TM2021 | Anime Destroys Untrod Tripod | Endgame

[Pine]

[Pine]

CRY HAVOC
AND LET SLIP
THE WOMBAT OF WAR

[Pine]

[Pine]

Okay, so, legit did not realize this had started until like, 1AM this morning. Spent the day looking at houses and getting my first COVID shot.

Reading up now!

[Pine]

@Pine did you roll scum here?

I have never been scum in my life.

[Pine]

Working on this now.

[Pine]

A quick scan of a few ISOs:

Zor looks fine to me. I have absolutely no idea what this wagon is about, aside from some of you pouting that he’s not doing what you want or expect. Hint: Anyone who yields to demands deserves suspicion, not trust.

NancyDrew is doing her usual petulant Town thing. She’s fine.

Norwegian is irritating the shit out of me, but jury’s out on whether it’s AI or not.

Flavor Leaf is unreadable so far. He always is. He is, however, too valuable if Town to be a D1 boot.

DEB is the only one who sticks out as distinctly suspicious so far.

I’ll reserve my vote for now, need to put those ISOs in context.

[Pine]

Pine calling DEB suspicious is also real funny.

DEB and Pine are both pretty sus. Can't believe town would lurk out like that.

ok this is fucking funny lol.

lolwut

Akarin literally the only player with less content than me, pushing me as a potentially-viable counterwagon to Zor.

Okay. I'm still not sold on Zor as scum, but this looks like an inept attempt to bail him out.

[Pine]

for what it's worth, I have reason to believe zoraster's claim is real, even if they are scum.

This pings me strongly as Town, and that makes me breathe a huge sigh of relief. I was really worried there weren't any adults in the room.

[Pine]

for what it's worth, I have reason to believe zoraster's claim is real, even if they are scum.

This pings me strongly as Town, and that makes me breathe a huge sigh of relief. I was really worried there weren't any adults in the room.

@Ico

Why does FL post this as scum.

He's clean.

[Pine]

for what it's worth, I have reason to believe zoraster's claim is real, even if they are scum.

This pings me strongly as Town, and that makes me breathe a huge sigh of relief. I was really worried there weren't any adults in the room.

maybe i'm just stoopid, but can you clarify what's so townie about it?

Nah nah you’re thinking about it inside out

It isn’t “What’s Townie about this?”

It’s “Why the fuck would FL post this as scum?”

There’s just no incentive.

Put yourself in scum!FL’s shoes. You’re voting Zor, he just admitted to a role which could very easily be scum.

All you have to do is sit back and let it happen. God knows, with all the trigger-happy yahoos in this game, it’s a good chance one of them pushes him over the edge for kicks.

Giving grudging acknowledgement that the roleclaim tracks gives credibility to the claim. Not a lot, but some.

There’s zero cost to scum!FL to just say nothing, and potentially a lot of incentive. Taking out a Town PR on D1, especially a player as strong and experienced as Zor...why rock that boat?

In contrast, there’s no points to be gained by giving Zor that little stability. The odds that someone like me catches it, decides to make a Towncase based on it, and gets believed...

The cost/benefit here for scum!FL is just all out of whack. He’s way, way too good for that.

In contrast, Town!FL giving grudging acknowledgment of facts is a genuine drive to share relevant information.

Flavor Leaf is Town.

[Pine]

I don’t fully townread Zor, but with that claim they’ve put an target on their back so i’m willing to back off since they will hopefully get resolved at some point anyways.

UNVOTE:

How much time do we have left?

1. Quick Attack: Alisae, chennisden, Mistyx, MURDERCAT
2. Class of 2175: Gypyx, innocentvillager, Iconeum, sirius9121
3. Mask Your Worries: JacksonVirgo, JohnnyFarrar, TheGoldenParadox, Noraa
4. Pa-Ni-Nis: xRECKONERx, thestatusquo, Cheetory6, AGar

5. Team 'Team 'Team' Team' Team: Hopkirk, Hectic, Flopz, Zaiden

6. Loyal Servants: Xtoxm, Auro, Pink Ball, Flavor Leaf
7. Whatever Farm Animal of War: Jingle, Dannflor, Pine, Aristophanes

8. Daylight Savings Time: lillith2013, something_smart, Datisi, the worst
9. The Four Seasons: Infinity 324, Ydrasse, Uncrowned, Kanna
10. Mana Crypt: MariaR, beeboy, Menalque Ampharos, unwnd
11. Onlyregfans: petapan, staypositivefriend, Super, hercule

12. Suicide Squad: PookyTheMagicalBear, DKKoba, OkaPoka, Nancy Drew 39
13. The Fakeclaim Processing Department: Ramcius, SirCakez, Creature, DrippingGoofball
14. All your Scummies belong to us: Albert B. Rampage, NorwegianboyEE, Firebringer, Morning Tweet clidd
15. Maybe the Real Mods...: xofelf, zoraster, PrivateI, Cephrir
16. Half a Good Team Plus Two: DeasVail, Ythan, BBmolla, Jake The Wolfie
17. Basterd Modding: Gamma Emerald, Dr Easy Bake, Almost50, The Bulge
18. Perfect Grammar: Dunnstral, Akarin, Adorable, midwaybear

Bolded = all of the teams playing in this game and based off if this, neither TGP nor DEB should be voting me here.

Yeah this is 100% Nancy!Town

It’s absolutely batshit insane and makes no damn sense, is indignant and abrasive, and is about as self-aware as a basset hound, but that’s what Nancy!Town looks like.

[Pine]

I don’t fully townread Zor, but with that claim they’ve put an target on their back so i’m willing to back off since they will hopefully get resolved at some point anyways.

UNVOTE:

How much time do we have left?

Quoting issue.

We have like nine days. Pump the brakes, crazytrain.

[Pine]

A) I apologize for the aspersions on your psychology. I do not understand much of what you do or why you do it, and it is easy and cheap to slap a derogatory label on it rather than try to solve it. That’s not fair or kind and I will refrain.
B) That said, your insistence that others are able to have instant and reliable meta tells on you is absolute horseshit. It always has been and continues to be. Your ongoing inability to understand why people suspect you in a game revolving around deception represents a stunning lack of self-awareness that I’d hoped you’d outgrown
C) You are wildly overestimating most teams’ attention to their teammates’ games.
D) And also their willingness to dictate their teammates’ reads
E) And further the willingness of most players to take their teammates reads as gospel
F) These flaws in your understanding of how other people process reads you believe to be obvious contributes heavily to the aforementioned self-awareness issue
G) All that said, it also contributes to my Townread of you. Given the stakes of this game, I am willing to shelve my frustration and work with you until either you are killed to reduce free chaos in the playerset or I am killed as a threat.
H) The quoting issue was in regards to the time we have until deadline, nothing to do with TGP, whom I haven’t managed to sort yet.
I) I am also having difficulty sorting Shea

[Pine]

^@Nancy

Stoopid dragon pre-empting an easy back and forth

Also also I am clearly now invested in the game, my usual D1 absence can be considered over.

PE: GO JUMP OFF A GLACIER, ICEBIRD

[Pine]

Checking in.

I had a kidney stone issue Wednesday night, and I am still kind of gradually recovering from the ordeal. Hopefully getting a good night's sleep tonight will get me back to 100%. I should be up first thing and giving this proper attention.

Based on my earlier reads and the current wagon composition, I consider the Zoraster wagon to be cursed. Akarin was scummy af earlier and I like that wagon comp better.

VOTE: Akarin

[Pine]

VOTE: BBMolla

VOTE: BBMolla

Why Molla? Why is he scum?

Yeah an Akarin vote here feels like a Town endorsement of BB

[Pine]

A quick scan of a few ISOs:

Zor looks fine to me. I have absolutely no idea what this wagon is about, aside from some of you pouting that he’s not doing what you want or expect. Hint: Anyone who yields to demands deserves suspicion, not trust.

NancyDrew is doing her usual petulant Town thing. She’s fine.

Norwegian is irritating the shit out of me, but jury’s out on whether it’s AI or not.

Flavor Leaf is unreadable so far. He always is. He is, however, too valuable if Town to be a D1 boot.

DEB is the only one who sticks out as distinctly suspicious so far.

I’ll reserve my vote for now, need to put those ISOs in context.

Shea, skimming through an ISO as short as mine really oughtn’t require multiple demands.

[Pine]

My dude, seriously fuck off.

Norwegian is scummy af, and BB and TGP have been on and off the Zor wagon. You and Mistyx have also been hard to parse.

Meanwhile, Towny people are voting scummy Akarin for better reasons.

It’s a commonly-held fallacy that I have to answer all questions put to me and/or explain every facet of my reasoning.

I don’t.

[Pine]

Meanwhile, Towny people are voting scummy Akarin for better reasons.

What reason? Can you even explain why you are voting Akarin?

Yes, and I did.

Not really vibing with characterizing a straight answer and curt dismissal as “anger,” but you do you.

[Pine]

A quick scan of a few ISOs:

Zor looks fine to me. I have absolutely no idea what this wagon is about, aside from some of you pouting that he’s not doing what you want or expect. Hint: Anyone who yields to demands deserves suspicion, not trust.

NancyDrew is doing her usual petulant Town thing. She’s fine.

Norwegian is irritating the shit out of me, but jury’s out on whether it’s AI or not.

Flavor Leaf is unreadable so far. He always is. He is, however, too valuable if Town to be a D1 boot.

DEB is the only one who sticks out as distinctly suspicious so far.

I’ll reserve my vote for now, need to put those ISOs in context.

Shea, skimming through an ISO as short as mine really oughtn’t require multiple demands.

So you like Zor then? Maybe I should keep my vote where it is then? I just really feel strongly that TGP is scum and unlike Norwee, I think how a player interacts with you is possibly the most valuable information you can have.

I'm not really settled on Zor yet, but the reasons for voting for him and the people doing it have me really wary of the wagon. TGP might be a reasonable vote, but I think Akarin is more likely to flip scum.

What if I told you that things which are wrong from your perspective arent necessarily wrong from the perspective of people who aren't you? That's my biggest problem with your reasoning. All the other stuff besides that seems spot on.

Also I'm trying to decide if I'm voting pine or not. I don't think I'm willing to let them come in, do dick all while angrily shading me and then disengage from the game again.

I've been neither angry towards you, nor have I shaded you. I have shown healthy suspicion of you and disinterest in engaging in your aggressive rhetoric.

[Pine]

I) I am also having difficulty sorting Shea

Based on my earlier reads and the current wagon composition, I consider the Zoraster wagon to be cursed. Akarin was scummy af earlier and I like that wagon comp better.

VOTE: Akarin

Shea, skimming through an ISO as short as mine really oughtn’t require multiple demands.

My dude, seriously fuck off.

Norwegian is scummy af, and BB and TGP have been on and off the Zor wagon. You and Mistyx have also been hard to parse.

Meanwhile, Towny people are voting scummy Akarin for better reasons.

It’s a commonly-held fallacy that I have to answer all questions put to me and/or explain every facet of my reasoning.

I don’t.

This is literally everything I've said to or about you, snipping out the irrelevant parts of quotes.

None of that's angry. @Norwegian, I've said even less to or about you.

If being lightly suspicious of someone is "angry shading," you ain't playing Mafia.

[Pine]

@Norwegian, I've said even less to or about you.

Which is quite odd for someone you "suspect".
Why aren't you trying to solve my allignment?

What part of "I find you suspicious" is not trying to solve you?

Frankly, this kind of bullshit, disingenuous attack is why I think you're +rand scum, and the fact that you and others have been doing the same to Zor make me think he's +rand Town.

[Pine]

@Norwegian, I've said even less to or about you.

Which is quite odd for someone you "suspect".
Why aren't you trying to solve my allignment?

Nah. "Why aren't you trying to solve my alignment" when I clearly am is both nonsense and disingenuous.

[Pine]

Votecount 1.21

zoraster(4)

~ thestatusquo(188), NorwegianboyEE(179), Mistyx(69), BBMolla(79)

Akarin(3)

~ Ramcius(60), Pine(24), zoraster(26)

BBMolla(2)

~ TheGoldenParadox(43), Akarin(23)

TheGoldenParadox(1)

~ Nancy Drew 39(277)

Ramcius(1)

~ Dr Easy Bake(20)

Pine(1)

~ Iconeum(164)


Not Voting (1): Flavor Leaf(203)


With 13 alive it takes 7 to eliminate.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2021-01-29 19:00:00)

Mod Notes

• Have fun!

VOTE: Zoraster

E-2 right?

Just...ugh. No, Nancy. Stop listening to them. You actually are better than that.

[Pine]

Okay, I'm going to trigger my replacement strategy at this point.

I apologize for having been disengaged. I was falling back on my "D1 means nothing" attitude, then excusing it due to running a LSG (which is a hell of a lot more work than anticipated), but really I've just procrastinated, seeing 20-some pages to catch up on and noping out.

I'm going to read the last ten pages, mod ISO, and move forward with fresh eyes. I'm obviously not a replacement, as I've got a number of reads from early D1 (including a couple of rock solid TRs) and my teammates have loosely been paying attention, but starting fresh seems the most reasonable thing to do.

If there's anything I should know, i.e. claims that might get buried, point me to them please.

[Pine]

like honestly, i dont give a fuck at this point.

if you think i'm scum here, y'all hopeless

Couldn't agree more.

VOTE: Norwegian

My team's been helping out with reads while I flounder a bit catching up. Dannflor's money is on a Norwegian/Akarin/TGP scumteam, though I'm not sold on TGP. Jingle largely agrees though we talked about tracking the night kill, trying to figure out who would have shot BB. He's not an obvious shot, and that can really say a lot. It was a process of elimination, but we thought the person with the best combination of experience, perceived threat level, and teammates might be Mistyx.

I'm feeling pretty good about those reads. {Norwegian, Akarin} and one of {TGP, Mistyx} seems most likely.

I'll support that with Townreads -

Flavor Leaf and Nancy continue to be rock solid TRs for me.

Shea is playing recklessly and punishing people who aren't as invested in the game. I fucking hate that, and it's generally anti-Town, but the vigor of it suggests he's pursuing an aggressive attempt to sort. If he were flippant and actually

pursued

his shitty vendettas, it might be a scum veneer. He's not - he drops them as soon as he has a real lead. I can respect that.

Ramcius and Iconeum are harder to read, but playing generally to a pro-Town agenda.

DEB I haven't got a clue on.

[Pine]

I'm an investigative with a soft clear on status.

Fuck...you just...had to do this just as I was defending you again.

Explain, please.

[Pine]

I'm an investigative with a soft clear on status.

Fuck...you just...had to do this just as I was defending you again.

Explain, please.

im lying

Okay never mind. Carry on.

[Pine]

Ftr I have other thoughts on Akarin as well that I'd like to throw out there, just finished a deep dive:

1) The juxtaposition of Akarin as town in Among us mafia with her play in this game. This isn't just an activity thing, though it's exacerbated by it. If you go back and look at her iso in that game (here you'll note the difference. The engagement with the game isnt something measured by activity but by how akarin is actually trying to solve the game. Compare a post like this:

it doesnt matter if someone needs to be in a room two nights in a row. the point of leashing the entire PL is that nobody can wander off and kill you when u r in that room alone on night 2

I meant in terms of how many nights it make take to complete. We can't just visit X number of rooms each night and cover each room on 1 night.

Maybe not enough people have combinations like mine for it to matter, but wanted to claim this before we get too far.

Also splitting into smaller groups where the towniest players are paired makes sense, but if scum have a regular NK they can potentially frame people.

or this

Blitzo, you say a few times that no-elim is obviously bad, like to the point you want to vote for people suggesting it.

Why?

The idea behind it is that we get tasks done faster if we have more players working on them and D1 eliminations are usually on town anyway.

After 1 Day, 1/3-1/2 of the tasks are gonna be done so each miseliminated townie only adds 1 task unless they were one of the minority who didn't do one as part of keeping someone else safe.

What part of that is obviously bad to you?

with her posts in this game like this

I sort of instinctively want to defend Zor because that wagon came up so fast, but I really don't see anything towny from them, and looking at the claim I don't like it. Debating hammering.

The majority of her posts are stuff like this. There's some stuff that's closer to the town Akarin I saw in among us, particularly when she jumps into the zoraster claim discussion, but the majority of it is just fluff devoid of any attempt to solve anything.

Why did I sign up for an anime game? I still have no idea what this means.

I think both the ability name and being a JOAT are perfectly plausible for the anime character that Zor claimed, but I have some doubts that they would go together.

i.e. if the ability was going to be named "Kiin" as claimed, I don't know what it would be, but I wouldn't think it would be a JOAT. And if she were to be a JOAT I'd think the ability would be named something else given the character. See the wiki I linked for details.

Dunn thinks I'm overthinking this.

Also, the more I think about it the more I don't like stuff like this. I think its subtle shade of zoraster that was attempting to fence sit the wagon (in addition to the quote I linked earlier where she shades the wagon while saying she might hammer it. In addition to that her reason for suspecting the claim seems really dubious to me, granted I don't really know anything about anime but it seemed like she was saying "the pieces fit but not quite in the right way" which is something scum might say to casually shade to continue momentum on a wagon. We even get the "lol my teammate thinks all of this is nonsense." so we're not even supposed to put that much credence into what she's saying.

This form of wishy washy refusing to take a stand is scum indicative, and again doesn't match my impression of the way Akarin plays as town from Among us. The akarin in that game had opinions and fought for them, not meekly thrown out shade that was counterbalanced by her own teammates saying it was bad.

I also find it weird that this was thrown in randomly. If akarin is having trouble with this game why aren't her teammates helping her more? You'd think they'd be able to give more impressions about the game than the one time they've been referenced as a throwaway. In my experience playing team mafia in 2018 teams are more likely to be actively reading the game and giving opinions if you're town than if you're scum. The logic on this is very clear: town needs help finding the scum and scum do not. I don't expect people to bring up their reads from their teammates all the time and indeed I would be annoyed if they did that, I just feel like akarin is using them in a very specific way here and that's rubbing me the wrong way.

So I thought we didn't want to elim Zor through the JOAT claim? Did that change or was it not just as much a consensus as I thought it was?

This post is interesting because its a really weird progression with her other thoughts on Zor. She was the main proponent of not believing the JOAT claim and shading it and now is acting surprised when people didn't believe it? This seems incredibly fake.

Yeah, I think I'd rather any of the other non-me wagons than Zor.

Here we are staying off the wagon even though earlier we declared that zor "hadn't done a single townie thing" and after shading the claim and after saying she was considering hammering.

I'm here to VOTE: Akarin yet again.

tl;dr Even outside of the activity issues and the AtE, I think akarins interaction with zor is textbook scum trying to stay off a town wagon while still trying to give it momentum, and I think her general approach to the game is just entirely different from among us.

Okay

VOTE: Akarin

[Pine]

'solid' townreads on the 2 potentially strongest players in this game is just easy. It makes you stay out of harms way. It doesn't ruffle any feathers. It's so safe it just pings me like crazy. Not that I don't understand those reads, but they didn't develop very well ya feel. and FL's play here is just so anti-town, it's rough not seeing Pine call that out.

His take on me is just terrible. Pine knows me a lot better then that.

Generaly very pinged by that post yeah

Hi! Please play better. I've barely been present and I'm doing better than that.

[Pine]

Ugh, no, Nancy.

Don’t ask him to link a scumgame. If he’s scum, he’ll just link to one that looks like this, and if he’s Town he’s more likely to pick a random one that won’t represent anything in particular.

I hate this sort of faux meta. You either do the work or accrue it naturally over time. Cherry-picking just leads to bad or random reads.

[Pine]

Ramcius I’m pretty sure Ico just needs to take a step back. Its reads feel heavily emotion-based, and its pursuing a lot of what appear to be TvT vendettas.

[Pine]

He*

[Pine]

@Norwegian take a hint

[Pine]

like honestly, i dont give a fuck at this point.

if you think i'm scum here, y'all hopeless

Couldn't agree more.

VOTE: Norwegian

My team's been helping out with reads while I flounder a bit catching up. Dannflor's money is on a Norwegian/Akarin/TGP scumteam, though I'm not sold on TGP. Jingle largely agrees though we talked about tracking the night kill, trying to figure out who would have shot BB. He's not an obvious shot, and that can really say a lot. It was a process of elimination, but we thought the person with the best combination of experience, perceived threat level, and teammates might be Mistyx.

I'm feeling pretty good about those reads. {Norwegian, Akarin} and one of {TGP, Mistyx} seems most likely.

I'll support that with Townreads -

Flavor Leaf and Nancy continue to be rock solid TRs for me.

Shea is playing recklessly and punishing people who aren't as invested in the game. I fucking hate that, and it's generally anti-Town, but the vigor of it suggests he's pursuing an aggressive attempt to sort. If he were flippant and actually

pursued

his shitty vendettas, it might be a scum veneer. He's not - he drops them as soon as he has a real lead. I can respect that.

Ramcius and Iconeum are harder to read, but playing generally to a pro-Town agenda.

DEB I haven't got a clue on.

All the information you want is in here. I’m not spending half my lunch break getting into the weeds on an asked-and-answered scummy question from scum.

This is exactly the kind of “Look, I’m pressuring people!” insistence that adds nothing except a hollow attempt to manufacture Towncred. Bite me.

[Pine]

Asked and answered twice now. Get a hobby or refine your question.

[Pine]

@Shea because you’ve been hyper aggressive about your generally-shitty reads.

[Pine]

All of y’all need to be way less needy. This is one of the things I hate about current site meta.

You are not special. You are not entitled to a grand discussion whenever you present a new rendition of your opinions.

PE: My dude, this far you’ve been the antagonistic one. You’re largely taking offense to being ignored.

[Pine]

Yes. I voted for Akarin for roughly parallel reasons.

Please identify how much you want your ego stroked.

[Pine]

As for “do something,” I have fairly firm reads on everyone except DEB now, who I am convinced is some sort of tangential jabberwock sent from the future to confuse me.

Again, not engaging in your screeds constitutes neither antagonism nor ignoring you. I’m finally playing the game and you’re berating me for personal reasons.

[Pine]

I have exactly zero problem with you, Shea, except that you’re taking things very personally.

[Pine]

I have exactly zero problem with you, Shea, except that you’re taking things very personally.

Perhaps you should examine the words you use to speak to and describe other human beings. You would never speak to me this way IRL and we're supposedly playing a fun game on the internet. I'm going to stop interacting with you about this right now because its super fucking distracting to anything thats relevant to this game but if you genuinely think you were just sitting here doin' nothing and I just got offended out of nowhere then I don't know what to tell you. Please stop being this rude to me.

I’m sorry for offending you. That was not my intention. I have a healthy respect for you as a person, but I have felt attacked throughout this game. Perhaps I laid into that a bit much.

I feel your reads this game have been off. The Zor elim attests to that, as does your abiding antagonism towards people who simply have busy lives. I am disinterested in litigating your reads until they make more sense to me, and have written you off as tunnel-visioned Town.

I am willing to start fresh if you are. Again, I apologize for my tone.

[Pine]

God this tea is so delicious.

I've decided that no matter what happens in this game i shall try to remain as calm as possible, nothing will bother me. I am become zen, i am reaching Nirvana.

This, incidentally, is practically a textbook definition of scum cheering on a TvT spat.

[Pine]

VOTE: Norwee

Cool, so Akarin is Town. Thanks for the slip.

[Pine]

You’re right, it’s not. Overeager scum tipping their hand is not a ‘slip,’ but it is information.

[Pine]

There were far more obvious targets for the NK, Nancy. That’s why it surprised us. Hell, if I were scum, you’d be dead right now. I always prefer to kill the unpredictable elements. FL, Shea, even a strong player who hadn’t made an impact yet like Ico or I makes sense. A mid-pack Townlean? That suggests scum have a medium level of experience - avoiding the obvious protect but not really targeting a long-term mover. BB was always going to get sorted quickly, either graduating to obvtown and becoming an existential threat or continuing to not do very much and fading into the background. He was an awful NK, unless scum felt personally threatened by him. That again suggests scum not at the top tier. Hell, those facts alone cross FL and Shea off the list, and point again to people like Norwee, Akarin, and TGP. Mistyx made the list due to her teammates. Alisae probably would have advocated offing me before I got really involved, so I’m not sold. Then again, e might have written me off as replacement bait or a potential mis-elim so I dunno.

[Pine]

alisae hasn't been in chat since e got banned

Mmmmmm that is true, but was not taken into account in our deliberations. Good information.

[Pine]

@TheStatusQuo

If Akarin flips town, would you consider FL/Pine?

I would prefer Pine -> Akarin if there is no support for FL.

Pine/Akarin is the epitome of "a player who defends another player by attacking the other player's attacker is very probably scum".

Check out the textbook cognitive dissonance here!

If your vote isn’t on Norwegian, it should be.

[Pine]

very well

then i'm officially done with this game

congrats FL

if this is town!you, you just threw this game

i am voting you until either you die, or i'm dead

i have no further interest in this game until either one happens

VOTE: FL

play the fucking game or gtfo

What the actual fuck are you doing, Iconeum. Pull your head out of your scaly ass.

[Pine]

You’re voting personality, not evidence. Stop it. You’re better than that

[Pine]

Check out the textbook cognitive dissonance here!

There really isn't, you seem to make it out as if my post was saying i wanted to vote Akarin but i was only stating that you/FL/Ramcius should get way more attention if Akarin ended up becoming the elimination and flipped town.

Try again.

Nnnnnnoope. You don’t get to line up three Town mis-elims, then claim I’m chainsawing for one of them. You’ve gotta make up your mind, or at least feign a halfway decent progression.

FL, stop engaging. I don’t know when Iconeum is going to drop the tantrum and get his head straight, but antagonizing him further isn’t helping. It’s 2AM here, let’s all just go to our corners for the night.

[Pine]

i'll even take votes from my scumreads in that list at this point

That’s really where you should be stepping back to reassess. You’re not playing rationally. It’s kind of spewing you Town, but not in a good way.

Please take a step back.

[Pine]

Mistyx
thestatusquo
Ramcius
Dr Easy Bake
Akarin

3 of these players will need to vote FL, or Nancy/Pine have to change their minds which I deem unlikely?

can these players talk to me about why they would or wouldn't sheep me here?

Because they see that I'm town because they aren't being ignorant surface level players.

Playing like this does absolutely nothing for me, it only adds my possibility of being faded.

If you are town, you will be taking the blame for this, not me.

This is unhelpful. Please take the break you wanted.

[Pine]

i'll throw in some cookies if needed but i'd rather not

Nah, I will fucking tear Ico to the ground if they're gonna do this trash ignorant surface level push

Please stop. This is how scum win.

[Pine]

Pine do you think "lining up town miselims" is a thing that actually happens in real life? Like actually? I've been playing for a decade and a half and I think I've seen it like once. Like this doesn't seem like an intellectually honest argument on your part.

Also, for someone who wanted to make a big deal about TMI that obviously wasn't TMI earlier you sure did just say a couple players were town that you can't possibly know the alignment of.

Of...of fucking COURSE it happens, Shea. It happens all the damn time. You just rarely see it so blatantly. I think Norwee was genuinely getting overeager there.

I don’t know what you’re referring to with the second half there.

[Pine]

You really think that people vote someone the next day because they agreed to vote them the day before? Show me. I think the thing you're accusing norwee of is nonsense.

You said someone is "trying to set up three town miselims." how do you know those people are town, other than yourself? I don't do this to suggest you're TMIing, I'm saying it to show how much I think TMI is a bullshit overused tell. Townies accidentally TMI all the time.

I’m not pulling receipts on my phone in bed at 2AM, and likely won’t tomorrow.

I don’t know those three are Town - but one is me, and another is my strongest TR. The third is/was shaping up to be the most likely compromise elim. Being pushed by my top scumread in this manner is making me get extreme cold feet on the Akarin wagon, because he’s laying the groundwork for an Akarin Townflip to be weaponized against two of the strongest players. Up until that post, I was all for an Akarin elim, and now I don’t think it’s wise.

[Pine]

You really think that people vote someone the next day because they agreed to vote them the day before? Show me. I think the thing you're accusing norwee of is nonsense.

You said someone is "trying to set up three town miselims." how do you know those people are town, other than yourself? I don't do this to suggest you're TMIing, I'm saying it to show how much I think TMI is a bullshit overused tell. Townies accidentally TMI all the time.

oh lol

pine scumslipped lol

nice

we can do him next

Nope. My reasoning is quite consistent, thank you.

[Pine]

“Opportunistic” = pushing a scumread I’ve had since my first substantive post. Huh.

[Pine]

you're not gonna be happy with anything i fucking say, so stop fucking acting like you give a fuck


sure, it could, i just don't think it is. you're just looking for reasons.

that's not true, i would indeed give a lot of fucks for some 'normal' content on your behalf

your fault for assuming

this is normal content

i play off vibes and actions, i dont give a shit about meta if it's not self meta. i care about true familiarity.

Kids these days think meta is a thing you obtain by skimming one or two games. You’ve gotta walk a mile in a guy’s shoes first.

Known you for years and I can only sometimes get a vibe off of you. That’s why I picked out that one post early on as proof positive. “Link me a scum game of yours,” honestly. You’ve gotta

play

those games to actually get it.

[Pine]

Am I really talking myself into a fucking pine town read?

[Pine]

for someone who asked me to stop engaging with you, you certainly seem to be baiting me bigtime here

which means you don't want me to back off and actually fight you?

sure

yup.

I will bait you, and expect you to back off.

That's how it works, kid

You should really stop treating Iconeum like a dumb kid. He’s from the newer generation of Mafia players, but he’s generally a lot more level than this. He’s just wrong and tilted here.

[Pine]

for someone who asked me to stop engaging with you, you certainly seem to be baiting me bigtime here

which means you don't want me to back off and actually fight you?

sure

yup.

I will bait you, and expect you to back off.

That's how it works, kid

You should really stop treating Iconeum like a dumb kid. He’s from the newer generation of Mafia players, but he’s generally a lot more level than this. He’s just wrong and tilted here.

ill tell the older generation of mafia players off too if i gotta. i dont mind being the villain.

You’re gonna have to walk me through that Norwee TR though.

[Pine]

im a bigger puppet master as town than i am scum

Self-meta note: I don’t actually

have

a Towngame. It’s all just repurposed scum skills.

[Pine]

Flavor Leaf

Please

Please stop

I’m finally in the game

Please don’t make me wake up to twenty pages of dick-measuring

That would just be a chore

[Pine]

How likely is a scum neighborizer really?

according to my teammate, near lockscum

I wouldn’t go quite that far, but yeah. Neighborizer is a really common scum role. Statistics* say 75/25 scum/Town

According to a study I just made up based on anecdotal evidence

[Pine]

They really are. I think they’re interesting when pre-formed and used as part of the design conceit of a theme game, but created hoods are usually useless at best.

[Pine]

Hence why it (anecdotally) feels like every notable neighborhood is scum-motivated.

Except that one,

right, Penguin

? Wrecked ‘em.

[Pine]

I'm explicitly not doing that. I just am refusing to let your AtE derail my scum read.

That is indeed explicitly not the case against you

[Pine]

what if kink shaming is my kink

Checkmate

[Pine]

Titus needs to explain that Norwee take.

[Pine]

I'm literally never in a million years making a decision in a mafia game based off of Titus VCA which in my opinion has never been used to draw correct conclusions in the history of ever.

[Pine]

I respect Titus's opinion, but that kind of vagueness is pinging my scumdar hard.

[Pine]

I'm literally never in a million years making a decision in a mafia game based off of

Titus VCA which in my opinion has never been used to draw correct conclusions in the history of ever

.

I respect Titus's opinion

, but that kind of vagueness is pinging my scumdar hard.

ok

There’s a difference between the general and the specific. I generally enjoy and trust Town!Titus’s opinions, but when she’s vague and incomprehensible, it’s a big sign she doesn’t believe what she’s saying.

Not a fan of being taken so blatantly out of context.

you have absolute braindead takes on this game, you cut out multiple possibilities without explanation, you're pushing what I find to be absolute hot garbage takes not on me, dude, you just still got your newbie showing if you're town, and are just pigheaded scum if scum, which is fine, do what you want

You know this is a good scumcase on Norwee, right? Come on in to the wagon, the water’s fine

A short timeline of what happened in the TGP hood:

-he invites me, and opens with a post that basicly says that he hooded me because i'm not a lurker and sorteable. He also confirmed his action.
-i spammed quite a bit of my thoughts, some of which were aimed at baiting a reaction and weren't entirely truthfull. I overstated my scumread on you (but still, i had every intention of poking you today)
-i made a remark of how terrible of an idea it would be to push you today in the current gamestate and that it would result in a total shitfest (who could've imagined that lol)

-TGP basicly agreed with my take on you, that pushing you today is a bad idea but that he would also be interested in poking you to get some AI content out of you. He suggested a D3 join-push on you.

In short, when the environment seemed to turn 'ripe' for a push on you, he came into the main thread and just joined the push on you. No discussing it in our hood, no agreements, no shared thoughts.

That felt incredibly opportunistic to me.

I like this post a LOT for Town!Ico, which makes me a lot more comfortable with my weak TR on him at day start. I could also sign on to a TGP elim, this is a good case.

Norwegian/TGP/Status could be a team, but Status would have probably shaded me more if that were the case, but he seemed to try to brush Norwegian off the TvT, maybe because he thinks that they would lose, but that's an option I'm looking into right now

I don’t buy Shea as scum here. I also don’t think he’d put up with the shenanigans we’ve seen from that team.

Norwegian/TGP/Status could be a team, but Status would have probably shaded me more if that were the case, but he seemed to try to brush Norwegian off the TvT, maybe because he thinks that they would lose, but that's an option I'm looking into right now

TSQ is town based on the fact that he got so upset that nobody was listening to his reads and push - I don't think that was faked

Exactly. His anger at me and especially his, “What am I doing here, I need to cut ties,” post were hard Town. It’s what got me to check myself and apologize. He has substantially contributed to the health of the gamestate when wallowing in the mud would have been fine. It’s a Town motive.

[Pine]

I would support a Norwee or TGP push right now. I don’t condone Akarin until we see a Norwee flip or something else changes

[Pine]

I generally enjoy and trust Town!Titus’s opinions

then why did you quote TSQ saying she'd never been right with them

Looking back at the quote, I was reading it as “I never trust Titus VCA in this game.” You’re right, Shea was making a universal statement, I was not.

[Pine]

titus says that Norwee and FL should never be voted unless Akarin flips town

i'm inclined to agree

I don't think this is a super bad take though, even if anyone dislikes VCA by principle.
If Akarin is town then it proves both me and FL are most likely in a SvT, and if Akarin is scum then maybe this just is a TvT and scum are in the inactive fucks or cheering our TvT on.

I’m not changing my vote until either me/FL is flipped or FL admits he is wrong on me.
I’m not going to become the elimination in ElO because of FL’s garbage play.
If FL agrees on voting someone else like Akarin then i’ll consider voting there as well. Otherwise, no.

Sweet jebas these are scummy posts

Credit @Dannflor

[Pine]

Nancy - Jingle wants you to know that he is in no way reading all of the TM games closely enough to watch for PR tells, and expecting him to do so is horseshit. He (and I) have lives. IIRC, this is the only one he’s following at all closely, and that’s because I’m in over my head with work, my LSG, and the fact that my Towngame is trash. There’s also a significant difference between calling out hard claims as scummy and catching crumbs.

Also, while he’s here, he wants me to emphasize just how fucking scummy it is that Norwee keeps provoking Flavor Leaf, riling him up, then accusing him of toxicity. He’s stirring the pot and manipulating the gamestate.

[Pine]

He also activity spikes on werkends too.
Can you give some question to Pine and FL too? It’s getting really annoying how i keep getting asking these extremely obvious questions and needing to put in Herculean efforts to save this game while Pine is sipping with a girly drink on Tahiti beach and letting FL do all the work for him.

Oh hey, while I’M here, asking obvious surface-level questions, then bemoaning how much work you’re doing is like scum 101.

[Pine]

I am not a huge fan of JJH just starting to read the game right now. As I mentioned earlier my experience is that teams tend to read/stay current with their teams town games and not necessarily with their scum games so JJH starting a read like this doesn't feel great because it seems to me that it would be more indicative of scum being like "hey I'm being wagoned I need some help" more so than town who would likely have had their team reading the game the whole time.

Why wasn't JJH reading your game the whole time? Why wasn't the rest of your team?

This is also horseshit. I haven’t tracked a teammate’s game as any alignment ever, and I’d say that’s true for about half of TM players

[Pine]

They might call my attention to something or get my take, but it’s THEIR game, not mine

[Pine]

My claim confirms me Town, I will not be going first.

Flavor Leaf can go, and then I'd like to hear others.

I 100% support massclaim, I think we can break this with setup.

[Pine]

My claim confirms me Town, I will not be going first.

Unless your claim is literally innocent child you can claim now.

Dude, you're literally scum. You can bite me.

FL, what did you do N1?

[Pine]

Damn, well, that explains things.

[Pine]

damn. =/ you had an inno on me, huh?

No

[Pine]

I mean it explains some of your behavior

[Pine]

like a disloyal shot targeting me, but i commuted, so it counters the inno. I felt it.

I am not investigative, except in a tangential way.

I am still going last. Continue the claiming.

[Pine]

Shut the actual fuck up.

[Pine]

Shut the actual fuck up.

What on earth is your problem?

You've spent the entire game shading and undermining the productive progression of this game, and now you've set your sights on me. You are outmatched. I will not be putting up with your snide comments and dissembling. It's scum 101, and you're disgustingly transparent about it.

It's dirty play and I'm done with it.

[Pine]

Shut the actual fuck up.

What on earth is your problem?

You've spent the entire game shading and undermining the productive progression of this game, and now you've set your sights on me. You are outmatched. I will not be putting up with your snide comments and dissembling. It's scum 101, and you're disgustingly transparent about it.

It's dirty play and I'm done with it.

Take your medication mate.
I've been completely transparent and fair this entire game.
Quite frankly, this is making me question your position as a discussion forum moderator.

That's kind of

exactly

what I'm talking about. You respond with a sneering comment implying I'm off my meds, make an absurd statement about you being a big damn hero in your own mind, and then try to shame and discredit me due to unrelated things.

It's classic attack/defend/misdirect.

[Pine]

Incidentally, weaponizing mental illness is

wildly

over the line.

[Pine]

But you don't - you attack the person more than the play, and sabotage things before they happen. You're undermining my claim before I've even made it, and belittling the scope of the criticism I'm offering by minimizing it to a single post.

It's dishonest and really scummy.

[Pine]

I haven't tracked the last few hours, but Ari finally started taking a look at the game and says massclaim is done.

I am a Asta, a Town Jailkeeper. Aside from FL's 1-shot Doc, I am the only protective role in the game.

I jailed Flavor Leaf Night One to protect him, which is what led to this exchange:

I'm an investigative with a soft clear on status.

Fuck...you just...had to do this just as I was defending you again.

Explain, please.

im lying

Okay never mind. Carry on.

I jailed Iconeum N2, when he was apparently killed by Strongman DEB.

Jailkeeper in the hands of Town is correctly used as a defensive role, but if we can elim scum today, it can shift sharply into a pseudo-investigative role. I will change posture from protecting Townies to roleblocking scum suspects, which should produce effective investigative results.

My team and I have been working on this, and we believe we nearly have a mathematical solution.

Akarin is Town due to role. Nice shot, I apologize for ever doubting you.

Nancy is Town due to wildly obvious meta.

Misty is not scum, that claim and D3 play make sense for Town.

Flavor Leaf is Town due to numerous instances of Townish play, a highly believable claim, and multiple instances of play which would be anti-wincon with no upside as scum.

Two scum in {Norwegian, Ramcius, TSQ}. I have been TRing both of the latter two, but I am not so hidebound that I can't admit I'm wrong when it's in my face.

I want Norwegian's blood today. That will let us sort the remaining candidates.

GG

[Pine]

My gut says Shea, Nancy. There's a grownup on the scumteam, and I've been getting Townier vibes from Ramcius. I'm not certain, though.

[Pine]

Not gonna lie, Jailkeeper is the exact role that I thought would make sense for scum to have here, but i still like Pine

JK makes sense on

every

scumteam. It's the ideal scum role. It's been an absolute pleasure to turn it around on scum, even if it's been 100% ineffective so far.

[Pine]

My gut says Shea, Nancy. There's a grownup on the scumteam, and I've been getting Townier vibes from Ramcius. I'm not certain, though.

Yeah also he hard opposed Akarin as a wagon, so he definitely gets townpoints for that. Can’t you jk Akarin and FL doc Misty? I’m just a useless vt so I don’t mind being the NK.

I could, but that's not what I'm going to do.

[Pine]

I guess my paranoia is that we’re extremely tpr heavy based off of claims. 2 town Joats, I town 1 shot vig, I town venge.

Ico flipped vt. I’m vt and I think you and Ram also claimed vt. I forget what Norwee claimed?

I guess my paranoia is that we’re extremely tpr heavy based off of claims. 2 town Joats, I town 1 shot vig, I town venge.

Ico flipped vt. I’m vt and I think you and Ram also claimed vt. I forget what Norwee claimed?

This is my problem with pine's claim.

There is no other Town protective role, while the JOATs served as a distributed investigative role. Come on, people. Think.

[Pine]

Whoa what the fuck

I haven’t been in the thread since last night but Dannflor just @ed me in a panic

Flavor Leaf

Unvote yourself this instant. When I get home I’m going to catch up and help you solve. Dann is also writing something up for me to paraphrase

Stop throwing you beautiful pile of moron

[Pine]

like scum know how obviously town i am, they're just preying on the naivety of Akarin and Nancy

I don’t even need to read the thread for that “high level” take

[Pine]

Is part of the fun for you to see how many people you can get annoyed enough that they rage vote?

I’m not “rage” voting, I’m genuinely hurt and I honestly do think it’s really shitty of him to not want to play with the one person who has hard defended him - against my teammates’ (Math and Oka)’s reads and arguing with the rest of the playerlist. Like how do I even fucking deserve that from him after all that?

This is a pretty petulant position.

These kind of emotion-driven choices are a huge part of what’s holding back your otherwise strong potential

[Pine]

I don't want to play another game with FL in it for as long as i live as soon as this is over.
Every day becomes this drama of endless posting and shitty takes that get forced down ones throat.

Didn’t I tell you to shut the actual fuck up? You’ve been the primary driver of toxicity in this game. Bemoaning it now can’t possibly be anything but disingenuous.

[Pine]

Like it’s done.

I’m just better.

Do what you will with this game, I’ve proved it to myself, i absolutely do not care anymore.

I am the greatest


And this fuck Norwegian is acting like Norwegian/Status isn’t my main thing I’ve been.

I actively said Norwegian/Ramcius and Norwegian/Status


THIS IS FUCKING WHY I AM FUCKING PISSED WITH THIS GAME BECAUSE FUCKING NAIVE PEOPLE CANT SEE FUCKING ANYTHING

100% endorsed

[Pine]

VOTE: NorwegianBoy

[Pine]

Whoa what the fuck

I haven’t been in the thread since last night but Dannflor just @ed me in a panic

Flavor Leaf

Unvote yourself this instant. When I get home I’m going to catch up and help you solve.

Dann is also writing something up for me to paraphrase

Stop throwing you beautiful pile of moron

What happened with this?

Life happened. A friend of mine fell and hit her head last night and a bunch of stuff kind of became low priority. Thanks for reminding me.

[Pine]

VOTE: Pine

E -1

Mathblade endorsed this.

Ugh. Give me a few hours to blow the game open and slam dunk the {Norwegian/Shea} case, then you kids do what you want.

[Pine]

I’m getting nasty looks at the family dinner table as it is

[Pine]

A) I apologize for the aspersions on your psychology. I do not understand much of what you do or why you do it, and it is easy and cheap to slap a derogatory label on it rather than try to solve it. That’s not fair or kind and I will refrain.
B) That said, your insistence that others are able to have instant and reliable meta tells on you is absolute horseshit. It always has been and continues to be. Your ongoing inability to understand why people suspect you in a game revolving around deception represents a stunning lack of self-awareness that I’d hoped you’d outgrown
C) You are wildly overestimating most teams’ attention to their teammates’ games.
D) And also their willingness to dictate their teammates’ reads
E) And further the willingness of most players to take their teammates reads as gospel
F) These flaws in your understanding of how other people process reads you believe to be obvious contributes heavily to the aforementioned self-awareness issue
G) All that said, it also contributes to my Townread of you. Given the stakes of this game, I am willing to shelve my frustration and work with you until either you are killed to reduce free chaos in the playerset or I am killed as a threat.
H) The quoting issue was in regards to the time we have until deadline, nothing to do with TGP, whom I haven’t managed to sort yet.
I) I am also having difficulty sorting Shea

like honestly, i dont give a fuck at this point.

if you think i'm scum here, y'all hopeless

Couldn't agree more.

VOTE: Norwegian

My team's been helping out with reads while I flounder a bit catching up. Dannflor's money is on a Norwegian/Akarin/TGP scumteam, though I'm not sold on TGP. Jingle largely agrees though we talked about tracking the night kill, trying to figure out who would have shot BB. He's not an obvious shot, and that can really say a lot. It was a process of elimination, but we thought the person with the best combination of experience, perceived threat level, and teammates might be Mistyx.

I'm feeling pretty good about those reads. {Norwegian, Akarin} and one of {TGP, Mistyx} seems most likely.

I'll support that with Townreads -

Flavor Leaf and Nancy continue to be rock solid TRs for me.

Shea is playing recklessly and punishing people who aren't as invested in the game. I fucking hate that, and it's generally anti-Town, but the vigor of it suggests he's pursuing an aggressive attempt to sort. If he were flippant and actually

pursued

his shitty vendettas, it might be a scum veneer. He's not - he drops them as soon as he has a real lead. I can respect that.

Ramcius and Iconeum are harder to read, but playing generally to a pro-Town agenda.

DEB I haven't got a clue on.

@Shea because you’ve been hyper aggressive about your generally-shitty reads.

My gut says Shea, Nancy. There's a grownup on the scumteam, and I've been getting Townier vibes from Ramcius. I'm not certain, though.

VOTE: Pine

E -1

Mathblade endorsed this.

Ugh. Give me a few hours to blow the game open and slam dunk the {Norwegian/Shea} case, then you kids do what you want.

I haven't tracked the last few hours, but Ari finally started taking a look at the game and says massclaim is done.

I am a Asta, a Town Jailkeeper. Aside from FL's 1-shot Doc, I am the only protective role in the game.

I jailed Flavor Leaf Night One to protect him, which is what led to this exchange:

I'm an investigative with a soft clear on status.

Fuck...you just...had to do this just as I was defending you again.

Explain, please.

im lying

Okay never mind. Carry on.

I jailed Iconeum N2, when he was apparently killed by Strongman DEB.

Jailkeeper in the hands of Town is correctly used as a defensive role, but if we can elim scum today, it can shift sharply into a pseudo-investigative role. I will change posture from protecting Townies to roleblocking scum suspects, which should produce effective investigative results.

My team and I have been working on this, and we believe we nearly have a mathematical solution.

Akarin is Town due to role. Nice shot, I apologize for ever doubting you.

Nancy is Town due to wildly obvious meta.

Misty is not scum, that claim and D3 play make sense for Town.

Flavor Leaf is Town due to numerous instances of Townish play, a highly believable claim, and multiple instances of play which would be anti-wincon with no upside as scum.

Two scum in {Norwegian, Ramcius, TSQ}. I have been TRing both of the latter two, but I am not so hidebound that I can't admit I'm wrong when it's in my face.

I want Norwegian's blood today. That will let us sort the remaining candidates.

GG

All of the times I've been concerned about Shea.

I'm literally never in a million years making a decision in a mafia game based off of

Titus VCA which in my opinion has never been used to draw correct conclusions in the history of ever

.

I respect Titus's opinion

, but that kind of vagueness is pinging my scumdar hard.

ok

There’s a difference between the general and the specific. I generally enjoy and trust Town!Titus’s opinions, but when she’s vague and incomprehensible, it’s a big sign she doesn’t believe what she’s saying.

Not a fan of being taken so blatantly out of context.

you have absolute braindead takes on this game, you cut out multiple possibilities without explanation, you're pushing what I find to be absolute hot garbage takes not on me, dude, you just still got your newbie showing if you're town, and are just pigheaded scum if scum, which is fine, do what you want

You know this is a good scumcase on Norwee, right? Come on in to the wagon, the water’s fine

A short timeline of what happened in the TGP hood:

-he invites me, and opens with a post that basicly says that he hooded me because i'm not a lurker and sorteable. He also confirmed his action.
-i spammed quite a bit of my thoughts, some of which were aimed at baiting a reaction and weren't entirely truthfull. I overstated my scumread on you (but still, i had every intention of poking you today)
-i made a remark of how terrible of an idea it would be to push you today in the current gamestate and that it would result in a total shitfest (who could've imagined that lol)

-TGP basicly agreed with my take on you, that pushing you today is a bad idea but that he would also be interested in poking you to get some AI content out of you. He suggested a D3 join-push on you.

In short, when the environment seemed to turn 'ripe' for a push on you, he came into the main thread and just joined the push on you. No discussing it in our hood, no agreements, no shared thoughts.

That felt incredibly opportunistic to me.

I like this post a LOT for Town!Ico, which makes me a lot more comfortable with my weak TR on him at day start. I could also sign on to a TGP elim, this is a good case.

Norwegian/TGP/Status could be a team, but Status would have probably shaded me more if that were the case, but he seemed to try to brush Norwegian off the TvT, maybe because he thinks that they would lose, but that's an option I'm looking into right now

I don’t buy Shea as scum here. I also don’t think he’d put up with the shenanigans we’ve seen from that team.

Norwegian/TGP/Status could be a team, but Status would have probably shaded me more if that were the case, but he seemed to try to brush Norwegian off the TvT, maybe because he thinks that they would lose, but that's an option I'm looking into right now

TSQ is town based on the fact that he got so upset that nobody was listening to his reads and push - I don't think that was faked

Exactly. His anger at me and especially his, “What am I doing here, I need to cut ties,” post were hard Town. It’s what got me to check myself and apologize. He has substantially contributed to the health of the gamestate when wallowing in the mud would have been fine. It’s a Town motive.

Literally the only "Shea is probably Town" post I could find.

If you're going to come at me for inconsistency, make sure I've been inconstant first.

[Pine]

Also, pretty much all of those "Shea is suspicious" posts came well before this push against me.

I am home, and while I feel like death warmed over, it's time to devote time to this game.

[Pine]

Preamble:

Nancy

Akarin

You two need to stop playing like butthurt kids who want a seat at the grownups table and are going to throw a fit until you get it. Get a grip, look at

evidence

, and rationally question things instead of letting your whims drive you.

That's how you

get

a seat at the grownups table.

Flavor Leaf

No notes. Keep up the good work

Ramcius

That bit about the grownups table? You're on your way to a seat. Good on ya.

Norwegian

Piss off, you're scum.

Shea

GG, but also scum. That angry tension and the genuinely-hurt "I'm done with this" thing had me waffling for a bit, but you never really sold the performance. You've gotta back that sort of thing up with meaningful pro-Town actions. You should have bussed the shit out of Norwegian. You'd have stood a serious shot at going the distance solo this game.

[Pine]

Paraphrased from Dannflor:

Dear Mini Theme,

I hadn't really been following, but when Pine started floundering I dived in. I now have strong opinions.

First, Nancy and Flavor - you are both Town, and the petulant TvT you're doing is trashing this game. Knock it off.

Nancy is Town. First, this is precisely her Town meta. That whole freaking out over being misread thing is classic her, and my research shows she sucks at faking it as scum. Further, she doesn't even

try

as scum, she's way more forgiving. That's not what's happening here. her scumgame is far more self-aware, and her blatant

lack

of self-awareness here is kind of a dead giveaway. (Editor's note: Creature shed the "Transparent" title, maybe it should go to Nancy for a while.) The only time I've ever misread Nancy was in our first game together, and at this point she's easy. I had some paranoia, but I checked and checked twice. She doesn't pull this a scum. The spats with FL reinforce this.

Flavor Leaf is also Town, incidentally. He mentioned earlier that DEB's buddies weren't likely to TR his absence and stone-throwing. DEB never remains unflipped in this game, and FL knows it. @FL you know who was hard TRing him right from the start? Nancy. As a scumbuddy, Nancy busses DEB here. And yeah, there's a WIFOM argument to be made here, but that's bunk. She can maybe do some WIFOMing stuff, but she's not up to that level yet.

Back to FL. Along with the hard Towntell Pine found earlier for him, his consistent approach to the game has been to solve and sort. Yeah, he's a prick. Yeah, he's a bit of an ass. But that fits with his aggressive means of sifting the game. But he's not quite this

reckless

as scum, and when he is it's far more calculating. Town!FL here has few illusions about survival, he's there to get in, solve, and pass it off to the grownups in the room to prosecute. It's what he does. Scum!FL has no motive to do a lot of the things he's done, provoking the people he has. There's just no

benefit

to it. He's not afraid to do so if there's gain, but there isn't here. He's just being a dick. But he's OUR dick.

Dann had a few minor observations about other players (including calling Shea out as a deepwolf long before I was convinced of it), but his thoughts focused most strongly on the Nancy vs FL issue and Norwegian. To continue.

HOW IS NORWEGIAN STILL ALIVE? He's so fucking scummy I'm starting to think he's intentionally trying to invoke the "too scummy to be scum" trope to avoid suspicion. He's been intentionally manipulating the game from the very start, pushing Town players into fighting with one another, then stepping back to stoke the carnage. Absolutely nothing he's done this game has been geared towards solving, it's all been tearing people down and tilting them at one another. "Frankly, it's gross and manipulative."

(Editor's note: That last sentence in quotes is a direct quote, everything else is heavily reworded to comply with the rules. Mods, if you want to whack me for five words, that's your prerogative.)

It's a long and abusive slog, but reread FL vs Norwegian in paired ISO. Think about what Norwegian's posts are doing. He's

goading

FL. I had Pine quote two posts from him earlier in the game, and they

remain

the scumfuckiest thing in the game. Here they are again:

titus says that Norwee and FL should never be voted unless Akarin flips town

i'm inclined to agree

I don't think this is a super bad take though, even if anyone dislikes VCA by principle.
If Akarin is town then it proves both me and FL are most likely in a SvT, and if Akarin is scum then maybe this just is a TvT and scum are in the inactive fucks or cheering our TvT on.

I’m not changing my vote until either me/FL is flipped or FL admits he is wrong on me.
I’m not going to become the elimination in ElO because of FL’s garbage play.
If FL agrees on voting someone else like Akarin then i’ll consider voting there as well. Otherwise, no.

Sweet jebas these are scummy posts

Credit @Dannflor

Everything about Norwegian's ISO is designed to engineer a scenario which is most beneficial to himself personally, while smearing others, particularly threats, with mud. He's trying to paint himself as the logical and Towny one, where he's anything but. He breathes toxicity and and tars up the game with nonsense, dragging the biggest threats into the quicksand of AtE and strawman attacks. Let's look at 3781 for a sec, where he's setting up this exact scenario, transparently trying to push an agenda rather than a solve. He's not considering other possibilities. He's stoking others' paranoia to keep the Town off balance until it drives home a lazy elimination. That's how we got a Zor elim, it's how we got a TGP elim. And all the while, he sits back and keeps poking. But again in 3781...LOOK AT WHAT HE'S DOING - he's demonstrating uncanny certainty and an impossible degree of confidence for a Town player. No Town player on D3 has the game solved this firmly. He has

presumptions

of Town on all of {misty, ND, shea, Akarin, Ramcius} that are so rock solid he's not trying to question them. He's only framing his arguments to this crowd.

TL;DR - Norwegian's game has been one of manipulation and provocation. He goads people into doing his dirty work for him, steeps the game in toxicity, and has crafted a narrative where he's the Town component of not one but two TvS pairs, in order to discard all outward suspicion of others and buddy up to them.

Whew, that was lengthy.

[Pine]

Did someone put out a memo in the scum PT that insulting me is a good way to manipulate me or something?

Take your head out of your ass. THIS ISN'T ABOUT YOU.

Insulting you isn't a good way to manipulate you, or get you to change your mind, showing you disdain SHOULDN'T AFFECT YOUR JUDGMENT

THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT

GROW

THE

FUCK

UP

[Pine]

Finally, a note from Jingle expressing disbelief at the amateurish setup spec in this game:

Wait, they're doubting you as a full protective?

Scum had a Strongman. Scum never have a Strongman to counter scattered 1-shots. They only have a Strongman to counter a full protective.

End of story. SMH

[Pine]

Full Jailkeeper should hard clear me here, children. No one else has anything that makes sense to balance the Strongman.

[Pine]

Finally, a note from Jingle expressing disbelief at the amateurish setup spec in this game:

Wait, they're doubting you as a full protective?

Scum had a Strongman. Scum never have a Strongman to counter scattered 1-shots. They only have a Strongman to counter a full protective.

End of story. SMH

they literally did last year

Disbelieve. Receipts.

[Pine]

Finally, a note from Jingle expressing disbelief at the amateurish setup spec in this game:

Wait, they're doubting you as a full protective?

Scum had a Strongman. Scum never have a Strongman to counter scattered 1-shots. They only have a Strongman to counter a full protective.

End of story. SMH

they literally did last year

Disbelieve. Receipts.

viewtopic.php?f=150&t=81719

protectives were jjh (2-shot alien), klick (2-shot doc), hito (JOAT with bp giver)

And that's a

lot

more protection than we've seen here.

Are you listening to yourself?

[Pine]

we have two claimed doc/commuters

if FL's claim is true that on its own justifies the strongman on its own, right?

We have 1-shot doc and 1-shot self-commute. That's not even in the same league as what last year's game have.

Further, Jailkeeper is also negative utility, in that I also roleblock the people I protect.

This is

exactly

how you balance that.

[Pine]

we have two claimed doc/commuters

if FL's claim is true that on its own justifies the strongman on its own, right?

We have 1-shot doc and 1-shot self-commute. That's not even in the same league as what last year's game have.

Further, Jailkeeper is also negative utility, in that I also roleblock the people I protect.

This is

exactly

how you balance that.

if you're saying it's just the 1, do you not believe FL's claim?

I don't know where you get that from?!

FL's claim is solid.

[Pine]

Oh

Hmm

BBMolla's flip

I had straight-up forgotten that.

No. 2 Doc, 2 Commute doesn't change things. Commute is not a true protective, it only isolates the self. It does not justify the strongman.

[Pine]

okay here let's take it from the top down

akarin is essentially mech clear

i think nancy is obvtown, by tone, by meta, by approach, etc etc

i think norwee is towny from tone/approach stuff, and there's been a couple posts i've seen from him that are just "yes this person is just town"

i think TSQ had a really good d1 but has dropped off since then

i don't think ram was towny at any point really and titus wants me to push him though im not sure why on the latter

i think FL has been very FL this game and like, i kind of want to take what he said about being scum with DEB at face value, plus i think DEB would be more motivated to play scum with him

pine is a contentious slot that i do not have a strong read on but i think his approach to today has been kind of pockety to FL specifically which is like

??? why fl only, is it to try to draw associations after flip?

WHAT has Norwegian done that is tonally Towny? Was it when he stoked arguments? Strawmanned people? Maybe when it was when he used AtE to avoid suspicion?

I picked up on a Flavor Leaf Towntell on DAY ONE. I've been extremely solid on that read virtually the whole game. In what universe do two scum players with reputations like ours draw associatives that are that reinforced?

[Pine]

I think FL/Pine has 1 scum, leaning towards Pine

I think Norwee/TSQ/Ram has the other, Ram > TSQ > Norwee being my order from least to most towny

Citation needed on Norwegian!Town

[Pine]

WHAT has Norwegian done that is tonally Towny? Was it when he stoked arguments? Strawmanned people? Maybe when it was when he used AtE to avoid suspicion?

approximately half this game has done this sort of stuff

so.

Even if true (it is not) you're just dismissing scummy behavior, not providing Towny behavior.

[Pine]

Sigh

Dannflor thinks I'm about to die and is insistent that I put out there a theory he and Jingle have been kicking around that it's Shea/Ramcius.

They're wrong.

[Pine]

now im expecting the question, "mist, are you even playing the same game as us"

the answer is probably not! i have ignored all the things that i do not want to see which is like 60% of this game

it is not productive to solving but this game has been very heated and i do not read through that well

Then I'm afraid you need to grow up as well. Ignoring 60% of the game and basing your reads on the polite parts is a great way to get biased and incomplete reads.

[Pine]

That’s...no. Hmmm. That’s a good point. I’m not sure you’re right but you’re not wrong.

[Pine]

worth noting that ico had norwee and TSQ as hard town

so that's probably not the team because they kill like, nancy over ico

You're going to need to cite this, because that is not what I'm getting from his D2 ISO

[Pine]

^Incidentally, this is the kind of doubt and investigation we have never seen out of Norwee this game.

[Pine]

Evidentiary reads > feelings

Every day

[Pine]

there's a potential world where scum!norwee has me pocketed, and scum!TGP hooded me and are using me to kill off FL

but then I would expect scum!TGP to be more active towards that in the hood, which isn't the case

Fuck, okay, I missed that.

Ignore the snark in my prior posts, I need to process this.

[Pine]

And when have you ever known me to kill someone who was openly suspicious of me? That's not my style.

[Pine]

all of norwee/Pine/FL are wasting their votes currently

we aren't yeeting in Norwee/Pine rn

TGP and DEB... a vote at this stage of the game would go a long way ya know

Also this was his last post so...

Ya know

Keep being scum, I guess

[Pine]

Dann's in my ear saying this points to Ramcius scum, which I'm still hesitant about, because that implies Norwegian Town. And for that to be true, Norwegian would have to be the hands-down most counter-productive and destructive Town player I've seen in years.

[Pine]

i'm not (helping to) kill today:

Nancy/TSQ/Norwee

pending stuff that needs adressing, i may or may not wanna kill:

TGP
FL

slots that I would have no problem yeeting today:

Pine/Deb/Akarin/Ramc (these are in order or preference)

Dann's rationale is that we can assume that TGP/FL/Pine/Akarin are all Town, which means the only one on his list who he's threatening is Ramcius, while impeding a Norwegian elim.

[Pine]

You've said I'm town the literal whole game, strongly at several points, but now I'm scum because...you still haven't given any reasons. You've just attacked norwee and suggested I'm norwees buddy with no rationale.

This corresponds to me finding your claim dubious and literally no other shift. You can keep shading me, but you haven't given a single reason why I'm scum that I even need to argue against and given that I think you're scum I'm not really inclined to engage you much more than I am here.

No, I haven't. I did an entire quote wall disproving this assertion.

[Pine]

Depends who you ask, depends on whether commute is ruled to protect people from actions or cause them to fail to target.

If I’m reading Penguin’s rules right, I don’t think he answers those questions.

[Pine]

@mod is flavour actually relevant to this game?

I will not answer this question. Also, please see my following Misc Rule #2:

Questions or concerns should be messaged privately to the game moderator. Do not post these in the game thread.

Yeah, he’s not going to say

[Pine]

I think FL/Pine has 1 scum, leaning towards Pine

I think Norwee/TSQ/Ram has the other, Ram > TSQ > Norwee being my order from least to most towny

From Jingle - do me a favor and buddy hunt out from this. Follow your train of logic. Who are the buddies?

Scum can’t win if a kill gets saved, and FL/Pine can’t be the team.

So hunt further on from that. I’d do it, but you’re justifiably suspicious.

I’m willing to bet that you’re going to find that your T+S theory doesn’t add up.

[Pine]

Nancy Misty are partly to blame for the toxicity in this game right now because they are enabling FL and Pine’s behaviour by not voting.

This is the most toxic post all game.

This is actual emotional blackmail.

[Pine]

Dannflor, Flavor Leaf, Mistyx, and I all independently disprove the solve he’s desperately trying to shove down this game’s throat, and his response is “You guys are being toxic by thinking for yourselves and not doing what I’m telling you to do.”

[Pine]

Norwee, simple question - why scum have 1-shot strongman, if town has only 1 JOAT with doc and commute?

Ding

[Pine]

And it never being FL/Pine blows a lot of attendant bullshit out of the water

[Pine]

@Mistyx Ramcius is Town

His actions in the last 24 hours or so scream it

[Pine]

Spoiler:

Votecount 2.13

Akarin(4)

~ thestatusquo(73), Mistyx(65), Nancy Drew 39(197), Iconeum(186)

NorwegianboyEE(3)

~ Flavor Leaf(325), Ramcius(58), Pine(52)

Flavor Leaf(1)

~ NorwegianboyEE(217)


Not Voting (3): TheGoldenParadox(13), Dr Easy Bake(10), Akarin(12)


Day 2 deadline is in (expired on 2021-02-12 12:40:00)

Mod Notes

• Iconeum on weekend v/la

Votecount 2.14

TheGoldenParadox(3)

~ Nancy Drew 39(257), Akarin(49), Ramcius(63)

Akarin(3)

~ thestatusquo(88), Mistyx(68), Iconeum(186)

NorwegianboyEE(2)

~ Flavor Leaf(407), Pine(52)

Pine(1)

~ NorwegianboyEE(277)


Not Voting (2): TheGoldenParadox(13), Dr Easy Bake(12)


Day 2 deadline is in (expired on 2021-02-12 12:40:00)

Mod Notes

• Iconeum on weekend v/la
  
• Prodding TheGoldenParadox

Votecount 2.17 - Final

TheGoldenParadox(6)

~ Nancy Drew 39(286), Akarin(49), Ramcius(70), Iconeum(223), Mistyx(71), NorwegianboyEE(318)

-- HAMMER

NorwegianboyEE(2)

~ Flavor Leaf(420), Pine(56)

Flavor Leaf(1)

~ TheGoldenParadox(17)

Akarin(1)

~ thestatusquo(90)


Not Voting (1): Dr Easy Bake(12)


Day 2 deadline is in (expired on 2021-02-12 12:40:00)

Mod Notes

• That's it for Day 2!

okay i got some from titus about yesterday's VCA

she thinks DEB not voting is indicative of the wagons being TvT, and thinks scum are probably sheeping there

and thinks that Ram following nancy fills that idea

Tell her to actually read the game before coming with ridiculous VCA theories, me sheeping Nancy on TGP make me laugh really hard

you jumped on the wagon to

prove that norwee was scum if TGP flipped red?

that seems like scummy following to me tbh

Norwee is a proxy for jjh to tell TGP is town, fails to provide any real argument as to why it's so and we have Ico's suspicion due to hood, Akarin and Nancy votes TGP, after some discussion with Norwee and game stalling I trry toi pursue idea of scum Norwee defending scum TGP and vote there. Now I might see you as susp too, but your slot is sortable at any time, so it can be skipped. Norwee hammers after some posturing, but this doesn't rouse any suspicion? He was against TGP flip, but then he changes his mind without much convincing

Well, Mistyx, for starters this. Ramcius is actively using logic to parse and solve. I'll find some more quotes that don't come from scum!Ram

[Pine]

I have a question, do strongman go through commute?

Norwee, simple question - why scum have 1-shot strongman, if town has only 1 JOAT with doc and commute?

These were the ones which made Jingle yell at me in all-caps that he was Town.

There's no scum upside to exploring this issue. He's solving the game through the setup. Scum either sticks their fingers in their ears and goes LALALALA KILL THE STRONG PR (like Norwee) or ignores the topic and tries to get the kill without engaging it (like Shea)

Scum does not poke holes in the setup argument against me

[Pine]

You realize I don't care whether you believe what's pretty obvious, I care about prosecuting my solve

I'm personally expendable. You being in the pocket of scum isn't.

[Pine]

We can afford one (1) mis-elim right now, unless FL or I get a save. We can't afford to dick around pursuing people like Ramcius and Flavor Leaf. We need to flip scum.

You don't want to flip Norwee right now?

Fine.

I don't want to flip Ramcius.

I will compromise on Shea.

VOTE: thestatusquo

[Pine]

Uh, no.

That would roleblock a Doc shot.

My jail is best used offensively, to roleblock a suspect.

[Pine]

Uh, no.

That would roleblock a Doc shot.

My jail is best used offensively, to roleblock a suspect.

FL is my lead suspect in those worlds (well I guess not scum norwee but the others)

He isn't mine, and you don't get to dictate my role usage.

Further, jailing someone and having a kill still go through provides a mechanical clear on that person.

I will not be jailing FL. I haven't decided who I will be, but he's the only one I'm definitely not going to jail.

[Pine]

Norwee, simple question - why scum have 1-shot strongman, if town has only 1 JOAT with doc and commute?

It doesn’t matter if scum has 1-shot strongman. I care about how the setup only includes roles that are gated by number of shots.

Translation: I am not thinking critically about the setup, because I don't have to. I am the informed minority AKA scum.

[Pine]

Uh, no.

That would roleblock a Doc shot.

My jail is best used offensively, to roleblock a suspect.

FL is my lead suspect in those worlds (well I guess not scum norwee but the others)

He isn't mine, and you don't get to dictate my role usage.

Further, jailing someone and having a kill still go through provides a mechanical clear on that person.

I will not be jailing FL. I haven't decided who I will be, but he's the only one I'm definitely not going to jail.

Okay

Then establish who you are going to jail before day ends so we get the clear if you die

There's merit to that, but there's also the strong likelihood that scum have a roleblock or similar power. I'll think on it.

[Pine]

im sorry, i just feel a lot of scum energy coming from Norwegian guys, and that also helps my Pine town read.

His Norwegian case, or Dannfloor's really, is far superior to mine, im not the case maker, i go off feeling people's auras and actions

Speaking of, when is he planning to post that?

Paraphrased from Dannflor:

Dear Mini Theme,

I hadn't really been following, but when Pine started floundering I dived in. I now have strong opinions.

First, Nancy and Flavor - you are both Town, and the petulant TvT you're doing is trashing this game. Knock it off.

Nancy is Town. First, this is precisely her Town meta. That whole freaking out over being misread thing is classic her, and my research shows she sucks at faking it as scum. Further, she doesn't even

try

as scum, she's way more forgiving. That's not what's happening here. her scumgame is far more self-aware, and her blatant

lack

of self-awareness here is kind of a dead giveaway. (Editor's note: Creature shed the "Transparent" title, maybe it should go to Nancy for a while.) The only time I've ever misread Nancy was in our first game together, and at this point she's easy. I had some paranoia, but I checked and checked twice. She doesn't pull this a scum. The spats with FL reinforce this.

Flavor Leaf is also Town, incidentally. He mentioned earlier that DEB's buddies weren't likely to TR his absence and stone-throwing. DEB never remains unflipped in this game, and FL knows it. @FL you know who was hard TRing him right from the start? Nancy. As a scumbuddy, Nancy busses DEB here. And yeah, there's a WIFOM argument to be made here, but that's bunk. She can maybe do some WIFOMing stuff, but she's not up to that level yet.

Back to FL. Along with the hard Towntell Pine found earlier for him, his consistent approach to the game has been to solve and sort. Yeah, he's a prick. Yeah, he's a bit of an ass. But that fits with his aggressive means of sifting the game. But he's not quite this

reckless

as scum, and when he is it's far more calculating. Town!FL here has few illusions about survival, he's there to get in, solve, and pass it off to the grownups in the room to prosecute. It's what he does. Scum!FL has no motive to do a lot of the things he's done, provoking the people he has. There's just no

benefit

to it. He's not afraid to do so if there's gain, but there isn't here. He's just being a dick. But he's OUR dick.

Dann had a few minor observations about other players (including calling Shea out as a deepwolf long before I was convinced of it), but his thoughts focused most strongly on the Nancy vs FL issue and Norwegian. To continue.

HOW IS NORWEGIAN STILL ALIVE? He's so fucking scummy I'm starting to think he's intentionally trying to invoke the "too scummy to be scum" trope to avoid suspicion. He's been intentionally manipulating the game from the very start, pushing Town players into fighting with one another, then stepping back to stoke the carnage. Absolutely nothing he's done this game has been geared towards solving, it's all been tearing people down and tilting them at one another. "Frankly, it's gross and manipulative."

(Editor's note: That last sentence in quotes is a direct quote, everything else is heavily reworded to comply with the rules. Mods, if you want to whack me for five words, that's your prerogative.)

It's a long and abusive slog, but reread FL vs Norwegian in paired ISO. Think about what Norwegian's posts are doing. He's

goading

FL. I had Pine quote two posts from him earlier in the game, and they

remain

the scumfuckiest thing in the game. Here they are again:

titus says that Norwee and FL should never be voted unless Akarin flips town

i'm inclined to agree

I don't think this is a super bad take though, even if anyone dislikes VCA by principle.
If Akarin is town then it proves both me and FL are most likely in a SvT, and if Akarin is scum then maybe this just is a TvT and scum are in the inactive fucks or cheering our TvT on.

I’m not changing my vote until either me/FL is flipped or FL admits he is wrong on me.
I’m not going to become the elimination in ElO because of FL’s garbage play.
If FL agrees on voting someone else like Akarin then i’ll consider voting there as well. Otherwise, no.

Sweet jebas these are scummy posts

Credit @Dannflor

Everything about Norwegian's ISO is designed to engineer a scenario which is most beneficial to himself personally, while smearing others, particularly threats, with mud. He's trying to paint himself as the logical and Towny one, where he's anything but. He breathes toxicity and and tars up the game with nonsense, dragging the biggest threats into the quicksand of AtE and strawman attacks. Let's look at 3781 for a sec, where he's setting up this exact scenario, transparently trying to push an agenda rather than a solve. He's not considering other possibilities. He's stoking others' paranoia to keep the Town off balance until it drives home a lazy elimination. That's how we got a Zor elim, it's how we got a TGP elim. And all the while, he sits back and keeps poking. But again in 3781...LOOK AT WHAT HE'S DOING - he's demonstrating uncanny certainty and an impossible degree of confidence for a Town player. No Town player on D3 has the game solved this firmly. He has

presumptions

of Town on all of {misty, ND, shea, Akarin, Ramcius} that are so rock solid he's not trying to question them. He's only framing his arguments to this crowd.

TL;DR - Norwegian's game has been one of manipulation and provocation. He goads people into doing his dirty work for him, steeps the game in toxicity, and has crafted a narrative where he's the Town component of not one but two TvS pairs, in order to discard all outward suspicion of others and buddy up to them.

Whew, that was lengthy.

[Pine]

i'm not (helping to) kill today:

Nancy/TSQ/Norwee

pending stuff that needs adressing, i may or may not wanna kill:

TGP
FL

slots that I would have no problem yeeting today:

Pine/Deb/Akarin/Ramc (these are in order or preference)

Dann's rationale is that we can assume that TGP/FL/Pine/Akarin are all Town, which means the only one on his list who he's threatening is Ramcius, while impeding a Norwegian elim.

This NKA was the core of their reasoning, but all of us agree that it is stale and not as strong as the Towncase on Ramcius in light of recent Towntells from Ram.

[Pine]

Nancy Misty are partly to blame for the toxicity in this game right now because they are enabling FL and Pine’s behaviour by not voting.

Are you fucking kidding me with this?

Yeah, in a scummy game, that's the scummiest by a good margin. It's emotional blackmail.

[Pine]

No no no.

No.

You're assuming stupidity when you should be seeing malice.

Norwee is

not

that dumb, and you never see that coming from a Town slot.

[Pine]

Nancy, can you talk to me about your reads? I've been a bit in and out this game, and I'm having trouble tracking where you're at now.

[Pine]

I have a question, do strongman go through commute?

Norwee, simple question - why scum have 1-shot strongman, if town has only 1 JOAT with doc and commute?

These were the ones which made Jingle yell at me in all-caps that he was Town.

There's no scum upside to exploring this issue. He's solving the game through the setup. Scum either sticks their fingers in their ears and goes LALALALA KILL THE STRONG PR (like Norwee) or ignores the topic and tries to get the kill without engaging it (like Shea)

Scum does not poke holes in the setup argument against me

So did I misunderstand you then? Jingle now thinks Ram is town? Dann too?

That is correct. They were tossing Ramcius back and forth due to the NKA (which I've posted twice now) but he Towntelled pretty hard last night.

[Pine]

You may have been clear, but there's 171 pages and a lot of back and forth. Enlighten me.

[Pine]

FL, Dann also asked you to stop antagonizing Nancy. I'm trying to respect that request, please do the same.

[Pine]

Fine



Let's all put down our guns and try to solve this rationally. We will have a discussion post-game, but right now we're on the knife's edge of losing this.

[Pine]

Scum don’t come after you ever in this game, Nancy

[Pine]

For the record, I'm not agreeing to anyone trying to dictate who I protect/block. It's a non-starter for me, and it is in every game I play regardless of alignment. I may or may not tell you, but no one dictates my action. Give a suggestion if you like, but understand that I will take it under advisement only.

[Pine]

Nancy - Jingle wants me to tell you the Shea scumread is based on PoE and setup analysis. Further, his behavior over time matches the assessment, the way he ducks in and out, managing the game to his benefit

[Pine]

Nancy - Jingle wants me to tell you the Shea scumread is based on PoE and setup analysis. Further, his behavior over time matches the assessment, the way he ducks in and out, managing the game to his benefit

He really didn’t have much to do with the TGP flip though.

I didn’t say he did. At the time, Shea was beating the drum against Akarin. That stalled out, and Norwegian pushed for TGP while he ducked out and kept his hands clean. They’ve been tag-teaming.

[Pine]

“Too early for VCA” in a 173-page game in D3 had me lol-ing.

DGB, please. Whip out the scumputer and do work.

[Pine]

No rush whatsoever.

Players these days want to demand results immediately, somehow expecting people with jobs, families, and lives to skim 100+ pages of ranting in the span of half an hour and come up with meaningful reads.

We have

nine days

on the clock. Sometimes there’s call to rush, but this ain’t it.

I have every confidence that the scumputer will come to the right conclusion.

[Pine]

I’m just saying there’s

more

than enough data to feed into the matrix.

[Pine]

Unless you’re out of vacuum tubes? Or punch cards? Do you need a new steam boiler, or perhaps a farrier?

[Pine]

Nancy still focusing on the misread of her rather than the salient facts. So Town.

DGB’s scumputer algorithm is based on votes, Nancy, and your tendency to emotionally vote hop all over the place rather than sticking to solid and rational solving is pinging it. It is structurally bad at reading you.

I’m contrast, Shea is an old school player who played the game when VCA was an extremely dangerous tool, exactly because of people like DGB. You’ll notice that FL, Shea, and I are all lowest on DGB’s list? It’s a structural and methodological difference.

[Pine]

Dann has another spicy post, but I’m at work and can’t rewrite it rn

[Pine]

TL;DR - it’s a case on Shea calling out inconsistencies, particularly how his solve is FL/Pine, but spent the last page attacking and discrediting Ramcius

[Pine]

The fuck? He absolutely does. Jingle is my

source

for the mechanical reasons why I'm obvious Town.

Go peddle your lies elsewhere.

[Pine]

With the way the "strongman" flip is worded, it likely does not pierce Commuted players. That leaves only the two 1-shot docs.

Further, it specifically references that it pierces roleblocking. I'm the only claimed Town roleblocking role.

JJH is indeed one of the more highly-regarded setup spec players on MS.net, but your assertions are bunk.

[Pine]

Welcome, Dr Easy Bake! You are Inuyasha, an

Untrod Tripod Underground

member. Your partners are [redacted] and [redacted].

Your Abilities

• Voice of Untrod Tripod
  : During the day phase, you may use this ability to vote to eliminate another player.
  
• Face of Untrod Tripod
  : You, and your partners, share a factional kill each night. You also share a private thread where you may communicate as long as you are alive, located [redacted]
  
• Immense Demonic Power
  : During the night, when you are performing the kill, you may activate this ability. That night, the kill will ignore all
  protections and roleblocking
  abilities. You may do this once during the game.

Your Win Condition

• Save Untrod Tripod
  : You win when all Anime Empire members are dead, and at least one Untrod Tripod Underground member remains alive.

Please confirm by responding to this PM stating your alignment and character name.

The game thread can be found here.

Good luck, have fun, and save Untrod Tripod.

[Pine]

I've been absent a bit because I've been packing for a trip. I'm going to try to get Dannflor's Shea case prepped before we leave.

[Pine]

Welcome, Dr Easy Bake! You are Inuyasha, an

Untrod Tripod Underground

member. Your partners are [redacted] and [redacted].

Your Abilities

• Voice of Untrod Tripod
  : During the day phase, you may use this ability to vote to eliminate another player.
  
• Face of Untrod Tripod
  : You, and your partners, share a factional kill each night. You also share a private thread where you may communicate as long as you are alive, located [redacted]
  
• Immense Demonic Power
  : During the night, when you are performing the kill, you may activate this ability. That night, the kill will ignore all
  protections and roleblocking
  abilities. You may do this once during the game.

Your Win Condition

• Save Untrod Tripod
  : You win when all Anime Empire members are dead, and at least one Untrod Tripod Underground member remains alive.

Please confirm by responding to this PM stating your alignment and character name.

The game thread can be found here.

Good luck, have fun, and save Untrod Tripod.

This role is almost

exactly

designed to provide a "get out of jail free" card against an outed Jailkeeper. Even the wording specifically calls out how Jailing works.

[Pine]

From Dannflor, roughly a day and a half old:

Shea is engaging in gross inconsistency lately. His stated solve, as with Norwegian, is Pine > Flavor Leaf, but he's spent all of his time lately attacking Ramcius. He spent much of Monday accusing Ram of misrepping, giving no reasons for his case, and engaging in bad faith. If his solve is {Pine, Flavor Leaf}, he should have Ramcius as Town, and should be spending his time trying to dissuade Ramcius rather than undermine him. Alternatively, if he's suddenly seeing things differently, he would be changing his tune about his solve. Instead, he is aggressively trying to have his cake and eat it too, clearly setting up a pivot to a {Ramcius, Flavor Leaf} solve when [Pine] flips green. Accusing someone of engaging in bad faith while engaging in it yourself should be a HUGE red flag.

"Your VCA suggests I'm second least likely to scum and you're ignoring it?" is absolute rubbish. You can't use that as a defense when you are ALSO arguing that the VCA is worthless because it suggests Nancy is scummiest and Pine is Towniest. Again, you just can't engage in this kind of cognitive dissonance and expect to be read as Town. Further, VCA is NEVER expected to be the sole reasoning behind something - it should always

inform

a more complex opinion. Nancy is a good example here - she is listed as the scummiest by VCA, but that's clearly hogwash because her Town meta includes exactly the kind of frenetic votehopping that pings VCA. You evaluate VCA in the context you're given, not by itself. Shea is way too experienced to believe what he's saying here.

In other words, Shea is taking exactly the kind of potshots [Pine] noted earlier, posting just to post, and muddying the water. He's trying to avoid taking the hard stance his alleged reads demand because he really wants to coast through this Pine elim, then flip onto Ramcius. Ramcius's arguments are a threat, so he's not trying to sort in good faith, he's just tearing down.

[Pine]

that's how strongman is always written regardless if there's a roleblocker in the setup or not

No - Strongman is

called

Strongman. This was written to be very specific.

I went to the wiki to make this response, and even the wiki calls out commuting as an exception. A Strongman-like role to stop two 1-shot Docs

does not make sense.

[Pine]

What does Jingle think specifically about Pine being the only ungated role in the setup?
And whether there are any implications of this.
And why Jingle hasn't acknowledged this as a weakness of the claim himself

JJH doesn't really see Jingle coming up with that bad point about the strongman referencing roleblocking when that's what the normal strongman role PM looks like.
It's phrased exactly the same way in the previous untrod tripod vs anime game. That's literally just how strongman role PMs look; it doesn't imply anything about the setup.
and Pine should know that and Jingle definitely knows that.

How many times do I have to tell you to shut the actual fuck up?

Asked and answered. Repeatedly.

[Pine]

Pine, telling me to shut the fuck up here is absolutely uncalled for and you can do better than that as a person and as a forum moderator. I am asking that you answer those questions because I do not believe you have answered them, and shutting down discussion in one of the rudest ways possible is just not on. Please answer the questions and do not tell mee to shut the fuck up again. If you feel you have answered the questions, then please quote where you have answered them and I will explain why those answers are not satisfactory, because I have read all your posts and those questions are not answered.

Of course they're already answered. Your whole thing this game has been asking innocuous nonsense questions and then ignoring the answers when they don't align precisely with the narrow intent of your question.

I apologize for the incivility, but the tactics you're choosing to use this game are really tilting me.

What does Jingle think specifically about Pine being the only ungated role in the setup?

Asked and answered. The entire premise of an ungated Jailkeeper as Town's primary protective role is exactly fine.

And whether there are any implications of this.

Asked and answered, I think? We've been talking about the implications for a week now, so if you want something specific, ask it instead of waving your hands around with some vague "AHA" like this.

And why Jingle hasn't acknowledged this as a weakness of the claim himself

Because he can't post in this game. What are you even doing with this?

JJH doesn't really see Jingle coming up with that bad point about the strongman referencing roleblocking when that's what the normal strongman role PM looks like.

No, he didn't, I did.

It's phrased exactly the same way in the previous untrod tripod vs anime game. That's literally just how strongman role PMs look; it doesn't imply anything about the setup.
and Pine should know that and Jingle definitely knows that.

Absolute bullshit. Strongman roles are usually CALLED Strongman roles, and they are described like this.

I'm going to quote a line from that MafiaWiki article you didn't read before trying this attack:

Use and Power

Usually, One-Shot Strongman kills are put into the game to balance a potentially broken combination in the game. It is important not to waste the Strongman kill before something like Follow the Cop starts to take place.

EVEN THE STRATEGY SECTION OF MAFIAWIKI SUGGESTS MY/JINGLE'S POSITION IS CORRECT.

[Pine]

Cool! More personal shit after I apologize, back off, and answer the questions asked.

As I have done repeatedly throughout this game.

[Pine]

Pine is the only ungated role in the setup, this is specifically around how that doesn't seem to fit.
Does this imply that this assumption is false and that scum might have ungated roles, perhaps? Something like that. Because Pine, and from what we can see through Pine, Jingle, is avoiding what we consider to be an absolutely damning point about ungated roles not fitting in the setup. And he was in the previous untrod tripod v anime game, and was the living player who noticed the aesthetic of the setup. It seems really strange that Jingle wouldn't get Pine to acknowledge that being the only ungated role in the setup might make people doubt the claim.
It's a pretty common thing when making a claim that you know is unusual for any reason to preface that. To say, as FL did when claiming a role that had already flipped, "I acknowledge that this might be hard to believe for X reasons BUT this is the role PM that I got". Are we to believe that Jingle not only missed an absolute standout feature of the setup like this but also is refusing to recognise it after we've been repeating it?

U N G A T E D

R O L E S

A R E

F I N E

[Pine]

Why the hell would I claim something incongruous like that when I claimed last and could easily have faked that it was X-shot?

Answer: It’s the truth

[Pine]

I didn’t think FL was a power role until he claimed. Please cite evidence otherwise.

[Pine]

I jailed FL to *protect* him.

When he implied he had a N1 guilty and I demanded an explanation, he read why and came clean immediately.

[Pine]

So what exactly about that is a “FL/Pine pair” again? We blew up each other’s spot accidentally, because we both overplayed a bit. We’re just both pro enough to register hard TRs as a result and drop it immediately.

[Pine]

for what it's worth, I have reason to believe zoraster's claim is real, even if they are scum.

This pings me strongly as Town, and that makes me breathe a huge sigh of relief. I was really worried there weren't any adults in the room.

Okay, I had completely forgotten about that. I’ll grant it is an adequate reason to think FL had a PR.

[Pine]

Look, bottom line here is this: you keep trying to say X or Y doesn’t prove my claim is true, but that’s almost never the objective.

You haven’t proven it’s false, and I’ve provided tons of evidence to demonstrate it plausible and even likely.

You can’t rationally keep pushing your attempt to prove a negative.

[Pine]

You prove a claim false, you don’t prove it true. Your assertions utterly fail to do that.

The best you’ve got is that it’s incongruous to have an ungated role in a game full of X-shots, which is fair. It’s not even remotely conclusive, and mods do it all the time.

It would also be incongruous as a scum role.

And when something is equivalent from scum or Town, it’s probably simply *true*.

Which it IS.

Shea has a better argument, that it could be true but scum.

But then it doesn’t explain why there’s a Strongman. What’s it for? Two 1-shot docs? It’s not worth the effort.

[Pine]

DEB’s flip mechanically demands a strong protective role.

That’s me.

And as much as you’ve tried to discredit Jingle, THAT is his position, and has been from day start.

[Pine]

That’s wildly not the point.

[Pine]

That is like...textbook arguing with a preconceived conclusion in mind

[Pine]

The reason the incongruousness means Pine is scum is because scum might fakeclaim here but town would not.

Surprise!

I’m not.

[Pine]

It is SUPER important for scum to elim me today, because if we elim scum today, I can start hard-clearing Townies or guiltying the last bad guy.

[Pine]

Per Jingle: the idea that “Jingle should know better” than an ungated claim is a Towncase on us, btw. There is no world where we pull last in a mass claim and then decide to push an awkward fakeclaim.

I mean seriously? Jingle is one of the premier mods and setup specs on the site, and I’m one of the top scum players. When do we EVER botch a fakeclaim?

It’s

The

Truth

[Pine]

There's lots of room for speculation but Pine is probably an x-shot blocker for the scum team or some kind of scum JOAT. Absolutely not a full town jailkeeper out of the blue that will break the setup.

It doesn’t break the setup - you had a Strongman

[Pine]

Yeah I’m completely done engaging with you.

I’ll be back when something new is said.

[Pine]

We have 3 doctor type roles in this game. and 1-shot strongman. Give this a thought Nancy, it clearly does not fit and if a claim is fake then Pine's is the odd man out here.

3? Molla, FL. Where’s the 3rd?

Pine's supposed jailkeeper claim.

But we only have two roles, remember? Because I’m either fakeclaiming or scum-oriented. Or is it only one, given that the team is {Pine, FL} and you’ll never consider anything else?

Strongman demands a more robust protective role.

You’re looking at him.

[Pine]

Good morning everyone! That night went by fast...but not as fast as it could have I guess. Do you like my outfit? I'm dressed all formal becuase today is it. The last day.

But, before we get started we should check and see who won't be joining us for this last day of fun.

Spoiler: Night 5 Kill

不破 真広 (Mahiro Fuwa)

Welcome, hitogoroshi! You are 不破 真広 (Mahiro Fuwa), a

MafiaScum Anime Avatar Resistance Fighters (MAARF)

member.

Your Abilities

• MAARF Tactical Response Unit
  : During the day phase, you may use this unit to vote to lynch one player.
  
• Talismans
  : During the night, you must target one player and choose one of the following talismans to grant your target:
  • Bulletproof
    : If successful, your targeted player will become immune to one night kill the following night phase. This talisman wears off once successfully targeted with a killing action or the following night phase ends, and will not work in MyLo or LyLo.
    
  • Loved
    : If successful, your targeted player will require one extra vote to be lynched. This talisman will last until the end of the following day phase, and will not work in MyLo or LyLo.
    
  • Hated
    : If successful, your targeted player will require one less vote to be lynched. This talisman will last until the end of the following day phase, and will not work in MyLo or LyLo.

Your Win Condition

• Make MafiaScum Safe Again
  : You win when all threats to MAARF have been eliminated and there is at least one MAARF member alive.

Please confirm by responding to this PM stating your alignment and character name.

The game thread can be found here.

Good luck, have fun, and save our Anime Avatars.

Too bad...I kinda liked him. Well, it's all resting on you remaining MAARF members. Good luck, and please protect our anime avatars.

Ungated protective.

What more do you want?

[Pine]

That role flip does not mention anything like those limitations.

[Pine]

“Once used a talisman is expended.”

“You can use each of these powers once.”

Night 1

It is now Night 1, which will last for (expired on 2021-01-29 14:34:25). Please submit your night actions prior to this deadline or they will not count.

Spoiler: Night 1 Elimination

Welcome, BBMolla! You are Lupin III, a member of the

Anime Empire

.

Your Abilities

• Voice of the Empire
  : During the day phase, you may use your voice as a member of the Anime Empire to vote to eliminate one player.
  
• Escape Artist!
  : During the night, you may activate your ability and target one player with the below functions:
  • Doctor
    : You may activate your ability and target one player. If successful, this player will be protected from one night kill. You may do this once during the game.
    
  • Follow
    : You may follow your targeted player to find out what action they performed. You may use this function once during the game.
    
  • Commute
    : When activated, you are rendered untargetable by any means for that night phase. You may use this function once during the game.

Your Win Condition

• Destroy Untrod Tripod
  : You win when all threats to the Anime Empire have been eliminated and there is at least one Anime Empire member alive.

Please confirm by responding to this PM stating your alignment and character name.

The game thread can be found here.

Good luck, have fun, and destroy Untrod Tripod.

Compare to this, where there is explicit gating on usage.

[Pine]

Sorry, those first two quotes were examples of text

not

found in last year’s ungated protective role.