Team Mafia 2018: White Flag — Day Six

[Ranmaru]

Fair enough.

[Ranmaru]

LQ: I have questioned you quite a bit on those points and I have received many reples. They don't satisfy as a response. I'm not interested in following up anymore. I want you to explain your missing Lycanfire read. Saying "I'm going to see what happens" doesn't mean it's the truth and along with your silence on my push at that time, it shows a lot. The time I try to re-evaluate you use that to work against me. I did look through your ISO, actually. I looked for Postie and Lycanfire. Didn't find any sign of town reading Postie, but a null. (Now, if you had reasoning that would imply townie actions of Postie, I could reconsider) So here's the big question: From your 315 and your implied town read you state is a tr, why did that change to null in your #999? (Originally #599)

[Ranmaru]

Gamma

: Can you go more into the games you have played with LQ. Talk to me, has his progression been this bad as both alignments? What do you think of my points, having played with LQ a few times.

[Ranmaru]

Alright, thank you. Can anyone answer my question though, that has experience with both scum or town?

[Ranmaru]

scum or town LQ I mean to say.

[Ranmaru]

Why don't you explicitly say that you town read Postie instead of saying 'not scum'? Usually, scum fake reads, to fit in with the town. Your actions line up with this. I don't deny that mistakes can come from town, but they can also come from scum. I am very detail oriented, I look at all the small things, I ask about everything. I weigh everything, and ask myself the town motivation and scum motivation. LQ Scum motivation: Avoid town screen wagon to keep hands clean, drop reads without much reasoning to hide actual reasoning for dropping it, discredit town read players when given the chance (like your push on myself, then Davsto). LQ Town motivation: Do weird stuff because that's what you always do and you are too stubborn to change it. This is why I am asking others that have played with both of your alignments to comment to help my read. At the moment I don't trust your answers anymore. Also, I don't use Occam's Razor. Anyway, it doesn't seem like to me, that you are trying to be accurate with who is scum. You are just floating around, reacting. That's it. Then when I expect a response, you are frozen in time, especially when your reads on Shea and Lycan were weak. You had no intentions of strengthening those reads. To me, this means #267 was all for show. So the question is, do you care about getting your reads right, and if so, how are you doing that? Also, I want your full reads list. I asked for it, you never gave one.

[Ranmaru]

I honestly cannot find a good reason for your motivation as town, because you do the opposite thing and there is inconsistency. (For example, you FOS Lycan and Shea, but you drop those and have weak reasons for them the next day, and you do nothing to strengthen them when you have the opportunity to) So you do see me see an inconsistency and expect me to believe you dropped it easily due to Occamz Razor, and then you go back and look at Lycan's ISO and say it's bleeding town. You didn't answer my question. Do you care about getting your reads right, and if so, how are you doing that? Tell me what pro-town things you have done and tell me how it has helped town. Tell me the possible town motivation is that I do not see. My reasoning for you staying off is because scum don't want to be on a wagon and get flack for it. (This is something you notice as you play as scum, you don't actually want to get your hands dirty, that was what I meant) I'm obviously town and trying to find actual scum. That is why I have not been wagoned. Davsto, probably because they feel he is town and have no reason to scum read him, but not as townie as me. I didn't look deeply into that, as I'm not as interested in that. The incentive to give a reads list is that it shows you are transparent and honest about the information you give to town. Why don't you want to give a reads list?

[Ranmaru]

I'm going to sleep now. Good night.

[Ranmaru]

Postie, there are still other people we can get more content from, like Action Dan, Marquis, and Lycanfire.

[Ranmaru]

Lycanfire, you had LQ as a scum read Day 1. When and why did that change?

[Ranmaru]

Action Dan, how is that catch up going?

[Ranmaru]

Lycanfire

: Meta. Gamma as scum doesn't really have interest in posting, from what I have seen. Gamma here has been saying sensible things and putting in work. His paranoia of me earlier Day 2 was also townie, not something I'd expect from scum him. Earlier you said that my conclusion on Shea was wrong (SvS) so I want to know, how did that conclusion affect your read on Shea and why?

[Ranmaru]

NSG

: I want you to place a vote soon. I know you want to hold it, but we need a paper trail from you. Talk to me about your top 3 scum picks now.

[Ranmaru]

Just post what reads and conclusions you have when you are ready.

[Ranmaru]

I want you to look into NSG and tell me what you think.

[Ranmaru]

I actually like LQ's #1818. In fact, I like that post the

most

out of his whole play, and agree with some of it. I'm starting to think it's possibly [Eddie, Marquis, North].

Unvote

[Ranmaru]

NSG's vote [#584] on Tchill was weak, and she lurked through the rest of the day. She admitted to putting the game on the back burner but she didn't really give a reason. She had no reason to put it on the back burner, no pressure. Then in her #1583 she states she is holding her vote since she realizes she didn't think too deeply on her T-chill vote. Which shows she has guilt about her vote, which seems suspicious to me. I think she is scum because she has no pro-town motivation to lurk.

Vote: Northsidegal

[Eddie > Marquis > NSG > AD | Dunn | Davsto > LQ > Lycan > CES > Shea > Postie > Gamma > Ranmaru]

[Ranmaru]

LQ, it's a good question to ask since you are accusing him of only caring about his image, so you should back it up. I don't see it.

[Ranmaru]

Gamma is still town.

[Ranmaru]

Trust me, he's improving. He's town though. I'll let him respond before I comment further.

[Ranmaru]

NSG

: I want you to respond to my #1821.

[Ranmaru]

Please snip or spoiler those quotes man, I want you to try to remember big quotes like that make people skim and we don't want skimming.

[Ranmaru]

There was no deeper meaning. I felt there was a higher chance of LQ and Eddie being scum together, while I had Marquis as a scum read on the back burner, as I wasn't too confident in it. I'd like for you to look into NSG.

[Ranmaru]

No, that was to Lycanfire. Yet I'd like for you and Lycanfire to ISO her and look at my #1821, then tell me what you think.

[Ranmaru]

Lycanfire

: Gamma brings up a good point. You did say you wouldn't run with teams originally, so I'm wondering why that changed for you. Talk to me more about your CES read.

[Ranmaru]

LQ

: Why does it mean Gamma scum over Town Gamma to you? We also need to see Action Dan, NSG, and Marquis before we end the day. After that, I'm fine.

[Ranmaru]

I disagree, and so it doesn't. Note that she doesn't want to lynch Eddie yet she's wishy washy on it. If a person isn't being pressured, what motivation do they have to avoid the thread? (Wagons may be one answer, they don't care to help find scum is another)

[Ranmaru]

RC

: I pushed LQ because he was my top scumread at the time. I'm asking for input from players that have promised content [Marquis] or have been prodded [Action Dan]. We have one person not voting, they need to vote before the day ends [NSG]. Please tell me how waiting for them is bad. Also go into your Gamma read please.

[Ranmaru]

NSG

: Where are you at? I want you to respond to my #1821. I also want a vote from you, and top 3 scum reads.

[Ranmaru]

On [Eddie, Marquis, NSG] team, I want to mention that Marquis's #24 is weird and feels like he voted North to distance.

[Ranmaru]

I think that is the team, and when I say that, I'm saying 'related to this team'. It's more of an interaction between Marquis and North, and if Eddie flips scum I want people to keep that post in mind so it helps their reads tomorrow. I've already explained why I think NSG may be scum with him.

[Ranmaru]

Just waiting for Marquis, NSG, and ActionDan. I am ready to end the day after that. [All who have been prodded, one is not voting]

[Ranmaru]

Shea

: AD I had there for giving out a few town leans without really doing as much over time went on. I have Dunn as null, though. Dunn's been voting though, NSG has been holding her vote and has been posting around in other games and leaving this game in the back burner. I feel like since she saw people give her lock town reads she didn't feel the need to continue posting or trying as much. I am interested in why you scumread Dunn.

[Ranmaru]

I just want to see NSG and Action Dan check in and we should be good to end the day.

[Ranmaru]

Shea

: I just don't see any scum intent from Dunnstrals posts. I wouldn't bat an eye at his lynch as much as my town reads. Earlier on I had AD as 'I need more from him' and he hasn't really given me much more then just his initial impressions of the Eddie / LQ wagons. It just feels like AD is trying to be under the radar. Yet Dunn is present, just not doing anything while present.

[Ranmaru]

NSG

: I want you to respond to my #1821. Please tell me your top 3 scum reads, and top 3 town reads. (With reasoning)

I'm going to be driving home from work. Will post more when I get home.

[Ranmaru]

fwiw I don't think your logic in 1821 follows at all.

if anything the fact that they think they made the wrong decision on tchill because they didn't think enough implies towniness.

My concern is mostly the drop off. It's fine if she didn't think of it at first, but I would hope she'd at least give scum reads in place of her holding her vote. I still want her response. How are you reading NSG right now?

[Ranmaru]

Yes, please get any quick thoughts you can muster.

[Ranmaru]

How do you feel about the Eddie wagon, the Marquis wagon, and the LQ wagon?

[Ranmaru]

still confident in ranmaru being town, that read started from sauce and ranmaru has done a very good job of being an active voice and actually questioning people and getting people's thoughts out there, this is pretty much a unanimous townread from my team

So did your team change it's read on me?

[Ranmaru]

i'm pretty sure that my team and postie's team are on the same wavelength when it comes to ran's slot. ran, what's a50 interested in specifically? because i'd be willing to hear it out.

more specific responses incoming.

[Ranmaru]

NSG, do you lurk often regardless of alignment? Just wondering.

[Ranmaru]

Postie, has RC made that reads list yet? I also do want him to respond to my response to him. Why does he scumread Gamma? He's town.

[Ranmaru]

NSG, who are your top 3 scum reads right now? Just wondering. Are you still hesitant to place down a vote? Why or why not?

[Ranmaru]

as for why i've been gone i don't really have an answer, every time i go to start a post i either don't or i start something and then delete it for being too bad

Can you go more into this? I've felt this way before but only as scum. Has this been a recurring problem in mafia for you? What is your read on Postie, Gamma, and Davsto?

[Ranmaru]

Anything in particular that discouraged you from posting? Your posts in the beginning seemed fine and got you town reads. (Can you go into the reasons for your reads)

[Ranmaru]

Also still interested in KMD's notes.

[Ranmaru]

I value his feedback, so I want to hear him.

[Ranmaru]

my team always had you as town, if you're referring to that one "wavelength" thing i said then that was a misunderstanding that got cleared up pretty quickly.

I have no other questions besides this: Can you explain the misunderstanding? I don't remember you saying anything about a misunderstanding. Go more into this.

[Ranmaru]

It just seemed like your team agreed with RC. (After postie mentioned RC's scum-read on me) Alright then.

[Ranmaru]

Alright. Please get to me about the reasoning for some of your reads then.

[Ranmaru]

Cheeky said the same thing. Yet I still was concerned about her disappearance. Which reminds me, where did RC get the idea that Cheeky supported the lynch???

[Ranmaru]

*On Screen play.

[Ranmaru]

How does that make you read Postie and Davsto?

[Ranmaru]

Nevermind, you state that at the bottom. Just tell me who your top 3 scum reads are. I'll make a post later tonight.

[Ranmaru]

Can you go into the reasoning of why you town read Postie and Davsto?

[Ranmaru]

not entirely sure, but i don't think he actually believed in the eddie wagon in the first place.

Can you quote where you got that feeling?

[Ranmaru]

NSG, since you townread me, how do you feel about Eddie's attack on me? I'm at work, but I'll go more in depth later on tonight.

[Ranmaru]

It tells us about Marquis and NSG as well.

[Ranmaru]

Yeah give me a minute

[Ranmaru]

Shea

:

ran, the concise version of my response to your 1631 is that your pool is

very

good, we disagree about your mastina point, and in general you had it right when it came to the scum preferences.

i think i'm less okay with an eddie lynch today, just because i'd like to lynch elsewhere.

@postie, if you're interested i was townreading eddie earlier on for this:

by the way, anyone else feel like 179 is a really weird thought? it's hard to put into words – it kind of feels like a pointless thing to say / comment on, maybe.

I was wondering who else was going to pick up on that.

the fact that he noticed this, didn't make a post about it and then made this comment about it just instinctually doesn't feel like the kind of thing scum would even think to fake. granted, there's always the chance that it wasn't faked and eddie could still be scum – scum still notice inconsistencies or a really weird tone even if they know that someone is town (and perhaps especially if they know that it's coming from their buddy). there's also the chance that i'm underselling eddie's scumgame, which i'm unfamiliar with.

on a reread of his iso perhaps this is too minor to justify more than a slight townlean, but i'm still not convinced on him being scum and i still think there are far more likely scum candidates.

I think it shows that she wasn't willing to commit to it without a genuine reason. She's been saying that she doesn't want Eddie because she's interested in other directions, but she doesn't vote, nor does she actually seem that interested in other directions to really disagree with the Eddie wagon. Note that in early game she gave Eddie a town read for a simple thing, and states she thinks he is less likely to be scum but doesn't re-evaluate this read on him. I think it implicates Scum NSG upon Scum Eddie.

[Ranmaru]

LQ

:

The Thing Mafia
Flavorless Mafia

[Ranmaru]

LQ

: That's the most recent. Third most recent before that. Mafia on the Run You can see them all on my Wiki.

NSG

: Yes, especially if Eddie flips scum. You said you had Eddie as a town read earlier, when and why did that change to you not actually having a read on him?

[Ranmaru]

Did you ever state this? Also can you go more into me pulling something from a long time ago, what is the purpose of you saying that?

[Ranmaru]

Around here is #1365 that I want your thoughts on since you town read me.

[Ranmaru]

Yes. I asked you oringally to tell me your thoughts on Eddie's push on me since you town read me.

[Ranmaru]

How does that affect your read on Eddie?

[Ranmaru]

Votecount 2.14

EddieFenix(6)

~ Postie, Thestatusquo, Davsto, Cogito Ergo Sum, Lycanfire, LicketyQuickety

Dunnstral(3)

~ ActionDan, Gamma Emerald, northsidegal

Marquis(2)

~ EddieFenix, Dunnstral

northsidegal(1)

~ Ranmaru

LicketyQuickety(1)

~ Marquis


Not Voting (0):

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 2 deadline is in (expired on 2018-02-18 19:30:00)

FLAVOR

This is an automated vote count generated by a tool written by MathBlade. It goes much smoother with exact votes but will try to detect bold votes and misspellings. If you have issues during this beta, please get MathBlade.

Performed 83 calls in 29 seconds. With an average of 0.354759036144578 seconds per call.

[Ranmaru]

What's your read on Marquis? Also since #1365 gives you a slight scum lean, would you be comfortable voting Eddie or no?

[Ranmaru]

Since when were you willing to vote eddie? Also, can you go into why you town lean Marquis?

[Ranmaru]

Votecount 2.14

EddieFenix(6)

~ Postie, Thestatusquo, Davsto, Cogito Ergo Sum, Lycanfire, LicketyQuickety

Dunnstral(3)

~ ActionDan, Gamma Emerald, northsidegal

Marquis(2)

~ EddieFenix, Dunnstral

northsidegal(1)

~ Ranmaru

LicketyQuickety(1)

~ Marquis


Not Voting (0):

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 2 deadline is in (expired on 2018-02-18 19:30:00)

FLAVOR

This is an automated vote count generated by a tool written by MathBlade. It goes much smoother with exact votes but will try to detect bold votes and misspellings. If you have issues during this beta, please get MathBlade.

Performed 83 calls in 29 seconds. With an average of 0.354759036144578 seconds per call.

[Ranmaru]

Gamma's town. Although would like you to explain Dunn's thought process coming to you as town.

[Ranmaru]

I'm telling you Gamma's town. That's it. Now can you answer my question? (Also, you can talk about it as much as you want, I'm still going to tell you Gamma's town)

[Ranmaru]

Answer my question first, and I'll answer. It's a two way street here.

[Ranmaru]

I'm clocking out from work now. Once I get home I'll give my final reads and hammer Eddie.

[Ranmaru]

Thank you, and I'll consider that in my reads. I'm not willing to give him a town read just from that yet. I need a little more from him. I don't know whether he'd do the same as scum, though. I will say that, it might make more sense to not try as much as town, since as scum there is more responsibility. But, from his voting patterns so far, I am liking him, especially if Eddie and Marquis are both scum. A50 seems to know him, he says he's either town doing always lurking or, is scum with CES. I'll answer your question in my reads list. I suggest anyone else to take this time to put out any last words before night fall. I'll take a bit to write up the reads list though.

[Ranmaru]

NSG

: While I'm at it, can you tell me if KMD has read the game over and said anything? I am also interested in you answering LQ's questions.

[Ranmaru]

What is your read on Action Dan (with reasoning).

[Ranmaru]

====
Reads
====

----

Town

----

Gamma: I see Gamma making sense and being genuine in his pushes. I understand his feelings on Marquis feeling scummier than Eddie (sort of) in that Marquis's EOD posting was not good at all. I can understand how my shift from that may have made him paranoid. Marquis was my only lead at the beginning of Day 2, yet I was going to re-read. Then Day 2 happened and I just re-evaluated from things happening in the present. Him re-considering as I talked to him felt townie too. That's without the meta. With meta, I again, feel he's been the towniest I've ever seen him, and seems like his play from The Thing Mafia (which I already linked to LQ). Again, he's a player that plays by the book, but is improving, and can be stubborn at times. His forced reaction seems to be what I would expect from Gamma, especially if someone insults (or he feels they have insulted) his experience. Yet for him, it actually makes sense, as opposed to Eddie who comes with a forced tone out of no where. LQ, it seems like it might also be an LQ thing. I realize by now, he's my only strong town read. The only thing I don't get is his Eddie town read he had. That's all though.

Shea: I liked his presence in Day 1 overall. Postie's Case on Eddie made it easy for anyone to not really have to be as present during Day 2, so it makes my read on Shea harder, but in general, I have no problems and he responded to my points. Slight town.

CES: I like his push on Marquis and can see townie re-evaluation on Postie. If NSG is scum I'd also think this implies CES town.

Postie: This mirror's her play in Family Mafia. The only thing I note is that she had a weak read on Eddie, and then conf-biased herself into it. That to me does seem more townie. If Eddie flips scum, I don't think Postie would have pushed so hard, while having RC back it up pretty hard.

Lycan: At first, Lycan felt like he wasn't really pushing his scum reads much when he stated he wanted people to join his CES wagon. I liked his responses to my accusations on him, and feel like it spurred much more content from him and engagement. Slight town.

LQ: Overall, he's been a bit illogical, yes. I have had major problems with him. We are off and on. I did like his reads list in his #1818. Him stating that he's only doing that shows that he doesn't want to do it, and finds his own process better (which I still disagree with). He doesn't like process either. I did feel he had some good insights and then seemed to drop them for occamz razor. Then after I see him post his reads list, I see him pushing Gamma which feels silly. I'm leaning slight misguided town. A50 reads him as town.

----

Null

----

Dunnstral: The only thing I get is null. I do like his votes, on Marquis, and his push on T-chill did seem like he had conviction for it. He has been present, and voting, but that's about it. Not seeing any scum intent from him, though. A50 does have him in the scum pool, which is the only thing I have in the back of my mind to keep in mind when reading Dunnstral. An important post I think, is his #2034, which states he isn't invested. The good thing to keep in mind is, that even though he isn't invested, he's still present.

Davsto: I feel like his reads list is overall, surface level. He's still actually in process of ISO'ing Gamma. WGEURTZ, I don't get any vibes from. This is one of those things I can agree with LQ on. (The flatness) It's kind of an issue if Davsto is consistent with that. I also generally don't like how he formats his posts, it makes it hard to parse. LQ's post on him is a good point: #1730 (Second paragraph, first sentence) I think I null read him. I know that he played devil's advocate with Postie on the Eddie case, which seemed townie. Then he makes #1427, agreeing to it. Again, I can't really get too much vibes either way. I keep trying to get a read on him and it's difficult for me.

----

Scum

----

Action Dan: It seemed he tried to play more of a role during Day 1 then Day 2. He states that for him, this game is a town hunt since he's having trouble gaining scum reads. #1147 Yet, some of his town reads aren't that solid. I also get the feeling Action Dan is trying to stay under the radar, especially during Day 2. His #1698 felt weird, timing wise. This was after I voted Eddie, and Eddie had 5 votes at the time. Dan had wanted to give his snap feelings of the dueling wagons, and not that much else. Two things to note: In Political Corruption Mafia, he was more present then he was here, yet in our hydra game together, he was busy and I was the person mostly posting. (Yet, I had it down on lock) I would understand if he was really busy, but the comparison of presence between Day 1 and Day 2, is pretty visible. I think it's more likely he's scum who is having trouble scum reading town players and has to resort to 'town lists' and note that he did not give out a full reads list. If I'm dead I want people to force him to a reads list.

NSG: I think she's scum due to fence sitting, lacking presence, and not committing to the Eddie wagon without a stance on it. She states her lack of motivation was due to having bad posts, but I never got that feeling, and she was never pressured. I certainly think that she is more likely scum who actually lost interest in keeping up. She posts in other games and seems to have more energy for those and leaves this in the back burner. She also hasn't seemed to re-evaluate her CES read, she seems to be more harping on him and trying to find anything she can on him rather then actually try to determine his alignment. #1963

Marquis: Marquis's #24 is weird and feels like he voted North to distance. Momo's only take on the game is that Marquis is %100 scum. His overall game besides that, is gets wagoned, and lurks it out and states being sick and other things. In the early game he mentions NSG being try hard scum, but doesn't really follow up with it. Marquis doesn't really give much game related reads, but mentions he doesn't know how to feel about Postie or NSG because it has been so long. #457 This is since his #48, which mentions the scum vibes of NSG against Postie's townvibes. Page 2, and then Page 18/19. Now, I would think that as scum, Marquis would not vote in an awkward way to weaken his position. His position was weakened to vote NSG, which seems like a jumpy reaction. Sometimes as scum, when you feel your scum mates messed up, it's more obvious to you and surreal, that you react to it in an informed manner as opposed to ignorant townies. This lines up with NSG's suspicious play. Also note that Marquis never followed up with Action Dan in his #58. (Nor has Action Dan asked for a response)

Eddie: I think it's pretty clear that Eddie's play has been a big contrast from D1 to D2. His tone changed, from silly to malevolent. If he were town and truly believed in myself (and Marquis) being scum, he'd push it harder, and Mastina would push it harder as well. This is much different then T-chill, who swapped with Screenplay to salvage his slot. I see now that it can be possible town try to salvage their own slots. Yet, Eddie is letting himself die here. I considered the fact that he may have been bussed, and almost changed my reads until seeing how recent events played out. I see no other reason for him to lay down as town but to eat a mislynch to reveal possible scum. His push on me was incomplete, and he felt no motivation to continue that push. If he truly believed I was scum, he'd have to push it harder, since this is white flag. We can't win unless we push what we believe.

[Ranmaru]

[Eddie > Marquis > NSG > AD | Davsto > Dunnstral | LQ > Lycan > Postie > CES > Shea > Gamma > Ranmaru]

Hammer vote incoming in my next post.

[Ranmaru]

Unvote; Vote: Eddie

[Ranmaru]

Now for future days, and you guys do not have consensus and are having trouble coming to a consensus, I want you all to make a bottom four. (Meaning, your top 4 players you'd be fine with lynching) Then, someone would make a tally off all of the lists, and come up with the combined tally. I don't think you guys will have that problem, but just in case, this can help with that.

[Ranmaru]

Vote: Northsidegal

NSG: Who's scum to you today? Please post KMD's notes.
Gamma: Who's scum to you today? Read on NSG? Did you ever do that ISO on her?
LQ: Who's scum to you today? Read on NSG?
Shea: What direction are thinking of going today?

I'm not that solid today. I'm going to re-read after work.

[Ranmaru]

You know what I think Dunn might just be that stupid but like
I still suspect him even without that part of things

Gamma, can you go more into this? Why do you still suspect him if you think he's being silly overall? Also, can you tell me why a dichotomy yesterday was bad?

[Ranmaru]

LQ

: Only scum read at the moment, currently re-evaluating everyone else. Scum for fencesitting, lacking presence, and not committing to Eddie wagon without a stance on it. Why did you ask me for reasoning on Gamma!town without meta in your #2059, when you expect people to read your wiki and understand your play and you ask for meta on myself? What's your read on NSG (with reasoning).

[Ranmaru]

Lycanfire: How are your reads looking like today?
Davsto: Same to you.

Pedit: Yeah same, I'll give mine when done with re-reading. Off to work now.

[Ranmaru]

LQ, just answer the question so he can answer your question so there is less noise in between posts. Please don't answer with another question, unless you answer it in the same post. That way you save posts.

Also on Gamma Town Meta, I've went over it before but I can't get into that right now, I'm at work. I'm just going to post small posts.

[Ranmaru]

You need to give your case on why you believe Gamma is scum before hand since Burden of Proof is on you. Afterwords I can give you a brief explanation of why I believe Gamma is town.

[Ranmaru]

No.

[Ranmaru]

Still no.

[Ranmaru]

You scumread a person, you present your case. Simple as that. If you need to check why I town read Gamma, you can check my posts like you always ask me to. I'm not going to go back and forth on this point. After you present your case, I'll reasonably fulfill your request. Not before.

[Ranmaru]

LQ can you please re-phrase that. What does that mean?

[Ranmaru]

LQ, can you re-phrase that. You need to improve on your communication.

[Ranmaru]

You say your read is contingent on mine, what does that mean exactly?

[Ranmaru]

RC's problem with me was that I was pushing counter wagons to his wagon, and stalling it for input from others that have not even checked in. He said if Eddie was scum, that I would scum. Now, Eddie flipped town. Where does that leave you? LQ, what is your read independent of RC's read? Then weigh that together.

[Ranmaru]

Here's what I can do: After you give your case on Gamma, I can explain my Gamma Town Read, and link you to the games I have played with him. That's it. When I reference his meta, I'm talking about games I have played with him. (Hint: I've already referenced two of them)

Did you read the games you asked for, LQ? What did you gain from reading those games?

[Ranmaru]

No. Burden of proof is on you. Also you can just check my reads list in my ISO.

[Ranmaru]

I've already answered your meta question, so you have already seen it. #2068

Now explain your Gamma Scum read.

[Ranmaru]

This I can answer to, but it'll have to wait until after work.

[Ranmaru]

CES

: Can I get two more scum picks for today? Have you re-evaluated your reads? Can you explain your read on Davsto?

[Ranmaru]

Like I said, I'll show you what I mean later. I think you are town, and think this is not helping us find actual scum. You are just being distracting right now. Reason for not casing Gamma as town: I didn't need to. I've already explained the gist. If you really need me to explain (which you have already asked questions about, and I have said I will get back to you on that) I shall. Your case isn't really a case. Also, don't spam. You are being anti-town.

[Ranmaru]

I just explained it to you, you are just not listening. I said I would explain it after work, so you'll have to wait. You asked me for scum games. What did you learn from them? What is your overall read of my play?

[Ranmaru]

Answer my question.

[Ranmaru]

You could take the time to answer while I'm working. Anyway, I'm out at 10PM EST. I'll post later tonight. You'll see me around 1am-3am EST. Now, answer the question. Ciao.

[Ranmaru]

Cross-Over Mafia
Family Mafia
Penguin Mafia Redux
Thing Mafia

Look at SCUMMY Gamma: [#1443]

He replaces in and hops on the "Your null reads ARE BAD Ranmaru" and I"m like hold on, that's scum. *votes* I ask him why he isn't voting me if he suspects me. He votes me in his #1569 Gamma was being reactive, he had no drive to find scum. His tone was much different than here. In his #1573 he seemed cold, emotionless. Alll in all, he came in with a forced stance on me as he replaced in without trying to sort me, he just dug his heels in on me, and he kept flip flopping saying Nacho was lyncher (or Elyse) to create false connections. In Penguin Mafia Gamma was active, but wasn't scum hunting as much. I asked for reads and he didn't have much. [#413] Minimal notes at this point in time: #709 Plays tactically with his pagetop #1000 This is his readslist: readslist This seems different from here, he's more jokey and makes less sense. He's been doing ISO's and putting in effort to find scum.

In Cross-over Mafia, Gamma didn't do a damn thing. He lurked, as an Independent Role. He had no interest in keeping up. Frozenflame Vote he beetlejuices as people pressure him out of his inactivity, he omgus votes FrozenFlame. That is not what he is doing here either. Quote from Gamma to me: "@EGW I don't have solid reads on everyone, maybe I could if I went back through but I kinda don't want to." Boom. So to me, this game, looks much better than any Gamma I have seen in the past, and he's making sensible posts. You state that I should see that he's just copying his normal townie meta, but I haven't seen his extensive townie meta, I've seen his scum and independent play, and this does not look like it at all.


#1285 This seems sensible, coming from a pro-town mindset. He's curious about why MOI wouldn't consider Andrius's wall. When you are curious about something, it may be more likely you are town who is trying to gamesolve, as oppose to just discrediting as scum. #1471 More yelling from Gamma, which shows it's Null. #4387 Mistake that cost Gamma/Transcend slot their life. (Due to hydra dissonance, funnily enough my hydra was doing hydra dis on purpose) More townie analysis from Gamma: #1021

---

Gamma sees me vote you over Marquis, and he wonders why I am moving to you instead of staying there, since he recently had a scumread on him as well. #1368 Yes, Gamma re-evaluating gives him townie points. It shows he isn't being stubborn. Me saying that 'this is the towniest I have ever seen him' should be clear to you now that I have shown you the examples from which I have experienced Gamma's play. Here, compared to all that, it's much better in my eyes, which is why I keep stating he's town. I generally don't case my town reads. This posts seem by the book to me: #78 #1149 #1231 This post: #647 is the one I refer to when I say that Gamma's 'forced' reactions seem to be what I would expect of him. #881 I made the distinction between Eddie and Gamma because knowing Gamma, his reaction seems normal for him, as opposed to Eddie, who I thought was scum, seemed malicious with his push in the beginning of Day 2. It was a sudden change of tone from Day 1. Fair enough on the Marquis point.

[Ranmaru]

I'm going to re-read but won't be able to finish tonight, I have to sleep soon and spent this time casing Gamma. LQ, I want you to truly think hard about my alignment. I want you to work with me, not against me. Look into my eyes. What is your current read on me, LQ? Can we actually join forces like I had hoped when we spoke together ages ago? (Pending re-read)

[Ranmaru]

At the time I was making reads, I didn't have time. I had the time to do it tonight. Also still believe in people giving their case

first

due to burden of proof. I'll consider your #2219 in my re-evaluation. I'd like to see Gamma's response as well. I want you to talk to me about Lycanfire and Davsto.

[Ranmaru]

Lycanfire, what is your read on Shea?

[Ranmaru]

NSG

: I want you to make the effort to post more. I want to know your full reads list today. I also want your KMD notes.

[Ranmaru]

How are you reading Lycan and NSG right now, Gamma?

[Ranmaru]

Gamma can you answer? Talk to me bro.

[Ranmaru]

That's fair.

[Ranmaru]

Anyway I'm liking the thought behind this and it's honestly making me reconsider my read on Lycan.

Can you go into why you are liking it and what your read is on Lycan at the end of that? What is your read on NSG individually?

[Ranmaru]

Run me through the reasoning for each.

[Ranmaru]

Each read. Like you have NSG as town, tell me why you think that. Lycan scumlean, tell me why you think that.

[Ranmaru]

Got it. At the top of your head, why does this feel more like her townplay over her scumplay? What would you expect of her scumplay?

[Ranmaru]

How is she being muted? Can you give examples?

[Ranmaru]

Your #2219? I can do that when I'm done with the re-read.

[Ranmaru]

I already responded to it in my #2217, last paragraph. Also what are you saying, Lycan said Gamma was clear not me.

[Ranmaru]

LQ, what is your read on me now?

[Ranmaru]

NSG

: I want you to make the effort to post more. I want to know your full reads list today. I also want your KMD notes.

[Ranmaru]

Can you talk to me about Lycafire? Why did your read change. I will get back to you more in depth later.

[Ranmaru]

I want to know why he wants CES today. Fair enough on the lycan thing. Also wondering why KMD townreads Marquis (if you do too, I would like to know as well)

[Ranmaru]

I want to know why KMD thought the wagon was bad early game.

[Ranmaru]

Still waiting on Lycanfire to respond.

[Ranmaru]

At first, from that push I was beginning to waver on my read of quick, but seeing his reads, and then him explaining his mindset, I totally understand what and why he was doing what he was doing, so now my town read on LQ has strengthened. Going to try finishing the re-read tonight.

[Ranmaru]

I think you can answer my question easily. How are you reading Shea and why, Lycan? Simple question, just want what is at the top of your head.

[Ranmaru]

That's fine, thank you.

[Ranmaru]

Davsto

: Why don't you look at my reasoning for Gamma town in my #2217 and then tell me what you think. Also tell me what you think of LQ v Ranmaru as well.

CES

: Why didn't you explain your mindset to NSG about your vote on Eddie, instead of simply saying you feel she's trying to scapegoat you for the two mislynches? Are you re-reading yet?

Marquis

: Where are you at with the sorting you said you'd give?

[Ranmaru]

That's a good thing. It helps others catch up. (Like Dan, Marquis, Davsto, etc) I am also re-reading right now.

[Ranmaru]

Lycanfire, what did you think of Quick's interactions with me in recent pages? What did you think of his #2288?

[Ranmaru]

Thanks Lycanfire. I was just wondering how your opinion would compare to mine in my #2303.

[Ranmaru]

Hey Dan. I want to see you try to elaborate on your full reads list.

[Ranmaru]

Waiting on CES and others to respond.

[Ranmaru]

Sweet. I'll have a reads list ready tonight with responses after I get out of work. My re-read is done.

[Ranmaru]

====
Reads
====

----

Town

----

Quick: I again, felt his opening play seemed illogical, but as I pushed into his illogical web, I realize that it seems to have no scum motive there. As I pushed him he kept engaging, which makes me feel he really was trying to understand my issues. I started liking his play since him explaining himself to me, then giving his reads list, then on Day 3, after his Gamma/Ran push, explained his issue with me. I also do believe he is town trying to push things even though he doesn't feel he has the right evidence. I think he undervalues his own skill, and think he has made good observations but then re-treads those due to Occamz razor. (I feel like that helps sometimes and it hurts sometimes especially when scum are doing things you don't expect precisely to fool those who use it)

Gamma: My read on Gamma remains the same. As I have explained in my #2217, this seems much different then his scum game or his third party game. His 'forced' reactions are null, he does it as both alignments. I like his questioning in his #2283, and I like his reconsideration of Quick after Quick rightfully explains himself. In Penguin Mafia Redux, he wasn't actually scumhunting as much. Here he has been doing plenty of that. I would also like those pushing for Gamma (CES) to look into my #2217 and tell me their thoughts.

NSG: Her #441 seems like a pro-town observation, not something I'd think Scum would point out. Now, if I compare NSG to Lycanfire, she's been pretty consistent with her push on CES. She's asked Llama his thoughts on CES. I think overall she was posting well. Now, given her progression on Dunn, I can see why she was fine with voting him as opposed to Eddie. Eddie flipping town makes me feel much better about her slot in general. Again, I do like that she repeats her question to CES in her #550. Looking back, her #584 seems fine since T-chill seemed like likely scum for avoiding the game. She follows up on her questioning to Dunn in her #489. After those posts, is when she starts to drop in activity and engagement. She says it's mostly due to her feeling she is doing bad, which I don't see at all. I can see this as more likely to be town as, she was posting well, and I think if she were scum, she'd continue to post to keep up the charade. She also mentions it's due to post rate going faster, and I know I myself, am a cause of that, even though this game I'm trying to restrict myself. (As opposed to Penguin Mafia Redux, my previous game here, I was top poster above Mulch, Gamma, and Transcend) So it makes sense. This is why I keep asking people to slow down their posting (LQ) because it actually hurts other town from being able to read thoroughly and with effort, when scum really don't have that same desire to comb through posts. She asks for questions to help her jump back into the game, and I try to help out. She does answer in her #1473 which is helpful. Her stance on Eddie was weak, but it doesn't do much to weaken my town read on NSG. On the small off chance that Marquis is scum, she might actually be scum as well. Only slight chance though. A50 thinks she is lock town though. So does Cheeky. (Well that is outdated, she said that quite a while ago, Cheeky isn't active right now, it's just me and A50, but Cheeky did check in with us recently asking us for updates)

Action Dan: So in general, I still have a problem with Action Dan's lack of presence. It feels as the days go on he has less and less presence. He stuck his neck out stating he thought Eddie would still flip town, that looks good on him.
His #1144 is him simply townreading people and using POE. What I really need to see is him going into why, thoroughly if he is doing that, yet he declines. So, that doesn't actually help me sort him. (Yet he says he'll do one today, I hope to see it) I think I have no reason to truly believe he is scum but I'm still wary of him. Slight town.

----

Null

----

Dunnstral: Repeating what I have said earlier: The only thing I get is null. I do like his votes, on Marquis, and his push on T-chill did seem like he had conviction for it. He has been present, and voting, but that's about it. Not seeing any scum intent from him, though. A50 does have him in the scum pool, which is the only thing I have in the back of my mind to keep in mind when reading Dunnstral. An important post I think, is his #2034, which states he isn't invested. The good thing to keep in mind is, that even though he isn't invested, he's still present. || I haven't really seen much from him today, he's just wondering about the kill for now. If we don't lynch scum before him for at least today / tomorrow, then he needs to die.

Marquis: My issue with him is that I can't really find any townieness from him. I do agree that him popping in and out may be scum. I think I'm just more correct with the reads below. If I'm wrong on the lynch today, Marquis must be the next lynch for sure.

Davsto: My overall feelings still remain, so I'll re-post it: I feel like his reads list is overall, surface level. He's still actually in process of ISO'ing Gamma. WGEURTZ, I don't get any vibes from. This is one of those things I can agree with LQ on. (The flatness) It's kind of an issue if Davsto is consistent with that. I also generally don't like how he formats his posts, it makes it hard to parse. LQ's post on him is a good point: #1730 (Second paragraph, first sentence) I think I null read him. I know that he played devil's advocate with Postie on the Eddie case, which seemed townie. Then he makes #1427, agreeing to it. Again, I can't really get too much vibes either way. I keep trying to get a read on him and it's difficult for me. || Now, I'm seeing that he may be having trouble finding mafia. If he's town, I can understand that he's just having surface level opinions and is having a hard time trying to, which is why I'm hoping he does do something with what CES and I asked of him. If CES is not scum, Davsto is. I was hoping he'd actually ISO or answer my questions, I can't really say if he's scum for sure or town, but the way he's posting right now isn't helping me sort him.

----

Scum

----

CES: I realize that CES's #122 Seems suspicious because he states that to Quick without actually stating a scumread on Marquis before then, or giving support. In general, CES in the beginning of game to mid game, seemed to be busy. CES over time has begun to seem more townie to me, especially with his #2279 where he shows worry about the Postie kill. Yet he doesn't really show any re-read yet. His #1596 is concerning to me, as his reads on Shea and Lycanfire don't seem convincing. I would expect a player of his experience to be more critical of a player like Shea. I think sheeping Llama's read is lazy on his part. I actually agree with NSG's point that his pattern of switch to wagons he original wasn't passionate for, gives him scumpoints. It's actually very concerning that he states feeling used as a scapegoat by NSG (which discredits her) but he doesn't actually explain his mindset further. #2279 I'm not confident he is scum, but I feel he'd be the long term scum if so. I think he's slight scum, or town that has been very wrong except his scum read on Marquis in the case Shea/Lyca aren't scum. I find his answer for not explaining his mindset on the Eddie vote to be concerning, I do agree that his vote there wasn't very passionate.

Lycanfire: Lycanfire votes Shea in his #70, without any reasoning at all, which shows he doesn't care to progress RVS. He states he is busy in his [urlhttps://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=9907370#p9907370]#430[/url] which is a recurring excuse. In his #932 he states Eddie and Dunn are lynch bait, but doesn't really look into people that are pushing Dunn. Which feels like he is saying that just to say that, but doesn't actually have the interest to follow up and defend those players. He returns to his CES vote #1369, while not trying to push the wagon even though he says he wants people to be on it. In his #1575 he states he didn't do much with it or interact with him due to previous pages being TvT, which doesn't seem believable to me. In his #1669 He states his underperformance is due to people not wanting to play, which is another excuse. He also states my global reads needs changes but he doesn't have solid reads to back his up, especially his town reads. His read on Eddie is mabye scum, for voting Marquis, who he feels is lynchbait. His #1839 seems like a big effort to move from the CES wagon he was sitting on onto Eddie who he was reading as maybe scum. A wagon analysis before he flips, not after. After my interaction with him, he seemed to get better at interacting near the end of Day 2, but it doesn't do much to improve my read on him. I find it to be good play regardless of his alignment there. In his #2222 he opens once again with his push on CES. He's doing better this time by asking LQ 'why no vote CES?' in his #2309, yet again, I think it's null due to him not doing it originally. I have called it out so he knows what to do to keep playing as if he is town. He town reads Shea for being unwavering with Davo's scumread on him, but that's it. It's a bit weak, and he hasn't really tried to sort him, nor did he ask about his direction on Dunnstral, who he believes is lynchbait. Scum. His read on Shea doesn't really factor in that Shea is pushing for Dunn when Lycanfire stated Dunn was lynchbait. Again, showing that he said that only to say that, not actually backing that up.

Shea: Starts out voting NSG in his #82 because he doesn't like that she used wifom, and that she was voting in a way that he felt didn't progress RVS. Yet, a page before, Lycanfire votes Shea in his #70, without any reasoning at all. Shea never asks or comments on Lycan's post here. In his #440 Mentions Tchill and LQ and a pool of players who might be scum with them, but doesn't mention Lycanfire. He doesn't really seem to try to sort Lycanfire, he just townbins him. I still think this is a concerning play from Shea: #435. He interrupts his push on Lycan and doesn't actually comment. He states in his defense #1673 that he just thought it was garbage and felt no need to defend Lycan to his scumread. Yet he hasn't really done much with Quick after reading him as town. During Day 2, I was pushing Quick again but he was not really pushing much, he just commented a bit when I was talking about his progression. Doesn't feel like he had passion for LQ as scum during Day 2, and was content with sitting on Eddie from the beginning. Him wanting to look into Dunn doesn't really feel like he's trying that hard to find mafia, and Lycan did make the point that [Eddie and Dunn are both lynchbait]. (Note if he has ever criticized Shea for pushing Dunn) I do like that he's attempting to work with me more after my original concerns, but still feel he is scum. I don't think his read on Lycan is convincing, and don't understand why he has Dunn as scummier than NSG. NSG feels scummier than Dunn and I feel Shea is running out of options. (Although I think NSG is town, just that she seems like scum from her recent play) #2083 In general, Shea posts reads lists but doesn't really give reasoning along with them, which doesn't help me see why he feels a certain way. Scum.

[Ranmaru]

SCUM [Shea > Lycan > CES | Davsto > Marquis > Dunnstral | Action Dan > NSG > Gamma > Quick > Ranmaru] TOWN

Unvote; Vote: Shea

[Ranmaru]

NSG

: A50 does and has always wanted to work with you and your team. Right now A50's reads are looking like: Shea > Lycan > Marquis > CES | AD > Dunn > Quick | Gamma > Davsto. (From Scum to Town) Of course I remember KMD, how could I not. I can't remember the details of the posts, but I remember his influence on the game, and he was quite the asset. Now, Dan is someone that worries me. He's getting less and less present. I do agree that I'm a likely kill tonight, so I think it's best we lynch where there will be less support without myself in the game.

Math's lynch order seems fine with the exception of Quick, I don't think he's scum here. I want you to try to convince him back onto Lycan. I feel like you had good points against him. I, myself have been pushing things separately from how A50 has been reading things, and he's becoming more and more right. Yet even so, I feel it's best you try to remain confident with your own reads, separate from your team mate. I want you to try to push your own reads harder. I know that's a thing in the past that has caused me to let scum slip, I let other players experience out prioritize my own thoughts and I let them push their wrong reads and whoops. I didn't like your dissapearance D2 but I can see that it's most likely due to how fast paced this thread has become (partly due to my fault and others). I want you to remain confident and push your own reads. I implore you to look into Shea and Lycan, and compare it with what I say. Re-read the thread. I want you to put the effort. I know it's a lot, but we need your eyes and your thoughts to win. I want you active with me if you are town. I want you to surpass yourself this game. I want you to work with me. Let's get scum.

[Ranmaru]

I have to say why I hate to admit it more though. I realize that my line of thinking is so contrary to what the norm is that it's borderline detrimental to Town. I have always been like this in Mafia and it's more annoying than you are probably thinking. I realize that by being so unconventional in what I am looking at compared to others that it's almost impossible for me to actually get a good grasp of what is going on in the game. Players like Llama, tho they don't back up what they are saying very well, have a much better understanding of what is going on in the game at the time. It pains me to admit that I am probably just slow in understanding things. It's really rather embarrassing.

I think you should not be so hard on yourself. I think there are some parts of your play you can tweek, but there are some good things in the core of it. Llama's been playing this game for a long while, and even in 2011 he was competent when I was messing up! Read this game for a laugh at me: Mini 1146. I think you are still finding things out, there are things I feel you should temper, like you multi-posting more than 5 times, etc. Your attitude towards things 'don't care, that's how I play' can have a side-effect of hurting town at some points. Although it can also help people see you are confident and townie, it can make things muddy. It's also probably exacerbated by my detailed questioning about your mistakes. I don't think this is something you should be embarrassed about, in fact, you should be happy that you are learning what mistakes you can improve on. I think it'll help you to become better, and what better then honing yourself in a competition. Now I do want you to try to keep in mind the posting. I would prefer you wall post those series of posts, even though I'm all for concise posts. I'm sure there are still parts of your play you can keep as your core 'you'. I prefer you keep yourself balanced but with your own preference and style. I think you shouldn't rely too hard on Occamz razor. Note that RC has not just had problems with myself, he's had problems with Shea and Davsto as well. I think you are town and I think we can win this as long as you don't rely too hard on the razor. I also don't think casing is working too well for you. I want to say for you, to try limiting yourself to three concise points, with links, and try to talk about the scum motivation. That way it's easier for you to get to the point. (When I say this, you kind of have to factor in the big picture, not just the small details) Read this: Mafia Universe Wolf Hunting Guide Good guide that I should re-read again. In fact I encourage anyone wanting to improve to read it. Another reason I want you to limit your points is so scum (or misguided town) don't get an issue with one of your points and then causes a whole long interaction over one point when you have more than three. (It's happened to me before) I would love to talk more about this after team mafia. I felt this was important to post.

[Ranmaru]

Gamma, I also want you to improve on your casing. I think you are playing well here. I just want you to improve on the casing part, that was a problem some people had with your slot earlier. Like I said to Quick, try limiting your own cases to three points so it's simple and to the point, while considering the big picture and the small details together. Overall, I want you, Quick, and NSG to be working together while I'm dead. At least that way, we have a chance at winning. I was wrong on NSG being scum, I think she's likely town. I want you to look into Shea and Lycan. Let's do this.

[Ranmaru]

I think we should delierate this more before rushing into a marquis lynch

Why did postie die? She wasn't pushing marquis, right? It makes me feel like this is a part of scum plans

Her only other scum read was you, Dunnstral. Her being killed means that they don't need her to push for a mislynch anymore. Postie being killed over any other townier player with more reads in the open means they are wrong, and scum are comfortable with letting them live. So obviously, that makes me reconsider my own reads. In general, we know that her kill signifies that she's exhausted her purpose, and would be killed to grant no further information from her own kill. That is something we can all agree on. A50 says she was killed due to the RC factor.

[Ranmaru]

NSG, don't forget to reply to me. Also forgot to put you at the top of A50's reads, you are his top town read.

[Ranmaru]

No worries. I'll be waiting.

[Ranmaru]

Lycanfire

: You saying it doesn't make it less likely you are scum. Point of the busy excuse is that you are using it to delay content and you never actually finished your full reads list as you promised around that time. Just goes to show that you aren't really that committed to progressing the game. You just want to seem like you are town. When I reference Dunn, I am speaking about your Shea read. He was a pusher of Dunn as well but you never interacted with him about it. Don't try to use my activity as an excuse, when I rarely go over two posts. (Only in rare exceptions to I exceed that in cases like my reads list and responses) Here is one read I didn't like: Your Shea read, it's weak. You should have re-vised your reads today but you show no signs of doing so. I'm not voting CES today. What's your read on Marquis?

[Ranmaru]

NSG

: I want you to vote with me. You say you want to work with me, that's the best way to do it. Also talk to me about Marquis, how do you feel about him? How about Davsto and Dan?

[Ranmaru]

Alright, Lycanfire. I think I'm just entirely wrong right now, and am re-reading my reads and I just see that I'm too focused on you and Shea being the team. If you are town then I just think you are wrong on CES most importantly. (Also I don't care what Skirt has to say, he can shove it, yet I still respect your team because Transcend and Giga are on it, also I do appreciate you not wanting to make me replace out) Right now, the most sense you are making is with Dan to me right now. LQ is not scum. I'm thinking the team is actually [Marquis, Davsto, Action Dan]. The more I re-read CES's posts the more town he seems to me.

SCUM [Marquis > Davsto > Action Dan | Dunnstral | Lycanfire > Shea > CES > NSG > Gamma > Quick > Ranmaru] TOWN

[Ranmaru]

----

Scum

----

Action Dan: It seemed he tried to play more of a role during Day 1 then Day 2. He states that for him, this game is a town hunt since he's having trouble gaining scum reads. #1147 Yet, some of his town reads aren't that solid. I also get the feeling Action Dan is trying to stay under the radar, especially during Day 2. His #1698 felt weird, timing wise. This was after I voted Eddie, and Eddie had 5 votes at the time. Dan had wanted to give his snap feelings of the dueling wagons, and not that much else. Two things to note: In Political Corruption Mafia, he was more present then he was here, yet in our hydra game together, he was busy and I was the person mostly posting. (Yet, I had it down on lock) I would understand if he was really busy, but the comparison of presence between Day 1 and Day 2, is pretty visible. I think it's more likely he's scum who is having trouble scum reading town players and has to resort to 'town lists' and note that he did not give out a full reads list. He is lacking less and less presence, and I don't get the feeling he is trying to get the reads list done.

Davsto: I feel like his reads list is overall, surface level. He's still actually in process of ISO'ing Gamma. WGEURTZ, I don't get any vibes from. This is one of those things I can agree with LQ on. (The flatness) It's kind of an issue if Davsto is consistent with that. I also generally don't like how he formats his posts, it makes it hard to parse. LQ's post on him is a good point: #1730 (Second paragraph, first sentence) I think I null read him. I know that he played devil's advocate with Postie on the Eddie case, which seemed townie. Then he makes #1427, agreeing to it. Again, I can't really get too much vibes either way. I keep trying to get a read on him and it's difficult for me. I hoped he would get to the ISO or anything, but still nothing. I think this slot is scum.

Marquis: Marquis's #24 is weird and feels like he voted North to distance. Momo's only take on the game is that Marquis is %100 scum. His overall game besides that, is gets wagoned, and lurks it out and states being sick and other things. In the early game he mentions NSG being try hard scum, but doesn't really follow up with it. Marquis doesn't really give much game related reads, but mentions he doesn't know how to feel about Postie or NSG because it has been so long. #457 This is since his #48, which mentions the scum vibes of NSG against Postie's townvibes. Page 2, and then Page 18/19. Now, I would think that as scum, Marquis would not vote in an awkward way to weaken his position. His position was weakened to vote NSG, which seems like a jumpy reaction. Sometimes as scum, when you feel your scum mates messed up, it's more obvious to you and surreal, that you react to it in an informed manner as opposed to ignorant townies. This lines up with NSG's suspicious play. Also note that Marquis never followed up with Action Dan in his #58. (Nor has Action Dan asked for a response) Doesn't feel like he's trying that hard to do a team sort today and didn't like his shade of myself.

Unvote; Vote: Marquis

[Ranmaru]

Shea, I just want Marquis over dunn. I want you to look at Davsto hard. get back to me on that. Action Dan too.

[Ranmaru]

NSG, you never replied to Quick or Myself on Marquis. Please do that.

[Ranmaru]

I agree, Shea. Plus Wgeurts feels the same as Davsto.

[Ranmaru]

Is that based on meta, Quick?

[Ranmaru]

I like that vote, Gamma.

[Ranmaru]

I also like my Marquis vote. Dan wagon I support.

[Ranmaru]

Talk to me more about that, Shea. My first time playing mountanoius.

[Ranmaru]

Yeah I don't see it from that. Also if I think about it like that, it means counter wagons are more important to release pressure on wagons on scum, since there are no roles to help salvage a slot. Counter wagons and also, being under the radar to avoid pressure.

[Ranmaru]

Theory: Marquis votes NSG in an awkward manner to make false connection with her slot. Dan votes postie to seem like he is chainsawing.

[Ranmaru]

Dan, what happened to that full reads list?

[Ranmaru]

NSG is concerning, but I am not confident she is scum. I think there is a chance she may be if Marquis and / or Dan are scum. I think they may me trying to set her up. She does hesitate quite a bit though. I am concerned that she has not really responded in depth on Marquis.

[Ranmaru]

Dan you seem more present when there is a chance a wagon is looming towards you. Why is that?

[Ranmaru]

Unvote; Vote: Action Dan

I think it is [Marquis > Action Dan > Davsto/NSG]

[Ranmaru]

Dan is scum. Vote Dan. Shea vote Dan with me.

[Ranmaru]

NSG I will talk to you later as I have to get ready for work. What do you think of LQ? Gamma, I also want your opinion of LQ from this page.

[Ranmaru]

Please do not replace out, I am enjoying playing with you.

[Ranmaru]

LQ, you tell me not to bother Action Dan as you feel he is town. Why not tell that to Gamma?

[Ranmaru]

Gamma talk to me about LQ.

[Ranmaru]

I think that and his post to Action Dan are scum. He says as scum he tries to give confusion and that is what I feel he is doing right now. I don't town read LQ anymore.

[Ranmaru]

Unvote; Vote: LQ

[Ranmaru]

I still think Marquis is scum. I will think more about this tonight.

Unvote; Vote: Marquis

[Ranmaru]

Davsto can you go into your reasoning for why your reads have changed.

[Ranmaru]

I mean the reasoning for each read. That's all.

[Ranmaru]

I'm at work, and I just want your reasoning all in one post. Just want what is at the top of your head.

[Ranmaru]

Tomorrow is fine.

[Ranmaru]

Do that please.

[Ranmaru]

Cop: Action Dan
Mason: Gamma
Vig: Marquis

[Ranmaru]

Talk to me more about your LQ read and your Shea read, Marquis.

[Ranmaru]

Actually, give me a full reads list right now with reasoning.

[Ranmaru]

North Side Gal, I really want you to talk to me about Marquis. I want you to work with me.

[Ranmaru]

NSG what's your read on Shea and LQ right now? I'll get to you on Marquis in a bit, I'll be home soon.

[Ranmaru]

NSG

:

Marquis

:
Marquis enters voting North following Postie, with weak reasoning in his #24. This is in response to Postie asking why he voted North, not a good response. Marquis states he is having a hard time getting into the game in his#381 but lurks for quite a bit and doesn't try to get back into it, which he admits to in #631 . He talks about who is scum on his wagon, LQ in his #455. He is sidelining while not really pushing anything, like in his #877 and then unvotes in his #879 and nothing else. He has progression for LQ but he never follows up with it. In general, he seems more interested in getting a good position in town, fails and gets wagoned, and then lurks out to survive and dodge the lynch.

In general, he was present in early game, but for what purpose? Not to find scum, because he never followed up with his read on you, nor followed up with Dan's #58. He didn't post again until page 18. He was avoiding the wagon to survive. He's trying his best to avoid a lynch, he's getting lynched. He has not tried to progress the gamestate. You seem to have town leaned him quite consistently. Why have you leaned more likely town on Marquis in your #143? Can you explain your TSQ scum read and Quick town reads, and tell me when those reads sprouted.

[Ranmaru]

I'm going to sleep now. I'd like to see Davsto and Action Dan fulfill their promises. Night thread.

[Ranmaru]

Shea: His #2510. I'm at work, will post more later.

[Ranmaru]

Quick what do you think of Marquis's vote on me and his reads right now?

[Ranmaru]

Shea, I'd like to have a time where we can talk reads. I'm off tomorrow.

[Ranmaru]

Thank you. How are you reading Marquis overall at the moment?

[Ranmaru]

Alright, thank you. NSG, did you ever respond to Quick's #2274?

[Ranmaru]

Will respond in depth in a bit when I get home, NSG, can you explain why TSQ is scum to you now, and why Quick is town to you? Thank you.

[Ranmaru]

Quick, why do you town read Dan? I'm just trying to see what you see there.

[Ranmaru]

Marquis's #2517 is why he is scum. This is the post he would make in a game with PR's, where he would claim VT, to gain the reaction NSG has given in her #2549. Since there are no claims in this game, the best Marquis can do is make that post to survive and seem townie. It would be fine if he actually tried to sort people and gave effort but he just sits there without doing anything else. He doesn't actually make use of his vote in the best way possible, which would be to wagon CES. Marquis's #24 still looks forced, it again feels like a buddy voting a buddy to salvage their mistake since to them, it's magnified so they feel they have to fix it. Here Marquis mentions his read on NSG #42, but doesn't reply to Action Dan's #58, ever. That is also the time NSG stops replying, until she gets back in with her #138. I again stress the point that, scum would not weaken their position for any good reason but to progress their own win condition, and salvaging a buddy seems like what happened. Marquis lurked until his #381, giving excuses of being sick. In his #455 he looks at his wagon and picks Quick as being the most likely scum on his wagon, that's the most game content he shares on Day 1. He doesn't even vote LQ until Screenplay is hammered, in his #1226. That vote was very badly timed. Marquis's #1466 shows that his early push on NSG was a farce, alongside him not actually considering Dan's point of view. His #1481 reads to me as something he'd post to try to seem townie and leave the thread again without any further input, and a vote on LQ. #1493.

So in general: Marquis knows that early game is important to be in for a good position but screws that up, and gets wagoned, and lurks out of it to survive. His vote in EOD is badly timed, to cover for the fact that he has had no presence or intention to check in thread before. He checks in D2 to try to seem townie, and in D3 he tries to AtE a 'give up' post since there are no claims. He tries to seem townie to live, and isn't trying to progress the game. He is going to get lynched today. It is time.

[Ranmaru]

Action Dan

: Sheep me. Trust me, remember when we hydrad? Did I not find scum? I want you to trust me, since you say you are having trouble finding scum. Follow me.

Shea

: I want you on this wagon. I want you to reconsider what Reck said. It doesn't look like anyone is interested in Dunn right now. Join me.

Davsto

: I also want you on this wagon. I am thinking CES is likely town. You town read me, so please join me.

Quick

: Join me on Marquis, since you null read him right now. You shouldn't have a problem joining then. Why wagon a person you consistently town read for most of the game? Get on this magnificent wagon with me.

[Ranmaru]

[Ranmaru]

I want to ask why you are fine with having NSG vote CES. I want you to think hard about that. I've already explained why Marquis goes over CES. Marquis is trying to survive and doesn't care to follow up with his reads (NSG read), CES is scumhunting. His votes on Postie and Gamma seems like he was simply wrong.

[Ranmaru]

That's exactly what I was talking about. You are also being so conf-biased right now that you aren't even considering what I said about NSG (Pedit, I was wrong, diff reason). Scumhunting: Pushing Marquis. That's the only solid thing I can give him. He's not obvious town, but he's lean town. He's not someone I'd consider lynching today. I think you are afraid of considering the NSG aspect because you feel it may make your confidence in CES go down, but I do think you should look into it.

[Ranmaru]

Lycanfire, that's exactly why he is scum, because he's voting off the 'counter' to seem town. I basically explained this in my #2556. You are really letting this 'team' thing restrict your reads. (I mean scumteam thing)

[Ranmaru]

Since this is White Flag, I would think scum would try to do things in a way to confuse us and give false connections. Would I be totally against a team with Marquis and CES? No, I wouldn't, but I don't think it's that likely. I do think Marquis is scum individually, and that's the simplest way for me progress. I think we should focus on Marquis dying today, and then re-evaluate from there. Also note that Marquis DID vote his counter on Day 2, then voted LQ again. (Both wagons of the day) Yet he's not doing that now.

[Ranmaru]

Tell me what you think of this post: #2380. Then tell me what you think of the rest of those pages. I think these are important to read, so if you think it's nonsense, don't. I want you to read them. Tell me why you think Marquis and LQ are

not buddies

.

[Ranmaru]

CES Talk to me about LQ and NSG.

[Ranmaru]

Is that a response to my request for you to join, Quick?

[Ranmaru]

NSG

: I am actually starting to realize you are still town (after re-reading previous pages). Honestly I feel Marquis's early play seems like a link to you as buddies, but I think it is a likely red herring. I want you to really talk to me. Start with why you feel Marquis is a designated mislynch. Then read my #2556 and tell me what you think. Then after we can talk about your CES scumread, in depth.

[Ranmaru]

Thank you Shea.

[Ranmaru]

What exactly do you need me to engage?