Open 857 | Frienemies | Postgame

[Aristeia]

Sorry for being a lurksack

I'm not opposed to either of these wagons but I don't feel a particular draw to either one. I guess I should just VOTE: hutmeil to tie it up.

since when is that something that you even remotely care about?

backing this, tying wagons seems rather odd for S_S

this is funny because in the world where hut/peng are t/t and SS is scum then SS is trying to vote early so he doesn't get stuck hammering a townie when inevitably everyone votes and he's still there twiddling his thumbs on a fence because scum SS is deathly allergic of hammering townies.

[Aristeia]

except that would make you look bad

[Aristeia]

VOTE: Something_Smart

[Aristeia]

if SS is scum here it would imply hut/penguin are both town I think

[Aristeia]

What you expect to happen and what does happen is often not the same thing.

[Aristeia]

This is, admittedly, a more recent mindset than I was thinking. But your argument is just terrible-- staying off the main wagons is never going to make me look bad unless one flips scum. Hell, I could probably vote a vanity as scum and be fine.

if the wagons go to 6-6 and you're the lone undecided vote, you would feel uncomfortable making the choice.

You would like to avoid that discomfort.

[Aristeia]

Now that we know fire can play scum well, I should probably give him another fair look.

now that invictus is over i can finally relax... this is my game to just chill in tbh

i was so deep in the scum mindset in that game that i literally forgot how to play town when i rolled it in this one which is part of why i started slow

ik that sounds dumb lmao but ill try to reset my brain and play better here now

this is adoorbs

[Aristeia]

plenty of time to come up with a SR and push there

atp things feel like they are pretty set.

I dunno if that's good or not.

[Aristeia]

I for one am glad VP Baltar is here to warn us about the dangers of Fire!scum and the PT of Doom.

[Aristeia]

it did look like a fun PT : )

[Aristeia]

atp I'm basically waiting for Penguin to show up and post something

[Aristeia]

I usually have a lot more confident trs atp in the game and I just don't.

Might have to do with I feel like nothing's actually happened in a long time and maybe some people are playing scummier than usual because reasons which is kind of annoying I guess but it happens in this kind of setup.

[Aristeia]

Ari, who are you thinking is town or maf here? There's a few I'm struggling to sort

who have you sorted so far?

[Aristeia]

is there any slot you really want to talk about?

[Aristeia]

Maybe Baltar is too oblivious to be mafia

[Aristeia]

well last chance for you to hammer SS

[Aristeia]

um what did you find townie about Penguin's posts?

[Aristeia]

nothing

but if we run up each scummy player to e-1 one by one we're going to out a mason eventually

[Aristeia]

I'll hammer penguin in like 6 hours unless he posts something amazingly townie.

[Aristeia]

I've always been concerned about outing masons what are you even talking about

[Aristeia]

i want penguin to catch up, i might vote there instead

probably not voting for hutmeil

he literally said he was waiting for penguin to catch up and he might vote there, implying he was going to vote for peng if the catchup wasn't good

[Aristeia]

Peng do you have like last reads or something to share that we can use later or do you just not care anymore?

[Aristeia]

I am glad we have an expert gif analyst on the team.

[Aristeia]

ari you seemed pretty sure about mala because she didn't react as harshly as she did in the coalition game, what are your mala thoughts now?

I'm not sure about mala but penguin is literally lolcatting here?

[Aristeia]

going to hammer in an hour if you have last words just post them

[Aristeia]

I like it when you sound so confident Dats <3

[Aristeia]

since when do you feel anxiety

[Aristeia]

are you ready for night dear?

[Aristeia]

i've been ready for night for like 4 days now >_>

do let fire post his stuff though, i'd like that reading material.

ok I guess i'll let fire do his readlist then hammer

or I guess fire could just hammer himself after he posts his readlist? either is fine I guess.

[Aristeia]

must be the world's greatest readlist

[Aristeia]

am I closer to you on your read triangle yet dear?

[Aristeia]

;_;

[Aristeia]

not even a tiny bit closer?

[Aristeia]

so I'm even further away now :shocked:

[Aristeia]

can we flip pengy now or do we have to wait for mala to come back first

[Aristeia]

are you going to run the sentiment analyzer on Datisi though

[Aristeia]

datisi - probably just town tbh. i don't think my reasons for being paranoid here are actually very good. happy to trust for now and revisit later with a sentiment analyzer

[Aristeia]

VOTE: PenguinPower

Spoiler: For Dats <3

[Aristeia]

I'm planning to just sheep Datisi and get princess carried this game

[Aristeia]

I would 100% nightkill VPBaltar out of jealousy if I were scum but I also would not do it because it's super against Win Con and he's not that hard to manipulate.

[Aristeia]

I think the last 2 scum are just Fire + Mala but I didn't actually think very hard I just drew a line in Dat's read triangle.

[Aristeia]

I'm planning to just sheep Datisi and get princess carried this game

this sounds nice

If he decides to throw me off the balcony because he doesn't trust me I will start crying.

[Aristeia]

the reason I kind of think maybe mala is partner'd to pengy is cuz I don't really see why Pengy does a half-assed CW at the last minute when he's almost certainly dying unless it's to try to distance and give his partner towncred.

It feels like some desperate last second distancing nonsense cuz realistically looking at what he was posting in the last day b4 he died um nobody remotely rational should town~read any of it?[Sorry Andante]

[Aristeia]

This is what I came up with:

[Aristeia]

do you not see I mentioned wagon comp? The VC helped me see it was basically all TRs of mine on penguin

what's your read on ari and STD?

both town

ok so why would you move from me to penguin when both are at 3 votes and you say you aren't convinced that penguin flips scum? saying the penguin wagon comp looks good doesn't make sense as a reason to switch if you also townread the entire wagon on me

i think maybe the 3-3 peng/fire wagons were all town on both sides[VC1.10] that would explain why 4-3-3 split went 6-4 into pengy autodeath, would imply fire/pengy team with one scum in the nonvoters?

[Aristeia]

i highly doubt gamma is mafia dats :<

[Aristeia]

hutmeil (4): GeorgeBailey, fireisredsir, PenguinPower, Andante
PenguinPower (3): VP Baltar, implosion, Datisi
fireisredsir (3): Gamma Emerald, Aristeia, Save The Dragons

we went from this game state to Pengy getting wagoned by the two [3]-wagons combining + hutmeil voting out of obligation.

I think it implies 2 scum on the hutmeil wagon if hutmeil is townie here and p damning VC for fire imo

[Aristeia]

also like Gamma switching to PP over Hutmeil tied up the wagons, he can much more easily push hutmeil if he is scum there and make it 5-3-2 ? I don't see why he needs to bus atp in the game.

[Aristeia]

zzz i'm tired

ari's iso wrt penguin gives me sorta bad vibes because it's soft defending him while not defending him but actually looking for other stuff to vote. that being said, i ackchually this this is +townie for aristeia because i think she'd know whether to commit to one side or another and how to come out of it looking Not Bad. and "hammering a scum you weren't pushing at all" is a lowkey popular scumtell so i don't think(?) she does it.

i'll think about this more later ig but this is what my soul feels right now

um if i was scum with penguin i'd just tell him what to post to get townread instead of asking him to post something townie and then hammering him for being a lolcatter.

[Aristeia]

because if penguinpower ended up flipping, it would be a disaster?

like, assume scum!gamma votes hutmeil there in order to try to push that through, who are the other two votes?

i should maybe go back to look at how likely penguin was at that point to flip, but my vague memory tells me that the hut wagon was lowkey a deadend because a few people kept defending him?

How many people on the hutmeil wagon do you think r scum? if its just penguin then you can fit 2 scum votes onto it and just convince a townie to hammer.

I think if hutmeil is town and the wagon comp is 3 townies + pengscum, there would be a 5th scum vote hopping on to add momentum, so it stalling out at 4-3-3 feels like something that happens if it's 2/2 ?

[Aristeia]

sure <3 ttyl dear

[Aristeia]

I think it implies 2 scum on the hutmeil wagon if hutmeil is townie here and p damning VC for fire imo

why is it damning for fire specifically as opposed to the other two voting alongside penguin?

and i skimmed a bit around that vc, it seems like baltar was pretty loudly advocating for penguin and against hutmeil wagons? which makes it at least more likely someone bussed imo

because if fire is more viable and town it would be better for Peng to vote there rather than push hutmeil.

[Aristeia]

like if the split on the wagons is

hutmeil 2t 2s
peng 3t
fire 3t

then it makes sense for fire/peng to both be s

[Aristeia]

if we have fire town hutmeil town peng scum then i dont really see why gamma scum would decide to consolidate towards peng when he could just stay put?

like when there is a stall and 3 wagons semi-tied you usually expect scum to be able to push for the wagon that they want cuz there r townies voting townies somewhere.

[Aristeia]

because if fire is more viable and town it would be better for Peng to vote there rather than push hutmeil.

was he more viable? both wagons were at three votes, 4 with penguin's?

Assuming Hutmeil is town;

if the distribution is something like

Hutmeil - 2 Town Voters, 2 Scum Voters
Penguin - 3 Town Voters
Fire - 3 Town Voters

The Scum Voters are better off on the Fire Wagon because they can get it to 5 with 3/2 split which is a smaller scum concentration. From a scum POV that wagon is

more

viable than Hutmeil.

If the Hutmeil wagon was 3 Town Voters, 1 Scum voter, I don't see why another scum doesn't vote on hutmeil and push it rather than just stalling and letting momentum swing.


Also you made the point that Gamma voting for Penguin is necessary for scum!Gamma but I don't see how hutmeil is not viable? If Gamma votes for hutmeil that would make the wagons 5 votes 3 votes 2 votes, even if Hutmeil switches it would be only 5-4 and it's not clear at all that Peng ends up being eliminated. SS is fairly stoic at this point, Mala is afk?, STD said in 1252 that he prefers Peng to Hutmeil but it's not very solid, I've said some nice things about Peng but it's not clear which way I'd vote yet.

It feels kind of weird to bus in this spot for Gamma!scum. I don't think it's clear at all that hut can't be elimmed at this point in time.

I also I really liked his take about voting with the people he townreads more because I kind of had the same feeling too just looking at wagon comp at the time when deciding because neither of them had really done much that was AI up to that point and it makes sense to vote with the people you townread more.

[Aristeia]

I feel like if hutmeil/pengy were scum/scum it would've made much more sense for them to consolidate on Fire or decide to sheep there rather than consolidate on each other and make two big s/s wagons which is kind of ???

[Aristeia]

implosion's reasoning for his pengy progression makes sense to me - I also don't see why scum!implosion doesn't just sheep VPBaltar on the Andante push rather than waiting to sheep him on the Pengy push instead - that seems silly and self-defeating.

[Aristeia]

Yeah, because he was copying his town game... as I literally pointed out.. said he was town or scum copying his town meta

I think this is factually untrue.

Town penguin under pressure is kind of angry sounding - this penguin came back to being top wagon and lol-catted and claimed it would be sad he wouldn't get to analyze these wagons or w/e. There was no blaming the town for being "wrong".

[Aristeia]

SS do you have thoughts about who is mafia here?

[Aristeia]

when do you think gamma decided to bus penguin and why?

[Aristeia]

i dont think it makes sense for scum him to push town you dear

[Aristeia]

calling you scum then - I don't really think scum!him does that because I don't see what's in it for him.

[Aristeia]

the way I think about yeeting on-wagon is this:

there are three types of wagons in this game:

scum-driven(heavy scum presence)
town-driven(heavy town presence)
mason-driven(heavy mason presence)

I feel that the VPB shot points to scum believing that the wagon was mason-driven because scum

have

to shoot masons to win this game, there is no other way they can really win if they do not shoot the masons. it also implies imo that scum will continue to shoot on the wagon to hunt where they believe the masons are - which means they will be narrowing things down for us in the future. If we wagon people on the wagon, we're kind of doing their work for them ~whereas if we hunt off wagon, we can let scum do our work for us and shoot people on the wagon.

from a scum POV a wagon of 7 that is heavily mason could have [2-3 masons] on it which leaves a leftover POE of [4-5 unknowns] whenever they miss a shot in the POE they are making the leftover POE on wagon smaller - [4-5] -> [3-4] which is not good for them if they are bussing or heavily bussing - typically I don't think scum teams are comfortable squeezing their own POE like that - it feels somewhat uncomfortable.

[Aristeia]

i feel like i explained this already? but like. if we're going off that vc right before gamma voted, then there are a few people that haven't yet given a loud preference for penguin or hutmeil? if gamma (and the third scum) commits to voting hutmeil, and the undecided peeps swing it onto penguin, then the last two scum are in a very shit position, right?

I don't think so because the scenario you are talking about,

if Gamma votes Hutmeil, putting the wagons at 5-3 Hut/Peng[5-4 if you count Hutmeil as voting Peng] then there's STD, Ari, Mala, SS undecided.

There's no reason Gamma would expect (3/4) of us to vote for Peng versus say 2 of us voting for Hutmeil instead.

I think there's a pretty good chance that if he did vote for hut and made it 5-4 then hut would get exec'd over penguin and if hut flips town I'm not sure we go back and yeet penguin the next day automatically so the reward is fine in comparison to the risk.

Secondly I disagree with your assessment of downside risk if he were to fail in yeeting hutmeil on d1;

You say he'd be in a shitty position if Peng goes down but like Andante/GeorgeBailey/SS literally did vote on the Hutmeil CW to Pengy and none of them seem to be in a "shitty position" today - SS/Andante seem fairly widely townread and it's not like we're grabbing George and preparing to yeet him so I don't see how his position would be "shitty" per se.

[Aristeia]

it once again feels like everyone around me is playing 5d chess while i'm playing tic tac toe

i'm giving up on this for the night, see y'all tomorrow

I want to play tic tac toe with you dats <3

[Aristeia]

I feel that the VPB shot points to scum believing that the wagon was mason-driven because scum have to shoot masons to win this game, there is no other way they can really win if they do not shoot the masons. it also implies imo that scum will continue to shoot on the wagon to hunt where they believe the masons are - which means they will be narrowing things down for us in the future. If we wagon people on the wagon, we're kind of doing their work for them ~whereas if we hunt off wagon, we can let scum do our work for us and shoot people on the wagon.

from a scum POV a wagon of 7 that is heavily mason could have [2-3 masons] on it which leaves a leftover POE of [4-5 unknowns] whenever they miss a shot in the POE they are making the leftover POE on wagon smaller - [4-5] -> [3-4] which is not good for them if they are bussing or heavily bussing - typically I don't think scum teams are comfortable squeezing their own POE like that - it feels somewhat uncomfortable.

this was also more or less the realization i had and my thought process for why i wanted to hunt off wagon, which i didn't really want to get into the discussion of too heavily, but since it's been said now, yea i agree with this

I mean I don't see why the scum team wouldn't think this so I think it's fine to say out loud.

[Aristeia]

Vote Count 1.06

Malakittens (4):

Aristeia, Datisi, implosion, Andante

Vulture (2):

PenguinPower, hutmeil

Gamma Emerald (2):

fireisredsir, Malakittens

Andante (2):

Gamma Emerald, VP Baltar

Datisi (1):

GeorgeBailey

Not Voting (2):

Something_Smart, Vulture

With 13 alive, it's 7 to eliminate.

Deadline for Day 1 is July 8 at 5:00 PM EST.

Deadline Timer:

(expired on 2022-07-08 17:00:00)

Notes:

PenguinPower is V/LA on weekends.

vc is here

vp switches to ari in 1038

gamma switches to me in 1040

that puts it at 4 on mala, 2 on vulture, 2 on gamma, and 1 each on datisi, ari, and me. there's a lot of lingering suspicion on hut around but no active wagon. gamma and vulture don't really have widespread support

georgebailey shows up and votes hut in 1067. i join the new hut wagon partly cause im starting to doubt my gamma read. ari votes me in 1077

penguin votes hut in 1079. penguin is under no real pressure atp, but if mala is scum then he would want to try to push an alternate wagon. i think he did make a mistake here, and may have lived if he voted me (he had the trajectory for it too, he was voting me earlier). but probably he judged that the hut wagon was more likely to go far since a few people had suspicion there that they hadnt acted on and im more talkative generally and might be hard to push.

i think these two votes were intended to try to push the hut wagon not above penguin, but above mala, because again, there was no penguin wagon yet. the penguin wagon came in response

there's also a good case in here for me+mala+peng which would be why he voted me instead of hut, which, okay whatever, ik that's wrong but i don't blame ari for seeing it. i think that george just kinda looked for a direction to go for a counter, found one, and then penguin hopped on as well after i did

a lot of the suspicion on penguin is now because he voted hut over me. switching to me suddenly will now draw a ton of scrutiny. so by the time it hits 1407 it's just too late, i think that's part of why scum didn't try to shift over to me

This is a sensible interpretation of how things went down.

[Aristeia]

ari have you considered the idea that if im scum with mala then your 1118 doesn't apply and therefore im not scum :>

oh I forgot about that point because I was focusing on who made sense to be partner'd with Penguin and doing VCA.

I don't think it's impossible for scum!you to hardshield scum!mala tho I guess it might be unlikely?

[Aristeia]

i want penguin to catch up, i might vote there instead

probably not voting for hutmeil

this is the first time STD says he is considering voting Peng


this is right after SS ties the wagons at 5-5 and unvotes a bit later after I push him about not hammering.

so essentially he is making it 6-5 and it's kind of an important vote imo cuz it is kind of up in the air which one of them will be flipped.

it isn't like Coalition because realistically you were not going to flip bloodhail when he bussed you

[Aristeia]

Spoiler: For Dats<3

[Aristeia]

the combination of him making the choice he did at 5-5 and pushing at Penguin and then later asking me if we should go on Mala after I've already signaled I want pengy feels very much like a town mindset.

Like it's one thing to sack a partner for towncred by putting him at 6-5 or 6-4 where it's very awk for peng to re-enter but to then ask about whether we should go somewhere else after you've already buried your partner feels like you're throwing away some of the towncred you've gotten for ?? The flexibility feels non-informed to me.

[Aristeia]

do you still think George is town Dats?

[Aristeia]

I am pretty bad at catching people who bus tbh >___>

I don't really see anything that is scummy about gamma? he's done some townie things and I still feel p good about him; do you have an example of a game where he busses D1 ? I've always had a mental model of him preferring to vote the townie if presented with a choice of 1 scum 1 town and his vote matters.

Like I'm fine voting out George if he continues to ghost the game ?

[Aristeia]

I am pretty bad at catching people who bus tbh >___>

why? Penguin wasn't even a hard scum member to bus... he was doing nothing, town was calling him on it, it's not really hard to go "yeah maf would be fine bussing in that situation"
this isn't even about "having to catch someone who bussed" maf really couldn't just defend Penguin unless Penguin was going to really change how he played, which isn't very likely for anyone..

I mean you literally hard defended penguin

for posting a funny gif

so why can't a mafia player also hard defend penguin and decide to vote someone else?

[Aristeia]

like it's one thing to defend your teammate if

nobody is defending your teammate

and there is no viable counterwagon, then I think it makes sense to bus.

but if there are

townies defending your teammate for really dubious reasons

that gives you cover to also throw up some crappy defense to blend in and push for a townie elimination esp if there is a viable wagon on a townie as well?

[Aristeia]

like if Andante/George are both town and both defending penguin for p bad reasons, I don't see why scum would decide oh I'm going to bus rather than help swing the wagon towards someone else and maybe get a misyeet off?

scum need misyeets to win and the best way to get misyeets is to deny information to the town by running up people who are not scum.

[Aristeia]

the issue is i don't see anything townie? what do you consider townie from him

I thought the way he flipped out at Andante making a joke about Ocho was kind of townie - he seemed pretty upset by that and I associate him being angry about silly things to be a townie trait.

[Aristeia]

i think "person getting angry at a joke they missed" is more likely to be coming from scum than town, but i don't actually know gamma well enough to say specifically

I dunno I just think Town!gamma is more likely to get upset than Scum!gamma

[Aristeia]

scum don't get angry when stuff isn't going their way?

I don't understand what Gamma getting upset at a joke has to do with this

[Aristeia]

Scum get upset at certain things.

I usually look at the motivation for getting upset and whether it makes more sense for one alignment or another alignment.

[Aristeia]

andante, ari has been talking about scum probably not bussing for like 3 years now

hmmm.. wait that makes me scum then? cause I didn't end with my vote on penguin.. so yeah, ari is calling me maf?

I think it'd be easier if you read from the beginning of the conversation to get the context of what I'm talking about with Dats is.

[Aristeia]

704 & 705 are jokes I believe.

[Aristeia]

like the sequence 703->704->705->706 is what I mean for my gamma read of "being serious and overreacting to a joke"


one thing I remember from the first game I played with Dats; he caught Iconeum off this tell very early - Dats made a very funny joke shitpost push against Ico and Ico overreacted to it and treated it as a

serious

post - in Ico's mind the push from Dats was serious because Ico was scum and he was worried he had been caught and the wallpost was a serious push instead of a joke the slip is a mindset slip - Ico let his mindset dictate his reaction to Dats, his mindset was that of a scum trying to hide, so the joke wallpost looked like a serious attack to be dealt with seriously.

This doesn't apply here

because

think of the mindset Gamma has to be in to treat Andante's jokey shitpost answer to his case as a "scum misrep" and overreact to it. His mindset is not that of a scum making up some fake case on a townie and pushing her - it's one of a townie who thinks his case against andante is good and she is misrepping it because she is scum - it would explain the overreaction to the joke response Andante puts out to him - he's furious that she's making a mockery of his serious case vs her and misrepping him. the mindset just feels like one of a townie who has had it.

[Aristeia]

just sigh at yesterday >_>

[Aristeia]

it's really fustrating when townies soft mason and get themselves yeeted and its like revealing where masons are and gives the mafia an easy misyeet its just so ugh

so fustrating

[Aristeia]

im probably fine with yeeting Enchant that hammer was atrocious

[Aristeia]

Isn't it just an Enchant thing?

I've never seen him replace into a game and quickhammer a slot without even posting before.

I guess if you have an example of him playing so anti-town I'll look at it

[Aristeia]

who would you like to yeet SS?

[Aristeia]

Why don't punch Datisi, who simple looking while i hammering then?

Or SS for silently putting on E-1?

Or everyone else for voting carelessly?

I gonna punish that.

?

you're the person who hammered.

why are you blaming SS for E-1ing the vote?

[Aristeia]

did you hammer intentionally yes or no?

[Aristeia]

And? If two people hold your hands, while third prepares to impale you with spear, will you be pissed off only on person with spear, or all three?

There is a difference between.

Voting to pressure someone to get them to talk.

Voting someone because you think they are mafia.

Voting someone because you think they are a good flip for information.


You replaced into the game and immediately hammered - so you weren't voting Mala to get her to talk[since you killed her]

You weren't voting her because you think she's mafia, because you literally just replaced into the game so I dunno why you would think she's mafia atp or not want to talk.

I don't think you'd think she's a good "flip for information" because I don't see what information you would have to begin with after just replacing into the game.

So my two options are:

You're mafia who doesn't give a shit

or you're town who is playing scumside.

and I'm honestly fine killing you either way because you clearly don't give a fuck about playing in a way that is conducive to helping us win.

[Aristeia]

I've honestly never seen someone replace into a game and immediately hammer without even talking to anyone else.

It's really amazing to me that you could somehow think that it's ok to play that way.

[Aristeia]

and honestly if you're town I guess scum get a free mislim but letting you get to elo or whatever as town is just a liability that I don't see why I should have to take since you clearly do not give a shit about playing to win.

[Aristeia]

did you hammer intentionally yes or no?

What stupid question? I hammered twice.

so it was intentional for you

you walked in, decided to hammer Mala

and then you hammered her.

so there's no blame for other people who put her at e-1.

it's not like you accidentally did it.

[Aristeia]

And? If two people hold your hands, while third prepares to impale you with spear, will you be pissed off only on person with spear, or all three?

There is a difference between.

Voting to pressure someone to get them to talk.

Voting someone because you think they are mafia.

Voting someone because you think they are a good flip for information.


You replaced into the game and immediately hammered - so you weren't voting Mala to get her to talk[since you killed her]

You weren't voting her because you think she's mafia, because you literally just replaced into the game so I dunno why you would think she's mafia atp or not want to talk.

I don't think you'd think she's a good "flip for information" because I don't see what information you would have to begin with after just replacing into the game.

So my two options are:

You're mafia who doesn't give a shit

or you're town who is playing scumside.

and I'm honestly fine killing you either way because you clearly don't give a fuck about playing in a way that is conducive to helping us win.

Who you will kill next?

hopefully I get killed at night so I don't have to keep playing this game

[Aristeia]

I'm not sure you bothered to think and it's not clear to me at all you care about playing to town win con in this game or any other game I have ever played with you

[Aristeia]

yes we would not be having this conversation if Mala flipped mafia.

we would also not be having this discussion if you rep'd in and gave your thoughts on the game or talked things out or waited for mala to show up to post.

you literally decided to replace into this game and immediately hammer mala before talking to anyone about anything.

Do you not understand why this might be upsetting to people who are actually trying to play to win?

[Aristeia]

why do you even bother to play the game if you don't have any idea whether your actions are right or wrong in the first place?

[Aristeia]

because you literally hammered as soon as you replaced in

[Aristeia]

he's saying you should've unvoted when catboi announced the replacement b4 he got a chance to quickhammer mala for the second time back when catboi originally announced the replacement as enchant replacing mala

its the most bullshit fucking thing he's said so far

[Aristeia]

When my initial hammer failed.

you are a person with responsibility and agency in the game.

it is not the responsibility of every other player in the game to keep wagons from being on E-1 just to stop you from compulsively quickhammering everything in sight,

[Aristeia]

he's saying you should've unvoted when catboi announced the replacement b4 he got a chance to quickhammer mala for the second time back when catboi originally announced the replacement as enchant replacing mala

its the most bullshit fucking thing he's said so far

Datisi wanted Mala to die, which is perfectly acceptable.

I have already explained the other uses of voting in a game to you stop pretending you have no idea that votes can do things other than kill people.

[Aristeia]

VOTE: Enchant

[Aristeia]

I don't think you're playing the game in good faith and if you're town then good riddance

[Aristeia]

I honestly don't think you even play the game in good faith when you're town actually

[Aristeia]

enchant could be a revealed IC and I would not believe a single read he had

[Aristeia]

You want to say killing Mala is my sole decision alone?

I have never said this.

[Aristeia]

Enchant.

I am town.

I think you are likely town


I AM STILL VOTING TO KILL YOU BECAUSE I ABSOLUTELY WANT YOU OUT OF THE GAME THAT IS HOW MUCH I HATE THE WAY YOU PLAY

[Aristeia]

see that's me being toxic and spiteful because I believe you care 0% about the outcome of this game, about finding mafia, and about winning.


I honestly believe if you survive to elo you will be a liability - either as a mislim for the mafia or as someone who will vote incorrectly.

I have absolutely no faith that you will flip scum - I actually think it's quite likely you do not flip scum

what I do have certainty in is that you will not

try

to play to win condition because you simply do not care about winning.

[Aristeia]

like if I had to describe my thought process it's:

(1) I would really hate to lose to Enchant!scum who lolhammers on replace in because it's gross.

(2) I would really hate to lose at elo because Enchant!town didn't try at all.

(3) I guess I'd be ok with losing if Enchant decided to replace into a town!slot and gave the scum team 2 free mislims because he's a massive troll and there's nothing I can do about that.

[Aristeia]

D'aww you think i am town, WELL MAYBE YOU VOTE REAL MAFIA THEN? OR ATLEAST SAY WHO YOU THINK IS IT?

Oh right, you are so stuck, you hoping to die at night. Not gonna blame you for that, mafia is hard.

i dunno we were doing fine before you replaced in

[Aristeia]

I think you are likely town

okay, can we take a step back? i don't think this is helpful.

ari, why do you think enchant is town? who do you *do* think is scum now that mala is green?

the way he's pushing back feels a bit town but I'm so sick of him I just want to throw him out of a window

[Aristeia]

I tell you something.

But looking at situation there was two futures.

First: Mala die anyway. She was Town. Still Mistake.
Second: GeorgeBailey die instead. Obviously bad.

Maybe something would change, but i didn't really believe. You would just push me for "I hate Enchant" like you do in all games, and i can do jackshit with this.

um in Lake Melancholy I didn't push you at all.

I just said I hated how you played and I still do.

[Aristeia]

I don't even remember what Lake Melancholy is.

it was the game I was pushing Prism for being scum and you decided to spend the entire game trolling me and saying I was scum for ??? reasons.

[Aristeia]

i agree enchant's wim/arguing here feels townie for him, but he's fooled me before with it and his overall answers are horrible, even by his standards

ari, who's scum?

probably fire + someone

[Aristeia]

if hutmeil town enchant town then fire + someone off wagon?

if hutmeil scum then I guess it could be p much anyone?

[Aristeia]

it really annoys me that you quickhammered mala because I am fairly confident I can figure out what mala's alignment is if she is pressured and has a chance to post.

you quickhammering her with like a week on the deadline when she was literally too busy with rl to actually play the game basically burned a mislim for no reason at all.

IN A GAME WHERE YOU JUST REPLACED INTO

You just make me so angry that I can barely see straight.

I really do not like losing I am very competitive this is so infuriating for me that you just don't give a fuck

[Aristeia]

UNVOTE:

I understand my raw emotional hatred might be making my judgement quite flawed so I'm going to unvote but I still want to murder you

[Aristeia]

I honestly do not think you care at all about winning

I don't think you have a basic level of respect for your fellow players in the game who are trying to win.

it makes me just so angry at you and I probably shouldn't be but I find it hard to stop caring sometimes and that might be a character flaw.

[Aristeia]

I don't think you pay

I don't think you even care

[Aristeia]

Malakittens (6):

Andante, Gamma Emerald, Datisi, fireisredsir, Something_Smart, Enchant

With 11 alive, it took 6 to eliminate.

[/size][/area][/color]

I think there's a good chance all the masons and all the mafia are on this wagon because:

mala softed mason and.

(1) the mafia know mala isn't mafia
(2) the masons know mala isn't a mason

it would explain how fast the wagon moved because 2 informed groups both heavily incentivized to push her.

the reason why mafia + masons are both on the wagon and it's not vts+masons is because of the gamma nightkill

I think mafia knowing who they are on the wagon narrowed the mason pool for them to shoot in and they decided to shoot gamma.

i think fire being the one to call out mala for not having any possible partners and

not getting shot

is heavily scum indicative for him because if I was mafia and fire was town, he would be my first guess for being a mason as he called out mala for not being a mason. yet gamma was the one who was shot.

[Aristeia]

i'm not sure i get the idea ari is putting out (the mafia voting mala thing) because my first instinct as mafia would be to not even get close to voting a mason soft for the chance they actually are a mason and i prematurely get shit for pushing a green flip, and i feel like it would be the same for at least some number of scum!players here?

I think playing passively burned the scum team yesterday and they take whatever lifeline happens to float their way such as a townie deciding to soft mason when they're not mason with both hands.

[Aristeia]

also if I'm right about the wagon comp then the 5 remaining alive people on the wagon is probly 2 masons + 2 mafia + 1 VT and we can force a win from today.

I also have mild reasons to townread everyone off wagon so it's w/e.

[Aristeia]

(1) it seemed to me like a lot of players were aligning towards yeeting mala, and she was obviously town, how did they get burned there by playing passively?

mala wasn't townread because she was afk and not playing.

she can always come back and townspew - she is a fairly polarized player by play and I think there's more than one person with experience playing with her that can read her fairly reliably.

the scum do not know whether or when mala will come back and townspew - they have to seize eliminations as they come up

[Aristeia]

(2) scum had no way of knowing that mala was a fake-softing vt at the time, no?

fire figured it out in the thread so I'm not sure why you think a scum could not figure it out?

[Aristeia]

i feel like saying "mala wasn't townread because she was afk" is objectively false because she did have a bunch of scummy posts when she *was* posting (you thought so too at the time) but w/e

yes I know she had a bunch of scummy posts.

but she is very polarized as a player and if she has time she is capable of towntelling very hard.

[Aristeia]

congrats fen!

[Aristeia]

~_~

if I got pocketed by Dats again I'm going to cry

[Aristeia]

? are you talking about voting hutmeil after you/george voted hutmeil?

[Aristeia]

I'm not sure it's fruitful to look into where penguin may or may not have voted but if you want to make a theory about why hut is scum based on how penguin voted I would be interested to read it

[Aristeia]

penguin wanting 3-mala 3-hut as dueling t/t wagons is also a possible explanation

I don't know if peng likes to bus

[Aristeia]

I don't know what your alignment is much less what's going on in Peng's head.

[Aristeia]

I'll catch up on this game tonight. Have a bunch of thoughts in my head that don't make sense to me rn.

[Aristeia]

oh god now that the wagon I've always wanted is within reach I am getting cold feet

I am awful at this game ;_;

[Aristeia]

so um does anyone want to talk me into or out of a fire vote rn?

[Aristeia]

so um does anyone want to talk me into or out of a fire vote rn?

Yes

ok why do you want to elim fire?

[Aristeia]

the more I think about it. the more I kind of want to elim Andante today.

I dunno if I am overthinking on fire or if I am just confused.

I have a lot of thoughts but they're not very well organized currently and I am going to try to put them together again later.

[Aristeia]

I really should reread fire again ack

[Aristeia]

datisi what is your read of fire

[Aristeia]

ariiiii

don't ignore my 2114 please :<

ss is probably town

[Aristeia]

sigh im so sad because now i think you rolled scum with andante

[Aristeia]

maybe its because i've gotten only 2 hours of sleep

[Aristeia]

i think fire is town now because it makes very little sense for scum fire to not shoot me either n1 or n2,

also there's like no1 who makes sense to be paired with a scum!fire atp

[Aristeia]

andante is very obviously scum atp and the way you are defending her feels very partnered

[Aristeia]

because if she was town there'd be a lot more votes on her

[Aristeia]

she's also very scum just by play

[Aristeia]

she's completely fallen off the map in terms of thread presence.

she pops in to make multi-posts, barely interacts with anyone

she's not being fluid, she's not trying to sort or figure the game out.

she got townread for audacity and she's decided to stick to it

I don't think she's trying to figure out who's bad for the last few days

[Aristeia]

and like vp and gamma suspected her and they both got shot at night

[Aristeia]

like this is the most slam dunk scum case of all time.

she's also in the group of 5 who voted for Mala so that's prime scum/mason territory

and she's spewed not mason by the way gamma interacted with her.

so she's literally the world's easiest mislim here if she's town

and not a single person is pushing her except SS

and SS is pretty obviously town here

[Aristeia]

and andante scum basically hardspews fire as town because andante scum doesn't really bus she's a very straightfoward scum player.

so if you look at partners um

bailey doesnt make sense cuz 3/4 is overloaded. SS is pushing her,

implosion wouldnt defend a partner with refuge in audacity immediately

std is p townie on entrance and vibes

hutmeil was pushed by andante

so its like just you as a viable partner?

am i missing any1?

[Aristeia]

so yea im just sad cuz i want you to be town and i dont think you are anymore

[Aristeia]

i dunno i feel like when i just think games out by myself i start spiraling into silly places maybe im just wrong about everything but its nothing you can really convince me of I guess i'm just hoping someone like implosion or whoever comes along and tells me i'm being stupid about everything

[Aristeia]

andante, who else is scum besides fire and who are your townreads? (this can wait those 24 hours but i do want you to get back to me on this)

I'm not going to out where my reads stand, but fire maf makes the most sense with where my reads are

or... you could instead do out your reads :3

like i dont see how you get this convo with her and she's not saying anything useful to you that indicates a town thought process and you just arrived at andante!town fire!scum anyway?

like it feels like you wanted to fake an interaction to land there but she didnt cooperate and you just skipped the middle part and positioned at the landing spot anyway.

[Aristeia]

i have a bunch of questions to ask that because it feels like you went through steps 2, 3, 5 while skipping over every other number from 1 to 10

but i'm also not sure how much point there is to argue with you about it because i think you're town

but i'm *also* not convinced andante is scum so maybe

yea I know there's pretty much no point for you to argue with me because scum!you can be very persuasive and charming <3 and I can't see you role pm anyway.

I'm just writing out my thoughts and seeing if they make sense to everyone else.

I really should go back to sleep.

[Aristeia]

I guess it just felt weird to me that you were asking me about SS when the top vote getter was fire at 3 and neither me nor you were voting for fire.

it just seems sorting SS is not very useful or like relevant to what the actual thing that's going on is?

and scum by POE feels like you didn't really have a firm read on fire but you didn't want to talk it out because you were hoping that wagon would get driven through by me eventually and you kept me alive to today because you want me to force fire!yeet through which I've been telegraphing for the past 2 days[and also it makes me confused why scum would let me live to today to push fire]

[Aristeia]

like i dont see how you get this convo with her and she's not saying anything useful to you that indicates a town thought process and you just arrived at andante!town fire!scum anyway?

no offense to andante, but i feel like at this point, using "is andante saying anything useful" is not a good metric to read her on because i probably would've killed her 10 billion times in all games by now if i did that

ok so why attempt the conversation in the first place if its not relevant at all to your read of her?

like it just feels like it's for show if you don't actually think she makes sense or its a useful way to sort her.

[Aristeia]

like
- i'm not sure how andante's posts in the past few days are necessarily different than posts during d1
- how does the fact she said she's having irl difficulties play into that
- nka is flawed because scum has to shoot masons (i think this is something you said earlier this game too?)
- why is s_s so obviously town here
- i'm not sure why you think andante would be The Mislim (if town) that scum would be going for here, as opposed to someone else

like- i'm not sure how andante's posts in the past few days are necessarily different than posts during d1- how does the fact she said she's having irl difficulties play into that- nka is flawed because scum has to shoot masons (i think this is something you said earlier this game too?)- why is s_s so obviously town here- i'm not sure why you think andante would be The Mislim (if town) that scum would be going for here, as opposed to someone else

1. It's that when she's here she can't wait to exit the thread. I think town!andante has issues logging off whereas scum!andante basically can't wait to say "bye" to the thread.

I'm not going to comment about irl availability but I have doubts she is literally unable to come post, I strongly feel that she simply does not want to come post.

2. nka is flawed sometimes but it wasn't very clear that gamma was a mason the night she got shot and vpb was obviously not a mason, the only thing those two had in common was a desire to push andante. also like I don't see why fire!scum keeps me alive through 2 nights when I've been telegraphing a push on him forever, it seems very bad for his survival and he is aware I am very stubborn and likely able to force his elim through. I don't think he bets on me getting cold feet at the 11th hour esp with how coalition went. As scum you usually just shoot the loudest voice trying to kill you nka be damned and try to get away with it. for example see Andante.

3. SS is town because scum!him doesn't have the guts to vote to tie the wagons(S/T) with a joke excuse, he is kind of a wuss. His thought process today also makes the most sense in terms of pushing on Andante who is spewed not mason from Gamma. Also if he is scum with Fire, it doesn't make a lot of sense for him to both not bus and not help fire get anyone out. If he's scum with someone other than fire who would it be? i have issues finding someone who makes sense.

4. Andante would be the mislim because:

a. if she's town then scum have been framing her with nightkills for 2 nights straight
b. she's in the pool of 5 where its likely heavy scum/mason from the wagon on mala and scum know she's

not a mason

since she had the interaction with gamma on d1, scum can't push a mason in the pool because masons can't be pushed in dayplay - they would target the VT and she would obviously be a VT.
c. she's not really here to defend herself
d. she looks very scummy by play.

Yet there's no scum pushing her - despite the setup being nearly perfect for pushing her. which imo just makes her scum here.

[Aristeia]

and like, if i wanted you to yeet fire for me, i am ignoring that wagon and talking about s_s with you because...?

well you would expect andante to get yeeted tommorrow so you'd have to go deep and if you can keep your hands clean and looking fairly decent then it would be better for you.

having both of you get hands dirty on pushing fire would not be good for endgaming.

[Aristeia]

i said that the fact she didn't say something useful doesn't mean i should scumread her for it

BUT, if she DID say something useful (i.e. gave reads and reasoning for it), i can potentially townread or scumread her based on whatever happens in those reads

and i can't know in advance before she actually does the reads

ok that makes sense but I still kind of feel like this is a faked interaction :<


I don't think it's very useful for you to try to convince me that you/andante are town because it's unlikely to happen since you'd do that regardless of your alignment and if you're town it's pretty much up to me to figure it out myself or someone other than you/andante makes a really strong case to me about why you/her are definitely town.

I think if you want to elim fire today you should make a strong case for why fire is scum - that feels like it would be more productive.

[Aristeia]

and like, if i wanted you to yeet fire for me, i am ignoring that wagon and talking about s_s with you because...?

well you would expect andante to get yeeted tommorrow so you'd have to go deep and if you can keep your hands clean and looking fairly decent then it would be better for you.

having both of you get hands dirty on pushing fire would not be good for endgaming.

actually

this is saying scum!me would both be afraid of getting my hands dirty by pushing fire along with andante

but i'm also expecting andante to flip tomorrow and with that in mind i do this awkward half-defense of andante that's gonna make me look just stellar after she flips?

well you basically just want anyone other than her to flip today so you need a progression that defends her and also looks not faked. You can't like just not mention her at all cuz it would look weird and you can't really shade/push her because then she might die so this kind of defense is the one that makes the most sense for you to do if you were scum with her.

I don't think you really need to worry about me linking you to her if she's town because if I force her to flip today and she flips town then like obviously all of this is invalid so there's really no point for you to argue this?

[Aristeia]

I'm going to try to fall asleep again

it was nice talking to you Dats <3

I hope you feel better soon.

Spoiler: For Dats<3

The moon was so pretty last night, I stayed up late just watching it and the clouds dancing across the night sky.(every time I see it I think of you)

[Aristeia]

I don't think you really need to worry about me linking you to her if she's town because if I force her to flip today and she flips town then like obviously all of this is invalid so there's really no point for you to argue this?

there's a possibility you're scum arguing this

that post isn't as scummy as i first thought, but still

if she is town, maybe we don't have to flip her

if she is scum, i wanna get to the correct conclusion myself too

i don't think "you don't need to argue this" is ever correct there

well I'm not talking about "arguing about whether Andante is scum"

I'm talking about you saying that scum!you wouldn't defend scum!her this way.

Like if she is town, then it's not really important because my whole theory falls apart if she flips town.

If you want to make a case for why she's town, feel free to do that.

Also you should know I'm not scum because like scum!me just takes the easy fire elim right in front of me that I've been telegraphing for the last two days, I don't really do this whole cold feet thing where I try to reroute to town!andante who thinks i'm town - like that literally makes little to no sense for me to do ?

[Aristeia]

i'm gonna question a post from you (ari) that i don't understand how you came to it, even if i think you're town overall

I just mean it's not really productive to talk about a team solve that I have of you+andante and it'd be more productive to figure out what Andante's alignment is.

[Aristeia]

i feel like the last few games, my read on you has not been great, so "i didn't know what he'd answer" feels weird but meh

I don't think Ari's read on me is that great either is the thing

do you want me to explain the part of my read on you that I am not mentioning?

[Aristeia]

I was asking you though

[Aristeia]

why is she voting for ss if she thinks you aren't partnered with him

[Aristeia]

why do you think enchant is mafia?

[Aristeia]

enjoy your special day Fen <3

[Aristeia]

I guess we're doing this huh

[Aristeia]

you can always ask me dumb questions dear <3

[Aristeia]

I'm not even sure she's scum dats

[Aristeia]

I was actually thinking more along the lines of

he knows I think he's the only possible partner she could have

so is he voting her to make me think she's town because bussing is almost certainly losing for him in this spot?

and then I go into another paranoia spiral

[Aristeia]

I'm not even sure she's scum dats

your earlier posts did not give off this impression

but yeah, 2284 is more along the lines i was thinking

If I was sure I would've voted for her >_>

I dunno I feel lots of anxiety and unsureness and I think I'm just driving in circles at this point.

[Aristeia]

hmm part of me kinda thinks that if andante really did think masons were datisi/SS and thought datisi was mason for a while now then idk if she kills vp/gamma

the mafia also have to think about who is mason - I'm not sure whether she actually thought Dats/SS are the masons but I don't think it's relevant to her alignment.

[Aristeia]

I think the specific way andante is ateing feels more like scum ate than town ate but I'm not very certain. ~.~

[Aristeia]

are you feeling better Dats?

[Aristeia]

andante not making sense is just normal andante though

[Aristeia]

I am glad you are feeling better dear <3

[Aristeia]

i reread andante's iso in this game and holiday dance party and i'm more conflicted than before

I want to talk to SS when he has time

[Aristeia]

That number is dependent on a lot of factors that there's no reason to share. I have a high degree of confidence that you are the best person to kill today.

How confident are you that she flips scum here?

like I am willing to sheep you but if your confidence is not that confident I will spend a lot of time rereading and rethinking everything about this game again.

I don't feel very satsified with where my solution is atp.

[Aristeia]

ugh

I'll work on rereading everything then

[Aristeia]

but i am not as certain on that as i'd want to be, especially if aristeia now doesn't think so

I'm ngl but a large part of my confidence was because SS said he was confident but now he's not confident.

I find her AtE to lean more scummy than townie because most of it is about "i'm town i'm town i'm town" and not very much of it is useful to us if we actually flip her and she actually flips town because I don't understand her reads.

like her one legacy read that she wants us all to trust is hutmeil!scum? um she wasn't even voting for hutmeil before that post so like wtf is she talking about?

[Aristeia]

I am pretty tempted to vote her but I think I want to finish doing due diligence on some of her town games first.

[Aristeia]

he never said he was confident on andante being scum, actually he said like twice that he has no actual read on her via play, so i'm not sure where it's coming from

yea he said he was confident she was the best flip for today and my brain just interpreted into thinking he's confident she will flip scum >_>

[Aristeia]

can you share what makes s_s town? @ari

he's like obviously a mason

[Aristeia]

this isn't useful andante

[Aristeia]

townreading Datisi for consistently pushing masons is certainly

a take

[Aristeia]

STD/Implo, why Fire over andante?

like if fire is mafia wouldn't it be trivial for him to e-1 andante and wait for enchant to hammer?

[Aristeia]

I think the more I read the more indecisive I become and it's kind of infuriating -.-

[Aristeia]

I mean... he would get quite a bit of flak for doing that out of nowhere in this game state, i think? Maybe they're both scum, idk. I just don't really buy Andante's whole game as coming from scum right now, though I definitely can be wrong on her.

is he supposed to prefer to be eliminated himself tho?

I don't think he's trying very hard to get enchant eliminated

I honestly don't know what either of them are doing atp it feels like they are kind of indifferent but it's usually a mood but like the whole game feels indifferent.

[Aristeia]

Dats how good do you feel about andante flipping scum ?

[Aristeia]

why's Datisi mafia?

[Aristeia]

ok what would town him be doing here instead?

[Aristeia]

um I was in the 200p game with you.

and it's over now so you have time now?

[Aristeia]

if you're town here I really do want to figure it out ;_;

[Aristeia]

maybe i'm just really bad at reading you

[Aristeia]

i keep thinking the more I read the more it will like make sense but it doesn't and I just get sleepy

[Aristeia]

i had a flash of this being town!andante and scum!implo and implo tmi-ing her alignment by saying "she's really trying" because i really struggle to see how he reads this ate as "genuinely trying"

i can do implo I guess

I haven't suspected him yet this game

[Aristeia]

i mean this is gonna sound pretty weird but just reading energy i feel like andante has a lot of WIM that i don't think scum has

fireisredsir posts leave me with something to be desired, i remember a more analytical fireisredsir in other games and it just seems to be lacking that spark, but it's possible i'm just missing something

yea he is really like not into this game at all

[Aristeia]

I haven't suspected him yet this game

a christmas miracle.

i know I would've townread you if you suspected me for it but you didn't !!