's using them, and can be interpreted differently depending on who's interpreting them. This is much less of a problem with words, which may be estimates, but states rather clearly on a scale how confident one is during a statement. Common phrases on this scale are.
has to be, must be, should be, is-very high
could be, probably, likely-slightly high
musn't be, shouldn't be-slightly low
can't be, impossible-very low

[RyanK]

Why wouldn't you be able to answer? Surely you could at least give a rough estimate.

I could give a rough estimate, I could say 51%. Meaning that I think it is more likely than not. This actually gives the wrong impression... It implies that he is more null than scum, however, I'm saying that I think he will flip scum, not town.
That's an example btw .

I see what you are saying with people wording this in a way to get out of it, but the fact that anyone says "will most likely flip scum" has no effect on %.
If anything, % gives a way out - "Oh, I was 20% on him being town, I should have gone with it" rather than "I was wrong that he is was most likely scum".

A null read on someone would make them 25% likely to be scum, not 50%, because there are 4 times as many townies as there are scum from any given town player's perspective.

I don't really see how that's a way out. Saying that you should've gone for the 20% that he wasn't scum makes no sense whatsoever.

There is also another way to see it: there are two alignments, the town and mafia, so the chances are 50%. 25% would only be used if you're comparing it with the whole group, which in my opinion is impossible to be done.

It does make sense. Do your math. 20% not scum = the other 80% scum.

[RyanK]

Numbers can also have different meanings depending on who's using them, and can be interpreted differently depending on who's interpreting them. This is much less of a problem with words, which may be estimates, but states rather clearly on a scale how confident one is during a statement. Common phrases on this scale are.
has to be, must be, should be, is-very high
could be, probably, likely-slightly high
musn't be, shouldn't be-slightly low
can't be, impossible-very low

Last time I checked, impossible means impossible. Not a very low chance, but zero chance. Same thing with "has to be" and "must be," which means the exact opposite, and "mustn't be" and "can't be," which are synonymous with impossible. Numbers have the exact same meaning to everyone. 3 apples is 3 apples, and there's no way that one could twist that to mean 30 or 3 billion apples. Words clearly have this problem, as you are demonstrating right now. How is "mustn't be" and "can't be" not the same?

Impossible for chances can't mean impossible as, they're chances! It's never impossible when it's a chance. As for the mustn't be,it shouldn't even be used for chances (sorry, my error) as it is usually used for asking some one to do something, like it must be done/mustn't be done this way. Should be is the same as mustn't be so it also shouldn't be used for chances (again, my error). Can't be is equivalent to impossible as you say. Finally being able to decode this feels so good.

[RyanK]

Numbers can also have different meanings depending on who's using them, and can be interpreted differently depending on who's interpreting them. This is much less of a problem with words, which may be estimates, but states rather clearly on a scale how confident one is during a statement. Common phrases on this scale are.
has to be, must be, should be, is-very high
could be, probably, likely-slightly high
musn't be, shouldn't be-slightly low
can't be, impossible-very low

Last time I checked, impossible means impossible. Not a very low chance, but zero chance. Same thing with "has to be" and "must be," which means the exact opposite, and "mustn't be" and "can't be," which are synonymous with impossible. Numbers have the exact same meaning to everyone. 3 apples is 3 apples, and there's no way that one could twist that to mean 30 or 3 billion apples. Words clearly have this problem, as you are demonstrating right now. How is "mustn't be" and "can't be" not the same?

Has to be, and is are the exact opposite of impossible. It feels like debunking Einstein, typing all this.

[RyanK]

...
Impossible for chances can't mean impossible as, they're chances! It's never impossible when it's a chance. As for the mustn't be,it shouldn't even be used for chances (sorry, my error) as it is usually used for asking some one to do something, like it must be done/mustn't be done this way. Should be is the same as mustn't be so it also shouldn't be used for chances (again, my error). Can't be is equivalent to impossible as you say. Finally being able to decode this feels so good.

Just one more thing to clarify before you go on to say that mustn't be and shouldn't be have a difference, they do (typo, it shouldn't be should be). Mustn't be means that if done any other way, it's incorrect and won't work (although this usually is not true, as there usually is another way to do something). Shouldn't be means that, if done any other way it may still work, although the "proper" way is to do it the suggested way.

[RyanK]

There is also another way to see it: there are two alignments, the town and mafia, so the chances are 50%.

This is not at all a proper way of seeing things. Just because there are 2 possibilities doesn't mean it's a 50/50 chance.

Why not?
Dalek: Explaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaain.

[RyanK]

There is also another way to see it: there are two alignments, the town and mafia, so the chances are 50%.

This is not at all a proper way of seeing things. Just because there are 2 possibilities doesn't mean it's a 50/50 chance.

Why not?
Dalek: Explaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaain.

By your own logic, just because 9/11 either was or was not an inside job, it's a 50/50 chance that it was/wasn't. Can't you see how ridiculous that is? The probability of someone being scum in a group of 8 players where 2 are scum is 2/8, 0.25, or 25%. This is basic math.

It's even more illogical by yours. There are lesser "inside" people than "outside people, so the chance that 9/11 was an inside job is "inside"/"outside"=>50%

[RyanK]

It's pretty close to the end of Day 1, and I know I initially brought it up, BUT ARE YOU GUYS SERIOUSLY GOING TO SPEND TIME TALKING ABOUT THE SEMANTICS OF NUMBER PERCENTAGES AND THE FEELING OF USING WORDS???

I don't think we should, but it does feel like a school debate, and debates are interesting.

[RyanK]

It's pretty close to the end of Day 1, and I know I initially brought it up, BUT ARE YOU GUYS SERIOUSLY GOING TO SPEND TIME TALKING ABOUT THE SEMANTICS OF NUMBER PERCENTAGES AND THE FEELING OF USING WORDS???

I don't think we should, but it does feel like a school debate, and debates are interesting.

Yes, but it's not at all beneficial for the town.

[RyanK]

It's pretty close to the end of Day 1, and I know I initially brought it up, BUT ARE YOU GUYS SERIOUSLY GOING TO SPEND TIME TALKING ABOUT THE SEMANTICS OF NUMBER PERCENTAGES AND THE FEELING OF USING WORDS???

I don't think we should, but it does feel like a school debate, and debates are interesting.

Yes, but it's not at all beneficial for the town.

Agree with you, Ryan.

[RyanK]

Argghhh

Let's say you have 100 marbles in a bag, 99 red, and 1 blue. There are two possibilities, a red or a blue. However, if you reach into the bag and grab one out, it's 99 out of 100 times red.

That's exactly what I've been saying. If you put 8 players in a bag, 2 of them are scum, then pull one out of the bag to lynch them, the probability of them flipping scum is 25%, not 50%.

Well, thanks for the example. It can be quite hard to understand that without an example that isn't easy to understand. However, this is where my mind keeps breaking down.

50% is if you're looking at the person individually.

25% is if you're looking at everyone else as a whole.

So, which one should it be???

[RyanK]

Argghhh

Let's say you have 100 marbles in a bag, 99 red, and 1 blue. There are two possibilities, a red or a blue. However, if you reach into the bag and grab one out, it's 99 out of 100 times red.

That's exactly what I've been saying. If you put 8 players in a bag, 2 of them are scum, then pull one out of the bag to lynch them, the probability of them flipping scum is 25%, not 50%.

Well, thanks for the example. It can be quite hard to understand that without an example that isn't easy to understand. However, this is where my mind keeps breaking down.

50% is if you're looking at the person individually.

25% is if you're looking at everyone else as a whole.

So, which one should it be???

*So, which one should it be and why?

[RyanK]

Well, thanks for the example. It can be quite hard to understand that without an example that isn't easy to understand. However, this is where my mind keeps breaking down.

50% is

if you're looking at the person individually.

25% is if you're looking at everyone else as a whole.

So, which one should it be???

Can you elaborate what you mean by the bolded part?

It means only concentrating on that person without concentrating anywhere else.

[RyanK]

Yes, but it's not at all beneficial for the town.

It doesn't really hurt town, either.

Does anyone have any better ideas on how to spend this last bit of time we have left on d1?

Scumhunting, which is the reason why you brought this in, I guess.

[RyanK]

About the ratios, let me think about it offline, like while I go to sleep and after I wake up, I need some mental refreshment. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.

[RyanK]

Hammer in (expired on 2016-07-29 19:34:31)

[RyanK]

VOTE: PhantomCobalt

[RyanK]

I decided to utilize my time doing this during the night.
Reso, sorry for hammering, if it was wrong.
0x40 inspired me to do this with his numbers debate, let's get started.
I'm using an algorithm I learned from innocentvillager's votecount table in Newbie 1725: Innocents, Inc.
Introduction means that the player reveals some personality or own past (not implied, but stated)
Any suggested improvements are welcome to be suggested.
The later isolations will be posted later

reso post analysis

Table 1(isolation 0-9)

Spoiler:

Post number, Isolation number characteristic	#7,0	#8,1	#12,2	#32,3	#36,4	#64,5	#69,6	#72,7	#74,8	#77,9
Accusation						✓
Advice for mafia	✓
Advice for town
Advice to specific player					✓
Apology			✓
Assumption						✓		✓
Exclamation	✓
Introduction	✓	✓		✓
Opinion on game theory	✓	✓		✓
Opinion on player						✓		✓
Post Correction		✓
Voting		✓				✓
Interrogation			✓				✓	✓	✓
Defence										✓
Explanation						✓		✓
Tunneling
Opinion on an idea									✓	✓

[RyanK]

Also, if you believe any errors were made, or would like to suggest an improvement, you could post it here.

reso post analysis

Table 1(isolation 0-9)

Spoiler:

Post number, Isolation number characteristic	#7,0	#8,1	#12,2	#32,3	#36,4	#64,5	#69,6	#72,7	#74,8	#77,9	Sub-total	Percentage
Advice for town											0	0%
Tunneling											0	0%
Accusation						✓					1	(3.7037037037...)%
Advice for mafia	✓										1	(3.7037037037...)%
Advice to specific player					✓						1	(3.7037037037...)%
Apology			✓								1	(3.7037037037...)%
Defence										✓	1	(3.7037037037...)%
Exclamation	✓										1	(3.7037037037...)%
Post Correction		✓									1	(3.7037037037...)%
Assumption						✓		✓			2	(7.4074074074...)%
Explanation						✓		✓			2	(7.4074074074...)%
Opinion on an idea									✓	✓	2	(7.4074074074...)%
Opinion on player						✓		✓			2	(7.4074074074...)%
Voting		✓				✓					2	(7.4074074074...)%
Introduction	✓	✓		✓							3	(11.1111111111...)%
Opinion on game theory	✓	✓		✓							3	(11.1111111111...)%
Interrogation			✓				✓	✓	✓		4	(14.8148148148...)%
Sub-total	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	27	100%

[RyanK]

Of course, if anyone would like to use the algorithm to create their own table analysis, they're free to do so.

[RyanK]

I was planning to create another table, however, it's too tiring a job. If anyone woulld like to take over, they may do so.

[RyanK]

Also, I would rather not waste my time creating tables on second thought. I thought the only progress I could make was creating a table, but I discovered I won't need one. Whoever who thinks they need one though, they may create one.

[RyanK]

...

Fearlessness against what exactly?

His initial vote and vote switch was pretty much back-to-back and it was still RVS. What's there to fear in RVS? Are you to be feared then? The only ones to be feared in this game are the ones with that kill without warrant.

The coloured part is where I don't think even a tenous answer was given on that part. Although I know you weren't townreading me for no reason, I still don't understand what that reason was, innocentvillager.

[RyanK]

Mav is making me feel uncomfortable with his tunneling, but not sure if its confbias (whether right or wrong) or scum baiting a mislynch.

Maverick1102 was wrong and may be a scum baiting and successfully caused a mislynch. VOTE: Maverick1102

[RyanK]

Can you explain your table a little?

Did you go into the table expecting to find something, and was that different than what you found?

Why do you keep using different colors, can you pick on and stick with it (its kinda confusing and not very helpful)

I was expecting something to be found, but I found nothing, so I thought I should publish it to see if you can spot anything. Then, I spotted several "gold mines" that I thought I should dig rather than the one that I was still trying to open up.
Alright, will pick one to be stuck with.

[RyanK]

What's a VC holder?

[RyanK]

The table is meant to be a behavioral analysis for behavioral inconsistantcies. It's just that it's too much work for one to be made, like the mine is surrounded by diamonds which requires me to use diamonds to mine them. I would rather find inconsistancies using "cheaper" methods.

[RyanK]

Actually, I just spotted something with the table, reso interrogates very frequently. However, that has already been figured out before I created the table, so, I'm just going to use cheaper methods.

[RyanK]

Maverick1102

He was making personal attacks that would cause peer pressure, that would in turn, cause us to vote for PhantomCobalt, who was a vanilla townie. I should never have broken my policy that people who come up with a reason isn't a scum, as they aren't hiding anything. PhantomCobalt did state that he just didn't see it properly, just that, we were just too certain PhantomCobalt was scum, thanks to Maverick1102. Also should have heeded reso's warning that PhantomCobalt's case has been blown out of proportion, just that all that excitement that "we have caught a scum" caused me to turn a deaf ear. Who's responsible for all this, Maverick1102. Make a defense, like what PhantomCobalt has done. I'm not moving my vote till you explain your actions on Day 1.

[RyanK]

... we were just too certain PhantomCobalt was scum...

...

I was

just too certain PhantomCobalt was scum

[RyanK]

What's yours, Vaxkiller?

[RyanK]

I don't understand the 0x40 lynch, why didn't they target someone with experience? If anyone with experience died would it have pointed to anyone? Why did they target newbie town?

I've been thinking of this all day and can't find an answer (there probably isn't one, but if someone has one that would be great!!!!)

Also can we all post a little more????????? Geez!

I know there are people among us who would know it. They are the mafiosi. They are completely unlikely to reveal it, though.

This is my guess. The mafiosi guessed there may be a doctor in this game, and decided that if they kill an inexperienced player at night, the are more likely to succesfully do it as the doctor is unlikely to protect an inexperienced player from a night kill. If there is a doctor in this game, you know what to do.

[RyanK]

Mav is making me feel uncomfortable with his tunneling, but not sure if its confbias (whether right or wrong) or scum baiting a mislynch.

Maverick1102 was wrong and may be a scum baiting and successfully caused a mislynch. VOTE: Maverick1102

Technically, while Maverick certainly spent the greatest amount of time arguing for the lynching of PhantomCobalt, his vote has been on Phantom since RVS. You, on the other hand, decided to place the hammering vote and denies hiplop and IV the opportunity to express themselves if they were going to do so, because I was very much expecting something from them. Arguable, it was you that caused the mislynch for having dealt the finishing blow without taking into consideration the discussion circumstances.

If they really didn't want a hammer to happen, they wouldn't have let their vote remain on PhantomCobalt.

So, considering that Maverick1102 has responded, I'm going to go to the next likely player.

Hiplop stated saying he wouldn't like a hammer for a while, but he never unvoted PhantomCobalt to delay the hammer.

Also, in his first post, he stated:

1) When/how often do you expect to post?

Likely a few times a day. I'm not too busy for this month! I am known for somewhat sporadic, frantic posting at times which I try to quell for newbie games...but yea!
...

yet, he's one of those who have posted the least in the game so far (excluding the eliminated players). For this contradicting action, VOTE: hiplop

[RyanK]

UNVOTE: hiplop I think that we should hammer him after we find the second scum, as it would be MyLo even if we lynch a scum today, unless no night kills are successfully made. Also, if he really is a scum, he may self-hammer to reduce our discussion time, which would definitely allow the second scum to hide longer, and overall decrease our time to look for the scum. Until I can locate a second person who may be a scum, I'm not voting unless it's close to the end of the day.

[RyanK]

UNVOTE: VaxKiller
VOTE: HipLop

That's L1.
Good spot Ryan. Although I disagree with the comment, and he is normally a low poster (in games I've had with him) it's still a lie he's posted.

I do not want a hammer until HipLop and others have spoken, intent is fine though.

Thanks for the compliment.

Anyway, if you don't want a hammer until Hiplop and others have spoken, I don't think you should even place a vote that risks it. Please explain your actions. Meanwhile, VOTE: Vedith

[RyanK]

...

Fearlessness against what exactly?

His initial vote and vote switch was pretty much back-to-back and it was still RVS. What's there to fear in RVS? Are you to be feared then? The only ones to be feared in this game are the ones with that kill without warrant.
...

Second time

Can you please answer the colored part, innocentvillager, I need some understanding on your town read.

Fos:innocentvillager[/b]

[RyanK]

All three of them will need a clarification, unless we spot something in any of their previous posts.

Anyway, here's a list of their current status
Hiplop-2 accusations, post 14 as he didn't post as much as he stated he would, andpost 485 for preferring a delay in hammer but doing nothing to cause it.

innocentvillager-1 accusation, trying to partner up with me to make me think he's town.

Vedith-1 accusation Requesting people not to hammer, but placed a pre-hammer vote.

[RyanK]

All three of them will need a clarification, unless we spot something in any of their previous posts.

Anyway, here's a list of their current status
Hiplop-2 accusations, post 14 as he didn't post as much as he stated he would, andpost 485 for preferring a delay in hammer but doing nothing to cause it.

innocentvillager-1 accusation, trying to partner up with me to make me think he's town.

Vedith-1 accusation Requesting people not to hammer, but placed a pre-hammer vote.

Edit: innocentvillager-1 accusation, trying to partner up with me by giving me a town read to make me think he's town.

[RyanK]

...

1) When/how often do you expect to post?

Likely a few times a day. I'm not too busy for this month! I am known for somewhat sporadic, frantic posting at times which I try to quell for newbie games...but yea!
...

Why did you claim you'll post a few times a day, but you didn't do so. You should definitely know better you don't post at that rate.

Don't find him too mysterious. How about you, hiplop?

Really think hes scum. And it is paining me that I can't find the words as to why

Tell us what makes you think so.

Anyway, if you don't want a hammer until Hiplop and others have spoken, I don't think you should even place a vote that risks it. Please explain your actions. Meanwhile, VOTE: Vedith

It's called giving pressure. You'll learn it, don't worry.

I would rather not risk it though UNVOTE: Vedith. More time=more clearer picture of everyone's behavior=more likelihood of lynching mafia, which is exactly what the mafia wouldn't want.

For now, VOTE: innocentvillager. He may probably be busy with writing flavour for Newbie 1725, but I'll just temperarily suspect him for not responding to post 598. Meanwhile, keep up the marvelous flavour, innocentvillager. It really is good.

Sorry for being really silent today, I've got a large homework pile I would like to finish up so I could be more active tomorrow.

[RyanK]

...
I think my vote will be on RyanK this day as well. Looking at his patterns, it's clear that he lacks conviction with most of his votes because he's so wishy-washy wtih where he places them. The one post with conviction, the Cobalt hammer, was done so without taking into consideration the requests put forth by the IC (though I realize that RyanK had initially used a timer for a deadline of the hammer). It seems to me that he was also aware of me thinking the Cobalt case was blown out of proportion, as he reflects to his #581. I get the feeling he choose to play the vote-precautionary-safe townie whenever he can, and then not when it better suits the situation. It was the same for today as well. Hiplop got to L-1. Everyone here knows better than to quickhammer, and even then he pulls his vote off of hiplop. Can also be perceived as an unwilling to trust the general populace.
...

Yes, I've hardly got any conviction on anyone because anything someone does can always have a reason, we just have got to wait for the player to say what it is (unless the player has posted a lot no purpose, but doesn't defend himself). I had a conviction on PhantomCobalt because it seemed as though counting Rusty's vote doesn't at all make any sense, but even with such a strong scumread, PhantomCobalt flipped town! Don't blame me for hammering, it's not like you didn't contribute to Maverick1102's tunneling before saying the case is out of proportion, (post 457) in effect, adding on to my suspicion of PhantomCobalt.

[/b]

Also, couldn't hiplop have unvoted PhantomCobalt to prevent the hammer if he really wanted to delay the hammer? The fact that he didn't retract his hammer when he stated he would prefer no hammer already suggest otherwise.

[/b]

What's the problem of me unvoting hiplop to prevent a quickhammer?

...
2) In your #588, you mentioned that RyanK gave Phantom a chance to look town, and Phantom didn't take it. I'm disagree and am inclined to think that Phantom simply gave up. My reasoning for this is 0x40's #449:

So you're going to hammer me even though you think I'll flip town? The fuck

Yeah. A d1 40% scum lynch is pretty good in my opinion. Does anyone know what the average for d1 scum lynches here on MS is?

People were going to lynch him even if some/one of them thought there was a better chance of him flipping town. If I were going to be lynched for that same sort of reason, I'd just give up as well.
...

Your hypothesis that PhantomCobalt is correct, but your hypothesis that it was because 0x40's post is wrong. PhantomCobalt stated in post 453 that he's giving up and the reason was Maverick1102 was tunneling him. I thought it was a scum admitting defeat, and is part of the reason I placed an intent to hammer.

In my opinion, PhantomCobalt did try his best to look town after I stated an intent for hammering, it's just that, he didn't do it enough so the earlier things that seemed scummy because of Maverick1102's tunneling would be overlooked. It's not his fault thoug

For now, I'm waiting for innocentvillager's response to my question in post 598, hiplop's response to post 609, and Vaxkiller's response to my question above.

[RyanK]

Correction: I accidentally asked Vaxkiller for a response to my question, which I found to be invalid later and removed it, but I forgot to remove that last part.

[RyanK]

Letting yourself always get swayed by arguments is a bad way to play. If you have no conviction in your reads then scum can walk all over you.

Who do you think is scum?

hiplop and innocentvillager.

I'll take your advice, Maverick1102.

[RyanK]

Letting yourself always get swayed by arguments is a bad way to play. If you have no conviction in your reads then scum can walk all over you.

Who do you think is scum?

hiplop and innocentvillager.

I'll take your advice, Maverick1102.

On second thought, I'll learn it the hard way.

[RyanK]

I mean despite it's a better way to play as I wouldn't be persuaded by scum, what if the theories were from a scum? It's a recipe for disaster in that situation.

[RyanK]

My final thoughts on this is that there should be a balance between both.

[RyanK]

I mean despite it's a better way to play as I wouldn't be persuaded by scum, what if the theories were from a scum? It's a recipe for disaster in that situation.

BUT that's the THING about conviction. We don't know who is scum nor who is town, so we have to go with what we think is right given the reasonings that we have. You could be listening to the perfectly helpful person only to find out at the end of the game that you've been backstabbed by that same person who was actually scum (The Too Townie Fallacy). The only thing you know for sure is what alignment you are of. I understand the desire for balance, but without this conviction, not only are you going to walked over by scum but town as well.

You have mentioned that hiplop and IV are your scumspects. Of them, who do you think is the more scummiest, and why?

Hiplop as he lied about how often he's posting. Also, his post before the PhantomCobalt lynch seemed to be suggesting he would prefer a lynch. Thanks for helping out.

innocentvillager has only a very minor accusation, so it's less likely.

[RyanK]

...
If hiplop is more scummy to you than IV, then what was the point of jumping off as soon as hiplop got to L-1? Pressure is almost always a good thing, unless it's tunneling. Again I bring up conviction, which you just don't have any of, not even to your own thoughts (Please remember that hiplop is currently L-1 right now). Personally, I find a lack of conviction to be a sign of being scum. Because scum know exactly who is town, a scum might not know how a vote on someone might look like, so they might jump here and there and then maybe here again, which is what have done so far.
...

I didn't want to risk a mislynch.

Please explain why you think I've got no conviction on my thoughts.

I jump here and there because I would like to get a higher chance of finding a scum rather than staying on one person for long periods of time and focusing on one minor thing a player did even after he explains why he did so. It's a completely ineffective method to look for scum.

Hopefully I'll remember that hiplop is at L-1. Please help to remind me constantly in your posts if you could. I've got a horrible memory.

[RyanK]

I think that you have a lack of conviction because you think that hiplop is more scummy than IV, but despite that, as soon as hiplop got to L-1, you jumped off as fast as pretty much the next post happened, and decided to vote for IV instead, despite who you think is more scummy. Please remember that that your scum suspects list, of hiplop then IV, is yours and yours alone. If you aren't willing to follow your own list, then yeah, that looks like a lack of conviction to me.

'Risking a mislynch' is a moot reason because whenever the town votes, town is always risking a mislynch because town never has the full details. It's not even worth mentioning because that risk is always apparent.

It's also clear to me that you have a lack of any sort of trust of us. We are not Rusty, as in the player that Vedith replaced. We are smarter than trying to hammer without stating any intent to do so. But despite this apparent knowledge, you choose to not take the gamble of L-1 and jump ship instead. The majority of us are town. You are not trusting of a mostly town crowd. Could you possibly be scum refusing to trust town counterparts?

I admit I do have a difficulty trusting people, isn't the only reason I unvoted immediately after L-1 was achieved. I wasn't confident with my accusation, because hiplop hasn't responded yet. Now that hiplop has responded, I'm having increased conviction on hiplop right now, just hope it's not another PhantomCobalt case.

[RyanK]

...
My post is basically saying that Reso can't be scum if you're town, but can be scum if you're town. What's your view on it?

What were you trying to say?

[RyanK]

...
My post is basically saying that Reso can't be scum if you're town, but can be scum if you're town. What's your view on it?

What were you trying to say?

[RyanK]

I'd really like you to explain this.

Tomorrow.

Is it an in-game tomorrow or a real-time tomorrow?

[RyanK]

Where the hell is IV?

Stuck in a hellish RL duty/exam week?

Apologies, but I will be V/LA until Monday afternoon. I've been ignoring RL duties/exam week but I'll try to still post maybe once or twice at least.

The only odd thing is that he didn't go officially on V/LA.

[RyanK]

I suspected he would have put something.
...

Put what?

[RyanK]

Put what?

I don't know, anything by now.
The game is at stand still.

It is. Nothing to move on with, except for hiplop's case. Could he possibly be refaining from giving us answers on purpose? It would really keep the game in a standstill if he does so.

[RyanK]

I read the past posts earlier and have found nothing. Don't know about you guys, but maybe we should just revert back to random voting, but if something alignment indicative is found, post it, so that we could move on with another player instead of just hiplop (what I would call inefficient scum-hunting).

Still have got to thank God on this standstill though, if it wasn't for it, I may not be disciplined enough to stop playing this game and finish up my work.

Although a standstill may be good for me on that part, don't worry, with some guidance I should be able to refain myself (hopefully).

[RyanK]

Alright reso, don't you dare hammer hiplop until he explains himself.

[RyanK]

Before I do

Question to maverick.

Me clearing IV, what is my endgame there as scum? What do I gain from taking a target AWAY from a potential mislynch?

If you're a scum. you gain your partner's survival. (Answered on behalf of Maverick).

[RyanK]

Before I do

Question to maverick.

Me clearing IV, what is my endgame there as scum? What do I gain from taking a target AWAY from a potential mislynch?

Also, can't you explain your reads before Maverick answers.

[RyanK]

Sorry about that. I made a post that apparently got lost in the site outages.

I'm confused. Maybe hiplop has a gut read or something but to drop a statement like that is pretty ballsy without backing it up can only really come from scum. Can't see why he'd say anything like that when not even at L-1. Other than an investigative role which isn't something i'm thinking hiplop has given his play so far I can only see Scum!Hiplop. Pretty sure on that and I'd welcome an intent to hammer.

Wise to not dwell on this too much. I have a pretty strong reason, all I'm gonna say

What is the reason, and why is it wise not to dwell on the hypothesis?

y u maek promise and break? bro, totes not kewl.

I said game day. As in like Day 3

Nothing to say about this.

It really irks me that, when it comes down to it, a policy lynch for lack of attendance is going to be happening to the IC of all people. I feel like there won't be much gained from PL'ing hiplop, even if he turns out to be scum. As previously stated during RQS(?), I don't like a lack of attendance is a sign of scum, but just a sign of bad play. As such, because of a lack of interaction with others, even if he does turn out to be scum, what info would we get out it doing a hiplop PL?

This is not a good way to look at things. If I'm being wagonned for not being here much (which seems like it?) it is kinda faulty reasoning to me. My reads are transparent, its obvious what I think on the game.

Your reasonings aren't, placing an opaque wall in front of what you think of the game.

This is a lynch because he's holding information back from us even when he is at L1. Town HipLop knows better than that.

Town hiplop knows to not say anything that doesn't need to be said and town vedith should realize that. Cool? COOL.

Your lack of response to questions of your actions doesn't benefit the town at all, preventing us from understanding your actions, which is what a scum would want to do.

Town-aligned PR's would have no reason to with-hold information, or softclaim without being at L-1 which is what I caught onto. The fact that he's softing looks like Scum!Hiplop trying to lay down crumbs to offset his lynch and now that he has been called out on it is delaying the game and hoping attention shifts elsewhere.

Role fishing is somethign that only benefits scum. Don't make assumptions.

Maybe you mis-worded it. It's alignment fishing. He's just saying that it is illogical that if you're a town PR, you wouldn't make it so obvious you're one.

Also, how could you not make assumptions. We can't be sure whether someone is scum or not.

Town!hiplop wouldn't play like this. Only a scum mindset would seek to deprive us of information. Why he's silent I don't know but I don't particularly see it is changing my view. Nor do I see any other lynch target today given the day's events.

Scum have a bunch of question marks on their boxes. They don't know what is what, and I would strongly prefer we cut this talk. It doesn't benefit town in

any

way.

Are you claiming that you have a bunch of question marks in your box, which is why you remained silent looking for answers?

Ninja'd: Yeah basically PR hunting isn't anything Town!Hiplop would do, but the wording he used suggested he was softing an investigative role which simply isn't something Town!Hiplop would do. He'd want to avoid claiming if possible and at L-2 when it happened it was out of the blue and unneccessary.

Still not getting it, are you?

I am. He's saying that townreading innocentvillager for no reason seem to be claiming an investigative role, which is what any town in their right mind would never do. Why did you give yourself away as an investigative role, assuming you're town?

...
Hiplop is scum. Votes now thanks.

There are much more scum facts on hiplop than Cobalt, so most likely he's the man we're looking for. However, I think we should spend our leftover time on day 2 looking for the second scum, rather than ending the day with hiplop lynched, and the next scum unknown. So, don't hammer hiplop. Lynch him only 24 hours before the end of day 2. Don't place him at L-1 either. We don't want to risk a self-hammer to prevent the hunt for the second scum to take place.

[RyanK]

Sure, let's let him and his partner have time to queue up a mislynch or wriggle out of it...

That's something completely unlikely. PhantomCobalt wasn't even able to do so though he was a townie. Wouldn't being a scum makes it even difficult?

[RyanK]

...
No. What does SCUM!Me benefit from acting in this manner, derailing pressure on a lynch?

So, you are trying to derail pressure on a lynch?

[RyanK]

Only Scum!Hiplop could know IV's alignment and 'clear' him.

Maybe you should add three extra words to that sentence, which are," for no reason." If there is a reason, it should be fine.

[RyanK]

This is my full case against innocentvillager.

...
There were definitely multiple points in the thread where I would be thinking something and hiplop just came in and posted exact same thoughts. Like e.g. stuff on how Vaxkiller looked super gut scummy but he couldn't put a finger to it thing.
...

Since you agree with hiplop that Vaxkiller is scummy, please state why.

...
There is no scum motivation for doing what he's doing today.
...

How did you know that?

...
You all seem to be forgetting that hiplop is putting an inordinately small amount of effort into this game. Remember, in his RQS that I wrote, he said he tries a lot harder as scum. He doesn't give a fuck this game. His reads make sense, he is just commenting when he feels like it (very lazy-experienced town attitude for someone who prefers scum), and this crumb shit is totally unnecessary as scum and no scum motivation other than a terrible PR rolefish if it is one and I highly doubt hiplop is that terrible or trolly as scum to do that.

If you understand hiplop's reads, please explain each one of them. I don't understand why he reads Maverick1102, reso, innocentvillager as town and need some understanding.

...
Here is his complete statement:

5) (for those who have played before) What's your towngame like, and what's your scumgame like?
Hmmm... I try to shake things up. Especially once your meta becomes known being able to adapt both is super important. I think I've played too many games for their to a concrete answer to either of these? I tend to be rather aggressive as either alignment. I prefer the Mafia alignment, though, so I tend to put a little more effort in.

...

What is the purpose of taking hiplop's words out of context?

[RyanK]

I'm having difficulty understanding some terminology and couldn't locate them in the commonly used abbreviations. They are PR & AoE.

[RyanK]

I'm having difficulty understanding some terminology and couldn't locate them in the commonly used abbreviations. They are PR & AoE.

EBWOP: I'm having difficulty understanding some terminology and couldn't locate them in the commonly used abbreviations. They are RL & AoE.

[RyanK]

Thanks, reso.

[RyanK]

Spoiler: reso 738

You all seem to be forgetting that hiplop is putting an inordinately small amount of effort into this game. Remember, in his RQS that I wrote, he said he tries a lot harder as scum. He doesn't give a fuck this game. His reads make sense, he is just commenting when he feels like it (very lazy-experienced town attitude for someone who prefers scum), and this crumb shit is totally unnecessary as scum and no scum motivation other than a terrible PR rolefish if it is one and I highly doubt hiplop is that terrible or trolly as scum to do that.

Here is his complete statement:

5) (for those who have played before) What's your towngame like, and what's your scumgame like?
Hmmm... I try to shake things up. Especially once your meta becomes known being able to adapt both is super important. I think I've played too many games for their to a concrete answer to either of these? I tend to be rather aggressive as either alignment. I prefer the Mafia alignment, though, so I tend to put a little more effort in.

You're right in that he has stated that he 'tends to put a little more effort in' (you over-exaggerated it; why choose to over-exaggerate than simply tell it as it is? At the moment, I perceive this as an indirect AoE). But before that statement, he's also said he tends to be rather aggressive as either alignment. I would have loved to see this 'aggressive'-ness, but instead we get what you have described him as, 'very lazy-experienced'. I agree that he doesn't give a fuck about this game. He's being anti-game, and want him to get his act in order. I want to see his Beast-mode.

Hiplop definitely prefers the mafia alignment, and he said he would put more effort in.

Look at Newbie 1704, for example. He was V/LA many times during that game, but he still managed to post a LOT even while in that game.

His tone is also completely different. I don't see any lackadaisical-town vibes from it, hiplop always looked like he has some sort of agenda in that game. Here, honestly I see no agenda for hiplop, and that combined with the fact that he tries more/is better at/likes mafia-alignment, are all strong clues that he's town here. I suggest you all at least skim hiplop's ISO that game if you are voting for him and see if that changes your mind, I'll admit this is a bit less concrete than a lot of townreads.
...

He however may have changed his meta on purpose. It's too simple for him to change his meta. Or maybe he didn't...

I hereby declare that your argument is pretty much a WIFOM, and WIFOM arguments aren't to be trusted.

Also, he decided to lie that he was an aggressive player as either alignment. His play has been anything but that.

[RyanK]

EBWOP: Also, he decided to lie that he was known to be aggressive as either alignment, but his play has been anything but that.

[RyanK]

@IV - So to confirm, you are sayign that HipLop is town, correct?

Yeah.

There were definitely multiple points in the thread where I would be thinking something and hiplop just came in and posted exact same thoughts. Like e.g. stuff on how Vaxkiller looked super gut scummy but he couldn't put a finger to it thing.

There is no scum motivation for doing what he's doing today.

You all seem to be forgetting that hiplop is putting an inordinately small amount of effort into this game. Remember, in his RQS that I wrote, he said he tries a lot harder as scum. He doesn't give a fuck this game. His reads make sense, he is just commenting when he feels like it (very lazy-experienced town attitude for someone who prefers scum), and this crumb shit is totally unnecessary as scum and no scum motivation other than a terrible PR rolefish if it is one and I highly doubt hiplop is that terrible or trolly as scum to do that.

Yeah Vax is pinging my gut scumdar so hard.

I really thought innocent villager, but that seems WAY to obvious, but then maybe its just WIFOM.....

Like does this quote for one just not sound terrible and extremely forced

innocentvillager seems to be trying to remove suspicion on hiplop in the first post, and place suspicion on vaxkiller by stating and opinion in the second post, then AtE in the third post. A perfect combination to manupulate minds.

[RyanK]

I hereby declare that your argument is pretty much a WIFOM, and WIFOM arguments aren't to be trusted.

While on the subject of WIFOM, I'd like to point that Maverick's argument for Vax being town is based off of WIFOM (if anyone has forgotten).

As much as I don't want to indulge in WIFOM, I'd say that 0x40's death makes it less likely to Vax to be scum. I'm going to go ahead and remove him from my list of potential scum. I really don't know what to make of Ryan. It looks like overeager newbtown but at the same time I can't ignore the shift from him placing the hammer vote and voting me for causing a mislynch. It's very forced.

As are my own reasons for Vax and Maverick being town as well.

I personally find 0x40's death interesting. For the majority of Day 1, he spent the majority of the day tunneled on Vaxkiller, but at the very end, he played an untunneled game. Would his fate have been different if he had stayed tunneled on Vaxkiller? To me, this possibility makes Vaxkiller seem less likely to be scum, but not necessarily more likely to be town.

I've previously mentioned in my #585 that I don't think that Vaxkiller is scum. It's more or less the same reason as Maverick's #589. For the same sort of reason, just with a different set of people, I think Maverick isn't scum because I am still alive. The end of Day 1 ended with me being particular biased against Maverick, especially for this general Day 1 attitude against people that didn't think the way he did. I think it would be fair to say that if Cobalt flipped town, it would have easy to assume that I would continue to go after Maverick. I realize that both the Vaxkiller not-scum and the Maverick not-scum are WIFOM arguments, but I think arguing about the WIFOM nature of such arguments are a moot point, so I decide to go with one side of the argument and deal with the consequences afterwards.

My main point on WIFOM arguments are that they shouldn't be used as a base to determine if someone is a scum or town. If I accidentally used this method, please point it out to prevent biased conclusions from me.

[RyanK]

I wasn't singling you out for anything. I was just reminding people that such arguments vouching for the town-ness of people based off of WIFOM have sprung up before, and that we have more or less taken them for granted judging from the lack of response to said arguments. YOU GOOD MAN.

Sorry, thought you misunderstood my point of WIFOM arguments.

[RyanK]

For now, the only non-WIFOM arguments we have are of hiplop and innocentvillager. Please make your defense, hiplop and innocentvillager. You wouldn't want a hammer from me 24 hours before Day 2's deadline.