Mini 2308 | Blood over Utopia | Utopia fell.

[meowmeow]

hi everyone! i think the flavour for this game looks really really good and i'm looking forward to it. this post will be mostly focused on mechanics, since i missed that discussion; sorry if anyone's tired of that! i hope to keep my mechanical thoughts in this post, even though it will be a bit long, and in the future i can talk about reads and stuff.

first of all, i don't

think

this has been brought up, sorry if i missed it, but it seems likely that many of the projects, if not all, have some kind of drawback which aid the insurgents. this is because, firstly, the mod explicitly " Whatch out, money you spend may end up financing Them." and secondly, if we don't choose projects the insurgency gets given money as compensation, which implies that otherwise not choosing projects would be a viable strategy that the mods want to discourage. unfortunately, i'm not really sure what these would be, but it seems likely that it's mostly just based on the amount of money we spend on the project which is somehow siphoned off by the insurgents, given the use of the word 'financing.' but perhaps there's something else for the 'sacrifice' project?

ok, now onto the projects themselves. i think, since the development projects are the most useful and most discussed, we should start with that. i agree we should be selecting one of these projects as part of our two choices. i think printing press would be a really bad choice; i don't think we need the information that much, and it locks us out of choosing the most powerful development projects today. assassination just doesn't seem great right now, but it's not like anyone wants to do that iirc. i think board of elections is also likely bad; while i don't know this, the projects seem to be based on 'give consensus townreads more voting power' and while the projects unlocked by the board of elections will be more powerful, i imagine they'll be the same type of thing, and this seems less useful than the other projects. this seems controversial, but i think trading outpost is also bad. it might be useful later, but doing it right now seems inefficient. funds we don't use just get given to the insurgents, who will have powers for themselves, and i think we're likely going to struggle to just spend the 60k we have.

so to me, the choice is between bureau of investigations and guildhall. i don't think anyone's brought up guildhall, but i think it's potentially pretty powerful - i think this is where doc and jk actions would go, for example. however, bureau of investigations is likely to give us concrete information. without exact knowledge of what will be unlocked, i don't really know which is the best choice, so i'm happy to go with the consensus on bureau of investigations being better.

apart from development, we get one other projects. honestly, i don't love any of the choices we have. the cost probably doesn't matter, except for blocking us from census, since i imagine the insurgents will get their money regardless of what we do. the choices that seem obviously useless are; mayor election, raffle, autopsy, election security, injuction, inquiry, census. not all of these will be useless for the entire game, but i don't think they merit discussion today.

intelligentia is a potential choice. i think it's intuitive there are just 3 scum; 2 scum seems just... boring, and i don't think we have enough power to justify 4 scum, since this is mostly mountainous and all of the public powers are pretty bad. however, it's possible scum have some sort of creative and/or weird structure - like multiball or a strange factional ability instead of the kill - and the existence of this ability indicates it might not actually be 3 scum to me.

sacrifice just seems weird. like, we get a vig shot, they flip, it's free, and we get something tomorrow. even though it's loyal, i think there is a catch here - loyal vig is still a much better role than mayor or whatever, which costs 10k. honestly i'm inclined to think it's bait and there's a catch to it on the insurgent side, because otherwise i think it would have come up in review. if we have someone we want to vig, fine? but i'm not too enthusiastic about it.

the jury creates a hood, which i guess is nice! i don't think the vote is very good. i also don't think hoods are that powerful, and can often lead to pocketing, so i'd prefer to avoid this, but i understand why someone would vote for this i guess.

neighbourhood watch... i mean, it's fine? like, there's not much reason why we specifically would want to use it now, since it only goes into effect on d2. but not having daytalk is indeed a small nerf for the mafia, regardless of when we use it, and tomorrow we probably want to use something investigative and a development ability, so i don't see much harm in doing this.

finally, marriage. this might be the best method of killing in a vacuum; make scummy people marry, and if you want to lim one you get to lim the other. however, if you decide you don't want to eliminate these people after all, and they are both town, you're allowing scum to make a double kill when it's elo time and that doesn't seem like a very good choice to make. so while i could get the appeal of this, i don't think it's a good choice for d1.

basically, i think we want {bureau of elections or guildhall} and then {neighbourhood watch or intelligentia}

HURT: Bureau of Elections

[meowmeow]

ah, yes, that is what i meant to do. i am exceptionally bad with names. the board of elections does indeed seem less useful

HURT: bureau of investigations

[meowmeow]

VOTE: penguin power this is a utopia, penguins have exactly the right amount of power[/vote]

HURT: neighborhood watch to not have day talk early on could be more damaging then later when there a groove.

I also support printing press, it's pretty clear later stuff is gonna cost more than the current budget and if we don't keep up increasing it it may be days before we can pick something really good.

i don't think daytalk is like, exceptionally powerful in itself, but for most scum players it makes the game a lot more fun and i don't think they would want to give it up. i think scum would advocate for it eventually, if other people were doing so, but i think being the first to bring it up and vote is sort of towny.

i think marci's push on cakez feels like towny and proactive. probably not ai but 152 made me smile! i don't agree with the mechs in 155 - i don't think loyal vig is such a trash role, and i actually think it's maybe

too

good to be true honestly, but that probably isn't a scummy thing to believe.

not a fan of csf's 120 - it feels a bit like, overly cautious? i mean, of course most reads this early are going to be a little premature, and 'town feels' isn't that strong of a statement anyway. i feel like it's self-conscious of giving out tmi townreads too easily, which is something scum do sometimes

not a massive fan of 170 - i think snivy's position on the sacrifice is understandable and the way drew is treating it feels off to me, like he's purposefully trying to twist it into something malicious and it's not super clear how he would get there naturally.

i like aureal's 220. i think at first, scum are at least reasonably likely to give their honest thoughts on mech stuff so they can blend in. however, i think by this point it is pretty likely scum aureal would have the mindset of "if town want to do this, let them" because i think she has a good understanding of the setup and precisely why we shouldn't select trading post today. she doesn't need to pick a fight over this when it could make town reconsider their choices

[meowmeow]

funds we don't use just get given to the insurgents, who will have powers for themselves, and i think we're likely going to struggle to just spend the 60k we have.

Err you sure it works like that?

oh yeah, it says it's 'lost' not given to the insurgents which might just mean no one gets it. i don't really think it changes my point that funds we don't use don't amount to anything good though

[meowmeow]

VOTE: cat scratch fever

there can only be one

[meowmeow]

i like meowmeow's entrance, first posts I've read this game that really made me feel town

could you elaborate on what made you townread me?

[meowmeow]

basically, i think we want {bureau of elections or guildhall} and then {neighbourhood watch or intelligentia}

HURT: Bureau of Elections

I think what you said about the developments makes sense, but what do you think of the argument that neighborhood watch and intelligentia can be better served later in the game?

i don't think that's something we should be worrying about too much. we can use the abilities twice, and in the later game we will hopefully have much more powerful roles we can use, rather than worrying about mafia's daytalk, keeping in mind we can only use two abilities per day. i actually think that ability might be more useful in the early game, since mafia probably wouldn't feel as comfortable in the game state and their knowledge of mechanics? i can see the argument for using intelligentia that way, since there are flipless mechanics in the game, but personally i would want to never use the assassinate ability and use autopsy aggressively if/when the mafia use the janitor ability they probably do have. i think especially if we get to a situation where multiple people have died, and we're not even certain what the scum count was to start with, the information offered by intelligentia will not be that useful in determining the alignments of dead players.

not a fan of csf's 120 - it feels a bit like, overly cautious? i mean, of course most reads this early are going to be a little premature, and 'town feels' isn't that strong of a statement anyway. i feel like it's self-conscious of giving out tmi townreads too easily, which is something scum do sometimes

no, I'm just aware that I can get confbiased on even early townleans sometimes, and on review, Aureal hadn't done anything except mech talk that could easily come from scum as well up to that point

i'm aware this could come from town you genuinely feeling this way, but i think scum are generally more likely to do stuff like review and see if they made a townread that's too easy immediately after making the read, whereas town are more likely to just list who they had town feels on and roll with it because feels aren't usually, like, super justified

regardless i'd be interested if you have any examples of like, being cautious about early townleans as town in the past? or if you don't have that, when you've confbiased on an incorrect townlean early. i don't want to take too much of your time, so just going off memory is fine

[meowmeow]

My most recent towngame is linked here in which I only had one townread early (on someone who has a really polarized meta) and deliberately withheld other townreads

i think this context makes it less scummy, given you seemed a little bit cautious to give townreads (eg with saying jingle gave you town feelings early but want to be cautious of them), but i certainly wouldn't say you only had one townread early; or if that's true, your posting didn't seem to reflect that, with additional townreads given to adorable and wgeurts unless i'm misreading? you did also give five unmitigated townreads at least fairly early, although this was page 24 so i can certainly see why you wouldn't compare it to your behaviour on like page 6 or whatever it was

i'd also like to ask, given your merlyn push, do you think advocating for no elim is equivalent to a mechanical disagreement on something like the development abilities? additionally, do you think RCE was actually advocating for a no elim in those posts?

[meowmeow]

@drew, you made that assertion before, that snivy was desperate to push through the sacrifice

i think sac could be worth it since we could theoretically find a mafia member with it

its like a loyal vig

My issue with Sacrifice today is that, if I am reading the rules correctly, everyone who votes for it gets to decide who the target is. Here on D1 reads are just starting to develop so it is much easier, imo, for scum to make their way into the council who decides the Sacrifice.

I feel like that is another way to save for a later day when reads are developed more.

-Drew

i think sac could be worth it since we could theoretically find a mafia member with it

its like a loyal vig

My issue with Sacrifice today is that, if I am reading the rules correctly, everyone who votes for it gets to decide who the target is. Here on D1 reads are just starting to develop so it is much easier, imo, for scum to make their way into the council who decides the Sacrifice.

I feel like that is another way to save for a later day when reads are developed more.

-Drew

we could also hold a psuedo-vote now for the sac target (also depending on the flip)

My point is sacrifice can just be the regular lim but we get paid for it.

But ehh I’m not gonna argue more for it

HURT: trading post

i think sac could be worth it since we could theoretically find a mafia member with it

its like a loyal vig

My issue with Sacrifice today is that, if I am reading the rules correctly, everyone who votes for it gets to decide who the target is. Here on D1 reads are just starting to develop so it is much easier, imo, for scum to make their way into the council who decides the Sacrifice.

I feel like that is another way to save for a later day when reads are developed more.

-Drew

we could also hold a psuedo-vote now for the sac target (also depending on the flip)

You are a very eager beaver to push through Sacrifice aren't you?

-Drew

based on this interaction, can you elaborate? i think the suggestion from him - to use the vig as a double elimination - would be a fairly reasonable way to use the sacrifice ability, and would counteract the issue you brought up (that mafia would control the council). it seems like a fairly normal discussion on mechanics, so i'm not sure what your thought process is here

[meowmeow]

i mean, i don't agree with that at all, but i can kind of track the thought process so i'm not really concerned about it now

pedit: that's regarding drew

[meowmeow]

i'd also like to ask, given your merlyn push, do you think advocating for no elim is equivalent to a mechanical disagreement on something like the development abilities? additionally, do you think RCE was actually advocating for a no elim in those posts?

RC wasn't actually advocating for a no lim though? I think he wanted to use Sacrifice in place of the regular elimination, which is along the lines of project discussion. I think she kind of went "he's asking for no lim and that's odd," because typically asking for no lim is anti town, but I'm not sure why she thought that was scummy in this case exactly

and I guess part of the answer is that Merlyn just doesn't care as much about the other project mech stuff that was happening today, which is fair. But it seemed like jumping on RCE for saying "no lim" when that wasn't really happening

i agree rce wasn't actually advocating for a no lim, he was just using it rhetorically to question people's opposition to using the sacrifice. i think merlyn misunderstood what he was trying to say, and her push on him definitely wasn't good. but like, based on merlyn's interpretation of that post, that it was advocating for a no lim, i don't think it's strange for her to vote him for it, or to prioritise it over some other kind of mechanical disagreement. so when you're asking things like "why is she voting rce for a mechanical disagreement" and not addressing the core issue of merlyn's interpretation of that post, it kind of feels like you're more interested in pushing merlyn than sorting her. it's not like pushing merlyn for that post is inherently scummy, but i don't see why you go about it in this way that doesn't really address the elephant in the room that needs to be resolved. is there anything i'm misunderstanding about your side of the interaction?

[meowmeow]

based on this interaction, can you elaborate? i think the suggestion from him - to use the vig as a double elimination - would be a fairly reasonable way to use the sacrifice ability, and would counteract the issue you brought up (that mafia would control the council). it seems like a fairly normal discussion on mechanics, so i'm not sure what your thought process is here

Not really on topic but isn't double day like really low EV

i don't think so? i mean, i don't know about the double day setups you might be referring to, but i think the core mechanic of "town gets 2 kills for every mafia kill" is pretty favourable to the town, although i'm not like an expert in open games so you might be right and if the game is mountainous otherwise i guess that might be lower ev than you would expect

i guess it is pretty off topic though!

[meowmeow]

i agree rce wasn't actually advocating for a no lim, he was just using it rhetorically to question people's opposition to using the sacrifice. i think merlyn misunderstood what he was trying to say, and her push on him definitely wasn't good. but like, based on merlyn's interpretation of that post, that it was advocating for a no lim, i don't think it's strange for her to vote him for it, or to prioritise it over some other kind of mechanical disagreement. so when you're asking things like "why is she voting rce for a mechanical disagreement" and not addressing the core issue of merlyn's interpretation of that post, it kind of feels like you're more interested in pushing merlyn than sorting her. it's not like pushing merlyn for that post is inherently scummy, but i don't see why you go about it in this way that doesn't really address the elephant in the room that needs to be resolved. is there anything i'm misunderstanding about your side of the interaction?

What do you think Merlyn misunderstood? Based on 181, it seems like she understood fine?

i don't think she understands that rce is trying to point out that arguments against using the sacrifice apply just as well as arguments against using our elimination, except the sacrifice has perks on top of that. as far as i can tell, he isn't sincerely advocating for a no elimination here, but rhetorically trying to point out that arguments against using the sacrifice don't hold water. i think merlyn saw it as a proposal to use the no elimination over the sacrifice, based on 181 saying "even if we use the sacrifice we can use the lim too" and later accusing rce of wanting to no lim and saying she doesn't think town would do that. if she didn't misunderstand, i don't see why she would accuse him of that; it doesn't seem like a very effective scum tactic. and if we were to argue on the premise that rce

was

proposing that as a mechanical plan, i again don't really see why it would be so strange for someone to be more suspicious of that than disagreements over the development projects or whatever.

it's possible i'm actually the one misunderstanding here, in which case i am very sorry!

[meowmeow]

it definitely feels wrong that double day would be bad for town by ev, considering it is just 2:1 town kills vs 1:1, but i guess i don't know that for sure. do you have a link to the ev stuff?

my view is that it's perfectly normal to be dubious of someone advocating for a no elim over the alternative of eliminating while still using the sacrifice ability because it involves giving up a town kill for no reason, similarly to why we don't propose no elim in most scenarios even if a vig exists or whatever. i seem to have been wrong about the initial interaction though and i don't really have confidence this is scummy for csf anymore

UNVOTE:

for now, i'll try and find something else

[meowmeow]

Aureal strikes me as Townish currently.

why?

also - does printing press unlock better options for us? i don't think i've seen that implied anywhere

[meowmeow]

marci do i kind of look like the cat in your pfp

i don't really have much of a read on cakez yet - 304 could be a tmi townread, since it's sort of inspecific, but i think i've said something similar as town before when someone's posts just read as believable so i'm really not confident in saying that, and not much else seems worth noting. i can sort of buy the "not finding anything to scumread" angle, since i've felt similarly at times - there

is

a lot of mech discussion this game, which is fine but probably means the game is not as advanced as you'd expect from the postcount

[meowmeow]

Not voting (4): Random Nurse, HighFlyingDwarf, marcistar,

y'all need to do something

is this sarcastic?

[meowmeow]

VOTE: penguinpower
as much as the instant pagetop upon return is impressive, i don't think his posts are as impressive from an alignment perspective unfortunately. 378 feels kind of performative; marci has done more than most people this game and i don't think highflyingdwarf is going to start doing things because this post exists. the fact this post is kind of like, all he does after coming back with so many new posts, is concerning to me

also this means i'm not not voting

[meowmeow]

i don't exactly expect penguin to be posting walls of analysis, or word salad like i do, but i think i'm right to be concerned by his posts on this page

who should i be voting instead? were you concerned about merlyn's read on you?

[meowmeow]

i don't really agree with the votes on merlyn. nothing she's done is super strong town to me. the explanations i've seen are her RCE vote being bad - which i don't agree with, for reasons i think i've gone over already - and her mixing up printing press and trading post in 33, which isn't convincing to me either. roden said her read on marci in 319 is tmi and that's probably the most convincing argument to me, because i think that's a line of thinking that can work, but i'm not convinced the read is actually a good example of that because i also think marci is towny and while i'm not sure i'd word it in the exact same way, her attitude and general confident aura is a major reason i think that.

i like her read on rce in 319 - it's something i've thought about too. maybe scum could come up with it, but it's a good observation in my opinion which makes it more likely she's town thinking critically about the game

regarding roden, i don't really have a read on him yet. i'd be interested to hear people's roden thoughts. a lot of his posts are mech stuff (most of which i don't agree with at all, but that's probably nai). i guess i'd like to hear why he voted merlyn in the first place given his poking at her was for posts made after his vote

[meowmeow]

well, flavor leaf is a name i haven't seen in a long time

i suppose this game will be getting more posts from now on

[meowmeow]

regarding roden, i don't really have a read on him yet. i'd be interested to hear people's roden thoughts. a lot of his posts are mech stuff (most of which i don't agree with at all, but that's probably nai). i guess i'd like to hear why he voted merlyn in the first place given his poking at her was for posts made after his vote

I voted her because 230 felt weird considering she only had two votes at the time. I wanted to see how Devil reacted to a blank vote, I anticipated a chainsaw but they didn't do that so I felt a little better about them. I didn't move my vote because I feel like Merlyn jumped the gun in calling Marci vs Drew TvT and it seems like she's stalling out having to explain her read.

Also I'm talking about mech a lot because puzzles tickle my brain. I know site meta is to punish mech talk but it's literally just fun to me, and I can talk mech and solve players at the same time. But if I start hyper focusing too much on mech please just tell me, that's all I really need.

i guess that's fair? i probably lean town on this response anyway

i don't mind the mech talk. i think i'd be a massive hypocrite if i did! i was just saying, like, it's harder to get a read on him than you might expect from the postcount

[meowmeow]

How do people feel about using Inquiry as the second project today?

i'm against it. i think the mod lies will be as the result of game effects, which is implied by the signup posts. i also think mod lies in the rules or role pms (given this is mountainous) are extremely unlikely

[meowmeow]

I went into a minor WIFOM spiral over this, but my gut wants to townlean it.

why?

[meowmeow]

roden why is aureal town

[meowmeow]

"Is it possible your game has any mechanically bastard roles or mechanics?
It is possible that there be mod misdirection; however, there are no hidden modnotes and I will never lie unless a game effect instructs me to"

i think it's heavily implied here that the 'lies' involved are from mechanics and abilities - which makes total sense - and furthermore i think it's very likely these 'game effects' are whatever abilities mafia has access to.

i think the overwhelmingly likely result will be that there is no mod lie & the action is wasted. honestly even if i discovered there *was* a mod lie at this point i'm not really sure what i'd do with that

i think finding out how many scum exist is likely to be more useful

[meowmeow]

i think 3 is the most likely answer, but the mod makes a point of making it ambiguous whether or not the mafia actually have a factional kill which i think implies it's more likely they *don't* have one

i think it could pretty easily be 4 as a result of that

it at least seems more likely that this is the case than the mod lied about projects funding the mafia

[meowmeow]

i would probably still prefer neighborhood watch though actually

we can make inferences based on 'do people die every night' anyway

[meowmeow]

roden why is aureal town

I like the way she's dissecting the game mechanics and trying to optimize what we should fund and how we should do it. That on it's own is obviously not out of anyone's scum range, but I've noticed that the way she's been poking at people's understands of the mech and motivations for their votes is being done in a way to try to expose people who could be informed. I especially liked her interactions with RC earlier for that.

looking back on her iso, i don't see this as obvious. in fact, i think it's probably not happening at all?

i think you saying this is probably +town for you even if i'm right though. well, especially if i'm right actually

[meowmeow]

I went into a minor WIFOM spiral over this, but my gut wants to townlean it.

why?

The progression is a bit fuzzy in my head and I don't actually remember what order these thoughts occurred in, but it went something like this:
"Announcing on page 19 that he has no reads. That seems a bit bold from a scumbucket, I'll probably townbin it for now."
"Hmm, but what if he's scum and knows it looks town and that's why he's doing it?"
"But also, what is he even doing if he's scum? Where's the agenda?"
"I wonder if it's a reaction test."
"...you know what, it feels town, I'll townbin it."
"

Was that a bad idea?

"

- Alianna

i read fl as being like 'i have no reads because i haven't read the game' judging by his comments on the mech stuff

from this angle i can see why you would do that

[meowmeow]

roden why is aureal town

I like the way she's dissecting the game mechanics and trying to optimize what we should fund and how we should do it. That on it's own is obviously not out of anyone's scum range, but I've noticed that the way she's been poking at people's understands of the mech and motivations for their votes is being done in a way to try to expose people who could be informed. I especially liked her interactions with RC earlier for that.

looking back on her iso, i don't see this as obvious. in fact, i think it's probably not happening at all?

i think you saying this is probably +town for you even if i'm right though. well, especially if i'm right actually

Yeah, I'm also a little confused to find out that I've been doing this.

Why do you think saying it is +town?

i think it shows roden is reading into things on a deeper level, even to the point drawing connections that aren't there, and then made no effort to express he was doing this until i asked him about it. i think town is more likely to behave that way - it feels uninformed and not that survival motivated

[meowmeow]

i was saying mafia are hurt more by losing daytalk early

[meowmeow]

i'm aware, but that's true with the proposal of doing it later and mafia lose it for like idk d4 or d5 or something. it's not going to change.

tbh i don't think any of the non development options are like that good? watch is fine, jury is fine, intelligentia is fine, sacrifice is fine but we probably want a target in mind beforehand and it's too early

[meowmeow]

i'm not that familiar with penguin's meta, i've played with him before but not much

if he said literally this exact thing that might change my mind if he wants to link it? i'm familiar with him doing stuff like when he told marci to vote for cakez and that's nai, i know he cares about votes, but i don't really remember him acting like votes are the only thing that matter and that's not something that intuitively makes sense to me in any case, you have to vote for something and that requires like words and stuff

[meowmeow]

VOTE: penguinpower
as much as the instant pagetop upon return is impressive, i don't think his posts are as impressive from an alignment perspective unfortunately. 378 feels kind of performative; marci has done more than most people this game and i don't think highflyingdwarf is going to start doing things because this post exists. the fact this post is kind of like, all he does after coming back with so many new posts, is concerning to me

also this means i'm not not voting

Wow how strange my townread had the exact same thought as me

cakezzz you wouldn't try to pocket me right

[meowmeow]

Does census not work if the number of insurgents among 5 is +/-2?

yeah, it doesn't give much indication either way

i don't think census is very good, or really anything else, which is why i think we should prioritise getting more useful abilities as soon as possible

[meowmeow]

marci, roden
merlyn
csf, snivy
cakez, flavor leaf, random nurse
devil, rcenigma
aureal, penguinpower

i think i'm here right now. i don't really get common townreads on RCE. none of my reads are that strong so far - honestly, i'm a little worried about it, it feels like the gamestate isn't that advanced and we're halfway to deadline. i was hoping we'd be able to, uh, walk and chew gum when it comes to the mechanical stuff, but maybe we need to cut down on it and focus on the mafia side of things

[meowmeow]

marci, roden
merlyn
csf, snivy
cakez, flavor leaf, random nurse
devil, rcenigma
aureal, penguinpower

i think i'm here right now. i don't really get common townreads on RCE. none of my reads are that strong so far - honestly, i'm a little worried about it, it feels like the gamestate isn't that advanced and we're halfway to deadline. i was hoping we'd be able to, uh, walk and chew gum when it comes to the mechanical stuff, but maybe we need to cut down on it and focus on the mafia side of things

Listen, I am letting Alianna deal with the mech stuff, so we can tussle and throw hands on the mafia side of things if you want.

Especially since we have some clear differences in our reads.

Snivy that high? RC and Aureal that low?

-Drew

snivy is... really not that high. he is one tier above random nurse. i get slight town vibes from his attitude, but nothing specific

rce feels off to me and i don't understand townreads there. although i wouldn't call flavour leaf towny - why his vote is on flavour leaf is a good question? for someone who has so many posts, i don't think he's doing much to advance the game honestly.

why shouldn't i have aureal that low? originally, i had aureal as a bit towny for her insistence on pushing mechanically good ideas. you didn't agree with them, so i'm not sure why you think i should be townreading her. there's not really a case for me to make here, i just feel very uneasy with her posts and extensive mechanical focus she had for the entire game to the point she had like one blank vote in terms of reads content despite being around quite a bit. something about her interaction with me and roden felt off to me, too. it's mostly a gut thing but if i have to put it into words, i guess it's responding to my post and not roden's (she responded to a post before that that came after roden's chronologically, so this wasn't a convenience thing) to say she wasn't doing what roden thought? and then like, poking at me for the first time after roden said he would townread her poking at people? i don't think it's especially unreasonable to ask me about that, but i don't think it's an especially baffling read to make either, so asking about that as your first question of the game does feel ??? to me

[meowmeow]

none of my reads are that strong so far - honestly, i'm a little worried about it, it feels like the gamestate isn't that advanced and we're halfway to deadline. i was hoping we'd be able to, uh, walk and chew gum when it comes to the mechanical stuff, but maybe we need to cut down on it and focus on the mafia side of things

Yeah, I agree with this. This setup triggers my mech-based instincts to want to try to break it, but motivation sank and now I still barely even have any reads.

Hmmmm. What do you suppose is the meaning of the fact that there was a bunch of talk about the Merlyn wagon but nobody ever asked me why I voted her? Was it that obvious to everyone?

did you see this setup as like, especially breakable? i mean, there's certainly engagement to be had over which options will be better for town and that's totally fine, but even in the best case scenario, are any of these options really that good?

i can't speak for anyone else, but i thought it'd be more interesting to wait and see if you talked about merlyn, or anyone else, without prompting

[meowmeow]

marci, roden
merlyn
csf, snivy
cakez, flavor leaf, random nurse
devil, rcenigma
aureal, penguinpower

i think i'm here right now. i don't really get common townreads on RCE. none of my reads are that strong so far - honestly, i'm a little worried about it, it feels like the gamestate isn't that advanced and we're halfway to deadline. i was hoping we'd be able to, uh, walk and chew gum when it comes to the mechanical stuff, but maybe we need to cut down on it and focus on the mafia side of things

I'm surprised to see rodent so high

what can i say, this is a game of cat and mouse

the roden read isn't exceptionally strong but i don't townread anyone more than him right now, and i think i explained that read

[meowmeow]

marci, roden
merlyn
csf, snivy
cakez, flavor leaf, random nurse
devil, rcenigma
aureal, penguinpower

i think i'm here right now. i don't really get common townreads on RCE. none of my reads are that strong so far - honestly, i'm a little worried about it, it feels like the gamestate isn't that advanced and we're halfway to deadline. i was hoping we'd be able to, uh, walk and chew gum when it comes to the mechanical stuff, but maybe we need to cut down on it and focus on the mafia side of things

Why are Devil and Aureal so low?

i think i just explained aureal, so i won't repeat it here

re: devil, i just haven't been a fan of pretty all the pushes they have made. none of them are specifically exceptionally scummy, but it adds up to leave a slightly poor taste in my read-mouth

[meowmeow]

RCE can you move your votes onto one of the two wagons

Personally I think leaf is towny even though they don't have many posts

i don't think anyone explicitly asked, so i'd like to hear about your leaf read

[meowmeow]

i've played with you before, but it was a long time ago now - it's true i don't have recent experience with you and i guess i'll check your games from 2022?

i wouldn't expect you or most people to do things with the sole intention of 'advancing the gamestate' but usually that just happens naturally by like, pushing people or asking questions when you're suspicious etc. like, the intention reading part of your post - i think you did that with cakez, and maybe a bit with drew, but it doesn't feel like a big focus for you so far. i understand if you're town you probably have been thinking things and just not posting about them that much, and i don't really intend to vote you out d1 unless we get in a deadline rush and it's you or someone i townread

re: fl, i don't mind that you prioritise sorting him but i don't really see how your vote goes about doing that? since i don't think fl has really entered the game yet and i don't think fl is going to like feel pressured by the vote or whatever. it's not the biggest deal because townies do things i don't understand frequently, but it does just feel a bit strange that you didn't seem to have anything else going on at the time i guess

[meowmeow]

marci, roden
merlyn
csf, snivy
cakez, flavor leaf, random nurse
devil, rcenigma
aureal, penguinpower

i think i'm here right now. i don't really get common townreads on RCE. none of my reads are that strong so far - honestly, i'm a little worried about it, it feels like the gamestate isn't that advanced and we're halfway to deadline. i was hoping we'd be able to, uh, walk and chew gum when it comes to the mechanical stuff, but maybe we need to cut down on it and focus on the mafia side of things

Listen, I am letting Alianna deal with the mech stuff, so we can tussle and throw hands on the mafia side of things if you want.

Especially since we have some clear differences in our reads.

Snivy that high? RC and Aureal that low?

-Drew

snivy is... really not that high. he is one tier above random nurse. i get slight town vibes from his attitude, but nothing specific

rce feels off to me and i don't understand townreads there. although i wouldn't call flavour leaf towny - why his vote is on flavour leaf is a good question? for someone who has so many posts, i don't think he's doing much to advance the game honestly.

why shouldn't i have aureal that low? originally, i had aureal as a bit towny for her insistence on pushing mechanically good ideas. you didn't agree with them, so i'm not sure why you think i should be townreading her. there's not really a case for me to make here, i just feel very uneasy with her posts and extensive mechanical focus she had for the entire game to the point she had like one blank vote in terms of reads content despite being around quite a bit. something about her interaction with me and roden felt off to me, too. it's mostly a gut thing but if i have to put it into words, i guess it's responding to my post and not roden's (she responded to a post before that that came after roden's chronologically, so this wasn't a convenience thing) to say she wasn't doing what roden thought? and then like, poking at me for the first time after roden said he would townread her poking at people? i don't think it's especially unreasonable to ask me about that, but i don't think it's an especially baffling read to make either, so asking about that as your first question of the game does feel ??? to me

You think it's suspicious to respond non-sequentially? Man, I knew there had to be someone out there that I was paranoid of feeling that way when I hold back posts because I'm not keeping up well and don't want to seem like I'm ignoring things.

I'm posting from mobile while doing other things a lot and might get a little scattershot in responses at times. Like right now, there was some other post in here I saw and want to respond to and didn't immediately find so it's probably before this one a ways.

I saw Roden's post about me but didn't immediately feel moved enough to comment on it until you did as well because you both validated my feeling that it was kind of an odd take, and came to a different conclusion about him based on it. So I asked, and realized I liked your reasoning better than my own. I've seen a good few fake townreads on me in recent games, and you made me realize it didn't really resemble those, even though it seemed inaccurate in the reasoning.

yes, it's me. i'm the cat from your nightmares. meow

well, idk, roden's take was about you, so i would have thought if he's wrong it's reasonable for you to interject then. the fact it didn't move you to comment at first, although he was saying something about you that you knew was wrong and you found it odd, feels like... overly cautious, to me?

[meowmeow]

none of my reads are that strong so far - honestly, i'm a little worried about it, it feels like the gamestate isn't that advanced and we're halfway to deadline. i was hoping we'd be able to, uh, walk and chew gum when it comes to the mechanical stuff, but maybe we need to cut down on it and focus on the mafia side of things

Yeah, I agree with this. This setup triggers my mech-based instincts to want to try to break it, but motivation sank and now I still barely even have any reads.

Hmmmm. What do you suppose is the meaning of the fact that there was a bunch of talk about the Merlyn wagon but nobody ever asked me why I voted her? Was it that obvious to everyone?

did you see this setup as like, especially breakable? i mean, there's certainly engagement to be had over which options will be better for town and that's totally fine, but even in the best case scenario, are any of these options really that good?

i can't speak for anyone else, but i thought it'd be more interesting to wait and see if you talked about merlyn, or anyone else, without prompting

Oh, it was the next post, lol.

I guess breakable might not have been the best description. It's a bianco design, I'm not mech-headed enough to think I can literally break it. But I'm a micromanager who wants to optimize things to an obnoxious extent. Like today I'm kicking myself because I missed a Paypal offer to get $5 back if I'd just used it for one more $50 transaction by yesterday. Surely I could have found something else I could've paid with PayPal for in the last couple of weeks and I would have gotten free money.

And we're on the same page regarding talking about Merlyn, lol. I was kind of waiting to see if anyone asked about it!

Seeing as nobody did, I started theorizing about what that might imply. Then I went back and looked at the actual wagon composition and decided I didn't really like my theory after all.

well on the bright side you saved yourself $45! maybe we should hold a vote on whether we should use the paypal ability

[meowmeow]

i've played with you before, but it was a long time ago now - it's true i don't have recent experience with you and i guess i'll check your games from 2022?

i wouldn't expect you or most people to do things with the sole intention of 'advancing the gamestate' but usually that just happens naturally by like, pushing people or asking questions when you're suspicious etc. like, the intention reading part of your post - i think you did that with cakez, and maybe a bit with drew, but it doesn't feel like a big focus for you so far. i understand if you're town you probably have been thinking things and just not posting about them that much, and i don't really intend to vote you out d1 unless we get in a deadline rush and it's you or someone i townread

re: fl, i don't mind that you prioritise sorting him but i don't really see how your vote goes about doing that? since i don't think fl has really entered the game yet and i don't think fl is going to like feel pressured by the vote or whatever. it's not the biggest deal because townies do things i don't understand frequently, but it does just feel a bit strange that you didn't seem to have anything else going on at the time i guess

Okay, well, uh, thanks for reinforcing my townread on you by thinking the same sort of things as me again???

Sigh

this sounds like you're angry at me for making you townread me

[meowmeow]

i townread marci leaf
townlean includes meowmeow and aureal
null is everyone else but notably devil
scumlean is merlyn rce and cakez
scum is penguin and snivy

idk if you just missed or didn't want to answer but why is leaf town?

[meowmeow]

In my head I had the thought that Aureal had a good mix of mech and player solving, but after going back over her ISO I'd say you're right about her being more mech focused, at least early on. I don't feel like she had any intent to try to earn town cred with "correct" mech solving though. I think her and Devil have been doing their best to explain our options with the pros and cons as concisely as possible.

As for Devil's reads, I find myself vibing with most of them. Drew in particular feels like his pushes are kinda weak but only because he's just freely speaking his mind. It doesn't seem agenda-y to me.

Are there any pushes of theirs that you did like?

shrug, i think posting mostly reasonable sounding longish posts about mech is a fairly safe thing to do and aureal was mostly just getting townreads for a while iirc so it seems likely that a hypothetical scum aureal would keep doing that with the intent that, even if it wouldn't earn her tons of towncred, it was a strategy that had worked out until that point and she just wanted to keep rolling

and no, i don't really think i've liked any devil-push so far. at least, i don't remember liking any, and a quick iso didn't remind me of a minor push i liked and forgot about or whatever. the snivy, marci and merlyn pushes all felt at best to me

[meowmeow]

i townread marci leaf
townlean includes meowmeow and aureal
null is everyone else but notably devil
scumlean is merlyn rce and cakez
scum is penguin and snivy

idk if you just missed or didn't want to answer but why is leaf town?

nothing pings me as scum about him and i get towny vibes from him. also likes 657

btw merlyn is like, barely a scumlean too and I'm only saying it because i partially forgot why i thought they were scum in the first place

idk like can i get you to elaborate here. like what about fl's posts felt like he would be more likely to make them as town, especially before your read list

most of his posts have been like "hi guys look at me i'm a leaf and i replaced in like 5 minutes ago"

i'm not really *that* suspicious of this because it's more of an "i don't get it from either alignment" but i would like to be able to read you

[meowmeow]

ok well what posts had the towny vibes

[meowmeow]

ok well what posts had the towny vibes

657, they already said this

that was after they townread you

[meowmeow]

i failed in my quest to understand snivy, but i think his read on fl is probably +town? i mean, i still don't get it at all, but it probably makes more sense for snivy to have just struck a chord with one of the posts which i think are blatantly nai vs like, just blurting out a townread on fl for no reason and not being able to back it up when it was questioned. i mean, as scum i think you think about these things more and most people play it a bit safer whereas as town if snivy had that thought at one point he might have just gone all in on it and doesn't feel like he can walk it back now

i think flavor leaf's zealous crusade to prevent anyone from even asking about his weird relationship with snivy is scummy though. 'hounding' is such a melodramatic word to use for people asking questions about something that is obviously strange. how many votes does snivy even have here? most of the people he portrays as vultures looking to prey on the poor little snivy aren't even pushing him right now. and i think if you're being townread it's at least normal to be more cautious than... whatever this is. it feels like he decided this was the angle he wanted to take and then went much further with it than anyone ever would because he's flavor leaf and if anyone calls him out on it he can shout louder

@fl;
in your eyes, do you think a post like 466 or 468 would be particularly difficult to fake as scum?
and re 682 do you expect someone like snivy to be really familiar with your reputation?

[meowmeow]

To be fair, they just said they had a town read on me from it, i don’t think it was the most complex read ever, nor should it have been at that point.

You all making it seem like they were 100% lock towning me, when I don’t think they’d ever say they expect to be right, that’s just how they were feeling

Y’all hounding them off that little thing

tbf im only being "hounded" by 2 players im not worried

I felt like marcistar, Merlyn, and meowmeow had hounding energy.

Purely a Vote does not = hounding, but i felt energy coming at you from all those slots.

Some are fair to do so, but the fact 5 people became immediately interested in that isn’t nothing.

Soooo...I haven't judged or even asked anything about snivy's tr of you. I pushed him about his comment to RCE, and I asked for a townread. I think both of those things were okay to do. You may have instasorted him but I'm still working on it.

You and he becoming best buddies so quickly is interesting, but something I'd rather wait and see how it evolves over time vs. saying it's alignment indicative.

Normally I wouldn't waste time trying to sort Flavor on D1, but I kinda feel he is open wolfing here.

That's right Flavor, look me in the eyes and tell me you aren't scum*

*all opinions voiced in this post are of Drew and Drew only, Alianna had no say in this

Drew Post

-Drew

so i'd say this is probably the first read from devil i like

[meowmeow]

i failed in my quest to understand snivy, but i think his read on fl is probably +town? i mean, i still don't get it at all, but it probably makes more sense for snivy to have just struck a chord with one of the posts which i think are blatantly nai vs like, just blurting out a townread on fl for no reason and not being able to back it up when it was questioned. i mean, as scum i think you think about these things more and most people play it a bit safer whereas as town if snivy had that thought at one point he might have just gone all in on it and doesn't feel like he can walk it back now

i think flavor leaf's zealous crusade to prevent anyone from even asking about his weird relationship with snivy is scummy though. 'hounding' is such a melodramatic word to use for people asking questions about something that is obviously strange. how many votes does snivy even have here? most of the people he portrays as vultures looking to prey on the poor little snivy aren't even pushing him right now. and i think if you're being townread it's at least normal to be more cautious than... whatever this is. it feels like he decided this was the angle he wanted to take and then went much further with it than anyone ever would because he's flavor leaf and if anyone calls him out on it he can shout louder

@fl;
in your eyes, do you think a post like 466 or 468 would be particularly difficult to fake as scum?
and re 682 do you expect someone like snivy to be really familiar with your reputation?

no to all, and thats also why i think it's townier of camel tbh

i don't like necessarily disagree. maybe the speed and strength of the snivy read is scummy, but the read itself being town is fine. i'm more asking about like, why you seem to think pressing snivy on that read is unnatural. you seem to agree the read itself is ??? so why wouldn't trying to get him to explain it more be helpful? like, i don't get the angle here. well, the second question i might have misunderstood 682? i read it more like, 'snivy would go out of his way to pocket me if he was townreading me because i'm the FLAVOR LEAF'

well you seem to think i'm townier than snivy now for whatever reason so maybe this is slightly out of date but i'm posting it anyway

[meowmeow]

ok so about fl and cakez;

I don't think this is not how town FL would be reacting here
You're literally going right into crazy accusations and trying to start a huge war/argument with me with a very bs claim that my vote on you was forced when if you read like any of the last five pages you'd know that I've been looking for someone to vote/suspect for a while now. Cmon that's just so wack.

i wasn't expecting to agree with fl here, especially since he doesn't agree with himself anymore apparently, but like... i think there's a valid concern here that isn't addressed. it makes sense that your threshold for 'scummy thing' is lower, but like, what's your thought process here that makes you think low initiative -> scum for fl specifically? i admit to not having played with him for a while, but from what i've seen so far this game, i'm highly doubtful he's changed at all for years; he delights in being scum and messing around with people and being exceptionally active, right?

and like... honestly my problem with fl's posts there wasn't that he had too little initiative, but too much. the defense on snivy going to the point of accusing people of hounding him so quickly was pretty bizarre to me, and as i said, he went harder than he needed to. so i'd like to at least hear more about the thought process behind this push

i don't really get devil's push on 786 either which seems fine

[meowmeow]

keep the hounding coming, though

what's with all the hounds. this game is supposed to be cat themed

[meowmeow]

i think marci hasn't really been scummy, and there have been things i found town indicative. i'm not really interested in pressuring there to get a better read, because i think marci tends to react really badly to pressure and it makes the game messier and isn't necessarily actually helpful (sorry marci)

she's a hard slot to read because she tends to play in a more actively pro-town way as scum but reading her that way just means if she tries to like play to her wincon and stuff she gets punished for it which feels bad. i think the best approach is to read her mostly normally but keep in mind she can and often does stuff as town which most people find scummy. it's a hard balance to strike because it's not like the meta is super reliable at all but i don't think reading her normally is that likely to work either

it's probably worth noting that roden said earlier he townreads marci for slaying, which means scum marci is more likely to go out of her way to slay in this game?

regardless i still think the way she's gone about just pushing cakez and calling out fl as weird after he spammed is probably +town for her because, like, her posts don't feel guarded to me i guess?

i'd be interested to hear why devil is town - i'm not really feeling that right now. i'd also be interested to hear why i am town given i was like hounding snivy or something yesterday. (apparently, the american shorthair cat might be the closest equivalent, given how adept it is at hunting mice. that's interesting right?)

[meowmeow]

ok so i'm town leaning on cakez now actually. i still want him to explain the fl push but i'm not really

VOTE: deal with the devil

i think this is a better vote than pp right now, the push on cakez for the penguin post felt kind of ???. i'd like to hear an explanation but i feel like he's dodged that so far, and rn i kind of feel like the intention was to sheep fl except he didn't want to look like he just flip-flopped into sheeping fl after calling him out for the snivy thing, so he had to bring up something new

[meowmeow]

i am still squinting at aureal but she's trying to get into the game so i'll like, let her cook or whatever

[meowmeow]

i think marci hasn't really been scummy, and there have been things i found town indicative. i'm not really interested in pressuring there to get a better read, because i think marci tends to react really badly to pressure and it makes the game messier and isn't necessarily actually helpful (sorry marci)

she's a hard slot to read because she tends to play in a more actively pro-town way as scum but reading her that way just means if she tries to like play to her wincon and stuff she gets punished for it which feels bad. i think the best approach is to read her mostly normally but keep in mind she can and often does stuff as town which most people find scummy. it's a hard balance to strike because it's not like the meta is super reliable at all but i don't think reading her normally is that likely to work either

it's probably worth noting that roden said earlier he townreads marci for slaying, which means scum marci is more likely to go out of her way to slay in this game?

I cannot wrap my head around what this is trying to say about how to read marci. Don't pressure her. Read her 'normally' (whatever that is) but

don't

read her 'normally'. What do we do? This explanation makes me feel like we're just not supposed to try.

what do you mean we're not supposed to try? i literally give a read on marci in this exact post. she's difficult to read, and i think i should be able to acknowledge that without it being taken as 'you should never try to read marci'

if you read like any marci game i'm sure you can figure out what i mean by 'reading normally'. this is her last game on the site. in this game she is town and posts a bit normally at the start of the game, drops off a cliff, gives one townread repeatedly without elaborating much, people pressure her for it and she lashes out and it's all very meh. i don't think i'm wrong to say i don't want to pressure her exactly. if i vote for her it'll be because i think she's scum and want her dead, not because i think it'll be productive in itself.

i'm not forcing you to do anything, and i acknowledge the way marci plays is difficult to read, but i'm not going to put on blinders and miseliminate her for the same things over and over again. i think that would be silly. most of how i am going about it is how i'd sort anyone else - which is what i mean by reading normally - but when it comes to overtly scummy things like her cakez read being bleh or her being unnecessarily antagonistic to rile people up or whatever, i don't want to scumread her for that. will this work? who knows! but it's what i'm going to try unless i think there's something better.

[meowmeow]

What’s everyone’s case on Penguin? I don’t see much anything AI, and it feels like they got pushed for their pop in a while back, which I didn’t feel anything inherently wrong with.

i was mostly just pinged by like, independently of opinions over whether votes are the only important thing or not - i don't really understand that perspective at all but it's not ai - penguin just coming in after being prodded and telling other people to do something. in hindsight, i guess since penguin was already voting maybe by his worldview he was doing just as much as anyone else? but it struck me the wrong way. i think like, even if you don't care for cases or long posts, usually in order to parse the thread and decide who you want to vote the most, you might want to ask questions or give some one liners or whatever. and i would have expected after being present for the first few pages, and then gone while the game built up,

that being said, i recently looked over a few recentish pp games, and i think generally as scum he doesn't engage any less, which lightened my read enough to vote for someone else and so i voted devil. tbh i'm not like immensely confident on devil being scum either, but i think they're a fine vote for the time being

With Devil, I think I’m Vibing with Drew more than I have in any game before, just kind of casually, and I’m just not seeing ill intent there like I am with some other slots. Like for instance, i don’t think they have a reason to town read me here as scum unless they want me to push a misfade, and turn on me later, but i just don’t get that vibe at all.

Usually they discredit me when they’re scum

how many games do you have with scum drew, and have you brought this pattern up before? like, there could be something here if it's a pattern over a large number of games and he wasn't aware of this being his meta beforehand. but in most circumstances, i would expect that scum give out a lot of townreads without needing a strong reason to? and if they're afraid of you, townreading you seems pretty sensible

on the vibes, shrug, i can't exactly argue with that, i just haven't had the same experience reading drew posts this game

[meowmeow]

What’s everyone’s case on Penguin? I don’t see much anything AI, and it feels like they got pushed for their pop in a while back, which I didn’t feel anything inherently wrong with.

i was mostly just pinged by like, independently of opinions over whether votes are the only important thing or not - i don't really understand that perspective at all but it's not ai - penguin just coming in after being prodded and telling other people to do something. in hindsight, i guess since penguin was already voting maybe by his worldview he was doing just as much as anyone else? but it struck me the wrong way. i think like, even if you don't care for cases or long posts, usually in order to parse the thread and decide who you want to vote the most, you might want to ask questions or give some one liners or whatever. and i would have expected something after being present for the first few pages, and then gone while the game built up.

that being said, i recently looked over a few recentish pp games, and i think generally as scum he doesn't engage any less, which lightened my read enough to vote for someone else and so i voted devil. tbh i'm not like immensely confident on devil being scum either, but i think they're a fine vote for the time being

With Devil, I think I’m Vibing with Drew more than I have in any game before, just kind of casually, and I’m just not seeing ill intent there like I am with some other slots. Like for instance, i don’t think they have a reason to town read me here as scum unless they want me to push a misfade, and turn on me later, but i just don’t get that vibe at all.

Usually they discredit me when they’re scum

how many games do you have with scum drew, and have you brought this pattern up before? like, there could be something here if it's a pattern over a large number of games and he wasn't aware of this being his meta beforehand. but in most circumstances, i would expect that scum give out a lot of townreads without needing a strong reason to? and if they're afraid of you, townreading you seems pretty sensible

on the vibes, shrug, i can't exactly argue with that, i just haven't had the same experience reading drew posts this game

minor ebwop

[meowmeow]

I also remember he said he’s going to town hunt bc he didn't have scumreads, but then I don’t really remember him doing much of that. He threw one tr at Roden and that was kind of just it.

i like this post. i was kind of town-leaning on the way cakez didn't go through the motions? in the sense that i thought scum cakez wouldn't have much trouble finding someone he could push and then bullying them. i can see a scum cakez much more easily through the angle of 'he's going through the motions to play up the act of not having reads'

[meowmeow]

Simple. Scum interacting more with me gets eaten.

do you know marci? that might slightly change how i view your interactions

[meowmeow]

meowmeow is probably the towniest town to ever town.

- Alianna

hi, why do you think so?

[meowmeow]

This is the interaction that made me want to bring it up. You really don't need to say this as scum, unless maybe you're scum

with

marci, but that is statistically less likely and I'm not feeling scum!marci anyway, so I don't think I'll focus on that scenario. If you're scum and you think marci will react badly/make the game messier/make herself look worse under pressure, it makes more sense to me to add to the pressure, or at least not to reveal all that information that points away from marci!scum. I realize I may be lacking context with this assumption, but you seem to be an alt so I'm assuming scum!you wouldn't necessarily have to worry about other players knowing you have meta on them and adjust your fake reads accordingly (which could otherwise explain you making that post as scum).

i don't think scum me would want to play on the assumption my identity would stay hidden the whole time but i think this is a believable read to have

[meowmeow]

oh, i don't think i actually responded to this. i know the one online is alianna and can't respond but like oh well

I feel like it's a complete waste of time talking to you since you just called my cancelled Penguin push scummy then admitted you haven't even read a Penguin post

I meant to answer the questions/concerns last night, but then got tired and the bed called my name(530 am wake up call).

Just seemed over the top to me and trying to find any angle to discredit FL. I hate when someones defense is finding even the tiniest of smoking guns, and I get getting upset(town or scum). But I also feel Cakez showed signs of frustration being run up as scum, even if he doesn't agree with the reasoning......trust me I have been there.

And I came after FL initially because I thought I could suss him out a bit, and it was probably more his back and forth with Cakez tbh, but I feel pretty good that I am seeing townFL.

-Drew

how do you differentiate 'town being frustrated at getting voted for bad reasons' from 'scum being frustrated at getting voted for bad reasons'?
can you elaborate on why you think cakez was like, trying to find any angle to discredit FL, and how does this work along with the idea that he's getting angry at being pushed for bad reasons?

[meowmeow]

eh i havent acknowledged meowmeow at all

what does this mean? like are you just not reading my posts or something

[meowmeow]

i townread marci leaf
townlean includes meowmeow and aureal
null is everyone else but notably devil
scumlean is merlyn rce and cakez
scum is penguin and snivy

?

[meowmeow]

you are truly a master at being scummy

how do you forget a read like that? i mean i get forgetting posts but aren't reads just like, idk, in your brain and integral to how you view other players

[meowmeow]

i almost wanted to townread it but i think that's overthinking

do you have any scum games? something from another site is fine

[meowmeow]

i mean it definitely makes sense to forget about a read you don't care about or believe in and just made for the sake of looking towny

i tend to associate that with scum, but shrug i guess it's not far-fetched that snivy would make a townlean like that?

[meowmeow]

well personally i was just sleeping

[meowmeow]

Oh I forgot to respond to this.

i think marci hasn't really been scummy, and there have been things i found town indicative. i'm not really interested in pressuring there to get a better read, because i think marci tends to react really badly to pressure and it makes the game messier and isn't necessarily actually helpful (sorry marci)

she's a hard slot to read because she tends to play in a more actively pro-town way as scum but reading her that way just means if she tries to like play to her wincon and stuff she gets punished for it which feels bad. i think the best approach is to read her mostly normally but keep in mind she can and often does stuff as town which most people find scummy. it's a hard balance to strike because it's not like the meta is super reliable at all but i don't think reading her normally is that likely to work either

it's probably worth noting that roden said earlier he townreads marci for slaying, which means scum marci is more likely to go out of her way to slay in this game?

I cannot wrap my head around what this is trying to say about how to read marci. Don't pressure her. Read her 'normally' (whatever that is) but

don't

read her 'normally'. What do we do? This explanation makes me feel like we're just not supposed to try.

The defense kind of contradicts themselves saying they act townie as scum.

I think it’s a fair assessment, and more of a buddy defense in the sense they are familiar with Marci and wanted to kind of wait and see.

That’s how I am with RCE, tbh, or I’d have full on went for the 1v1, but i don’t really mind shading there for now.

Yeah I noticed the contradictions. The whole paragraph just confuses me. If she plays pro-town as scum what does playing to her win condition mean other than being anti-town?

I agree with your conclusion though, that meow is someone familiar with Marci wanting to wait rather than a buddy trying to protect her. I just wish she could give better insight in regard to what to do rather than what not to do. Like, in response to my post meow says she doesn't want to vote Marci unless she thinks Marci is scum and wants her dead. But how do we get to that read?

i mean, you sort people by thinking about what's more likely to come from town or scum. just do that, except if the thought goes along the lines of "this is blatantly anti-town, i don't think town would do something like this" i think it's best to disregard that because she consistently gets miseliminated for similar reasons, and that's all i know. i'm not some kind of marci super-expert, i don't have like amazing meta tells that can exactly tell you her alignment, i have just seen her get miseliminated a lot and know she acts like limbait as town. i'm not sure what more i'm supposed to be saying here.

i'm not sure what you mean by the pro-town thing, but to explain my original post; i think generally speaking as scum she is more likely to be active and, like, play in a way that people tend to townread. i don't really want to read her that way because it means if she tries to do good things she gets scumread for it and if she yells at people she gets townread for it and that seems bad

[meowmeow]

snivy what is your marci read

[meowmeow]

snivy I have decided not to hop on your wagon after much deliberation

let's get this penguin

VOTE: penguinpower

he

is

capable of doing more than this as scum, but looking at this game it's like night and day. and disregarding the whole meta thing, i don't like his posts anyway - i still don't like getting prodded, poking people to vote, and leaving, and i don't like coming in to fight with sircakez in retaliation for his vote and then when cakez retracts that just retreating back into the icy wilderness.

[meowmeow]

merlyn, who would you rather vote than snivy if wagons weren't a consideration?

[meowmeow]

UNVOTE:

hi i've read some of the game already. wanted to clear something up--eliminations are good for town and town-directed kills are good for town. if a townie gets killed with sacrifice they probably would've been eliminated later, and otherwise we get a cop guilty. i feel confident we want to use sacrifice twice this game. maybe there's a catch but we can only go off of the information we have.

we disagree a bit on who's scum, some of us thought that devil were scummy early on but that could be some of drew's confident personality. meow is maybe our biggest scumread tbh, but maybe that's best to address later anyway.

we have no particular desire to eliminate any of the current biggest wagons, so time to read up i guess.

i don't really disagree with sacrifice in principle, but I'm also fine just finding the amount of scum right now, and like... if we do sacrifice i think we should decide who it is beforehand rather than just give that power to the people who vote sacrifice

i think I'd like to address your read on me now! i don't really see what the point in being coy about it is supposed to be if you're town

[meowmeow]

if we do sacrifice I'd be fine with doing it on random nurse, since we don't have anything else to sort that slot with

[meowmeow]

i mean, i'd like to hear more about what's so awkward here, particularly regarding the pp read which i still believe in, but if your focus is elsewhere while you're catching up we can talk about that later

[meowmeow]

i think i've acknowledged penguin does that as town too; what bothered me is getting prodded, telling people to do something, and then leaving. and then coming back when he gets voted, doing a bit of verbal sparring, and then leaving again. pp isn't a wall poster but he does more than this as town very regularly; I've recently linked an example in this thread. i don't think i've been unclear about this read and i'm skeptical of the push here - i understand you're catching up but i imagine you will have searched for penguin in my iso before asking that?

the csf thing is less scummy to me because i don't think that was a good push anymore but like, i am not sure when you expected me to recognise a misunderstanding or why scum me would behave differently, and i think unvoting there is fine and am pretty confused why you are pushing on that specifically

[meowmeow]

amendment to the pp thing - it's wrong to say he left in the middle, what i remembered from that time is that upon returning he didn't really say anything of substance which is true but there wasn't a massive timestamp difference between that and him defending himself. i don't think it changes my point

[meowmeow]

i didn't really get the impression it was a gut read but your behaviour does make more sense in that context so shrug

[meowmeow]

i hope marci answers my questions. i suppose it'd be somewhat karmatic if she didn't but i'm a cat which i think should earn me points

No idea

I still think Merlyn might've TMI'd you and Devil and I think her way of reading you is too clinical. Overconfidence is NAI for you, in my experience how townie you are depends on how hard you hit the slay button. But I can also tell that our back and forth was going nowhere and it's better if I just disengage and observe for now.

You/Aureal/Devil/RC are my town reads right now, CSF/Leaf/Meow/Nurse/Penguin/Cakes are in my null stew pile, Merlyn/Snivy are under my watchful eye.

I don't think merlyn was all that scummy so far. She was pretty higher on my townreads list, though I do see spots where I think she could possibly be faking ignorance. I thought most of her stuff seemed genuine enough that I wanted to ignore that, I think shes one of the main people pushing the game "the direction they want", so I thought they couldn't be scum.
Aurueal isn't exactly a townread for me anymore, but isn't a scumread. Does it make sense? I think they dropped off.

How isn't meow a townread? I think they seemed pretty engaged in the game since the second they replaced in.

how strongly would you say you townread engagement normally?

also what's your read on flavor leaf / cakes rn?

[meowmeow]

i meant at the bottom of that post

i went looking through you and snivy and cakez and i don't really think i want any of you three but i had a couple of questions about your posts which might help me get a better read

[meowmeow]

on the surface level i agree sacrifice is the best we have. it's just loyal vig which is much better than, like, someone's vote gets to be worth 1.33x, or whatever

i'm pretty suspicious of the way the rules are worded with how mafia get their power though - sacrifice stands out for being free and it really isn't weak enough to justify that compared to like, mayor or whatever. so i think it's likely there is some kind of hidden drawback to it. it's true that we have no idea what that might be and i don't think it totally invalidates sacrifice as a choice but it makes me more worried than i otherwise would be

fwiw i agree with the read that marci's pivot against fl is like... well it's strange but it doesn't feel especially scummy to me, because it's just poking at fl in such a strange way that i'm not sure scum marci needs to or wants to. town doesn't necessarily have much need to do it either, but i think scum is usually more cautious about things like that, and i think town marci is like, a bit limbaity and prone to doing things people don't understand that get her voted

i definitely understand the hesitation re: her cakez read a lot more and like, again i think i've seen something similar from town marci in the pick your power game, but if i hadn't i might be on that too

marci pls don't call ppl names

[meowmeow]

how strongly would you say you townread engagement normally?

also what's your read on flavor leaf / cakes rn?

I READ BASED OFF OF COLD HARD VIBES
engagement? does not matter IT DEPENDS ALL ON THE VIBES OF WHAT YOU SAY YKNOW YKNOW SOMETIMES THOSE VIBES JUST AINT GOOD! i dont even remember what i was thinking at the time of the post youre quoting! but i think it was just that nothing seemed ulterior motives or some shit like that.

i think honestly out of flavor leaf and cakez i would rather go flavor leaf because i think theyre bsing their posts, and the switch from cakez onto me just felt like too fast of a switch. but also i like my cakez wagon because it pisses so many people off. i dont know if i even fully trust that flavor leaf is scum or if im blinded there and theyre just an idiot! but i think theyll be in for a fun surprise later on!
cakez has been meh, it hasnt really improved too much in my opinion.

any other questions?

the engagement answer is fine i think?

w/ cakez is it like, pissing people off is the MISSION or is his mehness supposed to be like... a negative statement and not a neutral statement? maybe i'm bad at reading but i'm not sure

[meowmeow]

i am still cautious of rce. i have more tolerance for him not posting since it was just like, he was active earlier, so it's probably just a temporary thing? maybe town leaning on the wagons like snivy and marci is something i like, but i'd like him to be clearer on if he's voting fl out of principle or if he's like really trying to lim leaf day 1 or whatever

i don't think i ever actually did the rce meta that i was going to do and i probably should

[meowmeow]

yeah

she was scum in lost and mafia invictus, in the completed large theme sections

fwiw she does do some of the same stuff as scum, although i think it's pretty different? it's conceivable marci would be posting here with her meta in mind? the part i'm, like, actually confident in is saying marci is limbaity as town and does this stuff as town which is why i'm mostly bringing up the town games. she could conceivably be scum, i don't want to clear her for any of the stuff people are scumreading her for, but i don't think it's a good idea to actually scumread her for that either imo

[meowmeow]

Does sacrifice give us alignment too?

i mean indirectly? it's like trial by water. if they survive they're a witch

pedit: shrug, not really sure what to say except i think her treatment of the cakez read is pretty limbaity and if me and roden weren't talking about the meta or whatever i think it would have got more heat

[meowmeow]

fwiw i am a bit concerned that the deal with sacrifice is that scum can prevent whoever it is from dying, and if they do they get a free elimination the next day which i think works better for them

shrug

[meowmeow]

i guess i don't mind using it on fl that much if he doesn't mind it, but I'll iso him again first and maybe that'll help? he's definitely a difficult read. i wanted to lean scum earlier? the pivots seem towny for most people but i think scum fl pivots for breakfast. i guess probably the key is testing how genuine i think the marci read is? my instinct is to say it's fine and put fl around null, because i scumread town marci in my first game with her - hopefully this is vague enough to not matter much.

i'm going to bed now - i will make a proper response to devil later, but i guess what i'm thinking is that i'd like to know why you think town cakes wouldn't behave that way

[meowmeow]

what

[meowmeow]

fwiw i am a bit concerned that the deal with sacrifice is that scum can prevent whoever it is from dying, and if they do they get a free elimination the next day which i think works better for them

shrug

That would seem to indicate a mod lie.

This setup will feel reeeeeeeally bad if scum get roleblocks like that when town already seems to not have a lot of power.

i hope the idea is we will get better powers late game, but it's like definitely possible that isn't it? i'm mostly guessing because it's free and it shouldn't be and that's the most intuitive answer to me

i would have guessed the mod lie would happen after mafia triggered that effect and not before, but i guess i'm not certain how that works

[meowmeow]

i think roden is probably my top townread and i have no idea what's going on with the fl push or why it stopped

i didn't really get the impression the situation was over either

i don't really remember fl's scum game featuring that much ate? but that was years ago and maybe it's changed. i probably need to go meta fl which is zzz cos he has like 2k posts a game

[meowmeow]

i got my laptop back yippee

@fl yes, i do see why you scumread her, but we just have a very different approach to scumhunting. i'm well aware that we've been townreading a lot of level 0 scummy things, and we do need to decide on a lim pretty soon. we just have a feeling that people like you, meow, or devil are scum controlling the narrative and it's part of why we don't love the biggest wagons right now. we'll finish catching up and decide on a vote tomorrow.

What did you mean by those people are controlling the narrative? I feel like devil & FL have been pushing in different directions from meow

one or more scum players is having an outsized influence on the narrative is probably a better way to put it.

i really don't like this post - it's such a specific feeling for something so like, nebulous. it's at least true most people seem to townread me, but the idea i have control over some kind of narrative feels weird; i was opposed to the three leading wagons for most of the game, including when infinity made this post. like, the leading wagons are snivy, marci and cakez, none of whom i have ever voted or pushed for - why would a feeling i might be pushing a pro-scum narrative make you want to vote for them less, or not more? snivy voted penguin, but for his own reasons; i've never particularly felt like my opinions are being listened to or followed, except a bit of mechanics stuff. similarly, devil has a lot of posts - most of which are mechanic-y or shitpost-y - i don't think they have a lot of control over the game at all. fl could conceivably be driving the narrative, because he's loud and the thread kind of follows what he does, but neither of the other reads make any sense to me and i'm really not sure how you get a 'feeling' for something which is such, like, an arbritary and complex concept, or how you get to that feeling in the first place?

i think roden is probably my top townread

ooh interesting why

i think he's the only slot where there's nothing that would raise my eyebrows. i think all his posting makes sense coming from a townie mindset, and he's engaging with his townreads in a way i like. to be more specific - i liked him having me in his null pile, because i think some people were townreading me too easily at that point and him being like "i haven't had a moment where they did anything super town" just seemed, like, appropriately skeptical as i expect town to be, whereas scum aren't as paranoid since they already know everything. and his interactions with me felt good, he seemd to take what i said into account, like when i said i suspect aureal he went back to iso her again. i also thought his interactions w/ cakez feel pretty sorty

i don't understand why we're compromising on someone who has just replaced in and is very active, even if you don't think i obvtowned already it will probably be easy to read me at some point

why do you think it'll be easy to read you? i remember reading a game a while back in which you were scum with meg in trust fall and won p easily, i wasn't under the impression your alignment would become super obvious at any point

[meowmeow]

if you mean you've like said this before as town, could i get a link to that

[meowmeow]

UNVOTE:

i don't think i want to eliminate someone else but there is negative urgency in plurality and we have time to talk to the random nurse slot / infinity in the meantime - i'd be open to changing my mind maybe

[meowmeow]

neither am i tbh, i think i've played plurality before but it's definitely not something i'm used to

i'd be curious how i come off to other people tbh. like do i seem like an experienced player. maybe that's more of a postgame thing tho

@infinity i know you mentioned mind melding but could you maybe be more explicit on how your read on me changed? also if you have time i'd like to hear about csf and aureal - they shouldn't take too long given their placement in your list and are both slots where i haven't given them quite as much thought

if you're town hopefully this would be useful even if we eliminate you since i am very open to input on those two also

[meowmeow]

Well I guess the scum reads track if snivy thinks penguin hasn't done anything towny (believable)

Why is aureal so high though?

i guess i just really liked how she was trying to coordinate the mech of the setup at the start

her reads of the game seem pretty good too

do you think scum will have an especially difficult time making mechanical posts?

[meowmeow]

idk maybe it is snivy? i think the thing about him i feel the towniest about is the fl townread making more sense from a town pov than a scum pov, and then just his tone sounds relaxed and towny to me

i'm not entirely sure the second thing isn't a play style thing? but he just does seem like pretty unconcerned with survival and getting townread or whatever. he has that one third party game, but there's not a lot for me to compare this to for evaluation

i think forgetting his read on me & the scumreads being penguin and cakez being easy and giving out that easy townread to aureal are decent reasons to suspect him

probably i would rank the wagons infy > snivy > marci = cakez right now. do marci and cakez count as wagons anymore? they can have like... belated wagon status

[meowmeow]

i think scum tend to bus more often than not as a matter of course so I'd happily accept that could be happening here

i think there are maybe other possibilities - like if nurse is scum that limits what mafia can do realistically - but i would at least agree this isn't a devil/infy/merlyn scum team doing a hail mary on a snivy wagon

pedit: oh btw, when you say snivy will get sorted by you as the game goes on, don't you think you might get killed? you've said that happens a lot

[meowmeow]

yeah that's hammer

i don't really see the point given that it's plurality and we could still talk to the rn replacement but shrug it's not exactly the end of the world, there were only 10 hours left and the replacement can read up at night

[meowmeow]

if infinity flips red i will give you all gifts in the form of mice

humans like that right?

[meowmeow]

i'm fine with the 'torture flavor leaf' idea i think

HURT: trading post because i think recount is good and would like to do it at some point. when we do decide to do it, i think we should use the plurality mechanics to limit the amount of people on the wagon; the 'is there at least 1 scum in this group' thing is more helpful that way

i'm actually not sure which day the 'last day' thing is referring to, but if it means d1/n1, wiretap could be interesting. like, if there's tons of posts or no posts, that kind of implicates different people

VOTE: deal with the devil

@flavor leaf; when drew says he considers you 'locktown', given your past plays as scum & your reputation, do you think this is something he is especially likely to believe? is it possible he's leaning into the idea that scum him wouldn't townread you a little too much?

i can't be certain this isn't like a coincidence but in retrospect it feels a little off alianna came in strongly after drew started getting heat. for my part, i think alianna is probably more difficult to read than drew? i've seen the chatgpt mini theme in which she comes off like a pretty great scum player. and drew's pushes seem mostly fabricated to me - eg 1183 which reads like he's tailoring the reasoning to fit the conclusion for the cakez read because it doesn't really address any idea of why town cakez might be frustrated or respond to fl's push the way he did. it kind of makes sense as a thing to think if you're looking through the lens of "why does this make cakez scum" but given devil's position before this - being sus of fl and not really of cakez - i think it's + scum for them. i'm also not really sure why drew called out infinity for saying alianna 'seemed towny' in 1435

[meowmeow]

hi there, im gonna make a vote

VOTE: RCEnigma

HURT: Torture

doubting the leaf read too

i'd be interested to hear your rce thoughts

[meowmeow]

i actually think it's pretty towny for snivy to say he's doubting the leaf read? it's not something i really see the point of from an angle of 'snivy is scum pocketing fl' or 'snivy is scum with fl and they are super scumchat besties'

[meowmeow]

why didn't anyone get NK? My first immediate thought is that they need money to do it and didn't get enough for whatever reason. We spent 30 out of 60k, so either a) not using our full budget is irrelevant or b) an NK costs more than 30K.

given the fact there are 4 scum, does the lack of kill feel strange to you?

[meowmeow]

i would get it from an angle of 'fl is a good scum player but from what i've seen i lean town on him'

i think rushing into the 'locktown' portion of the read, when i'm not really sure what justifies the 'lock' portion of it, feels sort of informed. i think generally town are more paranoid with things like this

it might change my view a bit if drew has a track record of reading you accurately?

[meowmeow]

ok i got confirmation that projects apply to the same day they're used. so we don't need to worry about setting up votes for recount today

[meowmeow]

yeah i mean, locktown in common usage doesn't mean they're 100% sure you're town, it means a very confident townread where you don't see yourself ever changing your mind outside of extraordinary evidence like a cop guilty

i'm questioning, based on what they've said about you and my general knowledge of you as a player, if it's realistic for them to reach that read so quickly on d1. and i don't really think it is?

to ask more directly - you play a lot of games with a lot of posts and it'd be difficult for me to retrieve this information manually - how good of a record does drew have against you, scum you especially?

[meowmeow]

i don't know about that. it seems pretty clear to me that devil had a strong townread on fl d1, especially towards the end of the day? they called him 'obvtown' in addition to that

[meowmeow]

like the trajectory to me seems to be: early d1, sus of fl -> mid d1, townread fl but with room for doubt -> late d1, heavy townread on fl

that's not an inherently bad progression at all, but given who fl is as a player and the reasons i've seen, it's not a read i'm convinced by. i have other reasons to be suspicious of the devil slot as well and think they're a good push for the start of d2 at least

[meowmeow]

I do like the video of Census, but probably better for a later day, Torture seems like the way to go for today....those are good odds. But I will let Alianna chime in and make the final call for us.

Meow, 1435 was a commentary on the flip flop from Infinity.....seemed like they folded way too easily on our scum read.....didn't seem genuine.

don't you like, sometimes scumread someone, and then something they say seems towny?

And Re: The Cakez post that people keep referencing(can't remember the post number), part of the read was an ongoing game that has just finished where, IIRC, they posted a lot like that when under pressure.

mm that's fair

And obviously when I say 'FL is locktown', I am not saying I will never ever ever vote him. But I have seen him make and almost identical entrance into a game (not exactly the same, in the other game he basically posted memes on D1 and the on D2 is when he started really playing). I have also seen him as scum enter a game and be completely different.

So ya, this is classic townFL imo.....unless there is hard evidence or someone can make a really fucking good case for him as scum. Flavor is definitely a good Mafia player, but he isn't some crazy unreadable chameleon lol.

i understand what you're saying here in broad strokes, but how much experience do you have with fl? like, i think this read is more believable if you have seen a strong pattern of him coming in like this as town and not as scum, but like replacing in and being initially distant definitely seems to me like something town fl is incredibly capable of doing?

[meowmeow]

At end of day, if someone last minute changes messing up balance on Trading Post and Torture, that’s effectively a scum claim

i mean... we can do both? doing trading post and torture, i mean? how is trading post going to prevent that?

[meowmeow]

i think 3 is the most likely answer, but the mod makes a point of making it ambiguous whether or not the mafia actually have a factional kill which i think implies it's more likely they *don't* have one

i think it could pretty easily be 4 as a result of that

it at least seems more likely that this is the case than the mod lied about projects funding the mafia

I don’t necessarily love the way that Meow talks looking back on Day 1.

This is an example of Meowmeow seeming kind of TMI imo.

There’s a lot of posts Meow makes where it looks like they’re wrangling the gamestate how they wanted with by using their reads, in a way that looks very townie early in the game, but reading their ISO back, it looks kind of like they’re trying to keep the game going the way they want it.

Does anyone have experience with ScumMeow? Are they normally decently town read as scum?

i don't think it's tmi, it's a pretty natural idea to follow from reading the rules posts. as i'm sure you're aware, it is not common at all for mods to say something like "teehee scum might not have a kill! i mean maybe they do! who knows" and from there 4 scum being a possibility is pretty natural. mountainous nightless for example is regularly 9:4

i don't think i did much gamestate wrangling personally!

[meowmeow]

I think Devil’s being targeted because them and I found each other as town, and Meow’s subtly been trying to break it up.

i think if i'm scum and i'm that worried about you and devil townreading each other, there isn't really any need for me to do that. telling you your reads are wrong is not going to be particularly effective in breaking a townbloc or whatever; generally with psychology you want to let people get paranoid and convince themselves they're wrong anyway. i would love it if you did agree with me on devil, because it would make the game feel a lot less stalemate like, but i don't really expect that; i'm mostly just trying to gauge your experience with him and why this is happening and if I'm right to suspect it

personally i'm not interested in scumteam guessing right now. it seems a lot more realistic to find one red and kill them. i think devil is the best bet at that right now. and while i'm open to change my mind, i haven't really seen anything that makes me want to do that

[meowmeow]

re: my altness; i think being a secret alt is kind of fun, but it's not the point for me really; I'm much more trying to change the way i play and engage to be healthier for me. i would be surprised if meta reading me would be effective because i think the way i'm playing is significantly different to what it would usually be

[meowmeow]

why didn't anyone get NK? My first immediate thought is that they need money to do it and didn't get enough for whatever reason. We spent 30 out of 60k, so either a) not using our full budget is irrelevant or b) an NK costs more than 30K.

given the fact there are 4 scum, does the lack of kill feel strange to you?

The lack of kill is interesting- I don't see a world where a scum team decides that they won't kill N1, so it's worth trying to figure out what went wrong. The number doesn't really change my thoughts on that though, what were you thinking on that part?

the scum team having 4 members makes them much much more powerful. given the fact our powers are... not really that good, i think mafia not having a fictional kill, or probably a more limited one they couldn't use tonight, makes a lot of sense. i was kind of trying to gauge your thought process as to why you sounded surprised at the no kill

[meowmeow]

i think merlyn not knowing how the sacrifice works is +town tho or at least she's probably not aligned with mech heavy players

[meowmeow]

i understand what you're saying here in broad strokes, but how much experience do you have with fl? like, i think this read is more believable if you have seen a strong pattern of him coming in like this as town and not as scum, but like replacing in and being initially distant definitely seems to me like something town fl is incredibly capable of doing?

i feel like this is more indicative on townFL, but end of the day, kinda NAI. i generally wait until something grabs me

i mean i've seen scum fl do this before. that's not really the problem, i think you should get tortured and i will sort you that way. i am more concerned with like why this line of thought is convincing drew i guess

[meowmeow]

In hindsight, this actually makes me scum read Meow harder considering I don’t believe I was ever making personality reasons for the reasons I was scum reading Marci, it was agenda related reasonings, and Meow’s defenses to Marci was ‘that’s just the way Marci is’

On top of that, secret alts don’t really get to use meta and expect it to be taken as a reason.

I believe Meow was blanket defending Marci, even if Marci ends up being town here.

I can’t say for sure about the rest, but I am highly feeling Meow/Aureal scum team.

uh, are secret alts some sort of thing that's beneath you now? that's new for you. i think what i was saying about marci is like incredibly easily verifiable if you look at any of her games which are publicly available, and i don't think my read of marci vs what drew said about you share like... any similarities at all, beyond the involvement of a meta read. really not a fan of this push from fl

asking in advance, if we torture you and it fails, will you accept dying or will you try to squirm out of it?

again, it's not really the point of this alt, so if it's something people actually care about, my main account is ausuka.

[meowmeow]

So yeah, if you're town and you're reading FL town too, I don't know how you're going to argue that it's not still good for gamestate to know for sure. In my eyes anyone who starts to argue against it is someone to watch closely.

I wouldn't have been advocating for using Sacrifice on FL here either. Because I'm townreading him. That whole discussion was not something I ever agreed with so there's nothing for him to 'wiggle out of' as far as I'm concerned. Setting up chains of flips based on having a wrong read isn't a healthy state for town.

What I want to know here is: who is actually scumreading FL? I think that's the important factor here. Please raise your hand if you support this because

you

actually don't trust Flavor Leaf rather than because of some perceived sentiment that other people don't so may as well go along with it because we were gonna use sacrifice anyway or something.

raises hand

[meowmeow]

I have no idea what it does for my range, but definitely not out of your scum range.

I think overtime, I’ll be able to town read Meowmeow correctly if they’re town.

To be fair, most of my last few pages, and my whole pink tier push has really been to solve Meowmeow anyways.

what does "I have no idea what it does for my range" mean?

also, it's even true that i can get townread as scum, but i don't think the ausuka you were familiar with would have been able to play like this so i'm wondering why you think that?

[meowmeow]

i mean, if you have to put me with a scumteam, there's nothing *wrong* with saying it's merlyn and marcistar and aureal or whatever. like from an outside perspective it would be possible for me to be scum with any of these people. i don't think there's much gained taking this kind of approach though and not sure what you're seeing if town, regarding how it helps sorting

like, all of your interactions with aureal in particular with me are confusing. marci i can kind of get? ironically, there

could

actually be a parallel with the drew situation, in that i think it's possible you wanted that miselimination available because it's easy to make a 'logical' case there and you wouldn't likely get much flak from it, but i also think it's possible for town you to just feel that way. like, i have miseliminated marcistar more than once.

but aureal? you're 'pushing' there and voting for her but you haven't like really given anything, except she doesn't want you to be tortured, but you also said that about marci and most of your talking about her is just like, 'oh she could be scum with meow'. like, you've done the mechanical disagreement reads a lot on d2 which i don't vibe with and i don't really get what this approach to aureal does?

[meowmeow]

speaking of aureal


@aureal; how did you get to townreads on me and fl? right now, we have 12 alive, so for town players 4/11 of people are scum, and that's not far from half of everyone. and 1552 seemed to indicate you thought i could be scum, but just didn't think that world was likely enough to push me in that moment. you say you agreed with us on stuff; what would you say those things were, that made you think scum wouldn't say that? (i'm not sure how useful it is sorting wise, but i think fl is *less likely* to do ate - i said as much at the time, i think he likes to have fun with it if he can - but think it could easily be maf!fl feeling frustrated at marci in a genuine way)

[meowmeow]

i mean, if you have to put me with a scumteam, there's nothing *wrong* with saying it's merlyn and marcistar and aureal or whatever. like from an outside perspective it would be possible for me to be scum with any of these people. i don't think there's much gained taking this kind of approach though and not sure what you're seeing if town, regarding how it helps sorting

like, all of your interactions with aureal in particular with me are confusing. marci i can kind of get? ironically, there

could

actually be a parallel with the drew situation, in that i think it's possible you wanted that miselimination available because it's easy to make a 'logical' case there and you wouldn't likely get much flak from it, but i also think it's possible for town you to just feel that way. like, i have miseliminated marcistar more than once.

but aureal? you're 'pushing' there and voting for her but you haven't like really given anything, except she doesn't want you to be tortured, but you also said that about marci and most of your talking about her is just like, 'oh she could be scum with meow'. like, you've done the mechanical disagreement reads a lot on d2 which i don't vibe with and i don't really get what this approach to aureal does?

I’ve already said my entire purpose right now was to figure your slot out.

Everything I’ve done was completely by design, including the nothing on Aureal.

Do I have reasons, yes, but I’m more interested in what happened to gamestate after

ok well, i don't really see how exactly that solves my slot

do i know devil is scum? obviously not. i have reasons to suspect they're scum, as i've gone over already, but i don't think i'm confident in anyone's alignment right now. a massive proportion of the playerlist is just like, 'i don't know who's scum' which is just like, yeah i don't know who is scum either. we kind of have to guess? and i feel like there's practically zero movement going on right now. if you're not presenting aureal as a serious alternative, and obviously hate the devil wagon, i mean where do you expect the gamestate to go? it probably keeps going nowhere until we lim devil if they're town or we flop onto some other random slot if devil is scum.

so i mean, what am i to do? i would like other people to push wagons and create a gamestate where i can like read people more effectively but this doesn't seem likely to happen!

[meowmeow]

ok whatever let's experiment

VOTE: sircakez

[meowmeow]

actually, since flavor leaf has appointed me as being responsible for the entire gamestate, i think that makes me the mayor of this town

therefore i have the authority to become a leader and make demands for the good of utopia, revealing the identities of the most vile insurgents who seek to ruin our perfect society where we have witch hunts and are totally the good guys and the flavour is about how good we are

i demand everyone give an ordered reads list. everyone. anyone who doesn't do it, uh... well i still want to torture flavour leaf today but we'll sacrifice you on day 3 or something so look forward to that. also i'm super nice and a cat so if you don't do it that's just a little bit rude actually. flavour leaf can be exempt from this because he gives a read list every 5 seconds without prompting.

here is mine;
hu tao, merlyn, snivy

Marcistar!!!!

cat scratch fever, rcenigma
aureal, enchant, flavour leaf, sircakez
devil drew

[meowmeow]

oh, btw, someone will need to clue me in on why this is apparently enchant's town meta

if anything i'm feeling the opposite

[meowmeow]

wow, i proclaimed myself as mayor and now everyone is giving me the silent treatment

anyway @aureal, sorry to ask you three things at once, but i noticed you were calling me 'she' earlier. i don't think we're that familiar with each other, but if you were like, scum with marci (or maybe someone else? i think marci would be the most likely to realise who i am) i imagine you would have been able to find out about who i am pretty quickly. but that's reachy, so; is there like a reason you opted for that? i realise it might seem like a trivial point, and like maybe it is lmao, but it stood out to me since i don't think anyone else was doing that

[meowmeow]

shrug, i understand like, the words you are saying, i just don't understand the thought process behind it

i'm not sure this is that productive since you want to be tortured and i want to torture you and i'm not going to push for your elimination today, and like you clearly don't want to explain this to me and i'm not going to be able to change your mind on the whole 'do nothing' thing. shrug, i just hope if you're town this ends up being worth it

[meowmeow]

merlyn and aureal are both playing behind Meowmeow. it's either a ringleader support on meowmeow, or trying to stay on townMeow's good side.

i'm not seeing this right now? or i guess i just don't think the game revolves around me in this way

i can see scum like making efforts to pocket me as a part of a larger strategy, although i'd need like more specific evidence that's what's going on, or just townreading me because i make a lot of posts and are hard to push i guess but like... yeah i don't really see these people specifically as 'playing behind' me

[meowmeow]

Cakez and Enchant while I wouldnt bet the game on them being town, has had a mixture of seeming like having no agenda, kinda existing, but then when they do a few things, it comes across townie.

Like i really dont think Enchant pushes or leans scum on me here as scum after last time. it feels more like townie Enchant.

Cakez back and forth on me gamestate from Day 1 looked like scum were trying to take advantage of Cakez vs FL.

i don't really agree with either of these reads atp

i'm generally not a massive fan of gamestate reads in general admittedly but like, i haven't really liked cakez end of day 1 and d2 at all

and i'm not really sure where enchant pushes you, i think that just doesn't happen. the closest thing is 1835 but that's just super vague

to be fair enchant probably will be sortable eventually, i just don't think he's really done town enchant things yet and not sure what you're seeing

pedit: meow

[meowmeow]

Meow has now moved onto SirCakez, which I find odd.

i was expecting people to like actually react to that in a way they just didn't lmao

i think it's a better vote than merlyn right now! as far as i can tell your logic there is just "she's pushing me because i caught the scumteam" which seems to be, like, a major leap. i'm not sure why you think she can't just be... suspicious of you, especially since the likely end result of that push in a s!merlyn t!fl world would be... you being confirmed as town and not dying, which seems like pretty counterproductive if she's afraid of your immense flavour power

[meowmeow]

oh, there's also the 'shadowing meow' thing but i'm not really sure where that's coming from either or why she can't just townread me like most people have been doing throughout the entire game? i certainly don't think like, aureal has been shadowing me, so i presume it just means townread

and like, if it means anything more than that... she scumreads snivy and i think snivy is town. i scumread devil and she thinks devil is town. like, again, i just don't see what's behind any of this

[meowmeow]

speaking of aureal

@aureal; how did you get to townreads on me and fl? right now, we have 12 alive, so for town players 4/11 of people are scum, and that's not far from half of everyone. and 1552 seemed to indicate you thought i could be scum, but just didn't think that world was likely enough to push me in that moment. you say you agreed with us on stuff; what would you say those things were, that made you think scum wouldn't say that? (i'm not sure how useful it is sorting wise, but i think fl is *less likely* to do ate - i said as much at the time, i think he likes to have fun with it if he can - but think it could easily be maf!fl feeling frustrated at marci in a genuine way)

Pretty sure I've made note of my reasoning before, but I've agreed with a lot of things the both of you have said. Like that time where I was doing a catch-up without reading ahead first and posted something and then I get to like the next post and there you were, saying the same thing I'd just said (except actually before I said it). And I've mentioned that I believe in Leaf's meta argument that he wouldn't act like he did with marci as scum. That whole sequence with him arguing with her and then Roden felt very organically like him trying to solve and getting carried away.

i noted that in my post! i just wanted a bit more detail out of the read? like, what posts are you referring to that you think scum meow wouldn't write

and i mean idk with the marci stuff don't you think scum fl could have been genuinely frustrated with marci? like i don't think he was like going out of his way to appeal to emotion in that situation but i've seen before that he can get heated as scum and like... i def understand how you could townlean that sequence for fl but i don't get such a high level of confidence?

[meowmeow]

I’d go to bat for Marci or Meow today, especially learning meow is Ausuka I’ll double down even harder.

can i ask why?

[meowmeow]

I should say bus.

But yeah, you're grasping at straws with this wiggle thing, Merlyn.

Feels like it's all you got.

lol okay. Well, I'm fine with going first today if town does decide to follow your lead here. But I want you to go next then.

not sure if this is scum trying to be ballsy enough to appear town

Feels rather like it to me. Town

can

get defiant and want to 1v1, but the certainty of trying to bring someone else down with you is unwise and leans scum.

i understand why you'd call it unwise, and maybe write it off as not being towny, but not really the scummy part?

[meowmeow]

i'd like to hear thoughts about rce more since he seems to mostly be a consensus scumread and i'm a lot more like, ambivalent but would lean town if you pushed me

[meowmeow]

the marci wagon is meh

i don't particularly think she will flip scum here but i get it and i'm not going to flip out about it

marci if you're like willing to listen to me, i'd like to hear more about your thoughts on cakez and aureal?

[meowmeow]

and uh i guess it's not wrong that scum could maybe torture and kill fl? who knows how the kill mechanic works, if it even exists (it probably does)

tbh to me it doesn't feel like such a terrible outcome, and if that happens people will probably listen to fl's reads? but i guess it's a possible motive for scum merlyn shrug

pedit: i mean, if that happens... like they have 4 members and our powers are honestly really bad

like even torture has a pretty large risk of spectacular failure and that's the highlight of something we took a development project for

personally i'd happily take a power that was a little weaker but didn't have a 25% chance of failure but i don't think we have an option like that

[meowmeow]

im willing to pivot to RCE if enough people are up for it

ok but whyyyy

[meowmeow]

is what i'm trying to ask

[meowmeow]

My readlist:

Meow, CSF, devil
Marci, RCE
Hu Tao, Aureal
Snivy, FL

Can you explain your read on me? Or is it from who I replaced

I was a little higher on Roden, you just haven't done anything much since replacing in

I've never really played a game like this before that's themed. I've only really played regular mafia games. This is a bit overwhelming tbh.

i think it's fine if you mostly ignore the mech stuff and focus on reads, fwiw

[meowmeow]

and fwiw my thoughts on cakez are

- i was fine with most of his d1 posting, i didn't like strongly townread him but generally didn't like the wagon much
- i think without the prolonged pressure on him his posting has been a lot worse
- not really sure what he sees re: an agenda in infinity posting about the sacrifice ability? could see him as scum on that wagon i guess

- i think the profanity in response to the 4 scum reveal especially 1467 felt a little fake to me especially since he kinda clearly isn't invested in this game? just feels a bit over the top considering it seems like he shouldn't care that much.
- i don't like the comparative total lack of momentum after he stops getting pushed
- i think of cakez as not that much of a mechanically orientated player so i'm not a big fan of him delving into the mech d2 at the expense of other content

- i thought of the mech posts, 1484 was the most interesting but there are obvious issues in the implementation (eg deciding lims in advance) and his lack of like, really tackling that makes me think it's not that towny
- i think town can often do the 'oh i have no scumreads game hard' thing and i was townleaning it from cakez earlier but enough people are doing it this game that i don't really feel like buying into it right now
- in general, it can be difficult to differentiate between demotivated town and demotivated scum but i think cakez is worth looking at and considering how much he was a focus d1 i was surprised that most people haven't seemed interested d2 even after my vote which i thought might provoke discussion

[meowmeow]

i think marriage is arguably better since it doesn't take an extra phase to complete if the target is scum, although in practice i don't like the idea of deciding the lim for a day in advance at this stage. it might be more of a late game option

it's hard for me to imagine a power that is free *doesn't* have some sort of drawback on the other side especially since it is like really better than a lot of the other powers which do cost money in a vacuum but i guess i don't know that! i'd be willing to listen to an argument to use sacrifice over trding post today

[meowmeow]

i did! i think your comment on rce sort of resonated with me since i feel similarly, which is what prompted me to ask about him here. you just gave aureal a 'n' and i don't know like if you were just sick of playing at that point, but like i think aureal is an interesting slot with a relatively high probability to be scum so i would like to hear your thoughts there. same with cakez really. and i guess devil but i know any push there or even skepticism of their posts will just result in fl talking about how scum are breaking up the supertownbloc so if devil is scum they might have to come later

i think if people like scumread your posts you don't need to like stop reading that player, i think for most people reads are fluid and it's common for people to make reads that other ppl maybe don't like? fl and possibly drew seem to think my read on devil sucks and isn't coming from town but it's whatever! i stand by it

i think cakez's posts, like, after you stopped talking about that read are interesting and talked about them in 1891

[meowmeow]

Why do you want to organize the project votes (Torture and Trading Outpost) that way?

- Alianna

We just already have a lot on Torture, and I like the people on the Torture council as is.

It doesn’t have to be that way, but it just seemed like the easiest way to automatically get it, because in theory, Marci Scum could mess with it last minute and mess it all up.

i'm not really sure what scum marci is able to do here? like regardless the torture and trading post go through, the only difference is who you want on the torture council i guess but i think the outcome should be predetermined

i'm fine with being the target if we lim marci and she flips scum

[meowmeow]

i noted that in my post! i just wanted a bit more detail out of the read? like, what posts are you referring to that you think scum meow wouldn't write

I really don't have the energy to try to go back and figure this sort of thing at the moment, sorry. I don't know what 'scum meow' would write, but repeatedly thinking the same way is a pretty typical way to gain a townread on someone and I think I've noted several points where this has been the case.

and i mean idk with the marci stuff don't you think scum fl could have been genuinely frustrated with marci? like i don't think he was like going out of his way to appeal to emotion in that situation but i've seen before that he can get heated as scum and like... i def understand how you could townlean that sequence for fl but i don't get such a high level of confidence?

If you have specific examples I'll be happy to take a look. I said before that if it's not true then people here who are more familiar with him ought to be able to disprove it, so feel free to show me. I'm inclined to believe it because I feel like if I ever manage to get a scum PM again, Righteous Anger Mode is not something I'm going to really be able to use there so I can understand that someone else doesn't do that.

Do you expect that FL would be willing to bus a teammate here to get out of the torture action being used on him?

that's fine, you don't have to do it right now although i'd appreciate it if you did it at some point today? i'm just trying to like see if your reads are real to have. because i think townreading meow and fl is like an intuitive approach for scum to take, but if you explain your thought process and it makes total sense for town aureal to have the same view then it's not as scummy?

main thing that came to mind was this; i mean idk if that counts as ate in the sense i'm pretty sure he was like actually mad or whatever but i think if he's scum he can still get frustrated as marci or something. i'm not really sure how to think about this - it's intuitive to me that scum players feel things and are likely to get angry, eg if they're pushing a townie and they think that townie is being unfairly townread for doing nothing, but i'm not sure how to ask about your perspective in an effective way

i think fl would be willing to do that personally. from my experience with him, he likes playing as a team but is totally cool with bussing if it's convenient to winning - i've seen him do it. but if he's scum and bussing marcistar, that's like, uh cool i guess? i don't really think that's what's going on. i would have thought he maybe had an option open - you or maybe merlyn or rce? - if scum but then decided not to go ahead with it. i think if fl is scum, the thought process is people will want to torture him anyway and it's best to lean into it. and when the torture fails he's able to say he's town anyway and scum are taking advantage of it? this could also just be town fl though, while the push on marcistar is easy i don't think it's something town wouldn't do either

[meowmeow]

I’d go to bat for Marci or Meow today, especially learning meow is Ausuka I’ll double down even harder.

can i ask why?

I’m a sucker for slots that solidify town without commanding town to view the game the way they do. And day 1 I feel like town just kind of formed around you if that makes sense.

And now that I know you are Ausuka I know we have played a fair amount of games as same or opposite alignments in different configurations. I think I have a fair enough grasp on your scum playstyle (which could have changed in the last year for sure) but I think as scum you would be more comfortable getting yourself townread from a more passive position, over having the game rotate around you.

The caveat being that FL has kind of pushed the game that way over you bringing the gamestate to that position. Which is something to think about but not at the forefront of my sorting right now. More like something to consider after FL’s alignment is confirmed.

yeah i mean that totally makes sense from a perspective of your experience with me, i'm more so wondering how the things other people have said about my scum game in this thread affects your view?

i agree i wouldn't say my play has tried to make the game revolve around me, i think it's usually better when the games don't resolve around specific slots in any case

[meowmeow]

i think marriage is arguably better since it doesn't take an extra phase to complete if the target is scum, although in practice i don't like the idea of deciding the lim for a day in advance at this stage. it might be more of a late game option

it's hard for me to imagine a power that is free *doesn't* have some sort of drawback on the other side especially since it is like really better than a lot of the other powers which do cost money in a vacuum but i guess i don't know that! i'd be willing to listen to an argument to use sacrifice over trding post today

If it funds scum it will still do so it’s just delayed, 0$ for the day it’s used and then whatever amount they get out of the extra 20k that it gives town the following day. Not that we have to use the full amount but if the options are good enough we likely will.

i mean if it hits scum they get 0 and it's a guilty

idk the whole thing feels odd to me but i guess it's not impossible that there's no 'secret downside' to it?

[meowmeow]

HURT: Election Security

[meowmeow]

i think merlyn is townie and would prefer not to sacrifice her

i really don't get what's so scummy about her other than not going along with the fl lifestyle

[meowmeow]

i don't think it's that difficult to organise at all

just don't put people at e1 until you're ready to end the day

[meowmeow]

i do think this is more likely to be town enchant now too

i still think the marci lim is a mistake but shrug we will see

[meowmeow]

VOTE: Marcistar

I think this is good. She's skated by largely on tone so far, but I feel like she's just been coming in to argue against people's scumreads of her instead of trying to find scum

I don't even know that I would even say she's doing that much.

VOTE: marcistar

This is...true. But is it really alignment indicative? I mean, as scum she should know refusing to post reads draws suspicion to her, it's such a basic thing.

Marci doesn't even have a vote on anyone. Is it really likely that there are 3 other players in a PT with her somewhere and they're not asking her to at least try and get on a wagon?

The fact that game has slowed to a crawl and there's no one angling for a different lim makes me think that scum is content with this lim.
VOTE: Aureal I would be better with this lim than Marci

Hu Tao, why are you scum reading Marci?

You really seem to want to make sure Marci stays alive, you are really protecting her in all sorts of ways.

-

i like hate hate hate this post. like obviously merlyn doesn't think marci should be eliminated, that's obvious? it's just reiterating a fact and trying to paint it as malicious without really arguing why merlyn is scum

[meowmeow]

Oh I get what Enchant is saying

But bruh why didn't you bring it up earlier

Counterquestion: Why you didn't figure it yourself?

and these are the type of posts that add up to why you can never rally momentum even if you have the right read.

one of your weaker skills.

i reiterate that if we don't torture fl (if marci flips scum that's acceptable) or let him off if it fails i will be disappointed

his posting feels like he thinks he's already won and is trying to fortnite victory royale dance over our dead bodies

i mean i believe this post is 100% sincere and accurate but it just does not feel like a post from someone who believed enchantilada just scumslipped, which like i have no idea why he even thinks that

[meowmeow]

fwiw i am in ireland right now but will hopefully be back by the end of the night probably

[meowmeow]

i mean personally i think it's a scumslip 0% of the time? because scum enchant doesn't know any better than town enchant if we'll be using recount on town or scum tomorrow. and i think town can easily make the mechanical point like, oh if scum self hammers that ruins recount. personally i think it's still worthwhile to try it. i mean it's not perfect but it's broadly similar to the mechanic from The Coalition

i understand not liking negative vibes but personally i think i would lose most of my town games by following that!

[meowmeow]

maybe!

[meowmeow]

i mean obviously your negative vibes thing was a joke i don't actually think you go around eliminating people for vibes purposes
.the scumslip thing i'm not sure how else to interpret

[meowmeow]

it probably won't happen but if i die and marci is town please don't go after merlyn tomorrow

i think her posting is broadly sensible and doesn't look like tmi; scum probably is on the marci wagon. maybe 2 or 3? there will be scum off wagon too but i'm not feeling merlyn currently. maybe cakez

re: the scumslip thing; i don't particularly remember it but i can look at some fl towngames and if i see scumslip arguments there that i don't like i'll let it go

[meowmeow]

VOTE: SirCakez
HURT: Recount

Told you guys torture's flavor was bad. I'm guessing Leaf can't participate today.

They're predicting thunderstorms too now...and no one is even dead...maybe the Insurgents are actually the good guys?
Man, I sure hope the Overseer isn't reading this.

- Alianna

i think the insurgents are definitely the good guys flavour wise!

would be interested to hear what happened in the torture pt to the extent you can post that

[meowmeow]

i'm p willing to just say fl is town and just, if scum can sabotage torture, i mean whatever

VOTE: aureal

i'm sure fl is going to come in and push the votes wherever he wants but i like this for now

[meowmeow]

Why are we voting?

I thought the entire plan was to vote and recount to check.

consider it a pseudo thing? usually this early in the day you're not voting to kill imminently anyway

once we come to a consensus about who to lim, we can then decide who we want to be on the wagon

[meowmeow]

my thought was that we do a full wagon similar to the coalition

although thinking about it, the mechanic is a lot worse when you have this kind of ridiculous scum ratio

i'm fine with me and merlyn going on there i guess? i'll think about it more but i don't have any initial objections

i do kind of think there should maybe be some flexibility. since, depending on the deadline, if someone selfvotes/scumclaims, we could try and quickly switch the wagon and then eliminate that person tomorrow instead and use the recount today while we have election security - does that make sense?

[meowmeow]

Maybe I don't understand the mechanics of this game but why is no one dying at night?

No, you're not misunderstanding, we don't know why. The prevailing idea is that they need to get enough money to spend to do it (a billboard of their own basically) but we don't know for sure.

fl is probably right about the poisoner thing, based on what we know of our billboard. we can execute people, but with drawbacks; like sacrifice doesn't kill scum, assassination doesn't flip players, the whole thing with lovers etc. i expect scum similarly have a few options to kill, but none of them will be as simple as just kill i think

[meowmeow]

even as an aureal scumreader, i... do not get the tmi there

if anything, it would be too little information, since she was completely wrong about the impact of the torture

although she could just be playing dumb or the scum powers could be vague about what it does the day before? who knows

[meowmeow]

Enchant knows as scum that’s what they do, and it’s almost like a forced mimic of the play in that game, which is making me town read them, which just doesn’t sit right with me.

I’m kinda scum reading them because I’m town reading them

Cakez, Aureal, RCEnigma maybe, and then a deep wolf

I feel Merlyn would be the deep wolf, Alianna and I don't feel good about the end of day.

Also, this is totally scumEnchant.....don't overthink it.

-

would merlyn really be a 'deep wolf' here

[meowmeow]

i'm p willing to just say fl is town and just, if scum can sabotage torture, i mean whatever

VOTE: aureal

i'm sure fl is going to come in and push the votes wherever he wants but i like this for now

Did you reassess on your scumreads on Cakez and Devil from yesterday?

not really

i think they are both pretty likely to be scum here still

[meowmeow]

i also don't think anything about merlyn's progression into townreading marci eod was unnatural

[meowmeow]

i also don't like cakez entrance to d3

it feels like he's going to like... make an actual push on aureal? and then it just kind of fizzles out and he's like "fl we should be besties"

i support them being besties but it doesn't look fantastic alignment wise

[meowmeow]

Imagine waiting whole deadline.

Sick.

Anyway, there's not much we can do, so some math:
11p
7vs4

We execute me
6vs4

Then presuming there was two people voting me:

T+T= Confirms them. 3 conftowns can win game pretty easily, but it's dreamland.
T+I= Gotta be 1vs1. Wrong pick result in 5vs4 and probably lose.
I+I= No chance to error, but again it's evidence to execute 1 insurgent, not both.


And you want additionally try to sacrifice someone. And mafia probably can kill.

Yes. Good idea guys. Bring it.

ok so what are you proposing? what is the enchant gameplan to win this game?

[meowmeow]

DON'T USE SACRIFICE ATLEAST.

i mean that much is fair? at the very least sacrifice is just a substitue for limming tomorrow, and it's probably better to just... discuss instead. i don't think there's anything else we can vote for, so we probably need to unaminously vote recount. here, i'll contribute;

HURT: recount

i'm just like, not sure where you are from a not-mechanics standpoint

[meowmeow]

uh, don't mafia have parity? i don't get why 'prevent the same' is even necessary here

VOTE: enchant i guess

[meowmeow]

i need to start voting the people in the middle of my readlist instead of the bottom smh

[meowmeow]

Hammering No Execution requires only half of the votes, not a strict majority.

?

[meowmeow]

well maybe i shouldn't have said that but they knew it already considering how they entered the day lole it's not like rce is going to come in and *not* vote no elim

HURT: assassination i guess? hopefully there is a way to win this otherwise lol

[meowmeow]

wait should i hammer no elimination now before rce comes in

isn't that the best play?

[meowmeow]

yeah if we get all 4 on assassination before rce comes in we can do that i think

can't we then vote to assassinate a mafia member?

[meowmeow]

i don't think we all need to do it

i was going to check there's nothing i missed, but given lack of alternatives it probably is better to just do it now before rce gets a chance

VOTE: no elim just in case

[meowmeow]

yeah scum will have some methods of killing, we know they can poison

we can assassinate one more time, and we can maybe use loverise? we'll have to think about it. the biggest disadvantage is that they have all the info; they know our info but we don't know theirs. they can communicate privately and we can't.

it's sort of lame that this might become 'who can be online at the same time as bianco' but whatever that's the game i guess

[meowmeow]

at least we all know who it is, now

at eod i obviously knew some of the members but not all of them

now it's, uh, abundantly clear

sorry about that drew and alianna lmao (also aureal and cakez if ur reading)

[meowmeow]

i got no notifications

[meowmeow]

hm. i think we can win this based on the publicly available information, but we don't know what mafia can do

[meowmeow]

It just costed your game.

i just costed ur butt

[meowmeow]

Is there something we didn’t pick up on? We do have majority in the Assassination council, right? And scum was hammering no execution anyway, right?

i mean there's definitely things mafia could potentially have to make this not work etc etc

i really doubt we would have won if we sat with our hands on our asses and let rce vote no elim instead so whatever enchant is just being enchant

[meowmeow]

It just costed your game.

are we supposed to care

Yes.

Now it takes even longer but ultimately you still lose.

that's what you think until we unlock guildhall and revive marcistar who comes in to save the town

[meowmeow]

you just don't believe in the marci hardcarry like i do

[meowmeow]

it's not about winning. it's about the friends we make along the way.

[meowmeow]

my pfp is cuter

[meowmeow]

anyway isn't there a tragic beauty in fighting on against all odds just because you can

[meowmeow]

gg, thx bianco

[meowmeow]

i can be a frog and a cat at the same time! i think

[meowmeow]

i have only one question

why did snivy send me a prod

wtf snivy

[meowmeow]

literally me

[meowmeow]

I have never seen her as scum, but she knows how I sometimes can be as town......don't get her push on me.

i think my viewpoint was impacted by the open we played where like i wrote you off as town tunneling me or something and you were scum, made me want to give you less slack this game

i think in the future i'll change my approach to you since it clearly backfired in this game

[meowmeow]

anyway uh i don't think anyone was talking shit about me in the pts which is all i really cared about so yeah

i think i like the idea of the setup but 9:4 does tend to be very scumsided? it doesn't really matter because when you sign up for a role madness game you shouldn't expect perfect balance, and the mafia played well in this game - i even had roden as my top townread at one point! he was very good