Mafia 97 - Day Night Mafia, Game Over

[Kise]

A bandwagon? You BANDWAGONED in the RVS???

Yeah, thanks for getting us out of the RVS.

Vote: Konowa

A very serious vote, indeed.

[Kise]

I did not say anything about your 2nd vote, so don't strawman me.

[Kise]

Oh, you mean you being the 2nd person to vote for Wiirdo?

It's a bandwagon because you just jumped on it. You went with the 'hip' choice and, to boot, didn't say anything other than a vote.

[Kise]

Bandwagoning is the best way out of RVS. That was my reasoning.

So if YOU weren't bandwagoning, then you were trying to lure someone else into bandwagoning?

[Kise]

Kise.... just stop posting.... please.

Never. Get lynched.

[Kise]

FoS

nhammen for IIOA.

[Kise]

This is information, instead of analysis. Just stating facts and not critically assessing the situation = a common scumtell. It is always likely that those using IIOA are purposely lying low under the radar; not wanting to warrant any attention or step into the spotlight; indirectly addresses players by talking about them, rather than talking to them; has the "speak-when-spoken-to" mentality... basically, IIOA is something mafia do. That's what I'm getting at.

The only people you've directly spoken to have been Monkey and, somewhat, Konowa.

Engaging in conversation is more beneficial to the scumhunting agenda than your speaking in 3rd-person perspective.

[Kise]

IGMEOY

lobstermania.

[Kise]

((After realizing what Konowa meant by his 2nd vote))

Oh, you mean you being the 2nd person to vote for Wiirdo?

It's a bandwagon because you just jumped on it. You went with the 'hip' choice and, to boot, didn't say anything other than a vote.

If you two had kept reading, you'd have spotted this post.

[Kise]

Question:
Why was Wiirdo the "hip" choice if he only had one vote on him?

At the time Konowa voted, Wiirdo, Empking & CJMillar were all hip choices due to someone already having voted them. Why wouldn't Konowa just place his vote against someone with zero votes? It alarms people into thinking Konowa wanted to get someone (who exhibited no scummy behavior) lynched off the bat.

Better yet, instead of being so silent in his post, he could have also gave a reason then and there, rather than wait so many posts later to say "Oh, I did have a reason to vote for Wiirdo." Yet & still, that reason makes no sense considering he's admitting that bandwagoning is OK, but he acts as though he is not guilty of the crime himself.

Bandwagoning is the best way out of RVS. That was my reasoning. The person who I chose was random, yes. The reasoning behind it was not. It is pretty common knowledge.

He's clearly suggesting that a bandwagon was present, or would soon present itself. I'm inclined to believe he's confession to partaking in bandwagoning..

The fact that he tried to justify an illogical vote with this "excuse" cemented my suspicion about him. You yourself have not done much in the way of acting scummy.. but you're honestly not doing much, other than defending Konowa/yourself and waiting for me to comment.

If a 2nd vote is not an implication of a bandwagon, then what is a 2nd vote against someone, essentially? Also, if MM is most scummy to you, then why no vote?

@DIDO - Comment. Please.

[Kise]

Limited detail, is all. Fact remains that it was hip at the time to

put someone at L-8

. That's what I'm getting at.

And, so, what about the "Monkey" business? (

kawaii

)

[Kise]

Wow. nhammen finally decided to talk to someone directly for a change.

^ I think he was confused... BC and I played a game that is still ongoing with Kise where he got lynched as a cop D1.

This is correct. MM said nothing to me; it would be BC.

[Kise]

In general, I'm frustrated with MonkeyMan. It seems like every time someone makes a post about him he responds with "omgus." And then there is a 2-page back-and-forth between him and someone else about why or why not is was "omgus." I'm considering voting him, but will do a iso on him first.

Are you voting him merely because he frustrates you, or is he scummy in your opinion?

[Kise]

Also: CB & Kise, why are your votes still on me?

Because you haven't done anything that shows me a pro-town motivation. You're doing nothing other than keeping others busy by asking them questions, so, in a sense, this tactic could be used to take the heat off of you.

All I'm saying, Reck, is that I wouldn't trust you in LyLo.

That's too much vote-hopping for my liking, Snow. I see a petty attack on Sando over his use of terms.

Not sticking/buddying up to him, but he makes a good point about effective ways to scumhunt. There was cleary some OMGUS-driven accusations with BC, more or less. The dust seems to be settling, slowly..

@lobster - Still hoping you could answer that question, por favor.

[Kise]

Let's get something straight.. I was not giving the reason why I voted in the first place. I gave the reason why the vote is STILL on. Rest assured, Reck, this is not tunneling.

[Kise]

Unvote

Vote: Lobster

We're way outside RVS.

Really? Cause this looks like a random vote to me....

Pretty sure Emp voted you because you came in the thread and decided to make a random vote, whereas we were well out of that stage at the time.

[Kise]

Because you haven't done anything that shows me a pro-town motivation. You're doing nothing other than keeping others busy by asking them questions, so, in a sense, this tactic could be used to take the heat off of you.

Wait, what?

Earlier you were attacking me for not

asking questions

enough

, and now you are attacking Reckoner for asking too many?

Please find a quote of mine (if possible) where I suggest that you need to ask questions, nhammen.

[Kise]

Yeah, there's not much to say about CJ leaving the game.. Unless you have reason to believe he's defeated-scum who is quitting[?] Do tell.

[Kise]

Unvote; Vote: CJ Miller

[Kise]

Good man.

[Kise]

I believe that is either a lynch or L-1. Caboose will probably be a while before coming back to the site, so I'd still like to hear from CJ. A claim would help get rid of the suspense.

[Kise]

Sorry for the long absense. I'll catch up later, but apparently we've got scum.

Vote: Canadianbovine

That's L-1. If discussion should be continued, then someone else will need to unvote because I'm logging off.

[Kise]

I would suggest you investigate me, BC, but then if mafia also target me, it'll be a wasted investigation. And lord knows we want the doc to keep an eye on you rather than me. What's a girl to do?

I haven't bothered to read through D2, so I just popped in and saw why CB had so many votes so fast.

I propose MM for the lynch since he tried to do the same trick-vote as CB.

Also, CB, before you perish, do you mind telling us if you're 100% sure that there's 2 factions? I don't believe nhammen's death was the result of daykilling scum.

[Kise]

Yup. Reckoner is scum here.

As for your question: Ever heard of a JOAT?

[Kise]

Hmm... so you guys want a claim this early? For real? If I get 1 other person to ask, then fine, I'll claim.

Kise, if people thought that Nham was generally pro-town, why would a town aligned JOAT vig him? It would have to be an awful town player to do so.

Why are you convinced Reck is scum Kise?

All of town except me, I guess. I believed/assumed nhammen's death to be at the hands of a JOAT with a 1-shot daykill. I didn't consider that the title of this game implies day & night elements/mafia teams. So at the time, it made more sense for nhammen's death to be day-vig or JOAT related.

I called Reck scum because of how he throws dirt on me at the end of D2. What I said was anti-town? I would have looked at it as having a neutral (useless) effect. Anti-town implies that what I said was benefitting to the mafia's objective; their victory. Reck blew it out of proportion if you ask me. Other then that, there's no evidence to suggest Reck is def-scum.

Now... time to view how everyone interacted with CB on D1.

[Kise]

Gimme a drumroll

[Kise]

................

I have only a single ability, and that is through the power of disk-us-shin. Disk-us-shin with my fellow town folk on who to vote for, that is.

Mod: Wouldn't that count as 2 abilities?

[Kise]

Then again, Caboose is the one I should be asking.

[Kise]

@BC - Your D2 claim paints you as quite a bold man, for someone to do so that early in the game... Did you not fear being targeted by both the day & night mafia? I.E. are you [personally] hoping there are protective roles for both phases?

Kise: Started out strong, but a little to insistant. I agree with the case made against Konowa, but he's been replaced. I don't really buy into his reason for keeping the vote on xRECKONERx, though, since I'm also of the mind that asking questions is a good way to scumhunt. The more questions asked, the more likely they are to have to lie; the more they have to lie, the more likely they are to let slip an inconsistency.

Coaching. Great. Really really really really hope you don't flip scum. Wouldn't be a good look for me... jerk.

[Kise]

@Platy - There is no other scum role that would get an innocent if investigated. Only other possibility for Bekk to be non-GF-scum would be if a Bus Driver role swapped her and a townie. However, that is quiiiiiite a stretch of the imagination.

Also, Plat, it wasn't originally saber who asked me to claim -->

where were we?

Vote: Kise

You should now full-claim.

BM

And another question for you BC: Is your ability a night or day action?

[Kise]

Because he's a mafia cop..

[Kise]

Question to all - Is there anyone who does not believe my VT claim? (I'm only curious to see who says no)

[Kise]

Kise, I'm curious as to why you jumped to JOAT rather than a vig or SK, afaik they're much more common. Why would a JOAT use their one-shot kill so early?

WTF... I'm not thinking THAT hard about the kill. And, actually, it would have depended on who the JOAT was if there was one. That person thinks differently than everyone else. Yeah?

I don't see the case against RECKONER, his 'mud-slinging' at the end of D2 was a statement that he found your rather odd comment scummy. Also, BM attacked you for basically the exact same thing, why is RECKONER more likely scum?

Kise, if you're on the lookout for mud-slinging, you make no mention of the blowup between Saber and myself/RECKONER, where he paints us both as scum with no reasoning, seems like classic mudslinging.

BM didn't 'attack' me until after I made that little comment about Reck being scum, so there was no way for me to... ahem... leap into the future and nab BM in that same post. Also, I have not read all of D2 at the moment, so I didn't catch that part.

At the moment I'm really not liking Kise or Scott. The JOAT conclusion was pretty left-field, and followed by the vanilla-claim, it makes very little sense. Scott has contributed nothing except to postulate on the kills.

Aww, what's the matter; I didn't claim to be the JOAT like you guys had hoped?

Unvote, Vote: Scott

This doesnt mean im completely done with Kise, but i think i feel better about a Scott lynch today.

I'll get back to this after you answer whether you believe my claim.

I genuinely thought a bandwagon on Kise would lead to a claim, and then id decide if i wanted to lynch him or not. Likewise, i want you to get run up now, although im less sure that a claim will save you. Certainly a vanilla claim wont, but maybe a well breadcrumbed PR claim.

Going by your logic of wanting people to make early-roleclaims, you are both hasty to fish and also it seems like you're getting a massclaim, but very subtlely.

@BM & BC - I'm asking to see which phase an ability can be used so I can determine how special [town] roles work. For instance... we have day & night mafia. So, I'd like to hope that we have docs for both phases. And if there are 2 docs, then I'm thinking there could be 2 cops. But, since BC is day mafia cop and all, then he has no reason to fear being killed at the end of day phase. He's more than likely manipulating the doc to protect him from the night mafia. It just doesn't add up when a claimed cop survives the clutches of the daytime mafia, unless he's with them.

Notice how quick he was to agree with CB that I could be in the DM? Just fuggin' investigate me. Don't bother announcing your agreeance with someone [bovine] you discovered was scum. A town cop wouldn't bother even trying to throw dirt on a player that way. Just like how MM was linked to CB, the general viewpoint is that MM was also daytime mafia. BC, by agreeing with CB, you're influencing everyone into petty suspicion as well as influencing CB's faction to target me since I'm supposedly in the rival gang.

Blood hops around the game, "Heya guys! I'm the cop!" He has the balls to claim so early (sure, for the sake of lynching CB), but for some reason he's unwilling to tell me whether he works during the day or night?

I think it's worth looking at MM & BC's D1 argument again.

[Kise]

Just like how MM was linked to CB, the general viewpoint is that MM was also

daytime

NIGHTTIME

mafia.

Fixed.

MM was killed by the daytime mafia who more than likely thought he was NTM due to his connection to CB. Point is... I don't take it lightly when I'm accused of being in a faction, simply because I voted for someone who received a guilty result. I was coming back from V/LA and hadn't read D2. All I saw was a shitload of votes on CB and went searching for the reason why, and hell yeah I supported the cause to eliminate scum.

---

Vote Count:

Scott Brosius(3)

- Sando, Battle Mage, BloodCovenent

Not Voting(10)

- Bekkatha, MafiaSSK, iPeanut, lobstermania, Platypus_Dude, DTMaster, xRECKONERx, saberwolf, Scott Brosius, Kise

Deadline:

24/8/09 15:45 Central Time

7 to Lynch
4 to Lynch at deadline

[Kise]

Good lord..

Just like how MM was linked to CB, the general viewpoint is that MM was also

daytime

NIGHTTIME

mafia.

[Kise]

Platy -->

where were we?

Vote: Kise

You should now full-claim.

BM

Agreed^

Both BM & BC wanted me to claim, then SW was the 3rd. I think a few people here (coughscumcoughcough) had hard-ons because they thought they were about to discover a power role in me.

@saberwolf - I see that I am the bastard who handed you your first mafiascum defeat. That fact has nothing to do with anything. I subconsciously have the urge to rub it in your face. But in all seriousness me friend, I want to ask you if my belief in a JOAT was really that damning? What role did you think was responsible for nhammen's D1 death when you initially read he was shot during twilight?

@lobster - Do you believe my VT claim?

[Kise]

Meh... I was hoping to drop this knowledge a little later, but let me educate some of you who missed this stuff -->

i got a guilty on CB last night when I targeted him last night. I'm sure that he is part of the

night mafia team

.

Congratulations. You are officially the 1st person here to distinguish that there is a night mafia... I wonder how you knew there are 2 factions, rather than considering nhammen possibly died at the hands of an indepent killing-role like I did.(?)

Ok, not to mention this post of Canadians is extremely scummy. He's role fishing. If he were town, he would take for granted that no one was killed. He is obviously concerned that no kills went through that night,

not that he is able to do any twilight/day kills

Again, you are certain that CB is night mafia, and not day mafia. Are you sure you're a regular cop, BC?

Notice how Monkey's post was in clear defense of Canadian's? MM, why are you so concerned with my vote on him? Do you really think that eight other players are going to jump on that lynch too, and we get a quick lynch within two pages? No, not likely. Can't you see that vote was more-so a pressure vote, but not so much anymore, since i'm working the night shift

Aaaand I'm pretty sure that right here is where the day mafia was beginning to believe that MM is night mafia w/ CB. The way BC types this post suggest to me that he strongly believes MM as night mafia, completely ruling out MM as day mafia. And then during twilight, the day mafia chose to kill MM (someone they thought was from the same rival faction as CB) over a claimed cop??? Really???

Shouldn't scum be more concerned with killing the cops & docs of the game, rather than going after rivals? If the day mafia eliminate their rivals, then that would leave the cop to investigate them and only them since they'd be the only remaining mafiosos -- Not smart. It'd make more sense for both factions to go for a power role. In conclusion, this is but a fraction of my findings and only about 1/3 of my reasons to believe BC is scum-cop. I'm saving the other 2/3's of my findings because I'd like to hear more of who believes my VT claim.

Yes, I am a psychologist. No, I did not go to school for this shit.

Discuss.

[Kise]

Who was it yesterday who said they wanted to see what the Night Mafia kill flavour was? Because im thinking the wierd kill method implicates that person as scum. Will check it out now.

I guess Scott....

since the game is called DAY NIGHT MAFIA, can't we assume there are two teams of scum? a team of day mafia and a team of night mafia?

I'll comment more on this later after seeing what the NK scene is like at the end of the day

.... and saberwolf as well.

I also agree with the 2 mafia teams, esp given the MonkeyMan kill last night

seems like one scum group trying to hit the other

.

A very vague hint at knowledge of the day mafia's motivation for killing off MM. Noted.

Kise, I'm curious as to why you jumped to JOAT rather than a vig or SK, afaik they're much more common. Why would a JOAT use their one-shot kill so early?

Fishing....

[Kise]

I originally thought a Governor could be around. Considering that Caboose was gone WAY after CJ reached the lynch-votes, and Seraph took quite a long while

@All - If you don't believe my VT claim, then, well... I must be the only VT left. My paraphrasing of my role PM is as identical as I could make it. There are a few people who didn't comment on my question, but in the event anyone else wants me to clear them as a VT, I have a good test.

@Kise

Vote: Kise

Ew. Dislike the whole fishing admission. Your framed accusation is WIFOMy. Plus you are withholding 2/3s of your analysis to judge how the town feeling is? That is very odd

Convenient you say this, because the other 2/3's (and counting) I have also connects BC to Empking, whom you replaced. Don't worry, it's coming tonight.

Also.. you call me out for withholding information, but what about BC withholding information? He keeps saying he has more to his role than we know. I dare him to claim rolecop, because after the way he dismissed Bekk's innocense, there's no way he can ID roles and know who's town and who's day/night mafia.

After thinking it over..

Vote: saberwolf

He speculated on nightkill flavor before Scott. Sure, they both did it, but first come, first serve. I was under the impression he was townie based on his interaction with a certain someone, but it's odd for him & Scott to question kill-flavor.

[Kise]

@Kise, Why are you trying to persuade us that there is only one killing faction?

I'm not... the hell are you talking about? Is this propaganda that I smell?!?

i got a guilty on CB last night when I targeted him last night. I'm sure that he is part of the

night mafia team

.

Ok, not to mention this post of Canadians is extremely scummy. He's role fishing. If he were town, he would take for granted that no one was killed. He is obviously concerned that no kills went through that night,

not that he is able to do any twilight/day kills

How were you 100% sure that CB was NOT day mafia?

[Kise]

Why do we have a 48 hour wait period before night? Do games normally have that waiting period... before night?

Before night? Wow, what a lying sonova gun. Here are the rules:

17. Nights

will last

48 hours. If you don't send in an action by the end of the night, that will be taken as a

No Action

.

So, again, you really thought it would be 48 hours BEFORE night? Bulllllll Shit.

Disclaimer: I will be posting the Quicktopic threads after the game is over. If anybody has a problem with that, please contact me via PM.

Noted that it is bolded. and threads is plaural.

We did have a mason flip, remember? But, we're past that now. It's confirmed that there are 2 factions, and you're apart of the day group.

Anyone else who sucks up to the cop is a part of day mafia. It's f*cking disgusting at how much buddying is going on. BC, your story doesn't add up. There is NO WAY you could know on D2 that there was 2 factions, and I just disproved your supposed reason for believing so. I've got you by the balls... Play nice and find the other night scum at least.

[Kise]

Additionally, the first thing you do (after my post) is come in and talk to everyone else but me, and they posted after me... And then you don't even explain why you

initially

believed there to be two mafias. What I asked is why you thought there was two mafias whenever you claimed CB was night mafia.

Another EBWOP:

WARNING: DEADLINE LYNCH COUNT REACHED

WANRING: CJMILLER HAS BEEN LYNCHED.

ANY DAY ACTIONS MUST BE SENT ASAP.

NIGHT ACTIONS WILL BE PROCESSED AS SOON AS NIGHT IS REACHED.

why is this Kise?

You made this post^ a whole THIRTY MINUTES after your original answer to my question. Wow, you're scrapping for resources. BC, don't bullshit me into thinking that you knew of two mafia teams based on what Seraphim said. If that was the case, why not referrence that in your FIRST reply instead of having to EBWOP? Scrapping....

[Kise]

SSK, I'm going to assume you don't realize I just exposed BC.[?]

[Kise]

Battle Mage... hop off of BC's dick for 1 freakin' post, please.

Please note that Kise was the only one that wanted my lynch, and pulled so many strings to make a case on me, clearly he wants me lynched.

I'm voting saberwolf ATM and requested that you "play nice" and find night scum. You withheld information from us, and I don't see the harm in letting everyone know you cannot find day scum. Your role details are believable. The main reason I am accusing you of being day scum is because of all that BS you said about knowing CB was night mafia. If you gave out more info on your role rather than lie about the 48 hour rule, I would not have been able to make a case on you. I don't know what to make of you now since your role details are believable, as I said. Anyway, as you can see, I'm comfortable with a SW lynch.

[Kise]

Note that we are playing with basic Mafia roles, Not any of the advanced roles. No where in the Cop wiki does it show that there are mafia cops. Maybe it is my lack of experience, but I am willing to bet that there are not mafia cops that often, let alone in a new york game.

Meh... you think a cop that can only sniff out a certain kind of scum is normal? And yes, there is a such thing as mafia cop. They basically act as rolecops, so they can tell their partners who has what ability, etc.

Kise Analysis

Post 0 - Trying to look town with the old "RVS hate".

Post 1 - Over-defensive and panicky

Posts 5 and 6 - Incorrectly citing IIOA

Post 17 - Claims CJ leaving the game is a null-tell.

Post 18 - Votes CJ, with no further comment.

-MAHOOSIVE ABSENCE-

Post 22 - Tries to discourage BC from investigating him.

Post 23 - Brings up the possibility of a JOAT

Post 24 - Worried about claiming early.

Post 26 - Claims vanilla.

Post 28 - Worried about Ipeanut making him look bad. Fishing.

Post 31 - Knows he is going down, and wants to see if ANYONE was buying his claim.

Cba to read anymore. That's more than enough to warrant a lynch.

I might analyse Scott later.

BM

[Kise]

I was really surprised to see that Reck thought Kise's case was compelling, that most certainly disturbed me. I thought he was Obv town, but not any more.

Dude... I know psychology pretty well. I figured out that Xyl was Godfather in our 1st game together. I'm an oddball, but if I may say so myself, my assessments (as town) are inspired by good enough evidence.

Kise is tomorrows lynch if BC is town.

I'm voting saberwolf... why is everyone thinking I'm ready to rid of BC? I'm willing to give him a chance because by eliminating night mafia, that's one less faction that can kill. Saberwolf made a comment about needing to check the flavor of nightkills. Then, later on, we verify that scum can modify how their kills are made. Seems strange, do you not agree?

Kise is tomorrows lynch if BC is town.

Reading this over again, it seems to me like you're trying a pleading case where you are trying to see if you can appeal to others in jumping off the Kise BW by saying that if we go and lynch our claimed day cop, we can simply lynch Kise tomorrow.

Nice catch, SW.. I could be wrong about you.. I don't understand why SSK is among those who believe I am calling for BC's lynch

today

. It's very inconsidering to the fact that day mafia could be lynched or killed, thus disproving my case against BC and clearing him. I will second a

FoS on SSK

.

If you notice scott, I have left multiple options for both scenarios, so scum can't 100% accurately play on simply my post alone, although I do see what you were getting at.

I don't see it that way.. what happens in the event both Scott & I are town? What does that say about your proposal then? Also, I thought you said earlier I wasn't playing to my scum meta. Did I... suddenly start playing my scum meta?

@Mod(s):

The Rules

2. Play to win. Naming, or even pretending to name, scumbuddies is an infraction of this rule and will result in modkills and an automatic loss for your team.

Just want to refresh this rule in case it's already been done.

[Kise]

@Seraphim - Just checking to see if you can remember a time it happened. I don't, lol. I want my job to be made easier though.

I'm gonna

FoS Sando

right now in case I don't get a chance to post my full case against him.

@SSK - I thought you said anyone who antagonized me and believed BC was stupid(?). This gave me the impression you understood how I made my case on BC... but later you say that if BC is town, I should be lynched next. I don't get it. If you also believe BC could have been day scum, then why would him flipping town mean I'm scum and not you as well for [supposedly] sharing my viewpoint of his role? To me, it doesn't appear that you're wanting to nail mafia-cop; just lynch a cop & a townie next. Please make more elaborate posts. Also, have you caught up on the entire game?

If Kise is town, i will gladly give myself up for lynch tomorrow. If Scott is lynched today and comes up town, i still want to see Kise strung up tomorrow.

I can understand having certainty that someone (me in this case) is scum, but if you're townie, why would you want to cripple your team in this manner? Sacrificing yourself due to honor is pretty stupid, or anti-town. Take your pick.

Also... Post 662 is not what I intended. My responses to BM's analysis is... not there. Let me retry this:

Kise Analysis

Post 0 - Trying to look town with the old "RVS hate".

Konowa admits that it wasn't a random vote. He said bandwagon gets us out of RVS, but then also says that he didn't bandwagon... He was nuts.

Posts 5 and 6 - Incorrectly citing IIOA

1 or 2 others felt the same way I did about nhammen's post, including BC before he retracted his statement/agreeance.

Post 17 - Claims CJ leaving the game is a null-tell.

It was. Your point?

Post 18 - Votes CJ, with no further comment.

Everyone was scrambling for the best lynch. I did not want to vote MM or BC, so I went with the 3rd highest wagon that was much more plausible. Not my fault CJ acted scummy by antagonizing BC.

-MAHOOSIVE ABSENCE-

Is there a point in mentioning this? I was not posting in any of my other games (I had quite a bit) so it wasn't like I ignored this one. If you're accusing me of lurking, just say it so we're clear (and I'll tell you know that lurking was not the case).

Post 22 - Tries to discourage BC from investigating him.

Moreso trying to discourage a DK/NK. BC basically announced me as a likely investigation target, and the mafia would have likely denied him the chance to clear me as non-night scum by killing me & making him waste an investigation. I have this mindset because BC was cop in a different game of ours and I was mafia, and my plan was to NK anyone who I felt would be his likely target. But of course, Empking had to confuse me by saying I only get 1 kill the whole game and BC caught both my partner & I before I could do away with him........ ANYWAY, back to this game.

Post 23 - Brings up the possibility of a JOAT

I won't name-drop, but there were others who speculated nhammen's death being done by a day-vig. No one except BC knew about the night & day mafia, which is another reason I thought I had caught him slipping up. How come you didn't get on anyone else's case when they speculated about who killed nhammen?

Post 24 - Worried about claiming early.

Worried..? Pretty sure I laughed in that post. You wanted me to make a full claim with only 2 votes on me because you probably thought I was JOAT, huh?

Post 26 - Claims vanilla.

Post 31 - Knows he is going down, and wants to see if ANYONE was buying his claim.

I wanted to see if there were any other VT's. If there were, then they would have compared their role PM with my paraphrasing and known I was telling the truth. If there are any other VT's and I'm wrong, then there's still other methods to prove it.... we can count the # of words in the role PM.

[Kise]

On Kise: The JOAT thing sits a bit odd with me, since there was no reason at that point not to think that it wasn't a day-vig or some similar role. It seems like a leap to think it's a JOAT before that, but that's not necessarily scummy, just different thought process.

Does it really make a world of a difference whether I had said day-vig & not JOAT?

[Kise]

if day-scum knew about it, he didn't have to worry about them killing him, why would they kill someone who is only a threat to their enemies?

This is another point against BC.. if day scum didn't know BC could only discover night mafia, then why would they risk keeping him alive past D2?

I'm wondering why there wasn't any aggressive action towards any of the other players that had (much, much earlier) assumed that there were two factions. At several points during my initial readthrough, I kept checking the rules and whatnot to see if it was actually declared that there were two factions since some people had it planted so solidly in their posts. At least BC's got an explanation for it.

Before the phase ends, please name-drop who else talked about 2 factions.

The amount of role-fishing from Kise has been, well, amazing.

You were one of those who expected me to claim JOAT. Need I remind you of your quote that you did NOT answer and only deflected?

Kise, I'm curious as to why you jumped to JOAT rather than a vig or SK, afaik they're much more common. Why would a JOAT use their one-shot kill so early?

Here, you're trying to figure out whether I am certain there is a JOAT (and hoping it's me) by questioning why JOAT and not DV/SK. You also ask me why would a JOAT use their 1-shot so early... how else would I know unless I am the JOAT myself, right? You were fishing, plain and simple. And since day scum would know for certain that a JOAT didn't kill nhammen, it'd be better to assume you're night scum.

Here is your pathetic response/deflection:

Kise, I'm curious as to why you jumped to JOAT rather than a vig or SK, afaik they're much more common. Why would a JOAT use their one-shot kill so early?

Fishing....

You were role fishing? Oh good, thanks for clearing that up, that's a totally townie thing to do...

*smh*

[Kise]

Read posts 663 & 667, SSK. I've got some stuff I need you to go over/answer, please.

[Kise]

So the chances of Godfather being on the night team are likely? Especially considering the cop is only half-useful in the 1st place? Unless there is also a day cop (I'm not fishing), then I doubt there's a Godfather. But we'll leave it as my own personal opinion.

Also DTM, I'm not OMGUS w/ Sando at all. Before he voted, you should notice that I called him out early for fishing when he asked me about JOAT's motivation for killing nhammen. Why the hell did Sando want me to explain why a JOAT (suspected to be me) would use his 1-shot early on? The reason I see is because he thought that, by me explaining why a JOAT would use it, he'd conclude whether or not I could very well be JOAT.

And again, it's not that I've seen anyone joking about being scumbuddies with anyone; I only wanted to refresh that rule in case Seraphim remembers seeing it.

[Kise]

I deleted this post. Even if it isn't wrong in Caboose's ruleset, it's a big one in mine. No modkills though as you were unaware of it.

[Kise]

Sando, I never admited to rolefishing; you put words in my mouth. I said YOU were the one fishing.

Why did you need to know why I believed JOAT daykilled nhammen instead of a day-vig or SK? What info could be gathered by my reply? (2 separate questions; please treat them as such)

[Kise]

You know you can answer my questions first, Sando, yeah? Quit stalling and address them already... pretty please.

[Kise]

No, BC, I was not baiting, if that's what you mean.

Thing is, you have the balls to claim cop, but for some reason you withheld extra info on your role PM. Maybe it benefits mafia in some way; I won't voice that. But, fact is, the big mess between us could have been avoided if you didn't lie to me about how you knew about night & day mafia. You lied about the 48 hour rule and I caught that, so it only added more fuel to the fire, so to speak. Trust me, I'm off your back for now. The new info you gave has made me more believing you could be town cop. However, your defense of Sando does not go unseen.

To answer your question about why a pro-town role would kill nhammen, who some thought of as generally pro-town: Well, like I said before, I sure as hell suspected him to be scum. I automatically thought it was an indie-killing role because I did not expect 2 mafia factions.

As for why I didn't make it to night 1 in our other game, it's simple... Because Lamont Cranston nitpicked & tunneled the shit out of me and made the most genius case D1. It was still dumb to lynch an uncountered cop claim, but a win is a win.

[Kise]

DTM, here is the post you're looking for:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 32#1700832

Xyl was GF. sam.samhorn was also mafia but I didn't have enough of a read on him. Lazarus & Phoebus were also mafia, and as you can see, their little amounts of post hindered me from reading them. The 5th scumbag in that game would be Rhinox. As you can tell, I point out the negative & positive aspects of the other [town] players, but the last 4 scum were too quiet for me to assess.

BTW, I got lynched in Kubrick mafia due to guilty result, not scummy behavior.

[Kise]

Lol^. I don't have a playstyle. The only guarantee from me is that I'm a bit playful, if not off the wall.

Regarding Post 705 - The fact doesn't change that your FIRST answer to my question (30 minutes before the EBWOP) is because you reasoned that there was a 48 hour waiting period before night phase. A lie is a lie. I'm not going to turn the other cheek just because you ask me why Seraph told everyone to send in Day Actions. That was a 2nd reply, not the original answer as to why you believed in night & day mafias.

[Kise]

you were the ONLY one who suspected an indie killing role.

I still won't name-drop, but no, I was not the only one. Someone else whole-heartedly said it was a day-vig, and told them not to expose themselves, but that they need to be careful when doing day-vig-kills.

[Kise]

Because day-vig & JOAT have day actions, yeah? I will repeat -- I was surprised to discover there were day & night scum teams. One of the last things I would have expected.

And after reconsidering, I will name-drop... For some reason people are coming down my throat (no homo) when I was not the 1st nor only person talking about an indie killer. -->

I'd like to give my input on the day-vig like person. First off, do not claim. I'm not sure when a good time for you to claim is, but nhammen was the wrong person, IMO. If you could give your reasoning whenever you claim, I'd appreciate it.

.....................

[Kise]

Middle of page 15 -->
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 48#1793748

[Kise]

Thought I had more info? Like, knew a JOAT killed nhammen because I was in fact the JOAT? Your reasons are weak, Sando. You're saying that I fakeclaimed VT, and I could've been a JOAT? OK, so why would you vote me if I was really JOAT; a pro-town role?

[Kise]

For those online, what do you make of Platy's post?

[Kise]

Yes Sando, a cop can be scum. One just flipped in an ongoing game of mine. But, by making JOAT mafia-aligned, it's crippling to town due to giving scum so many abilities to work with.

Sando, what is this information you thought I knew regarding a JOAT?

[Kise]

saberwolf, don't bullshit a bullshitter. I can tell you're hungry for this lynch and you seem to be ignoring posts deliberately.

The Platy post can be seen in Posts 711 & 713. He started D2 off by believing nhammen was killed by day-vig. He sounds convincing enough.

Sando, a mafia cop is also known as rolecop. They target a player and the mod retrieves them that player's full role PM. This will help them identify town roles, such as VTs, docs, etc.

[Kise]

Do I need to link to where you can find a mafia cop? It's an ongoing game, but I'll direct to it just in case one of you has never heard of the role.

[Kise]

Yep, Role Cop. I notice a few of you joined MS this year. Do most of you have offsite experience?

I see your point...assuming a day-vig is better than a JOAT though...but he could be day scum trying to throw us off...

I can't see kise bussing his partner like this...i can't see plat and kise BOTH as day mafia.

I'm pretty sure there was at least 1 more person who had belief in a solo daykiller. Not sure how far back I'd have to go to find it (obvious it's after N1), but neither me or Platy should be cleared if one of us flips town before the other.

[Kise]

I thought it was strange for a few people to attack me for not believing day mafia killed nhammen when I wasn't the 1st who didn't think that as well. I was curious to know why those who attacked me did not comment on your post, Platy.

[Kise]

SSK is probable-nightscum thanks to not only his recent comments, but also due to inheritence of the person he's replacing for. Notice how falko comes to stand CB's side here:

I don't understand that votes for CB.

Of course that the vote is the only tool of town, why refuse to use it?. and even worst, why condem a player who put that in light??.

Of course, you can say that you vote conservative way, but, if you are town, always your vote has some uncertainty.

Reading through that page, I see no one else coming to CB's aid. But Platy apparently heckled Snow White just as CB did. But I'm thinking Platy asked her 1st.

Oh...I was replaced here...so....luck in the game..good bye

Lol.. Why not "Go Town" here?

Unvote; Vote: MafiaSSK

The more people I find scummy, the less others are scummy. I'd say no more than 2 night mafia & no more than 3 day mafia exist. saberwolf can be re-examined later. I'd rather try to hit someone linked to night scum, as they're a likely partner. Reducing the amount of mafia kills is better to do sooner rather than later.

[Kise]

Read posts 663 & 667, SSK. I've got some stuff I need you to go over/answer, please.

I find the questions self-explanatory.

They're not. They required your attention, but you've ignored me. I now get the feeling that you only rode along with my case because you don't want BC to discover you as night mafia. Although I'm thankful you didn't vote me, I can see why you'd imply that BC would/should be lynched 1st, then go on to say that if BC flips town, I'm next. Lining 'em up, I'd say.

@BC - I'm not in a position to confirm 2 doctors for both phases. Definitely a doc on the night shift, as CB mentioned.

[Kise]

As DTM said, I'm pretty sure BC looks good with a full description of his powers. My biggest reason for questioning BC was because of his intimate knowledge of a night mafia team, but he's already accounted for how he knew.

@DTM - I say no more than 2 night scum and no more than 3 day scum just because those are standard numbers to distribute to scum factions, given the # of total players in this game. Once the remainder of night scum are gone, BC will turn vanilla and that will confirm when the night faction have been wiped out.

@lobster - I'm not antagonizing BC any more. Try to stay updated on what's going on, yeah?

Also I think it's important that SSK go over Posts 663 & 667. His refusal to answer them should only tell you all that he doesn't want to be caught saying bad, scummy logic. Even if I die, I don't think you guys should drop what SSK needs to address regarding 663 & 667. I never voted BC or wanted him lynched today, so it should strike you as odd that he even has the impression that BC was today's lynch.

[Kise]

@saber - Most of those points you bring up include extra material that was never even used in my original case/suspicion of BC. I don't think he's lying about being a cop. I wanted to know why he knew of the night mafia, and our argument dragged on until he revealed what he meant by "working the night shift."

I'll reiterate that I did not want nor suggested a lynch on BC today. So saber, what do you think of the other 4 who may or may not have literally suggested lynching BC?

[Kise]

@DTM

This game has taken a lot of interesting turns in the past few pages.

I believe BC more than I believe Kise

.

Vote: Kise

To me, this implies that he's picking a side between BC & myself. Lobster's 764 doesn't exactly confirm whether or not he was taking a side; he merely acknowledges that he said nothing in regards to my antagonizing earlier (which is true). But, still, I got the impression that he felt BC & I can't both be town.

[Kise]

Mafia Cop can be found here. Mafia Traitor Cop can be found here

What I'm getting at is that it's possible for only 1 cop role to be in a game, and it can be mafia, so there doesn't have to be a counterclaim to disprove whether a cop is town or mafia aligned. The psychology of things is that town generally trust the cop. DTM, I'm not going to press this issue further, but before BC's fullclaim, I genuinely thought we could have been dealing with mafia cop. If you noticed, the two links I gave you were recent games of mine where the mafia has had a cop role... I figured 3rd time would be a charm ITT, lol.

And I admit I may have looked too far into lobster's post where he votes, but my eyebrow was raised after he said "I'm more believing of BC than I believe Kise." It struck me as him picking a side, but I'll wait for him to respond and clear that up.

[Kise]

The issue w/ BC & me has been proven unncessary, but with the bad comes the good. I think it's a fair chance that another night mafia (including SSK) got a hard-on once seeing a case was made on the night-shift cop. The way SSK calls people stupid for not wanting to lynch BC makes it obvious what his alignment is.

[Kise]

Neutral? WTF???

[Kise]

Hold on, if you're a cop, then why was it stupid for people to believe was also BC town cop?

[Kise]

Lmfao, I fuggin' butchered that sentence in 796.

***to believe BC was also town cop***

Fixed. And... OK then. Neutral would mean SB is not mafia, but not town. He can be dealt with in LyLo if he isn't killed.

But now this introduces a whole 'nother level to this complex game.. It's funny that I'd link Scott you based on how hard he was defending you, pre-claim. And to boot, he's going after SW, who you now reveal you got a neutral result back from.

Speaking of which, how did you come to get a neutral result? I thought it was only 'guilty' & 'innocent' ???

[Kise]

It's funny that I'd link you to Scott based on how hard he is detracting from your lynch

****

---

Vote Count:

saberwolf(2)

- Platypus_Dude, Scott Brosius

Kise(4)

- Battle Mage, Bekkatha, Sando, lobstermania

MafiaSSK(5)

- Kise, BloodCovenent, DTMaster, saberwolf, xRECKONERx

Not Voting(2)

- MafiaSSK, iPeanut

Deadline:

24/8/09 15:45 Central Time

7 to Lynch
4 to Lynch at deadline

[Kise]

I can't guarantee that Sabre is actually town but an SK in the game is quite unlikely (look at the night kill results I doubt that the SK's kills crossed with night mafia and/or got protected 2 nights in a row).

Neutral/3rd-Party could also indicate Survivor. Check this link out for other roles -->

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... hird-party

But, I have my doubts that SSK is cop and really investigated saber. We'll see soon.

[Kise]

Unvote, Vote: MafiaSSK

Kise tomorrow please. This whole distraction is blatantly to bail him out.

BM

Distraction? Did you not read SSK getting caught in a lie? This is a genuine lynch.

[Kise]

If at least 1 scum does not get lynched/killed before D5, I suggest a massclaim tomorrow. With the doc gone, the masons gone, and the cop already outed, I see why no one else is in danger of dying. I'm still thinking there's 3-4 scum total in this game, so tomorrow would be the best day to massclaim.

Vote: Sando

for not hammering after we caught SSK in a lie. Also,

FoS: Platy

based on small things from days 1 & 2 (heckling Snow w/ CB; not being fussed at for day-vig speculation).

[Kise]

BBS - Sunday night or early Monday

[Kise]

OK, so now I'm dayscum? Then why would I lead a lynch on SSK if I was? And if I'm nightscum, then why would I hammer CB instead of stay on V/LA and drag the day out longer?

[Kise]

Bussing? How about the others who were distancing? Take a look at those who weren't on the CB or SSK wagons, and even those that barely mentioned CB & SSK. If I was scum, it'd be rather stupid of me to eliminate a scumbuddy, knowing that my team had to not only compete against the town, but also a rival faction.

Going by your "I'm willing to hammer" statement, does this mean you don't want to converse any further with me?

Does anyone plan to put pressure on Bekk, or will she be allowed to continually coast through the game? She's playing like khamisa for the most part.

[Kise]

I don't care about anyone making a case on Bekk. The fact of the matter is that every time she's posted in here, it's usually laced with the popular vote-wagon. All I'm pointing out is how unhelpful she has been, and there's probably at least 1 more person who is coasting.

Case or not, it'd be a shame if she was mafia that went unnoticed. BC semi-cleared her, but even he said it didn't mean much.

[Kise]

Nah, no one else is coasting. iPeanut is the person I was thinking about. He is more involved with the game and is not a "speak when spoken to" type of person, if you catch my drift.

[Kise]

I've referenced my dislike of Sando's actions in more than a few post. Any opinions I had on D1 might have changed due to circumstance, obviously. Otherwise, I'd be tunneling while simultaneously having a blind-eye to other people's scumminess. I've already gone over why I had that drawn out "feud" with BC, which was coupled with my own recent experience with mafia cops. Irregardless of how passionate I felt when going through the process against BC, the fact of the matter is that after gaining full understanding of his ability, I no longer had reason to question him on where he got the knowledge of CB definitely being night mafia. Also, I never got around to that case on you/Emp because it was a link to BC that included voting patterns/following, but it is long past appropriate of me if I were to still shed light on what I saw.

Bekk's name came up after you mentioned a bussing theory regarding me and the two known scum, so I countered by introducing a distancing theory regarding those who haven't interacted much with the known scum. Bekk came to mind due to her absence during SSK's crucifixion; thinking further, I wondered why no one has demanded more activity from her in order to get a decent read on her. And FTR, a bussing theory is so broad that it can encompass more players than myself, so it strikes me as a rather meager implication.

Your iso read means little to me, honestly. Call it arrogance, but I'd be willing to bet that an iso read on someone else will express their change in opinion during the course of a few phases. Sure, I may have gotten on Konowa/Reck & BC's cases, but I drop them when I see there is no longer a valid faith that I need to pursue them. Reck was on both of the scum's wagons, so I feel good about him. BC explained how he was certain of there being 2 different mafia factions, so I backed off of him. Everyone's updated actions will effect how I feel about their alignment. Wasn't that the case with me D2 when everyone switched over from my wagon to SSK's?

Some view me as speaking too soon, or being too aggressive with my approach, but I get the answers that help to determine another's alignment [IME]. I wouldn't say that any of my comments or gauging have been in vain. I find it is always better to scrape as much information out of someone as possible, as opposed to being gullible enough to settle for what someone says in a non-thorough manner.

DTM, you mention that I have used deflecting-tactics in 907. Basically, it is how I get you to open your eyes to other possibilities that you may have never imagined ITT (didn't I open the door to SSK's lynch?). What else must I comment on? Really, how else would you yourself argue to others who are using a bussing theory against you? I can't disprove a theory because it is not factual; it is simply experimental. So, my way of countering this theory is by deterring (or deflecting as you put it) from what I view as non-sense.

I have no case on Bekk, so I don't know why you're insinuating that I have the ability to construct one (are you?). I am urging her to help myself and others get a read on her by not lurking about. We're closer than ever to the MyLo stage, so, really, everyone should be urged to participate much more and allow those with no extra abilities, such as myself, to have a fair chance to judge you since discussion is all I can go by to make an assessment on others.

And.. another thing... You say I made weak points against falko, but, psychology sure did payoff, because he (and SSK) had a scum role and I picked that up based on his "luck with this" comment. I seriously believe that if I had not pestered SSK (I did so for the longest time) about his refusal to answer my questions, and if he were not NK'd, then he more than likely would have stayed in the background and let everyone else babble on, waiting to attach his vote to a mislynch. DTM, if you want to bring up weak points on people, then how can you not view this bussing theory as weak, and highly experimental?

I am Barack Obama, and I approve this message.

[Kise]

Almost forgot -->

As far as that "name-drop" situation goes, I felt good about Platy's play at the time, so I did not want him to come under the same fire I was going through for my speculation on nhammen being DK'd by an independent role. It wasn't until I began thinking further on the matter that I realized that I'm catching a load of flack for my JOAT referencing (which was not fishing... If you think it was fishing, then please explain how my "tactic" could have worked as such?), while Platy was someone who referenced a day-vig being responsible. He had his belief, and I had mine. But after a while, I said "screw this" and name-dropped him, eventually.

However, that form of name-dropping can not compare to my request that iPeanut give the names of those who expressed certainty of 2 mafia factions. Why, you ask? Because I'm a townie that referenced a day-killing role and caught shit for it, and I did not want to "deflect" (:)) and put the same unnecessary attention on Platy who I felt was a townie sharing the same mindset as me when he first viewed nhammen's death scene. But when it comes to iPeanut's recollection of those who mentioned 2 factions, it's different due to the fact that it can implicate those players who slipped up on their inside knowledge, therefore they can be examined as those who are more than likely scum.

[Kise]

Reck was on both of the scum's wagons, so I feel good about him.

[Kise]

DTM, again, I don't feel the need for a case against Bekk or the need for her to be lynched. I questioned you and others on why something as important as player activity has not been discussed during this phase.

And I used more than falko's "luck with this" comment when I voted for SSK. falko only added fuel, but SSK was insistent about not answering the questions I asked him, so his dodginess was very deserving of my vote (on a personal level as well).

[Kise]

@Kise

:< How odd. You are pointing fingers but not willing to go to the next level of case building/potential analysis of lynching yet. If Bekk isn't an ideal lynch today who would you consider lynching with the current information?

((Are you taunting me?))
I feel like Sando is scum. He thinks it was a bad thing for me to bring up the Jack of All Trades, then he [surely] was trying to finagle me into claiming to be JOAT (he expressed how disappointed he was that I claimed VT instead). He hasn't explained how I fished for a JOAT to out themselves. I never did anything to beckon that kind of role to expose themselves, so that's why I don't get why he thought it was a big stink. Point blank, I know he was expecting to hear from me that I was the JOAT, or perhaps knew which player it could be. I already called him out for his fishing, but he jokingly played it off by saying I was talking about myself instead and not him.

Scott would have been my #2 based on how he wasn't paying the SSK wagon any attention, but Sando was always #1 going into today.

Yes the rest of your argument presented a strong scum case against SSK, but you are gloating about your "falco read"

Call it gloating if you want, but the fact of the matter is that I've played enough games as mafia & with mafia to know the MO of a scum player. No matter if you think I was being pompous (I wasn't; I was corroborating my scumhunting), falko is responsible for that patch of dirt left on SSK.

The other argument you presented was a false lead since it was:

SSK is probable-nightscum thanks to not only his recent comments, but also due to inheritence of the person he's replacing for.

Reading through that page, I see no one else coming to CB's aid. But Platy apparently heckled Snow White just as CB did. But I'm thinking Platy asked her 1st.

This assumes that falco/SSK was partnered with CB as night scum. SSK flipped day scum. But the result still ended up in a scum lynch, but your hunch was wrong in it's reasoning.

OK...? You want me to feel bad or something? Let's go over my quote again -->

SSK is

probable

-nightscum

Probable, not definite.

Either way, I'm still not impressed with your posts on the case.

I opened the case and got 2 others behind me. You sealed the case with your day miller counterclaim (convenient it wasn't night miller, BTW), so congrats. I suppose you really did put the nail in the coffin on the SSK lynch. You can take all credit for it, it doesn't matter to me.

@Whomever - What specific actions of BM's made him obv-town in your eyes?

[Kise]

This/these question(s)?

Kise, I'm curious as to why you jumped to JOAT rather than a vig or SK, afaik they're much more common. Why would a JOAT use their one-shot kill so early?

(1) When I think daykill, I automatically think of JOAT. I find SK's & vig's as common nightkillers instead. (2) Depends on who would be the JOAT. The way I view this question is something similar to a trap; a scummer would ask this question expecting me to unintentionally softclaim JOAT by giving a convincing reason why nhammen was chosen for the 1-shot kill.

@DTM - Here's some older exchanges between us -->

Why did you need to know why I believed JOAT daykilled nhammen instead of a day-vig or SK? What info could be gathered by my reply? (2 separate questions; please treat them as such)

These questions?

I thought it very odd for a claimed VT to jump to a JOAT conclusion over 2 more common killing roles, and over a 2nd scum group.

I thought you had more information than you were giving

, and as a claimed VT, that would mean you were lying with your claim, lying tends to be a scum move.

What info could be gathered? Whether you were lying, and scum lie.

He thought I had more info.... Am I the only one who identifies this as a fisher's comment?

Thought I had more info? Like, knew a JOAT killed nhammen because I was in fact the JOAT? Your reasons are weak, Sando. You're saying that I fakeclaimed VT, and I could've been a JOAT? OK, so why would you vote me if I was really JOAT; a pro-town role?

Now, watch as my 1st question goes unanswered.

So a cop can be scum but not JOAT? Nice call buddy.

I do not believe that you are a town-JOAT. Everything you've done has been pretty anti-town, as I've said, repeatedly. If you're a JOAT and kill a pro-town player in Nhamm, then you're likely to be scum. If you're a vig, and there is no day scum, something I find unlikely, then you've killed townies both days.

No, I don't believe you're a town-JOAT.

To this moment, I don't believe Sando has directly told me what "info" he thought I had.

From Post 666 (:twisted:) onward, view every exchange between Sando & I. The foundation of my suspicion towards him is that his methods of question-asking were an attempt to get a JOAT claim from me.

[Kise]

Why do you keep ignoring the fact that all of the questions came AFTER you had claimed VT?

What does that have to do with anything? I could've sworn you said you don't believe my claim. But regardless of my claim, the point is that you don't believe I am VT. The door

was

still open to you wanting to believe I was JOAT. You can't have your cake and eat it. Either you believe I'm VT (your vote says otherwise), or you don't believe the VT claim, which I feel means you previously tried to see if I was really JOAT. You have your side of theorizing, and I have mine. Neither of us are believing the other, so all is fair in my book.

You've also role-fished an insane amount. Your VT claim was, by your own admission, designed to get every VT in the game outed. That's a retardedly stupid thing for a VT to do.

I never admitted that I only claimed to draw out other VT's. There was a time when I said that if it comes to it, I can clear any other VT by putting them through a test (Seraphim later told me not to do it). First of all, I claimed because saberwolf asked me. Second, I was at L-2 or L-1 when I tried to prove I was a VT by saying how many words were in my role PM. It was a desperate time for me, so I did what I had to do, but it wasn't like I tried to lure VT's out when I was far from the danger of being lynched.

You forced BC to completely reveal his role, when it wasn't necessary, and in doing so removed one more trap for scum to fall into when fake-claiming.

BC jumped out the water initially. I did ability fish by asking if he performed his task during twilight or night, but that went unanswered either way. The manner that he had to fullclaim was when I continually questioned his knowledge of CB being night team mafia, which is different than me asking if he performs during night or twilight.

Scumhunting is NOT FISHING. You know who also has more info? SCUM, that's what you are, and that's what I thought you were then.

Ok, so me as scum would know what kind of information exactly about a JOAT being present in this game? And better yet,

HOW would I know?

Info you had? I think you knew that day-mafia had made the kill and were trying to lead town away from that conclusion, muddy the water per say.

Gotta be kidding me... I'm not buying this..

Especially not after you heckled me with questions about, "Why JOAT, and not vig or SK?" You were looking for a specific reason why I mentioned JOAT.

If your answer is really because you thought I was using smoke & mirrors to cover up the day mafia's tracks, then I don't see why you even bothered asking me why I was disbelieving of a dayvig & SK.

While I'm at it, let me point out that I had a hand in lynching day mafia. You, on the other hand, didn't. For someone who pays so much attention to detail, I'm surprised you seemed to have missed the part where SSK was caught in a lie and instead of voting (or even antagonizing) him, you were apparently believing to him being a daycop and merely mentioned how his neutral result was strange.

Yes, let's ignore the posts before that, when you claimed VT... That couldn't possibly be relevent, no, not at all. Let's not actually look at what happened between you bringing up JOAT and claiming. Yes, let's ignore the most important part of the JOAT/VT claim (the actual JOAT and VT claim), because that doesn't help your bogus case.

Post 666 onward has enough info to explain my vote on you. The VT claim is a post of mine, therefore not the exact start of why I'm voting you. But I did some more digging. Here & the bottom of this post are earlier moments where I begin to suspect you.

Why would a JOAT work in the daytime compared to SKs/Vigs/Scum?

You yourself should already know that a JOAT's 1-shot kill is [typically] a daykill, since you decided to ask me why the JOAT would use it on nhammen.

Considering that afaik one of the JOATs actions is a one-protect doc, why would they protect during the day? Please tell me why you think a JOAT is more likely day than anything else.

They don't 1-shot protect during the day phase... That's an ability that's used once the thread is locked -- when frequent-kills are allowed by mafia, vig's, SK's, or whoever else. And they do not always get the same 1-shot abilities, FYI. Also, when did I give you the impression that I thought ALL of a JOAT's abilities were usable during day phase?

The way I view this question is something similar to a trap; a scummer would ask this question expecting me to unintentionally softclaim JOAT by giving a convincing reason why nhammen was chosen for the 1-shot kill.

You had already claimed VT, I was not going to believe you claiming JOAT later, so any extra information would point to you being scum.

If the impression is that I'm claimed-VT, still,

why did you ask me why a JOAT would use their 1-shot so early?

Just answer me by telling me ANY [reasonable] answer you expected to hear from me, i.e. what you were fishing for .

I'm really confused as to why I'm getting accused of role-fishing a claimed VT... Can anyone answer this for me? Kise seems to want to ignore this inconvenient fact.

I've answered it. You're exaggerating reactions in an attempt to discredit me by painting me as some annoying thorn in your side.

Bottom line is that I mentioned JOAT, then later claimed VT, and somehow you call me mafia

that has information about a JOAT existing in this game

, even after the write-ups have established that I cannot be mafia that

has information

about a JOAT because any actions of a JOAT have not been seen.

[Kise]

Bolded parts are suitable for those that want a TL;DR version.

[Kise]

My hydra account, yes.

I feel like there's something else I was meant to comment on...

[Kise]

Ah, here we are!

As a refresher: has Kise claimed yet? Did he not claim cop? Or am I just retarded?

Option #3...?

So you specifically ask everyone whether they believe your VT claim, then post this:

@All - If you don't believe my VT claim, then, well... I must be the only VT left. My paraphrasing of my role PM is as identical as I could make it. There are a few people who didn't comment on my question, but in the event anyone else wants me to clear them as a VT, I have a good test.

This looks like a pretty obvious attempt at getting all the VTs to agree/disagree with you.

One person unvoted after my desperation move (about the # of words in my role PM). The point was to narrow who was anything but a VT from a personal perspective. Once no one believed my VT claim, I stepped forward and announced why I kept asking who believed me. But if at least one person admitted to believing the role claim, I would not have mentioned the possibility of me being the last VT, but no harm in announcing it after the fact.

Ok, so me as scum would know what kind of information exactly about a JOAT being present in this game? And better yet, HOW would I know?

None, you wouldn't know most likely, unless you're a scum-cop, but you could be merely trying to muddy the water and throw suspicion off yourself.

None??? The answer I get is none??? Then it was pointless of you to say I knew more than I should. And you didn't even know about the scum-cop being a real role until I told you about it.

Especially not after you heckled me with questions about, "Why JOAT, and not vig or SK?" You were looking for a specific reason why I mentioned JOAT.

Heckled? Really? Asking "Kise, I'm curious as to why you jumped to JOAT rather than a vig or SK, afaik they're much more common" is heckling?

Yes... You wanted to know my motive in mentioning JOAT and why I dismissed the possibility of dayvig or day-SK.

Post 666 onward has enough info to explain my vote on you. The VT claim is a post of mine, therefore not the exact start of why I'm voting you. But I did some more digging. Here & the bottom of this post are earlier moments where I begin to suspect you.

Haha, I love that your posts that you've linked are both you over-reacting to a 2 line question I asked, a question I asked in a post where

I clearly didn't even suspect you

.

So I'm only supposed to suspect those who suspect me first? Isn't that what we call being OMGUS??

You yourself should already know that a JOAT's 1-shot kill is [typically] a daykill, since you decided to ask me why the JOAT would use it on nhammen.

Wait, what? Here's how this goes down: You say 'I think a JOAT killed Nhamm', I ask why you think this, you say I'm role-fishing.

I didn't know that a JOATs kill is a day-kill, still don't. I asked why he would use it on Nhamm after you said you thought a JOAT had killed Nhamm...

A simple answer here is that the JOAT found nhammen suspicious... That's pretty much the purpose of killing someone.

If the impression is that I'm claimed-VT, still, why did you ask me why a JOAT would use their 1-shot so early? Just answer me by telling me ANY [reasonable] answer you expected to hear from me, i.e. what you were fishing for Wink.

It's called scumhunting Kise, you should try it some time. I was asking you to tell me why you thought a JOAT was responsible

Ok, again, Sando, give me a reaonable answer that you expected to hear from me after you asked why a Jack would use their 1-shot so early. Please? Pretty please?

Bottom line is that I mentioned JOAT, then later claimed VT, and somehow you call me mafia that has information about a JOAT existing in this game, even after the write-ups have established that I cannot be mafia that has information about a JOAT because any actions of a JOAT have not been seen.

Stop claiming that I'm only concerned about is your JOAT. It's your blatant role-fishing since then that has driven my votes on you.

Alright, but I still don't get what's so scummy about me mentioning JOAT. It's not like I asked them to verify that they existed by stepping forward, so I don't see the purpose of jumping down my throat about it.

I get a feeling that the confusion here is that you didn't know, that I myself didn't know, about day scum at the time so that was why JOAT was even mentioned. It still doesn't explain why your questions want me to specify certain things that a JOAT would have done if it were existing in this game & killed nhammen. And I'm still uneasy about your indifference towards SSK's fakeclaim. You said his neutral result didn't make sense, but he didn't earn your vote.

[Kise]

I'm glad that there are more cases being made today, but I'll stay right where I'm at for the moment.

This reply from SSK to why he didn't think BCs claim was valid:

Because I'm a cop too.

This makes no sense given that he knew the flavour of cop, IE that he could only get guilties on day mafia, so any reasonable person would given credence to the idea of another cop, and a night-cop at that.

You know SSK is bullshittin' about being day-cop because he wants BC lynched for having a similar ability, but thinks only one sheriff can be in town. At this point, once you realized he was lying, you should have bussed him.

I'm trying to wrap my head around the 'neutral' result. I would have thought a cop would get a guilty on a anti-town role like SK. Also, why claim it if it's not true? It makes the claim much less believable, and best case scenario for the claimer is we believe it's an SK and lynch them.

It's almost like you know SSK is pulling material out his ass, but you want to believe so badly that he's not lying. Asking SSK why he would claim if it's not true seems like some kind of sneaky instructing.

I don't see why a real cop would get that result, or why a fake-cop would claim it. Also, none of the sanity's would return a neutral result afaik.

Definitely looks like coaching here, but SSK's idea flopped way before this point, and you not only neglected voting, but also didn't give a finger or hand of suspicion or... well, nothing at all.

You were one of those who expected me to claim JOAT. Need I remind you of your quote that you did NOT answer and only deflected?

Yes, because your talk of JOAT made no sense otherwise.

See this, everyone? All those questions he had, because he expected me to claim JOAT. Like I said, he was fishing.

@DTM - What's up with your BSG-love? If that has anything to do with Starbuck, that's the other person I'm hydra'ing with, so I'm unfamiliar with BSG.

---

Vote Count:

Kise(4)

- Sando, Bekkatha, lobstermania, saberwolf

Sando(1)

- Kise

lobstermania(3)

- Platypus_Dude, BloodCovenent, xRECKONERx

Not Voting(2)

- iPeanut, DTMaster

6 to Lynch
4 to Lynch at Deadline

Deadline:

2/10/09 13:35 Central Time

[Kise]

@Everyone else - If someone asks you

why you mention JOAT rather than dayvig or day-SK, and why they 1-shotted so early

, what do you interpret they're looking for?

I get a feeling that the confusion here is that you didn't know, that I myself didn't know, about day scum at the time so that was why JOAT was even mentioned.

Yet you accuse me of being scumbuddies with SSK, he was day mafia, get your story straight next time scum.

........ I'm saying that

I'm

the only one who didn't know about day scum.

@DTM - lobster's got 3 votes on him. Otherwise, the vote count at the top of page 39 is the same, + the 3 who are voting lobster. Also, I know it looks circular between Sando & I, but mostly because there were unanswered questions that I had to keep asking.

It's almost like you know SSK is pulling material out his ass, but you want to believe so badly that he's not lying.

So on the one hand, I should have bussed my partner in SSK, but now you think I wanted desperately to believe him? You should really try and make up your mind as to what you're accusing me of.

You like making plays on my words, don't you? Thing is, every sentence where you express your confusion about SSK's statements make it evident that you knew he wasn't telling the truth. But instead of calling him out for his lie, you simply tell him how to plan out his fakeclaim next time.

[Kise]

JFK...

I get a feeling that the confusion here is that you didn't know,

that I myself didn't know, about day scum

at the time so that was why JOAT was even mentioned.

The commas are there to serve as proper use of grammar.

@BC - I was seeing if Platy was scum with anybody else. It was weird for him & I to have similar views about who did nhammen in, but only for people to question me about it. I see now that people questioned me because before I voted for CB, it was already discussed that there was day mafia. So at the time I voted, I was pretty much the only one not knowing about 2 factions.

@all - I won't be home until tomorrow night, but if lobster is claiming VT, lynch him. I already gave him a chance to see if he believed my paraphrasing etc. but he didn't, so he doesn't have the VT role PM.

[Kise]

Do you have other reasons for suspecting Sando to be scum?

Him not voting or FoS'ing SSK for a blatant fakeclaim. I don't care if anyone else follows my reasons. I've said all I feel I need to say. Sando is choosing to play with me now, so..

[Kise]

@iPeanut - MM, CJ & nhammen have all flipped (regular) townie. I'm not too sure if 2 millers is accurate, but your 3NM/3DM set-up looks more appropriate. It is also possible that they aren't evenly balanced, but we have yet to confirm that.

[Kise]

Unvote; Vote: lobster

---

Vote Count:

Kise(3)

- Sando, lobstermania, saberwolf

lobstermania(4)

- Platypus_Dude, BloodCovenent, xRECKONERx, Kise

Not Voting(3)

- iPeanut, DTMaster, Bekkatha

6 to Lynch
4 to Lynch at Deadline

Deadline:

2/10/09 13:35 Central Time

[Kise]

I won't be home until tomorrow night, but if lobster is claiming VT, lynch him. I already gave him a chance to see if he believed my paraphrasing etc. but he didn't, so he doesn't have the VT role PM.

This BC countered your proof that you were VT when he said his role PM was also divisible by the same number of words.

How does that counter? Besides, I also paraphrased my role PM. You should have re-checked your PM if you were really VT and compared it.

[Kise]

What the hell was I doing at the Black Mesa facility?

[Kise]

I should have stuck with my suspicion of Konowa/RECK, I see. I think maybe we should conduct a test.

Vote: No Lynch

If Reckoner takes out a townie, he's bound to be nightkilled and night scum win. If Reckoner takes out night scum, then the town will surely lynch him the next day.

On the flipside, if Reck does not kill anyone but the night scum (Plat?) kills him, then town will lynch the night scum to secure victory. If Reck does not kill and the night scum kills a townie, we're in a 1 vs 1 vs 1 situation. In my experience, the game continues until there are 2 deciding votes for a lynch. So, yeah, only 1 side can win this, fellas.

Unless of course the mafia are trusting enough of each other to kill both townies.... but you love me, don't you RECK?

[Kise]

Vote: xRECKONERx

(Thanks?)

[Kise]

Seriously?

Unvote

I'll bite. I suppose we'll give the game a climatic ending.. I'm a little lost though on why you would take this gamble if it's true. iPeanut didn't have to claim, so you could have been known as the only scum who revealed himself. You would not have been lynched for it because then iPeanut could NK a townie and win, but if he shot you and you flipped VT, then that'd leave 2 mafia & 1 townie. The town would not have a chance in that scenario.

[Kise]

Yeah, I could see it as being true... I want to hear from Plat before I say why though.

[Kise]

Still trying to figure out the best way my faction can win.

This is what made me think you were scum yesterday. The word 'faction' is applied to a group of people

who know each other

. The town has no clue whether the next person is with them or against them.

[Kise]

Yeah, why?

[Kise]

Sorry to be a dick, but if you're mafia, I recognize this trick. You want to manipulate my opinions and use it to help mafia win. IF you're mafia, as I said.

Can you give me your read on Plat first (and me/Bekk I guess) before I tell you how I feel? I just don't want you using my same material to build a case on him.

[Kise]

xRECKONERx:

As I said during my past life, you were on the wagon of two different scum, so I felt like you were town since then. There was that one time when I didn't like Konowa's D1 behavior, and I even got into a disagreement with you, but with you lynching night & day mafia, I do/did think you were pro-town up until claiming day mafia.

Platypus_Dude:

I thought he looked pretty good early on. I was curious why no one questioned him about his day vig speculation, and after rethinking, I thought maybe his partners were giving me heat but ignoring his comment on nhammen's death. Before I died, I pegged remaining anti-town as Sando (honestly thought he was), lobster and either Bekk or Platy. I had small suspicions that DTM was lying about being a miller, and after Sando claimed doc and DTM got caught, I thought about who the last scum were. I was still sold on Bekk or Plat, but to my surprise iPeanut was friggin' night mafia. Yeah, Platy is lurking pretty badly, pretty much ever since I was accusing BC of being mafia cop.

If you're town, you made one helluva bold move there, Reck (or should we start calling each other by our real names?). But the thought still sits in the back of my mind that this was your plan all along; to get iPeanut to expose himself, kill him, then come out the next day and say you tricked everybody.

This is not an easy decision because I've been suspicious of Plat, but I'm on the fence about your day mafia godfather claim.

[Kise]

fac·tion 1 (fkshn)
n.
1. A group of persons forming a

cohesive

, usually contentious

minority

within

a larger group

.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/faction

[Kise]

When do you think you'll finish with that re-read Plat?

[Kise]

All of the above, lol. J/K

[Kise]

Zito?

the thing that irritates him about me is that I was on every lynch? Oh, you mean the ones

where we lynched day scum and night scum, too

? How is it anti-town to be on every scum lynch so far?

Yeah... we pretty much haven't lynched a townie since Day 1. Not sure what you were going for with that, Plat, but it makes RECK look a helluva lot more convincing.

I'm ready to make my decision. I just screwed the game for my town elsewhere [LyLo], so I'm not going to out think myself again.

Any questions you guys have, ask away. My next post will likely be a vote if there's nothing left to discuss.

[Kise]

Actually, that just goes to show that you weren't paying attention to the game, Plat. If you took the time to see that RECK was on every lynch, you should have noticed he was lynching anti-town.

[Kise]

Being on every lynch. Weeks ago, I told you it was because you lynched two different kinds of scum. And now, you've lynched 4 damn scum.

Plat voted for night scum (lobster) and pretty much pioneered the foundations for a case against him. His next vote for DTM served as the hammer, when everyone pretty much figured out that DTM was the only miller and that he was lying. What's funny is that DTM votes for Plat and says either Plat or Peanut is night scum.

[Kise]

Do you think I'm town, or do you just think Plat is being scummy?

[Kise]

Anything else, guys?

[Kise]

Okie dokie.

Vote: Platypus_Dude

[Kise]

If Reck isn't lying, then we won, SW.

[Kise]

"decides to eat some cupcakes"

You just couldn't wait, could ya?

Basically, I wanted revenge against the night mafia for killing me. I was good with winning as either alignment, and I honestly didn't check my role PM until RECK revealed that he was in fact NOT the day mafia godfather, so I scratched my head and went to see if it was little ol' me.

At that point, I figured Plat wouldn't be in a rush to lynch Reck, so I may as well see if I can get town to wagon themselves in lylo for a 2nd time in my career. Didn't go that way, but still worked in day scum's favor.

GG, all. I escaped so many lynches when I was town, lol. I could only be taken down via castration.

[Kise]

Not rubbing it in your faces. Just saying, if Reck wasn't lying about being townie, then we (day mafia) win the game.

I tell the truth... even when I lie.

[Kise]

<3 Kise 2.0. You avatar worked.

Told ya!

your one double edged blade of a man Kise.

Us ninjas have to excel in the artform of disguise.

[Kise]

I just noticed that the Day mafia was comprised of replacements.