i designed this setup in 2019 [game over]

[Ranger]

{Save The Dragons}
{tris, Cat Scratch Fever}
{GeorgeBailey}
{McMenno}
{Enchant, Not_Mafia}
{Titus, KittyTacky, High PrincessErinys, Vaxkiller, Morning Tweet, tapiocaphobe, imaginality, Frogsterking, kitten around, Ythan, Quiet Owl}
{andree}
{Lycanfire}
{furtiveglance}
{Gamma Emerald}

P1.

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

[Ranger]

{Save The Dragons}
{tris, Cat Scratch Fever}
{GeorgeBailey}
{McMenno}
{Enchant, Not_Mafia}
{Titus, KittyTacky, HighPrincessErinys, Vaxkiller, Morning Tweet, tapiocaphobe, imaginality, Frogsterking, kitten around, Quiet Owl}
{andree}
{Lycanfire, Ythan}
{furtiveglance}
{Gamma Emerald}

P2.

[Ranger]

{Save The Dragons}
{Frogsterking}
{tris, Cat Scratch Fever}
{GeorgeBailey}
{HighPrincessErinys}
{McMenno}
{Enchant, Not_Mafia}
{Titus, KittyTacky, Vaxkiller, Morning Tweet, tapiocaphobe, imaginality, kitten around, Quiet Owl}
{andree}
{Lycanfire, Ythan}
{furtiveglance}
{Gamma Emerald}

P3.

[Ranger]

{Save The Dragons}
{Frogsterking, tris}
{Cat Scratch Fever}
{GeorgeBailey, Not_Mafia}
{HighPrincessErinys}
{McMenno}
{Enchant}
{Titus, KittyTacky, Vaxkiller, Morning Tweet, tapiocaphobe, imaginality, kitten around, Quiet Owl}
{andree}
{Lycanfire, Ythan}
{furtiveglance}
{Gamma Emerald}

P4.

[Ranger]

{Save The Dragons}
{HighPrincessErinys, Cat Scratch Fever}
{Frogsterking}
{tris}
{Morning Tweet}
{GeorgeBailey, Not_Mafia}
{Enchant}
{kitten around}
{McMenno}
{Titus, KittyTacky, Vaxkiller, tapiocaphobe, imaginality, Quiet Owl}
{andree}
{Ythan}
{furtiveglance}
{Lycanfire}
{Gamma Emerald}

P5.

[Ranger]

I'd like to hear from Ranger on how serious their reads are on George, Princess and Gamma.

You'd need to define 'serious'. The reads are real, but it's rvs. My reads are fluent, so none are strong.

{Save The Dragons}
{HighPrincessErinys, Cat Scratch Fever, Morning Tweet}
{KittyTacky}
{Frogsterking}
{tris}
{GeorgeBailey, Not_Mafia}
{Enchant}
{kitten around}
{Vaxkiller, tapiocaphobe, imaginality, Quiet Owl, McMenno}
{Titus}
{andree}
{Ythan}
{furtiveglance}
{Lycanfire}
{Gamma Emerald}

P6.

[Ranger]

How did you get this from StD's posts?

Meta; StD's an easy read.

{Save The Dragons}
{HighPrincessErinys, Cat Scratch Fever, Morning Tweet, Frogsterking}
{KittyTacky}
{tris}
{GeorgeBailey, Not_Mafia}
{Enchant}
{kitten around}
{McMenno}
{Vaxkiller, tapiocaphobe, Quiet Owl}
{Ythan}
{Titus}
{andree}
{furtiveglance}
{Lycanfire}
{imaginality}
{Gamma Emerald}

P7.

[Ranger]

tris what do you think of imaginality's entrance

I vibe with your scumread. I'm not sure if stronger than Gamma, but is definitely

strongest

tier of scumread rn.

{Save The Dragons}
{HighPrincessErinys, Cat Scratch Fever, Morning Tweet, Frogsterking}
{KittyTacky, tris}
{GeorgeBailey, Not_Mafia}
{Enchant}
{kitten around}
{McMenno}
{Vaxkiller, tapiocaphobe, Quiet Owl}
{Ythan}
{Titus}
{andree}
{furtiveglance}
{Lycanfire}
{Gamma Emerald, imaginality}

P8.

[Ranger]

{Save The Dragons}
{HighPrincessErinys, Cat Scratch Fever, Morning Tweet, Frogsterking}
{KittyTacky, tris}
{GeorgeBailey, Not_Mafia}
{Enchant}
{kitten around}
{McMenno}
{Vaxkiller, tapiocaphobe}
{Ythan}
{Titus}
{andree}
{furtiveglance}
{Lycanfire}
{Quiet Owl}
{Gamma Emerald, imaginality}

P9.

[Ranger]

{Save The Dragons}
{HighPrincessErinys, Cat Scratch Fever, Morning Tweet, Frogsterking}
{KittyTacky, tris}
{GeorgeBailey, Not_Mafia}
{Elements}
{Enchant}
{kitten around}
{McMenno}
{Vaxkiller, tapiocaphobe}
{Ythan}
{Titus}
{furtiveglance}
{Lycanfire}
{Quiet Owl}
{Gamma Emerald, imaginality}

P11.

[Ranger]

{Save The Dragons}
{HighPrincessErinys, Cat Scratch Fever, Morning Tweet, Frogsterking}
{KittyTacky, tris}
{GeorgeBailey, Enchant}
{Elements}
{kitten around}
{McMenno}
{Not_Mafia}
{Vaxkiller, tapiocaphobe}
{Ythan}
{Titus}
{furtiveglance}
{Lycanfire}
{Quiet Owl}
{Gamma Emerald, imaginality}

P13. (Realized my N_M read was stale.)

[Ranger]

{Save The Dragons}
{HighPrincessErinys, Cat Scratch Fever, Morning Tweet, Frogsterking}
{KittyTacky, tris}
{GeorgeBailey, Enchant}
{kitten around}
{Elements}
{McMenno}
{Not_Mafia}
{Vaxkiller, tapiocaphobe}
{Ythan}
{Titus}
{furtiveglance}
{Lycanfire}
{Quiet Owl}
{Gamma Emerald, imaginality}

P14.

VOTE: imaginality

[Ranger]

{Save The Dragons}
{HighPrincessErinys, Cat Scratch Fever, Morning Tweet, Frogsterking}
{KittyTacky, tris}
{GeorgeBailey, Enchant}
{kitten around}
{Elements}
{McMenno}
{Not_Mafia}
{Vaxkiller, tapiocaphobe}
{Ythan}
{furtiveglance}
{Lycanfire}
{Titus}
{Quiet Owl}
{Gamma Emerald, imaginality}

Caught up.

[Ranger]

what the balls have we even played together ranger

Probably not directly but I'm still familiar with your meta.

Great! Now you've caught up do you have any reads?

I recognize the sarcasm, but to answer; I will elaborate on any read I'm asked about. (Just don't ask me to do every read all at once, limit of ~5 at a time.)

Ranger's readwall looks determined to avoid rule of 3.

That's simply the product of no three players sharing an identical read strength at the end of any given page. There was one spot where I had all of {tris, Frogsterking, +1} on one tier, there was a time where I had {Cat Scratch Fever, Morning Tweet, +1} on one tier, etc. It's just that by the end of the page it had solidified to not quite be three and instead had one be higher or lower than the rest.

There will be precisely 3 players in a tier when there are precisely 3 players with the same exact strength in read. No sooner, no later.

Do you think I got schmoozed earlier by quiet owl, ranger?

I think their entrance is disproportionately scum, yes. The callout of multiball feels out of place and potentially TMI. (It's a xyzzy game so I certainly wouldn't be surprised, but entering the game

assuming

multiball isn't town.) Calling CSF-Frogsterking SvT or SvS isn't a thought impossible, but the way the thought was handled makes me believe it wasn't a true town thought. They've given no reads beyond just those two, in spite of apparently being caught up on the game.

I can

see

why you'd think they're town, but I disagree and feel the slot is strongly scum.

[Ranger]

I missed this placement the first time too. I can definitely see myself getting schmoozed out of a good RVS read by this lycan.

Actually, lycan's one of my weakest scumreads. The entrance you thought was town I thought was scum, but it's explicitly not a strong read. Doing an iso there, I still really hate 66, but posts like 114, 120, 318, 320, and 322 all actually look good.

So I think I talked my way into this:

{Save The Dragons}
{HighPrincessErinys, Cat Scratch Fever, Morning Tweet, Frogsterking}
{KittyTacky, tris}
{GeorgeBailey, Enchant}
{kitten around}
{Elements}
{McMenno}
{Lycanfire}
{Not_Mafia}
{Vaxkiller, tapiocaphobe}
{Ythan}
{furtiveglance}
{Titus}
{Quiet Owl}
{Gamma Emerald, imaginality}

[Ranger]

Elaborate more on Gamma? This one's been pretty neutral on her so it'd like to hear reasoning from people who scumread her. That goes for you too,

@Frog

. This one wants to hear your meta evidence on Gamma, as you haven't really shown evidence despite saying you can quote as many as four relevant games.

As it so happens, I'm currently second-guessing my read there (not the full reversal which was Lycanfire), but it amounts to multiple factors.
Gamma feels like she's forcing towniness;
Gamma feels like her response to Frogsterking is overblown;
I vibe with Frogsterking's reasons for scumreading her (they match my own experiences);
I've not liked her stances/takes.

I've since reconsidered the strength of these, doubting my prior strength because Gamma could be forcing the effort as town, with her genuinely sorting. I still lean scum, but not as strongly now.

{Save The Dragons}
{HighPrincessErinys, Cat Scratch Fever, Morning Tweet, Frogsterking}
{KittyTacky, tris}
{GeorgeBailey, Enchant}
{kitten around}
{Elements}
{McMenno}
{Lycanfire}
{Not_Mafia}
{Vaxkiller, tapiocaphobe}
{Ythan}
{furtiveglance}
{Gamma Emerald}
{Titus}
{Quiet Owl}
{imaginality}

[Ranger]

I wish the reads were a bit better explained.

I will elaborate on any read I'm asked about. (Just don't ask me to do every read all at once, limit of ~5 at a time.)

Offer remains open. Can also give citations if my initial explanation lacked them (e.g. I didn't explain Gamma rn with links). Just ask.

[Ranger]

In other news, Ranger's explanation for not having any sets of three seems artificial since you could create any size groupings by distinguishing among players more or less finely. Can someone who's not me and has meta say whether Ranger's lists feel similar to other games or not?

As I've no completed games since returning to playing, it was apt to give a reminder of how they work.

Groupings will be as large or as small as appropriate.

The votes on me are lazy and/or scummy (likely a mix).

Some might be lazy but most aren't scummy, and their push isn't bad.

Your next paragraph is entirely disingenuous imo.

lycanfire is probably town

titus might be scum but i need more data

Agreed.

{Save The Dragons}
{HighPrincessErinys, Cat Scratch Fever, Morning Tweet, Frogsterking}
{KittyTacky, tris}
{Lycanfire}
{GeorgeBailey, Enchant}
{kitten around}
{Elements}
{McMenno}
{Not_Mafia}
{Vaxkiller, tapiocaphobe}
{Ythan}
{furtiveglance}
{Titus}
{Gamma Emerald}
{Quiet Owl}
{imaginality}

P18.

[Ranger]

Still waiting for the tone, instead you call me scum. Sign seal deliver.

This page gives flashes of town-Titus, but I'm not sure yet.

Gamma's posts keep moving between seeing the town and remembering the scum; on P19, she's once more the former.

{Save The Dragons, HighPrincessErinys, Cat Scratch Fever}
{Morning Tweet, Frogsterking}
{KittyTacky, tris, Lycanfire}
{GeorgeBailey, Enchant}
{kitten around}
{Elements}
{McMenno}
{Not_Mafia}
{Vaxkiller, tapiocaphobe}
{Ythan}
{Titus}
{Gamma Emerald, furtiveglance}
{Quiet Owl}
{imaginality}

[Ranger]

VOTE: Elements

I don't vibe with this wagon because I don't see anything suspect from Elements, and somewhat townread her contributions.

I thus vibe with 476.

I'm playing ping-pong on Gamma. Elements's pushes are good.

Not liking Titus that page either.

{Save The Dragons, HighPrincessErinys, Cat Scratch Fever}
{Morning Tweet, Frogsterking}
{KittyTacky, tris, Lycanfire}
{Elements}
{GeorgeBailey, Enchant}
{kitten around}
{McMenno}
{Not_Mafia}
{Vaxkiller, tapiocaphobe}
{Ythan}
{furtiveglance}
{Titus}
{Gamma Emerald, Quiet Owl}
{imaginality}

P20.

[Ranger]

The way Titus (502) and Gamma are engaging the thread right now kinda makes me think Gamma saw Elements vote and decided to capitalize on it. 481 is such an awkward statement and one that Elements is so likely to respond to that I think it makes more sense Gamma was baiting Elements with 481 to draw them into a damning interaction that will look bad after Gamma flips. The comment "oh gee look how fast the imaginify wagon is moving" right after Elements voted makes way more sense if Gamma and Elements aren't associated.

I vibe with this.

{Save The Dragons, HighPrincessErinys, Cat Scratch Fever, Frogsterking}
{Morning Tweet}
{KittyTacky, tris, Lycanfire}
{Elements}
{GeorgeBailey, Enchant, McMenno}
{kitten around}
{Not_Mafia}
{Vaxkiller, tapiocaphobe}
{Ythan}
{furtiveglance}
{Titus}
{Gamma Emerald, Quiet Owl}
{imaginality}

P21.

[Ranger]

Give us links to Gamma.

Remind me next time I post. Got Christmas to celebrate, had just enough time to catch up so can do this, just not now.

[Ranger]

Oops, meant to include this;

{Save The Dragons, HighPrincessErinys, Cat Scratch Fever, Frogsterking}
{Morning Tweet, Lycanfire}
{KittyTacky, tris, Elements}
{GeorgeBailey, Enchant, McMenno}
{kitten around}
{Vaxkiller, tapiocaphobe, Not_Mafia}
{Ythan}
{furtiveglance}
{Titus}
{Gamma Emerald, Quiet Owl}
{imaginality}

[Ranger]

Ranger, I can't believe town!you doesn't get what I am throwing down.

If you mean implying you're masons with imaginality, then I saw, since you've been rather explicit.

It'd be impossible to have missed.

Quite simply, there's no role you could claim which I'd believe. Which is also why I've no qualms outing this. I won't accept any roleclaim of imaginality being conftown here, least of all from you.

If imaginality is town by play then he can be town, but by role he most

certainly

is not.

[Ranger]

I don't ever lock myself into a fake claim day 1 unprompted.

Wouldn't you know it?

You've still not done so!

You're correct you don't lock yourself into a fakeclaim D1. But you're not locked in on any claim right now.

[Ranger]

I think it's pretty clear I'm claiming mason. To argue I am not is asinine and desperate.

That answers half; you are claiming mason explicitly.

I don't believe you're really a mason.

I believe you have a role tied to imaginality, and that role is a role that you feel is at least akin to a mason.

But I don't believe you're a

mason

mason. I don't believe your actual

role

is mason. I don't believe imaginality is confirmed town to you, and vice-versa.

If you say that's unreasonable, my counterargument is explicitly my familiarity with you, Titus. I know how you think and how you treat roles that aren't masons, as if they were masons. I believe you have a role like that. There are dozens of roles which could fit, which in your mind you would call masons, in spite of them not actually being masons. (For instance, a somewhat common example is a two-person role, with two players required for the power role.)

Any role which you have that would have you call imaginality a mason while he is not

literally

confirmed town to you, is a role I would believe you would have. You claiming mason while holding a role like that wouldn't be a fakeclaim in your eyes, and you'd have no fear of locking it in because it's not a lie.

You're certainly no mason though. And don't pretend you are; don't pretend I'm wrong. I'm right, you

know

I'm right, and I'm not letting you protect a scum player off of a role you earnestly believe makes them town which doesn't

actually

make them town.

[Ranger]

{Save The Dragons, HighPrincessErinys, Cat Scratch Fever, Frogsterking}
{Titus}
{Morning Tweet, Lycanfire}
{KittyTacky, tris, Elements}
{GeorgeBailey, Enchant, McMenno}
{kitten around}
{Vaxkiller, tapiocaphobe, Not_Mafia}
{Ythan}
{furtiveglance}
{Gamma Emerald, Quiet Owl}
{imaginality}

(Yes, Titus and imaginality on near-opposite sides. Titus wouldn't pull this maneuver with a scumbuddy, and I believe she's

almost

always town from it. So, Titus is nearly certainly town for the claim. imaginality is not because no matter what Titus

says

, she and imaginality are not

actually

masons and I feel imaginality is scum exploiting Titus's earnest belief their roles make him town.)

[Ranger]

I'm a mason. Period. I was mod told imaginality is town.

And I don't believe xyzzy put masons in this game. Period.

[Ranger]

I also have a PT with them. We are masons.

If so, is the PT open now?

When did it open?

What has been said from there?

(Yes these have purpose.)

[Ranger]

Imaginality is town.

Yes, I get you believe that.

But you're not a mason, so it's not

actually

true.

I'm not letting a fakeclaim save scum from being eliminated.

I know what you

want

to do with the mason claim. It'd work if imaginality were town. But he

isn't

, so it won't.

[Ranger]

Open at start.

Yeah that's a lie. I have a topic and it did not open "at start".

[Ranger]

In my head, gamma-imagination-titus-quiet owl is a logical team solve.

[Ranger]

In my head, gamma-imagination-titus-quiet owl is a logical team solve.

Ignore this, accidentally hit submit, is part of a larger post.

[Ranger]

WHY is imaginality not town?

Well for a start:

My vote wasn't a response to the "town core" voting me

Talk about why you scum read imaginify then.

Vibes and tone

This, exactly. Vibes and tone. For more specifics,

The votes on me are lazy and/or scummy (likely a mix).

Some might be lazy but most aren't scummy, and their push isn't bad.

Your next paragraph is entirely disingenuous imo.

To quote the disingenuous paragraph:

I can understand why, "imaginality mixed up two players and is a bit noncommital so far" is nice easy justification for a vote so it's tempting for scum who don't have to lie to join the wagon. Helps that I'm low activity so not likely to push back as noisily as some players would. It's a wagon scum can hope might lead to a mislim that looks understandable and if it doesn't they don't look bad for being on it and pressuring me to play more.

I vibed with this:

VOTE: imaginality

Why?

He's scumreading you, but confused your post with someone else's. Absent any other stated reason for scumreading you, i think this carelessness is scummy. His HPE read was also a bit of a hedge.

The votes on me are lazy and/or scummy (likely a mix).

I can understand why, "imaginality mixed up two players and is a bit noncommital so far" is nice easy justification for a vote so it's tempting for scum who don't have to lie to join the wagon.

Helps that I'm low activity so not likely to push back as noisily as some players would. It's a wagon scum can hope might lead to a mislim that looks understandable and if it doesn't they don't look bad for being on it and pressuring me to play more.

I did this. It looks like you wanted to encourage a 1v1 between Frogs & Gamma and found the flimsiest reasons to do so - not even closely reading your scumread's posts & trying to piggyback off of my "scumread" on them when in fact I had the opposite read.

I agreed with this.

imaginality just feels rough and ingenuine

Oh so this game started... just had a skim so far...

feels scummy

Frogsterking seems to almost be trying to 1v1 vs Gamma. Seems risky if scum? Doesn't mean he's correct though. I want to know more about these meta reasons for scum reading Gamma.

feels like an observation scum would make instead of a genuine town observation
the second post isn't much better
my one fear is im picking up on tonal stuff that might just be playstyle and i'm not 100% convinced but for now i like my read and i'd love to see more pressure there.

I agree. I was thinking that scum!imaginality knows I'm right about scum!gamma so he plays the "I actually think Gamma could be scum here" card, followed by the "gee I'm not sure card" and the "oh yeah remember how csf said they could BOTH be scum" card etc.
Makes me think imaginality's scum flip will spew csf as town, or, if multiball, unaligned with Gamma and imaginality.

I agreed with this.

In my head, gamma-imagination-titus-quiet owl is a logical team solve.

I independently came to this same basic solve for similar reasons and agree with it; Gamma-imaginality-titus-quiet owl has a lot of protecting each other in ways unnatural.

The votes on me are lazy and/or scummy (likely a mix).

like how fucking easy is it for scum to come up with this bullshit

I thought the narrative "frog is scum who gave up on pushing Gamma and switched to me" was pretty level -1. It's pretty clear they switched to me because I'm the competing wagon. Had I not switched off of Gamma earlier then you can just as easily write "frog is scum who is pretending to death tunnel Gamma" as an excuse to bandwagon me. Without context why they think my read is disingenuous then it's just a lazy, clichè take followed by a naked vote. I'm glad it's a scum slot pushing this narrative rather than a town one.

I agreed with this, and imaginality's post was indeed scummy.

1) I dont like how they're drawing attention to the 1v1. I've mentioned the concept of "acceptable wagons" in past games. It's been a great scumtell for me when someone tries to magnify two people because it provides great protection to scum.
2) i still like frogster despite my concern about them. I don't like the wagon on them and don't think it's good for the game.

I vibed with this.

imaginality just feels rough and ingenuine

Oh so this game started... just had a skim so far...

feels scummy

Frogsterking seems to almost be trying to 1v1 vs Gamma. Seems risky if scum? Doesn't mean he's correct though. I want to know more about these meta reasons for scum reading Gamma.

feels like an observation scum would make instead of a genuine town observation
the second post isn't much better
my one fear is im picking up on tonal stuff that might just be playstyle and i'm not 100% convinced but for now i like my read and i'd love to see more pressure there.

I agreed with this.

The votes on me are lazy and/or scummy (likely a mix). I can understand why, "imaginality mixed up two players and is a bit noncommital so far" is nice easy justification for a vote so it's tempting for scum who don't have to lie to join the wagon. Helps that I'm low activity so not likely to push back as noisily as some players would. It's a wagon scum can hope might lead to a mislim that looks understandable and if it doesn't they don't look bad for being on it and pressuring me to play more.
For this reason I definitely think there are scum voting me.

i feel like most of the votes have nothing to do with this

This is accurate and is why imaginality was being disingenuous in that post.

The votes on me are lazy and/or scummy (likely a mix).

like how fucking easy is it for scum to come up with this bullshit

I agreed with this.

whereas imaginality is responding to arguments against them lazily

I agree with this, and the underlying implication of imaginality's hypocrisy.

Define lazily. I'm going to push you because you're straight up wrong. I'm going to figure out your issue StD and set you correctly.

how fucking easy is it to come and try to discredit the votes against you by calling them scummy
but like imaginality didn't even commit to who was scummy and who was just wrong
LAZY

I agree with this.

tris what do you think of imaginality's entrance

pretty weak tbh

These are my feelings on imaginality's entrance posts into the game.

I've laid out my reasons for being suspicious of imaginality.
Now answer me this: give a single reason beyond the claim for imaginality to be town.

[Ranger]

Speaking of, Ranger, I'm reminding you about the Gamma meta links.

Next post.

b) I would feel bold enough to go toe-to-toe with Frog as scum here and feel like I could come out relatively unscathed. Clearly you don’t believe a), so what about my play so far suggests b) to be true?

You want me to answer that right here right now?

There is a

quite

compelling reason to suggest you'd be bold enough to do precisely that. One you and I are both quite aware of.

we don't have a deadline. why are we rushing to eliminate someone when the case on them is this flimsy?

If I were rushing, I'd be actively campaigning for players to join me in my vote.

I'm making cases because I believe my reads are quite good, but my reads are weak enough that I'm easily swayed by any argument I vibe with.

ranger's extreme whining/fabrication/ought to know better.

In {Titus, Ranger}, I am not the one fabricating anything. Nor am I the one who ought to know better.

[Ranger]

Speaking of, Ranger, I'm reminding you about the Gamma meta links.

Any post not listed is either null or town. (As a reminder, I do see town in there.)
To present the scum half; 43 felt forced. This was andree's iso at the time; Gamma liked andree and nobody else? She had reads on andree and nobody else? 117/196 is a scum "I am not going to do This Thing" post. 146 forced bravado. 151 felt suspect. 192 as well. Projection. 232.
Reaction to vote on her was poor. 278 is a lot more forced than the Princess equivalent.
296 was too weak of a response, and lacked emotion; a town Gamma should've reacted to it. 327 felt out-of-place. 330's defense of imaginality is out of place given 296 prior. 340 felt unnatural. 355 felt too subdued. 436 feels fake. 460 is a scum-oriented thought, at least like that. (Town would try to resolve the conflict in read vs wagon reads.) She also doesn't specify which names on the wagon are what, the very same thing imaginality didn't do. Hated 466.

As a reminder, this is only the scum half; if you want, I can point out the townier things which weaken the scumread there. But she's still south of null for me.

[Ranger]

I don’t understand how she can both townread Titus and still think she’s somehow being less than honest?

Because I know how Titus operates intimately and a town Titus being less than honest is explicitly par for the course.

literally who is rushing to eliminate besides maybe Ranger (and even then her vote might change)?

You're not the first to suggest I'm rushing to eliminate.

Where's the narrative come from?

I'm certainly making a case as to why we shouldn't let imaginality coast on a claim I don't believe is true, but that's far from rushing the day through. My reads will change, especially when given compelling (counter-)arguments.

And, yes, my vote may indeed change.

{Save The Dragons, HighPrincessErinys, Cat Scratch Fever, Frogsterking}
{Titus}
{Morning Tweet, Lycanfire, tris}
{KittyTacky, Elements}
{GeorgeBailey, Enchant, McMenno}
{kitten around}
{Vaxkiller, tapiocaphobe, Not_Mafia}
{Ythan}
{furtiveglance}
{Gamma Emerald}
{Quiet Owl}
{imaginality}

[Ranger]

I am 100% functionally a mason. Neighbor with mod confirmation that my neighbor is town. Yes. That's a mason. Imaginality has the same thing.

I believe this is certainly closer to true, but it's still not the truth.

{Save The Dragons, HighPrincessErinys, Cat Scratch Fever, Frogsterking}
{Titus}
{Morning Tweet, Lycanfire, tris, Elements}
{KittyTacky, Enchant}
{McMenno, kitten around}
{GeorgeBailey}
{Vaxkiller, tapiocaphobe, Not_Mafia}
{Ythan}
{furtiveglance}
{Gamma Emerald}
{Quiet Owl}
{imaginality}

[Ranger]

that Pokemon Mafia game really left some scars, hey?

Since you bring that game up, as a reminder you were scum that game and your play this game is identical.

Ranger and Frogsterking objections make no sense and they keep trying to cast doubt.

My

objections

are I don't townread imaginality by play; I hard-scumread imaginality by play; I

know

how you operate and know the claim is fake.

If my read were so much as

neutral

on imaginality I'd let you do what you're doing. I know the benefit behind your method of operation. But you're protecting scum, so instead of any possible protown benefit, it's explicitly antitown.

If you want to convince me imaginality is town, then do so with his play. Nobody's tried yet, because wouldn't you know? He isn't town by play.

If he truly

were

conftown to you, then you'd be biased in seeing everything in his play as being town, which would make towncasing him easy. By knowing he's town, you'd know why his actions were town and be able to argue this.

But you can't do that, can you?

[Ranger]

Ranger explain to me how you have Titus so high but not believing her claim? If you strongly townread her and she’s saying Imaginality is mod confirmed town, why aren’t you believing her?

I don't believe the claim, but I believe her making the claim makes her town. Town players can and do lie and I explicitly believe Titus is a town liar.

I could be wrong about Titus being town;
I could be wrong about Titus being a liar.

But my belief is Titus is town, lying, because that is what past experience with Titus suggests.

[Ranger]

VOTE: Quiet Owl

I can support this.

I'd also support {Gamma Emerald, furtiveglance, Ythan} votes. In that order of preference.

[Ranger]

This is truly literally idiotic.

No, the theory is sound, and applies in practice to most games including this one.

The exact application you can disagree with, but the theory isn't idiotic. Town are disproportionately active; scum are disproportionately lurky; there are still inactive town; there are still active scum; killing lower-activity slots still hits scum more often than not. It all holds true.

{Save The Dragons, HighPrincessErinys, Cat Scratch Fever, Frogsterking}
{Morning Tweet, Lycanfire, tris}
{Titus}
{KittyTacky, Elements}
{GeorgeBailey, Enchant, McMenno}
{kitten around}
{Vaxkiller, tapiocaphobe, Not_Mafia}
{Ythan}
{furtiveglance}
{Gamma Emerald}
{Quiet Owl}
{imaginality}

[Ranger]

I don't have five suspects because I've been deliberately tilted out of giving a shit about this game. Hold on I'll address that.

While this is easily enough faked, I feel this makes Ythan more likely town. Reneging my support of Ythan wagon because I actually believe she's tilted town.

{Save The Dragons, HighPrincessErinys, Cat Scratch Fever, Frogsterking}
{Morning Tweet, Lycanfire, tris}
{Titus}
{KittyTacky, Elements}
{GeorgeBailey, Enchant, McMenno}
{kitten around}
{Ythan}
{Vaxkiller, tapiocaphobe, Not_Mafia}
{furtiveglance}
{Gamma Emerald}
{Quiet Owl}
{imaginality}

[Ranger]

Ranger, no one is going to towncase imaginality. That's not how it works. I'm not spending my time arguing about things I know to be true. It helps precisely no one. Casing someone means being open to feedback and I'm well NOT.

Cases are to make an argument.

A case is presenting a viewpoint.

A case CAN be simply gathering your beliefs and opening them up to criticism (what you're saying is a case) but I'll bet you most players don’t share that definition, and would instead say the primary purpose of a case is to

convince

players on a read, by presenting the reasons for the read to be true.

If imaginality was truly conftown to you, you wouldn't have needed to use exclusively breadcrumbs of masonry to defend him from the Suspicion.
You would have seen the merits by which he was town, and been able to argue his towniness from your lens of knowing he is town. You would still breadcrumb, but you wouldn’t rely exclusively on breadcrumbs to defend him.

You didn’t, because he's not actually conftown to you and you know it. You didn’t see his posts through the lens of

knowing

he's town and the resulting knowledge letting you see how his posts are town. If you saw so much as a single thing not role related to townread him by, you'd have pointed it out when defending him, with the breadcrumbs as secondary.

Instead, you instantly defaulted to relying exclusively on breadcrumbs to try and avert the wagon on him, because you can't see him as town off of play due to him not being conftown.

I know I'm right and you know I'm right. You might be frustrated by me ruining your gambit, but I am frustrated by your gambit

protecting scum

.

To keep your scumread on imaginality, you have floated through every possible scenario and ignored Frogsterking's behavior because it happens to agree with you.

I have kept my scumread on imaginality for one simple reason:
He doesn’t look town by play;
He looks like scum by play;
Nobody has given me any reason to think differently;
I know you and your methods so I know you're not being truthful.

If you presented a play-based reason for him to be town, I genuinely wouldn't have outed the breadcrumbs in the first place, because I would've believed you. But you didn’t. You relied exclusively on breadcrumbing role, and that told me more than you wanted it to. It told me you were gambiting with a fakeclaim of imaginality being conftown, and you wanted pressure off of him because you genuinely believe your roles make him town.

If I had any reason at all to think imaginality wasn’t scum, I'd let you do your thing. But he

is

scum, no matter how much you believe otherwise, so letting you do your thing is simply too dangerous for the town.

[Ranger]

VOTE: Quiet Owl

[Ranger]

Ranger, no one is going to towncase imaginality. That's not how it works. I'm not spending my time arguing about things I know to be true. It helps precisely no one. Casing someone means being open to feedback and I'm well NOT.

Cases are to make an argument.

A case is presenting a viewpoint.

A case CAN be simply gathering your beliefs and opening them up to criticism (what you're saying is a case) but I'll bet you most players don’t share that definition, and would instead say the primary purpose of a case is to

convince

players on a read, by presenting the reasons for the read to be true.

If imaginality was truly conftown to you, you wouldn't have needed to use exclusively breadcrumbs of masonry to defend him from the Suspicion.
You would have seen the merits by which he was town, and been able to argue his towniness from your lens of knowing he is town. You would still breadcrumb, but you wouldn’t rely exclusively on breadcrumbs to defend him.

You didn’t, because he's not actually conftown to you and you know it. You didn’t see his posts through the lens of

knowing

he's town and the resulting knowledge letting you see how his posts are town. If you saw so much as a single thing not role related to townread him by, you'd have pointed it out when defending him, with the breadcrumbs as secondary.

Instead, you instantly defaulted to relying exclusively on breadcrumbs to try and avert the wagon on him, because you can't see him as town off of play due to him not being conftown.

I know I'm right and you know I'm right. You might be frustrated by me ruining your gambit, but I am frustrated by your gambit

protecting scum

.

To keep your scumread on imaginality, you have floated through every possible scenario and ignored Frogsterking's behavior because it happens to agree with you.

I have kept my scumread on imaginality for one simple reason:
He doesn’t look town by play;
He looks like scum by play;
Nobody has given me any reason to think differently;
I know you and your methods so I know you're not being truthful.

If you presented a play-based reason for him to be town, I genuinely wouldn't have outed the breadcrumbs in the first place, because I would've believed you. But you didn’t. You relied exclusively on breadcrumbing role, and that told me more than you wanted it to. It told me you were gambiting with a fakeclaim of imaginality being conftown, and you wanted pressure off of him because you genuinely believe your roles make him town.

If I had any reason at all to think imaginality wasn’t scum, I'd let you do your thing. But he

is

scum, no matter how much you believe otherwise, so letting you do your thing is simply too dangerous for the town.

Forgot to address Frogsterking.

My reads on imaginality and Frogsterking aren’t linked.

I strongly believe Frogsterking is town; I believe imaginality is scum.

If need be, I can case Frogsterking's towniness. Meanwhile, I'll simply say I'm

certainly

not convinced by any of the scumcases on him. If asked, I'll specify why on the specified case.

[Ranger]

Ranger, no one is going to towncase imaginality. That's not how it works. I'm not spending my time arguing about things I know to be true. It helps precisely no one. Casing someone means being open to feedback and I'm well NOT.

To keep your scumread on imaginality, you have floated through every possible scenario and ignored Frogsterking's behavior because it happens to agree with you. With all due respect, grow the fuck up. Move on if you're town.

I don't know what to tell you Ranger but you need to stop getting tilted by Titus, this is scum!Titus lol

I still can't see why she'd do this as scum, sorry.

[Ranger]

Do you want to explain why you only voted Titus after Ranger did (post-Mason claim)?

I never voted Titus.

[Ranger]

Can I just point out {Frog, CSF, Ranger} KEEP VOTING TOGETHER?

Players who townread each other and who share reads with others tend to do that.

I've no issues voting along-side my strongest townreads. Least of all, when I agree with their votes.

[Ranger]

Ranger have you realized Titus is role phishing you yet?

I don’t see how???

[Ranger]

Wanting to eliminate the claimed mason is really dragging down my morale here, Ranger.

I'm currently voting elsewhere.

I'll return if I see reason to, but I see no reason to needlessly waste my vote there despite my read.

[Ranger]

My issue is that none of y’all seem to actually give a shit about any specific vote to pull the others back/stay when the others move

I don't see reason to, yet. We've no deadline to contend with. If Frogsterking were actually in danger, perhaps there'd be pressure to work more cohesively, but while he's a leading wagon, he's not in lethal range.

Looking through the page HPE doesn't seem to care about Elements. Just seemed like it dropped a gotcha, but it's a pretty good gotcha considering how easy of a throwaway comment the earlier posts are in RVS.

I think I finally understand what you were saying, that the scumread was implied in 517 due to the nature of the gotcha. That wasn't really clear to me, because from HPE's posting, I would gather it's townreading Gamma or something.
As for the gotcha itself, I think Gamma noticed that Titus was softing masons with imaginality (463) and then decided to jump in the proverbial line of fire. Does it have more meaning to you?

Good point. Looks LAMIST. Let's consider two consequences
1) If nobody else realized it, now they surely would (this happened)
2) Titus would feel even more assured that the original comment was onto her eventual claim.
If Gamma wants to whiteknight imaginality that hard, they should be pretty convinced they're town, which is easy if they know they're town. If Gamma just wanted to tip their hat to Titus and get some mutual reads going, she could have been more subtle about it. Being as obvious as they were in hindsight it was pretty much guaranteed Titus would claim

something

because Titus already said too much, but it's only townie if Titus is the one to help expose her own role.

This is a wordier way of saying it, but this is one of the reasons I feel Gamma is suspect. Her handling of the mason soft was very forced.

The sooner it was mentioned, the more likely the wolf.

Guess which player was the first to bring multiball up, in their very first post.

[Ranger]

Ranger had a top town read that had 3 posts up to this point: of viewtopic.php?p=13588125#p13588125

It's StD; that's two more than I need.
You don't know how easy StD is to meta. He's got such a strong contrast between his town/scumgames it's obvious from

one

post; I had three times that amount. He's literally among the top-5 easiest players to read onsite. I had plenty.

This case is incredibly forced

Well, yeah.

My reads are fluid, my read on Gamma keeps ping-ponging around, and I was asked to case Gamma.

Why should Gamma have a comment for every single person?

She doesn't, but having a comment for

only one

is suspect. What made andree specifically the only player worth talking about?

117 is a stretch, saying you're not going to do meta is co pletely valid.

How many scum players justify being outside of their town metas by saying they're not going to do something which is a signature of their town meta? (The answer is A Lot.)

Gamma is well-known for the trait she said she would avoid in 117/196. Commenting about deliberately avoiding it is more suspect than not doing it; scum are self-aware when not doing a Town Thing.

and 146, felt like Gamma was hinting at something or cautioning rather than bravado.

It's bravado

because

it's hinting at something. That's

why

it's bravado.

Then after a bunch of potshots it comes out to sort of null

Yes. I've been rather explicit about how fluid my reads are.

I was specifically asked to point out the scummier half of Gamma's iso. I did what I was requested to.

None of my reads are strong enough for any case to be slam-dunk.

Currently Ranger is vote parked on someone that she hasn't said a word about

I was the FIRST to point out Quiet Owl's suspect use of multiball. I've had Quiet Owl as scum the entire game. I've noted Quiet Owl as suspect well before anyone else.

[Ranger]

There’s a neighborhood. Ranger + others + I are in it. I would rather not out the others without permission but that is true Ranger is in a hood.

I'd have preferred you not outing this, MathBlade. I was quite capable of answering that without outing the existence of the hood or the members of it. Titus knows better than to assume I'd lie about having a PT; I could have simply reminded her of that and specified a lack of desire to out it does not mean a nonexistence of it.

Please look at the link between Frogster, CSF and Rsnger voting together despite none towncasing each other.

You're the second player to make this narrative, but looking at the game, I don't think it actually holds.

We've voted together twice, on imaginality and now Quiet Owl.

I'm fairly certain both CatScratchFever and Frogsterking have made more votes than that. Votes I did not join them on.

[Ranger]

I think that there is an insane amount of overlap between town posting and scum posting to the point where everything is almost a guess -- at least on D1

This is true from an uninformed view--where Titus doesn't actually know imaginality's alignment.

It's explicitly not true from an informed perspective. Titus would know imaginality's alignment, therefore

nothing

would be a guess to her. With her knowing imaginality is town, she'd know everything he did came from a town perspective. Knowing everything comes from a town perspective and additionally having a private topic with him, she'd know his

exact

process, and

why

it was town. Being conftown removes the guesswork from the equation.

I mean, yeah, weird that she didn't at bare minimum let imagine do his thing or defend him from an angle other than "We're both conf!town". I could see Titus and imagine's wincon's being intertwined on like a 2 person team split from the main group(s), maybe. It makes absolutely no sense for her to claim masons with say a mafia scumbuddy. It also doesn't make sense to reveal that you're both masons at the beginning of the game as actual masons?? Why wouldn't you just reveal that imagine is a mason, at worst?

And now you know where I'm coming from with my viewpoint.

It's not two scumbuddies.

But it also makes no sense to be two town being truthful.

[Ranger]

It doesn't say you joined on every vote. You just are voting together frequently but everytime you're asked to defend each other it's crickets and a deflection like this one.

And my point is that we actually

haven't

voted together frequently.

We've voted together

twice

.

Twice is not frequent.

I see no reason to defend CatScratchFlavor; they have 0 votes.

I

could

defend Frogsterking, but he's capable of defending himself and 6 votes isn't lethal. He's not in danger, so it's actually better for me

not

to defend him. You like VCA, the logic behind choosing not to dissolve a wagon shouldn't be lost on you.

[Ranger]

Ranger's mental juitsu about why she doesn't have to defend a person with six votes but I have to defend someone who has no votes is ridiculous.

Are you

trying

to be disingenuous?

I'm

choosing

not to defend Frogsterking while he's at six votes; that doesn't mean I

can't

. Were I to, it'd be entirely off of play.

You

chose

to defend imaginality while he was at zero votes; instead of using just play or a mixture of play and breadcrumbing, you exclusively did so with breadcrumbing masons.

You're comparing an orange to an apple.

[Ranger]

well this thread exploded
who wants to catch up with me

Apparently me. :P

[Ranger]

Why is my slot so high on your reads being a replace?

Well you weren't in the game when I made my last readslist.

Your slot's that high because I vibed with tris's posts and they looked town.

Yours continue to do so.

[Ranger]

Wouldn't they lay the ground work prior to mid day 1 where they instead try to shout down a mason claim? Not really the scenario I see jester!Ranger in.

I'm also one of few players onsite to have a Jester game. (A bad one mind you, and I'm a different person from back then, but

technically

, it exists.)

The 3p hunting is eyebrow-raising btw. I'll need to see where it originates from, because we should be hunting scum; hunting 3p is proscum.

[Ranger]

Math pretending to be empathetic toward Titus is a good sign that Math is lying.

*middle finger gif*

I agree that's over the line.

I also think it's proof Frogsterking is town.

[Ranger]

I think you should; the Frogs wagon is really sticky and p obviously not going anywhere barring some more aggressive vote canvassing.

That's precisely why I don't want to yet. Having the wagon not go away on its own has value. Anyone fond of VCA should know what.

[Ranger]

you're all idiots

Welcome to the townbloc.

Is there something I am missing here?

For a start, we had two nightkills. We had a flipped Psychiatrist. Together those indicate we have a serial killer. I vibe with the idea Titus + imaginality are a serial killer duo.

Maybe they could've been converted to a duo of town vig had Frogsterking targeted them, but given he was limmed D1, any chance of the malevolent 3p being cured died with him, and thus, Titus/imaginality should be treated as essentially outed malevolent 3p.

Both kills are offwagon, we lim on wagon today
VOTE: Quiet Owl

Agreed.

VOTE: Quiet Owl

I'd also vote {imaginality, furtiveglance, Gamma Emerald} for sure; {Not_Mafia, Enchant} both possible but less preferred.

[Ranger]

I don't really agree that psychiatrist is powerful PR, but it points we have Serial Killer.

Let me run you through the process I have.

We know there was a Psychiatrist. Psychiatrists specifically cure Serial Killers.

We have two nightkills last night, indicating a serial killer was active last night.

We have a duo, Titus + imaginality, who have claimed masons, but whose play does not match that of town masons.

My conclusion is Titus and imaginality are likely a serial killer duo, who likely could have been converted into a vigilante duo had Frogsterking targeted them.

I would happily vote imaginality as a result. There's arguments to be made on holding back. Leashing the serial killers is potentially viable; the theory of them being 3p, while sound, is not 100% definitive, and usually it's better to hunt for scum than to hunt for 3p. I feel a discussion is warranted, but will happily park my vote on anyone with a high chance of being nontown. What type of scum we eliminate is less important; eliminating scum regardless of type is the goal.

[Ranger]

Let's do this. VOTE: Imaginality

I'm waiting for more people to give feedback, including notably waiting on Titus/imaginality to provide their response. (I have a fairly good idea what I am expecting from them, but I want it confirmed.)

Pending feedback, will join you there.

{HighPrincessErinys, Cat Scratch Fever, MathBlade, Prince of Paterson, Gimli}
{Lycanfire}
{KittyTacky}
{Elements}
{McMenno}
{kitten around}
{UltimateGamer}
{Not_Mafia, Enchant, GeorgeBailey}
{furtiveglance}
{Gamma Emerald, Quiet Owl}
---
{Titus, imaginality}

Tentative list.

[Ranger]

I buy UltimateGamer as newb(tomafscum)-town.

the hood (StD) and tweetie were in is rather large, I know because I'm in it. So imaginality + titus may be scum or not, but evaluating their claim alongside the hood flip doesn't make sense

Wait a godamn minute here... Would you be able to say exactly how many people are in this hood?

yes, there's 10 people who were in it to start. 8 are still alive.

Do I need to lay out why needlessly outing this information is +scum from Gamma?

'Cause there was no protown reason to out that.

{HighPrincessErinys, Cat Scratch Fever, MathBlade, Prince of Paterson, Gimli}
{Lycanfire}
{KittyTacky}
{Elements}
{UltimateGamer}
{McMenno}
{kitten around}
{Not_Mafia, Enchant, GeorgeBailey}
{furtiveglance}
{Quiet Owl}
{Gamma Emerald}
---
{Titus, imaginality}

[Ranger]

There was a mod error in me having not received something I was meant to; this error has been corrected and I have now received it. Presumably,

@MathBlade

, this was what you meant.

This is baseless setup spec and outguessing the mod, but I guess there's one single token VT.

I've a different number in mind but outing it would be +scum.

yes there fucking was, half-baked setup spec is not something I want going on

There were ways other than claiming to clear things up. Notably, explaining that masons != neighbors from the getgo. Do that, and then there's no need to out at all, as the entire issue spawned from that misunderstanding.

Ranger: if Gamma were scum she would have blabbed it in scumchat. Unless SK or traitor. Frankly at a 10p neighbourhood I think day 2 is a good time to reveal it to the game thread. It's so big that it's gotta have scum in it. Seems pro-town to me. What's up?

Blabbing about it in gamethread is +scum regardless. This is a xyzzy game, nothing is guaranteed. If there's scum it's Gamma who would've blabbed, but there's a chance there wasn't scum and Gamma needlessly outed.

And in the Gamma-is-scum-who-blabbed world, outing the neighborhood is still +scum, because it removes the potential for scum to slip TMI inthread. By having left the neighborhood unclaimed, it was possible for scum outside the neighborhood to display TMI specifically

because

if scum blabbed, they'd know. Now by having outted it, that TMI cannot appear.

It EITHER: gives scum info they didn't have,
OR: removes the ability for scum to scumslip TMI.

Regardless of Gamma-town or Gamma-scum the move was +scum and I feel Gamma-scum is incredibly likely given her previously established mindset.

[Ranger]

I don't really agree that psychiatrist is powerful PR, but it points we have Serial Killer.

Let me run you through the process I have.

We know there was a Psychiatrist. Psychiatrists specifically cure Serial Killers.

We have two nightkills last night, indicating a serial killer was active last night.

We have a duo, Titus + imaginality, who have claimed masons, but whose play does not match that of town masons.

My conclusion is Titus and imaginality are likely a serial killer duo, who likely could have been converted into a vigilante duo had Frogsterking targeted them.

I would happily vote imaginality as a result. There's arguments to be made on holding back. Leashing the serial killers is potentially viable; the theory of them being 3p, while sound, is not 100% definitive, and usually it's better to hunt for scum than to hunt for 3p. I feel a discussion is warranted, but will happily park my vote on anyone with a high chance of being nontown. What type of scum we eliminate is less important; eliminating scum regardless of type is the goal.

Um. On what you builded this theory

835, 871, 967, 1109, 960 from MT (MT died last night and is conftown), 1185 from Prince, 1187 from Prince, 1194 from Prince, 1197 from Prince.

imaginality's play has been suspect from the onset. The only reason he wasn't put under pressure was Titus covering for him. Titus herself covered for imaginality in a suspect way; instead of defending him by play and only resorting to breadcrumbs, she went straight to breadcrumbs and didn't even try to argue anything else. Their play doesn't match that of actual masons.

Then, we have two kills last night, one of them being Morning Tweet, a player who was suspect of them. Two kills suggests serial killer.
Frogsterking was a Psychiatrist. Psychiatrist suggests serial killer.
By mod meta, it is quite likely for there to be a serial killer duo as that is a known role which xyzzy would both be familiar with and likely to employ.

Everything fits.

[Ranger]

I'm actually more cryptic as town :P

Indeed.

So why aren't you being cryptic here?
You outed a neighborhood which you could've been cryptic about.

I'm frankly frustrated about having to defend something that everyone else would just have be accepted.

Perhaps because your attitude up to and including this post do not fit that of a mason, especially not

you

as a mason? This isn't your play as a mason; this is your play when

pretending

to be a mason.

VOTE: imaginality

[Ranger]

I wouldn't put it past xyzy to put a Jester in here

We had this talk on D1.
It is still just as +scum on D2 as it was on D1.

He never did supply those meta links he supposedly had. Makes this one a little doubtful about it but it's not sure considering Frog is big into meta.

It's almost like rushing through the elimination on him was +scum and in part was to shut him up!

{Enchant, Not_Mafia, Quiet Owl, Gamma Emerald}

cannot

be all town. There

must

be at least 1 scum within, likely 2. (I don't think all four are. 3's

possible

, but less likely.)

I don’t think she’d likely use the phrase “mod confirmed” if scum - especially how much she’s insisting on it.

That's

exactly

what makes it fake. An actual town Titus wouldn't need to use that phrase and wouldn't need to keep insisting on it.

[Ranger]

I can indeed confirm I am the co-mod of this game. This can be found in the rules in the quoted section below:

Korina is a co-moderator for this game; posts by them are official.

For the record, I received the correction of the mod error from Korina (not xyzzy), at around this time, to give you an idea of when the message came through.

[Ranger]

Why do you say serial killer duo fits?

Logical deduction. Read 1200, 1202, and 1326, as well as every linked post within.

The reasoning for there to be a Serial Killer is quite clear;
We had a flipped psychiatrist;
We had two kills last night.

The reasoning for Titus+Imaginality to be a Serial Killer duo flows from the above, combined with NKA and general mod setup speculation.

Morning Tweet died last night; MT was an advocate of Titus + Imaginality being 3p.

If Titus + Imaginality had a chance to convert into a Town Vig duo, then Titus + Imaginality claiming masons wouldn't be a lie from Titus's perspective; in her mind, as long as a Psychiatrist could target them and convert them, they could and would be town. (Admittedly, this requires knowledge of a Psychiatrist existing, but I buy that xyzzy would inform the serial killer duo of the psychiatrist.)

Titus's play doesn't fit as an actual mason defending someone she knows to be town;
imaginality's play doesn't look remotely town at all.

All-in-all, the idea fits. xyzzy put a Psychiatrist in the game; there were two kills last night supporting a Serial Killer existing; Morning Tweet advocated for Titus + Imaginality to be a 3p duo (and then died); xyzzy would be the type of mod to create a Serial Killer duo; xyzzy would be the type of mod to create a Serial Killer duo that would convert into a Vig duo if converted by a Psychiatrist (half-proven by the existence of the Psychiatrist in the first place); imaginality's play is explicitly not town; Titus's play is explicitly not that of an actual town mason.

It does require some conjecture, but I feel it's the explanation which makes the most sense with the information we have available.

[Ranger]

Like what meta reason?

Titus's play matches her play of faking masons, rather than her play when she actually IS a mason. When Titus actually is a mason, she defends her masonbuddies off of play. She'll still breadcrumb, but her breadcrumbs are not meant as a defense. She might breadcrumb to specific players to try and signal to specific players, but she won't breadcrumb to every player to signal to every player.

When Titus is faking a mason, she needs to emphasize the masonry, so she defends her "mason"buddy off of breadcrumbs.

This is also notably imaginality's scumplay by meta. Compare to this scumgame; his play here is nearly identical.

It fits by mod meta because xyzzy is fond of old-timey roles. A serial killer duo is an old-timey role which was commonplace in larges at a time xyzzy was quite active, and the game being designed in 2019 supports this. A psychiatrist is an old-timey role commonplace as an answer to a serial killer, able to convert them to a vig. Combining the two is not unheard of (altho I wouldn't be able to find a game with it), and by my understanding of xyzzy's setups, is exactly the type of role interaction xyzzy would use.

[Ranger]

Who is scum if we're town?

Well you're not groupscum regardless so the answer of who is scum remains the same:

{Not_Mafia, Enchant, GeorgeBailey}
{furtiveglance}
{Quiet Owl}
{Gamma Emerald}

{Gamma Emerald, Quiet Owl} top my charts.
{furtiveglance} is quiet likely.
{Not_Mafia, Enchant, GeorgeBailey} has a high chance of containing scum, too.

[Ranger]

That's exactly what makes it fake. An actual town Titus wouldn't need to use that phrase and wouldn't need to keep insisting on it.

That's saying because I defend myself it's fake.

It's not the defense, it's the method of defense.

[Ranger]

And we care if Titus / imaginality are SK because? Let it be scum’s problem. It’s sure not mine. I will review your case but even if we assume Titus/imagine SK that means group scum exists.

We care because removing a second nontown nightkill from the game is protown. Morning Tweet and Save The Dragons were the nightkills last night; I'd say both slots were among the towniest voices in the game, and both were power roles.

I get the argument you're making; eliminating 3p isn't eliminating groupscum, and the serial killers are a wildcard that scum want gone. Yet, scum likely won't do the job for us if they fear the serial killers are bulletproof, and can use the presence of a serial killer to mask their scumness. Serial killers allow scum to legitimately scumhunt, which makes it harder to find scum. Remove the serial killers, and you remove the ability for the scum to fake-scumhunt.

Plus, as proven by last night being two of the towniest slots being nightkilled, the serial killer kill has thusfar been demonstrably on the townier slots in the game; given this pattern, there's no reason to believe the serial killer will suddenly hit scum. It's quite likely they continue to shoot town, and town who wouldn't be mislimmed at that.

Clear enough. Ranger's focus on us to me is scummy.

That's disingenuous to my content. I entered voting Quiet Owl, and my posts are not focused on you. I've explained my stance on you when asked, but my focus has otherwise been on {Quiet Owl, Gamma Emerald} in particular. I even noted there was an argument to be made of not voting in your duo, and moved my vote only when there was momentum present and you had provided a response I felt indicated I was right in my deductions.

[Ranger]

Can we do Gmili, Patterson or Owl?

Gimli and Patterson are both town.

We can do Quiet Owl.

[Ranger]

I hate to be this blunt but it’s in the why do we care again? If I take everything you’re as gospel truth, why do I care?

Well scum aren't going to shoot a serial killer they suspect is bulletproof;
Scum can use the presence of a serial killer to genuinely scumhunt, making it harder to catch scum (remove the sk and scum have to fake scumhunt and fake scumhunting is easier to catch);
The kills last night indicate the serial killer kill is not aimed at anyone remotely mislimmable, instead killing the towniest slots in the game;
Given the kills suggest no intention to hit scum, there's no benefit to keeping the serial killers around, and direct harm from doing so.

[Ranger]

Gamma's self-vote is very very townie. I don't see scum gamma throwing the game along with her teamates unless it was a coordinated effort. It does not feel like a coordinated effort.

I realize you're new to mafiascum so you wouldn't be as familiar with the tactic Appeal to Emotion per mafiascum meta.

Gamma's self-vote isn't very townie; Gamma's self-vote was

strategic

.

Not_Mafia and Enchant jumping on that immediately after however... Is not something I like to see.

Ironically, I agree with this, but for different reasoning.

I feel it's quite likely 1-2 of them are scum

with

Gamma, and their joining Gamma in her self-vote was an extension of the strategy.

Like there's a world where she's scum, but I think it's not nearly as likely as frustrated angry townie who is fed up.

I've seen Gamma as frustrated town.

This does not look like Gamma as frustrated town.

[Ranger]

Let me elaborate on this:
When have you experienced frustrated-town Gamma? Not

seen

, but

experienced

.

I haven't

played

with you before, so I haven't firsthand

experienced

frustrated-town Gamma. But I didn't say experienced; I said

seen

because

that

, I

have

.

My word choice was apt.

I can definitely see McMenno as scum but I'm currently not shifting my vote

Gamma, what made you self-vote? I can't see a trigger for it

An excellent question!

[Ranger]

I want people to look at 1392 and tell me what alignment that post looks like. Disregarding claims, in a vacuum; how would you be reading imaginality from his posting?

[Ranger]

Has gamma set a prescedent of pulling these manuvers as scum? From my experience she is not one to do that.

I believe so, but I'm admittedly less certain of this. Would take verifying.

But this Mechmo wagon that has suddenly formed out of nowhere. Really looks bad to me.

Agreed.

It is noteworthy that most of the people on the wagon and supporting the wagon think other members of the wagon are suspect.

That usually isn't a good sign.

The names on the wagon are largely slots I feel have a high chance of being nontown.

All of that off of "lol lurker" logic, not even accounting for McMenno's play. McMenno's iso is actually quite town, and yet not a single voter has taken a single look at the contents within, basing their vote purely off of McMenno being on the Frogsterking wagon and McMenno having a low post count (something McMenno is known to have regardless of alignment).

It's transparently terrible.

[Ranger]

then maybe listen to people who

have

experienced it. UG has certainly experienced it, in a circumstance not unlike this one

On a different website with different meta.

I trust meta I've personally observed (not being a player doesn't mean I wasn't there reading) over meta from a different site with a different meta.

Unless you want to argue UG has meta on this site of you, I shall trust my own experience over that of someone whose experience is less relevant given the change.

If we were playing mafia on the site you and UG know each other from, I would trust UG's read on you because UG has the expertise on you from that site. But you're not new to this site, UG IS new to this site, and you have mafiascum specific meta that is not present on other sites.

Don't pretend you don't, that your play here is identical to your play elsewhere.

[Ranger]

I want people to look at 1392 and tell me what alignment that post looks like. Disregarding claims, in a vacuum; how would you be reading imaginality from his posting?

I see New Scum who was not being active enough, got prodded by teammates so they made a big post about why them and Titus were not killed, gives some novelty reads to make it seem like they're making real deductions and planted a voted for a nice safe person for a mislim. It looks really bad is what I'm saying.

Precisely.

Me, Titus, Furtive, Imagine
is that not the whole McMenno wagon?

Plus MathBlade, with Gamma indicating support as well.

[Ranger]

Wha tis your frame of reference for "frustraded-town Gamma"?

That'd take time to gather. I'd need to sort through all the games I've seen you in, find specifically the town games, and then specifically the games you were frustrated in. Since it's not immediately apparent which games you're frustrated in, that requires reading 100-300 posts per game.

You understand the workload there, correct? It's not insignificant.

To give an idea of how many games I'd have to sift through to find them,

Spoiler: I've read (parts of) all of the following

Mini 1838
Mini 1841
Mini 1843
Mini 1844
Mini 1847
Mini 1860
Mini 1862
Mini 1865
Mini 1893
Mini 1908
Mini 1920
Mini 1934 (Civilization Mafia Mafia)
Mini 1985
Mini 1996
Mini 2002
Mini 2023
Mini 2027
Mini 2033
Mini 2041
Mini 2052
Mini 2071
Mini 2076
Mini 2088
Mini 2159
Mini 2166
Mini 2170
Mini 2187
Mini 2193
Mini 2226
Mini 2245
Mini 2249
Mini 2252
Mini 2272
Mini 2276
Mini 2277

Mini 1995 (well, you're part of a hydra there so not best example)
Mini 2000
Mini 2017
Mini 2039
Mini 2077
Mini 2096
Mini 2189
Mini 2194
Mini 2217
Mini 2225

Large Normal 199
Large Normal 200
Large Normal 201
Large Normal 203
Large Normal 214
Large Normal 215
Large Normal 217
Large Normal 240

Micro 846

Star Wars Rogue One
WWF Mafia Royal Rumble
Night And Day Mafia
Anything uPick
A Story Revisited
((E

Lim

inate)) The Wolves
Anime Upick King
Krazy's Anime UPick
Mystery Box of Silver 5
Pokemon Fusion UPick
Alisae V Pine
Doubles Mafia
Mystery Box of Silver 10
Among Us Mafia
Townstumps Mafia
Final Fantasy XIV (albeit a hydra)
AI UPick Part II
Manatee's Pokemon Large Theme
Not Quite Normal Multiball II (well you were under an alt)
TFT Upick

Open 741

Team Mafia 2020 Untrod Tripod Destroys Anime


A xyzzy game, no deadlines mafia

I've read your play in all of those (at least in part). I lack a photographic memory so I don't remember everything about your play from all of those games, so it'd take me manually sifting through each and every one.
You can understand the effort involved in that, yes? That's sifting through 77 games, each with potentially dozens if not hundreds of posts from you, in order to find the specific thing.

I read those games so I picked up the knowledge. I've seen your town AtE and your scum equivalent and feel this is the scum equivalent. But with 77 games to sift through, I wouldn't be able to remember

where

I saw the town AtE and where I saw the scum AtE because the AtE isn't in every game. I still saw it though, and if you sifted through those games you'd be able to confirm I have seen it. But you're not going to for the same reason I don't want to: it's too much effort. (Even just compiling this list of games took over 2 hours. To actually sift through each game would be an additional 2-6.)

[Ranger]

VOTE: Titus
Eh

If you're going to vote in the {Titus, imaginality} duo, that's not the half to vote.

[Ranger]

I've strong distaste for both the McMenno and kitten around wagons.

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

Would prefer {Gamma Emerald, Quiet Owl, (Titus/Imaginality)} as votes.

[Ranger]

Maybe someone can sell me on it. Anyone wanna give a good rundown on the Owl scum read?

Quiet Owl was involved in the quickhammering of Frogsterking yesterday. Of {Enchant, Not_Mafia, Quiet Owl, Gamma Emerald}, he is one of the top two suspects. (Not_Mafia and Enchant both have reputations for hammering.)

Quiet Owl and Gamma Emerald have high partner equity, with them having defended each other the majority of the game.

Do you think I got schmoozed earlier by quiet owl, ranger?

I think their entrance is disproportionately scum, yes. The callout of multiball feels out of place and potentially TMI. (It's a xyzzy game so I certainly wouldn't be surprised, but entering the game

assuming

multiball isn't town.) Calling CSF-Frogsterking SvT or SvS isn't a thought impossible, but the way the thought was handled makes me believe it wasn't a true town thought. They've given no reads beyond just those two, in spite of apparently being caught up on the game.

Quiet Owl's activity is on the bottom half of the playerlist, indicating a level of activity I find +scum.

I've not liked any of his pushes; I feel his reads being entirely different than my own is +scum indicative.

None of his posts have looked town to me.

It's not slam-dunk, but it's what I have.

[Ranger]

Maybe someone can sell me on it. Anyone wanna give a good rundown on the Owl scum read?

1145 is a bad hop onto the Frog wagon. I'd also argue that Quiet Owl is a newer player from a skim of their meta, and that typically isn't how new players react to TPR claims

Their solving is very unnatural, e.g. the early multiball comment as well as 1035. In 906, they drop a play-by-play analysis of Frog with many reasons to scumread Frog and few reasons to townread Frog. They then go on to say that they were actually townreading Frogs in 977. So what was the purpose of that analysis? It seems like they wanted to show how much solving they were doing, but it wasn't with the goal of limming scum in mind.

Also look at how they've scumread me for basically the whole game, but don't talk to me. They've also avoided engaging with other people- (1252) is another example

This is a better case.

[Ranger]

Do you think there's scum voting for McMenno?

I do! I believe furtiveglance is scum.
Additionally, I believe {Titus, imaginality} aren't town.

I'm disinclined to join a wagon I feel has at most 1 town on it.

[Ranger]

Owl's 906 tone not aligning with their later conclusions is strange, I agree. I don't like their current scumreads either, I think Cat Scratch Fever is town. I would like to see more from them though, I don't feel confident in voting there.

I feel confident.

Quiet Owl has had plenty of time to provide content.

It won't suddenly improve.

[Ranger]

would a "serial killer duo" be basically a 2-person scumteam with 1 kill?

This is what I meant, yes.

[Ranger]

Came out of this post with a quiet owl townread. Reads like newb trying to make sense of the horrors of trying to read people's alignments in a game of mafia

Quiet Owl I believe has disclosed they are not new. I believe they're an alt? Would need to find the post where they specify such.

Does that change your stance?

[Ranger]

Then unless Ranger's theory is correct and you're SKs with imaginality then there was a redirector. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

How's this for a theory: the redirector is

because

they're a SK.

A SK with passive action redirection.

[Ranger]

why is ranger saying imaginality cannot be town by role?

I don't believe the claim, quite simply.

I've seen the fulllcaim; that makes me believe it even less.

Those look to me more like the (mini-)factional abilities of a serial killer duo. Not those abilities exactly perhaps, but something akin to those.

[Ranger]

the day i joined mafiascum and the day i started playing forum-based mafia are one and the same

My mistake, then.

i'm pretty sure up until replacing out she wanted me dead?

Oh she

specified

wanting you dead.

She never followed through.

[Ranger]

anyone wants to look at highprincess' ISO and tell me it isn't like, super duper scummy? all it did the entire game was scum busywork. IMO.

Well, 144 was strong entrance. I liked its progression in interactions with Frogsterking, especially the engagement continuing. 295 was +town. 311 I disagree with the Gamma read but the process was good. 365/394 to Titus are +town. The question about Gamma was +town. Returning to Frogsterking focus felt town. None of these are strong, but put it north of null, with later content solidifying. I realize pushing flipped town can be seen as suspect but I believe Princess was town doing so.

The townread was strengthened mostly by 473. I vibed hard with it. 517 was great. I felt 558 was both well-timed and well-thought-out. 643/722 was correct and highly town.

Its thoughts demonstrate a continuous thought process I like. It vibes as town.

[Ranger]

Read their ISO - can you tell who they think is scum? It's hard to tell, because they're not pushing or making waves, but instead are just flying under the radar.

I feel this is overly harsh. Nearly every post, kitten around has made relevant posts about topical reads. 345, 627, 834, 998, 1002, 1074, 1296, 1688, 1689, 1694, have reads.

617, 618, 624, 625, 627, 833, 1002, 1017, 1023, 1034, 1057, 1058, 1064, 1097, 1556, have relevant commentary.

That's 23 / 39 of her posts. She feels like she's contributed plenty.

[Ranger]

I don't like any of the wagons fwiw.

Well,

4 players voting for McMenno (furtiveglance, imaginality, Titus, HighPrincessErinys)
3 players voting for kitten around (Cat Scratch Fever, MathBlade, Prince of Paterson)

I certainly don't like the top two.

[Ranger]

How are you linking posts so quickly?

Experience. :P

Spoiler: Actually, it's because I'm a fast typist...

But actually actually, it's the magic of the

Code: Select all

[post](numbers)[/post]

tag.

[Ranger]

kitten around more active in this game as town: viewtopic.php?t=90036&f=51&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

So I read that iso and I don't think it's actually different from here. That was an entire game, where kitten around replaced in during a time there was also plenty of content. Here kitten around has been playing from the beginning and the game isn't remotely close to over. She made 40 posts on that game's D2 as a replacement who had 56 pages' worth of content to read. That's comparable to her rate here imo.

[Ranger]

I'm dead certain titus isn't scum in this game

Groupscum sure.

I still believe she's malevolent 3p.

[Ranger]

In the meanwhile, I want Ranger's yoga instructor. Arguing an unalive bomber is a serial killer is so stretching Ranger might as well be Mrs. Fantastic.

I am not arguing that's a real power a serial killer has.

I'm arguing that a similar power is something a serial killer would have at their disposal, and the self-bomber would be a town fakeclaim version of it.

[Ranger]

Wanna protest wagon with me?

That's my Gamma/Quiet Owl votes.

[Ranger]

Back to here then.
VOTE: Quiet Owl

[Ranger]

To the players not voting McMenno (nearly everyone now), is it because of the really vague soft of a Miller-like role? If not, then why?

What reason is there to vote him other than to vote a less-active slot? McMenno is never an active slot and by play has reason to be town. He was on the Frogsterking wagon but he is among the least-suspect voters there.

[Ranger]

I'm recovering from some trauma IRL.

Stay safe. <3

[Ranger]

I REFUSE TO FLIP NOT_MAFIA

Yes because he's convenient cover for distracting people from you. :P

[Ranger]

6 players voting for Quiet Owl (Titus, MathBlade, UltimateGamer, Ranger, imaginality, Elements)
bear in mind that while it takes 11 votes to eliminate someone, i am

passively hated by the town.

this means that today i am eliminated at 10 votes, one vote less than a normal townie.

So with both Not_Mafia and Enchant in this game, that places you as currently at L-2.

So...why aren't you claiming?

[Ranger]

Quiet Owl not wanting to claim feels like it's coming from town.

I've the opposite impression.

Scum not wanting to be locked into a claim have plenty incentive to not claim.

[Ranger]

I'll compromise to Not_Mafia to save kitten around, but I'd prefer we actually make a meaningful elimination and not let the likes of {Quiet Owl, Gamma Emerald} get away free just because the most suspect slots in the game are united in voting kitten around and have a few town players who think kitten around is scum

with

the suspect slots in spite of the suspect slots voting kitten around.

The kitten around wagon is garbage and filled with logical inconsistencies. Its momentum is unnatural, and I guarantee it'll be just another Frogsterking.

[Ranger]

I’m assuming it’s either because I defended QA or because I misunderstood Titus’ claim but I know at least one person posited me as buddies with them and Titus is voting me for apparently being a UG buddy now? lol. I’m extremely fascinated how people are even coming up with these wild takes.

As a general rule, a player who fits as scum with everyone is scum with no one.

People keep saying you're scum with everyone, when...

[Ranger]

In terms of scum numbers, people are saying multiball.

Pray tell, why are people saying it's multiball?

Could it be because Quiet Owl suggested it in his very first post?

Because there's no evidence the game's multiball and in fact direct evidence it

isn't

multiball. A flipped psychiatrist implies the presence of a serial killer; if it were multiball, we'd be

missing a kill

.

[Ranger]

there's no evidence the game's multiball and in fact direct evidence it

isn't

multiball. A flipped psychiatrist implies the presence of a serial killer; if it were multiball, we'd be

missing a kill

.

To explain, Psychiatrist = Serial Killer.
Serial Killers have kills.
We had two kills on town players N1.
Serial Killer who saw a Psychiatrist flip D1 would know they can't townside so would aim for town.
Two kills = groupscum + SK.

If the game were multiball, it should've been

three

kills (group A + group B + SK).

Two kills is direct evidence of singleball, so the multiball theory is explicitly proscum and likely +scum.

[Ranger]

....................... that's why they're probably town for not wanting to claim....

Alternatively, they don't want to be locked into a fakeclaim and are relying on people like you to bail them out off the idea of not claiming = town.

You're an enabler of scum getting away with things they shouldn't be allowed to get away with.

[Ranger]

I mean, I do not necessarily find any one post of McMenno inherently scummy, however I don't think it's fair to say they're as blank as N_M. N_M is blank and until he says something that's not a meme I refuse to believe he's not blank. McMenno did say game-related things that are clearly not-memey. In particular, they have in multiple occasions remarked that both the QO and the Ythan wagons were bad. I'm actually interested in the fact they seemed quite convinced of the badness of the Ythan wagon, I'd would very much like they would explain their read on the slot. Looking over to Ythan's postings I struggle to see where this conviction may come from
VOTE: McMenno

This is a bad wagon because people are still not giving any reason for McMenno's posts to actually be

scum

.

McMenno's posts have all seemed town.

[Ranger]

I am 100% functionally a mason. Neighbor with mod confirmation that my neighbor is town. Yes. That's a mason. Imaginality has the same thing.

I believe this is certainly closer to true, but it's still not the truth.

@Ranger, do you have some alternative explanation?
I may have reasons why I would not want to completely discount the possibility that Titus may be honest here, while at the same time her not

actually

being BestFriend as she claims. If you have a scenario in mind, I'm willing to hear it

I don't feel like rehashing my iso right now; skim my iso and you'll catch plenty more.

[Ranger]

are you suggesting a multiball theory is more likely to come from scum?

Yes. It gives a convenient distraction from natural scumhunting. Talking about multiball warps the discussion away from hunting for a coherent team and into hunting players who are town via scumhunting but appear like they could be scum if the game were multiball.

It prevents players from being townread who otherwise would be townread, because multiball standards for town are different than singleball standards for town.

Advocating for multiball acts as a distraction, casting attention away from a team of ~5-6 (for this game size) and away from clearing someone who can't be scum with others.

[Ranger]

oh you don't count 3ps as separate factions therefore you consider a game with a mafia and a sk to be singleball?

Yes. SKs act as

pseudo

-multiball, but are not actually multiball. Serial Killers

have no team

, and to be multiball, you

need a team

.

That is unless you

agree

with my "Titus and imaginality are a serial killer duo" theory. In

that

case I'd consider the game to be multiball...but it'd mean we shouldn't be letting them off the hook, now, should we? ;)

[Ranger]

Refusing to claim is more likely to get you limmed than not on MS. It's anti-survivalist.

No?

Refusing to claim is disproportionately likely to save you. People don't want to eliminate unclaimed players, and read refusal to claim as town.

MafiaScum has an

aversion

to wagoning those who refuse to claim.

[Ranger]

Silent vote after ~2 days gone

That is not scum; I did the same thing.

Openwolf/lolcatting

You're literally calling a townpost demonstrating McMenno's townier mindset the opposite.

I don't know what this is

It certainly isn't scum.

Ranger, how does this seem town?

Nothing you have shown is indicative of scum and is quite the opposite.
Your "scumcase" is genuinely a

towncase

for McMenno.

[Ranger]

Ranger hard defending mcmenno makes absolutely zero sense to me unless he has information or is powerwolfing

Have you considered McMenno is a townread of mine off of their content and I think the people pushing McMenno are largely suspect?
And I feel there's no good case on McMenno?

[Ranger]

{KA, Elements, me}
So you are implying, at least in the PoV that McMenno is town, that there is at least a scum in there right?

I do.

I can see one, or both, of {Elements, biancospino} as scum.

While you've done nothing to

strengthen

my scumread on Gamma, you've also done nothing to

weaken

it, either.

[Ranger]

VOTE: McMenno

There's another scum vote and another reason I dislike the McMenno wagon.

I feel Gimli is town.
I feel kitten around is town.

The majority of the wagon's voters are still suspect.

[Ranger]

kitten around is very likely flipping scum because there's little chance her defense of quiet owl on d1 to frogster came from town.

This only works with Quiet Owl being scum--flip Quiet Owl first.

I believe kitten around is town. Quite strongly.

[Ranger]

VOTE: kitten around

And you wonder why I think imaginality and Titus are scum here.

[Ranger]

kitten around is very likely flipping scum because there's little chance her defense of quiet owl on d1 to frogster came from town.

This only works with Quiet Owl being scum--flip Quiet Owl first.
I believe kitten around is town. Quite strongly.

I'm starting to think you're scum tbh

You have the right to be wrong.

[Ranger]

That’s my secret scumread. Kill McMenno after I flip, kthanx

kitten around isn't claiming, that's a sign of a town player, right?

@Cat Scratch Favor

[Ranger]

That’s my secret scumread. Kill McMenno after I flip, kthanx

kitten around isn't claiming, that's a sign of a town player, right?

@Cat Scratch Favor

If it wasn't clear, Cat Scratch Favor is voting kitten around.

Cat Scratch Favor has defended Quiet Owl's refusal to claim as being indicative of a slot being town.

kitten around is not claiming.

Ergo, if Cat Scratch Favor actually believed their philosophy were true, they'd unvote kitten around here.

(To be clear, that philosophy is backwards.)

[Ranger]

And, no; "neighbor" is not a claim.

I have more to my role than being just a neighbor.

kitten around hasn't claimed their role.

[Ranger]

Did more thinking and Ranger is always scum or scum siding town here.

It's the latter.

I'm a bit exhausted tonight, but given a lack of deadline, I would like to have a chance to prove it without needing to claim.

I have no reads right now and am doing a full hard reset. Do you mind waiting a (rl) day or two for me to catch up and give new thoughts from scratch? My alignment should show through that without a need to claim.

[Ranger]

Ranger, did anything happen to you this night?

I got nothing, sorry.

[Ranger]

I assure you I'm not ascetic. I would've claimed that D1.

[Ranger]

As a heads-up, I'm not starting my reread now. That'll come circa 12 hours from now.

I wanted to address a couple things first.

I assure you I'm not ascetic. I would've claimed that D1.

...Unless you're an Ascetic SK as has been theorized.

Make up your mind.

I can't both be a kitten around scumbuddy and an ascetic serial killer, now, can I?

Ascetic is a role there's zero reason to not claim on D1. It's just as much a guilty for a player to receive No Result as it is for the investigation to go through. Claiming ascetic after a No Result is akin to claiming miller after a cop has already investigated you; not claiming ascetic at all is asking for roles that would otherwise treat you as town to treat you as suspect when their action fails.

I assure you; I am not ascetic or any role immune to actions.

While I suspect Ranger, roleblock on a claimed loyal vendor makes sense.

(I did not claim loyal.)

Do you not find it suspect Titus would say this?

[Ranger]

To continue the reminder, not rereading now. I'll be rereading circa 12 hours from now (this is not an exact time; it's an approximation).
I've about five to ten free minutes now (not enough to read the 96 pages now), I'll have the remainder of my day 12 hours from now (should be enough time to read 96 pages).

I wanted to say this though;
A great deal of the suspicion on me is due to behavior seen as uncharacteristic from me near the end of the day.

Lycanfire's analysis was that my uncharacteristic hard defense of kitten around and lack of change in reads was owed to being a scumbuddy.
It was actually something else. There's no delicate way to say it, but simply put, it was someone not-Ranger leaking through with

her

style and

her

tendencies having taken control. SHE doesn't change her reads. SHE exaggerates the strength of her reads. SHE was there, and I am quite miffed about it because I specifically set out to play

without

her being there specifically because I knew she'd cause damage like that.

If you have speakeasy/GTKAS access, you may be able to understand. If not, you must simply take the word of those who understand. Regardless of their alignments, both Titus and MathBlade (among others) should be able to vouch for HER being like that. So I must apologize. She shouldn't be playing; it

should

be just me.

The reasons I defended kitten around were simple:
I thought kitten around's posts in the neighborhood were indicative of kitten around being town;
I thought kitten around's defense of Gamma Emerald in the neighborhood was town;
I thought their inthread game posts were improving and indicated a town mindset was showing (that they were getting a slow start but amping up to established levels of town);
I thought the reasons for voting kitten around weren't great;
I felt the wagon on kitten around to be suspect (I still hold this belief btw as I'm positive scum bussed);
I had other wagons I preferred, and per HER influence, I was willing to lie about the strength of my read to push the wagons I preferred.

My townread there was not actually that strong; the weak townread was the correct read. I exaggerated because SHE exaggerates reads all the time (to the frustration of players), and I'm ticked off I didn't realize she was there until after the day had ended.

That's why I'm hoping to read the 96 pages later today, this time sticking true to

myself

and being open/honest with my reads because how yesterday went is a reminder of why I

shouldn't

exaggerate reads and/or fail to reassess reads. I wanted to play honestly and fluidly, not rigidly and with false conviction.

I intend to correct that error when I have time, circa 12 hours from now.

[Ranger]

Last post for now (as a reminder, 12 hours from now will be the reread);

12 players voting for Frogsterking (McMenno, Ythan, KittyTacky, imaginality, Titus, furtiveglance, Lycanfire, Elements, Enchant, Quiet Owl, Not_Mafia,

Gamma Emerald

)

11 players voting for kitten around (

Cat Scratch Fever

, Prince of Paterson, McMenno, Lycanfire, Titus, HighPrincessErinys, imaginality, Elements, Enchant, Gimli, Not_Mafia)

You can perhaps understand my doubts in the wagon by looking at the overlap in composition.

Keep in mind HighPrincessErinys, while not

listed

as voting Frogsterking, was fully

pushing

and would've hammered had Gamma not.

The common names are {McMenno, Lycanfire, Elements, Enchant, Not_Mafia, Titus, imaginality, HighPrincessErinys}.

Eight names involved on the D1 mislim were involved in the D2 kitten around wagon.

If you think I had no reason to believe that overlap is suspect, you are lying to yourself and letting biases dictate thoughts.

Don't pretend kitten around flipping scum meant there was no reason to doubt the wagon.

I'm quite convinced scum bussed. If they hadn't, they could've capitalized on the numerous opportunities to wagon elsewhere. kitten around was far from a universal scumread. That the wagon went through is itself suspect. Was anyone defending kitten around outside of me?

There's not enough players defending kitten around for kitten around to have been scum with scumbuddies defending her.

Scum being on the wagon, which they assuredly were, is reason to be suspect of the wagon, even when it later turns out it was scum bussing.
My defense of kitten around was wrong, but my reason for it (the wagon was suspect) remains valid, because there's no way that wagon goes through without scum involved. I realize that my knowing I'm town is part of the bias there, but even without knowing my alignment, can

you

build a coherent scumteam free of bussing?

If you cannot, then perhaps consider

why

.

[Ranger]

well UG as conftown is good I suppose

Indeed.

do you think the SK is strongman? we already have a flipped (heavily limited) vig, I don't think there's a second, especially not one that kills each night

I agree all flipped kills have come from nontown.

I disagree our N2 vig would be the only possible source of extras.

Though it doesn't matter now, I don't see how anything in that imaginality post was compelling. If it weren't for the mason claim I would be voting imaginality until he was eliminated, the same as kitten around. With the mason claim, I'm still tempted. Disregarding the claim, he's been the scummiest poster of the game to me by a good margin.

I agree.

Starting review with all new info now.

[Ranger]

re-reading because i don't remember if Ranger was driving the elements wagon or not. had them confused with imaginality

I most certainly did not; I had Elements as town.

[Ranger]

Didn't really bother to read Ranger's replies much

Perhaps you should before making an accusation that is deeply disrespectful and displays proof of having not read.

I disliked how they retconned their distaste for KA wagon by saying it was because of the frogster commons

There was no retconning. What would you call 1931? I literally called kitten around "another Frogsterking". My distaste for the kitten around wagon was well-documented.

claiming some sort of fatalistic attitude

You must have a different definition of fatalistic from me. Mine involves a belief something is inevitable, per the definition on Google. I certainly said nothing of the sort. I was influenced in a way I am

very unhappy

about. I have resolved to prevent this influence from happening again. Near as I can tell, that's the

opposite

of fatalism.

I've wanted to power lynch her before on that account and gotten burned by them being town, so I've been trying to collaborate with Ranger instead this game.

Then consider; read my posts before the influence kicked in. Does the

before

still look scum? Or is it just

during

?

[Ranger]

Ranger jumped from townreading Elements for the entirety of the game up until 1230 to scumreading them in 2231. could you explain your thought process there?

That was a typo; I meant {Enchant, bian} there. This is not a retcon as the proof lies in me being explaining the hammer of Frogsterking being suspect. The slots involved were {Enchant, Gamma Emerald} (not Elements/Gamma), but I mistakenly typed Elements instead of Enchant. (If you think that is a silly mistake to make, consider I have dyslexia and Enchant/Elements have a lot of overlap.)

Elements never stopped being north of null for me.
Enchant consistently has been at or below null.

[Ranger]

The problem with the Ranger gimmick is that she isn't doing it anymore. Can only keep up the act so long if you're scum.

You speak before I have delivered.

Did you think I was doing nothing while writing these responses?

I'm currently rereading the game.

I can't finish all 100 pages tonight but I should get at least 30-40. My plan is to post them in 10-page increments and I'm on the tenth page now.

[Ranger]

I don't think trying to excuse past behaviour is ever going to happen. We have a flip here Ranger. Someone here has to smell.

My past behavior has notable errors but is also not as unfavorable as you are implying.

I was one of the strongest defenders of Frogsterking (the only other being Cat Scratch Favor who died last night unfortunately), I had accurate townreads on Morning Tweet and Save the Dragons, I had an accurate read on Cat Scratch Favor who I correctly identified as one of the towniest slots in the game, I had Elements as town.

I've two noted wrong reads, on kitten around and bianco, but my play is far from the egregious narrative you seem to think.

It's genuinely impossible for kitten around to have been eliminated without scum having bussed her.
There were viable wagons outside of kitten around, including Quiet Owl (who got to L-2 I seem to recall).
Being suspect of a wagon that is guaranteed to have contained scum is far from the scumtell you seem to think it was. That, aside from how there's a very real chance I was pushing a

different

scum wagon. If Quiet Owl for instance flipped scum, would you agree it's unlikely I was scum who decided to defend one scum and push a different scum?

I believe the wagon on kitten around is at least partially suspect. It likely isn't 4-5, but it's likely higher than 0-1. I'd estimate 1-3.

[Ranger]

Some notes going in:
UltimateGamer has been conftown'd by a desperado.
{Titus, imaginality} may not be confirmed not scum, but they're incredibly unlikely groupscum, so I'm assuming they're probably town.
Lycanfire I am assuming is town for the analysis done yesterday, but not conftown.
All other reads are developed as we progress.

Expectations: commentary won't get good until we get to a stage where there's significant wagons.
Before significant wagons formed, game was in rvs; a lot of rvs commentary likely isn't interesting.

New P1:
{UltimateGamer}
--
{Titus, imaginality}
--
{Lycanfire}
{McMenno}
{MathBlade}
{KittyTacky, HighPrincessErinys, Gimli, furtiveglance, Prince of Paterson, Quiet Owl}
{Not_Mafia}
{Enchant}

New P2:
{UltimateGamer}
--
{Titus, imaginality}
--
{Lycanfire}
{McMenno}
{Enchant, MathBlade}
{KittyTacky, Gimli, furtiveglance, Prince of Paterson, Quiet Owl}
{Not_Mafia, HighPrincessErinys}
{furtiveglance}

New P3/4:
{UltimateGamer}
--
{Titus, imaginality}
--
{Lycanfire}
{McMenno, MathBlade}
{Enchant}
{KittyTacky, Gimli, Prince of Paterson, Quiet Owl}
{Not_Mafia, HighPrincessErinys}
{furtiveglance}

New P5:
{UltimateGamer}
--
{Titus, imaginality}
--
{Lycanfire}
{McMenno, MathBlade}
{KittyTacky, Gimli, Prince of Paterson, Quiet Owl}
{Enchant}
{Not_Mafia, HighPrincessErinys}
{furtiveglance}

New P6/7:
{UltimateGamer}
--
{Titus, imaginality}
--
{Lycanfire}
{McMenno, MathBlade}
{Gimli, Prince of Paterson, Quiet Owl}
{Enchant, KittyTacky}
{Not_Mafia, HighPrincessErinys}
{furtiveglance}

New P8:
{UltimateGamer}
--
{Titus, imaginality}
--
{Lycanfire}
{McMenno, MathBlade}
{Gimli, Prince of Paterson, Quiet Owl}
{Enchant, KittyTacky}
{Not_Mafia}
{HighPrincessErinys}
{furtiveglance}

New P9:
{UltimateGamer}
--
{Titus, imaginality}
--
{Lycanfire}
{McMenno, MathBlade}
{Gimli, Prince of Paterson,}
{Enchant, KittyTacky}
{Not_Mafia}
{HighPrincessErinys, furtiveglance}
{Quiet Owl}

New P10:
{UltimateGamer}
--
{Titus, imaginality}
--
{Lycanfire}
{McMenno, MathBlade}
{Gimli, Prince of Paterson,}
{Enchant, KittyTacky}
{Not_Mafia}
{HighPrincessErinys}
{furtiveglance}
{Quiet Owl}




Enchant's 27 felt more in line with what I'd expect from a town-Enchant compared to P1 posting. However, 121/123 don't vibe with me.

I still feel tris's 30 is indicative of the slot as town; it felt natural. 35 also felt town. 58 was a good vote imo. 60 was something I vibed with. I liked 84 as well. 150 was good imo. 164 is a good point.

I still townread McMenno's claim and entrance. McMenno's 143 is mostly null but

slightly

leans town by gut. 161 is also loosely town imo.

furtiveglance's 47 felt out of place. He was overdefensive to tris's push, in a way I feel is +scum.

82 looks like scum.

Not currently vibing with KittyTacky's entrance, although I admit I need a refresher on his meta. I seem to recall believing he was town by it, so brushing up may help that read. 135 compared to 137/138 feels out of place. The confidence on tris contrasts the hedging on Gamma/Frogster.

144 is a lot more null than I remember it being, in a bad way. HighPrincessErinys's lack of engagement in 180 outside Frogsterking is alarming given it later demonstrated an ability to engage more individuals. posts like this demonstrate it can engage with multiple players on multiple posts at once; why was HighPrincessErinys only engaging Frogsterking the slot voting it? 233 is also alarmingly null, and by gut the Frogsterking engagement feels scum in hindsight. 228 feels suspiciously defensive in hindsight. I don't like the tone of 236. I feel 237 weakly indicates not scum theater with Quiet Owl (it's still possible, but it doesn't look

deliberately designed

as theater), but I feel there's scum within those two for sure. 242 seems alarmingly hedgy in hindsight, being more defensive than offensive.
However, 249 feels like a genuine reach-out to Frogsterking. Genuine reachout doesn't guarantee town, but it's a potential indicator at minimum.

215 I retain is TMI.

- this is a multiball setup, and they're both scum

By

my

definition of multiball, we have proof the game isn't multiball (barring Titus/imaginality being a SK duo). The kills indicate singleball + SK. However, Quiet Owl has a different definition of multiball:

oh right we've had a miscommunication with our definitions then. i thought of multiball as any game where there's more than two end conditions.

By

Quiet Owl's

definition of multiball, by which QO made 215, this game

would

be multiball: groupscum+SK. Quiet Owl's "predicting" of the game being multiball is suspect.
Even aside from the multiball reference (which we know,

per Quiet Owl's definition

, to be true now), the reads in that post are {CSF, Frogsterking} has scum. We know both to be town. The reads are not only wrong but look out of place. 230 wasn't backed by a vote, in spite of being a point I feel would warrant voting HighPrincessErinys. Why didn't Quiet Owl vote it there?

I retain my belief {Titus, imaginality} aren't town, given imaginality's entrance.

[Ranger]

{Titus, imaginality} may not be confirmed not scum, but they're incredibly unlikely groupscum, so I'm assuming they're probably town.

Sorry, forgot the asterisk here.
Assuming they're probably town for the sake of

hunting scumbuddies

.

The chance {Titus, imaginality} are groupscum is quite low. Titus's posts today have made me consider it potentially not impossible (call it paranoia), but

overall

the

probabilities

are either "town" or "third party"; regardless of which, that makes them treated as town

when looking for scumbuddies

.

[Ranger]

Yeah sorry not good enough. Just do as you've done before and just sort people on the recent pages. Suggesting you have to throw out the entirety of day 2 and start again stinks.

Day two is included in starting again?

I'm not going to do the first 30 pages and then stop.

I'm going to do 1-100.

Which includes pages 48-96.

Jumping straight into D2 might be what

you

want, but it won't help

me

because I need the context of the first day.

Especially

because I am suspect of the overlap between the Frogsterking wagon (D1) and the kitten around wagon. Reading D1 is

necessary

to read D2 for me.

As I'm the one doing the catchup, it's me who gets to decide what I need to do for it to be productive.

But really, you should have no reason to complain.

If your mind is truly open, you should be willing to reevaluate slots from content revisited during areas you

didn't

focus on. D2 isn't some holy grail that in of itself will singlehandedly solve the game.

I got a later start than I wanted

tonight

.
I won't be able to finish

tonight

.
But when I asked to be given a chance for a hard reset, I specifically asked for 1-2 days because I knew it might take two days. I can finish

tomorrow

.

30-40 pages tonight, 60-70 pages tomorrow. Rereading the entire game in two days with all the current information isn't an unreasonable request. I'm staying current and replying to current content while still catching up.

[Ranger]

I don't have a concern about your reads as much as I have a concern HOW you shared them. Your continual popping in to shade the entire wagon wasn't pro-town. It was agenda based.

And when did I start doing that?

Certainly not for the majority of the game.

Perhaps I started doing that when, oh...you know? Influenced?

I

did

have an agenda. I didn't want another townread of mine to die; I wanted to eliminate a scumread. These behaviors are uncharacteristic of me, but not scum-indicative of a certain playstyle that

has

an agenda when town. A style that gets stubborn about beliefs and doesn't like it when the game doesn't go her way and is deliberately manipulative to try and make it so she gets her way. It was there in 1327, 1335, 1369, so the influence had creeped in, but it wasn't present in

full

until 1374, after which the influence was in almost every post. I can see that style in 1398, 1402, 1404, 1422, 1762, 1765, 1774, 1777, 1780, 1783, 1785, 1786, 1787, 1865, 1868, 1869, etc. The influence grew without me realizing it.

I'm cognizant of the influence now and will be more conscious in averting it. You can't deny there's a notable difference in certain posts compared to others and most of them are in the latter half of D2 when the influence came in.

[Ranger]

My only complaint is that I feel like you're trying to start a pity party and we're all invited here.

I've a vested interest in not claiming as my role loses a great deal of utility when claimed. If forced to, you'd unvote, but I'd rather avoid it. The easiest way for me to avoid being forced to claim is to demonstrate why I wasn't scum for the wrong read and demonstrating towniness through insight.

[Ranger]

So far you've really given us nothing.

It is not nothing. It is perhaps less valuable than content from other areas of the game. Being less valuable does not mean it holds none.

I've given a reasonable timeframe for completing the analysis. This is a game with no deadline. I am stating intent to read

one hundred pages

over the course of

two days

.

Complaining I started on the "least valuable" part is unreasonably harsh imo.

You need to know when to hold 'em n shit like that Ranger.

You literally just told me I wasn't displaying my signature transparency.

Had I skipped the rvs commentary, that'd have been skipping my signature transparency.

Make up your mind.

[Ranger]

The problem with the Ranger gimmick is that she isn't doing it anymore. Can only keep up the act so long if you're scum.

(The Ranger gimmick is transparent reads constantly updated. I am giving transparent reads constantly updated.)

[Ranger]

Reminder of notes;
UltimateGamer has been conftown'd by a desperado.
{Titus, imaginality} may not be confirmed not scum, but they're incredibly unlikely groupscum, so I'm assuming they're probably town for the sake of scumbuddies hunting.
Lycanfire I am assuming is town for the analysis done yesterday, but not conftown.
All other reads are developed as we progress.


New P11:
{UltimateGamer}
--
{Titus, imaginality}
--
{Lycanfire}
{McMenno, MathBlade}
{Gimli, Prince of Paterson}
{Enchant}
{Not_Mafia, KittyTacky}
{HighPrincessErinys}
{furtiveglance}
{Quiet Owl}

New P12:
{UltimateGamer}
--
{Titus, imaginality}
--
{Lycanfire}
{McMenno, MathBlade}
{Gimli, Prince of Paterson}
{Enchant, Not_Mafia, KittyTacky}
{HighPrincessErinys}
{furtiveglance}
{Quiet Owl}

New P13:
{UltimateGamer}
--
{Titus, imaginality}
--
{Lycanfire}
{MathBlade}
{McMenno}
{Gimli, Prince of Paterson}
{Enchant, Not_Mafia}
{KittyTacky}
{HighPrincessErinys}
{furtiveglance}
{Quiet Owl}

New P14/15/16:
{UltimateGamer}
--
{Titus, imaginality}
--
{Lycanfire}
{MathBlade}
{McMenno}
{Gimli, Prince of Paterson}
{Enchant, Not_Mafia}
{KittyTacky}
{HighPrincessErinys}
{furtiveglance, Quiet Owl}

New P17:
{UltimateGamer}
--
{Titus, imaginality}
--
{Lycanfire}
{MathBlade}
{McMenno}
{Gimli, Prince of Paterson}
{Enchant, Not_Mafia}
{KittyTacky, HighPrincessErinys}
{furtiveglance, Quiet Owl}

KittyTacky's 264, I struggle seeing the town motivation behind it. 268 I'm more conflicted on. The first half is plausibly town, the second half looks scum. 309/310, though empathetic, I feel demonstrate knowledge Gamma was town, since it feels like the "if Gamma is scum" was added as an afterthought to what spewed knowledge Gamma was town. (I feel terrible for essentially saying basic human empathy is +scum, but it's the specific wording/post order which gives me those vibes, not the message itself.) I'm disliking 414, 415, and the explanation of the townread on me in 416 feels forced. 417 feels deliberately weak as a defense of Gamma.

imaginality's 292 radiates 3p vibes. While he's right in 426 scum likely voted him, I still feel his approach and mindset is nontown indicative.
I maintain {Titus, imaginality} as 3p from 364.

I'm not liking 294/295. Gamma Emerald had already done the callout; the only addition was my name, which was out of place. 304 is true, but a comment I feel is +scum to make. 311 is +scum; a lack of scum candidates is more commonly from scum. The callout of Ranger/Quiet Owl is out of place, and the commentary on StD/Gamma doesn't look town. 358 is both opportunistic and cautious, encouraging pressure on a non-scum player while avoiding accountability for being on the wagon. 365 also feels out of place given HighPrincessErinys's focus on Frogsterking. 402 I

see

the town motivation for, but gutwise currently feels +scum. The language choice in 473 feels suspect: "feels weird" rather than 'scum'. 484 describing the post as 'interesting' is also a suspect word choice.

Disliking Enchant's focus on Gamma in 298. 300 is suspect. 307 feels scum.

tris's 302/303 look much better to me now than previously. 306 is a valid criticism of HighPrincessErinys. I also feel 418 was a good post.

328 is terrible; it looks like scum voting a player they know isn't scum that has a good chance of going through owing to them being suspect. 332 was buddying StD. I get bad vibes from 338. I also disliked 344. 422 is lackluster.

I quite like McMenno's 476/478.

[Ranger]

Forgot to write the /18/19/20 there; to be clear, that was through page 20.

[Ranger]

Reminder of notes;
UltimateGamer has been conftown'd by a desperado.
{Titus, imaginality} may not be confirmed not scum, but they're incredibly unlikely groupscum, so I'm assuming they're probably town for the sake of scumbuddies hunting.
Lycanfire I am assuming is town for the analysis done yesterday, but not conftown.
All other reads are developed as we progress.

New P21:
{UltimateGamer}
--
{Titus, imaginality}
--
{Lycanfire}
{MathBlade}
{McMenno}
{Gimli, Prince of Paterson}
{Enchant, Not_Mafia}
{KittyTacky, HighPrincessErinys}
{furtiveglance, Quiet Owl}

New P22/23:
{UltimateGamer}
--
{Titus, imaginality}
--
{Lycanfire}
{MathBlade}
{McMenno}
{Gimli, Prince of Paterson}
{Enchant, Not_Mafia}
{KittyTacky, HighPrincessErinys}
{furtiveglance}
{Quiet Owl}

New P24/25/26/27/28/29/30:
{UltimateGamer}
--
{Titus, imaginality}
--
{Lycanfire}
{MathBlade}
{McMenno}
{Gimli, Prince of Paterson}
{Enchant, Not_Mafia}
{KittyTacky}
{HighPrincessErinys, furtiveglance}
{Quiet Owl}

I don't know why but 511 gives bad vibes currently. 517 feels +scum as scum tend to highlight claims more often unprompted. 620 feels a suspect interaction with kitten around that looks like scum theater.
625 from kitten around continues to look like that exact same scum theater.

I like McMenno's honesty in 518. Tone-wise, 520 is +town. 533/536 felt town.

I still hate 523 and feel imaginality is in fact 3p, not town. 715 continues the 3p vibes.

531 feels deliberately weak from Quiet Owl. 545 specifically called Lycanfire's play similar to Arsonist--third party. This looks like Quiet Owl was hunting 3p, rather than hunting scum, with the Lycanfire vote. 567 refers back to the multiball theory in a way I believe is incredibly scum-indicative. The defense of 570 feels forced and out of place (I feel it was deliberately to be contrarian to other opinions). 596 highlights the (likely)town on the imaginality wagon, specifying it's suspect but not focusing on the votes most likely to be scum (furtive/Princess). 602 feels like cheeky-scum behavior because Quiet Owl IS defending imaginality there, as QO says scum would benefit from doing.
Further supporting my suspicions: kitten around's 618 calls Quiet Owl suspect, but doesn't actually VOTE QO. 627 looks like scum theater.

I dislike 537, it feels subdued from KittyTacky. 542 doesn't seem to serve a purpose, and 543 doesn't jive as a justification. 544 is oddly placed and I don't see why he thought that. 609 offers no justification for a townread on me, in a way I feel suspect.

Not Mafia is capable of producing content when town. The lack thereof in 548 is suspect.

tris's 629 is a good post about Quiet Owl, and 630 was a good vote imo. The callout in 632/633 was original enough and feels genuine.

I feel 648 is town from McMenno because their thoughts are original and don't line up with those of the flipped scum/my suspects for scum.

695 from Enchant is lackluster.

Spicy take:

Quiet Owl is scum with {kitten around, furtiveglance, maybe-Princess} (among others), and was

intended

to be the fall guy. The scum wanted

Quiet Owl

eliminated, NOT kitten around, and he deliberately left anti-associatives with his scumbuddies so they'd look better after he flipped. This would explain his lack of claim, and potentially offer an explanation for yesterday.
However, I admit this is just a theory. I'll need to continue investigating this to see if it has merit tomorrow.

[Ranger]

Have to call it there.
The remaining 70 pages will be tomorrow.

[Ranger]

This case on me feels like a lame turnaround after I shept the case on you and felt you not getting a vegetable was scummy.

Your current posting, including all from this day phase, isn’t involved in my reread.

I hard-reset my reads, including on you.

I don’t remember what made me townread you previously.

I am seeing content which currently looks suspect with the benefit of hindsight.

It is not a final read, as I have yet to finish my process. Even when I've read all 100 pages, there will be additional work. Referencing the neighborhood, my own posts, the posts of the deceased, and meta checking verifiable slots, yours included.

My read shall not be finalized until after all of those. It’s certainly possible my read will flip on you back to town if/when I remember why I had the read in the first place. Quite possibly, the reason was meta, with you being correct in your 2543 in that I should know. But since I

currently

don’t remember either my reason or your meta, I am going off of what I see.

My read will be refined as the process continues. Remembering your meta, and remembering why I townread you previously,

are

on my agenda. Just not yet.

There’s no harm in demonstrating my thought process and showing transparency and honesty. I will need to review the evidence surrounding you in the lens of your meta

eventually

. It is not something I feel is productive to do

immediately

.
(Speaking of which, resuming the reread for the next 70 pages won’t start now. I'll begin in circa 12 hours from now, similarly to yesterday.)

[Ranger]

Ranger has felt like quite obvious town and claimed a vig shot last night in the neighbourhood

Speaking of, to the surviving neighborhood members: do you think I should fullclaim here?

[Ranger]

With only 9 alive, and an unknown amount of scum remaining, it might be ideal to massclaim.

[Ranger]

Respectfully, I asked the members of the

hood

for their feedback.

Not two of those who aren't.

[Ranger]

let me rephrase this then: with all due respect, you're asking a potato question if you already fullclaimed in a hood that had mathblade in it when you claimed. IDC what you are anyway, suit yourself.

I'll reiterate; I wasn't asking you.

The neighborhood members know the contents of what happened there and why it would clear me. There is value in outing that information, but there is also value in

not

outing that information.

If there are three player slots all specifying I am town from the events in there, with nine total players alive, that should serve as sufficient cause to know there's good reason for me to be town.

Reason they know.

[Ranger]

Okay, so let's start with Ranger.
This is my top scumread besides N_M and I've literally only been in this game like under a day. Their reads don't track with anything I'm getting from others, these questions they're asking on entry here are.... bad. and the VCA you posted implicates them heavily.

I realize you've not read the neighborhood.

It's advisable to do so.

I believed your slot scum strongly before last night. The outcome of last night made me believe the rest of the neighborhood is town. If MathBlade wasn't the last scum there, the outcome of last night would have been different.

The VCA ignores context as well. I had Enchant as among my strongest scumreads, and Not_Mafia as a strong scumread.

While last night I was afraid Not_Mafia was a jester, whatever happened to kill three mafia has convinced me he's not; he's either town or scum, and scum is the most likely.

Quiet Owl was going to be the elimination yesterday before Not_Mafia pulled the trigger on Lycanfire. Quiet Owl got to L-2 I believe. If you think Not_Mafia is suspect, then the context behind him hammering the towniest slot in the game (Lycanfire was universally townread) and saving the scummiest slot in the game (Quiet Owl was universally scumread) should perhaps make you reconsider the thought of Quiet Owl being town.

MathBlade also started the Lycanfire wagon as a

counter

to the momentum on Quiet Owl. He has

huge

partner equity with Quiet Owl when you observe context.

I realize you lack said context, but I can provide more tomorrow. (Busy tonight.)

[Ranger]

Ranger has felt like quite obvious town and claimed a vig shot last night in the neighbourhood

Speaking of, to the surviving neighborhood members: do you think I should fullclaim here?

Yeah, scum knows your claim, share with the class.

Alright.

CLAIM:

Indecisive Combined Solo Vigilante Duet Doctor
Paraphrased,
I target a player. If nobody else targets the player, I vig them.
If anybody targets the player, I protect them.
I can't target the same player two nights in a row.

I initially used the role defensively.
On N1, I protected Cat Scratch Fever, for being likeminded to me as part of the Frogsterking trio.
On N2, I protected Lycanfire, for their end of day analysis on kitten around.

On N3, I claimed to the neighborhood and directed the role offensively towards HighPrincessErinys. (I wanted to target one of Not_Mafia or Quiet Owl, but given Not_Mafia did the hammer and Quiet Owl was the elimination candidate until Not_Mafia did that, I figured they would be targeted by PR actions.)

Since CSF didn't die N1, we have confirmation CSF was targeted N1.
Since Lycanfire didn't die N2, that means Lycanfire was targeted N2.

Since HighPrincessErinys died N3, that means HighPrincessErinys wasn't targeted N3.

The neighborhood should also know why MathBlade spewed me town there last night. (Check the last two pages and see MathBlade's interactions.)

[Ranger]

Ranger if you only claimed to the neighbourhood N3 then how could you be so sure CSF would be targeted N1? If you were wrong about that you'd've vigged them

CSF was part of the Frogsterking-CSF-Ranger trio which you know so well.

Frogsterking was eliminated.

I thought the odds quite high CSF would be targeted by scum N1 since CSF was part of the Frogsterking trio and would only be empowered overnight by Frogsterking being quicklimmed.

[Ranger]

I'd like any claims of people who visited Ranger's n1 or n2 "targets".

I've no reason to lie about targets or role; you know this.

Lying risks getting caught. My role is real, my targets are real. My alignment you can question. My role/targets I've zero incentive to lie about.

There's probably more mech than that but Mama Bear is tired.

I could've sworn Titus uses this phrase almost exclusively as scum.

We need to track these guns and kills.

Let's suppose for a moment that every gun was successfully given and hit it's target despite no one claiming guns. We have an extra kill night 1 as no guns were given. N2 has no extra kill. Scum have a compulsive disloyal doctor. If third party was aiming for scum, but hit the compulsive target, then this explains the missing n2 kill. It also could be 3p bulletproof.

Where is the idea of guns coming from? None of the flipped scum have that power.

Enchant has died. they were a mafia multitasking

gunsmith

| compulsive disloyal inventor.

Enchant was a gunsmith.

Separately, Enchant was a compulsive disloyal inventor.

Nowhere is guns being given mentioned.

So, Titus, let me ask you again;

Where are you getting the idea of guns being given?

It's certainly not from any flipped information available to the town.

[Ranger]

that actually makes ranger a likely scum partner for not_mafia, or mafia thought ranger was 3p already and needed her to achieve their wincon

I've called Not_Mafia scum for the entire game.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

I've called Enchant scum the entire game as well.

[Ranger]

@Ranger you said something about the neighbourhood thread basically proves you are town, not simply proves you non-mafia-but-could-be-third-party, is that correct?

Well, nothing there proves I'm not 3p, but as town I'm not inclined to say "proves me not-scum". If I were actually 3p I'd have likely said "proves me not mafia", but since I'm town, the thought of me being plausible 3p never occurred so an interaction proving I'm not mafia was, to me, an interaction proving I'm town.

[Ranger]

I will personally reject any and everything that happened in the neighborhood thread that could be scum theatre, in fact I'm scumreading ranger twice as hard just because she apparently had some interaction with mathblade during night.

The interaction is one which would have been in the scum PT if we shared one. It's one which served no purpose. There was no theater involved; there was no pocketing the neighborhood members involved. It was discussing of how to work together, how to coordinate, etc. Given every single night death was a member of the neighborhood, that also serves as proof of lack of scum theater.

There's only three players from the neighborhood left alive. StD and MT were members who died N1, meaning less members to do theater with. CSF and bianco were members who died N2, meaning less members to do theater with. I killed HighPrincessErinys, another member of the neighborhood, reducing the number of players who would see the theater.

If it was theater, Gimli, tell me; who was it meant to be theater

for

? The only living members are the furtiveglance slot and the KittyTacky slot.

[Ranger]

Ranger - indecisive combined solo vigilante duet doctor [neighbour] (Ranger didn't state neigbour in the role title when claiming but obviously is in the neighbourhood)

Right, forgot to include that. Neighbor is in fact at the end like that, but I was lazy.

imaginality - night 5 rolecop neigbour*

Speaking of claims though, back to this:

I'd like any claims of people who visited Ranger's n1 or n2 "targets".

When you, imaginality, are a

rolecop

, and have survived this long, why would I

fakeclaim

something which

you could catch

?

I wouldn't. Either you'd be dead (freeing me up to fakeclaim), or I'd tell the truth.

So why is Titus doubting my claim when your very survival is proof I'm not?

[Ranger]

Not including Neighbor in the precise and detailed full claim while listing every other modifier and explaining them in detail may indicate that Ranger's claim was fake. It's an odd omission, and Ranger seems like the type to value completeness.

I hope it's okay to specify I copied it from the neighborhood itself.

I didn't see the need to claim the neighbor part in the neighborhood itself, for obvious reasons.

I simply forgot to add it back in when putting it here. I thankfully remembered to change something which would've made it clear it was copypasted, but having remembered to change that detail, I forgot to include the neighbor part.

[Ranger]

Not including Neighbor in the precise and detailed full claim while listing every other modifier and explaining them in detail may indicate that Ranger's claim was fake. It's an odd omission, and Ranger seems like the type to value completeness.

I hope it's okay to specify I copied it from the neighborhood itself.

I didn't see the need to claim the neighbor part in the neighborhood itself, for obvious reasons.

I simply forgot to add it back in when putting it here. I thankfully remembered to change something which would've made it clear it was copypasted, but having remembered to change that detail, I forgot to include the neighbor part.

If you want a fresh paraphrase from start, the role is town indecisive combined solo vigilante duet doctor neighbor.
I win when no opposite factions live, or that can't be prevented.
Each night, I target a player; if nobody else visits them, I will kill them.
Each night, I target a player; if anybody else visits them, I will protect them.
I'm in a neighborhood, with the nine other players.
I can vote and post in the gamethread.

This is as close as I can get.

[Ranger]

Dropping one single modifier while copying and relaying the accurate role, when the rest of it came with links and descriptions, is a lot more unlikely than forgetting one while composing a fake role. In the former case she is transcribing the role directly from the source, and I don't see why that would result in forgetting one part of it when she was going to efforts to ensure the claim was in full.

The links were added in by me. So was the capitalization. The role was manually typed out, because manual typing makes it harder to get modkilled for the claim being too close to the original.

I didn't type up neighbor when I originally claimed in the neighborhood because it was inside the neighborhood.
I relayed the exact claim I made to the neighborhood to the gamethread, doing the bare minimum to change it just in case of a risk an exact copy-paste would be seen as quoting from a PT. The result was not including the neighborhood out here, because I didn't originally while inside the neighborhood.

[Ranger]

It's possible that she thought it wasn't important, but then again why underline each specific word in the role?

It was taken from the neighborhood and manually typed out there. I didn't include neighbor in the neighborhood because it was

in the neighborhood

.

In the neighborhood I wasn't aiming to get the closest possible paraphrase.

In the neighborhood I was aiming to convey the relevant information.

That's why I used the links. I didn't need to explain the wording of combined (because I linked it) or vig (because I linked it) or doctor (because I linked it) or neighbor (because I was in the neighborhood). I did need to explain Solo/Duo because as far as I know, xyzzy made those modifiers up for this game. (There's no wiki article for them as far as I could tell.)

[Ranger]

my distinct impression was that the moment ranger was threatened by lycanfire, math and N_M immediately jumped on lycan to stop her from becoming a wagon. makes me think that whatever she is, she's crucial to scum winning.

Funny, because I distinctly recall a different lead wagon at the time Not_Mafia executed Lycanfire.

4 players voting for Quiet Owl (HighPrincessErinys, Gimli, imaginality, furtiveglance)

I was not voting for you.
MathBlade was not voting for you.
Enchant was not voting for you.
McMenno was not voting for you.

Quiet Owl had 4 votes on him and none of them are flipped scum.

I agree with the thesis "Not_Mafia executed Lycanfire to save a scum player being wagoned."

It sure doesn't fit as being me!

The scum had enough votes to vote for a Quiet Owl elimination.
Why?

Basic math.

We know there must be at least one scum left alive.
We know Quiet Owl had four votes.
None of the three flipped scum voted Quiet Owl.
It took 8 votes to eliminate.

Do the math. 1+ scum still left alive, plus the three flipped scum, plus the four votes already on Quiet Owl.

The only way this doesn't check out?
If {Gimili, furtiveglance} contains scum.
And if {Gimli, furtiveglance} contains scum, then logically, that means

I cannot be scum

.

By basic math, Quiet Owl is condemning himself while trying to project it as condemnation of me.

[Ranger]

My opinion is that Quiet Owl's assessment of the hammer on lycanfire, being that it was in defense of Ranger, seems more likely than Ranger's assessment of the hammer on lycanfire, being that it was in defense of Quiet Owl.

Mine is based on what actually happened at the time in question.

Votes reset at the daykill.

The game is only

two pages

long from there.

So you can check for yourself.

I started my catch-up here, wanting time to finish it.
Titus asked for us to not end the day here, another request to not rush the day.

Lycanfire's

last post in the game

was 2525. He didn't get to post after that.
I did.

He didn't get a chance to respond to any of 2527, 2528, 2529, or 2530.
He didn't get a chance to engage with my catchup in 2531.
He didn't get a chance to engage with my catchup in 2533.

If I were scum, why did I make effort to reach out to Lycanfire, and have N_M kill him before he could respond?

I made efforts to reach out to Lycanfire. Those were to

Lycanfire

, not to the rest of the town. They were meant to convince

him

, not the rest of the town.

Why would I kill him before I had succeeded?

I also was making an

active effort to catch up

.
I read 30 pages in one day.
The site upgrade prevented me from catching up the next day, but I was intent to catch up on Wednesday January 25th.

If I were scum, why would I have had N_M kill Lycan fire before I could finish?

Either I don't do the reread at all (to prevent spewing scumbuddies),

or

, I finish the reread (to try and town it up).
Cutting the reread off half-way through gives me nothing. It gives the town information if I flip scum, while preventing me from having towned it up (because I didn't finish).

I have no scum motivation to kill Lycanfire

.

Now view that information in the lens of me being town.
Suddenly, a different picture emerges.

HighPrincessErinys voted Quiet Owl in 2535.
Gimli voted Quiet Owl in 2537.
imaginality voted Quiet Owl in 2539.
furtiveglance voted Quiet Owl in 2541.
Per my last readslist in 2533 (what

inspired the Quiet Owl votes in the first place

), I had Quiet Owl as my most likely scum candidate.

Four votes, in

one page

, for Quiet Owl, after I put the sus on him.

MathBlade,

on that same page

, began going after Lycanfire with 2548.
MathBlade

did not vote Quiet Owl

. Instead, he voted Lycanfire in 2549.

If Quiet Owl is town, why did MathBlade vote for Lycanfire instead of Quiet Owl?

Not_Mafia hammered at 2561, preventing me from catching up.
The hammer has an obvious incentive for scum in a town-Ranger world.

I was rereading.
I hadn't finished.
My reread of the entire game would have given information on all slots, start to finish. It represented a threat to the gamestate.
Preventing me from finishing is only +scum in a town-Ranger world.

Furthermore, hammering Lycanfire specifically

prevented Lycanfire from flipping his read on me

.
Lycanfire didn't get a chance to respond to my posts. Those would have given him a chance to change his read on me.
I didn't get a chance to finish my catchup. That would have given me the chance to spew myself town and give a fresh perspective on the game.
Even if Lycanfire didn't townread me off of the content he didn't get to respond to, if I had finished that reread then that provides him a chance to reassess and reevaluate.

Multiple times, Lycanfire stated he was open to being shown wrong.
Multiple times, Lycanfire stated he was open to being convinced.
Multiple times, Lycanfire said he was willing to wait for me to finish and to judge the information I provided.

Not_Mafia hammering Lycanfire prevented any of that from happening

.

In a town-Ranger world, Lycanfire revising his read on me risked forming a townbloc between Lycanfire and myself.
Further, in a town-Ranger world, Quiet Owl had four votes on him in one page (the

same page MathBlade voted Lycanfire

and the

page before Not_Mafia hammered

), with both myself and Lycanfire off the wagon.

In a town-Ranger world, the scum had every reason to fear letting the day continue;
In a scum-Ranger world, the scum had every reason to

want

the day to continue

.

[Ranger]

My opinion is that Quiet Owl's assessment of the hammer on lycanfire, being that it was in defense of Ranger, seems more likely than Ranger's assessment of the hammer on lycanfire, being that it was in defense of Quiet Owl.

Mine is based on what actually happened at the time in question.

Votes reset at the daykill.

The game is only

two pages

long from there.

So you can check for yourself.

I started my catch-up here, wanting time to finish it.
Titus asked for us to not end the day here, another request to not rush the day.

Lycanfire's

last post in the game

was 2525. He didn't get to post after that.
I did.

He didn't get a chance to respond to any of 2527, 2528, 2529, or 2530.
He didn't get a chance to engage with my catchup in 2531.
He didn't get a chance to engage with my catchup in 2533.

If I were scum, why did I make effort to reach out to Lycanfire, and have N_M kill him before he could respond?

I made efforts to reach out to Lycanfire. Those were to

Lycanfire

, not to the rest of the town. They were meant to convince

him

, not the rest of the town.

Why would I kill him before I had succeeded?

I also was making an

active effort to catch up

.
I read 30 pages in one day.
The site upgrade prevented me from catching up the next day, but I was intent to catch up on Wednesday January 25th.

If I were scum, why would I have had N_M kill Lycan fire before I could finish?

Either I don't do the reread at all (to prevent spewing scumbuddies),

or

, I finish the reread (to try and town it up).
Cutting the reread off half-way through gives me nothing. It gives the town information if I flip scum, while preventing me from having towned it up (because I didn't finish).

I have no scum motivation to kill Lycanfire

.

Now view that information in the lens of me being town.
Suddenly, a different picture emerges.

HighPrincessErinys voted Quiet Owl in 2535.
Gimli voted Quiet Owl in 2537.
imaginality voted Quiet Owl in 2539.
furtiveglance voted Quiet Owl in 2541.
Per my last readslist in 2533 (what

inspired the Quiet Owl votes in the first place

), I had Quiet Owl as my most likely scum candidate.

Four votes, in

one page

, for Quiet Owl, after I put the sus on him.

MathBlade,

on that same page

, began going after Lycanfire with 2548.
MathBlade

did not vote Quiet Owl

. Instead, he voted Lycanfire in 2549.

If Quiet Owl is town, why did MathBlade vote for Lycanfire instead of Quiet Owl?

Not_Mafia hammered at 2561, preventing me from catching up.
The hammer has an obvious incentive for scum in a town-Ranger world.

I was rereading.
I hadn't finished.
My reread of the entire game would have given information on all slots, start to finish. It represented a threat to the gamestate.
Preventing me from finishing is only +scum in a town-Ranger world.

Furthermore, hammering Lycanfire specifically

prevented Lycanfire from flipping his read on me

.
Lycanfire didn't get a chance to respond to my posts. Those would have given him a chance to change his read on me.
I didn't get a chance to finish my catchup. That would have given me the chance to spew myself town and give a fresh perspective on the game.
Even if Lycanfire didn't townread me off of the content he didn't get to respond to, if I had finished that reread then that provides him a chance to reassess and reevaluate.

Multiple times, Lycanfire stated he was open to being shown wrong.
Multiple times, Lycanfire stated he was open to being convinced.
Multiple times, Lycanfire said he was willing to wait for me to finish and to judge the information I provided.

Not_Mafia hammering Lycanfire prevented any of that from happening

.

In a town-Ranger world, Lycanfire revising his read on me risked forming a townbloc between Lycanfire and myself.
Further, in a town-Ranger world, Quiet Owl had four votes on him in one page (the

same page MathBlade voted Lycanfire

and the

page before Not_Mafia hammered

), with both myself and Lycanfire off the wagon.

In a town-Ranger world, the scum had every reason to fear letting the day continue;
In a scum-Ranger world, the scum had every reason to

want

the day to continue

.

This is why context > blind VCA.

Per blind VCA, you can make the argument of Not_Mafia hammering Lycanfire to save me.
But

the two votes on me came

before

the [o]

FOUR

[/i] votes on Quiet Owl

.
With

that

as the context, it becomes clear. Not_Mafia wouldn't be hammering to save me. I was in no danger; I was actively reaching out to Lycanfire and my only other voter was

the lead wagon

.
Not_Mafia had strong incentive to save

Quiet Owl

.

[Ranger]

my distinct impression was that the moment ranger was threatened by lycanfire, math and N_M immediately jumped on lycan to stop her from becoming a wagon.

i think my exact phrasing here is worth taking note of.

Your exact phrasing doesn't change your narrative being proven wrong by simply reading two pages of the game.

There were two votes on me. Lycanfire's, and yours.

There were

four

votes on

you

. None from flipped scum.

The latter came

after

the former, not before.

I was actively talking to Lycanfire. That meant Lycanfire was likely to change reads on me.

That means there's no "Ranger was threatened by Lycanfire" moment. It doesn't exist.

There

was

a "Quiet Owl was threatened by the town" moment.

[Ranger]

It's called reading flips. Maybe you should try it.

I did and nothing in those flips indicates guns.

Because of the gunsmith and handing out guns is what people usually do with inventors.

No? Guns aren't the most common invention. The most common inventions are also the most common JOAT actions: Tracker, Follower, Doctor, Jailkeeper, Gunsmith, Neapolitan. Maybe if feeling extra strong, a Cop. A Bulletproof Vest Inventor is more common than a Vigilante inventor. A Hider Inventor is more common than a Vigilante Inventor.

And like JOATs, usually, if the Inventor doesn't specify (role)-Inventor, it's because it has multiple inventions, not just one.

[Ranger]

There's next to zero way Q O is scum unless SK but that's pretty obviously Ranger.

Is it?

You were calling me scum by VCA.

I can't both be scum and the SK, can I?

(It's because I'm neither.)

[Ranger]

There's next to zero way Q O is scum unless SK but that's pretty obviously Ranger.

Is it?

You were calling me scum by VCA.

I can't both be scum and the SK, can I?

(It's because I'm neither.)

And let's run through the possible scenarios, shall we?
1: Ranger is Mafia, realclaiming role, but not targets.
Presumably, in this scenario, I am the source of the second kill every night.

Why do I not just claim the doctor half and leave the vig half out?

An indecisive Duo Doctor is a plenty-believable fakeclaim on its own; why would I need to add the Vig half and needlessly implicate myself when claiming?

It doesn't further the scum wincon for me to claim the kill. Quite the opposite, it makes me more suspect.
I claimed in the neighborhood last night;

I would know there'd be no third nightkill to corroborate my claim

. With no third kill to corroborate my claim, the town would be come (rightly, in this scenario) suspect I was the source of the kills. Claiming would be asking to be eliminated immediately. It doesn't save my life, it needlessly endangers my life.

Why do I not just shoot players I can plausibly claim to have hero-vigged and claim vigilante?

You can say "Ranger didn't want to shoot mislim targets", but what's to stop a scum-Ranger from having a deliberate scumread on a townier player and shooting that player with my role under the guise of having a scumread on them?
Alternatively,

What's to stop a scum-Ranger from realclaiming her role

and

targets?

If my role were real and scum, that means I could have just claimed my real targets

every

night, not just last night.

In short, there's nothing gained from realclaiming role but not targets as mafia.

2: Ranger is a weird form of serial killer, realclaiming role, but not targets.
Presumably, in this scenario, I am the source of the second kill every night.
This runs into similar issues as the above.

Why do I not claim third party here?

I can lie about being a serial killer and truthfully claim to be third party. I've no need to claim town, I can claim 3p and specify any win condition I want. It's a xyzzy bastard game, a 3p could have the wincon of having players all say "you're a sussy baka", and it wouldn't be out of place. I could claim literally any 3p, and it'd be believed.

Why was I 3p hunting?

I didn't focus on 3p hunting, but 3ps want to

avoid

talks of third parties, not

facilitate

the talks of 3p. Talking about 3p as 3p is dangerous.

Why do I not claim vig here?

I can use my role to shoot at players freely, and claim vigilante. It only takes my shots matching my reads. So why would I lie about my targets? Why not shoot players who I felt were good shots for a vig to make? After all, as a 3p in this scenario, I don't know the scumteam and I have incentive to want the scum dead. A 3p doesn't want to shoot the towniest slots in the game, especially knowing scum are likely doing so.

In short, there's nothing gained from realclaiming role but not targets as some form of serial killer.

3: Ranger is mafia who has access to a second kill, and is lying about the rest.

This makes even less sense than scenario 1, because it runs into the same issues, only magnified.

Why do I invent half of my role up?

I've no reason to add it in.

Why do I claim the same type of role as my

already flipped

scum partner?

kitten around was a modified Doctor, and in this scenario I'd be adding in a modified doctor to my claim. That invites suspicion.

And it still runs into the same issues as the first scenario on top of the new issues:

Why do I not just shoot players I can plausibly claim to have hero-vigged and claim vigilante?

I still know how to shoot town which are below null in my reads. As I control my reads, I control who I put south of null, so I can justify any shot I take as a personal scumread.

Why do I not just claim fakeclaim the doctor half and leave the true vig half out?

It's still a plenty plausible claim. It doesn't need the real role in this scenario to stand out on its own.

Why do I truthfully claim my HighPrincessErinys shot?

I would know there'd be no third nightkill to corroborate my claim, so two kills every night suggests the truth in this scenario to the town.
It places suspicion on me needlessly, putting me under fire when I could have simply...not claimed that shot.

4: Ranger is a serial killer who is killing every night, lying about the rest.
Presumably, in this scenario, I am the source of the second kill every night.
This

still

runs into similar issues as the above.

Why do I not claim vig here?

A vigilante in this game is plenty viable. I can claim it fairly easily.

If I felt I needed modifiers attached to my role,

Why do I claim a role inviting the scum to target me?

Bulletproof serial killers tend to have a limited number of vests, so the only way you can say claiming a role inviting the scum to shoot me is if you think I'm an unlimited-BP serial killer.
But even then, that runs into a problem.

Why do I lie about my targets?

I could still truthfully claim targets, with the kills on town being 'oops nobody visited them therefore I vigged them'.

And it has another issue.

Why do I lie about something I can be caught in the lie of?

This is a xyzzy game. xyzzy loves watchers, trackers, followers, voyeurs, etc. Any one of them would have the means to catch me.
This, in addition to the lack of kills matching my claim.

Why was I 3p hunting?

Hunting for 3p as the 3p in question is far more unnatural than simply hunting scum and nothing but scum. The focus on 3p places me under unnecessary suspicion.

5: Ranger is mafia, truthfully claiming the doctor half and lying about the vigilante half.

Okay, so

how did I kill HighPrincessErinys?

I wouldn't have a second kill every night.

What caused the second kills every night?

This scenario still leaves those kills unaccounted for.

Why not just truthfully claim the doctor role?

It stands as a claim different enough from kitten around's claim on its own.

6: Ranger is some form of 3p, truthfully claiming the doctor half and lying about the vigilante half.

I don't think anyone can seriously believe this because there's no 3p that wouldn't just claim 3p-with-protection or town-doctor here. Inventing a nonexistent vig action puts me directly into the firing line, something I'm not inclined to do. I also don't need to 3p hunt here.


Did I cover all of the mafia/3p scenarios? (Let me know if I missed some, I feel like I did.)
Let's cover the town.

7: Ranger is town who lied.
No, just no. There's value to be had in misdirection, but a lie when we're close to lylo is likely to cost the town the game. I'd happily lie on D1. Not so on what very well may be the day before lylo. I

might

gambit during the night, but I'd come clean once daystart came around.

8: Ranger is town, telling the truth.
I didn't invent anything which would get me caught.
I didn't target anybody who would get me caught.
I didn't lie.
I told the truth, and my role is exactly what I said it is.

I performed a protective action on CSF N1, and on Lycanfire N2.
I killed HighPrincessErinys on N3.

We

do

have unexplained kills (and the absence of an extra last night), but there's multiple possible explanations for them.

From a motive perspective,

I have no reason to lie

in this way

in my claim OR roles regardless of mafia or serial killer

; lying

in this way

would be directly detrimental to my chances of survival. It only takes one of my claimed targets being proven false. It only takes one rolecop to prove a fakeclaim false. My play doesn't reflect any form of optimal play in those scenarios.

[Ranger]

I think we do a massclaim here.

Oh so

now

you want a massclaim.

Don't try to steal credit for it tho.

I was the one to suggest it in the first place.

Obviously, I support it.

You have my claim.

[Ranger]

Plus, imaginality and I are lovers (which Frogsterking joining Ranger's bullshit there was bad). That means solving today.

Modifying your claim again, I see.

And this is a particularly bad modification to it, because

you put sus on players for

(apparently rightly)

suggesting you're lovers

.

You put sus on players

for being right

, when you

knew

they were right to make that sus.

[Ranger]

I blindly accepted previously that Frogsterking's role 'Town Psychologist' pointed to a SK, but looking at the wiki now, it doesn't necessarily. It's more similar to a Gunsmith. Both of these roles do indicate non-mafia killing roles to me, but not necessarily SK specifically.

Frogsterking wasn't a Psychologist.

Frogsterking was a Psychiatrist.

The two roles do

very

different things.

A psychologist, the common role that's Normal, checks to see if someone's capable of killing but has yet to. This would fit in any game, ever. But Frogsterking wasn't a psychologist.
A psychiatrist, a role which fell out of use once alignment/role changes became banned in Normals due to it involving an alignment change, causing a Serial Killer to change role into either VT or Vig (depending). This is what Frogsterking actually was.

xyzzy designed this game in 2019, but Psychologists as a Normal role were Normal for over a full year at that time, having become Normal during May 2018. Psychologists were already in use prior to being Normalized, too, so there's no way xyzzy would confuse the two.

I'm realising that I need clarification on whether Ranger's role requires their targeted to be the

victim of a kill attempt

, or just the object of

any

action that night.

If xyzzy wanted my role to be just kill attempts, xyzzy would've just called it CPR Doctor.

xyzzy did not, because my role isn't a CPR Doctor. It's effectively a

modified

CPR doctor; it works off of

any

actions rather than just

killing

actions.

A CPR doctor kills a target not targeted by a nightkill;
My role kills a target not targeted by

any

night action.

A CPR doctor protects a target targeted by a nightkill;
My role protects a target targeted by

any

night action.

Speaking of CPR Doctor though;

Why wouldn't I just claim that?

Why invent a new role rather than simply claim a, far simpler, role from the same era as a Psychiatrist? Psychiatrists and CPR Doctors have the approximate same time of being common roles. I could've easily claimed that, no need to invent new modifiers. (Where would I get those modifiers, anyway? I got them from xyzzy because they're in my role PM. If I were lying in my claim, I wouldn't have them, would I?)

[Ranger]

I think Lycanfire was dead.

No, Lycanfire was alive N2.

Lycanfire was killed D3 by Not_Mafia with the role he's now claiming to have received N2.

Lycanfire was thus alive N2 when it was allegedly distributed.

[Ranger]

Now both are insisting on a massclaim for vague reasons when the mod explicitly warned us that massclaiming would probably be end poorly for town.

I agree Titus and imaginality are suspect.

However, while we certainly shouldn't trust them or blindly follow them,
-They sort out tonight (per imaginality, they can't survive so if they do we lim them tomorrow),
-And they are proposing something I believe is protown at this stage regardless.

There's only nine alive.
Tomorrow has a chance to be

three

alive:
An elimination brings us to 8 alive.
If Titus's role is real and she bombs a player, that player dies. imaginality dies.
From that, we get 5 alive.
The mafia have a nightkill. From that, we get 4 alive.
I have the potential to vig a player. From that, we get 3 alive.

If scum live through the assault of nightkills, they'd be able to claim whatever tomorrow, and they'd be

at worst

in a 1v1.

I thus support massclaiming today even if the players proposing it are suspect.

[Ranger]

Disloyal doctor. I expected a protective role if I was cleared. I just didn't expect it to be scum. Yes it doesn't make sense from a design perspective but it punishes scum for protecting me.

I've literally claimed Solo Vig Duet Doctor.

That itself explains the punish-massclaim disclaimer; my role won't have the intended outcome if scum can manipulate it to be the opposite of desired, turning my attempts to protect into a kill and my attempts to kill into a protection.

I'm the protective role you're expecting and you're doubting my claim.

[Ranger]

Am I the only one who has issues with Titus and her claim?

You are not.

However, because of the claim resolving tonight (if either Titus or imaginality live to D5, lim them), no matter how much we distrust their claim, there's no reason to eliminate them today.

If their role isn't real, tomorrow there'd be 5-8 players alive. (5 if I kill and there's two kills. 6 if I don't kill and there's two kills. 7 if I save one of the kills. 8 if the kills overlap and I protect correctly.) They cannot endgame on their own even at 5 alive. Whatever their role, however many are alive, they can be limmed.

If their role is real, tomorrow they are dead, so it doesn't matter what issues we had with their claim.

It'd be a mistake to focus on Titus/imaginality today as they shouldn't be eliminated regardless; we can afford to wait.

Now, not

trusting

them today,

that

I recommend. But there's a difference between not trusting them and wanting them dead. We shouldn't want them dead today; we

should

be skeptical of the many inconsistencies in their claim and play.

[Ranger]

pedit: yeah I can see it now. I somehow didn't know they were lovers.

There's a reason for that; they denied being lovers on prior days and put suspicion on those who suggested the idea they were lovers.

Their modification of the claim today goes directly against their stances on prior days. It means they were attacking town players for the sin of those town players correctly deducing an element of their role they didn't want to claim.

[Ranger]

Make me a promise that if they live through the night you don't allow them to change their story again and make excuses, and elim them like we should have on day 2.

*D1. imaginality should've been the D1 elimination, not Frogsterking.

[Ranger]

A concern I have is that we don't know when endgame is.

Mathematically, I'm fairly certain the only way it

could

be is if we mislim today, they're a serial killer duo, and there's only one mafia left alive, and I shoot town. (Bringing us to 5 alive with 3 nontown.)

Otherwise, in all other scenarios, Titus and imaginality cannot endgame overnight.

[Ranger]

My current world is Ranger+QO Scum with NM SK so... this isn't particularly comforting to me, Titus.

Well it should please you to learn I want Quiet Owl dead and have the whole game, then.

[Ranger]

It's not comforting to me that you want to kill my VCA clear when Patterson and Gimli are much more suspicious.

Your VCA ignores context displaying why it's inaccurate.

Your VCA claimed Not_Mafia hammered Lycanfire to save me, when

that's backwards from the evidence

.

Your VCA ignores context such as Enchant, Not_Mafia, and Quiet Owl having quickhammered Frogsterking on D1.

Your VCA ignores how MathBlade voted for kitten around, which indicates MathBlade's Quiet Owl vote may have been similar.

Your VCA ignores how MathBlade is the only flipped scum on Quiet Owl, a wagon

your allegedly conftown partner was a part of

.
Your VCA ignores how

two of the dead scum

were on kitten around, indicating

scum clearly approved of the wagon

(you have PROOF that

scum bussed

).

Not one but

two

dead scum were on the wagon; the only dead scum not on the wagon were kitten around herself and MathBlade.

If two scum were on kitten around, chances are fairly high the scum weren't trying to counterwagon kitten around with a wagon on a town player. Were they, the scum wouldn't be on kitten around; they'd be on that counterwagon.

[Ranger]

If we lim Ranger, then it frees me up to do what they fear, actually get the real last scum.

Funny you say that.

I have a claimed kill.

What stops scum from being afraid *I* will shoot the last scum?

My reads could be wrong the entire game; all it takes for me to win the game is to have

one

action turn that around.

That's a threat to the scum.

[Ranger]

I feel Ranger is the SK and scum want the KPN. Her post might as well scream SK.

As the SK, I don't 3p hunt.
I hunt scum.
I shoot at scumreads. (Not townreads.) My HighPrincessErinys kill matches shooting my scumreads. If I were the one to kill the Gamma Emerald slot, that would too. But why would I claim the Princess kill and then

not

claim the Gamma Emerald slot kill? And where's my kill on a scumread N1? I was townreading both StD and MT, with both in my top tier of townread. I guarantee you neither was killed by me.

I don't suspect a serial killer duo while I am the serial killer.

I hunt for scum and try to make people think there's no third party at all.

Frogsterking's flip proves there's a serial killer, sure, but I was hunting 3p on D1, before Frogsterking flipped.

I literally have neighborhood proof I made the Psychiatrist/Psychologist mixup N1. (KittyTacky and the furtiveglance hydra can confirm. I quoted a MathBlade post and erroneously confused Psychiatrist and Psychologist. Not sure if I'm allowed to specify a post or page, but it was about 2/3rds through the neighborhood PT, and about middle in my iso.)
As a serial killer, that's not a mistake I'd have made.

As the SK, I don't claim a role which makes me look like a serial killer.

I'm not a Serial Killer. I actually think my role was meant to be protective with the option of being used offensively.

[Ranger]

Unless we get a doc claim on Ranger or a QO block (unlikely), there's certain scum in Ranger and QO. QO, why didn't you claim this sooner? Why wait until massclaim?

Almost like Quiet Owl is fakeclaiming.

Remember when we had Quiet Owl near elimination and QO refused to claim?

I sure do!

[Ranger]

What's a super saint?

Supersaints kill the hammerer.

[Ranger]

you, however, were being seriously questioned for the first time by a player who was generally townread.

Not so. There has been suspicion on me from townread players the entire game. (I can track these Ranger suspicions from townread players later reversed if you insist, but suffice to say, this is provable by reading the thread, something you seem adverse to doing. I wonder why?)

They never gained traction.

Lycanfire was no different.

You know why they never gained traction?

Because every single time, I talked to them and they were satisfied enough with my responses.

Lycanfire was no different.

Had Lycanfire not been executed, I'd have been able to convince him, the same way I had convinced other townread players.

The only difference between Lycanfire and those previous times was Lycanfire was executed.

[Ranger]

Ranger, your alternative suggestions of what you could have claimed (any 3rd party, plain vig) would be more likely to be perceived as an obvious SK fakeclaim than your current claim. It doesn't make sense to argue that you would have been better off claiming those instead.

Not from me.

There's far simpler claims to make which avoid looking like a serial killer. Why not just claim the doctor half? That role fits on its own. What about 'indecisive duet doctor' screams serial killer to you?

It doesn't.

It's not something I'd fakeclaim.

[Ranger]

We know Gamma was town and Enchant scum. This wagon came superfast after Frogsterking claimed with zero attempt at clarification. So it's time to look at NM and QO closer regarding Frogsterking.

Guess who, in contrast to that group of names, was an adamant defender of Frogsterking?

There's a reason the D1 wagon empowered my confidence. (Wrongly so, but not without good reason.)

[Ranger]

The fact of insisting lovers came across as knowledge. Knowledge town would claim.

I had no knowledge but I do have basic understanding of your play and mechanical know-how. I'm fully capable of deducing mechanics without prior knowledge; this has gotten me in trouble before off of accusations of having TMI. (Surprise! I just made a good guess. Because mechanics are something I have a good nose for sniffing out as town.)

[Ranger]

You also deserve a VCA response but I usually eyeroll most claims of "but context" as just ignoring the evidence. I will give it another look since you can't be both scum and SK.

You can start with 2718/2719, as well as the preceding 2653.

I laid out which two pages to read, and it is genuinely

two

pages. Literally just two.

Easiest context-check ever.

[Ranger]

you absolutely were not hunting 3p on D1. you actively discouraged it by calling it pro-scum in 1116.

I said

focusing

on 3p hunting was proscum. (It is.)

I still indulged on the side. 967, 1109, and neighborhood posts, among others.

I believed {Titus, imaginality} wasn't both scum.
I felt the pairing wasn't both town.
They claimed each other as conftown.

Those are all shown throughout D1.

[Ranger]

strange how you like the "this role is too elaborate to possibly have come from scum" defence for yourself, but think it indicates that i'm scum.

I don't recall saying your claim was elaborate in a way making you scum.

I recall stating your claim is a fakeclaim off of timing.