A Dance with Dragons Mafia: A New Dawn!

[Thor665]

Greetings - I've got like three days till deadline and am a lazy reader to start with, much less for 100+ pages of bickering.

Who is scum and who should I sheep?

[Thor665]

Don't much matter if people are pushing me, I'll be obv. town in everyone's minds soon enough.

Which of the wagons you mentioned do you like and which do you hate?

[Thor665]

Fair enough.

Vote: Feysal

Let's speed lynch him too, just for yucks.

[Thor665]

Hold the Smurf up. No ones hammering until I get time to do the big sit down I want to do in a few hours from now to look at Feysal (4-5 in all likelihood).

Who is the scum on the wagon?

Why do you think it is a good idea to sheep plums yo mama andor zdenek?

It isn't a good idea?

[Thor665]

Why are you so sure on Timeater when, on Day 3 you're still unable to tie him in functionally to a scum group?

[Thor665]

Or Day 4, even more embarrassing.

[Thor665]

@Timeater - Why aren't you voting RegFan?

[Thor665]

Thor, read the game or at least skim it and unvote Feysal, I don't want Timeater or anyone else to have a chance to blitz hammer ending the day.

Timeater is probably town.
I would be fine with a blitz hammer that ends the day.

[Thor665]

@Zdenek - this is how your last post reads to me;

I did research on Feysal's scum meta.
It doesn't match his play here.
I would like to lynch him here.
Therefore I'll say the meta doesn't matter because he could have changed it.

Unvote: Feysal
Vote: Zdenek

[Thor665]

Pushing through the Feysal lynch - derp.

I'm calling him obv. town as of now - you may react accordingly.

[Thor665]

I see him as obv. town - that seems self explanatory at that stage.
You are pushing the wagon.
You are doing so with questionable logic.
QED

[Thor665]

Yeah, Zdenek's scum - vote is perma locked.
Everyone can sheep me now.

[Thor665]

You have just confirmed you're denser than a doorknob - sadly you're still town.
And Zdenek didn't even come close to winning anything, as every player with half a brain will soon confirm for you - his "case" is Swiss cheese and desperation, and mine is blatantly pro town.

[Thor665]

Yes, my brilliant plan of ad homing you while calling you town, I am a clever bastich whose deviltry knows no bounds.

If you consider Zdenek's commentary awesome and pro-town then you will never see me be awesome and pro-town in this or any other game (because even as scum I'm better than that).

[Thor665]

Exactly what he thought is questionable is completely unclear

Completely unclear?
What did you think 2704 was?

This current argument is stupid. The only thing that makes sense is that Thor is reaction testing of some sort.

I am not.
Vote accordingly.

Thor is being really obvious, damn.

Let's not waste any more time and string him up.

Indeed.

You should probably explain exactly how I'm being "obvious" to help sell everyone on that plan.

Sure I'm missing someone and that's loads unhelpful because my reads suck.

This is like the fourth time I've read this from you and I've been in the game...two days? One and a half?

Why shouldn't we be lynching you after Zdenek? Is this a Mina alt? Because that's the only thing that springs to mind, and

[Thor665]

and you haven't screamed yet, so...

[Thor665]

But, in addition to that, that I also was hiding my reasons for thinking you were scummy...even though I stated them when I voted?

[Thor665]

Yes, that look sfunctional to me - where do you fail to see me saying why I have issue with you? Because I see me saying it in all three posts.

[Thor665]

it's an easy thing to account for, and in attempting to account for it, he could have over done his attack on the Timeater slot. Are you trying to argue that people don't try to adjust their scum play when they're caught for something?

Yeah, but you actually say you see this as in line with his town meta.
And then kept pushing him with that as the excuse.
After looking at one scum game.
It all feels quite fake and the logic doesn't follow through.

In the second post you appear to have decided that Feysal is obv. town because I've been pushing his lynch.

Actually I did it from your reaction to his meta, but, yes, my belief of your alignment colored my belief of his and vice versa. It's very Catch-22

In the third post you act as though you thought Feysal was obv. town before and that you're read on him is one of the reasons that you think I am scummy.

Isn't this just a repeat of your issues with post 2?
And I don't see how I'm claiming I thought he was town prior to that exchange, what am I missing there?

1. We're not lynching Zdnenek, he's town.
2. We're not lynching me after, I'm town.

1. Why is he town?
2. Hurm.

You'll have to try to get through all the people who have townreads on us both to get to the lynching part. Coming in on day 4 and trying to bully isn't going to get that *shrug*. But, you are better than this, even as scum I know you're better than this. You played loads better when you replaced into Experimental.

Yes...and?

You're ridiculous if you think scum talk about how their reads suck, or if I would as scum. I'd totally have some scum reads, especially to avoid your type of tripe, coming up with fake reasons why people are scum is easy and easier in multiball.[

Ah, so it's silly to think of it as a scumtell...so it's a town tell?
That's at least as silly as my stance, maybe sillier considering.
The scumvandtage would be avoiding taking stances, also known as fencesitting - which is widely accepted as a decent play for scum to make, especially if they can make it look less scummy by coming at it sideways to fool people. So, yeah, I think it's a fair call to make - why am I wrong?

[Thor665]

Vote the scumbag, Lyanna.

You dodged my earlier question.
Why am I such an obv. scumbag?
I would expect Mina to want to scream that one from the heavens to prove how clever she is, so...?

[Thor665]

Jal was me, right?
There probably was no case. So...


@Lyanna - went back and looked at Experimental. I was scum, so you saying I'm playing differently now hardly fills me with terror.

[Thor665]

1. Read his iso.
2. Hurm...read my iso.

You can't sum up why he's so obvious town in two sentences or so?
I mean, obvious town to the point it's cRaZy that Thor is attacking him?

Also, if this is multiball, it doesn't matter except insomuch as I might be wrong on Feysal - but you still lynch the scummier looker of the pair first; even in multiball.

[Thor665]

Nope! Not gonna. Iso him. I'm not here to tell you why someone is town that you haven't bothered to read. Do the work yourself. You have a ScUm read on him, it shouldn't be that difficult for you. You should even want more ~reasons~ than the drivel you spouted so far.

All excellent reasons to think he's obv. town...wait...

Okay, I'll bite, what about Zdenek is more ScUmMy looking than Feysal?

I explained that when I voted him - what are your thoughts on that and his return attack on me so suddenly?

I'll still be amused to see anyone voting me actually explain how I'm scummy in any way at all.
The current trend seems to be "Thor is scum" and leaving it at that.
Awesome wagon.

We should get some Zdenek counter votes though - just so some people can try to say they weren't idiots when I flip town, that might be good for a laugh.

[Thor665]

@Timeater - since you think I'm town, what is your read on Zdenek and does he look obv. town?

[Thor665]

Stop dicking around with me and read. Totally, not in the mood.

Highly unlikely to read the game.

May read specific posts or for specific threads of action if the mood strikes me or someone has a valid and clear reason for m doing so.

So, either get serious about my wagon because of this, explain the Zdenek as town read, or sheep me.

@Timeater - his attack on me felt sudden and disproportionate to my actions to him and the game state - your thoughts?

[Thor665]

@Magua - yeah, you can hate it, but can you explain the case on me?

I can't.

If, like, say you told me everyone would hseep me if I could - I'd just have to shrug and guess.
That's why the case is bad - if you can explain it that would be awesome and I'll call you town for the next two game days, bet you can't.

[Thor665]

That's clearly horse-hooey, the new flurry of voters (and yourself) cited me as acting scummy. Clearly I did something to add to the preexisting case (whatever it may be) or else all of you are some combination of derp and/or scum.

[Thor665]

That's because your back and forth with Zdenek reads as incredibly fake. "Vote permalocked." It's like it's trying to jump up and down and scream "I'm a reaction test! Isn't that townie of me?"

You don't think his reaction might have twigged me? To ask it again in a roundabout manner - you find his reaction normal, more or less? Because that would make me scummy.

Replacements are making this game surprisingly easy.

Anxiety, Thor, AV, scum the lot of 'em.

Still waiting for you to explain how I look like scum in any way. I know this is a Mina and CES slot and that neither of them like to explain their reads ever...oh, wait, actually I believe the opposite, but, hey, I'm probably wrong.

[Thor665]

Would like you to explain your town-read on [Timeater] for me

Early VT claim and beard.
Why is he scum?

would also want you to explain why you were happy with a blitz hammer that ends the day on Feysal when you move on to call him 'obv.town'.

Okay, when I said that I didn't have a town read on him, so it's an inherently slightly derp question unless you think I did have a town read on him when I said that, and if that's the case show me where I said or implied that.

Also your push on Zdenek is really stupid. He never said "This isn't like Feysals scum meta, therefore he could still be scum that changed meta"

Okay so reviewing Feysal's play here, it doesn't actually look all that different from his play in AFFC. The only thing that stands out is posting rate.

Here he says his game here looks like his town play.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p4386533
Here he says that he changed his meta from his scum play.

What am I missing?

in fact he stated he thinks his play here matches his scum meta

Quote or link?

Want to hear your other reads at the moment as well / how much of the thread you've read.

I've already expressed the reads I have and also explained how much of the game I've read - which parts confuse you?

[Thor665]

Both his predecessors claimed VT at some point before replcing out so I don't see how that's a town-tell at all. Also your beard is fake.

Yes, and his predecessors had an early VT claim. A town read on them transfers after a replace, same as a scum read does.

Being happy with a blitz hammer means you're comfortable voting the person you are (Especially if they're the lynch that the blitz hammer is being talked about), I don't understand you saying that if you didn't read Feysals posts yourself at all at the time and if you had then I don't understand the change from 'happy with lynch' to 'obv.town'.

I never read Feysal's posts - I've made that quite clear. React accordingly.

I'll bold what you're missing then:

I'll snip it down to respond. Quotes are Zdenek, not Regfan - but, whatevs.

F

eysal's posting rate is something like half of what it was in that game. This already sends off warning bells.

I disagree with Regfan's point #1 about Feysal.

He says the posting rate is different - yes.
He also said that otherwise the play was his town play, not his scum play...so...?
Disagreeing with Regfan's post #1 is saying that Feysal is *not* a tunneler when town.
He also says he doesn't think Feysal is tunneling here, so...?

Okay so reviewing Feysal's play here, it doesn't actually look all that different from his play in AFFC.

The only thing that stands out is posting rate.

This is to clarify that I'm correct above - again, he's saying it's his town play, not his scum play, though he is posting less (something he does attribute to his scum play (though saying it's even worse than here). Meaning he really needs to look at other games to get *any* sort of real baseline here.

He gave out scum reads on Spyrex, Staeg and Elmo. He switched his vote to Shadow Dancer. Then Drey. Without commenting I think on Shadowdancer/his replacement.

Totally a tunneler when scum...wait...

He also didn't have any solid suspects during the game. On the other hand I believe that was the main reason that Spyrex was suspicious of him, and it's an easy thing to correct for

(and, for instance, ending up being overly focussed on one person). All this considered, I don't think that the meta on Feysal is relevant to his alignment.

So the bottom line is that he's playing like scum, so we should lynch him.

[/quote]
No, the bottom line is he's playing like scum...with the caveat that he has changed his meta that I am looking at.
Which is what I said Zdenek said.
Are you still not seeing this? Because I don't see him saying it's the same, i see him hedging around it, and then saying something was obviously adjusted for and consequently he must be scum.

Clarify pl0x?

[Thor665]

Thor, explain your thought process from being okay with a feysal lynch to thinking he is obvtown.

I have explained this to around three people already - could you at least clue me in to what part of the explanation leaves you confused?
Because otherwise I'll just presume you're not reading.

@Timeater - I presume you believe one scum on me is Reg, who else, if any?

[Thor665]

Actually, Reg isn't even on me, so 2 or so scum on me would be tech.

[Thor665]

There are at least 2-3 scum on the Thor wagon

Guaranteed

Who?

Ben, stop copying me to try to look town.

Also, are you in this game? I feel like you barely exist - what's your current take on...anything?

[Thor665]

I am sick, tired and frustrated with the game, and thoroughly disgusted by Plumamma.

Why aren't you replacing out then?

What is it with replacements in this game insisting on killing my townreads on their slots?

I dunno, you still haven't explained how I did it - even though I've asked.

So yeah, reading the thread, I'm laughing my ass off at Thor defending himself by asking people to explain how he's scum in any way. It's scum complaining about being caught for what he thinks is the wrong reason (except, it's not the wrong reason.).

You also still haven't really said how I'm scum other than that I'm "ridiculous" so, yeah, I'm whining about it - is that why I'm scum now, or was there previous reasoning?

[Thor665]

Don't you think pointing it out would help all those other idiot towns to vote correctly?

[Thor665]

Thor is playing dumb.

I've been clear.

This is your stated case thus far;

You voted Feysal, said nothing about him, attacked me when I tried to figure out if the meta arguments regarding Feysal made sense or not, said that now Feysal is obv. town,

and conclude by acting as though you saw him as obv. town before I tried to work out if the meta arguments made sense

.

I don't understand how that makes me scum even if it was true, and it has bits that aren't (highlighted in red).

Don't you think pointing it out would help all those other idiot towns to vote correctly?

That's boring and I'm not about to bother with a case for you to deconstruct. People should just sheep Minimum.

This case on me must be awesome indeed, let's quote Minimum's case;

Thor is being really obvious, damn.

Let's not waste any more time and string him up.

Yeah, I'm being "obvious"
Obvious in what way? Like, as in what did I do that was obviously a scum action?

Why is this so hard to get anyone to say?
Oh, right, derp wagon with scum pushing on it - nevermind.

Feel free to prove me wrong.
In other news, Zdenek still needs rope even though he is apparently obv. town in ways no one can explain.

[Thor665]

That quote strengthens what I'm saying and doesn't suggest that I retroactively made the read backwards in time. It specifically has me even saying when you presented that case was when my opinion shifted - so...

[Thor665]

Why are you asking this question... and or making the comment?

I'm scumhunting - after he answers it I'll be willing to expand, but not before. This isn't rocket science, it is mafia.

Also asked you a question asking you to weigh in on anything. I suppose that technically this counts, but it leaves me sad, so I'll try to be more directed.

What are your reads on Minimum, Zdenek, and Feysal?

[Thor665]

That quote strengthens what I'm saying and doesn't suggest that I retroactively made the read backwards in time. It specifically has me even saying when you presented that case was when my opinion shifted - so...

Then explain how you came to your reads, because that ...vice versa ... catch-22" business in your post make no sense to me.

I said that your take of his meta made him look town.
I also noted that seeing your take of his meta made you look scum.
Considering your push both actions compounded on each other - making a Catch-22 strengthening cycle as well.

Seemed pretty clear what I meant to me - and I can't figure out where you think I was saying I had the read *earlier* than that, wanna clarify that?

[Thor665]

-Asking a player why he hasn't replaced out... scumhunting... and when he says the same response I just did... What have you ascertained?(As it'll probably be a few RL days before he posts again... and I'd wager a million hats he doesn't bother with your (imo) useless question when there's so much more to be concerned with.)

-Ah yes weighing in... sorry couldn't stop laughing at the initial pointless redunculous assertion. But uhmm we'll go with Slight town-N/A(forgetwhozedreplaced)-and scum... and once again mention I have much to read if I ever eventually get to it.

1. If it's so meaningless to you, then simply accept my answer of not wanting to tell you my call till after I get his reaction. ::shrug:: Wosrt case you can call it scummily bad scumhunting, best case I get a read, everything inbetween seems Jake for you in any case. If you think there's stuff I should be commenting on that I'm not - you're allowed to ask me about it instead of derp question answering.

2. You smell bad and probably have an ugly face.
Zdenek replaced - pappums rat/Amrun/Seraphim

What do you think of the wagon on me? Is it awesome and makes sense, as those voting say - or is it unsupported and derp as I say?

You don't think that after being caught for something as scum, Feysal would try to correct for that?'

You have examples he's done this in the past?
It is my belief that most scum are caught by derp and luck rather than legit tells, I see players occasionally adjust but changing play meta is a difficult task and would usually require you to aim to do it first in town games to establish it as 'meta' in any case. So, if he is changing, the real question is 'is he changing to match his already existing town meta' and if we accept that his town meta and scum meta are now identical...it's still pretty scummy to cite meta as worth anything when trying to lynch him.

As far as I can tell, that's because of a misrepresentation on your part of what I said.
[quote="Thor"}Considering your push both actions compounded on each other - making a Catch-22 strengthening cycle as well.

This is multiball, so that's bullSmurf.[/quote]
You seem to have more issue with my town read than with my scumread - which makes your vote shift less sensible, and this also proves no misrep on my part. It does prove that you think my logic is bad, I suppose, but that is meaningless to what you're saying it means.

Seemed pretty clear what I meant to me - and I can't figure out where you think I was saying I had the read *earlier* than that, wanna clarify that?

Because you said:

I see him as obv. town - that seems self explanatory at that stage.
You are pushing the wagon.
You are doing so with questionable logic.
QED

which implies in part that you think he is town, and that you think I am scum for pushing a wagon on town. The argument that he'd be cleared as town because someone scummy is pushing the wagon is wrong because this is multiball. Implying that you needed to have a town read on him before hand.

How does that imply I needed a townread on him beforehand?
How does that logic work when i clearly said I just got the town read right then?
Again, as far as I can tell you're proving that what I've said happened did happen and then acting like it somehow...doesn't?
Oh, it's because you *think* I must have done it beforehand and ignored when I said I didn't, is *that* what is making me scummy? That would make as much sense as I think this case does.

If I'm wrong, please clarify where and how, thanks!

[Thor665]

-Asking a player why he hasn't replaced out... scumhunting... and when he says the same response I just did... What have you ascertained?(As it'll probably be a few RL days before he posts again... and I'd wager a million hats he doesn't bother with your (imo) useless question when there's so much more to be concerned with.)

-Ah yes weighing in... sorry couldn't stop laughing at the initial pointless redunculous assertion. But uhmm we'll go with Slight town-N/A(forgetwhozedreplaced)-and scum... and once again mention I have much to read if I ever eventually get to it.

1. If it's so meaningless to you, then simply accept my answer of not wanting to tell you my call till after I get his reaction. ::shrug:: Wosrt case you can call it scummily bad scumhunting, best case I get a read, everything inbetween seems Jake for you in any case. If you think there's stuff I should be commenting on that I'm not - you're allowed to ask me about it instead of derp question answering.

2. You smell bad and probably have an ugly face.
Zdenek replaced - pappums rat/Amrun/Seraphim

What do you think of the wagon on me? Is it awesome and makes sense, as those voting say - or is it unsupported and derp as I say?

You don't think that after being caught for something as scum, Feysal would try to correct for that?'

You have examples he's done this in the past?
It is my belief that most scum are caught by derp and luck rather than legit tells, I see players occasionally adjust but changing play meta is a difficult task and would usually require you to aim to do it first in town games to establish it as 'meta' in any case. So, if he is changing, the real question is 'is he changing to match his already existing town meta' and if we accept that his town meta and scum meta are now identical...it's still pretty scummy to cite meta as worth anything when trying to lynch him.

As far as I can tell, that's because of a misrepresentation on your part of what I said.

Considering your push both actions compounded on each other - making a Catch-22 strengthening cycle as well.

This is multiball, so that's bullSmurf.

You seem to have more issue with my town read than with my scumread - which makes your vote shift less sensible, and this also proves no misrep on my part. It does prove that you think my logic is bad, I suppose, but that is meaningless to what you're saying it means.

Seemed pretty clear what I meant to me - and I can't figure out where you think I was saying I had the read *earlier* than that, wanna clarify that?

Because you said:

I see him as obv. town - that seems self explanatory at that stage.
You are pushing the wagon.
You are doing so with questionable logic.
QED

which implies in part that you think he is town, and that you think I am scum for pushing a wagon on town. The argument that he'd be cleared as town because someone scummy is pushing the wagon is wrong because this is multiball. Implying that you needed to have a town read on him before hand.

How does that imply I needed a townread on him beforehand?
How does that logic work when i clearly said I just got the town read right then?
Again, as far as I can tell you're proving that what I've said happened did happen and then acting like it somehow...doesn't?
Oh, it's because you *think* I must have done it beforehand and ignored when I said I didn't, is *that* what is making me scummy? That would make as much sense as I think this case does.

If I'm wrong, please clarify where and how, thanks!


EBWOP - there, that fixes it. You need to use [ not { !

[Thor665]

It doesn't make any sense for you to gain a town read on him because I am attacking him because this is multiball. So either you had one on him to begin with or your reasons for having one are garbage.

I do not believe that you are this stupid, so my only conclusion is that you are scum pushing nonsensical bullSmurf.

Thor is obviously scum.

Ah, okay, if you repeat bullSmurf enough it totally derails my case and helps yours - natch.
But at least now I know what the case is, it's "Player X is too good to neener-neener-neener"

Which is one of the worst inherent cases in all of Mafiascum no matter how you fill in the blanks, and every time it was ever the case on me I've been town, so...
I like my meta twisting case on you better, it also sounds sexier.

[Thor665]

Also, because I hate those cases;

I did some Google-fu, the two most recent completed games I have with Zdenek are Atom Mafia and Mirror mafia.
I was scum in both and he was town in both.

@Zdenek - what is this "better" Thor you're familiar with...is it scum Thor?

=====================

Oh wait, this gets funnier. Looks like in Storm of Swords Thor *was* town...with scum Zdenek, let's look at some interplay;

"Thor has not answered my questions about the "logic loops" that he's claimed that I've made, and yesterday he said that he thought I was town and voted me in hopes of preventing a Feysal lynch. "
Thor changes scum and town reads quickly and without explanation. Scummy Zdenek hops on this.

"[Thor] say

meh to someone who thinks that I am scum, which appears to agree with your feelings, and then you vote for me, providing no reason, when yesterday you thought I was town?"
Again, Thor with sudden reverse reads - look how scummy Thor is.

He also kept demanding that I explain how I saw holes in his logic.

That is, again, SCUM Zdenek responding to TOWN Thor.
Any similarities?
Any evidence of Zdenek expecting me to be "better"?

Knock my socks off everyone.

[Thor665]

Check.
-You don't have a read on Feysal? (all things considered-everything he's said thus.. asking why he hasn't replaced will suddenly manifest a read?? )

I've used that question as scumreads before - again, whether or not you think it's good is meaningless to me.
Yes, I have a read on Feysal, but reads can and do change, and even if they don't I like to give them a chance to be reinforced.

What's yout take on the Zdenek vs. Thor situation?

[Thor665]

@Benmage - considering how obviously little you've read of anything, your opinions seem kinda derp to me now. The case on me is explicitly tied in to my opinion on Feysal and has been an ongoing thread in practically half of my posts - how can you want me lynched and have missed that?

[Thor665]

I forget.

How;d you miss it?

[Thor665]

I've called him town.

Why do you have a read on me if you're unaware of that - what have you read from me besides whining that I might be slightly more useless than you?

[Thor665]

Thor - I've barely skimmed your back and forth because I think it's largely meaningless, but I'd like you to answer a couple things.

1. What purpose would scum!Zdenek have for analyzing the meta defense for a wagon that he was already on?
2. Where are you getting that Zdenek had not talked about Feysal before this instance? A quick iso and Ctrl-F demonstrates that Zdenek has talked about Feysal on multiple occasions, earlier coming to the conclusion that he was by PoE likely scum.
3. Did you not recognize that Zdenek was responding to Regfan's meta defense of Feysal in the first place and doing his own research to see if this held water?
4. How in multiball, can you legitimately claim to have a town read on someone, you haven't even iso'd, because you have a scum read on someone who is pushing him?
5. Feysal early on day one discussed how scum often have trouble finding scum and voted someone else for it, discuss how it's implausible that Zdenek could determine that he could be correcting a scum issue of his own.
6. Did you miss the part where Zdenek is NOT saying Feysal is scum because of the meta but is saying that the meta can't be used in his defense because of very plausible issues x, y, z?
7. In your meta comparison of Zdenek and you in past games, did you compare how Zdenek reacts to people as town in addition to how he reacted to you when he was scum?

This should be amusing.

1. What purpose would town Zdenek who had already obviouslly assessed the situation before voting have in doing so afterwards? You answered this yourself no matter what his alignment was - he was ASKED to. Derp.

2. When did I claim this in any way?

3. I did recognize this, it is meaningless to my reads.

4. Because no one is actually explaining how Feysal is scummy outside of vague "derp, playstyle" type commentary. Even when I asked. If he was scum, then probably a buddy is bussing him, or desperate to hard defend him at this point - in either situation someone should have chimed up to put their stamp on th elynch or to decry it as derp. No one did.

5. For someone screaming about how it's multiball, I am amazed Zdenek doesn't think scum can just scumhunt normally. Again, derp.

6. Did you miss the part where his claim is that Feysal is scumhunting how he scumhunts but that he's doing it as a scum gambit via switching up his meta even though we are in a game type where he can just legit scumhunt regardless?

7. No, because it was meaningless. Zdenek cited meta of his experience with me "Thor is 'better' than this" So all that matters is his interactions with me. The one game we had (a actual predecessor to this one) he, as scum, used functionally the same case on me as he is now. All his other experiences with me are as scum, in which case if I'm 'better' then he should think I'm better as I was in those games if he thinks I'm really scum.

Ergo: he is lying or incredibly bad at this game - what's your take?

[Thor665]

I will say in the games where I was scum and Zdenek was town he thought I was town for the most part, and at least never really attacked me except by noting once how I was perhaps chainsawing/trying to back off of a read (I forget which)

But the scum vs. town situation played out quite different. Natch.

[Thor665]

Still waiting for you to explain how I look like scum in any way. I know this is a Mina and CES slot and that neither of them like to explain their reads ever...oh, wait, actually I believe the opposite, but, hey, I'm probably wrong.

Have you played with CES before? How do you feel he'd react as town if he was convinced you were scum? What kind of arguments has he made in your experience in that situation?

I've played a lot with CES, I suspect he'd agree with that.
I have never found him to be a Wussy McWuss about explaining a scumread when asked - feel free to show me how wrong I am.

Also, Zdenek is one of my strongest town reads, particularly since I've seen him as both alignments and this feels

much

more like his town play--furthermore, even if he's scum playing superbly, he's obviously genuine in his Thor suspicions. The fact that Thor didn't pick up on this in the first place was already off, but now his taking quotes from ASoS and using superficial meta like "he attacked me for changing a read in both games!" against Zdenek looks like scum hiding behind an "evidence"-based case and ignoring context.

yes, how crazy of me to bring in evidence to support my already in existance context based case.
Totally a scum move that is.

(There are other reasons I'm okay with our Thor vote, but other people have touched on them, and I don't feel like obliging his "No one is allowed to suspect me at all without REASONS! No, those reasons aren't good enough. You have to format them like a case, and then unvote me after I respond to each of them" whining.

Exactly one player has put it into words.
"Thor is better"
I have not said that my total owning of that proves I'm town - I just want to make anyone who agrees with it respond to how I owned it.
And, again, how scummy of me to show how the case doesn't actually hold water and then being peeved when people don't even want to talk about that - no way that would annoy a town player, not at all, the pro-town thing would be to shrug and self vote or something, yes.

Also, I always demand the case - as town or scum. I generally am told the case more often when i am scum, just saying.

There's nothing amusing about it. I'm trying to get a read on you. I'm not interested in starting a wall war though.

And yet it remains amusing.

Who asked him to? Regfan posted a defense and rebuttal to plum's case on feysal, part of it was based on meta. He then did some meta research to determine if the meta defense was valid in his eyes. As scum, he didn't have to do this, in fact he'd have little incentive to do it, and would be unlikely to talk about the differences and come to the conclusion he did. He could have just said that he read his meta and disagrees with regfan.

Again, why not do that as town as well considering how mumbly he got about it? I agree that it doesn't make him any scummier, but I don't get why it should make him look any townier. As town or scum it's reasonable and normal to respond to defend your chosen case if someone is bashing it.

I saw him conjecturing why his meta defense can't really be used as a defense. The thing is that feysal's scum hunting this game also doesn't fit his town meta, which is where some of the underlying issue is.

Who has made that assertion? Not Zdenek.

Did the argument you had with him in the previous one get as loud as this one? His immediate vote on you felt incredibly genuine and is something I've seen him do as town and can't quite see him doing as scum. The way he is reacting to you is exactly the way he reacted to me in GvE when he thought he'd caught scum.

He reacted with an immediate vote on the Day when I opened voting him after previously calling him town and brought that up repeatedly to suggest the case had no merit.
I don't see it as a shocking change of playstyle, no. I don't think scum him likes votes on him.

I said you were better too, and you were. The way you're going after this doesnt feel natural. It doesn't feel like you're actually trying to get a read on zdenek but are trying to construct why his argument is scummy, when it's not. As scum in experimental you seemed like you were actually trying to get reads on people, and just because you were scum there and we're different, doesn't mean you're town here.

If I was scum there and played different it *does* mean that the 'Thor is better' ought to apply to when I'm scum too.
It is ruddy obvious I think "this" *IS* "better" or I wouldn't be doing it as town OR scum.
Derp, derp, derp. The case is moronic at its core.
Oh, yeah, Storm of Swords - the 'Thor is better' case was used on me.
Derp.

I think he got stuck in an argument in which he thinks his actions are being twisted to be used against him and is acting accordingly.

And yet I'm the one who has shown that more people are misrepresenting or even inventing comments about what I'm doing. He hasn't except to say he thinks I'm thinking things which would then make my actions suspect (as long as he ignores what I typed). Tell me I'm wrong, please.
The case on me is reactionary derp and scum - it's pretty obvious.

Zdenek freaked on me after functionally no pressure and a wagon of 1 vote because somehow my commentary was more scummy than the guy he had gone and done extensive meta research to get lynched?

Please...

[Thor665]

@Lyanna

Also, i forgot, and you haven't addressed this - I showed Zdenek's and my total games together. 2 with me as scum, and him town, 1 with him as scum and me town wherein he pushed on me for having odd reads that came from nowhere - where do you think he's getting this "better" case from?

Very serious question.

[Thor665]

Because, y'know, that's a flashing scumtell.

[Thor665]

@Thor665

- you do realize that chances that you will push Zdenek wagon to the lynch stage today are really small? Are you going to settle for a compromise lynch? Have you seen case(s) on Feysal and Timeater slot, what are your thoughts?

The top three wagons are me, Feysal, and Timeater. I have expressed interest in lynching Zdenek and Minimalist.
I know I am town and think the other two are likely town - where do you think I am better served placing my vote?
If I could think of something, I'd be there.

[Thor665]

That's a lot of reading - what are the sweet points I'm looking for?
If you've already put them in a cute case clue me in to a rough location of that and I'll read it instead.

[Thor665]

if you vote Feysal, you can free me up to scumhunt elsewhere
if you vote Timeater, Feysal is actually forced to do things after he flips town
either vote is better than insufferable Zdenek vote

1. Oh posh.
2. But if Feysal is scum and I am right about Timeater this is incredibly dumb.
3. Except that either he and I are talking from totally different universes, or he is scum?

Though, seriously, tell you what, I'll lulz hammer right now if you tell me your take on the Zdenek/Thor back and forth? Who do you think is scoring more points there and why? Because I feel I am blatant winning and am being ignored, and I think everyone voting me can't explain their case because there isn't one, and I might be down to slam Feysal and call it a scumbuddy rush to save - but only if I'm right in that perception.

[Thor665]

@Minimum - I know that I think the Feysal case is bunk, I've said as much. Nice to see you agree though. Also, his take on Feysal and his take on me is meaningless to the Zdenek question I have except for my own edification.

Also, you still haven't explained jack on me yet, so feel free to do that while we wait for me to lulzhammer.

Or maybe, y'know, explain to me how I'm utter nuts for not only thinking how what I'm doing isn't scummy but that I've winning/have won the debate with Zdenek?

[Thor665]

unvote

Wanna vote Zdenek or explain how I'm crazy and vote me?
That would be sexy.

[Thor665]

If you want to talk about Zdenek/Thor, talk about Feysal/Nacho. What the hell am I not seeing that everyone else is? Why is he town?

The case on him is 'playstyle' and shallow to my perception.

:Oh, look, he didn't interact with these scummy people, he must be a scum buddy!"
"He also didn't interact with the other team's scum...he must be...a potential scumbuddy...yes...?"

All that establishes is his play lacked functional interactions and also that a number of players also basically ignored him.
Scum from two different teams calling the lurker on the town side of null hardly sells me either.

The best you have is the soft support for the scumbuddy while trying to push through another lynch, but I'm not sure that's as much of a slam dunk as you think it is.

Wanna tit for tat me now?

[Thor665]

@Lyanna - how did I misconstrue his case?
Also - his meta reaction to me as scum when i was town and his comments about the 'Thor iz betta' case really are quite applicable. Also him saying they're not for an awkward hypocrisy angle that doesn't hold through to hand wave it away doesn't either.

[Thor665]

Thor, so are you saying that you asked Nacho his thoughts on you vs. Zdenek just for your personal edification? That threat to hammer Feysal if Nacho reassured you that you were totally making Zdenek look like Barack Obama in the first presidential debate--it wasn't true?

The world shall never know because Nacho refused to play.

Also, how much of this game have you read? And do you have a reason for thinking Feysal is town in a vacuum, not just "People's reasons for suspecting Feysal are bad"?

I've read what I've said I read - I haven't been shy about clarifying that.
And, yeah, if you take away the reasoning for not liking the case I don't have any reasoning for not liking the case.

I was going to tell you why I suspected you

again

, Thor, but then I remembered this:

Link to the first time you did (maybe even a rough post number or page number or something)?
I missed it.

1) pushed that one point beyond all proportion, acting as though he was confirmed scum, and 2) seemed not to have noticed that the rest of Zdenek's play was town-motivated, or that those kind of opinions aren't out of character for him.

1. This only counts if you think I'm making up the points and don't believe them - I will presume you don't find the aggressiveness of the push to be unusual for me because you should know better than that. So...I don't see the tell there really.

2. Correct, I have not noticed this.

I'm surprised to see someone who says "BullSmurf" with a straight face be so abrasive and irritable this game. Link to a scum game where he played similarly to this--ideally with an explanation as to how--by the way?

Why would you need that, you think I'm scum.
Wouldn't you want a town game of the same?

[Thor665]

I was going to tell you why I suspected you

again

, Thor, but then I remembered this:

Link to the first time you did (maybe even a rough post number or page number or something)?
I missed it.

2875?
Where you point out that it's scummy for me to have accurately noted that Zdenek is pulling the 'Thor should be betta' tell from his rectum?

You also have the 'Thor is really obvious' post - but I don't think that one counts.

[Thor665]

I've hinted at my reasons in my posts. If you can't find them, I don't care.

I was going to tell you why I suspected you

again

, Thor, but then I remembered this:

Oh,

hints

, okay, sure.

Never mind that Zdenek has already called you on your moving the goalposts re: your Feysal read.

Moving the goalposts?
I call it, getting clearer opinions and reads as I learn more and responding to information I'm seeing presented for the first time, but, sorry, I know you have to phrase it so it sounds scummy.

And I only asked for a scum game because Tyene said you played

like this

as

scum

? Duh?

And 'don't play like this as town' I hope.

[Thor665]

And Thor, that's it. I know you're scum. You know I know you're scum. Interacting with you is completely unproductive, because you clearly don't believe anything you're arguing. Now the tricky part will just be convincing other people of it tomorrow.

I'll have to use this quote sometime to get you lynched or mock you if you ever try to get me lynched and claim to know what I do or don't believe when presenting cases.

[Thor665]

Thor, I'd worry more about being wrong if instead of repeatedly telling me how dumb I'll feel when you flip town, you just

play like town and try to find the scum

. Because if you're town, then sorry, but you've been playing horrendously and childishly so far. I thought there was a chance you were just reaction-testing by "I'm convinced Feysal is obvtown/I have crappy reasons for actually

thinking

he's obvtown/no, I won't explain what these reasons are/no, I haven't actually read the thread." But you've had plenty of time to step up your game.

1. I have explained my Feysal read (how can I have 'changing goal posts' unless I've been reacting to the cases on him?)
2. You think not explaining reads is scummy - who has explained their read on me? Not you (though you've "hinted")? Derp-de-derp Minimum.
3. I love that you say you think I am not reaction testing and not scumhunting - then you continually point out how I'm having loud cases and issues and demanding reactions to them from people (and, let's be honest here - having people refuse to do so...and then I seem to start having issues with those people and their reads)



Also, yes, I really do think Zdenek is scum, is fairly obv. scum, and that people are not looking at the case on him because they're being derp, and (crazily) I am becoming more and more focused on trying to force people to respond to that and becoming louder and more belligerent as I am continuously stymied.

And this is so *not* my town meta at all and is only done by scum Thor, just ask the handful of people refusing to explain reads and saying I need rope...

[Thor665]

Vote: Zdenek

Reason - he didn't vote for me or mention me today.
Also might go for Tyrene, but the vote counts don't totally sell me on that.
I think derpPlum who is voting me is town regardless of derp.

If we massclaim, which I have no issue with, it should be popcorn.
I actually don't really care at this stage as I see it accomplishing little.

[Thor665]

I'm more onboard for the Tyrene without an 'r' lynch now.
Still want Zdenek dead too though.

[Thor665]

@Magua - the argument for him being town is based off meta that says he tunnels and has bad logic as town.
I just showed he wasn't tunneling me despite yesterday.
So...?

[Thor665]

Thor: Heeeeelllloooo you're not the one that Zdenek is tunneling stop being a speshul snowflake and let others take the stage.

If he's tunneling you then I should have noticed yesterday.
Yesterday was Feysal softly and me strongly - today was you.
Do you still think he's clear tunneling?

[Thor665]

Holy lord almighty, how didn't I even realize Thor had 68 posts.

By not looking at the posting activity?
This is a meaningless comment - I've been highly active here since my replace in except for a stated v/la period, so...?

BB - what's your take on the Zdenek and Tyrene with an 'r' situation? Do you see a monster tunnel there and do ou think that makes Zdenek townish?

[Thor665]

Also, Feysal's vote is on RegFan right now.

[Thor665]

And since all the scum are going to claim VT anyways, Tierce, you're removing any chance that they'll crosskill.

Actually, I'm getting behind this.
Yeah, I'll oppose massclaim now.

I have no idea how bbmolla's claim clears him. He could easily be aegon scum, making sure that the other groups knows they are separated, and his soft claim of being important and not wanting to be nightkilled are not particularly townie either. I would not vote him today because there are several better lynches, but there's no way I'd write him off as town.

You think he's scum who softclaimed a PR and that he was important as a trick to outwit the other scumteam somehow?
I don't get how that works.

[Thor665]

Dumb aligned because she likes Sansa and not Arya?

I've only read up through most of Clash though, I'll admit, but still - I'm willing to go out on a limb that she isn't an obv. scum claim and that there are likely fake claims regardless, so bleh.

[Thor665]

@Tyrene without an 'r'

BB sheeped AV, sooooo...AV is the scum due to bad play there...?

I'm leaning neither of them as scum - how about you sheep us for lulz?

[Thor665]

You're voting town though, so that sadly doesn't sell me.

What's your read on AV, BB, and Minimum? (you can add in Shinori and Reg if you ant)
After you slide out those thoughts - re-look at the Sapo wagon and remind me who scum is.

If not for Reg I'd want to lynch Minimum so very dead - but his argument makes sense, sadly. Thus it should still be Zdenek unless you have another likely scum in that pool - because they are not all town as seems to be the current trend.

[Thor665]

If not for Reg I'd want to lynch Minimum so very dead - but

his argument makes sense

, sadly.

Links please?

His big wall of clears and suspicions a few pages back.
Though I apparently was mixing up Anxiety and Minimum in my head.

Call it a comfortable willingness to slide onto Minimum wagon if such happens. But a clear from Aegon scum is better than a 'lol, Zdenek is town due to bad cases and tunnel' in my book.

Why, wanna lynch Minimum?

[Thor665]

That's a joke in a joke, isn't it.

@Plum/Nacho - read on Minimum and Zdenek pl0x?

Also, take on Day 1 Sapo wagon.

[Thor665]

My willingness/lack thereof to lynch Minimum has nothing to do with it. I was asking because there is no evidence of Regfan clearing Minimum in recent time.

So... you go back to see what Regfan posts, but were completely non-cognizant of Zdenek's tunnel on me, when Regfan mentions it and you should be cross-checking it with Zdenek's posts? That is still not going down well.

I understand that you are asking me something here and/or making an accusation.
I honestly do not follow the flow.

It seems like just a 'you no read/understand enough!' call - is that it?
My response is 'sez you'
If I'm missing anything else, let me know.

[Thor665]

I'm getting sheep without needing a case or facts at the moment. I'm content.

[Thor665]

I agree, but my gut has twigged town on AV thus far, hence my current knock. Why am I wrong?

[Thor665]

He's too peeved to be scum currently. He's also taking the unpopular side in opinion too often. He is content to be noticed.

[Thor665]

It's called Post 0 - it helps with that problem.

[Thor665]

And Sapo is listed in the dead list, so...

[Thor665]

I'll withdraw any defense of AV now - I don't want to be associated.

[Thor665]

Well obviously one or two are in the 'lawl, of course this player is town' crowd because that's the way the game works.

[Thor665]

BBMolla's actions don't make sense as scum though unless you think he's scum from [whichever team it was he claimed knowledge of] and he's betting the other team doesn't kill him because they want to leave him alive to help hunt down [whichever team he's giving info on].

So basically he's scum banking that the other scum team won't have enough paranoia to shoot him at some point?
Meh.

[Thor665]

Oh, and while doing that is trying to prove his worth by helping to hunt down his own scumteam too.

[Thor665]

Should he be?

Enough people think he's, at the very least, confirmed [not the scumteam he reported on] which means he's a high priority shot for [other team unless they're dumb]. I don't see enough interest in lynching him to really think they expect him to be lynched, and I don't predict it will happen anytime soon - so really the most exciting thing to do is try to look at the kills and figure why they were worth more than killing BBMolla (and gauging by the quality of his play otherwise - it's not hard to guess) but he's really not a good lynch at least until we've wiped out the scum team he's clearly not a part of.

[Thor665]

Someone do me a favor and read Zdenek's Thor quotes in his above post.

I think he's calling me on hypocrisy...but is also showing a painful lack of reading comprehension because I'm pretty sure I'm saying the exact same message in all three posts.
Since I think he's scum I'll call it scumskimming because it sounds hip.

Does Zdenek town also have a meta of not knowing what people are saying and trying to paint it as scummy regardless in a smarmy way?

[Thor665]

Not exactly.

[Thor665]

and I don't see Thor killing Benmage, for the same reason Magua said he wouldn't

Sadly true, I've claimed as much *while scum*. I'll even admit i think he's not a bad player and has good reads on average, but his attitude destroys towns.

I agree with your Kortul read - the rest look pretty miffy to me.

The only town thing you said was mentioning PoE was kinda a derp plt...though a lot of your reads are currently based on PoE - which leaves me with my usual nags about you.

What am I getting wrong there?

[Thor665]

I'd be willing to go after Zdenek at this point for continuing to push against stupid 'slip ups', or Magua for continually asking me stupid questions about why the obvtown is town. plz to be making bigger wagons on these two and not Timeater.

A flip from me to Zdenek as top lynch choice feels super awkward - discuss.

Timeater is very clearly not Stannis, look at redFF's ISO. So... give me good reasons he is Aegon. I don't even think the slot is scum to begin with.

I agree with this.
Except I actually have done zero work and have zero awareness on the Stannis/Aegon question - but just Timeater doesn't look like scum at all to me. So I support this line of thought.

[Thor665]

@Kortul

1. Your first question 'the difference of response' is a question i don't even fully grok the question part of. Of *course* I'm reacting differently to it because this time I have a feel of it as a scum Zdenek tell whereas at that point I didn't. I'd be more bewildered if I was reacting the same once I made the connection - why does that confuse you?

2. I don't do research because I tend to believe tells of today are as relevant as tells of yesterday, and I can get tells of today easier - also I rather like the scumhunting practice of asking people to explain tells of yesterday prior to me looking at them, and also to see how other people react to people explaining tells of yesterday.

3. Being wrong once (or even more, egads I've done so much more) does not make me think all my reads are inherently bad. One of them was, I goofed up badly, that doesn't mean I have to decide I'm terrible at the game and all my reads are gak. If I keep being wrong in this game a couple of times in a row I will be forced to accept that I'm off (in this game) and try to adjust, but to toss out all my reads because of one wrong one lies the path of Mina-style play, and I don't want to do that.

[Thor665]

As far as the other wagons on Thor and Timeater go, I'm pretty happy with both of them, so that's all good.

Says the guy voting AV while the wagon flakes out from under him and he doesn't address the claim.

But he's town and Thor is derp - carry on!

[Thor665]

While the world is struck into silence by the brilliance of that comment - allow me to also horribly shill a bit of sound for you all. (I apologize for this somewhat...but I figure I have a decent 'replacement bank' built up with the mods here

Majiffy is currently running a Mini Experimental game using audio only posts, and we're looking for one replacement.
So, if you ever wanted to hear me say 'sheep me' in real life (possibly while eating a sammitch) then you should probably consider replacing in. We're still in Day 1 and on...audio file...50 something...it's sorta like around 50 posts, though I expect those to be smaller amounts of posts prior to a lynch.

You are required to be able to record and submit audio in mp3 format to play.
Please PM me or Majiffy (but mostly Majiffy as all I'll do is forward stuff ) if interested.
I promise it will be...well, at least bemusing.

[Thor665]

No one should vote for either Thor or Timeater - they should vote for Zdenek who is playing obv. scum and everyone is ignoring it.

[Thor665]

Your two comments are 'lynch him' and 'claim was probably crumbed by MoS for faking later'
You don't explain why you think MoS would do that, nor do you attempt to justify how the claim looks false when it actually doesn't. You also are not actually addressing all the people who are unvoting *because* of the claim, and, indeed, cheerlead other wagons from the sidelines all while still voting AV until I called you on it and then you quickly moved.
::shrug::

I stand by my stance.

[Thor665]

Careful BB, you're dangerously close to actually being pro-town and proactive there.

Wanna vote Zdenek and make the plunge?

[Thor665]

Just because you believe it doesn't make it true. I feel my points against you are solid and true and that they haven't been defeated and that your case on me is silly and false and has - derpy-doo.

[Thor665]

1. My analysis remains fine on your Feysal push.

2. I did not agree with your BBMolla read, and you have even had someone else (Reg I think) agree with me that you don't seem to remotely grok what I was saying.

3. I explained how I found your addressing to be, how would you say, BS from my end. You did not address my rebuttal except to call it BS again. I suppose we could just go in a circle like that, but it seems stupid. I have pointed out the awkwardness of your approach and do not feel you have shown a lack of awkwardness there and your fiery insistance that it is BS and must be ignored as opposed to explaining how what you did was functional scumhunting makes me think I was right.

Also your flip onto me when I pointed out your current hypocrisy all while also still leaving yourself a back door side step off me when you wish is also scummy.

[Thor665]

1. My point is based on an aspect of your meta we disagree on, not a misrep.

2. I said that I do think BBMolla's claim clears him.

3. I called you out immediately when you flopped onto me - it was an awkward transition and was blatantly omgus to me calling you out for ducking addressing the AV situation while sideline cheering other wagons.

4. The hypocrisy would be the hypocrisy of supporting wagons you weren't voting while not advancing wagons you were voting.

[Thor665]

4. There is no way that I am getting someone lynched while they're being defended by some of the people in this game. Sitting my vote on AVox or Tyene until the deadline would be complete unproductive.

Then why were you doing it?

Also, yes, on BB.

No, you had offered vague whines on the AV situation and did not address the issues at all and then started selling other wagons while sitting on him.

Okay, then you disagree with my call on Feysal's meta, even though I didn't really make one except maybe about how you addressed it.

[Thor665]

1. I feel like you're being disagreeable to score points not to showcase me being scummy here. I said it was about your meta, you said it was about Feysal's meta, I agreed with a slight adjustment and you then said 'oh, but you said it was about my meta!'. Okay - so then it was about your meta? I'm fine with that too. And my quoted comment *does* mention your meta, it's ruddy right there - use ctrl+F

2. But does it make it false? You did a narrow quote lacking context and suggested it proved I said something I didn't when...no, it didn't. In context it is clear I don't think that BBMolla is pulling that gambit, but I'm saying if he is the *only* time to discuss lynching him is once we wipe out the scumteam he is clearly not part of first. Derp. But, yeah, keep quoting only a part of it and not using the words around it.

3. You still have not explained why MoS would do that as a pseudo fakeclaim (I think you're even saying it's not faked) and it also looks like it stopped a scumkill, and you also didn't call out anyone who had been sold on it, and you also don't explain why you want to hunt a guy who is a PR and proven in your mind not on one of the scumteam which drastically reduces his chance to be scum. I certainly haven't heard the Stannis = AV case from you.

4. Uh huh - why did you suddenly snap on me when I pointed out your sideline selling? Because that was totally scummy of me, right?

[Thor665]

1. I honestly don't even know what you're accusing me of now, you're the one who said my issue was about Feysal's meta. I said it was about you.

2. Except that it does suggest that. 3229 explicitly calls him not scum, 3233 (which you're quoting a part of) is part of a theoretical discussion of why he supposedly should be dead if he was town but not if he was scum, and I still say he shouldn't be lynched.

3. How would establishing a claim of a roleblocker help him from a cop?

4. Good job ignoring how I have described how you ignored it - two off hand comments as your top wagon of the day shreds around you while you support alternate wagons does not an addressing make.

Also, while going back to research my quotes I realize I did call you super awkward already before today - so add that one to your long list of rants and lies to try to deal with my accusations via a smear campaign as opposed to, y'know, the truth and caring one whit what I'm saying except where you can try to twist it.

[Thor665]

Actually I'll withdraw the last point, I called someone else awkward for their flip about me while discussing Zdenek.

[Thor665]

It's only being incredibly difficult if Zdenek is really town.
Otherwise you're making things incredibly difficult for me.

[Thor665]

@Plum - my wagon feels scraggly, but the only 'non-rightous' vote I could even call out on it would be Timeater's - and, frankly, if his vote was non rightous he should be voting me as I'm probably the easier one to make happen if it's an attempt to save his backside/

Where do you see it being dirty?

[Thor665]

Why not? Don't you think I have as much chance to flip scum as Zdenek?

[Thor665]

But you see him able to get credit off a Zdenek scum flip?

[Thor665]

How are people not seeing Zdenekscum here? That back-and-forth with Thor was undoubtedly an intentional distraction/waste of our time.

[Thor665]

@Thor, regarding BBmola "claim", can you describe with your own words what did he claim so far?

He claimed some sort of role that was given awareness of the makeup of one of the scum teams.

Except it'd just be a weird play coming from Zdenek, whereas I know it's your style to do stuff like that.

Unlike my usual play of ignoring stuff?
That last interchange was initiated by Zdenek...so...?

[Thor665]

He is - Feysal gifted him his vote.

You should read me, Timeater, and Zdenek and then vote Zdenek.

[Thor665]

Whose role?

[Thor665]

Thanks to Magua I know it's Aegon - that's all I've got.

[Thor665]

Thanks to Magua I know it's Aegon - that's all I've got.

So why do you think that he softclaimed a PR?

Because people said he did and he didn't call them liars.
I'm crazy like that.

[Thor665]

Because your reads are wrong.

[Thor665]

This is a shocking revelation, I thought my reads were 100% right and the game was over until you said that.

It's a better standpoint then explaining inaction with that comment -so, huzzah.

[Thor665]

Do we have any examples to support a Timeater = Aegon scum though?

Because he really likely isn't Stannis.

[Thor665]

No. I've made it totally obvious what I am talking about and this is false. I cannot see this as anything other than a deliberate attempt to obfuscate the details. The topic numbered 1 in the discussion was explicitly about my interpretation of Feysal's meta. Check it:

1. My analysis remains fine on your Feysal push.

Then in 3402 somehow my meta becomes an issue:

1. My point is based on an aspect of your meta we disagree on, not a misrep.

I call you on it, and now you say it was somehow about my meta.

What the Smurf, die.

I thought we were talking about how our meta "clears" you as town when I've said that I don't think you're following that meta.
That is a discussion you and I had.

There was also an earlier discussion where I said I thought you were trying to mislynch Feysal - with this being multiball (as you love to point out) that actually means nothing to me that Feysal flipped scum because I still think you lynched him in a scummy way.

So which is the part your arguing, and what is your issue with it? Because all I see is you yelling at me about...something?

No it doesn't.

Yes it does.

BBMolla's actions don't make sense as scum though unless you think he's scum from [whichever team it was he claimed knowledge of] and he's betting the other team doesn't kill him because they want to leave him alive to help hunt down [whichever team he's giving info on].

So basically he's scum banking that the other scum team won't have enough paranoia to shoot him at some point?
Meh.

It says he doesn't make sense as scum, unless… I'm not say it's a case against him, but again it's pretty clear that you're not saying that you think he's clear.

If you squint and turn your head slightly, you might notice that what I'm saying is I *don't* believe that.
Though usually I say 'meh' after things I totally believe, so it's an easy mistake to make.

In this game there likelihood of there being investigative roles other than cop is really high, so he'd probably want a solid claim.

Note: other than a cop.

Again, you're accusing him of actually using a protective role on a town role and calling him scummy for it.
Pull the other one, it has bells on.

Zedenek is desperately full of Smurf, and yadda, yadda...you know the drill.

[Thor665]

Dodge, duck, dive, dip, and dodge.

[Thor665]

Thor is never a good lynch - otherwise he'd be lynched more often and win less often.

[Thor665]

And yet, oddly, my accuracy is better than random chance. Go figure.

[Thor665]

@Minimum - have you read any of the recent walls - and upon reading them found yourself saying 'yep, Thor is clearly lying as Zdenek proves!'

Because I'm not, and I'm showing his case to be invalid and weird...and no one is saying anything about it.

Because, y'know, *I'm* the scum...

[Thor665]

And when I flip town, what then? Hypothetically?

[Thor665]

Thor, your whole "I'm going to stir the Smurf" shtick got old 20 pages ago. In any contest between you and Zdenek you're getting lynched; the only reason you're behind compared to the Zdenek wagon is that we're all voting Timeater. Now can you do me a solid and stop making these pages physically painful for me to read?

I suppose I could stop offering my opinions and reads - but I'm pretty sure that's anti-town and would help lead to my mislynch. I'll agree my opinions and reads appear to be driving me towards my mislynch as well, but at least in this siyuation people will say I had "Smurf reads" not "was a lurksack" and also, as long as I fight and kick at least you'll have interesting wagon info as well as a town flip - so that's a bit more useful as well.

Also, currently the top three wagons are me, a townread, and Zdenek - so I'm not sure what you expect to hear from me. ::shrug::

@Minimum - Could you remind me why I'm obv. scum? Just a sentence or two would be fine (and preferred).

[Thor665]

He started the last one.
Conversely - what would be more pro town of me to do? Quote strip with the people who want to lynch me or Timeater? $5 says I get yelled at for that one too.

I can't get the case on me put into words.
I can't get people to look at my debates with Zdenek.
I can get people to tell me to stop acting up - because certainly me being ignored on two of my bigger gripes is what's helping to keep me so relaxed.
::shrug::

And I *have* offered other reads - I've weighed in on AV, and on BB, and on Minimum, and on Anxiety, and on and on - but people are choosing to overlook that because apparently I'm some sort of boogeyman who has to be talked down to this game and have everything ignored in order to keep me as a vaguely acceptable scum read with no actual case on him than 'lol, annoying quote walls'.

Am I wrong?

[Thor665]

Tell you what, Magua, just answer me this one - I'll try to be simple for you;

During the day this happened:

Zdenek voted AV.
AV claimed.
Zdenek addressed AV's claim and people unvoting either not at all or in a very minor way (feel free to weigh in on your call there)
Zdenek soft supported other wagons while still sitting on AV and not trying to get that wagon to go anywhere.
Thor called him on it.
Zdenek voted Thor with all burning rage.

Town/Town?

[Thor665]

Oh, and add in "Zdenek admitted he was just on Thor 'because' and would be hopping to Timeater.

[Thor665]

I'll agree it's bad play.
But it is helpful for scum aligned players and doesn't follow a town line of thought.
Ergo...?

[Thor665]

It was not on L-1 today to the best of my awareness.

I can show you where he was encouraging the wagon while not voting it and sitting on AV while it was at L-2, if that excites you.

[Thor665]

It was not on L-1 today to the best of my awareness.

I can show you where he was encouraging the wagon while not voting it and sitting on AV while it was at L-2, if that excites you.

Spoiler alert: It doesn't.

Then why ask me about that?

You asked me about a situation.
I responded that the situation didn't exist and even went further to show that the situation that *did* exist had already been brought up by me as a scumtell on Zdenek and asked for your take on that as a continuation of the conversation-to-clear-Zdenek that you apparently wanted to start.
.
What are you doing?

[Thor665]

Plum is likely town and doesn't need scumhunting today regardless.

Magua I had as town and will likely continue to do so at the moment, though I'd like an answer for my question to him since that was just fething weird.

Why?

[Thor665]

Why is Plum likely town?

And why did you have Magua as town?

1. Still scumhunting when a scum would be coasting until obligatory lynch tomorrow. Derp.

2. Beard.

I think Tyrene is likely town and agree with whoever said her sounding peeved was not really "tonally" unusual for her.

Still want to lynch Zdenek. Shock.

[Thor665]

@Reg - To respond to what you think are good points from Zdenek;

1. It's false logic. I asked him about that when he said the person he wanted to lynch was obv. not of the one faction and I said, well how is he obv. of the other faction then? Since I have not made such claims to expect me to then be obligated to make them is a false connection, it's a clearly different concept.

2. I...did explain this. You can say the explanation was dumb, but I did quite clearly explain it - even Zdenek thinks I explained it and called my reasoning scummy/dumb, so...?

And you find that more scummy than cheerleading? ::

[Thor665]

I'm intentionally not saying anything till I figure out the lay of the land after Minimum's call.

I support the idea of Zdenek death, natch.

[Thor665]

Maybe he should try a tree?

I still don't think an AV lynch is much worthwhile at this stage based on Minimum's thing.

Vote: Zdenek

Third verse, same as the first.

[Thor665]

Thor, please stop Smurfing around. It's cool that you want Zdenek death, but there's more scum than one and I expect you actually do something today, okay?

Something like try to get my biggest scum read who was one of the only real wagons yesterday lynched?
I appreciate you disagree with the read - but we're back to where we were yesterday where I point out that I'm offering other reads and participating in other conversations all while you gripe that I'm trying to lynch my biggest scum read. I suppose i could hop to a secondary or tertiary scumread for a lark - but what would that really gain me or the game at this stage?

[Thor665]

Do we have any examples to support a Timeater = Aegon scum though?

Because he really likely isn't Stannis.

Just out of bemusement I'm going to quote this for three reasons;

1. I was right and want to remind people that not all of Thor's reads this game are the Feysal read.

2. I was called scummy by Zdenek for bringing up this crazy challenge...that no one undertook and all were quiet about (except someone agreeing it was scummy I brought it up...)

3. It's a strong argument that if I'm scum than someone should probably be able to come up with a theory on me at this stage now that I've defended Feysal and also made this prescient town call on Timeater for town points.

So, y'know, stuff those pipes and smoke them.
Later come back and tell me how I'm somehow not helping the day. Fail to say what I'm supposed to do to help the day other than, apparently, never vote Zdenek. Rinse. Repeat.

[Thor665]

What will you do if Zdenek flips town?

Depends who dies in the night - short answer ignoring all variables by deciding Zdenek is flipped via a Modkill would probably be Kortul or Pandora. Long toss to Tyene...maybe, but I think that's more personal animosity tell than scum tell.

[Thor665]

Zdenek lists me as second most scummy (again) Votes me first (again)

@Tierce - you really think Salmance's play in Reverse is remotely applicable as a meta tell? He came in as a busted chump in Reverse thanks to Lyman.

[Thor665]

I think not voting your top suspect unless you openly admit they are never getting lynched is a scumtell. Besides, you are totally lynchable today. And besides, besides, even if you think that's his logic he didn't do it yesterday when his top suspect *was* totally lynchable.

I'll give you a point on the Salmence thing - meh, you can be town, go get some scumreads.

[Thor665]

I JUST CALLED HER TOWN GULL SMURF GOSH!

[Thor665]

Though this puts into certain perspective a lot of the issues with my slot - if you don't read half of what I say and assume I mean the opposite of what I say i do look pretty darn scummy.

[Thor665]

Unvote: Zdenek
Vote: Kortul

For doing the thing that apparently Tyrene thinks is a town tell because she's saucy.

[Thor665]

I was just in a game where she was capable of faking reads so I don't see why she would purposely avoid giving reads as scum.

I like that part of the post.

[Thor665]

It is amazing how many people are offering their thoughts and contributions to the game right now.

[Thor665]

I agree with the above.

[Thor665]

[Thor665]

-Can people stop calling Thor obvtown for making a

bad

case? I had a flash of "Is Thor too scummy to be scum?" paranoia, but according to CES, Thor has pulled the "tunnel aggressively on someone who looks innocent past the point when it's reasonable" card before as scum (ask him for the meta, since I don't know specifics).

Easy meta would be the aSoS game, where I did it for a scumbuddy (albeit, I think I admitted afterwards I hadn't realized it was a scumbuddy)

The more relevant question is if CES is saying I *don't* do that as town. Because, y'know, otherwise it's not a tell at all.

1) Rank the surviving players from town to scum. If that's too hard, general categories from town to scum will do.
2) Now will you explain why you suddenly found Feysal town on the day you replaced in, and resolutely defended him? And why the reason you'd used at the time consisted of "I don't think people would attack him like this if he was scum" in multiball?

1. I hate doing this, but here we go for kicks;

Happy side of Town

Plum's Yo Mamma
4nxi3ty
Tyene Sand
Magua
AurorusVox
BBmolla

Kinda want dead

Minimum
kortul
Zdenek
Pandora

I would say (derp) Plum, Tyene, and Magua are the 'standouts' on the top list.
I would say Zdenek and kind of a vague tie of Pandora and Kortul are the standouts on the bottom list.

I disagree that Zdenek has been under a lot of pressure unless we're only counting me and now Anxiety...seriously, half the case on me is that I'm *attacking* Zdenek, so...whassup?


2. I have explained it, you even quoted it. I'll admit I've never been at my best in multiball, but I do think the attack on him felt more shallow than sincere and said as much. That he flipped scum simply shifts the probability of what alignment the insincere sounding attackers are.

[Thor665]

FWIW, Thor's townread on me probably makes him scum.

For what it's worth it's only based off your claim and I've said as much and you didn't mention anything the first two times around.
Other than that I think you're playing pro-scum, if it makes you feel better.

[Thor665]

@Minimum - are you serious? It's a meta tell that is meaningless but there's scum intent behind it...so it's valid? That doesn't make any sense. Explain it further.

I'm Jonos Bracken. VT.

Zdenek is next.

[Thor665]

I reckon that's your value call, not one to outsource.

[Thor665]

I think you should claim.

I think if you believe that most people suspect you and that full claiming would help town by clearing you that you should claim.

I still think it's a personal value call and outsourcing it is wussy.

[Thor665]

Thor, how does our claiming help

you

? You've framed it in terms of what we should do if we "believe" that we're under a lot of suspicion and a fullclaim would clear us. But from your point of view, why do you want to hear a claim?

I suspect you.
You say your claim will help clear you.
Nuff said.

[Thor665]

The only reason to claim anything else is to give other players information that might help them evaluate our alignment.

[Thor665]

So

lynch Thor?

Or Zdenek.
Or, y'know do anything useful.

[Thor665]

Yeah, I should stop opposing that Minimum claim.

[Thor665]

The Hammer.

Also, if you don't do a call out...and I did suggest two options so that it looks like a reasonable (if derp) reply to me...::shrug::

But sarcasm (mostly) withdrawn.

[Thor665]

Actually, looking back, you were either responding to me or to both of us.

So sarcasm left in place.

[Thor665]

What time did you do those investigations, Minimum?

[Thor665]

@Plum - ask Nacho why he and I disagreeing on only one read makes me look so bad as to the cases I'm pushing? Because if you flip Zdenek and Anxiety...

[Thor665]

Thor, you're confusing me with someone who doesn't realize you're scum on your own merits. You're getting lynched.

Except I'm not scum, so you're making a derp claim here.

Again, he is calling me out for my reads. Besides not thinking I am scum (and shock!) and having flipped opinions on Zdenek and Anxiety...our reads are identical.
Discuss.

[Thor665]

Ah, so your read cannot bear the strain of a question.
Copy.

What is a Torturer and how does that effect Anxiety exactly?

[Thor665]

Vote: Anxiety

Sold.

Nacho's read on me still sucks.

[Thor665]

Unvote

@Minimum - your current issue seems to be 'speed' paired with an 'I agree the role doesn't seem to pan out' so...? What do you wish to discuss exactly?

[Thor665]

Unvote

@Minimum - your current issue seems to be 'speed' paired with an 'I agree the role doesn't seem to pan out' so...? What do you wish to discuss exactly?

Um...that last part is pretty much the opposite what I said, given that my post was mostly reasons in

support

of 4nxi3ty's claim (although given the game state, of course I'm not confident about it)...

...but you're still scum, so it's all good.

"Thor is being silly by suggesting I don't really support the role.
By the way, I don't really support the role.

Thor iz scumz!"

Totally accurate paraphrase.

[Thor665]

How am I mod confirmed? Because he's lying to me in my confirmation info.

[Thor665]

@Anx - what do you think of the role balance case on you? It looks quite telling.

[Thor665]

Except that I'm not.

Seriously - besides people disagreeing with me on the Zdenek read (and I'm still not sure why) what's the case on me? Oh, right, there isn't. So the case on Thor is that he would only be this obstinate and stubborn as scum...yeah...about that...

The person we're actually waiting for is Anxiety who is assuredly going to address your case on him and prove he shouldn't be lulzhammered.

[Thor665]

@Plums...whut?

[Thor665]

I don't think he is and have said as much.

So...whut?

[Thor665]

And before you quote it - yes, I did say he was town.
Then I changed my mind - you should look for the change of mind.
Hint: it comes with a vote.
Additional hint: 3855 might have a touch of sarcasm in it...as do all of my posts...I've been informed.

[Thor665]

I did it more because someone was whining about the wagon and wanted to make a stand.
Also I've challenged Anx to provide a response to the case, since he's ducking it.

Basically I'm just timing him - the longer it takes the louder I'll call him scummy. I'm a simple sort.

What do you think of Anx's point on Zdenek?

[Thor665]

anybody else notice how quiet zdenek has gone today compared to earlier?

Bashing Zdenek warms my heart.
Aren't you supposed to be addressing the role situation which is why you're being lynched?

it means nothing when talking about multiball
literally nothing

You'll have to get Nacho to remind me again why my expressed reads are so bad then.

[Thor665]

I actually don't think I do.
I personally think your case on me is laughable and totally surface driven with no motivation analysis and certainly no meta work.
So.

[Thor665]

You slipped a laughable reason - if it was just posturing I'd probably be less annoyed at the case.
If you'd like to re-phrase the case to 'gut' I'll drop my assault. But the current expressed attitude is three types of derp.

[Thor665]

So...just gonna keep dodging the discussion then?

[Thor665]

Not my intent. i want to convince you that his suspicion of me is poor and shouldn't be listened to.

[Thor665]

I don't need you to try to prove Zdenek is town as that is relatively meaningless to your case - proving that my push (which i have been called scummy for because it's so focused and distracting) is 'weak' would be exciting to me though.

[Thor665]

Even if you can't do that - what do you think of the people calling my 'weak' push distracting and dangerous tunneling?
I would presume you think their reasons for finding me scummy are silly, yeah?

[Thor665]

It is not an obvious straw man when his case on me at that point was 'Thor's reads are really bad and faked'
At that stage pointing out how close our reads are is very applicable and there is no straw man involved.

Feel free to tell me how I'm wrong.

[Thor665]

#3877 is spot on. Thor, would you say your ability to look reasonably okay coming out of this type of "what's your case; suspicion on me is poor" blather is meaningfully dependent on your alignment?

No.

You've seen me as town and scum, and I am quite comfortable with this bit of self-meta.

1. I attack people's cases on me.
2. I tend to focus on one suspect.

Currently I am doing both.
I am being called scummy for both. My hope is to at least use my skills at #1 to force people to open their eyes a bit at #2. Because I do think that Nacho calling my push "weak" is total hogwash, and even if he wants to believe that he ought to have some issue with all the people complaining about my constant push. Now, if he maybe means "weak" as in "strength of case" then I would suggest he doesn't know my meta for jack.

My core point being is that there isn't a case on me except calling me out for things that anyone with half a brain would tend to expect Thor to do as town *or* scum. Therefore the case is dumb and either needs something more, or people need to stop acting like I'm actually a top suspect as opposed to a PoE suspect.

[Thor665]

While we're at it - Kortul claimed to read up on Minimum, and then gave him advice for who to use his powers on today.

Just saying.

[Thor665]

What did I skim over?
Now I'm self conscious.

[Thor665]

Wow, I hope you are scum to help back up this playstyle.

[Thor665]

=====[]?

I'm taking this as admission that I didn't skim and you realized I was right.

[Thor665]

Vote: Kortul

Too excited to have his stamp on the wagon.

[Thor665]

I wouldn't mind hearing the case on me - I still dispute it's ever existed.
A link would be balls awesome, but a re-state is acceptable.

Conversely we can lynch Kortul.
I'll also support a Zedenek lynch, no shocker there.

[Thor665]

Vote: Kortul

Thor, do you think there's

no

case on you; or do you think there's a

bad

case on you? You seem to suggest both over the last ~10 posts of your ISO...

I wouldn't mind hearing the case on me - I still dispute it's ever existed.
A link would be balls awesome, but a re-state is acceptable.

The above doesn't seem to jive with this and this where you react against the cases put to you.

Read them again, shylock.

Here's a quote from the first link.

My core point being is that there isn't a case on me except calling me out for things that anyone with half a brain would tend to expect Thor to do as town *or* scum. Therefore the case is dumb and either needs something more, or people need to stop acting like I'm actually a top suspect as opposed to a PoE suspect.

And the second.

It is not an obvious straw man when his case on me at that point was 'Thor's reads are really bad and faked'
At that stage pointing out how close our reads are is very applicable and there is no straw man involved.

Feel free to tell me how I'm wrong.

Both of those are saying the same thing.
"The case on Thor doesn't exist except for saying that things Thor is doing are just...kinda inhherently bad...or are things Thor would do normally"

I think this is the "case"
Thor was wrong.
Thor is wrong.
Thor is pushing a case [insert name of whoever is saying it] doesn't agree with.
Thor's reads are bad...but I'll reverse from that stance...but they're bad.

I challenge you to find me any other case I've responded to.
I challenge you to call that a case.
I'll note in the first post you link I claim a case doesn't exist - and I still really believe that. What exists on me is noise and implied scum energy. People have been talking about me as scummy for so long they're all acting like there's a case on me when, in fact, there never was.

I would challenge everyone who is voting me to quote where they either presented their case on me - or to quote the case they agree with.

I think Zdenek is the only one who might be able to do it - and his case is that he didn't agree with how I was calling him scummy (because, y'know, everyone always agrees with the case people are calling them scummy over)

::wipes hands dismissively::

I'm here for some sort of vague PoE mental construct - and town needs to stop that.

[Thor665]

Unvote

@Zedenek - what are the specifics of the bvoight and Salamance conversations that sell you?

[Thor665]

If they were both the leading wagons though...seems like by definition he would have to talk about them, yeah?

[Thor665]

What are the other points?

[Thor665]

1. I actually thought Zdenek had a decent potential point and wanted to look at it.
2. I'm actually doubting on both right at the moment, at the very least Zdenek's move makes little sense unless out logic is that they're both the same team, which seems to suggest Stannis.

I don't care about your thoughts on my defense being too much at this stage. In fact the whole opening paragraph seems to have little, if anything, to do with the rest of the situation today.

[Thor665]

Theoretically if people had explained the case they could have shut me up.
Do you think there's a case?

[Thor665]

And yet, still plenty.

But, yeah, I have spent a lot of time pointing out how bad the scum vibe on me is and also pushing for my top scumspect - that is absolutely true.

[Thor665]

@Thor
Okay, but the word "except" implies a case exists, right? You've reacted against a case, however bad or terrible or "unlike a real case" it was. So when you're asking for a case to respond to, do you think you're going to get anything different from before? The people making the case obviously believe it (or are scum). In that respect, what's your read on Minimum?

Or is it just so that you can show to all of us who are not voting you that we shouldn't just hop on your wagon?

You structured this sucker immensely poorly, but I'll try to respond in order anyway.

1. I see where you're going with the 'except' but when I follow it with 'things Thor would do as town or scum' I'm offering a pretty clear opinion of how those things matter. I do note that you aren't willing to call it a case yourself. I would direct you to look at Magua's 'case' currently (lulz). That's the type of dreck it has been all game. it's not a case.

2. Really I'm asking for a case as a defensive maneuver, I thought that was fairly clear. Because I don't think there is a case I'm trying to force people to put one into words. The fact that no one has tried bothers me, as I would have liked to have seen a semi-town glimmer from them - but as a defensive move it has worked excellently because it's showing how derp this wagon is even though people keep pushing it.

3. I'm still on the town side for Minimum. We'll have to see how I feel about Zdenek and Kortul after my current discussion, but that's where I was at Day start and that's where I am till I say otherwise.

4. Yes, an additional part of the defense is to point out how cruddy the case is so no one sheeps it - that's always part of any defense.

What are the other points?

They're in the same post where this one was. I can go look for his posts that I was talking about later, but why don't you try reading?

Because I'm lazy, and also it's more interesting for me to hear your thoughts than to hear my own.

I'm just trying to figure why you think a soft bussing action at the stage where two Goon buddies were on the block equates to a clear Kortul - I've got to talk to you to get that insight, it doesn't help me to go form my own opinion on it because the actual Kortul opinion is less interesting than the Zdenek opinion.

[Thor665]

Hey.

Thor.

I'm going to vote you the next time you give a reply that includes "where's the case there's no case."

Deadly goddamn serious.

Are you going to call me a liar for saying it?
Because there is no case

But, seriously, unless you want to call me a liar and present the case that everyone has on me (which there isn't) then all I'm doing is saying the truth.
Also, this last spate - I was ruddy *asked* about my opinions on the lack of a case...so....yeah, the hell?

or Plum/Nacho, who considered Thor scum?

This is calling me town (or at least 'not scum with Kortul').
Discuss.

And if you talk about logic, look at the night kills. If i were scum, why would i want Tyene dead, who was one of the few who sad nothing bad about me, or

Plum/Nacho

, who considered Thor scum? Killing someone like Pandora or Av, who are not likely to be lynched and who suspected me would be more logical.

Why do you concentrate on Tyene, specifically, and

ignore Plums Yo Momma

?

[Thor665]

Discuss.

Hmm? This is definitely not calling you town (unless you asked those who believe that i am scum). I think that you are scummy (yet you managed to surprise me with unvote), and Plum/Nacho thought that you are scum. You can figure out the rest.[/quote]
Nope, I'm kinda dumb, you'll need to help me with this.

You wouldn't, as scum, have killed Plums - because then you could get Thor lynched.
That's kind of a rathe rimplicit 'Thor is a mislynch/not on my theory team' comment.
How am I getting that wrong - it seems really obvious to me.

[Thor665]

Hmm? This is definitely not calling you town (unless you asked those who believe that i am scum). I think that you are scummy (yet you managed to surprise me with unvote), and Plum/Nacho thought that you are scum. You can figure out the rest.

Nope, I'm kinda dumb, you'll need to help me with this.

You wouldn't, as scum, have killed Plums - because then you could get Thor lynched.
That's kind of a rathe rimplicit 'Thor is a mislynch/not on my theory team' comment.
How am I getting that wrong - it seems really obvious to me.

[Thor665]

And Magua attack on my request to Minimum is ridiculous. If you are town, you already know the result. And if you talk about logic, look at the night kills. If i were scum, why would i want Tyene dead, who was one of the few who sad nothing bad about me, or Plum/Nacho, who considered Thor scum? Killing someone like Pandora or Av, who are not likely to be lynched and who suspected me would be more logical.

It still looks like calling me town or not scum with you to me.

You explain why the Tyrene kill wouldn't make sense coming from scum you, okay.
You then explain why the the Plums kill wouldn't make sense - and the answer is 'because I could have used him to help lynch Thor'

I mean, why does that prove you wouldn't kill Plums unless scum you would benefit from Thor being dead?
To benefit from me being dead I have to be;
1. Town
2. Not your scumbuddy.

This makes perfect sense to me.
What am I missing again?
I mean, I understand, obviously, you are not scum, and all of this was just theory to explain how if you *were* scum why you wouldn't do either kill. I'm just curious why theory scum you would benefit from a Thor kill - that's all I'm asking.

[Thor665]

@Kortul - so to your mind I'm obv. town?