Newbie 1889: Ice Cream (Game Over)

[xwing]

Yay ice cream!

VOTE: Thor

Tom Holland

Spiderman is clearly superior.

your avatar pic is giving me the creeps.. :O

[xwing]

ego

VOTE: ThorVOTE:
UNVOTE:

aren't you supposed to be one of the best scumplayers on site??? Should we be afraid of the possibility of scum you?

was this ever counted as a real vote? then subsequently counted as an unvote? if it was, im not feeling this..

@thor: thanks for the explanations, just getting a bit of a feeling of defensiveness from your post about L-2..

i'm still new (2nd game) so im not sure what's the meta for L-1 so early into the game but i'll do it anyway..
i'm clearly sheeping reundo and RCE (for now, at least)

lean town: reundo, RCE, volxen (just from tone)
lean scum: ucvoyager, thor (explanations above)
null: all the rest

VOTE: thor
L-1

[xwing]

edit (messed the vote tags)
VOTE: thor

L-1

[xwing]

@notnova: im currently satisfied with where my vote is placed currently..my vote may be careless, but my logic is that we can see the reactions and interplay between 3 members i perceive to be "strongest"..subjective of course..thor (IC), reundo (i've played with him), RCE (i've read a game of his)..i'm not familiar with the others yet but im in no way saying the others are weak..just unfamiliar..

@thor: last night i read your L-2 beginning statement as [paraphrased] "before anyone questions me, here are the links as to why i did it.."..which on reread is wrong, so i apologize..that said, im still leaving my vote parked on you for the above logic (paragraph 1)..i would have placed it at ucvoyager because of his weird "vote" on you but i dont want to derail the current momentum..

lastly, i loathe rvs..as you said in your wiki, more info = better..so im satisfied with my vote right now..

[xwing]

ha! i discovered the power of q+ lol..

My short reply is I find it really funny how people are putting me to L-1 because of not liking me wanting people at L-2.
Also, as a bookeeping thing - anyone who wants to hammer me (cast the final vote to lynch me) should state hammer intent and request a claim from me. That will give me time to claim my role for people to assess, and also time for anyone who isn't confident in lynching me to state as such, prove they are wimps and unvote

i dont like this reaction at all..
first paragraph, i wont expound anymore, a lot of people have already addressed it..
second paragraph last sentences, too much bravado and name calling, it just sounds like a poor sport (for me anyway, in terms of tone)..also, you cant expect people to be confident in anyone's lynch this early in the game..but as the discussion goes on, it's making me paint you in a more negative light..

What do you like about each of their cases (I'm curious since neither actually made a case that I can spot)[/spoiler]

i'll answer this after you've posted your takes on the newer posts..do remind me to come back to this..

That said, the way xwing has hopped on the wagon to bring it to L-1 while providing fairly superficial reasoning for their reads strikes me as careless. I'd like you to clarify in more detail what exactly was defensive in Thor's post and why that makes him scummy.

i already responded to this in my earlier post, but got a follow up question..when you say "careless", does it imply you *think* i'm careless as town, or something else? what's your take on my stance and current vote on thor?

[xwing]

@notnova

Spoiler: my longest post so far ever

i understand what you're saying, but i dont feel i need to justify my vote based on what i already said..(which you disagree with, but that's fine)..

while what you said about play style differences is true (and i'll keep that in mind), the thing i really disliked is the comment on L-2..so far nobody here interpreted it that way thor did, which pinged me..i feel like i didnt need to expound as multiple people have already pointed that out..

and i dont believe (anymore) that meta proof is a good measure so i dont agree on you asking about it..but as i've said i havent played with anyone here except reundo..and i've read a game with RCE on it..

reundo and RCE going at it at thor is too blatant to be scum partners..so if anyone's scum, it might be one of them..but right now im leaning town on both..

i've already clearly told in my post my thinking behind the vote, and i even blatantly said im sheeping both reundo and RCE right now (at this stage anyway), and i dont think i was being discrete in putting thor at L-1..just note that one of the voter (scary clown) was an RVS vote, and some people havent posted yet..maybe i used the wrong word "sheeping" - i meant im voting for who they voted for right now, but i dont mean for the same reasoning they have, so apologies if i was unclear, i thought that was how the word was used..

you mentioned yourself that content is still sparse so im not sure what kind of proof you'd expect me to have against thor at this stage..seeing as he hasn't even responded yet..i dont understand the point of having conviction to lynch anyone at this stage as well, coz from my POV, anyone with that much conviction right now must be scum since they have some special knowledge..

lastly, you view it as carelessly adding fuel to the fire, and i see your point here..but my POV is fire will produce gold or ashes..

despite our differences, im leaning town on you for now..i sense the objectiveness and effort in trying to sort..in contrast i'm a slow starter..i need more content..so my way of contributing right now is to do stuff to make people generate more content..

[xwing]

i meant that if he's town, he'll be able to clear himself (purified as gold)..if not he'll dig himself deeper until he gets lynched..hope that analogy made sense..

[xwing]

what do you mean by him pulling someone else in?

[xwing]

Spoiler: response to thor

Lots of stuff all about me, I'm going to try to keep it succinct but the wall is as the wall does.

@thor: last night i read your L-2 beginning statement as [paraphrased] "before anyone questions me, here are the links as to why i did it.."..which on reread is wrong, so i apologize..

that said, im still leaving my vote parked on you for the above logic (paragraph 1)..i would have placed it at ucvoyager because of his weird "vote" on you but i dont want to derail the current momentum..

lastly, i loathe rvs..as you said in your wiki, more info = better..so im satisfied with my vote right now..

If you agree tht you're making up things/being wrong in how you're attacking me, why are you happy with your vote on me specifically?

answer was already there, bolding for emphasis..
i'm okay with you saying "im wrong" as opposed to you saying i'm "making things up"..both are technically correct, but coz of semantics they evoke different feelings/implications..like saying "you made it up" implies there's malicious intent, whereas saying "you're wrong" is just well, you being wrong..so i can understand where RCE is coming from..
notnova already dissected my reasoning in a previous post as well..
but never mind i'll repeat in a shortcut fashion:
i thought that placing my vote on you (biggest wagon) would generate content, and let the "strong" players show their alignments early..

What is bad about the tone exactly?
I'm actually being negative towards people who would unvote me - is that scummy somehow?

again, notnova has dissected this already and i agreed it was a play style difference..i should step back and start reading your posts rationally..it's just that words have different connotations, which scum can use to their advantage and choke up to play style..

What do you like about each of their cases (I'm curious since neither actually made a case that I can spot)

i'll answer this after you've posted your takes on the newer posts..do remind me to come back to this..

I am very good at reminding - consider this a reminder that I will want to see answered from the older posts.

[/quote]

the answer is nothing much, really..
during my first game, the players were scum reading me because i was playing "safe" and being overly cautious/paranoid..so here in my second game, i thought it would be a good idea to cast my vote on the biggest wagon (e.g. you), so that could be considered "sticking out"..
on hindsight, i think they meant/implied to "stick your head out for something you believe in"..and obviously it's hard to attack someone when i dont have genuine suspicion of you yet..so maybe i should have stuck with UCvoyager, but i didnt want to derail the momentum on you coz i was sure it would generate content (it did)..though im unsure if it was helpful to town (i didnt find it too helpful personally..i think the arguments are mainly play style/semantics)..

lastly, did i join a newbie game? im feeling overwhelmed, really..no one is striking me as new here per se (you're all like analytical robots lol)..and honestly feeling a bit embarrassed/reserved to post especially with my poor plays here (looking back, that vote was OMGUS gaaah..i think i should have probed more instead of casting a vote hastily)..i really dont expect i'd accomplish much, but at the very least i didnt want to hamper town..
of course, i'm not gonna roll over and give up..i will still continue posting and try to do my part.. so im more than ready for those who have further questions..

i didnt want to do this out of emotional response to being called a wimp, but rationally i think focusing on a different angle is more helpful, unless of course anyone thinks otherwise, and can continue with the discussion..

UNVOTE:

my gut is saying town is killing itself right now..i believe there's no scum in the wagon (not counting clown coz his was an RVS vote)..the silent players should come out now and say something..there's a high chance there's scum there who are content to just sit back and let us shred ourselves..silence is still a reaction..

@notnova im not appeasing you but you're still town for me, and your comment about me to shape up and play better [paraphrased] to make my alignment better known is appreciated..

Spoiler: not important

the atmosphere this game is heavy/intense..unlike my first game..just saying..

[xwing]

@thor: basically you scum read RCE because he voted reundo, whom RCE perceived has a strong town game..even if it was obviously a joke..did i get the gist right? you still think that action was scummier than me joining your wagon with no original reasoning at all?

why did you pick UCvoyager to be the one to join you in voting for RCE, and not someone else?

more importantly, how did you intend to strengthen your case against RCE by asking other people to vote for him?

[xwing]

@thor: basically you scum read RCE because he voted reundo, whom RCE perceived has a strong town game..even if it was obviously a joke..did i get the gist right? you still think that action was scummier than me joining your wagon with no original reasoning at all?

I indicated both actions as scummy, I'll also add that jokes don't make votes meaningless - all votes have meanings. Otherwise I'd just make a pun with every vote and be uncatchable as scum.
I have also indicated deeper actions by RCE that I find expressly objectionable (and just outlined in my last post to you, as well as a back and forth with RCE and Nova or Renudo earlier as well - I don't think I'm being coy with my reasoning, are you skimming my posts for some reason?

obviously i know you see both RCE and my action(s) as scummy, otherwise i wouldnt have used the word "scummier" right? i was simply asking after all the interactions you had with RCE vs my actions, you still find RCE the scummier one? i will take it the short answer as "yes", since your vote is still on him..yeah?

[xwing]

i feel like hitting my head to the wall when i interact with thor..lemme try something else..

@RCE and @notnova: IIRC you were the first ones to vocally express my action/vote scummy..i was expecting follow up questions or interactions at least to flesh me out..anything for me?

@notnova: i know you already questioned me, but i got no follow up after..does that mean you're satisfied with my answer? or pausing to see what comes out of the thor/rce/reundo exchange, or something else?

[xwing]

I'm still here. I will try to put together a post later today. I thought I could yesterday but I didn't.

okay..we'll expect to hear your thoughts later..
also please let me know what you were thinking with your vote unvote action (your initial post)..

[xwing]

I need to read through everything and get caught up.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: volxen

All the lurking going around has seriously hampered town's ability to sort. Other than asking a few simple questions at the beginning and arguing a bit of theory, you haven't done anything to push the gamestate further. Our two SEs at least ate their prods, whereas you seem to be aware of them if you post obvious prod dodges like these. I'm tired of all the promises people have made for more content, and at this point, I would be willing to call for a policy lynch.

You're lurking, plain as day. Lurking is anti-town - what's your excuse?

to be fair, these guys have posted less content that volxen:
StandingWind (none) - you there?
horrordude0215 (will post soon..said latest Wed..which is today..so we're expecting..)
UC Voyager (will post soon..expecting today..)

[xwing]

Do you find them scummier than Volxen?
If not - do you find Nova objectionable for attacking him?

And to answer your head into wall - you quoted me answering your question (and asking you a question you didn't answer) and then acted like I hadn't answered the question.
This concerns me.
Are you skimming the game or do you not understand all the words I'm using? Is there another possible explanation I'm missing?

1. no, but their lurking or inactivity is something im noting..
2. no, i dont find it objectionable..

the question i was asking simply required a yes or a no..i took your answer was "yes" (implying you answered the question), which i was confirming with you (to check if i got it right)..so was it right or not? [yes or no--dont add anything else thanks..]

sorry i missed your question, but yes, i am skimming your posts..

i dunno if it's your way with words or play style, but it's frustrating me to the point that i'd rather not interact with you unless you have something to ask or inquire (for town to read/assess)..

[xwing]

Eh you answered Why you were on the wagon and your process there. It's OK I guess. I'm interested though, what about Voyagers no vote struck you as scummy? Would you agree with Thor that it's scum playing poorly on town playing poorly?

I also find it interesting that no one has entertained a TvS possibility in the interactions between myself/Thor/Reundo with the exception of Thor.

dont laugh at my noob answer (at least not to my face lol)..
1. it caught my attention coz his vote was formatted wrongly, so the mod won't really count it as a real vote..
2. but he still put a name in there (thor) and unvoted..so he's "pushing" for him, but not really (unvote)..struck me as odd..

might just be nothing..

i dont agree nor disagree about not voting being good or bad per se..
i agree however that we should vote for whoever we think is scum..

im contemplating on a TvS possibility on your trio..but so far even if i dont get thor im leaning town on the 3 of you still..
but if i were to choose who i think is most scum among the trio, i'd think it's thor..coz of his way with words..he'll probably question and ask me to explain why but i'd rather ignore him..

[xwing]

@Xwing - how do you see ignoring my slot to help you win the game?

i'm not ignoring your slot per se, i'm ignoring you at the moment..there's plenty of back and forth with you and the others already and i believe there's even more content to come..

[xwing]

I’m up through post 94 so far.

Xwing, can you help me understand the trajectory of your gameplay so far? First in 27, you list both UC and Thor as “scum leans”, but then in the same post you also point out that you are sheeping Reundo and RC, which seems to suggest that you aren’t actually scumreading them for your own individual reasons and there really isn’t any confidence behind your reads. Then you vote for Thor in 27, but in 39 it sounds like you are almost starting to regret your vote on Thor – you said here, “im still leaving my vote parked on you for the above logic (paragraph 1)..

i would have placed it at ucvoyager

because of his weird "vote" on you but i dont want to derail the current momentum.. “. You then doubled down on this reasoning again in 90 when you said, “

so maybe i should have stuck with UCvoyager

, but i didnt want to derail the momentum on you coz i was sure it would generate content”. You then unvoted Thor in this post, but, interestingly, you didn’t change your vote to UC. It comes across like you really

want

to vote for UC, but you are helpless to do so.

So my question is, if UC is the person you are the most suspicious of (which your ISO seems to suggest that is the case), why did you feel obligated to leave your vote parked on Thor for so long? You mentioned twice that you feared momentum would be lost if you had switched your vote from Thor to UC, but why did you believe that to be the case? Much of the posts in this thread so far consist of the back-and-forth between Thor and RC. I really don’t think you changing your vote from Thor to UC would have changed that or lessened the early game momentum that was started from Thor’s wagon.

If UC is the person you are the most suspicious of, you should be putting pressure on him to see how he reacts. The logical thing to do is to vote him and see if you can get others to follow suit to intensify the pressure and see how UC reacts. You could also start questioning him (beyond just asking him about the unvote vote thing). Why haven’t you done any of this?

i believe i've already explained in my earlier posts and responses to the questions, but i'll repeat for you:
in my first game, town had a hard time reading my slot coz i played safe..so in this game i tried to stick out by voting on the wagon and putting thor at L-1..apparently as pointed out by most, that action was the opposite of what i wanted to do (e.g. it made me seem to hide behind majority instead of stick out coz i put him at L-1 like i was intending)..upon examination i admit that was a bad move on my part..at that time im not able to really defend my vote on thor coz i dont believe him to be scum, i just wanted to see how the interactions between the 3 "strongest" players were..it would be beneficial for town to sort out their alignments early..i thought it would derail momentum coz i put it at L-1, if you remove it then there's no real scare of being lynched (at that time, of course thor didnt know that, until he dissected me)..

obviously that time i thought it would derail the momentum if i removed the L-1 vote there..what i thought vs what you thought wont always be the same as we're different individuals..i removed my vote when i knew it was futile coz the pressure is already off after i told thor i essentially dont scum read him [paraphrased]..
yes we all know already that i had no confidence in that vote and i had no reasons for voting thor other than what i've said above..we already established that during my interaction with both thor and notnova (not sure which post but maybe you should finish reading everything first..)

what kind of pressure do you expect me to put on UC? have you read my rock solid case on him? (hmm maybe not yet but you will later..continue reading til the later pages).. i leaned scum on him on what..page 2..on why..his first post..do you think he will be pressured if i put my vote on him now? do you think others will be convinced and follow suit? honestly?
now it's more like im waiting for him to speak/address my question..when he comes back then i can engage with him more..

[xwing]

@volxen: let's engage some more after you finish reading everything, i've got a follow up for you..as i'm sure you have for me..
putting this here so i'll remember..

[xwing]

im contemplating on a TvS possibility on your trio..but so far even if i dont get thor im leaning town on the 3 of you still..
but if i were to choose who i think is most scum among the trio, i'd think it's thor..coz of his way with words..he'll probably question and ask me to explain why but i'd rather ignore him.

I'm actually inclined to believe Thor is town with his fingers in his ears. I think Reundo had the most to gain an scum on our three way situation by defending me but we are on similar pages.

What I was getting at was that no one outside of the three is really framing it as at least one scum on the mix. It points towards those that haven't given their thoughts on the matter since scum is more inclined to point things like that out.

among you 3, i lean town strongest on reundo..the one that resonated with me the most was his thought on "natural reaction to something scummy"..yeah we could argue about what is "natural" bla bla bla but i dont want to get into that with thor..

my worry is the 3 of you arguing on some other stuff like semantics and such might be unhelpful for town as it's mostly(?) NAI..but so far none of the others (may be including me) are generating much content to read anyway so there's that..

another angle im thinking is either he explains himself in a way that's frustrating to whoever the questioner was so they'd just drop it..like what you and i did..(or at least what i did)..
im still thinking it's a play style thing, but im not discounting anything at this point..

lastly and most importantly, can you re-phrase/expound your last paragraph? im not sure i get it..

[xwing]

@RCE: thanks, i get your point..

@thor: it keeps me motivated to play the game..
how exactly were you convinced of RCE's towniness?
why is UC scum for you?

[xwing]

oh, im still reading everything..i want to help town so i focused on not interacting with you if i can so i wont get demotivated..but it wont be at the expense of town..me replying to you means im still reading what you're posting..i even raised questions directed at you..

im not voting for UC yet, since horror and standing (to be replaced) are in the same boat as him..i was expecting to hear from them yesterday but we got nil..im thinking they might get replaced and it wouldn't be nice to come into a game with piles of votes on them already..

i disagree on your take on reundo..for me it's more to me like he's standing his ground on what he believes, and until he's satisfied that the main crux of his argument with you is resolved..
scum wouldn't be tunneling this much, so im actually leaning pretty much town on him..

i more or less agree on your take on RCE that he's got no plan or agenda, but im sensing the same from reundo..i think RCE did understand/agree on some of the merits of your argument, but i would think it was also out of exasperation that he just dropped the thing (RCE, please correct me if im wrong)..

besides the reason you already stated, is there honestly ANY other reason for you choosing UC over the other two inactives?

[xwing]

hmmm..re UC, fair enough..

on reundo: everyone has some sort of plan so to say that they got "no" plan is actually wrong..i meant more like he doesnt seem to have a scum agenda..what does scum!reundo gain from tunneling on you? if you were to sort him now, where does he lean?

[xwing]

I did see your initial explanation about what happened in your previous game, I just don't think it was a good reason for you to vote for Thor just because other people did, especially when it sounded like you really wanted to pressure UC rather than Thor. By "pressure" I mean that you could have started by voting for UC to get his attention, and then start asking him questions, which could have led to a back-and-forth dialogue between the two of you. This in-turn could have helped you to either solidify your initial scumread of him, or perhaps it would have convinced you that your initial read of him was wrong. But you instead voted for Thor just because other people were doing it and didn't put any pressure on the player that you said you wanted to pressure in two different posts (UC). That is what I find suspicious in your gameplay.

Also, I want to clarify something. In this post you said, "upon examination i admit that was a bad move on my part..at that time im not able to really defend my vote on thor coz

i dont believe him to be scum

, i just wanted to see how the interactions between the 3 "strongest" players were". Are you saying that Thor was NEVER a scumread for you, or that he initially was a scumread for you but you changed your mind about him? Because in post 27 you listed UC and Thor as your two scumleans:

yes, the reasoning, game-wise, might not have been sound..but what did you think of my thought process and motivation behind it though? do you think of it as genuine/fake? town/scum motivated? easy/hard to follow?
also, do we need to vote someone to get their attention, before asking questions? or is this more on game meta? coz personally even if i get tons of votes i dont really feel pressured at all (maybe coz i havent experienced drawing scum so i dunno..) i believe just directly engaging/asking the person would merit the same reaction..and if you've got enough info based on content and interactions (or lack thereof), then you can build a case then vote for them..that way, town can see your thought process and reasoning and join your vote if they are convinced..

do you have any scum reads at the moment, volxen?

to address your last point: during my L-1 vote on thor, i didnt have anything on him (null), i just wanted to see how their 3 interactions would go..
as of this writing, im treating the trio as town, though if there's scum in that pool, i will still choose thor..i've explained why in my previous posts..

[xwing]

Hey everyone! I'm so sorry for being AWOL thus far - this weekend took a bit more out of me than I expected. As an SE, that's not really an excuse as I'm partially here to help teach you the ins and outs of the game, and I should be able to maintain a much better level of activity going forward. I'm reading the thread right now and I'll have a post up hopefully within the hour!

hi horrordude, glad to see you posting some content..i've read it but i've ran out of time to comment..i'll try to do it tomorrow..
quick note, i've explained my thoughts on voting in my explanation to volxen..

[xwing]

@horror: even if im not convinced yet on vote usage, it's been noted by most people to be suspicious, so i concede that point for now and will be voting in this post..

[shockingly] i agree with thor that time's not enough..in my first game we adopted a mob lynch mentality on D1 simply coz we didnt have time to switch and ended up mislynching a townie who didnt defend himself well..i also agree that among the inactives, UC seems most suspect coz of the nature of his prodges..horror has already posted content, angel has just replaced (so the two others before really flaked)..

regarding my take on the inactives, i think we should be a bit wary in speculating their alignment, since in my first game, the two inactives were actually PR roles..whereas in reundo's, they were scum..all im saying is we can speculate but we shouldn't put too much importance on it..we wont know until they actively join the game..

VOTE: UCvoyager

[xwing]

Without going into too much detail, I've gotten a genuine feeling from reading xwing's last few posts, but there's a nagging suspicion in mind that it could be a scum-motivated attempt to gain town cred given all the criticism going their way, and I see a few others picked up on that as well. Given that Reundo thinks this is consistent with their meta, I'll find some time to skim through xwing's first game.

Also gonna try to reevaluate my old reads and bounce them off of people to see if they feel the same. I've been having a lot of second thoughts — the long walls are honestly kind of tiring to read on a whim, but there's a lot of good information there to dig through.

My first game link:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=77080

it's good that you still have that suspicion..
do bounce of your ideas, interesting to hear (errr read) what they are..

lastly, i do agree the long walls are quite tiring, but seems thor's personality is to get the last word in edgewise, while reundo's personality is attack until satisfied, so i dont think we'll see an end to this soon..

[xwing]

Hi, guys! I just replaced in, and I've never played on a forum before. I've played plenty of mafia and werewolf in real life, and I started a text-based real-time version of the game with a bunch of my friends, but this seems entirely different in the amount of time it takes and how much conversation happens (especially now when to me it seems like we have no solid information, only suspicions). Anyways, bear with me as I don't really know what I'm doing!

hi angel, welcome! hope to hear from you once you've finished reading up! (good luck on the walls of text lol)..

[xwing]

edit:

regarding my take on the inactives, i think we should be a bit wary in speculating their alignment, since in my first game, the two inactives were actually PR roles..whereas in reundo's, they were scum..all im saying is we can speculate but we shouldn't put too much importance on it..we wont know until they actively join the game..

sorry, my statement is technically correct..but i need to be clearer: we had a lot of replacements that game..
the VERY LAST slot who got replaced turned out to be scum..
the other replacements BEFORE that were town..

i think reundo and i might be talking about the same game..

[xwing]

Reundo has UC in his "three people who might be Thor's scumbuddy - even though I think it's the most obvious pure flaked slot because once that happened elsewhere"

i think you meant to say "Wind" instead of "UC" here..

[xwing]

I already described one theory - wherein scum Reundo would think it might look scummy to change course.
An easy second option is - by focusing consistently on me he is able to avoid giving other reads.
It can also be both of those together.
You see no possible scum motivation at all?

I'm still sorting him null for the most part because he isn't doing anything, but if we lynched him I'd be fine with that. People town reading him seem to be doing it for no reason other than that he agreed with them at one point.

just letting you know i read this and im keeping it in mind..
but i still dont feel that way about reundo..

also, your last sentence is not entirely accurate (though i liked that you used "seem")..in my earlier post 147 i town read reundo because i feel he thinks you're scum and is trying to engage you until he is satisfied with your answer(s)..(or maybe get exasperated which im betting on lol)..

[xwing]

fair enough, i'd understand the paranoia, but dont go overboard either..

you've brought up my "appeasement" of you multiple times for me to divert attention--do you think im doing the same thing with defending reundo (i've mentioned multiple times he's a strong town read for me as well)? do you think of it as unnatural/manipulative?

if you got any question for me, lemme know..

Spoiler: not game relevant

no need for apologies, no offense taken..carry on..you can conclude as the game progresses whether im friendly or just manipulating you

im feeling good about horror..though i noted that he used almost the same reasoning as mine regarding UC's early vote..not really AI, but just noted..

im sorting out volxen's slot, but it relies on him replying back to me..

hopefully we hear soon from angel and UC so i can give my thoughts about them as well..

@mod: i'm usually V/LA on weekends, but will try to post when i can..it's friday late afternoon in my part of the world right now so might be fri/sat for USA

[xwing]

im not fence sitting, im usually V/LA on weekends..i did a *very very quick* skim and just for the record, i'm okay with a volxen lynch..
i'll come back a little bit later with more detail..

[xwing]

good timing on the vote count mod..didnt want to vote until i saw the number of votes..

im not 100% sure of my gut feel on volxen yet, but the reason im okay to vote for him is because:

1. he made a townie entrance (at least for me) and that's good..but then..he was missing during the major events of the game, not commenting on the triumvirate at all..what did you think of that exchange? it's very hard to miss..
2. after making a reasonable entrance, his sudden absence pinged me as well..and im glad that reundo and notnova were pinged too..i intentionally did not call volxen out as he had questions for me so it would be normal for me to engage him without him putting up his walls and people were still generally suspicious of me..but reundo and notnova already called him out so that plan went down the drain lol..but that's still fine..
3. im wary of people saying "they will catch up" or "will come read at so and so time" but dont deliver..it feels like prodging/delaying tactic..you could at least post your thoughts regarding what have so far transpired, and you can post a follow up after you've caught up and change your views as necessary..
4. his questions to me feel like just a very weak attempt at scumhunting..almost all of the questions he asked me have already been asked by someone else and answered by me (clearly and in full, i might add, seeing that no one had follow up questions on my answers..)..i felt like there was nothing new in his questioning, or some other angle that he's looking at..
4. his questions to me are hypocritical..
a. he asked me why i put my vote on thor for so long, whereas his vote was on notnova for arguably the same amount of time..i didnt point this out immediately as i wanted to give him the chance to change his vote but he never did during the time we engaged each other..granted there were differences in circumstances, but notnova has produced a lot of content by that time already..does volxen still see notnova as scummy then?
b. he wanted me to put a vote on who i scum read, but his vote was just on notnova for RVS..i would assume i was his scumread since im the only one he was questioning, but his vote was never on me (IIRC)..in fact i dont recall him ever having a scum read at all..
c. he found it suspicious that i voted on thor for little or no reasoning [paraphrased], yet his reason for putting UC at L-1 is well, not really much at all too..i daresay my "sheeping" reason was even better than his vote reasoning for this instance..
5. putting L-1 in a big nice font is a nice touch..kinda like hiding in plain sight..which seems to be your modus..i might be wrong on this, but it just came off to me as such..

in my last game, the one to cast suspicion of me early and tried to pressure me turned out to be scum who was using me coz i was an easy mislynch (my entrance sucked harder this game though)..he only changed his mind about me when he saw other people were getting convinced i was town and he wouldnt be able to push for me easily anymore (im a slow starter)..scum actually thought i was jailer, hence the early night kill..

i understand and agree on the merits of the angel lynch, but i'd rather see how volxen reacts to the counter wagon, and give some time for ceejay..

we got a lot of inactives this game so im still worried that townies still might be killing off each other as we've got a limited lynch pool..

VOTE: volxen

i got a good feeling from horror's first serious posts, but im a bit worried i got it wrong since people are getting pinged (im not)..gotta see more from horror..

notnova and reundo are strong town..
RCE is probably town..
horror i'll put at town lean for now..need more content..
thor still seems townie to me, but i wont be surprised if he turns out to be scum..
ceej i'll put you at null first..i havent read much on you yet honestly..
angel null, but im willing to vote off based on "slot flaked twice" argument..
volxen - scum lean

[xwing]

Reundo and Thor is scumreading each other? Am I understanding this correctly?

reundo is scum reading thor flat out..
thor is null reading reundo to the best of my knowledge, though some of his statements indicate more of a scum lean..

[xwing]

Volxen pinged me in particular because most of his posts question or comment something on the thread but has no clear stance (is this scummy or towny?). I'm seeing this apparent lack of sorting as scummy. The others I can understand, they have at least some ideas for themselves on who they think is town.

I just don't understand why he would pressure a slot for content to hopefully sort it when he doesn't even sort more active posters.

I feel like he's mostly just fence-sitting.

okay, not much to read up on ceejay so that was quick lol..
first par: i personally wont put too much weight on this, coz of my first game experience, so i would give him the benefit of the doubt here..
second par (emphasis mine): now that is a statement i can agree more with and i feel has a greater weight for a volxen case..

im gonna put you town lean for now..please posts more on your thoughts once you've caught up..

PS: hi ceejay and welcome!!

[xwing]

Hi all!

Obligatory UNVOTE:

hi and welcome, sky! hope to hear from you after you've caught up!

[xwing]

we got a lot of inactives this game so im still worried that townies still might be killing off each other as we've got a limited lynch pool.

Why do you think we have a limited lynch pool?
What's limiting it?
I'm pretty sure we're still allowed to lynch anyone.

okay, to clear this up--town starts with very little info..the way we lynch people is based on content they have produced..so town would be more comfortable lynching an active player with scummy behaviour as they had more time to assess and be confident of their reads as compared to an inactive..so a wagon on an active has higher chances of moving compared to an inactive..that's why i feel it's pretty limited..im not talking about it in a literal sense..

what's your current read list, thor?

[xwing]

As far as Volxen goes, I think he latched onto his scumread and took that train into the tunnel and far as he could go. I did agree that it wasn't S/S but it could still be TvS. I didnt like his vote on UC that's my main issue with Volxen now since its the scumread on his scumread so of all the inactive to place a vote on, that's an odd one I can't really wrap my head around. If not for that vote I would say his fos on Nova is surface level OMGUS but an attempt to look outside of Xwing before he just odd back into his tunnel.

With that aside I read Volxen the way I did with myself during my first game and by chance the recipient of my tunnel just replaced in (hi Sky) in that he has it in his head that Xwing is scum and he is going to view much of Xwings actions as scummy regardless. For what it's worth it Volxen flips scum I don't believe Xwing or Thor are scum as a result. But I still don't want to lynch him. IDK a Town Volxen flip could point to anyone on the wagon at this point, I at the very least townlean his wagon but I also townlean Volxen. I will say much of my view on Xwing is due to Reundos points and not Xwings play in particular so that would probably be my first fos.

what do you think of my case on volxen?
who is more suspicious for you, angel or me? why?
what about my play after entrance is anti-town, or not town-like? (yeah let's forget about that stupid entrance..zzzzz..)

[xwing]

to be honest, i mostly skim on reundo vs thor walls..but i wanted to just put here what pinged me the post during my first read (i dont think i'll enjoy doing ISO reads for both thor and reundo..)

So, like here for example:

When it comes to "dodges" I don't need examples, I want em all.
I would think you would too...if I was fully convinced you were scumhunting me

context is, reundo is accusing thor of dodging questions..and gives one particular example..

thor's answer is as per above..

what do you guys think of this particular exchange?
everyone can answer except for reundo and thor..for obvious reasons..

[xwing]

i removed the parts pertaining to other people to let them respond on their own..

I think it is very likely that there is at least one member of the scumteam among {NotNova, xwing, Ceejay[UCvoyager], and Angel}.
Xwing – I’ve already talked about xwing as well. I do find his early game behavior of voting for Thor while listing UC as his prime scum suspect (and his reasoning for doing so) to be suspicious. And then in 233, he writes a lengthy post on why he is voting for me, but his reasons for voting me are basically the same exact reasons that NotNova listed for voting me: 1) he didn’t like the fact that I had a period of inactivity that was followed by my “I’m getting caught up” post in 101 and 2) he didn’t like that I questioned him about his voting for Thor. He then goes on to compare his vote for Thor to my original vote for NotNova, even though he knows that my original vote for NotNova was a non-serious RVS vote (because I didn’t have any serious scumreads at the time that I voted for NotNova, see: 17), whereas at the time he voted for Thor he had a scumread (UC) that he neglected to vote for.

in my case against you, there are similarities to volxen, but to call it the "basically the same exact reasons" is reaching quite a bit..notnova was pushing you for your inactivity [oversimplification], and i was pushing for some things other than that..i think my points are quite original..

i never said that i didnt like that you questioned me about my thor vote (the action)..what i didnt like were the questions themselves (the content)..that's because others have already asked similar questions and i've already answered them..

also, when comparing my vote compared to yours, i explicitly said in my case that they were of different circumstances, and i did acknowledge it was an RVS vote..so i dont think i was misrepresenting you there..
what i found hypocritical is you're asking me to vote and pressure my scum lean, but you basically did NOTHING out of all those you mentioned to me was "logical"..im putting in quotes below [emphasis mine]

So my question is, if UC is the person you are the most suspicious of (which your ISO seems to suggest that is the case), why did you feel obligated to leave your vote parked on Thor for so long?

You mentioned twice that you feared momentum would be lost if you had switched your vote from Thor to UC, but why did you believe that to be the case? Much of the posts in this thread so far consist of the back-and-forth between Thor and RC. I really don’t think you changing your vote from Thor to UC would have changed that or lessened the early game momentum that was started from Thor’s wagon.

If UC is the person you are the most suspicious of, you should be putting pressure on him to see how he reacts. The logical thing to do is to vote him and see if you can get others to follow suit to intensify the pressure and see how UC reacts. You could also start questioning him (beyond just asking him about the unvote vote thing). Why haven’t you done any of this?

i was your scum lean but you never voted for me..and i didnt feel any pressure from your questions because i've already answered them..if you had a different angle or something i would have considered you were truly pressuring/scum hunting me..but it didnt appear that way to me..

it's also hypocritical to me coz you expect me to have done the above [bolded], but you never did so yourself..

He also keeps justifying his behavior in this game based on what happened in a previous game: 1) first he uses it to justify his voting for Thor (“I want to stand out unlike my last game”), and 2) second he uses it in part to justify voting for me (“in my last game one of the people that attacked me turned out to be scum”). Overall that’s just faulty reasoning as this is a completely different game with different people and different circumstances.

this is quite the misrep/reaching again..i neatly outlined my case for you in bullets and numbering..you can see that i DID NOT include this point as my case against you, i was replying to RCE on what transpired during my last game since he asked for it..i even used a line break to differentiate it from my case..you seem to be overly defensive about this..
also, people were asking my thought process regarding my entrance, and i had to include what happened during my first game so they could understand where i was coming from..did this seem like an excuse to you as opposed to a thought process?

it's interesting to note that you mentioned that it's "faulty reasoning" but you didnt say it's "scummy reasoning"..are you equating them as the same?

do you have anything to say regarding reundo's accusations against you? you missed that part..

pedit: im glad volxen noticed this as well (my last statement)

[xwing]

sorry i messed up the tags but it's readable so i wont re-post..

[xwing]

I'm excited to play with Thor especially after reading his interview with ffery!

Spoiler: not much game related

what interview? thor is a celebrity here in mafia scum or something? can you post a link please?

[xwing]

what's your current read list, thor?

Who are you confused by my read on? I've clearly stated all my reads.
If I hadn't it's safe to presume null.

it's easier to track if it's in one post..lemme try if i got it right from memory:
town: notnova
town lean: rce
null: all the rest not mentioned by name here
null/scum: reundo
scum: ceejay

Did you intentionally cut out me answering his 'for example' question?

i cut off everything and left the part that pinged me..on rereading the entirety, im wrong again, you did answer..that explains why nobody responded to me..zzzzz..

[xwing]

I think your case loses steam after point 3 and after that doesn't make me go hmm yeah I can see scum doing that. I think Novas case is a little more grounded.

Volxens lack of transparent reads is very different from the last game I played with him but I got the feeling there was a reason for it.

Also I would lynch angel before you if that's what you're asking. Your play has been alright besides a few lines here and there that read very forced. Your early game, entrance aside was pinged out and I've noticed your shift away from that but that's not really alignment indicative, scum doesn't want to be scumread either.

awww..thanks for the honesty though im bummed i thought i had a good case..

im trying to keep an open mind with regards to volxen, but no one's come up with a good argument to change my mind on him yet..

what do you mean by "reads that are forced"? i see this come up but im unsure what this pertains to..

[xwing]

I want to keep Thor around, I wont be voting there today. Why are we even discussing his reputation in a newbie game, it's irrelevant.

RCEnigma, run down on why you're voting for my slot?

...

Hi everybody, it's been about 3-4 years since I last played, so bare with me and I'm sure we can sort everything out.

first, hi and welcome haylen..

thor's reputation is irrelevant, true..and so is him being IC..i didnt even know him until sky mentioned he was excited to play with thor coz of an interview, and i asked for the link for reading purposes..
why do you want to "keep him around"?

since RCE has asked to be replaced, i'll try to answer for him:
1. if asked to choose between a volxen and angel/haylen wagon, he'd choose your slot coz he thinks volxen is town
2. your slot has been one of the inactive/lurker slots
3. there are certain slots that he will defend to the death, and unfortunately your slot's not one of them

i'll let the others answer for themselves..

if i missed anything on the RCE question, please chime in..

[xwing]

Because the one person I am 100% certain of being town is myself. My win condition requires all scum to be lynched, and I know for a fact that I am not scum, so me being mislynched does not help me meet my win condition. So don't I have an obligation to defend myself to the best of my abilities, as opposed to sitting back and just accepting my mislynch? I'm not really sure what point you are trying to drive home here.

what do you think of RCE's question on 286?

[xwing]

1) xwing is voting me
1a) by just sheeping NotNova (which I could see, but they brought at least a few of their own points, IMO)
2) they're using their only game as a reference point, which is faulty (and therefore scummy (?)

i see this "sheeping" word again..

anyway, thought process..
if i suck at finding scum, at least sticking to my strongest town reads would still benefit town in general..unless im following the wrong person/s (woe is me..)..of course im not following blindly (that's why im voting volxen instead of thor/angel and got some of my own points against the case)..

if town is all suspicious of each other, it benefits scum mostly (a certain amount of paranoia is understandable given the info we have, but we cant do PoE if we just suspect everyone)..

does sheeping mean following the people you think are strongest town? for the record, that's reundo and notnova for me..and no, i am not appeasing you both..i think i've been consistent with who my strongest town reads are..

i have my doubts on volxen's alignment but it seems to be the one that makes the most sense to me right now and we're running out of time..im doubting it a bit coz of RCE's (my town lean) firm stand on volxen..he may be wrong, he may be right, i dunno..i just gave it some weight as RCE has played with him..if anyone's got a better case than volxen's they should voice it now..as long as we dont no-lynch i believe town is still in a better position the next day..

[xwing]

@xwing, who all is in your lynch pool?

that would be you, then angel (mostly for the twice flaked, which i admit is quite weak)..
im gonna look at ceej and sky more as well (in that order)..
any reason you asked?

[xwing]

@thor: what's your case against ceejay?
i mean you had reasons for UC, but he's since been replaced..do you have anything against ceej that you could share with us?

pedit: @volxen: okay..i gave out my read list just a few posts back so i thought it was clear but okay..

[xwing]

Only the stuff I already said in my posts you're not reading and then making me waste my time repeating myself because your time is apparently more important.

I called him scum for skimming while not admitting he was skimming.
Incidentally, even though you've kind of admitted to skipping and skimming - it's still poor and anti-town play.
Or scum play.

thanks and i deserved that honest and brutal statement..
and thanks for repeating the reason anyway..
but ceejay did admit to skimming as well? 213

[xwing]

@xwing: My opinion of you has improved a fair bit in the last while. My scum lean is due to me still having issues with some of your play which I would like to hash out on D2 and see where everything goes. I don't feel as confident about that as I used to, which is probably obvious going through my posts.

that's fine..feel free to hash out whenever you want..unsure why you want to wait for D2..the more people we can "clear", the more powerful PoE becomes..

people wont easily rally to me coz im lynchbaity and had stupid/weak plays that caused people to become wary of me..but someone universally town read like you will have more credibility..unfortunately someone like that is also a good NK target..so in short my advice is don't wait..if you cant deal with the inactive slots for obvious reasons, you can still deal with the active ones..

I'm feeling enough fatigue and seeing too much town-apathy to really find overly necessary to do double work today predicting every possibility of D1 and N1.

key word here is town-apathy..this is worrying for me coz we're allowing scum to very easily skate by while the rest are inactive or busy engaging with each other instead of focusing on finding scum (or town, for the matter, depends on play style)..

we seriously need more content besides the active posters..i really believe just posting whatever your thoughts/thought processes are would still help town..

[xwing]

To answer Nova the exact person doesn't matter much for Sky's read. Even as a newbie the implication is that the IC is a given game is more experienced than the rest of the playerlist ergo better at the game. Which makes them more likely to read scum challenging them.

From a newbie mindset of course. I only knew Reundo and Volxen coming into the game and I have no problem challenging the IC is either alignment.

i'd disagree on this, but RCE is not around so..

@sky
would it change your reads on both reundo and RCE, if you knew both of them were unfamiliar with thor/thor's reputation? or in other words, what other indications would point to reundo and RCE's alignment, if "challenging thor" is outside the picture?

i also didn't know thor's got that much experience, i just know he's the IC, but personally wont skew how i view his alignment..would it change your town read of me as well?

it's interesting that you found my vote on thor was townie when general consensus found it suspicious to some degree..

can i/we safely assume you've done reading?

[xwing]

I'd also rather vote Angel here. Not that Ceejay is the most active poster and I think his vote isnt based on the overall game. Not sure how far back he has read so it seems like a reach for the first thing that pinged him about his wagon.

This is true, I skimmed most of the game. I can get behind an Angel vote but I'd prefer Volxen's.

in what order did you skim the pages?
how much caught up are you/do you intend to read from the start?
what do you think of the other slots/players?

[xwing]

Ok I'm happy with my reads:

Town: Reundo, volxen, Thor
Townish: Haylen, Ceejay, xwing
Scum: Skygazer, NotNova

i would say im surprised with your scum read on notnova..i assume his post 86 defense about buddying did not satisfy you? im curious to see how nova will respond..he's on V/LA but should be coming back soon..
why is volxen a town read for you?
re your take on sky as scum, im less apprehensive..
re haylen, i still think i need more content/reactions from the slot, but im keeping your comment re angel's only post in mind..

[xwing]

Xwing - I want to keep Thor around because I want to see what happens on Night One. I'm also getting a bit of a town vibe from him.

I'm on the fence about my Reundo read. During my skim through yesterday, I had more of a scum read on them but doing a more detailed read today is making me doubt that.

CT - "NotNova is too inexperienced to play the way he is in this game, as scum." <- Never underestimate a newbie. Some people have an alignment they play better as. Are you convinced on your NotNova read?

I have a Town read on CT today. They're making solid attempts at analysing despite how difficult that can be on Day One. I don't feel the vote for somebody unlikely to be lynched is indicative of their alignment.

Ceejay, your last too posts are very defensive. Rather than just stating that volxens case is wrong, could you please explain your reasoning for those actions?

My eyes are falling asleep so I will finish this tomorrow.

i'll say i agree with you on your points re thor and CT, and disagree on reundo..
thanks for the catch up, excited to see your thoughts on the rest of the slots..

[xwing]

by xwing's own admission "sticking out early" was their conception of townplay at the time they did that, following post-game comments about passivity from their last game. If scum!xwing wants to look towny, they'd try to play it up in accordance with their belief. They went back on it pretty quickly when questioned, too.

My personal issue with the vote is that it wasn't introducing any new content or arguments — in essence they just jumped to the wagon following stated or implied suspicion by three different players at that point, which felt super easy and rubbed me the wrong the way.

Personally, I don't believe in voting "just for pressure" — when I voted volxen initially as basically a pressure-vote, I still tried to explain why I'm picking him and not anyone else, so my trajectory is easier to follow in my ISO.

His unvote was reasonable to be honest, it seems like an assessment of the gamestate I'd make. He never said that he was sticking out early to look town, he said he was trying to do stuff to be readable. If a player received feedback after a towngame that being passive makes them hard to read, wouldn't that encourage them to remain passive when they rolled scum to make themselves harder to read? Instead he did something because he

wanted

to be more readable, which doesn't feel like something scum would do.

the reason why im feeling apprehensive with sky is how she's defending me (e.g. me being a strong town read for her), and how she saw my L-1 vote on thor as townie..

reundo defended me at one point but i didnt get this "wary" feeling against him..
reundo has played with me before..but other than that im not sure exactly why or what's different with sky's..

anyway..hope to hear from both reundo and volxen soon..seems it's been quite a while..please please please dont replace out..

[xwing]

Because the one person I am 100% certain of being town is myself. My win condition requires all scum to be lynched, and I know for a fact that I am not scum, so me being mislynched does not help me meet my win condition. So don't I have an obligation to defend myself to the best of my abilities, as opposed to sitting back and just accepting my mislynch? I'm not really sure what point you are trying to drive home here.

going only by this post, i would say this as a townie mindset (this exactly would be how i would think if im getting seriously considered for lynch)..
however, i dont feel like you're using the "best of your abilities" right now..your actions and words dont jive..your counter-arguments against your wagon are weak, or it's as if you didn't get to the crux of the argument or dumbing it down (i cant say if it's intentional or not, but i think the case is straightforward)..
granted, you may have real life stuff preventing you from posting much..that's fine..but with the time you had to post, i dont feel like it was put to good use..

i've put weight on RCE's comments about you (he really didnt give much as reasoning, it's more of his firm stance on you that got me re-evaluating)..and will wait and see if CT's points for a town!volxen will convince me, but as of this writing im still convinced of your lynch..

[xwing]

@xwing: My opinion of you has improved a fair bit in the last while. My scum lean is due to me still having issues with some of your play which I would like to hash out on D2 and see where everything goes.

I'll second xwing in wondering why the delay on this hashing.

1) I don't think me reconsidering on xwing would change the outcome of D1 at this point.
2) A lot of my thought process on xwing is going to be dependent on how the day and night go.
3) If I do it right now, I'll probably be repeating most of what I said anyway - and I see a slim chance of that changing anyone's mind.

Like I've said, volxen is a lot more likely to be scum in my mind than xwing ATM. Do either of you see any pressing need to do that, other than the fact that I might get killed? If that's all, I frankly don't think I'll bring that much more to the table. I'm happy enough just expressing that I've lost confidence in that read as time went on.

I think that's all I have to address right now, I'll try to make at least one more post tomorrow. I'd really like to see the replacements try to settle in on a wagon by then - you might think a little over 2 days is plenty of time, but there's a lot of content for you guys to go over in that timeframe and I feel we might be in a timesqueeze if we don't get an intent reasonably ahead of time.

re your point 1, fair enough..but you can still use the time to sort my slot and be open to whatever it is that is nagging you (which we wouldnt know unless you tell us)..i think you've started with this with your conversation with sky..though i expected you would directly question me but i guess that's fine for now..

it would also help if you could elaborate on point number 2..
you've mentioned that you dont think volxen and i are both scum..
1. if volxen flips scum, you're clearing me (you got this covered, i'll look up the exact post if anyone asks)
2. if volxen flips town, what will your thoughts be?
assuming a volxen lynch D1, only those two scenarios are happening..you could still explain your thought process here..if you are NK'd then we'll never know what you were thinking..

for your point 3 - most if not all slots already have an opinion of me, but i feel the initial goal right now is to clear what your opinion of me is..i know you're not so convinced of your scum lean on me, but what exactly is bugging you that's stopping you from sorting me as town lean at least?
why im choosing you is not to appease you, but because until CT came in, you were universally being town read, and if i can convince you, we can have a stronger town block..my approach is more or less the same as sky..
im not directing this at reundo and thor coz they've town leaned me at the very least..and i think they are close to being universally town read as well..

of course, being universally town read does not equal to conf!town, so im open to CT or anyone else's challenge..what im trying to do is just bring together who we think are "more" town than others then just lynching the other slots..maybe not as effective as scumhunting, but by PoE we'll eventually get there..

[xwing]

Additionally this following quote (addressed at CJ in your 288) came after CJ had already admitted to skimming in his 213 and there's no mention of your concerns over CJ's skimming in your iso before this point as far as I can tell (granted I'm relying on memory and ctrl+f)

but ceejay did admit to skimming as well? 213

Two points.

1. Ceejay admitted to skimming on his catchup - not on his ongoing reading which I have now shown he is likely doing.
2. He apparently wasn't certain that Reundo was scumreading me - feel free to tell me how, even on a skim, that's an appropriate uncertainty.

Does any of that strike you as town without being really bad town?
So he's either scum or town who doesn't care about winning. Why are we against this lynch again? Because votes fled away from this wagon.

i'm not against his lynch, but i prefer volxen's right now..
but i do note that they're against each other as well..
what do you think of volxen's slot?

@xwing: My opinion of you has improved a fair bit in the last while. My scum lean is due to me still having issues with some of your play which I would like to hash out on D2 and see where everything goes.

I'll second xwing in wondering why the delay on this hashing.

this post feels good/townie to me..it shows me that
1. he's open to re-evaluating his town read on nova
2. it pinged him enough to second it (?) as scum, you would want town to provide as little content to each other as possible..
of course, he's good/experienced enough to fake this i assume..but still throwing it out there..

[xwing]

edited and reposting:
@thor

Two points.

1. Ceejay admitted to skimming on his catchup - not on his ongoing reading which I have now shown he is likely doing.
2. He apparently wasn't certain that Reundo was scumreading me - feel free to tell me how, even on a skim, that's an appropriate uncertainty.

Does any of that strike you as town without being really bad town?
So he's either scum or town who doesn't care about winning. Why are we against this lynch again? Because votes fled away from this wagon.

i'm not against his lynch, but i prefer volxen's right now..
but i do note that they're against each other as well..
what do you think of volxen's slot?

addendum: i know volxen's null for you, but care to share your thoughts as to why?

[xwing]

@reundo, @volxen
(the rest can say their opinion as well, but im mostly looking for these 2 since they're on the volxen wagon)

what do you think of volxen vs ceej? SvS? TvS? possible world of TvT?
i think there's scum in at least one of them..
i believe both cases against them are logical, though im leaning more on volxen as it's more solid/tangible for me than ceejay's..

im just not so confident because in my last game, the one we wanted to lynch didnt do a spectacular defense for himself but then ended up flipping town..so i want to hear your takes..

@the rest not on a wagon/not voting: please let us know where you are intending to place your votes very soon..deadline is looming..

[xwing]

yes, i meant you not volxen, sorry..

Spoiler: for volxen mostly

re prioritization: that's fine and i agree, but we've already done our part by being on the volxen wagon, probing, and asking others to check our cases..i think the burden lies on them to decide which wagon to vote, or to create a counter-wagon (not sure if there's enough time for this..personally im seeing either a volxen or ceej lynch inevitable..)..so while waiting on other's content, we still got time to sort other stuff..like other people's slots, for instance..

re main gripe: i think a natural reaction when people get suspected is to place suspicion back to the aggressor (e.g. think volxen vs ceej, nova vs volxen, me vs volxen, to wit a few)..it's just that im confident on my town read on both you and reundo so even if both of you accuse me, i'll stand my ground..and i try to be cordial in general (i was really quite upset/exasperated with thor to the point i didnt want to interact with him and even wanted to get replaced, but i accepted other's advice that it's a playstyle thing and i appreciate that he's not dumbing down his style to suit newbies and can see him being genuine about wanting people to get better at the game..you can see my earlier posts re thor, that was me being upset already..)

the reason why i call you and reundo town is coz i find both of your reasoning and thought process transparent and easy to follow/understand (one reason why im further scumreading volxen coz the case you presented was clear, i dunno why he's boiling it down to "inactivity" and "other slots were the same as me" argument..and volxen didnt even bother to respond to reundo)..more often than not, most people (or at the very least, in my case) wont need to ask for clarifications coz it's stated clearly..i dont get the feeling like you're hiding anything..

compare that to thor..yes he seems to be scumhunting and has a process of his own, but i dont quite get what he's thinking..like can you answer what does thor think of volxen beside volxen being his null read? compare that to what does RCE/CT think of volxen? reundo? me? that's why im wary of thor..i just choose not to focus on him yet as for me there are other scummier players..and so far that's my only gripe with thor..(and maaaaaan his style..putting the question back at you, word play, etc..it's messing up my heart/brain!!)

to be clear, i have you as strong town, but im open to reassessing you and i will vote you if you are the scummiest of the bunch..even if CT is a weaker town read for me, i still put weight on her words..it's just that i was not convinced yet..

if you want to be more privy to what i've thought scummy of you:
1. buddying to thor (i didnt get this ping, but if 2 people got pinged, i will take it into account, but wasn't enough to scum paint you in my mind)
2. lashing out at inactives (i didnt agree to this as well and didnt get pinged, i think it was real frustration born from town perspective--if someone's got a more solid case, i will read and assess)
PS: even though you're a strong town read, i didnt answer CT's case against you and wanted to see your reaction and see if there would be a slip somewhere..though in general i wont answer for other people..
3. decision to delay in hashing my slot (scum would not want town to have more info) - if you're town and think you will get the NK, or at least other town think you will get the NK, i thought it would make sense to say everything you have in mind as you wont get another chance, unless you're scum and you know you'll live to the next day)..mostly resolved as you're engaging me in what i feel is genuine..

so in a nutshell, im strong-reading you as town, but i havent lost my paranoia on you, it's just too insignificant compared to the others..that's why im perfectly fine if you have some paranoia over me as well..we can never really clear it until PR clear or flip but having a conversation about it is a start..

PS: im starting to worry if im being too wordy/clogging up the forum..i usually dedicate one post to reply to each player as it's easy to overlook a multi-quote with several different slots in it..please lemme know if i should ease up on the posting..

[xwing]

before i give my take on horror/sky, need help to clarify something:

I'm okay pushing this button and seeing what comes out. There are some interesting associatives with xwing that I want to explore as well, so I would be good with a wagon on either right now.

this is part of horror's catch up post and his line after voting for UC..
he was okay to wagon on "either"..but at this point of the game it was a thor and UC wagon, am i right? or was he referring to UC and me?

[xwing]

@CT, I don't know how that's super towny — it mostly just describes his playstyle and RVS approach.

It's the tone. He doesn't lack emotion and the sarcastic nature suggests non-caring town. I feel like scum try to stay likeable and under the radar rather than taking on the IC with sarcasm.

hmmm okay..im still not so convinced..
i wish volxen was actively posting now..he hasn't responded back to his other accusers except to ceej..it would be more convincing for me if he did those..

hope to hear more from haylen, sky and ceej as well..

pedit: CT, scum team of volxen/thor?

[xwing]

thor's list is here: 306

pedit:
1. i disliked it a lot that he "dumbed down" the case against him..
2. i understand where volxen is coming from on the other 2 lurkers/inactives, but nova explained exactly why he chose volxen, i dont understand why he keeps repeating the other inactives..
3. he's concern regarding notnova setting himself up as scummy seems townie..but when i read this the first time it didnt ping me that way..it felt more desperate for me..
4. i dont understand why he's scum reading nova but have a town lean on him as well in the same post..
5. that said being confident 100% on scumread is a very fallacious/hypocritical statement to make, as im sure that volxen is also not 100% sure about any of his scumreads (see number 4)..but i do believe volxen when he says he's willing to vote for them..

my mind is dancing between volxen and ceej..
re ceej, im getting convinced he's town mainly coz of your defense, and i feel like thor's main case against him is weaker compared to volxen's..

thor's slot i must admit i cant read at all..our styles are too different..i would read him town one day then scum another..i settled on town first so i could do better PoE but im not closed to a scum!thor..

i dont think volxen and ceej are both scum..if i had to choose, it would be volxen..but im not shutting down a bus yet..

[xwing]

okay first off, im happy you're posting..
next..have you read reundo and ceejay's exchange in 212? what do you think of ceejay's reasoning there? do you think it does not answer part of your argument?

can you rank your scum reads in order from most scummy to least scummy?
im assuming ceejay first, then?

[xwing]

Ceejay's "reasoning" in 212 for singling me out of all of the people on his wagon is illogical. He also said in that post that my "apparent lack of sorting" was scummy, but then I sorted everyone in the game in 284, which he never acknowledged in any of his subsequent posts. And it is quite ironic that he would even make that comment in the first place, as Ceejay himself has yet to sort the vast majority of the people in this game. Most of his content has been accusing me of being scum, voting for me, and expressing supposed frustration at "not understanding" me.

I would currently rank my scumreads from most scummy to least scummy as follows:

1. NotNova
2. Ceejay[UC]
3. Xwing
4. Haylen[Angel]

as pointed out by others, the sorting happened AFTER you've been called out for it..the reason why ceej didn't suspect the others in the wagon as much is because we've given our stand/views re other slots, and you havent at that time..so even if the reasoning for voting is the same, our situations are different..

your comment re ceej not sorting out others is noted..it's true to an extent that he gave out his reads on certain slots after being called out individually as well..that said, we might be more lenient with him coz he replaced in, whereas you've been here from the start..but im noting it..im also noting for some reason he's avoiding thor's comments on his slot..hmmm..

why did you vote UC instead of voting for me? why did you choose to put the UC slot to L-1 (inactive) and hope to "get their attention" instead of pressuring me (active, suspicious slot for you)? you didnt even place a single vote on me ever..and i was your top scum lean then..

you've had the habit of dumbing down the cases against you..is this intentional? it's making you look scummier..

I'd like to hear more from Haylen. It could very well be that scum are in the lurkers as most of the actives seem towny to me.

I'd like to hear more from haylen and sky. I've reason to suspect Thor is scum and I'm not so confident about Nova being scum anymore. If we have investigatives I'd like them focus on Nova/Thor. Ideally we lynch skygazer and he flips red and then we have some confirmed town tomorrow.

I'd really rather not lynch volxen or ceejay today and I guess those slots might be worth clearing too so they don't continue to get scumread incorrectly. We are coming pretty close to deadline so I'd like to know why people are unwilling to vote for skygazer?

what's your case on sky? i've asked everyone a follow up question re horror question as a possible follow up for my sky case, but no one's followed up on this so i get that no one is seriously considering a scum!horror/sky at this point?
im more willing to go with haylen than sky..

@sky
hope you're sober now, we need you to share your thoughts ASAP..a lot has happened overnight..

Also @Thor — can I ask you in advance for an IC-hat guide on Day 2 on how PRs should act? Thanks.

Woah Woah Woah. What the heck is this? Smells like a setup to a fake claim to me. No townie would hint so heavily bout being a power role on Day One with little so pressure.

As for my comments and lack of reads, as I said I haven't played in 3 years and I'm still finding my feet. I also have a distain for Day One. You're seeing me gather my thoughts. I'm just trying to keep things short and sweet because this game is already heavy on the text walls.

i dont think haylen should have called this out..besides, the way nova presented it was not subtle at all and doesnt look like a fallback for a false claim..
im giving the benefit of the doubt to haylen this time as they stated that they havent played in a long time..though im a tad unconvinced..i'd think that even 3 years before this wont be considered townie behaviour..

VOTE: Reundo

@haylen, @CT
a nova/reundo lynch is not happening now..choose some other slot..
CT, what's with the reundo vote?

The way things have been going, the day is going to end without a lynch...

this is bad..
@CT
aside from tone, what other posts from volxen pings you as townie?

pedit: whew i was typing long stuff why no-lynch is bad for town and urging you to reconsider..

pedit part 2: whoa crap..im not gonna finish what im typing lol stuff keeps happening..
UNVOTE: for now first..

[xwing]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: ceejayvinoya

Ceejay is at L-2.
I would be willing to lynch Haylen more, but for the sake of ensuring a lynch I'm going with this.

im more inclined for a haylen lynch..
i need to work, i can switch to ceejay to avoid no-lynch..
deadline is in 9-ish hours..

oversimplification (will explain if asked or when i have time later)

vs haylen
1. twice newbie flaked slot
2. PR gaffe (for me); pointing it to long years of not playing
3. lack of sorting proactively; pointing it to long years of not playing

vs ceej
1. not sorting proactively on some slots
2. skimming/apparent lack of desire to win (thor's point)

vs sky
1. i've given my thoughts on her buddying 347
>i can give some more depending on answers to this post: 371

all 3:
lacking content, need more, but haylen's is the most lacking for me out of the 3..
and compare them to CT's posts..

VOTE: haylen

@mod: V/LA weekends

@team: we're in an important junction so rest assured i will check in before deadline to change my vote to ceej if needed..

[xwing]

crap -_-"
im not good with time zones and dont know people's times..i hope majority comes back in before the deadline..
it's 10AM here my time right now..

does that mean we wont have time to see what ceej will say/claim??

i'd prefer a haylen lynch to ceej but i'd prefer ceej lynch over no-lynch at all..
UNVOTE:

VOTE: ceejay
that's L-1

[xwing]

great! we got one..
counting nova me reundo, that's 3..if there's at least 2 more on board the haylen wagon..
@CT, @volxen? thoughts?

i dont think volxen is false claiming..but this is mainly because i read people use "doctor" more..i dont have a good grasp of PR claiming mechanics..

RCE was hinting at volxen PR in post 276..i didnt point out earlier for obvious reasons..in the same post RCE stated he's okay with angel/haylen lynch..

putting back my intended vote, can switch back to ceej if we dont have enough bodies to avoid no-lynch..

UNVOTE:
VOTE: haylen

[xwing]

besides thor, who do you think is scum? what do you think of haylen's slot?
reundo thinks thor is scum, im on the fence (alternating between town and scum), nova thinks he's town, volxen IIRC thinks he's town as well..so we're pretty split..

counting reundo we have 5 actives..i hope this is an all-town block as the 4 of you are my townies and volxen just claimed JK..

PS: it's getting too exciting/intense/clutch..im not getting any work done gaaaah!!

[xwing]

yeah im gonna say reundo-nova-CT, and volxen (begrudgingly, assuming he's not fake claiming) will be the town block in my eyes right now..i would daresay CT as strong town..

by PoE that would leave haylen, ceej, thor and sky as my lynch pool, in order..but im willing to put sky in my town pool for stronger PoE..
so haylen/ceej, haylen/thor, ceej/thor (third team seems unlikely)..in order of scum team likelihood..

haylen first because of reasons above..
im conflicted with ceej, will reevaluate reundo's and CT's take as i would say if there's scum in volxen wagon, i would think it would be ceej..
im conflicted with thor, i cant read the guy..now i understand what people mean when they cant read someone..i initially thought it was a bluff..
i have town points for sky, but wary of her for the reasons i've stated..it would flip more or less depending on people's take of horror's statement which i highlighted..we can discuss later as it's not too pressing right now..

@CT: re haylen..valid thinking..it's either honest but bad town play or scum throwing shade for D2 start..i dunno..im getting paranoid that scum might have worked his/her way into my town block..but overall im still more or less confident of my town reads..

@volxen: are you at work? post during lunch time when you can, i'd like you to weigh in..

[xwing]

Scum now knows the setup, by the way, as we're definitely in row 2.

this feels like tmi

why?
nova's statement is factual..even i agree that mafia knows the setup now, assuming volxen is JK..
town, on the other hand..is sorta blind still..there might either be a doctor, a tracker, or no more PRs for us..

pedit @CT:
you're shaking me up lol..
i've been open to a scum!thor, but admit i've been biased about thinking of a scum!reundo and scum!nova..
could you elaborate more on your case on them?
reundo's progression on volxen seemed natural and clear to me..
nova's explanation on why he chose volxen also seemed clear and logical for me as well..

i disagree on SvS between reundo and thor..i think the exchange is too much to be SvS..possible perhaps but i dunno..i favor reundo in this exchange though..

[xwing]

Ok so that's all 4.

I think Reundo/Nova actually seem the most natural. Ceejay is tunneling, putting all your eggs in one basket is never a good idea and you're no newb either lol. Xwing you sadly look the worst to me. Your case on volxen before you voted is a classic scum tell of an over-justified read. You also waivered in your push waiting for others to reinforce or weaken the read for you. That looked like you were trying to stay under the radar by going along with popular opinion. You also ask a lot of strange questions about preflip associations which are useless preflip unless used by scum for positioning. Questions asked by town are usually to determine a player they are questionning's alignment but your questions weren't for sorting but looked like they were directing people's suspicion away from you onto others. This makes me sad because I find you enjoyable to play with.

out of the four, i'd say mine is most natural coz i know myself
seriously speaking, if i dont count myself, all of them seems natural to me..but if i'd choose, it would be ceej coz he seemed to have just skimmed at that point but started tunneling into volxen..the reason i think it might be natural is i think it's human nature to accuse your accuser..
i dont understand what you mean by over-justified read..
also, im not waiting for others to justify my read on volxen..i had my doubts even before reundo/volxen but i wanted to catch him slip..i have a better chance of catching him by just naturally conversing with him (seeing as to he was engaging me as well) as opposed to voting him right away..hence my post 140..
what kind of questioning do you mean? i dont follow..

i like playing with you too..and i hope you're town..i appreciate your contributions, but im getting a bit wary with you scrambling my town reads..on one hand it's good as it's giving a different perspective, but on the other hand it's making me second guess myself..

pedit: anyway @CT, @sky what's your case vs ceej..im having a headache..

[xwing]

Actually going back I think it's:

Haylen - notnova, reundo, volxen, ceejay L-1
Ceejay - Thor, CT

But uh don't quote me on it I am prone to mistakes.

yup that's wrong methinks..

haylen - reundo, xwing, notnova, [ceejay - L-1]
ceej - thor, volxen, CT, [sky - L-1]

[ceejay] - intend to vote on haylen, havent voted yet
[sky] - intend to vote on cj, havent voted yet
volxen - can swing either way (lol that sounded wrong but im not changing this )
nova/xwing/reundo - haylen priority but can switch to ceej to avoid no-lynch

someone double check if i got it right we dont want to accidentally hammer..or better yet..

@mod sorry to impose but would it be fine to have a vote count please to ensure accuracy?

btw, nova's timezone is night right now, so better lemme know your stands now so i can change my vote as he may be asleep already..i dont want a no-lynch happening..i can wait for 2.5 more hours before i leave my PC..anyway reundo/volxen said they'll be in before deadline so there's another buffer but i'd rather be sure before i leave as i fear i wont be able to access until waaaaay later..it's a Friday night..

[xwing]

see?? im thinking thor is townie again gaaaah..
i mostly avoided ceej due to reundo/CT, and that his reasoning vs volxen was spot on..
im not too sure if ceej read the whole game..coz i agree with thor that even on a skim reundo vs thor is quite clear (i mean i still got how they view each other even if i was avoiding/frustrated at thor those early times and just skimming their exchange..)

i've got almost nothing to go on with haylen..

@thor re slot replacement:
i think it swings both ways..
according to MS site rules first time players cant be in more than one game until they've completed at least one game..which can explain why they havent posted anything..
so they could have rolled scum, didnt want it, and are waiting for the game to finish so they could join a different one..
or they could really have just site flaked..
i dont really know..that's why i've admitted it's weak..
it just seems more likely to me that new players wont want to play as scum..
but to you it suggests that they may have flaked..
so it's a difference in perspective..

pedit: sky's vote puts CJ to L-1, dont mistakenly hammer..

[xwing]

sorry im gonna be selfish here and post intent to hammer CJ..
i might not be around later so i want to get as much info as i can before i leave..
i'll leave it to reundo/notnova to actually hammer if i cant get online in time before the deadline..
deadline is in less than 4 hours, i need to leave in 2 hours' time..

@ceej, intent to hammer..

[xwing]

reundo said he's gonna come in before deadline..
notnova might come in too..
i've got an hour before i leave office..
can we wait a bit more? at least see what cj claims?

[xwing]

mmmmmm..guys..i need guidance..
30 mins left before i leave..
both wagons are at L-1..i cant hammer haylen coz im on that wagon already..
i can still hammer ceej..

if we got a legit JK, only PR available is doctor and tracker..
if ceej is legit doctor, we got mafia RB, so the kill will still go through regardless if he protects volxen..
do we believe this claim..as it's the easiest (from site consensus) for mafia to claim?
note ceej didnt claim VT..

quick..reundo notnova wake up..CT? sky? volxen? thor?

do we believe this claim?
im leaning on NOT believing..
on the off-chance it's true..i will be responsible for hammering our doctor.. -_-"

[xwing]

unfortunately haylen doesnt seem to be active right now..

im leaving the office now..i trust reundo to be active soon and to be around just in case we choose to hammer ceej, but i'll stick around sometime by phone just in case..i'll be driving and will be rereading this an hour from now (depending on traffic)..

we got a little less than 2 hours before deadline..
sky is here and can hammer haylen so there's that relief..

pedit: huh..noted on the angel replace..wonder what thor thinks of our "twice replace theory" now..

@volxen: i dont know..im so torn..but one of them is getting lynched today..on one hand it's safer to go for haylen for today..
but otoh if ceej's doc claim is true, then we've got mafia RB, so ceej's role will be useless to protect you anyway..assuming ceej's claim is false, great..we got scum..i need to leave now guys, will come back sooner than later, i hope..

[xwing]

Okay.. I think we're safe from no lynch today.. I'm wondering on CT logic re the Haylen push he has right now but don't spill if it's gonna help scum.. I can wait.. Also seems we got enough actives right now to hammer so can I be spared from going online until later to do RL stuff? Am I still needed?

Pedit: Nvm that's the hammer from sky..

[xwing]

im here..but i think i need more time to keep re-reading and think this through (im at work)..

that said, im more or less convinced of volxen being JK..it's a hard role to choose to fake claim, and his content post reveal strike me as townie problem solving..

im still not so convinced of ceej being a doc, as i think it's still possible that we're in a different setup..and doc is an easy role to fake claim..if we're in a different setup there won't be any doc at all so there would be no cc..

re scum!sky, im considering it still..i'm convinced of volxen reasoning (e.g. it makes sense to me), but i need more time to think..having no NK still makes sense to make ceej claim believable..then setup mislynch on whoever was jailed..

also i've posted my thoughts/suspicions on sky already..would you think of this as soft bussing from scum!xwing? 409

re scum!nova, not convinced..but noted..need to re-read..
re scum!reundo, not convinced at all..
re thor, im blank..right now leaning townie to me..
re scum!CT, seems unlikely, but im wary..
did i miss anyone..

@thor re IC question: i think we definitely lacked time and should have gone for serious L-1/claim earlier during D1..cut a lot of reundo vs thor as well (no offense intended)..
when volxen claimed JK, we still had a wee bit of time to discuss, but when ceej claimed doc, we were really all out of options and had no choice but to go with haylen's lynch..and he/she couldn't even claim, much less defend himself/herself..it was too rushed for my taste..

[xwing]

Also, just as a theory question, does scum inactivity results in a NK? I'm not going to argue this is a viable scenario, it's simply out of curiosity.

if scum fails to submit a kill action to the mod before night ends, it will result in a no-kill (i think NK is mostly read as night kill, so i assume you meant no-kill here? or i got my abbrevs wrong..)

This probably isn't the most informative post, lots of info to wrap my head around so it's mostly questions.

same as mine..really need to think through stuff here..

[xwing]

if mafia RB blocked volxen, would volxen prison on sky still go through?
i mean would it be blocked, rendering JK action null?

if yes, would JK know if they were blocked? i think not, or else volxen would have mentioned it already, but asking to make sure..

[xwing]

okay i see..im still trying to run it in my head..but do you see where my question is coming from, volxen?

it doesn't make sense for me for scum to avoid killing one of the PRs..unless WIFOM..
if i were scum and know that both volxen and ceej are PR, i would RB volxen then kill ceej to ensure at least one PR is surely killed..next night volxen will surely be dead..
and i have still setup a mislynch on whoever got jailed the first night..

who would benefit most from no-kill? for me it's ceejay..

mafia RB blocks JK!volxen
volxen jails someone but fails coz of RB - someone becomes perfect setup for mislynch [sky]
mafia chooses no-kill
ceej looks golden as doc, can out real doc at the same time (if there is one)

but volxen's scenario A does make a lot of sense as well..assuming that mafia thinks there's a very slim chance the other scum wont be jailed..

if we extend volxen's scenario A and then think we're on column C instead of A, i will daresay both ceej/sky scum team..ceej avoiding to do the kill from fear of being jailed by volxen coz of suspicion..then volxen correctly jailing scum!sky preventing the kill..

if we're in column A, i think scum's best play would be killing doc..but WIFOM zzzzz..

i dunno what's the smart play to do here..
a. if we have tracker, we shouldn't have a doctor..should we ask tracker to claim? (yes for me)
b. if we have a real doctor, should they counter claim now? (yes for me)
c. should we flip ceej to confirm his role (not sure if this is the smartest play..the info we gain from flipping ceej is knowledge of the setup assuming he's not VT fake claiming as doc to avoid lynch, which would be very anti-town play anyway..i believe JK!volxen so if ceej flips doc, we're in A..if ceej flips scum, i will flip sky as well..means we're most likely in C)

that said, im not sure of the smartness of my letter c. thinking, but in the absence of any other PR claim or cc, im willing to put my head on the chopping block..

VOTE: ceejay

[xwing]

I'm getting the feeling scum no-killed to support the doc claim and to out the real doc whilst creating a mislynch today (the JK target).

idgi how could the jk be today's mislynch target? He's the JK.

ceej, CT meant the potential mislynch is whoever the JK chose to target (e.g. sky)..

[xwing]

i take back everything i said scum definitely must have no kill gambitted

Towny.

We could always set things up this way: lynch sky. If she flips town, lynch me tomorrow. If she flips scum, then yay.

i dont get the townie vibe from sky's post that CT mentioned..
@CT can you elaborate?

i feel like ceej's post is more townie..but i need more convincing..
also now i dont think my scum partners are viable (ceej/sky)..unless this is some kind of sacrificial bus to cement town!ceej..

[xwing]

it's SKYgazer, not STARgazer, though the mistype is understandable..
im still feeling apprehensive of ceejay..

i understand what reundo's saying regarding scum play is killing doc, as it's the same thing i brought up earlier..but i agree that sky lynch is a safer/better play for town..

im okay to vote for sky..what's the current vote count? my count is she's at L-1..can someone help verify please?

if sky flips RB/town, im going to vote to lynch ceej..
if sky flips goon, i dunno yet..depends on JK'd and results of the NK..

[xwing]

edit:
if sky flips goon/town, im eyeing to vote ceej as i dont believe his counterclaim yet..
if sky flips RB, i dunno who to vote yet..depends on results of the night (JK and NK)..

[xwing]

OK... Sky just self-hammered herself. The five people voting for Sky are: Volxen, NotNova, Ceejay, Reundo, and Sky.

If Sky flips scum, I will target

xwing

tonight. If Sky is scum, I still believe the scumteam is either Sky/xwing or Sky/NotNova, with the former being more likely than the latter.

you're wrong about me, but i'll wait and see what action scum will do..
if notnova is scum, i've been hoodwinked bad..but let's see..

[xwing]

hmmm i'd still think it's ceej, and my belief is we're in C2..
what were the chances that on D1 we would out both PRs..
scum!ceej knew you were likely to jail him so asked partner!sky to submit kill..
also explains why supposed doc!ceej still alive..
cuz if we're on A2, safer play will be to sure kill doc and block JK to ensure one PR kill..but WIFOM..
cuz your scenario A seems plausible as well..

if we're on A2, i really am not sure who to point out..
by gut alone my skin is breaking into hives with CT..just too towny..
but really though, the rest are town for me other than ceej really..sorry im not much help..i need to read ISOs but cant do that until later this evening..

[xwing]

hmmm i'd still think it's ceej, and my belief is we're in C2..
what were the chances that on D1 we would out both PRs..
scum!ceej knew you were likely to jail him so asked partner!sky to submit kill..
also explains why supposed doc!ceej still alive..
cuz if we're on A2, safer play will be to sure kill doc and block JK to ensure one PR kill..but WIFOM..
cuz your scenario A seems plausible as well..

if we're on A2, i really am not sure who to point out..
by gut alone my skin is breaking into hives with CT..just too towny..
but really though, the rest are town for me other than ceej really..sorry im not much help..i need to read ISOs but cant do that until later this evening..

So basically if Sky flips mafia goon you think her partner is Ceej, and if she flips mafia roleblocker you think her partner is CT?

half correct..
so if sky flips goon, my top partner is ceej..
if sky flips RB, im gonna go with thor by PoE..he's the one i cant read..

notnova, reundo and CT are strong town..
im just not sure why my gut is wrenching at CT but objectively i find her town..

noted on your thoughts re horror posts and "all-town" wagon..

[xwing]

hi thor..asking for enlightenment please..need to be sure i understand what you're saying..
volxen mentioned that he jailed me, but let's wait for confirmation from him..

if we're in setup A where we have mafia RB, jailing RB!xwing doesn't mean anything coz i can simply block volxen and still do a night kill..

if we're on setup C im virtually cleared, and i will lynch ceej..prob is we dont know which setup we are in..

do you guys think we're likely in setup A2 more than C2?
im starting to think we're in A2, and im starting to believe ceej claim coz of horror/sky votes..but the thought of being in C2 is still bugging me so bad..

horror did put UC/ceej to L-1, and sky put ceej to L-1 as well..could be a bus, but i felt the intent (at least from sky) to really lynch ceej was real..too much for a bus (but WIFOM??)..that's why im leaning on believing ceej..

im not sure who to think as scum now..leaning on CT/thor..
CT being one of sky's strong town reads (other one is reundo)..
thor being just unreadable for me..

im fine if town would want to flip me to gain info on my alignment and possible associations..but for the record im town..i will go with this only if we can ensure we can catch the last scum after my lynch by PoE..

how many times can town afford a mislynch at this stage, assuming nightly kills?

[xwing]

edit:
*volxen mentioned that

he jailed

he's going to jail me if sky flips scum

[xwing]

will lynching the claimed doc (ceej) be considered a viable play for town?

pros:
1. town will know the setup
2. on the 50% chance we're on C2, we would have lynched the most viable suspect

cons:
1. on the 50% chance we're on A2, we just lynched our doc and made JK worthless coz mafia's got RB
2. any other cons?

@thor: by unreadable i mean i cant decide whether you're town or not..right now i'm more inclined to believe you're town..

pedit: not sure on the notnova as well, he was one of volxen's top scum pairings..

[xwing]

"Very aggressively tossed out a vote"??? What, do you think all votes are aggressive or something?

No, I don't.
But you casting one while claiming confusion and a need to re-read/re-analyze seems strange.

I'd rather prioritize taking a stance than be ambiguous. Even if I were to do a 180 on sky, I'd still rather have it on record that at one point I did prefer to lynch sky than to indicate no leaning at all. I just prefer to try to make my thought process as open as possible.

im not used to reundo tunneling (granted this is only my second game, and second with him), which is why im having second thoughts..but as of this writing i really, really believe reundo is town..

i've done sky/horror and both of them put the ceej/UC slot to L-1..
but i'd say the circumstances are a lil bit diff..
when horror put UC to L-1, it didnt seem like UC was in danger of being lynched..coz it was mostly on the grounds of inactivity..
whereas when sky put ceej to L-1, it was deadly serious..i mean barring ceej claim we would have lynched him already..
also, horror was parroting my reasoning for UC lynch due to the way UC did his vote, whereas no other individuals found it scummy..so i think he was just finding any flimsy reason he could use to justify the UC push..

i'll iso the rest as well..

@thor: by unreadable i mean i cant decide whether you're town or not..right now i'm more inclined to believe you're town..

So by unreadable you meant 'no read'?
That's not what unreadable means.

whenever you're in a word-war with reundo, i tend to favor him and see you scummy..
but most of the time if you dont interact with him, your posts seem pro-town to me..
that's what i mean..hope that's clear..like i dont know what to think of your slot..what should i call that..null then?

i wanna absorb your exchange with CT so im not commenting on it much yet, but i find myself agreeing with CT to clear the air on the PRs and i do agree that ceej is more scummy than volxen..

[xwing]

Volxen should stop announcing who he's going to jail, and just say it afterward, since that way he is in less danger of dying until after I die.

downside is if he does that, we're not gonna know who gets cleared until the next day..
if volxen dies that night, we wont ever know who he JK'd..
if we got RB, is JK still more useful to us than just a regular VT?

RB can just always block volxen and continue to NK the rest then leave volxen and ceej in final 3..hmmmkay i think i understand what thor is saying..pretty viable..

lastly, there's 6 of us alive..should we consider a no-lynch today to force odd numbers? it would add one day for us right as opposed to mislynching today?

[xwing]

aaaaaand im still saying you're wrong about me..just as how you're wrong with notnova (my strong tr)..to be honest im annoyed that you're presenting a case against me based on player's playing experience rather than actual posts and gameplay..

i've already mentioned in post 556 what i thought would be the optimal play i'd expect scum to make..but just because something's optimal doesn't mean that scum would do it..

can you at least iso dive me and create a case where im being anti-town based on my posts? i mean you suspecting me via VCA was fine with me (even though i know you're wrong) coz it's analytical..

i dont get how you can

ABSOLUTELY

believe that you'd be dead if ceej is scum..i can think of at least 2 scenarios which makes a stronger case for scum!ceej with you being not dead.. -_-" (3 if i count thor's idea)

1. if we're in C2, scum!ceej wont be able to kill you at all or else his doc claim goes down the drain (since there's no doc in C2, hence no cc as well)..
2. if you got NK'd, then it would clear me..why would scum want to clear me when im being such a good lynchbait?

why would RB!xwing go to the trouble of mislynching doc!ceej when i can just outright kill him? being JK'd doesnt matter at all..
do you think mislynching a claimed doc is easier than NKing him? i mean thor is experienced as heck but has stated he still wouldn't lynch ceej even though he strongly suspects him! [paraphrased]

notnova was starting to change his outlook on me from scummy to townie..why would i kill a potential ally?? after all the effort i've done engaging notnova to convince him of me being townie, only just to kill him? -_-"

im just highlighting that you being ABSOLUTELY sure is too strong of a word and im not confident leaving this earth (being lynched) with you being this close-minded..

unless you're ABSOLUTELY sure we're in A2 as well??

can anyone comment re no lynch idea? is this an anti-town move right now?

@mod: weekends are coming on my side of the globe..i'll be on V/LA but will try to come online..

[xwing]

Phone posting.. If you think you can catch scum I'm fine to be lynched.. I'm town.. Will try to read later.. Unless I've been hammered already.. Ceej is still my top scum for now fwiw

[xwing]

But I have second thoughts on ceej as his post before sky lynch seemed townie for me.. So next on my list would be thor

[xwing]

I targeted

Skygazer

and put her in jail, as I have been strongly suspecting that the scum team is either NotNova/Skygazer or xwing/Skygazer after day 1 ended.

The fact that the nightkill didn’t go through makes me more convinced that she is scum. I think the following scenario is what played out:

The mafia roleblocker blocked CJ.

Skygazer attempted to kill me, but because I put her in jail, the kill didn’t go through.

Now if the scumteam wanted to, they could have guaranteed a night kill on CJ, because they could have roleblocked me (thus preventing me from jailing anyone) and just killed CJ. So I’m assuming I was the higher priority target for them, and since I didn’t list Skygazer as a scumread on day one, they figured the kill was not at too much risk of being stopped.

The only other plausible scenario to me is that CJ is scum rather than the doctor, but someone else is the doctor, and the real doctor protected me, and thus the scumteam didn’t know who to roleblock. So unless we are entertaining the possibility that Ceejay is actually VT but lied about being doctor to save himself, that pretty much means there is a 100% chance that either CJ is scum or Skygazer is scum, because these are the only two plausible scenarios that make sense for explaining why there was no nightkill. Currently, I’m inclined to believe that Ceejay is town and Skygazer is scum.

There were several things I looked at after day 1 to help me determine who I wanted to place in jail. To start with, I looked at the Thor wagon, Ceejay[UC] wagon, and Volxen wagon. All three of these wagons got up to L-1 status with four votes, and

I believe that each of these wagons had scum on them

. I didn’t focus on the Haylen wagon as much (though there was no doubt scum on the Haylen wagon), as that wagon formed in the very last hours on the day of the deadline, after both myself and CJ claimed power roles. And since {Volxen, CJ[UC], and Haylen} were presented as the only three lynch options, and Haylen himself apparently was not around to make a claim, it was pretty much a foregone conclusion that he would be lynched after both myself and CJ claimed power roles with the very limited amount of time we had left before deadline.

Here was the vote count when Thor was at L-1:

Votecount 1.2

Thor665 (4)

–

horrordude0215

,

Reundo

, RCEnigma,

xwing

NotNova (1) - volxen
RCEnigma (1) - Thor665
xwing (1) - NotNova

Not Voting (2) - StandingWind, UC Voyager

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is in (expired on 2018-09-18 02:50:39).

Here was the vote count when Ceejay was at L-1:

Votecount 1.7

ceejayvinoya (4)

- Thor665,

horrordude0215

,

xwing

, volxen
volxen (2) - NotNova, ceejayvinoya
angel7399 (1) - Reundo

Not Voting (2) - angel7399, RCEnigma

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is currently frozen at 1 day, 21 hours, 35 minutes until all replacements have been found.

And here was the vote count when Volxen was at L-1:

Votecount 1.9

volxen (4)

- NotNova, ceejayvinoya,

xwing

,

Reundo

ceejayvinoya (2) - Thor665, volxen
NotNova (1) - CheekyTeeky

Not Voting (2) - Haylen, Skygazer

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is in (expired on 2018-09-21 02:47:13).

In particular, it stuck out to me that all three of xwing, Sky[Horror], and Reundo were on more than one of these major day one wagons (which I emphasized in the vote counts). Most notably, xwing was on

ALL THREE

of these wagons. Sky[Horror] was on the Thor wagon and the CJ wagon. Reundo was on the Thor wagon and the Volxen wagon.

However, after reviewing his ISO a bit during night 1, I still believe that Reundo is likely town, despite him being on two of these wagons. So I focused more on xwing and Sky and their interactions. Though I still believe that NotNova could be scum with Sky.

One thing that’s interesting to note regarding xwing and Sky[Horror], is that they were both on the Thor and CJ wagons, and in both cases Sky[Horror]’s slot joined the wagon first. So if xwing and Sky[Horror] are scum together, this could be xwing sheeping his more experienced scum partner’s (Horror at the time) vote on both wagons. Vote-wise xwing was all over the place on day 1, and multiple people questioned his reasoning for being the L-1 voter on the Thor wagon in particular (“I want to stand out unlike my last game”).

Beyond their votes, I found some of the interactions between Sky[Horror]’s slot and xwing to be quite interesting.

I'm reading the game through right now and I'll be commenting on my thoughts as I go in a stream of consciousness dialogue style. I'm almost certainly going to be rehashing some things were already covered and explained, but as mafia is a game largely based on reactions, I believe in being as transparent as possible regarding what I'm thinking as I read the thread.

- UC's 16 really confuses me. The vote and unvote is purely semantic, and his entire intro to the game is "I want to vote for Thor because he scares me but I don't want to actually apply pressure to him right now."
- I like Thor's early push for an RVS wagon. While I personally am not great at RVS analysis, being able to get an early wagon on someone allows us to gauge the overall gamestate and test reactions, thereby allowing us to move out of RVS and into the game at hand.
- In the same breath, I dislike Thor's comment about claiming that you don't want to lynch someone on page 1 is in any way AI [alignment indicative]. Yes, you want to place a vote on the person you would like to be lynched

eventually

, but there's definitely nothing wrong with saying that you don't want to lynch someone right this second when the game is a few hours old. ***Slight interjection as I'm about halfway through the thread - this is one of the aforementioned "hashed to death" issues in this game and further discussion of it would likely be inconsequential at this point in the game, but that was my first thought when I read this post.***
- Volxen gets town points for 21

Reundo can confirm we are in fact, not scum partners.

This reads as potentially buddying to me.

- I'm really not a fan of xwing's 27. The reasoning for hopping on Thor's wagon seem very forced, even going so far as to admit it's a sheep of Reundo and RC's case.

- (Quick side note, I actually really appreciate that this game appears to be more content driven without the spamposting that is the meta on most other parts of the site.)

- 41 looks like xwing trying to drum up reasoning for being on the wagon after being called out for their initially weak vote. I also don't like that they admit they would be voting elsewhere except that they wanted to put Thor at L-1. I'm a fan of early wagons, but when you're on page 2 I feel that there's nothing you would get from an L-1 vote that you wouldn't get from L-2, so intentionally joining the wagon is suspicious to me.

Looking at the wagon again, unlike RCE, I think it lost momentum over time and don't see any particular reason to suspect him.

I disagree with this. The wagon was still at L-1 at this point with at least 3 slots (mine, UC, and the one currently being replaced) without a single serious post in the game. I don't know how you can properly judge the wagon with over 1/3 of the game inactive.

Your second point is semantics. Yes that is exactly what a conversation is, yes you are swaying player A's vote in both examples. That's manipulation if it pushes your agenda.

Pointing out here that town have an agenda as well - their agenda is to lynch scum. Scum is more likely to intentionally use misinformation to get town to mislynch, but that doesn't mean that a misguided townie can't do the same thing unintentionally. The best way to sort these actions is to sort

how

they're conversing, and you learn a lot more about those interactions after a flip.

- xwing's 90 feels genuine to me, as if they genuinely realize they made a mistake hopping on Thor's wagon without much explanation. Whether it's remorseful town or backtracking scum is to be determined.

- Initially thor/RC is reading as tvt.

what kind of pressure do you expect me to put on UC? have you read my rock solid case on him? (hmm maybe not yet but you will later..continue reading til the later pages).. i leaned scum on him on what..page 2..on why..his first post..do you think he will be pressured if i put my vote on him now? do you think others will be convinced and follow suit? honestly?
now it's more like im waiting for him to speak/address my question..when he comes back then i can engage with him more..

The thing is, it's honestly a pretty suspicious thing for you to not be voting for your strongest scumread at the moment. There's no such thing as a pressureless vote, and it's advantageous for town to use their vote with this knowledge in mind. Will you voting for UC cause people to suddenly drop everything and lolwagon him? Probably not. But your decision to pressure one of the inactive slots would at the very least be consistent with some of the reads you've posted so far, and it has the potential to get other players to look at the slot more in depth.

Frankly though, if you're town aren't you basically game throwing right now and being a jerk to all your fellow town team by not bothering to read posts to help catch a scum member or figure out a town member?

In xwing's defense, they have stated that this is their 2nd game on the site, and it's already far more in depth and requires a lot more attention than I would say is standard for a newbie game. Even I've had to resort to some skimming to help get through my readthrough - I don't think you necessarily have to read and absorb every word of a game to be able to play decently.

HEY YAY I'M CAUGHT UP ON THE THREAD.

I'm probably going to be doing some ISO reads and other things tomorrow to help me sort my thoughts on the game as a whole, but for right now

UNVOTE:
VOTE: UC Voyager

I'm okay pushing this button and seeing what comes out. There are some interesting associatives with xwing that I want to explore as well, so I would be good with a wagon on either right now.

Here Horror kind of goes back-and-forth on xwing, first criticizing xwing’s vote on Thor, but then he later defend’s xwing in the same post. He acts like he would be fine with either an xwing wagon or a UC wagon, but he votes for UC over xwing, claiming that there are some “interesting associatives” between UC and xwing that he wanted to explore. But at that point in time there had not been any back-and-forth conversation between xwing and UC. At that point in time the only thing that had happened between xwing and UC is that xwing asked UC about the broken vote tags in the post where he supposedly tried to vote for Thor (see: 16), which was followed by xwing listing UC as a scumread (whom xwing hadn’t voted for yet – see: 27 ). So Horror was incredibly vague about what “interesting associatives” he wanted to explore, and why voting for UC over xwing would better help him accomplish that goal. Especially considering he talked a lot more about xwing than UC in his post, and was arguably more critical of xwing (despite later defending him) than UC, but yet decided to vote for UC anyways.

And then here are several posts from Sky:

Page 2:

town pings from xwing for knowingly placing Thor at L-1 on page 2. Shows a lack of caution that doesn't come from newb-scum

Here Skygazer writes off xwing as town simply because he was the voter who brought Thor to L-1. I find that to be an incredibly poor reason to clear someone from being scum.

Skygazer made this post on 9/16/18 at 6:51 P.M. PST:

would lynch between CJ, Angel, and Volxen mostly on PoE

Volxen feels better to me than CJ and Angel.

Intent to hammer

after an Angel replacement is found unless the deadline is extended.

I find it interesting that she immediately arrived at the lynch pool of {CJ, Angel, Volxen}, which was the same exact lynch pool that both NotNova and xwing had. And like both of them, her initial preference was to lynch me specifically.

Then she made this post

one minute later

at 6:52 P.M. PST:

CJ wagon is not the worst due to early UC posts actually

So in one minute she went from wanting to hammer me, to now considering the CJ wagon. Quite a fast backpedal.

ill think it over,

im kind of unconcerned over who gets lynched

as long as its not one of my strong townreads

i may end up just sheeping whichever wagon has the majority of my townreads

This was several days before the deadline, but here it sounds like she isn’t interesting in sorting people on her own but instead just wants to follow her townreads. And she shows complete indifference to which of {Volxen, CJ, or Haylen} gets lynched, even though she knew all three of us couldn’t be scum.

I realize you probably don't stand by this too much, but I'd think someone as experienced as Thor wouldn't bother as much with being cautious as scum. That seems like something that would only really be AI if he was new as scum, or if he's naturally cautious when playing as scum as opposed to town, which I kind of doubt.

Thor's experience is precisely why I was examining the particular wording rather than the action itself. I wouldn't be surprised by him trying to lead an early wagon to L-2 as either alignment, so I'm not really townreading him for a lack of caution with that specific wagon attempt. It's just the particular way he used the word "me" (support me, oppose me, help me) struck me as something that would be odd for town to say. I also know from his interview that he tends to make early wagon pushes on Day 1 to help with forming reads and getting reactions, so the way he specifically mentions how the wagon being at L-2 will be more helpful to him lines up with my understanding of his town play. Granted, he's probably self-aware enough to be able to mimic his town-play really well, but this is exactly how I feel like town-Thor would play this out.

Sky, what do you think about volxen being one of the first players to engage with Thor during RVS? Do you feel the same applies to volxen that he'd be too cautious to engage with Thor and draw his attention as scum?

That's a good question. I don't think a post like this shows a particular lack of caution:

Thor, why do you want to put RC at L-2 so early in the game? Do you really believe that his vote for Reundo was serious rather than RVS?

It feels like a really obvious question to ask, and he doesn't back up this engagement with a vote. Even by his post 21 it feels like he's starting to form light stances (well, more implied stances from the questions he's asking) and ask the sort of questions that would normally be leading the town out of RVS but he still keeps his RVS vote. By the time Thor is at L-1, volx is the only player that questioned Thor about his comment about bringing RC to L-2 that hasn't voted for Thor yet. While wagoning a player to L-1 (Reundo, RCE, xwing) shows a distinct lack of caution that you'd see from newer scum players, not placing a vote on a player you've been questioning does show some sort of restraint/caution in my opinion.

Not enough for a full scumread, but volx's engagement with thor doesn't give me the same town pings that your vote, RCE's vote, and xwing's votes have.

She seems to be saying here that she isn’t full-blown scumreading me, but a few hours ago she was willing to place the hammer vote on me?

Scum now knows the setup, by the way, as we're definitely in row 2.

this feels like tmi

This was just… odd. Here NotNova was just stating a blatantly obvious fact: since I had just role claimed Jailkeeper, that meant we are in row 2 of the matrix. So unless she was doubting my role claim, then why suggest that this statement was “tmi”? If NotNova believed my role claim (which seems to be the case since he switched his vote), then it would be reasonable for him to point this out.

Scum now knows the setup, by the way, as we're definitely in row 2.

this feels like tmi

why?
nova's statement is factual..even i agree that mafia knows the setup now, assuming volxen is JK..
town, on the other hand..is sorta blind still..there might either be a doctor, a tracker, or no more PRs for us...

Nova's statement is correct if volx is the JK but the way the post is worded it feels like Nova

knows

that the claim is true.

Not doubting volxen at the moment but that doesn't mean someone who implies that the claim is 100% true doesn't have too much info

I think this is

incredibly

reachy. NotNova’s post does not come across like he has scum knowledge, which is what Sky seems to be implying here.

Another interesting thing about Sky is that she sorted every slot except for NotNova’s, which could potentially point to a NotNova/Sky pairing:

Here she lists Volxen, Ceejay, and Haylen as scumreads:

would lynch between CJ, Angel, and Volxen mostly on PoE

Volxen feels better to me than CJ and Angel.

Intent to hammer after an Angel replacement is found unless the deadline is extended.

And here she lists CT[RC], Reundo, xwing, and Thor as townreads:

I'm not exactly sure if xwing or Reundo have any clue of Thor's apparent reputation, considering Reundo at one point pretty much said he would never trust Thor's reads and xwing expressed surprised at his "celebrity" status, as he said. Not sure for RCE.

I'm not sure how the celebrity status thing changes much. He's still an IC. xwing putting him at L-1 on page 2 shows a distinct lack of caution that doesn't feel like it comes from scum regardless of Thor's celebrity status or IC status. Do you think I shouldn't be townreading those three, then?

Who are your strongest townreads, then? Could you give some more reasoning on them?

RCE/Reundo/xwing are strongest, Thor not as strong

because I'm assuming he's self-aware enough to be able to mimick his town thought processes but he can hopefully be sorted better through PoE later on (I'd still sheep the heck out of him for the info, though).

I've already given reasonings (lack of caution/meta). If more stuff comes up as I start to actually play I'll be sure to mention it but I've done my read through and that's what I got from it.

Although in fairness to NotNova, he did question Sky about the fact that she didn’t sort him:

I didn't mean the unvote when I was talking about "going back on it", I meant the general thought process behind voting Thor in the first place.

Considering there's a player in the game who played with xwing before, staying passive could in all likelihood earn them heat. If I have to pick between playing to perceived town-expectations as scum or continuing to do what you've been called out for, I pick the former as the likelier and overall smarter decision.
I can see your angle, but I don't think I agree.

I notice you haven't really mentioned me so far — do you have any read on me so far?

Do you give credemce to volxen's scumread on me? Have I been difficult to read or did something ping you wrong about my play?

At this point I am convinced that Sky is scum. And I know that there was scum on my wagon, and I don’t believe it is either Ceejay or Reundo. xwing/Sky seems like the most likely scumteam, but I haven’t ruled out the possibility of a NotNova/Sky scumteam yet either.

VOTE: Skygazer

by xwing's own admission "sticking out early" was their conception of townplay at the time they did that, following post-game comments about passivity from their last game. If scum!xwing wants to look towny, they'd try to play it up in accordance with their belief. They went back on it pretty quickly when questioned, too.

My personal issue with the vote is that it wasn't introducing any new content or arguments — in essence they just jumped to the wagon following stated or implied suspicion by three different players at that point, which felt super easy and rubbed me the wrong the way.

Personally, I don't believe in voting "just for pressure" — when I voted volxen initially as basically a pressure-vote, I still tried to explain why I'm picking him and not anyone else, so my trajectory is easier to follow in my ISO.

His unvote was reasonable to be honest, it seems like an assessment of the gamestate I'd make. He never said that he was sticking out early to look town, he said he was trying to do stuff to be readable. If a player received feedback after a towngame that being passive makes them hard to read, wouldn't that encourage them to remain passive when they rolled scum to make themselves harder to read? Instead he did something because he

wanted

to be more readable, which doesn't feel like something scum would do.

the reason why im feeling apprehensive with sky is how she's defending me (e.g. me being a strong town read for her), and how she saw my L-1 vote on thor as townie..

reundo defended me at one point but i didnt get this "wary" feeling against him..
reundo has played with me before..but other than that im not sure exactly why or what's different with sky's..

anyway..hope to hear from both reundo and volxen soon..seems it's been quite a while..please please please dont replace out..

i get the point re volxen's VCA analysis and all, but i would still say it's too close-minded to conf!town other players based on it alone..
otoh i think it's pro-town to lynch me so all your suspicions will be cleared and you can VCA me as well..otoh i feel it's always bad to lynch town but meh, if it can clear a slot should be fine..
i feel like no-lynch should be the play to force mafia to kill and make us odd-numbered, but i guess it's not such a good idea as no one is responding to it..
anyway volxen's plan would also proceed a bit like that anyway when he chooses to jail ceej the next day..but if ceej is doc, that means volxen's dying for sure unless maf does something different again..

for notnova kill, he's been eyeing me as scummy the whole time..i tried the whole game to get him to change his view of me..do remember i was trying hard to recruit him into my town block..only to then just kill her at D2..and not even try and kill the doctor when both PRs have been outed? i just dont get this play and i dunno how it makes sense from scum!me, but apparently it's working as town's on track for another mislynch..i'll only accept volxen's apologies if town wins but seriously though, i understand why im a better lynch than ceej..and i have to grudgingly agree it makes sense..im fine with the plan in general, but im just worried on the conf!town tunnel coming from volx might cost us the game..that's all..i agree that VCA can be a powerful tool, but it's not something that's 100%..if it does win us the game, i might change my mind re VCA..

honestly i cant really decide who would be my suspects between ceej, thor and CT..i've done my bit on reundo earlier and was doing CT's before i got sidetracked into defending myself lol..

im having the feeling that ceej might be a real doc coz of how he responded when he was about to be lynched as opposed to sky's lynch..and sky vs ceej interactions seem to be real intent rather than bussing..but we can clear that the next game day, so it should be fine..

i didnt feel good about CT claiming sky's response was townier than ceej's..i mean i like playing with CT and she's been objectively townie, it's just that my gut is wrenching with her for some reason..like she's too townie..i didnt get this vibe at all from my notnova strong townread..CT came out scum reading sky early on as well..i would consider this as more of a bus as compared to ceej vs sky..sky didnt even respond to CT IIRC..also RCE/CT was one of sky's strong town reads because of 270 which i dont really understand how it becomes townie or scummy..but i didnt suspect RCE's early game play so i carried it over to CT..

im biased vs thor really..so i dunno..he tunneled into RCE/ceej for the littlest of reasons, appears helpful with theory stuff, has a play style that exasperates some people..didnt feel like sky was buddying him but felt notnova was buddying him (i think the sky buddying was more blatantly done by sky than by notnova but dunno..)..i've read the link sky sent about thor's interview and i think it's well within his style to play as scum by working on the mindset of town thinking "oh mafia wont do that" then do exactly that..which throws out town's momentum..sky interactions with thor dont look good either..otoh he appears genuine to move out of RCE by using such strong wordplay and stuff but unfortunately lead to a war with reundo..
i dont dislike him as a person per se, i like how he's teaching with spoon feeding and stuff like that..

im not sure what scum equity i gained besides voting where i think i should be voting, and my thoughts have been pretty transparent if i say so myself..i admit it might not have been too helpful, but i thought i'd compensate by just spilling my guts out, so i dont agree with this statement very much..

if town is sure of my lynch, no offense taken for sure lemme know what else i can do to help..you can point out specific interactions or something to me and let you know what i think about it..if that helps..
i havent played as scum, but i'd think mislynching townies is very easy when townies cant form a strong block (which i was trying to do with notnova et.al. but ultimatly failed)..

and yeah dont take the good stuff i told about you as buddying, im being honest, tis all..no thoughts about volxen coz he's as good as conf!town so i dont feel the need to reread him..

[xwing]

Actually xwing can be town for today. You will all notice that I'm terrible at explaining my town reads so I'll only elaborate on my scum reads. Next player...

CT, i never asked coz there were more pressing matters that time..but what made you decide i was townie during this post? what changed to make me scummy now?

Also in Sky's second post, she arguably engages in pretty obvious buddying up to Thor:

Why would Sky buddy up to her own scumbuddy? That doesn't make sense.

sky also called CT, reundo and i strong town reads with kinda little reasoning as to why to get into our good graces..granted it's a little less extravagant than what she did with thor but point still stands that she was buddying to us..
with your reasoning that would make it unlikely for the 3 of us to be scum as well..as "it doesnt make sense to buddy up to your own scumbuddy"..
CT made a good post that sky was likely scum by trying to covertly put herself into the "town block"..
i like your reasoning for town!thor using the VCA better (e.g. if-scum!thor-VCA-weird angle)..not 100% sold but i think it's a better case..

also, i was the one who called thor as a "celebrity" when i was surprised he's got some interview stuff..sky only copied my wording based on my follow up question to her..of course it doesnt change the fact that she was indeed buddying but just giving context on the usage of the word..

lastly, note that me, CT and reundo called out sky on this buddying behaviour whereas thor ignored it totally..
remember that thor called out notnova for buddying thor..but sky's buddying was way more obvious compared to notnova's..so i dont see why this wasnt called out by thor whereas notnova got called out when buddying was arguably waaaaay more blatantly obvious coming from sky..

[xwing]

just read this again, and would like to dissect further..removed the other quote parts to make it less wall-ey..

... The way both Horror and Sky have treated your slot just comes off as highly... unnatural (e.g., Horror writing practically an entire essay about you but then voting for UC instead...

highly agree with this part..the reason why i didnt suspect horror though was because it felt like he was "teaching" me as an SE, which i find NAI..same as with what thor is doing with us sometimes with theory and rhetorics..
i duly noted that his reasoning against UC was weird because it seemed like he was parroting whatever i mentioned my gripe with UC was earlier..see my post here noting this: 180..why would i bring this to attention if we're partners?
i found it NAI at that time coz of course i didnt know he was scum, and because in his last sentence it felt like he was willing to vote for me as well, which i think is townie coz of my scummy entry..

Sky dismissing you as basically confirmed town because you were the L-1 voter on Thor's wagon, etc.).

i found it suspicious as well..even CT found it suspicious (at least initially)..and i asked sky about it..her answer satisfied me that time..again, why would scum!xwing bring this up..see post 313 and post 347

And you managed to literally be on all three of the major day 1 wagons (Thor, Ceejay[UC], Volxen)...

true..

...and you didn't really join any of these wagons for your own original reasons, but rather you kind of just went with the flow and joined whichever wagon was the most popular at the time (a point which NotNova also brought up, by the way). You were also on two different wagons with Horror (Thor's and Ceejay’s[UC’s]) – and in both cases you joined the wagon after Horror did.

false on the reasoning part and going with the flow..true on the rest..
my reason for joining thor was very, very unique..it's what made me look scummy in the first place.."sheeping RCE/reundo" was the surface level reasoning i initially gave, but if you dig deeper, i explained my unique reasoning on why i joined that wagon..
my reason for joining volxen wagon had similar points with notnova's, but i'd daresay i brought up my own unique points to the argument..notnova's was more in inactivity [oversimplification], mine included hypocrisy [oversimplification]..even notnova who scumspects me agreed that i "brought up a few points of my own" against you.. 287
my reason for voting UC/ceej the first time was pretty unique..i found his formatting and vote/unvote during the RVS vote scummy..the thing against me here is i only voted for him later than i should have..
my reason for voting ceej a second time was to avoid a no-lynch..if you re-read carefully i wanted to lynch haylen but upon notnova's suggestion, switched to ceejay near the end of the deadline to avoid no-lynching..see post 454..and im pretty sure you took note of this because of your post 485..

That being said, the nightkill of NotNova could be explained from either the perspective of scum!xwing or scum!Ceejay. From the perspective of scum!xwing, killing NotNova makes sense for several reasons. For one thing he was considered a fairly towny player, and importantly, on day 2 he flat-out said that he thought you were the most likely person to be Sky's scumbuddy in his final post 562 before being nightkilled...

i agree it does makes sense for scum!xwing to kill someone who is suspecting him..mostly volxen and notnova, and to an extent thor and CT..
soooo why would scum!xwing try so hard to get notnova to change his mind about him, only for scum!xwing to kill him? it would make sense to choose someone else who i havent swayed, like CT or thor, assuming doc!ceej is there to protect JK!volxen..notnova was clearly waivering in his belief of scum!me..he only stated me being scum again in in his parting words coz of IRL stuff..i think he just chose to stick to one person coz of his limited time and it made sense to choose me..im quite sad coz i wanted him to sort out whatever gripes he had with me so we can have a strong town block but meh..i dont hold it against him for sticking to his guns/gut in his parting shot..i hope you're still following this nova, we can discuss in the dead thread..
i didnt include the option of killing doc!ceej in this paragraph because of your point below..

Secondly,

scum!xwing did not have the option of killing me

, since I jailed you, and if you are scum that means Ceejay is doctor and thus protected me. So your choices were to kill Ceejay or one of the VT's (or no-kill, but that wouldn't make any sense). Why kill NotNova instead of Ceejay, who is a PR if you are scum? Because if you nightkilled Ceejay, then you would have to try and setup a brand new mislynch on day 3, which wouldn't necessarily be easy. If you are scum then you need two more mislynches to meet your win condition and based on the current state of the game, Ceejay is arguably by far the easiest player for you to secure a mislynch against. Ceejay has already taken a lot of heat, so scum!xwing could have rationalized the NotNova nightkill as follows: "on night 2 I will kill NotNova, because he is a strong town player and he strongly suspects me of being scum anyways, so I might as well deal with him now. Then on day 3 I will push for Ceejay's mislynch by making the argument that NotNova's nightkill is the work of scum!Ceejay, because scum!Ceejay would avoid nightkilling Volxen to strengthen his doctor claim. Then after taking out Ceejay on day 3, I will nightkill Volxen on night 3 and get ready for mylo on day 4". So by the time day 4 starts, you have taken out both PR's AND one of the strongest town players who had you as their number one suspect. I would say that's a lot of motivation for scum!xwing to nightkill NotNova.

this is a very good case against scum!xwing, and my only defense here is to say that you're wrong simply because i'm town..
my little gripe here is jailed RB!xwing will more prolly choose to NK CT coz she's too townie, coz i've just wasted a lot of effort on notnova to simply kill him..
my second gripe is it would have still been easier for me to NK ceej and setup a mislynch on someone else coz thor already stated earlier that doc claim from ceej catapults him to lylo..i wont have enough bodies to mislynch ceej..
if people would be convinced because of this argument though i wouldn't be surprised, it's a good train of thought..hope you apply this kind of thinking with all of the other players in the pool as well..like what you did with scum!ceej too; can you go over with a scum!CT as well? im just feeling something wrong with her slot and all..(no offense CT, i like you)..

Still, what is Ceejay’s endgame plan if he is scum? ........

which is kinda convincing me into thinking that ceej could really be doc..no cc whatsoever either means he's doc or goon..if he's goon he's surely caught after my lynch..so not a very good endgame plan..but let's see how it plays out..

we should use the remaining time to establish who among the two (between CT, reundo and thor) are town going into the final 3..

pedit: just saw volxen's post..this is good..really need to flesh out two townies (not including me, ceej and volxen)..

[xwing]

@ceej: what do you think of reundo, thor and CT? who among the 3 is likely scum?

pedit: @volxen: ask the same of thor on his case against reundo..go with both sides..and dont leave out CT just to be sure..i mean we both agree she's strong town but i wanna hear her thoughts as well..

[xwing]

@xwing, there's a difference between giving someone an "easy" townread versus outright buddying them. Yes, Sky gave you especially a very "easy" townread ("xwing is town because he put Thor at L-1"), and she was quick to give RC (CT's predecessor), Reundo, and Thor all townreads as well. But the only person that she actually buddied up to (quite blatantly) was Thor.

I literally do not see any scum motivation in anything Thor has done in this game up to this point. What is it I'm missing, @Reundo? What is Thor's mastermind scum agenda, and what

TANGIBLE

evidence (i.e., including

VOTES

) is there that establishes that Thor has done things that have directly advanced (or at least have attempted to advance) the scum win condition?

Why are you, @Reundo, more likely to be town than Thor?

if we're dead set on going on with your plan, i can stop defending myself and then let's just focus on fleshing out who's the real townies (barring you and ceej of course)..do remember to hammer me to avoid no-lynch or i can self-hammer if needed..im at L-1 right? scum will surely not lolhammer..

[xwing]

yeah i didnt like that CT flip flop, that's what got me all tangled up on her slot..she went guns ablazing on sky, then flip flopped at the end..it doesnt make sense for me..

im just worried both reundo and thor are town and CT ends up being RB..

do i have to claim and stuff, i think it's pretty obvious what im gonna claim though so what's the procedure here..

pedit: oh okay..hmmm i thought i was thor's choice for flip..but in that link he said it's reundo..must have recalled wrongly..eh..

[xwing]

Spoiler: not game related"

@Mod - I'mma do my bachelor party today. So I think I'm going to post tomorrow just fine, albeit maybe late, but then again maybe I won't, so little V/LA just in case

did we just miss this?? do you mean you're getting married or just attending someone's bachelor's party??

[xwing]

hmmm fine..i mostly town read CT anyway..just want to ensure we got our bases covered..

@ceejay:

still want to hear your take on CT, thor and reundo as i feel they are most likely to be in final 3..

@CT:

also want to hear your take on both reundo and thor..last i read i got the impression you're scum reading thor over reundo?

thor and reundo both got CT as town, so i dont think i need to get their takes on CT, unless that's changed..

i wanna read a different/fresh take..as volxen and i are most likely biased against our own picks..

im leaving off ceej's slot coz it's the only slot that volxen can confirm as town..im feeling ceej claim is most likely true at this point too..in the event it's a false claim, we got that covered anyway..

[xwing]

of course we all prefer that..but im saying that after my lynch, next step is volxen would be jailing ceej..
if ceej turns out to be town..gotta have to plan the next step..do we wait until then (there will be less people to discuss with) or would we prefer to do it earlier?
or are you saying you want to lynch ceej over me? coz i believe thor and volxen wont budge on that..and im not a good candidate to go to the finals..

[xwing]

i understand where you're coming from..im just kinda desperate to contribute anything coz i know im getting lynched and feel like i havent been helpful all game..
truth is i feel a bit lazy and resigned to my fate already..i feel like a talking ghost here lol..
but in the event that ceej is town, volxen is locktown on you and thor through VCA, and im just worried of that, so i wanted to gauge you and ceej's thoughts on the matter..so i can leave in peace lol..
anyway the game is supposed to be fun, so if it's too much work right now, i'm fine with that..provided that i'll take you for your word when we reach the finals or else..errrrrr..i'll talk bad about you in dead chat! haha i cant think of a legitimate threat lol

pedit: whoops for the record volxen pushed you, not me

[xwing]

vc

@mod: sorry to impose again but can we please have a vote count and deadline countdown to ensure we make the most of the time and vote before the deadline ends? thanks a lot!

[xwing]

if we extend volxen's scenario A and then think we're on column C instead of A, i will daresay both ceej/sky scum team..ceej avoiding to do the kill from fear of being jailed by volxen coz of suspicion..then volxen correctly jailing scum!sky preventing the kill..

first time to call scum team correctly yeeeey!! anyway sorry town i played really poorly especially at the start..what was i thinking..ugh..i dont think i could ever recover zzzzzz..

good job everyone twas a fun game! think i learned a lot here!
thanks mario for modding!!

@volxen: CT's gonna kill you for forcing her to do extra work hahaha! but i think correctly jailing sky when she targeted you was the best play of the game definitely!!!! (though i still dislike VCA logic and stubbornness to lynch ceej but i blame myself lol)..

@thor: sorry for my early attitude towards you..dunno but i really felt really annoyed/exasperated at your slot early on.. :-s
i had a lot of questions during the game, i should have listed it down! i'll just jot down some that i remember..if you would be so kind..

1. why were you so adamant of not lynching claimed doc until lylo for this specific game, given the very suspicious nature of it?
2. near the end of D1, we were having trouble deciding who to lynch but universally didn't want to no-lynch..as town who is holding the swing vote, what's the play to make?
3. how do you ask the "right" questions as town? conversely, what do you use as a guide to call someone town or not? i notice you dont give these out hastily/easily..

[xwing]

It was unfortunate for Ceejay really, he was stuck between a rock and a hard place. Sorry for replacing out but thumbs up Cheeky for really showing you were Townie.

Volxen was super strong post claim. I called it by the way, I could see how that first game influenced your play and halfway through Nova's case on you I was just like damn he rolled a pr AGAIN lol.

you called it out indeed..how did you figure it out??

[xwing]

I'm glad it played out this way, I would have felt bad mislynching poor xwing. Why did you have to do so many suspicious things, xwing! lol

i know right?!?!?! im baffled myself lol..how could a townie play so scummy lol..really in this newbie game i felt like i was the only real newbie here you guys were just awesome!!

i thought the way i played at the end even when i knew i was gonna lynched was pretty pro-town but i was still resigned to my death though coz i felt sure you werent gonna change your mind lol

[xwing]

@anyone who knows:theoretically, let's say ceej kills you, and you jail me..does the jail ability still work? or does the kill take precedence?

@volxen: what would consider to be a REALLY townie play for this instance?
and ah, i get your point re not lynching ceej immediately..good thinking..coz on my end i was just soooooo ready to vote him out even if he claimed doctor so i would know what setup we are in exactly lol!!

pedit:@thor: thanks for answering the questions! and thanks for being cool about our temper..for the record you werent throwing out smilies , you were throwing out wink faces which really didnt help make you more likeable!!

im surprised you mentioned that townies were able to identify each other..i mean i actually thought we were so fractured scum could easily skate by..but if you put it in a way like having our own "town groups", you're right that sky and ceej both didn't belong to anyone's strong town reads..hmmm..that's a very good point..

peditpedit: @CT: you were so townie, i got paranoid at you for being too townie hahaha!! thanks for obliging to re-analyze for us.. how were you so sure that ceej was really scum on your last few posts? how do you manage to be so freaking townie?!?!
also, having played with reundo, i know he tunneled into thor not coz he's IC, but because he really believed thor was scummy..to be honest i really thought that reundo would get exasperated and just drop it (like me and RCE) but he forged on lol..

pediteditedit: boy i think i type so slow..there's been 3 posts and im still not done typing lol!! hmmm in my first game the IC was scum fwiw

[xwing]

@xwing, I will say this, if your goal was to stand out more in this game compared to your last game, I think you definitely achieved that goal. Just not in the way you probably intended to!

you cheeky bastard go back to work!! hahaha!

It was multiple things that added up to Ceej being scum. I wanted to lynch him EOD1 and thought his doc claim was fake - I asked noone to counter because either the real doc would remain hidden and save the JK or scum were forced to keep the JK alive to preserve their claim. It was a bad claim because if there is an RB it is optimal play to RB the JK and kill the doc N1, followed by killing the JK N2. I was even more confident when you guys were all obv town. When I had to reread Thor vs Reundo it became like 100% certain after all the different avenues were explored and after seeing the other scums interactions. Honestly I'm not much of a mechanical player so I find it easier to tone/intent read peoples posts.

I was amazed you guys found me townie tbh. I can be obvious to people who know me but generally my aggressive flip/floppy style usually rubs people the wrong way and I more often than not get scumread because scum will jump on me as I'm an ideal mislynch. Not too towny and not too lynchbaity lol. I just play natural and want to win - I don't worry about how I come across as town as it's my objective to lynch scum, not to get townread (though the best players can do both well).

I think xwing calling for evidence to make their mind up (nova did this too) kind of doesn't vibe with my style - I like people to have their own ideas otherwise it looks like you're going along with the consensus - but as you can see when town does listen and work together it does work. I'm sure Thor has much better advice for you guys individually and you should take him up on the offer for a review.

most, if not all, found you pretty townie..i mean the only time we (well at least volxen and i) doubted you was on your flip-flop on sky.. the rest of your flip-flops appeared natural, as evidenced by no one calling you out for it..
noted on your last paragraph as well..i think it reflects my IRL personality of being indecisive..gotta work on that..i also enjoy working with a team and like to know what everyone thinks and be generally amicable..as you can see my IRL personality is inherently scummy hahaha

@thor: im feeling shy but if you've got time to offer individual advice/comments, i'll take you up on your offer..

Fwiw Xwing I thought you were pretty Townie when I went back and read through the game again. Your pushes were unfortunate choices but only because Thor can easily defend himself as either alignment I would think, and Volxen ended up being JK with a town slot defending him.

When I went back and read your posts it really seemed like a steady conscious flow and your hand was open. One of the good things about town is that you can post this way uninhibited because you only have to catch scummy behavior, not force scummy behavior of that makes sense.

The only problem is, and I have to work on this myself, when you run into a scum roll and you have to figure out how to replicate that and still get town where you want it.

thanks for your kind words.. i have yet to roll scum so i'll try to keep this in mind as well..
fwiw i think you were pretty townie, and you did a good job of laying the foundation of townie-ness on your slot which carried over to CT..

[xwing]

@nova, you were strong town for me coz i can easily understand where you're coming from, and why you decide to do certain things..what were you thinking..proofs to back up your claims without misreps..you were transparent and i felt there was no hidden agenda coming from your actions..we knew where you stand..

basically you have the same play style with reundo, and it resonates well with me..in your final post (before NK) i liked how you made a decision to scum read me even if you were unsure based on everything so far in the game, i think it's still helpful for town than having no reads at all..i just found it a bit too hard to convince you of my alignment and friendliness/intentions, tis all..but that could be coz of my initial bad play so my slot has a permanent black ink on it already so my bad..

fwiw i townread both reundo and RCE because they are willing to admit where they are wrong, and they are open to poke at their own arguments, or admit if their reasoning is a bit flawed or weak..in short they are self-critical up to a certain point..i mean when someone attacks their ideas and it made sense, they were willing to back down or admit it..but if the attack didnt made sense, they were critical of it and expressed it so..

for reundo another point was i felt his conviction that he was on to something on thor, and he was relentless towards that..yes i dont agree on the tunnel, but i nonetheless found it very townie..

and for both RCE and nova, though the scenario was different, i really got the genuine feeling of exasperation coming from town players who want to advance/win the game but are being hampered by some situation..

i agree it was a good that we outed PR volxen early..it's like he suddenly transformed from an ugly duckling into a beautiful(?) swan and was able to voice everything he wanted to say and became a leader with a good plan to boot..but sometimes i feel you're too stubborn and serious in game..i like your post-game tone better..and i like it most when you're not pushing for my death!!

for sky, i think it was unfortunate she got jailed while doing the NK (well it was fortunate for townies )..i think she could have lived longer into the day as she didnt completely stand out as scummy..she had a bit good going for her when RCE vouched for her entrance as townie..it was enough to sway me to think she was townie even though i had reservations on her buddying..i found your "oh" comment in the mafia PT funny (when CT switched her vote to ceej coz of your cheeky post)..i hope you're feeling better now after your bout with flu..

for ceej, i really enjoyed how you "faked" your emotions..you know with the "sigh" and "lols" and "lynch me for town to win" and my favorite, "are you voting me coz you think im dumb" hahaha..you know near the end i was getting convinced that you were a real doctor!! i think if you and sky started the game, the two of you would have performed great..i mean i sense that you both have the same posting style and that you gel well..

for CT, i find you very natural, so even when you were flip flopping i didnt find it suspicious at all (except the last bit on sky/ceej)..i found it funny when during your entrance you were berating sky like "eh L-1 on thor makes xwing townie how exactly?" then go on to the next post saying "nvm xwing's town for now but im not explaining why next please"..i mean in hindsight..how scummy is that?? but i dunno it just came off so natural no one even bothered to comment on it..
i like how you tend to make bold statements (like you were so sure and all..i wish i can do this..) but back track as needed..maybe it's what unconsciously make me townread you..

for haylen, apologies that we werent able to play with you for long and had to lynch you coz of deadline..

for thor, you were good both as an IC and as a player..i really appreciate your style of helping newer players without spoon feeding them directly and letting them think for themselves..i didnt get it at first and was seriously annoyed/exasperated coz i felt like you were deflecting using sarcasm/word play/rhetorics/playing to win the argument..you know with the oily fish and wimp stuff and wink face and all..but after cooling down a bit then re-reading, i felt the genuine desire to help us improve our play..especially when you called me out for not reading properly..and i think it's a good thing to be exposed to your kind of play style as not everyone is gonna play the way you want or expect them too..i refrained from thanking you in game coz it might be seen as buddying, but i really appreciated it.. but seriously though, give the newbies a little bit more slack, i seriously considered quitting the game and all you know!! and for unsolicited advice, try to use this --> (smiley, happy, friendly, makes heavy statements a bit lighter) and not this --> (sarcastic, cheeky, a bit condescending..makes heavy statements heavier or more sarcastic, especially with your style of writing) hahaha!!

[xwing]

I'm glad it played out this way, I would have felt bad mislynching poor xwing. Why did you have to do so many suspicious things, xwing! lol

i know right?!?!?! im baffled myself lol..how could a townie play so scummy lol..really in this newbie game i felt like i was the only real newbie here you guys were just awesome!!

i thought the way i played at the end even when i knew i was gonna lynched was pretty pro-town but i was still resigned to my death though coz i felt sure you werent gonna change your mind lol

I think you still played a reasonably towny game but the circumstances (you being jailed n2) made you a bit hard to trust

i know right?! haha i was very sure i wasnt getting NK'd coz i was such a good lynchbait..that's one of the reasons i didnt defend my lynch much..in fact i felt a bit relieved to be honest..i cant be in the finals, they will surely choose to lynch me

[xwing]

@thor: thanks a lot for your advice, i'll try to do this in my next game..i like how you put in the phrasings and behavior coz honestly i didnt realize i was doing the "appeasing" thing at all..
btw the wink face by itself is NAI..just dont end your rhetorics/sarcastic-leaning questions with a winky face..gaaaaah this is harder to explain than i thought..never mind just do your thing

@everyone: thanks again for the fun game, see you around!!

@mario: thanks for modding!!