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karnos Mafia Scum
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karnos Mafia Scum
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karnos Mafia Scum
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karnos Mafia Scum
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I caught up with the thread a bit late, made an RVS vote, reviewed the thread and decided Kappy was acting weird enough that I wanted to vote him. I almost immediately realized that persivul had just called out sickofit for wagoning kappy, and I also knew since it was my wife's birthday I wouldn't be able to post for the rest of the day, I figured unvoting would be safer than leaving with such a controversial post.In post 91, MechaGoomba wrote:
It bothers me that this post got buried so easily, because it's 100% truth.In post 60, Mizzytastic wrote:
Your worry is about being implicated, and not the (highly unlikely) quicklynch itself?In post 56, karnos wrote: In all seriousness, I don't see a good target for a serious vote yet. I don't think kappy is in danger of being quick-lynched, but I don't want to be implicated if it does somehow happen while I am away.
I don't like kappy but it could just be playstyle silliness. This sounds like scum thinking.
VOTE: karnos
And I phrased it as I did because I wouldn't be worried about a quick lynch that did indeed flip a scum Kappy, but I didn't want to be implicated if I was wrong and he was an innocent townie. Being only a few hours into the first day I wasn't ready to stake everything on one read.-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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karnos Mafia Scum
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After a full review of the thread, I've gotta re-vote my RVS target:
VOTE: Dierfire
Stop hiding.
If I posted my reads list, it would just be pretty damn similar to everyone else. I think it's obvious chumba is acting extremely pro-town, sickofit and kappy acting a little silly and scummy, and just about everyone else falls in between. Hard to have a strong read on anyone at this point in the game. I'd like to at least see a couple posts from every player by now, the game has been up for almost 24 hours right?-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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I was thinking that too, but this is my first normal game so I didn't want to make assumptions.
It's like Jesse Pinkman playing robin hood.In post 115, ShadyHood wrote:Bitch I just got a new avatar now, how do I look?-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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Shady is a newbie with about a dozen posts, I was just trying to get him to add an avatar and it worked.In post 123, Mizzytastic wrote:Thank you karnos for reinforcing my read on you.
I don't like your vote. They'll either turn up or get replaced. Voting someone before they've turned up always just feels like a safe play for scum. Also you say kappy and sickofit are acting a little silly andscummy. Why vote for someone who hasn't turned up (which is pressure doing nothing, cos they haven't turned up) over someone you think has done scummy stuff?
I don't know, is not having an avatar a scumtell? More importantly, why do you ask? Cos it sounds like you want to call it a scum tell but want to know someone else will follow you first.
What was controversial about your post? You were voting on a viable wagon early game. To me that just sounds like playing the game. I don't get your reasoning. You seem really oversensitive to the fact that it might implicate you.
I don't like your vote either, do you want to fight about it? Not posting at all feels like a safe play for scum, and without a little tiny bit of pressure the hiding player can step in, make a minor observation and then hide again for awhile. If everyone had posted by now, I still might be voting for the player with the least posts, if I didn't think they posted any actual useful content.
Are you being obtuse? When I made the post, I immediately realized persivul had called out sickofit for doing virtually the same thing, and there was a bunch of back and forth on the topic. I decided I didn't want to get into that mess when I knew I would be out and unable to post. Now that I am back and able to post, bring it on-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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This really makes me want to vote you. Knowing how you play, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt a little longer. Call this aIn post 134, Sickofit1138 wrote:
If you are town, keep the fuck out of my way and help me scum hunt. If you are scum, keep following my scum filled wagon and expose yourself all the more.FOS-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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Yes, and who wouldn't want their alignment indicated?In post 143, Mizzytastic wrote: Lurking is NAI unless you have meta on a person to say otherwise.?
In general, I don't put a lot of trust in day 1 reads. Yes, I do have a couple players noted in the back of my mind as acting a bit suspicious, but I think they are already getting enough pressure and my vote isn't needed. So I'd rather get some discussion going among the less active players and see how they act and react before even thinking about who the first real lynch should be.
I tend to be a fairly active player when I'm not sleeping. Yesterday was an unusual day for me, so I was feeling a bit paranoid knowing I wouldn't be able to be actively posting. Maybe that paranoia made me come across as scummy.-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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The above sounds like madness. It's way too soon to narrow down the lynch to two names.Sickofit1138 wrote:I have a pitch.
We lynch persivul today: here's why:
If I am lynche today and flip town, persivul can weasel his way ou of a lynch tomorrow.
If Percy is lynche today and flips town, I won't be able to work my way out of tomorrows lynch.
I think everyone is picking a side in this argument, I think we will all agree this is not a TvT.
Lynch persivul today.
If he flips town:
If there is a jail keeper, jail me and kill me if you chose.
If there is cop, cop me.
If neither, I am a viable lynch tommorrow.
If he flips scum:
Then we get a d1 scum lynch. Youre welcome.
If you decide to lynch me today:
You Better lynch Percy tommorrow.
I don't think a singular vote means "hey, this player is scum!". I think it's more like a prod that players can use. Of course, discussing it in the open like this makes it lose value as a pressuring tool.In post 156, Mizzytastic wrote: You agree it is not alignment indicative, but then use it to imply that someone is scum. That does not follow.-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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That is about exactly what I didn't want to see. Nothing useful. Luckily for you, Mizzytastic is defending this style of play.In post 166, Dierfire wrote:Mobile post: sorry, connectivity issues, back within 24 hours!
Yes, of course it's NAI. Am I supposed to accept that some players can hide their alignment by not posting or posting insignificant notes like the above and just give them a free pass?
Since my vote isn't doing anything as far as pressure thanks to Mizzy, and I don't expect to see another post from dierfire for awhile, I'll just try this.
VOTE: Kappy
We are past the RVS silliness, what are your serious reads now? Based on your read list, you rate sickofit and chumba as scummier, yet you are still voting persivul, any reason why?-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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This is my FIRST response to you on the subject:In post 177, Mizzytastic wrote: Bullcrap, I was defending not having posted at all. I'm against consistent lurking. I don't believe you have enough evidence to make that claim yet. People have stuff like connectivity issues happen. Not everyone likes phoneposting. Wait 24 hours, see what manifests. If nothing does then go right ahead and look more closely.
I fucking called it. Exactly what I feared, happened- see bolded text above for emphasis. And your original response? "Lurking is NAI unless you have meta blah blah". I told you from the first response that I wasn't merely concerned with lurkers, I was also concerned with a lurker who posts the absolute minimum post and then goes back to lurking.In post 131, karnos wrote: Not posting at all feels like a safe play for scum, andwithout a little tiny bit of pressure the hiding player can step in, make a minor observation and then hide again for awhile. If everyone had posted by now, I still might be voting for the player with the least posts, if I didn't think they posted any actual useful content.-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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Sigh.In post 182, Persivul wrote: She's right - inactivity is NAI absent meta to that effect. He also curtailed activity in another, later stage game. I doubt he's skipping out on that game because he's scum who's afraid to make a D1 post here. You get lurkers through associatives, investigatives, or vigs. Lynching one D1 gives no information and is a waste. Voting them is a lazy excuse for scum hunting.
- I wasn't expecting to lynch the person, but I was hoping at least the pressure of a vote would encourage him to post something useful when he does drop in from lurking. Of course I had to explain this to mizzy, which tends to remove any useful pressure from the act.
- I wasn't concerned about the lurking, I was concerned that the lurker would make an insignificant post as he did to dodge being prodded. I even said so in my original response, when I said if he had no lurkers I still probably would have voted the least active player to get them to post more. The hope was pressure of a vote might encourage a more substantial post when he comes out of lurking.-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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Somehow I didn't pick up on this the first time I skimmed it. I see whats going on, I was aggressive towards hiding players, so qubixes heads me off and votes me first before he goes into hiding for the rest of the week. now I can't vote him without it being OMGUS!In post 175, qubixes wrote: VOTE: karnos
Feeling pretty tired today, so I don't think I'll be posting much more today. I'll be generally posting more in the weekends I suspect, just as a general guideline.
I don't know, maybe this is something I need to learn from. I tend to distrust hiding players in every game, feel free to look at my game history. When you give them a free pass, how can you make sure scum doesn't abuse your goodwill?-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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I meant that in a joking manner, maybe it wasn't obvious enough. I'd absolutely vote you if I thought you were really scum, but even if you are going to hide for a day or two you have been making readable posts prior to that so I don't really have an issue.In post 186, qubixes wrote: Ha! You can vote me if you think I'm scum. Why are you so worried if it looks like an OMGUS? If you give solid reasoning why I'm scum, it's not OMGUS. You seriously think that I would vote you, because I'm afraid you're going to vote me for inactivity? Also self-meta doesn't look good to me. Apparently you're aware of what you normally do, and you do it here, so that proves... exactly nothing, except you want us to believe you're town?-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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Yes, and as town...In post 190, Persivul wrote:Scum - Open 638 - "I don't like the hiding... it makes me think you have something to hide."
1700 In my (brief) experience playing here, I've noticed scum are often the quiet players who post the minimum amount to keep suspicion off, without trying to draw attention to themselves.
1692 Of course, I also find the quietest players are often that because they are mafia trying to keep a low profile, and the annoying talky players are sometimes just poorly playing townies, so you may yet be innocent.
It's part of my general thought process every game.
Also, FYI, 638 was multiball. While I was scum, I was also scum hunting to kill the other scum team.
I see kappy is sensing weakness and pouncing. I'm feeling better about re-voting him.-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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karnos Mafia Scum
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Kappy- I read him as acting a bit silly and random in and shortly after RVS, but that isn't obviously scum indicative. His recent post has been better. (nulltown)
sickofit- If this was a random player I have never played with before in this slot, I'd be reading him as scum. Knowing him from 640, I have to upgrade that some. sickofit: if you are town, please post more carefully and think before submitting. Also: don't self hammer (null)
persivul- I had a strong town vibe for him yesterday, but now I am really starting to wonder, especially given the town vibe I had for him in 640 in which I just discovered he was actually scum. (nullscum)
VOTE: persivul-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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I've been lurking, I've had a few thoughts but I wanted to see where the Persivul:Saru thing went. Since that seems to be sputtering out, I'll cut in.
One thing I want to comment on:
I find this a bit weird to me. You knew how he played in 640, and in 640 he got pushed hard and even eventually self-voted before flipping town. So in this game, you pushed him right from the start, as sort of a reaction test... but you knew how well that "test" worked in 640, what were you really trying to do? Give him enough rope to hang himself again? Were you thinking that if he was scum you would get a completely different reaction?In post 251, Persivul wrote:http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=66642
This game is now abandoned and can be cited. Check sick's play. He was town, but when pressured was very defensive and OMGUSsy. He even self-hammered as town. Compare that to this game where he was scum:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=66158
In that one he kept his cool except for a single post.
In this game he's in between those two. It reads to me closer to the first, and he said unprompted by me that he was toning down his style. So, I have him as town for now.-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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Persivul: that is about what I expected to hear, whether from town or from scum trying to act like they aren't scum.
You cut it off because it makes you sound town, good time to stop?In post 294, Persivul wrote:
That's why I cut it off.In post 293, Dierfire wrote:The conversation between Persivul and Saru bores me. From this, I conclude that they're both Town! (I'm only partially joking)-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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karnos Mafia Scum
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karnos Mafia Scum
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karnos Mafia Scum
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Most of my reads. Skipping someone for obvious reasons. Also, here is my big newbie slip- I don't know how to easily link posts by post number. Is there some shortcut? Doing it the manual way seems to be way too much work, sorry, I will at least provide non-hyperlinked post numbers so you can check my work if you wish. Also, going to come right out and admit this: I tend to show some unintentional bias against players voting me, I'm trying my hardest to read everyone equally.
kappystarted off very weird in RVS. started to develop a significant wagon from those suspicious of his weird behavior, and predictably calmed down and started posting read lists and taking the game more seriously. I'm not too happy though that it seems once his wagon started to fade away so did his posting- A staggering 20 posts Wednesday, 6 Thursday, 7 Friday, final one explaining that he going away and will be posting even less frequently, and nothing yet today. More damning is the fact that his last 5 or so posts are totally game irrelevant, stuff like miss-posts and talk about hockey. Almost sensing that he was only acting town long enough to break away from a wagon- of course that didn't fully work, as he still has several votes to his name.null/scum
sickofit1138started posting a bit weird in RVS as well, and almost immediately called out for some inconsistencies in his posting. Pushed hard for a bit by persivul, who eventually seems to be satisfied that sickofit is town. Yet the feeling isn't mutual, and sickofit continues to vote persivul. Also a few posts I really don't like, such as the one saying no town should vote me, only scum, or the one where sickofit offers that everyone should either vote him or persivul. While I don't think I should automatically view him as scum because of knowing his post style in prior games, that certainly doesn't confirm him as town either.null/null
mizzytasticAlmost every single post by mizzy is a question, prior to #123 where it goes into a more serious attack on me. I don't consider asking questions to be a scum tell, but it almost seems fake, like someone told mizzy to ask a lot of questions as scum so you look like you are town. Even #60, Mizzy's initial vote on me, just looks like a cheap copy of chumba's post #59 a minute prior. After #123, almost every post seems to be focused on me, until a Friday post announcing being away, and no posts at all today.null/scum
qubixesStarts by asking questions but quickly moves to more complex analysis, initially with #175 where he votes me. However, unlike mizzy above this looks like legitimate original content, and there is no tunneling- later posts call out species, question the saru/persivul argument, some defending towards kappy (I don't fully agree with TBH, but it doesn't sound scummy), followed by getting a bit caught up in the whole kappy discussion for a few posts.null/town
chumbaInitial impression was that chumba is clearly town. Her vote on me #59 was real, unlike the nearly identical copy posted by mizzy. A few defensive posts after people question her for defending sickofit, but nothing that screams out scum to me there. Gets a little bit into it and then apologizes for posting so much, odd but not damning. Some interesting points towards persivul, but remains voting kappy. Gets a little defensive later and insists on parking her vote on kappy, and then replaces out.town(pending reads of replacement)
mechagoombaFirst post #76 is incredibly bad. Seems to be tunneled on proving that chumba is scum because chumba defended sickofit. I read #88 as another bad post... the logic used is that he is unvoting chumba because chuma's stubborn refusal to admit doing what she did proves she is town... I don't like the argument one bit. Almost sounds to me like mechagoomba wanted an excuse to unvote and just had to go with it when chumba refused to confess. After that, jumps on the wagon with mizzy voting me. Comments on my and mizzy's arguments a bit, and makes a remark about species having a "pretty bad" ISO. Goes on to question sickofit about his vote on persival and eventually votes kappy. #312 another terribly bad post from a town perspective, complaining that he can't read a post because it has typos, instead of responding to the content. #324 is also bad, just generally showing a lack of patience and refusal to re-explain anything- this IMO can be a scum tell, if you are simply posting what you truly belive it's easy to repeat a point multiple times using different words, but when you are making stuff up you need to make sure you repeat the exact same stuff each time to avoid contradicting yourself. #331 is bad coming from mechagoomba- note I was trying to keep this notes brief, but this just demands an exact quote "Communication is a two way street. Both the speaker and the listener bear blame when miscommunication happens. To blame the listener ("you're not reading") when you're the speaker and blame the speaker ("creating confusion") when you're the listener is untenable." - I just find this statement coming from mechagoomba to be so ironic, given his earlier refusal to read a post because it had typos and his refusal to re-state a position instead demanding ShadyHood read the top post of the page.null/scum
snorkVery short ISO, not much to go on. Apparently because he was attending a nieces graduation (congratulations to your niece!), though even after his return we don't have anything new yet. Initial vote of kappy, with a switch to sickofit at #96 for not completely obvious reasons.null/null
speciesAnother relatively short ISO. Lots of short posts asking a singular question or making a small point, reminiscent of mizzy's initial ISO before she started to tunnel me. No vote change since his initial vote on sickofit, which is odd. I consider it a scumtell when someone simply sticks with an RVS vote through, because what are the odds that the person randomly picked matches up with their best scum guess from hunting? I need to remember that isn't exactly the situation here though, because species came into the game late, first post was #97.null/scum
saruSaru also started posting late in the thread, in this case at #111, right in with a reads list, and some opinions, sounds very towny. Voted persivul initially after catch-up. Has a little back and forth with chumba, and then gets into it good with persivul. Eventually apparently he has had enough from persivul to convince a vote switch to kappy, but also seems to still view persivul as a possible scum. More or less admits that he wants to pressure kappy, which sounds bad but might just be a noobish error, as pressure doesn't work nearly as well when you admit you are only voting to pressure.null/town
shadyhoodAnother short ISO, and another player requesting replacement. I don't have a strong read on this guy and since he is replacing out I'm going to hold off and do his reads later when the new player for the slot has made sufficient posts. TBD
dierfireI hate the prod dodge posts such as #166, but as a one-time thing I won't deduct points for it. The latest late-comer to the game. Another very short ISO, especially when you deduct his fake filler posts #166, #226, #290, #293(semi-content in this one), #354- that is a *lot* of filler. In his favor while he has few posts some are very detailed posts full of useful information. I don't have a strong read here either. I find his posting style very strange, it's like he isn't active in the thread, just periodically posting his admittedly detailed journal of thoughts. I've really never seen another player post exclusively like this, and I don't know what to make of it.null/null-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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I'm glad you wrote "if", because otherwise you would be misrepresenting me. I didn't have any absolute scum reads, and I had 4 null/scum reads.In post 368, MechaGoomba wrote:Karnos: If you have as many scumreads as you have townreads, you need more townreads, because there aren't that many scum in the game. There are always more town than there are scum.
However, this is my first normal game. Do normal games never have more than one scum team? Can't a normal game include a serial killer or pyromaniac or other neutral sort of "scum"? I find it interesting that you think you know exactly how many scum are in the game.
Thank you, I knew there had to be an easier way.In post 375, Persivul wrote:In post 359, karnos wrote:I don't know how to easily link posts by post number. Is there some shortcut?Code: Select all
[post]350[/post]
Or highlight the post number (nothing else, no spaces or # or anything) and click the "post" button. It's the last one.
Qubixes: I don't really feel the need to explain myself to you in detail, the majority of the points you brought up have already been explained. I will say that your entire posts reads like someone who has already decided to vote me and is just looking for excuses to justify that vote... which does match your current situation.-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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368
"because there aren't that many scum in the game"
I didn't say he said how many are in the game, he implied that he knows how many are in the game. I just find his wording a little but too specific. He could have said there areprobablynot that many scum, or he could have saidusuallythere won't be that many scum, but instead he wrote as if he knows for a fact exactly how many scum are in the game. A slip, or arrogance? Probably the later, but I want to see what others think so I point it out.-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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While kappy is barely posting because he is in Kansas, there are a number of player who have been posting even less, or not at all in the past few days. Why single him out?In post 392, Saru wrote:You'll be in Kansas until next Saturday, right? That means you won't be focused on this game for a whole week. The deadline is in 9 days from now. Don't you think that calls for a replacement? Not even kidding. Not contributing for a whole week while you have a good amount of suspicion on you will either lead to a policy lynch or replacement. I really prefer the latter at the moment.-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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I think you need to do some more re-reading, because you are putting words into my mouth that I didn't write.In post 385, MechaGoomba wrote: Karnos's 359 mentions that Kappy was much more active on Wednesday. However, he then says that Kappy had more of a wagon then than he does now. This is wrong. Check GreyICE's ISO for the votecounts; the maximum wagon Kappy reached Wednesday was 3 players, and it disintegrated quickly. For most of the past few days, Kappy has had 4-5 players on his wagon.
"Almost sensing that he was only acting town long enough to break away from a wagon- of coursethat didn't fully work, ashe still has several votes to his name."
What exactly do you think I meant by "that didn't fully work"? What do you think I meant about "he still has several votes to his name"?
Fact: kappy had 3 votes to his name very quickly Wednesday, due to his randomish style of posting and vote jumping and self voting. Later that same day, he starting playing a bit more seriously, the majority of his wagon vanished, and for a time he was only being voted by a single player 77. That is what I was referring to. And then it seemed like kappy was satisfied, he didn't post as much useful content, and people re-upped their votes on him. I'm sorry if you misread my post, but I never said that kappy has a smaller wagon now.-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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He made more than one statement. The statement about there being more town than scum is silly and irrelevant, but not a scum tell. It was the other statement, the one I quoted above, that I took issue with.In post 402, Persivul wrote: He said "There are always more town than there are scum."
And he's right, and I don't see how you can find that at all specific.
I was specific when I said there are usually 3 scum in a 13 player game. You don't need to be scum to know that. It's general knowledge.
usually3 scum in a 13 player
there aren't that many scum in the game
I don't find the first statement to be a scum tell at all, you are stating a fact.
The second statement is the one I find odd, because it's not qualified with a "usually" or "probably". Especially when I didn't even read anyone as definite scum. Mecha was speaking from knowledge. Of course it's crossed my mind that even as a scum, he wouldn't know whether or not another scum team or serial killer exists, but the more I think about it the more I suspect it might have just been both a scum slip and an error, the error being he forgot that there might be more scum than he knows about.-
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A scum slip isn't negated because the rest of the post is reasonable.In post 406, Persivul wrote:Here's the other statement: "Karnos: If you have as many scumreads as you have townreads, you need more townreads, because there aren't that many scum in the game."
There's nothing specific there either.-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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Not really, but keep lying, it makes your scum motivation more obvious. 45 53 65 71 - not shiny examples of awesome town posting, but they were legitimate serious posts, as opposed to the random silly posting style kappy was using prior. Two of the three players voting him changed votes after 45, so that is why I read kappy as I did.In post 403, MechaGoomba wrote: The actual ordering is "later that day, his wagon vanished, and then he started playing more seriously." ISO him; everything above 77 is pure fluff with only, what, 2-3 game-relevant one-liners? But then, after 77, he puts out 2 separate readslists. While the second one does come after Persivul and Karnos's vote, he wasn't under particularly serious pressure at the time, and now, when the pressure ramps up, he's inactive.
Also, "everything above 77 is pure fluff with only, what, 2-3 game-relevant one-liners?"
Care to guess how many game relevant posts you have made up to that point? A big fat ZERO. Of course kappy only had a couple short relevant posts, because that is all that ANYONE had at that point. It was the 3rd page of the thread, we were barely out of RVS. You are making an absurd argument and I am calling you out on it.
karnos wrote: Been near the top of my potential scum list for some time, and the last few interactions with him just gave me a bad vibe. Maybe this vote will just serve as an empty gesture, compared to the existing wagons, but I feel my prior vote is no longer serving a useful purpose.
Oh I see, nice OMGUS. In all seriousness I don't consider it a scum tell, and I hate it when people act like it is a scum tell, but I can't resist point out how blatant it is in this case.In post 403, MechaGoomba wrote: Something about this just feels really terrible.
He admits nobody else is going for me, but doesn't actually push me in any way. Town generally aren't that content with being the only one on their scumread.
He fails to actually give any explanation for why he's changing his vote now, of all times. Top of the scumlist, yes, so why not switch to me earlier? Because he didn't have an undefined "bad vibe" then.
And, of course, this vote just coincidentally happens to be placed right after I've finished discussing why I'm unsure that Kappy's scum and I might switch to voting him.
I didn't switch to you earlier for obvious reasons I'd be happy to reveal later.-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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karnos Mafia Scum
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You are not wrong about that first part, I am letting meta-observations from other games slip into my thinking here. However...
What I actually said:In post 417, qubixes wrote: you're the only one acting like OMGUS is a legitimate scum tell here
In all seriousness I don't consider it a scum tell
How exactly do you read "don't consider it a scum tell" to imply that I think it is a legitimate scum tell?-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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Because it still has a meaning. I'm just saying his vote on me might not be motivated purely because he thinks I am scum, but rather as a reaction to me voting him.In post 420, qubixes wrote:
No, I don't think you consider OMGUS a legitimate scum tell. The way you brought it up looked like you wereactingthat it was. Why call it "blatant" when there is nothing scummy about it? Blatant town?! Blatant null?! Here is the quote again for reference:
How am I as a reader supposed to think that you bring up something that is completely null/irrelevant?-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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It's not just important to separate scum and town, it's also important to figure out which town are playing smart and coming to logical useful conclusions, as opposed to the town that play from emotion and want to lynch the first person to challenge them.
TL;DR: Town can be wrong, and showing why town might be wrong is a useful thing.
In any case, the above is largely a philosophical discussion, because I do believe mechagoomba to be scum. That is, his OMGUS vote isn't what makes him scum, but it certainly doesn't make him town either.-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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>Why would these useless one-liners be better tools at removing a developing wagon than readslists
I don't know, maybe you should ask the people who changed votes. I was reading based on *what* happened, I don't know exactly why it happened. Although, it might have been related to facts already stated: we are talking page 3, the game was still in RVS mode for a lot of people, and there wasn't a lot of legitimate content to read from.
>Yet every post you have made attacking me is about either the perceived scumslip or my "OMGUS".
If you don't consider my read of you in 359 to be an attack, is that tacit admittance that everything I read into your ISO is true? Notice how my reads on you were longer than anyone else? Notice how I didn't really have much good to say about your ISO? Are you still confused what other reasons I had for voting you?-
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He is scum, that is my viewpoint. I don't have to attempt to make him look more shady, his whole ISO is doing that for me.In post 425, qubixes wrote: I think by calling it "blatant" and "doesn't make him scum butcertainlynot town" is just an attempt to make him look more shady. If you don't want to do that, don't add these terms.-
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It's a learned behavior, followed by realization that it's all a lot of BS anyway. I'm sure if you look at all my prior games in order, you would notice some evolution in my play-style. You should also notice something in common among all my town games- I am initially scum read in almost every game, before eventually coming through without getting lynched. I have not been lynched in any game thus far, yet every game seems to start with a wagon on me.
My first newbie game. I had 3 votes to my name very early, due to my play-style and eagerness to lynch.
My second newbie game. Again I had a wagon of 3 votes to my name by VC 1.2
My 3rd game, and only scum game As scum I was never really even close to getting lynched, at most I had 2 votes to my name on any of the vote checks I can see.
My 4th game, mod abandoned Only see myself up to 2 votes on vote checks, I thought I was actually voted higher between checks. /shrug Even if I wasn't voted highly, my perception was that I was in danger of being lynched this game because of constant attacks.
My play has evolved from this. My early games I attracted a lot of negative attention early on, and so I tried to play more carefully at the start of this game. Obviously its not working out too well.
My last full game was my scum game- you are reading me as scum because I'm not playing the way I play as scum?Overall, Karnos' wishy washy style of play compared to his last game does make me suspicious of him.
Or are you talking about Open 640 - Mod Abandoned? That was an interesting game, the majority of it was extremely polarized between GreyICE and me, until things just broke on day two because of mod miscommunication.-
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312 MechaGoomba quotes a massive wall of quotes, just to reply"I have no idea what you're saying. Please try again with more explanation and fewer typos."
324 MechaGoomba"OK you see that post at the top of the page? Go read it. If you've already read it, reread it. Then make a coherent response to it."
331 MechaGoomba "Communication is a two way street. Both the speaker and the listener bear blame when miscommunication happens. To blame the listener ("you're not reading") when you're the speaker and blame the speaker ("creating confusion") when you're the listener is untenable."
Does this series of posts not bother anyone else? Mecha refuses to put the tiniest effort to respond to qubixes in 312 because of some typos. Mecha refuses to respond to ShadyHood, instead lazily asks him to reread the post at the top of the page. And then Mecha has the audacity to complain about miscommunication to Saru. Yes, he covers his ass by saying "miscommunication is not alignment indicative", but that just begs the question why even bother bringing it all up? Talking about game mechanics, which some see as an easy scum strategy to avoid sharing real reads, this is a step worse than that in my book.-
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It's what I have to work with. Mecha, maybe you could post some more reads, targeting someone other than me? His ISO is completely bare of real townish posts, and all I see are these mild scum indications. They don't mean much individually, but his reactions and lack of counter evidence is enough for me, for the time being.In post 433, qubixes wrote: Also, you're just picking a bunch of twisted/bad (imo) interpretations of Mecha's posts and calling it bad. It doesn't feel like you were really putting in some effort to actually try to accomplish anything with the read at that point.
Would you prefer some meta analysis, where I take some out of context quote from one of Mecha's other games to try to prove he is scum in this one? Rhetorical question, I don't have the patience nor desire to read through everyone's prior games, even if some of my enemies are that desperate.-
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Sure, okay I get what he is saying now. Nobody pointed this out to me when I originally posted my reads, and EBWOP is an abbreviation I wasn't aware of. I've looked it up now, sure that makes some sense.In post 435, Persivul wrote:
You're reading just to find arguments, not to actually understand and solve the game. He said in 313 to ignore the quotes, meaning he was referring to sick's preceding posts.In post 434, karnos wrote:312 MechaGoomba quotes a massive wall of quotes, just to reply "I have no idea what you're saying. Please try again with more explanation and fewer typos."
But I don't see how that makes his post a good town post. It's still just dumb filler, followed by a clarifying dumb filler post.-
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In post 477, Kappy wrote:My responses are in green.In post 434, karnos wrote:312 MechaGoomba quotes a massive wall of quotes, just to reply "I have no idea what you're saying. Please try again with more explanation and fewer typos."He used an EBWODP to explain he had not meant to quote. I think that is fine, since the phpBB quote feature can be unreliable.
324 MechaGoomba "OK you see that post at the top of the page? Go read it. If you've already read it, reread it. Then make a coherent response to it.Whats wrong with this? Mecha was just telling them to read his post again.
Individually, neither is bad. But then you have this"Communication is a two way street. Both the speaker and the listener bear blame when miscommunication happens. To blame the listener ("you're not reading") when you're the speaker and blame the speaker ("creating confusion") when you're the listener is untenable.".
Basically, I see Mecha REFUSING to communicate because of typos or poor writing, and then refusing to repeat an argument, because.. why? he is lazy? Whatever, it's okay.
But then he goes on to make some big point about how communication is critical and trying to throw blame around is unacceptable... WHAT? He is just being a huge hypocrite, I don't see any other way to read it..-
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Let me rephrase. They are still bad, because they are fake filler posts. But not *that* bad... until you get to his later post where he reveals just how hypocritical he can be.In post 481, karnos wrote:Individually, neither is bad.-
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Okay, confession time. I never stopped town-reading Persivul. It's not something where I can point at one or two posts and say "there, that is why he is town!", just his general play overall seems like the play a town player should use. He pushed, voted, applied pressure, but when he got a response he thought indicated town he would relent and move to another target. I feel that a scum player would be more likely to ignore the response or act like it's not good enough and keep pushing for a lynch. I lied in the post quoted above.In post 487, Wingback wrote: @ Karnos - a few questions:
Are there any specific reasons you were townreading Persivul for? I didn't read the entirety of Open 640 but from an ISO of you and Ctrl+F Persivul, it seemed like he was scum with GreyICE and when GreyICE attacked you, he defended you leading you to townread him. Nothing in this game is comparable to that so where is your read coming from?In post 247, karnos wrote:persivul- I had a strong town vibe for him yesterday, but now I am really starting to wonder, especially given the town vibe I had for him in 640 in which I just discovered he was actually scum. (nullscum)
VOTE: persivul
The reveal that Persivul was scum in open 640 made me realize something. There are some players who are good enough that I won't be able to read them as scum, at least not without some pressure to make them adjust their posting style. At the time, there was a small wagon forming on Persivul, so I made the rash decision to vote him myself, with the above flimsy argument, in the hopes that persivul under pressure might post something I could read as scum.
This is actually what I was referring to in 410 - I didn't want to immediately state that my vote on persivul was entirely fake, because I was still hoping that he might feel slightly pressured and say something he wouldn't say otherwise.
Above said, I am obviously give up on that play. If Persivul is scum this game, I don't think I will ever know.-
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You tell me: what is the scum motivation in waiting?In post 500, MechaGoomba wrote:You apparently gave up in 475, resigned yourself to being lynched. Why not explain yourself then? Why wait until now, if you had this explanation ready all the time and just kept it secret for *reasons*?
If I do get lynched, I'll have a chance in twilight to share anything else that needs to be shared.
I don't *have* an argument. Persivul was playing as town should, IMO. 295 was my lame attempt to push him a little. Could I make up some absolute BS, and try to use that to attack him a little more? Maybe, if I tried, but I didn't want to get myself miss-lynched bad enough for that. In retrospect the whole thing was a poor play. Maybe I should have gone all in on the attack, but I felt my slot was already viewed as scummy by several players and I couldn't risk a full gambit like that.In post 500, MechaGoomba wrote: If the only reason you were voting Persivul was to pressure him enough that you could read him, why not unvote after the big Persivul vs. Saru argument? You never followed up your vote. You never pushed Persivul. What could your one unsupported vote give in terms of pressure that a giant pagelong argument couldn't?
Reads evolve, and sometimes not pushing a suspected scum can lead to more valuable information than you would ever get by pushing it. I feared that I wouldn't be able to read persivul as scum unless he was pushed, but that doesn't apply to all players. Any scum reads are rather flimsy at this point, and giving you more rope to hang yourself seemed like a better plan at the time. I don't like to do this, but since everyone wants to use meta against me I guess it's fair to bring up: in my previous games, I hated posting read lists. I know my reads are flimsy, and posting them in the thread for all to read just gives a lot of information away that I really don't want scum to have.In post 500, MechaGoomba wrote: When you voted Persivul, you made the decision to focus on pressuring him over pushing your scumreads. When you chose not to vote me, even after you put me as a top scumread, you reaffirmed that. You scumread a lot of things I said between 247 and 399, and none of them convinced you to vote me.
So then, what reason could you have to go back on that decision to pressure Persivul and vote me? I didn't suddenly become hyperscummy right before 399. The only good reason would be you realized you were no longer able to pressure Persivul, right?
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p7866218
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p7780459
Those were my first two games, both as town BTW. I've gotten a lot of pushback from this line of thinking, I get the impression that I am viewed as scum because I don't share reads, so I decided to go the other route this game and shared a nearly full read list (minus persivul for obvious reasons- if I revealed that I read him as town, my vote on him would seem incongruous and I wouldn't be applying any pressure). Suffice to say, I am now wishing I just stuck with my previous strategy of keeping my reads close except when I was willing to vote, as sharing my reads as I have somehow just made me look worse and gave some free information away to scum.
Anyway, long story short: I won't always vote a scummy player immediately, or even tell them I see them as scummy, because to me that is essentially saying "hey, if you want to fool me into thinking you are town, quit doing X Y and Z". Just plain bad strategy IMO.
It's psychological. If I vote you and say I think you are scum, and later switch to another person saying something like "well I am even more sure they are scum", it doesn't fully take you off the hook- you might wonder if I will go back to voting you, or if I will vote you after the other person is lynched, etc. It might release some pressure having the vote moved off, but you still know there is a player who wants to lynch you, even if he isn't voting you currently.In post 500, MechaGoomba wrote: Then, if you saw you weren't pressuring him with a vote on him, why would you still believe you'd be able to pressure him even after unvoting? Your rationale for not explaining in 410 doesn't hold water.
And TBH, I really think the above would be completely obvious, but you don't see it because you are blindly pushing your case on me.-
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Really? I guess my opinion will be disregarded since I am the one under the microscope here, but that type of reasoning is always scummy. You have time, use it.In post 501, qubixes wrote:Personally, I don't really see the point of waiting out the deadline here. I doubt scum are going to reveal themselves regardless of Karnos' alignment. Anyone agree/disagree?-
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You and others making the same 'observation': I voted MechaGoomba first. If it's scummy to push back with a vote, then you should be reading him as scum, not me.In post 492, Dierfire wrote:Persivul in 435 and qubixes in 459 accurately capture where I was going in 393: karnos pushes back against MechaGoomba in a way that feels insincere (more like trying to "return fire" than actually trying to read MechaGoomba). I need a VC and time to finally look at those previously mentioned games of karnos, but this is likely to be my vote shortly.
MechaGoomba: The chance of me claiming before L-1 and intent to hammer is 0%. If someone decides to rush and quick-hammer before claiming, the loss is on them, not me.-
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Anyway, for bloodthirsty players like Mecha and qubixes, why not use this time to be productive? If I am scum, who are my scum partners?
I'm really curious to see what you think, seeing what you think prior to my flip is much more valuable from a town perspective. If I'm going down, I'd like to take at least one scum with me.-
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karnos Mafia Scum
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Dude, I was completely transparent on that, it should be super obvious even for someone tunneling me like you are.In post 512, MechaGoomba wrote: since you voted Kappy for a good chunk of the game but basically did nothing with it. He was also doing his best to ignore you until the wagon on you got really big and then he used flimsy reasoning to hop on.
171 I voted kappy, making it clear why with this:"We are past the RVS silliness, what are your serious reads now? Based on your read list, you rate sickofit and chumba as scummier, yet you are still voting persivul, any reason why?"
I was already reading persivul as town at that point, and was trying to understand why kappy of all people was voting him, especially given his own readslist.
239 I unvoted kappy,"thanks for clarifying, that removes the main reason I had for voting you"
Based on 235 and 236 , where kappy changed vote targets.-
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/sigh
Fri Jun 10, 2016 7:38 am This is my first post in the 640 game thread after the scum team reveal.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p7990492
Fri Jun 10, 2016 8:52 am
247 This was my vote on Persivul in this game, roughly an hour later. Why the hour? Honestly I can't remember, it's been almost a week. I may have been posting or reading in another ongoing game, or I might have actually had to do something for work that morning.
Go ahead, call it a coincidence if you want.-
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Mecha, there is a reason I am scum reading you. It's posts like the above.In post 524, MechaGoomba wrote:The key thing here is:Karnos admits to faking a read.
He's just saying he did it for town purposes, as a reaction test. But he is still claiming it was fake. He just claims the motivation was town, not scum.
So I suppose the question has to be: If he was reaction testing, why did he leave out Persivul in his readslist?
Wouldn't any answer to that question be just as good an answer if he was scum?
Please tell me, what post of mine has me faking a read?
I voted a player who I was currently reading as town, in the hopes that maybe some pressure on him would make him slip up if he was scum. That is what I did.
I didn't fake a read, I actually excluded him from my list of reads. You seem to be aware of this, so why would you say I admitted to faking a read?