Newbie 2086 - Reaction GIFs | End!

[Cape90]

Here but I am busy rn.

[Cape90]

Here but I am busy rn.

Why did you feel the need to announce this?

I have the tendency to want to post early in games no matter what. But really idk.

VOTE: ahhlo

[Cape90]

So hi. I am Cape, I have only been playing forum mafia since the summer on a different site. But have played mafia and all that since 2016 first hopping from Town of Salem, to mafia.gg in 2018 until finally discovering th

[Cape90]

So hi. I am Cape, I have only been playing forum mafia since the summer on a different site. But have played mafia and all that since 2016 first hopping from Town of Salem, to mafia.gg in 2018 until finally discovering th

there was this forum mafia thing which I have become a bit addicted to :p.

Good job sending that early phone

[Cape90]

So... anyone want to get in an argument over something minor that is probably a null tell, thus creating some content for everyone to discuss and react to? That's how things usually get started, right? Silence is good for scum.

Oh, and sorry if I get mixed up and use the wrong terminology (if I ever say "rogue", I mean "mafia"). Old habits. Y'all use "NIA" instead of "null tell", I think.

Game is slow-ish but I was being entirely serious that I found cape's need to announce his presence in the game right away to be overly self-aware in a scummy sort of way, that early in the game not having posted should hardly be a concern for anyone, that he felt the need to establish that fact might be a sign that he's scum worried about keeping up appearances (there's nuances to this but not really going to bother with that right now).

If I were to call upon my chat mafia background to torture out some alignment guesses based on minimal posting, I'd call you town for being humorous in a carefree sort of way and trying to keep the conversation going, zefiend town for the slightly serious vote on you with a question, and NK15 as town for poking at George to do things. The others are potentially mafia.

I don't strongly believe most of these but if I'm going to force content might as well go in on it.



(I still use "null tell" but it is perhaps because I am old, it's definitely fallen off in usage)

"Man, I promise, I'm so self-conscious
That's why you always see me with at least one of my watches"


I am glad I can at least provide a conversation piece for the game as literally everything else that isn't revolving around me right now is, well, just some basic introduction posts. I didn't really take your push on me as all that serious. I dunno what you are on about on the whole "keeping up appearances" thing, like that doesn't make much sense to me. For context on why I do that, I usually play shorter games with more strict deadlines and obviously, that would mean that things move by faster usually at the SoD. Not like I expected things to move fast and all that. But eh.

I don't strongly believe most of these but if I'm going to force content might as well go in on it.

(I still use "null tell" but it is perhaps because I am old, it's definitely fallen off in usage)

I do get that certain feel of need to get the ball rolling in this game though. I don't know why it sounds like RIGHT NOW you are expecting yourself to have some really strong tell in the game so far, both the quoted strike me as odd in post 27.

Actually, I agree with catboi.

VOTE: Cape

This feels like pretty classic scum play already.

VOTE: notscience

[Cape90]

Why is that classic scum play?

lazy sheep on something catboi is pretty obviously not sure about.

I don't strongly believe most of these but if I'm going to force content might as well go in on it.

Just kinda reads as trying to appeal to catboi meanwhile trying to miselim me at the same time. Also if you are scum, nice job confirming catboi as town

[Cape90]

I somehow doubt it’d be that easy to pocket catboi.

Why didn’t I do that in my opening post, then?

this seems like a pretty arbitrary question. You know something I just noticed.

Here but I am busy rn.

hi guys gals and non-binary pals

I’m at the gym but will be here in like two hours

I don't really see how this is all much different

[Cape90]

Let's be specific- there was more than just the one post that catboi had an issue with

Right there was 12 as well. You know, two one liners that I started the game off with.

Often times, in a new environment or group it is tricky for new scum to know how to correctly immerse themselves

Right. Dunno why but I just felt the need to say something when I had really not much to say as it was my first visit to the thread and I always say something when I first look at a thread. It was awkward because I was checking it while I was, well, doing stuff, I didn't even read over the names.

But his entrance yesterday felt very inorganic, very forced, especially when I compare it to his early ISO in this game, where he is cracking dumb jokes and feels very relaxed overall comparatively.

Really cool. You literally could have started with that instead of

Actually, I agree with catboi.

VOTE: Cape

Which is absolutely hilarious that you wouldn't assume I wouldn't start assuming things. I call that out as bull as it is the type of post specifically formulated to invoke the type of assumptions I was making

Why is that classic scum play?

lazy sheep on something catboi is pretty obviously not sure about.

I don't strongly believe most of these but if I'm going to force content might as well go in on it.

Just kinda reads as trying to appeal to catboi meanwhile trying to miselim me at the same time. Also if you are scum, nice job confirming catboi as town

over here. I mean, isn't it obvious that I am questioning your motives, therefore, implying that I was wondering

why

you were doing things? Given the 10-minute gap between your first and second post, which I never noted, I guess it makes sense.

Cape automatically jumped to do 2 things- 1) Try to induce paranoia over my interaction with catboi (who likely *will* hold me at a similar length as I hold him, but I understand to an outsider they would be concerned about the familiarity linking up). 2) Jump to discredit and shade me.

You hardly had interaction with catboi besides "i agree with you" lol, that's hardly an interaction. Love your wording of this whole thing btw as it doesn't question my motives and starts you know... assuming things JUST LIKE YOU LITERALLY ACCUSED ME OF YOU LITERAL SCUMBAG LMAO. I am going to conf bias myself on you and take us both down ops style . Uh yeah, if I think you are full of mafia energy, yes I am going to discredit and shade you. Before this post, there was literally nothing to give

you

credit for.

His push on me, in summation, is "Buddying catboi" (who other than agreeing with I have not really interacted with yet), "Trying to miselim me" is not something town panics about, especially not this early in the game

Look I realize there are like 12 days or something left and all that. Point is, do I actually hold a

paranoia

about the whole "oh they are trying to miselim me" type thing? Answer is no. What I meant more was, the push just felt of someone capitalizing on something that I did that was scummy.

He panicked at the second vote, and felt like he had to try and create a rift and keep myself and catboi from working together.

And the point of panicking at 2 votes?

I somehow doubt it’d be that easy to pocket catboi.

History says I am in fact easy to manipulate.

But regardless, cape is probably fine.


VOTE: GeorgeBailey

Come out and play, George~

Not sure how to feel on this.

[Cape90]

I too noticed that notscience's post was kinda similar about being busy. But to be fair, he did call out 2 scum reads he had in that same post. For me personally, I did not find cape's intro to have scum vibes initially but the more I think about it the more I don't like it. Also, this could just be me looking too hard into it but the wording of :

I have the tendency to want to post early in games

no matter what

. But really idk.

seems scummy to me especially the bold part.

i don't see the problem with my wording there.

btw butterchurn is almost certainly town IMO

So... anyone want to get in an argument over something minor that is probably a null tell, thus creating some content for everyone to discuss and react to? That's how things usually get started, right? Silence is good for scum.

This entire thing probably never comes from mafia.

I noticed that as well. I personally don't think either are that suspicious of an action (the self-conscious mafia I think is somewhat balanced by the town-leaning-quality of wanting to give the most information and keep people up to date on your intentions). However, I agree that the fact that he voted over it (at least partially) while doing something similar himself is strange, and would like to hear why he thinks the situations are different.

And for that matter, does catboi see them as different? Considering the first one was vote-worthy, and the second didn't get a mention.

Like I guess 29 kinda had a sort of time estimate and all that. And this part

I’m side eyeing GB and NK15 atm, the former more than the latter.

had a little more going on in it in the same post.

I too noticed that notscience's post was kinda similar about being busy. But to be fair, he did call out 2 scum reads he had in that same post. For me personally, I did not find cape's intro to have scum vibes initially but the more I think about it the more I don't like it. Also, this could just be me looking too hard into it but the wording of :

I have the tendency to want to post early in games

no matter what

. But really idk.

seems scummy to me especially the bold part.

Slight scumread on this. A little parrot-y, and just feels to me more like trying to manufacture reads and content rather than natural thoughts, while also leaving himself open to go in either direction on the topic. It just feels fake.

Both notscience and catboi's latest responses seem fairly reasonable to me, no further questions there

.

I did actually read 2084 while waiting for this one to start (and just looked through it again) and don't really feel like cape's behavior here is incongruous with his early posting there

.

The retaliatory response doesn't feel especially scum to me either, as that's a pretty common town reaction

,

and I can't say I'm convinced by notscience's narrative of "newer mafia trying to intimidate a more experienced player into giving up on a chase"

.

This sort of flip-flopping kinda post probably only comes from town. I feel like if mafia were to do something like this it would make a lot less sense or heavily favor one side over the other.

[Cape90]

FWIW I'm not sure if you misunderstood that section or if I was unclear in my phrasing, but I wasn't flipflopping in that.

That was more poor wording on my part tbh.
It was more of the thought that you suggesting that my behavior here doesn't reflect my last town game in terms of my beginning.
But then suggesting that my reaction to the accusations were towny.
Like that was towny to me

[Cape90]

I don't really see how this is all much different

Notscience gave reads with his check-in post.

Yours felt performative.

Reads isn't the right word here, they literally said they were keeping an eye on you and not known 15, you know, at a time where you haven't posted and Not Known 15 has only said 1 completely NAI post.
Those aren't

reads

nor does it count as

content

but I see the argument that my opening could be perceived as performative in comparison.

[Cape90]

How does this confirm Catboi as town? Do you think scum wouldn't sheep their partner?

usually what I see from mafia behavior is that mafia would kinda sometimes do that but do it in a way that is less obvious.
Well, that's not to mention, there is only 2 mafia in the game so would mafia really go for that there? Like sure it's possible but I find it unlikely.
Also Catboi and notscience took the suspicion on me in 2 different directions with 1 backing off and one doubling down

[Cape90]

You can vote me if you like, I'm a fairly difficult mis-elimination but I always welcome the challenge

For the most part, I feel like this post commenting on a bunch of things is fine and I think I agree with what they were saying about Void and all that in terms of them probably being town.

But ew.

You seeing this? Usually I like defending LAMIST posts as NAI to leaning town, but this ain't it.

Will have coherent thoughts on this in like 5 hours or so

[Cape90]

You can vote me if you like, I'm a fairly difficult mis-elimination but I always welcome the challenge

For the most part, I feel like this post commenting on a bunch of things is fine and I think I agree with what they were saying about Void and all that in terms of them probably being town.

But ew.

You seeing this? Usually I like defending LAMIST posts as NAI to leaning town, but this ain't it.

Will have coherent thoughts on this in like 5 hours or so

Response to entire wall I mean

[Cape90]

Cape, why did you think it was someone taking advantage of a scummy post instead of someone thinking that the post identified as scummy came from scum?

I assumed this with catboi, but something just felt

off

with notscience's treatment of my slot and afformentioned posts

[Cape90]

I am not seeing anything AI right now.

VOTE: Not Known 15

Seriously? I know it's a slow game so far and it's holiday season, but surely you're capable of at least putting one single thought out there.

Yes. Everything you have talked about so far is NAI, and the responses also look like NAI so far.

How can you not have opinions on anything that has gone on this game?

[Cape90]

It's almost like I intentionally made vague statements to see if someone reacts to me by prodding for more information? To kickstart a game that had only managed about a post per hour it had been open, and is now three times the length since my entrance.

The entire point of this game is to get information and work with the right people to get a read. By holding that back (and clearly I had it! If you had asked instead of jumped I would have gladly articulated), I gave an opportunity to try and read you, to read the reactions of others around the interaction.

My concern with this is... well why? What's the point in being vague about it? (BTW there literally is none ¯\_(ツ)_/¯). Why would I squeeze this out of you instead of just assume things? Literally, who wouldn't just take your words at face value and believe there isn't ANYTHING deeper then what you had originally put out? How does it give opportunities to try and read me or whatever? You clearly don't have a problem reading my reaction and the reactions of others around the interaction, that literally happened either way.

If you know what you did was scummy, why is it weird people have an issue with it?

I wouldn't take an issue with it if I thought you were town. It almost feels like you are

overplaying

this day 1, does that make sense? Like you have a mission or something, like you are like... stiff and aggressive.

This for instance

To answer your question, I immediately side-eye SEs hard lurking in a game they should be taking the lead on. Apathetic gamestates are notoriously easy for scum to manipulate, as it typically ends in a deadline scramble based on who is willing to go where. I've also played opposite alignment to NK15 in both of our completed games together, and remember more action from him as town. It is rather stale meta, and it is on my list to go flip through some other games of his today.

Feels like an over justification for

I’m side eyeing GB and NK15 atm, the former more than the latter.

IDK like, it makes sense to me that you'd keep an eye on those players who you know more then Newbies who... you know... are new, at least here.

Also I think I agree with most of both you and catboi (60) on V0id at least to a degree, which probably just makes V0id town IMO.

And one hasn't really expanded on it, which is weird considering your initial problem with me was my lack of expanding on it?

you know I am not confused on why catboi initially voted me right? Like that's not the issue here. I don't find you scummy just because you didn't expand on your scumread of me. My vote/suspicion on you on 32 and my subsequent posts shading you were really to just see how you would react. It is pretty clear that my vote on you is a lot shallower then your vote on me. Honestly, didn't gleam too much I guess besides what I have already spoken.

viewtopic.php?p=12157572#p12157572

Me, in the secret tunnel hydra

There’s more but most of my isos are long as fuck and I don’t feel like wading through

You seem pretty different here then you are here IMO. I mean, yes, it was like a year ago, but are there more reasons for this?

[Cape90]

If anything, it makes me more confident with my reads.

VOTE: NK15

Lend me your swords, catboi and Void.

So, you swapped you vote. Why are you off me?

[Cape90]

Are you trying to make this difficult to read with those colors

yes, yes they are, it's because it's hogwash lmao.

I could have read the interactions after regardless, yes. But again, choosing the venue I did has (and clearly still is) sparked plenty of discussion.

But you don’t really care for my answer here I don’t think.

Oh wow look, hogwash! You fools still think they are town? What a joke. Just kill me and you get 1 free mafia. Notscience scared so they moved to Not Known 15. That's the redpilled truth. Scientists hate me.

”I have a problem with this because I think you’re scum” this is confirmation bias at best, hedging to fall back on later at worst. You understand the issue with this train of thought, right? You’re deciding on my alignment first instead of filtering the information through multiple lenses to try and solve.

You realize I literally never called catboi scum right? I seriously dunno if you realize this. PS could literally say the same thing about you.

Two reasons.

1) There’s more than one scum alive, so it doesn’t super matter which one I take care of first.
2) I’m giving you time to try and do things on your own, and see what you do with your time.

okay?

1) Have you ever actually just been 100% right on day 1 before? I sure have not.
2) I think that's a fair answer.
3) Nice answering this question and not the above LMAO.

Why doesn't cape care about the answer?
Because he's scum!

but then you say "2) I’m giving you time to try and do things on your own, and see what you do with your time."
and i'm like
"why does that matter to you? you already think I am mafia"

[Cape90]

Both notscience and catboi's latest responses seem fairly reasonable to me, no further questions there. I did actually read 2084 while waiting for this one to start (and just looked through it again) and don't really feel like cape's behavior here is incongruous with his early posting there. The retaliatory response doesn't feel especially scum to me either, as that's a pretty common town reaction, and I can't say I'm convinced by notscience's narrative of "newer mafia trying to intimidate a more experienced player into giving up on a chase".

Around here butterchurn, why were you still voting notscience?

[Cape90]

The pocketing or buddying thing is also pretty dumb. Talking about pocketing at this stage in the game is like talking about VCA (vote count analysis)

I suppose that may be right, I just don't see both mafia ganging up after me for the same thing so early in the game, that's kinda what I was trying to get at. You know

[Cape90]

Again VOID is acting like NS' #29 is really regarded as 'participation,' 'calling' people out, not just 'busy'-posting. I mean really, of all the posts in this game, and VOID feels like #29 deserves a second mention?

Look, @VOID, the following two statements do not co-align:

I just did not think it was worth mentioning at the time

I guess I am trying to make reads from the little we have.

If you were genuinely trying to make reads from the little we have, you would have mentioned it on your own, regardless of how little it seemed. And going forward, anything and everything is worth mentioning if you're town.

-->> I would like ONE (or more) original idea or observation about this game, VOID, that isn't piggybacking, third-wheeling, fence-sitting, or tiptoeing. I've played a lot of mafia. Not EVERYONE who posts loads of original thoughts is always Town. But ANYONE who never does, is always Mafia.

This might be the best case on V0id so far in the game and I kinda still don't exactly super buy it. Like I feel like V0id is

genuine

as I probably would describe them best?

I too noticed that notscience's post was kinda similar about being busy. But to be fair, he did call out 2 scum reads he had in that same post. For me personally, I did not find cape's intro to have scum vibes initially but the more I think about it the more I don't like it. Also, this could just be me looking too hard into it but the wording of :

I have the tendency to want to post early in games

no matter what

. But really idk.

seems scummy to me especially the bold part.

Like I know this is kinda just semantics, but I do kinda like it.

If you were genuinely trying to make reads from the little we have, you

would

have mentioned it on your own

Yea, I should have mentioned it on my own.

regardless of how little it seemed. And going forward, anything and everything is worth mentioning if you're town.

Thanks for the tip I will remember that and try to implement it for the future.

Quite literally, NS did not do any calling out of their "scum reads"

Scum read is the wrong terminology for that, I am realizing. Excuse me on that one, I'm pretty new to this. What I meant to say was that at the very least he dropped some names which was something although obviously very little. Yes, it was weak and barely anything but it was something.

-->> I would like ONE (or more) original idea or observation about this game, VOID, that isn't piggybacking, third-wheeling, fence-sitting, or tiptoeing.

After rereading some of these posts, something that struck me as odd was cape's post#49 where he says

btw butterchurn is almost certainly town IMO

due to butterchurn's post here

So... anyone want to get in an argument over something minor that is probably a null tell, thus creating some content for everyone to discuss and react to? That's how things usually get started, right? Silence is good for scum.

The choice of words of "almost certainly town seems really strong", over pretty weak reasoning in my opinion. Maybe I am missing something.

V0id takes me a little out of context here as he points out literally only 1 reason why I townread butterchurn ourt of like... 3.
I like the whole thanks for the tip comment tbh.

To explain, I did notice that even before you posted about it. I just did not think it was worth mentioning at the time since notscience did participate by calling those two out and it wasn't just a "busy, will post later" post like cape's. But I still did notice a similarity. I thought it was worth mentioning once I saw that someone else did notice it and there might actually be something there.

I guess I am trying to make reads from the little we have. As for leaving myself open, I do lean towards a scum read on cape but you are right I could go in either direction as I am unsure about it.

I feel like this type of wording comes from scum more often than not. Town can be uncertain about their reads but the language here feels overly cautious in a way that reads more like someone who doesn't want to have the "wrong" opinion.

You are right to think that the wording/tone conveys one of being overly cautious

. Because I was being overly cautious when I made those posts. But it was not that I did not want to be marked with having a certain wrong opinion as a scum. I guess I was just afraid of making the wrong read or messing up which seems silly now because making reads (that obviously could be wrong) is the only thing we can do as of now.

I like the bolded choice of words here in the beginning of V0id's 68 here too!

[Cape90]

Not sure how to feel on this.

Voting Lurkers/AFKers to pressure them to play is good, usually NAI though.

It gives slots more of a reason to scumhunt.

That... isn't what I was getting at there.

I somehow doubt it’d be that easy to pocket catboi.

History says I am in fact easy to manipulate.

But regardless, cape is probably fine.

VOTE: GeorgeBailey

Come out and play, George~

I meant with this top part. You find it strange?

[Cape90]

George is also a good scum candidate IMO.

He has a lot of posts that feel easy for mafia to make so far

[Cape90]

[Cape90]

I mean we could flip cape and see if that changes your mind on that read

vote: Cape90

Why are you voting cape, ahhlo?

BTW I think this is why ahhlo started voting me :p

[Cape90]

Also I think I agree with most of both you and catboi (60) on V0id at least to a degree, which probably just makes V0id town IMO.

Can you explain this? Why do you agree with both, when they (notscience and catboi) have/had significantly differing opinions? And why does that make VOID town?

Well it is more of like, bits and pieces.

It read to me like someone entirely new to the medium not knowing what tells are and aren't important

Like this from notsciences post, and I guess I could partially agree on V0id wanting to go off the ideas of more experienced players to form their own opinions.

To explain, I did notice that even before you posted about it. I just did not think it was worth mentioning at the time since notscience did participate by calling those two out and it wasn't just a "busy, will post later" post like cape's. But I still did notice a similarity. I thought it was worth mentioning once I saw that someone else did notice it and there might actually be something there.

I guess I am trying to make reads from the little we have. As for leaving myself open, I do lean towards a scum read on cape but you are right I could go in either direction as I am unsure about it.

I feel like this type of wording comes from scum more often than not. Town can be uncertain about their reads but the language here feels overly cautious in a way that reads more like someone who doesn't want to have the "wrong" opinion.

But I can definitely see this too as it does kinda read like scum trying to keep their options open.

I think posts like

i don't see the problem with my wording there

The reason I thought it was sorta scummy was that you could have just said "I have the tendency to want to post early in games", explaining it. But you added in the no matter what which reads sort of similar as:
"I have a tendency to want to post early in games even in games I am not mafia." Like I said, it could just me reading too much into it or making something out of nothing.

and

If you were genuinely trying to make reads from the little we have, you

would

have mentioned it on your own

Yea, I should have mentioned it on my own.

regardless of how little it seemed. And going forward, anything and everything is worth mentioning if you're town.

Thanks for the tip I will remember that and try to implement it for the future.

Quite literally, NS did not do any calling out of their "scum reads"

Scum read is the wrong terminology for that, I am realizing. Excuse me on that one, I'm pretty new to this. What I meant to say was that at the very least he dropped some names which was something although obviously very little. Yes, it was weak and barely anything but it was something.

-->> I would like ONE (or more) original idea or observation about this game, VOID, that isn't piggybacking, third-wheeling, fence-sitting, or tiptoeing.

After rereading some of these posts, something that struck me as odd was cape's post#49 where he says

btw butterchurn is almost certainly town IMO

due to butterchurn's post here

So... anyone want to get in an argument over something minor that is probably a null tell, thus creating some content for everyone to discuss and react to? That's how things usually get started, right? Silence is good for scum.

The choice of words of "almost certainly town seems really strong", over pretty weak reasoning in my opinion. Maybe I am missing something.

Are both pretty towny, and I don't find the whole "Maybe I am missing something" thing to really be all that scummy. Pretty sure I have already said I liked the comment about the whole thanks for the tip thing, and honestly idk how to put the reason why I like that. It just seems like a random new town quip.

[Cape90]

In post 49, Cape90 wrote:

btw butterchurn is almost certainly town IMO

In post 26, butterchurn wrote:
So... anyone want to get in an argument over something minor that is probably a null tell, thus creating some content for everyone to discuss and react to? That's how things usually get started, right? Silence is good for scum.


This entire thing probably never comes from mafia.

I disagree. While reading what happened in this game before, this post (26) picked my attention. It's just a bizarre thing to say imo. Too little for a scumtell though.

I think the whole silence is good for scum thing kinda comes from town, and it did spark catboi to do something more in that stage in regards to me.

[Cape90]

also can we stop discussing substitutions, idk about here, but it's against the rules where I usually play

[Cape90]

Are both pretty towny, and I don't find the whole "Maybe I am missing something" thing to really be all that scummy. Pretty sure I have already said I liked the comment about the whole thanks for the tip thing, and honestly idk how to put the reason why I like that. It just seems like a random new town quip.

I know you had other reasons for thinking VOID was town, but I still don't follow the logic (at all) for why agreeing with some aspects of both sides of the debate between notscience and catboi directly leads to implying VOID as town, as you originally stated.

it's more of a townlean and I feel like one argument holds more weight then the other. It really isn't this 50/50 split you may have going on in your head about my argument here

[Cape90]

Would it be accurate then to say that it's less about the fact that you agreed with both, and more that you found the town arguments to be convincing?

yes

[Cape90]

Would it be accurate then to say that it's less about the fact that you agreed with both, and more that you found the town arguments to be convincing?

yes

Okay. notscience was the one who made the town case. At the time you seemed pretty convinced that notscience was scum. Why did his case convince you of anything?

And if you only were saying that the town case was what convinced you,

why bring up your agreement with catboi's scum arguments?

What relevance did that have to do with the final clause of that sentence, which again, for reference said:

Also I think I agree with most of both you and catboi (60) on V0id at least to a degree, which probably just makes V0id town IMO.

i had the thought in my head before notscience said anything about it.

That is a wording that kinda threw me off too, so that's why I brought it up

[Cape90]

Not opposed to flipping NK15 atm, although if he's town and I get NKed, notscience should absolutely go Day 2. Don't think notscience is scum with Void, Greeting, or cape, though, butterchurn a general townlean, so if he is scum it's likely only with Zefiend or GeorgeBailey.

Why are you repeating the exact thoughts I had in the game right now?

But I don't get the Greeting thing though I think they have been almost entirely NAI this whole time this game. This is coming from someone who was hard defending them last game we played together.

[Cape90]

Then again, notscience hasn't exactly said anything since then to imply any less than a high level of confidence,

but I wouldn't really expect him to as either alignment.

Could you elaborate here?

[Cape90]

The way notscience dodged one of my questions then proceeded to answer another reeks of insecurity IMO. In a deer in the headlights type of way

[Cape90]

Alright notscience, I got an imaginary tin foil world in my head. Let's say I go through, I flip town. I think if I were you and you were town, I think catboi is probably worth considering. I dunno if I like them if you are indeed town

[Cape90]

Cape

I think if I were you and you were town, I think catboi is probably worth considering. I dunno if I like them if you are indeed town

Why not?

Starts with me not really liking this post for the following bolded:

I somehow doubt it’d be that easy to pocket catboi.

History says I am in fact easy to manipulate.

But regardless, cape is probably fine.

VOTE: GeorgeBailey

Come out and play, George~

Not to mention the opposite reads that went into the whole V0id thing. I feel like the aforementioned 60 is a pretty easy argument for a mafia to make here. And that's not mentioning 154 and 170 where it still seems a bit like LHF, though it is backed up slightly.

I don't particularly find catboi's content hard to make up.

UNVOTE: notscience

I am less confident on this.

[Cape90]

If someone hadn't mentioned you were an SE I wouldn't have known because your activity is dreadful. Someone else mentioned your posts look "easy to make" as scum and I tend to agree. You come across as lazy scum at worst and lazy town at best.

yes yes, that was me

VOTE: ɀefiend

I think your walls kinda feel to grandiose while me getting a queasy feeling that you know more then you should

[Cape90]

If someone hadn't mentioned you were an SE I wouldn't have known because your activity is dreadful. Someone else mentioned your posts look "easy to make" as scum and I tend to agree. You come across as lazy scum at worst and lazy town at best.

yes yes, that was me

VOTE: ɀefiend

I think your walls kinda feel to grandiose while me getting a queasy feeling that you know more then you should

Ok. Can you answer this now please?

You can vote me if you like, I'm a fairly difficult mis-elimination but I always welcome the challenge

For the most part, I feel like this post commenting on a bunch of things is fine and I think I agree with what they were saying about Void and all that in terms of them probably being town.

But ew.

You seeing this? Usually I like defending LAMIST posts as NAI to leaning town, but this ain't it.

Will have coherent thoughts on this in like 5 hours or so

Why? If you explained this and I missed it, feel free to just quote it. But if not, why is this LAMIST post different?

Oh my bad, not sure how I just kept glossing over that. This one feels different to me because I feel like it actually has this reverse effect where notscience worded it in a way where it actively discourages votes on them.

[Cape90]

I know two other players in this game, that is

catboi

and

Cape90

. However, both are acting differently to what they did in the respective games I knew them from (

catboi

from Newbie 2081 and Newbie 2082;

Cape90

from Newbie 2084). Therefore I cannot get a good read of either. So far this hasn't changed.

Cape90

is definitely more bold and uh... lively, while

catboi

feels less invested, even if he is more active than most players in this game. Perhaps I just don't really feel any of the directions which

catboi

seems to be on in this game.

Speculating on the possible reasons for this further would put me too far into meta territory and I wouldn't like that. It's too early for me to call town or scum for either having the knowledge of their past play that I have.

So I took a different route.

When I joined this game, there were three major candidates at E-3:

butterchurn

,

Not Known 15

and

notscience

. I read, or maybe more accurately skimmed the three cases. The

butterchurn

wagon didn't appeal to me at all, so I removed it from my mind entirely early on, plus this player is the closest I have to an early soft townread in this game.

The case on

Not Known 15

appealed to me more than the other. Especially since

notscience

seemed to have been much better in explaining their motives for their vote choice, it was logical and to me felt like a direction I could go towards. So I joined it.

Then,

Not Known 15

suddenly woke up and started posting. The more they post, the more they show that they don't care who goes down today - as long as it's someone else. In 156, they basically repeated the old case on

notscience

, based around their overconfidence and cockiness. While I can agree that this is odd in this phase of the game, to me it is more indicative of a playing style rather than being scum. Which is why I didn't buy into that case originally, as this seemed to me the sole reason for them having a wagon on them in the first place. Nonetheless, their reasons for joining the wagon felt artificial and, in the context of the situation, like a desperate attempt to save themselves by joining the most promising competing wagon.

But then the situation changed. Suddenly,

notscience

isn't being voted out anymore. And

Not Known 15

finds themselves on E-1.

Not Known 15

needs a backup plan, now! So here comes

Greeting

, let's make a case on them based on supposed new facts coming from their last two post and make it sound urgent!

That's the story told from my perspective.

Ya, I feel like I am approaching day 1 here more similarly to day 3 there

[Cape90]

I think Greeting is really towny from what I have seen

[Cape90]

In case it was unclear, by distancing I didn't mean distancing from a scum partner (I realize that's how it's often used, perhaps it was a poor choice of words on my part), I meant how you were expressing doubt on a wagon that you had already joined. If NK15 did get eliminated and flipped town, I would read that behavior as scum. And of course you would do it before his elimination is guaranteed, because doing it later and drawing attention to it is much more obvious and suspicious. From 2084 you didn't seem like the kind of player to hedge your bets or fence sit very much as town. If you were suspicious of someone you tended to have a bit of confirmation bias and twist more reasons into suspicion, and see anything through that lens (mostly noticeable when you made a case on marcistar). In this case it felt like the opposite.

But again, I'm still most suspicious of NK15, and if he is eliminated and ends up being scum, this point would be irrelevant, and I would probably townread you instead. So all told, I'm not that suspicious now, but it did stand out to me as a pattern of scumplay if certain conditions end up being true.

I think I correctly understood your use of distancing - and actually I also thought of it that way. It could be more versatile - as distancing from something

or

someone one wishes to not be associated with. So a scum could distance themselves from their partner in order to not get caught as associated and a scum could distance themselves from a wagon which lead to voting out a townie, or a scum, as part of distancing busses their partner. In this scenario, I would be scum who knows for certain that

NK 15

is not their scum partner and wants to look cleaner in spite of being part of a wagon that lead to their elimination, as a townie. However, my point from 244 actually still stands. Plus

NK 15

's last actions made them look much dirtier in my eyes, which is why my attitude also changed.

And the truth is, however, much simpler and is that the doubt is based off my past experiences of Days 1 in other games. The only game in which town actually managed to vote out a scum in Day 1 was Newbie 2081, and it was all pretty much luck (I hammered! ). I've also played 20+ games on other sites and it never happened.

As for Newbie 2084, ugh, this game. Had I not been Town Cop in that game, I would have pursued marcistar (not bolded, because I only bold the names of players of the game I'm currently in) until either of us dropped. Turned out she just has a very specific gamestyle. Perhaps my mistake was that I didn't look into her game history. Still, this was no longer an issue in the game past Day 1.

I am on the sidelines of this game, still, as I substituted in, instead of being here from the very start. I thought 6 pages wouldn't be much to catch up with, but I guess it will still take some time for me to feel less like an outsider. There are entire arguments, such as the one between

catboi

(jointly with

Cape90

?) and

notscience

that I'm kinda lost on. I think I know more or less what they're about, but I haven't read into them very deeply.

I would say mostly for this right here.

I am really not sure why I am only like the third wheel in Greetings mind when it comes to the catboi/me/notscience thing when I have been the central point of conflict there

[Cape90]

To expand on that last point a bit -- there's certain tells that people tend to find "objectively" suspicious, as in, they don't really require any nuance or gut to notice, and they usually are immediately obvious to people with experience. It's certainly not bad town play to call these out (as giving them a pass can allow scum to get away with obvious mistakes), and some people like to play with that "see tell call tell" mentality. I read a couple newbie games before this and saw multiple cases of experienced town tunneling on newbie town for making a flagrant tell or two, so it definitely happens. However, especially in games with a mix of new players and more experienced players, focusing on these tells is a pretty safe place for scum to hide. The "mistakes" (as they are mistakes whether the perpetrator is town or scum, since it's either suspicious scum play or bad town play) tend to be more prevalent among newer players, and it's hard to argue against someone who is calling them out since it's easy for them to make a logically sound argument.

Now, most of this isn't suuuper relevant here, especially because I'm still leaning scum on VOID from that earlier post even if the later one didn't push the needle for me, and if he is scum then obviously this doesn't apply. But, especially later in the game once we know some alignments, if I'm still around I'll be keeping an eye on those who make a habit of relying on this type of play.

How would you "keep an eye on someone" for doing something that YOU are doing? What nuances can you point to that would make this activity scummy? If we win the game based on this style of play alone, would the "see tell call tell" mentality still be something worth keeping an eye on in future games?

What I'm trying to get at is; how can you resolve your stated read of scum!VOID with apprehension towards others who are using the same thought process? It kinda reads like hedging a bet or future-distancing from a lim on VOID.

I sort of like the active backreading here, but it still kinda feels like a sort of

coaching

thing in a way where it feels just a bit off and like zefiend knows a bit too much here and possibly making me think he knows what alignment V0id is.

[Cape90]

Also zefiend feels stiff and asks way to many questions. It reminds me of my usual scumplay where I would ask a gazillion questions

[Cape90]

UNVOTE:

Well then, mason game hmm?

[Cape90]

Gut says zefiend's re-engagement with the thread is scumposting but nothing I can really express in a tangible fashion to anyone else in this game

UNVOTE:

If someone hadn't mentioned you were an SE I wouldn't have known because your activity is dreadful. Someone else mentioned your posts look "easy to make" as scum and I tend to agree. You come across as lazy scum at worst and lazy town at best.

yes yes, that was me

VOTE: ɀefiend

I think your walls kinda feel to grandiose while me getting a queasy feeling that you know more then you should

I don't like 215 because I suspect it may be trying to take advantage of 208. It is unclear to me what Cape90 takes issue with, feeling too grandiose as they said isn't very compelling

I am gonna be honest, didn't even really pay notice to 208.

[Cape90]

Assuming it's true my suspicions move to cape and void

You want to talk more about V0id? You haven't mentioned them at all

[Cape90]

Dunn, do you have other reads, other than Cape and myself?

VOTE: Dunnstral

This slot has not been doing much.
Only reads on me and cape, both extremely easy to fake.

How are reads on me extremely easy to fake?

PS I have played with Dunnstral scum before. They have a post count meta FYI (I think) (It is backed up by some games I have seen from Dunn) (they post more as town)

[Cape90]

Nor do I care about this really, the overall sound of it is desperation. Your previous vote also sounded quite desperate to me. And now that interest in the notscience wagon faded, you’re clinging to anything you can find. That’s sad, huh?

Is no one else seeing the perspective slip?

I don't see a perspective slip here more as someone appearing over eager to aggressively push you. That is what I see here at least. Honestly, eh, it's kinda scummy

[Cape90]

I've never played with masons before. Is it correct that their only power is the ability to talk to each other?

They also know that each other is town

In the matrix thing, I see there can also be a mafia roleblocker in this whole setup. Why would that be there if the setup is the one with two masons having only this power? Red herring?

[Cape90]

PS I have played with Dunnstral scum before. They have a post count meta FYI (I think) (It is backed up by some games I have seen from Dunn) (they post more as town)

Are you an alt account or from another site? I've never played with this account before.

Hi Ichihime, I was Okapicat from a recent hydra game we played together. Also I was mixing you up in my head for someone else entirely so my bad, I don't know your meta.

[Cape90]

Yeah what NK15 was doing was obviously town LMAO. The self vote in 343, the legacy stuff in 344 & 347, the obvious backtracking in 346 of 345.

Look I understand what what NK15 did was bad and they should know better, but you all should learn to read between the lines and not just ooga booga it. Maybe that is me speaking on behalf of my personal experience with chat mafia where I see a lot of questionable fake claiming from town.

NK15 has fakeclaimed. Do not listen to the above posts or react, just hammer and move on to tomorrow. He’s trying to fish out PRs.

bro you said this as PR? What is wrong with you? I am going to be generous and be thinking it was supposed to be taken as a red herring, but geez.

[Cape90]

Yeah what NK15 was doing was obviously town LMAO. The self vote in 343, the legacy stuff in 344 & 347, the obvious backtracking in 346 of 345.

Look I understand what what NK15 did was bad and they should know better, but you all should learn to read between the lines and not just ooga booga it. Maybe that is me speaking on behalf of my personal experience with chat mafia where I see a lot of questionable fake claiming from town.

I strongly disagree. What was obvious was that voting out

Not Known 15

who fakeclaimed and whose claim was rebuffed was the only right way to go. I believe

ɀefiend

's interpretation of

NK 15

's actions in 342 is correct - this was a gambit, albeit coming from a Vanilla Townie rather than a scum doing advanced pocketing.

My interpretation of zefiend's saying they were not mason partners with NK15 is

fine

I

understand

it. I think I see what NK15 was going for having zefiend in scumleans in their legacy in 347, it was a reaction test. Which is ultimately why the action comes from town. But by that time, I understand why it was probably a bit late.

I feel like they would be probably 80% town if they just rolled with the mason thing and see where that gone. As far as zefiend saying "no" to the being masons thing with NK15 thing, I feel like it is NAI. I would have rolled with the claim just to protect PRs from dying but that's in my shoes.

Another thought popped in to my head about this just now as I was writing that. But I will keep that thought pocketed in my head

[Cape90]

Yeah what NK15 was doing was obviously town LMAO. The self vote in 343, the legacy stuff in 344 & 347, the obvious backtracking in 346 of 345.

Look I understand what what NK15 did was bad and they should know better, but you all should learn to read between the lines and not just ooga booga it. Maybe that is me speaking on behalf of my personal experience with chat mafia where I see a lot of questionable fake claiming from town.

I strongly disagree. What was obvious was that voting out

Not Known 15

who fakeclaimed and whose claim was rebuffed was the only right way to go. I believe

ɀefiend

's interpretation of

NK 15

's actions in 342 is correct - this was a gambit, albeit coming from a Vanilla Townie rather than a scum doing advanced pocketing.

My interpretation of zefiend's saying they were not mason partners with NK15 is

fine

I

understand

it. I think I see what NK15 was going for having zefiend in scumleans in their legacy in 347, it was a reaction test. Which is ultimately why the action comes from town. But by that time, I understand why it was probably a bit late.

I feel like they would be probably 80% town if they just rolled with the mason thing and see where that gone. As far as zefiend saying "no" to the being masons thing with NK15 thing, I feel like it is NAI. I would have rolled with the claim just to protect PRs from dying but that's in my shoes.

Another thought popped in to my head about this just now as I was writing that. But I will keep that thought pocketed in my head

oh and if none of us died. THAT'S when I would have outed NK15's claim as fake

[Cape90]

I think I know how the scums found out that

notscience

was a PR. And it is a direct consequence of

Not Known 15

's actions.

Notscience

was

the only player

who did not withdraw their vote on

Not Known 15

after their claim in 320, presumably knowing for sure that the claim was fake due to their role. I did notice this before on Day 1, but then didn't pay very much attention to it. Now it makes perfect sense.

And I don't think a complete newbie would be clever enough to spot and correctly interpret such a detail, hence why at the moment I'm convinced that there is someone experienced who is leading the scum team.

I probably would have noticed that if I was looking closer at it. And I thought I was bad at hiding my power role status.

[Cape90]

He then seems to completely forget his suspicion on notscience and switches to zefiend based on very little

right I "forgot" about it LMAO.

Nice assumption.

I have my reasons for suspecting zefiend is mafia, it mostly has to do with some of the grandiose wording that he was using in his posts, it didn't feel straightforward like your posts do.

[Cape90]

The potential candidates I see are: catboi, ɀefiend and Dunnstral.

I feel the same way with how I feel with cat being the weakest of these candidates.

VOTE: Dunnstral

This slot reads as really wolfy to me right now. Given they were more towny in their hydra game they played with me where they were mafia, I am comfortable voting this

[Cape90]

Cape's posts around notscience feel weird

also you certainly didn't think this earlier.

You sure you aren't mafia?

[Cape90]

But looks like someone knew this was happening beforehand.

Wouldn't even be the first time town has gamethrown by fakeclaiming mason

The outcome of tonight shows that scums definitely know how to rolehunt, which points my attention towards the remaining more experienced players. I haven't seen half the enthusiasm from

catboi

this game I've seen in the other games, plus his earlier actions made me concerned about their motives.

VOTE: catboi

I took 356 as a response to 355, and not as revealing inside knowledge. And 355 was prompted by NK15's two posts right before it.

I don't think this interpretation is correct at all

[Cape90]

I am not a mason.

This is my first game back on the site in a long time. What I learned from other games is that too many people throw their vote around willy nilly. I am taking a new approach in play style overall, to try to use my vote more effectively.

It is why I ask so many questions and "stall" before committing. My Greeting vote was intentionally left naked. It was meant as a wrench in the spoke of the NK15 wagon, to see how people react.

I was not expecting this gambit from NK15. I have no experience with this sort of thing, personally. But my gut tells me that NK15 is scum trying to pocket me as hoping that I town-read them, to form some sort of "town-bloc."

I think NK15 was happy to see my vote on Greeting, as hopefully derailing the current wagon. I choose to interpret the fake-claim as pre-emptive while at E-1. And I pretty much agree with everything Butter's said about the slot.

No problem voting here now. VOTE: NK 15

This feels a bit overexplain-y.

I disagree, I think that this is their posting style and that a lot of people have commented on it this game but that it is not really a telling piece of information

I also don't think of newbie (?) scum as being overexplain-y

I agree with the first part.

I disagree here with the second part

[Cape90]

Dunn, do you have other reads, other than Cape and myself?

VOTE: Dunnstral

This slot has not been doing much.
Only reads on me and cape, both extremely easy to fake.

Well I think that notsci and catboi are leaning town as that is who I have experience with.

I think that your play looks opportunistic.

edit:

UNVOTE:

cool, this looks like something I would 100% say as mafia

[Cape90]

im awake

[Cape90]

I'm going to address the logical argument butter and Greeting had, because I find arguments like that interesting. It's one of the few times in a mafia game where town can get irrefutable facts. Also, butter was curious and nobody else really tackled the issue.

I think this is the beginning of the logical argument butter and Greeting are having, so I'll quote it for reference.

Somewhat suspicious of Greeting already from what I mentioned in 243 and 245. I would think that scum currently would be pretty excited due to the cop kill and generally being at an advantage at the moment, so I was thinking that at least one of them would be posting early and would want to control the narrative of things from the start of the day. Cape and greeting's posting early today both fit that bill, to some extent. Also still never was particularly satisfied by cape's answer to my line of questioning in 175, especially now that we know notscience was town. Would not be surprised for town catboi to be somewhat discouraged, feeling relatively neutral there.

Scum could also aim to lay low here. Would like to hear more from dunnstral especially, since his first post he's given a few opinions but with little to back them up.

Looks like I failed spectacularly to control the narrative then, because my

catboi

vote was ignored by almost everyone, and even

catboi

himself paid very little attention to it.

Butter says, "Greeting did -

X

- (make an early Day intro post to highlight suspicion on someone) with the intention of -

Y

- (controlling the narrative)"

Greeting says, "I

failed

to do -

Y

-. It's obvious I failed because I did -

X

- (make an early Day intro post to highlight suspicion on someone) but -

C

- (not getting traction on that suspicion, catboi) happened."

Butter's response:

Looks like I failed spectacularly to control the narrative then, because my

catboi

vote was ignored by almost everyone, and even

catboi

himself paid very little attention to it.

Results do not change intent. Second time you've used this argument or a similar one (244) when I would expect you to know it doesn't hold water.

Butter says, "-

C

- happening does not mean you did not have have -

Y

- intent."

Some time passes before the next reply tangentially referencing this argument:

@

butterchurn

That’s

your

interpretation of what I’m doing, so from my perspective your question has a thesis in it which is false. Might I add that this is has already happened in our last exchange. I already said what I’m doing and why I’m doing it and if you keep on interpreting this in a scum way then it’s on you and there’s nothing for me to discuss here.

Greeting says, "

You

(butter) say I had -

Y

- intentions, but from my perspective the

thesis

(actually a

premise

, but let's not get too nerdy here) is false."

Here is where logic begins to fall apart. This all sounds pedantic, but it is actually quite important. In scumhunting, logical errors can be honest mistakes. But, they can also be due to cognitive dissonance, which is impossible to 100% erase as scum. The town's job is to judge intent (which is at the crux of this argument I am commenting on).

The "thesis" Greeting is referring to is actually -

X

-

• Greeting acknowledges that -
  X
  - is true (which it is, the post is there for all to see)
  
• Greeting disputes that the conclusion -
  Y
  - is false, because
  
• If -
  Y
  - were true, then -
  C
  - would not have happened

The truth is, -

C

- (and

-not!C-

) have no correlation with -

Y

-. Using it as evidence against is faulty. I would normally err on the side of "honest mistake," because logic is hard and this site is not extremely logic heavy, but the following post makes me think otherwise:

If you're town, your most helpful response would be to point me to a time in another game where you sorted things out in a similar way, or if it is the first time, explain more about why you decided to do so in this instance.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I feel like me discussing your projections further is a waste of my time and an unnecessary source of frustration for me. If you think that I’m scum then just vote me and I’ll try to work with others.

After Butter calls out Greeting for faulty logic, butter later asks Greeting about a completely different topic and Greeting gets salty about the prior argument. Also, the "work with others" line has relevance to something else I noticed about Greeting that I will address further down.

Also, @catboi, @cape, @dunn and whoever else has a problem with my walls of text: you can go ahead and skip the entire post above if the logical argument is not interesting to you. It is mostly for myself and butter.

second quote makes zefiend obvtown

[Cape90]

Okay, a list, not necessarily exhaustive but these are things that are clearly unrelated to game theory:
- Your post 164 about notscience is phrased in an artificial-sounding way, and I talk about why it's suspicious more in detail in post 169

I don't really find this really compelling, but from where i am sitting 164 is really strange when there have been a whole bunch of posts explaining

why

notscience has been suspecting me. Like it has been most of notsciences' posts up to that point.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I saw this whole thing about me not really being versed in mafia theory, and this is quite true, I mean I know a little bit but a lot of my gameplay doesn't really revolve around it as much as I see from other MS players. I feel like if I tried that I would just end up keeping on overthinking things and not getting the right results out of it, plus I love talking mechanics as mafia because it is easy, when it feels kinda just more like a given as town. My dislike of killing fake/rescinded PR claims comes from my experience from chat mafia, though this usually comes from me seeing this type of play a lot thrown around lightheartedly in these less competitive style of games, so maybe they just died for the best even if I have had my disagreements, why am I back here

[Cape90]

@fferylt, is the Newbie queue player list verified as to whether each player occupies an appropriate slot of either Newbie or SE?

The original player lists are verified by the Newbie Listmod. Subsequent replacements are verified by the Game Mods. Errors occasionally happen in both parts, though.

Thanks for explaining. One could think of this as a genuine error, but it becomes relevant once is brought up as an argument. I will not remove

ɀefiend

out of my suspicions for this, specifically for the fact that they decided to use this as an argument to push their narrative when, confronted with the actual rulebook, is obviously incorrect.

I am just so confused on why you are having suspicion right on zefiend for being "experienced" at the game. How about you simply suspect them for the content they produce rather then an arbitrary "these players are newbies" "these players are SE's" like that type of thing?

[Cape90]

@

the post

I think the general theme of this text has already been answered by myself, but I'll requote with the bolded part being an explanation. And if you disagree then this is just simply an irreconcilable difference, and I'm not planning on playing to appease anyone.

I disagree.

I think having experience specific to this site, when playing a MafiaScum game counts more here than experience from playing on other forums.

Mafia varies by forum significantly. The vast majority of games I've played in and hosted were all pretty much a fun distraction from the general theme of those forums (which wasn't specifically playing the game). I've played with people who were in there just to have fun and things like mechanics coming from mafia theory were either non-existent or rarely brought up and didn't hold more merit than other argument that the players felt was right at the moment. In the mafia games I played in the past, players who rolled mafia wouldn't really do that much of power role hunting, but would rather focus on eliminating what they deemed to be the biggest threat to them at the moment. Role-hunting attempts were made, but it was something that would be considered more advanced play.

Here, the majority of players tend to use jargon and pay a lot of attention to game mechanics. Elements of game mechanics are even included in guidelines published in each Newbie thread (such as "don't fake claim a power role when you're town").

Although I did start to pay significantly more attention to mafia theory since I started playing here, I still had a rather fierce argument about it in the dead thread of my last newbie game, where I was strongly criticised for my actions in that game with excerpts from mafia theory being brought up as a counterargument. I'm visibly not part of the mainstream of this forum, for instance, I don't use a lot of mafia jargon and admittedly still often look it up.

In spite of all this, these games that I played were still the same sort of game we're playing right now - a game of mafia, but with a far more laid-back approach.

So yeah, mafia game =/= mafia game. And that is why I think there is an SE behind this. If it's not and it was

Cape90

, for instance, then it means that I'm strongly underestimating him.

On a side note, this heavy reliance on mafia theory is what I think was the source of my clash with butterchurn in this game, other townies in the aforementioned dead thread of Newbie 2084 and notably also Val89 in Newbie 2082. While I do take the general theory into consideration, I am not going to let it dictate my actions and I consider it to be my freedom to reach my winning goal in a way I see fit.

It's a fair conclusion but it's hollow. Literally anyone in this game can make that argument and go after anyone else in this game, so the argument is moot. If scum is equally likely as town to make an argument that can be valid, then the argument is worthless for scumhunting. Do you disagree with this sentiment?

Yes, I strongly disagree actually. This is such a simplistic take. If I agreed with it, I wouldn't have made such a point in the first place.

So let's recap. You give Cape a pass as town because his

current "strongest" push

on someone (me) shows "conviction," even though Cape acknowledges that his scum-lean on me "is not really a telling piece of information."

Please tell me if I have that right or wrong. And then tell me if that should pass as reasoning for town-reading someone who is scum-read by some degree to over half the players in the game.

No, that is incorrect. I already explained why I'm town reading

Cape90

. It hasn't been clumped in a single post, but can be seen scattered throughout many, especially my later ones.

On butterchurn, and others.

Besides nope-ing out of an argument that you lost with them, let's look at your more "positive" interactions.

You called butter the town's top town-read, but you also told him to just vote you and you will work with others elsewhere. Does that sound like someone who is trying to play the game based on associations?

You admitted that catboi is one of your scum-leans, but as soon as catboi calls out VOID, you immediately piggyback on the idea and say you're also fine limming VOID today.

So a player with 4 scum-reads on them (Cape) gets a pass because you trust them as town, and you like their suspicions on Dunn and myself.

But a player with 3 scum-reads on them (catboi), who you scum-read, and voted right out the gate, and commented multiple times how your push on them failing to get any pressure was a failure --

ALSO

gets a pass and suddenly you agree with this person about VOID?

Does that sound like someone who is trying to play the game based on associations? Or does that sound like someone who is opportunistically chasing whatever wagon they can?

I don't believe I lost an argument with

butterchurn

. I just felt, and still feel like that conversation had nowhere else to go. Like I said before, I'm not going to cater to the taste of other players with my gameplay. To tell the truth, I don't mind getting scumread for it and even voted out for it. If I have to take one for the team, I'll take it. Sometimes a townie's death can be beneficial to the game, and sometimes that townie is me. Plus people who voted me out might out themselves as scum for town the following Day.

Associations gave me harder data as to what are players stances in the game. If I chose to look for scum in that way then I can't just cherrypick data and post whatever I like. I posted what I considered to be the most relevant to me and my conclusions from it. If you have different conclusions then you're welcome to pour in your thoughts.

The other questions seem rhetorical or not meant for me. In case they are meant for me, as in the previous post you claimed that this would be something for me to respond, asking me to look at myself by the prism of what others may or may not perceive me is, quite simply, stupid, because I don't really need to convince myself that I'm town.

I am quite fine eliminating

V0ID

today, and I believe that I had expressed suspicion of that earlier - before

catboi

cast his vote, so the thesis that I'm piggybacking

catboi

is not factual.

It is also untrue that I'm being opportunistic with every wagon there is - the entirety of my actions Day 1 contradict that.

What I must, however, admit is that I didn't look into your past history and simply judged you were an experienced player due to your join date and, to be fair, your posts didn't sound like those coming from a complete newbie. I'll look into you more closely, but yes, you are right in pointing out that it is logically inconsistent for me to put you in with others in that pool.

That looks like an error of judgement due to an overly simplistic approach on my part and thank you for pointing it out.

which is weird because this has that thing I just said to a tea.
Not to mention it feels like some of these bottom lines are pretty weird and just feel like "I have to refute everything and if I refute all these things, that makes me town and the argument wrong".

I don't know if I am even making sense this game

[Cape90]

@

the post

I think the general theme of this text has already been answered by myself, but I'll requote with the bolded part being an explanation. And if you disagree then this is just simply an irreconcilable difference, and I'm not planning on playing to appease anyone.

I disagree.

I think having experience specific to this site, when playing a MafiaScum game counts more here than experience from playing on other forums.

Mafia varies by forum significantly. The vast majority of games I've played in and hosted were all pretty much a fun distraction from the general theme of those forums (which wasn't specifically playing the game). I've played with people who were in there just to have fun and things like mechanics coming from mafia theory were either non-existent or rarely brought up and didn't hold more merit than other argument that the players felt was right at the moment. In the mafia games I played in the past, players who rolled mafia wouldn't really do that much of power role hunting, but would rather focus on eliminating what they deemed to be the biggest threat to them at the moment. Role-hunting attempts were made, but it was something that would be considered more advanced play.

Here, the majority of players tend to use jargon and pay a lot of attention to game mechanics. Elements of game mechanics are even included in guidelines published in each Newbie thread (such as "don't fake claim a power role when you're town").

Although I did start to pay significantly more attention to mafia theory since I started playing here, I still had a rather fierce argument about it in the dead thread of my last newbie game, where I was strongly criticised for my actions in that game with excerpts from mafia theory being brought up as a counterargument. I'm visibly not part of the mainstream of this forum, for instance, I don't use a lot of mafia jargon and admittedly still often look it up.

In spite of all this, these games that I played were still the same sort of game we're playing right now - a game of mafia, but with a far more laid-back approach.

So yeah, mafia game =/= mafia game. And that is why I think there is an SE behind this. If it's not and it was

Cape90

, for instance, then it means that I'm strongly underestimating him.

On a side note, this heavy reliance on mafia theory is what I think was the source of my clash with butterchurn in this game, other townies in the aforementioned dead thread of Newbie 2084 and notably also Val89 in Newbie 2082. While I do take the general theory into consideration, I am not going to let it dictate my actions and I consider it to be my freedom to reach my winning goal in a way I see fit.

It's a fair conclusion but it's hollow. Literally anyone in this game can make that argument and go after anyone else in this game, so the argument is moot. If scum is equally likely as town to make an argument that can be valid, then the argument is worthless for scumhunting. Do you disagree with this sentiment?

Yes, I strongly disagree actually. This is such a simplistic take. If I agreed with it, I wouldn't have made such a point in the first place.

So let's recap. You give Cape a pass as town because his

current "strongest" push

on someone (me) shows "conviction," even though Cape acknowledges that his scum-lean on me "is not really a telling piece of information."

Please tell me if I have that right or wrong. And then tell me if that should pass as reasoning for town-reading someone who is scum-read by some degree to over half the players in the game.

No, that is incorrect. I already explained why I'm town reading

Cape90

. It hasn't been clumped in a single post, but can be seen scattered throughout many, especially my later ones.

On butterchurn, and others.

Besides nope-ing out of an argument that you lost with them, let's look at your more "positive" interactions.

You called butter the town's top town-read, but you also told him to just vote you and you will work with others elsewhere. Does that sound like someone who is trying to play the game based on associations?

You admitted that catboi is one of your scum-leans, but as soon as catboi calls out VOID, you immediately piggyback on the idea and say you're also fine limming VOID today.

So a player with 4 scum-reads on them (Cape) gets a pass because you trust them as town, and you like their suspicions on Dunn and myself.

But a player with 3 scum-reads on them (catboi), who you scum-read, and voted right out the gate, and commented multiple times how your push on them failing to get any pressure was a failure --

ALSO

gets a pass and suddenly you agree with this person about VOID?

Does that sound like someone who is trying to play the game based on associations? Or does that sound like someone who is opportunistically chasing whatever wagon they can?

I don't believe I lost an argument with

butterchurn

. I just felt, and still feel like that conversation had nowhere else to go. Like I said before, I'm not going to cater to the taste of other players with my gameplay. To tell the truth, I don't mind getting scumread for it and even voted out for it. If I have to take one for the team, I'll take it. Sometimes a townie's death can be beneficial to the game, and sometimes that townie is me. Plus people who voted me out might out themselves as scum for town the following Day.

Associations gave me harder data as to what are players stances in the game. If I chose to look for scum in that way then I can't just cherrypick data and post whatever I like. I posted what I considered to be the most relevant to me and my conclusions from it. If you have different conclusions then you're welcome to pour in your thoughts.

The other questions seem rhetorical or not meant for me. In case they are meant for me, as in the previous post you claimed that this would be something for me to respond, asking me to look at myself by the prism of what others may or may not perceive me is, quite simply, stupid, because I don't really need to convince myself that I'm town.

I am quite fine eliminating

V0ID

today, and I believe that I had expressed suspicion of that earlier - before

catboi

cast his vote, so the thesis that I'm piggybacking

catboi

is not factual.

It is also untrue that I'm being opportunistic with every wagon there is - the entirety of my actions Day 1 contradict that.

What I must, however, admit is that I didn't look into your past history and simply judged you were an experienced player due to your join date and, to be fair, your posts didn't sound like those coming from a complete newbie. I'll look into you more closely, but yes, you are right in pointing out that it is logically inconsistent for me to put you in with others in that pool.

That looks like an error of judgement due to an overly simplistic approach on my part and thank you for pointing it out.

which is weird because this has that thing I just said to a tea.
Not to mention it feels like some of these bottom lines are pretty weird and just feel like "I have to refute everything and if I refute all these things, that makes me town and the argument wrong".

I don't know if I am even making sense this game

[Cape90]

bro how am i sending messages twice like that

[Cape90]

Cape is obviously an experienced player, but your defense of Cape seems to rely specifically on the fact that they aren't officially labeled an SE

Thank You

[Cape90]

Digested that wall on Greeting, have thoughts but will wait to hear his response on it. Want to try to take a look and respond to some other things as well, have been less thorough than I ought to be.

I actually think it is a pretty solid wall and ze looks a lot better today

[Cape90]

Also greeting, you are looking far too much into the me being online vs my posting as a scum marker.

[...]

Is my playstyle THAT strongly reading scum to you, and greeting? Like I said in a previous post, "Like, I think I understand the principles behind the mistakes and why they are mistakes and why it could be seen as scummy but as for the actual content of my posts I don't see them as scummy when I try to view it from an objective outside perspective."

It seemed like a lot of people in day 1 started to read me as town after some initial scum vibes from most, I'd like to know what you think about me at the present time, and catboi's and greeting's votes on me.

My vote is on

Dunnstral

right now, not you.

My major issues with your play, other than the constant lurking are: parroting and lack of conviction. It is easy to say that "x is suspicious and I'll be looking into them" to get towncred for generating content in line with the game. But the content from you does not advance the game in any way. You haven't questioned anyone or even seriously voted anyone (I'm not counting your RVS vote as serious), which in my eyes looks insincere. Scums generally worry about anything that could put them in a bad light and a vote leading to a miselim is something that draws suspicion, so a possible solution here is to lay low and avoid taking definite stances. Your posts haven't contributed to solving the game and can all be easily manufactured.

Oh my mistake, misread your vote when you quoted catboi's post with his vote on me. I understand your points but I just am hesitant to vote and not because how I am afraid I will be perceived but just because I am cautious of voting town out. I don't know, there was time and I was not really convinced not known 15 was scum, and he was at e-1. Sure you could spin it the other way and say

I did not vote him because I did not want to be the hammer as scum

but... eh it was just simply as I put it before. And as for the lurking thing I would say to stop looking so hard into that as a marker as it is going to perhaps mislead you (in my specific case anyways).

okay actually what? Was this the right wording here V0id?

[Cape90]

I understand what butterchurn is saying, it does seem like a scum thing to put that list together in that fashion. Not to say town should not have their thoughts organized but I get what butterchurn is getting at in the post above.

But then again, if greeting did have a notepad file open with that as scum and was keeping track of people in that way for his scum motives would he really have posted it for all of us?

Once again, I see what butterchurn is saying and I am not ruling out that perspective. But,I could easily see that just as simply information gathered he is presenting to us to help both us and himself as town

. I guess it is kinda strange though.

I am also confused by this V0id post. I am not sure I am making sense of them as of late.

[Cape90]

or that I am scum

well, yeah lol?

[Cape90]

The potential candidates I see are: catboi, ɀefiend and Dunnstral.

I feel the same way with how I feel with cat being the weakest of these candidates.

VOTE: Dunnstral

This slot reads as really wolfy to me right now.

Given they were more towny in their hydra game they played with me where they were mafia, I am comfortable voting this

Is the bolded not an argument against me being mafia?

I am saying you are less towny this game, like significantly, but I could also be confusing you with Chelsea

[Cape90]

But looks like someone knew this was happening beforehand.

Wouldn't even be the first time town has gamethrown by fakeclaiming mason

The outcome of tonight shows that scums definitely know how to rolehunt, which points my attention towards the remaining more experienced players. I haven't seen half the enthusiasm from

catboi

this game I've seen in the other games, plus his earlier actions made me concerned about their motives.

VOTE: catboi

I took 356 as a response to 355, and not as revealing inside knowledge. And 355 was prompted by NK15's two posts right before it.

I don't think this interpretation is correct at all

What is your interpretation?

I kinda read them as separate comments, but looking back, I guess I could see it

[Cape90]

But looks like someone knew this was happening beforehand.

Wouldn't even be the first time town has gamethrown by fakeclaiming mason

The outcome of tonight shows that scums definitely know how to rolehunt, which points my attention towards the remaining more experienced players. I haven't seen half the enthusiasm from

catboi

this game I've seen in the other games, plus his earlier actions made me concerned about their motives.

VOTE: catboi

I took 356 as a response to 355, and not as revealing inside knowledge. And 355 was prompted by NK15's two posts right before it.

I don't think this interpretation is correct at all

What is your interpretation?

I kinda read them as separate comments, but looking back, I guess I could see it

A lot of questions were thrown at this comment I made and I was just thinking

"does this actually matter?"

[Cape90]

I don't think whether zefiend is technically a newbie or not really matters as much as how comfortable they are with the game. (The newbie rules are kind of wonky now that it's been brought up, though).

I think Cape is the better vote right now,

I don't see the 'conviction'

, I thought they were scummy day 1, and I don't think their arguments make sense on day 2.

VOTE: Cape90

this is gold because you literally just popped in ONCE and posted this, then just went away after you posted this. If you are going to argue that I lack conviction, how about you get some for yourself?
And apparently you are not mafia? Now that's the funny right there.

[Cape90]

Also greeting, you are looking far too much into the me being online vs my posting as a scum marker.

[...]

Is my playstyle THAT strongly reading scum to you, and greeting? Like I said in a previous post, "Like, I think I understand the principles behind the mistakes and why they are mistakes and why it could be seen as scummy but as for the actual content of my posts I don't see them as scummy when I try to view it from an objective outside perspective."

It seemed like a lot of people in day 1 started to read me as town after some initial scum vibes from most, I'd like to know what you think about me at the present time, and catboi's and greeting's votes on me.

My vote is on

Dunnstral

right now, not you.

My major issues with your play, other than the constant lurking are: parroting and lack of conviction. It is easy to say that "x is suspicious and I'll be looking into them" to get towncred for generating content in line with the game. But the content from you does not advance the game in any way. You haven't questioned anyone or even seriously voted anyone (I'm not counting your RVS vote as serious), which in my eyes looks insincere. Scums generally worry about anything that could put them in a bad light and a vote leading to a miselim is something that draws suspicion, so a possible solution here is to lay low and avoid taking definite stances. Your posts haven't contributed to solving the game and can all be easily manufactured.

Oh my mistake, misread your vote when you quoted catboi's post with his vote on me. I understand your points but I just am hesitant to vote and not because how I am afraid I will be perceived but just because I am cautious of voting town out. I don't know, there was time and I was not really convinced not known 15 was scum, and he was at e-1. Sure you could spin it the other way and say

I did not vote him because I did not want to be the hammer as scum

but... eh it was just simply as I put it before. And as for the lurking thing I would say to stop looking so hard into that as a marker as it is going to perhaps mislead you (in my specific case anyways).

okay actually what? Was this the right wording here V0id?

Read the words before the red part. This was in response to greeting saying that me not having voted anyone yet so far in the game is suspicious. I explained that I was hesitant to vote because I was not convinced notknown15 was scum. Greeting is implying that I might have not voted for him because I am worried about a miselim drawing suspicion to me if I was scum and I was the one to hammer.

oh yeah

never mind lol sorry

[Cape90]

The potential candidates I see are: catboi, ɀefiend and Dunnstral.

I feel the same way with how I feel with cat being the weakest of these candidates.

VOTE: Dunnstral

This slot reads as really wolfy to me right now.

Given they were more towny in their hydra game they played with me where they were mafia, I am comfortable voting this

Is the bolded not an argument against me being mafia?

I am saying you are less towny this game, like significantly, but I could also be confusing you with Chelsea

If you are saying I was towny in the game where I was mafia, doesn't that mean me being "less towny" actually means that I am town?

what are you talking about?

more towny

=/= towny

[Cape90]

The potential candidates I see are: catboi, ɀefiend and Dunnstral.

I feel the same way with how I feel with cat being the weakest of these candidates.

VOTE: Dunnstral

This slot reads as really wolfy to me right now.

Given they were more towny in their hydra game they played with me where they were mafia, I am comfortable voting this

Is the bolded not an argument against me being mafia?

I am saying you are less towny this game, like significantly, but I could also be confusing you with Chelsea

If you are saying I was towny in the game where I was mafia, doesn't that mean me being "less towny" actually means that I am town?

what are you talking about?

more towny

=/= towny

it should be clear I am saying you are more scummy this game then the game I have seen you (partially) as mafia.

[Cape90]

Alright Dunn, BET my suspicion on you is based on nothing and it's fake.

Also saying your not towny does imply that you are scummy yes. I was not implying that you feel anti-town but still working in town's best interests or however else you decide to interpolate that.

Let's talk about it. First, I already addressed 222 as I literally said that 208 and 215 have no connection to each other, I ignored the post when I made 215. But please shade me later on in 527 for that same post, you really are helping yourself to becoming outed mafia to me. Bolded already resonds to the second part of this funny post.
I find 323 pretty easy to fake. Just kinda feels like a nothing burger being like, "ah well, I played with these players before and they are town, therefore they are town exs dee, since I am busy spewing both of them as town with this, hopefully they will pocket me ". Yes I know this section is dramatized, I am just showing how I read this part, even if this isn't the interpolation here, if I am misunderstanding, I am sure Dunnstral is aware they are in a newbie game and should actually provide more details around this in order to back up their statement, otherwise, me and many others dunno what they are talking about. Also what is up with the whole "edit:" thing.
Well that was entirely too many words for such a simple post.
But as silly as it sounds, I buy them at least trying to pocket catboi. When Dunnstal was talking about suspecting me and V0id in 326. I had my concerns in 335 about this not on me, but on V0id who they have not talked about at all. You know what Dunn told me? Told us I should say? Well it's in 340 of course where they claim they agree with catboi's 319 which... is like a sentence. Compelling. And while I see glimpses of stuff there, yeahhhhh meh. Also I make excuses all the time as town, in fact probably more, I just straight up actively consciously avoid the thread as scum. I know I haven't been super active this game, but I sure have put more effort this game then Dunnstral, and this day 2 kinda felt a bit flimsy from me IMO. You know what the cherry on top of all of this is? Dunn hasn't inteacted with ANY of V0id's content at all, absolute gold.
Do I have to point out the last response in Dunnstral's 378? It is not very good. So Dunn goes right out shading catboi's 374 being like "oh I disagree with most of these reads." And you felt the need to point it out because?
I think 418 is really really compelling, good job. Really sold me on Greeting with your post there, another random suspicion that just so happened to pop up. Out of thin air edition. 420 doesn't explain it try again.
Do I have to laugh at how little conviction Dunn's postings have at all up to the point where Dunn shades me for having a lack of conviction 473? Honestly it's kind of offensive.
Being more scummy then your scum game does not automatically loop back around to you being town Dunn, you sure have not been TWTBAW. No it just makes you look like mafia lol.
Dunnstral if you are town, you needed to step it right up. I am.

That is my performative and dramatized PSA on Dunnstral the Menace. All accolades for this flipping mafia will go to me and make sure the next day to tinfoil me for bussing so I know who not to kill because of the Newbie 2084 game if you catch my drift.

Thank you.

[Cape90]

Nothing's changed my take on Greeting:

• OMGUS
  
• Central argument of "Does this look like a person working through the game by 'association'?" is still ignored and in fact strengthened by continuing to cling to semantics and rules
  
• Threatening to self-hammer. Seen this song and dance too many times from scum.

What's actually interesting to me at the moment is Cape's 180-flip on me. Somebody (Dunn or Butter, maybe?) said it makes sense. But a 180-flip is a rare occurrence for town, in my opinion. Scum are more likely to flip opinions on a whim.

I think it could be Cape sensing pressure on Greeting and getting ready to distance. This whole VOID thing is beginning to look like a red herring cooked up by Greeting.

You think 180-flips are a rare occurrence for town. Well sir, I will have to deduct points for being hilariously wrong as I have seen town do this a lot more then scum.
When I am king
You will be first against the wall
With your opinion
Which is of no consequence at all
Okay enough of the song quotes which I haven't done since the beginning of the game BUT usually when I see scum do this whole 180 read on somebody, it is usually backed up for usually a threadstate reason. I think threadstate reasons are valid concern for this type of behavior from scum, otherwise, scum LOVE to just kinda stick to their guns, but maybe that's just my

opinion

. Anyway, with how things are going, what is my motivation for doing a 180 on you? you say

what

, but you are not thinking

why

.
I could argue boring semantics like the fact it wasn't like a "180" not like you just got from locked hypertunneled scum to lock town never rescind, nothing like that, but I get your point and this section of my writing is kinda pointless lol.
I think we can both agree on Greeting as I mindmeld with 530, though admittedly an easy shot to take there, and I find it more puzzling from Greeting then scummy, though still a tinge on the oddly scummy side of things. Not to mention, Greeting's whole "this player is SE and this player is not SE" thing felt like a pointless exercise in WIFOM.
Oh and if you think my rescindsion of my scumread on you is because I thought you brought up good points in 442 good job. The fair conclusion comment addressed at Greeting holds truth in there, not to mention, roles are simple randomized and should be treated as such.
I agree that 402 does not hold a lot of "conviction" on my end at all. You know, it almost seems like you are quoting Greetings' posts without actually looking into what Greeting is saying beyond a base level here. This I take an issue with.
You know what, I also take Issue with this bonkers excerpt "...And then tell me if that should pass as reasoning for town-reading someone who is scum-read by some degree to over half the players in the game." Alright zefeind, you are boring, you are a sheep, Ima count you in my sleep. Majority of players suspect me so therefore when I see something scummy from cape, I will follow the pack and not even try to think for myself. Have fun losing, I will be there with you crying don't worry.
I got sidetracked so I guess I should explain why I got off notscience. So I post 182 yeah? They respond with 183 which I feel is a pretty towny response to my question and the part where notscience was all saying like that he would be willing to hear out a scumcase on catboi in 187 mwah.
But hold the phone there, if you didn't notice on 182 there is an implied doubt on what alignment notscience would flip here from me. You should get a fresh pair of lenses.
I felt like scum wouldn't question some other rando person on why they were pushing me like notscience did with ahhlo on 114, like if I was scum in the shoes of notscince I would take it as it were

as a friend

. Plus I started to think my push on notscience was plain silly anyway.
But I did like the butter question going back to 442 addressed to Greeting.
I guessed I was a bit mixed there, but it's not like I really explained what goes on in my head which I should have done way sooner, but I will be forthcoming and admit my laziness in that department and also most of this game in general. I can play this game if I am in the mood for it, thankfully, you caught me at the right time . Also, post feels genuine, I don't care how much you say I shaded it + yeah I agree with Greeting's whole whatever they are doing right now in terms of pushes weird.
pushing that aside 437 is town central. The hub of towniness if you will. There is no explaining why I think that is towny, literally my argument boils down to it looks literally impossible or at least highly improbable for mafia to make such a post and to come up with these assertions. As knowingly shallow as that is from me.

Anyway, adios amigo, if you have further concerns, I will address them

5 dollars though

[Cape90]

Haha, well catboi in 504 how do you like me now? Not to mention I think my one liners make thoughts a bit more digestible and not filled up with ten thousand words but I am sure you players in this game sure love walls, so you know what, I am going to do pedantic walls that don't get to the point, because that's how I do my walls usually and I can see how it could be kind of annoying as mr. nice cape is all of the sudden gone and thanos snapped, but it sure is totally exhausting.

I am a little confused with Greetings' 507 right? Like look at the top line and the bottom line here yeah? Why is Dunn on both the top and second line here??????????? I put all those because I really want to see the epic answer to that, I sure can't wrap my head around it.

Cape look at 508 smh.

Now regarding [post=#1320116Post 1320116[post5]507[/post]:
How about you don't hammer yourself Greeting LMAO. I know it is tempting sometimes, but it is blatantly an anti-town action, if you are mafia, I suppose you can go ahead but, come on. Sidenote: Usually if I see this comment from town, unfortunately, they usually give a legacy and follow through, but if they are scum, they repeatedly keep saying "oh, I am gonna do it don't worry" when they are at the position to hammer oneself, usually more then once too.
Later on when it's not past midnight, I want to look closer into 510 and see how much I feel like it matches up with whatever Void has been doing this game.
Yo butter, where has Greeting done the self hammer thing before?
Greeting are you actually serious you did it in Newbie 2084

AS COP?

(524). If you are going to do that, don't do it as cop...

I feel like if you were scum, you could easily echo butterchurn and ɀefiend and jump in, putting me at E-1 and making my elimination very likely. Instead, you're coming to my defense, like you did back in Newbie 2082, a game in which both of us were town. That shows that you're really using your knowledge of my play in a town mindset.

I don't know if I am won over by this argument on why Greeting think catboi is town here. Like catboi could just as easily be trying to emulate his townplay. What do you mean by the whole "knowledge of my play" comment at the end here? How you play as town in general?
You know what, I mindmeld with catboi on 519 if catboi wasn't spewed enough by dunn .

I am not sure whether to feel like 523 is towny or scummy self-awareness from V0id. "But my posts

apparently

have obvious mistakes and tells which people are reading as scum markers so catboi is using that.

Because they are pretty transparent mistakes and fair observations, it is easy for catboi to throw it on me.

". I thin k the apparently here contradicts the self aware tone of the italicized?

well anyway, I shall return later, make sure mafia quake in their boots while I am gone. I am going to say this because I feel like saying this but butterchurn is mafia.

[Cape90]

Greeting are you actually serious you did it in Newbie 2084 AS COP? (524). If you are going to do that, don't do it as cop...

...you

were

in that game, how did you fail to notice it? I didn't self-hammer

per se

, but I did self-vote.

i must have not been paying that much attention. Pro tip: Don't do that as PR

[Cape90]

Let's talk about it. First, I already addressed 222 as I literally said that 208 and 215 have no connection to each other, I ignored the post when I made 215. But please shade me later on in 527 for that same post, you really are helping yourself to becoming outed mafia to me. Bolded already resonds to the second part of this funny post.

All right, but he only has your word that you ignored that post when you made it, it's not like it's something he can verify in any way, so I'm not sure why you expect him to take your word at face value here?

Oh right, I am supposed to have a 20 page legal document full of video evidence and what have you's backing up my statements, I forgot that we weren't just playing a game of mafia where literally the only way that I could back this up is through word of my own mouth. OH WHAT HEARSAY.

SMH I ain't calling Judge Judy to verify everything I say. I flip town = I tell truth, I flip mafia = I tell lie. I have flipped neither, but you can use that simple metric right there to determine that lmao.

[Cape90]

well anyway, I shall return later, make sure mafia quake in their boots while I am gone. I am going to say this because I feel like saying this but butterchurn is mafia.

Elaborate?

Because I want mafia to be afraid of the sheer towniness that I have bestowed onto the thread. That is what you are asking about yes?

[Cape90]

LMAO if Dunn isn't mafia, Greeting is.

Please look at 575 it is bad. "Oh I disagree with you so therefore I am going to vote you". Ain't that funny how it happens. I feel like Dunn's observation on thinking V0id could be doctor is slightly towny IMO given I pointed out they hardly talked about V0id beyond light shading. Given Dunn IMMEDIATELY has to ruin their own towncred by being like "oh but it doesn't matter anyways lol roleblocker has to exist so it doesn't matter at all" then Dunn just hammers V0id. And no Greeting, I don't think it's a scumslip LMAO. Also Dunn, Greeting literally announced E-1 T.T.

LOL catboi 586, listen, if I am mafia, you literally gave me a good reason to kill you, y'all seriously cannot keep a PR secret to save your lifes I swear.

I also would not be upset at that votecount of 1-1-1-1-1 back there personally but whatever catboi.

Yes the butterchurn suspicion was a reaction test which I didn't really pan out too well in terms of results, only that Dunn looked slightly scummier. Should have been obvious I was trolling in 560

Re: 563, How about I suspect you and

Greeting

? I already retracted my read on zefiend (though not outside the realm of possibility I suppose. Though one post I will get to looks good for ze) and the butterchurn thing isn't a real suspicion.

Also it is funny, like in one breath zefiend is like, Cape is mafia, and then says most worlds I am in are a "nightmare scenario". I don't feel like I interacted with butter that much tbh. Zefiends' post responding to catboi feels like something bored town would do.
Bottom of 568 sees my zefiend and butter mafia team thought stare back at me and agree, heck of a team that would be.

One thing that pinged me about zefiend as of recentish is 443 as I see mafia making this comment a LOT like a lot a lot.

About 408 by butter, my mindmeld with notscience on V0id was another reason I unvoted notscience, I almost forgot about that thx. I looked at them as 2 separate posts, but I don't think it matters and Dunn might be right?

[Cape90]

Some parts of that didn't quite age so well. Anyway, killing Greeting is an admission to guilt Dunn no? Who are the two mafia Dunn?

[Cape90]

So anyway mafia, why isn't catboi dead? Is catboi your partner Dunn? I doubt it.

[Cape90]

dunn is the easiest lim tomorrow. if he's town, this will be tough.

Excuse me we can't afford a mis-elim here butter

[Cape90]

I'm VT, for the record.

Wasn't asking

[Cape90]

If you are town I literally never kill greeting here, because you would be a free vote on him that would win the game for me because of your tunnel.

Would be an outright gamethrow of a kill

. That's to say nothing of the fact that even if you did somehow re-evaluate and decide he was town, Greeting was most reliably on my side out of anyone. Completely absurd to think I make that kill from

your

POV.

A free vote, when literally nobody is voting ze. But now it is a gamethrow of a kill? What are you saying you and zefiend are mafia? what? Excuse me, do you know ze's POV? ze could be either of town or mafia.

I have many questions after reading this

[Cape90]

I feel like Dunn if they were mafia would probably go after me today and not catboi in 616.

"Yesterday, they had 5 potential pairings, and I was in 3 of them. V0id is only listed as a part of two pairings, one of which I was also a part of.

It technically makes a lot of sense for Catboi to have pushed for me yesterday, but instead they kept their vote on V0id who ended up being a miselim

."

I am confused by this excerpt in the bolded/red. If you are town Dunn, you literally

are

a miselim as well so bringing up the V0id thing is kinda ?

Do you think that catboi is not pushing butterchurn because they think butter is unelimable?

To be completely fair 617 is a good ol scumpoint for catboi

[Cape90]

If you are town I literally never kill greeting here, because you would be a free vote on him that would win the game for me because of your tunnel.

Would be an outright gamethrow of a kill

. That's to say nothing of the fact that even if you did somehow re-evaluate and decide he was town, Greeting was most reliably on my side out of anyone. Completely absurd to think I make that kill from

your

POV.

A free vote, when literally nobody is voting ze. But now it is a gamethrow of a kill? What are you saying you and zefiend are mafia? what? Excuse me, do you know ze's POV? ze could be either of town or mafia.

I have many questions after reading this

I am writing that statement addressing him. When I say "from your POV" I am obviously speaking from a perspective that assumes the person is town, because addressing things from someone's point of view if mafia is obviously pointless. I don' know if he's town but I have to critique his ideas as though he were.

I'm...somewhat surprised you don't understand the language here? I don't think it's that atypical.

oh. I just woke up so... Yeah I understand what you are saying.

[Cape90]

I am VT

[Cape90]

Yesterday, they had 5 potential pairings, and I was in 3 of them. V0id is only listed as a part of two pairings, one of which I was also a part of. It technically makes a lot of sense for Catboi to have pushed for me yesterday, but instead they kept their vote on V0id who ended up being a miselim.

I don't see why this thought would only become relevant after you hammered void.

Dunn kinda dodged this but I don't see here why this thought wouldn't be relevant. This is a pretty silly comment, it's called, they probably looked back after V0id flipped town and were trying to solve from there who is actually mafia with this knowledge. They probably glossed over this detail until after the flip on V0id. Yes I am aware this is a sort of motivation of either alignment, if they are mafia, this would simply have different framing.

[Cape90]

According to 409 I would say that catboi's townreads and suspicions are fairly diverse in the favor of them being town. Also as scum, they don't really have a good reason to not be suspecting me or Greeting as so many people were doing so and V0id was dancing around the idea of suspecting me and catboi said both me/Greeting were town. I am not too terribly sure that mafia has a POE like that FMPOV

[Cape90]

like what, he's just not thinking critically at all?

welcome to my thoughts on Dunn's pushes yesterday, though his push on you is way more coherent then his pushes yesterday so LMAO dunno why you are just now harping on it.

[Cape90]

I don' know if he's town but I have to critique his ideas as though he were.
.

Well right now I am trying to do this with Dunn RIGHT NOW.

With the amount of water you're carrying for Dunn you'd think his house was on fire

But it's obvious you are not

[Cape90]

you see, I was carrying water for Dunn because his push on you is easily the best push he has had this entire game that at least has a structure and a supportive backbone behind it. Dunn says I overreach with my pushing in 525, I wish I actually knew what they even meant here. Dunn also says they "don't see the conviction" from me in 473 which, no offence, had to be one of the most ironic pushes I had ever seen. And then there is stuff I already addressed like 222 which even if Dunn doesn't believe my explanation, I still find it a bit reachy, it jumps to conclusions. And then add the millions of times they call me out for comparing them to this hydra game where they posted less then their partner, which, fine, fair enough. And they say they thought I was scummy day 1.

[Cape90]

By the way, no idea when cape will check the thread next since he seems to disappear for chunks of time, but @cape if you're town I'm pretty sure it's correct play regardless of your suspicions here to not vote Dunn right away. Same goes for zefiend, I guess, as much as I doubt him being town? I'm not an endgame mechanics expert by any means, but that seems logical to me. We can at least wait and see if the game is over or not, because then we have more information.

Yeah you are right I should vote Dunn right away! Thanks for the tip!

Trust me after Newbie 2084, I will avoid plays like that.

Obviously one of catboi/dunn are mafia here. Every second this day ticks by, I am starting to lean a bit towards it being catboi

[Cape90]

zefiend calling out catboi to specifically ask how he feels about the game state is weird, but feels too obvious to me (then again, if zefiend is scum, I think he's done several obviously strange things, so maybe he wouldn't see an issue with it, although I imagine catboi would not be very appreciative of it if they were indeed partners), and his interactions with catboi early don't feel that scum-partner-y to me.

could you point towards where this comes from?

[Cape90]

I don't have the time or motivation at present to address all of zefiend's arguments against greeting but I will just say that being illogical and at times inconsistent in reasoning is not a scumtell, and zefiend overly nitpicky and inflexible in his thinking. Scum can play that archetype but if I had to guess at that moment I'd say he's town, just a bit set in his ways.

I have seen comments like this addressed from scum to town.

"zefiend overly nitpicky and inflexible in his thinking. Scum can play that archetype but if I had to guess at that moment I'd say he's town, just a bit set in his ways."

This sort of quasi defending of zefiend's thought process strikes me as really strange to me and makes me feel like catboi has more information on zefiend as they let on. I had this thought while continuing to read 667

[Cape90]

Dunn's vote on cape feels kinda random, as he has previously expressed suspicions of void and Greeting, both of whom have votes already.

I don't feel this way at all on Dunns' push on me as he talked about me a whole lot in detail, meanwhile the V0id thing was like 2 posts and only one of those addressed V0id by name

[Cape90]

I've played enough wuith dunn to know the arguments he's pushing are crap.

I believe that this stance is made-up and cannot be supported.

catboi might as well avoid this comment we really got them on the ropes Dunn

[Cape90]

@Catboi, obligatory thoughts on all this. We have 8, 9? days to poke GB and the other lurkers. I want you to get in now while the getting's good.

Okay cool I got the silly openwolving out of my system, be sure to push me on that wolves! On 54 I have no comment about what to think about this random ping at the end of this post, but I wouldn't call it unpartnery, just flat out strange and feels like it needs a bit of context when there is less then I thought on just pinging this one random person for their opinions of this post.

[Cape90]

Earlier you said if I'm scum the Greeting kill doesn't make sense unless I was planning to bus.

I did not. I said that about Dunn. Very interesting that you mixed those up, though. Since before the kill even came in, I thought that only teams with you on them would kill Greeting. The change in opinion that I've had is that I see it could be possible for Dunn to be scum (specifically, with you), where previously I thought the kill only made sense if he were town.

2) Do you think scum!me spends an entire day pushing Greeting instead of lazy sheeping on VOID, only to lazy-kill Greeting the following night?

Yes, obviously I do. I think Greeting is a bit of a weird kill no matter who the scumteam is, but clearly

someone

thought it was the best choice, and I think any team without you on it would be much less likely to opt for that route.

This is all post-hoc rationalization. I 1000% do not kill Greeting last night if I'm scum.

Your focus on me today is very telling.

I do not suspect Cape will hand me the hammer, but im not ready to hand it to him either yet. I want to be able to figure out if a bus is occuring. And, like all game, butter is hedging their bets and opinions to be opportune.

Where are you at with the whole catboi/zefiend thing?

[Cape90]

I am going to question the reasoning of others and how they apply even if their approach differs from how I'm approaching the day. My goal in doing so is to try to understand and critique their logic. Cape very specifically gave a conditional of me-scum, zefiend-town, so I want to know who he possibly thinks I'm teamed with in that scenario.


And for the record, I am forming reads based off talking to people but reserve the to not commit to an exact answer at this point in time. My focus is on getting step 1 right. But asking questions and interacting is how I plan to figure things out.

I mean, it's not like you're really committing to an answer, either - you've left the possibilities as me/cape and me/zefiend, and have taken basically ~no steps to figure things out.

You know, I was kinda doing the same thing you were doing to where I was thinking of, you know, pressuring the slot I felt was the scummiest versus looking for partners, btw what happened to that ideology?

Well, the answer in that world feels obvious to me, but I don't think butterchurn is mafia right now. I mean, if you want to spew you and zefiend as both Mafia together go right ahead.

Yes I do know better then to think that 2 SE players would go out of their way to cross bus each other in ELO.

[Cape90]

It just struck me that there is probably a reason that cape is suddenly suspicious of me that cannot be discussed due to site rules. That is unfortunate.

Will try to respond to butterchurn later.

It isn't because of that fwiw. I am kinda on the road so I'ma get back to you on that a little later today

[Cape90]

It just struck me that there is probably a reason that cape is suddenly suspicious of me that cannot be discussed due to site rules. That is unfortunate.

Will try to respond to butterchurn later.

It isn't because of that fwiw. I am kinda on the road so I'ma get back to you on that a little later today

You remember when I had some suspicion on you day 1 no? I'm revisiting that

[Cape90]

My focus is still on Dunn,

but I am voting him, and he is close to confirmed scum to me.

That means I move from trying to decide who is scum to talking to other people, trying to convince them Dunn is scum, and maybe, hopefully, get a read on them that way.

He literally

is

confirmed scum to you in all worlds. Where is Dunn not?

[Cape90]

Butterchurn stop stealing my thoughts plz

[Cape90]

I don't think cross-bussing in ELO is nearly as invalid a tactic as you believe it to be. (thousands of chat games' worth of experience suggests otherwise)

I would say chat games don't exactly super translate to this format. Plus I feel like both of you could easily try to push zefiend or myself so

[Cape90]

Earlier you said if I'm scum the Greeting kill doesn't make sense unless I was planning to bus.

I did not. I said that about Dunn. Very interesting that you mixed those up, though. Since before the kill even came in, I thought that only teams with you on them would kill Greeting. The change in opinion that I've had is that I see it could be possible for Dunn to be scum (specifically, with you), where previously I thought the kill only made sense if he were town.

2) Do you think scum!me spends an entire day pushing Greeting instead of lazy sheeping on VOID, only to lazy-kill Greeting the following night?

Yes, obviously I do. I think Greeting is a bit of a weird kill no matter who the scumteam is, but clearly

someone

thought it was the best choice, and I think any team without you on it would be much less likely to opt for that route.

This is all post-hoc rationalization. I 1000% do not kill Greeting last night if I'm scum.

Your focus on me today is very telling.

I do not suspect Cape will hand me the hammer, but im not ready to hand it to him either yet. I want to be able to figure out if a bus is occuring. And, like all game, butter is hedging their bets and opinions to be opportune.

Where are you at with the whole catboi/zefiend thing?

You mean catboi/Dunn?

No idea. I thought I would be easily pulled towards scum!Dunn but with butter's behavior I am not sure AT ALL anymore. As the day goes on I must admit I am more comfortable with you hammering but as it stands I will NOT be voting before butter.

Yes my apologies, I guess when I am being driven, my thoughts don't like to work.
If it is fine with you, I am not comfortable with picking sides right now here and want to think it over some more. I found 718, 721 - 723 too all be towny from catboi. I kinda want Dunn to like, come here, I have been waiting for him

[Cape90]

I apologize for the inactivity, I was kinda tinfoiling catboi early on for jumping straight away into the "I am fine" camp which is not what notscince did and notsci kept pushing me and catboi retracted the suspicion as early as 44. I pressed on this as early as 182 on catboi. Like 60 felt icky to me as well, mostly because I heavily disagreed. I thought that 109 at the bottom looked insecure.

Right now my mental is shifting again back to Dunn because at least in the game that I saw catboi link not to long ago where Dunn was town and catboi was scum, Dunn was much more active consistently, meanwhile Dunn over here when he is in a critical spot just posts 735 and disappears from the realm of reality, not the first time Dunn made a single post then left. It seems unlike them in the town game that catboi linked. Catboi in the scum game they linked kinda does this similar thing that I do in scum games where they would do this whole quotewall thing on a player and give like a sentence or so on their read on the player based on the quotes they pulled up (this is based on the game in 725 and no it isn't the post they linked).

[Cape90]

In a game about reaction GIFs, I have to say Dunn, your anti-spew is boring.

[Cape90]

I don't think cross-bussing in ELO is nearly as invalid a tactic as you believe it to be. (thousands of chat games' worth of experience suggests otherwise)

I would say chat games don't exactly super translate to this format. Plus I feel like both of you could easily try to push zefiend or myself so

I think it's an entirely valid move strategically but wouldn't try it given what other people's reads were.

I get it is a valid strategy, but right now as the gamestate is, it feels extremely silly right now in a game where only town has died, it is a more understandable strategy in a bigger game IMO rather then a 2 scum game

[Cape90]

Personally, I already think one of you or dunn is scum, so I'm going to continue as if the game isn't lost.

I like the rest of this post, but I really don't know why you just felt the need to bring this up when it seemed pretty obvious even at that point, even if zefiend is mafia, like if I was mafia with zefiend, I could have literally arranged a time with ze to have this hammered by now. From your POV if you are town and both Dunn/catboi were innocent, this would mean the mafia would be both me/zefiend, which IMO I think was a valid world given I was kinda pushing zefeind day 1, then backed off, then have hardly talked about him today, bleh, anyway, this is why I bring this up.

[Cape90]

Or are you saying I shouldn't have ruled out a team of you/zefiend already?

I was kinda subconsciously thinking about this when I said that.

Cape90/zefiend - 215 doesn't feel like a bus and I don't think cape tries for that on day 1 in a 9p setup.

I just didn't really agree there. Not to mention 1. zefiend wasn't a popular candidate, 2. catboi was literally expressing that bussing in a 9p setup here is not good, however, they argue that themselves/Dunn were not out of the question today.
IDK, I could have seen my vote on ze as like a distancing thing, but whatever

[Cape90]

I'm feeling pretty ready to lock in Dunn/zefiend. I don't mind being the next one to vote Dunn here, cape, you good with that? zefiend, you can even get in on the action and hammer if you want to.

Cape/catboi, if I'm right, one of us will be dead toMorrow. Anything else we need to talk about before that happens? I also don't at all mind waiting longer if you want to think more first, we have 3 more days to deadline, but it seems like Dunn has given up and, to me at least, zefiend is the clear partner. I don't have much else I feel like I need to look into or discuss.

I will vote Dunn actually here since I am less trusted, at least by zefeind, who just might be scum but idk, I can relate to getting busy

VOTE: Dunnstral

[Cape90]

Dunn is at E-1 if it wasn't obvious

[Cape90]

We did it! Good game everyone!