Mini 1758: Game Over

[Lokiben]

VOTE: SirCakez

I didn't know you were in this game...

[Lokiben]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: curiouskarmadog

Triple post is a no-no

Short introduction: I have six or eight completed FM games under my belt from elsewhere on the web. I know Cakez from these games, and that's why I invited him to join me in this game. I have dropped out of two games due to RL on Mafiascum. Once I adjust to the meta here, I should be good to go. GL all

[Lokiben]

If you know what movie that is from I won't lynch you today

Inglorious Bastards?

Snaps for you!!!

UNVOTE:

VOTE: curiouskarmadog

Triple post is a no-no

Short introduction: I have six or eight completed FM games under my belt from elsewhere on the web. I know Cakez from these games, and that's why I invited him to join me in this game. I have dropped out of two games due to RL on Mafiascum. Once I adjust to the meta here, I should be good to go. GL all

VOTE: Lokiben

Don't like "triple post is a no-no", don't like the forced explanation of why he invited Cakez to join him (though it does render my original thought useless)

Ok. If it was forced, which it wasn't, what possible scum motive could have fueled me making such an announcement? I'm completely new to this RV stage, and I was just following examples set by posts like this:

PS..Hi CKD. I haven't seen you in a million years! Elyse, too.

And that's not a contradiction. I gave Cakez an open invitation and hadn't realized that he accepted it.

UNVOTE:

I think you're reading far too much into a joke post by Zulfy and not reading far enough into tictac calling him out for what was obviously a joke.

Ehh. My intepretation of tictac's actions was mostly town-motivated. That post is definitely what launched us out of RVS, even if it was through a fallacy. Actually, my initial impression was that it was an intentional reaction test, or discussion starter because the humor was to basic to not be grasped.

[Lokiben]

Also I was actually right, if Lokiben is scum, then SirCakez is town.

K den. Is this the most you're going to acknowledge that last post written specifically for you?

Otherwise I'm going to assume that you had no motivation other than stirring up trouble. Also, tell me why you don't like "Triple post is a no-no". I don't want to hear that you thought I was trying to dampen discussion by encouraging the limitation of double or triple posts because why would I do that, and how would I wield enough influence to do that?

Your other site is avatar-free?

On my other site, I went for months without an avatar. I never received a complaint about it, let alone an in-game FoS. It was never a critical part of my identity and the fact that it seems to be such an integral part of the game here surprises me. Therefore, I don't think it's worth judging SRMP, because he's probably in the same boat as I am.

[Lokiben]

I do.

[Lokiben]

I feel like the avatar argument was bordering absurd, but again, I wouldn't be the one to know. Can someone else please clarify whether camn's gripe was legitimate for me?

[Lokiben]

I feel like the avatar argument was bordering absurd, but again, I wouldn't be the one to know. Can someone else please clarify whether camn's gripe was legitimate for me?

To clarify, I don't mean legitimate as in serious, I mean as in justified.

[Lokiben]

Also I was actually right, if Lokiben is scum, then SirCakez is town.

K den. Is this the most you're going to acknowledge that last post written specifically for you?

D'awwww

Otherwise I'm going to assume that you had no motivation other than stirring up trouble.

What do you mean by stirring up trouble?

What do you think I mean?

Also, tell me why you don't like "Triple post is a no-no". I don't want to hear that you thought I was trying to dampen discussion by encouraging the limitation of double or triple posts because why would I do that, and how would I wield enough influence to do that?

First I'd like to hear why you think a triple post is a no-no.

First I'd like to hear why you thought I was serious.

I don't understand how I'm suddenly on the defensive here. It's your turn to explain yourself.

I have not been paying much attention to the lurkers at all, tbh. Will go back later and decide which one is lurkiest, and therefore deserving of my vote.

I didn't know you were in this game...

that's why I invited him to join me in this game.

Yeah. That is weird.
But is it scum-weird or newb-weird?

Very weird.

Check yo-self. I already explained this. And 'very weird' isn't even a response to tictac's question. It's just fluff.

Ok. If it was forced, which it wasn't, what possible scum motive could have fueled me making such an announcement? I'm completely new to this RV stage, and I was just following examples set by posts like this:

PS..Hi CKD. I haven't seen you in a million years! Elyse, too.

So it wasn't forced, but you were following an example in posting it? Those two aren't all that far off methinks.

By 'forced', I meant 'in a clumsy attempt to seem relaxed, composed, and townie-like while actually sweating buckets because I'm secretly a nervous scumbag', not simply staying on subject.

[Lokiben]

hi loki! how are you

Busy

How's it going, my fav MAA?

[Lokiben]

/inb4 scum buddying me

[Lokiben]

Can't you just remember him as the one guy without an avatar?

[Lokiben]

You cannot be serious. I asked the first questions, which you have not responded to, and I gave your questions the answers they deserve.

[Lokiben]

Your question about the scum motivation fueling your vote?

I don't think your RVS vote had some ulterior scum motive. It was just stilted and awkward, like you were trying to fit in and act town.

D'awww.

Then what possible value was there in pointing that out? It's completely pointless if you don't think that it has anything to do with scuminess. Furthermore, it should have been obvious to you that people were going to misinterpret what you said as based on a possibility of scum behavior, not personality.

You obviously were not expecting for me to push back, and you weren't prepared to defend your position. You went from heavily implying suspicion of scum motivation, to insisting you never did. Therefore, I don't believe you to be genuinely scumhunting, just nonchalantly finger pointing for the town cred.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Elyse

Other players:

RC tantalizes their reasons for scumreading camn, even goading camn to ask for their reasons:

Camn though, do you wanna know how I know you're scum?

And has been standing by that read for a while, but has still yet to explain it. This is the closest thing we've got:

Camn though, do you wanna know how I know you're scum?

As a matter of fact, RC hasn't explained any of his scum reads at all, including tictac and SirCakez

That being said, camn is a bit of a hypocrite in a general sense for arguing "Now you know that it pisses me off, so this time you have no excuse," when they've been continuing to push the stupid avatar argument while all the while knowing that everyone else believes the push to be pointless and overblown.

acryon is another rising scum read of mine. They piggyback on the avatarless witch hunt with voracity,

VOTE: Some Random Mafia Player

Not sure why the hate on you has ceased. Your lack of avatar legitimately makes your presence less memorable, which is only helpful for you if you are scum.

and then back off pretty quickly with an "It wasn't really that serious."

Plus there was that weird bit that they did on me that I already covered here.

It'd be nice if UpTooLate provided half as much material as they demanded of others.

Zulfy has only posted twice since the first day of the game and curiouskarmadog hasn't had much of a presence either. I'll cut ika some slack since he just replaced in and I don't want to judge him based on his slot's previous occupier.

[Lokiben]

It'd be nice if UpTooLate provided half as much material as they demanded of others.

I got hit with some appointments and am working on catching up, not just skimming. Why wouldn't I ask questions in the mean time?

If it's real life, then it's real life. Sorry.

[Lokiben]

And what the flip does that mean?

[Lokiben]

And you never said why you thought I was serious when I prompted you to.

I'll respond more in depth tomorrow because I'm going to sleep now but boy do I have some words.

[Lokiben]

And you never said why you thought I was serious when I prompted you to.

I'll respond more in depth tomorrow because I'm going to sleep now but boy do I have some words.

I was asking you...because I didn't know...that's how questions work.

Serious question- Did you ever see post 231, in which I answered that already in-quote in bold? Because if not, then your 247 makes much more sense to me, as my 248 should to you.

[Lokiben]

And you never said why you thought I was serious when I prompted you to.

I'll respond more in depth tomorrow because I'm going to sleep now but boy do I have some words.

I was asking you...because I didn't know...that's how questions work.

Why was your assumption that my RVS vote wasn't for RVS reasons?

Furthermore, if you are in fact acknowledging that you saw my post in which I essentially asserted (I say essentially because it was a rhetorical question, not a direct assertion) that it was not a serious vote here,

All I see is you asking me why I thought you were serious and not answering my question...

then why did you claim to have never gotten an answer here?:

especially since your reason was awful. (triple post is a no-no???)

RVS vote, RVS reason.

I thought so at first but his response made me think otherwise. Plus he never said why a triple post is a no-no.

And if you weren't satisfied with my response to the question on trouble making, I'll spell it out for you: You were flinging out FoSs because you were trying to plant seeds of doubt using whatever excuse you could, not because you believed what you were saying. I believe this to be true because you rescinded your FoS on me as soon as I retaliated, as I've already said. The developments since post in which I detailed this only further cement my read.

To recap, because I want to encourage more people to take a closer look at what is going on here:

I say I'm suspicious of you for pushing a weak case upon me. You immediately back off with:

Your question about the scum motivation fueling your vote?

I don't think your RVS vote had some ulterior scum motive. It was just stilted and awkward, like you were trying to fit in and act town.

"

NO ULTERIOR SCUM MOTIVE

" (Remember this for later)

Then I say,

D'awww.

Then what possible value was there in pointing that out? It's completely pointless if you don't think that it has anything to do with scuminess. Furthermore, it should have been obvious to you that people were going to misinterpret what you said as based on a possibility of scum behavior, not personality.

You obviously were not expecting for me to push back, and you weren't prepared to defend your position. You went from heavily implying suspicion of scum motivation, to insisting you never did. Therefore, I don't believe you to be genuinely scumhunting, just nonchalantly finger pointing for the town cred.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Elyse

Now it's obvious that I'm scumreading you for backing out of your scumread by saying you didn't have one. You just can't seem to please me, can you? You realize that backing out of the scumread isn't helping your case, so you decide to reinforce your earlier scumread instead and OMGUS your way out of this:

@lokiben

I still think you're scum...I think you're misunderstanding me. Your vote was scummy, but not in a strategic way.

I think you're scummy because your entrance was awkward and stilted (deja vu), like you were trying to provide a serious reason because it's the townie thing to do. Instead, it came off as forced and weird, especially since your reason was awful. (triple post is a no-no???)

Make sense?

This is flailing. If I said what I said to appear as a townie, that would be a strategic motivation. Elyse tries to make the case that she's scumreading me for something entirely different than what I thought she was, when it's literally the same damn terribad reason.

The kicker here is that she actually upgrades what was merely an implied FoS to a scumread, which makes her argument all the harder to swallow.



TL;DR: Elyse FoSs me for a bad reason. I call her out. She says she wasn't FoSing me. I call her out for obviously FoSing me. She changes her stance by 'clarifying' that she meant to say she was scumreading me for a completely different reason than the one I hypothesized when it's really the same damn argument.

I'm in a bit of a hurry and my mind is in a faraway place right now, so I'm sorry if I didn't stitch this case together in an extremely coherent manner, but the pieces are all here for anyone to see.

[/rekt]

~snip~

Why does RC only have 2 votes? He's literally just flipflopped between Tictac and Camn, and in between joked about being scum. There is literally nothing of substance, he's just hiding behind Camn and Tictac's interaction making comments about it.

VOTE: RadiantCowbells

This vote is icky to me. The overuse of the word literally makes it seem like UpTooLate is scum who is trying to vote a townie and found reasons. A townie is "literally" doing scummy stuff everyone look!!!

VOTE: UpTooLate

Also he's perennially catching up and not posting much substance.

It's weird to me that you would put that much focus on the use of the word "literally" here. I think your reasons following "also" are the good ones, but not the literally part.

I just want to remind both of you of this:

It'd be nice if UpTooLate provided half as much material as they demanded of others.

I got hit with some appointments and am working on catching up, not just skimming. Why wouldn't I ask questions in the mean time?

Maybe this site demands more from participants than I realize, but I think this is a valid excuse and will be so for a couple more RL days at least, as long as UTL has a good reason and manages to come around eventually. I'll +1 the 'literally'.

Growing scumread on camn for not even bothering to defend their post that acryon ripped into, especially considering that post has been their one worthwhile contribution in some time. Since they dropped the no-avatar crusade, it's been talk out meta and old games that I can't relate to, and this:

So, coming into this game, I was hoping we would be in the same team. I still am!

so you mean, you know your on the same team as tictac?

*you're

fuck grammar, answer the question.

That's a real question?

That could be a legitimate slip right there, declaring themselves to be on the same team as tictac and all, and camn decides that it isn't worth dignifying with a response.

Something I noticed from curiouskarmadog:

who here do you supposed will "read the iso"?

Anyone who is interested in finding scum?

Lets be real tho- pressure votes are pressure votes.
I gotta get back to bussing

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Tictac

wait a minute, what the fuck? who is scum?

I wanted RC to share his case since everyone was sheeping that and he had (and still hasn't) given next to no reasons.

can you explain this a little further, where did you ask RC to share anything?

I think that posts like these, where he's asking for elaboration are a little ironic considering:

Every single post by Camn pings my gut

unvote
vote Uptoolate

For that, an FoS.

[Lokiben]

Prodge. Busy tonight. Will catch up tomorrow afternoon.

[Lokiben]

Will have a catchup post in a few hours.

[Lokiben]

scumread on camn for not even bothering to defend their post that acryon ripped into, especially considering that post has been their one worthwhile contribution in some time

Plus... How are you going to say my post was both worthwhile, and somehow needed defending?
Which is it?

he probably means worthwhile as in it was your one major contribution. And defending because it was shown flawed.

Basically this. And regardless, your logic is a little backwards there, camn. If your post was worthwhile by your definition, that means you should have been able to defend it. But you didn't.

@ Loki
I think you and Elyse are both town. The underlying point of conflict between the two of you seems to be a differing conception of what basis reads should have. Elyse's reads have had more to do with tone and train of thought than with the words written or the arguments they form.

It's true that it's a weak read to say that your RVS vote was "stilted and awkward", but just as RVS votes have RVS reasons, so do the reads that bring us out of RVS. Your reaction in 124 could be interpreted as overly defensive, especially the leap to questioning "what possible scum motive" could it have had, since it clearly wasn't a calculated move. So when she said your posts were scumreads, I understood it to mean that she thought they were suggestive that you were scum, not that they were part of a scum maneuver.

Sure, but she never referenced that post. And my problem is way more than the basis of her scumread.

@ Elyse and Loki
Which do each of you think is scummiest between Tictac, Camn, SirCakez, and RC?

RC has too many unanswered questions. Funnily enough, most of what he's done is unexplained scumreads on those other three names. Apparently they've played like this before as town, so his behavior doesn't appear as indicative to others as it does to me. camn also has a lot of red flags, but they aren't being so blatantly unproductive as RC. Tictac is really eh. And I'll get to Cakez.

On phone.
Loki is readin incrediblt newbtown to me.
That said @loki yer tunneling on the Elyse thing. She's reading very town too.
Prev edit. Ok. Farmer town as well

Incredibly newb, or incredibly town, or both?

My initial reason of him being awkward is still there, but the rest of his posts are due to a giant misunderstanding that asf explained pretty eloquently. He hasn't really given me scumvibes since and his "rekt" post seemed genuine even if he was completely misguided. So yeah he's mild town for now actually.

If you want to respond to me directly and elaborate, feel free.

I promise.

I'll hold you to that
VOTE: Ika

If I take this post out of context, and ignore the fact that I'm heavily scumreading Elyse, this post really smells like scum setting up for a future wagon when ika flips town. I'll file it away in a Plan B folder.

VOTE: ika

im fine with pressuring this slot.

Was completely absent during the Cakez push, and then pops in just to drop this.

calling bullshit here. first of all, something SC said here didnt make sense giving his vote. I was trying to catch him in a lie. and yes...I did vote UTL, what I find funny/scummy here is that instead of asking me why, you just gave me an "FOS". why are you not concerned witht he "why" of the vote?

Why is it my responsibility to ask you to explain your own naked vote? If you say nothing else, I'm going to assume there's nothing else.

I'm also really not liking CKD right now. His ISO is full of questions he doesn't follow up on, naked votes that go nowhere and generally look like he's trying to blend in.

what questions? You mean the one I asked you? You mean the I asked before I got busy and couldnt post? you mean that fucking question?

That's a whole lotta bluster for a post that didn't really deserve it. No one knew that you were busy until you said it here. We all just saw the phenotype that Cakez encapsulates here. I feel like you're trying to quell Cakez by barking at him so he won't keep pushing you.

Will compare Cakez and ika and offer my opinion on the lynch in next post.

[Lokiben]

In post 464, Some Random Mafia Player wrote:
VOTE: ika

im fine with pressuring this slot.


Was completely absent during the Cakez push, and then pops in just to drop this.

I had nothing to comment at that point, although I probably should have said something tbh.

and the other post you addressed that was supposedly by me wasent actually from me...

Ah, shoot. It was from plain farmer. Must've deleted the wrong section of a quote tree.

[Lokiben]

Slept peacefully. Will have meaningful post later.

[Lokiben]

I've been consistently scumreading Ika for days now Camn, don't act like I just pulled the read out of nowhere.
Loki where's the stuff comparing ika and I you said was coming?

Voila. For the record, I only meant to compare the two of you as to whom would be a better lynch. The impressions the two of you have left on me are very contrasting.

Cakez, I know to be a very logically minded scum hunter, rather than analytically minded. His thought process is usually based upon whether or not a player is meeting the status quo of what is considered a townie reaction to any given situation. Most of the behavior that Elyse is attacking falls into that category. That being said, I did feel like he used it a bit too much as a crutch rather than a guideline yesterday that allowed him to be passive. He pointed out plenty scummy things, but he never really pushed any scumreads. There was the SRMP read, which he retracted, the tictac read that he only provided upon being asked, and the CKD and ika scumreads never really blossomed until the wagon on Cakez began to build up. I'd expect him to be a bit more vocal as town, and I'm speaking from experience. I'd mild scumread him if it weren't for his brushes with Elyse, and if it weren't true that I've seen him play has scum much more savvily. I'm leaving him as a null, because his ISO is telling me one thing, and my gut is telling me another.

As for ika, bah. I was just about to comment that I thought Elyse's vote on him was a little preemptive, given that he had just replaced in and hadn't done much other than lurk. Of course, that went out the window pretty fast when he opened his mouth. I think his lynch was justified, and I don't think the wagon is worth analyzing.

Nothing Elyse has done since my wall as changed my mind on her. Once again, she brushed off my charges without bothering to defend herself to me, even after I once again prompted her to. However, the general reaction by the town to my read on her definitely made me doubt myself, as is the Cakez push. I think that a Cakez lynch today would go a long way towards helping me make up my mind. I strongly believe this to be TvS.

Slept peacefully. Will have meaningful post later.

It's your scumday too?!?!?

That's four people I know.

Cheers!

Spoiler: spoiler'd

I began by clicking on the link to ika's threads in his profile to find games he was in.

You didn't include machina mafia, minis 1737 or 1734 (first 3 marked completed games on Ikas history. Possible some of those were only recently marked completed, but I doubt all of them were.)

There were a lot of threads that weren't game threads, so I changed the filter so that it organized posts by forum. However, I couldn't sort by date with this filter,

Blitz games come up first, but ok. I would have discarded those, if I was attempting what you say you tried.
You didn't include White Flag Mafia[TM2015](first actual game that comes up).. lots of threads that aren't main game threads come up first, I would have abandoned this approach too.
However it does seem to be sub-sorting by date by default. Weird that is your gripe with it.

and I was more interested in recent games, so I instead just looked in the game forums themselves for games ika was in.

But you apparently didn't look at completed games subforum of little italy.(didn't include minis 1707,1734,1737)
Which forums did you check? I'm trying to re-create your experience here, to see if it makes sense. As much detail as you can give will be useful.

Those are the games I found, and he seems to disproportionately prefer Opens. "Mini 1758" is apparently a malapropism for the Mini I found, I can't remember which.

Malaprotism does not sufficiently explain the inclusion of this game to me, since "1758" isn't a word.
I will confirm that the games you listed as having town-Ika did, and ones you listed as having a scum-Ika did.

I really hope you're going somewhere with this because right now this is a pointless topic for a back-and-forth. ika is dead. It shouldn't matter unless you're extracting the pieces for a scumread on farmer out of this somehow. Which isn't going to happen.

There are a couple more things I wanted to cover, but will have to be shelved for later.

[Lokiben]

okay catching up, will post as I read.

at the end of yesterday, didnt like Uptoolate, Loki, SCakes. Had a hard read on SCakes as scum, and the counter wagon off of Cakes onto ika by Elyse (also tictac vote) looked horrible. much worse now we know ika is town. Also had open question to Loki that did not get answered and I guess is moot now.

I still mean to respond to this.

[Lokiben]

Post tomorrow, again.

[Lokiben]

Catching up.

[Lokiben]

Interesting response. "it is not my responsibility" It has nothing to do with responsibility and everything to do with motivation. You clearly were not motivated is discover scum. Either you were not concerned with my motivation for the vote or what I saw that I thought deserved a vote. This is noted.

"whole lot of bluster" HA. thats my bag baby. I didnt get this title for making tea a cookies. I see something that is complete and utter bullshit and I call it like I see it.

finally, looking forward to your Cake and ika comparison. I havent looked yet, but if I had money I would bet that at the end of ika will get the vote.

To return to this, because you want an answer and I want to respond, you should have known my default assumption when a vote has been cast is that all of the reason for that vote has already been given. There's no real reason to not explain a vote as town. And you're still dodging explaining why the vote was naked in the first place. Also, I didn't happen to inspire your new signature here, did I?

And bluster doesn't mean calling something like you see it. Hilariously enough, this is what I got from Google:

bluster (/ˈbləstər/)- talk in a loud, aggressive, or indignant way with little effect

Moving on,

Elyse, quick question. is RC town?

Yes

Given all the shit that followed this post about curious crumbing something or other, why did you indulge him here, Elyse?

Thank you SRMP.

Cowbells... I thought we were gonna be a power town voting bloc? What happen?
In re: CKD.. He certainly seems more present this day. I'm not sure he is really pinging my scumdar, though... Which, despite my lies last game is actually pretty decent. So I think town on his slot.

Cakez is scum. I am really trying to look at my self and see if I am confbiasing him... But I just see scumotivation in every second of him.
Farmer as his partner? Maybe?
And then there is the enigma of tictac. He is just so hard-analytical...which I think, for ME, is too much work for scum. But then objectively I think how easy to fake, right?

But that is really my scum group.
Cakez. Farmer. Tictac.

Can you please be a little less abstract when you give your reasons for these reads? It just makes it easier for me to follow your logic and judge for myself whether or not you've brought up any valid points.

Ok, I don't think the case against ckd is really all that concrete, and what really catches my eye is that it's RC and camn pushing it. I had a moderate scumread on RC after reading over last night, and it was something I meant to get to in my last wall but didn't have the time for, like the question ckd sent my way. And considering what's unfolded since then, I think I'm going to put it off to the next wall again to reevalute, but I don't think it'll turn out much different.

you publicly outed two people whom you believed to be masons.

that's beyond unacceptable if you are town so I'm assuming that you are scum because I am not of the opinion that you are a stupid shit.

maybe I'm wrong.

Why would you even dig into those crumbs?
Went back and looked at the posts and I think I get it now.

I can answer this one. ckd has not used it to explain himself so it's not a valid explanation if he's town, but I think this relates enough to the fundamentals of the game to be relevant regardless of the situation. Something Rock told me once and that I agree with is that pointing out town crumbing is not always a bad move. The logic being, scum could pick up on the crumb while town wouldn't, and that would be bad. So, if a crumb is obvious enough, it's always best for the town to point it out, and level the playing field so the protectives could get on the crumber's back.

Besides, I think that the fact that the crumbs, and the crumb digging, went over literally everyone's head except RC's in RC and camn's theory is evidence enough that it was no harm, no foul on ckd's part. It wasn't until he claimed that he recognized the softing and that RC and Elyse were Masons did I feel suspicion may have been warranted, and even then I don't think it's a clean-cut scum move.

and now CKD is trying to make sure EVERYONE IN THIS GAME understands that me and Elyse are masons together.

Like I can't imagine how low my opinion of you would be if you were town here.

well now I feelings are hurt....I am being sort of serious here.

you do see where I asked you stop crumbing right? my problem now, is I get angry easily. it is now a principle thing. if I knew you were a fucking mason as scum, why the fuck WOULD I BRING IT UP HERE? you are not thinking it out. I asked you to stop and confirmed my guess with Elyse, so I knew to leave it alone. YOU are the fucking one to bring it back up.

To play devil's advocate, that's some fucking awful AtE.

Separately, I know that being quick to get irritated is a general town tell, but it's also a really meta-based thing, and I'm not familiar with any metas so I don't think I should be the one to read ckd for it.

i thought you didnt understand what I did (I guess you still dont), I tried to explain it.

i was getting frustrated.

It is one thing when someone who is scum is attacking you. it is another when someone who you think is town is attacking you. I tried to explain it without saying anything. but you just kept at it. I was like "why is he not getting it?"...."I am town and I know he is town, why wont he just go back a read what I said when I said it". I got more and more angry.

fuck

yeah, I guess you are ultimately right.

I should have just taken to vote and not said anything. I guess it was the principle of the vote...

ugh.

whatever.

Guess I am mostly embarrassed and tried to save face(?). I am town, but I get it at this point....policy...

If there's one post that ultimately changes my mind, it might be this one. He admits that what he did wasn't good for the town, and all he can say for himself is "Aww, shucks."

Why Zulfy? He's still sitting in my null reads.

He's not acknowledging ckd or what's happening. Reads to me as scum unsure of what to do and scared of being perceived the wrong way

I mean, he wasn't very eloquent or elaborative, but he definitely acknowledged it:

Looks like another shit wagon to me.

Vote Elyse. Shes no eidolon

I think he's at least a little sure of what he wants to do. This makes no sense. and I don't like it.

I am the tracker. No one seemed to question why I didn't hammer Scakes today when I was so hot on lynching him yesterday. I tracked him last night and he did nothing.

I will say that this is a bad choice of a target, if you are being honest here.
Chances of Cakes being chosen to make a kill, were pretty much nil if he is mafia.

I forgot Cakes claimed VT.
So. Makes sense as fakeclaimed target, doesn't make sense as actual target.
I'm no longer opposed to karma lynch.

camns angle to it is still nonsense thou.

Still opposed to short day, so don't expect a hammer any time soon.

I'll second the means if not the ends here, I guess. Can't mafia roles visit without making the kill, though?

Well he can't be the cop because I'm the cop.

:\

OH.

Oh.

I'm really fucking glad I put off my evaluation of you. So are you claiming to have visited ckd?

lokiben:
Still looks clearly towny to me, but if cakes and Elyse are both town then loki is probably scum for "I strongly believe this to be TvS"
I did dislike him telling me what I can and can't find relevant in this game, but I have been told similar things by townies before.
town for now.

If you can find some way to turn that bit about farmer relevant, I'd be pleasantly surprised. Mostly surprised. Also, why didn't you hop on Elyse for going after ika with the same confidence? On the off chance that I'm wrong and it's TvT, an FoS for pushing preparing to push for my lynch while similarly ignoring Elyse, among other things which I plan to bring up in my scumread of you this weekend.

[Lokiben]

@tictac

Oh, I see, you were defending yourself, not scumreading farmer. I think.

[Lokiben]

Wait, on second thought, RC's claim was totally unnecessary, what the hell?

[Lokiben]

If you can find some way to turn that bit about farmer relevant, I'd be pleasantly surprised. Mostly surprised.

I see you didn't read 864.

~snip~

@tictac

Oh, I see, you were defending yourself, not scumreading farmer. I think.

What are you talking about here?

I was talking about 864. I really never bothered to verify the claims you and farmer were making off of ika's meta using other games, so I assumed you were just nitpicking farmer's case to fluff up the thread. Somehow in the moment I forgot that it was ika's ISO, and not yours.

[Lokiben]

I was hesitant about a ckd lynch before, but RC's claim changes that. We have one confirmed scum between the two of them, so we can lynch one, and then the other tomorrow if need be. I feel that the same applies for Cakez and Elyse, but that route is slightly more fallible.

[Lokiben]

How does RCs claim change anything?
It's not even real.

What?

[Lokiben]

Why does everyone love to hammer when I'm not around? :/

Like plain farmer, I used the night to search for associations between camn and other suspects, and like plain farmer, I am very much convicted in what I found.

[clickbait]You will

never

believe who I'm scumreading right now![/clickbait]

I dropped the Elyse talk for the most part yesterday, because the town didn't seem to think it had any merit. I disagreed, but I dropped it because mother knows best, I guess. Camn's flip left the door open for a lot more investigating, though. This should definitely change a few minds.

VOTE: SirCakez

I didn't know you were in this game...

If Lokiben is scum, SirCakez isn't.

I'm too tired to squirm.
I'm on the night shift till Monday.
Maybe next week I can squirm?

PS..Hi CKD. I haven't seen you in a million years! Elyse, too.

Hey!

VOTE: Lokiben

if he flips scum we get conftown

Good to see some of you again, RC always lights up any game he's in, ckd is pretty cool and I expect big things now that he has a computer.

First time Elyse mentions camn. At first, it seems innocent enough. But Elyse reinforces her vote on me for not being able to be on a scum team with Cakez since I wasn't initially aware of his presence, while at the same time establishing that she hasn't interacted with camn "in a million years". Therefore, the assumption (by Elyse's own logic that she establishes on Day 1) would be that if camn is scum, she (Elyse) couldn't be. The fact that these two things happened in the same post makes for very easy juxtaposition.

Times when Elyse reads camn:

Hey Elyse, promise me that you're town.

I promise.

@acryon
I'm dropping this line of inquiry.

Camn's posts do seem off. It's like she's trying to be lighthearted, but it comes off forced and awkward, like Lokiben's entrance.

I still hate all of SirCakez's posts though and I implore people to look at his ISO.

Oh damn.

I don't want to lynch camn yet. I like her.

VOTE: camn

I don't like that claim.

This is it. The third post came when camn's lynch was all but inevitable. Elyse was one of the last on that wagon. The second one came right as the momentum was beginning to shift from cdk to camn. It looks like a clumsy attempt to keep the wagon on cdk, whose lynch looked pretty certain at that point. It's especially clumsy because before that post, Elyse had only mentioned camn once, and it was an FoS. She FoSs camn and then lets it drop quietly (more on that later), and then town reads camn out of the blue, right as the town goes, "Hey, maybe camn wouldn't be such a bad lynch." Then, when camn's about to die, Elyse goes, "Yep, this seems about right."

And as for why the first of those three posts holds so much significance to me, Elyse even says in the damn quote that she's FoSing camn for the same reason that she was FoSing me. Except she only pursues one of those FoSs, doesn't she? Only one of those two FoSs for identical reasons culminates in:

@lokiben

I still think you're scum...I think you're misunderstanding me. Your vote was scummy, but not in a strategic way.

I know I said that I believed Elyse and Cakez to be TvS, and I stand by that. Yesterday's flip has helped me identify the T and the S. Cakez has been scummy, but I don't think that Elyse would keep a bus up for so long on one teammate, while completely disregarding another.

VOTE: Elyse

[Lokiben]

SRMP would be my preferred backup lynch, not Cakez. I completely forgot that they were in this game until farmer's post. It's worth noting that Elyse never once gave a read on SRMP, but attacked Zulfy for lurking.

[Lokiben]

I am curious Loki , do you know what a mason is?

I already know your name, curious.

I have never played with masons before, but I know what they do. Elyse and RC never acknowledged your mason theory directly, just attacked you for presenting it, so I assumed they were not. If Elyse really is a mason, she should claim so now.

[Lokiben]

Then I'd like to lynch Cakez.

[Lokiben]

UNVOTE:

[Lokiben]

Elyse, can you tell us how many masons there are? I don't know if this is a fair question to ask, having never played with masons before, but I think it'd be a disaster for you to die, and then a third mason to claim later to have no one able to confirm them, or to leave the door open for scum to claim to be mason once you die.

If Elyse is confirmed town, that does change my perspective on a few people, given that a lot of my reservations were due to her reads on them. Zulfy is the first one that comes to mind.

Where is everyone?
Well.. I got a late start, too.
Reads- then I'm off to work.

1. Zulfy
4. Elyse
5. UpTooLate
11. Lokiben

ProbTown

6. Curiouskarmadog

confscum

12. SirCakez

Likely Scum

7. tictac

Probscum... but I am waffling.

8. RadiantCowbells

Likely probtown, but gambiting scum is not impossible. But I think Town

13. a plain farmer
10. Some Random Mafia Player

One scum in these two, given RC and Tictac both town.

---------

Lets see a CKD lynch. I hate long days when we have obvscum staring at us.

I've been staring at this post and trying to determine how much to read into it. Is anyone a little nervous that all of camn's top scumreads are our top scumreads today, with one noticeable exception? Her reasoning for townreading Zulfy back on Day 1 was pretty weak:

-snip-

I like his entry into the game actually. I don't mind the light hearted talk about chaining lynches... I think maybe I haven't caught up with the site meta yet... But to me if its too obvious, its not as scummy. He really has disappeared this last couple days though, which I want keep an eye on. Not sure..probably not tictacs partner.

Cakez, farmer, tictac, and SRMP are all null reads. I know that bussing is a thing, but unless camn was expecting to be lynched, which I doubt she was by this point, I don't see why she would exert all her influence in drawing suspicion towards all her allies.

VOTE: Zulfy

[Lokiben]

How the fuck is SirCakez a nullread, Loki?

And no I'm not telling you how many masons there are. You're scummy as fuck for suggesting that.

RC suspected you, SirCakez, and a plain farmer most of all. He detailed it in our private topic. I was hesitant on you but now I think he might've been right.

A) SirCakez is not a null read of mine. I was referring to camn's reads.

B) Why and why? The scum lose claim space, and the other mason(s) could confirm themselves if they ever needed to reveal in a pinch. I made it clear that there could be an angle I'm missing due to inexperience, and I don't appreciate you leapfrogging that to arrive at a scumread.

I'm frankly exasperated that you're town. Maybe if you had responded to my reads on you seriously instead of condescendingly brushing them off as if they weren't valid, I wouldn't have wasted so much of my breath.

[Lokiben]

How have I not made my stance on Cakez clear already?!?!?

As for Day 1, I'm just going to shelve it for after the game. Just know that I am judging you.

[Lokiben]

How have I not made my stance on Cakez clear already?!?!?

where did you state you position on Scakes?

and while you are at it, your position on tictac?

...

I've been consistently scumreading Ika for days now Camn, don't act like I just pulled the read out of nowhere.
Loki where's the stuff comparing ika and I you said was coming?

Voila. For the record, I only meant to compare the two of you as to whom would be a better lynch. The impressions the two of you have left on me are very contrasting.

Cakez, I know to be a very logically minded scum hunter, rather than analytically minded. His thought process is usually based upon whether or not a player is meeting the status quo of what is considered a townie reaction to any given situation. Most of the behavior that Elyse is attacking falls into that category. That being said, I did feel like he used it a bit too much as a crutch rather than a guideline yesterday that allowed him to be passive. He pointed out plenty scummy things, but he never really pushed any scumreads. There was the SRMP read, which he retracted, the tictac read that he only provided upon being asked, and the CKD and ika scumreads never really blossomed until the wagon on Cakez began to build up. I'd expect him to be a bit more vocal as town, and I'm speaking from experience. I'd mild scumread him if it weren't for his brushes with Elyse, and if it weren't true that I've seen him play has scum much more savvily. I'm leaving him as a null, because his ISO is telling me one thing, and my gut is telling me another.

I think that a Cakez lynch today would go a long way towards helping me make up my mind. I strongly believe this to be TvS.

I know I said that I believed Elyse and Cakez to be TvS, and I stand by that. Yesterday's flip has helped me identify the T and the S. Cakez has been scummy, but I don't think that Elyse would keep a bus up for so long on one teammate, while completely disregarding another.

Then I'd like to lynch Cakez.

And I will have to get to tictac tomorrow.

[Lokiben]

How have I not made my stance on Cakez clear already?!?!?

As for Day 1, I'm just going to shelve it for after the game. Just know that I am judging you.

You didn't mention him today despite him being the leading wagon, which brings me to my next question:

Why aren't you voting Cakez?

Also I am judging you for not being able to read properly.

...

I know I said that I believed Elyse and Cakez to be TvS, and I stand by that. Yesterday's flip has helped me identify the T and the S. Cakez has been scummy, but I don't think that Elyse would keep a bus up for so long on one teammate, while completely disregarding another.

Then I'd like to lynch Cakez.

And I'm not voting him because his lynch is a all but a forgone conclusion. Votes are pointless until we decide to end the day. I'm leaving mine where it is to impose pressure.

I scumread tictac for a dumb misread on my part yesterday, and haven't really given him much thought otherwise. His presence up until camn's lynch mostly revolved around scumreading camn, which obviously means he's town or a dedicated busser, and I don't think a dedicated busser would suddenly redirect their attention to ckd right as the wagon on their bus buddy was taking shape. He may have dropped a new scumlean on ckd, but he still read camn as stronger scum in the same post. I don't think that point, along with the lack of a vote, is very valid. tictac made his stance crystal clear.

The acryon angle gave me pause. I guess I'll +1 that. tictac was his only scumread; it's true.

[Lokiben]

I meant to add, did RC ever give any reasons for scumread me, Elyse? Because he didn't in the thread. -_-

[Lokiben]

I meant to add, did RC ever give any reasons for scumread me, Elyse? Because he didn't in the thread. -_-

He said that your case on me was storytelling instead of scumhunting and you pointed out scummy things camn did but never followed up.

I'm not sure what he means by storytelling, but as for camn, there were always bigger fish to fry. *shrug*

[Lokiben]

Sure.

[Lokiben]

About my voting:

I decided today that I would experiment with using my votes for pressure, since I haven't cast a single vote outside of RVS before today. I would have voted for ika and camn if I had been around for the lynches.

So I cast votes on people I wanted to talk, and grew bored of it quickly. I can just use my words. I forgot my vote was still on Zulfy until now.

UNVOTE:

Anyhoo, I said explicitly that I'd prefer to lynch Cakez today, so I don't see how there's any merit to analyzing my votes. Feel free, though.

This thread sure has gone quiet. We're just waiting on Cakez's reads and something substantive from tictac, right?

[Lokiben]

There's literally nothing to comment on when we're all just on our butts waiting for one person to say something substantive before hammering. Speaking of,

tictac is my big read right now. not sure what to think of tictac not hammering scakes. IF scakes flips scum, tictac NEEDS to be lynch tomorrow. Please make this happen if I get offed tonight.

Really tho? tictac has a valid reason for not hammering yet, nor do any of us want him to.

[Lokiben]

No, we're waiting for tictac. Maybe wherever he has to day can simulate discussion. Otherwise, we can just hammer. Regardless we have a week or so to go, so we're in no hurry.

[Lokiben]

VOTE: Zulfy

Everything I said in 1099 still applies. Will investigate tictac and SRMP later.

[Lokiben]

Curious, you have several valid, if individually unimpactful, points about tictac. There's plenty of counterexplanations that hold nearly as much weight though, from my perspective, chiefly the element of WIFOM with the acryon kill.

And I don't see him refusing to vote for camn anywhere; he just didn't. He's been harping for more discussion time more than anyone else.

So, I think you have a case. It's not enough to make me prefer him to Zulfy, though. If Zulfy is town somehow, then he's totally my pick for tomorrow, if we make it that far. Zulfy's (lack of) interactions with camn just stick out like a sore thumb to me.

so why the fuck was I blocked last night but not the night before?...hmm, maybe it was because I pushed a fucking tictac case yesterday?

Maybe I'm missing something, but what incentive would the mafia have to block someone other than you two nights ago? That's just bizarre.

I'm not really aware of the case on tictac.

If I've been told it, I've forgotten.

@Lok, you look at scum's scumleans and scumreads for scum. Or at least I do. Either way tho it's all wine, not enough for a wagon today.

That's a suspiciously stupid oversimplification.

. Also, why are you scumreading me for speaking out against your lynch?

In your history of playing this game. As scum, have you ever defended town just to get town cred. When did you actually "defend" me? How many votes did I have?

Hmm. tictac made a point about townreading Cakez too. Conveniently, he didn't show up to offer an alternative lynch (Zulfy), until Cakez was at L-1.

LOL that is what I thought. I call you out on your scum slip and you immediately vote me without even acknowledging them.

That's not true:

"Why would I fail to block you night 2?" == "If I was scum I could have suggested blocking you in scum-thread or blocked you myself if I was a roleblocker. Either way I would have had the power to cause you to be blocked. Why would I have not done that?"
I was being concise.

Ahhh, Zulfy has been pinging my gut harder, but if I'm the only one then I guess I can be convinced of a tictac lynch instead.

[Lokiben]

Loki I am talking about the ACTUAL SLIPS. He said I called him the blocker. I never said that. I said the scum team. I think he just slipped and told us he was the blocker. Go back and reread it.

I have. I think it might be confirmation bias on your part. You said scum had a blocker, and you said he was scum. It could have been an assumption on his part about your accusations. I'm open to the possibility, but I'm not convinced it was a slip.

[Lokiben]

@farmer I'm thinking Rando is town.
-155 mistakes camn with another player. I don't think this can happen if he is scum with her. I think it's a real mistake because it's consistent with his play otherwise. (@Rando Who were you thinking of there?)
- I don't think the avatar-thing would have been so big a deal if they were both scum. camn would have waited for the night and then asked him to get one. As it was she was unnecessarily drawing heat from it.

To play devil's advocate with the avatar thing, it was an incredibly weak reason for a scumread. With camn's flip, we can tell that in hindsight, it was obviously a forced read on camn's part. I think that forced reads are more likely to become apparent when the scum bus each other, rather than push on a townie, because a scum looking to scumread a townie has many more options than a scum looking to bus.

That's a suspiciously stupid oversimplification.

Not really, no

If the game worked that way, then the scum would never bus each other. And then the game wouldn't work that way. A balance is always struck, and I reckon if someone were to take a large sample of scum's scumreads, they'd discover that the true proportion of scum's reads on fellow scum would be about equal to the true proportion of a townie's reads that are scumreads.

[Lokiben]

I don't see the big deal. It's not like curious said that one of his major points was an overreaction. He just admitted to confirmation bias regarding an irrelevant side comment. It's not like he was actually going to pursue a case on tictac because tictac responds in walls. I don't think anyone is that stupid.

Again, I feel that both proposed explanations regarding acryon's death and camn's flip are plausible, but I think I do trust curious more, for another reason now. Yeah, everything tictac mentioned was a valid counterexplanation. But none of it was a straight refutation of anything that curious said. He's acting like curious's case is undeserved after his self-defense, but it really isn't, because it isn't simply enough, whether it's within his control or not. I think he should accept that he looks suspicious, and since it's mostly due to the actions of others, he shouldn't take it as an attack on character if he's town. Instead, he OMGUSes curious for continuing to apply pressure as though he had invalidated all of curious's reasoning.

Zulfy has done nothing to change my opinion of him. My vote remains.

[Lokiben]

@ Loki

but I think I do trust curious more,

for another reason now.

Should I have known from the context what this other reason is?

Also, who is your #2 scumread?

I took a rather roundabout way of explaining it in that post, but it was the OMGUS. The spat between curious and tictac dissolved pretty quickly into OMGUSing the other person because the person OMGUSed you, and I think the cycle began with tictac, although curious isn't completely devoid of blame either.

tictac is my #2. Zulfy is my #1.

However, I agree with farmer, not tictac, about curious's rage. It was definitely uncalled for, and completely out of the blue. Literally one post by Zulfy in which he reiterated the 'Gross' post, and one post by me that was in no way antagonizing, came in between composed-and-collected curious, and ready-to-rage-quit curious. It felt faked.

So I don't feel confident in either a ckd or tictac lynch today.

[Lokiben]

Hi pisskop. Thanks for coming in this late into a game. I don't know how you like to read, but let me know if I can be of help in getting you up to speed.


@ Loki

Thanks. Regarding Zulfy, I'm interested in how you reconcile your read on him with the following two points:

1) He hammered Camn at a time when it seemed (to me, at least) that her wagon would soon disband in favor of SirCakez.

2) He came into Day 3 with a vote on Elyse. The argument for townreading him here is that the scumteam probably knew RC and Elyse were masons based on their kill that night, so scum Zulfy wouldn't have voted someone the town would believe to be conftown.

1) I never got the sense that the camn wagon was disbanding at all.
2) I didn't think about that and I don't know. I guess I'll have to reconsider.

[Lokiben]

I have SATs around the corner, so you won't hear a lot from me in the front half of this upcoming week.

[Lokiben]

SRMP as a Mason actually makes sense to me. I'll have to elaborate another time, but just look at their interactions.

[Lokiben]

You rang?

[Lokiben]

I think I've found the trump card for proving SRMP as a mason. Having never played with masons before, I didn't realize until now that it was such a phenomenon to have three masons in a 13P game.

Elyse, can you tell us how many masons there are? I don't know if this is a fair question to ask, having never played with masons before, but I think it'd be a disaster for you to die, and then a third mason to claim later to have no one able to confirm them, or to leave the door open for scum to claim to be mason once you die.

If Elyse is confirmed town, that does change my perspective on a few people, given that a lot of my reservations were due to her reads on them. Zulfy is the first one that comes to mind.

I'm not telling you how many masons there are. You're scummy as fuck for suggesting that.

Elyse is an experienced player, and she leaves it open for debate over whether there's a third mason here. I think this is pretty damning.

Not to mention that if you sort posts by user and only look at Elyse's, RC's, and SRMP's posts, it's pretty obvious that SRMP was sheeping the other two on basically everything.

[Lokiben]

I don't fully comprehend what's going on between pisskop and SRMP but I'm pretty sure it's based upon a misunderstanding.

[Lokiben]

Prodge. SATs in 40 hours now.

Also, a preemptive warning that if this game is not over by the 21st, in three weeks, I'll be forced to replace out because I'll be without internet access in China.

[Lokiben]

You rang?

Tomorrow afternoon, it'll all be done with and this game will have my full attention again.

[Lokiben]

And now I will never have think about the SATs again.

About pisskop:
I didn't think much of UTL before either way, but, at the risk of being flamed, I don't like pisskop's entrance. I had to reread all of his posts multiple times before I understood what he was trying to say. I'm not surprised SRMP was so totally discombobulated. The personal attacks are unwarranted from anyone, I feel, but especially him given that I can completely relate to those that didn't immediately grasp the point he was trying to make about farmer. I can't help but feel that he's trying to bluster and bully us all into compliance. And despite the incredible attitude he's managed to establish, this post still stood out to me as a clumsy towncred grab:

Bet your ass im town munchkin

I don't want to read into any of this too heavily, since this strikes me as behavior that could easily be grounded in meta, but the lack of cooperation is enough to put him down as null scum.

Separately, I understand that sheeping in itself is a scumtell, but why is sheeping masons an offense of its own? If anything, it makes more sense from a town perspective to follow the lead of someone who is confirmed.

SRMP, did you only reveal to be able to make the daffodil joke?

It's a little worrying how the energy in the thread has died down after I slowed the momentum of the pisskop wagon. I understand we're still waiting on responses.

I don't understand. Do you think this is indicative of anything?

Also, why is everyone putting so much emphasis on who hammers the vote? The significance of hammering is symbolic if anything.

I believe srmp still. Look at how he interacts with RC and Elyse.

If I make the foreward assumption that the push on CKD was real (Im leaning that way), then we movea significant portion of the game out of the lynch pool.


Im suspicious of loki. Hes been skitting around the game for a bit. I saw several frilly prodges from him

That's real life for you. Not to mention your slot has done that quite a bit more than I have.

in fact, the chances of there being a mafia roleblocker that only has 1 role it can block is extremely low.

VOTE: CKD

I still obviously know jack shit about game balance, but that seems like a fair point to me, as does farmer's bit about bussing. Can I also say how surprised I was for tictac and curious to both back off so suddenly after curious' outburst, which felt fake, as I said? I'm honestly getting a bussing vibe from the whole mess. Obviously this'd conflict with my pisskop read, and maybe my Zulfy read to some extent, but it's only a hunch at this point.

*Dives into ISO of camn and tictac*

[Lokiben]

We have a player who literally cannot be a mason sheeping the dwool off a mason group.

Well, maybe the rest of us lost our way somewhere around this post, where the fact that the sheeped were masons seemed to be critical to your point.

[Lokiben]

Separately, I understand that sheeping in itself is a scumtell, but why is sheeping masons an offense of its own? If anything, it makes more sense from a town perspective to follow the lead of someone who is confirmed.

That's not to say that your accusation isn't viable, but I think the 'mason' bit matters at least some.

[Lokiben]

Thanks for clearing that up for me, farmer.

Holy shit, I completely forgot about camn's huge post on tictac's possible buddies. If CKD is scum, then camn's bussing of him and push on tictac, are eerily similar in camn's voracity, and sense of rushing, although the latter part might just be my impression.

I could quote, but it should be pretty obvious for anyone taking a quick peek at camn's ISO. camn's case was mostly based on OMGUS, and generic unexplained reads on tictac for 'nonsense'.

VOTE: ckd

[Lokiben]

I believe that was the hammer?

[Lokiben]

VOTE: Zulfy

Am dropping my tictac/ckd bussing theory for reasons that I will explain when not brain dead, tomorrow morning most like.

[Lokiben]

have anything to do with that crap hammer?

In part

[Lokiben]

I'd like to know why me too.

I misspoke when I said I was dropping the bussing theory. I'm backing off it for now, because Zulfy's behavior yesterday was very noteworthy. He's been flipflopping a ton, so his reads aren't very consistent, but the one constant has been tictac, and even his stance on tictac wasn't very consistent. Example:

SRMP, Uptoolate, Zulfy, and farmer.


would like to hear your position on tictac...and my case on him.

Curious I like your case and will hop on that wagon if it's a thing that will happen

I'm not really aware of the case on tictac.

If I've been told it, I've forgotten.

And then there's this:

Yep only reason

So what I really mean is "That is not at all it, I am voting you for your cumulative scummy actions

Context: Zulfy votes for tictac because he disagrees with tictac over whether SRMP was acting defensively. tictac asks if that was Zulfy's only reason. Zulfy gives this reply.

He talks about cumulative scummy actions as if the rest of his case is obviously right here in front of us in the thread, so he doesn't need to elaborate. But all I can find in the thread on tictac otherwise is:

Spoiler:

no help me bus camn please.

Why are you still on that? There's no point until she can reply properly.
You aren't even voting for her.

Is the extension of RVS scummy here? Also follow your own advice.

Random lynch is random lynch

If extending RVS is scummy so is this +1

tictac

VOTE: tictac

Karma be more aggressive with your push

tictac

tictac

And today the read on tictac is suddenly gone, and replaced by two new unexplained scumreads. Nearly the rest of his ISO is self-defense, or generic fluff.

And he may have hammered camn and ckd both, but that's because he was late to the party on both of those wagons. As has already been covered, both hammers were carried out rather awkwardly. He wanted to make it clear that he had reservations about both lynches as he hammered them, which is pretty contradictory, especially since neither lynch was a done deal before the hammer. It strikes me as a knee-jerk reaction for towncred.

[Lokiben]

tictac, if it comes to that.

[Lokiben]

Sorry, Zulfy. I guess I got overconfident again.

I guess this means that:

A) The role list at this point is slightly more nuanced than we expected it to be. Since none of you claim a PR, and it's not me, I guess it'd be something on the scum's end.
B) The mafia didn't kill because...?

Whatever it was, we have the extra talk time, which is nice. Not going to hammer the NL.

From scum to town:

tictac: My biggest case against tictac is about his spat with ckd yesterday, but it has been talked to death so I'll leave it alone for now. Aside from that, something that caught my gut's attention, although it could be confirmation bias, is that while continuously hounding for a Zulfy lynch, he managed to construct a completely separate push on pisskop, as if he knew in advance it'd be necessary once the game didn't end with Zulfy's flip. I know that this sounds hypocritical coming from me, but ehh I can vouch for the authenticity of my indecisiveness. Finally, there's the fact that he showed very little enthusiasm relative to apf when the ckd wagon started, which really did emphasize his incredibly quick shift in opinion on ckd.

pisskop: I'm glad he's calmed down since his entrance and has been productive. I'm not sure if my 1598 had a role to play in the transition, and if it did, I'm not sure if it was in response to the scumread or general gripes, so I'm not sure how indicative I want to interpret it is. It could all be WIFOM, but his approach to the ckd wagon struck me as the opposite of how I would expect scum to go around dealing with a wagon a buddy: He made his reservations apparent, knowing full well the attention it'd bring to him once his buddy flipped. UTL's prior lurking does count against him some, though. He's my second pick, but there's a fair amount of disparity between him and tictac.

a plain farmer:The ckd wagon was all his doing, and I commend him for that. Not much about him honestly stood out much to me before then. It's a shame he's scumreading me. I'm honestly a little indignant that he's scumreading me for 333, though, because I was frustrated to begin with, and still am despite Elyse's flip, that the post wasn't taken seriously, and now he's suggesting that I should be to blame. All I can say in my defense is that I was definitely not expecting Elyse to be someone who definitely wasn't going to be lynched.

[Lokiben]

I'm lost.

[Lokiben]

VOTE: No lynch

[Lokiben]

I'm lost.

[Lokiben]

I'm not sure why you think it qualifies as insensible if here we are, objectively just as we would be if there had been a kill that night. I think pisskop was right when he said there was WIFOM to it, so I think that means it shouldn't be analyzed.

And why would pisskop have voted you, tictac? I would have been his pick, he said.

P-edit: If the mafia have an odd-night goon or something, does that qualify as simple?

[Lokiben]

Well, yesterday I was sure pisskop had to be a doc(I'm a VT, both of ya said you didn't cause the no-kill and a BP would have claimed)
I figure pisskop thought the same about me, and that is why he didn't want to discuss things too much.
(from my perspective Loki looked like a conf-scum, and I couldn't speak about it. I wouldn't have that info if I was a doc who protected farmer, so it would have VT-outed me)

Looks like it has to be a no-kill by scum.
Loki was scumreading me hard at the end of day 5. All scum!farmer had to do was kill pisskop, and he would have very likely won.
By same token scum!loki could have killed farmer and either me or pisskop would have very likely voted for the other.

So, no it doesn't make sense at all.
That said out of you two farmer is the one I'd more expect sensible play from, so I currently think it implicates Loki.

tictac, if you could put the kill out of mind, who would be your top scumread? I find it oddly convenient (or decidedly inconvenient, really) that your entire analysis is based upon the kill.

[Lokiben]

Thanks for your answers. Here's where I am: I think I'll be voting Loki today.

Whichever of you is scum, you did a damn good job. I went over each of your ISOs and interactions, and whenever I'd be just at the tipping point to be convinced one of you were scum, I'd see something that looked like it was coming from a town perspective and it would put me back in the middle.

The tiebreaker here is that Elyse, RC, pisskop, SirCakez, and Zulfy were reading Loki as scummier than tictac prior to their respective exits from the game (although Zulfy did waffle a bit towards tictac). I'm not sure I can ignore my own gut read from a few days prior

and

go against the general will of the departed townies.

So I'm not really interested in debating this. I wont vote in this post just in case there is some incredible thing I haven't caught, but I do expect to vote Loki in my next post.

Elyse's scumread on me was based upon a misunderstanding related to my inquiry about the number of masons. Cakez and pisskop emphasized that tictac was only a hair above me. RC scumread tictac since Day 1, tried to lynch him, and never took it back. And Zulfy actually trusted tictac the least when he was lynched, if you reread his final posts.

And you left out acryon and SRMP, both of whom strongly scumread tictac by the time of their departure.

I'm not sure why you think it qualifies as insensible if here we are, objectively just as we would be if there had been a kill that night. I think pisskop was right when he said there was WIFOM to it, so I think that means it shouldn't be analyzed.

What kind of WIFOM do you see in it?

I mean, here you are, poking at it already. I think you reached a little when you decided that the skipped kill implicated me, because as I said, the scum gained nothing objectively from that move, so their angle could only have been to use the lack of kill to draw attention to someone.

And why would pisskop have voted you, tictac? I would have been his pick, he said.

Huh. I think ye'r right. He said you were his backup choice and spoke of binary choice between us. I read that as him scumreading me more, but I think his primary was farmer in 1667.
Why are you arguing in favour of scum!Loki thou?

The point I'm trying to make is that your reasoning for pisskop's death doesn't hold. And it's still 100% wine anyway.

P-edit: If the mafia have an odd-night goon or something, does that qualify as simple?

No. I don't think that would qualify as normal even.

I checked the wiki; it's normal.

tictac, if you could put the kill out of mind, who would be your top scumread? I find it oddly convenient (or decidedly inconvenient, really) that your entire analysis is based upon the kill.

Farmer asked about the no-kill, and those were my thoughts. It's not intended to be a complete analysis.
If I exclude that I would still be scumreading you.from 1630. (Getting on board CKD only when it was clear he was going to get lynched, and preparing to lynch me in the same post. It sounds like you were trying to do damage-control.I think a townie would have been more focused on the matter at hand.)
Also,yer voting history:

Spoiler: votes

(10)(

Cakez

)(

Lokiben

)
(56)(

CKD

)(

Lokiben

)
(124)(---)(Lokiben)
(298)(

Elyse

)(

Lokiben

)
DAY END:1
DAY END:2
(1065)(

Elyse

)(

Lokiben

)
(1087)(---)(Lokiben)
(1099)(

Zulfy

)(

Lokiben

)
(1199)(---)(Lokiben)
DAY END:3
(1247)(

Zulfy

)(

Lokiben

)
(1630)(

CKD

)(farmer,

Rando

,

Lokiben

)
DAY END:4
(1643)(

Zulfy

)(

Lokiben

)
DAY END:5

The CKD vote was the first time ya voted with anyone at all, which tells me that yer motivation for that was different. I still need to doublecheck that, cause I remember getting a different result before(you agreeing with me on zulf)

That said, I haven't decided on a vote yet. I wanna do wagon analysis and take a closer look at farmers CKD push, it's gonna take a while.

Also, at the time of 1630, tictac, it was not at all clear that ckd was going to be lynched. The votes were tied, and it was looking like apf was going to be lynched to me. As for my vote history, ckd was the first lynch that I was actually online to vote on. What matter at hand are you referring to?

[Lokiben]

I'm going to go ahead and compile all my everything on tictac for you, apf.

[Lokiben]

I guess we've lost already. I can't vote for tictac because he's obviously not going to vote for himself, so I guess my hail mary is

VOTE: a plain farmer

[Lokiben]

Since 36 minutes ago? Just general exasperation and frustration. I'd rather convince farmer to vote you, but he's unwilling to engage me so bah. I guess I should be investigating him anyway in case my conviction in your flip is hurt by confirmation bias.

[Lokiben]

...I wasn't thinking. Oh. OH.

[Lokiben]

Yeah, I've never been in a situation like this before. That was stupid for me. Reevaluating.

[Lokiben]

So I've got some serious case building and soul searching to do, and school work to boot. Tomorrow, I will plead my case.

[Lokiben]

I'm sorry to have to do this, but I'm still swamped, and will likely be tomorrow too. Nothing screamed scum!apf to me until he was confirmed just now, so I plan to do some serious research to support my case. Luckily, we're not pressed for time.

In the meantime, here are two games of mine:

This was my most recent game. It began after this game, and ended last week. I was a Citizen (VT). Cakez was the solo winner of this game, by the way.

This was my first ever game, and only complete game as scum. I was a Consort (Mafia Roleblocker). I've been mafia two other times. I replaced out early due to out-of-game issues in one, and replaced into the other about 24 hours before being endgamed.

ISOs can be found in the OPs. As I'm sure you'll notice, ToS has an incredibly different and, dare I say, less sophisticated, meta. Roles and abilities garner much more attention than here, and objective reasoning less so, but only to a certain extent. If you want to fully understand what is happening at all times in these games, here is a compilation of all thirty-something roles that can appear in a given game.

[Lokiben]

Ok.


Exhibit A: farmer's interactions with camn

and Exhibit B: farmer's self meta-ing

Some reads:

A reads-list in response to me pointing out that your play is different from 1380, where your early play was list heavy.
Looks more like you are correcting your play to match the earlier game, than an attempt to contribute.

I just wanted to make my opinions known. Also, I'll preemptively let everyone know that I'm an indecisive person, so changes in my reads should be considered null tells.

Camn seems like a townie.

Why?

I like her votes.

I'll preemptively let everyone know that I'm an indecisive person, so changes in my reads should be considered null tells.

Huh.

Frankly, the first statement is pingy in its own right ("I just want to let everyone know in advance that I'm town in case I do something scummy."), but it's worse in context. apf's explanation for scumreading camn is barely an explanation. He's asked why he likes camn, and he says he likes her votes, as if that settles it. He doesn't explain why he likes the votes, which was obviously what you were digging for, tictac, when you posed him that question.

Then almost immediately, camn shoves him away for the same post in which he townreads camn. I propose apf was buddying with camn, and maybe did it a bit too blatantly or clumsily for camn's liking, and she subtly rejected him in that post.

@ camn

I'll preemptively let everyone know that I'm an indecisive person, so changes in my reads should be considered null tells.

Huh.

I said that in hopes to minimize time wasted on town-on-town accusations.

"I said that so people wouldn't waste time scumreading me when I'm town."

Please don't lynch camn. This is the scummiest wagon of the game so far.

And here's where I lept in front of her wagon. Scum would not say this. Scum would not expend any of their political capital in this thread on such a minimalistic plea. Scum would either stay silent, or maybe try to build up a case in camn's favor.

Self-meta, again. This time, it's a terrible abuse of WIFOM. "I did something that scum wouldn't want to do because it's scummy." I guess he'd argue that he meant to say that his presented opinions were independent of his alignment, because scum would actually care about how their opinions reflected on them, but the confidence with which he likes to assert that he is town is overdone.

On the prospect of Zulfy scum, my gut tells me that camn would be more inclined to put her partners in the scum or null section of her reads.

Funny, because that's where apf and ckd both were.

Exhibit C: farmer waffling on ckd

apf on ckd through the ages:

Spoiler:

Some reads:

CKD seems like a townie.

And to answer your question on CKD, he worries me a little bit, but my instinct is to punt on the issue of lurkers and come back to it D2.

UNVOTE:

Welp, we have two weeks until the deadline. I say we go for a picnic.

And yes I am for lynching CKD. I thought he might have been a townie who made a blunder, but I have a hard time imagining a townie defending himself from these allegations by implying that RC's vote for him left him no recourse.

I'm not as confident in my CKD scumread as I was last night. Prior to yesterday's outbreak, there's nothing in his ISO that pings my scumdar. And the more I think of his behavior, the less it becomes a question of "why would town do this" as opposed to "why would someone of any alignment do this?". His initial rolefishing and reaction to being voted is still scummy, but I'm OK with not lynching him today.

CKD - scum-leaning - My position is unchanged from 818. I still don't like the initial rolefishing and the reaction to his vote, but he hasn't done anything else scummy. He hasn't been particularly townie either, though. I'd say he's 3rd scummiest in this game right now after SirCakez and UTL.

After this, apf never reads ckd directly for a while, but creates plenty of hypothetical scenarios around ckd tracking SirCakez, or being an obvious NK target, implying he believes ckd's claim. Then:

I actually find CKD's AtE hard to swallow. He's not actually under that much pressure. He seems to be getting worked up at only having had a little bit of push-back from the town against his tictac case. The deadline is still a while off. I'd actually characterize this town as open-minded and thoughtful by the standards of most of the other games I've seen. All this is to say that, as a supposed veteran, CKD should probably have seen worse, and his reaction is disproportionate to what's actually happened.

And yes, it is scummy.

Right now both pisskop and CKD are looking like good votes.

So apf has been all over the place with ckd throughout the game, always finding some new angle that overrides everything prior. Again, I find his earlier assertion that waffling is something that he does as town a hard sell. My interpretation is that apf figured the best way to avoid implication by association was neither to explicitly bus nor buddy ckd.

Miscelaneous:

It's a little worrying how the energy in the thread has died down after I slowed the momentum of the pisskop wagon. I understand we're still waiting on responses.

This post did feel off to me at the time, and when I questioned apf about it, his response didn't satisfy me. This feels like a towncred grab. The energy of the thread is an abstract concept that he avoids tying down to any player in particular but instead leaves as a general label for the atmosphere of the thread so he doesn't have to justify reading a specific player for it.

apf is good. His scumplay towards the end reminds me of the player that I idolize the most (someone from another forum), in that he really will stop at nothing to build his own towncred in MYLO. There was the ckd lynch, and there was the hesitance he demonstrated today with voting you, tictac. You could argue that it would have been easier for him to pile on my one man wagon of you, but that would have been riskier, since you could have plead your case and changed my mind. The fact is that apf is in no hurry to force a mislynch, because he knows that as long as he's being townread, there's no way he can lose. So what he's done, rather than gamble by rushing a lynch, is take his sweet time and ensure his longterm survival, since that's all he needs to win for his entire faction.

[Lokiben]

The DC metro is completely shut down, and my school has cancelled as a result. It's a huge blessing and I'll be responding shortly.

[Lokiben]

Frankly, the first statement is pingy in its own right ("I just want to let everyone know in advance that I'm town in case I do something scummy."),

Pre-emptive defense is a standard scumtell, but it's not unusual for relatively new players to do it as town.
It's an example of the kind of low-hanging fruit scum likes to go for to build their scumreads.

but it's worse in context. apf's explanation for scumreading camn is barely an explanation. He's asked why he likes camn, and he says he likes her votes, as if that settles it. He doesn't explain why he likes the votes, which was obviously what you were digging for, tictac, when you posed him that question.

I think we have established that town isn't always better at answering questions exhaustively than scum. Remember Elyse?

I still don't see a town motivation behind this post or anything Elyse did.

Then almost immediately, camn shoves him away for the same post in which he townreads camn. I propose apf was buddying with camn, and maybe did it a bit too blatantly or clumsily for camn's liking, and she subtly rejected him in that post.

Why would scum buddy a partner? The purpose of buddying is to make the other person like you and not vote for you.

Buddying is the wrong word. Is there a common term for the opposite of bussing? Supporting? That's what he must have been doing, and camn must not have liked it. camn and ckd already demonstrated a pattern of bussing scum, and bussing hard. farmer fits into the equation very well.

Please don't lynch camn. This is the scummiest wagon of the game so far.

And here's where I lept in front of her wagon. Scum would not say this. Scum would not expend any of their political capital in this thread on such a minimalistic plea. Scum would either stay silent, or maybe try to build up a case in camn's favor.

Self-meta, again.

Meh. I don't think it's self-meta. It's an general observation about the things scum is likely to do, not describing his own playstyle specifically.

This time, it's a terrible abuse of WIFOM. "I did something that scum wouldn't want to do because it's scummy." I guess he'd argue that he meant to say that his presented opinions were independent of his alignment, because scum would actually care about how their opinions reflected on them, but the confidence with which he likes to assert that he is town is overdone.

If farmer is town he is 100% confident he is town. It's impossible for him to be too confident of it.
I will admit that I am uncomfortable with how conscious he is of the towny things he does.

I'm not saying that he was acting overconfident in his towniness, I'm saying that his confidence was overdone, as you agree. As for that first part, he was obviously implying that the behavior was not something he would exhibit as scum, otherwise it would be irrelevant.

On the prospect of Zulfy scum, my gut tells me that camn would be more inclined to put her partners in the scum or null section of her reads.

Funny, because that's where apf and ckd both were.

What is the scum motivation in that post?

It's his beloved informed perspective.

Exhibit C: farmer waffling on ckd

apf on ckd through the ages:


So apf has been all over the place with ckd throughout the game, always finding some new angle that overrides everything prior.
Again, I find his earlier assertion that waffling is something that he does as town a hard sell.

Why? Almost everyone waffles as town.

My interpretation is that apf figured the best way to avoid implication by association was neither to explicitly bus nor buddy ckd.

Well there's no question that he did bus him, if he's scum. How did ya miss that?

Then it's probably confirmation bias showing, confirmed with his earlier assertion that it's a town tell of his. And he

Miscelaneous:

It's a little worrying how the energy in the thread has died down after I slowed the momentum of the pisskop wagon. I understand we're still waiting on responses.

This feels like a towncred grab.

It does a bit.
"feels like".. You are still talking like farmer is a

potential

scum, and I'm finding it weird.

apf is good. His scumplay towards the end reminds me of the player that I idolize the most (someone from another forum), in that he really will stop at nothing to build his own towncred in MYLO.
There was the ckd lynch,

That's valid. There was no point in CKD self-destructing like he did if no partners would gain towncred from it, and the person who gained cred was farmer.

and there was the hesitance he demonstrated today with voting you, tictac. You could argue that it would have been easier for him to pile on my one man wagon of you, but that would have been riskier, since you could have plead your case and changed my mind.

1. I kinda doubt I could have.
2. He didn't need to vote early at all. That way either one of us could have voted for the other and he just needed to hammer. He discarded the possibility of mislynching me for no good reason.

I can tell you I wasn't going to cast my vote for a good long time. It's true I was too sure thorough case could have changed my mind. I can only assume apf anticipated this.

The fact is that apf is in no hurry to force a mislynch,

He voted ya really early in the day. It's a risky play since early LYLO votes are generally considered scummy. I doubt he anticipated me townreading him for it.

because he knows that as long as he's being townread, there's no way he can lose. So what he's done, rather than gamble by rushing a lynch, is take his sweet time and ensure his longterm survival, since that's all he needs to win for his entire faction.

Wouldn't it make more sense for him to keep his options open, if he's playing long term?

I think you've answered your own question here. By placing his vote on me instead of you, he's still got the same sized target: a mislynch. But given the credit he reaped by flipping sides, voting for me was disputably the smarter choice. It's in line with the rest of his scum play of rushing nothing, and building only his own rep.

[Lokiben]

HOLD UP HOLD UP HOLD UP

I CAN CONFIRM MY INNOCENCE

TICTAC

LOOK

VOTE COUNT 4.05

pisskop (3): tictac, a plain farmer, curiouskarmadog
Zulfy (1): Lokiben
tictac (1): Zulfy
a plain farmer (1): pisskop

No vote (1): Some Random Mafia Player

With 7 players alive, it takes 4/7 votes to lynch.

For deadlines & notes, please refer to this post – post 3 !

I COULD HAVE HAMMERED PISSKOP

SCUM WOULD HAVE WON RIGHT THEN

BUT I DIDN'T

[Lokiben]

I WAS ONLINE BEFORE APF UNVOTED

DO YOU SEE THAT

HALLE FUCKING LUJAH

[Lokiben]

Wait, nope, that wasn't MYLO.

[Lokiben]

Lol kill me now. I should probably go sleep.

[Lokiben]

Subject: Mini 1758: Mafia Scum PT

I don't understand why I even need to kill tonight. I'd win with a mislynch tomorrow in mylo or lylo. And in mylo, I have a 1/4 chance of getting the noose, instead of 1/3. Town could just not lynch tomorrow, and we'd be caught in a game of chicken.

Performer, what happens in the event of a stalemate? If it's an automatic draw or scum loss after a certain period of time has elapsed with no deaths, I'll kill tomorrow night if town doesn't lynch.

I didn't realize until the next day that it was my obligation.

[Lokiben]

HOLD UP HOLD UP HOLD UP

I CAN CONFIRM MY INNOCENCE

TICTAC

LOOK

VOTE COUNT 4.05

pisskop (3): tictac, a plain farmer, curiouskarmadog
Zulfy (1): Lokiben
tictac (1): Zulfy
a plain farmer (1): pisskop

No vote (1): Some Random Mafia Player

With 7 players alive, it takes 4/7 votes to lynch.

For deadlines & notes, please refer to this post – post 3 !

I COULD HAVE HAMMERED PISSKOP

SCUM WOULD HAVE WON RIGHT THEN

BUT I DIDN'T

As stupid as this sounds, this was not fake. I was rereading the thread, stumbled upon this, and thought I had previously missed an opportunity to hammer the vote.

[Lokiben]

Oops, I meant to take out the link to the PT. I hope that's OK.

[Lokiben]

As stupid as this sounds, this was not fake. I was rereading the thread, stumbled upon this, and thought I had previously missed an opportunity to hammer the vote.

Yeah. Didn't sound fake to me.
Almost convinced me that you can't be devious enough to no kill as a strategy. Didn't think your actual reason was very likely.
It was the post where ya told me to lynch you that tipped the balance. Perspective of someone who doesn't have teammates left.

?

Oh. Oh. I didn't literally mean to kill me by lynching. I was joshing/venting because I was being dumb. Did that seriously decide the game?

[Lokiben]

No but I didn't even have the lynch in mind when I said that. It was a general exclamation for when things didn't go my way.

"I slept through my alarm; kill me now."

[Lokiben]

Having read the other PTs, a few things I want to respond to:

@Performer Dropping a wall every day or so is my usual posting style, since there's only a few hours every day in the late afternoon when I feel comfortable sitting down and drafting one up. I make brief posts from mobile sometimes, but I find it a pain to draft anything substantive. I never realized my posting style was 'not town-friendly' for the town. I also think that this site has a slightly different definition of lurking than what I'm used to. C'est la vie.

-I lost some sleep over that last kill, wondering if I made the right choice. Even with hindsight, I still don't understand why apf should have been the obvious pick. Both he and PK had voiced mild suspicion of me, and milder suspicion of tictac.

In the event I die tonight and you're in LyLo tomorrow, I'll give some thoughts on those remaining. From town to scum, I'd rank them:

pisskop
tictac
Lokiben

But I'm not too confident about this.

I don't like pisskop's hammer, and his predecessor in that slot was scummy. But pisskop hasn't given me much reason to scumread him, and I doubt players as experienced as him and CKD would, as scumpartners, put themselves together on my wagon in D4. Don't overstate these things as townreads though. Pisskop's hammer today may be scummy, but I also don't like the way Zulfy got up to L-1 in the first place.

CKD said this weird thing about tictac being sure scum if SirCakez ended up being scum, which a scumpartner might've done to try and clear him by association when Cakez flipped town. But then CKD wagoned tictac immediately at the start of D4, so I dunno. But the way their mutual scumreads on each other fizzled out on D4 pings me.

Loki has been keeping a low profile and staying off the wagons CKD and camn were on, and there's the thing I mentioned about post 333. I was in the midst of looking over him as writing this but I wanted to make sure this got out before the mod scene.

loki is my backup choice.

If its a binary descision between tictac and loki guess where Id go?

I thought I could pander to apf's suspicions of tictac for the win, but pisskop never really elaborated on why he was scumreading tictac and I didn't know how I'd approach it. Plus I was vaguely aware that PK was an established player and apf wasn't (I played in one of PK's newbie games).

God that slip

Yeah I saw it too

I didn't. What'd I do?

I feel like his push on you was more storytelling than actual scumhunting.

Felt like he put you into a box labelled scum and looked for reasons to do so rather than any genuine thought process.

RC pretty much nailed my mentality. I was just experimenting and was surprised at the success of my Elyse attack. I'm not saying it's the way I'd play, but I understand why she didn't feel the need to give a serious defense. She could confirm herself with the flick of a wrist, so she might as well have focused on scumhunting instead.

I bear no real ill will towards you, Elyse; it was all an act. I will say that your unwillingness to admit fault did make my job a little easier, though.

Sorry to camn and ckd for letting them down. I felt as if I was flailing a little on that last day, since I wasn't very prepared for pushing on apf. Wish I could have pulled the final three off, but reading the PTs it seems my fate was already more or less sealed going into the last day, and that's comforting, sort of.

Big thanks to the mods, especially Performer, and the players too for a great game! I hope to see all of you again.

[Lokiben]

This was the post I was labeling as a slip. It just wasn't a town reaction in my view

Since 36 minutes ago? Just general exasperation and frustration. I'd rather convince farmer to vote you, but he's unwilling to engage me so bah. I guess I should be investigating him anyway in case my conviction in your flip is hurt by confirmation bias.

Oh, should have figured. About the brain fart here, I did understand in advance the significance of tictac posting without voting, but the fact that it slipped my mind probably means that this really was a slip.

Oh, and I forgot to mention, I feel there should be some protocol in place for stalemates. Cheery Dog's suggestion in the mod chat, in which a stalemate is a scum loss, seems fair. Objectively, I had literally no incentive to kill and I only killed PK for the sake of the game.

[Lokiben]

If you say so.

[Lokiben]

If you say so.

Poor choice of words. I'm just surprised its so open ended.