Newbie 2001 | Game Over

[Tuxedo Mask]

VOTE: Micc
I read all of Newbie 1999 for nothing, so now he's gotta pay.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Rules Basics

• Day 1: up to 10 days, Day 2+ up to 7-days, Night: 48 hours.

wait what

each day phase is 10 days long

No?

[Tuxedo Mask]

Vote counts are posted periodically by the moderator.

[Tuxedo Mask]

ok then

i might just shitpost day 1 until actual content comes up

We can make content. What hidden role game experience do you have?

[Tuxedo Mask]

ok then

i might just shitpost day 1 until actual content comes up

We can make content. What hidden role game experience do you have?

Ive played in 22 games across two forums

I have won four

i dont consider myself a bad player i just get incredibly unlucky

That's fair, are they similar to this forum?

Do you not like RVS (Random Voting Stage) or do you not know about it?

[Tuxedo Mask]

Spoiler:

ok then

i might just shitpost day 1 until actual content comes up

We can make content. What hidden role game experience do you have?

Ive played in 22 games across two forums

I have won four

i dont consider myself a bad player i just get incredibly unlucky

That's fair, are they similar to this forum?

Do you not like RVS (Random Voting Stage) or do you not know about it?

One's formatted like this one (town of salem forums) and one's formatted completly different (mafia universe)

rvs is fun but i havent done it in a 9er because i assume that most noobs will want to get straight to the point instead of joking around to try and earn towncred early

I'm a little confused, how does not participating in RVS get us 'to the point' faster? Or am I misunderstanding your point here? Are you afraid that some new player will drop the hammer accidentally on an RVS wagon?
VOTE: fwogcarf

[Tuxedo Mask]

VOTE: fwogcarf

what's the purpose of this vote?

Because what they say and what they do feels inconsistent. I'm not following how on one what they want to goof off and joke around, but on the other hand feel other players will want to be serious and use that as a reason to not RVS.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Reading back I don't think I actually answered your question. To try again, the purpose of my vote was to see how they would react. Since they were having an active conversation with me, I knew they would at least respond. Of course, they ignored the vote. As for why I answered in my previous attempt at explaining.

[Tuxedo Mask]

gonna sleep

when i wake up there better be 4 votes on me

[Tuxedo Mask]

Spoiler: Questions for me

VOTE: fwogcarf

what's the purpose of this vote?

Because what they say and what they do feels inconsistent. I'm not following how on one what they want to goof off and joke around, but on the other hand feel other players will want to be serious and use that as a reason to not RVS.

What is inconsistent about this? fwogcarf wants to joke around, but thinks its likely that newer players won't be up for that. He proceeds to joke around and not RVS. What that says about him is up for debate, but I don't see how he has been inconsistent. Regardless, can you expand on why you think inconsistency is scummy in this instance?

Reading back I don't think I actually answered your question. To try again, the purpose of my vote was to see how they would react. Since they were having an active conversation with me, I knew they would at least respond. Of course, they ignored the vote. As for why I answered in my previous attempt at explaining.

How does his reaction affect your read?

Spoiler:

ok then

i might just shitpost day 1 until actual content comes up

We can make content. What hidden role game experience do you have?

Ive played in 22 games across two forums

I have won four

i dont consider myself a bad player i just get incredibly unlucky

That's fair, are they similar to this forum?

Do you not like RVS (Random Voting Stage) or do you not know about it?

One's formatted like this one (town of salem forums) and one's formatted completly different (mafia universe)

rvs is fun but i havent done it in a 9er because i assume that most noobs will want to get straight to the point instead of joking around to try and earn towncred early

I'm a little confused, how does not participating in RVS get us 'to the point' faster? Or am I misunderstanding your point here? Are you afraid that some new player will drop the hammer accidentally on an RVS wagon?
VOTE: fwogcarf

So firstly here, as I said I don't get how not voting (even randomly) gets use to a serious game faster. @JacksonVirgo's recent posts seem to imply I'm misreading based on different site metas, is that correct. Also if he's town, are you going to change your vote?

Spoiler:

ok then

i might just shitpost day 1 until actual content comes up

We can make content. What hidden role game experience do you have?

Ive played in 22 games across two forums

I have won four

i dont consider myself a bad player i just get incredibly unlucky

That's fair, are they similar to this forum?

Do you not like RVS (Random Voting Stage) or do you not know about it?

One's formatted like this one (town of salem forums) and one's formatted completly different (mafia universe)

rvs is fun but i havent done it in a 9er because i assume that most noobs will want to get straight to the point instead of joking around to try and earn towncred early

I'm a little confused, how does not participating in RVS get us 'to the point' faster? Or am I misunderstanding your point here? Are you afraid that some new player will drop the hammer accidentally on an RVS wagon?
VOTE: fwogcarf

in my experience playing mafia more often than not people playing in their first game will usually not joke around at the beginning. It doesn't matter what alignment they are, but they want to get their juices flowing early.

I have never seen a noob hammer an rvs vote before lol

we can still do rvs for the funzies

And here he says we can keep doing RVS but doesn't pick a target. It seems to be the worst sort of outcome, where his isn't joking to push the game forward and isn't doing anything serious to push the game over into serious mode. Again if this is a site to site difference thing that I'm misunderstanding, sorry that I'm dumb.

As for him ignoring the vote, it reads neutral to me. Comes off consistent with his goofy playstyle. I'd like to be clear, I'm not voting him because he makes jokes. I understand everyone plays this game differently and has their own way of playing their role. My problem is their talk of RVS versus Serious gameplay, and not participating in either. Especially when they say they like RVS. To me, that reads disingenuous.

P.S. accidentally used my spell checker on a few words in the quoted part, sorry about that.

[Tuxedo Mask]

VOTE: Tuxedo mask

I think his vote was pretty bad and the follow up attempts at explaining it aren't great. Of all the things to pick out from fwogcarf so far, I don't see how inconsistency can be the issue to focus on. fwogcarf was pretty clear the whole way that he was spend his time cracking jokes even if he suspected there'd be people on the playerlist who weren't up for that.

I also don't think Tuxedo's framing of his vote as a reaction test quite fits when the read he got off fwogcarf's reaction is neutral. I'd say players in general ignore RVS votes they get more often than giving any kind of reaction, so if Tuxedo's reaction test wasn't prepared for that, its not a very useful reaction test. And also since he's still got the vote there, was it really a reaction test at all?

Okay, let's try again.
fwogcarf has a goofy play style, that's fine. I read that as going no specific way or the other. Him ignoring my vote is consistent with that play style, IMO. So to me, it's neutral. I was hoping the conversation would evolve, as they say in #20 they're going to shit post till there is content. When I prod him for an RVS vote or two explain why he doesn't have one, he gives me the run-around. Saying he's all for it and not giving one, that to me reads inconsistent.

Though maybe I didn't put enough thought into getting ignored. I mean he's once again saying he'll wait for content but doesn't even acknowledge my vote onto him. That's a bit scummy.

As for my vote still being there, I can vote someone I think is acting scummy (even when no one else has acted) while simultaneously hope the vote sparks a reaction. My vote remaining there is because I'm happy with it, and have nowhere else to move it.

In a final attempt at making my POV absolutely clear, he has a jokey playstyle, so jokes to me are neutral. Outside of his playstyle, he mentions waiting for the game to get serious and have content while avoiding making content himself. And again, that's not the jokes, having a meme playstyle is just that a playstyle, but there is a disconnect between what they say and what they do.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Spoiler:

VOTE: Tuxedo mask

I think his vote was pretty bad and the follow up attempts at explaining it aren't great. Of all the things to pick out from fwogcarf so far, I don't see how inconsistency can be the issue to focus on. fwogcarf was pretty clear the whole way that he was spend his time cracking jokes even if he suspected there'd be people on the playerlist who weren't up for that.

I also don't think Tuxedo's framing of his vote as a reaction test quite fits when the read he got off fwogcarf's reaction is neutral. I'd say players in general ignore RVS votes they get more often than giving any kind of reaction, so if Tuxedo's reaction test wasn't prepared for that, its not a very useful reaction test. And also since he's still got the vote there, was it really a reaction test at all?

Okay, let's try again.
fwogcarf has a goofy play style, that's fine. I read that as going no specific way or the other. Him ignoring my vote is consistent with that play style, IMO. So to me, it's neutral. I was hoping the conversation would evolve, as they say in #20 they're going to shit post till there is content. When I prod him for an RVS vote or two explain why he doesn't have one, he gives me the run-around. Saying he's all for it and not giving one, that to me reads inconsistent.

Though maybe I didn't put enough thought into getting ignored. I mean he's once again saying he'll wait for content but doesn't even acknowledge my vote onto him. That's a bit scummy.

As for my vote still being there, I can vote someone I think is acting scummy (even when no one else has acted) while simultaneously hope the vote sparks a reaction. My vote remaining there is because I'm happy with it, and have nowhere else to move it.

In a final attempt at making my POV absolutely clear, he has a jokey playstyle, so jokes to me are neutral. Outside of his playstyle, he mentions waiting for the game to get serious and have content while avoiding making content himself. And again, that's not the jokes, having a meme playstyle is just that a playstyle, but there is a disconnect between what they say and what they do.

i thought your vote was rvs so it didnt deserve a reaction from me. if its serious though then usually i ask what the reason behind it is.

I can't read that as anything other than disingenuous. I cast an RVS vote (sorry Micc), then said to you we should start making content and began asking questions. I didn't like your answers, voted you, and continued asking questions. I don't see how you can mistake it for RVS.

But I don't wanna tunnel on you, so if other people can start posting that'd be great. I'm very bored in quarantine.

Man, I haven't played Mafia on here in years. It's nice to see some things don't change.

VOTE: Petrichorus

Gotta spread the Day 1 love around.

Aren't wagons considered more effective to move out of RVS?

Anyways for the tuxedo / fwogcarf interaction :

First of all, i really don't think it's two scums distanciating each other, because it looks like the don't want to do the same thing with the conversation, fwog just wants to talk about what tuxedo has asked him to talk about while tuxedo is trying to push the game in serious mode


And yeah, fwog is kind of contradictory with his apparent will of "getting into serious stage" but at the same time not doing much and kinda shitposting about what videos he's listening to

Like this.

And I like Petrichorus's intro.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Hi there, doing good, what are your current reads on the game?

town: fwogcarf, petrichorus, micc

null: everyone else

So, fwog / petri / micc are on the same level on townreads for you?

And personally, i don't really like micc's attitude in his post (i'm feeling like he isn't trying to gamesolve but rather cast some suspicion easily on peoples) but i'm waiting to see more content from him

This post is rubbing me the wrong way.
It reads to me like an awkward post from scum who don't know what to post, but feel like they need to post something that appears to be like contributing.
I don;t think its genuine to expect a layered townleans/reads order by page 3.

Non-RVS vote based on gut:

VOTE: Gyp

I'm liking Gyp so far. Does this feeling of fake contributing hold over to their other posts? And would you give this the same read?

Yeah, I just like Petri's and Micc's posts right now tonally.

But yeah I also agree we need more content from everyone

[Tuxedo Mask]

Thank you for the delightful praise. Looking at the balancing in this game, I'm wary of bringing down the hammer on Day 1. Wagoning to threaten a hammer and then glean information seems to be in the Scum's favour as the best that town will get is that a scum calls basic townie as it is statistically hard to disprove. The best outcome for scum is that a role gets called and is then a target, especially being as it is not in town's interest for their powered folk to either lie or call.

That said, it's my first game here and I'd love a run down of why you think that Wagoning is a good option day 1 here. I agree that it would draw the day to a close faster, which seems to be the point. My interpretation of your reaction was that you think others would like to expedite the first day, and that their actions to spread the vote around is counter intuitive to that end, but it does raise my suspicions that you seem to be pushing for wagoning.

First I'd like to clarify that a wagon does not equal a lynch. I am not advocating we quick lynch someone at random to end day 1. That would be bad.

For the rest of RVS into Wagon stuff, I think one of the SEs could better explain. From my minor experience and reading other games on this site, RVS going into a wagon helps spark pressure and discussion early. We can see how the targeted player or players respond to being focused and at a high vote count, we can see what players push the wagon and what players avoid it. It's not much to go on, but it's something. And could provide useful information on a reread in future days once some people have flipped.

Currently, we have a bit of stagnation, which has more to do with activity than anything but would probably help if votes weren't so spread around randomly. Especially since a few players have signaled reads without moving their votes.

[Tuxedo Mask]

To pick up on something Gyp addresses above, Fwog listing himself as town is suspicious and being defended by 72 is also suspicious. so VOTE: Fwogcarf

Fwog, I haven't played with you before, and it wouldn't be so odd if 72 hadn't come to def. I mean, everyone will outwardly say they're town, but you were asked for your read on other players and read yourself. That said, I'm glad you've done some soul-searching and introspection.

Let's talk about this. What makes Fwog listing himself as town so suspicious, especially if you admit everyone will say they're town? If it's suspicious for 72 to defend him, why is it not suspicious for Micc? If it is 72 that is being suspicious why is your vote on Fwogcarf?

[Tuxedo Mask]

Could you explain?

[Tuxedo Mask]

Oops, forgot.
VOTE: Petrichorus

Pedit:

I like asking questions, they help flesh out the other players in my mind. I think I've been doing that. Is there something I've missed, or have I completely missed your point. To be honest I feel I am trying game solve be interacting with people and attempting to establish groundwork.

[Tuxedo Mask]

When it comes to the 72/fwogcarf thing, I'd like to know what people are getting at in the 'defending' argument.

Is it suspicious for 72 to 'defend' a player on his own? Or do you think 72's defense is suspicious because you think fwogcarf is suspicious?

[Tuxedo Mask]

Oops, forgot.
VOTE: Petrichorus

Pedit:

I like asking questions, they help flesh out the other players in my mind. I think I've been doing that. Is there something I've missed, or have I completely missed your point. To be honest I feel I am trying game solve be interacting with people and attempting to establish groundwork.

What I'm trying to get at here as that you seem very on-edge. Asking questions is fine, it's a good way to help solve a game or get a conversation going. But with the rate you're going at with these along with overexplaining a decent amount of posts, it equals up to something that I don't see as townie.

Using multiple posts to try and move attention to one post is also not a great way to go about at things.

Okay, if it's off-putting I can try to slow down. I don't much like talking about myself and my actions in these games if not directly asked because I think that info is generally not helpful. But in this case, I will say, I generally get pretty easily obsessive, and being stuck in quarantine has only made this worse. So even while doing other things I have the ability to check this game anytime all day, leading to a mentality where I'm trying to squeeze blood from a stone.

If this is negatively impacting the game for others, I'm sorry.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Spoiler: Evidence On Petrichorus

To address wagoning. I suppose there is still some value in it as long as there is a credible threat of hammering behind it, so to that end nothing is off the table.

To pick up on something Gyp addresses above, Fwog listing himself as town is suspicious and being defended by 72 is also suspicious. so VOTE: Fwogcarf

Fwog, I haven't played with you before, and it wouldn't be so odd if 72 hadn't come to def. I mean, everyone will outwardly say they're town, but you were asked for your read on other players and read yourself. That said, I'm glad you've done some soul-searching and introspection.

Here directly calls Fwog listing himself as town suspicious.

Personally I feel that listing yourself in any reads if it is just generic alignment is redundant, but if that's the rough convention on here then so be it. I don't find that in itself suspicious, apologies if I was not clear enough before.

Immediately contradicts here

See above regarding listing and suspicions. My suspicions were peaked according to how I would usually think during a meat space game vis a vis this scenario.

To contract the events that have interested me:

Fwog - Reads Micc as town,
Gyp - Queries Fwog's Reading - highlighting Micc
72 - Immediately votes Gyp

I was voting for Fwog to put him at L-2 (Apologies if the formatting is incorrect) to see if there was more to the read and also to get a strong reaction regarding listing yourself as town, which i have got in spades. As such, shifting a vote to 72 to query this "Gut feeling" seems logical. I'd like to query 72 first however.


72offsuit, this is a strong reaction to a small query. Is this your playstyle or is there something in particular that you object to in the above?

JV, has 72's playstyle matched or differed from the two games you've played with them?

UNVOTE: fwogcarf

Says the vote was for pressure and reaction test. Calls it an immediate success, doesn't explain what it proved if anything. Then hops off the wagon while casting suspicion on another player (already being questions by others) without voting them. He also backed off this Fwog extremely fast, giving up at the first sign of resistance.

2. 72 wasn't defending me in that post, more he was actually focusing on the post content that was provided there. Gyp had stated that "fwog/petri/micc are on the same level of townreads as you?" Now whether or not he forgot that I posted that remains to be seen, but I do agree with his logic there.

well tbf, even if he isn't directly defending you, 72's post made the focus shift on another person, so the end result is the same as if he defended you

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Sheeping

3 - Regarding the vote for 72, I thought about this before just unvoting. I don't like to swing my vote around and while fwog had already been pressed on his read, I wasn't entirely satisfied with their response, thus the added pressure. At this point I might as well add a vote to 72 as he hasn't responded, but that will affect my appearance as kowtowing to loud voices, so I think if by midday tomorrow if he hasn't responded that will be way over 24 hours since last contributions and I'll happily throw that vote out.

Acknowledges their sheeping, and generally comes off very self-conscious about how they're viewed. Continues to soft push 72, without developing their read or questioning them.

Either way, as discussed, with no more content coming from 72, VOTE: 72offsuit

Finally, votes 72 for inactivity?

@Petrichorus how much experince do you have with forum mafia?

All in all, Petrichorus seems to be following whatever wagons look the easiest, and generally tries to slip by unnoticed. When their actions are called out they immediately backtrack, and look for a new angle. They also have a habit of being extremely nice and friendly (yay for non-toxic games) it's not really alignment idictive but it always tends to make me wary, especially combined with a player who seems preoccupied with how other players view them.

Aside from Petrichorus, on the 72 defends Fwog stuff. It all seems really reliant on associative reads. And being six pages into day one, I don't like that.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Spoiler: To answer 72s questions

Anyways for the tuxedo / fwogcarf interaction :

First of all, i really don't think it's two scums distanciating each other, because it looks like the don't want to do the same thing with the conversation, fwog just wants to talk about what tuxedo has asked him to talk about while tuxedo is trying to push the game in serious mode


And yeah, fwog is kind of contradictory with his apparent will of "getting into serious stage" but at the same time not doing much and kinda shitposting about what videos he's listening to

VOTE: Tuxedo mask

I think his vote was pretty bad and the follow up attempts at explaining it aren't great. Of all the things to pick out from fwogcarf so far, I don't see how inconsistency can be the issue to focus on. fwogcarf was pretty clear the whole way that he was spend his time cracking jokes even if he suspected there'd be people on the playerlist who weren't up for that.

I also don't think Tuxedo's framing of his vote as a reaction test quite fits when the read he got off fwogcarf's reaction is neutral. I'd say players in general ignore RVS votes they get more often than giving any kind of reaction, so if Tuxedo's reaction test wasn't prepared for that, its not a very useful reaction test. And also since he's still got the vote there, was it really a reaction test at all?

Could you explain how this is indicative of Tuxedo's alignement, all i see there is just that you show some fairly weak logic

Hi there, doing good, what are your current reads on the game?

Hi there, doing good, what are your current reads on the game?

town: fwogcarf, petrichorus, micc

null: everyone else

So, fwog / petri / micc are on the same level on townreads for you?

And personally, i don't really like micc's attitude in his post (i'm feeling like he isn't trying to gamesolve but rather cast some suspicion easily on peoples) but i'm waiting to see more content from him

These posts seem genuine, and relaxed, with a goal of learning and bridging gaps. I think a scum player had some good opportunities to jump in with me, Fwog, of Micc during all of this. Instead, they took a more nuanced and measured approach and tried to learn more about the situation. It seems very town to me. Why is NAI?

[Tuxedo Mask]

That would be nice.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Kowtow means to be subservient, bending to whims of others. I just found out it comes from Mandarin Chinese and is deep head to the ground bow, to show the utmost respect.

Also, this may be a nitpick but he doesn't say he doesn't want to kowtow, but that he doesn't want to appear to be kowtowing. Which seems interesting.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Lucky, I don't mean this accusatorily, but you sound defensive. I don't think Micc meant anything (correct me if I'm wrong) and more came off as a teaching moment for newbies like me.

[Tuxedo Mask]

My apologies, I did not know what BPP stood for.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Spoiler: 1

Hi Tuxedo,

Regarding experience on Forum Mafia: I have taken part in two custom mafia games on forums set up by an old LARP group about 5 years ago. In Meat Space I play and usually run games of Mafia as often as possible, before all this probably a few sessions every fortnight.

I always present as amicable no matter which medium I am connecting on. There's no reason to be anything other as far as I see it.

This sounds right, they're holding themselves well.

Spoiler: 2

I was voting for Fwog to put him at L-2 (Apologies if the formatting is incorrect) to see if there was more to the read and also to get a strong reaction regarding listing yourself as town, which i have got in spades. As such, shifting a vote to 72 to query this "Gut feeling" seems logical. I'd like to query 72 first however.


72offsuit, this is a strong reaction to a small query. Is this your playstyle or is there something in particular that you object to in the above?

JV, has 72's playstyle matched or differed from the two games you've played with them?

UNVOTE: fwogcarf

Says the vote was for pressure and reaction test. Calls it an immediate success, doesn't explain what it proved if anything. Then hops off the wagon while casting suspicion on another player (already being questions by others) without voting them. He also backed off this Fwog extremely fast, giving up at the first sign of resistance.

Regarding the above, I did not call it an immediate success. I said that I got responses regarding self-listing in spades. This was from more than fwog and informed me more on how things are run in here.

In this context does 'in spades' not mean you got what you wanted, an 'immediate success'? If not, what do you mean by that? What would a strong reaction to listing yourself as town be? Would you expect scum Fwog to change his stance on self-voting if questioned? Did you think a vote really helped explain things, if it's just a site to site/player to player difference, would just asking not accomplish the same task?

Spoiler: 3

To address wagoning. I suppose there is still some value in it as long as there is a credible threat of hammering behind it, so to that end nothing is off the table.

To pick up on something Gyp addresses above, Fwog listing himself as town is suspicious and being defended by 72 is also suspicious. so VOTE: Fwogcarf

Fwog, I haven't played with you before, and it

wouldn't be so odd if 72 hadn't come to def

. I mean, everyone will outwardly say they're town, but you were asked for your read on other players and read yourself. That said, I'm glad you've done some soul-searching and introspection.

Regarding the 'contradiction' I say immediately in this statement that in itself self listing isn't by itself 'so odd'. As such the sentence prior should instead have read "Fwog listing himself as town and being defended by 72 is suspicious" or "Fwog listing himself as town is mildly suspicious and being defended by 72 is moreso". As discussed later, a counter-wagon is still potentially a form of defense, whether meant that way or not. The contradiction discussed is a matter of minced words as far as I see it, but read it how you will. I did however make a mistake as discussed previously in that Gyp was marking Micc's attitude as suspicious where as I mis-read it as Gyp picking up on Fwog. I identified this mistake in post 111. Noting this mistake, my opinion did shift slightly as it relates to the interaction and I feel I have made this clear in following posts.

To note of 'new angles', my suspicions are still present regarding the same event, but my focus, I think rightfully so is now on 72o. The counter-wagon and following idleness don't sit well with me. I'd like to discuss with them why in their view gyp's post was 'rubbing them the wrong way' but until they return, I cannot.

If there's anything else Tuxedo, let me know.

In addition, JV, when you have some time, if you could talk about your experience with 72 in other games, that would be greatly appreciated.

Personally I feel that listing yourself in any reads if it is just generic alignment is redundant, but if that's the rough convention on here then so be it. I don't find that in itself suspicious, apologies if I was not clear enough before.

So is it suspicious or not? There is a world of difference between something being null and being even the slightest most minorly suspicious.
Furthermore, there is a world of difference between defending a suspcious action, and a non-suspicious action. Do you agree?

Spoiler: Last Thing

Hi there, doing good, what are your current reads on the game?

town: fwogcarf, petrichorus, micc

null: everyone else

So, fwog / petri / micc are on the same level on townreads for you?

And personally, i don't really like micc's attitude in his post (i'm feeling like he isn't trying to gamesolve but rather cast some suspicion easily on peoples) but i'm waiting to see more content from him

This post is rubbing me the wrong way.
It reads to me like an awkward post from scum who don't know what to post, but feel like they need to post something that appears to be like contributing.
I don;t think its genuine to expect a layered townleans/reads order by page 3.

Non-RVS vote based on gut:

VOTE: Gyp

By your own reasons for voting Fwog and now 72, does it not look like you're doing the same? Defending the actions of Gyp by voting the people disagreeing with him?

[Tuxedo Mask]

nothing wrong with sheeping a slam duck case imo. we could do with more votes on bv310.

That, or the people who want to wagon Petrichorus need to get together and make a real wagon. They should probably state a more concise case too, because I'm really not following what they're seeing at this point.

also fwog, you are long past due to put that vote into play so yeah thoughts and a vote would be good

Can you elaborate on what doesn't work on the Petrichorus case for you?

[Tuxedo Mask]

@Fwog could elaborate on these reads a bit more? I appreciate the insight into your thoughts, but I'm having trouble following them.

BV/Luciano/(Gypyx/Micc) are the names in brackets less scummy than the other two? Or are they the two teams you're thinking of?

Your mentions of Gypx is one post you like and then saying they'll bend easily to pressure. 78 seems fine to me, they can disagree with your reads but still ask you to define them. What places them in your lynch pool?

What about Micc, I don't see them mentioned at all, why lynch them?

Besides pocketing me has Lucaino done anything else you find scummy?

You seem to scum read Petri, is tere any reason they aren't in your scum pool?

Of the four you listed, who would you vote for?

[Tuxedo Mask]

Chainsaw means to defend your scummy buddy by pushing their attacker. Fully called Chainsaw Defense.

Spoiler: Chainsaw Defense

Chainsaw Defense
The general form of this tell is "a player who defends another player by attacking the other player's attacker is very probably scum".

The key to identifying this tell is intent - it is possible to confuse Chainsaw Defense with a player who simply finds the attacker scummy and has no intent of defense. In general, you can be reasonably sure that this tell is involved if a) the player supposedly using Chainsaw Defense has not previously been especially critical of the player he is now attacking, and b) the player supposedly using Chainsaw Defense seems to find the player he is supposedly defending at least reasonably pro-town.

The extreme form of this tell is Mutual Chainsaw Defense, where two players defend each other by attacking each others' attackers. This is a major scumtell, and Tarhalindur would be willing to lynch/vig both players with only this tell as justification.

The Chainsaw Defense is named after the mental image of a player ripping apart another player with a chainsaw for daring to attack his ally. It should not be confused with the Cochrane Defense, which can also be referred to as the Chainsaw Defense (the Wiki refers to the Cochrane Defense this way), which is a gambit made by players investigated as scum. The Chainsaw Defense can also be referred to as the Bodyguard Defense in order to prevent confusion.

[Tuxedo Mask]

As for game stuff, let's go.

@Lucky, for you saying you like to pressure newbies day 1 because they're more likely to crack. I asked for Petri's experience, so they may be new to forum mafia their experience with the game IRL is extensive. Meaning they have their fair share of experience with pressure. I think it's worth taking into consideration.

As for pocketing, I'm null on it. My questions were more "I see you accuse Lucky of pocketing me, is there anything else about them you find scummy?" Not "I agree Lucky is pocketing me, what else makes them scum?"

For town leans, I'm going to reread today, but off the top of my head you, Micc, and Fwog.

@Petri could respond to the rest 255, please?

@Micc

My challenge for you would be to expand on how pushing easy wagons or backtracking on pushes is forwarding his scum win condition and not his town win condition.

It is good to think about, I'll be rereading everything today and keep this in mind as I go. I thought I had more to respond to for you, but rereading your points now I don't think I do. On my reread I think I'll be putting Petri on hold unless I think I find something particularly convincing for both you and Lucky. Instead, I'll be looking for the second one, and trying to strengthen my town reads.

@Micc & Lucky, did the game state not feel weird after Petri hit L-1? Maybe it's just all the prodds and replacements, but it kind of feels like we had a catch and his buddy didn't know what to do.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Is that L-1?
I think it is, Petri, you should signal if your vote puts someone to L-1 to avoid accidental hammers.

[Tuxedo Mask]

In addition, the oxford comma is throwing me, are you asking whether there is a difference beween defending a [suspicious action] and a [non-suspicious action] or a difference between [defending a suspicious action] and a [non-suspicious action]
Either way, the answer is yes I agree there is a difference

The first one.
What is the difference between defending a suspicious action and defending a non-suspicious action?

Can you elaborate on more than a yes?

[Tuxedo Mask]

Thank you, but I'll rephase.

I am talking not about defending yourself but defending another player.

So we're talking about this specifically.

Hi there, doing good, what are your current reads on the game?

town: fwogcarf, petrichorus, micc

null: everyone else

So, fwog / petri / micc are on the same level on townreads for you?

And personally, i don't really like micc's attitude in his post (i'm feeling like he isn't trying to gamesolve but rather cast some suspicion easily on peoples) but i'm waiting to see more content from him

This post is rubbing me the wrong way.
It reads to me like an awkward post from scum who don't know what to post, but feel like they need to post something that appears to be like contributing.
I don;t think its genuine to expect a layered townleans/reads order by page 3.

Non-RVS vote based on gut:

VOTE: Gyp

For this, you went after 72 and Fwog, because you felt the self-read was scummy, and defending it was also bad.
So if you no longer find the self read scummy, then defending it should also be null?

I hope that clears things up.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Since y'all seem settled on me for the day's lynch, I'd encourage those of you on the wagon to spend a few minutes looking at the other people involved and asking what your read is going to be when I flip Town.

Has a statement like this ever come from town?

We got three days, and no one has even announced intent to hammer.

Why don't you put the ground work in? It seems like you're making a gesture to posthumous scum hunting, but don't wanna waste your time because you know we'll use it to find your buddy when you flip.

[Tuxedo Mask]

You have 8 posts, 3 have content, just as many are prod dodges. But you'll seriously blame others?

Again I'm still here engaging with you, convince me. A huge thing with Fwog and Lucky just happened, do you have no input on that?

[Tuxedo Mask]

@72, can I have the day to reread and post end of day thoughts? It'd be much appreciated. Sorry for slacking on this game.

[Tuxedo Mask]

I might be misunderstanding then. When you said "at this point", is "this point" 271.

Either way, help me understand how that being your plan

at any point

is a good strategy. I'm not seeing why you didn't hard push me if you were confident that I am scum. I'm also concerned with how you seem unaware at how badly you are looking to confbias a read when your plan is to build a case against somebody else with the intent of using their flip, no matter what it is, to push me in the following day phase.

Yeah that seems right.

I haven't pushed you yet because I never got the opportunity to
VOTE: LuckyLuciano

What does this mean? Shouldn't you be making your own opportunities? Why wait so late, and after your plan fell apart for this?

Also, could you try explaining your plan more clearly? I don't know what your lynch chain is supposed to accomplish, or even why it's set up the way it is.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Micc: Like their solviness, and theory conversations, all feels like a genuine place of wanting to build a strong town discussion. I noted posts 66, 93, and 108 being ones that I specifically liked.

Fwog: I don't know how to feel about at all, I don't follow their plans or votes at all but that's NAI. It also has moments where it seems like they aren't reading closely, not realizing how little BV had posted, thinking I was accusing someone of chainsawing when I was just explaining it. Again don't know what it means, probably just used to faster games, so he's reacting on a post by post basis. But it seems more likely for scum to just skim. I think #216, #172, and #95 look good. #69 (nice) is a good highlight of this not really paying attention pattern.

Chainsaw means to defend your scummy buddy by pushing their attacker. Fully called Chainsaw Defense.

Spoiler: Chainsaw Defense

Chainsaw Defense
The general form of this tell is "a player who defends another player by attacking the other player's attacker is very probably scum".

The key to identifying this tell is intent - it is possible to confuse Chainsaw Defense with a player who simply finds the attacker scummy and has no intent of defense. In general, you can be reasonably sure that this tell is involved if a) the player supposedly using Chainsaw Defense has not previously been especially critical of the player he is now attacking, and b) the player supposedly using Chainsaw Defense seems to find the player he is supposedly defending at least reasonably pro-town.

The extreme form of this tell is Mutual Chainsaw Defense, where two players defend each other by attacking each others' attackers. This is a major scumtell, and Tarhalindur would be willing to lynch/vig both players with only this tell as justification.

The Chainsaw Defense is named after the mental image of a player ripping apart another player with a chainsaw for daring to attack his ally. It should not be confused with the Cochrane Defense, which can also be referred to as the Chainsaw Defense (the Wiki refers to the Cochrane Defense this way), which is a gambit made by players investigated as scum. The Chainsaw Defense can also be referred to as the Bodyguard Defense in order to prevent confusion.

why would anybody chainsaw defend in this setup

72: Vanishes than comes in with big spurts of content and questions. #80 feels awkward, them stating it's not an RVS specfically. I like their big burst in the #150s posts.

LL: They come in with a lot of energy that I like, and seem to generate good discussion with many people, Micc specifically. I think they do a good job of making themselves understood and engaging. Telling me to address Petri felt very town, and their bafflement at Fwog seems genuine.

I feel myself

wanting

you to be scum right now, so I'm going to take a step back and let other people weigh in before I end up confbias tunneling you.

This part I don't really understand. It feels kind of awkward and out of line with how they've been playing the rest of the day.

Gyp: Gives me good town vibes, they feel eager and genuine. #47, #72, #74 (though easy), and #78 feel good, natural, and solving focused. Their exchange with LL felt awkward but in an honest and town way. I've been there, just wanting to be understood.

JV/enomis: Jv's posts felt relaxed. I liked #40, #42. Fro Enomis null, haven't really been pushed or taken any hard stances. Asking lots of questions, but it's hard to gauge how he feels about the game.

Petri: I think they've improved over the day, very open to engaging. Answer questions over and over, and pushing theirs hard as well. Even and making sure the questions they ask are seen and responded to.

A couple of things I don't want to get lost and would like answered:
@Enomis,

Are there any interactions in D1 that you think are scumxscum or do you feel that they've avoided prolonged interaction?

@Fwog

92 - Just because 72 came to defend me means I'm locktown? Sorry Petri that doesn't make sense, especially when you congratulate me on doing something you think I'm scum for

RE: 92 - Please define 'locktown'. I'd like to know before I answer so as not to be misconstrued.

@72offsuit, with the exception of your 'gut read' on Gyp, you haven't posted any other content that I can see that gives any other read. You've asked plenty of people for their reads, but given no others from yourself. You say your gut read was to move us away from RVS but you've taken no other steps since your return to continue that momentum. As such, I would like to know whether your read on Gyp has changed and if not, who else do you read as Scum.

Can someone explain the jargon 'chainsaw' to me?

In addition, new questions and answers:

Spoiler: @bv310

72offsuit - The opposite of Fwog for me. Comes in early with reads and details, then drops off that entirely when other people start arguing.

What details or reads does he give at the start of the game before his disappearance with the exception of a single 'gut read' post on Gyp. You're giving him a lot of credit for all the nothing he did and seem to be reading into his drop-off when it seems NAI.
I'm getting some bad juju over this.

@BV, are there any contributions from 72 that you think are particularly notable or that show any leaning to you? I personally see mostly conjecture and bs.

Spoiler: @Lucky

I want to see more of this version of fwog and less of the mid-D1 fwog.

Seconded. That said, Do you find that the change in behaviour itself is AI or not?

@Petri, I also meant to ask in that last post, I'm looking for more content from you that isn't a defense of yourself. Is 72o still your primary focus? What are your thoughts on the other players and the different pushes made so far, both against you and against others?

I think that the questioning from yourself, Tux and fwog seem to be in good faith. To contract the state reasons for the votes of Tuxedo, Micc and Gypx are as follows:
Tuxedo: 103

When it comes to the 72/fwogcarf thing, I'd like to know what people are getting at in the 'defending' argument.

Is it suspicious for 72 to 'defend' a player on his own? Or do you think 72's defense is suspicious because you think fwogcarf is suspicious?

This has been a thoroughly discussed interaction and the interrogation was thorough and in good faith. I think the questions he asked were pertinent and aimed at building useful content.

Micc:

VOTE: Petrichorus
I'm in agreement that this is a good direction. I have fwog, Gypyz, tuxedo, and luckyLuciano on the probably not lynching today list, but that's contingent on me putting a little more work into actually think about things probably tomorrow

Micc did not engage with the wagon at all. After stating that he thought it was a good direction he then jumped off the wagon to chase bv. I don't think scum would have got off the wagon that quick, but it isn't entirely helpful.



Gyp: 202 -

My general thoughts on Petri is that he focuses way too hard on being friendly with others / his reads and way of playing don't make me feel like he wants to find scum

Petri states that his opinion changed, but it feels like there wasn't much needed to make him change his mind, as if he wanted to avoid getting unwanted attention for his opinions on the game

but it feels to me that he's just hoping that someone else will get the wagon rolling for him, in order to avoid suspicion

I think the reasoning is a little weak and he is late-ish to the wagon. He didn't interact much with the wagon after voting, but had some good posts on it before he jumped on.

I don't think any scum has jumped on the wagon. Whether it's because they're mostly inactive or because they don't want to jump on too late, I don't know.

72 is still my primary focus, but we'll see if he comes back or gets replaced. If he gets replaced, then maybe this will change. I'm happy while this is happening to move to BV as I concur with much of the discussion. I find his read on 72 specifically of note as a point which I don't think has been brought up yet.

Spoiler: @enomis

I'm still waiting on JV's replacement to react to the Petri push.

I'm also curious as to what a new perspective brings. Enomis, please can you exlain your reads and why you thought BV was more of a priority to push with a wagon?

Weighing in on Gyp:

I think the formatting and questions is NAI. When catching up, it's easy to re-ask questions. It's strange that they're so close together but I don't think it's a major suspicion.
301 seems to be well reasoned and a good answer to Lucky's question as far as I see it. As previously discussed I'd personally focus on who we want as a D1 lynch.

This is a specffic post I like a lot. Just has a little bit of everything.

Next is Bv.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Late to the party, and probably won't say anything new, but here it goes.

For the rest of RVS into Wagon stuff, I think one of the SEs could better explain. From my minor experience and reading other games on this site, RVS going into a wagon helps spark pressure and discussion early. We can see how the targeted player or players respond to being focused and at a high vote count, we can see what players push the wagon and what players avoid it. It's not much to go on, but it's something. And could provide useful information on a reread in future days once some people have flipped.

So short version you're right. Basically, every hidden role game like this relies on early game being messy and pointless until someone commits to a line of thought. This is even more pronounced in forum-Mafia play, since you can't really catch someone tripping over their words, or any of the other normal tells that a person might show when they're nervous. RVS enables that by getting some early reactions and discussion, which can get the ball rolling.

It strikes me that agrees with me here, and yet.

Yeah, he's not mentioned anything about Petri. So there is no evidence he scum read him. Someone pointed out that when question he jumped from one extreme to the next, saying he'd rather lurk tan spam posts.

He also later town leans on Fwog while keeping his vote parked on him. Scum or not he's asleep at the wheel.
I'm very pleased with this lynch today.

Final thoughts, I would like to get everyone's view on this on the record before the end of the day if possible. Especially clear up Fwog's feelings on it.

I also have thought, early in the day, there seemed to be a lot of miscommunication that seemed easy to exploit. Me/Fwog Me/Micc 72/Gypx, and yet it didn't happen, chaos wasn't sewn as easily as it could have been. Perhaps because both scum were absent up to that point in the game? So BV, JV, and Armcello. Has Armcello played scum before?

Man, I haven't played Mafia on here in years. It's nice to see some things don't change.

VOTE: Petrichorus

Gotta spread the Day 1 love around.

Aren't wagons considered more effective to move out of RVS?

Does it himself, and doesn't address it. Interesting who he voted for, but every time I think about it my head spins if WIFOM. Would Petri help lynch his partner day one?

Alright, catch-up time!

First off, UNVOTE: for now. I'm not as sold on my Petrichorus read as I was before. Still scum-leaning, but they're putting a lot of effort in to answering questions which is nice.

My current point of interest is actually Fwogcarf now.

One of my favourite early game strategies is to look at people in ISO to look for lots of posting without content. Right now, most people have provided information-gathering, answered larger questions, given opinions, that kind of thing. The only people excluded are Fwog, JV, and myself, and JV has decided to replace out. To me, that leaves one good option for digging in to. Fwog, your vote is currently parked on Mask. Do you still think he's a good choice for voting? Why/Why Not? If you were voting elsewhere, who would be a reasonable option in your opinion?

Also, Lucky, still waiting on your thoughts from yesterday morning. You said you needed time to gather your thoughts, and then never came back.

[Tuxedo Mask]

@Tux, who are your townreads? I get the feeling that you are more inclined to look for scum that to look for town, is this correct? I come to this conclusion because you come across as slightly paranoid.

Currently, I gotta pretty good vibes about most of the active players, Petri is coming up, with Micc at the top. Fwog confuses me, and I'm null Enomis.

I think I'm always paranoid, but to what angle seems to defer from game to game? This game I've felt pretty confident in my scum reads, but not any strong town reads besides general good vibes. But in others, I've felt good locking people as town left and right but can't find scum to save my life.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Hey man, it's cool, just a game. I'm wrong all the time. On a different site, I just mislynched, but also regretted the lynch at the last second. So now everyone thinks I was trying to look good by getting off a bad wagon at the last second.

Hell in this game, I directly questioned BV about his weird RVS, and never followed up. That was something I could have pursued way earlier in the day but tunneled Petri way too hard.

But we can talk now. What do you think Lucky is scum, and why do you think BV isn't?

[Tuxedo Mask]

Not to say you're wrong. I just mean, I think people tend to present more confident than they really are in these forum games, but I'm pretty sure most of us have no idea what we're doing and just trying to have fun.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Hey man, it's cool, just a game. I'm wrong all the time. On a different site, I just mislynched, but also regretted the lynch at the last second. So now everyone thinks I was trying to look good by getting off a bad wagon at the last second.

Hell in this game, I directly questioned BV about his weird RVS, and never followed up. That was something I could have pursued way earlier in the day but tunneled Petri way too hard.

But we can talk now. What do you think Lucky is scum, and why do you think BV isn't?

Oh please, you haven't seen my worst games.

The Lucky scumread comes from his interaction with Micc and the buddying up with you. Micc and Luciano's conversation didn't seem town motivated at all to me, more like filler content to pass the time i guess.

BV I don't want to lynch purely because I want more content out of them. Seeming as they have given up trying to defend themselves, I don't think that's gonna happen.

However I've seen and been the guy who's given up as town multiple times. I will not trust anybody on the BV wagon if he flips town, which I think he will.

Hmm, I think Lucky might be outside my ability to read well, but I can't say more. What about MIcc and Lucain's conversation did you dislike? I feel like their general scum huntingness and solviness has outweighed null interaction. Again it is a game, moments like that help keep things light and enjoyable.

Besides BV's giving up, to disagree with other points raised against them?

Yeah, town can give up. But Micc made a good point earlier of wanting to play towards crafting our best LYLO. So losing him day 1 is an outcome I accept, even if he does flip town.

P.S. I've had so major fuck ups in this game. Subbed into nearly won town games, and somehow to pulled all the moment around into a disastrous loss.

[Tuxedo Mask]

I've also somehow managed to fill up about 1/4 of this game with my shit

nice

It's fine man, play the game in a way that's fun for you. There are lots of worse playstyles than makes jokes. Some real toxic people out there, that being toxic is to them a strategy.

I regret bringing Petri's friendless up in my case against them. I feel like I may have told them to shut and treat everyone like a combatant. Which isn't true, and I'd rather play with someone who greets everyone than not.

So yeah, sorry @Petri.

[Tuxedo Mask]

I feel myself

wanting

you to be scum right now, so I'm going to take a step back and let other people weigh in before I end up confbias tunneling you.

This part I don't really understand. It feels kind of awkward and out of line with how they've been playing the rest of the day.

I mean, you've seen me confbias tunnel before. I don't understand how you don't understand that this is something I would do if I let myself get carried away.

I can't address this.

In this game, however, you've said that you like really pressuring newbies because they're more likely to crack in a way to obv town or obv scum. You tried it on Petri which seemed to only partially work for you. So it seems odd to me that it looks like you're ramping up to do it again, generating lots of content and conversation that allows all other players to better understand both of you. Then it's suddenly cut short in a way that feels inorganic.

From an outsider perspective, I do not see this ramping of tunneling that you claim you felt. It feels like a natural conversation, where you're read of Gyp is progressing in real-time. Then, despite what feels to be you getting a scum read, you halt suddenly. So yes, based on THIS game, it feels awkward.

I can hammer if people are okay with it.

[Tuxedo Mask]

That sounds fair. It just felt like a sudden stop from an outsider perspective. Though it could all be moot depending on the flip.

VOTE: bv310

[Tuxedo Mask]

Not a kill I suspected. Is it to cast FoS on Lucky?

[Tuxedo Mask]

I'll probably not be looking too much at this game today. I need to finish catching up elsewhere - I made a commitment to replace into a deep game.

Very same boat.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Not a kill I suspected. Is it to cast FoS on Lucky?

Who were you suspecting to die then?

Day 1 seems to go with a universal town read, so me or Micc.

I don't think Fwog would have looked very good coming into day 2. Maybe they suspected he was a PR? But it feels like a way to make Lucky look worse, as the day ended with both Fwog and I putting FoS on him.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Well, there might be something more than just putting FoS susp on Lucky (btw what does that exactly mean?) as if this really was scum's plan, they probably would've killed you i think

Finger of Suspicion

But people didn't town read, or follow Fwog. While people did for me. So they could hope I'd carry the momentum from the day ended, and really push Lucky, with the added evidence of that flip.

Basically I'm more likely to convince people than Fwog was.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Well, there might be something more than just putting FoS susp on Lucky (btw what does that exactly mean?) as if this really was scum's plan, they probably would've killed you i think

Finger of Suspicion

But people didn't town read, or follow Fwog. While people did for me. So they could hope I'd carry the momentum from the day ended, and really push Lucky, with the added evidence of that flip.

Basically I'm more likely to convince people than Fwog was.

That's a fair point, but is there any reason why you aren't considering the possibility that Lucky killed Fwog? (unless i misunderstood your point)

Mostly because it feels that's the line of thought the kill wants me to go down? Like it's such an unexpected kill, it really draws attention to itself.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Lol... It's fun playing on a site where people don't know me.

Wanna elaborate on this. Objectively the most suspicious thing you've said.

Where do you normally play?

[Tuxedo Mask]

My old site was debate.org.

I played under Mestari and Lucky_Luciano primarily.

The comment was made referencing the night kill analysis that's gone on so far. Elaborating beyond that is just going to be seen as WIFOM unless you want to go through all of my past scum games to confirm what I say, and if you are willing to do that, then you can figure out why I think this situation is funny without me telling you.

Naw, I mostly joking around. Thanks for the info though.

When you get time, I would like you to explain the Gyp vote. Does that mean you've gotten over your reservations from yesterday?

[Tuxedo Mask]

I'm going to reread the game more in depth before I start heavily engaging in this day phase. Just going off how I felt about players late yesterday, the next logical step is either Petri or Gypyx. Gypyx seemed to pretty heavily townread me towards the end of D1, and now he's starting D2 off supposing that I killed fwog. The disconnect doesn't feel natural, and fits in with your reasoning in 443.

I don't think he's been suspicious of you at all today. Just questioning my train of thought which heavily revolves around you. Nothin he's said implies he thinks your mafia, just wondering why I think the NK means you're not.

[Tuxedo Mask]

It's funny that we both said we're to busy for this game today, and we're the ones talking with each other.

[Tuxedo Mask]

You really have to start reading between the lines.

pedit: It's either I talk to you or I remind myself how much I regret the other commitment I made.

It's not that I don't see what you're getting at. But it is on you to more justify it.

And though I see it, it isn't out of line with him from Day 1.

It's just a game, I would appreciate if talking to you was a little less prickly.

[Tuxedo Mask]

That last part wasn't meant to come across negatively. It's more so that I'm drained from elsewhere and talking to you here is an excuse for a break from that commitment.

It's okay, I'm bad at picking up tone over text. I just felt that was more condescending what it could have been rewarded to be more educational. It is still a newbie game.

I'm down to hear your Petri read. I think I lost the thread on them and was starting to town read their last few posts.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Petri’s post 92 , ]
If Petri had such a reaction to my post, it feels at odds for him to post
post 82, which was on Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:41 pm and makes no reference to my post 80

And then only ~12 hours later, in post 92 on Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:43 am , decides he doesn’t like my post 80.

Just doesn’t feel right.

VOTE: Petri

And now it's May 6th, taken you a lot longer than 12 hours to find that gap in time scummy. Don't you think you're being a bit arbitrary?

[Tuxedo Mask]

Hey, @Enomis, you feel connected to the game yet? It seems like it's been a bit difficult even up till now. Despite replacing someone a while ago.

It seems your last two votes on Micc and Gypx seem pretty based on you not paying attention. Do you have any strong reads?

VOTE: Enomis

[Tuxedo Mask]

Reading Enomis?
They vote Micc, asking for them to explain their Petri vote/unvote. Micc had already done so pretty clearly in the game already. Does it again, sighting their original explanation. Enomis unvotes.

Their Gyp vote/unvote also seems based in miscommunication of Enomis part.

Combine that with a high number of posts of them saying they need to reread, or have read closely, creates a pattern of not really paying attention. And going through their ISO I see them asking a lot of questions, but don't have much of a understanding where they stand.

[Tuxedo Mask]

I understand your point, and I agree, Enomis should improve. Do you think that it's AI?

That said, I'd like to know whether you think it's most important to vote and wagon Enomis based on performance rather than on scumleans. Make a case for it.

We don't have a lot of time and we need to get more information from those we already expect. Myself included if that's where suspicions lie.

Remind me to answer once I have a response.

As for pursuing what's already on the table. I'm not convinced by once be put against Gyp, and I don't scum read you. So no, pushing you two isn't something I'm interested. What would help is more people posting in general. Which I'm at fault for as well.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Also @Lucky, can you explain your scum read of Petri now?

[Tuxedo Mask]

Okay, so this conversation played out not as I expected.

@Micc how do your reads readjusts after BV flipped town? Also, I get you're doing the hands-off, see how this wagon pans out thing, but can you give insight into how you go from asking people to help you tackle 72 to voting with him in a page?

@72, how do you feel about Gyp/LL interactions today and yesterday?

[Tuxedo Mask]

The only thing I read into these 2 was when LL directed gyp onto Petri.

The had a conversation yesterday that ended with LL "not wanting to tunnel" and cutting short, and LL is voting him now. So I'm going to be double-checking that stuff.

[Tuxedo Mask]

@Micc, I'm in a similar spot of information gathering. What do you think of Enomis?

[Tuxedo Mask]

My current solve would be LL and enomis. Both I see as scummy, and both town read each other.

LL got very upset when I voted Enomis.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Well, there might be something more than just putting FoS susp on Lucky (btw what does that exactly mean?) as if this really was scum's plan, they probably would've killed you i think

Finger of Suspicion

But people didn't town read, or follow Fwog. While people did for me. So they could hope I'd carry the momentum from the day ended, and really push Lucky, with the added evidence of that flip.

Basically I'm more likely to convince people than Fwog was.

Who did you think was following you/would/will follow you today?
Players who aren;t particularly charismatic and arent easily able to convince others, are still a threat to scum.
Furthermore I don;t think many people scum read fwog either.

I don't mean that like I controlled the town, and everyone listened to me and thought I was great. I just mean I was town read, and lead the Petri wagon, while Fwog seemed to have trouble getting people onto their side/perspective. So if day 1 ends with both of us FOS on LL, I think scum would think I'm the more likely candidate to get momentum on it.

I rewrote this like seven times trying not to sound like an asshole. I was just going for an analysis of the events as the day played out.

It's all moot anyway, as my initial thoughts on the NK are probably wrong. Fwog could have been killed for a million reasons.

Anyways, did the ISO of 72. His posts and thoughts are consistent and easy to follow and are always open and forthcoming with thoughts and answers. Nothing jumped out to me as dishonest, disingenuous, or scum motivated. So for me, they're town.

[Tuxedo Mask]

476 response:
You aren't comparing apples to apples, but rather apples to elephants.

Apple: I'm accusing Petri of a timing tell. Rereading his ISO, I noticed that he didn;t react to my post until after he had posted something else unrelated.

Elephant: Petri read a post, did not comment on it, posted something unrelated, then 12 hours later makes a comment on the post.

Apples and elephants.

That is apples and apples, it is still a game played over the course of days. Anything can explain that incident, what is the scum motivation behind it?

[Tuxedo Mask]

My current solve would be LL and enomis. Both I see as scummy, and both town read each other.

LL got very upset when I voted Enomis.

Because you voted on someone clearly showing active scumhunting and a genuine town mindset. The vote couldn't have been worse unless you self-voted.

I don't consider casting votes based on not reading the game to be scumhunting. And chill it with the insults, it's a game, I've been courteous with you making moves you shouldn't. Pay me and others the same respect.

[Tuxedo Mask]

I addressed the time you were condescending about the Gyp vote and tried to move past the initial anger of my Enomis vote only explaining my thought process. You can also refute 72's arguments without belittling him as a player. And there was post at the end of day 1 I addressed by saying I can't address it.

Frankly, I feel like walking on eggshells around your slot. From what I have read this seems like a common occurrence whenever suspicion is cast your way, and it is seriously impairing my ability to engage with this game.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Back to the game, if you can show me what posts show Enomis doing scumhunting from a town mindset. I would like to see them.

[Tuxedo Mask]

I find the tone in shift #608 odd. Is spamming a few posts really worth going back to address, however quick? And as for the rest, it is basically what LL already said, including the angrier tone.

[Tuxedo Mask]

@Petri, people should keep doing what they're doing. Look for answers and push your leads. I'm still waiting for Enomis to get back in here.

That is accurate to how the day has played out, but I'm pretty ambivalent about all of it. If you had to twist my arm I'd go with LL at the moment, but I'm happy where I am. Especially considering my problem is that player being absent, I shouldn't really back off when they respond with being more absent.

And yes your #572 does also seem rather frustrated. Why is that? Is perhaps frustration with the player influencing your judgment?

[Tuxedo Mask]

@Petri do you think your accusation of rude and abrasive behavior is a little one-sided? YIf you like you share some of those tenets.

Thanks for the reminder of dodging questions.

476 response:
You aren't comparing apples to apples, but rather apples to elephants.

Apple: I'm accusing Petri of a timing tell. Rereading his ISO, I noticed that he didn;t react to my post until after he had posted something else unrelated.

Elephant: Petri read a post, did not comment on it, posted something unrelated, then 12 hours later makes a comment on the post.

Apples and elephants.

That is apples and apples, it is still a game played over the course of days. Anything can explain that incident, what is the scum motivation behind it?

Have you looked at the ISO of Lucky or 72? I did for 72 when Micc asked, and came away with a town read. Is your vote based on just the current confrontation?

Also @Micc, did you end up going through ISO, what did you find?

[Tuxedo Mask]

This is not what I expected to wake up to. Petri looks very good here, though I'm not sure about the rush for me to claim. I understand the logic just felt odd.

Anyways, Gyp just leaped to the top of my scum read. Their entire vote on LL feels like TMI, they seem convinced LL will flip town and don't seem to care at all. It's also strange to dismiss 72's entire case on LL, it'd be easier to sheep. And we have putting LL and L-1 without notifying. However, this post is pro the mafia win condition, I'd feel Mafia players would at least try and be a bit more subtle than that, so I'm going to check their ISO.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Just came back to correct that, I'm dumb. Thanks LL.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Gyp at L-1.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Ok so I think my post got misunderstood, my point was that, even in the worst case scenario that LL was town (which i doubt, but i'm trying to consider every option) we would still be in a good position, so therefore LL is a good lynch

I understood your post but let's break down how it comes off.

I've been townreading him for other reasons, but what i've said about him taking off his vote was the main part that led me to belive he's town

While i don't really see what you talked about as disengenuous, I agree that there was other weird things coming from him recently, like the fact that he accuses me upon considering that he could be scum

So overall yeah, I feel like lynching LL is probably the best choice there, because even if he doesn't flip scum, we'll probably have a good idea of where the scum could be

1. The opening is you explaining your town read of LL
2. You disagree with 72's scum read of LL.
3. The first mention of scum LL, you site one thing and wave more examples as "weird things."
4. You focus on what happens if LL flips town, and why it would be a good lynch anyways.

So while your post technically comes down on a mafia viewpoint off LL, you do vote for them. You spend the majority of the post,\ viewing them as town with nearly no arguments or evidence of them being Mafia. It comes off as opportunistic, as you try to lynch someone scum reading you, while not wanting to be assoasocitad with a bad argument agaisnt them.

[Tuxedo Mask]

@Gyp, if you wanna clarify your read of LL now would be the time to do it. Show us those posts you find scummy.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Finished ISO @Gyp what happened to your scum read of 72? It was something you consistently brought up Day 1. Even lamenting that a 72 lynch didn't seem possible that day, and you'd have to wait. Now day 2 is nearly done and you haven't mentioned them until saying the LL/72 interaction is either Wolf/Wolf or Wolf/Town. What happened there? You don't agree with their read of LL at all, wouldn't it make sense to follow up on that disagreement + your scum read of them and question them? Instead, you join their wagon.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Well, i viewed them as town as it is what needed the most explaination imo, because there's no need to explain why you want to lynch someone you consider as scummy
And then, while I see how this can be viewed as opportunistic, this is just my process of thoughts (and btw, i don't think distanciating you from a lynch while being the vote that puts at L-1 is a realistic plan)

Can you explain this more? It comes off like you do town read LL. And no you don't need to explain why you wanna lynch a scum read. I'm saying you haven't explained your scum read.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Well, i have a theory that 72 / LL might be the scumteam, but i don't really have the time to explain it as i have to do other things

That's fine we have three days.

@ Tux - so where r u at in reads right now?
We have 2 players at L-1.

I'm aware of the situation.

I town read Petri. Micc has fallen off with a lack of content today.

Enomis has done nothing to change my view of them, continuing to acknowledge they aren't paying close attention.

LL I need to reread, they have stuff I like and stuff I dislike. More I dislike at the moment, but I also don't think I'm a good person to read them.

Right now I'm pretty convinced by a 72/Gypx scum team.

I think its pretty telling that all 3 of my scumreads are voting tpgether on gyp right now.

So you like Gypx vote on LL, and the reasons he provided? Because that is the source of the attention on him at the moment.

I find it interesting that you attack the surface of the situation and not the content.

[Tuxedo Mask]

@ Tux - so where r u at in reads right now?
We have 2 players at L-1.

Nvm. I see u said u r leaning towards gyp.
Doesnt really make sense to me given you townlean/read micc, myself and gyp earlier, and thay youd side with LL, and enomis your top scum read

Town reading you or Micc doesn't make you right or convincing. And I'm questioning Gypx at the moment for their content, regardless of how others feel about them. I haven't asked them to claim or announced intent to hammer, so your feelings about my leanings feel unjustified. You continue to ignore the content and go for surface level acknowledgments. I know who I'm reading and where they are voting.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Of course i like his vote on LL.
LL is scummy as.
I ASKED him to join the wagon and he did.

Really? You don't think a stance like that is very easy for scum to take advantage of? He votes LL while calling them town, disagreeing with your argument, and not putting forward one of their own. That's acceptable for getting LL? It doesn't make you slow down and reassess, the two people supporting your push at the moment are either apathetic to your arguments or town reading the lynch victim?

[Tuxedo Mask]

For the record, I would be very surprised if Micc came back here and vocally supported an LL lynch at this moment.

[Tuxedo Mask]

What do you like about LL?
Im not getting that impression from your ISO.

I'm going to read their ISO now, but I like their handling of the Petri wagon and Fwog especially. I think the Fwog situation was ripe to take advantage of, and he didn't. I'm referring to Fwog's plan to Lynch Bv and then LL regardless of the flip.

What content am i ignoring.........?

The content is the reasons given and arguments provided. I know if someone called my read of someone incorrect then joined the wagon anyways, I would be very suspicious.

[Tuxedo Mask]

So what do you think of LLs hostile response to my case against him?
Claims he is busy with other games, but rather than being apathetic he is Hyper-aggressive and basically attacks me, almost on a personal level.

It just doesnt match up what he is posting re being bogged down with games and the aggro tone

I think its NAI. In line with what I've seen of them in other games. I commented on it because it's a game, so I'd rather have fun.

You could maybe make the case that his response to your case specifically is OMGUS, but he's to experienced for that and hasn't called you scum over it yet.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Man, Karnage is good at getting these Page tops.

Finished LL ISO. I got some questions. He's really consistent on pushing Petri and Gypx from the moment he started the game. He engages them, pressures them, and opens up pathways for them to provide content so he can evolve his read of them. However, his read doesn't evolve much.

His unvote and eventual null read of Petri feels...dishonest? He's pretty insistent that the unvote is only to prevent accidental hammers, while simultaneously taking credit for stopping the momentum, and allegedly reaction testing Petri. These separate moments all make sense on their own, but don't really mesh together for me. Especially since he seems to still hold Petri up as a viable lynch option.

@LL, I would need an in-depth Petri read from you, with some more explanation of your process. It seems inconsistent at the moment.

His read of Gypx is at a similar point, but is much easier to follow and feels much more genuine. My questions here is..

@LL is your read Gypx solely based on their day 2 NK analysis? Or is their more you can provide?

Lastly relating to the Petri wagon is the BV wagon. He says at one point he's waiting for someone to defend Petri, and that no one does is a hint to them being town. However, this never comes up for BV who was also universally scum read.

@Do you have a reason for not defending BV the same way?

There's also the reason I wanted to wait for BV and JV's replacement to contribute. This is a setup where a scum lynch D1 can be a mechanical loss for scum. I wanted to see how the inactives viewed the wagon, because I simply don't see a world where nobody defends Petri if he's scum. I thought I found this in BV's 194, but he says in 276 that he is still scumreading Petri. Then enomis comes in and in 253, is also scum on Petri. Lynching Petri doesn't feel right. I want to look back at the push and see who kinda just prodded it along without contributing to it. This is also why I wanted to wait for Tux to respond to Petri's 135. I haven't looked deeply into Tux's 255, so I don't have a reaction to it yet, but it's on my to-do list for this sitting.

A post like this pings me for its inherent hypocrisy. It's a defense of Petri based on the fact no one has yet to defend Petri, just yeah.

Ngl, BV's recent posts read as scum who knows they are caught. I don't see town motive for explicitly not wanting to help the town. I have an additional thought on this, but it loses its value if I voice it now. I'll explain it D2.

Can you explain what you were getting at here?

My current solve would be LL and enomis. Both I see as scummy, and both town read each other.

Every scummate I have ever had is rolling in their grave laughing at you for saying this.

And this is a post I wish LL didn't make, because no matter who flips today I'm going to have a lot of trouble not wanting to flip the other one.

[Tuxedo Mask]

476 response:
You aren't comparing apples to apples, but rather apples to elephants.

Apple: I'm accusing Petri of a timing tell. Rereading his ISO, I noticed that he didn;t react to my post until after he had posted something else unrelated.

Elephant: Petri read a post, did not comment on it, posted something unrelated, then 12 hours later makes a comment on the post.

Apples and elephants.

That is apples and apples, it is still a game played over the course of days. Anything can explain that incident, what is the scum motivation behind it?

[Tuxedo Mask]

Called it.

[Tuxedo Mask]

I'm leaning gypyx right now, but I'm somewhat prone to having completely different thoughts every time i look closely at the thread. I'd like to talk through this one with you and hopefully have a decision made today because we need to get to a claim before the deadline gets close. Let me know what you thought of my catch up and we can go from there. You predicting my reaction makes me feel like we are gelling, but maybe that feeling isnt' mutual. I have to do some shopping but I will be back after.

I'm waiting on LL to respond to my ISO of them, but I do agree with you at this moment. My biggest hesitation with Gypx is that there is a recurring awkwardness in their posts, which makes me feel there is some kind of communication barrier. 72's encouragement of their vote while not acknowledging the words surrounding it is super weird to me, it makes me feel W/W but that would be really obvious.

So my biggest thoughts at the moment are I really wanna sort LL, and wondering if we should pivot from Gyp to 72.

Everyone else can, at the very least, wait till Day 3.

[Tuxedo Mask]

I'm just waiting on Micc and Lucky.

What do you think of 72's reaction to Gyp's vote?

[Tuxedo Mask]

I thought you wanted to reach a conclusion on the game by us discussing. That's why I'm waiting on you.

Besides Gyp what are the completely different thoughts you're prone to when you look at the thread?

[Tuxedo Mask]

Yeah, that seems to be the consensus. It' s a pretty suicidal push against LL on either alignment. They certainly don't have a regard for where the votes come from, their only interest seems to be that LL dies. Which I guess maybe more likely from town than mafia? But it seems weird both ways.

[Tuxedo Mask]

72 also didn't bring up buddying once day 1, and now it's the crux of his case against LL. You think he would have agreed with Fwog in the moment, or build on Fwog's read of LL. What parts stick out to you as dishonest?

[Tuxedo Mask]

The argument of LL's 'hostility' being scum indicative doesn't really track for me either. I think in general hostility comes from town more often. But looking back on the interaction, i don't even know that hostile is the word I'd use, maybe dismissive? But something like 607 I feel is dishonest to the game state with respect to 72offsuit painting LL hostility as a scum tell.

I don't know about town vs. scum when it comes to hostility. But I can say LL response to 72 is within their playstyle and at the very least NAI.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Do you think it's likely or even possible that Gyp/72 is W/W?

[Tuxedo Mask]

gypyx trajectory on LL doesn't really track to me while looking in ISO. Top 3 town read in 297, outside of top 3 scum reads in 373, kinda considering LL in Day 2 opening, to LL is best lynch for the day in 618.

Following up on the top 3 scum reads from 373, gypyx still has 72offsuit as a scum read, but petrichorus has completely fallen off the radar, and I don't understand that.

In post 650, Gypyx wrote:
Well, i have a theory that 72 / LL might be the scumteam, but i don't really have the time to explain it as i have to do other things

I think I need to see the expanded version of this in order to have a good understanding of where gypyx is at.

Yeah, basically everything Gyp said today came from nowhere and was unexplained.

[Tuxedo Mask]

The single occurrence was just an initial town ping. His play recently strongly suggest he's town.

What I'm asking is if you could stop focusing on 72o for a few minutes to expand your thoughts on Petri for me.

It's probably this one.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Cool, I was still waiting for LL to get back to me but okay. But a confirmed cop does explain all my issues with your slot.

@Petri you don't need to not counterclaim. You just do or you don't.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Let's not have any more claims.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Only a Town Friendly Neighbor could prove anything anyway.

[Tuxedo Mask]

@LL, can you answer my questions for you?

[Tuxedo Mask]

If the optimal play is to lynch 72 regardless, then shouldn't Friendly neighbor not claim? Not saying that we should just close our eyes and plug our ears and kill 72, but following your idea.

[Tuxedo Mask]

I’m not committed to lynching 72offsuit if there’s no friendly neighbor, even if that’s mechanically optimal. I guess if there are enough votes committed to that then you’re right. But if lynching LL is up for consideration then it’s better to have someone come forward and say no that’s wrong. The cost of outing FN is minimal either way since the entire purpose of that power is to eventually come forward and be confirmed Town.

Thanks for the explanation.

I think we're both leaning on LL at the moment. I need them to get back to me about the questions I have for them.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Yeah, lucky we have claims from the two people we're killing today. Ironically Lucky being one of them. So there isn't as much pressure to make a decision as there was before.

For the record
Enomis
72
Gyp
Micc
and Myself
are currently more towards lynching Lucky today.
Luck (obviously) wants to lynch 72.

Petri who are you leaning towards? So we have a sense of things if Lucky never comes back with a response.

[Tuxedo Mask]

You're right, sorry I missed that. So unanimous disbelief in LL, it's good to know where we'll go when push comes to shove.

[Tuxedo Mask]

I was waiting until he answered my questions. I'm not as convinced as you guys. But nothing is stopping you from voting. Gyp, 72, Enomis, and Petri is enough for a lynch. I'd rather wait, but you know, do what you want.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Okay, we are not lynching outside of 72 and LL, that's insane.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Yeah, lucky we have claims from the two people we're killing today. Ironically Lucky being one of them. So there isn't as much pressure to make a decision as there was before.

For the record
Enomis
72
Gyp
Micc
and Myself
are currently more towards lynching Lucky today.
Luck (obviously) wants to lynch 72.

Petri who are you leaning towards? So we have a sense of things if Lucky never comes back with a response.

"lucky we have claims from the two people we're killing today"

What does this post mean???
I was never at threat of being lynched today.

My point is with a counterclaim, you are now. We are lynching between you and LL, and since you've both already claimed we don't have to worry about it is all I meant.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Disagreement, that's what I've been waiting for. Okay, let's lynch LL.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Man, Karnage is good at getting these Page tops.

Finished LL ISO. I got some questions. He's really consistent on pushing Petri and Gypx from the moment he started the game. He engages them, pressures them, and opens up pathways for them to provide content so he can evolve his read of them. However, his read doesn't evolve much.

His unvote and eventual null read of Petri feels...dishonest? He's pretty insistent that the unvote is only to prevent accidental hammers, while simultaneously taking credit for stopping the momentum, and allegedly reaction testing Petri. These separate moments all make sense on their own, but don't really mesh together for me. Especially since he seems to still hold Petri up as a viable lynch option.

@LL, I would need an in-depth Petri read from you, with some more explanation of your process. It seems inconsistent at the moment.


At this point I'm 100% sure it's just Gypyx + 72o.

So he ignores the main point raised against him, which is his inconsistent stance of Petri. And just pushes a scum team forward. I didn't even ask if he thought Petri was scum, just to clarify what he was thinking day one. I'm feeling pretty good with a LL and Petri scum team, as they both come to each other's rescue on day 1 and 2.

[Tuxedo Mask]

VOTE: LL

[Tuxedo Mask]

Sorry, messed up the formating.

Also, that's L-1.

[Tuxedo Mask]

You played the end game very well. You're call out of Micc 'slip' completely derailed day 3 and basically won you turn game. Not to diminish LL's efforts as well, who did a great job distancing.