TM 2021 Large Normal 2: Wikipedia Integer Facts (Over)

[Hopkirk]

quick update to my blacklist that i posted last game

Staarling

– One of Hectic’s alts. We’re not eligible to play together.

Untrod Tripod

– Given his role in organizing the event I can’t help but feel he’ll probably have setup related details that would give him an advantage in the game.

Flopz

- He’s on my team so we can’t technically play together. Honestly, we picked him up to avoid the horrific toxic 1v1s he starts every game.

Osama bin laden

(the real one) – I know this is a controversial statement, but I don’t want to play mafia with international terrorists . Not even dead ones.

Hoptic

- It’s a hydra. It’s also one of my hydras. If it was in the game, I’d be less annoyed that someone on my BL got in, and more incredibly concerned about who’s out to get me.

Magnetic

(parknourie alt) – Banned a decade ago for alt-based cheating. I don’t want to see that in my team mafia games.
A hydra of everyone on mafiascum who wants to destroy team mafia to get revenge on the mods– honestly this one is kind of self-explanatory. One or two of them are already on our team so we aren’t eligible to play together.

Tubbs

(Hectic’s pet hamster) - I don’t want to out their alt, but I’m glad they’re in the large theme and not this game.

Emperor Hadrian

- he blacklisted me like 1900 years ago and I blacklisted him back. I’d prefer not to get into it.

Explodernaught

- Not an existing account. I only want to play with real people nowadays.

Albert B Rampage

- He did some highly questionable stuff in a game i played in recently. Don't really want to go through that again

[Hopkirk]

Somebody, I won't say who, but somebody of good authority has told me that I am indeed first.

pedit: fuck you

Sucks to suck, chicken boy!

are you trying to start a toxic 1v1? i like toxic 1v1s. if only there was a way i could get into one...VOTE: Lady Lambdadelta

[Hopkirk]

herc you seem different

[Hopkirk]

me have top sekrit meta read on hercule

ftr my team were briefed on hercule's scum meta and had we flipped xtoxm, hercule would have probably been bye bye, i will say koba gave us some tips on scum!hercule and even though dkkoba was like "he's town", everyone else on the team were like "but u just described his play this game"

no mention of that top sekrit thing in hercules wall so hehehehuehuehuehe

ahem then again the only reason why we wanted to flip hercule was because we thought xtoxm/hercule/mastina was it and i didn't want to push mastina

must be nice having a team providing you with advice like that. without naming any specific members, my teammates are not reading my game and/or flinging a bunch of racial slurs at me in our team discord channel...
i do probably have hectic-shaped-backup this time though

me have top sekrit meta read on hercule

ftr my team were briefed on hercule's scum meta and had we flipped xtoxm, hercule would have probably been bye bye, i will say koba gave us some tips on scum!hercule and even though dkkoba was like "he's town", everyone else on the team were like "but u just described his play this game"

no mention of that top sekrit thing in hercules wall so hehehehuehuehuehe

ahem then again the only reason why we wanted to flip hercule was because we thought xtoxm/hercule/mastina was it and i didn't want to push mastina

wait you scumread me the whole time???? damn

for the record i also scumread the entire scumteam from like page 4. i just kept it secret because i felt bad for y'all

[Hopkirk]

ok well let's not play shit on hercule ok i am proud of how i did

im complimenting you! that's how towny you were to me, i would've been sus if you weren't NK'd soon-ish lol.

one reason I TR'd you was from all your team interactions, i think that is like, wayyy more NAI than I thought it was previously, especially for a team like yours.

can you tell me how amazing i am too? i'm vulnerable to pockets.

[Hopkirk]

ok well let's not play shit on hercule ok i am proud of how i did

im complimenting you! that's how towny you were to me, i would've been sus if you weren't NK'd soon-ish lol.

one reason I TR'd you was from all your team interactions, i think that is like, wayyy more NAI than I thought it was previously, especially for a team like yours.

okie ty. yeah I literally was spamming them like guyssss i need you to scumhunt so people think we're townnn. spf kept giving me ISOs where she sr ceph though so i kept not sharing them LOL

did you... try asking your team to case people who weren't scum with you? that feels like a communication error on your part tbh

town was very likely going to win, unless Cephrir/ABR started obvtowning. Xtoxm was a goner at some point and hercule was not enough and apparently others were sus of them so yeah

my reads were no better than a coinflip but oh well I don't expect much from myself d1! lol

pedit: Hopkirk you were amazing and ur towniness shined through like a beautiful beacon of pure townie energy

i feel like you [line]are trying to[/line] have successfully pocketed me

[Hopkirk]

Herc are you

sure

that SPF didn't bang their head against the wall until they forgot the scumteam before they started giving you advice?

[Hopkirk]

can people start posting stuff i don't like

[Hopkirk]

is it wrong that i just wanna vibe this game since my team already lost black flag

it's pretty wrong, but it's also super fun. last year i was able to spend the entire game making long angry rants about how my team had already lost team mafia due to a modkill (that Kuriboh forced through as scum onto a townie who wasn't saying what Kuriboh claimed). it's really freeing to know that your team aren't going to blame you for losing the event for them. personally i've already got flopz threatening to garotte me in my sleep if i don't win this game, but i'm not worried. he's really toxic so we all know he'd posion me instead

[Hopkirk]

can people start posting stuff i don't like

i rolled scum and hate it so im letting out all my nervous energy into main thread so i get townread for it and can coast later

VOTE: innocent villager

[Hopkirk]

before you ask, "why are you claiming scum, innocentvillager?" you should know that scum claiming is like super scum!indicative for me!

careful, if you say you've only done it as town because you've only started doing it recently, haven't had scum since you started doing it, and intend to do it as scum next time you're scum then that's apparently a trust tell that'll get you modkilled (not that we're bitter about last year or anything)

[Hopkirk]

can people start posting stuff i don't like

i rolled scum and hate it so im letting out all my nervous energy into main thread so i get townread for it and can coast later

VOTE: innocent villager

haha you're a funny man i don't care that you voted me at all im going to pretend I didn't see it!

idk why you're pocketing me but not voting anyone. that seems like a wasted effort of pocketing me?
if you want you can sheep me onto LadyLamb?

[Hopkirk]

I know a lot of people in this game are probably a bit tilted by

recent events

, so I wrote a little guide to help anyone who’s feeling tiled by last game.
- Don’t be tilted by recent events
- If you’re tilted, then you’re scum
- Why would you be tilted, like wtf? You’re basically in the same game except now you know the mods care
- We already got one set of points for winning as town so I don’t see why doubling up on these for free could possibly be an issue
- This is a glorious opportunity to play a game with Titus. How often do you get a chance to play with Titus? Exactly. You got an extra 100 pages of Titus for

free

. That’s a win in my book.
- My book: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/729 ... Andronicus

[Hopkirk]

glad to see you're not getting modkilled
#justice for elements #they did phrase it really badly tbf

VOTE: lady lambdadelta

[Hopkirk]

protip - if your scumteam isn't doing well just send a message to everyone in the game revealing your scumteam. this works best when you're someone without an established rep, like say Mastina, and don't mind having to abandon the account afterwards

[Hopkirk]

guys do you think we're shitposting too much in here

[Hopkirk]

like too much

[Hopkirk]

i think the entire thread is entitled to a couple pages of shitposts all things considered

yeah but we're on page three...

[Hopkirk]

i kinda want to get thirty pages of memeing in and see how many people sub out in disgust. most of my games start at like 4 in the morning and this is a wonderful opportunity

[Hopkirk]

i'd prefer to call us a vibesblock than a townblock atm but i'm getting good vibes from everyone tbh

[Hopkirk]

i mean Mastina made it very clear that she reads the first X pages

[Hopkirk]

how did you feel about xtoxm getting run up so hard lasttime?

[Hopkirk]

yeah mastina

[Hopkirk]

what we should do is pick the most anti-memer player and put them on like 6-7 votes before they reach the thread. they'll enter the thread for the first time and see they're a massive wagon and they'll just hate us all so much

[Hopkirk]

flopz says we deserve to be hated because we're terrible people

pedit
...
VOTE: xtoxm

[Hopkirk]

LOL i love it. xtoxm I n0 red checked you sorry bro

where's your vote?

[Hopkirk]

oh damn that 'i've been voting him all along' plot twist was like something out of a m night shyamalan anime

[Hopkirk]

inb4 xtoxm claims tracker again

[Hopkirk]

they probably came online to post then saw that only townies were posting and got scared and ran away. happens in like 20% of games nowadays tbh

pedit - Dann no

[Hopkirk]

we had a vibe going Dann

[Hopkirk]

I’m turning a new leaf

Vibes are bad

look if you want to try and drag this thread into something resembling 'non vibe based scumhunting' you're going to need a lot more than that

inb4 xtoxm claims tracker again

seeing as I am a STRONG INVESTIGATIVE ROLE i would immediately counterclaim that because there's no way that there are TWO strong investigative roles in a large normal

as a STRONG PROTECTOR OF INVESTIGATIVE ROLES THAT ALSO STOPS THEM BEING ROLEBLOCKED, BUS DRIVEN, OR OMNIVERSAL TRANSPORT DEITY'D i'm really happy to see you claim this early

[Hopkirk]

[Hopkirk]

to be frank i probably won't even pretend to scumhunt for at least 24 hours

...

hi frank

[Hopkirk]

can you guys stop cluttering the thread with shit and non-game content? it's really fucking annoying when im trying to play this game for real and actually find scum.

yeah, seconding this. can anyone third it?

[Hopkirk]

can you guys stop cluttering the thread with shit and non-game content? it's really fucking annoying when im trying to play this game for real and actually find scum.

yeah, seconding this. can anyone third it?

uhh no tbh it's coming across a bit whiny from innocentvillager, he already scumclaimed and knows the whole scumteam. so if anything i find the request condescending and obnoxious

are you being sarcastic here?

[Hopkirk]

just checking...

vibe

checking

[Hopkirk]

wait what if i got drunk and obvtowned. this feels kinda broken

[Hopkirk]

wait what if i got drunk and obvtowned. this feels kinda broken

bruh i'll do it with you. maybe like tmro. LOL dude actually i'm so sad implosion won't let me do vocaroos i would post drunk vocaroos

... who else is in for drunken posting this kind of time tomorrow (or a bit later if that works better)?

just so you're all aware, ive crumbed my role somewhere at this point. it's very subtle so you'll never guess it but i thought you all should know.

was it the mason claim?

masons with okapoka

mate can you stop pr hunting? you'll out yourself as IV's mason-partner

[Hopkirk]

he did?

[Hopkirk]

Herc and IV have BOTH passed hectic's hard vibechecks with townie vibes!

(vibechecking is when you check someone through vibes. if it vibes then it passes the check. i know this)

[Hopkirk]

wait that means some people didn't pass?

[Hopkirk]

damn, Oka and Dann haven't passed it yet. oof

[Hopkirk]

Dann none of us like you and that's me saying this when Hectic AND Flopz are reading (albeit flopz is mostly reading to make mean comments and bully me tbh)

[Hopkirk]

That’s hurtful

ohnoi'msosorrywemeantinthegamenotinreallife
i didn't like 165 though tbh

Let's vibe

well i was vibing with IV then you voted him...

i am an innocentvillager, i promise. i was just joking about being scum please believe

IV huh? we're vibing.

[Hopkirk]

why are you apologizing IV, never back down from a vibe

[Hopkirk]

Agar do you not think I'm funny or something...

[Hopkirk]

I want to believe in the fun shitposting vibeblock. Why is everyone trying to take this away from me

[Hopkirk]

why are you apologizing IV, never back down from a vibe

huehue .. i haven't apologized yet,, do u want me to daddy~

never

i rolled town this time and i'm so relieved

agar

im free

i dont have to care whether everyone townreads me or not anymore

i am awash in the energy of liberation

how do you think scum!you would enter the thread after seeing a second scum role pm?

[Hopkirk]

Ceph isn't ever considering that IV might be scum having a

bad time

since he doesn't enjoy memeing but is just doing it to pocket me smh

[Hopkirk]

i rolled town this time and i'm so relieved

sry for being so cute before, the boys can't resist me u know how it is.

how do you think scum!you would enter the thread after seeing a second scum role pm?

i don't know

i don't care :3

you sure you don't know? i care about both your emotional wellbeing and your alignment

[Hopkirk]

what i was getting at is that i'd assume you'd be less happy/more reluctant to start as scum? not really thinking about the actual content scum you would post here

[Hopkirk]

what i was getting at is that i'd assume you'd be less happy/more reluctant to start as scum? not really thinking about the actual content scum you would post here

oh id definitely be less happy but i might pretend to be happy

ok

[Hopkirk]

i was expecting to like ceph based on his answer there but i think i like him more based on not getting that answer

[Hopkirk]

aw

VOTE: dann

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: dgb

aw

VOTE: dann

I'm not sure how you got anything out of 219, or at least anything towny

why do you think me vote was on xtoxm and why do you think i moved it? it wasn't due to anything xtoxm said

ohnoi'msosorrywemeantinthegamenotinreallife
i didn't like 165 though tbh

go on

that's basically it. idk why. maybe because it's designed to make me feel like a bad person

[Hopkirk]

the talk about xtoxm's qt slip last game is just discussing the other game right?

[Hopkirk]

i've got enough people (Flopz) telling me i'm a bad person in the team discord. he called me hop

dork

earlier

hectic just said you didn't pass the vibecheck yet (nobody failed it though)
for me it's that you don't feel like you're vibing much with the thread/having fun? the only funness i can see (looking back because i forget the specifics of the vibecheck) is in 120 where it feels a little forced as it's reference humor. plus you vote two people i was vibing with after not opening with a vibe

[Hopkirk]

i hope my overuse of vibe doesn't stop that making sense

[Hopkirk]

why do you think me vote was on xtoxm and why do you think i moved it? it wasn't due to anything xtoxm said

My perspective:

Your vote was on because he 'would replace out' as scum
You removed it because of his response in 219

yeah, he's null

i've got enough people (Flopz) telling me i'm a bad person in the team discord. he called me hop

dork

earlier

hectic just said you didn't pass the vibecheck yet (nobody failed it though)
for me it's that you don't feel like you're vibing much with the thread/having fun? the only funness i can see (looking back because i forget the specifics of the vibecheck) is in 120 where it feels a little forced as it's reference humor. plus you vote two people i was vibing with after not opening with a vibe

Yeah that makes sense

I am curious why you voted me when you did though instead of when you originally thought my posting felt off

i can't resist a meme-wagon

[Hopkirk]

Mastina agrees with me on a spooky mind-meld level in 266 and 273. can you talk more about the reads are coming from mastina?

I think my townleans are Okapoka mastina Cephrir

thank you listening, see you next time

I don't townread any of these people

AGar (null--he did check in but didn't continue to post)

Mastina, I'm going to address this directly exactly once because you did this shit last game and you seem to have not learned:

I am not going to nolife this game.
I am not going to "hang around" after I post if I have something else to do or even just don't feel like staring at a mafia game spamming F5.
I am not going to ignore my job or my other responsibilities to post repeatedly in this game.
I am going to do my damndest to avoid spam posting because the very thought rips the will to play out of my soul.
I will frequently come in, comment, give my thoughts, and then dip out and do something else.

You keep throwing out there things like this like it's inherently something that is bad and it always has a tone of suspicion to it. Newsflash: it's just how I play. I am not going to change and I am not going to apologize. So either try and get a policy yeet rolling on me or fucking drop it.

Please don't post your read list every page
Please. Nobody cares.

I like IV so far.
Dann seems ok to me.
I'm gonna vibe with Ceph because he's got the same anger burning inside him that I do.

VLA until Sunday

I feel so shit for saying this, but:

I'm so sorry you rolled scum this game Titus.

this feels so overly aggressive. dislike

rvs read list inc <3

oh I guess I wasn't joking

Spoiler: serious rvs analysis time

coming into the game I was trying to keep an eye out for people who were quick to try and recreate the "vibes" of last game but either felt like they were forcing it or just felt distinctly different from last game in how they went about it. Very start of this game has ythan, hopkirk, okapoka, hercule, and IV talking the most. There's no actual content here but it's the type of memey early back and forth that creates (dare I say) good vibes between people and that scum wouldn't hate to establish a foothold in (like hercule had so pointedly done at the very beginning of last game).

off the bat I do agree that hercule feels different this game. He's less shy about directly interacting with people so far and I vaguely liked that he was the one that took the initiative on the meme xtoxm wagon. I don't think his change in approach or tone are things that he wouldn't necessarily be able to do as scum, and I think watching to see if he's able to keep this same type of energy up over a longer period of time will be most indicative for him, but for now I'm comfortable putting him slightly above everyone else.

ythan was who I originally landed on as feeling somewhat suspicious out of the starting meme/vibe/hangout group. just a purely gut reaction but he felt more on the outside looking in and #83 in particular just felt like kind of a forced way to match his energy to the thread. Reading back now though, I don't really see his posting so much as trying to cement himself within the vibes (whatever the hell that actually means) as just poking around rather nonchalantly. He doesn't post that much and doesn't seem particularly desperate to be "in the vibes" which is my new term for people trying to get themselves in the early meme town block I guess?

I actually do lean town on Hopkirk. I won't go into details but I was having a terrible day at work so I think it's at least a little town indicative that Hopkirk and Hectic were sensitive to me feeling a little more dour than usual today? At least, I feel like it should be town indicative. I'm not really giving the same points to Mastina given she came in after Hopkirk and her approach feels a little less curious/thoughtful than Hopkirk's wtr to my slot. although I don't scum read her.

innocent villager I ended up switching my vote to after just one too many posts that I felt were... a little forced? Like to me, the "hahaha I'm scum no I'm not let's be silly guys" stuff was fun for the first few pages but IV seemed intent on continuing it for just a bit longer. It just felt like it crossed the line of someone trying too hard to continue the vibing shit posts while also making it 100% explicit that "I'm just shit posting guys." I dunno, just slightly more self aware than everyone else who was casually shit posting.

It also felt like an intentional choice? Is that a right read IV? It stood out to me and I'm wondering if you were trying to accomplish something specific with the "guys I'm scum" shit posts or if you just didn't want to let go of the fun

Also I'm not sure I vibe with your jump on Cephrir as I think interpreting "don't post your reads list every page" as "Cephrir must hate mastina's reads" feels like just looking for something to attack

I don't have any real thoughts on anyone else yet. OkaPoka feels the same as last game but I don't think that actually means anything for their slot. I thought the worst's pop in was kind of weird on a gut level? but I assume that's just because duck hasn't read the game yet.

i kind of like the first point but it kind of reads as a bit too 'this is my good reasons for doing what i was doing, i'm doing good things'
agree on herc
can you talk more about your vibes on ythan? i feel like 83 sounds the same as they did last game tonally
hope things are looking up for you soon
could you point out what IV stuff you mean? interacting with him at the time i didn't get a feeling he was forcing it at all. everyone who doesn't like IV seems to be people who came in afterwards?

i mean, because she shitted up last game by making boatloads of massive, irrelevant posts about stuff that had happened 80 pages ago, and i would like her to stop doing that.

i don't get your problem with this? are you saying it's lamist or just throwing shade?

[Hopkirk]

(It helps Hercule's entrance was garbage, but honestly I was just waiting to Mastina to post one of these lists so I can do my standard Mastina play which is just to eliminate players in inverse order of her preference.)

It wins the game more than it loses the game, and that's a fact.

her n you have some history?

There is one rule with Mastina's reads.

Take her read list, and start killing from towniest to scumiest in order.

You will win the game before you lose it, almost always. Without fail.

i don't like the bracketed part in 327 at all. it feels off and there's a crazy amount of people shading mastina right now

thumb s up i guess you do you

I encourage you to join, though I know you probably won't go for it just based off Mastina being a 0% read magnet.

With that in mind, I point you to Hercule's entrance, which was god awful.

in we gooo baby

i can vibe with this but you need to confess your crush on mastina

VOTE: hercule

careful, Greyice is gonna get ya if you try and ship Mastina/LLD

helloooooooooooooooooooo my friends it feels great to be here. i made a vocaroo reaction to my role pm but implosion said they would prefer for me not to post it so.

i will try to reel in the insufferably lamisty energy i exude but i do just want to express one thought that's fucking funny to me. i kept referring to my team as the 4/4 town gods last game cuz i told them i wanted everyone to embody our full team flipping town and let it seep into everyone's game cuz i was the only one who flipped mafia and i wanted to manifest myself as town. and then IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED lmaooo 4/4 town gods for real. they all got scumflips on d1 so time for us to do the same.

but still fuck ABR

this is the more damning post in my mind. Pre-writing is one thing if you don;t know your alignment, but this post has to have come post alignment knowledge by definition.

And it's fucking attrocious.

i townread that post because it makes no sense. like i've reread it twice just now and have no idea what herc is trying to say there. it outright doesn't give any vibes of 'prewritten' because prewritten would make more sense. it also sounds kinda nonsensical which doesn't feel like scum trying to look good in an opening vibewise

of things that could've been prewrote before thread unlock, he could've also definitely had 1 and 2 prewritten, at least 2's ideas could've been pre-thought out and he just had to translate it to words

Even if 2 is pre-written, him sayign "i recorded a audio file of my reaction to my role pm" is confirmable that Hercule knows his alignment at the time of writing it, unless you're suggesting he's lying about that.... which would also make him scummy, so I'm not sure where the objection is.

from my experience of you in our last game, you don't seem to understand the concept of 'people might be joking'. y'know, the one where you hard pushed me as scum because i dropped a joke-post restriction in an open setup where there's no post restrictions after 2 days of the game because it was clearly impossible to keep up the joke-post restriction long term?

did you actually read 'i recorded an audio file' as serious here? that feels so over the top not-getting-an-obvious-joke that it might be town indicative...

[Hopkirk]

Before I read anything I would like to apologize to everyone for my BS reads in the cancelled game. Shame on me.

I would especially like to apologize to DGB for tunneling, but I would also apologize to the rest of the Town (or should I say "who were Town) for misreading hercule (this one goes especially to mastina), Xtoxm (almost everybody) and ABR (I don't remember who SR's him and who hard TR'd him)

But the ONE good SR I had was on Cephrir.

With that being said, I am TOWN this time around too. (mastina can still keep me in the bottom third of her read list, I don't mind)

And now.. the waltz!

Spoiler:

without quoting five long posts, your vibes feel off here. you seem overly manic in a way that feels kinda fake/trying to look overenthusiastic

(also as a sidenote i think you've taken the concept of

shit

posting a little too literally in that pic for me only)

Let's just all quotestripe unimportant posts from 8 pages ago so that the game will never actually start.

Pretty indifferent to the hercule thing.

how do you read A50 right now

It's in poor taste.

agree with this btw. the first time you made the joke i glazed over it. the second time you made it i actively didn't exhale any air

[Hopkirk]

And.. I'm all quote up. Tool me only 11 posts (compared to -say- IV's 90+) to show my true colours. (Although

I am not as very transparently Town as I was the time before

).

Time to milk you all for the TRs on me though (don't forget to ask your teammates. Should I go quote that post from the old thread?)

idk if this is locktown or lockscum

not to steal cephrir's schtick but I'm not entirely sure that there was one single alignment indicative line in all of those posts

?
that's an odd view considering your wall earlier. there's a lot of stuff from A50 that feels a bit tonally off to me

auro's opinion on hercule talking about his scum playstyle is that it's town indicitive
he says that scum can steal a march on a possible question about it by posting in this way, but that it would be unnecessary to go into such depth
herc believes that he will be able to earn townreads from the way he plays, which, if scum, would require confidence on hercs part that he can both make a substantial change in the way plays scum, and also get townread doing it
he also thinks scum herc would know such a play is unlikely to repay him well

he criticizes llds push on hercs 2nd post, saying repeated attacks have been made but no explanation of why it is scum indicative
why scum, as opposed to exhilarated town? does she expect the hercule is disingenuous in his belief that his team has players that are strong in town roles?

he is confused at the number of people treating mastina in an insulting way, and notes that he has mastina as locktown (????)
feels that agar reacted disproportionately to mastina calling him null, however he's not sure if it's alignment indicitive

at this point he offers a readslist:
town: mastina, hercule, iv, ceph
scum: agar, lld, dgb

his stomach feeling on a50 is scum. i've told him that i veto any d1 a50 vote wishes he has.

why are you exclusively giving Auro's reads of the game? personally i want to hear what flavor leaf thinks

It's crazy that you went right back to only posting Auro's opinions, and you

just

got tripped up on that in the last game.

I guess you guys were disconnected and didn't ever understand why I was pushing you?

Also, these townreads and scumreads make me queasy. Something about the charisma values and the reads, it feels like a scum point of view.

+town

[Hopkirk]

he also thinks scum herc would know such a play is unlikely to repay him well

can auro expand on this specifically

I don't really follow why that would be the case

hercule could have written a less detailed catalogue and then subscribed to other tendencies of his typical scum playstyle. so if he is scum, he need either present a factually incorrect outline, or holds sufficient belief that he can fool town by taking up a new way of playing as scum, whilst being aware that the amount of wifom involved makes it a comparatively frail gain. he considers both of these scenarios as low probability, with the more likely scenario being that he is speaking without chains, as a result of being town, and that there is no agenda behind what he's done.

is this auro explaining it or what you think?

IV, Lamb, Dunn and Dann seem pre townie. dunn and IV to a higher degree than the other two i'd say

i kinda went through the first pages in a haze and i might've misread mastina's initial read list but idk how she came to a TL on hopkirk from that first post of his so i thought that was a bit off, unless it was just including the general gist of his early posting and not just that first one.

on a sidenote being referred to in 8 different iterations of the read list as Winter Flakes (Alt of Uncrowned) was kinda funny

hi Winter Flakes (Alt of Uncrowned), clearly i have no ability to read you and i'm going to stop trying before it starts to get embarrassing. is there anyone here who's good at reading you that i can sheep?
also how's ydrasse reading me?

To put it another way, discrediting mastina this early in the game is Scummy McScummerson.

[Hopkirk]

i'll just quote that again shall i

To put it another way, discrediting mastina this early in the game is Scummy McScummerson.

are you scumreading everyone shading mastina?

[Hopkirk]

not that i have anything against you auro, i just like a bit of flavor

[Hopkirk]

the way that the playlist includes numbers and team names that i have to manually remove hurts me

[Hopkirk]

i was going to do a poe list but hectic is telling me he disagrees with a lot of my reads

[Hopkirk]

Hectic's thoughts (enjoy them while we’ve got them, i asked Flopz but he just said lol and insulted me a bit when I suggested that he might want to read the game)
- Herc’s ‘4 town gods’ comment felt fake because it wasn’t funny. Herc said it was funny and hectic disagrees.
- liked Dann's RVS analysis as parts felt natural. It didn’t feel forced/he wasn’t rushing to get involved and look town. Hectic disagrees with my dislike because ‘it being off in terms of vibes’ is less important than dann getting good things out of it.
-A50 usually easiest to read when being over the top/having fun- feels town. we talked about this one a bit more and hectic agreed it feels a bit more over the top and forced than normal- but that not having much scumhunting in it probably makes it town indicative

[Hopkirk]

@Hopkirk

I'd say the only person in this plist who'd be able to meta read me correctly is the worst

wait are you not even going to throw any shade at me after i admitted that? you did last time...

[Hopkirk]

first fourish pages still feel natural vibes on a reread

[Hopkirk]

imeaniwasstilltryingtosortyou butididntlikeyouyeah

[Hopkirk]

how do you feel about A50?

[Hopkirk]

can you talk more about your vibes on ythan? i feel like 83 sounds the same as they did last game tonally
hope things are looking up for you soon
could you point out what IV stuff you mean? interacting with him at the time i didn't get a feeling he was forcing it at all. everyone who doesn't like IV seems to be people who came in afterwards?

Uhhh, I don't get the vibes anymore. I think me starting on Ythan just came from me skimming the thread while at work and looking for one specific thing and really hoping to find it. Ythan going "vibe vibe vibe" felt to me, like a bit of a forced joke given talking about vibes is the easiest way to vibe in this playerlist

I need to stop saying vibe. Basically, I just voted him because I didn't vibe with his joke.

Thank you btw.

Maybe forcing is the wrong phrase? It felt like he was trying too hard or just going a little too far in some areas. Every reaction to a vote on him felt like a distinctive "okay engage memey reaction to this vote," which at a certain point (especially when I voted him) felt like just hiding what he was really thinking about the game. #134, #130, #135 just felt a little over-explainy from him. Like yes, I didn't assume IV was potentially role fishing until he made that first post. The second post I just didn't vibe with as a joke. The third post was abundantly evident by what he was posting and it just feels a little too on the nose in the "yeah I'm in meme mode don't take anything I say seriously."

But also, it's entirely possible I just wasn't in a super jokey mood yesterday and that's why I didn't vibe so much. My thoughts on the IV slot have turned around entirely since he started posting actual content.

what are your reads looking like atm? i think you've dropped a few of the ones we're discussing here?
i kind of like that you're going back on 'vibe' reads and saying it's because of headspace yesterday/you like them in retrospect rather than sticking hard to them. feels like something you're less likely to fake + hectic liked the approach there too

VOTE: A50

he is confused at the number of people treating mastina in an insulting way, and notes that he has mastina as locktown (????)

They fear mastina - right or wrong, she'll dig her heels in and they're afraid she'll be right.

is anyone treating mastina in an insulting way besides cephrir asking her to not post a reads list after reading every single page?

LLD- thinks mastina's reads are terrible in general
Ceph- hates walls. i assume he's a massive fan of open-plan housing
Mastina - commenting about how her reads last game were simply inexcusable
Agar- his shouting at a mastina-shaped cloud felt off

?
that's an odd view considering your wall earlier. there's a lot of stuff from A50 that feels a bit tonally off to me

I was just mad about the mostly content-less quote stripes

are there any specific lines that felt off to you?

I didn't get a read on A50 until very late in the last game, I just tend to skim this type of posting from him

general vibes from skimming it, i'll look if there's anything super specific i can point to but it's tonal vibes tbh

@hop posts directed at me

If you can't understand why I dont want the game to be filled with massive walls that dont say anything, I can't help you. This is self evident to me. I'm not interested in getting dragged into dunking on mastina more; I dont have a high opinion of her mafia skill level and that's all there is to it, and I am surprised this is such a controversial idea

I am leaning town on a50 right now based on comparing him to tenet. But I dont have much faith in my ability to read him.

i found it useful last game in sorting mastina
what do you like on a50?

I wonder if the best way to play this game is to throw last game in the trash. Scum will be hyper aware they'll be compared to how they played there. It is a bit useful for getting baselines on people I dont know (e.g. I know I may be predisposed to scumread winter flakes (alt of uncrowned) and should take disliking his posts with a grain of salt) but

being visibly different might not actually be a scumtell for that reason.

Dont have anyone I'm especially excited about voting rn so i wont.

what's your read on herc? i checked and you haven't mentioned him

[Hopkirk]

pretty sure that by page ~200 all of the posts are going to be the word vibe repeated over and over

Spoiler: reads

innocentvillager - vibing!
mastina - performative/vibing?
AGar - vibing?
Hopkirk - vibing!
Xtoxm - performative/vibing?
the worst - performative?
Winter Flakes - vibing?
Lady Lambdadelta - vibing?
hercule - performative/vibing?
Okapoka - vibing?
DGB - performative/vibing?
jjh - vibing?
Cephrir - vibing?
Ythan - performative/vibing?
Almost50 - performative??
Dunnstral - vibing

i hate to be that guy, but roughly how are you using vibe here?

psyching myself up to read that wall. it doesn't help that i've started drinking

[Hopkirk]

i townlean hop as well, peta had told me they hadn't been mafia in years and I think their intro would have been more stilted or forced as scum. verdict is out on iv. ceph I think seems very similar in tone to last game, I would have expected a bit more visible excitement to flip town but I'm considering to possibly just be their personality for now.

ooh, I didn’t think I’d get a chance to say this since I said it last game and nobody was likely to say ‘I’ve never played with scum hop though’ while reading me. I haven’t rolled scum in 2-3 years, was a tryhard-non-memer back then, and I’m stitting at I want to say a 27 game townstreak (inc.offsite). I love saing that
can you talk more about the ceph comment? I think I said something like that too but idk if I stand by it

one thing about this post though: I had the exact same thought. I feel like it's pretty obvious that we have a previous game to compare and that scum are going to have to try to emulate their towngame from last game. Idk if the observation itself is that towny to me.

how do you think scum you would have entered the thread?

I wanted to put these together. @Lady can you explain what you think is atrocious about that post? I have more to say but I want to hear you out first.

why did you say this then respond to her post where she explains what she doesn’t like? you must have read 342 since you’d added it to the earlier multiquote

Whatever fuck u

wow. fuck you too

i’m a massive simp for self-meta

[Hopkirk]

i don't think i get the Dunn townreads yet and i TR him like 5 pages in last time

my ethos is performative vibing

are you defining vibing the same way as Dann?

hi friendo

i'm still kinda waiting for stuff to happen. im not super convinced by the cases against you or IV right now. my gut feeling is that scum may not be posting much right now, because what i am seeing is largely decent, but who knows.

the game is moderately fun so far, so that's nice

nice

To me hercule feels over the top. I don't know if its the avatar change or what but im getting a little more flavor leaf from him when koba (rip) told me he was more of a hyper nsg

Also hercule, no worries about koba metaing you last game?

how do you feel about A50?
@Herc - how do you think this game compares to your town meta as Koba would describe it? you definitely feel very different. is that town!different or decidedtobe!different or vibintthistime!diffierent. you feel a lot more loose to me

My three tenets are now;
high accuracy
high efficiency
low effort

have you tried high accuracy low efficiency high effort, it's super fun

[Hopkirk]

vibing = towny
performative = scummy

it's not an exact translation but close enough
the one's that are both I'm either mixed or explicitly null on

i wasn't sure if you meant towny with a different word or vibing = having fun

[Hopkirk]

… i think I’m scumreading A50 in large part for the sheer quantity of emojis on page

FTR, my pronoun is qewvueahb e'pjyp ns' ]tl / rup oouph /lm nmblbnbi

I also SR'd the 4 of them (and ONLY the 4 of them) just before I saw the thread was locked (I usually check my inbox first)

Pocket attempt successful. You have now officially pocketed me.

I'll ask again: Are you not "happy this time" because IV didn't roll Town, or because he DID??

quoting emojis is hard, but they make the posting/jokes feel pretty forced. Like he’s drawing too much attention to it and trying to make everything visibly a joke. It just feels like… too tryhardy? I didn’t vibe with it
…plus he copied like

three

jokes I’ve already made and will be hearing from my lawyer

Although I am not as very transparently Town as I was the time before

i don’t like this after thinking more about it

[Hopkirk]

the thing about a50 is my meta on him is woefully outdated and he has shifted a lot since I last recalled him.

im inclined to let others form an opinion on a50 for me

he is however, an ultimate wild card, ask hectic about how i resolve wildcards

dayvig shots?

[Hopkirk]

but what if they're scum

[Hopkirk]

didn't think of that did you? yeah

[Hopkirk]

i am refreshing constantly and starting to feel like you're letting me get drunk on my own for nothing

[Hopkirk]

you've been vibing we're good fam

[Hopkirk]

can't you just like solve the game or something? that goes for you too jjh927. let's all do readslists

[Hopkirk]

Good vibes- IV, Herc, Oka, DGB
I can’t sort -Winter Flakes (this person is an alternate account of the user “uncrowned”, Ythan
Maaaaaybe? – Dann, Mastina

[Hopkirk]

who was trolling you in the last game?

[Hopkirk]

you feel like you're vibing and that makes you feel good

[Hopkirk]

you're my spicy vibe

[Hopkirk]

are you pro or anti sheeping

[Hopkirk]

how about the circumstance where it's this exact circumstance and hop wasn't being metaphorical

[Hopkirk]

nah I’m actually not self conscious believe it or not lollll

but one thing I hate as either alignment is any sort of heated 1v1 so I am anti-confrontational. Maybe more as scum

oh shit i love a good toxic 1v1

[Hopkirk]

oh wait aw

[Hopkirk]

what do you like on a50?

He feels more at ease and is actually posting and playing mafia somewhat. I just came off a scumgame with him where he basically lurked

Could certainly be playing better this game though

do you think A50 would hard lurk in team mafia after finishing a scum game where he lurked & having been active as town in part 1? this feels like it isn't super useful unless A50 hates scum to the extent he just won't play it
i feel like he's trying to be overly at east. the tone feels different/fit-in-ee

[Hopkirk]

you're online

[Hopkirk]

you feel hostile

[Hopkirk]

Mastina agrees with me on a spooky mind-meld level in 266 and 273. can you talk more about the reads are coming from mastina?

You mean on Dannflor, right?

Basically, it boils down to a very, very, strong sense of deja vu: I was reading Dann's posts last game and while they looked scummy initially (convincing me he could not be scum), he was by far one of the towniest players in the last game.

This game, Dann's entrance didn't look scummy initially, and quite the opposite...Dann's entrance into the game looked like he was trying to appear power-town to slip early on into town players' townblocs. The nature and tone of Dannflor this game is entirely different from last game where Dann was town. If Dann was town there and yet is entirely different here, the question would be why?

And that is compounded by my experience with Dannflor's scumgames--his posting in this game oozes, radiates, the scumness from the times I've seen him as scum.

I get that Dannflor is a reasonably strong scum player. (He may have disagreed with me calling him Don Corelone level a scum player, but he's still not night-and-day utterly incompetent at scum to the point of being a huge burden to his teammates; he is still capable of putting on strong scum performances.)
But his entrance into this game looks like the entrance of a strong scum player, not the entrance of a town player of his caliber.

And all of the content he has given since then has looked, objectively reasonable, but containing certain perspective flaws that I simply don't believe would be happening if Dannflor was town here.

mind meld was also about all of the early game vibes since i think i'd outright said every read that you had there inc. dann
what are the perspective flaws/slips? i don't think you've mentioned those and those are at the top of my list for actually-alignment-indactive

oh god how many votes does dannflor have?

?

[Hopkirk]

Look, you want to kill me? Burden of Proficiency me. Give me one day to decide who dies, and if they flip town, kill me.

i was planning to give you two

my entire experience with LLD is her tunneling me for garbage tier reasons (possibly the worst case i've ever seen. she essentially had me as lockscum because i was faking a post restriction in an open game where it was clearly impossible to keep it going for long then dropping the post restriction to get more serious when i needed to do a

50 page

catchup followed by no further attempts to sort/engage with me) it feels like people have a high opinion of her towngame?

Oka where should I vote?

why are you asking oka instead of sheeping me...

[Hopkirk]

no other takes outside of what I've posted

@tw

ladys frustration with Mastina comes off townie to me

?

[Hopkirk]

idk how to feel about mastina not mentioning me by name (i think exclusively not mentioning me) when she was talking about people who she thinks are better/worse at scum

@tw and Dann

nah I think it's more likely to come from town than scum

I think scum would be more inclined to just dismiss it and express a bit of frustration but not go that in depth

this is really surface level? how much exp do you have with LLD?

im offended you dont think winter flakes (alt of uncrowned) categorises as a competent scumhunter

sometimes it's better not to tell the truth, you know?

imma go cry now brb

I wasn't even voting you, and I wasn't hard-pushing you at the time; why was me, of all people, scumreading you but not pushing you strongly, enough of an irritant?

I think I merged you with Hopkirk

i'm going to take this as a compliment

[Hopkirk]

Now that I've addressed rampant fucking egotism and Mastina can't hammer me with "see LLD doesn't want you to know how good she is"

Can we move on and pressure hercule a little more? None of his catch up was at all inspiring, and I'm really curious where people's townreads on the dude come from.

the amount of ego projection in your previous post hurt to read. i couldn't finish it

I like xtoxm.

I never did finish my skim but I may not.

If LLD is scum, Hercule almost certainly is. I don't see LLD putting down all her credibility on something she doesn't feel will flip scum. If Hercule flips town, LLD's read accuracy will be discounted at best.

so are you saying scum!LLD comes in driving a bus d1 and expects it to go to a lethal or that scum!LLD plans to throw some sus on Herc then start pushing something else? it doesn't feel SvS

[Hopkirk]

-A50 usually easiest to read when being over the top/having fun- feels town. we talked about this one a bit more and hectic agreed it feels a bit more over the top and forced than normal- but that not having much scumhunting in it probably makes it town indicative

For the umpteenth hundred time: Just bc I'm not

posting

my reads doesn't mean I don't have them. BIG difference.

In effect; I refuse to be TR'd based on this faulty assumption. Please find a better reason to TR me if you will.

hectic eventually dropped his townread on you but that might have been to get me to stop arguing that i didn't like it because he couldn't be bothered continuing. he didn't outright say you were scum tbh, just admitted that you did feel somewhat over the top when i was saying how you felt really over the top

how do you read A50 right now

there's a lot of stuff from A50 that feels a bit tonally off to me

-A50 usually easiest to read when being over the top/having fun- feels town.

how do you feel about A50?

VOTE: A50

what do you like on a50?

how do you feel about A50?

i think I’m scumreading A50 in large part for the sheer quantity of emojis on page

do you think A50 would hard lurk in team mafia after finishing a scum game where he lurked & having been active as town in part 1? this feels like it isn't super useful unless A50 hates scum to the extent he just won't play it

@Hopkirk: Why are you ignoring me?

despite this A50 seems to have gotten 0 attention while i've been away from the thread. literally nothing

i don’t like this after thinking more about it

Yes, because as Scum I would make sure to let everybody know that I am. GOOS THINKING.

bad posting

[Hopkirk]

ok so here's version 1 of my tier list, feels decent for now

Hard Town

mastina

Towny

Hopkirk
DrippingGoofBall

Townlean

OkaPoka
Xtoxm

Have Said Or Done Something Towny

innocentvillager
Agar
Dunnstral

Have Not Said Or Done Something Towny

Jjh
Dannflor
Cephrir
Winter Flakes
Lady Lambdadelta
the worst
Ythan
Titus

Kinda Sus

Almost50

pedit: honestly tho like they just talked about how epic of a scumgame they have and how they're the queen of AtE like what are we even gonna get from voting there, I feel like A50 wagon has better chance to gain traction and LLD is one of those players that if they're scum you have to case the fuck out of them after flipping a partner or two. butttt yolo i'll vote with you because you're my friend

VOTE: Lady LambdaDelta

why is your vote on LLD instead of A50 here? you put him in a category all on his own then went on to case LLD?

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: LLD

[Hopkirk]

tbh i had to stop myself voting LLD purely based on that ego post

[Hopkirk]

then i remembered i don't like her content

[Hopkirk]

doing some tft with hectic. i might get some thoughts about the game during that

[Hopkirk]

gth

{innocentvillager}
{mastina}
{OkaPoka}
{Hopkirk, hercule, DGB}
{everyone else???}
{LLD, Dann, A50} sure i will sheep the PoE that has been floating around whatever for now i can't read Dann or LLD whatsoever

good readslist

gth

{innocentvillager}
{mastina}
{OkaPoka}
{Hopkirk, hercule, DGB}
{everyone else???}
{LLD, Dann, A50} sure i will sheep the PoE that has been floating around whatever for now i can't read Dann or LLD whatsoever

I'd also kill this reads list in a heart beat, so I'm happy to so IV today as well, honestly.

...

shine ing stars need to carry me

@lld ok sorry i personally respect RC's play a lot but if there's bad blood that's understandable

Okay, three things.

Firstly, RC is a bad person, and I'd rather not be compared to that.

Secondly, RC isn't all that great at mafia, but that's kind of besides the point.

Thirdly, I've played in games with RC, so saying I'm RC would kind of be implicitly implying I am a cheater, which I take a high amount of offense to.

You get one warning. I don't care if it's a joke. You get one.

so i had Flopz right here on voice chat. he'd taken a quick literal three minutes to read the entire thread and he got even further than i had. he was going to post his reads... going to... then he read this post. do you know how much of a RadiantCowbells fan Flopz is? he constantly brings up in irl conversations in real life that RC is basically his idol. he says that he would have printed out pictures of RC's avatar to put as posters on his wall if he didn't think zaiden would mock him for that. anyway, when he heard this 'vile, despicable, and not good' representation of his hero he went ballistic. he's refusing to give ANY of his reads until LLD apologizes to RC and makes good restitution on the defamation of his holy image. well flopz has shared one read, but it's more about someone's character/personality/terribleness than it is about their alignment and it was a really toxic post (even be Flopz's standards...' so i'm not going to post it for the sake of not being a terrible person

Almost50 can talk to Gamma Emerald to see where I am coming from here, if Gamma remembers.

We're not reading each other's games and we certainly aren't even talking in the team PT (or DC channel). I do harbour some suspicions of LLD (which I could buy independently), but you are now my biggest concern (I think you're the Scum team leader). I mist suspect Hopkirk & Oka Poka though.

My preliminary solve would be: Hopkirk, Winter Flakes, mastina, OkaPoka (not in any particular order)

Thank you for listening, Now I go back to doing my own thing.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I actually don't hate this. I won't get to scumreading mastina for a while yet, though. I think I have a method of reading her later, or at least it worked once.

Also, the more A50 posts the more I think he's town, and since that read is inconvenient for scum as they would very much like him to be one of their miselims, I plan to sit on it for a bit.

-town if A50 is town. feels weirdly pockety

[Hopkirk]

don't think flakes is necessarily town but he's being a lot bolder this game which is... something?

hey why ducky over anyone minus mastina in the a50 solve

i haven't liked his posts. i guess like, when i say "i don't hate this solve" i half mean "i expected a50 to gun for people i expressly disagree with gunning for" -
winter is a person of interest, he is playing better than last game where i saw him as a necessary miselim on my path to victory and he was just showing up to post terse nothings and i don't entirely know what to make of that yet.

hopkirk and you are both less fun this game

. i want to give you time because, well, i like you and am hoping you'll be town and we can play together.
basically i guess you could say that whole list was scumleans for me right now but i'd rather vote someone who actually has votes on them?
i know this post was meandering and probably self contradictory.

that said ducky being not here for a few days was something i probably should have let stop me from voting him right now since it's not going to do much good.

ooh look, we've found someone who can't tell when i'm using subtle humor. want me to explain all the jokes you might have missed?
i find 'hopkirk isn't being funny' worse than i do 'hopkirk is scummy' by a long shot. i'm going to toxic 1v1 you so hard that the level of toxicity unleashed would bankrupt BP

@LLD my team thinks you might just be scum shitpushing me, can you engage with me a bit as to what you don't like about my posts?

No. Your team can stuff it and you can eat rope.

now that's what i call good faith scumhunting

It is. You're scum. Why do I need to convince you or your team of anything? Why should I take the time to have a long protracted nonsense conversation where you get to gum up the thread with minutia about how definitely I'm misunderstanding you and you're so town.

You are always going to say you're town.

I think you're scum and I'm not going to change that opinion by arguing it with you. If you're so town, prove it by actually doing something townie.

this feels like exactly how i remember town-LLD wrong-pushing me though. i'm assuming you're like that independent of alignment?

[Hopkirk]

This isn't a great answer. I know you're helping me apply pressure but you're mixed, so you're entertaining new targets.

I'm saying your target selection is quesitonable and I'm curious where it is coming from.

I am having a very hard time getting reads in this game. Total, I have about six I feel somewhere close to good about.

I am trying to slowly expand that slot by slot. A50 and Winter Flakes have been more present (or at least more present when I am also in the thread) than either AGar or Ythan and I'm more interested in getting reads on people I can actually interact with. Although, as an aside, I don't think I'm scum reading A50 anymore.

is six reads bad at this point? i don't have many more since my poe is very fluid

ceph's recent posts are +town and Hercule's recent posts are +scum

can you sell me town ceph

I do think that Ceph's empty vote on the worst is a bit sus considering the worst is AFK for three days and we won't be getting any reactions, what is the purpose

why?

does anyone reading this find this behavior to be towny from LLD? Open question to the table

this type of appeal to the crowd shit is not towny, hercule

I feel like you could be literally doing anything else in this game besides trying to appear the good-faith half of the LLD vs. hercule 1v1 and instead you're trying to do something that I think you should *know* is unproductive

Like you trying to engage LLD here doesn't feel like you actually want to solve her, it feels like you want to show yourself off as towny

well I am trying to crowdsource metareads on LLD because the one member of my team who has meta on her has feelings about it but doesn't want me to express them or even say their name because of "bad blood"

that really didn't sound like you were asking for a metaread. it sounded like you were asking 'do people townread her' since you didn't mention meta anywhere. i don't like this line of interaction/the explination about a teammate's meta read on her afterward doesn't feels kind of overexplainy

okay but the way you phrased that whole post sounds like you're trying to set up a dichotomy of "I'm the good-faith player here just trying to understand you LLD and you are the bad-faith player"

like it's very p e r f o r m a t i v e and "does anyone reading this find this behavior to be towny from LLD" is a direct appeal to the crowd that feels more like you're looking for a specific answer than actually trying to get a meta read from anyone

LLD's entire style is bad faith

[Hopkirk]

ABHAHAHAAHHAHAHAAHHAHA

Ceph.

CEPH.

He's scum complaining about being caught for the wrong reasons.

It's open now. He's upset not because he's town being pressured, but because he's scum and he doesn't think he should be suspected for what he's done so far.

You can see it right? It's fucking obvious.

yeah, i can see it.

i'm also hyper aware that voting him here is what i'd desperately want to do to get your attention off me if i were scum here, and that this post is probably the exact post i would make to try to get away with it.

VOTE: hercule

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

i think i dislike ceph more than LLD in this exchange. herc still feels town in it. the frustration feels genuine and he didn't get frustrated when i pushed him last game, he just talked me out of it

It's a tricky situation if you're town when a thread-dominating player leads a significant wagon on you and you aren't 100% sure if they're scum for doing it

That's been the vibe I got

i like this perspective

[Hopkirk]

it should be, though

you will legitimately see my lld read flip if she doesn't catch scum in a couple tries

SvS/TvS? i don't think Ceph/LLD is tvt. ceph's approach to the wagon doesn't read well

ugh why is it so much harder to get reads this game than last game? is anyone else feeling the same way? i feel like it should be easier because we've all played with each other before but whenever i see people and think "yeah they're playing similar/not similar to last game" i just wifom the fuck out of myself. maybe the goal is just to forget about last game? but that doesn't seem right either when the info is there and relevant. im probably overcomplicating it somehow

+town

Hercules ISO is pretty townie to me ngl

turns out my initial thought on him was actually a misread on my behalf as well lmao

i don't think i got any vibes from any of your posts there

[Hopkirk]

Basically, yes. It looks good, it looks town, but is it actually town?

I don't think so; it is the type of post I would expect Dannflor to make as scum to look town.

Alright, just is vase I am wrong I want to engage you about this. If it looks Town, why are you shading it on D1? Why not go hunt for some SCUMMY looking posts instead? This is part of why I now SR (not the whole deal but a part of it). You are trying to paint Town-looking spots as still having high Scum equity, which is like.. "let's eliminate the townier-looking slots early just in case they may still flip Scum after all".

i'm liking Mastina's reads even more...

@lld no I see your point and I hadn't factored in that Hercule was voting you back which yeah implies he thinks you're scummy

I do think there's a genuine aspect of frustration at the way you're approaching him but when considering that he's counter voting you, I do think it lessens the towniness of that.

I think the dismantling the wagon point is also a decent one as I got that vibe when Hercule reached out to Ceph I think it was saying it was bad to follow your. It takes away from some of that "lack of survivalism" i was citing in my defense of him

I still hesitate to change the read because I do sort of get a fluid vibe from him where his real time interactions come off quite strongly to me?
do you think this is just a by-product of his posting style or do you think even tonally he reads scummy?

I think you know that I think he's scum, and I know you're asking this because you're fishing for more interaction here to process it yourself, but the truth is I don't really give a damn about his last game or how he sounded there. He looks scummy HERE. I think he seems tonally scummy here. If you want to do the research and examine your own bias, I think that's reasonable, but I don't put stock in meta, especially in a game where a player can be coached by 3 other players if needed.

i can understand why LLD would choose to hardwagon (literally any slot she felt like) but i don't really get the other votes on herc. his entire approach is the inverse of last game. he was ridiculously rigid and (until his interaction with LLD) he seemed to be having fun. i guess scum!herc could have felt under pressure from the start last game, but then he should have been caught from the start if that's such a SR and people like Koba have meta that would say that so that feels reachy and he's just town

[Hopkirk]

hectic eventually dropped his townread on you but that might have been to get me to stop arguing that i didn't like it because he couldn't be bothered continuing. he didn't outright say you were scum tbh, just admitted that you did feel somewhat over the top when i was saying how you felt really over the top

Why do you think "over the top" is a scum tell for me?

because over the top doesn't feel genuine and genuine posting is +town posting. you feel a lot less natural than before

bad posting

You are hopless, tunneled, or outright Scum (guess which I'm thinking is more likely)

why are you acting like my read on you is closer to 100% scum than 30-40%?

Jingle does say that A50 is town about 85% of the time here, and would deign to hard defend him D1 if it came to that. He thinks he's significantly townier this game than the last. He likes that A50 recognizes that Jingle would town read him.

Jingle slightly leans town on Ceph but finds him too fencesitty to get a more confident read. He was null reading Hercule early on but also found the reactions I thought were bad, very bad. He scum read LLD early but town leans her I think? He also doesn't mind the pressure on the worst given he feels so empty. I kinda agree but also the worst just hasn't been around so I don't know how much of a read that really is. Also thinks mastina and AGar are pretty town.

Myself, mastina keeps skyrocketing in my town reads the more I think about it. I would still put Hopkirk and IV in there. I trust Jingle's read and honestly Cephrir's read on A50 more than my own. I found Winter Flakes' latest posts pretty towny. WF I know you asked why I'm picking at you this game when I didn't last game, and the fact is I did scum read you last game, my attention was just on more important targets. The fact that I feel like I'm scum reading you for the same reasons as last game probably means I'm off base here though.

I slightly lean LLD town but probably not as much as Jingle. I'm cautious about her but I did like her progression on me. Wary of pocket though. Xtoxm is becoming a stronger town read too with mastina. I still stand by my earlier Auro read, and I think the fact that xtoxm/Auro actually seem to really care about something here when they didn't at all last game is an good sign for their alignment.

I'm actually very wary of Okapoka because they've posted enough I feel like I should be able to read them by now but I just don't. That's a similar read I had on Cephrir for a while last game which is why it worries me. I feel like Oka is a lot less motivated here in general, but I can't really nail down whether that's alignment indicative. idk Oka is there anything you particularly really care about right now? Or are you just kinda waiting for something to jump out at you

also @the worst, jingle wanted me to ask you if you could take a look at a one of the players that you could read by tone? He didn't name any specific names but wanted to offer that as a starting point if you're struggling to find one. Personally I'd appreciate anything on IV, cephrir, or jjh

anyway sorry for the truncated reads but I've just started getting chills and a fever which is kinda freaking me out so I might dip for a day a two

i doubt scum!A50 asks scum!dann to get his partner-who-can-meta-read-him like this and i think jingle's reads are really good from the 2-3 times i've seen them. either alignment of dann makes A50 more town here

xtoxm's auto posting is town

[Hopkirk]

he's refusing to give ANY of his reads until LLD apologizes to RC and makes good restitution on the defamation of his holy image.

Yeah that totally makes sense.

he's a pretty extreme guy

-town if A50 is town. feels weirdly pockety

LOL @ at idea Ceph would choose to pocket ne of all.

?

so i had Flopz right here on voice chat. he'd taken a quick literal three minutes to read the entire thread and he got even further than i had. he was going to post his reads... going to... then he read this post. do you know how much of a RadiantCowbells fan Flopz is? he constantly brings up in irl conversations in real life that RC is basically his idol. he says that he would have printed out pictures of RC's avatar to put as posters on his wall if he didn't think zaiden would mock him for that. anyway, when he heard this 'vile, despicable, and not good' representation of his hero he went ballistic. he's refusing to give ANY of his reads until LLD apologizes to RC and makes good restitution on the defamation of his holy image. well flopz has shared one read, but it's more about someone's character/personality/terribleness than it is about their alignment and it was a really toxic post (even be Flopz's standards...' so i'm not going to post it for the sake of not being a terrible person

you should probably keep this out of the game unless your goal is toxicity

you can't possibly read that as something that happened

i find 'hopkirk isn't being funny' worse than i do 'hopkirk is scummy' by a long shot.

that's pretty stupid, since you apparently think i'm just not getting the joke, but i guess you're so couched in irony that anything i try to interact with you on could turn out to have been an ironic joke all along

i think you missed multiple jokes in the post you've been quoting parts of too...

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Hopkirk

This doesn't make it to D2. Bad//fake reads +

alibis to avoid having -allegedly- Flopz reads posted

= Scum going for -what they think are- easy targets and keeping the door wide open for any other alternatives.

You really would have been better off not saying anything, but "Flopz won't give reads until <someone who's not on his team> apologizes to <someone who's not in the whole tournament> is a really lame excuse to post about it at all. Plus how does Flopz develop reads in 3 minutes when the players in it can't develop confident reads in literal days?

I get the impression this (+the multi-quoting) is Hopkirk's way to appear like having a lots of content, when -in fact- both 1144 & 1146 boil down to nothing (a maximum of one line would have summed it all up)

wtf is this

[Hopkirk]

did you read the last game

[Hopkirk]

so you have a problem with the 'flopz is totally reading this game' post that i made three variations of last game?
i don't believe anyone could take that seriously if they were reading my posts last game & this time and both A50/Ceph not interpreting it reeks

[Hopkirk]

like wtf

[Hopkirk]

they are making a joke in really poor taste i think? idk~

what's in bad taste there?

just vote me already you're clearly building up to it

VOTE: hopkirk

now it'll be omgus

?

SvS/TvS? i don't think Ceph/LLD is tvt. ceph's approach to the wagon doesn't read well

KEEPING BOTH LIMS AS OPTIONS

+town

Why? What exactly is AI in that paragraph?

i don't think i got any vibes from any of your posts there

Fence-sitty much?

i'm liking Mastina's reads even more...

Funny that she doesn't hard SR me though. What

exact

reads bare you now "liking more" and WHY?

i can understand why LLD would choose to hardwagon (literally any slot she felt like) but i don't really get the other votes on herc. his entire approach is the inverse of last game. he was ridiculously rigid and (until his interaction with LLD) he seemed to be having fun. i guess scum!herc could have felt under pressure from the start last game, but then he should have been caught from the start if that's such a SR and people like Koba have meta that would say that so that feels reachy and he's just town

Too many words that could be summarized with just TWO GODDAMN LETTERS: WK

keeping LLD & Ceph open? because there's so many votes on ceph aren't there
the paragraph reads as genuine, but i guess you've just established you can't read tone
?
you added yourself to the list of people throwing shade at her
ok?

[Hopkirk]

they are making a joke in really poor taste i think? idk~

Even IF (which I don't think it is, but EVEN IF) then it's just filler. Lots of noise for no real content. Wouldn't you agree?

how did i end up on team almost50 what has happened to my life

oh look more garbage
you've just played with me and you're saying that's alignment indicative? have you ever played with me before? i've got twenty games worth of shitposts you can read through
ceph supporting this is scum. a50 idk if scum or trolling me but either is garbage

because over the top doesn't feel genuine and genuine posting is +town posting. you feel a lot less natural than before

False. Over the top is my natural genuine response. I don't go "over the top" if I have to actually think about what I'm posting. However, when I read a post and I have -what I perceive as- a funny response to it (as a meme, a pun or a music video) I just post that naturally.

and i should be reading it as genuine why?

[Hopkirk]

why are you acting like my read on you is closer to 100% scum than 30-40%?

Seriously? ISO yourself, man. It's like you're having me in your dreams each night, but that's NOT even what I'm getting at. You are actually inventing reasons to shade me, push on me all the way. You are shading people who hint that they TR me, and stating you like the read lists that have me at the bottom or towards the bottom. You have literally mentioned my name more than anyone else in the game, and it was in bad faith and for false reasons.

p.o.e
read how i play

it is not okay to make RC jokes because clearly LLD really dislikes it, so the flopz thing feels a little incendiary even if it a joke

personally i disliked LLD's outright insults against RC as a player/person. maybe don't start shitting on someone who isn't here if you don't want to talk about them? she could have said 'i don't want to talk about RC' instead of directly shitting on him

[Hopkirk]

you're saying you treated that as serious?

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Hopkirk

This doesn't make it to D2. Bad//fake reads +

alibis to avoid having -allegedly- Flopz reads posted

= Scum going for -what they think are- easy targets and keeping the door wide open for any other alternatives.

You really would have been better off not saying anything, but "Flopz won't give reads until <someone who's not on his team> apologizes to <someone who's not in the whole tournament> is a really lame excuse to post about it at all. Plus how does Flopz develop reads in 3 minutes when the players in it can't develop confident reads in literal days?

I get the impression this (+the multi-quoting) is Hopkirk's way to appear like having a lots of content, when -in fact- both 1144 & 1146 boil down to nothing (a maximum of one line would have summed it all up)

you just agreed with this post. ?? isn't a response

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: hopkirk

...

[Hopkirk]

you said "you're saying you treated that as serious"

i don't know what you're accusing me of treating as serious. the thing a50 is responding to?

why wouldn't that be serious? what's the point of posting it if it didn't really happen when it so obviously has a high likelihood of setting off LLD and making the thread awful?

A50 said he thought it was an excuse for me to not give Flopz reads. he didn't say i was trying to set LLD off. that's something you and Oka have put up now that clearly isn't the intent. i've been making excuses for Flopz not posting for two games now and A50 claiming it's scum indicative is a scummy-read of it because it's a bad faith misrep
you're backtracking on agreeing with it now

[Hopkirk]

you said "you're saying you treated that as serious"

i don't know what you're accusing me of treating as serious. the thing a50 is responding to?

why wouldn't that be serious? what's the point of posting it if it didn't really happen when it so obviously has a high likelihood of setting off LLD and making the thread awful?

how did i end up on team almost50 what has happened to my life

^ you're saying you don't agree with the post you made a post afterwards agreeing with it? that can't be serious

[Hopkirk]

you are seeing words in post 1161 that aren't there.

i see you backup on A50s bullshit

[Hopkirk]

backing up

[Hopkirk]

ok, i don't think you need an excuse to not give flopz' reads because you could easily just not post about him at all

i do partly agree with his second paragraph that posting that accomplishes nothing, and i also didn't enjoy the inflammatory element. i don't think i ever said "i 100% agree with a50's reasoning here" only that it was weird to be on the same side as him but ok

and since you made a post after that one that said you didn't think i was having as much fun this game i'm

sure

you're sincere in scumreading me for having some shitposting mixed in just like in EVERY FUCKING GAME I PLAY. you're scumreading it both happening and not happening at the same time which makes this blatantly bad faith

[Hopkirk]

Although I am not as very transparently Town as I was the time before

i don’t like this after thinking more about it

ik this is kind of old (?) but can you talk about what you thought about?

Hopkirk when you get a chance can you respond to this? what was going on from 412->481 about this line

initially didn't feel like the kind of thing scum outright say which was +town, but reading more it contributed to the fake feel of the post string

so you have a problem with the 'flopz is totally reading this game' post that i made three variations of last game?

If you've already made that joke thrice in the previous; why are persistent on making it in this game too? I say you're struggling to make any useful content so are resolving to make filler instead and opting to include whole post quotes to make your posts look bigger (we both know nobody likes to read large posts anyway, so people will

assume

you said something of actual worth there)

because Flopz liked the previous ones and said to throw one in somewhere in my catchup while we were playing team-fight-tactics from 5.30-8pm today on our team-mafia discord server.

[Hopkirk]

so you have a problem with the 'flopz is totally reading this game' post that i made three variations of last game?

If you've already made that joke thrice in the previous; why are persistent on making it in this game too? I say you're struggling to make any useful content so are resolving to make filler instead and opting to include whole post quotes to make your posts look bigger (we both know nobody likes to read large posts anyway, so people will

assume

you said something of actual worth there)

like what even is this? you're saying i'm scum for

repeating a joke

? this isn't even bottom of the barrel, it's the dregs that weren't good enough to reach the barrel in the first place

[Hopkirk]

keeping LLD & Ceph open? because there's so many votes on ceph aren't there

I wasn't talking about ONLY today. You said it was either SvS or SvT but not TvT, which means if either flipped green at any point you'd still be able to vote the other. Now if either flipped red;

you'd still be able to vote the other too

we're what three days into this? i have like six strong reads. you're framing this as though my reads are 100% solid set in stone and not something i'm developing on page twenty when i was still clearly flipping my reads 120 pages into the other game. anyone here can ask anyone i've played with how solid my reads are early game. you're attacking me here by describing how i play as town (only role i've played as in living memory) and acting like you're saying something that isn't a scumclaim

[Hopkirk]

ok, i don't think you need an excuse to not give flopz' reads because you could easily just not post about him at all

i do partly agree with his second paragraph that posting that accomplishes nothing, and i also didn't enjoy the inflammatory element. i don't think i ever said "i 100% agree with a50's reasoning here" only that it was weird to be on the same side as him but ok

and since you made a post after that one that said you didn't think i was having as much fun this game i'm

sure

you're sincere in scumreading me for having some shitposting mixed in just like in EVERY FUCKING GAME I PLAY. you're scumreading it both happening and not happening at the same time which makes this blatantly bad faith

there's shitposting and then there's shitposting that has the potential to become toxic and i think the difference should be obvious

RC is a bad person

and this is ok to say about someone not in the game?
i like RC. if someone decides to start attacking someone not in the thread then that's toxicity. RC isn't exactly a divisive social issue that it's a dick move to joke about in response to someone who brought him up to shit on him

[Hopkirk]

acting like you're saying something that isn't a scumclaim

not buying this level of certainty

his push is garbage tier and that i'm giving him the probably undue assumption that he isn't just that bad at the game

and i should be reading it as genuine why?

Frankly, I don't care how you read it all, but I'll be polite and answer "because you've played with me before"

you read as genuine last game. you didn't this game. that's why i'm pushing it. i hope that's something you can understand

[Hopkirk]

Hopkirk, if you're town come back to Earth. If you're scum, keep going

i think i'm going to choose the third option of leave the thread for today after Ceph/A50 decided to start their 'shit on Hopkirk' agenda to try and piss me off as much as they possibly could

[Hopkirk]

you read as genuine last game. you didn't this game.

How can you bloody tell what's genuine and what's not? You don't live in my mind. You clearly don't know how I play, and you sure as hell don't know my personality. I am actually giving you credit calling this behaviour scummy, and not outright stupid.

i've given this some time and at this point i think you're just trolling me with stuff like this hoping for a reaction. congrats, you got it. good job. hope you're pleased
i think i can tell if people are genuine are not. that's how i play. nice to hear i'm just stupid i guess. really makes me want to play with you

Dunn, do you have a read on Hopkirk this game?

Leaning towards being scummy, I didn't like the comment about cephrir/lld not being t/t - how would he deduce this? Felt like a false dichotomy

The parts where he's talking about flopz are null to me

++scum
Dunn has played plenty of games with me. he's calling me scum based on specifically one of many thoughts in a catchup. he should know that that's me putting my thought process and what i'm considering on paper and he's acting like i'm 100% on reads based on one specifically chosen comment from my catchup. that's taking a specific chosen point and overly focusing on it when it's not representative of the whole, and he should know that

If I agree to die here, can I trust this town to kill people in order I ask until you hit a townie?

are mastina/hercule top of the list

get that the points where hercule is significantly different in reaction from last game scum hercule is a good point and possibly +town points

but there are other tells that koba had given me, that are more subtle, that are ai for either town or scum, that have not been entered into yet

like reading hercule from a random person i guess mastina's read works but reading hercule as the guy from epicmafia in the lens of koba, idk we just don't have enough

maybe that's fine to be honest

have you been explicit about this metaread? i feel like you're dangling it over us in a way that doesn't make sense since if you've got a good picture of herc's meta he should have been lock sorted by now. is his town game also stilted in tone or not?

thank goodness i now know in excruciating detail exactly how certain you are about those scumreads, that is adding a lot of value to my life

this added to the thread, especially when you posted it for the tenth time

[Hopkirk]

ceph/dann

what's the case on hopkirk

satellite view of the case is hopkirk is inciting bad vibes in the thread and trying to start some shit

this is a terrible summation of the conflict

@Hopkirk

would you say as scum that your tendency to get frustrated/annoyed and post about it in game is the same as when you're town?

i have no idea because i haven't rolled scum in years
i get annoyed when people push me for reasons that can be summarized as 'i'm too lazy to do any sort of meta to realize this is something hop does every single game'

world's be turning actually

VOTE: a50

i don't like this vote given you didn't say anything about A50 when we were arguing two days ago. his play was bad faith and you were there the whole time. looking back you were one of the first people to say i was 'trying to encite stuff' which is a misrepresentation that i very much don't like. why are you putting a naked vote down now when he had stuff that was clearly bad faith incitement that you didn't even engage with?

[Hopkirk]

about fishing want to fish for some monkeys

i know i just got burned last game but why are we townreading a50 anyhow, i checked his iso and he has 100 posts which seems, high because i can only recall him vs hopkirk lol

what are you thoughts even on the me/A50 exchange. you felt sidelining the whole time and didn't even try and support me when A50 was shooting off garbage while ceph incited it

Honestly, I'm gonna take a few days to not hate this game and half the people in it and come back with hopefully a less angry mindset.

If I'm dead by then, I really don't care.

mood

and fuck it

VOTE: LLD

not even going to quote anything by me or A50 in between bringing it up and dropping it?

sneak peak preview of my theory for this game is that the hercule/LLD/mastina trifecta is actually all town and there are some certain slots that aren't exactly on the sidelines but are utilizing this dynamic that might be scum

don't worry oka I'm just voting you as a placeholder until I vote the super obv scum slots that no one but the great dannflor has been able to see yet

i could see this but with scum!dann

UNVOTE: LLD

[Hopkirk]

ceph/dann

what's the case on hopkirk

satellite view of the case is hopkirk is inciting bad vibes in the thread and trying to start some shit

although my townblock is basically the entire wagon so i should just sheep

[Hopkirk]

that was a one line comment, why did something i'd quoted in one of the previous posts randomly get attached

[Hopkirk]

hey it probably is - asgdh

its just currently as it stands my townreads are

hop, iv, xtoxm, ceph, ythan, and herc to an extent and i mean like idk im just following where the mass of my townreads are blehhhhhhh

4 of them are voting LLD and 1 of them was voting her

mastina is literally the only reason why i feel so weird about this but asdfasdf sometimes it do be like that

why ceph

get sadge dannflor because im doing the thing i do in most games where im just going to commit to a narrative and stick for a flip

i thought i evolved past it last game but here we are, back again, old habits die hard

what is LLD town flip gonna tell you?

That we should flip hercule next?

maybe mastina?

like it doesn't sound particularly like you believe it'll flip scum

you're probably not going to like my response but yes i think we flip hercule after.

why the fuck are you town reading ythan and not A50

You are townreading A50 and not Ythan? I think ythan is surprisingly townie with the few things he's done. maybe my bar is low because ythan trolled my ass last game but i thought his votes were pretty townie because they are utilitarian and drive the game forward. while a50 is bloaty and i don't know his place in the game. look i know a50 is weird but being weird doesn't give him a town check.

meh i feel like at the start hop was really proactive and townie and it just made sense for him to be townie. his 'incendiary' comments i think are... unfortunately townie because it probably signifies LLD can't be scum with hop and its a massive gamble for a guy like hop to do something that... incendiary. i actually liked his a50 takes as well but wanted to keep pressure on hercule so yeah. he's still capturing a lot of the mindmeld we had last game, and i've been keeping a lot of my thoughts hidden.

there was nothing incendiary about my posting and i don't like that you're trying to push that image of me

[Hopkirk]

Votes are going to go somewhere. I guess I'd recommend presenting a more attractive alternative.

i could try putting some lipstick and a wig on hopkirk?

[Hopkirk]

Spoiler: Notes

- #686 is a weird flip by WF. There's like... no content from the_worst to parse in the 20 or so posts between his change. This feels very very contrived.
- I want to murder A50, for no reason other than his spam quotes are going to make this take fucking hours longer than it should.
- #736 looks real bad for Hercule. 741 to 743 is gross. In 741, you're waiting on her to explain her scumread before you decide and you kinda wanna vote A50. In 743 you vote LLD for being in "have not said or done something towny." Feels jarring when contrasted to #736.
- It's the Hercule power hour for now, huh? #751 "I don't feel like it's that weird to be sus of me" really? Because you got uppity and snippy about people suspecting you and/or voting you like... 15 posts ago.
- #766 IV, wtf is this shit?
- Oh no, DGB. That stretch in #768 was too much.
- Ok IV is still town (#772)
- I straight up disagree with OkaPoka's #805. WF has not been bold? He's posted like three times? And he's waffled on a read on the_worst.
- 812 is a weird naked vote. The_worst wasn't a wagon burgeoning. Hope Ceph elaborates?
- Dann/Hercule exchange in the 800s - I agree with Dann, I find hercule infinitely scummier.
- I don't like jjh. #847 is just very middling and meh.
- Hercule #873:

I have devoted most of my attention this game outside of LLD

Press X for doubt.
- jjh #882. Yeah we just play different games or you're selectively misremembering here.
- Hercule #892 is very very typical scum bluster. "I want to talk about things but tell me what they are so I can concoct my read!"

- Whew boy WF absolutely

STINKS

this game.

- I was wrong.
- Hopkirk #1142 and #1144 sets off alarms for me. #1142 looks like he's specifically baiting to bring in toxicity, #1144 doubles down and Hopkirk just doesn't realize that he isn't funny and tries to use this to generate a point of contention.
- Hopkirk also trying to make callbacks to last game and that doesn't really hold water with me.
- 1187 is a hell of a fucking stretch by Hopkirk. Yeet this with fervor.
- Hercule has dipped out since pressure has seemingly dissipated on him. Makes you think.
- 1204, Hopkirk is really trying to kick up the toxicity dust. Wonder why.
- 1242 RE FUCKING TWEET.
- Same for 1424.
- 1480 is a whole damn mood.
- 1511: Oka, how do you not have a read on LLD?
- Oka was doing a reaction test type thing, k. Weird but k.

I am under no circumstances yeeting LLD today.

Preferred yeets {Hercule/Hopkirk}

Someone not named xtoxm please lay out a case on Dunnstral for me? Xtoxm's case has Auro all over it and a lot of meta so I'm not swayed.

this read on me has no nuance to it
how does this affect your read on LLD?
is scum hop trying to incite a partner, is scum hop trying to incite town with a wagon that he wasnts pushed, or is town hop making a joke that's 'inflammatory' - something you're just sheepint to attack me with
like not
i went back to look at the posts you quoted about me and your comments could be about anything. you aren't engaging with my content, you're picking out a few things i've said and agreeing with the anti-hop take in them. this feels like you're just trying to shade me

Because you would never post snark that doesnt contribute to the game

absolutely never. why the very idea!

[Hopkirk]

you really need to chill

i didn't want to get to bogged with you vs a50 because the gamestate was focused on lld/herc and you/a50 was a distraction

i don't really care about you vs a50 its not why im sus of a50. it felt like a stupid exchange and there isn't really much to read into it.

like... do you think that saying this is going to make me more chill?
w/e

i like ceph's posting and do you really want to argue this hop please stop

i kind of do because like four people here are attacking me because they're claiming it's inflammatory when it's blatantly not and some of them are clearly scum sheeping the shade on me
what about his posting

[Hopkirk]

dann/ceph were both pushing hercule
then ceph jumped on A50s shitpush of me and Dann joined in with a naked vote that he later explained buried in an iso as basically 'i don't have as many townvibes as i want' which doesn't gel with the timing of the vote being with the A50/me conflict that he didn't comment on specifically
now they're both pushing Dunn with cases that came as basically the same time

both of their votes/pushes on me were the worst ones. oka/agar are in a similar state of their agreement with those pushes being bad

this feels like trying to save a partner

VOTE: LLD

[Hopkirk]

i kind of do because like four people here are attacking me because they're claiming it's inflammatory when it's blatantly not and some of them are clearly scum sheeping the shade on me

do you actually believe this

how is this even a question you're asking? you've played with me before. it was a joke paragraph and only meant to be taken as that. the amount of people attacking me for it is insane, and feels worse for people who should know my style

I just think you're unfunny and try and pass off scummy shit as "humor" and I think you were trying to nag and prod at the RC thing to see if you could derail a thread into a shitshow of toxicity about a player that isn't in the game. LLD made it explicitly clear how she feels about RC, and that subject had been dead and dropped until you found reason to bring it back up when nothing productive can come from it. I can find two reasons as to why you would do that, and

I make a rule of assuming players aren't the stupidest fucking antitown actor that I've ever met

.

given you responded seriously to my post last game where i was saying 'eating/sleeping/needing to use the bathroom etc' was scum indicative as though i was serious, i don't have a high opinion of your ability to recognize humor.
the subject was like a 1-2 post exchange. why do i look at that and know 'ah, posting this is going to make the thread explode lol'.

@bold - fuck this

[Hopkirk]

what about me and agar?

you're both backing the narrative of discrediting my image as a person, not just a slot.

like saying that 'hopkirk is either scum, or he's the kind of person who would intentionally try and piss people off to start shit' instead of 'hop is either scum or he made a joke in good faith that either went to far (i disagree it went far at all but that's a separate point that's not worth discussing)' is the four of you choosing to insult me as a person and really fucking pisses me off

nah I voted you because I thought it would be interesting

also ceph cased dunn?

huh maybe i'm not in a state to be reading right now. ceph didn't case dunn. i read your case and ceph's vote and thought ceph had posted some of what you had

dann/ceph were both pushing hercule
then ceph jumped on A50s shitpush of me and Dann joined in with a naked vote that he later explained buried in an iso as basically 'i don't have as many townvibes as i want' which doesn't gel with the timing of the vote being with the A50/me conflict that he didn't comment on specifically
now they're both pushing Dunn with cases that came as basically the same time

both of their votes/pushes on me were the worst ones. oka/agar are in a similar state of their agreement with those pushes being bad

this feels like trying to save a partner

VOTE: LLD

no one else had a problem with the push on you, so this is me suggesting the way you're approaching the game is too self centered (and i think that's scummy)

@matina/innocentvillager/hercule/DGB - what are your views on how i'm approaching this and whether i should be angry/upset by this?

[Hopkirk]

i was townreading like half of the people i'm now disliking until this so maybe i'm just tilted but this doesn't feel ok

[Hopkirk]

it is not okay to make RC jokes because clearly LLD really dislikes it, so the flopz thing feels a little incendiary even if it a joke

ok sorry, i looked back and i thought you were a lot more malicious about it than this
dann is also ok in terms of not personally attacking me

i'm annoyed with Agar and Ceph

[Hopkirk]

I think I'm too tilted to read objectively right now

[Hopkirk]

i'm sorry about not posting today. i was going to but i had some business to take care of. i'll post tomorrow morning. i care about you.

[Hopkirk]

it's not a prodge if i throw in some game content right? this is a pretty brave view, but what if there's a cop in the game? that's a role that's allowed in normals. well that's it for me.

[Hopkirk]

dgb if we are both town then who is scum? im scumsiding with scum!dunnstral and scum!okapoka who are trying to deflect away from scum!LLD? is that the narrative that makes the most sense for you rn (if im town)?

I misunderstood Ramcius. He said that if you being an argument with "if we are both town" then you have to convince me that you're town first, because I scumread you.

okay so it has nothing to do with okapoka? ok yeah that felt a little random to me

uhh not gonna towncase myself or anything lol? but one reason im town is because i literally can't stand posting in main thread as scum but idk how i would be playing here in this very specific game as scum honestly :/

if im scum i definitely cannot keep this kind of solving/energy up organically for long unless i want to wreck my mental health (which i don't!) so ill probably give myself away as scum eventually

now this is the kind of selfmeta that makes me locktown someone

@Hopkirk are you still around or did I miss you

i hope you missed me. it'd have hurt my feelings if you didn't

VOTE: Dunnstral

VOTE: Dunnstral

I'm going to need an explanation for these.

Dann and hopkirk suddenly casing me as scum is very conveniently timed.

Dann asserting that I am on the sidelines for lld/hercule is incorrect.

Again, saying I'm fencesitty is wrong

'casing' is a strong word for the thoughts i threw out on you, especially when by the end of the day i was leaning towards there being multiple scum pushing you
what did you think of my casing more specifically?

Also I haven't really deflected away from lld because I'm not 100% that she's town over scum trying to pocket me

But me asking for someone to explain why lld is being pushed is a big deal because there is very little reason why lld is being pushed

That's not the case for hercule, which could be explained, and can still go either way

LLD can go either way but there's no explanation for why she's scum here, and me asking for explanations is seen as defending her

dann/ceph were both pushing hercule
then ceph jumped on A50s shitpush of me and Dann joined in with a naked vote that he later explained buried in an iso as basically 'i don't have as many townvibes as i want' which doesn't gel with the timing of the vote being with the A50/me conflict that he didn't comment on specifically
now they're both pushing Dunn with cases that came as basically the same time

both of their votes/pushes on me were the worst ones. oka/agar are in a similar state of their agreement with those pushes being bad

this feels like trying to save a partner

VOTE: LLD

This is a good post, but you lose me when you go to voting lld

Is lld the one doing something scummy here? no, and there's no reason to think they're specifically protecting lld other than her being wagoned right now (which there's also no explanation for)

Wouldn't it make more sense for you to directly vote the people who are doing something scummy? Scum can act scummy around town too

vibestate

LLD feels more like scum from the state of the game than anything else. i didn't like her early game entry, the ego stuff felt forced/off a bit, especially the long post about how she was one of the best scumplayers on site. felt like a good vote especially when my townreads were agreeing with it (DBG/Mastina/Hercule especially when i joined). then the wagon stalled for ages, attracted like four counterwagons, and pretty much all of my stronger townreads are pushing it as of where i'm up to whereas people i don't like are pushing for all of the counterwagons. LLD's stuff hasn't gotten obvscum, and i kind of liked some of the later ATE stuff where she was talking about avoiding the thread as that feels like a town mindset to me for obvious reasons, but the stuff surrounding her wagon makes me feel like either she's scum or the scum want to keep her alive. alternatively my reads are garbage and i'm being hard pocketed, but i'm clearly too good for that to work

i'm going to look at the slots like Dann/Ceph pushing weirdly afterwards yeah, but i wasn't really feeling up to isoing people last time i was around because the stuff in the thread was annoying me and i needed some distance

[Hopkirk]

the case for scum!LLD, to me, is:

1. enters the thread with sole purpose of discrediting mastina and "eliminate players in inverse order of her preference"

2. then decides to back up this idea by saying just that my entrance was garbage

3. re-iterates that my entrance was garbage multiple times in order to get votes on me

4. rallies the thread to vote me, still with no evidence

(4.5?) big ego post about their scumgame

5. when i finally respond to her like, "ok, enough's enough let's talk" she's just like "nah lol you're caught scum"

6. when i'm like "ok well that's bullshit" she's like "lmaoooo such a scum reaction now my vote is, like, even more justified"

7. when a counterwagon forms on her, she AtEs and leaves the thread (also like, can't tell if she's mad that more people aren't voting me despite her not seeming to be sure or just mad that she's being voted)

i'm aware this is a slightly humorously uncharitable framing of her game but it also feels like a somewhat reasonable one

1-4 agree with to an extent and 4.5 disliked
5-6 i've seen from town!LLD & 7 is making me have second thoughts

the case for scum!LLD, to me, is:

1. enters the thread with sole purpose of discrediting mastina and "eliminate players in inverse order of her preference"

2. then decides to back up this idea by saying just that my entrance was garbage

3. re-iterates that my entrance was garbage multiple times in order to get votes on me

4. rallies the thread to vote me, still with no evidence

(4.5?) big ego post about their scumgame

5. when i finally respond to her like, "ok, enough's enough let's talk" she's just like "nah lol you're caught scum"

6. when i'm like "ok well that's bullshit" she's like "lmaoooo such a scum reaction now my vote is, like, even more justified"

7. when a counterwagon forms on her, she AtEs and leaves the thread (also like, can't tell if she's mad that more people aren't voting me despite her not seeming to be sure or just mad that she's being voted)

i'm aware this is a slightly humorously uncharitable framing of her game but it also feels like a somewhat reasonable one

1 is definitely not a scumtell. 2 also sounds like a pretty ordinary thing to do. you are currently townreading mastina for doing 4, and 4.5 is something you also have done. 5 and 6 sound like what dgb is doing too. multiple people have already said they think 7 is town indicative.

most of this i don't really see as connected to a scum agenda either and you haven't really done so here -- you've only summarized events

how did you read her for 4.5/the long rant? i disliked it and your treatment of it here 'you've done it too' really lacks any kind of nauance. no, herc didn't post anything resembling that rant. he posted a self-meta thing, but that's different on context and content, and it's ridiculously surface level to say they're the same. the content made me TR herc's and SR LLD's because herc's felt like it was coming from a genuine place and LLD's felt more forced. i want to hear more about how these and the vibes from them are the same from you because i hard disagree

[Hopkirk]

My LLD scumread is not in a vacuum.

I know I am terse, and I don't usually wall post. So let me try a little harder to convince you all.

• You can see in the posts above (viewtopic.php?p=12572656#p12572656), in real time, how I viewed LLD's blustery game start totally discrediting mastina as scummy. It could have been good-natured ribbing, which I considered, but LLD came in like a sledgehammer. LLD made a full series of posts trying to de-fang mastina's future scumhunting. I detected a hint of trying to demoralize her. LLD tends to be over the top, but this was over the top even for her:
  viewtopic.php?p=12559295#p12559295
  viewtopic.php?p=12559296#p12559296
  viewtopic.php?p=12559301#p12559301
  These posts are LLD pre-emptively, and aggressively neutralizing mastina.

• If I had any doubt that LLD wanted to neutralize mastina, these doubts vanished when LLD literally voted hercule to put her money where her mouth is, so to speak. Then LLD makes a case on hercule after deciding that using mastina as an
  absolute compass
  to solve the game (even if in reverse). At the time of LLD's case, I wasn't sure about hercule's entry post, she might have had a point, but later I began to town read hercule and I saw it from a different perspective.

• Now, I know I'm not going to convince anyone but myself with how I found LLD's scum ego post scummy, but to be transparent in my thinking, I found it scummy in the context of the neutralization of mastina, and based on mastina's supposed bad reads, manufacturing a case on hercule off the cuff. It was a huge wall of manipulation that didn't come from a townie mindset.

• I found the rage/anger/AtE to be hollow and insincere (that's a matter of personal interpretation, I realize). I usually respond to AtE, I am one of the site's biggest sucker for AtE. So, AtE has to be pretty bad not to move me. LLD's AtE left me completely cold, which is astonishing.

• Now she's strategically lurking as her scumpals manufacture a counterwagon on her attacker.

you think LLD!scum lets her scum partners bail her out and not try and bail herself out? @dgb???

perhaps a little
but i do feel like lld red flip would strongly imply the wagon parkers are town cus i dont think scum would be wanting to bus her
if its green i need to shake up my game view
this is why shes a good gamestate flip

This is a desperation argument btw.

Scum don't want the LLD flip to slip through their fingers, because when I flip green it's not really gonna be Xtom people look at it'll be hercule, dgb, mastina, IV.

VOTE: Xtoxm

perhaps a little
but i do feel like lld red flip would strongly imply the wagon parkers are town cus i dont think scum would be wanting to bus her
if its green i need to shake up my game view
this is why shes a good gamestate flip

hopkirk can you run me by you reasons for voting LLD quickly?

i skimmed your ISO but... i'm not really seeing any specifics about why you don't like her? It's all kinda vague?

The more recent vote on her felt better but was also more based on Dann/Ceph's behavior rather than her own? i don't really get voting her on that because it's assuming those 3 are teamed which feels like a bad hole to fall into

[Hopkirk]

why does pressing submit instead of preview just post your quotes

My LLD scumread is not in a vacuum.

I know I am terse, and I don't usually wall post. So let me try a little harder to convince you all.

• You can see in the posts above (viewtopic.php?p=12572656#p12572656), in real time, how I viewed LLD's blustery game start totally discrediting mastina as scummy. It could have been good-natured ribbing, which I considered, but LLD came in like a sledgehammer. LLD made a full series of posts trying to de-fang mastina's future scumhunting. I detected a hint of trying to demoralize her. LLD tends to be over the top, but this was over the top even for her:
  viewtopic.php?p=12559295#p12559295
  viewtopic.php?p=12559296#p12559296
  viewtopic.php?p=12559301#p12559301
  These posts are LLD pre-emptively, and aggressively neutralizing mastina.

• If I had any doubt that LLD wanted to neutralize mastina, these doubts vanished when LLD literally voted hercule to put her money where her mouth is, so to speak. Then LLD makes a case on hercule after deciding that using mastina as an
  absolute compass
  to solve the game (even if in reverse). At the time of LLD's case, I wasn't sure about hercule's entry post, she might have had a point, but later I began to town read hercule and I saw it from a different perspective.

• Now, I know I'm not going to convince anyone but myself with how I found LLD's scum ego post scummy, but to be transparent in my thinking, I found it scummy in the context of the neutralization of mastina, and based on mastina's supposed bad reads, manufacturing a case on hercule off the cuff. It was a huge wall of manipulation that didn't come from a townie mindset.

• I found the rage/anger/AtE to be hollow and insincere (that's a matter of personal interpretation, I realize). I usually respond to AtE, I am one of the site's biggest sucker for AtE. So, AtE has to be pretty bad not to move me. LLD's AtE left me completely cold, which is astonishing.

• Now she's strategically lurking as her scumpals manufacture a counterwagon on her attacker.

you think LLD!scum lets her scum partners bail her out and not try and bail herself out? @dgb???

how are you reading LLD and i need to check what you're pushing because this seems like pushing against the wagon and i thought you weren't saying you were against it

perhaps a little
but i do feel like lld red flip would strongly imply the wagon parkers are town cus i dont think scum would be wanting to bus her
if its green i need to shake up my game view
this is why shes a good gamestate flip

who do you think flips scum if LLD does? have you mentioned any specific associatives? i provisionally dislike dann/ceph without having done in depth isoing yet

perhaps a little
but i do feel like lld red flip would strongly imply the wagon parkers are town cus i dont think scum would be wanting to bus her
if its green i need to shake up my game view
this is why shes a good gamestate flip

This is a desperation argument btw.

Scum don't want the LLD flip to slip through their fingers, because when I flip green it's not really gonna be Xtom people look at it'll be hercule, dgb, mastina, IV.

VOTE: Xtoxm

what are you thoughts on the stuff DGB is saying in 1810 above?

hopkirk can you run me by you reasons for voting LLD quickly?

i skimmed your ISO but... i'm not really seeing any specifics about why you don't like her? It's all kinda vague?

The more recent vote on her felt better but was also more based on Dann/Ceph's behavior rather than her own? i don't really get voting her on that because it's assuming those 3 are teamed which feels like a bad hole to fall into

i think i've gone through most of this recently in this catchup?
current vote is gamestate. i need to review dann/ceph. i'm throwing out reads. they're in my poe, there's stuff i don't like from both of them, and there's associative to potentially consider. i'm not locked into a associative-team, i'm thinking what the gamestate would be with scum LLD to help sort LLD

[Hopkirk]

While I love the wagons for VCA, I still think these are T v T.

Based on what?

My reads on DGB and LLD.

I feel this has been a group of people moving around from town to town.

LLD fosed Hercule.
Hercule wagon takes.
LLD wagon in response due to her push on someone regarded as town.
DGB lead that charge.
LLD wagon won't take.
Therefore wagon DGB.

We're punishing people who make wagons rather than the scum sheeping and starting up drama.

this feels like a weird view of the dynamics? how do you feel about the other four counterwagons to LLD pushed largely by similar people?
+the sounding out of possible counterwagons

no idea what to make of that readslist tbh

one thing's for sure, ceph's sure to roast it

i suppose - why is a50 a chum? (how do people even have a read on this slot tbh)

how is LLD is an umm? (id expect a

strong

opinion on this slot from everyone? actually what is an umm is that a null read or uncategorized etc.

why?

hey just wanted to make a non-game-related goodbye post, won't put any thoughts about the game here but after reflecting on it I feel like it's best for the game and myself if I seek a replacement, considering I will be on a 7 day vacation and would probably do a credit to myself to not be thinking about a mafia game during it, plus EoD will happen during it, and I would rather give my replacement ample time to read the thread so it's prob best if I just do it now

I really enjoyed meeting and playing with you people and hopefully will get a chance to do so again in the future!

cheers xx

have a good vacation, nice to play with you twice

Fair warning: I am spiraling into a pit of very strong, very bad, depression. I'm very much not in the mood to play, I just have no choice but to.

[Hopkirk]

I somehow managed to burn my middle finger's top, and it hurts so bad

Obviously it's bloody hard to stay focused while in such pain, not to mention typing with the wrong hand

But what saddens me the most is that I won't be using emojis on this one. So sorry, Hopkirk

it's weird to see some physical pain mixed in with all of the emotional pain in this thread

like you wanna increase town win %? how about not having a 200 page day 1.

100% agree with ceph here. adding my voice in support of the 300 page d1 gang

Chums

mastina
Xtoxm
Okapoka
Dannflor
hercule
DrippingGoofball
Winter flakes
InnocentVillager
Hopkirk
Almost50

Umms

Titus
LLD
Cephrir
Ythan

Scums

the worst
AGar
Dunnstral

Literally the only chum I disagree with in that list is OkaPoka; I otherwise think it is 100% town. (Heck, Oka could be town, it's just he's much better in the 'Umms' category imo.)

I'd swap him with Ceph, honestly, since I do think Ceph belongs in town.

I legit feel a good poe would be {Titus, LLD, OkaPoka, Ythan, the worst, maybe-AGar}. (I don't really think Dunnstral is scum.)

Those 5.5 I do think contain 3-4 scum. The exact combo of scum, I'm not sure on, but I can say that I still think Titus is scum here and that LLD is scum here and the remaining 3.5 are more in flux.

can you explain the ceph townread more i don't see it and i'm seeing kind of the opposite

i miss unwnd

i gotta hand it to him, that guy knew how to do a toxic 1v1. i miss him terribly. A50 bravely stepped up to fill the void in my heart but... i'm sorry A50, it's just not the same

[Hopkirk]

i have dnd in like 7 minutes so i might not quite finish this cat-chup

where are you at on ceph / dann / dgb / hopkirk

these are the slots i'm mostly unsure about although i'd say i'm more confident in dann as town than the rest

do the rest of your team have any thoughts about me. like uh... had Ydrasse been talking about me in your team pt ?
does Kanna have any reads in general of this game/is she reading it?

where are you at on ceph / dann / dgb / hopkirk

these are the slots i'm mostly unsure about although i'd say i'm more confident in dann as town than the rest

i have lean townreads on all except dgb who i super scumread (i made a case! and since you tr lld/herc/mastina (presumbly) then its a case you should look at it!)

i will say hop has been dropping a lil recently but that might be because i was getting annoyed with him

do you mean the two days where i wasn't posting when you say 'recently' or before then

well my theory is dgb didn't think it could get a lld flip today (herc looked inevitable) so when it committed to the character it doesn't know how to make an exit from it you know

which of their points do you think are an over the top character? looking at say the post i asked LLD about earlier?

VOTE: the worst

layer of irony acknowledging i made this post once before

VOTE: the worst

VOTE: the worst

anyone want to guess how i feel about this wagon?

[Hopkirk]

(I will also say that the way Titus has handled my slot is not her town meta btw. I can explain that, but I'm not sure where to start in describing the difference between Titus as town reaching out and Titus as scum. This is the latter, not the former, and pretty blatantly so, but I do realize it's something that requires background and history to help establish.)

this would be useful. i don't have the best record sorting titus

TOWN

DrippingGoofball
Xtoxm
Dannflor
Winter Flakes
Hopkirk
AGar
jjh927 - low activity, low quality post by did drop a towntell
Titus - VLA, but I like what I see thus far
hercule - was going to say null until I caught a towntell

NULL

mastina - I have been enjoying her posts on a personal and intellectual level, I have seen nothing I would consider remotely scummy but she's not someone who can be read on Day 1.
Almost50 - he is so giddy I read his post with a helium balloon voice, I don't know if that's AI.
Ythan - low activity, nothing alarming, keep an eye on.
Cephrir - was going to be in my town list but I saw a few things that pinged.
innocentvillager - still demotivated, but healthy vote micturition.

SCUM

Dunnstral

- his xtoxm scumread feels like he's scum sensing a weak target and picking at him. a lot of going back and forth and fencesitting.

OkaPoka

- his OMGUS hasn't done much for me to rescind my scum read.

the worst

- VLA, waiting for more info

Lady Lambdadelta

- aggressively discrediting players, manipulative ego post, feeble xtomx vote.

what are the things from Ceph?

So hopkirk, what is the plan if lld is town?

i'm still sorting people. LLD isn't 100% scum here, i'm at like 40-45% on the slot being scum. how certain did you have the impression i was?

Alright.. I give up. Let's try something new:

VOTE: Hopkirk

I could also do Oka for all I care.

As for tw I am not against it in principle, but I'm curious as to what the replacement will have to say.

you were already voting me. it's a bad vote

[Hopkirk]

Guess who's read up to page 56? what? no. it's not Flopz, it's

HECTIC

i haven't spoken to him about them yet because he did a thoughtdump while i was playing dnd with some other folk
paraphrased:

-Hectic likes IV for how he talked to Mastina regarding her townlocking hercule as it felt like he was trying to get an understanding of the underlying thought processes/delving into it (agree)
-The above being said, likes hercule based on the way he changed from the last game not feeling forced/unnatural. He'd expect scum>scum trying to shift from his scummeta to feel somewhat unnatural/him to feel uncomfortable doing it (agreement, i think i've said this a couple of times)
-Dann feels natural and Hectic vibes with it (might need to talk about this one)
-A50s push on me is bad. it looked like he was starting with the premise i'm scum and trying to find reasons to fit it (i'll take another look at this section, but it might be worth other people looking too. i felt like he was more trolly-town after it pushing me to try and get a rise out of me more than scum afterwards, idk. will look back)
-The paranoia Oka had about Mastina politically shifting her read on him to get him to vote LLD was very nuanced. Hectic thinks this would be really hard for scum to fake. (i have some issues with this slot and don't remember the exact part hectic is talking about, will ask)
-Mastina is town. He thinks she reads as the same as in pookyvFlavor Leaf (i agree on town!mastina)
-DGB linked a scumgame where LLD was being ragey scum. She feels less fake here, he can see her faltering on confidence of her read on hercule but isn't quite wanting to give it up (following up)
-Ceph's being antagonistic to Mastina in a way that feels out of place/over the top. He keeps trying to provoke her despite Mastina continuing to ignore him (this had come across to me but this is a much better phrasing than the vague thoughts i was going through)

[Hopkirk]

I'd kinda like to see more from LLD because I still don't know what she is from her posts and I'm starting to feel like I might be 5th impostering purely based on the gamestate.

how do you both feel about those two who've pushed like 5 different counterwagons to her?

[Hopkirk]

maybe it's only 4
hercule (7): Lady Lambdadelta, Ythan, OkaPoka, the worst, Dannflor, Dunnstral, Cephrir
Hopkirk (3): Almost50, Cephrir, Dannflor
DrippingGoofball (5): OkaPoka, Dunnstral, Dannflor, Cephrir, the worst
the worst (6): jjh927, Winter Flakes, Titus, Cephrir, OkaPoka, Dannflor

add Oka to that now that i look at the wagons, joins at different times though
thinking more, it seems unlikely Dann and Ceph are both mafia together though, especially if LLD flips scum. like i don't think there's any chance a team of (LLD/Ceph/Dann/X) decides their best play here is to just ride or die on LLD and push a ton of counterwagons without managing to actually get the pressure off LLD?

[Hopkirk]

oh i missed this one, i thought there were more people on it. that's 5 counterwagons you've both been pushing

Dunnstral (3): innocentvillager, Cephrir, Dannflor

[Hopkirk]

hectic agrees with a lot of things from dann and tonereads him as town
oka discussed the political thing with ceph and mastina denied it. i need to look back probably

some reworded discussion we had
hectic -leans town slightly on LLD. she did the angry BoP thing in a previous game and it's less over the top than there. also her progression/wavering on herc doesn't feel fake
me- did she do the bop there and did it work?
hectic - she replaced out when it didn't work. she did a load of all caps rageposts + her slot got voted out d1
me- asks whether he thinks she'd do it again as scum
hectic - guesses she would have learned from it, but the AtE feels more fluid
me- clarifies that i meant would she ever decide to go for it again as scum if it failed so badly last time (meaning more likely genuine rage/thought process?)
(quickly checks to confirm that LLD is the one who brought up BoP
hectic- doesn’t know if she does it as town/would need to look through more games to decide (probably unlikely as he’s not fully caught up here I’d expect). She was angrily pushing MariaR there but also acting angry at other things in a way that felt false
me- brings up death curse
hectic – kind of feels like how she was pushing noraa there
me- asks about how herc feels if we assumed town!lld tunnel compared to noraa’s response, noted that I liked herc’s reaction
hectic- agrees. Especially liked the ‘subtle frustration’ herc was showing where it felt genuine/didn’t feel like he was trying to overplay it/milk it (my wording)
Hectic is trying to understand/reread LLD

[Hopkirk]

so we both like herc, hectic isn't sure about lld and wants to review. i should probably do that as well at some point.

how do other people feel based on meta. @Mastina?

[Hopkirk]

i would love to be on a scumteam with LLD and Dann that sounds pretty fun and you'd never catch us

damn-flor, that'd be a hard team to catch. you could just have two of you trying to form a bunch of counterwagons if the third one ever got wagoned and i'd probably decide you couldn't all be scum...

you were already voting me.

Really? I totally wasn't aware of it, and the mod hasn't posted any VCs lately (and one of them is not at the top of this page)

it's a bad vote

Is that a crumb? I'll totally take it for one.

UNVOTE:

Now tell me this: Assuming I am TOWN (I know it's hatf for you to consider no matter what your true alignment is, but let's just say that I was somehow confirmed a Townie).. Now WHO is likely to be Scum (I am not asking who your other SRs are. I am asking you to reread the game state assuming I am Town and assuming you got a green PM too)

you know i townlean/townread you right now... right?

[Hopkirk]

damn-flor, that'd be a hard team to catch. you could just have two of you trying to form a bunch of counterwagons if the third one ever got wagoned and i'd probably decide you couldn't all be scum...

then i could make a post like 2081 and you'd really be screwed

i know i shouldn't shitpost when i am on record thinking the page number is antitown

you're one of us now

So hopkirk, what is the plan if lld is town?

Is this what we call a TMI question?

... No?

maybe it's only 4
hercule (7): Lady Lambdadelta, Ythan, OkaPoka, the worst, Dannflor, Dunnstral, Cephrir

LLD was a counterwagon to hercule, stop trying to reframe history scum.

This is definitely coming at me from a starting position of wants to call me scum. everyone who's commented has told me the stuff you've said about me trying to start stuff is bad/actively insulting. you're taking 'counterwagon' is a word and trying to use one word I used (and people should know how I type/talk by now) without considering the actual thoughts being conveyed there. Wittgenstein would hate you.

I clearly mean like dueling wagons for that one and am including it with the counterwagons because it's another wagon with similar people to show there's been a bunch of wagons like that. instead of engaging with the logic/meaning you're choosing to jump on a word/the phrasing as 'scum' which doesn't come from good faith town as it's inherently not in good faith/trying to work things out. That's coming from a mindset of trying to say 'look hop is scum and everything he says is proof of that' which only comes from either town who's 100% (doesn't feel supported by your history)or scum who's thinking this kind of stuff is easier to attack people on than by actually engaging with the ideas

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: agar

your engagement with me in general doesn't have the slightest sense of actual engagement. It's just posturing

[Hopkirk]

anyone who was commenting before about 'x is trying to appeal to a crowd' want to comment on agar before I remember who it was and ask them directly?

[Hopkirk]

Apparently I've been 'prodded' because I haven't posted for '48 hours' and our mod isn't the kind of guy who accompanied prods with threats of physical violence. I'm kind of relieved by that.

I'll post for about an hour or so tonight. I haven't caught up outside of reading this page. Can anyone explain a read of 'not scum' that they have an agar here? He seemed dodgy and the stuff he said about me here is bad

[Hopkirk]

that time i said i was free for is going to be broken up by some food in the middle

Spoiler:

w.r.t. to wagoning a replacement - there is no point in wagoning a pending replacement, but if im going to vote there its more scarier for the replacement to come in, make a bad post and then me voting them then it is for me to be already there. is it AI? statistically its scum indicative but high minded players will shout at me for saying that.

how are you reading LLD and i need to check what you're pushing because this seems like pushing against the wagon and i thought you weren't saying you were against it

I'm still leaning town on LLD, admittedly my original towncase on LLD does not hold. Am I against an LLD wagon? IDK. I have issues with it because the arguments for it seem to be converging now on the xtoxm vote, which is surprising because the wagon started before it. All the other arguments i feel require me to believe LLD is scum before they look scummy, and nobody to me has connected the dots on why x action is a scum action. It's more "well it's not town" which I suppose can work in a PoE world but this isn't a PoE world.

why? (w.r.t. reads on LLD should be strong)

If you are going to come out swinging, people usually immediately have an opinion on you. it probably takes more work to get it back towards the middle.

do you mean the two days where i wasn't posting when you say 'recently' or before then

it was for a pretty long stretch of time where my read started to degrade. probably after the first 48 hours.

which of their points do you think are an over the top character? looking at say the post i asked LLD about earlier?

it's more of a holistic thing gameplay wise, how it is trying to gather votes on lld, openly giving townreads for agreeing with it or voting with it. that feels like too much in one direction. don't know about the other part if you want to link it again or reclarify.

if pressed to answer i could see oka being a lld buddy, he's been at least presenting himself as someone who could be persuaded to join, but when talking to im not getting the sense that he actually ever would. i also feel like he's reducing our suspicions to less than they are. it feels like he keeps saying we dont have a case, and maybe we haven't presented in a strong and convincing way why we believe in this, i think all of me/dgb/mastina have to some degree explained ourselves.

that's a little frustrating to hear. ive tried to give you guys something to be excited about explictly, being by waning LLD townread to hopefully incetivize you guys presenting a concentrated post on how you connected the dots on lld being scum, but you guys gave me the BoP argument and want to work on a dgb towncase instead of doing some analysis. look im downplaying your case because i feel like there has to be something else that you just aren't mentioning, and half of me asking you about your lld argument is to figure you out, not lld. lots of arguments are flying around but i don't feel like they get to the bone, just a summary about what lld has done this game and meta tangents. the fact remains that there are enough people that share the same concern with me w.r.t. lld's wagon where maybe its not a me problem but a you problem.


who's the wall writer now

spoilered as long

3- i'm questioning my read on LLD so i disagree with this. don't see why an initial early attention grabbing thing has to result in 'strong' reads when i'm somewhat conflicted over it right now
4- when and why
5- can you point to any specifics then? 1810/15 are the posts i'm talking about from xtoxm/lld that i wanted your thoughts on

anyone who was commenting before about 'x is trying to appeal to a crowd' want to comment on agar before I remember who it was and ask them directly?

i was unsure if him adding "scum" to the end of that was a joke or not

how. how would that have been a joke. how would it being a joke nullify my point?

do the rest of your team have any thoughts about me. like uh... had Ydrasse been talking about me in your team pt ?
does Kanna have any reads in general of this game/is she reading it?

only infinity has been reading. I think kanna might be trying to catch up but idk where she's at with that

infinity thinks you're town

i was hoping to read you via your team
so uh... do they townread you yet?

So hopkirk, what is the plan if lld is town?

Is this what we call a TMI question?

If LLD is town then you're next LOL.

This is bad

i'm still sorting people. LLD isn't 100% scum here, i'm at like 40-45% on the slot being scum. how certain did you have the impression i was?

That wasn't what I asked

How do you look at the game if lld is town? Why is scum pushing this?

?
if lld is town then the wagon is still mostly town. i've said this, why are you asking me this? i have independent townreads on pretty much everyone who's been parked on the wagon and wouldn't expect more than 1 scum there whatever lld is

This is definitely coming at me from a starting position of wants to call me scum. everyone who's commented has told me the stuff you've said about me trying to start stuff is bad/actively insulting. you're taking 'counterwagon' is a word and trying to use one word I used (and people should know how I type/talk by now) without considering the actual thoughts being conveyed there. Wittgenstein would hate you.

I clearly mean like dueling wagons for that one and am including it with the counterwagons because it's another wagon with similar people to show there's been a bunch of wagons like that. instead of engaging with the logic/meaning you're choosing to jump on a word/the phrasing as 'scum' which doesn't come from good faith town as it's inherently not in good faith/trying to work things out. That's coming from a mindset of trying to say 'look hop is scum and everything he says is proof of that' which only comes from either town who's 100% (doesn't feel supported by your history)or scum who's thinking this kind of stuff is easier to attack people on than by actually engaging with the ideas

Noooope fuck off.

Counterwagon isn't just some arbitrary term on this site - it has a meaning that the players grasp. The fact that you want to try and cop out by hiding behind "oh I meant something else" doesn't fucking hold water with me any better than a strainer. You were trying to distort the narrative and the moment you got caught, you came in with "oh no I meant something else."

You're not town.

Eat a yeet please and thank you.

anyone who was commenting before about 'x is trying to appeal to a crowd' want to comment on agar before I remember who it was and ask them directly?

i was unsure if him adding "scum" to the end of that was a joke or not

Hopkirk is scum.

It's really that simple.

I said what I said.

except you can parse the meaning perfectly fine if you're not trying to pick at a single word?
everyone knows which wagon came first. scum!hop would have no reason to lie about the order. likewise, as town i don't lie about it
so why's it AI? why does scum!hop say something he knows is untrue when it isn't even relevant to the point he's pushing or any scum agenda?
this kind of nit picking the wording of something comes from scum a lot more than town
i want other people to weigh in on this point. this is scummy af

[Hopkirk]

-The paranoia Oka had about Mastina politically shifting her read on him to get him to vote LLD was very nuanced.

It may be nuanced but I'm not convinced it is nuanced in a way that is innately town. After all, anyone who uses the FL buzzwords is disproportionately likely to subscribe to the FL playstyle--including the false generation of this sort of 'nuanced' read.

-DGB linked a scumgame where LLD was being ragey scum. She feels less fake here, he can see her faltering on confidence of her read on hercule but isn't quite wanting to give it up (following up)

While LLD is less ragey this game, that is not a towntell. LLD is no more a chronic rager as scum than as town and she has plenty of rage-lite/free games as both alignments. Her faltering of confidence on hercule is something which I feel is more likely to come from her as scum with the way she handled it rather than as town. This one I in part am deliberately holding off from describing due to LLD not having posted the amount necessary for me to describe why I think this, but after LLD has posted more if you remind me about it, I will come back to this and explain exactly why I think that a town-LLD doesn't back down here or IF she does, the way she does so is entirely different from how she has done so here.

Basically it comes down to LLD doing something which looks town (oh right I forgot, in this game I need to use the buzzword and say LLD is doing something performative), rather than actually reacting the way she would as town. There's two ways I would expect her to be acting here if she were town, but LLD did neither, at least not yet.

neither of us think LLD is being non ragey. hectic is saying the rage feels more genuine here and i

kind of

see it, especially in the lead up to her leaving the thread for a while.

sure i agree and i think poe is op as fuck but rn i need a better reason than "not townie" to vote lld is my point

why?

that's a little frustrating to hear. ive tried to give you guys something to be excited about explictly, being by waning LLD townread to hopefully incetivize you guys presenting a concentrated post on how you connected the dots on lld being scum, but you guys gave me the BoP argument and want to work on a dgb towncase instead of doing some analysis. look im downplaying your case because i feel like there has to be something else that you just aren't mentioning, and half of me asking you about your lld argument is to figure you out, not lld. lots of arguments are flying around but i don't feel like they get to the bone, just a summary about what lld has done this game and meta tangents. the fact remains that there are enough people that share the same concern with me w.r.t. lld's wagon where maybe its not a me problem but a you problem.

i'm difficult to read this game?
im hiding things??

Spoiler: for okas eyes only

okay oka i went back thru our disc looking for the times we've spoken abt lld which was a lot of effort btw cus its gigantic at this point

its all paraphrased even my own stuff

auro comments that lld keeps attacking hercule but without giving reasons. scumleans lld.
i mention that im in general agreement with him that lld's push is weak/silly, and im confused why so many people are joining the hercule wagon

auro talks about how eliminating hercule is hugely beneficial for scum and pushing there is suspicious
i nod in agreement

auro comments that he'd be alright with a bop on lld
i say that i found that post really scummy, its over-bargainy and that those kind of offers never get followed through on, if lld mis elims OBVIOUSLY she's going to continue resisting her elim after
auro thinks its a town tell, and asks me if its ever happened before
i say i dont know

lld makes some kind of posting saying she forgot agar is playing and auro thinks this is town indicative for some reason

auro notes that lld still hasnt explained the hercule read and wants me to press it

auro has done some meta research on lld, and shows me the link i showed a50 earlier. notes that its the same basic thing lld is doing here

auro thinks lld is acting in a exaggerated way

i comment that it seems like lld doesnt care to have me vote herc with her

some general comments that the herc wagon is awful, and that he tr everyone who is vote lld
i agree with him

he asks me if im planning to vote lld
says he's going to perma tunnel lld if herc gets eliminated and revealed to be town
i say that i do plan to, the game is feeling a bit overbearing atm i'll do it later

auro says the behavior between lld and dann looks bad

auro says that lld is a capable enough player that she should be able to see that hercule has reacted in a town way, it's scummy that she's still trying to push it through to a kill
says that we need to be aggressive and prevent a powerwolf from eliminating a player who is clearly town

wants me to start talking about our dunn read, suggests that if lld defends dunn that could be an indication they are aligned

auro notes that lld townreads everyone who shades hercule
i comment that as we predicted, she tr dunn
i say i think there will be at least 2 mis elims before lld can go
auro disagrees, he thinks we can do it today

auro is starting to tr iv, particularly if x's suspicion on lld is correct

auro criticizes lld's discrediting of mastina

auro suggests posting our case on dunn, he think if lld is scum, and dunn town, then votes will fall on dunn easily.
i say that while i sr him more, i think lld elim will be better for the game
auro says he feels the same way

auro: noteworthy that lld asks dunn to change her mind on hercule
x: i sr the interaction
auro: why
x: the read on dunn looks manufactured, maybe its a position she's been planning to take
auro: i could see that. maybe she's realized herc wagon was an error, and wants out, and wants to elevate dunn's voice

auro: fabricating a lowering of confidence is a great way to escape from the situation. her ate is nai. tell hercule to look at scum games where lld does ate.

auro:
- scum make a plan of pushing hercule, who at the time was beginning to get townreads
- plan fails due people like mastina, dgb, us
- scum push forward with the wagon
- mastina talks about a game where lld!scum did this to xofelf
- over the top discrediting of mastina
- fabricated change of heart

i comment that one of the biggest reasons i sr lld is the way she's interacted with dunn

x: i really want to see a flip already this is taking so long
auro: lld is scum so of course its going to be slow

x: is there any chance that talk of lld's scumhunting prowess is overhyped and her reads are just wrong? im gonna take a step back, im tunneling too hard for d1

auro: if lld were town, what would we be expecting her to do here?
x: have reads that align even a little with ours?
auro: might be able to construct a case around that. situation in the game is also a factor in the lld read.
x: she already lost the bop she asked for imo. she tried to push herc wagon all the way, and im sure he's town

x: lmao lld voted us. kinda relieved after all these trs on us.
auro: yep.
x: makes me more confident in lld-scum again
auro: i think that would be how she'd react as town, too, though. oh, she's going super aggro on us. i'll be inspired is she can get us mis eliminated.
x: hope more people realise she's scum now
auro: lld is really good at utilising misrepresentation

auro: do you want to spend some time building a solid case on lld?
x: not atm

auro: dgb, mastina, herc wont move
x: im probably ok. maybe she's going for me to try and get tr, by having people talk her into voting dgb since she posted {herc, x, dgb} as the pool, ppl are more likely to tr lld if they think they're convincing her to join on dgb instead of me
auro: eh, im not sure

x: this is stupid. lld is absent, not giving reads other than bad pushes on me and herc, and getting townread for it

auro: lld looks like she's been lurking tactically, based on the timing of her post

auro: it's humorous how lld is constantly attacking credibility.

thats not quite everything but im tired of this
i dont expect this will convince you of anything but you can stop saying im hiding things now

sorry xtoxm, i read the stuff that's for oka's eyes only (i didn't even steal his eyes first), it's toooooownie stuff

i've reconvinced myself that the scum are just not doing anything as we yeet our strongest asset for no reason but i need her to come prove that opinion right by having some good takes and caring about the game

the 'strongest asset' wording here is so pockety/performative

[Hopkirk]

for anyone wondering about our thoughts in the team discord btw here's some more:

- Flopz's dad had his car broken into this morning at 6am when people were already awake. they chased the chief off without incident
- Zaiden refered to this as GTA irl
- I disputed the definition of stopping someone breaking into cars as 'Grand Theft Auto'
- Flopz suggested some funny stuff like 'locking them in the car' and we explained this was a bad idea
- I suggested it could be the mods breaking in because they wanted to show Flopz that his car wasn't secure enough
- Flopz disagreed because why would they be going through his CDs
- I suggested they wanted to organise the CDs
- Flopz noted they weren't organized and i conceded the point
- We speculated for a while about whether the mods liked us. we agreed they probably liked hectic since everyone likes hectic, but we aren't sure about the rest of us
- Zaiden is looking forward to post-lockdown chicken
- Flopz did not weigh in on this
- Flopz complained that as an adult i shouldn't be making as many dumb comments in our discord as i am
- I pointed out that Flopz is also an adult
- Flopz claims it's different and that he doesn't make the rules
- I asked to see the rules
- Flopz has dinner or something. hmmmmm.

[Hopkirk]

i'd really prefer to just delete a lurker today but it doesn't seem like that's an option.

which lurker(s)?

If someone wants to talk to me about their scum reads and shit, I'll do that.

in recognition of the fact that you may not be around tomorrow one way or another, i'd be interested in your thoughts on some of the lower content slots like agar, the worst, ythan, titus. i currently feel there's probably multiple scum in that group, but if you're seeing some legit towniness there and you flip town that's something that i'd legitimately still care about tomorrow. if you're scum i don't plan to mine your response for associatives i'll be a lot more interested in how others acted around you & your wagon than what you posted in that case tbh.

i'd also be interested in what you think of dgb. i'm guessing it won't be that it's scum with mastina, since that seems hella brazen. but that's asking for a bit more work, so like, whatever you wanna get into, i'm listening. i get that this game probably isn't very fun for you either way.

Agar town

Ythan... ehhhhhh

Titus probably town

nothing on the worst, sorry, read their replacement instead

talk to me about town agar?
is your tr on titus related to Mastina or something else?

Page 39.

Mastina
Danflorr.
Hopkirk.
LLD.
DGB
A50
JJH
Agar
Ythan
Hercule
Oka

Aside: Dunnstrall: Seems different, more communicative. Can't put a finger on an agenda though, so just null.

These are just initial impressions, not from team. I should be caught up by tomorrow.

different to what? i read this, thought 'obviously the last game', then realized you'd subbed in this page and that doesn't make sense

[Hopkirk]

@LLD on the thing with you/Mastina that you asked everyone to comment on

Mastina is literally saying, that when I say "if those 3 flip town" I am implying I think they are all not town.

Isn't Mastina basically saying 'if LLD's reads are wrong then the chance of her being scum go up'? I can see where Mastina is coming from based on that premise.
is this what you've got a problem with, or are you interpreting it different?
also Mastina am i interpreting you right here?

ah, isn't it great when you ask 'can everyone give their thoughts on this' and more than 1 person does. never happens for me. grrrr Agar

I wish I could throw this game and start day one again

I swear to fucking Christ...

fake

[Hopkirk]

also i am not complaining nor frustrated about the gamestate i am okay with 90% of the players so yeah okay gtg again

are you having more or less or the same amount of fun as last game?

lolsolve rn is something like {Titus, dunnstral, Cephrir, AGar} don't @ me

these people are all in my poe/the less null end of the poe

Agar, I'm not seeing what you're seeing in hopkirk

I don't feel it's all that opaque but I'll properly case it out.

It's more that I don't agree with what you've been quoting so far

For what it's worth I have hopkirk at around null.

I'm not sure how you're disagreeing with the recent stuff, it seems fairly cut and dry.

---

My strong suspicion of Hopkirk is based primarily on two prongs:

1) I think that throwing the "[teammate] was offended by the slander of RC and I'm gonna bring that back up a couple dozen pages later" bomb out there was a specific attempt to derail a strong player who basically BoP'd herself into a tunnel of vitriol and lost focus. Whether it took hold to me is irrelevant - the entire thing was unnecessary and again, I go out of my way to assume players aren't [redacted name] when it comes to "are they scum or are they incredibly incompetent as town?" scenarios. Also incredibly amusing when squared with this post. Makes you think.

2) Hopkirk has on more than one occasion posited something, and then when called on it, backtracked to say he didn't actually mean it

that way

and tried to chalk it up to he just used a word loosely. Throwing Hercule in as a counterwagon to LLD was maybe the easiest example to catch him on and also the one in which he probably thought he could get away easiest. There was a wagon on Hercule, and he legitimately tried to get away with saying he didn't mean counterwagon when he said counterwagon. Sorry, not buying that bullshit.

Lesser notes:

He tried to recycle the point about "appealing to the crowd" against me (by appealing to a crowd, lol), even though it was brought up in reference to folks trying to appeal to a crowd that they were town/how are people buying it, and any appeals I've made have been to convince people to

look at a scumbag

, which - last I checked - was half the battle as town. I dunno, find it pretty scummy that part of the defense would be "Hey he's trying to get other people to weigh in!" because it tells me he has no actual basis to disprove/dispute my read, so he's resorting to trying to undercut me instead.

He's tried to spin everything around that I'm coming at him with as "oh you're just personally attacking me, you're being mean!" when I'm explicitly calling this out as scummy behavior. Again - his best defense has been "oh I didn't mean

counterwagon

when I called Hercule a

counterwagon

". Sometimes when scum tells you they're scum, you should believe them.

I've highlighted problems with 1173, 1176, and 1187 and the gratuitous stretch needed to get those mental gymnastics in place.

---

Ythan being inexplicably cagey with Dann in the early 2200s. And Oka.

---

This:

I read the first half of the game quite closely, but have skimmed most of it since then tbh.

does not square with

this:

It's going to take more than a skim-through to solidify my reads.

And definitely not with having three charmin townreads and no scumreads.

---

Hey

@IV

i doubt it's an intentional misrep from mastina even if she is scum and you feel she misrepped you?

Very weird defense of mastina here. Why?

1- so you're saying i'm scum because i'd be a dick as scum? fuck off. you're leading with the assumption of scum!hop then trying to justify it back from this like hectic said rather than starting by trying to work out if it were a joke that i found funny (town or i guess scum), deliberately incendiary (scum), or other (?)
2- post the other times because the one you're referencing here is your scumclaim (note for Cephir, i'm only like 40-50% on scum Agar at best and i'm exaggerating the phrasing here). fun story btw - Hectic has clarified in the last month or so that i've been misusing the terms 'deepwolf' and 'pocketing'. unrelated because i know what a counterwagon means- a wagon in response to someone else getting wagoned (though if there's two wagons at the same time and one is picking up votes then the other does the the first one picks up more/solidifies then that is a counterwagon imo)- ydrasse can back this one up

you were appealing to a crowd. 'recycling' isn't a point against it because it having come up before about someone else (don't think you said it about me?) that wouldn't make it less relevant on you? plus there's levels of appealing to other people and the way Agar is doing it feels off to me and what to other people think?
the counterwagon phrasing is stupid. my meaning was clear and you DON'T get this response if you're actually thinking about my alignment at the time rather than trying to use that comment to support an existing characterization that is already garbage tier

point 2 is the worst part of this because it's coming from a position of assuming Hop is scum to try and work out the meaning. point 1 is essentially the same where Agar tries to say how it comes from scum!me without showing any indication of trying to work out whether it's coming from scum me or town me. that step doesn't make sense to skip in real reads, so the perspective doesn't gel

you have not highlighted anything and you're ignoring like what, 3-4 people (me/Dunn more than once/Oka eventually/definitely someone else but i forget who it was) who've said that my original joke was clearly a joke

[Hopkirk]

A50 is moving in the opposite direction in read structure from last game. Probably a good sign.

Lilith thinks Dunnstrall is town because they think he plays with an aggressive deepwolf agenda as scum. While here he's not showing much of an agenda. Is that accurate Dunn? I wouldn't know.
Says they're hard scum reading IV but also, they always scum read IV.

I thought Oka was less of a firebrand here, naturally on the same page I say this they go all scorched earth on Ythan. S_S liked his vote on LLD as a reaction test. But like, meh.

I can't read the auro through xtom filter, unless it's a 1 to 1 translation a lot is probably being lost. Is it against the rules to copy paste team discussion?

dogshit take
you cant read the 80% of my posts that arent auro either?
this is scum posting bullshit to fill out a lackluster reads post
you have one of the most active and supportive teams, and this is the sum total of their comments in 90 pages?
nah dude
you're scum

the auro/xtoxm interactions are what moved me from strongtown to locktown on you...

it's because oka's present and understandable and also cute and we have few enough people like that that we'd be making the game less fun by killing them

i don't especially think bell is scum yet; i also don't want to kill his slot today anymore because ive been told he is an easy read with a little time.

i think ythan is a good wagon because frankly i don't know what's going on in this game and nothing of value will be lost if he flips town. i am having difficulty generating and maintaining any scumreads i can feel good about, so why not aim for the "will always be null" pile. i guess i no longer think LLD is the worst yeet of all time because it would provide a wealth of information, but i don't know that i trust most of you to usefully parse that information and dannflor is probably getting shot tonight if she flips town and that will make me very sad.

i don't really feel like Oka is having as much visible fun? maybe it's because i was interacting with them around the Agar/me time when i didn't like the position i thought Oka was taking at the time, but they feel a bit less enjoying themselves

except you can parse the meaning perfectly fine if you're not trying to pick at a single word?
everyone knows which wagon came first. scum!hop would have no reason to lie about the order. likewise, as town i don't lie about it
so why's it AI? why does scum!hop say something he knows is untrue when it isn't even relevant to the point he's pushing or any scum agenda?
this kind of nit picking the wording of something comes from scum a lot more than town
i want other people to weigh in on this point. this is scummy af

even though i still suspect you, yes i don't think agar's point here is very compelling and it is the sort of refuge in logic thing that scum classically love to pick at

what about the rest of his longer 'case'
if you didn't like the point then why didn't you mention you didn't like it until i refuted it?

[Hopkirk]

except you can parse the meaning perfectly fine if you're not trying to pick at a single word?
everyone knows which wagon came first. scum!hop would have no reason to lie about the order. likewise, as town i don't lie about it
so why's it AI? why does scum!hop say something he knows is untrue when it isn't even relevant to the point he's pushing or any scum agenda?
this kind of nit picking the wording of something comes from scum a lot more than town

Because you're specifically picking a single word that, again, has a very very specific definition and trying to say "no I used that word but I did not mean the specific thing that has been defined on this site for at least 12 years".

"scum!hop would have no reason to lie about the order" Scum!hop just tried to slide one by and got called on it. Scum!hop was too smug and thought he could get away with one. It looks like scum!hop is doing something but scum!hop is just making shit up to support his shitty pushes. You literally used it to try and justify the wagon on LLD - you painted it as "one of many counterwagons to LLD." The only reason counterwagons are even being discussed wrt LLD is because some people are trying to use "resistance" that never existed to point out why LLD is scum, and you're just throwing more bad fuel onto that fire. I fucking wonder why.

I'm nitpicking a word because you have a habit of saying something and when called on it you're being coy with "oh I didn't actually mean that," and that's fucking scummy as hell because it lets you wriggle out of any fucking position you take with a simple handwave.

Eat. A. Yeet.

except this isn't a viewpoint you arrive at if you're thinking about the post and trying to work out the meaning
try asking people who know who i post and thinking about whether it actually is 'scum hop 100% manipulation' or if it's 'how hopkirk talks and makes 100% sense if you're actually putting any thought into considering the meaning'
there's no incentive to lie about something that wouldn't get me any benefit/doesn't actually add to the argument/is provably false so this just doesn't follow

ask me to clarify what i mean if that's your problem. you haven't asked me once to clarify, you just take a starting point of 'Hopkirk bad' and are trying to work your way towards it
show me the history and show it's scum rather than hopkirk communicating

[Hopkirk]

which lurker(s)?

how do you feel about ythan

my read is essentially: ythan who?
perma-null basically

[Hopkirk]

Okay, I agree with you. I also hit burn out BADLY.

See how I left the thread?

But we can form a block to force this game back on a good path.

So work with me. I will start caring again.

how do you feel about agar

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: lld

[Hopkirk]

I was just messing with Ceph but you're an accrual clown.

if you're calling him bad at posting his accruals rather than accusing him of being a clown who hasn't been paid yet then this is going far too far in terms of acceptable insults in a game of mafia :/

Mastina's whole posting is mentioning various factors exist to determine Titus town from Titus scum and that I am not doing those things. It's an outright lie which is why she never details the factors. The closest she comes is quoting posts from another game and leaving people to draw their own conclusions.

I feel you, I hate this kind of case.

Titus is town, AGar is town.

Ythan? I say lean town.

why agar town?

what's the basis for the ythan wagon? i'm getting v similar vibes from last game from him

tbh it seems like a bit of a bail out wagon imo

i started suspecting him toward the end of the original game and i don't think he's diverged too far off of that this game which leads me to believe its TI

infinity agrees with this and doesnt think ythans play here would make sense for scum

ythan feels the same as last game, especially to after the time i briefly voted him, but i have no idea if it's an alignment indicative 'same' tbh

VOTE: lld

i don't get why agar was going nowhere but eh

Sorry hop i dont want to answer ur questions do i have to

Bell we have 2 days left. Nobody wants to flip ceph.

nah, i'll just lean worse on you for it

[Hopkirk]

My thoughts:

I like Dannflor's posts. I don't know if he posts in a way that I'd find different if he were scum. He feels good

Cephrir feels ok. Last game I was actually suspicious of him but didn't like how the wagon was forming around what seemed to be his thoughts of Mastina, this game I'm not really, except that he sometimes reverts to feeling unhelpful sometimes

Okapoka, I don't think he's that bad this game, or that different. He's just not as towny this go around which raises some eyebrows

Agar is towny, people just don't like his playstyle/posting style. Most people probably skim past his posts.

This feels like town Mastina due to the amount of energy she's able to put into whatever she is doing here, and she somehow feels different when she's scum, like she's acting in bad faith rather than just being tunneled

Xtoxm feels tonally different from the last game to a degree where they feel town this time. I think their push on lld is questionable given the reasons they laid out being, in my opinion, bad, especially when they showed they're able to case someone

The way Innocent Villager is treating me is weird. I thought they were fine but writing this out I think most of their posting is nullish and they deserve more scrutiny.

Hopkirk, I don't really know, one of my teammates thinks he's town. I don't find the case against him convincing, which leaves him at null but not towny

Winter Flakes is indeed blending into the background, and I'm also forgetting that they're in this game. I feel like last game they were a lot more involved.

Titus goes between towny and scummy. I like some of her posts, tonally, others not so much.

Ythan should probably get more scrutiny from me, he isn't doing anything, he's capable of doing stuff, he's being unhelpful for some reason. I don't have strong feelings about this flipping scum.

LLD - I think the case against them is garbage, which has been brought up several times but plowed through. I don't find them particularly towny though. I'm trying to work with them here. DGB is easily the scummier of the two which is why I'm not voting on LLD.

DGB is really scummy and different from last game. Numerous people have listed them as a strong townread but I don't think that has ever been well substantiated beyond LLD being scum (what if LLD isn't scum?). Why can't DGB and LLD both be scum anyway? That feels more likely that just LLD being scum to me

Luca Blight - Hercule was alright, I think. I don't have an opinion on what Luca has done

Bell - Predecessor felt kind of scummy, Bell feels kind of scummy

jjh927 isn't doing much, but at least he can point back to posts and his train of thought can be followed.

Almost50 is vaguely towny but I don't remember anything he's posted int he last week or so.

so you personally have me at pure null?
do you have other thoughts on winterflakes?
why town!agar here?
don't see DGB & LLD scum being likely at all since LLD wagon would have already gone through in that case is my vibe

maybe ythan doesnt need energy to angrypost but i still feel like being mean to other people is something that does not come is a natural thing you know

like you have to be motivated in some sense to start being a dick

if ur in thread just shitposting i mean its probably fun to mess around, angryposting is not inherently fun. who sits around in a voluntary game and just spends the thread shitting on other people while not doing anything themselves. like???

i mean it depends on the situation, like what if you felt like everyone around you was being dumb then you got drunk and angry posted? didn't think of that example did you?

AGar is likely to be town the more i think about it

i am fine removing him from my current PoE

pedit: can you pretend it didn't come from mastina and just address the idea in a vacuum

why?

isn't lld also known for powerwolfing though? that's my biggest holdup rn

so?

hot take i think we should vote for scum instead of town

finally, ceph is being bold enough to say something i agree with. keep it up and i might have to locktown you

disclaimer - i'm agreeing we should vote for scum over town, not with any specific reads. any reads presented by ceph are only the expression of said individual's thoughts

[Hopkirk]

dann let's go dgb?

VOTE: dgb

for the vibers?

so why did you jump up LLD for like 5 seconds exactly?

dann i look to you for salvation

idk im just gonna like sheep cephrir i guess

VOTE: dgb

when was the last time you considered whether ceph is pocketing you? i kind of like your stuff now but it feels like you're just siding with every wagon that isn't LLD and i don't like the way ceph is pushing those. can you explain more about your lld town?
what would your read of the game be like on an LLD scumflip?

lol i love this dgb is my top sr atm this aint a compromise this is a victory

so did you vote LLD on the last page thinking it could be DGB+LLD, or that if LLD is town she's less valuable to the town that town!ythan would be? or something else.

@Xtoxm: I don't think LLD is scum here. I've just finished a game with her and we were scum together. Ceph was there too (also Scum) and we both don't think this is scum!her.

In fact, I would have expected Scum!LLD to target me for the D1 elim bc she has a low opinion of me as a player and believes I'm easy to push (she even wanted me to hammer a claimed TR of mine in that game, which she acknowledged would be a scum claim, because she thought I was doomed anyway)

So, 2 reasons why I TR LLD: Her overall play/tone is unlike hers in that game, and her attitude towards me isn't what I would have expected from Scum!her after that game

did she play that game too and does she have a history of being completely inflexible in terms of play?
i can see some townie stuff in her play, but it's rooted in the context of the wagon on her and i think i'd like it more if she wasn't heavily under the spotlight and acting around that. the stuff about her hard pushing you doesn't make much sense? so far LLD has just pushed like 4 of the people wagoning her after she got wagoned.

like at what point does scum!lld getting wagoned decide to push you when you aren't wagoning her, because she's only been pushing (with votes, as far as i remember) people on her wagon

Hey guys, quick question:

IF someone says "hey, BoP me, kill the thing I want to kill and if it's town, fade me"

and they go "no we'll kill you instead you're scum"

and then all your pushes die and no one wants to do them

so you finally compromise on a vote you're not sold on but appears to be the only consolidation people will accept that day.

Is calling that a BoP bad faith?

More importantly, if it's not, at what point do the arguments that people are making finally stop being "oh they really believe this they're just dumb and wrong"

and become bad faith?

How many times can a player like Mastina and Xtoxm be corrected on an obviously false statement, only for them to get away with it because "oh they're town don't worry about it"

People have been complaining in this thread all day about how people push me without any real reason, and all given reasons are shot down.

And yet you will never finally say "oh hey these pushes might be in bad faith"

why? Like how many times do they need to say things that are obviously and patently false like "LLD is pushing DGB" and then make clearly bad faith inferences like "we should BoP LLD if DGB flips town" before we start asking if the inferences and statements are being made by scum?

I want an actual fucking answer.

do you mean your hercule push that you slowed on pushing, your xtoxm push, your Mastina omgus push, or your recent sheeping the ceph-crew?
like i've tried to engage with you recently but you're just continuing to side with players that seem like other scum and i don't get the pushes as it fells like you're just doing it to survive now and you're banking on their help. though that makes me doubt they're all scum

[Hopkirk]

but like every 24 hours we get a flash and then its like the simpsons bush gif

Notably.

The LLD wagon has remained a constant throughout the day through all of those.
The hercule wagon was a wagon that formed around the same time as the LLD wagon. While technically the LLD wagon was a counterwagon to the hercule wagon, the two wagons were dueling for quite a long time. It wasn't as if the sudden formation of the LLD wagon caused the hercule wagon to instantly collapse; it took days upon days for the hercule wagon to dissipate, so the hercule wagon I am counting as basically an LLD counterwagon.

There was a DGB counterwagon to LLD that formed.
There was a small Hopkirk counterwagon to LLD that formed.
There was a the worst counterwagon to LLD that formed.
There is the Ythan counterwagon to LLD that formed.
I'd call the Titus wagon to technically be a counterwagon to Ythan rather than a counterwagon to LLD, but technically the LLD wagon still being around at the time means that technically the Titus wagon counts as a counterwagon to LLD.

Am I forgetting any other wagons that have cropped up?

The LLD wagon has been consistent, and yet the entire game, there has been counterwagons to it to try and desperately prevent a D1 LLD fade.
While all of these wagons have town in them and many of them aren't driven by scum, there's been a fairly clear pattern in voting where scum were at minimum happy to let the counterwagons happen and in many cases supported them.

Ask yourself--how many of these counterwagons had strong pushback?
The hercule wagon? Maybe, especially from me, but that wagon lasted for a huge amount of time.
The DGB wagon? Who aside from me was pushing back against it?
The Hopkirk miniwagon? Nobody pushed against it that I can recall, altho I will admit that even I didn't mostly due to it being comparatively small.
the worst's wagon? I think that wagon had zero pushback to it.
Ythan's wagon? I'm the closest one to have given pushback to it and even I couldn't in good faith push back strongly against it.

The one and only counterwagon with any real pushback has been the Titus counterwagon.
Maybe because Titus is actually scum and scum don't want to save LLD by condemning Titus.

The fact that every non-Titus/LLD wagon has had basically almost no pushback should be a red fucking flag.
Whereas the LLD and Titus wagons have in common strong pushback against them.

what is your read of agar's terrible approach to me, considering this?
i'm talking about the 'hop is scum for saying herc was a counterwagon and trying to confuse us' which is clearly trying to justify a hop!scum read

[Hopkirk]

but like every 24 hours we get a flash and then its like the simpsons bush gif

Notably.

The LLD wagon has remained a constant throughout the day through all of those.
The hercule wagon was a wagon that formed around the same time as the LLD wagon. While technically the LLD wagon was a counterwagon to the hercule wagon, the two wagons were dueling for quite a long time. It wasn't as if the sudden formation of the LLD wagon caused the hercule wagon to instantly collapse; it took days upon days for the hercule wagon to dissipate, so the hercule wagon I am counting as basically an LLD counterwagon.

There was a DGB counterwagon to LLD that formed.
There was a small Hopkirk counterwagon to LLD that formed.
There was a the worst counterwagon to LLD that formed.
There is the Ythan counterwagon to LLD that formed.
I'd call the Titus wagon to technically be a counterwagon to Ythan rather than a counterwagon to LLD, but technically the LLD wagon still being around at the time means that technically the Titus wagon counts as a counterwagon to LLD.

Am I forgetting any other wagons that have cropped up?

The LLD wagon has been consistent, and yet the entire game, there has been counterwagons to it to try and desperately prevent a D1 LLD fade.
While all of these wagons have town in them and many of them aren't driven by scum, there's been a fairly clear pattern in voting where scum were at minimum happy to let the counterwagons happen and in many cases supported them.

Ask yourself--how many of these counterwagons had strong pushback?
The hercule wagon? Maybe, especially from me, but that wagon lasted for a huge amount of time.
The DGB wagon? Who aside from me was pushing back against it?
The Hopkirk miniwagon? Nobody pushed against it that I can recall, altho I will admit that even I didn't mostly due to it being comparatively small.
the worst's wagon? I think that wagon had zero pushback to it.
Ythan's wagon? I'm the closest one to have given pushback to it and even I couldn't in good faith push back strongly against it.

The one and only counterwagon with any real pushback has been the Titus counterwagon.
Maybe because Titus is actually scum and scum don't want to save LLD by condemning Titus.

The fact that every non-Titus/LLD wagon has had basically almost no pushback should be a red fucking flag.
Whereas the LLD and Titus wagons have in common strong pushback against them.

what is your read of agar's terrible approach to me, considering this?
i'm talking about the 'hop is scum for saying herc was a counterwagon and trying to confuse us' which is clearly trying to justify a hop!scum read

[Hopkirk]

also

Ythan's wagon shifting so suddenly to Titus with no resistance and no real actual reasoning other than the vibes brigade restarting their shenanigans should be fucking warning sirens for anyone and everyone.

No resistance? Not sure about that.

But resistance is fake anyway so eh

Resistance was the wrong word, yeah.

But we went from Ythan 8 to Titus 4 in a page with nothing revelatory from Ythan and it was just a naked vote where y'all just seamlessly moved. Big dislike.

stop trying to rewrite the narrative! using resistance when it's the wrong word? wtf. obvscum. you need to be very exact and just because someone could easily get your intent/point if they were reading objectively rather than reading with a goal (not that i have thoughts on this scenario) doesn't mean it's ok to use words that

could

mean something else in a different context, but not the context they're in where the meaning is incredibly clear

ah, good old parallels

(obviously this is meant to be sarcastic)

[Hopkirk]

roughly where i'm at

Town- DGB, Xtoxm, Mastina, Hercule
Townish- Jjh, IV
Idk I like a bit – A50, Dann, Winter Flakes (an alternative account of the user formerly known as uncrowned)
---
Idk which falls into poe- the worst
Idk which falls into poe for different reasons- Dunn
POE but being pushed by other people I feel meh on- Ythan, Titus
POE- LLD, Ceph, Oka, Agar

first three lines after the --- are roughly the same tier of idk atm

[Hopkirk]

it's weird seeing so many capital letters in my posts nowadays woah

[Hopkirk]

dann let's go dgb?

VOTE: dgb

for the vibers?

dann i look to you for salvation

idk im just gonna like sheep cephrir i guess

VOTE: dgb

how?!?

[Hopkirk]

that was obviously meant to be a one liner post responding to you IV

how does that even happen. i quoted those among other stuff like five posts ago with other quotes in between. that's pretty messed up for a quoting function

[Hopkirk]

you forgot i was here? that makes me feel sad

[Hopkirk]

i kind of want to lol!switch from dgb to lld

i forgot about how much

i don't townlean cephrir so that is not a presence i care for on the DGB wagon

AGar is a vibe thing, posting has gotten better and more present lately i think, also feels more direct and substantive lately (but could be pushing an agenda). but im not sure about him rn

i asked @DGB for what SirCakez thinks about AGar here partly because he caught him as scum in AGar's most recent scumgame so im interested in hearing those thoughts

pedit: sorry hopkirk lol idk but tbf i kinda forgot you were in the last game too for some reason. maybe your posts just don't stick out enough? your avatar? lolool idk what it is your postcount is pretty high too

cephrir is town

because he mostly posts reasonable things and we occasionally "mindmeld" but much more importantly because dann is town and dann says cephrir is town is basically where im at there

uh, how's this meant to be read? did you switch on ceph between the two posts?

agar's vibes are terrible. if you forgot i was here then you probably haven't seen how bad agar's vibes are because they're terrible in relation to how he's posting about me. can you take a look and tell me what you think of his push?

oh so now my avatar doesn't stick out? wow. low blow IV, i thought we were pals...

[Hopkirk]

hopkirk this game is stressful lol idk what to do

sometimes when i'm having trouble sorting people i head over to the speakeasy and read through their post history in stuff like relationships, politics, sad and so on. it can be pretty useful sometimes tbh, plus if you reach the point where you're doing that then the weirdness of the fact you're doing that really takes away from some of the more general stress

just let go. let the memes into you

[Hopkirk]

oh shit that was a pagetop, now i look like a weirdo

[Hopkirk]

don't try and tell me Elli didn't do the same think though

[Hopkirk]

but obviously don't stress out too much about the game. if you don't solve it right now you'll only get mocked, blamed for the loss, and treated with mild disdain by half of the playerlist for the rest of your life

[Hopkirk]

what's your rough %s on Dann scum and town!dann being right on the read and Dann's actual confident on it come out at. i don't need a full Bayesian calc, but that feels like a big TR on Dann and is Dann that certain on Ceph?

i don't really get the first of the two posts based on that, are you basically saying you don't want to TR him but he probably is town in the second?