Newbie 2093 | New Wave | Postgame

[BigTerp]

Hey hey, it's Mafia time!! Let's see if we can sniff out the scum quickly this game!!

[BigTerp]

Inside jokes ew.
I hope we won't have any jokes this game Big Terp - they can confuse things, which does unfortunately help the mafia.

Hey now!!

[BigTerp]

Good Day,

I will begin by VOTE: ItalionoVoD for the simple, useful reason of "Get 7-UP".

Look forward to playing with you all (and in most cases, again).

What is "Get 7-UP".

[BigTerp]

7-Up is a soda and a game.

Well, yeah. I just thought there was more meaning to your opening post and reason for voting to "Get 7-UP".

VOTE: ItalionoVoD 95% RVS vote and 5% because of that avatar. It's really irking me for some reason.

[BigTerp]

Hello everyone. I can't think of anything witty to say, but I'm looking forwards to playing with the people here that I recognize from 2091. And the new ones, I recognize some of you from other threads I've skimmed through.

Unfortunately I do believe I'm going to have to VOTE: BigTerp based from his avatar alone.

Little Italy in Baltimore, anyone?

LOL!! Other than the occasional Orioles game, we do avoid Baltimore.

Who have you played with before that's in this game?

[BigTerp]

Interesting. What exactly in 19 flipped your vote, TTTT? I assume it has something to do with my own vote on Terp.

@Cornpuff
yeah I didn't like the post
why do you assume it has something to do with your vote?

Curious as well what caused the vote flip here as well. TTTT, you say you didn't like the post. Anything specific?

[BigTerp]

Interesting. What exactly in 19 flipped your vote, TTTT? I assume it has something to do with my own vote on Terp.

I asked this in my last game, but how is everyone linking specific posts by the number. Where the post number is highlighted and underlined and is a link directly to that specific post within the thread? Someone tried to explain it to me, but I never figured it out. Maybe I'm just being dense??

[BigTerp]

@22 and 24, you're vastly overthinking it. It's just a joke on "Go get 7 Up."

@27 -- its [ post] # [ /post], or, 27

A very easy way to do it is to read the quote text, it should show the same thing happening around the #19.

28

Finally. Thanks!!!

[BigTerp]

I second that everyone should give a brief overview of their experience but I still want to know why exactly my intro post drove you to put your vote on me.

I played on this site and another forum fairly frequently about 10 years ago. This is my second game since newbie 2090, which was my first game in that 10 year span.

[BigTerp]

Curious as well what caused the vote flip here as well. TTTT, you say you didn't like the post. Anything specific?

I read the tone as scum+
it's a mild very early read
but better than an RVS vote
his follow ups have been ok

Thanks.

[BigTerp]

I'd like to know how much experience everyone has with mafia in general and the forum format.

How about yourself?

[BigTerp]

Sorry. Been a REALLY busy day. Prod dodge post, but I'll try and catch up tomorrow and will be much more active after the holiday tomorrow.

[BigTerp]

@Bigterp

This is my second ever forum and day start game. I have decent mafia experience but its in night start, pr heavy, non-forum formats.

The proper thing to do is answer the question then ask me in return. Why are you deflecting my question?

The same question was already asked by CornPuff and I answered in 38. No deflecting. If you really want an answer to your question, how'd you miss that it was already answered?

[BigTerp]

I see TTTT asked the same question I did. Didn't notice it.

Fair enough.

[BigTerp]

What's up with people shooting out up to five posts in a row? Seems like a long-form way of saying very little.

I feel the exact opposite. I feel like it's someone who is putting down their thoughts as they progress through the thread, especially if one comes back and there have been several posts or even pages of content to catch up on. Seems more of a genuine progression of thoughts and way more town like then Mafia like who I think would be more calculated with their posts.

[BigTerp]

I still have more than half the thread to catch up on. Won't get to it until later tonight or tomorrow morning at the latest though

[BigTerp]

What's the point of putting Aspho at E-2 when she won't be here for the next two days to respond? And during RVS too.

it's not intended to get a response from Aspho
lots of other good reasons to get an early wagon here
for starters nobody cares about a wagon until E-2
as we can see already from the comments following my vote

Everyone can see what you're doing though so we're not gonna get good information out of this.

This 61 too. If you want to put someone at E-2 to create discussion then voting for Italiano or Corn over someone who's V/LA is a no brainer.

It seems to be getting plenty of response from yourself, which is interesting.

[BigTerp]

TTTT is probably just spewing any bullshit he can think of to get reactions. I don't like his attitude but its NAI.

Again, is getting plenty of reaction form yourself. I've got a lot of catching up to do this morning, but your reaction to TTTT so far is interesting.

[BigTerp]

Italiano's gameplay at the moment is scum+. Town should make an effort to be open and I don't see that. I also think it's easy to fake reads by acting mysterious.

I don't disagree with this. The mysterious, cute, etc. posts do nothing to help advance the game. I don't see any point in it whatsoever.

The back and forth between Italiano and Take seems odd. Not sure why Take is seeming so irritated. They say it's strictly because of Italiano's postings, which is another reason those mysterious type posts are not helpful.

[BigTerp]

Italiano's gameplay at the moment is scum+. Town should make an effort to be open and I don't see that. I also think it's easy to fake reads by acting mysterious.

Yeah, yeah I know it seems like that, but if you could let me do what I do, I promise I will open up fully at the right time. Sometimes I don’t fully open up due to not wanting to give scum ideas that they may have not thought about. I know people can see it as anti-town, but

Oh another thing, just because this is the newbie queue, I treat no one like a newb. I give you my full force of even in the newbie games. The more you see me play the more you’ll understand what I do and why I do what I do.

Besides we have 7 days. What’s the rush?

Nevermind. I understand Take's frustration now.

Italiano is basically saying they have it figured out, yet don't want to "rush" the game. The point is to win and eliminate mafia, not drag things out for whatever reason. Am I missing something here?

[BigTerp]

MAN!!! I'm going to attempt a reads list, but my head is spinning/hurts after catching up this morning. The game, so far, has been dominated by just a few players. With the holiday and weekend that's understandable. But the context of most of the game so far is what has my head hurting. Arguing over intro posts, mysterious/clever type posts, agitation/irritation and long drawn out lecturing type posts. I'm far from a seasoned or good mafia player, but those type of posts, IMO, are not really helping the game along.

Val89 - With only 6 posts so far, probably the most unremarkable player for me thus far into the game.

Null read.

Takemikazuchi02 - FAR from unremarkable so far, LOL. The intense irritation/agitation gives me pause, but I can't see mafia wanting to stick out so much so early in the game.

Town lean.

CornPuffBuddha - Another unremarkable player for me for whatever reason. A few have scum reads here, but I honestly don't have much to go on. Need to go back and read this one in ISO.

Null read

ItalianoVD - Some weird, mysterious type posts that seem rather anti-town. They've frustrated a few players and seem to have stalled the game a bit. Similar to Take though, I can't see mafia being this brazen and sticking their neck out so much early on in the game. However, it still feels pretty scummy to me the way they are playing.

Null to scum read here.

TTTT - I've played with TTTT in my only previous game here. He was town and worked hard to ask relevant questions and move the game along productively. Some don't seem to like his style, so far this game, but he playing very similar to that previous game.

Town read here.

Asphodelus - Another one with not much context. ZERO feeling here either way.

Null read

abdbla - Minimal posts, but they seem rather fluffy and lacking much context.

Null to scum read.

furtiveglance - Only other player I've previously played with (same game at TTTT). I misread them several times throughout the game and they ended town. Seem to be playing very similar this game. Decent conversation and questions, much of which has so far aligned with my own thoughts.

Town read here.

[BigTerp]

I'm not liking the fact that I've got 3 null reads, and no real strong scum reads so far. Would love to hear more from Asphodelus, abdbla and Val89. I know it's early and were coming off a holiday weekend, but having 3 players sort of hiding in the shadows is not helpful.

[BigTerp]

this is my 100th game of mafia on forum dot mafiascum dot net
(someone should bake a cake in postgame or something)
and I'm trying to not be bothered by players rolling up in here thinking they have nothing to learn
and linking fucking wikipedia articles about logical fallacies

Yeah, ok

VOTE: TTTT

Bigger post to follow soon.

I'm interested to hear your reasoning here and your "bigger post" which I assume will include that. This seems more like an OMGUS vote that anything.

[BigTerp]

Aspho's 214 is interesting. I have a relatively good TR on TTTT based on their general posting and attitude feeling active townie to me by this point, so I'd be very interested to hear why Aspho is voting them for 213. I'll wait for the big post they said is coming.

@TTTT

216 - Notice every single time you listed that I defended him it was based around the same exchange over 60. I am not going to the ends of the earth to defend T02, I had an opinion on a singular topic of discussion and I wanted to present my interpretation of the thread. You and others disagreed, so we argued about it for a few posts. If you see that as a scumtell I don't know what to tell you.

@T02

217 - That statement doesn't necessarily come from me thinking you're a particularly good player (no offense), moreso that I don't think most scum players familiar with social deduction games and with atleast one forum game under their belt would be that incompetent. This isn't a foolproof logical rule by any means, but I think with such a simple proposed slip it's worthwhile atleast mentioning. Note that this also isn't necessarily a towntell, it's possible TTTT is reading a slip where there isn't one but T02 is still maf.

I can't help but see some of the logic in 226. I do think it's genuinely possible that T02 is just exceptionally frustrated by this player list for some reason, but this is a marked change in their demeanor from 2091 (for the negative). That being said, it would be extremely surprising to me for newbscum to stick their neck out like this and act so blatantly hostile towards several of the players - it would certainly be a very bold strategy. So my read on T02 is conflicted here.

230 reads strongly townie to me. 231 seems pretty good, trying to move the discussion in a new direction and gain some more information, with a solid provided reason. I know Aspho said they have a post coming though so I'll wait for that.

236 is an iffy reads list to me because it all just seems to be fairly obvious reads to be taken from the page couple of pages. The only interesting one here to me is the scum lean read on abdbla, I'd like to hear some elaboration on their posts "lacking context"/being fluffy.

If there's anything I missed let me know, this is an early morning post.

I agree with much of what you posted here. Specifically regarding Val89 and 230 and 231. After going back and ISOing Val89 78 looks to be some decent scum hunting.

I'll address my reads list. It seems iffy, because it literally is. I even mentioned after posting it that I did not like having 3 null reads and zero solid scum reads. After catching up with the thread this morning, the only things that really stuck out to me were the back and forth between Italiano and Take and the arguments about initial post greetings. I honestly had to go down the ISO list to make sure I had every player included in my reads list. As far as abdbla, I'll admit that going back through their ISO there was more context to their posts that I gave them credit for. But posts like 116,119, 121, 126 and 209 are all discussing, at some length, the irrelevant issue of how players greet the game. It encompasses half their total posts. Seems rather pointless/fluffy to me.

[BigTerp]

I don't understand the hostility that's happening this game. It's extremely discouraging.

[BigTerp]

On that subject, Italiano mindset in general feels very iffy to me. His early posting definitely gave me the vibe of a (perhaps overly) confident mafia player with a lot of experience, that arrogance and ego shining through. His recent posts have dialied this back pretty heavily, though, and it really just reads like scum changing tacks when the previous tactic didn't go over so well.

The shift in tone after post 180 is

drastic

.

Very interesting point here, and I have to agree. It actually happened between being taken to E-1 and you removing your vote to take it back to E-2 (if I'm reading the voting progression correctly). Could very well be mafia feeling like they overreached with their play and had to dial things back.

I've got the vote count at....

Italiano - 2
abdbla - 1
CornPuff - 2
Take - 1
TTTT - 1

W/CornPuff the only one not voting.

I'm comfortable with my vote on Italiano. Would like to see a second wagon to hopefully generate more and better discussion, but am not against getting Italiano back up to E-2 or even E-1 to see what might shake out.

[BigTerp]

In response to my own post 254 Asphodelus quietly took Italiano back down to E-3 with a OMGUS vote on TTTT here 214. To be fair, Asphodelus initial vote on Italiano was a RVS vote. But something to note considering the change in posting style/attitude from Italiano quickly followed by them getting back to below E-2 when they found themselves at E-1 all of a sudden. I find CornPuff's unvote here 167 much more town like. Especially considering they took Italiano to E-2 themselves here 92.

With all of that said, I think putting the heat back to Italiano gets us the most information in our current game state.

[BigTerp]

Vote Count 1.05

ItalianoVD (2):

BigTerp, Takemikazuchi02

CornPuffBuddha (2):

abdbla, TTTT

abdbla (1):

furtiveglance

Asphodelus (1):

Val89

Takemikazuchi02 (1):

ItalianoVD

TTTT (1):

Asphodelus

Not Voting (1):

CornPuffBuddha

With 9 alive, it's 5 to eliminate.

Deadline for Day 1 is April 24 at 6:00 PM EST.

Deadline Timer:

(expired on 2022-04-24 18:00:00)

Sorry, I missed this before I went back to tally votes. I hope me doing that and posting it wasn't some sort of violation or anything. Didn't think of that until just now. Apologizes if so!!

[BigTerp]

@abdbla

244

First line is meh but whatever.

[Referring to my 239

"
The way you phrased this makes it seem like you think its a towntell in your opinion. Is that what you think? If it is, why did you hedge yourself like this? If you don't think it is a towntell, again, why hedge that it might be by phrasing it like this?"

- I don't think I understand what you mean. I specifically added that caveat to make it explicit that I don't necessarily think TTTT making a bad read and T02 being in the clear in this specific instance doesn't mean they can't be scum. That sentence hurt to write. Sorry. Tell me if you need additional clarification there's probably a more lucid way to say that.

"I don't think I agree with this interpretation, or the interpretation of Italiano at large. I find T02 to be acting fairly similar to how he was later in the game, with the differences being accounted for by a boost of confidence from correct scumreads (though I don't agree how he got there) and the fact that Italiano's arguing is often iffy at best."

- I guess we just disagree here. I agree that Italiano's arguing has been suspect, but reading back through 2091, even when I was pushing hard to get him miselimmed, T02 did not get as consistently

toxic

as he has been so far in this thread. Confidence being boosted by his correct scum reads is something of an explanation but I don't buy that it accounts for his entire, very noticeable change in demeanor here. He was literally saying shit like "it's only a game, nobody has to be mad" later in 2091. There's definitely something else going on, but the thing is I'm not sure what it is yet.

"I'm largely in agreement with val on the post, Asph tended to have game commentary as well as the pigeon thing going, it wasn't just meaningless/tangential topics that half the playerlist didn't care about."

- Back in 2091 Aspho also caught some initial heat for similar things they are here though, to be fair. I think it's possible town!Aspho needs some time to spin their wheels, and their most recent post has been significantly more substantive anyways.

By the way for anyone interested TTTT was scum in Newbie 2088. So if anyone wants to try to get some metareads with me there you go.

Is Italiano still a scum read? Your biggest? Why not put your vote back there to get some pressure on them and see what happens?

If not Italiano, who is your biggest read? Would you be willing to get a second wagon going there then?

[BigTerp]

BigTerp, if you had to guess one mafia right now, who would it be?

Italiano would be my #1. But it's not a highly confident feel right now. Hence my own response to my reads list as insufficient. We (I) need more discussion to help move things along. I think Italiano sticks out the most for reasons I mentioned here 236 and here 254. Then I go back and read 259 and feel like I'm reaching a bit to try and solidify my read on Italiano. I know I'm being hyper self-aware here, but I'm honestly feeling a bit lost so far this game. Such a different feel this game for me and I'm having a little trouble getting in the groove.

[BigTerp]

@BigTerp

264 - Yes, I'd say Italiano is still a scum lean. My biggest? Unsure. Gun to my head, currently I'd either put my vote on abdbla or Italiano, that seems like the most productive use of it. I have few strong TRs at this point and I think atleast one of the scum is someone without major FoS on them.

Thanks. Considering there are 3 players with 1 vote and 4 players with 0 votes, do you have a feel on which one of them without major FoS on them might be scum?

[BigTerp]

You know what, why not.

VOTE: abdbla

Disregard the second part of my previous post, you answered it here. I could get behind this vote, but would like to also see an Italiano wagon in addition to an abdbla one.

[BigTerp]

I don't think all this bickering is gonna get us anywhere. I sympathize with Aspho, I do find Italiano and to a lesser extent TTTT annoying and unfun to play but we need to play to win.

I'm gonna try to be more civil and I hope Aspho does the same and TTTT gets off high horse. I think Italiano is beyond compromise unfortunately..

You're saying lets all stop being confrontational while

literally

being confrontational. It's getting old and making this particular game quickly not fun to play.

[BigTerp]

Big Terp, can you elaborate on 232 and 233.

Take was saying that TTTT's vote that took Aspho to E-2 was basically pointless because they were going to be V/LA for a few days and it wouldn't help to move the game along. Those post (232 233) showed several examples of Take doing, what I thought, was something TTTT was hoping to get out of a vote to move Aspho to E-2. A reaction. In fact, Take had several reactions to it. From that standpoint, if Aspho is scum Take is the partner.

[BigTerp]

Italiano is basically saying they have it figured out, yet don't want to "rush" the game. The point is to win and eliminate mafia, not drag things out for whatever reason. Am I missing something here?

Yes, but it’s also to cover all your bases and make sure you are 100% comfortable with moving forward. It’s not a blitz and I could be wrong so that’s why taking the allotted time is important.

Fair enough, but that is not at all how you presented it.

[BigTerp]

It does feel a bit chaotic.

By design or just happening? What are your thoughts on that?

[BigTerp]

Who's design could it be by? Half the lobby is caught up in acrimonious death tunneling and half is just not here.

I was reading your post as hinting a bit, I guess.

But yeah, agreed, and it's making it a bummer of a game so far.

[BigTerp]

Hinting at what? Italiano/Take having mafia? At this rate I wouldn't rule anything out

Yes

[BigTerp]

Maybe taking abdbla to E-2 will get some things going and change the course of this game a bit.

VOTE: abdbla

This puts abdbla at E-2

[BigTerp]

@Aspho

What are your thoughts on my, Corn and Abd's behavior in comparison to last game?

Same question to

@Corn

and

@Abd

I'd be interested in this as well.

[BigTerp]

@Val
have you read 2091 (the game with several players from this playerlist)?

I have not. I'm having trouble keeping up with the volume of posting in THIS game currently, which is something I don't usually struggle with.

I grab a little while to check the thread on mobile, see something interesting and make a mental note to point it out or ask a question about it when I get to my PC, and the next time I check there is another 3 pages

and it appears multiple players are 180ing on reads with zero progression explained.

I'll be home shortly, but if this continues I still won't have time for homework, so if any of the players of 2091 want to tell me something important about any of the other players, I'm all ears.

This is fair in response to your VERY limited posting thus far. But as to the bolded part, I don't recall much, if any, complete 180's on reads. Could you elaborate on your thoughts there?

[BigTerp]

I had speficially Aspho in mind for that, particularly regarding the 'zero progression' part. I am working from memory here, but I am quite sure she said something along the lines of "T02 and TTTT are TvT because they are throwing shit at each other" and then when asked about it, gave a list of examples that were entirely from T02 (you will have to find the post yourself since I'm still mobile posting), and is now voting there.

I am sure one of my mental notes was to ask Furtive about an implied town read on T02, but then saw them suggest recently they were a possible partner to Abdbla, and I thought you, BigTerp had done the same on at least one slot (Abdbla?) between the catch up I read on my earlier train ride and the posting I was skimming through just, although I accept I could very well be wrong on any of those points and I'm spit balling presently.

As to your first part, you're correct it was Asphodelus. However, the TTTT vote was a OMGUS vote. And I missed where Aspho voted you in between Italiano and TTTT. Nothing really of consequence there, just a note for myself. But you do make some good points in regards to Aspho and their "flipping" stance.

As to your second part, I was just simply agreeing with Furtive that the back and forth between Take and Italiano early on could be a scum team. Rather far fetched, but possible.

[BigTerp]

I'm comfortable with my vote on Italiano. Would like to see a second wagon to hopefully generate more and better discussion, but am not against getting Italiano back up to E-2 or even E-1 to see what might shake out.

Well you missed it. I was already at E1.

Actually, I specifically mentioned it here 259 and how it seemed to generate some interesting movement/discussion amongst others, not just yourself. Hence my desire to get you back up in that direction again. Didn't seem to garner much interest so I decided to throw some heat towards my second best scum read, abdbla, and see what happens.

[BigTerp]

Italiano is basically saying they have it figured out, yet don't want to "rush" the game. The point is to win and eliminate mafia, not drag things out for whatever reason. Am I missing something here?

Yes, but it’s also to cover all your bases and make sure you are 100% comfortable with moving forward. It’s not a blitz and I could be wrong so that’s why taking the allotted time is important.

Fair enough, but that is not at all how you presented it.

I didn’t think I needed to present it like that. What other interpretation do you get from let’s wait to actually eliminate until we use the entire time allotted.

You're posting is just all over the place. You go from "not knowing what's going on" here 65 to having it figured out 20 posts later here 86 and being able to "forward the gamestate". But you didn't then because "scum won’t like that because this game will be short" and you'd rather "take a laid back approach". Now it's because you want to "cover all your bases" and be "100% comfortable with moving forward." Again, not at all how you presented it earlier.

[BigTerp]

Ask away, Italiano. I will say that I don't think what Terp put forwards in 282 is necessarily true. I'd like to avoid jumping to conclusions like "if X flips scum, then Y must also be scum" this early on in general, especially when it's based on such flimsy reasoning.

Are you asking for myself or Italiano to address this? I will anyway. Yeah, it might be a bit of a stretch, but Take was reacting to something (TTTT's vote) WAY more than needed, especially given the fact that Take was saying the vote was pointless. If Take has skin in the game (Aspho is his scum partner) it's the only reason I can think of as to why Take kept bringing up TTTT's "pointless" vote. Since then, however, Take has admitted that he is reading TTTT scummy and finds him annoying. So could certainly be more to it that my thoughts there and simply just the "bickering" we've been plagued with early on this game.

[BigTerp]

Also I never said TTTT was scummy. Why are you putting words in my mouth?

I'm on mobile until tomorrow morning, so won't have much to contribute. But to address this, I confused you and Asphodelus' reads on TTTT. My mistake.

[BigTerp]

MAN!!! I'm going to attempt a reads list, but my head is spinning/hurts after catching up this morning. The game, so far, has been dominated by just a few players. With the holiday and weekend that's understandable. But the context of most of the game so far is what has my head hurting. Arguing over intro posts, mysterious/clever type posts, agitation/irritation and long drawn out lecturing type posts. I'm far from a seasoned or good mafia player, but those type of posts, IMO, are not really helping the game along.

Val89 - With only 6 posts so far, probably the most unremarkable player for me thus far into the game.

Null read.

Takemikazuchi02 - FAR from unremarkable so far, LOL. The intense irritation/agitation gives me pause, but I can't see mafia wanting to stick out so much so early in the game.

Town lean.

CornPuffBuddha - Another unremarkable player for me for whatever reason. A few have scum reads here, but I honestly don't have much to go on. Need to go back and read this one in ISO.

Null read

ItalianoVD - Some weird, mysterious type posts that seem rather anti-town. They've frustrated a few players and seem to have stalled the game a bit. Similar to Take though, I can't see mafia being this brazen and sticking their neck out so much early on in the game. However, it still feels pretty scummy to me the way they are playing.

Null to scum read here.

TTTT - I've played with TTTT in my only previous game here. He was town and worked hard to ask relevant questions and move the game along productively. Some don't seem to like his style, so far this game, but he playing very similar to that previous game.

Town read here.

Asphodelus - Another one with not much context. ZERO feeling here either way.

Null read

abdbla - Minimal posts, but they seem rather fluffy and lacking much context.

Null to scum read.

furtiveglance - Only other player I've previously played with (same game at TTTT). I misread them several times throughout the game and they ended town. Seem to be playing very similar this game. Decent conversation and questions, much of which has so far aligned with my own thoughts.

Town read here.

After catching up this morning, below is where I currently stand with everyone. Color coded even for Furtive's pleasure!!

Val89

- Has gone from a null (mostly due to inactivity) to a pretty solid town read. They've caught up with the game and have provide some very productive posts. This 298 and previous post about trying to keep up with the game and being busy seem genuine. 339 Is VERY interesting. They seem to be really trying to figure things out. Subsequent posts could be seen as tunneling a bit (on Take), but I think Val has really figured something out (even if only in their own head) and continues to work through their thought process with each post.

CornPuffBuddha

- Another town read. They have many of the same thoughts and progressions as I've had myself so far. This 212 is a very unrated townish type post that didn't stick out much until now, for whatever reason. Much of the same as Val in regards to subsequent posts. Pretty strong town read here.

TTTT

- Still a fairly solid town read for the same reasons mentioned in my reads list quoted above. Not much has changed here, other than the fact they are being replaced.

Furtive

- Has gone from a town to null read. Something in the back of my head just keeps telling me I gotta watch out here. He was a REALLY tough read for me the only game we played together, and I kept going back and forth. He ended up being town, and I even protected him as the town doctor twice, but I questioned myself the whole time. Same feelings here for whatever reason.

Asphodelus

- Going to keep them null, for now. Still a tough read for me. They've been really focused/tunneling TTTT, who've I've got as town. The OMGUS vote is not helpful and they seem to be back and forth between it being an actual OMGUS vote and that TTTT is scum, like here 316. They say

"My vote on TTTT is more OMGUS than it is a real vote."

. Yet in the same post have TTTT as their top scum read. Which is it? Not much context besides the TTTT stuff and a few posts that get rather long and rambling.

abdbla

- Null to slightly scummy read. My vote is currently here, but I'm questioning that now. Their lack of participation and seemingly "fluffy" type posts early on gave me a lot of pause. However, they've come back since and provided some decent content. Specifically here 271 and here 312. BUT, there was no reaction to me putting my vote on them, which seems odd. I expected at least some sort of comment on that if they were town.

Takemikazuchi02

- Now a null to scum read. The first part of the game was just odd to me. I still don't understand the frustration and irritation, but at least they explained why it happened. Fair enough there. Val's post here 339 gave me some pause and got me thinking more about Take. But the subsequent defensiveness on Take's part is really evident starting with 342 and is really starting to look like scum squirming to me.

ItalianoVD

- Scum!! Their drastic shift from their early play has me thinking they are scum trying to shift tactics after being called out for the mysterious type posts. 281 feels like scum trying to make excuses for their early play. This 314 was conveniently not addressed. Again, feels like scum trying to dismiss their early scum play hoping it'll be forgotten about.

With all of that said, I could be convinced on any of the bottom 4 on my list. Would love to see a dueling wagon on 2 of them though. The solo wagons haven't garnered much discussion/movement. Getting 2 together might give us more and better information.

[BigTerp]

Malakittens replaces TTTT.

Interested to hearing your thoughts Malakittens.

Where is everyone at? We need to get some discussion going!!!

Any thoughts on my reads list? How about my idea of getting 2 dueling wagons going?

[BigTerp]

@Bigterp

Let's imagine I get eliminated today and I flip town. What would you do?

Excellent question.

If you flipped town, I would go back and look to see who didn't have much to say about your irritation/aggression and rather harsh play early on (no offense). Of that pool, anyone who had their vote on you at some point I would be suspicious of. I would also look hard at Italiano, who seemed to egg you on (as you pointed out). Considering I'm already highly suspicious of Italiano, I would ultimately push for an elimination of him as I would see his play as just lighting your fire, in the wrong way, to get you miselim'd.

[BigTerp]

Ok I failed to strip quote. Hopefully it's still readable

All good. Give me a minute.....

[BigTerp]

Val is your top townread. Are we playing the same game? Val has gone from coasting to peddling an Aspho/T02 solve which makes no sense to me. All of Val's latest posting is tunneling T02, he isn't commenting on most of the playerlist or explaining why he townreads literally everyone other than Aspho and T02 (apparently).

Yep. And pretty solid at that. I addressed the tunneling on Take in my list. The post just really seemed like logical progression from a town player working through the thread. I feel like scum would be more calculated, for lack of a better word, with their posts. While I agree that Val's are heavy on Take and light on most everyone else, they just felt extremely towny to me.

Aspho has been playing very strangely. It's one of those where I'm not sure mafia would play like this on day 1.

Agreed. But the thing about this game in particular, is much the same can be said for several other players. So play style/behavior in general that would normally stick out as either alignment is tough, for me at least, to pick up on this game.

What did you townread about the reactions?

The above is in reference to abdbla. And is a good question. Honestly, I can't pick out anything specific that screams town from the reactions. I think I got caught up in the fact that they were participating with well worded responses and seemed to be thinking through things. When compared to my previous read here of "Minimal posts, but they seem rather fluffy and lacking much context" it was a positive change. But it could in fact just be "busy" posts to increase participation. Hence why I've still got them on a slight scummy read.

Disagree, I've gone back and forth but I land town with Take - especially as Val and Italiano are the ones hard pushing him.

I can't completely commit to a scum read here, but also cannot clear them as town for reasons already explained above. Maybe the defensiveness is their play style, but it seems scummy to me. Agreed Val is pushing hard here and Italiano has been there for most of the game. I think we get the most info. out of an Italiano elim here though versus Val or Take.

They have changed their style drastically since early game. Definitely high chance of being scum, after their reaction to being pushed early.

Yep, and may very well move my vote back here.

Furtive - You're currently on abdbla, along with myself. Do you prefer a abdbla elim or Italiano elim? As I've mentioned earlier, the non reaction from abdbla to me putting them to E-2 is interesting.

[BigTerp]

I think a functional townblock is me, Terp, Corn and TTTT's replacement. For day 1 at least

Replace yourself with Val, and I can get down with this. You still give me the willy's for reasons I cannot articulate. It might just be your play style because, like I said, I had the same issue last game and I feel like you're playing pretty similarly.

[BigTerp]

For obvious reasons I'd rather be in there over Val. In terms of today's elimination I think abdbla has high scum potential, Italiano might give more info however. If I townread Italiano more I might even consider Take, but that might just be a waste as I see scum!Italiano more than scum!Take.

I don't disagree with any of this in regards to today's elimination. But I do find it interesting that you might consider Take after abdbla and Italiano when you just said the following to my scum(ish) read on Take....

Disagree, I've gone back and forth but I land town with Take - especially as Val and Italiano are the ones hard pushing him.

Also this...........

Val is your top townread. Are we playing the same game? Val has gone from coasting to peddling an Aspho/T02 solve which makes no sense to me. All of Val's latest posting is tunneling T02, he isn't commenting on most of the playerlist or explaining why he townreads literally everyone other than Aspho and T02 (apparently).

What happened between 367 and 376 that you went from reading Take as town and Val as scum, to considering Take for elim and not even mentioned Val for elim?

[BigTerp]

@Bigterp

I can't comprehend how you think Val is town or how I'm being defensive.
Val's argument is complete trash and conveniently targeted at the two people at scumread him and me correcting him isn't defensiveness.

I disagree that Val's argument is trash. And I see your responses as highly defensive, not corrective. Just like in the early game. Like I already said, maybe it's just your play style, but it sticks out as scummy to me.

[BigTerp]

I never considered Take for an elim. I said if I townread Italiano I would consider Take. I'm between abdbla/Val/Italiano for the elim today.

It's just a weird thing to even bring up Take and say

"If I townread Italiano more I might even consider Take, but that might just be a waste as I see scum!Italiano more than scum!Take."

when you literally just disagreed with my scum(ish) read on Take. If you've got Take as a town read, why even bring them up in this scenario? Which is discussing today's elim.

[BigTerp]

I believe Abd or Aspho is probably scum. And if I was wrong about Take then I think that’s the partnership.

Take abdbla to E-1 and lets see what happens.

[BigTerp]

I disagree that Val's argument is trash.

Then explain.

Val gave, what I thought, to be a reasonable explanation as to your frustration and overall defensive type posts early on. Something I even mentioned myself. So Val's thought process there isn't exactly the polar opposite of mine.

[BigTerp]

@Bigterp

Val's argument was that was I threated by the newbscum greeting "tell", then it changed to me lying about last game(not true) and then it changed again to me being toxic and should be policy eliminated.

Val. It's not 'factually incorrect' that a lot of your posts have been strategy or otherwise not pertinent to other players.

78 is a bit of speculation on Take/TTTT interaction, followed by discussion of the dreaded 'greeting tell'.

104 is again about 'tells' and meta.

230 is about the tell discussion in this game.

Since then you've been insanely confident on an Aspho/Take solve, without sufficient reason in my opinion.

As for the vote on Aspho being an omgus, she voted you in 194. You voted her in 231.
That's what an omgus vote is.

@Takemikazuchi02

- Fair enough. Yourself and Furtive have given enough evidence for me to go back and go through the thread again as well as Val's ISO to see what I might be missing.

[BigTerp]

I believe Abd or Aspho is probably scum. And if I was wrong about Take then I think that’s the partnership.

Take abdbla to E-1 and lets see what happens.

I’m with you, but not today. We do Take today.

What are your thoughts on Val?

Since you have Take as your #1 scum read, how do you feel about Furtive who is right there with Take on Val lately?

[BigTerp]

I believe Abd or Aspho is probably scum. And if I was wrong about Take then I think that’s the partnership.

Take abdbla to E-1 and lets see what happens.

I’m with you, but not today. We do Take today.

What are your thoughts on Val?

Thanks

Since you have Take as your #1 scum read, how do you feel about Furtive who is right there with Take on Val lately?

I’m placing Val in my townbin for now. Everyone else except for the three I mentioned feel townie to me.

[BigTerp]

@Bigterp

Val's argument was that was I threated by the newbscum greeting "tell", then it changed to me lying about last game(not true) and then it changed again to me being toxic and should be policy eliminated.

Val. It's not 'factually incorrect' that a lot of your posts have been strategy or otherwise not pertinent to other players.

78 is a bit of speculation on Take/TTTT interaction, followed by discussion of the dreaded 'greeting tell'.

104 is again about 'tells' and meta.

230 is about the tell discussion in this game.

Since then you've been insanely confident on an Aspho/Take solve, without sufficient reason in my opinion.

As for the vote on Aspho being an omgus, she voted you in 194. You voted her in 231.
That's what an omgus vote is.

@Takemikazuchi02

- Fair enough. Yourself and Furtive have given enough evidence for me to go back and go through the thread again as well as Val's ISO to see what I might be missing.

I haven't had a chance to do this yet, but am going to try and work through it today.

[BigTerp]

I believe Abd or Aspho is probably scum. And if I was wrong about Take then I think that’s the partnership.

Take abdbla to E-1 and lets see what happens.

I’m with you, but not today. We do Take today.

What are your thoughts on Val?

Thanks

Since you have Take as your #1 scum read, how do you feel about Furtive who is right there with Take on Val lately?

I’m placing Val in my townbin for now. Everyone else except for the three I mentioned feel townie to me.

Meant to reply thanks to this post from Italiano.

[BigTerp]

Val is your top townread. Are we playing the same game?

Listen, I've been trying my hardest, when considering your slot and in particular how you approaching mine to remember the circumstances of our last game together, and consider how that might tempt you to view me in most uncharitable light possible, perhaps even unconsciously.

I say this because I have a decent recent to townread you, relating to your actions when Italiano was at E-1 - You posted a few times in the window he was sat in hammer range, and I think scum!you, with said experience of our previous game, and having the perfect excuse to do so given your reads - would have taken that opportunity to force a claim. I also have some symphony for the way you've approached Italiano in general, since I recall how in my first games I took a refusal to elaborate as scummy and it took a few games outside the newbie queue to see how common such an approach is amongst players of a certain vintage regardless of alignment.

I say this, not only to put the reasons for my townread on record, on account of your complaint, but also because your read on T02 makes clear you are allowing your distrust of my slot to affect your read there in a way that is obviously, from my point of view knowing my own alignment, going to cause issues for town.

Val89: Val was scum in 2088, and largely inactive that game. His play this game feels similar post-count wise, and I don't like that what he has said is mostly strategy, apart from an omgus vote on Aspho.

I'll start with this, because looking back, the basis for your 'null/scumlean' here is factually incorrect. Feel free to look at my ISO again prior to 265 and count the number of times I gave strategy advice, because unless we have different definitions of what that means, I count precisely zero. I would also take the opportunity to recheck the votes and the order they came in before categorizing my vote on Aspho as 'omgus'. I also think the level of objection you are raising to other players townreading me is over and above that of null/scumlean, and in-and-of-itself evidence you are allowing our previous one on one to taint this game.

I might be wasting my time here,

but it's worth a short

, because I would really like to flip T02 today. I'm highly confident that will result in a red flip, and perhaps that will knock you out of this in itself; and if your unwarranted distrust of me is part of what is standing in the way of that, that's an issue.

As promised, I went back through Val's ISO and the last few pages of the thread. In Furtive's and Take's defense, this particular post does stick out at scummy to me. Particularly the bolded parts.

BUT.......I'm still not getting a lot of scummy vibes here. Take and Furtive are doing a good job of pointing out their scummy thoughts on Val however. So the interactions here are definitely something to keep in mind as the game progresses.

[BigTerp]

As promised, I went back through Val's ISO and the last few pages of the thread. In Furtive's and Take's defense, this particular post does stick out at scummy to me. Particularly the bolded parts.

Sorry, BigTerp, I know it's difficult to see how others might perceive your own slot, but I can not think of any reason someone might legitimately find anything you've bolded there scummy.

Are you aware of the context of the last time I met furtive?

Spoiler: Furtive on T02

Takemikazuchi02: I townread Take early for the aggression and frankness. Looking at his ISO now though, I can see that defensive mafia is a possibility.

Appreciate the response.

Disagree, I've gone back and forth but I land town with Take - especially as Val and Italiano are the ones hard pushing him.

I have Take as a null read. Italiano is scummier. It's game strategy - sometimes you vote with a player who is hard pushing someone else.

I think it is VERY clear that furtive, while I think they are town, is allowing their read on others to affect how they see the T02 slot - someone I think is very likely to flip red. I think the fact that furtive said they 'land town' on T02, then within a few posts was back to null again when BigTerp and Italiano pushed for more clarity on that read indicates to me furtive knows they doesn't actually have good reason to TR T02, but they are treating them as green because they distrust me and Italiano, who are pushing T02. I know I am town and I am leaning town on Italiano as well, so that's a big problem. Even if I am wrong about T02, or Italiano for that matter, the fact that the one read I know is incorrect is affecting furtives other reads is an issue, and that's an objective fact. The only case that wouldn't be true is if furtive was mafia and inventing all their reads, and I don't think that is the case.

I'm going to have to insist you explaining your thinking on this one BigTerp, because I'm not seeing how you arrive where you do.

No, I'm unaware of your previously dealings with Furtive. If you'd like to fill me in, or point me in the right direction I'll certainly look into it.

As far as what I bolded being perceived as scummy.........The reference to your "slot" and previous dealings with Furtive in previous games just seems like a way to present an argument without really saying much and being able to be held accountable for it later on. Typical Mafia style play. Secondly, saying things like "knowing my own alignment" and "but it's worth a short" (in reference to possibly being wrong on your read on Take) both just sound scummy to me.

I don't disagree on your take on Furtive. I pointed it out earlier on them being sort of wishy washy with their read on Take. The difference is I read it as a bit of a scummy move, where you are seeing it as them allowing their read on others to effect their read on Take.

With that said, I've still got you in my town pile. Furtive is still a tough read for me, as always. But if you were to flip red, I'd peg Furtive as your scum partner.

[BigTerp]

Val is prob town

I want to start interacting with people on real time now since I'm kinda bad on forming reads when i replace in.

What are your thoughts on the early play of Take and Italiano, specifically the interaction between the two?

How about abdbla and Asphodelus' minimal participation in the game? (15 posts each)

You've got Take as town+ and Val as town. What are you thoughts on Val seemingly tunneling Take at this point?

You say "gross" to Italiano's 71. Are you scum reading them? What other thoughts do you have here?

I'll be around until around 4:00 EST. So can engage in real time until then.

[BigTerp]

In furtives first ever game on this site, I was scum, and I got him, the claimed town tracker, mislimmed one-on-one D2 with a fake CC. He was, understandably, extremely frustrated about it to the point he said we was considering not playing again. The game in question for reference is here. It's clear from the post game discussion that he considered that game lost - despite being reassured by others that it wasn't his fault, I just played a good scum game - because he wasn't able to convince everyone else what was obvious to him, that I was mafia.

I think it's somewhat understandable that either town!furtive would therefore be hypersensitive or a scum!furtive would probably be looking for any chance for revenge this game, and I've been looking closely at those possibilities from the get go.

Thanks for the explanation.

"but it's worth a short" (in reference to possibly being wrong on your read on Take) both just sound scummy to me.

In actual fact, that wasn't in reference to being possibly wrong on my read on Take. The full context is as follows:

I might be wasting my time here, but it's worth a short, because I would really like to flip T02 today. I'm highly confident that will result in a red flip, and perhaps that will knock you out of this in itself; and if your unwarranted distrust of me is part of what is standing in the way of that, that's an issue.

I was asking furtive to look at me again with fresh eyes, perhaps with some awareness of how our previous game might be affecting his read; I know that's a big ask, but I considered it 'worth a shot' because, as I explained, I think the fact he went from Town to null again on T02 in the space of 20 or so posts and that he only had 'val and italiano are pushing t02' to say in support of that TR is evidence that it is that unwarranted distrust that is standing in the way of a lim I think is going to result in a red flip, and that's obviously the best start we can have to this game. It wasn't the T02 lim that was, but the direct appeal to furtive to look at me again that I considered worth a shot.

If you had wrongly read that as 'I might be wrong about t02 but want to lim him anyway', and you didn't know those previous circumstances, then I can at least understand why you thought that might have been scummy. I thought there might have been a bit of opportunism on your part there, but it makes sense how that could have been a town thought now.[/quote]

Fair enough. My mistake on equating the "but it's worth a shot" to you possibly being wrong on your Take read.

[BigTerp]

The above quoted really weirdly for me. My responses are in bold.

[BigTerp]

We need to get some more out of Asphodelus and abdbla. They are both averaging a messily 3 posts a day. abdbla's absence is the most eyebrow raising for myself. I put them to E-2 here 289. Called them out for not addressing it here 362 and suggested they getting taken to E-1 here 384. They've posted exactly twice since I put them to E-2. the second post was after I both called them out for ignoring my E-2 vote and after I suggested Italiano put them to E-1. Not a single word about any of it. Odd!!

CornPuffBuddha has been absent for a while as well and is in prod territory.

We

NEED

to get more people involved and discussions going. Back and forth between 2 or 3 players amongst a 9 player pool is doing no good. Mafia is either actively involved in the back and forth driving the direction of the game, or sitting back amongst the inactive watching town players bicker amongst themselves. I've got scum reads on both sides, so am not sure which is which. But

MORE

discussion amongst

MORE

than 2 or 3 players will help clear that up!!!

[BigTerp]

I'm back, ended being pretty busy today as well. Will start catching up, please direct any questions or anything you may have my way at your earliest convenience.

My bad. I missed 360 about you being V/LA.

Nothing specific to ask, but look forward to hearing some thoughts about the last few pages.

[BigTerp]

We have a few days left before deadline. I think abdbla has the highest scum potential, Italiano might give more info though. I think we should probably vote in these two today, my preferred option is abdbla.

I'm not opposed to either myself.

Would still like to hear more from those mentioned in my previous post. I know we still have time, but it seems like just a few players are driving the direction of the game. Not saying that's particularly scummy or not, but I certainly don't think it's helpful.

[BigTerp]

Good Day Fam,

So, I took awhile to reread this thread and the entire sentiment that came through with it. I will first go with what I have to say; a lot of my dislike and 'scumtells' towards TTTT were just me being annoyed at the arrogance factor. With a few days of separation and a cooler head, while I still do not like their playing style, I can't honestly say I consider it that scummy. If anything, TTTT was moving the game along, even if it was through a way I don't find incredibly worthwhile.

Now, moving to the game that comes before us, I don't actually understand the adblba bandwagon. If we look through the actual votes, the first one happens by

Furtiveglance

at 81; or nearly the beginning of the game. In 265 the mention of why the vote is still on them is because of the fact they're confrontational and relying far more on mathematics/statistics over game analysis. Fair enough.

CornPuffBudha

votes for them officially on a 270 which is a continuation of 269. It's between both choices, and while they thought Italiano was the scummier of the two, they picked Abdbla. Contextually, as per the mod post on 251 it was between first place person, himself, or anyone else. Fine.

BigTerp

votes for them on 289 even though, as per 362 is just basically saying 'Italiano is the scummiest, and adblba is nullish, so we should vote adblba to get a read'. That's... weird.

Reading

adblba

's posts however don't actually come off as anything scummy to me. It's just contextual analysis of the the game through math and debating about theories, hell his entire point is made in 312. I don't think the arguements people present in the posts before (and their reasoning votes) really justify this bandwagon. it almost seems like a 'this person posts the least and when he does, its not about the stuff I want too'

Initially, my next person would be Italiano. Reading his ISO doesn't actually make him come off as scummy to me anymore, just.. arrogant. Though, I think it comes down to this -- in 405 he claims the newbs dont like the vets, but in 389 he does mention the ego kept in check. I think I was reacting to his ego as well, esp the terrible game solve post he made. Looking into it now, it's not actually like he's been scummy, as much as reaction testing.

My own analysis just comes down to this bandwagon making no sense, and of all the people on it, VOTE: BigTerp has the worst reason that's not even what they personally believe.

I gave reasons not only on why I moved my vote off Italiano and onto adblba, but that I was also considering moving my vote back off of adblba. It's all in the posts you referenced. You don't like those reasons, and that's fair enough. I like this vote from you better than the OMGUS one that was on TTTT at least.

[BigTerp]

I wanted to address Aspho's post because they specifically addressed me in it and put their vote there. I'm on mobile for the rest of the evening, so probably won't get caught back up until the morning.

[BigTerp]

Good Day Fam,

So, I took awhile to reread this thread and the entire sentiment that came through with it. I will first go with what I have to say; a lot of my dislike and 'scumtells' towards TTTT were just me being annoyed at the arrogance factor. With a few days of separation and a cooler head, while I still do not like their playing style, I can't honestly say I consider it that scummy. If anything, TTTT was moving the game along, even if it was through a way I don't find incredibly worthwhile.

Now, moving to the game that comes before us, I don't actually understand the adblba bandwagon. If we look through the actual votes, the first one happens by

Furtiveglance

at 81; or nearly the beginning of the game. In 265 the mention of why the vote is still on them is because of the fact they're confrontational and relying far more on mathematics/statistics over game analysis. Fair enough.

CornPuffBudha

votes for them officially on a 270 which is a continuation of 269. It's between both choices, and while they thought Italiano was the scummier of the two, they picked Abdbla. Contextually, as per the mod post on 251 it was between first place person, himself, or anyone else. Fine.

BigTerp

votes for them on 289 even though, as per 362 is just basically saying 'Italiano is the scummiest, and adblba is nullish, so we should vote adblba to get a read'. That's... weird.

Reading

adblba

's posts however don't actually come off as anything scummy to me. It's just contextual analysis of the the game through math and debating about theories, hell his entire point is made in 312. I don't think the arguements people present in the posts before (and their reasoning votes) really justify this bandwagon. it almost seems like a 'this person posts the least and when he does, its not about the stuff I want too'

Initially, my next person would be Italiano. Reading his ISO doesn't actually make him come off as scummy to me anymore, just.. arrogant. Though, I think it comes down to this -- in 405 he claims the newbs dont like the vets, but in 389 he does mention the ego kept in check. I think I was reacting to his ego as well, esp the terrible game solve post he made. Looking into it now, it's not actually like he's been scummy, as much as reaction testing.

My own analysis just comes down to this bandwagon making no sense, and of all the people on it, VOTE: BigTerp has the worst reason that's not even what they personally believe.

I gave reasons not only on why I moved my vote off Italiano and onto adblba, but that I was also considering moving my vote back off of adblba. It's all in the posts you referenced. You don't like those reasons, and that's fair enough. I like this vote from you better than the OMGUS one that was on TTTT at least.

To expand on this from last night, Asphodelus' post and subsequent vote on me takes them from a null to a town read for myself. Their post seems well thought out and an attempt to move the game along and feels like they are truly trying to scum hunt. A little hyper focused on the abdbla wagon, but with the current game state it's a logical place to start. The TTTT part seems genuine as well.

But, the biggest thing that moves them to a town read is the vote on me. I haven't received ANY heat this game so far. Most seem to have me as a solid town read. If Aspho was scum and trying to get momentum started elsewhere to protect someone on the block ( abdbla, CornPuff, Take) there are MUCH better options than putting a vote on someone who most see as town.

[BigTerp]

@Corn

What do you think on Val's tunnel on me and who do you think we should eliminate today?

Val's tunnel on you is because you're both egging each other on. It's completely stupid, and it's not just on him. I think you both are having an issue where you think fighting each other like that will result in a situation where you both reveal something, but you're just taking pot shots at each other.

Agreed!!! What I was saying here 441

[BigTerp]

At the moment I would be most comfortable eliminating Italiano, T02 or abdbla. Out of the three abdbla is the most likely to be scum to me but that may be skewed by their exceptionally low postcount. However, an Italiano or T02 flip would both give us an immense amount of information. I think there's atleast one scum in that trio, I'd be very surprised if there wasn't.

I concur with these 3 and am fine with any of them. Let's get some movement here on these 3!!!

[BigTerp]

@Malakittens

452

"Just because I say gross doesn't mean they are a scum read. i just didnt vibe with that post"

- That's a little eyebrow raising. How did you think it would be interpreted? You called a post by one of the most controversial, scumread players "gross". If you just meant you didn't "vibe with the post" (I have no idea what that means if you didn't intend to say the post was scummy), then I don't see why you would obfuscate it with a one word reply like that, in a newbie queue as well.

This is a good post as well and Mala's "gross" comment seems really weird now when they say it "doesn't mean they are a scum read. i just didnt vibe with that post" The other thing that has been interesting in Mala is 423 where they say they want to start interacting in real time because "I'm kinda bad on forming reads when i replace in." Fair enough. I made it known that I was available and formed some questions which Mala vaguely answered here 452 (6 hours later) but found the time to post here 431 with a pointless post. If they REALLY wanted to discuss in real time to help formulate some reads then why only 4 posts over 10 hours where 7 out of 8 players were active and provided an opportunity in interact in real time? Of those 4 post only 1 was remotely productive as well 452. The remainder was an unvote and these 2 completely pointless posts 469 & 431. Like I said, there were 7 players active with nearly 50 posts between the time Mala asked for in real time discussion and their last post. Really starting to look like scum to provide an excuse 423 for bad/no reads and then just coast through having zero FoS on them. And in general, pretty much nothing of substance since subbing in.

[BigTerp]

Man looking back it's insane how scummy some of Italiano's early posts seem in retrospect. But they've 180'd to a much more reasoned, townie-esque demeanor to me. Trying to figure out if this is town abandoning a dumb scumhunting tactic or a very flagrant maf pivot.

When I said I had the game figured out, what’s funny is that where I’m at now is not too far from where I was earlier. Unless I’m townreading scum I believe the solve is within Abd, Take, Aspho. Even after reading nothing has changed for me.

Could you expand on your scum reads of Abd and Aspho?

[BigTerp]

In post 441, BigTerp wrote:
abdbla's absence is the most eyebrow raising for myself. I put them to E-2 here 289. Called them out for not addressing it here 362 and suggested they getting taken to E-1 here 384. They've posted exactly twice since I put them to E-2. the second post was after I both called them out for ignoring my E-2 vote and after I suggested Italiano put them to E-1. Not a single word about any of it. Odd!!

I don't see why I would comment on it. I practically agree with the vote, and was considering trying to push up Italiano at the time you first voted me. When you called me out, it got filed away in my memory banks as "think about it more" because it just didn't make much sense to me, so I didn't respond it.

I feel like the town thing to do is to respond to things like that. Not just the vote, but then being called out for not addressing the vote and having nothing in response when someone suggests you go to E-1 seems like scum trying to avoid and, at the same time, dismiss the pressure. "it just didn't make much sense to me" isn't a good excuse to avoid it.

[BigTerp]

Mala's "gross" comment seems really weird now when they say it "doesn't mean they are a scum read. i just didnt vibe with that post"

Why is it weird? The two aren’t mutually exclusive. It’s possible to agree with scum posting or disagree with town posting if you are town. It happens all the time. I feel like a few of you are

trying

to make me scum, but you don’t actually believe it. You’re still working on how I entered the game and the early posts, etc. But this is how I arrived at where I’m at and a few of you agree with where I’ve arrived now, so not getting the seemingly forced scumread.

And several of you keeps saying “I’m okay with these three eliminations” mainly you, furtive, and Corn. I think Take needs to be resolved and is the best option today because I actually believe he is scum. I’m not gonna just let the change in attitude as well as the difference in how he is moving in this game go. My point is, don’t put Take in your limpool if you aren’t actually gonna vote for him because for reasons he is a better elimination than myself.

If someone quotes a post and comments "gross", what other interpretation would I get? If they "just didnt vibe with that post" then saying that or that they disagree is a much better way to explain it.

Yes, I'm OK currently with an elim of Italiano, Take or abdbla. But your questioning of my take on Mala's post (after others had the same sentiment) has me looking at her even a bit harder than my previous post.

Going back through TTTT who held the slot previously to Mala, I find 162, 171, 173, 178 and 185 either defending or deflecting from Italiano. TTTT is one who seems to really try and scum hunt and figure things out early. With Italiano's early odd play/posts, TTTT never directly addresses it. Just calling his read on Italiano town and trying to get Take to discuss something other than Italiano (deflect).

If Italiano flips scum, I think there is a high chance that Mala is the scum partner.

[BigTerp]

VOTE: ItalianoVD

[BigTerp]

VOTE: ItalianoVD

This puts Italiano at E-2, correct?

[BigTerp]

UNVOTE: Italiano

Been a busy evening and I'm on mobile, and won't be on again until morning. But I'd like to hear more from Italiano and Mala before I switch my vote.

[BigTerp]

Get someone to E-1 and I’ll hammer.

This is the way to go. Let Italiano be the hammer.

It looks like we are between Take and Abdbla. Now that Italiano is known town, these two are my top remaining scum reads, so no arguments from me here. I think I'd prefer abdbla but, like I said, Italiano should be the hammer. I want to take Take to E-1 here as well, get another claim, and let Italiano decide on the hammer between the two. But I'm not 100% sure on the vote count and don't want to accidentally hammer here. Hopefully catboi will get us an official count shortly.

[BigTerp]

Actually, vote count wasn't horrible to back and figure out. We've got......


Takemikazuchi02 (3): ItalianoVD, Val89, Malakittens
abdbla (4): CornPuffBuddha, Asphodelus, furtiveglance, Takemikazuchi02

Not Voting (2): BigTerp, abdbla

So disregard my previous post. Didn't consider Italiano already being on Take. So he can only switch to abdbla to hammer. Do we want Italiano off of Take and let myslef and Abdbla take them to E-1. Leaving the hammer vote solely on Italiano?

[BigTerp]

I don't think we want 2 claims at once, not that I think there's much chance of hitting PR. The thing is that Italiano is already voting Take, so if you (BigTerp) put Take at E-1 abdbla will have the hammer. I think we're waiting for abdbla to get on and claim at this point.

Yeah, I realized the issue with taking Take to E-1 after I tallied the votes. Also am not real sure, strategy wise, how effective 3 claims on the same day are. I would think that it would only benefit town. But a second town PR claim would, I guess, benefit mafia.

[BigTerp]

@Bigterp

Only the person who will be eliminated should be asked to claim. If you force both Abd and me to claim then you elim one then you've just given maf free information for the night phase.
If you want to force me to claim, do it day 2.

Fair enough, and this makes sense. I'm going to leave me vote where it is and allow abdbla the chance to claim.

[BigTerp]

Intent to hammer.

Abd doesn’t have to claim but he did say he wanted to give final thoughts so I’ll wait for that.

Looks like Abd will be gone for another 2 hours or so (they said they'd be off for 16 hours last night). In the meantime, could you share your thoughts before day 1 ends? Not really asking or looking for anything specific, but your input on the current game and remaining players will be helpful.

[BigTerp]

Not much else to say that I haven’t said already. As long as I have my bulletproof vest on tonight I should be okay.

Gotcha

[BigTerp]

I'll be V/LA for the majority of the upcoming weekend after today at 4:00 est.

[BigTerp]

Ugh, that really sucked. I'm still super annoyed by the whole E-1 BS . I thought it was E-1 when I voted.

VOTE: abdbla

Curious why you wanted Take to E-1? Also how you missed the vote count? Both were brought up several times before your hammer. Here 561 (which I specifically mentioned not wanting to accidentally hammer), and why a second claim was a bad idea here 562, here 564 and here 566.

[BigTerp]

So Asphodelus' "accidental" hammer vote, on the surface, doesn't seem like something scum would so boldly do. However, reading back through their ISO, Asphodelus has a town read on Take here 316 and then comes with this post 447 questioning the wagon on Adblba and votes for me for having "the worst reason" for my vote on Abdlba. Then here 497 is very aware of the vote count stating "But it seems at the moment he's at E-1, so waiting on claim". What's interesting here is Abdlba is, again, the one to put Italiano to E-1 without stating they put them at E-1. Asphodelus comes in only 3 minutes later well aware that Italiano is at E-1. Makes this argument 578 not hold much water. Interestingly enough just a few minutes after Adblba makes their claim and put's Take to E-1, Asphodelus puts the "accidental" hammer vote on Take. Not once since their town read on Take had Asphodelus argued anything scummy towards Take. So why take them to E-1 (or so Asphodelus thought)? The only reason I can come up with is to save Abdlba from the obvious elim that was about to happen.

So, it's not just the hammer vote on Take that has Asphodelus now in my scum pile. It's a few things......

1. The timing of their posts.
2. Understanding the importance of vote counts, yet ignoring it at the most important time.
3. Putting someone to E-1 (or so they thought) that they hadn't scum read once. Especially considering there was already discussion as to why this was not a good idea.
4. Arguing against the Abdlba wagon while also preventing that wagon from resulting in an elim (that was all but done and only waiting on a claim) by "accidentally" hammering Take minutes after Abdlba took them to E-1.
5. Turning right back around, day 2, and vote Abdlba when they had argued against the wagon on them here 447 and saying things like "Reading adblba's posts however don't actually come off as anything scummy to me." Yet they switch their vote to Abdlba here 508.

Abdlba or Asphodelus is the play day 2. For now, I'll go with VOTE: Asphodelus

[BigTerp]

I did find the disappearing act just as it became clear the day was going to end with him or T02 flipping rather scummy, and I suspected it was aimed at buying time to confer with a scum buddy before being forced to claim, as that's something I've seen in other games.

This is what I'm referencing when I mention Aspho's post timing.

[BigTerp]

Hindsight is 20/20 and I would’ve been okay with either wagon on Day 1 as I mentioned, but yeah now knowing that Take was town, that hammer and prior E-1 vote was very head scratching for me once I read it and not something I feel happened organically.

Big Terp makes a great point about Aspho’s consciousness of the votes early on, but the lack of it when it mattered.

I guess they didn’t want to hammer me for some reason or just wanted a claim, etc., especially given my scummy nature at the time (which would have been equal to Take at the time he was at E-1).

Yeah, I think we have to solve within these two slots.

Yeah, this further puts Aspho in the scum pile. They claimed they wanted you (Italiano) to be the elim over Abdbla but held off waiting for a claim. They got your claim, and when you claimed town PR, they had no choice but to move off. ZERO mention of Take being scummy in any way, but when the pressure was on Abdbla down to the wire, Aspho had no issue putting the "accidental" hammer on Take. Again, even though they never expressed scummy feels or vibes there. In fact, Aspho had Take as one of their top town reads here 316. And then 7 posts later, puts the "accidental" hammer on Take. Even if it was truly to put them to E-1, it makes no sense other than to try and get Take elim'd over abdbla.

[BigTerp]

Hey, I can easily break that solve.

Go on..........

[BigTerp]

VOTE: Asphodelus

This also applies to BigTerp but they explained their vote in better detail and it wasn't just for the hammer - if abdbla/Take was town/town, why would Aspho scummily hammer to draw attention to herself? Surely the information we got yesterday was that abdbla was saved.

Agreed. It makes ZERO sense for Aspho to even vote Take to E-1, let alone hammer. They didn't have them as a scum read, ever, and it was already discussed why getting a second player to E-1 and forcing a second claim was a bad idea. The ONLY way it makes sense is that it was to save abdbla.

[BigTerp]

Hey, I can easily break that solve.

hmmmmmm

and super hmmmmmmmmmm

at BigT

id be ok with a BigT & apb scum team

idk about asph

Please explain.

[BigTerp]

Hey, I can easily break that solve.

Still waiting. Why come in and make the above statement then disappear? It just screams scum!!!

[BigTerp]

I'd still like to hear more from Aspho, especially after their "I can easily break that solve" comment from yesterday. But, Italiano and Furtive make good points in regards to abdbla. We wanted an elim there day 1. It was wrecked with an Aspho "accidental" hammer. I still think we get the best info. from an abdbla elim today.

INTENT TO HAMMER ABDBLA

[BigTerp]

Something about the game state is making me uneasy. Not even sure I can put it into words at the moment, but something feels off.

Anyone else feel that way or is it just me?

I don't really feel this at all. I feel like we got a lot of information from the hectic end of day 1, even though we did not elim the player the majority seemed to agree with eliminating. I think the Aspho "accidental" hammer was what the scum team came up with to save abdbla. Although it was pretty much a done deal (abdbla getting elim'd) and Aspho was, for the most part, in everyone's town pile that hammer seemed a bit unnecessary IMO. But maybe Aspho felt they had already stuck their neck out enough trying to take some heat off of abdbla here 447. But then they turn around and put their vote on abdbla here 508. A bit of bussing perhaps? But once it got hot and heavy on abdbla they "accidentally" hammered take.

Nothing else I can think of makes more sense than the above scenario. Aspho says they can "break that solve", but they've since dissapeared. Which seems a bit odd. From a scum prespective, I'd expect a bit more squirming, which is exactly what abdbla seems to be doing with their LAMIST type post that Italiano pointed out.

[BigTerp]

I can see why you think that after Take's flip. As for me, I wanted abdbla yesterday so I'm feeling more optimistic. There's potential for my day 1 reads of abdbla/Take/Val containing 2 scum being correct, but more likely I townread scum day 1 - I'm looking at Aspho or maybe Mala. The gut punch would be if you had lucked out with a fake Tracker claim or BigTerp's been having me on, but I don't think those are very likely.

What's your case on Val?

[BigTerp]

I can see why you think that after Take's flip. As for me, I wanted abdbla yesterday so I'm feeling more optimistic. There's potential for my day 1 reads of abdbla/Take/Val containing 2 scum being correct, but more likely I townread scum day 1 - I'm looking at Aspho or maybe Mala. The gut punch would be if you had lucked out with a fake Tracker claim or BigTerp's been having me on, but I don't think those are very likely.

What's your case on Val?

In a vacuum has felt less scummy and grown into the game since yesterday.

It's just that I'm pretty sure abdbla is scum and Val was on the other wagon.

I agree with the bolded part. For the second part, Mala and Aspho where also on the other wagon. What are your thoughts on them?

[BigTerp]

somehow Mala is less town that Aspho to me. Since replacing TTTT (who I was pretty sure was town), Mala has gradually withered away the townread. Voting for Take and saying I'll chill with my homie Val or something seemed a bit weird at the time, then they called Val/Take town/town after Take flipped. Mala could be pocketing Val.

Asphodelus had a really weird day 1 - felt almost too weird to be scum, + the accidental hammer yesterday. That hammer definitely wasn't calculated, and I think scum might be more concious of the VC. One of those where they could be scummy town or just scum playing in a really daring way.

Sorry if these thoughts seem confused. The main thing is flip abdbla - hopefully red, then look at the nightkill/assess things tomorrow. I'm pretty sure abdbla will flip scum because there was a lot of indirect opposition to them being voted yesterday, and no one's vocally defending them today.

Thanks for the response. Pretty good stuff here and I don't find it confusing.

That hammer definitely wasn't calculated, and I think scum might be more concious of the VC. One of those where they could be scummy town or just scum playing in a really daring way.

This same thought has been in the back of my mind as well. What if Aspho's vote was a true intentional hammer? I still find it REALLY odd that they wanted to get Take to E-1 though, for reasons I've already mentioned. So, either way, that vote on Take at the end seems really scummy to me.

[BigTerp]

I can see why you think that after Take's flip. As for me, I wanted abdbla yesterday so I'm feeling more optimistic. There's potential for my day 1 reads of abdbla/Take/Val containing 2 scum being correct, but more likely I townread scum day 1 - I'm looking at Aspho or maybe Mala. The gut punch would be if you had lucked out with a fake Tracker claim or BigTerp's been having me on, but I don't think those are very likely.

What's your case on Val?

In a vacuum has felt less scummy and grown into the game since yesterday.

It's just that I'm pretty sure abdbla is scum and Val was on the other wagon.

I agree with the bolded part. For the second part, Mala and Aspho where also on the other wagon. What are your thoughts on them?

What do you think of Val/Mala/Aspho?

There's definitely scum in there - who is your best guess?

Mala/Aspho would be my guess if I'm forced to choose from those 3. Val I honestly need to go back and do some reading there and reassess. But right now, it's those two. Aspho for reasons I've already said. And Mala for the weird posts in general like here 452, 548, 554 and here 555. That last one they say "i thought i posted more, but apparently i must have thought that in another reality." So they are self aware of their sparse participation yet continue to barely be activce.

If abdbla flips red, Aspho would be my next. If abdbla flips green, I'd have to look hard at Mala. I can't imagaine scum!Aspho drawing attention to themselves by voting Take to E-1 or "accidental" hammer if abdbla is town.

[BigTerp]

somehow Mala is less town that Aspho to me. Since replacing TTTT (who I was pretty sure was town), Mala has gradually withered away the townread. Voting for Take and saying I'll chill with my homie Val or something seemed a bit weird at the time, then they called Val/Take town/town after Take flipped. Mala could be pocketing Val.

Asphodelus had a really weird day 1 - felt almost too weird to be scum, + the accidental hammer yesterday. That hammer definitely wasn't calculated, and I think scum might be more concious of the VC. One of those where they could be scummy town or just scum playing in a really daring way.

Sorry if these thoughts seem confused. The main thing is flip abdbla - hopefully red, then look at the nightkill/assess things tomorrow. I'm pretty sure abdbla will flip scum because there was a lot of indirect opposition to them being voted yesterday, and no one's vocally defending them today.

Thanks for the response. Pretty good stuff here and I don't find it confusing.

That hammer definitely wasn't calculated, and I think scum might be more concious of the VC. One of those where they could be scummy town or just scum playing in a really daring way.

This same thought has been in the back of my mind as well. What if Aspho's vote was a true intentional hammer? I still find it REALLY odd that they wanted to get Take to E-1 though, for reasons I've already mentioned. So, either way, that vote on Take at the end seems really scummy to me.

Thing is there are only 2 scum. so abdbla/Val/Mala/Aspho has at least 2 town somehow. Hard to find them at the moment

Which elim do you think gives us the most information? abdbla?

[BigTerp]

So they are self aware of their sparse participation yet continue to barely be activce.

You should know, as I alluded to in my earlier post today that in every game I've ever played with Mala (and any I've read featuring her, to the best of my recollection), lurking it out is how she plays this game as both alignments. You can theorise why she does so, but the fact it is very difficult therefore to draw conclusions on her lack of activity, and the lack of activity means it is very difficult to move her out of nullzone.

I locked her in as scum pretty early in our last game, but only because I was essentially informed there was scum between Mala and another player, and I landed on a good townread on that other slot, not because she actually did much particularly scummy.

If I am uncomfortable about the game-state, it is that read in particular that concerns me, particularly given two facts - one, the abundant references to my own slot that others seemed to have picked up on now (furtive suggests it might be buddying, where as I think it might be an attempt to tie a false associative in case she did flip) and secondly, the fact the last post we had appears to throw out a read on BigTerp that is contrary to basically every other one I've seen given and the one I hold myself, and it has gone unexplained.

Either that is scum!Mala trying to stoke some paranoia, or town!Mala is seeing something we aren't, and in both cases we ought to do our best to resolve that now, because in the case of the former, that means the Abdbla/Aspho solve isn't correct and while I'm confident enough in my PoE that wouldn't be an issue if I were choosing the lims, I recognize that I am not the sole arbiter here; and in the case of the second, we ought to hear what she has to say in case there isn't an opportunity when it matters.

INTENT TO HAMMER ABDBLA

I don't want to hold the game hostage here, but hold your horses BigTerp is what I am trying to say. I think you are town, and you don't want to give scum a reason to throw shade your way is abdbla does flip green.

Thanks for the clarification on Mala's play. I missed that from your previous post. Which reminds me, I need to go back and vet your posts. You seem to be the most "insignificant" player this game for me. Not particularly towny, but also not scummy. Overall a tough read, I guess is what I'm saying.

I don't disagree with the majority of your post. But I still believe a abdbla flip, either green or red, gives us the best information moving forward.

[BigTerp]

I don't want to hold the game hostage here, but hold your horses BigTerp is what I am trying to say. I think you are town, and you don't want to give scum a reason to throw shade your way is abdbla does flip green.

In fact, given that Mala is pairing you with abdbla, that applies whichever way the flip goes.

Yeah, I'm not sure where that is coming from. I'd like to hear Mala's reasoning here just as much as you.

But I'm not really sure what you mean by "that applies whichever way the flip goes."

[BigTerp]

But I still believe a abdbla flip, either green or red, gives us the best information moving forward.

I'm not disputing that as a general notion, and while I am voting Aspho myself, I would be perfectly happy with flipping abdbla today myself.

I asking you to consider in right

NOW

is the best time for it, particularly if it gives scum the opportunity to say something like "Look, BigTerp ended the day to stop Mala from explaining whats pinging her about BigTerp! Must be scum!"

I wouldn't buy it personally, but you don't know who might.

Fair enough.

[BigTerp]

BigTerp, are you still here?

I am back and just got caught up. I don't disagree with your argument that more information is better. I'd like to hear more from Aspho and Mala. Both being absent has me scratching my head though.

I do think the worry of a self hammer is a little overblown. Sure, it would cease discussion for the rest of the day, but it would also eliminate 1 mafia, which is the objective of the town. I think keeping it at E-1 will generate more and better discussion.

[BigTerp]

So Mala's Meta seems to be lurky/absent. Fair enough. But what about Aspho? They have the second least amount of posts. Behind only Mala who was subbed in. Not only the lurking/absent behavior, but the fact that after Aspho "accidentally" hammered a town player at the 11th hour they've made a grand total of 2 posts since. 2 whole posts!!! Wouldn't a town player be a little more involved after causing that sort of twist in the game? Those 2 posts where a "Ugh, that really sucked" followed by a vote on abdbla, who Aspho was previously defending as I've already pointed out. And a second post of how "I can easily break that solve". Now complete silence. The more I look into it, the scummier and scummier Aspho seems.

[BigTerp]

I am back and just got caught up. I don't disagree with your argument that more information is better. I'd like to hear more from Aspho and Mala. Both being absent has me scratching my head though.

I do think the worry of a self hammer is a little overblown. Sure, it would cease discussion for the rest of the day, but it would also eliminate 1 mafia, which is the objective of the town. I think keeping it at E-1 will generate more and better discussion.

That seems a little contradictory to me. More information is better, but you think abdbla is mafia and we should give said mafia, rather than town, the opportunity to chose the precise moment when today ends?

My reason for calling on you was to suggest that, even in the event that furtive doesn't trust me, although I am making a public commitment, then either one of us can promise to lend our vote to flipping abdbla with furtive as soon as certain condition are met. For me, those conditions would be Mala having the chance to explain her 610, or make it clear by her continued absence from the thread she does not intend to so; Aspho having the opportunity to explain whatever it was she thinks proves she isn't partnered with Abdbla, or likewise demonstrate her intention not to do so, and in the meantime allow abdbla to spew whatever, or else demonstrate that 638 is all they have left to say.

A public commitment that at least two slots stand ready to coordinate and intend a hammer at a moments notice should force the players to continue generating more and better discussion as if they were at E-1, without permitting scum control over that timing, no?

As it stands right now, this game can end at literally any second, and catboi can lock the thread any second after that. Control of when that happens is currently in the hands of: You, me, Mala, and abdbla. Both of us, and furtive apparently, believe there is at least one scum in that pile, and if it's abdbla there is literally NOTHING they have to lose by pulling that trigger. You don't have any power to change that dynamic anyhow, but you can help me try and convince someone who does.

To furtive: do you actually have any reasonable objection to hearing out Mala, Aspho and abdbla on those topics, if only for the spew it might grant us going forward?

What I'm saying is if abdbla self hammers the ultimate goal of eliminating mafia has been met. So a self hammer there doesn't bother me in the least. But if in the meantime we can get some more discussion out of those you mentioned, then yeah, great. I'm just not going to hold my breath on abdbla self hammering when they would obviously be mafia at that point.

I'm willing to redact my intent to hammer until we give Mala and Aspho the chance to contribute and address their particular posts.

[BigTerp]

No, the ultimate goal is eliminate both mafia.

I get it. But saying how detrimental a scum self hammer would be seems a little dramatic to me. I understand we need to eliminate both. I agree that more discussion is better. But ousting 1 of the scum team, even if self-induced by a self hammer, is not something I see as so drastically terrible as you're presenting.

[BigTerp]

I think the problem I have with the gamestate is how seemingly 'easy' it is.

We were wrong about Take and I feel like scum jumped on it. Now I think we're being lead down a wrong path again. Maybe it is just that simple and it's Abd and Aspho or

someone else

, however we only have 2 miselims before we lose and if they are both town, well good game scum.

I don't have the time right now, but I need to rethink everything. Scum may have been in the forefront the entire time.

UNVOTE: Abdbla

I tend to disagree. I feel like the deafening silence from the two that are getting the hardest FOS is indicative of scum. Obviously, I could be wrong, but I feel like a town player in either of their shoes (Aspho/abdbla) would have a LOT more to say after the events at the end of day 1. abdbla at least attempted a few posts. But they feel rather contrived and overdone, especially here 605. I just really don't see how day 1 ends the way it does without both or at least 1, being scum.

[BigTerp]

Maybe it is just that simple and it's Abd and Aspho or

someone else

, however we only have 2 miselims before we lose and if they are both town, well good game scum.

To expand on this, if one is scum is the other? If one is town is the other town or scum? The reason I ask this is because I'm coming to the conclusion that Aspho is scum regardless of how abdbla flips. I still don't think the hammer was accidental, but say that abdbla is town. It would be EXTREMELY bold for scum!Aspho to hammer Take knowing both Take and abdbla are town. Why not let that play itself out? Mafia is getting a miselim either way. But it would essentially clear Aspho considering abdbla would get quickly run up again day 2, which Aspho started with by taking your (Italiano) lead and voting abdbla right away. Once abdbla flipped town, everyone would then buy the "accidental" hammer vote as a true mistake and we'd all start looking elsewhere and putting Aspho back into the town pile. Not a terrible plan and something that might actually work out when 2 town are up for elim day 1.

Now, if abdbla flips red, I think it more than confirms Aspho as scum. The obvious save at the end of day 1 being the reason.

[BigTerp]

It's a moot point now anyhow. How detrimental a self-hammer would be is a point of general play that is apparently not as obvious to new players as I thought it would be; since it has slipped you, furtive and perhaps abdbla themselves, by.

If you are interested, we can discuss it post-game, since to discuss it fully now would a) be a distraction that is irrelevant now Italiano has taken the required action I was advocating for, and b) would require discussion of the roles of town PRs that may risk slipping information still relevant to this game we ought to avoid.

Alright.

[BigTerp]

I feel like the deafening silence from the two that are getting the hardest FOS is indicative of scum.

I feel like the deafening silence from the two that are getting the hardest FOS is indicative of scum.

1. The elimination on me is nigh-inevitable. I don't even think that swerving off of it is particularly valuable, because I think scum would have an easier time getting a mislim other than me prior to my flip than after.
2. I made a post, but it was ignored as "spew", "analysis without conclusion" (which I take some offense to, I still think it looks suspicious for Val), or as you put it, "contrived and overdone". I've considered the idea that at this point, the amount of plausible scumteams is low enough that a full-game analysis of an assumed scum team for each one would be possible, but I don't think it would have any impact, no matter what it is. As far as the current day goes, I think it would be dismissed as scummy. Maybe the next day it would be useful, once I've been flipped, but I'm in no rush to get it out due to that.

For what it's worth, I think the idea that Aspho planned this gambit with the idea that they'd be cleared by my flip to be a little contrived. You think they planned that out in the 5 minutes they had after I posted? Unlikely,in my opinion.

1 - I certainly don't think it's inevitable. Val89 is promoting getting off of you to promote more discussion, Italiano is questioning his hard scum read on you and I just made a case for Aspho over you. Where do you get that you getting the axe today is inevitable?

2 - I didn't intend any offense, if that's what you got from my post. I don't understand the sensitivity here. It's a game, players think you're one of the bad guys and call out your post as a bad guy post. You can certainly disagree and present other arguments/ideas, but I see you've already decided not to do that. That could be frustrated town, or more likely IMO, smart scum not wanting to provide any more information. I'd be interested to hear what you have to say. I might again call it "contrived" or "overdone". But if you think it helps down down the road, why not share? If town wins, you win, even if eliminated day 1 or 2. Holding that back just makes you look more scummy.

Sure, the Aspho hammer with you being town is a little far fetched. But Aspho had plenty of time to think that through. It was between yourself and Take for awhile, with only you, me and Aspho left to vote. Your vote was obviously going on Take. And as soon as that happened in swooped Aspho with the hammer to either complete the scenario I described or to save you (abdbla) from elim. Either way, Aspho is scum.

[BigTerp]

It's not about "swerving off it". It's about leaving a legacy. You are representing to us that you are town, and your nigh-inevitable elimination (in your eyes) will be a mislim; so give us something to look back on if that happens.

This. Scum are who just pack it in and stop contributing when they think they are getting elim'd. A town player should at least share their thoughts because, as Val said, it gives the rest of the town something to look back on and analyze from a known town player.

I see now that abdbla did share their thoughts. Much appreciated.

[BigTerp]

Good Day Fam,

I've had a busy couple of days and I've just been mentally checked out. I want to mention that the time that the vote happened was during 1pm est, and on my lunch break. I was reading the game on mobile. There's actually a post that's supposed to have happened before Abdbla's, which was a mod post that was basically "VC TO BE HERE", and then abdbla's post that came with it. I was reading his thing during that moment, and didn't notice the whole 'voting take' thing at the beginning since I found the stuff after more interesting. I just didn't notice the vote in comparison to the rest of the post.

As per my own thoughts, I'm pretty sure Terp is just scum. It's a super hard push to the obvious elim's and to both ends at that. Even more so since scum just really needs two more mislims, afaik.

VOTE: Terp

I mean, obvious elim's are, well, obvious. Not sure why me pushing for the "obvious" one(s) is indicative of scum. I could be accused of getting a little tunnel vision there, but again, that doesn't resonate as scummy to me.

abdbla was a top scum read towards the end of day 1. Your "accidental" hammer, after expressing your dislike for the abdbla wagon put yourself into a position to look scummy. So yeah, I was pushing for yourself and abdbla because you were both my top scum reads.

Oh. Yeah, sorry, I thought it was obvious. I'm the other PR role in the game. I roleblocked/protected Italiano last night, since the way I saw it was that he was either the target, or would be roleblocked anyway, and both routes would reveal we're in a game with a Mafia Roleblocker

assuming

the tracker actually exists.

I didn't realize i had to explicitly state it -- Jailor here. I'd love to hear any CC's.

No CC fomr me, but I'm with Val here. Why would this be obvious? I don't think I want to discuss specific PR's, but going back through the possible combinations after Italiano's claim and subsequent night 1 actions, I was far from confident as to what setup we were in. I do see now how the "no result" indicates a roleblocker. At the time though, I thought it just meant Italiano targeted someone with no abilities. Either way, why would we assume YOU were the Jailkeeper?

[BigTerp]

I'm not sure why you would assume that was obvious.

If the claim is legit, and I'm not quite ready to buy that until that everyone else has checked in, albeit a potential fake claim here seems a tiny bit premature to my eyes, then I think that's further evidence against the scum!Italiano theory.

I mean it'd be a stupid claim to make if it wasn't true.

Agree that it would be a dumb fake claim at this point in the game. I can't really think of any reason why scum!Aspho would fake claim here. If trying again to protect abdbla, they have just outed themselves and would be found out with plenty of time for town to secure the win.

Aspho - I do wonder why you decided now was a good time to claim though? Any specific reason other than your response of "I can easily break that solve" to my solve of yourself and abdbla? You are currently at E-2, but with only 2 votes. One from myself and the other from Val who has been begging for everyone to back off of E-1 votes and give players a chance to further discuss things. Just seems like you had plenty of time to claim later, if even needed.

[BigTerp]

Because I was part of the informed minority and forgot that meant what was obvious to me isn't obvious to the majority.

Alright, I suppose.

Do you have any other reason to scum read me besides my "pushing" for the obvious elim's early in day 2? If I'm scum, who's my partner?

I still don't quite understand your play. You advocated for abdbla at the end of day 1. Came in and took Take to E-1, which ended up being an accidental hammer thus preventing the inevitable elim of abdbla. Mistake, fair enough. But you obviously liked Take for the elim over abdbla. Start of day 2 you immediately vote abdbla, without reason. You've now switched your vote to me, which at least you have given reasons for.

If you're the Jailkeeper, which we'll find out for certain soon enough, I just don't understand your play. It comes across as strange and a bit disorganized. And I don't mean that as an insult or anything, it's just the way I'm reading your play. Can you help me understand the above?

[BigTerp]

So then we get to the possibility of scumteams that don't include Asph. Call me if I'm wrong, but to me the most effective strategy here would be to eliminate Asph and I. The whole hammering discussion earlier really made me think of this. I'm not sure if it implicates anyone. I'm also not sure I like furtive's complete disregard for the self-hammer. As I've seen mentioned in several games, "informed perspective?"?

Thanks for agreeing to share your thoughts rather than whither away with the threat of being eliminated.

I read all of it, but want to address the above. Now that Asp has claimed a PR, do you still think eliminating yourself today is the best move? Why? If not, who would you suggest for the elim today?

[BigTerp]

UNVOTE: Asphodelus

[BigTerp]

Hey, I can easily break that solve.

The reason why I “hmmm” at this because it felt like a soft for some PR.

Hey, I can easily break that solve.

Go on..........

This really bothered me. You should be experienced enough to know not to push a soft hence my scum read here...

Hey, I can easily break that solve.

hmmmmmm

and super hmmmmmmmmmm

at BigT

id be ok with a BigT & apb scum team

idk about asph

Please explain.

Hey, I can easily break that solve.

Still waiting. Why come in and make the above statement then disappear? It just screams scum!!!

Lolnope

Something about the game state is making me uneasy. Not even sure I can put it into words at the moment, but something feels off.

Anyone else feel that way or is it just me?

BigT is definitely scum here

Never picked up on the "soft" claim whatsoever. And, FWIW, this is only my second game since I last played in 2013(ish). Not using inexperience as an excuse, but I'm far from experienced in this game.

I was a hard scum read on Aspho after the way day 1 ended. They put that on themselves, however. Called them out and they responded with what were now saying is a "soft" claim. Seems unnecessary at that point in the game, but that's on me for not picking up on it I guess. I still feel the Aspho claim was too early. I believe I was really the only one putting pressure there. Why the need to claim so soon?

You're reading way to much into my interrogation of Aspho. I've explained it a few times already, and I would think even you can see how I drew a scum conclusion from their play at the end of day 1.

[BigTerp]

Interesting stuff from Val above.

Val - Does abdbla's post seem, to you, like they are coming from an informed player? If abdbla is scum, who is their partner?

Mala - If you got the soft claim from Aspho here 603 why did you say IDK about Aspho here 610?

Val makes good points in regards to your criticism of myself but no mention of Val's suspicion of Aspho as well. I'd like to hear your reasons there.

[BigTerp]

Val - Does abdbla's post seem, to you, like they are coming from an informed player? If abdbla is scum, who is their partner?

Yes, that's the whole gist of my post above. Abdbla has been scummy enough to have been a leading wagon, on the absolute cusp of a flip, on both days. We know town can act scummy, we've seen it already this game, but if abdbla is town that'll be the

3rd

scummy newbtown slot. The difference with this one is, when pushed specifically to do so, this scummy slot has come up with some excellent insight contrary to how I was feeling about the game, that despite being quite wild to me based on the gamestate, has actually proven to be spot on. I say that, overall, being informed explains the pattern of behavior better than the alternative, particular as I think town would have shared that earlier than waiting, particular as I feel now that had I not intervened to delay the lim, we would never have seen that.

I might have bought, in isolation "I default to town!Aspho because I can't find a scum partner for her that makes sense", but when dealing with the scummy behavior arguments for scum!Aspho independently without considering the partner in paragraph 3, as I explained, the argument seems circular and contrary to what I think a logical town mindset would arrive at unless you were starting from the perspective of explaining that behavior knowing it was coming from town; but it also seems to reserve the right to push Aspho for being "more than a little suspicious", and also you for advancing an argument that is "a little unconvincing". In other words, it's fencesitty on the actual heart of the matter.

With respect to the partner, I think it's a little premature to be engaging in pre-flips, but I don't see any reason why Mala would advance the solve of BigT & abdbla, then charge after the more widely townread half of that pair, which is why I asked her what I have.

pedit: OK, I see we might have an answer to that point.

Thanks. I mentioned earlier that abdbla's post here 605 seemed rather contrived and overdone. And now that you've read it as informed, and explained it well, it makes a lot of sense.

[BigTerp]

JV is an uncc’d pr.

I'm not entirely sure how I feel about this one.

I'm not even sure who JV is??

[BigTerp]

Just to be sure, you aren't an alt of JacksonVirgo are you, Italiano? That was Mala getting mixed up with a previous game?

Nevermind my previous post. Looks like Mala got Italiano's alt mixed up?

[BigTerp]

So abdl is the lim i want.

My Poe as follows: {BigT, abdl &. FG}
I’m less likely to lim FG over the first two.

So you vote Take over abdbla day 1. Take gets miselim'd.
Day 2 you say I'm "definitely scum" here 680, yet you prefer an abdbla elim over myself?

Help me understand your thinking here.

[BigTerp]

I won't be around much more today/this evening, so I'll share my current thoughts.

Ashpo/Italiano - PR claims. With zero CC's and the probability of their being one at this point almost nill, we have two town here.

Val89 - Has REALLY been trying to move the game along and game solve. Most notably since the start of day 2. They have some of the same thoughts as myself. Really strong town read here.

Furtiveglance - Again, a really tough read for me. I don't know what it is here, and I've mentioned it before, but I had the same issue getting a solid read in my head from our previous game together. Something is still keeping me from calling them full blown town. Maybe it's the slight tunneling on abdbla, but their arguments make sense. They also seem to be trying to move the game along, much like Val89. They also have been fingering my biggest remaining scum read in abdbla. Slight null to strong town read.

Mala -Mostly by process of elimination I have this slot teamed up with abdbla. But also for reasons I mentioned here 684 and here 695. Scum read

abdbla - My top scum read. I softened my read here a bit in favor of Aspho after the ending of day1. But since the Aspho claim abdbla is back to the top of my scum pile. I've expressed my thoughts here enough, that I don't feel it's necessary to reiterate.

This puts abdbla to E-2

VOTE: abdbla

If abdbla flips green, I honestly don't know where to go from there.

[BigTerp]

The Italiano/Asph solve haunts me - which, for the record, equally possible at the moment, considering it had to coexist with a non-jailkeeper setup

Assuming this a typo, because it is an

im

possible solve.
UNVOTE:

...yes, yes it is.

sometimes the brain works in mysterious ways.

I think this was quite smart. Instead of engaging in WIFOM about your possible partners, you've sussed the 2 (pretty much) confirmed players. Nice

Okay, I'm well aware that I look scummy. There's at least one more scum, though. Who do you think my partner is? Assuming, in the far fetched land of impossibility, that I flip green, who do you think the scumteam is?

Regardless of your alignment I owe you an answer to this.

Right now I'm running on abdbla/Malakittens. The Take vote yesterday was scummy, I don't think Terp would have stayed on you if you were paired yesterday. The Val/Take shittunneling seemed to be more authentic than Malakittens' reasoning, which was a townread on Val (chill with homie flashback). So I think that doubled as a save partner/pocket town play. But I'm not set on Malakittens. I am set on you being scum. In some far-fetched alternate reality in which you were town (lol), if you really want to keep using this very theoretical line of defence, I would have to re-evaluate the game completely. Like I said before I don't think Val/Mala works unless they're both playing very level 1, Mala pushing Terp doesn't really look paired either so it would have to be Val/BigTerp in that case... but that's not the case.

To be fair, I wasn't on abdbla at the end of day 1. I was actually the only one not voting. I was last on abdbla here 289 which put them to E-2. I was hoping it would generate discussion. When it did not, I switched my vote to Italiano then back off after their claim. It remained off of anyone the rest of the day.

[BigTerp]

You've scumread abdbla for the majority of the game though, and put votes behind it.

Correct. Was just pointing out where my vote was at the end of day 1, which was not on abdbla. Just clarifying, that's all.

[BigTerp]

So then we get to the possibility of scumteams that don't include Asph. Call me if I'm wrong, but to me the most effective strategy here would be to eliminate Asph and I. The whole hammering discussion earlier really made me think of this. I'm not sure if it implicates anyone. I'm also not sure I like furtive's complete disregard for the self-hammer. As I've seen mentioned in several games, "informed perspective?"?

Thanks for agreeing to share your thoughts rather than whither away with the threat of being eliminated.

I read all of it, but want to address the above. Now that Asp has claimed a PR, do you still think eliminating yourself today is the best move? Why? If not, who would you suggest for the elim today?

I completely forgot to respond to this, but the largest reason for why the self-elim is something I'm a proponent of is because if someone else is lim'd, then I honestly think Town loses. I'm too easy of an elimination going in to elo. So, yes, I still think I should be eliminated. We'll (probably) lose one of the locktowns due to the nightkill, though not sure who between Italiano and Asph, but I don't think thats a huge deal when considering the big picture.

Personally, I think furtive would be my pick for elimination. The Val/furtive scumteam seems unlikely in my eyes, the interactions they had D1 regarding previous influences and the T02 read seems too big to be a coordinated effort, and a little dangerous at that. Terp/furtive and Mala/furtive both seem roughly equally likely, the Mala scumteam just because Mala is scummy, the Terp scumteam because in light of a red-flip on furtive the "I just can't properly read furtive but I think they're town" thing you've mentioned several times seems very suspicious.

Val/Mala is also unlikely, mainly because I think the whole deal with Mala dropping Val's name several times early on is too attention grabbing. The gain, if they're scum, compared to just... not doing it? It seems minimal. If it's Val/Terp, then I'll concede that my reads are garbage and I deserve to lose. Mala/Terp... maybe? I'd have to abandon all the towncred Terp's gotten over the past two days, and there's no significant connective tissue that makes me think it's likelier than any other scumteam, so I'm disregarding it.

Basically, I don't see a scumteam that doesn't have furtive in it. I might be missing something, of course, I literally just suggested that Asph could simultaneously be scum and Jailkeeper, so perhaps a grain of salt is in order.

For the first part of your response, you've been advocating for your self elim since here 472 when I asked you why you didn't respond to me putting you to E-2 here 289. So you're saying you agreed with my vote on you WAY back at 289? And all this time, you still think eliminating you is the way to go? I can see where a scummy looking town player would submit to that at this point in the game. But to agree with my vote on you that far back when the gamestate was pretty much a pissing/shouting match between 2 or 3 players seems really really odd.

You haven't mentioned furtive as scum at all. In fact here 575 is the last you really mention any sort of read on them. And it's "null-ish". Interesting you now cannot see a scumteam without furtive.

You seem to be all over the place at this point. Suggesting numerous scum teams, but almost always distancing yourself from those reads by saying things like "I might be missing something, of course" or really just say a whole lot of nothing by saying things like "On one hand......But, on the other hand". Just all seems like ways to avoid giving any sort of information for town to look back on once you flip red, but still being able to look as if you're really working the game and trying to sort things out.

[BigTerp]

I think Mala put my view on why I thought it was obvious out pretty well. I did do a pretty strong soft claim. My issue with Terp though is I feel like they're smart enough to realize it, and it's not explicitly an OMGUS vote I have against them. It's more to the extent if I was playing on Scum, I'd try to get myself eliminated just as much, since they'd only need one elim and then one NK to enter Elo.

Personally?

I think it's between Terp, FG, and Mala.

Of the three, I view Terp as the biggest one.

I don't really see why people view abdbla as scummy at the moment. WOuld someone enlighten me?

I honestly did not even come close to picking up on your soft claim. I think the main reason was your accidental hammer on Take that really threw me off. I instantly read that as a really scummy move and zeroed in on yourself and abdbla as scum partners.

I'll still got Furtive in my back pocket. He's a really tough read for me. Has been rather tunnelish on abdbla, but I also view them as my top scum read, so I cannot disagree there.

Mala would be my best guess as the second Mafia if abdbla flips red. If abdbla flips green, which I think is highly unlikely, then I'll be at a lose.

After Italiano and Ashpo, Val is my biggest town read. If they are scum, they've played an excellent game!!

I've given many reasons for my scum read on abdbla. Val has given many as well, especially as of late. Now that you ask though, I can't think of many specific reasons Furtive has given for his read on abdbla. I need to go back and read through Frutive's ISO, but their case on abdbla is currently rather thin just going on memory.

[BigTerp]

While I think Abd is probably the best elimination for today, I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if he was town and scum was actually in the Val/Terp/Furtive pool. The issue I’m having is finding a great enough reason to go against popular opinion. Most of it is my crazy mind formulating all types of scenarios and whatnot. Eh

What are your thoughts on Mala? If abdbla flips red, I've got them as their scum partner.

[BigTerp]

But to also think that maybe Abd is not scum is flowing heavily in my mind as well. This is why I’ve been saying I don’t really like the gamestate and where it is.

I can't say I haven't had some wild scenarios running through my head. But I still fall back on abdbla being scum. With that, I can't imagine Furtive, and to a lesser extent, Val being the partner.

[BigTerp]

<snip>

For the first part of your response, you've been advocating for your self elim since here 472 when I asked you why you didn't respond to me putting you to E-2 here 289. So you're saying you agreed with my vote on you WAY back at 289? And all this time, you still think eliminating you is the way to go? I can see where a scummy looking town player would submit to that at this point in the game. But to agree with my vote on you that far back when the gamestate was pretty much a pissing/shouting match between 2 or 3 players seems really really odd.

You haven't mentioned furtive as scum at all. In fact here 575 is the last you really mention any sort of read on them. And it's "null-ish". Interesting you now cannot see a scumteam without furtive.

You seem to be all over the place at this point. Suggesting numerous scum teams, but almost always distancing yourself from those reads by saying things like "I might be missing something, of course" or really just say a whole lot of nothing by saying things like "On one hand......But, on the other hand". Just all seems like ways to avoid giving any sort of information for town to look back on once you flip red, but still being able to look as if you're really working the game and trying to sort things out.

I didn't think a self-elim was the way to go back in 472, I just agreed with the idea of pushing up one of the scummier players to generate discussion. As I said, I was considering pushing up Italiano at that point to see if something couldn't be pulled form that. The self-elim is predicated on the fact that we're moving into elo the next day, I'm not being suicidal for the sake of it.

You're entirely correct that my read on furtive has changed over the course of this day. It's even changed over the course of the last real life day. But, ignoring that, Val has moved up in my ratings a fair bit. T02 is dead. Ignoring myself and the two PR's, there's only four people. I just went through all of the scumteams I think were likely. Furtive came out bad through that lens.

The scumteams were presented because they are a component of my furtive argument. Ignoring myself, do you see a scumteam that doesn't include furtive?

I'm not "distancing" from my reads, I'm just expressing doubt in my own ability to analyse the game. It's not like the information changes because I said "I'm not super confident in these conclusions", I still made the same basic arguments: I think furtive is scum, and my two picks for scumpartner is Mala or you. The partner read isn't groundbreaking, I guess, I'm practically just excluding Val from the partner.

Thanks for the response.

To address the bolded part above no, I do not see a scum team without Furtive if you flip green. Val would be my second in that scenario. If you flip red, Mala is next.

[BigTerp]

I am going to be away for the long weekend. I realize that the deadline for this gamedays lim will fall in that time period, and perhaps this is just vain, selfish hope to justify to myself stepping away at this point, I am apparently much more confident than others that we won't be going into an ELO tomorrow and we still have time.

Admittedly, recent posting, and in particular the middle part of 699 has made me slightly less sure, but it's come just a little bit too late for me, and it also comes amongst other things that still ping me I've avoided listing each and every time they've occurred to me in an attempt to keep the flow of information coming and avoid another T02 situation - but for an example, I wasn't too keen on the 'here is a complicated diagram related to the vote counts, trust me, Val looks bad from this', but when pushed to explain (and I note I had to be the one to do so) the response was 'oh. my bad, it doesn't', particularly when I'm not seeing how that mistake reasonably arose from the explanation given. I've also blown my freebie bad read on T02 this game.

I might have a chance (i hope I do!) to make another post before I switch off completely, but I need to pick the kids up now. Just in case I don't get a chance to come back to thread before Tuesday:

VOTE: abdbla

ABDBLA IS AT E-1. Next vote will hammer.

If abdbla flips red, who do you have as their scum partner? What if they flip green, where are you looking then?

[BigTerp]

My issue with Terp though is I feel like they're smart enough to realize it, and it's not explicitly an OMGUS vote I have against them. It's more to the extent if I was playing on Scum, I'd try to get myself eliminated just as much

Just to address this for a moment, because it is a newbie game and what is or isn't OMGUS has come up a few times, but the justification you've given here explicitly

is

OMGUS.

If you say "If I was scum, I would vote for me because I am probably an easy mislim here" knowing you are town, and then follow that thought process with "X is therefore scum, because they voted for me", that is exactly what OMGUS is. The missing piece is that town!X doesn't know you are town.

I mean, I think the argument is rather that the chance of Terp missing the soft claim and continuing to push Asph is low, meaning that the other event that could've happened - Terp being scum and continuing the push for a hardclaim or a mislim - is high.

I don't really think this is the case, though? I missed that it was a softclaim, personally, and even if Terp is scum, what does he gain from a hardclaim? He could already figure out Asph was the jailkeeper by process of elimination, since they know what column we're in. A mislim, too, was very low chance, because Asph always had the option of hardclaim, which essentially clears her. I don't think it's particularly towntell, but it's certainly not scummy.

Well said.

I'm starting to soften my stance here on abdbla a bit. If they are scum, right now is the perfect opportunity to help gain steam with a wagon on myself and get a miselim. Instead, abdbla basically does the opposite above by making sense of my push on Ashp after the soft claim.. Ashp and Mala both have me as their top scum reads and a Mala vote seems forthcoming. I've been waiting on someone else to join in on that, especially if abdbla is scum. But things seem pretty stale, which hints to me that scum is currently happy with where things are. I need to do some reevaluating, but in the meantime........UNVOTE:

[BigTerp]

Just want to reiterate, before I'll be LA until tomorrow morning (EST), that the lack of movement, lack of discussion and overall quite nature this game has taken really has me thinking that Mafia are very comfortable with the current gamestate.

Mala and Furtive are gaining quite a bit of interest from me in that respect.

[BigTerp]

My issue with Terp though is I feel like they're smart enough to realize it, and it's not explicitly an OMGUS vote I have against them. It's more to the extent if I was playing on Scum, I'd try to get myself eliminated just as much

Just to address this for a moment, because it is a newbie game and what is or isn't OMGUS has come up a few times, but the justification you've given here explicitly

is

OMGUS.

If you say "If I was scum, I would vote for me because I am probably an easy mislim here" knowing you are town, and then follow that thought process with "X is therefore scum, because they voted for me", that is exactly what OMGUS is. The missing piece is that town!X doesn't know you are town.

I mean, I think the argument is rather that the chance of Terp missing the soft claim and continuing to push Asph is low, meaning that the other event that could've happened - Terp being scum and continuing the push for a hardclaim or a mislim - is high.

I don't really think this is the case, though? I missed that it was a softclaim, personally, and even if Terp is scum, what does he gain from a hardclaim? He could already figure out Asph was the jailkeeper by process of elimination, since they know what column we're in. A mislim, too, was very low chance, because Asph always had the option of hardclaim, which essentially clears her. I don't think it's particularly towntell, but it's certainly not scummy.

Well said.

I'm starting to soften my stance here on abdbla a bit. If they are scum, right now is the perfect opportunity to help gain steam with a wagon on myself and get a miselim. Instead, abdbla basically does the opposite above by making sense of my push on Ashp after the soft claim.. Ashp and Mala both have me as their top scum reads and a Mala vote seems forthcoming. I've been waiting on someone else to join in on that, especially if abdbla is scum. But things seem pretty stale, which hints to me that scum is currently happy with where things are. I need to do some reevaluating, but in the meantime........UNVOTE:

Just want to reiterate, before I'll be LA until tomorrow morning (EST), that the lack of movement, lack of discussion and overall quite nature this game has taken really has me thinking that Mafia are very comfortable with the current gamestate.

Mala and Furtive are gaining quite a bit of interest from me in that respect.

As I said. Mafia was clearly comfortable with the way things were going towards the end of day 2. Mala and Furtive in particular where no where to be seen as it got more and more obvious that abdbla was going to be the elim.

I'm having a little bit of trouble seeing Furtive as scum here. He's been pushing HARD on abdbla since day 1. Not sure what to think about that sort of tunneling from scum!Furtive.

Mala has been lurking ALL game. Coming in here and there with little to nothing in terms of the context of their posts. But I was made aware that this seems to be Mala's meta, and isn't necessarily indicative of alignment. I am a little surprised as to how they accepted Aspho's accidental hammer at the end of day 1. However, they say they picked up on the soft claim immediately. Was that coming from an informed player? I'm not sure. I do feel like they were keeping myself in their back pocket and ready to follow Aspho's lead to get me eliminated if needed (if the pressure on abdbla let up).

As far as Val goes, they were really trying to generate discussion and get things going day 2. Especially after I made my intent to hammer abdbla. Seemed pretty townish the way they were playing, but I could see how it could come across as a lot of LAMIST type post though.

Got some things I need to go back through. But right now, I've got Mala as my #1 and Furtive/Val tied at #2.

[BigTerp]

You've scumread abdbla for the majority of the game though, and put votes behind it.

Going back, I find this post from Furtive interesting. In a previous post he pointed out how scum!BigTerp probably wouldn't be on abdbla at the end of day 1. I pointed out that I wasn't, and the above was Furtive's response. Possibly trying to keep me linked with the runup and subsequent miselim of abdbla?

[BigTerp]

Yeah, I'm surprised. What is going on.

What were your thoughts here? What were you surprised about?

[BigTerp]

Well, for what it's worth, I'm convinced its BigTerp as one of the scum. The other I dont know.

I fell like I've played a pretty strong town game. If there is anything specific you'd like me to address and/or answer, I'll all ears!!

[BigTerp]

It’s prob BT & FG.

I still dislike Bt’s push.

FG set off a newbie textbook scum-tell, but I don’t hold a lot of faith on weird stuff like that

I really don’t think it’s Val.
Maybe it’s my heart that doesn’t want it to be Val tho

Push on abdbla? I was off of them at the end of day one. I did intend to hammer early day 2, but eventually softened my stance on scum!abdbla as the day progressed. Moved my vote off of them here 727, with what I felt like was good reason. If you're concerned about the push on abdbla, and it indicative of alliance, Furtive has been pressing HARD there ALL game. It's interesting you haven't mentioned that at all.

What's the newbie scum-tell you're referencing in bold above?

[BigTerp]

Aaaand FG did the tell again

Go on.......

[BigTerp]

As for FG scum text book

FG has now showed remorse for serval deaths of miseliminated players.

I just finished modding a game with him, where he was town, and didn’t show emotion or apologize for it

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=89124

Sorry, I see what you were thinking now. Interesting!!

[BigTerp]

So then we get to the possibility of scumteams that don't include Asph. Call me if I'm wrong, but to me the most effective strategy here would be to eliminate Asph and I. The whole hammering discussion earlier really made me think of this. I'm not sure if it implicates anyone. I'm also not sure I like furtive's complete disregard for the self-hammer. As I've seen mentioned in several games, "informed perspective?"?

Thanks for agreeing to share your thoughts rather than whither away with the threat of being eliminated.

I read all of it, but want to address the above. Now that Asp has claimed a PR, do you still think eliminating yourself today is the best move? Why? If not, who would you suggest for the elim today?

I completely forgot to respond to this, but the largest reason for why the self-elim is something I'm a proponent of is because if someone else is lim'd, then I honestly think Town loses. I'm too easy of an elimination going in to elo. So, yes, I still think I should be eliminated. We'll (probably) lose one of the locktowns due to the nightkill, though not sure who between Italiano and Asph, but I don't think thats a huge deal when considering the big picture.

Personally, I think furtive would be my pick for elimination. The Val/furtive scumteam seems unlikely in my eyes, the interactions they had D1 regarding previous influences and the T02 read seems too big to be a coordinated effort, and a little dangerous at that. Terp/furtive and Mala/furtive both seem roughly equally likely, the Mala scumteam just because Mala is scummy, the Terp scumteam because in light of a red-flip on furtive the "I just can't properly read furtive but I think they're town" thing you've mentioned several times seems very suspicious.

Val/Mala is also unlikely, mainly because I think the whole deal with Mala dropping Val's name several times early on is too attention grabbing. The gain, if they're scum, compared to just... not doing it? It seems minimal. If it's Val/Terp, then I'll concede that my reads are garbage and I deserve to lose. Mala/Terp... maybe? I'd have to abandon all the towncred Terp's gotten over the past two days, and there's no significant connective tissue that makes me think it's likelier than any other scumteam, so I'm disregarding it.

Basically, I don't see a scumteam that doesn't have furtive in it. I might be missing something, of course, I literally just suggested that Asph could simultaneously be scum and Jailkeeper, so perhaps a grain of salt is in order.

Might wanna post it now, just in case.

True. I’ve been going back and forth with Val or Terp and Mala. I think that’s the scum team if Abd is town.

FWIW, the two known towns thoughts prior to the end of day 1.

[BigTerp]

FWIW, the two known towns thoughts prior to the end of day 1.

Sorry, end of day 2.

[BigTerp]

I can't get it out of my head the lack of discussion/participation from Mala and Furtive leading up to the abdbla elim. In particular, the Furtive absence is really sticking out to me. They were "all in" on abdbla right from the start of day 2. As that momentum built, Furtive starting posting less and less up to the point that they were absent for an entire IRL day until abdbla got the hammer. Rather convenient they were not around at all when their #1 scum read was getting the final push to a miselim. Now they are back with a flurry of post at the start of day 3 laying out some pretty good, IMO, thoughts on everyone. I'm not sure if that's scum!Furtive trying to lay the groundwork for another miselim day 3, or town!Furtive coming out of the tunneling on abdbla and actually trying to find a town read amongst the remaining 3 unknown players. I'm leaning towards the former at the moment.

[BigTerp]

You've scumread abdbla for the majority of the game though, and put votes behind it.

Going back, I find this post from Furtive interesting. In a previous post he pointed out how scum!BigTerp probably wouldn't be on abdbla at the end of day 1. I pointed out that I wasn't, and the above was Furtive's response. Possibly trying to keep me linked with the runup and subsequent miselim of abdbla?

abdbla was my push, we all know that. It's factual that you supported the push though, don't try and wash your hands of it and scapegoat me. I'm considering the possibility of you being the one other VT here, but posts like these are making me question that.

Besides, you said Mala was your #1 scumread right now just after I said pretty much the same thing. I can't see a natural progression in your thinking that led you to Mala being #1 here, and that's what's bugging me. What changed since 721, when you said if abdbla flips green you'd have me #1? I'm worried it could be a strategic decision rather than a genuine change in your thinking.

Quite the defensive turn here from you. Not at all how I've seen you play, in admittedly a small sample. But definitely caught my eye.

I'm not trying to distance myself at all from the abdbla push. I've explained my thought process there several times and was just correcting your post. I found it interesting, however, how you wanted to ensure that it was known how I've been pushing for them and put my votes behind it, which I never denied. 727 and 728 are precisely why I moved off of abdbla and got way more suspicious of yourself and Mala. Then here 764 is more reasons for my suspicion of yourself and Mala. I can't say for certainty which I believe to be the most scummiest however. Your hard pushing of abdbla gives me pause, not sure scum!Furtive pushes that hard for a miselim. But your reaction here has me thinking otherwise.

[BigTerp]

Besides, you said Mala was your #1 scumread right now just after I said pretty much the same thing. I can't see a natural progression in your thinking that led you to Mala being #1 here, and that's what's bugging me. What changed since 721, when you said if abdbla flips green you'd have me #1? I'm worried it could be a strategic decision rather than a genuine change in your thinking.

I realized I didn't really specifically address this. The thing that caused me to flip flop you and Mala, more than once even, is the distance you both put away from the game towards the end of day 2. I was confident the lack of participation meant mafia was happy with where the votes currently were. You two were the least active. Then abdbla post this 726 which completely flipped my thoughts on them being scum. ZERO reason for them to defend my thinking at that point in the game. I had a hard time, and still do somewhat, thinking scum!Furtive would push a miselim so hard 2 days in a row. So that brings me back around to Mala.

[BigTerp]

I understand this thinking coming from town, but also from mafia jumping off a town wagon last minute. As for the feeling about you copying my thoughts, it was partly the way you formatted your reads - Mala top scumread and the other two (me and val) joint second - that mirrored my posting early today. Why didn't you go for a ranking (1,2,3) instead?

I wouldn't expect a mafia player to jump off the wagon that close to an elim. abdbla was pretty much a done deal, for an elim, from halfway through day 1. I don't see why mafia would draw attention to themselves in that way. The post that abdbla made really made me think I had my read on them wrong all along. I just couldn't see why they would defend me, if scum, when I was the only other player catching any heat whatsoever. In fact, I was only catching heat for my pushing of Aspho, which is exactly what abdbla was defending, or at least trying to make sense of in their own head. No chance scum!abdbla does that in the position they are in.

As far as ranking 1,2,3 and mirroring your reads, after abdbla made this post 726 I was convinced I was looking in the wrong direction. My attention immediately went to yourself and Mala, mostly for being M.I.A. for over 24 hours while abdbla got run up and ultimately miselim'd. Mala made more sense than yourself in that scenario because of your pretty hard pushing of a miselim for 2 straight days. But, your absence leading up to that still has me thinking hard about you. As far as Val goes, I had them pegged as town for their discussion and thoughts on keeping us from eliminating abdbla so soon on day 2. I came out quickly with an intent to hammer, and Val wanted that shut down immediately and wanted to garner discussions from other players. Fair enough, and I feel like we got that. Val ultimately put their vote back on abdbla, and we know the rest. Looking back on that progression it could easily have come from an informed player.

So, now that you ask why I didn't go 1,2,3 I don't think I could right now. I'm so back and forth between yourself and Mala. But then I type all of this up and Val is right there as well. A few different scenarios, that make perfect sense in my head, but all lead to different scum/town reads.

[BigTerp]

Man, I'm super lost. I honestly think BigTerp is one of the people, but not enough to risk it all.

I obviously don't have to consider myself, but I'm right there with you. Between the three (Mala, Furtive, Val) I can make a convincing argument to myself for any of them. I keep going back and forth between all three. I'm trying to find something that really sticks out between the three of them, but haven't figured that out yet.

When you say "BigTerp is one of the people" are you saying you think I'm town now? You seemed pretty convinced after day 2 that I was scum. If the answer to that is yes, what changed your mind? If you still think I'm scum, I'm open to answering any question(s) you have. Please, ask away. Give me a chance to attempt to clear anything up before you vote. Like Furtive said, a vote on a town player just leaves the door open for a quick hammer and a mafia win.

I won't be on much more today, but will try and dive back in tomorrow morning to try and make sense between those 3 listed above.

[BigTerp]

What is going on here? Val M.I.A., Mala and Aspho with barely anything to contribute. We're not going to get ANYWHERE with just 2 out of 5 players participating. Let's get some discussion going!!!

[BigTerp]

I’ll be around today after my dentist appointment as I’m working alllll day.

Standby.

You’re still scum

(With FG obv)

Your participation will be much appreciated.

I'm not, nor ever was scum.

(Nice try)

[BigTerp]

I’ll be around today after my dentist appointment as I’m working alllll day.

Standby.

You’re still scum

(With FG obv)

Your participation will be much appreciated.

I'm not, nor ever was scum.

(Nice try)

I mean unless it's really FG & Val.

I really don't see Val as scum unless im just pocketed hardcore and/or biased.

But I'm definetly going to be voting FG

I'm hoping Ash will vote with me because I'm just certain FG is scum. As mentioned before he hit the "apology" tell for new scum x2. He feels diff than his other game.

I still dislike u for pushing the soft claim, but I guess that's just our styles and you didnt pick up or it, but i did.

I am going to reread Val tho just to make sure i'm not pocketed/bias

I'm still trying to work through the 3 of you myself. Val has just really been seeming to play a rather townish game. At face value, they look to be really trying to figure the game out with insight and takes that make sense. But then again, that could be just straight LAMIST type posting and coming from an informed player. If Val is scum, they've played a good game.

I agree with you on Furtive about how they are playing a bit differently than previous games. To be fair, I've only played on other game with them, but I've still noticed a difference on their play.

For yourself, the lurking and vague type posts has me really thinking you're scum just cruising along for the win with little to no suspicion on yourself. But someone did say that's your typical play style based on previous experience playing with you (Val I believe). So I've gotta take that into consideration. I made a case for you here 476 and after reading it again, much of it still rings true. You're self aware here 555 of your lurking and addressing CornPuff about it, yet you continued coasting along barely participating. But this 589 is what is really sticking out to me now. ZERO suspicion on Aspho for the accidental hammer. This was WELL before Aspho's soft claim. Why did you automatically assume it was a true accidental hammer? And then followed up by this 590. Both sound like something that would be coming from an informed player.

I'm ready to vote Mala. But want to hear more from Val and Aspho first.

[BigTerp]

Right this definitely confirms its a BigT & FG scum team^

Will be voting for FG after val checks in and ash comes back.

How so?

If I'm forced to rank my scum reads it would currently be Mala/Furtive 1/2 and Val #3. I think a miselim is more likely with Furtive, hence why I'd prefer Mala today.

[BigTerp]

Just caught up with the thread and I'm now worried Mala is bussing Terp.

Look at the way Mala has parked on Terp being public enemy number 1 for the past couple of days, and hasn't really pivoted from that, but now declares intent to vote me. It looks like scum 1) going for the quick win by trying to miscondemn me and 2) looking distanced with Terp in the event that one of them flips today.

Having said that, I might just be paranoid of the only two active players right now. We should definitely wait for Val to return before placing votes down. What I've noticed from experience when there's 2 scum in 5 is that mafia will go out of their way to look unpaired. So the consensus scumread will usually be mafia. Not always, but most of the time.

Wrt to this game in particular, I'm increasingly confident of Malakittens being scum - to the point where I can pretty much dismiss Terp/Val as the solve.

The way they've lurked/coasted all game casually calling town town, and then crawled out of the woodwork at this pivotal stage with some really strong opinions, is textbook scum play.

We should probably let Asphodelus use today like a day vig shot - i.e. no one else vote before they do today. I'll repeat that one town voting for me (or another town) puts us into autoloss.

The first bolded part is the only thing giving me pause on Mala being scum. The second bolded part is exactly why I think they are scum. I know I'm town, so I'm rather confused on why they are wanting to vote Furtive when, like you said, they've been on me for quite some time now. I guess I could see that as a Mala/Furtive team, but I find it hard to believe scum would push/bus their partner hard, or really at all, at this point in the game. Doesn't make sense to me.

So why buss me at this point yet state intent to vote elsewhere? Like you said, it helps to make them look "unpaired" which would turn the vote to me day 4 if we elim scum!Mala today. Not a bad play if Val is the scum partner in the event that Mala gets the elim today.

I'm getting more and more confident in a Mala/Val scum team. Mala needs to go first, IMO.

[BigTerp]

@Mod: I will be on V/LA until noon-ish UTC on Tuesday 3rd.

Back. I am aware it is a couple of hours later than I thought initially, and I apologies for that.

I realise that, having already spent the long weekend on my jollies, asking for you to bear with me further is an ask, but as has already been identified, it is ELO, and I want some time to reread the

whole

game, not just what I have missed, given that I know for sure that at least one of my reads on furtive and/or BigT is completely wrong and at least one of these newbies has played a Roden-level blinder of a scum game.

I did note on the skim that both furtive and BigT have indicated at least an initial willingness to vote Mala here, with BigT explicitly theorizing a Mala/Val team, and furtive (please correct me if I am wrong here) seeming having left the door for that solve open as well. Right now, I just can not see BigT/furtive being the solve, and I will go on record and say that my initial reaction to the abdbla flip would also be to vote Malakittens.

This means one of two things: either a)

Mala is being offered up as the game winning mislim by exactly a BigT/furtive scumteam

, or b) Mala is being bussed.

I've spent this game thinking such a BigT/furtive scumteam, and even now, having seen how off-base my reads have been, my gut still tells me that can't be right.

Glad to see you back. I look forward to your analysis and thoughts.

The bolded part is something I've considered with a Mala/Furtive team. Mala bussing their partner to a mafia elim would be a bold move though.

I need to go back and consider a Val/Furtive team. I find it unlikely, but I can't articulate why. Which indicates to me I need to do my due diligence and go back through the game and do some reading.

[BigTerp]

Sorry. I get pretty busy in the evenings (EST). Am getting caught up now....

[BigTerp]

I laid my newbie scum-text-book tell regarding FG p out p well, in addition,to them acting diff.

VOTE: fg

screw it, if i'm wrong, i'm wrong, but i think i'm right

this is gonna prove FG scum if
Val/BigT dont quickhammer rn

Man, I don't know what to think about this. On one hand Mala could be on to something here, but it seems like a HUGE risk to take. If Mala is town and guesses wrong, mafia would come in and quick hammer town!Furtive ending the game. Easy peasy, game over. I don't necessarily buy the excuse that all players aren't active at the same time so there was no quick hammer. As busy as I was last night, I still checked in and saw the vote between the time Mala posted and redacted it (4 hours). Also, it would only take one scum buddy to see the vote, PM their partner (I think that's allowed?) and their partner would get a notification of the PM and they could coordinate the quick hammer. 4 hours seems like plenty of time for that to happen. So, Mala could've proven Furtive scum here.

The other scenario is Mala/Furtive scum team and they are essentially bussing each other. Mala lays down the first vote on Furtive, explains how a non-quick hammer confirms Furtive as scum, there are 2 more that agree and scum!Furtive gets elim'd. This would essentially clear Mala for day 4. Bold strategy, but Mala did mention their "experience" earlier. So not such a far fetched idea coming from an experienced player. The other end of it is if the bus of Furtive doesn't pan out, Furtive busses Mala and after scum!Mala gets elim'd Furtive is pretty much in the clear for day 4.

The second scenario above is seemingly more and more plausible the more I think about it.

[BigTerp]

I'm tracking Mala/Val interactions and it looks like a textbook scum/town pocket. It doesn't really look scum/scum.

423 - Val is 'prob town'.

548 - Val is a 'homie', votes with Val.

590 - Val/Take was a 't/t tunnel'

685 - Val is 'more likely town'

745 - 'I really don’t think it’s Val. Maybe it’s my heart that doesn’t want it to be Val tho'. This is the most interesting to me - It's the start of ELO and town!Malakittens has a poe of 3 players. Immediately they are set on a pair of me/Terp. No rethinking, no ISOing. That's not how town play. It's also worth noting that this comment attempts to make us consider town!Malakittens being pocketed by scum!Val - I think deliberately.

This is done more explicitly in 778 - 'I really don't see Val as scum unless im just pocketed hardcore and/or biased'

Town!Malakittens wouldn't be as confident on this read, nor sustain it throughout the game even at Elo.

I agree with all of this. Which puts yourself as Mala's scum buddy.

I went back through and cannot peg a Furtive/Val scum team. If that's the team, then well done!!

[BigTerp]

If the only criticism levelled at me is that I said "rip abdbla", I think I can knock this one for a home run. In Newbie 2092, we miscondemned Meg day 1, but I didn't push hard for that elimination. In this game I was convinced abdbla was scum and was wrong, so I commented on it.

Mala initially said that was her "scumtell" back at 752, and your response was "In that game I was more accurate with my pushes."

I'm sitting here asking myself why it is Mala is so sure you are scum she would come out and bet the whole game on it before changing her mind 3 hours later before even confirming what the vote was, on the surface, supposed to confirm,

and I've gone and looked at 2092, and from what I can see, there was a single mislim D1 in that game before you were killed N2, and you were never on that wagon.

Why did you have such a meek response to that, and it took until I was clearly zooming in on that inconsistency with my 804 before you raised the obvious objection to it? In your shoes, knowing we were in an ELO situation, I would be screaming "what are you even talking about Mala, I wasn't even involved in any mislim in the game you modded?!?!?"

I've getting serious cross-bus vibes from what looks like scum theater to me.

I know not everyone plays the exact way I do, but the reason I was holding off voting Mala is because I don't want other players like Italiano and abdbla coming back in post-game and being cross with me for having rushed into a loss without being sure, and

Mala wants me to believe she went ahead and bet the whole game on furtive being scum on that flimsy justification that doesn't even hold on examination? I don't buy it. I think Mala had to

KNOW

furtive was scum, and the only way she knows that with certainty is if he is her partner.

Aspho, I really think you should rethink your BigT read here. I think BigT is the remaining VT.

This is a REALLY good post and is starting to mirror my thoughts as I get caught back up. I especially agree with the bolded parts.

[BigTerp]

I think our best shot today is Mala. The vote and then subsequent unvote of Furtive seems more like theater than a true test of a scummy player. Too much of a risk for a town player to take, IMO, at this point in the game. Is even more suspicious when here 781 they express their intent to vote Furtive after Val and Aspho "check in". Val made 2, rather long, posts with some specific questions for Mala. Instead of answering anything they voted Furtive. This was BEFORE the only remaining known town player could "check in". It just really looks like theater and a rather genius way to peg a Val/BigTerp scum team since there was no quick hammer. Town!Mala would be much more careful and calculated with their vote at this point in the game. The only way I can make sense of it is a Mala/Furtive scum team. The other thing is I've been their #1 for quite awhile now. Yet they continue to bus/push for Furtive. Again, looks like scum theater to create confusion as to where the votes are going.

I'm ready to vote Mala. We can sort out Val/Furtive/BigTerp day 4. I'm not 100% confident in the scum team, but am pretty highly confident that it includes Mala. Would like to hear some more from Aspho today, however.

[BigTerp]

Asphodelus has requested replacement. The deadline will be paused until a replacement is found.

I hope everything is alright with Aspho!! But what a terrible time to get a replacement.

[BigTerp]

I laid my newbie scum-text-book tell regarding FG p out p well, in addition,to them acting diff.

VOTE: fg

screw it, if i'm wrong, i'm wrong, but i think i'm right

this is gonna prove FG scum if
Val/BigT dont quickhammer rn

Man, I don't know what to think about this. On one hand Mala could be on to something here, but it seems like a HUGE risk to take. If Mala is town and guesses wrong, mafia would come in and quick hammer town!Furtive ending the game. Easy peasy, game over. I don't necessarily buy the excuse that all players aren't active at the same time so there was no quick hammer. As busy as I was last night, I still checked in and saw the vote between the time Mala posted and redacted it (4 hours). Also, it would only take one scum buddy to see the vote, PM their partner (I think that's allowed?) and their partner would get a notification of the PM and they could coordinate the quick hammer. 4 hours seems like plenty of time for that to happen. So, Mala could've proven Furtive scum here.

The other scenario is Mala/Furtive scum team and they are essentially bussing each other. Mala lays down the first vote on Furtive, explains how a non-quick hammer confirms Furtive as scum, there are 2 more that agree and scum!Furtive gets elim'd. This would essentially clear Mala for day 4. Bold strategy, but Mala did mention their "experience" earlier. So not such a far fetched idea coming from an experienced player. The other end of it is if the bus of Furtive doesn't pan out, Furtive busses Mala and after scum!Mala gets elim'd Furtive is pretty much in the clear for day 4.

The second scenario above is seemingly more and more plausible the more I think about it.

You actually didn't consider scum!Mala voting for town!me, which of course has no consequence for Malakittens. Was there a reason you didn't consider this?

This is fair, and I don't have a specific reason. I guess since I'm finding it harder and harder to rationalize a Mala/Val scum team and a Furtive/Val scum team it's more PoE than anything.

[BigTerp]

I'm tracking Mala/Val interactions and it looks like a textbook scum/town pocket. It doesn't really look scum/scum.

423 - Val is 'prob town'.

548 - Val is a 'homie', votes with Val.

590 - Val/Take was a 't/t tunnel'

685 - Val is 'more likely town'

745 - 'I really don’t think it’s Val. Maybe it’s my heart that doesn’t want it to be Val tho'. This is the most interesting to me - It's the start of ELO and town!Malakittens has a poe of 3 players. Immediately they are set on a pair of me/Terp. No rethinking, no ISOing. That's not how town play. It's also worth noting that this comment attempts to make us consider town!Malakittens being pocketed by scum!Val - I think deliberately.

This is done more explicitly in 778 - 'I really don't see Val as scum unless im just pocketed hardcore and/or biased'

Town!Malakittens wouldn't be as confident on this read, nor sustain it throughout the game even at Elo.

I agree with all of this. Which puts yourself as Mala's scum buddy.

I went back through and cannot peg a Furtive/Val scum team. If that's the team, then well done!!

And from my point of you it's Mala/Terp most likely. That said, I have seen open pairing before. I just don't think Val would be comfortable with it given the way he played in 2088.

I haven't looked at 2088, but I don't disagree here about the open pairing. I find both the open pairing and obvious bussing, both being scum/scum, a rather risky play. I mean, I guess you've gotta do one or the other at some point, especially if you get to ELo with both scum partners still alive, but in this game the open pairing of Mala/Val and the bussing of Val/Furtive both seem rather overplayed. I just find the bussing to me more plausible coming from an experienced player such as Mala.

Either way, I've got Mala as my #1 scum read. They should be the vote today.

[BigTerp]

Hello everyone!

Let me start by expressing regret for everyone who's died.

T02, I was very sorry to see you go. Ash hit the nail right on the head in post 316 in which she said you were playing the same as last game. You were, and I was townreading you just as hard. If I'd been here, I would have been fighting that wagon.

Corn and abd: I was pushing you guys so hard last game, and I realize now that I was way overconfident. A lot of the stuff I was scumreading you for was just your normal playstyle. I did notice you getting significantly less scummy in this game, and I wouldn't have started pushing you until D3, but you still looked like the top 50% scummiest to me. So, I'm sorry about my overconfidence last game, and I'm sorry to say that I might be pushing you guys now if different people had been eliminated.

Italiano, sorry you were forced to claim. Given a chance, I'm sure you could have done much more to help town.

Ok, now that I've greeted the game, and expressed regret for everyone who's died, let me say that I've been following this game since the beginning, and I know that I'm throwing out scumtells, and I'm doing it because I think that saying hello wrong and expressing regret for making a mistake are damn crap reasons to kill someone.

In fact, behaviorist B.F. Skinner did these operant conditioning chamber experiments where he locked pigeons inside boxes, and basically he demonstrated that pigeons overestimate the impact of arbitrary actions on events outside of their control. This same observation holds true to humans: we develop these meaningless rituals like scumreading people who say hello wrong, and (because of our tendency to remember hits and forget misses) we become very confident in the power of these rituals.

Oh hey, we're doing another mathematical fallacy. Does anyone hear frikkin pigeons.

Yeah, and it was dumb last game too. Daniel was wrong

T02

- He's basically playing the same the other game when he was being attacked by trist and such for no reason.

Ash, I'll admit to being wrong about many things in the last game, but the bit about pigeons is right. It's not a mathematical fallacy: it's a well-replicated psychological finding. Oh, and if you're going to bring up my pigeons post in all future games, I suggest you actually *read* it. The post was written in *defense* of T02. I never attacked T02 last game because it was so obvious to me that he was town.

Furtive, Mala, BigTerp, Val, nice to meet you guys. I've been reading your games. I know some of you have been reading mine as well.

I obviously disagree with Mala on the remorse tell. Like, a lot. It's hard for me to remind myself that she's not deliberately trying to mislead town with that. But, ignoring that tell, Mala, and TTTT before her, have been some of the towniest players through this entire game.

My other major townread is Furtive. I've been townreading him for the entire game, and it's honestly somewhat baffling to me why other people seem to be scumreading him so much.

Val, on the other hand, I've been scumreading the entire game. Mala, can you talk a bit about why you're so sure that Val is town? I know you've already been asked this recently, but I hope you'll take the question a bit more seriously coming from a confirmed town power role, rather than your biggest scumread.

Nice!! I like how you've come in ready to go, and were already caught up on the game. Looking forward to some increased participation!!!

Interesting that your reads, are basically, the opposite of mine. Your slot is confirmed (all but) town, so your takes and reads are highly interesting to me (as they should be to everyone else). We each have a pool of 3 to decide amongst, you have 4 making your job a bit more difficult. With that, I'll ask the following questions....

What specifically do you find so town about Furtive?

What specifically do you find so town about Mala? You don't like the remorse tell, but other than that Mala is a strong town read for you? How do you feel about their FoS at me, pretty hard and for quite a while yet they vote Furtive early in day 3?

What specifically do you find so scum about Val? I mentioned before that their play could be seen as LAMIST and a bit of WIFOM, but to me it seems genuine and makes sense. I'm having trouble getting much of a scum read here, so that leads me to a Mala/Furtive scum team.

You didn't mention me in your opening post. What are your thoughts on my play this game?

[BigTerp]

I'm on mobile and will be in bed shortly, but I'm ready to vote Mala as well. I think Daniel's reads are all wrong. They are literally the opposite of my own.

I'll give a more detailed response in the morning. Just wanted to check in quickly this evening before bed

[BigTerp]

VOTE: FG

Val you’re voting wrong, but I’m all out of fight today.

Been busy since I started work and I still got paperwork to finish before I can really give any time to this game

But obv majorly of the player list is scum reading me so it’s a loss cause

And the town isn’t listening to the confirmed town so

UNVOTE: FG

Maybe I’ll sleep on it and in the morning I’ll devote

I’m sorry ok
I REALIZED IT AS I HIT ENTER THAT IT WAS SILVER

VOTE: VAL

PROb gonna say out on the limb that’s vals gonna flip goon at endgame or if he gets limmed td

What is going on here? A vote for Furtive and, yet again, an unvote. Then out of left field a vote on Val. Where is that coming from? You've been town reading Val for pretty much the whole game, unless I'm missing something? Please correct me if I'm wrong. This is a classic OMGUS type vote. But why do something like that now when we are in ELo and scum could quick hammer? You were certain Furtive was scum just a day ago, with myself as your second. Now your voting Val. Makes no sense.

VOTE: FG
And the town isn’t listening to the confirmed town so

And this just reeks of scum trying to convince everyone that the 1 known town has their reads 100% correct. And because they are known town we should all just blindly follow. No offense to Daniel, but they've been here for less than 24 hours and you want to take all their reads as gospel? Come on. I definitely think the only known town should be listened too, and probably more than others, but that doesn't mean we should automatically assume they've got the game solved and just blindly follow their lead.

[BigTerp]

Or proved you are scum with one of BigT & FG

Hmmm.....I'm slightly suspicious of Nashville Dreams...they've really taken coasting to the max this game, 1 post in 35 pages....

True. But did they greet the game? NO!! What does that mean?!?!?!

[BigTerp]

I'm having trouble deciding between a Val/Mala team and a Furtive/Mala team. But one thing I'm nearly certain on is Mala is scum. They've coasted, HARD, up until the game goes into ELo and then all of a sudden they are super active and trying to steer the direction of the game. Combine that with the erratic voting and I really think we've caught scum working hard on a miselim to end the game.

Daniel - I'd like to hear more from you, but I really think you've got your reads wrong. They couldn't be more opposite of my own. And at this point in the game I really think if we follow your lead we miselim and it's game over. I'm certain of that on a vote for myself, and Val is a distant #3, currently, on my list of scum. So there are 2 other players I'd MUCH rather elim over Val. Even then Furtive is a distant 2nd to my #1 Mala. So I must try and convince yourself and/or Furtive to go with Mala today.

Furtive - You willing to vote Mala with me and Val today? I'm convinced it's our best chance to out scum. We can figure out the teammate amongst Val/BigTerp/Furtive tomorrow.

[BigTerp]

Ok, so let's take a look at Val.

Val started out by lurking. Not a good sign. It seems to me that scum are almost always hiding in the least active players. If I'm counting correctly, Val made his fifth post on page 10. While Val at this point is 11% of the players, he's responsible for 2% of the posts.

On page 10, he declares suspicion of Ash, which ... is completely fair. Ash up to this point had done zero scumhunting, and had given no reason for her only post-RVS vote (which was on Val). The post in which she cast her vote was 1,200 words, and yet she didn't even say Val's name outside the vote tag.

Val's vote on Ash is, of course, reactive, but if I'd been in the game at this point, I would have been voting Ash for that too.

Val first started to become active in this game on page 13, where he asks why there's been a lack of votes on T02. On page 14, he says the solve is probably Ash and T02, and quickly turns his focus to T02, moving his vote on the first post of page 15.

Almost all of Val's posts from this point onward are about T02. He moves his vote from T02 for a single post on page 16, just to prove a point, and then immediately votes T02 again.

This death tunnel on T02 made me uncomfortable.

T02 objected the greeting tell, which as I've said, I think is completely reasonable. Even more reasonable from a player playing his second game of forum mafia ever.

More importantly, I don't think I'm even seeing Val acknowledging the possibility that anyone other than Ash and T02 could be scum in all of D1.

This does not strike me as good investigation.

T02 is reactive and defensive. As long as you push T02, he fights back. We saw that in his previous game. And Val spent the entirety of D1 pushing T02, like it might do something.

Val's first post of D2 excuses the death tunnel by saying, essentially "I always death tunnel". Then for the first time ever, we get actual reads from Val, before he casts a vote on Ash.

Incidentally, he describes Terp as "The towniest newbtown to ever town. Even when they derp, they derp in a way I can see can come from a town mindset, and will quickly admit to having derped. I know it's start of D2, but even so, I can't see myself voting here, ever."

From this point, Val holds hard to the abd/Ash solve, until it turns out that they're both town, after which his focus seems to shift to Mala, where it remains.

All in all, I'm not seeing investigation from this slot. At all. For the entire game. The play looks like someone rolling a die to determine the next target, and then clinging to that target until they die or claim.

This feels scummy to me. Scum already knows who they want dead at the beginning of the game. For the most part, that doesn't change as new information is revealed. They don't need to spend a lot of time investigating, and they almost never need to change their mind or their vote. That's what I'm seeing from Val.

Val started out by lurking. Not a good sign. It seems to me that scum are almost always hiding in the least active players. If I'm counting correctly, Val made his fifth post on page 10. While Val at this point is 11% of the players, he's responsible for 2% of the posts.

You've got Val as scummy for the above, yet Mala has been lurking for the majority of the game up until we get to ELo. They made their 5th post on page 18. What's the difference?

Almost all of Val's posts from this point onward are about T02. He moves his vote from T02 for a single post on page 16, just to prove a point, and then immediately votes T02 again.

This death tunnel on T02 made me uncomfortable.

T02 objected the greeting tell, which as I've said, I think is completely reasonable. Even more reasonable from a player playing his second game of forum mafia ever.

More importantly, I don't think I'm even seeing Val acknowledging the possibility that anyone other than Ash and T02 could be scum in all of D1.

This does not strike me as good investigation.

T02 is reactive and defensive. As long as you push T02, he fights back. We saw that in his previous game. And Val spent the entirety of D1 pushing T02, like it might do something.

The above sounds just like Furtive day 1 and day 2 on abdbla. Furtive was tunneling them HARD for 2 straight days that ultimately ended in a miselim. Why no FoS on them from you for that?

Incidentally, he describes Terp as "The towniest newbtown to ever town. Even when they derp, they derp in a way I can see can come from a town mindset, and will quickly admit to having derped. I know it's start of D2, but even so, I can't see myself voting here, ever."

This could be seen as an attempt to pocket, maybe. But I'm not really seeing it. I was described this exact same way in my previous game, I believe by town!TTTT. I guess I town pretty hard, and I took this as a good thing that Val recognized it.

What I'm trying to say is your reasoning(s) for scum reading Val could be easily said for other players, and those other players may have even done those things you described about Val more. So yeah, I again gotta disagree with your read(s).

[BigTerp]

@Terp: I'm feeling pretty uncertain about you. I was townreading you for the first half of the game, and I've said that scum often hide behind inactivity, and you seem to be the most active player in this game by far.

I agree with what you're saying about Mala too, except for one thing: everyone seems willing to vote Mala. That means scum too. I worry that if I vote her, scum will hammer and it's game over.

I will not be voting Mala today, and I don't expect to be alive tomorrow, so I guess Mala is safe from me for the rest of the game.

Furtive - You willing to vote Mala with me and Val today? I'm convinced it's our best chance to out scum. We can figure out the teammate amongst Val/BigTerp/Furtive tomorrow.

Really think about this. There are five players, and my slot claimed town power with no counterclaim. That means of the three people you suggest vote Mala, at least one of them has to be scum. Would scum be voting their own partner?

Yes, I believe scum will be voting their partner today. Mala's comment earlier about being experienced really got me thinking. The common/easy thing to do in ELo is for scum to distance themselves from their partner. I think a smart and seasoned veteran of this game would bus their partner at this point in the game. It's where I'm getting my Mala/Furtive solve from. Further, Mala's willingness to throw a vote on Val after they've been scum reading myself and voting Val recently further cements my thoughts on the above. I can't think of any other reason for Mala to do that other than to cause confusion and not leave much to go on if they get elim'd today.

[BigTerp]

The difference between Val making his fifth post on p10, and Mala making her fifth post on p18 is that Mala was subbing in for TTTT, who was extremely active. It's an active slot, even if Mala isn't.

Yeah, furtive was on most of D1, but he also was decently active, gave reads, acknowledged the possibility of other people being scum, and even unvoted abd for a while. You can't really compare the two.

And I wasn't suggesting that Val's read on you was alignment-indicative. I just found it interesting.

Shit, you're correct. I didn't consider the Mala substitution when comparing them with Val in regards to activity. My mistake. But, the overall point still stands about Mala lurking and then turning it on in ELo. I know many do, but I have trouble looking at just "the slot". Especially when that slot is replaced early in the game, as it was in this one. When someone subs in I've pretty much have to keep them separate. No two players play the same as a certain alignment.

Fair enough on your second point.

Your last point I was just addressing the read. I found it interesting when it happened, as far as it feeling pretty townish, but at this point the possibility of it being a pocketing strategy does exist. I just don't see Val thinking that far ahead by trying to pocket me at that point.

[BigTerp]

Maybe I should have held off taking even the small risk of a BigT/furtive team, after all. Turns out it is one of those that are obviously poor on the surface.

I'm not sure what you mean here, but a BigTerp/Furtive team should be all but off the table. Your vote on Mala last night would've resulted in a quick hammer if that was the team. We both posted within a few minutes of each other here 865 and here 866. No need to let things linger past there. I mean, it's game over if it's a BigTerp/Furtive team with a quick hammer on Mala last night. The lingering votes by Mala on Val and Val on Mala should further solidify that this team is HIGHLY unlikely, if not impossible at this point. Yeah, I'm trying to get Furtive to vote Mala with me, but why do it in thread when we'd have our own Mafia chat to discuss that?

The vote on FG by Mala, twice now, should also eliminate a BigTerp/Val scum team. There isn't as much evidence of us both being on at the same time to complete a quick hammer as my previous example, but the point still stands that it didn't happen so that team shouldn't be a top read at this point.

[BigTerp]

I'm not sure what you mean here, but a BigTerp/Furtive team should be all but off the table.

It is off the table.

My point is, that having seen the 'case' for scum!me, that I need not have bothered even taking the small risk of a BigT/furtive team. The case is objectively poor, as you've identified.

I am going to take a moment to check the math once I've picked my kids up from school, because I am 99% certain the assertion that I was less active than TTTT/Mala combined at the point TistDan replaced, to any statistically significant degree, is just false.

Thanks for the clarification.

[BigTerp]

Maybe I should have held off taking even the small risk of a BigT/furtive team, after all. Turns out it is one of those that are obviously poor on the surface.

I'm not sure what you mean here, but a BigTerp/Furtive team should be all but off the table. Your vote on Mala last night would've resulted in a quick hammer if that was the team. We both posted within a few minutes of each other here 865 and here 866. No need to let things linger past there. I mean, it's game over if it's a BigTerp/Furtive team with a quick hammer on Mala last night. The lingering votes by Mala on Val and Val on Mala should further solidify that this team is HIGHLY unlikely, if not impossible at this point. Yeah, I'm trying to get Furtive to vote Mala with me, but why do it in thread when we'd have our own Mafia chat to discuss that?

The vote on FG by Mala, twice now, should also eliminate a BigTerp/Val scum team. There isn't as much evidence of us both being on at the same time to complete a quick hammer as my previous example, but the point still stands that it didn't happen when there was ample time for it to happen, so that team should be a last resort read, at best.

Thinking more about this, the remaining combinations are as follows:

Mala/Val
Mala/Furtive
Mala/BigTerp
Val/Furtive

Just going on this alone and ignoring individual reads, there is a 75% chance that Mala is scum, 50% chance Furtive is scum and a 25% chance Val and BigTerp are scum. All the more reason to elim Mala today and work out the partner day 4.

[BigTerp]

Let me know how that count turns out.

In the meantime, I don't think I'm going to get any more or less certain at this point. It's a hard decision, but my odds of getting it right are 50/50 if I choose completely at random. And I'm not choosing completely at random. I'm more confident about Val's alignment than any other player. No need to draw this out any longer than it has to be.

If Val flips town, the game is over. If Val flips scum though, we have one more vote. Mala, furtive, Terp, assuming Val flips scum, who will you be voting for tomorrow?

VOTE: Val

Yeah, this seems a little premature. Especially considering that Val stated they were going to address your reason(s) for scum reading them when they had the chance later today.

[BigTerp]

Terp seems awfully determined to save Val. I'm thinking this is the most likely scum team, assuming Val flips red. Mala seems least likely to me. Maybe scum would bus at this point, but to *start* a wagon on their own partner?

Though you're right, if the scum team is furtive/Mala, I suppose they haven't had the chance to hammer yet.

I guess we'll find out soon.

Yes, I'm trying to save my top remaining town read. I believe if Val is elim'd today, town looses. If it was a BigTerp/Mala scum team, we would've hammered Furtive yesterday when Mala had a vote on them for over 4 hours. I've already explained how that all but eliminates that scum team possibility. The game, at this point, is hinging on your vote. I think you're wrong. And you're ignoring my sound reasonings for it.

[BigTerp]

So, activity wise up until Daniel subbed in we've got the following.......

Val - 89 posts
TTTT - 61 posts
Mala - 53

So Daniel is correct that TTTT/Mala had more cumulative posts at the time they subbed in than Val. However, if you consider Mala's post before we were in ELO, which I think is the argument correct? Mala had a whopping 18 posts.

[BigTerp]

18 + 61= 89, right? So when we started ELO, Mala had more than Val did when I subbed in?

Or rather, the Mala slot had the same number as Val did when I subbed in. More than Val did at the time.

18 + 61 = 79. So, no. Val still had more than the cumulative TTTT/Mala slot when you subbed in.

[BigTerp]

But the Mala slot was more active than Val at the time?

And if so, was there any point in this game where Val was now active than Mala's slot?

I'm not really sure what you are asking here. And I'm not trying to be a dick, but you can just as easily go back through the ISO's of each and see what their post count was at any point in the game. Why are you asking me to do that work? I understand why Val asked me, since they were in danger of getting quick hammered, your argument for your vote was activity, or lack thereof (I'm not even sure now), and Val was tied up and desperately asking you to give them a chance to do that math. So I guess I'm saying is you can answer those questions just as easily yourself, and I don't understand why you're asking me to do the work.

[BigTerp]

It looks to me like at the start of D3, Val was responsible for 10% of the posts, and Mala's slot was responsible for 11%. So even at the beginning of ELO, Mala's slot was more active.

We've moved the goalposts several times and it's still a goal.

I'm willing to wager that there's no point since RVS where Mala's slot has been less active than Val.

I feel like you're just spinning your wheels here at this point. Is the activity, or lack thereof, your sole reason for your scum read on Val? If so, that's rather thin reasoning, especially to put them to E-2 when we are at ELO. If not, you gotta start expressing those reasons as well and building a better case. Tunneling just the activity/lack of is not helpful at this point.

[BigTerp]

Where did Terp say you two together were essentially bust? I saw him saying that there was a 25% chance of that.

Dude, are you even paying attention? You're really starting to worry me. Your putting people to E-2 while missing, or grossly misinterpreting, portions of the game. 897 903

[BigTerp]

a 25% chance Val and BigTerp are scum

I see now that it was probably a typo on your part, but I'm still not convinced.

Come one, seriously? It's NOT a typo. That is a 25% chance that each individual could be scum. Not that a Val/BigTerp scum team has a 25% chance. Again, you're grossly misinterpreting things. Please try and pay better attention. You're the one known town, and a slip by you could cost the town the game.

Below is the whole quote....

Thinking more about this, the remaining combinations are as follows:

Mala/Val
Mala/Furtive
Mala/BigTerp
Val/Furtive

Just going on this alone and ignoring individual reads, there is a 75% chance that Mala is scum, 50% chance Furtive is scum and a 25% chance Val and BigTerp are scum. All the more reason to elim Mala today and work out the partner day 4.

[BigTerp]

Though I should make note of this. Using the same logic that BigTerp used, we can conclude that if Mala is scum, furtive is almost certain to be her partner. There were two votes on Val, and BigTerp could hammer. If he were Mala's partner, he would have done so, because he was active at the time, and it would have won the game.

Now it's possible that Mala started a wagon on her own partner at ELO, but that does not seem like good play to me. I can see her maybe bussing her partner and voting her partner at ELO, but to start a wagon when there wasn't one?

As I see it, there's an extremely high chance that the solve is either furtive/Mala or BigTerp/Val. And of those two possibilities, I'm on BigTerp/Val.

I've expressed how a BigTerp/Val scum team is HIGHLY unlikely. A Furtive/Mala team makes way more sense, as does a Furtive/Val team although to a lesser extent. Again, here 897 is why you shouldn't even be considering a BigTerp/Furtive or BigTerp/Val scum team. A BigTerp/Mala team, sure. But not the other two aforementioned.

Another thing to consider is the only way Mala isn't scum is if it's a Val/Furtive scum team. I laid that out here 903. While possible, I find that solve highly unlikely. I plan to go back through that possibility after I lunch, but right now is the least likely solve, IMO.

So again, I'll implore that you consider Mala over myself or Val. I know I'm town and I'm reading Mala WAY more scummy than Val. In fact, Val is 3rd on my list after Mala and Furtive. Add in the fact that with the remaining players Mala has a 75% chance of flipping red, the odds are much more in our favor going with Mala today over anyone else.

[BigTerp]

@Terp: You can't be partnered with Mala. If you were partnered with Mala, you would have hammered Val and won the game a few hours ago. If you're scum, you're scum with Val.

Fair enough. But that is also the EXACT reason why a BigTerp/Val solve is no good. Like I said here 897.

And to further expand on this, consider this 903. If you cannot see a BigTerp/Mala team then you shouldn't be able to solve with a Bigterp/Val team. That should, by POE, have me as your biggest town read.

[BigTerp]

I agree.

Which makes it my POV

It’s FG n Val

And the fact Val pushed for me after I pushed hardcore on FG was where I was thinking last night

However I think Val’s a goon n FG is the rber

This interests me. Do you have anything further to expand on this?

[BigTerp]

@Terp: You can't be partnered with Mala. If you were partnered with Mala, you would have hammered Val and won the game a few hours ago. If you're scum, you're scum with Val.

Fair enough. But that is also the EXACT reason why a BigTerp/Val solve is no good. Like I said here 897.

And to further expand on this, consider this 903. If you cannot see a BigTerp/Mala team then you shouldn't be able to solve with a Bigterp/Val team. That should, by POE, have me as your biggest town read.

E-2 is very different from E-1.

What are you talking about? No one has been to E-1 day 3 yet. Both scenarios are exactly the same in how they eliminate the possibility of a BigTerp/Val team or a BigTerp/Mala team.

[BigTerp]

Vote Count 3.05

Malakittens (1):

Val89

Val89 (1):

Malakittens

Not Voting (3):

BigTerp, furtiveglance, TistDaniel

With 5 alive, it's 3 to eliminate.

Deadline for Day 3 is May 10 at 12:00 AM EST.

Deadline Timer:

(expired on 2022-05-10 00:00:00)

@BigTerp: Mala's vote is on Val, and it's 3 to eliminate. Val is at E-1 right now. For the second time today.

Got it. Sorry, not sure how I missed that.

[BigTerp]

And you accuse me of not paying attention to the game.

Alright

[BigTerp]

Although I'm highly uncomfortable right now with Val at E-1, I guess this will at least reveal some sort of information.

No hammers - Val is scum. That leaves BigTerp or Furtive as the partner.
Hammer - Val flips red. Would scum!Furtive be so bold to hammer their partner? I'm certainly not hammering. Would scum!Mala be so bold to start the wagon on their partner?
Hammer - Val flips green. Game over!!

[BigTerp]

I'll just say that TistDaniel subbed into a REALLY tough spot. Only known town in an ELO situation. I don't envy him in that position at all!! While I disagree with his most of his reads, I do believe he came about them in a genuine way.

[BigTerp]

If Val is town, the only one besides myself who could hammer to end the game would be Furtive. He came on, addressed the increased participation in the game (5 pages added) and said he'd be back in a few hours to digest and post. That would indicate scum!Furtive trying to buy some time to figure out the plan for the Val/Furtive scum team and essentially eliminates the possibility of a Mala/Furtive scum team.

The only thing holding me back from hammering Val is the possibility that Mala is bussing their partner and started the wagon. Seems rather unlikely. I've mentioned plenty of times how Furtive is my #2. Mala had previously voted there and would only have to convince myself to complete the miselim, with the hammer coming from scum!Val. So scum!Mala wouldn't have too much trouble getting a miselim on town!Furtive. So again, scum!Mala bussing scum!Val seems rather unlikely.

The first scenario seems like an obvious one though, especially considering I've been sitting on my vote since Val went to E-1. The smarter thing to do would be for scum!Furtive to quick hammer scum!Val and then FOS me to a miselim day 4.

Man, I think I've convinced myself that Val is scum. If they are town, and I know I'm town and Daniel is confirmed town the only thing scum!Furtive had to do was vote Val and it's game over. Why in any possible scenario would they not do that?

I'm scared........................VOTE: VAL89

[BigTerp]

Sorry. I was having fun with my kids all weekend while my wife was out of town.

I'm catching up now.....

[BigTerp]

I'll start off by saying that Val played an excellent game. I was thoroughly convinced they were town, right up until I made my last post before hammering them. Not sure if they had planned to pocket me at any point, but they sure had me there. After Furtive made their appearance, and stated they would catch up and be back "in a few hours" my mind started spinning. Furtive and myself were the only ones not on Val, who was at E-1. I know I'm town, so why would Furtive make a post without hammering? It honestly flipped me out a bit. I expected scum!Furtive to come on and hammer, which would allow them to FOS me day 4 to a miselim and a mafia win. But when they came on and didn't hammer and I knew there was no other possibility at that point then a Furtive/Val team, I was still hesitant for whatever reason, to hammer Val. Hence my "I'm scared" comment before I voted.

So that leaves us with the following possibilities:

Val/Mala
Val/BigTerp
Val/Furtive

Val/Mala is unlikely. Even at ELO with 2 mafia remaining, I wouldn't find it crazy that mafia would have their vote on their partner. Starting the wagon though? Seems pretty bold. Val also started with the first vote on Mala day 3. They both bussed each other the remainder of day 3. I can't imagine a scum team doing this. Also, the below. scum!Mala would have a much easier time getting a miselim on Furtive than Val here. So why risk voting your partner here?

The only thing holding me back from hammering Val is the possibility that Mala is bussing their partner and started the wagon. Seems rather unlikely. I've mentioned plenty of times how Furtive is my #2. Mala had previously voted there and would only have to convince myself to complete the miselim, with the hammer coming from scum!Val. So scum!Mala wouldn't have too much trouble getting a miselim on town!Furtive. So again, scum!Mala bussing scum!Val seems rather unlikely.

Val/BigTerp - Here 897 is mainly why this team is also highly unlikely. There isn't evidence of us both being on at the same time, but that vote was up for over 4 hours. Seems highly unlikely that a mafia quick hammer couldn't be coordinated in that time. Also, I was town reading Val HARD, and wasn't afraid to show it. Val seemed to lap that right up with many references to their town read of me, even to the point of calling me the towniest newbtown they've ever seen. I realize now, they were pocketing me and it nearly got a miselim of Mala for a mafia win. We also hadn't voted for one another up until I hammered Val to end day 3. I don't see mafia separating themselves from each other this hard all game. You would think there would be something done (a vote, an FOS, etc.) at some point in the game to look back on in this exact scenario to say "see, I voted Val there", or, "look, I had them pegged as scum day 2".

Val/Furtive - I honestly expected Furtive to come in, hammer town!Val and win the game. Even if Val flipped green, it would look as if I was the partner obviously not wanting to hammer. When Furtive didn't hammer, I knew they were scum. That eliminated a Mala/Furtive team, which was my #1 solve at the time. That leaves a Mala/Val team or a Furtive/Val team. Already seeing the Mala/Val team as highly unlikely, as I already described, Furtive/Val is the only remaining possibility.

Furtive - What's your case on Mala?
Mala - What's your case on Furtive?
Both - What's your case on Me?

I'm ready to vote Furtive and will need a LOT of convincing to change my mind.

[BigTerp]

Val/Furtive - I honestly expected Furtive to come in, hammer town!Val and win the game.

Even if Val flipped green

, it would look as if I was the partner obviously not wanting to hammer. When Furtive didn't hammer, I knew they were scum. That eliminated a Mala/Furtive team, which was my #1 solve at the time. That leaves a Mala/Val team or a Furtive/Val team. Already seeing the Mala/Val team as highly unlikely, as I already described, Furtive/Val is the only remaining possibility.

EBWOP - Even if Val flipped RED

[BigTerp]

If Val is town, the only one besides myself who could hammer to end the game would be Furtive. He came on, addressed the increased participation in the game (5 pages added) and said he'd be back in a few hours to digest and post. That would indicate scum!Furtive trying to buy some time to figure out the plan for the Val/Furtive scum team and essentially eliminates the possibility of a Mala/Furtive scum team.

The only thing holding me back from hammering Val is the possibility that Mala is bussing their partner and started the wagon. Seems rather unlikely. I've mentioned plenty of times how Furtive is my #2. Mala had previously voted there and would only have to convince myself to complete the miselim, with the hammer coming from scum!Val. So scum!Mala wouldn't have too much trouble getting a miselim on town!Furtive. So again, scum!Mala bussing scum!Val seems rather unlikely.

The first scenario seems like an obvious one though, especially considering I've been sitting on my vote since Val went to E-1. The smarter thing to do would be for scum!Furtive to quick hammer scum!Val and then FOS me to a miselim day 4.

Man, I think I've convinced myself that Val is scum. If they are town, and I know I'm town and Daniel is confirmed town the only thing scum!Furtive had to do was vote Val and it's game over. Why in any possible scenario would they not do that?

I'm scared........................VOTE: VAL89

I suspect that was actually a legitimate stalling post by Furtive, and didn't actually look at the vote count, but if that was a deliberate last fuck you to me... Good one, you can have that

I'm still mulling both of these posts over.

I REALLY like this whole thing by BigT up until the "i'm scared.......... "
& this last post by Val was "ugh"

This is also solidifying my thoughts on town!Mala. Mala knowns my #1 is Furtive at this point. Why would scum!Mala waste anytime even slightly questioning my post here? Instead, scum!Mala would've run with it and hopped on the scum!Furtive train with me and rode it to a mafia win. Just like day 3!! Instead, they are still questioning my thoughts and not closing the door on the possibility of scum!BigTerp. Seems like a very townish way to be playing on the last day.

[BigTerp]

I'm pretty tied up each evening (EST), but will be sure to check in tonight.

Furtive - If you want Mala, you need to present your case.
Mala - If you want Furtive, I'm ready.

If you both want myself, I'd be interested to hear each of your cases. But at least give me the chance to respond before you vote.

[BigTerp]

Though I should make note of this. Using the same logic that BigTerp used, we can conclude that if Mala is scum, furtive is almost certain to be her partner. There were two votes on Val, and BigTerp could hammer. If he were Mala's partner, he would have done so, because he was active at the time, and it would have won the game.

Now it's possible that Mala started a wagon on her own partner at ELO, but that does not seem like good play to me. I can see her maybe bussing her partner and voting her partner at ELO, but to start a wagon when there wasn't one?

As I see it, there's an extremely high chance that the solve is either furtive/Mala or BigTerp/Val. And of those two possibilities, I'm on BigTerp/Val.

Yeah there’s no way scum would bus this late in the game unless they WERE forced

I laid my newbie scum-text-book tell regarding FG p out p well, in addition,to them acting diff.

VOTE: fg

screw it, if i'm wrong, i'm wrong, but i think i'm right

Hmm.

This is a Wifom. Im not sure where to lean into.

Eh it's more of which of me/fg you ahve to sort out of who's scum more.

I can tell you right now FG will be voting me the next time he's in thread.

So say in theory if i'm town & FG is town -- then Val & BigT need to come in together to hammer FG to win right now say if they were the scum team.

now for theory for me!town one of a townie and the other scum partner need to vote in order for the scum team to win or both townies for that matter.

scum!FG we need either all three townies to vote for him or two townies & the scum partner needs to bus.

more than likely scum aren't going to bus when they are so close. the only time this theory is if there's a guilty then scum is gonna bus to the wall.

Yeah, there isn't a quick hammer. THat is odd.

But the other option could be Mala is the person, waiting on me to vote and then their partner quick hammers.

see above^

there isn't a quick hammer because not everyone has been posting at the same time.
for instance FG/Val/BigT haven't all posted w/in 10 mins of each other.

I will say when I was scum the last time against Val. I was waiting FOR days for my partner in ELO to come on at the same time to vote or me manilupating a townie to vote so i could hammer

These two posts from Mala are giving me a bit of pause. Particularly the blue highlighted portions. I mentioned before how I don't think scum would bus their partner in an ELO situation. Maybe they would hop on eventually, but not start the wagon. Mala seems rather self aware about that and points it out twice during day 3. The back and forth between Furtive and Val from Mala, while also reading me as scum really has me thinking now. Could Mala have been intentionally causing a bit of confusion there? Could Mala have actually bussed their partner from the get go in ELO? And in return, their partner bus them right back? Or does Mala actually have it figured out with a Val/Furtive scum team?

I feel like in an ELO situation a town player is rather careful with their vote. Not in the sense that it draws suspicion, but that voting wrong could lead to a quick hammer with the scum team quickly doing the work. This is exactly why I kept my vote in my pocket waiting for scum!Furtive to hammer town!Val and end the game. When Furtive came on and didn't vote, I knew immediately that Val HAD to be scum. Mala was OK putting their vote on 2 different players day 3. Seems a little audacious, especially considering they were also fingering myself as scum.

Also, the red highlighted part above seems like an odd thing to say. Mala - why so certain that Futrive would be voting you day 3?