? I've been pretty insistent that nom is likely traitor, I'm totally confident she's not town I'm just not sure she's shared-PT with Creature. I think it's 14-3-1[traitor] at this point, given the two scum flipped relatively decent scum PRs (2x quasi ascetic/bp in a game with vigs n1-4 is not bad) and I haven't been hear a lot of town power claims other than the bp/vig, informed, and second alternating vig. 14-3-1 with that as the core town power structure would easily pass review.
As I have said, if all we want is a sure non-town flip, I absolutely would flip nom here over anyone else, as has been mentioned there's just reason to think her flip doesn't end the game but rather just gets rid of the traitor. Still, getting rid of the traitor would be preferable to a mislynch if we had a strong argument for otter scum. I just don't see any strong arguments for otter scum; the arguments on hand are more "doesn't feel like scum to me" from KK and others I feel but I haven't seen anything from his play that makes me think he's not scum that's just given up on a lost game.
Even so I still only put him on 65% scum whereas nom is like, way above that, solid 90%+ in my mind, I just think she's traitor not killing scum.
I kinda don't get why you think I was saying 15-3 when I feel like I've repeated my points about nom basically ad nauseum and my entire discussion today has resolved around 14-3-1. Hell if it was 15-3 then I'd be on nom here and have to just assume I'm wrong on her being traitor and that somehow Creature distanced her as groupscum like that which would be surprising but not impossible.
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Post #2319 (isolation #205) » Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:38 pm
Postby Kirari Momobami »
When did I say anything about Montosh today? And when did I say I wanted a reaction out of you? I don't care about your reactions, you're pretty clearly scum lol
In post 1719, LuckyOtter wrote:If Red and Montosh are scum together, why wouldn't Red just jump on the Niko wagon there?
Your question is backwards. If scum!Montosh part of the 5 votes then it's more likely that Nikomislynch is at risk of not truly occurring because a high number of mistaken townies is needed. Since scum!Montosh actually wasn't part of the five votes it is more likely that RedFlavor could keep his hands clean of the mislynch whilst the mislynch still occurs.
Really not following you here.
At any rate, in a scum!Montosh world, why would Red join him on Vork to create a competing wagon with Niko, when Creature still has some votes. That play doesn't make sense to me.
In post 1730, popsofctown wrote:because Niko claimed traitor and Vorkuta is just a mislynch!
This may be a fantasy but if it is I prefer it to reality.
And here. I think there was plenty reason to want to push on Niko and keep the focus there, rather than let the focus shift back to Creature once the novelty wore off
In post 1741, LuckyOtter wrote:@Kirari why risk it, though? Why not just stick a vote on Niko if it's such an easy vote to make? I'm saying scum
did
do that and Red didn't want to join his buddy.
Following my thoughts on this one. I'm guessing orfhz over Hirari.
VOTE: ofrhz
so you didn't think to look up what a traitor was when it was being actively discussed while you were online 10 days ago?
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Post #2385 (isolation #211) » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:37 am
Postby Kirari Momobami »
I do admit I am not sure otter has the disposition to try to fake a townslip to dodge a lynch as scum
But I also am kinda blown away by him missing 4 pages worth of posts discussing traitors in this game... That's 4% of the entire game he has not understood, basically all of it in the last 10 days
Post
Post #2392 (isolation #213) » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:10 am
Postby Kirari Momobami »
There being one group scum left is an inference I made from the traitor spec.
Before KK's claim, I would have thought 1 group scum, 1 SK (Maybe + traitor for group scum?)
After KK's claim, I've gravitated toward 1 group scum + 1 traitor
but KK's claim does not in itself guarantee there is a traitor. There could simply be 2 group scum and the scum cop could have been pure wifom. I *highly* doubt that, but it's not impossible.
But accepting *some* level of setup spec is required if you're looking only for one groupscum at this point
Post
Post #2394 (isolation #214) » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:16 am
Postby Kirari Momobami »
In post 2388, popsofctown wrote:Nom isn't playing very much like someone who can make their problems go away during the night phase, nom like someone who cannot make noms problems go away without persuasive dayplay. That doesn't preclude traitor but I'm not here to traitor hunt.
ehh, nom would be last groupscum if she was scum (probably). vis-a-vis she could not make her problems go away in *one* night phase because the vig is still around.
In my mind the argument that nom is traitor and not groupscum is largely based on Creature's interactions with the slot, which is a major concern but does not preclude her from being groupscum.
ofrhz is hard to read given activity but I would be pretty surprised if she was groupscum given how she interacted with red, and frankly, from the fact that she's a top 4 poster frankly. I can't find a game where as scum she breaks 100 posts; if you can let me know
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Post #2395 (isolation #215) » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:17 am
Postby Kirari Momobami »
In post 2393, popsofctown wrote:I don't know not_known that will but if the problem with a wifom mafia cop is the requisite sadism towards the scumteam his proxy night actions policy seems to already demonstrate that so I don't see why it should be hard exclude
Post
Post #2408 (isolation #218) » Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:22 am
Postby Kirari Momobami »
In post 2397, popsofctown wrote:VOTE: otter ok I will sheep you kirari you're my new nero cain you didn't lead me into mislynch yesterday and you don't make fun of my animu
I like the sentiment but I think I'm down to 50/50 on otter lol
The less confident I am on him the more I want to lynch nom and hope game is solved tomorrow with mass
Post
Post #2410 (isolation #219) » Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:36 am
Postby Kirari Momobami »
Idk between being 90%sure nom is scum and 60% sure she's not main faction vs only 50% thinking otter is main faction I'm kinda at... Just get nom's flip and know how many mislynches we got tomorrow during mass.
Post
Post #2415 (isolation #221) » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:40 pm
Postby Kirari Momobami »
Yeah otter had never said the word "traitor" before this game... If he really thought traitor was like sk???????? Then I guess it makes sense he would not react to the chamge of mech......even if it rrally bothers me that he understands the mech now?
But I kinda don't think scum otter fakes a traitor dumbtell
Now there is still a question....creature would not explain what a traitor is and I am honestly not sure about redflavor. But it is hard to imagine otter as groupscum would be informed there is a traitor and then never investigate it.
But it still really bothers me he never got it clarified as town even though it's been actively discussed for a week and a half
Post
Post #2424 (isolation #223) » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:13 pm
Postby Kirari Momobami »
OK let's review.
Town: pops -- high confidence town
Conditional read -- Kublai Khan is very high confidence town given he produces a vig that is NOT HIMSELF tomorrow, assuming there is a tomorrow
nero -- medium confidence town
ofrhz -- medium/low confidence town -- off meta, I slightly think ofrhz is outside her scumrange... not dramatically, but this is definitely not her "comfortable" scumrange which is more of a hardlurky style. It's possible she was pushed out by consistent pressure, but I also dislike her treatment of the redflavor wagon as s/s.
Lucky Otter -- low confidence town -- being scum requires believing he faked a dumbtell irt traitor which based on his disposition and style I frankly just don't think he does, you're welcome to disagree and lynch him past me since he's just a vt anyway
Potential Groupscums:
Jesus Louisus -- don't love this for groupscum due to being the counter-wagon to RF. Cross-busses are not impossible, particularly given this scumteam in particular seems to like cross-busses, but a mid-game cross-bus like the one between jesus louisus and redflavor seems a bit harder to see as s/s vs. the early game distancing the whole scumteam was doing. Not impossible though. Oh yeah, I also didn't like his comment about pisskop coming from someone who planned to kill him that night, although I guess? it could have been RedFlavor's kill choice? ehhh
DeasVail -- Didn't like him pairing me with Creature in 708, but the more I think about this game I'm kinda warming up to 1274. Obviously that he defended Creature early game and then defended Red in 1493 is not a good look. I also kinda like the list in 1639. The main problem in sorting this slot is that so much of the iso is built around Otter, so if Otter is town it's kinda an additionally bad look. Even so the enthusiasm for the otter lynch feels genuine, in posts such as 2260. I feel pretty conflicted on this slot but there are good points to be made in considering a read either way.
Vork -- I kinda have been second guessing this slot a little since I realized he did the "time for a scum {X}" thing as scum recently, that post was one of the main reasons I didn't like him for main-faction groupscum but outside of that I need to reread what this slot has been doing probably. Actually it's hard to remember what he's done since he's been jarringly absent since day 1? Maybe this is actually a better chance of last groupscum than I thought?
Basically never town, some reasons to think maybe? not last groupscum
nomnomnom -- more to come on this in a bit
Actually can everyone remind me what their read of Vork is right now?
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Post #2429 (isolation #225) » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:22 pm
Postby Kirari Momobami »
HWS slot is complicated, but one thing was the Vork flip. I'm not sure what to do with it but it's something I've thought about a bit so I'll leave my note here.
Spoiler:
In post 468, HeWhoSwims wrote:
Agree with this, also light TR on Kirari/Otter/Vorkuta for the time being.
Not really seeing pisskop scum either
In post 579, HeWhoSwims wrote:Not much yet - as I said I'm due to re-read the game - but after a bit of looking this afternoon I'd say I have a soft scumlean on Vork and Kop.
basically no explanation for this change in read and I'm still not sure what to do about it, Alch argued it was likely to come from town more than scum but I disagreed; I think it can very easily come from scum who is generating fakereads initially and since the read is fake then later struggles to remember what that read was or why they had it. Such a random flip like this seems like it can possibly come from cognitive load.
In post 601, Creature wrote:I wonder what's the resistance to HWS seeing everybody softed a scumread on them but never pulled a train on him like they did to me
This is not a bad argument, but it doesn't make HWS town, it makes it *less likely* that HWS is shared-PT with Creature. It is entirely plausible that Creature is making this play against a scum traitor, which is why Alch's "towncase" is not actually a towncase but rather a not-main-faction case.
*But this is purely based on speculation about how Creature would interact with a scumbuddy*
That is to say this does not make it certain that nom is not main faction group scum, just significantly less likely. This is also not a super deep or prolonged interaction and doesn't require anything from the HWS side. If Creature thought a HWS lynch would give him towncred and that HWS would not be a useful ally, I don't see why he wouldn't bus like this.
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Post #2430 (isolation #226) » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:24 pm
Postby Kirari Momobami »
In post 2427, nomnomnom wrote:If I am traitor and that Otter is town explain to me why I do not hammer him here and buy my groupscum more ground, and instead go to the length of defending Otter and saying he is lynchbait.
I'd love to hear an answer to that one.
Cause you don't win the game with one mislynch? We're not in lylo so wtf are you talking about? For your faction to not get mech'd to death you need to win your 1v1 with me lol. Since he's just a VT you still have no idea what the actual town investigative structure is like aside from the one vig and whatever KK is so you actually have more incentive to push a mislynch on someone unclaimed as well.
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Post #2432 (isolation #227) » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:25 pm
Postby Kirari Momobami »
In post 2428, Nero Cain wrote:I'm sad that I only got a short little sentence. I want a full article about y I'm town.
I fully encourage people to make their own decisions about you and I would like to hear more of Jesus's reasoning on why he thinks you're scum. I'm more confident you're town than several other people, but my opinion on your alignment is not infallible.
Post
Post #2433 (isolation #228) » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:26 pm
Postby Kirari Momobami »
In post 2431, Nero Cain wrote:remind me why in the world you think there is a traitor to begin with?
Because KK probably is not lying about there being an SK and not a vig, and because the scum had an alignment cop and that doesn't really make sense without a use for that cop. While it's not impossible for there to be a "wifom cop" I want to say it is very, very unlikely given the limited power scum usually gets in normal games.
WTF? Where did this come from? This is the 7th time you've even said Vork's name this game and at no point have you actually given an opinion on his alignment.
By the way that's now two people that have asked you for a reads list a total of three times, now four, which you still have failed to produce.
But suddenly Vork is someone we're "not lynching" who you've basically had no opinion on the entire game?
Post
Post #2438 (isolation #231) » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:30 pm
Postby Kirari Momobami »
In post 2436, popsofctown wrote:if traitor is actually halfjester i kinda think no one in this game has been acting like a halfjester. I really think it's just a wifom mafia cop
wtf are you saying halfjester? Traitor is not halfjester, traitor does not want to be lynched and does not want to be shot and does not want to spew their partners scum. That is 0% jester
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Post #2449 (isolation #233) » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:35 pm
Postby Kirari Momobami »
In post 2443, popsofctown wrote:the way normal queue traitor has been explained to me, being alive doesn't help his faction win the game anymore than being dead
a lynch that is used up on the traitor is necessarily not simultaneously used up on the groupscum
halfjester
No.
This is incorrect.
The traitor *cannot solo endgame* but he DOES count for scum wincondition.
If it is 2-1[groupscum]-1[traitor] the groupscum faction immediately wins even if there is a risk of the groupscum shooting the traitor because the traitor counts toward the scum wincon.
Losing a traitor means the groupscum needs an additional mislynch, it is objectively suboptimal for a traitor to get lynched, although the traitor DOES want to get lynched in lieu of the groupscum if they know there is only one groupscum remaining because then they would be endgamed. That's the only time the traitor would play suicidally.
an SK then I think that it makes a traitor almost nonexistent.
Why shouldn't KK full claim?
he probably should claim slightly more since his claim is kinda weird, I'm not disagreeing with you, but I don't see the logic in his claim coming from a scum POV given what he's said so far unless he planned to claim vig tomorrow.
Post
Post #2456 (isolation #236) » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:39 pm
Postby Kirari Momobami »
In post 2451, nomnomnom wrote:People have argued for and against otter WAYYYY more than what they've done with you.
Yes, and a big reason for this is due to the makeup of the wagon pushing him and the fact that 0 people on that wagon have actually produced any particularly compelling arguments one way or the other, including you whose actual argument for ofrhz scum is incredibly weak given how much you're complaining about the lack of support for the wagon LOL
Post
Post #2459 (isolation #237) » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:41 pm
Postby Kirari Momobami »
In post 2454, popsofctown wrote:Is it wrong that I play all my scum games by picking a team deepwolf that busses everyone else and try to get that player to endgame, eschewing all sweeps
cause I do and therefore all my traitors are halfjesters
okay sure but the traitor does not play as a jester, they just play as someone who it is fine for the scumteam to bus if they want to... idk maybe I'm not really gelling with what you mean by "halfjester" but it feels like a needlessly convoluted description. To me traitor plays more like survivor than jester, I'd call it a half-jester. In fact survivors are perhaps better understood as "half-traitors" if you really wanted to get into mech conceptualizations an balance discussions but that's kinda offtopic.
Post
Post #2464 (isolation #238) » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:45 pm
Postby Kirari Momobami »
In post 2330, nomnomnom wrote:The point was more that for me to come up with scum theatre like this I would need to be better than I already am.
I know my weaknesses and this is one of them.
Offtopic but I don't really think I am good honestly, although some people say I am.
In post 2457, nomnomnom wrote:If you ended in a scum game as town against me you would probably lose because you have a wrong image of how I play as scum. People tend to hardcore read me town as scum for a reason
"I'm not good enough to be scum this game"
"I'm so good as scum that you wouldn't be scumreading me this game if I was scum"
Post
Post #2467 (isolation #239) » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:46 pm
Postby Kirari Momobami »
In post 2461, DeasVail wrote:I’ll still ask people to reconsider Otter as an option.
It's maybe worth still thinking about, I don't think the dumbtell makes him 100% town, I've seen scum try to fake dumbtells literally in the last week under not totally different circumstances, but... this particular one I find slightly more convincing :/
I think the level of disengagement necessary for the scumtell to be plausible is concerning regardless
Post
Post #2478 (isolation #243) » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:38 pm
Postby Kirari Momobami »
In post 2461, DeasVail wrote:I’ll still ask people to reconsider Otter as an option.
You know shit this is a point, the slip would only mean that scum don't have a traitor. I don't know why scum had a cop if they don't have a traitor and there's no SK, but you're right that it doesn't in itself make him town... still...
:/
Given the evidence we have that there is a traitor or something, I'm not sure he's a good lynch today. But hopefully I'm not letting him off too easily here?
Post
Post #2483 (isolation #244) » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:02 pm
Postby Kirari Momobami »
So the situation now is that we're not going to get a consensus out of Vork vs. DV and frankly I'm not sure which of the two is scum.
However, nomnom is scum so we should probably just lynch that slot today since I now have very little confidence in Otter flipping scum and I'm not sure who of the remaining candidates I'm right or wrong on.
So let's think through this slot.
HWS/Nom earlyish game
In post 203, HeWhoSwims wrote:Hmm no not a fan of Montosh here. Too serious a reaction and I think Nero has a fair point in reacting to that.
Also it only took Saudade 2 pages to blow up the game, nice.
This is just a weird post and if we look at here
In post 468, HeWhoSwims wrote:I think that's a good catch and I think it really is something scum could do.
He's 0/2 for scumreads right now, and thinking of HWS... it's kinda surprising he has so many scumreads so early almost? HWS isn't bad, exactly, but he is coming off as having much stronger reads than I would expect for early game here
In post 468, HeWhoSwims wrote:Agree with this, also light TR on Kirari/Otter/Vorkuta for the time being.
Not really seeing pisskop scum either
Huh, all of these townreads are still alive, and I know I am town. Pisskop also flipped town, but HWS+Otter or Vork works really well here for s/s.
Mostly though, I have looked at HWS's towngames, and this is kinda a surprisingly structured list given how briefly he was in the game. Usually as town he kinda pokes and prods more early rather than coming out with a whole buncha reads.
In post 579, HeWhoSwims wrote:Not much yet - as I said I'm due to re-read the game - but after a bit of looking this afternoon I'd say I have a soft scumlean on Vork and Kop.
Weird flip on Vork; not sure what it means but it doesn't make me MORE confident that his reads earlier were real
Anyway, nothing town indicative in the iso IMO
Now, Nom has a lot of posts. I don't want to break the site by walling too much but let's look at some selections
In post 1055, nomnomnom wrote:Also waiting for Kirari's result before doing anything today.
Again, this makes zero sense. "Motion" or "no motion" is worth stalling the game over? This is not a town thought process or a town reaction to a claim made in RVS and never mentioned after.
In post 1052, nomnomnom wrote:Also I'm going to be honest this game has a lot of people that are complete ??? in my mind aside from a few people where I have *some* idea of what's happening with them.
Who are the people you have some idea on?
Huh honestly the only person I am sure is town is Kublai. Just town through and through.
There's too much lurking and questionable stuff happening this game on too many fronts to make solid reads. 44 pages on day 1 in a large and most of it is a guy going lolrandomxd. That's bad to build reads.
Considering her predecessor was wagoned early game and there was a wagon on the flipped scum that was killed like, this is a really jarring characterization of day 1. Why does she think it was uninformative?
But this is important given that she wants to keep her lynch options open, lol, something she consistently does through the entire game. nom does a great job of antispewing while posting a lot, which mostly involves her giving scummy 'reactions' rather than sustained analysis
In post 1130, nomnomnom wrote:imo you're reading too much into it, literally would not have thought that ever
Are you just trying to discredit my theory because you share a scum PT with him and this is thwarting your plans?
what a great deduction
nominating this for moment of brilliance
not
scummy overreaction
In post 1172, nomnomnom wrote:I think you're not scumhunting at all, you've been trying to fish things out of people and clearly reaching. None of what you've been doing is actually scumhunting and the small tidbit you've been doing is surface level.
So I think you're scum.
It's interesting that she projects so much confidence here on joining the game but as the game goes on it gets dropped without there ever being a point where she started thinking Jesus was town
In post 1969, nomnomnom wrote:My biggest question is if Jesus is scum, why does he kill Eyes, which was his biggest push before RF did an oopsie.
What's super jarring here is she has this logic about Jesus on *Eyes* but does NOT have this logic about Jesus on pisskop! So she spent the entire preceding dayphase pushing Jesus when Jesus would have had to have pushed his biggest fos before killing, only to then turn around and decide that suddenly NKA is relevant to her read? That's not a townie inconsistency.
need to re-assess eyes soon
That's about where I am. This game is hard to work in re-looking at day one
Now, this isn't that bad of a post, in fact I know two of these reads are correct (given my role pm and Red's scumflip), and another could be correct (KK). But what's *really jarring* here is not this post in itself, but the fact that this post demonstrate that nom can form a readslist early in the game without great difficulty, even if incomplete. Compare that to today when she has been asked 4 times for a readslist and has stalled or skirted the issue every single time. She has shifted to anti-spewing the more she has gotten pushed, trying to make more and more of the game about her 1v1 with me, arguing otter town, and pushing ofrhz for scum with very little logical reasoning given for any other slot. It's like the game consists of 4 people if you look at her iso today.
Now how does she have so many posts when she is talking about so few people? Well look at how she pushes Jesus...
In post 1177, nomnomnom wrote:I just think Jesus has a good chance flipping scum now though.
In post 1211, nomnomnom wrote:Tbh the fact it's a large isn't my problem, just that many slots are hard to sort. The amount of posts this game is absurdly low for a large.
I expected to have better cases replacing in n1 and rereading the thread but I guess things are still a bit shaky.
In post 1349, rosterfoster wrote:Btw Jesus I don’t think Nom is scum. The points they are making are different to Eyes, who is using the whole ‘everyone must act completely logically at all times’ approach.
The problem is that I feel you're using the exact opposite logic though.
"He's constantly irrational, must be town".
One of my problems is that I also have reasons to be careful about Eyes but Jesus is just scummier overall.
In post 1363, nomnomnom wrote:here's a collection of quotes that just ping me, not detailed. I'm not good at cases but these are the posts that I read. What's in here summarizes what I said earlier
Hmm no not a fan of Montosh here. Too serious a reaction and I think Nero has a fair point in reacting to that.
Also it only took Saudade 2 pages to blow up the game, nice.
I read this and thought I had scum pt access for a sec.
VOTE: HeWhoSwims
I'll try to make my question more answerable. Your first few posts were just fluff. This nis the first one that makes some meaning. Why is this scum indicative of HWS? And what's your current read on nomnomnomnomnomnom (to an eternity)?
In post 1381, nomnomnom wrote:I don't think I vote montosh today. Not over Jesus, Eyes or RF.
A massive amount of superficial reasoning on Jesus without every really developing a sustained explanation for how his play fits a scum agenda. No reflection or change in stance toward Jesus when she moves off.
In post 1536, nomnomnom wrote:I'm gonna guess there's a serial killer this game given the flip.
Not an unreasonable inference at this point actually and one of the better points for nom
In post 1537, nomnomnom wrote:The SK would make sense to give to scums having commuters I guess?
This is a weird setup man lol
Agreed, but scum commuters with no scum investigative structure I guess is...? especially vs. half BP vigs? I guess this doesn't really think very critically about Niko's role which was on the stronger side.
In post 1577, nomnomnom wrote:I honestly wonder why scums/SK decided to kill eyes given the heavy push on him yesterday by the way. I find that honestly nonsensical.
I just don't see it.
I kinda already went off about this but I hate the "I just don't see it" posts which are littered throughout her iso which give her a chance to take no stance and basically just make a post that has the other person talk more while she doesn't really reflect on their agenda or their thought process at all. There's a lot of posts where she says "I just don't see it" and this post in particular feels like it contradicts a lot of what she later says.
A Traitor is considered Normal on mafiascum.net, as long as it:
- is Mafia-aligned
- knows the identities of all of the Mafia team
-
identity is not known by the Mafia team, although they should know a Traitor exists
- cannot be recruited to join the rest of the Mafia team, and (unless Bulletproof) is killed if shot
- is endgamed if all other Mafia are dead
- gives a "guilty" result to Cops, an "innocent" result to Gunsmiths, and a "Traitor" result to Role Cops
Going for the wiki quote instead of just explaining how the role works; i.e. making sure she's not perspective slipping on rolecard
In post 1913, nomnomnom wrote:I guess I don't have that much of an opposition for the Montosh wagon.
intent
Compare to:
In post 1381, nomnomnom wrote:I don't think I vote montosh today. Not over Jesus, Eyes or RF.
That she contradicts herself isn't the problem, the fact is that all of her comments about Montosh throughout the day are superficial and since she says so little about her reads in a structured manner it's hard to notice weird flips like this.
In post 2110, nomnomnom wrote:It's also a significant gain to do this for a SK because the conversation changes significantly and the way you hunt for scums changes significantly. It's not something you do with no reason. KK!SK has legitimate reasons to do this so I want to stop the paranoia and make him claim his information. It shouldn't be a problem given the massive advantage town has right now and it would mean we literally just win.
Right now the strongest piece of evidence you have is that you *feel* that there should be a SK in the game.
How about you claim something that justifies that feeling? Any reasoning at all. Anything.
Scum cop.
Weird nightkills.
The fact that 3 scums - 1 traitor would be hella weak.
It just makes more sense to have a configuration with a SK.
"3scums -1 traitor would be hella weak" sounds like scum complaining about the balance of their scumteam; also given the power of creature and redflavor's roles almost objectively untrue
the emphasis on the nightkills being "weird" also continues to bother me
She has before this point basically offered no meaningful read of Otter so this just comes out of nowhere. Notice that about her reads; the majority of them seem like they're just pulled out of thin air
I was on RF's wagon and you guys insisted to get Montosh lynched without a proper case for it and you blame me?
"Whaah I can't be scum because it's not like scum is informed of people's alignments or anything! I wasn't even on a mislynch even though scum has literally been avoiding being on mislynches all game!"
In post 2315, nomnomnom wrote:I wasn't blaming anyone to be on that wagon for what it's worth, just that singling me out for things that happened is weird as fuck.
No one was singling her out for Montosh, she basically brought it up all on her own. In fact if you go back and look, Montosh's name is not even mentioned in the preceeding three pages LOL
In post 2326, nomnomnom wrote:I'd like to also say that you have pushed me both as a SK and a traitor even though these two roles would approach the game radically differently so I can say with confidence that yes, you are reaching and I have trouble discerning if you are a bad townie or a traitor if KK isn't lying.
This is incredibly bad faith since I basically just re-evaluated whether she was SK/traitor based on KK's claim, I never argued she was playing from a traitor perspective, I had her as traitor because of Alch's argument that Creature did not think HWS was same-alignment. So she's failing to actually engage with my read or understand my point of view, which is scummy in that it reflects how quickly she jumped to trying to shade me rather than understand my read.
The point was more that for me to come up with scum theatre like this I would need to be better than I already am.
I know my weaknesses and this is one of them.
Offtopic but I don't really think I am good honestly, although some people say I am.
Directly contradicts her later statements about her own scumrange and is therefore a caught lie
In post 2326, nomnomnom wrote:I'd like to also say that you have pushed me both as a SK and a traitor even though these two roles would approach the game radically differently so I can say with confidence that yes, you are reaching and I have trouble discerning if you are a bad townie or a traitor if KK isn't lying.
Can you say more about how the approaches would be different? There's a sort of independence to both, no?
You do not approach the two roles the same way at all. This is my experience from chat mafia so it might differ from a longer site like this but this is what I think about the two roles.
A traitor is not independant because they are still playing for a larger faction and they need to redirect the heat that are on their partners on themselves. I consider it like a half-jester role if that makes sense. Obviously your aim is not to get lynched but if you redirect attention on yourself instead of your groupscum partners, and if you manage to get a maximum of townies lynched before town lynches you for being a bad townie, then you've done your job.
In contrast as SK you do NOT want attention on yourself from either teams. SK is much harder to play than traitor because you need to carefully tone your actions between "too useful" and "not useful enough". If you go either way you risk losing the game because townies will consider you too scummy or scums will consider you unlynchable. You need to play a much tighter game and that's why people consider it a much harder role to play.
Obviously this is only theory and you'll have people trying to subvert expectations but these are two clear archetypes to look for and they're very different type of people to track for, which is why I give a lot of important to KK's claim being true.
A pointless "why me" wallpost that only reflects how little she has bothered to try to understand my read in good faith.
In post 2396, nomnomnom wrote:I like that with Kirari's explanation I can simultaneously be SK, traitor and groupscum lmao
When the core of my argument is that you're not town, this is in no way shape or form a contradiction. At no point in this game have you approached the game from a town mindset.
In post 2396, nomnomnom wrote:I like that with Kirari's explanation I can simultaneously be SK, traitor and groupscum lmao
all I know is that you ain't town lol
Considering that the three roles approach the game differently I feel you're not even trying to state a case on me
Indeed, she has never tried to actually understand my case in a meaningful way. She always goes immediately to deflection and discrediting to push the read off. That she doesn't understand *I never actually cased her* reflects the extent to which she is playing survivalistically.
In post 2378, nomnomnom wrote:Alternatively you could not hammer and follow me on Of.
I feel like your stated reasons for wanting me lynched are pretty ... weak compared to how much conviction you have in me flipping scum.
Who else do you scumread?
I like Kirari for a traitor here just because of the atrocious analysis and lies she brought up, gives me a pretty typical bad townie traitor vibe.
Again, obviously I'm town so I know it's wrong -- but this is wrong in a scummy, not a townie way. She argues I'm traitor specifically... why? Why would she make this argument? If she thinks I'm scum, why would she not think I'm groupscum? This feels like she is trying to respond to my accusations in kind, again, without, actually understanding why I am accusing her of being traitor and not groupscum for most of this day.
In post 2419, nomnomnom wrote:@Kirari you seriously think Otter is town and that I'm scum?
A random question given I have been saying she's scum for days and literally just said Otter might be town.
WTF? Where did this come from? This is the 7th time you've even said Vork's name this game and at no point have you actually given an opinion on his alignment.
By the way that's now two people that have asked you for a reads list a total of three times, now four, which you still have failed to produce.
But suddenly Vork is someone we're "not lynching" who you've basically had no opinion on the entire game?
I am not going to let you redirect town on lynches at will with one day on the clock, are you insane?
You're trying to cause discord throughout the town and lead to bad lynches. You're asking for reads simply so you can gauge your best chance at a mislynch going through. I read you like a book, don't even pretend you're trying to do anything else.
Again, the resistance to the Of wagon is unreal.
A bizarre, non-townie, over-confident read on someone that she has gone the ENTIRE GAME without reading.
In post 2420, nomnomnom wrote:I'd like to also note that the Of wagon has crazy levels of opposition with literally 0 arguments against her lynch.
No there are arguments against my lynch?
DeasVail gave his arguments, Kirari provided a meta-based one, that's just off the top of my head
There is an inexplicable amount of resistance to your lynch according to the amount of people defending you is what I am saying.
People have argued for and against otter WAYYYY more than what they've done with you.
"Why aren't people joining on ofrhz when I have never made a remotely compelling argument for her to be scum?"
In post 2465, nomnomnom wrote:It's fun that Kirari is trying her hardest to try and decredibilize me whenever I talk about an Of wagon and lynch, and tries to do so by calling my slot a bunch of different scum flavors and is now trying to redirect the heat on me with literally one day on the clock.
If you don't want to believe in my push, just look at how she reacts to my push and perhaps you'll get a clue at what's going on here.
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Post #2510 (isolation #247) » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:34 pm
Postby Kirari Momobami »
In post 2489, popsofctown wrote:what if nom spends 99% of noms posts on setup spec not because nom is antitown but because nom comes from chatroom mafia
She's not spending 99% of her time on setup spec, she's spending 50% of her time choosing one tunnel at a time and the other 50% on setup spec, while avoiding talking about 60% of the people in the game
In post 2489, popsofctown wrote:what if nom spends 99% of noms posts on setup spec not because nom is antitown but because nom comes from chatroom mafia
She's not spending 99% of her time on setup spec, she's spending 50% of her time choosing one tunnel at a time and the other 50% on setup spec, while avoiding talking about 60% of the people in the game
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Post #2518 (isolation #250) » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:38 pm
Postby Kirari Momobami »
In post 2491, nomnomnom wrote:is everything I say a scummy overreaction to you or do you simply not get that I act like this in literally all of my games?
No, I think in your towngames you're more shitposty and seem to be more consistently having a good time, I think you slightly dislike playing scum and are more reactionary as a result
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Post #2524 (isolation #251) » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:41 pm
Postby Kirari Momobami »
In post 2494, DeasVail wrote:Also Kirari there are some things you’ve mentioned about nom that I want to consider but I’m not as convinced by things such as “scummy overreaction” stuff.
I also know I asked before, and I may have missed your response to it, but what does nom do as town that is different from what they have done here.
You really shouldn't ignore scummy overreactions, they're pretty clutch to tonereads
Town nom is more playful and more excited to townblock, something she has done in this game only in a forced and unnatural manner
Like ask yourself, given we have been asking her for a reads list, who does she townread in this game--like just townread? She had 3 townreads in her first day in the game, one of which was me lol. Since then...? She only argued Otter was town because I was pushing the slot which is probably the most inorganic way to townread someone there is
The "I always hard deepwolf as scum!" was kinda needlessly wifomy but I still don't think she hard busses Red in this gamestate with the scum investigative dead and no outed town investigative
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Post #2531 (isolation #253) » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:44 pm
Postby Kirari Momobami »
In post 2504, nomnomnom wrote:I think listening to Kirari reduces chances of town closing this game for the amount of headless chicken syndrome she displayed today.
I've been certain you're scum all day, and Otter I was unsure of but didn't have another better lead. Asking people's reads on Vork after Otter made the weird "traitor" comment is not "headless chicken" syndrome but thanks for another weak attempt at discrediting
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Post #2534 (isolation #255) » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:48 pm
Postby Kirari Momobami »
In post 2517, nomnomnom wrote:Number of posts is not a good meta argument.
Is that really your entire case on Of, as opposed to the "look at town crumble" behavior she's had?
I felt like I was mindmelding with her early game and her observations about Montosh as a consequence of RedFlavor's alignment flip were relatively town indicative.
Also that I can refute your entire case by "postcount" just reinforces that you have been complaining about ofrhz without really giving me anything that doesn't require an incredibly lazy reason to disbelieve.
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Post #2538 (isolation #257) » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:50 pm
Postby Kirari Momobami »
In post 2522, nomnomnom wrote:Do me a favor and read this game and tell me if I actually had a good time there: viewtopic.php?f=84&t=79835
Compared to this game, your early game there is actually quite relaxed -- jokey image macros, claim shenanigans (which again was RVS, but given you yourself do claim shenanigans it's weird that you would start this game focusing on a 'motion detector' claim)
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Post #2548 (isolation #260) » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:57 pm
Postby Kirari Momobami »
Then give a non-shit argument about ofrhz
My read rate on her is like, barely above 60%, but I still see 0 reason to see her as scum in this particular game and several mediocre-to-good reasons to see her as town including general activity and engagement (post rate), reactions to wagons on scum (Redflavor wagon d1), and ability to solve for town for compelling reasons (Montosh read in response to RF).