Large Normal 221 - Endgame

[Kirari Momobami]

Actually it occurs to me that he posted the "about time [x] rolls scum" in a recent scum game

VOTE: S_S
about time he rolls scum against us

but that wasn't a bus

so I guess it's not impossible he'd pull that line against Creature as s/s?

still I think he's safely not traitor given his 'slip' earlier

maybe I'm writing him off as not-group-scum too easily though?

I did still think the day 1 push against Creature was decently townie though maybe, outside of the weird beginning?

[Kirari Momobami]

Yeah we should get Otter's claim at this point I think

[Kirari Momobami]

I'd still like a list from you nom

[Kirari Momobami]

2292 looks really bad on an otter redflip.

Well the hope is that on an otter redflip the game ends

[Kirari Momobami]

You think this was a 15/3? I mean eh.....

? I've been pretty insistent that nom is likely traitor, I'm totally confident she's not town I'm just not sure she's shared-PT with Creature. I think it's 14-3-1[traitor] at this point, given the two scum flipped relatively decent scum PRs (2x quasi ascetic/bp in a game with vigs n1-4 is not bad) and I haven't been hear a lot of town power claims other than the bp/vig, informed, and second alternating vig. 14-3-1 with that as the core town power structure would easily pass review.

As I have said, if all we want is a sure non-town flip, I absolutely would flip nom here over anyone else, as has been mentioned there's just reason to think her flip doesn't end the game but rather just gets rid of the traitor. Still, getting rid of the traitor would be preferable to a mislynch if we had a strong argument for otter scum. I just don't see any strong arguments for otter scum; the arguments on hand are more "doesn't feel like scum to me" from KK and others I feel but I haven't seen anything from his play that makes me think he's not scum that's just given up on a lost game.

Even so I still only put him on 65% scum whereas nom is like, way above that, solid 90%+ in my mind, I just think she's traitor not killing scum.

I kinda don't get why you think I was saying 15-3 when I feel like I've repeated my points about nom basically ad nauseum and my entire discussion today has resolved around 14-3-1. Hell if it was 15-3 then I'd be on nom here and have to just assume I'm wrong on her being traitor and that somehow Creature distanced her as groupscum like that which would be surprising but not impossible.

[Kirari Momobami]

When did I say anything about Montosh today? And when did I say I wanted a reaction out of you? I don't care about your reactions, you're pretty clearly scum lol

[Kirari Momobami]

I want her slot lynched at LYLO-1

Why do you want to wait?

Because she knows if she goes at me today she's gonna get lynched lol

[Kirari Momobami]

just read my posts

I am hardcore skimming.

[Kirari Momobami]

I can't remember the last time I played a game with a traitor but I definitely didn't pay attention to this exchange

If Red and Montosh are scum together, why wouldn't Red just jump on the Niko wagon there?

Your question is backwards. If scum!Montosh part of the 5 votes then it's more likely that Nikomislynch is at risk of not truly occurring because a high number of mistaken townies is needed. Since scum!Montosh actually wasn't part of the five votes it is more likely that RedFlavor could keep his hands clean of the mislynch whilst the mislynch still occurs.

Really not following you here.

At any rate, in a scum!Montosh world, why would Red join him on Vork to create a competing wagon with Niko, when Creature still has some votes. That play doesn't make sense to me.

because Niko claimed traitor and Vorkuta is just a mislynch!

This may be a fantasy but if it is I prefer it to reality.

niko is town probs but Jesus

And here. I think there was plenty reason to want to push on Niko and keep the focus there, rather than let the focus shift back to Creature once the novelty wore off

@Kirari why risk it, though? Why not just stick a vote on Niko if it's such an easy vote to make? I'm saying scum

did

do that and Red didn't want to join his buddy.

Following my thoughts on this one. I'm guessing orfhz over Hirari.

VOTE: ofrhz

so you didn't think to look up what a traitor was when it was being actively discussed while you were online 10 days ago?

[Kirari Momobami]

It's possible but damn dude, that's a week and a half of you not understanding any of the mech talk or accusations in the game?

[Kirari Momobami]

Intuitively, I just imagined "traitor" was some variant of a SK.

Like can you expand on this point. What does this mean? How were you interpreting specific posts.

[Kirari Momobami]

I do admit I am not sure otter has the disposition to try to fake a townslip to dodge a lynch as scum

But I also am kinda blown away by him missing 4 pages worth of posts discussing traitors in this game... That's 4% of the entire game he has not understood, basically all of it in the last 10 days

[Kirari Momobami]

I definitely want Otter to finish responding to those points before I move on

If we don't do otter why is your inclination to go ofrhz over nom?

[Kirari Momobami]

There being one group scum left is an inference I made from the traitor spec.

Before KK's claim, I would have thought 1 group scum, 1 SK (Maybe + traitor for group scum?)
After KK's claim, I've gravitated toward 1 group scum + 1 traitor

but KK's claim does not in itself guarantee there is a traitor. There could simply be 2 group scum and the scum cop could have been pure wifom. I *highly* doubt that, but it's not impossible.

But accepting *some* level of setup spec is required if you're looking only for one groupscum at this point

[Kirari Momobami]

Nom isn't playing very much like someone who can make their problems go away during the night phase, nom like someone who cannot make noms problems go away without persuasive dayplay. That doesn't preclude traitor but I'm not here to traitor hunt.

ehh, nom would be last groupscum if she was scum (probably). vis-a-vis she could not make her problems go away in *one* night phase because the vig is still around.

In my mind the argument that nom is traitor and not groupscum is largely based on Creature's interactions with the slot, which is a major concern but does not preclude her from being groupscum.

ofrhz is hard to read given activity but I would be pretty surprised if she was groupscum given how she interacted with red, and frankly, from the fact that she's a top 4 poster frankly. I can't find a game where as scum she breaks 100 posts; if you can let me know

[Kirari Momobami]

I don't know not_known that will but if the problem with a wifom mafia cop is the requisite sadism towards the scumteam his proxy night actions policy seems to already demonstrate that so I don't see why it should be hard exclude

[Kirari Momobami]

I like that with Kirari's explanation I can simultaneously be SK, traitor and groupscum lmao

all I know is that you ain't town lol

[Kirari Momobami]

Alternatively you could not hammer and follow me on Of.

I feel like your stated reasons for wanting me lynched are pretty ... weak compared to how much conviction you have in me flipping scum.

Who else do you scumread?

She asks after nom has dodged my requests for a reads list not once but twice

[Kirari Momobami]

VOTE: otter ok I will sheep you kirari you're my new nero cain you didn't lead me into mislynch yesterday and you don't make fun of my animu

I like the sentiment but I think I'm down to 50/50 on otter lol

The less confident I am on him the more I want to lynch nom and hope game is solved tomorrow with mass

[Kirari Momobami]

Idk between being 90%sure nom is scum and 60% sure she's not main faction vs only 50% thinking otter is main faction I'm kinda at... Just get nom's flip and know how many mislynches we got tomorrow during mass.

[Kirari Momobami]

I'll keep thinking about it anyway. I want to look into Otter more about this not knowing traitor mech thing because that's still really jarring to me

[Kirari Momobami]

Yeah otter had never said the word "traitor" before this game... If he really thought traitor was like sk???????? Then I guess it makes sense he would not react to the chamge of mech......even if it rrally bothers me that he understands the mech now?

But I kinda don't think scum otter fakes a traitor dumbtell


Now there is still a question....creature would not explain what a traitor is and I am honestly not sure about redflavor. But it is hard to imagine otter as groupscum would be informed there is a traitor and then never investigate it.

But it still really bothers me he never got it clarified as town even though it's been actively discussed for a week and a half

[Kirari Momobami]

VOTE: nom.

This just increasingly feels like the better choice

[Kirari Momobami]

OK let's review.

Town: pops -- high confidence town

Conditional read -- Kublai Khan is very high confidence town given he produces a vig that is NOT HIMSELF tomorrow, assuming there is a tomorrow

nero -- medium confidence town
ofrhz -- medium/low confidence town -- off meta, I slightly think ofrhz is outside her scumrange... not dramatically, but this is definitely not her "comfortable" scumrange which is more of a hardlurky style. It's possible she was pushed out by consistent pressure, but I also dislike her treatment of the redflavor wagon as s/s.

Lucky Otter -- low confidence town -- being scum requires believing he faked a dumbtell irt traitor which based on his disposition and style I frankly just don't think he does, you're welcome to disagree and lynch him past me since he's just a vt anyway

Potential Groupscums:
Jesus Louisus -- don't love this for groupscum due to being the counter-wagon to RF. Cross-busses are not impossible, particularly given this scumteam in particular seems to like cross-busses, but a mid-game cross-bus like the one between jesus louisus and redflavor seems a bit harder to see as s/s vs. the early game distancing the whole scumteam was doing. Not impossible though. Oh yeah, I also didn't like his comment about pisskop coming from someone who planned to kill him that night, although I guess? it could have been RedFlavor's kill choice? ehhh

DeasVail -- Didn't like him pairing me with Creature in 708, but the more I think about this game I'm kinda warming up to 1274. Obviously that he defended Creature early game and then defended Red in 1493 is not a good look. I also kinda like the list in 1639. The main problem in sorting this slot is that so much of the iso is built around Otter, so if Otter is town it's kinda an additionally bad look. Even so the enthusiasm for the otter lynch feels genuine, in posts such as 2260. I feel pretty conflicted on this slot but there are good points to be made in considering a read either way.

Vork -- I kinda have been second guessing this slot a little since I realized he did the "time for a scum {X}" thing as scum recently, that post was one of the main reasons I didn't like him for main-faction groupscum but outside of that I need to reread what this slot has been doing probably. Actually it's hard to remember what he's done since he's been jarringly absent since day 1? Maybe this is actually a better chance of last groupscum than I thought?

Basically never town, some reasons to think maybe? not last groupscum
nomnomnom -- more to come on this in a bit

Actually can everyone remind me what their read of Vork is right now?

[Kirari Momobami]

@Kirari you seriously think Otter is town and that I'm scum?

I'm leaning that way rn yeah

[Kirari Momobami]

HWS slot is complicated, but one thing was the Vork flip. I'm not sure what to do with it but it's something I've thought about a bit so I'll leave my note here.

Spoiler:

Agree with this, also light TR on Kirari/Otter/Vorkuta for the time being.
Not really seeing pisskop scum either

Not much yet - as I said I'm due to re-read the game - but after a bit of looking this afternoon I'd say I have a soft scumlean on Vork and Kop.

basically no explanation for this change in read and I'm still not sure what to do about it, Alch argued it was likely to come from town more than scum but I disagreed; I think it can very easily come from scum who is generating fakereads initially and since the read is fake then later struggles to remember what that read was or why they had it. Such a random flip like this seems like it can possibly come from cognitive load.

The main thing here for me is Alch's argument.

Pretty sure rosterfoster is one scum

I wonder what's the resistance to HWS seeing everybody softed a scumread on them but never pulled a train on him like they did to me

Montosh is 100% town.

Hmm no not a fan of Montosh here. Too serious a reaction and I think Nero has a fair point in reacting to that.

Also it only took Saudade 2 pages to blow up the game, nice.

This is a scum post though.

VOTE: Swims

Hmm

VOTE: HWS

Thinking this spews both Roster and HWS as Town.

This is not a bad argument, but it doesn't make HWS town, it makes it *less likely* that HWS is shared-PT with Creature. It is entirely plausible that Creature is making this play against a scum traitor, which is why Alch's "towncase" is not actually a towncase but rather a not-main-faction case.

*But this is purely based on speculation about how Creature would interact with a scumbuddy*

That is to say this does not make it certain that nom is not main faction group scum, just significantly less likely. This is also not a super deep or prolonged interaction and doesn't require anything from the HWS side. If Creature thought a HWS lynch would give him towncred and that HWS would not be a useful ally, I don't see why he wouldn't bus like this.

[Kirari Momobami]

If I am traitor and that Otter is town explain to me why I do not hammer him here and buy my groupscum more ground, and instead go to the length of defending Otter and saying he is lynchbait.

I'd love to hear an answer to that one.

Cause you don't win the game with one mislynch? We're not in lylo so wtf are you talking about? For your faction to not get mech'd to death you need to win your 1v1 with me lol. Since he's just a VT you still have no idea what the actual town investigative structure is like aside from the one vig and whatever KK is so you actually have more incentive to push a mislynch on someone unclaimed as well.

[Kirari Momobami]

I'm sad that I only got a short little sentence. I want a full article about y I'm town.

I fully encourage people to make their own decisions about you and I would like to hear more of Jesus's reasoning on why he thinks you're scum. I'm more confident you're town than several other people, but my opinion on your alignment is not infallible.

[Kirari Momobami]

remind me why in the world you think there is a traitor to begin with?

Because KK probably is not lying about there being an SK and not a vig, and because the scum had an alignment cop and that doesn't really make sense without a use for that cop. While it's not impossible for there to be a "wifom cop" I want to say it is very, very unlikely given the limited power scum usually gets in normal games.

[Kirari Momobami]

being an SK and not a vig

ebwop vig and not an sk, obviously

[Kirari Momobami]

We are not lynching Vork or me today for that matter.

WTF? Where did this come from? This is the 7th time you've even said Vork's name this game and at no point have you actually given an opinion on his alignment.

By the way that's now two people that have asked you for a reads list a total of three times, now four, which you still have failed to produce.

But suddenly Vork is someone we're "not lynching" who you've basically had no opinion on the entire game?

[Kirari Momobami]

if traitor is actually halfjester i kinda think no one in this game has been acting like a halfjester. I really think it's just a wifom mafia cop

wtf are you saying halfjester? Traitor is not halfjester, traitor does not want to be lynched and does not want to be shot and does not want to spew their partners scum. That is 0% jester

[Kirari Momobami]

I would have taken the hammer given the intense heat on my seat right now

not if you planned to have a chance in your 1v1 tomorrow LOL

you don't strike me as someone who just hammers a scummy VT just to accept their own death in mylo

[Kirari Momobami]

the way normal queue traitor has been explained to me, being alive doesn't help his faction win the game anymore than being dead

a lynch that is used up on the traitor is necessarily not simultaneously used up on the groupscum

halfjester

No.

This is incorrect.

The traitor *cannot solo endgame* but he DOES count for scum wincondition.

If it is 2-1[groupscum]-1[traitor] the groupscum faction immediately wins even if there is a risk of the groupscum shooting the traitor because the traitor counts toward the scum wincon.

Losing a traitor means the groupscum needs an additional mislynch, it is objectively suboptimal for a traitor to get lynched, although the traitor DOES want to get lynched in lieu of the groupscum if they know there is only one groupscum remaining because then they would be endgamed. That's the only time the traitor would play suicidally.

[Kirari Momobami]

but if there

IS

an SK then I think that it makes a traitor almost nonexistent.

Why shouldn't KK full claim?

he probably should claim slightly more since his claim is kinda weird, I'm not disagreeing with you, but I don't see the logic in his claim coming from a scum POV given what he's said so far unless he planned to claim vig tomorrow.

[Kirari Momobami]

You are deadly wrong about what I would do as scum, or town for that matter lol

Deadly wrong huh?

[Kirari Momobami]

People have argued for and against otter WAYYYY more than what they've done with you.

Yes, and a big reason for this is due to the makeup of the wagon pushing him and the fact that 0 people on that wagon have actually produced any particularly compelling arguments one way or the other, including you whose actual argument for ofrhz scum is incredibly weak given how much you're complaining about the lack of support for the wagon LOL

[Kirari Momobami]

Is it wrong that I play all my scum games by picking a team deepwolf that busses everyone else and try to get that player to endgame, eschewing all sweeps

cause I do and therefore all my traitors are halfjesters

okay sure but the traitor does not play as a jester, they just play as someone who it is fine for the scumteam to bus if they want to... idk maybe I'm not really gelling with what you mean by "halfjester" but it feels like a needlessly convoluted description. To me traitor plays more like survivor than jester, I'd call it a half-jester. In fact survivors are perhaps better understood as "half-traitors" if you really wanted to get into mech conceptualizations an balance discussions but that's kinda offtopic.

[Kirari Momobami]

The point was more that for me to come up with scum theatre like this I would need to be better than I already am.
I know my weaknesses and this is one of them.

Offtopic but I don't really think I am good honestly, although some people say I am.

If you ended in a scum game as town against me you would probably lose because you have a wrong image of how I play as scum. People tend to hardcore read me town as scum for a reason

"I'm not good enough to be scum this game"

"I'm so good as scum that you wouldn't be scumreading me this game if I was scum"

[Kirari Momobami]

I’ll still ask people to reconsider Otter as an option.

It's maybe worth still thinking about, I don't think the dumbtell makes him 100% town, I've seen scum try to fake dumbtells literally in the last week under not totally different circumstances, but... this particular one I find slightly more convincing :/

I think the level of disengagement necessary for the scumtell to be plausible is concerning regardless

[Kirari Momobami]

decredibilize

[Kirari Momobami]

Actually can everyone remind me what their read of Vork is right now?

I still want this btw, I know the thread has massively picked up but wouldn't mind a quick check in on this read from everyone

[Kirari Momobami]

Vork is prob town

Why's that?

[Kirari Momobami]

I’ll still ask people to reconsider Otter as an option.

You know shit this is a point, the slip would only mean that scum don't have a traitor. I don't know why scum had a cop if they don't have a traitor and there's no SK, but you're right that it doesn't in itself make him town... still...

:/

Given the evidence we have that there is a traitor or something, I'm not sure he's a good lynch today. But hopefully I'm not letting him off too easily here?

[Kirari Momobami]

So the situation now is that we're not going to get a consensus out of Vork vs. DV and frankly I'm not sure which of the two is scum.

However, nomnom is scum so we should probably just lynch that slot today since I now have very little confidence in Otter flipping scum and I'm not sure who of the remaining candidates I'm right or wrong on.

So let's think through this slot.

HWS/Nom earlyish game

Hmm no not a fan of Montosh here. Too serious a reaction and I think Nero has a fair point in reacting to that.

Also it only took Saudade 2 pages to blow up the game, nice.

This is just a weird post and if we look at here

I think that's a good catch and I think it really is something scum could do.

He's 0/2 for scumreads right now, and thinking of HWS... it's kinda surprising he has so many scumreads so early almost? HWS isn't bad, exactly, but he is coming off as having much stronger reads than I would expect for early game here

Agree with this, also light TR on Kirari/Otter/Vorkuta for the time being.
Not really seeing pisskop scum either

Huh, all of these townreads are still alive, and I know I am town. Pisskop also flipped town, but HWS+Otter or Vork works really well here for s/s.

Mostly though, I have looked at HWS's towngames, and this is kinda a surprisingly structured list given how briefly he was in the game. Usually as town he kinda pokes and prods more early rather than coming out with a whole buncha reads.

Not much yet - as I said I'm due to re-read the game - but after a bit of looking this afternoon I'd say I have a soft scumlean on Vork and Kop.

Weird flip on Vork; not sure what it means but it doesn't make me MORE confident that his reads earlier were real

Anyway, nothing town indicative in the iso IMO

Now, Nom has a lot of posts. I don't want to break the site by walling too much but let's look at some selections

Also waiting for Kirari's result before doing anything today.

Again, this makes zero sense. "Motion" or "no motion" is worth stalling the game over? This is not a town thought process or a town reaction to a claim made in RVS and never mentioned after.

Creature has been killed.

GOOD shot.

VOTE: Eyes

Scummy overreaction

Also I'm going to be honest this game has a lot of people that are complete ??? in my mind aside from a few people where I have *some* idea of what's happening with them.

Who are the people you have some idea on?

Huh honestly the only person I am sure is town is Kublai. Just town through and through.

There's too much lurking and questionable stuff happening this game on too many fronts to make solid reads. 44 pages on day 1 in a large and most of it is a guy going lolrandomxd. That's bad to build reads.

Considering her predecessor was wagoned early game and there was a wagon on the flipped scum that was killed like, this is a really jarring characterization of day 1. Why does she think it was uninformative?

But this is important given that she wants to keep her lynch options open, lol, something she consistently does through the entire game. nom does a great job of antispewing while posting a lot, which mostly involves her giving scummy 'reactions' rather than sustained analysis

imo you're reading too much into it, literally would not have thought that ever

Are you just trying to discredit my theory because you share a scum PT with him and this is thwarting your plans?

what a great deduction
nominating this for moment of brilliance

not

scummy overreaction

I think you're not scumhunting at all, you've been trying to fish things out of people and clearly reaching. None of what you've been doing is actually scumhunting and the small tidbit you've been doing is surface level.

So I think you're scum.

It's interesting that she projects so much confidence here on joining the game but as the game goes on it gets dropped without there ever being a point where she started thinking Jesus was town

My biggest question is if Jesus is scum, why does he kill Eyes, which was his biggest push before RF did an oopsie.

What's super jarring here is she has this logic about Jesus on *Eyes* but does NOT have this logic about Jesus on pisskop! So she spent the entire preceding dayphase pushing Jesus when Jesus would have had to have pushed his biggest fos before killing, only to then turn around and decide that suddenly NKA is relevant to her read? That's not a townie inconsistency.

kk town
otter town
kirari townlean
red scumlean

need to re-assess eyes soon
That's about where I am. This game is hard to work in re-looking at day one

Now, this isn't that bad of a post, in fact I know two of these reads are correct (given my role pm and Red's scumflip), and another could be correct (KK). But what's *really jarring* here is not this post in itself, but the fact that this post demonstrate that nom can form a readslist early in the game without great difficulty, even if incomplete. Compare that to today when she has been asked 4 times for a readslist and has stalled or skirted the issue every single time. She has shifted to anti-spewing the more she has gotten pushed, trying to make more and more of the game about her 1v1 with me, arguing otter town, and pushing ofrhz for scum with very little logical reasoning given for any other slot. It's like the game consists of 4 people if you look at her iso today.

Now how does she have so many posts when she is talking about so few people? Well look at how she pushes Jesus...

Spoiler:

hm...

VOTE: jesus

I just think Jesus has a good chance flipping scum now though.

Tbh the fact it's a large isn't my problem, just that many slots are hard to sort. The amount of posts this game is absurdly low for a large.
I expected to have better cases replacing in n1 and rereading the thread but I guess things are still a bit shaky.

Jesus is my only solid lead so far.

Why nom? I kinda liked her interaction with Jesus

that whole "I only have one strong scum read" just looks like scum that's keeping their options open.

Not gonna force reads I'm not confident in.
I like jesus as scum so I'm pushing that. I don't really see the problem.

I am not mocking you, look at what Jesus is doing.

Btw Jesus I don’t think Nom is scum. The points they are making are different to Eyes, who is using the whole ‘everyone must act completely logically at all times’ approach.

The problem is that I feel you're using the exact opposite logic though.

"He's constantly irrational, must be town".

One of my problems is that I also have reasons to be careful about Eyes but Jesus is just scummier overall.

here's a collection of quotes that just ping me, not detailed. I'm not good at cases but these are the posts that I read. What's in here summarizes what I said earlier

What about a crumb for a fake Miller claim down the line?

I don't get where you're going with this.

IMO, He put the word Gun in quotes for a reason

Montosh is 100% town.

Hmm no not a fan of Montosh here. Too serious a reaction and I think Nero has a fair point in reacting to that.

Also it only took Saudade 2 pages to blow up the game, nice.

I read this and thought I had scum pt access for a sec.

VOTE: HeWhoSwims

I'll try to make my question more answerable. Your first few posts were just fluff. This nis the first one that makes some meaning. Why is this scum indicative of HWS? And what's your current read on nomnomnomnomnomnom (to an eternity)?

Current read on nom is leaning scum.

Current read on nom is leaning scum.

Why?

I wasn't very fond of the HWS slot to begin with.

Current read on nom is leaning scum.

Why?

I wasn't very fond of the HWS slot to begin with.

That is an answer, but that doesn't answer my question. What has the either HeWhoSwims or nomnomnom done to make you think that they have a scum role?

Because right now I'm siding with them in that you're evasive.

I wouldn't say I'm being evasive, I think of it more like being speculative. Is there anything wrong with that?

I don't get it.

Would you be willing to just trust me?

Not really.

I just want to understand your vote.

What does it matter if you have me as scum.

VOTE: Eyes

Alright.

I don't think I vote montosh today. Not over Jesus, Eyes or RF.

A massive amount of superficial reasoning on Jesus without every really developing a sustained explanation for how his play fits a scum agenda. No reflection or change in stance toward Jesus when she moves off.

[Kirari Momobami]

Part 2 -- Midgame to end of page 1 of iso

lol

VOTE: RedFlavor

Easy bus

I'm gonna guess there's a serial killer this game given the flip.

Not an unreasonable inference at this point actually and one of the better points for nom

The SK would make sense to give to scums having commuters I guess?

This is a weird setup man lol

Agreed, but scum commuters with no scum investigative structure I guess is...? especially vs. half BP vigs? I guess this doesn't really think very critically about Niko's role which was on the stronger side.

I honestly wonder why scums/SK decided to kill eyes given the heavy push on him yesterday by the way. I find that honestly nonsensical.

I just don't see it.

I kinda already went off about this but I hate the "I just don't see it" posts which are littered throughout her iso which give her a chance to take no stance and basically just make a post that has the other person talk more while she doesn't really reflect on their agenda or their thought process at all. There's a lot of posts where she says "I just don't see it" and this post in particular feels like it contradicts a lot of what she later says.

#townslip time - do scum get told if there’s a traitor?

A Traitor is considered Normal on mafiascum.net, as long as it:

• - is Mafia-aligned
  - knows the identities of all of the Mafia team
  -
  identity is not known by the Mafia team, although they should know a Traitor exists
  
  - cannot be recruited to join the rest of the Mafia team, and (unless Bulletproof) is killed if shot
  - is endgamed if all other Mafia are dead
  - gives a "guilty" result to Cops, an "innocent" result to Gunsmiths, and a "Traitor" result to Role Cops

Going for the wiki quote instead of just explaining how the role works; i.e. making sure she's not perspective slipping on rolecard

I guess I don't have that much of an opposition for the Montosh wagon.

intent

Compare to:

I don't think I vote montosh today. Not over Jesus, Eyes or RF.

That she contradicts herself isn't the problem, the fact is that all of her comments about Montosh throughout the day are superficial and since she says so little about her reads in a structured manner it's hard to notice weird flips like this.

NEUTRAL shot

weird + scummy overreaction

VOTE: KK
I am not unvoting until he claims his role and information.

Bad push on someone that she never articulates a scum agenda for given the gamestate.

It's also a significant gain to do this for a SK because the conversation changes significantly and the way you hunt for scums changes significantly. It's not something you do with no reason. KK!SK has legitimate reasons to do this so I want to stop the paranoia and make him claim his information. It shouldn't be a problem given the massive advantage town has right now and it would mean we literally just win.

Right now the strongest piece of evidence you have is that you *feel* that there should be a SK in the game.

How about you claim something that justifies that feeling? Any reasoning at all. Anything.

Scum cop.
Weird nightkills.
The fact that 3 scums - 1 traitor would be hella weak.
It just makes more sense to have a configuration with a SK.

"3scums -1 traitor would be hella weak" sounds like scum complaining about the balance of their scumteam; also given the power of creature and redflavor's roles almost objectively untrue

the emphasis on the nightkills being "weird" also continues to bother me

VOTE: ofrhz
so much fucking idiocy

why do you scumread ofrhz again?

I'm done with the thread for a while

When she does this scummy overreaction, she has basically articulated no real reason to scumread ofrhz

Otter is lynchbait calling it now.

She has before this point basically offered no meaningful read of Otter so this just comes out of nowhere. Notice that about her reads; the majority of them seem like they're just pulled out of thin air

[Kirari Momobami]

Part 3:

nom iso page 3

I'd still like a list from you nom

A readslist?
I don't feel the need to do it but I guess I can do it later.

Here she agrees to do a readslist which she never produces and then backtracks and says she never intended to produce

I just think she's traitor not killing scum.

I was on RF's wagon and you guys insisted to get Montosh lynched without a proper case for it and you blame me?

"Whaah I can't be scum because it's not like scum is informed of people's alignments or anything! I wasn't even on a mislynch even though scum has literally been avoiding being on mislynches all game!"

I wasn't blaming anyone to be on that wagon for what it's worth, just that singling me out for things that happened is weird as fuck.

No one was singling her out for Montosh, she basically brought it up all on her own. In fact if you go back and look, Montosh's name is not even mentioned in the preceeding three pages LOL

I'd like to also say that you have pushed me both as a SK and a traitor even though these two roles would approach the game radically differently so I can say with confidence that yes, you are reaching and I have trouble discerning if you are a bad townie or a traitor if KK isn't lying.

This is incredibly bad faith since I basically just re-evaluated whether she was SK/traitor based on KK's claim, I never argued she was playing from a traitor perspective, I had her as traitor because of Alch's argument that Creature did not think HWS was same-alignment. So she's failing to actually engage with my read or understand my point of view, which is scummy in that it reflects how quickly she jumped to trying to shade me rather than understand my read.

y do u think u r not good @ this game?

The point was more that for me to come up with scum theatre like this I would need to be better than I already am.
I know my weaknesses and this is one of them.

Offtopic but I don't really think I am good honestly, although some people say I am.

Directly contradicts her later statements about her own scumrange and is therefore a caught lie

I'd like to also say that you have pushed me both as a SK and a traitor even though these two roles would approach the game radically differently so I can say with confidence that yes, you are reaching and I have trouble discerning if you are a bad townie or a traitor if KK isn't lying.

Can you say more about how the approaches would be different? There's a sort of independence to both, no?

You do not approach the two roles the same way at all. This is my experience from chat mafia so it might differ from a longer site like this but this is what I think about the two roles.

A traitor is not independant because they are still playing for a larger faction and they need to redirect the heat that are on their partners on themselves. I consider it like a half-jester role if that makes sense. Obviously your aim is not to get lynched but if you redirect attention on yourself instead of your groupscum partners, and if you manage to get a maximum of townies lynched before town lynches you for being a bad townie, then you've done your job.

In contrast as SK you do NOT want attention on yourself from either teams. SK is much harder to play than traitor because you need to carefully tone your actions between "too useful" and "not useful enough". If you go either way you risk losing the game because townies will consider you too scummy or scums will consider you unlynchable. You need to play a much tighter game and that's why people consider it a much harder role to play.

Obviously this is only theory and you'll have people trying to subvert expectations but these are two clear archetypes to look for and they're very different type of people to track for, which is why I give a lot of important to KK's claim being true.

A pointless "why me" wallpost that only reflects how little she has bothered to try to understand my read in good faith.

I like that with Kirari's explanation I can simultaneously be SK, traitor and groupscum lmao

When the core of my argument is that you're not town, this is in no way shape or form a contradiction. At no point in this game have you approached the game from a town mindset.

I like that with Kirari's explanation I can simultaneously be SK, traitor and groupscum lmao

all I know is that you ain't town lol

Considering that the three roles approach the game differently I feel you're not even trying to state a case on me

Indeed, she has never tried to actually understand my case in a meaningful way. She always goes immediately to deflection and discrediting to push the read off. That she doesn't understand *I never actually cased her* reflects the extent to which she is playing survivalistically.

Alternatively you could not hammer and follow me on Of.

I feel like your stated reasons for wanting me lynched are pretty ... weak compared to how much conviction you have in me flipping scum.

Who else do you scumread?

I like Kirari for a traitor here just because of the atrocious analysis and lies she brought up, gives me a pretty typical bad townie traitor vibe.

Again, obviously I'm town so I know it's wrong -- but this is wrong in a scummy, not a townie way. She argues I'm traitor specifically... why? Why would she make this argument? If she thinks I'm scum, why would she not think I'm groupscum? This feels like she is trying to respond to my accusations in kind, again, without, actually understanding why I am accusing her of being traitor and not groupscum for most of this day.

@Kirari you seriously think Otter is town and that I'm scum?

A random question given I have been saying she's scum for days and literally just said Otter might be town.

We are not lynching Vork or me today for that matter.

WTF? Where did this come from? This is the 7th time you've even said Vork's name this game and at no point have you actually given an opinion on his alignment.

By the way that's now two people that have asked you for a reads list a total of three times, now four, which you still have failed to produce.

But suddenly Vork is someone we're "not lynching" who you've basically had no opinion on the entire game?

I am not going to let you redirect town on lynches at will with one day on the clock, are you insane?
You're trying to cause discord throughout the town and lead to bad lynches. You're asking for reads simply so you can gauge your best chance at a mislynch going through. I read you like a book, don't even pretend you're trying to do anything else.

Again, the resistance to the Of wagon is unreal.

A bizarre, non-townie, over-confident read on someone that she has gone the ENTIRE GAME without reading.

I'd like to also note that the Of wagon has crazy levels of opposition with literally 0 arguments against her lynch.

No there are arguments against my lynch?

DeasVail gave his arguments, Kirari provided a meta-based one, that's just off the top of my head

There is an inexplicable amount of resistance to your lynch according to the amount of people defending you is what I am saying.

People have argued for and against otter WAYYYY more than what they've done with you.

"Why aren't people joining on ofrhz when I have never made a remotely compelling argument for her to be scum?"

It's fun that Kirari is trying her hardest to try and decredibilize me whenever I talk about an Of wagon and lynch, and tries to do so by calling my slot a bunch of different scum flavors and is now trying to redirect the heat on me with literally one day on the clock.

If you don't want to believe in my push, just look at how she reacts to my push and perhaps you'll get a clue at what's going on here.

lol lynch it

[Kirari Momobami]

what if nom spends 99% of noms posts on setup spec not because nom is antitown but because nom comes from chatroom mafia

She's not spending 99% of her time on setup spec, she's spending 50% of her time choosing one tunnel at a time and the other 50% on setup spec, while avoiding talking about 60% of the people in the game

[Kirari Momobami]

Remind me your case for Of town again?

She looks outside her scum range, if you can produce a scum game that looks like this I'm happy to look at it

[Kirari Momobami]

what if nom spends 99% of noms posts on setup spec not because nom is antitown but because nom comes from chatroom mafia

She's not spending 99% of her time on setup spec, she's spending 50% of her time choosing one tunnel at a time and the other 50% on setup spec, while avoiding talking about 60% of the people in the game

SCUM OVERREACTIOn
SCUM OVERREACTIOn
SCUM OVERREACTIOn
SCUM OVERREACTIOn
SCUM OVERREACTIOn
SCUM OVERREACTIOn
SCUM OVERREACTIOn

to anything I say.

So yeah, I don't really want to spend my time around a chaotic element. You will not get a readslist from me today. Get a grip.

"I'm going to be anti-town and not say my reads on half the player list in a structured way because I have been accused of overreacting"

Well at least you're consistent

[Kirari Momobami]

is everything I say a scummy overreaction to you or do you simply not get that I act like this in literally all of my games?

No, I think in your towngames you're more shitposty and seem to be more consistently having a good time, I think you slightly dislike playing scum and are more reactionary as a result

[Kirari Momobami]

Also Kirari there are some things you’ve mentioned about nom that I want to consider but I’m not as convinced by things such as “scummy overreaction” stuff.

I also know I asked before, and I may have missed your response to it, but what does nom do as town that is different from what they have done here.

You really shouldn't ignore scummy overreactions, they're pretty clutch to tonereads

Town nom is more playful and more excited to townblock, something she has done in this game only in a forced and unnatural manner

Like ask yourself, given we have been asking her for a reads list, who does she townread in this game--like just townread? She had 3 townreads in her first day in the game, one of which was me lol. Since then...? She only argued Otter was town because I was pushing the slot which is probably the most inorganic way to townread someone there is

[Kirari Momobami]

lets lynch pop.

THEY

are prob scum.

The "I always hard deepwolf as scum!" was kinda needlessly wifomy but I still don't think she hard busses Red in this gamestate with the scum investigative dead and no outed town investigative

[Kirari Momobami]

I think listening to Kirari reduces chances of town closing this game for the amount of headless chicken syndrome she displayed today.

I've been certain you're scum all day, and Otter I was unsure of but didn't have another better lead. Asking people's reads on Vork after Otter made the weird "traitor" comment is not "headless chicken" syndrome but thanks for another weak attempt at discrediting

[Kirari Momobami]

I mean, Kirari could just be scum here.

What's interesting here is earlier this dayphase you were arguing nom was likely scum. What happened to that read?

is lyncher normal

What's up with you pops?

[Kirari Momobami]

Number of posts is not a good meta argument.
Is that really your entire case on Of, as opposed to the "look at town crumble" behavior she's had?

I felt like I was mindmelding with her early game and her observations about Montosh as a consequence of RedFlavor's alignment flip were relatively town indicative.

Also that I can refute your entire case by "postcount" just reinforces that you have been complaining about ofrhz without really giving me anything that doesn't require an incredibly lazy reason to disbelieve.

[Kirari Momobami]

You are obviously trying to find a good case on anyone that isn't Otter

[Kirari Momobami]

Do me a favor and read this game and tell me if I actually had a good time there: viewtopic.php?f=84&t=79835

Compared to this game, your early game there is actually quite relaxed -- jokey image macros, claim shenanigans (which again was RVS, but given you yourself do claim shenanigans it's weird that you would start this game focusing on a 'motion detector' claim)

[Kirari Momobami]

Nom has pretty consistently townread me

You mean since the Red flip? I don't believe she did so earlier, but yes this is one townread good catch

[Kirari Momobami]

Sure I'm down for that

Why did you switch from "I'm sheeping Kirari" to "sure I can lynch Kirari tomorrow" as soon as I started hard pushing nom?

[Kirari Momobami]

Then give a non-shit argument about ofrhz

My read rate on her is like, barely above 60%, but I still see 0 reason to see her as scum in this particular game and several mediocre-to-good reasons to see her as town including general activity and engagement (post rate), reactions to wagons on scum (Redflavor wagon d1), and ability to solve for town for compelling reasons (Montosh read in response to RF).

[Kirari Momobami]

I don't know that Nero Cain will actually live to LyLo to hold me to it.

Why do you think Nero would be dead before lylo?

[Kirari Momobami]

that doesn't preclude you as scum.

Sure but given there's the possibility of a wagon on her and there's not currently a wagon on me I'm surprised that you never really seemed to engage with a push on her and instead shifted to shading the person pushing a wagon on her

[Kirari Momobami]

Don't you realize that she's literally letting us hit each other?

I mean she only logs on like once every 2 days but that has nothing to do with her alignment. And given that's the case, it's really surprising she got into this game enough to break 100 posts when I have not seen that from her scumgame in recent memory

[Kirari Momobami]

Another example is her having the conviction that I could be scum when you mentioned it and asked her about it, yet never voting me anyway ever, and instead sitting on Otter who I believe was the attempted lynch for scum today.

I mean does she strike you as the type to lead a fresh lynch? She'll push against a lynch on a townread ala Red, but one of the things I like about her towngame is that she's actually willing to sheep people. Like you're simultaneously complaining that no one ever just joins with you on a lynch, while trying to lynch one of the people in a game that will actually support a persons he's townreading in a lynch even if she has other reads.

[Kirari Momobami]

I legit only think her activity peaks was to defend herself from my accusations and then asking a few blanket questions.

fair but her alignment has been a major point of consideration for a while

additionally, she is very often pushed for mislynches for the exact same reasons you are currently pushing her which makes me additionally skeptical of pushes on her when I think she has even lightly townspewed herself out of her scum range

[Kirari Momobami]

Why do you think that is?

Well, I have one theory, but I don't think it's one you will favor

[Kirari Momobami]

I believe she flips scums and that we possible look very dumb for screaming at each other for the last few pages rofl

I mean I don't feel like we're screaming that much, I've been enjoying this tete-a-tete

[Kirari Momobami]

I think he's at l-2 since I voted nom

Why does your question sound weird?

[Kirari Momobami]

What're your reads rn Jesus?

[Kirari Momobami]

Of those on my wagon at L-1, Kirari and DV have been pushing me the hardest, and continue to do so. I still think DV is less likely to be groupscum based on voting patterns, and even less likely to be traitor based on play. @DV this is why my read on you is stagnant, and why I'm not obsessing over you--sorry you feel ignored but I just think lynching elsewhere is more likely to hit scum!

Pops and Nero I've been townreading for a while now, although Nero really pulling for the Montosh lynch and then falling in line on my wagon fairly quietly is pretty concerning. Pops I don't think flops on and off my wagon like she did as scum.

Still no idea what Vork is doing this game but I don't think is groupscum and not interested in pushing there right now.

So I guess my order of preference, if not ofrhz, is Kirari>{DV/Nero}>Vorkuta>Pops

A) "continue to do so"...I moved off you and hard pushed nom... so this is doing a lot to help my concerns with your disengagement 0.o

B) Let me check Nero's vote but uh... Did he "fall in line"?

C) If you don't know what Vork is doing why do you think he isn't groupscum?

[Kirari Momobami]

VOTE: otter

now you are l-1 and can claim.

oh, that's right!

VOTE: pops

Deas is really starting to look like fence-sitting scum

This is Nero "falling in line" on you?

[Kirari Momobami]

nomnomnom do you have enough merry go round gifs for me to unvote cause I like 2588?

What do you like about 2588 other than having you at the end of the lynch order? Since to me it looks like he's misrepresenting both the front and back of the people in his lynch order lol

[Kirari Momobami]

if you want me to lynch based on cases and scumreads and not mechanical bullshit

Still don't get why if you like cases your response to my case on nom was to call me a lyncher

[Kirari Momobami]

if you aren't hammered yet.

There was just a vote count and he's now at l-4... why do you seem so disengaged this dayphase?

[Kirari Momobami]

Yeah KK not fullclaiming is still distracting, I don't know it makes him scum but it's something we absolutely sort out tomorrow in massclaim.

Was your nom read just a passing fad or something? Also I guess I wasn't sure how serious your pops scumread was, for some reason you presented it in kinda a jokey manner.

[Kirari Momobami]

Do you think town nom declares Vork and Otter both town despite having no read on either the whole game just because I pushed them?

[Kirari Momobami]

So nom is a nulltown for you now then or...?

[Kirari Momobami]

anyways putting my money where my mouth is but prob gonna push Nom tomorrow (kinda listening to pops)

VOTE: montosh

lets lynch pop.

THEY

are prob scum.

I kinda don't understand how you switched from following pops yesterday to having pops as a top scumread today. Obviously you can change your read but why? Just the joking about what she would or wouldn't do as scum?

[Kirari Momobami]

True, but 2500 is before 2511, I was kinda asking what led you into the read as of 2500

[Kirari Momobami]

b/c 2500 is a joke post lightly ribbing him for not wanting to be called they hence why they is bolded. Why are things so hard for you to understand?

I honestly did not even get that it was a joke about the pronoun... okay. I guess your reads feel like you're playing bumper cars kinda going here then going there. Doesn't make you scum but it does help me think through your thought process since if you're seeing something I'm missing I'd like to see it. Given most of my townread on you is from you having 'that town nero feel' it kinda surprised me that you seemed to be stepping back this dayphase. I still think you're town.

[Kirari Momobami]

Both RedFlavor and Vorkuta have been early on the Creature wagon and not on Niko, so I don't think they're scum with Creature.

If there's scum on the Creature wagon, wouldn't they be more likely to be earlier on it? Red and vork were votes 2 and 3, not putting creature in any real danger. The second wave was Kop(Niko), Nero, Roster, Jesus. I just don't see scum doing that when Creature is not even obviously the lynch.

Now, Roster immediately unvotes, as does Red after Alchemist joins. So I'm still good with Red as scum here. Roster is unclear. I'm good with Alchemist and Nero as town, and leaning town on Jesus.

The funny thing is I think Alch pointed to this as a potential reason to TR otter, but I distinctly remember disliking this post when it was made in real time. At the time it felt like warrantless presuppositions, and now I'm worried it was TMI, but there's definitely a chance that Otter just correctly sorted the wagon? idk, Otter is a wagon it's very easy to second guess myself on because there's arguments to be made either way. He could still flip scum if we really went off the deep end with traitor spec

[Kirari Momobami]

I'm actually right outside ur window, watchin u type

[Kirari Momobami]

8 hours left, people.
I seriously advise to steer back on Of since they're trying to get a last minute lynch with Kirari.

Even though she could have hammered otter ages ago

Again the accusations you're making don't actually reflect the circumstance of the game

Despite being the only counterwagon to otter she didn't hammer him for a full day even after she said she was going to sheep me

so how is opportunism the logic you want to push here?

[Kirari Momobami]

Town is more likely to create resistance because they think someone is town than because scum is openly defending a scumbuddy when there are 2 scum dead. You saying "resistance" makes ofrhz scum is saying that anyone who townreads anyone else while they're being wagoned is prorucing "resistance". It's not an actually informative concept. By that dame logic nomnom is confscum because no one is arguing she's town but people aren't joining me on her. By the same logic you're scum because you were at l1 and not hammered. "Resistance" doesn't actually mean anything.

[Kirari Momobami]

Or we're both town and ofrhz has figured out my reads are at least decent.

Besides, no one needs to fan the nom vs. Kirari flames... Our love will transcend the bonds of this game. :3

[Kirari Momobami]

Otter have you considered that nom is just sitting on your wagon (ofrhz) expecting you to do all the work while you're at l2 so she can keep her hands more or less clean?

Why don't you think you're the one being warlocked?

[Kirari Momobami]

Well this is almost the last I can be on before deadline. Are you just not joining on nom pops or what?

[Kirari Momobami]

If there's a good chance of nom I will stay on her. If we're choosing between otter and ofhrz then I'm going back to otter.

[Kirari Momobami]

Between vt nom vt otter and vt jesus I think there's already a high probability of scum in vt claims.

Like there has to be town power somewhere.

I'll be honest I thought she was gonna fakeclaim tpr here so this doesn't make me more confident

[Kirari Momobami]

I mean she would have to claim vt eventually in one scum game but yeah it's a bit surprising with only vt claims so far this game.

[Kirari Momobami]

Do I really come off as a "LOL FAKECLAIMZ!!1!" player that much?

You literally pulled an entire pt out of your ass in your last scum game so.. yes, yes you do

[Kirari Momobami]

I'm charismatic as fuck

[Kirari Momobami]

Vork can go idgaf, if otter is town then dv/vork prob has scum

[Kirari Momobami]

I almost wanna vote jesus, he's definitely the least whelming vt claim rn

But I don't want to break off pressure from nom even though her response to the wagon is not awful

[Kirari Momobami]

claim nom

Third time thos dayphase nero has missed things :/


Still think you're town but get your head in the game dude

[Kirari Momobami]

I'm basically unable to post again from now until deadline.

Maybe very briefly for a hammer in almost exactly 2 hours but can't guarantee.

Nom's response to pressure has been decent. I still dislike her random townreads on vork and otter because I think as scum she likes to create unexplained and random townreads on people she wants in lylo. Nero thinks her reasoning there is fine and I strongly disagree.

Otter I moved off largely because the traitor thing, and his engagement after the pressure moved off him hasn't been that bad.

If this has been a bunch of tvts then jesus has been doing jack shit to break any of them up.

Vork could easily flip scum but he's also unclaimed so risky to do another claim when we already have 3 vts claimed.

Not sure what we do here tbh

[Kirari Momobami]

VOTE: jesus

Fuck it, yolo

I'm logging off gl

[Kirari Momobami]

Damn shouldn't have choked on nom, my bad Jesus.

I thought about it two hours later and realized I was a dumbass, just had a moment of doubt after the claim and the reaction to pressure. But I should have known the read was still right.

Nice shot anyway.

So...

Claim order of

KK-->Vork-->DV-->NC-->KM?

I can be popcorned anytime, that's just my personal preference for order.

[Kirari Momobami]

Oh yeah, ofrhz can claim whenever

[Kirari Momobami]

Vork is online so I will be disappointed if he doesn't claim soon

[Kirari Momobami]

The only game that matters is the one I'm in though :3 :3 :3

[Kirari Momobami]

KK can I say that your new choice in avi is pretty dope

[Kirari Momobami]

Cool what you got for us nero boiiii?

[Kirari Momobami]

Claimed

LuckyOtter - VT
Nero Cain - VT
ofrhz - VT
Vorkuta - VT
BodhiSmith13DeasVail - VT
Kirari Momobami - VT

Kublai Khan - Vig thing

Flipped

Creature, Mafia Activated Night 1-4 Commuter, killed Night 1.
RedFlavor, Mafia Activated Night 1-4 Commuter/Night 1-2 Cop, lynched Day 2
HeWhoSwimsnomnomnom, Mafia Commuter Enabler Traitor, killed Night 4.

KopNiko, Town Odd-Night Bulletproof Even-Night Vigilante, lynched Day 1.
Saudade Lil Uzi Vert popsofctown, Town Universal Backup -> Town Odd-Night Bulletproof Even-Night Vigilante, killed Night 4.


pisskop, Vanilla Townie, killed Night 1.
EvilDeaniusEyes without a face, Vanilla Townie, killed Night 2.
Montosh, Vanilla Townie, lynched Day 3.
rosterfoster, Vanilla Townie, killed Night 3.
Alchemist21, Vanilla Townie, killed Night 3.
Jesus Louisus, Vanilla Townie, lynched Day 4.

So this looks like a quasi mountainous. I'm fairly confident that
Even vig + UB
vs.
Commuter, commuter, traitor + SK

is pretty much never ever going to pass NRG

so I think we can safely call KK an IC-vig based on setup spec/balance

[Kirari Momobami]

Second IC status
ofrhz - outside scumrange, also spewed town very hard by nomnom

Pool of 4
Nero Cain - VT -- leans town off meta?

LuckyOtter - VT -- still liked the creature stuff for s/s but response to pressure was at least mildly townie yesterday
Vorkuta - VT -- the creature push day 1 was kinda weird for s/s but other that this is easily within vork's scumrange and actually kinda against his town meta
DV - VT -- kinda a bad game for DV if LO is town

[Kirari Momobami]

I think if we can agree on a 3-person lynch pool then this game is on autopilot win?

Obviously harder with nero not agreeing with me being town but other than that, I think the likelihood we win today or tonight should be 66%

[Kirari Momobami]

Vork today, KK shoots out of otter and DV?

Does anyone like Nero for scum here? And if anyone things nom gambits on an ofrhz tunnel as a non-recruitable traitor I'll hear it out but I think I'm at a town-lock group of 3 now (me-KK-ofrhz)

[Kirari Momobami]

KK, LO, and Vork want to snapshot your thoughts on Nero vs Vork for the scenario where the game is still going tomorrow?

[Kirari Momobami]

*Nero vs DV

[Kirari Momobami]

Does dv > nero mean dv gets lynched first?

[Kirari Momobami]

Goddess of the ice cream, how do you feel about Jesus Cain?

[Kirari Momobami]

Who gave Kirari full control of the game state and why are we being coralled?

This is actually a good post!

J/w but why is it a good post when no one seems to want to keep playing this game, I just want to close out the win and it's a lot easier to do that with a vetted townblock of 4 rather than 3

[Kirari Momobami]

If that townblock is correct, then the Niko and Montosh wagons were all town lolllll

I've been certain niko included at most 1 scum for a long time lol

[Kirari Momobami]

I think reading to towncase yourself after being propsed as a vig shot isn't intrinsically scummy

It would help if he was saying he was towncasing himself tho, ya

[Kirari Momobami]

Not really getting why kirari is suspicious of me other than a kinda delayed omgus

LOL

If me proposing you for the 4th townblock is "suspicious" of you I wonder what a fos would look like?

I want to solve the game and if the entire town agrees you are town the game is solved. If there is a chance you are scum then the game is not solved. We functionally have 3 lynches, a poe of 4, so we need one townread for this game to be over.

For that reason I am asking for any suspicions of you are discussed because if no one scumreads you or sees you as being the lynch before vork then this game is autopilot win

[Kirari Momobami]

Gollum is nero

[Kirari Momobami]

VOTE: Nero Cain this has won me a game before so it's worth a shot

but you were scum so you are claiming scum?

Lol this is a really funny post given the talk about 'signaling' on the part of the traitor

Ice cream goddess there's no way hws tries to "signal" he's scum to nero in a way only he would get right?

[Kirari Momobami]

VOTE: Nero Cain this has won me a game before so it's worth a shot

but you were scum so you are claiming scum?

Lol this is a really funny post given the talk about 'signaling' on the part of the traitor

Ice cream goddess there's no way hws tries to "signal" he's scum to nero in a way only he would get right?

This is just tinfoil otter?

[Kirari Momobami]

But the signaling would just come from hws, and I wouldn't expect Nero to respond to it. If this was the signal I don't think Nero would be all 'are you signaling me, buddy? Nudge nudge wink wink'

That said I haven't come up with any better ideas of where there might be any signaling.

I mean, HWS would have known scum were informed of a traitor, and then he made no response to Nero's comment here did he? I also think 532 is super awkward lol

I'm not sure Nero is scum, I think his exchange with Montosh early irt Creature is more likely to come from town, but his activity dropping off a cliff these last two days makes me want to be really sure if he's town, and HWS's weird attitude toward the slot is making me second guess just a little bit. His votes also slightly fit the town pattern more than the scum pattern of the game.

Also thinking about Alch's towncase argument on LO irt to LO-->RF not being S/S, and his thought that LO/DV could plausibly be T/T. Just thinking here.

You townread Nero right? Can you expand on what makes you feel confident on Nero town?

[Kirari Momobami]

I mostly just want to have a clear towncase on Nero independently based on his own play so that I can confidently ignore whatever noise HWS spewed out.

[Kirari Momobami]

Both RedFlavor and Vorkuta have been early on the Creature wagon and not on Niko, so I don't think they're scum with Creature.

If there's scum on the Creature wagon, wouldn't they be more likely to be earlier on it? Red and vork were votes 2 and 3, not putting creature in any real danger. The second wave was Kop(Niko), Nero, Roster, Jesus. I just don't see scum doing that when Creature is not even obviously the lynch.

Now, Roster immediately unvotes, as does Red after Alchemist joins. So I'm still good with Red as scum here. Roster is unclear. I'm good with Alchemist and Nero as town, and leaning town on Jesus.

This was the basis of Alch's towncase on Otter, I remember not actually liking this post at the time but I can't remember why I didn't like it anymore lol

[Kirari Momobami]

Literally all I care about is whether it is correct or incorrect to townlock Nero. I think it's funny that you're complaining about me micromanaging but then also complaining that I'm not saving you

I don't think attacking the solved townblock is protown rn tho

[Kirari Momobami]

I was kinda wondering whether it's actually correct to lynch/shoot vork before otter but there doesn't seem to be a lot of interest there, I mostly just think that vork has been playing a little bit more like last scum than town one lynch from winning. But I did like him trying to townlock otter, whereas you still seem kinda ok lynching anything and now you're circling back to the townblock rather than finding one more town out of the pool of 4.

[Kirari Momobami]

Im mason

Why in the ever loving fuck would you claim that? just gonna let scum nk you and if they don't we'll just pl you if we haven't game solved yet.

Jesus show us the mafia please.

rosterfoster
ofrhz
BodhiSmith13
Creature

I have a Townlean on Nero

GET. OFF. OF. ME. *pushes*

Are we like ending RVS now? Or is this a joke post of yours?

if not, why do you believe my 78 was serious?

Like I look at some stuff in nero's iso and am like, ehh could go either way

But like iso 27-31 I look at and am like, ehh this kinda doesn't look like s/s stuff...

And if iso 27-31 in nero's iso actually is readable as town, then the game is solved. If those posts are not correctly town indicative then we risk throwing this game to Nero.

If Nero is readable as town then we expunge everything outside the townblock and win, with preference for the actual scum only an issue for style points

[Kirari Momobami]

Eh, I’ve been at L-1 for a while(?) now. I forget how long. I keep waking up expecting to be lynched!

Let’s face it, I’m not surviving today. But if the townblock is wrong, that’s a problem! Not one that I expect to be solved today, but I’m having doubts about Otter based on how they’ve played today and you honestly are the most concerning to me out of everyone else.

Well I want the style points for lynching scum which is easier if vork spews homself town a bit more

But he keeps seeming out of sync which I'm thinking about

[Kirari Momobami]

I actually want vork to respond to that last post LO made...

Idk why you think I'm in a rush to lynch you if you and otter somehow is t/t I want to make sure the solve of vork over nero is correct

[Kirari Momobami]

It's also jarring that vork's content today is somehow better than Nero's.

Like if we were going just off today, I'd say Nero goes since everyone else seems more engaged. But Nero's early game is the hardest to see as s/s out of every candidate.

Vork's content overall is the most underwhelming but his content today is decently protown but I also want him to address inconsistencies.

Your content seems pretty wolfy through most of the game if Otter is town, but maybe you were just right?

Otter seemed pretty scummy until his push on red and his content as seemed better the longer the game goes.

[Kirari Momobami]

There's always the thought that I need to consider ofrhz/nom was s/s theater which is why your comment is both good and dumb at the same time.

Saying nom needed to play the long game is one thing, but iirc she was pushing ofrhz somewhat before I started hard pushing her. Additionally ofrhz is slightly outside her comfortable scumrange and I don't think her reaction to the red wagon on day 1 is likely to come from her as scum. So you consider the possibility then evaluate all evidence. If she's scum this game, she's dramatically expanded her scumrange, which is not something that is easy to play around when we have no mech investigatives in the game at all.

For you, there's also your posts about redflavor earlier, which make it easier to reconsider your alignment, and the fact that vork and nero were both posting heavily in cats but have been basically ignoring this game, which if they're both town is annoying.

Since you keep insisting that you and dv die, sure, whatever. But if you're both town then your play right now is super gross.

[Kirari Momobami]

Irt to nom there's two things to know:

She likes big lulzy plays
She plays really wolfy

So yes, bussing ofrhz for two days straight would be a big lulzy play.

But it also means she never advanced a scum agenda at all for two days straight, which doesn't really match my understanding of her play.

If the idea was "ofrhz can't kill me because that would implicate her..." ehhhhh I don't think a traitor without a pt ever plays like that.

So while nom is probably the first person I would think of as being capable of bussing her last group scum as traitor, I still don't actually think that's the play she made this game.

[Kirari Momobami]

VOTE: Nero Cain this has won me a game before so it's worth a shot

but you were scum so you are claiming scum?

Lol this is a really funny post given the talk about 'signaling' on the part of the traitor

Ice cream goddess there's no way hws tries to "signal" he's scum to nero in a way only he would get right?

I’ll try to towncase Nero tonight

This is a prodge

Can I get this before hammer or you ok accepting dv/otter?

[Kirari Momobami]

Gross is saying you're ok accepting a vig shot + lynch on you and dv while also arguing there may be more to think of in this game. I am playing to be in a good position to read nero and vork tomorrow if you do both flip green, which I kinda think you might and I can see happening for dv too. It's concerning that the two players spewing are the two that will die which will leave me with vork and nero, neithet of which has said hardly anything today. I wanted those slots to spew more and you two have started shading me because I haven't been done with the day yet.

[Kirari Momobami]

Nero and vork, any thoughts on each other's slots after cats?

[Kirari Momobami]

Idk, get vork to respond to 2956?

[Kirari Momobami]

A) respond to 2956

B) why does it seem like you kinda don't care about this game

C) are you feeling good enough about scum being in dv/otter to end day as things stand?

[Kirari Momobami]

Sure but in trying to solve this game it does mean you are currently cliser to your scum meta than your town meta

@vork

[Kirari Momobami]

Well down to 21 hours. Ultimately it's kk's shot. I don't feel like reversing course on the solve is much better but I still would have liked to see the developed towncase on Nero particularly given how meh his play has been today. Obviously we don't NL tho. I guess I will intent within 15 hours on DV, maybe sooner if I have some time to reread his iso tonight properly.

[Kirari Momobami]

I don't feel like your play has been exactly stellar either. Like currently you are being loud and trying to position yourself as town leader

So I take this to mean you still have 0 thoughts about vork from the game you just finished?

[Kirari Momobami]

Doesn't need to be super deep, how about some bullet points?

[Kirari Momobami]

Yeah good points

I kinda... think it just ends with dv lynch?

Him coming at me reminds me of how some scum play a lost endgame

Only concern is maybe observer effect on vork + him being last scum vs having a buddy left? We can discuss more tomorrow tho I guess.

I'll reread dv in a few hours otherwise I guess I'm ok with vork hammering

[Kirari Momobami]

Well I'm curious; not sure why I'd hate you

Do you think we maximize style points with an otter lynch?

[Kirari Momobami]

I think I'm gonna hammer DV in 2 hours, if you wanna argue otter is max style now's the time!

[Kirari Momobami]

I have no idea but I am on the road tomorrow and I'm not inclined to count on vork for a hammer

Anything else for today then?

[Kirari Momobami]

VOTE: dv

[Kirari Momobami]

GG!

[Kirari Momobami]

I think this setup needed a town multitasking one-shot motion detector, one-shot babysitter

[Kirari Momobami]

I don't think the dead PT release went through correctly

[Kirari Momobami]

LOL Alch <3

Thanks NK15 it's working now

[Kirari Momobami]

Surprise mountainous setups are fun

This is the first one I’ve won though I think! Probably because both vigs did well and kirari didn’t die right away lol

Definitely some solid shooting from our vigs