Secret Alt Mafia 2 – Game over!

[CellPhone]

Which specific circumstances would "allow" you to play obvtown?

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

In other news, Qualford is town, I think I may know who Dead guy is, which makes him likely town, and Gumby is still scum.

Unvote
Vote Gumby

P-edit: Kill it with fire!

scum

Which specific circumstances would "allow" you to play obvtown?

"not getting caught" LOL

scum

gumby is town af and these people mistakenly think they can deride him for an easy bad lynch

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

Thoughts on Dimitri?

Scum. And his posts are artificial. Which means he's scum.

calling 'artificial' a scum tell in a game full of secret alts, lol ok whatever you say

trying to rely on old rules = scum doesn't know how to approach this game

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

I think Great Value is a Great Vote.
VOTE: Great Value
That entry post and paragraph was far too strong-arming. "Look at me! I'm the guy with everyone's best interests at heart! I will make an antagonist out of this Shiba Anime-name guy!"
Eh. It gets out of RVS/RQS/PB&J, so I am down with this course of action.

knows greatvalue is town

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

Lol, no. There are bad surface-level reasons to suspect Greatvalue: "stifling conversation" "not answering RQS because he's afraid he'll get caught" "overexplaining himself" etc. I'm not voting him for any of that shit, and I wish people would stop assuming.

There are mid-level reasons to read Greatvalue as town. He has a genuine-sounding tone. He talks like he believes what he's saying. People at this level are assuming I'm using level 1 reasoning to scumread him.

There are high-level reasons why Greatvalue is scummy. No one has touched on this yet. Natural Aristocracy came close but didn't nail them.

looks like playing with you is gonna be fun

on opposite day

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

VOTE: gwen

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

if megafan keeps up the spelling bs for more than like five posts = probscum

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

I think scum tried to wagon you, got called out for it, and are searching for easy pickings.

which scum and where? does this apply to all four of your stated scumreads? if not, why didn't you say who?

saying this is meaningless if you don't tie it to a player or players

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

Dipsy is scum taking a very surface skim approach looking for things to attack. He's not looking at intent. At all.

if i were not looking at intent i would have been saying things like "anyone who pushes gumby is scum" when in fact i said two specific people were trying to deride gumby's claim to push through a lynch, which is exactly what looking at intent looks like

Totally whitewashing the point that even though this game is full of alts, the "old ways" of scumhunting still apply and are perhaps the purest. Dimitri is not coming off as artificial because he's an alt. He's coming off artificial because he's scum having to fake everything he says and does. There's an extra barrier there, and you notice it in his posting. It doesn't feel natural.

not what you said. what you said is "his posts are artificial. which means he's scum." not "his posts are artificial in this specific scummy way". you said that all artificiality means scumminess

if you'd given this quoted explanation at the time i'd have believed you but you stripped out all the nuance

it's about as likely you failed to communicate that thought properly than you came up with the above afterwards though so i don't really care about this anymore. it's still really lame as a read though but lame reads are p null

Also lol on the thought that everybody pushing Gumby must be scum. It's never that simple, and rarely true. That looks very much like a white knight of Gumby, which is the only thing that really puts a dent in my scum read there.

my calling out the two people voting for gumby is not the same thing as "everybody pushing gumby must be scum", which is why i didn't say the latter

what it looks like when i make a general statement along lines of "everybody doing x thing = alignment telling" - contrast to how i addressed individual posts re: gumby rather than make general statement "people voting gumby are scum"

that's how you know that there could have been people voting gumby in ways i found less scummy. there just weren't

maybe consider my intent next time lol

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

Gwen:

That's fair. I am interested in you going a bit more in-depth with where Dipsy is only going with surface reactions rather than intent. I can see where you're coming from in his ISO, but I'd like you to be a bit more specific rather than making a sweeping statement. Of course, I want to see how Dipsy responds, too. Not enough that I'd lend my vote in that direction, though.

could you be on the fence any harder

UNVOTE: gwen
VOTE: aristocracy

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

@Aristocrat: If Dipsy was actually trying to figure out intent, he would have asked me about the artificial statement, not sweep it aside with "alt" and telling me the "old ways" of scumhunting didn't apply.

if i were still trying to figure it out, maybe

not when i already decided i'd figured it out

if i already think i know what your intent was i don't gain anything from asking you what your intent was because you can't objectively review my conclusion

In my case, it had absolutely nothing to do with his miller claim (even though I have my doubts).

you voted right after a miller claim that was transparently protown and made no comment on what seems like a pretty important thing about your scumread's behaviour

seems like a pretty impressive mental feat to divorce something as big as a claim from your read

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

Dipsy:

So... asking for someone to speak more on their read and be specific while saying that my added vote to pressure a response on you seems unnecessary/not in my interests is fence-sitting?

You're a let down.

'i think your read has good points but i want to hear more from you'

'i'm interested and dipsy has to say more but i'm not ready to vote for him'

you really couldn't be playing both sides of that harder

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

I'd be willing to vote for you. Not going to now for a few ~reasons~, but know that you're on the list.

oh no

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

Dipsys town read on Gumpy is something I agree entirely with him, that said I don't agree with him saying that people pushing Gumpy alone is a scum tell. I do want him to explain his megafan comment

megafan is deliberately using v bad spelling and grammar which is going to endear him to other players about as much as genital warts

town's going to get fed up with not being taken seriously and tone it down before long

scum keeps it going to hide behind

i was tempted to just not say this and wait to see if he kept doing it but i decided i liked it more as an incentive for megafan to just stop already before making it a thing

as well as why his vote went to Gwen over NA.

miller claim feels like biggest thing to have happened today, decided to prioritise a vote which dealt with handling of that

aristocracy is scummiest now though

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

I agreed with the read but wanted to see more of Gwen's process.
I wanted to see your response but felt my vote was unnecessary in seeing your response.
I do not see how this is fence-sitting. There are no 'maybes' in that situation.
I did agree with Gwen's read on you. Hearing more on the read was not going to change my mind about that.
I did want to hear your response to that read/those points. Voting you was not something I was going to do in order to rile you into response.

You're picking up what I wrote and misappropriating it as "I am not sold on your read. I want to vote Dipsy but will wait until he responds" which is fence-sitty. That is not what I posted, though.

I don't know if you're doing this because you couldn't make heads or tails of what may be an unclear situation or if you're pushing this narrative to excuse voting for an easy wagon to push.

Regardless, try again.

semantics

'yeah good job but i'm not ready to commit' is scum language

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

I'm glad the people scum-reading me can't articulate much more than "Oh he is confident there is scum in two people!" and "Seems slimy!"
There's not much I can address there.

In short, give me something to work with.

this is how scum reacts to wagons - 'stop saying why i'm scum if you can't let me argue against it it's not fair'

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

That's not necessarily true.

nothing is 100%, it's all degrees of which alignment is more likely to do what

scum does that more than town

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

Ironically, Yadtm identifying as female narrows down her alt possibilities, because they're a minority group. And my previous theory still holds true.

is this real life

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

You keep substituting my actual words for shit you're coming up with.
Your 247 rubs me all kinds of wrong, especially because
A) That's bullshit. Town can be frustrated at that, too.

sure but town does some thing proactive about it like evaluating whether or not individual people doing it to you are scum. you're just whining, which makes me think it's just for show

I'm frustrated with you.

i'm not trying to be a dick but i don't care? either alignment would feel frustrated

I never said "I am not ready to commit" in terms of holding onto my vote, which is what you are implying and flat-out saying elsewhere. I was never going to lay a vote on you, even though I agreed with Gwen's assessment of your slot. Stop insisting on this.

yes i am paraphrasing you because that's what i see when i read the words you wrote

like i know what you said, and words to that extent are things that i see from scum more than i do town

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

Basically, you're wrong, annoyingly convinced you are right, willing to disregard what I post to enable you being wrong, and you're acting like a smug sack of conf-biased shit about it.

this part does give me some pause because feeling entitled to be right and accepted for being right is more likely to come from town than scum

on balance though there's more scummy than town and this could be a well judged extension of the whiny stuff you've said elsewhere

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

Total aside;
Should we reveal our main in twilight post-flip?
Or should we save that for post-game?

haven't decided if i'll reveal my main at all, tempted to keep this for other games

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

i'm not frustrated at all

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

having a concorde townread is weird

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

re: cell, voting for someone for one post is lame in a vacuum, but i think the post is actually townish compared to some other handlings of gumpy (actually interested in the thought process of the claim)

quail is p bad. letting him off for affectation seems dumb

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

otherwise you're fine i guess, idrk about shiba but other gumpy/dead town reads are fine

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

I think that the best way to handle situations like this is for a rolecop on him, to determine if he is telling the truth.

oh sure i'll get right on that

do you see town rolecops so often that you just assume we have one

what a weird way to sum up a read

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

also it's not the fact that he claimed miller that makes him obvtown, it's the way he went about claiming so extensively in a way that would be actively dangerous for scum to risk getting wrong

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

If it was

n't

for his claim, I'd have him as a moderate scumread.

And, I believe this is the sum up of the read, and not the sentence that you've posted.

I've made a mistake in typing 'was' -> 'wasn't'.

in terms of what you want to do with gumby re: do we or do we not lynch him, 'idk rolecop him' was a better summary

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

dipsy you're doing that thing again wrt rolecop

elaborate

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

Would you like to vote Quailford with me?

yeah we can see where that goes

VOTE: quailford

don't see aristocracy wagon growing much any time soon sadface

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

Do you have any more comments on the rest of my reads?

don't feel like you pushed the boat out very far, rolecop thing stood out most

i liked the dividers

What do you think about Quailford and my comparison of him with you?

still don't like his treatment of gumby

idrc about your comparison, i'd like the intent thing more if i hadn't already pointed out exactly where you can see my intent, but if it works for you knock yourself out

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

Dipsy

: I don't think that Shiba was trying to direct a rolecop as much as he was suggesting that roles will be able to sort out the miller claim as well as anything else. You've got a case of reading things without considering different context, I guess?

even i can see more room for interpretation in your thing than shiba's rolecop thing. it's not that he _directed_ a rolecop it's that he matter of factly said that we could basically leave it to a rolecop which is an incredibly specific role and more often one given to scum rather than town. like no other role 'sorts out' the miller claim with same clarity a rolecop would so you're giving him too much credit for meaning it in general

i do consider different context, that's like the whole game, but he wrote the sentence that he wrote

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

was the claimed miller lying in that game

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

ok well my point was going to be 'yup of course he was lying because what's the point of putting a miller and a town rolecop in the same game, unlikely to work here'

but i guess you were in a bad setup

so what do you want to do about gumby if we don't have a town rolecop

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

those don't confirm/deny miller claims unless there's one scum left

bored of this now though

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

Do you still have concerns with Spider Gwen?

don't think the artificial thing is a big deal anymore

still think some weird mental gymnastics being done re: her gumby read

volume of posts is protown indicator though

lean town

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

236 244 I am not liking Dipsy's vote here onto NA, given the criticism brought before that he didn't just vote NA at 155. Instead he just votes NA. The response to this criticism comes in 244 rather than 236. If Dipsy's catching up in order, he should have replied to the criticism of why Gwen over NA before moving his vote.

i voted aristocracy after reading 187

the question about why i voted gwen over aristocracy was in 216

so what are you trying to say

if your assumption is that i wouldn't vote before finished catching up then it is faulty

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

it's possible. it's possible i might burst into flames right now

is it more likely?

if i were looking for popular wagons why did i originally go for spider gwen

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

you know my catchup continued even beyond the part where i addressed the q about why i voted gwen

like it's all in a line, minus the posts that were happening in real time, so if it were all a cover up for realising i forgot to explain something you also have to think i quickly found more things to say about other posts. one of them (250) was even an observation that resonated with you

you have to make a lot of leaps to think i'm some kind of forgetful/malicious idiot mastermind when the obvious truth is that i was just reading along

your theory does not fit the evidence

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

Spider Gwen is an early vote without a reason.

you mean apart from the reasons

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p7301495
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p7301499

I don't know why you voted Gwen over NA. That's the whole problem. Your response didn't clear that up. So why don't you tell me why you voted Gwen over NA?

reasons (above) plus priority (explained) equals vote

What do you think of ST?

dunno. i don't think he's done much that interesting

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

I still don't see a reason for a Gwen vote. People disagree on theory all the time. I don't see how a Gwen vote helps resolve the miller situation.

gwen posted 'kill it with fire' as the only reaction to the miller claim, which i described in the post i linked as looking like scum deriding a claim in hopes of easy lynch. that's a reason. you can think it's a bad reason but you can't say it's not a reason

it helps 'resolve' the miller situation (your words, not mine) in that i thought the miller claim was transparently protown and wanted to wagon someone whom i thought was trying to profit off it

this isn't rocket science

You think ST hasn't done anything interesting? ST has the most posts in the game. You should be able to find something interesting.

i flagged up the rolecop thing just like you later did, but the explanation is fine. the strengths of others townreads on him is a bit interesting or might be later, but no i think his posts are pretty dull relative to their word count. interested in other people atm

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

ill try not to suck as much with spelling k?

i p much obliged myself to townread you for backing down so here you go

kinda hollow but the principle mostly stands

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

The orange/bolded above is superscummy. Did you even read it bedore calling it "crap?" LOL I'd wager that you didn't.

Why don't you read it again and pay attention this time.

thinks gumby is scum

invites gumby to reread thing gumby said to 'pay attention' to how it was scummy

you know that thing i said earlier about it being pointless to engage someone you scumread to change your mind on something they did you think is scummy

see how quailford is doing that anyway

this is scum looking busy by having an argument that could not actually be useful as town and try to incriminate what he has identified as a vulnerable player

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

it's possible. it's possible i might burst into flames right now

is it more likely?

if i were looking for popular wagons why did i originally go for spider gwen

Are you always on the defensive like this?

read my iso and find out instead of posturing

or pay attention to the fact that concorde is sticking to an implausible story, which is why i pressed it

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

What's superscummy? Originally trying to go for the "play well enough that you don't get inspected and thus Miller never plays a part" before realising that, frankly, I was basically going to be inspected because I'm crap so claiming was a good idea?

"play well enough that you don't get inspected and thus Miller never plays a part"

::::: Because no matter how well you play, everyone gets wagoned to some extent eventually. So he would claim what, vanilla? And when people play consciously or cautiously, they often trigger suspicion anyway. Then, guess what? They move up the list to being investigated. So chances are he'd claim miller AFTER being investigated, LOL. That's the whole reason why, if you're a miller, it better be in your first post.

Here is what I think happened.

Gumby & scumteam discussed the fakeclaim in the scum PT. By the time they decided to get on with the plan, Gumby had already made a few posts.

hey wise guy for this to make sense they would have planned it in that surprisingly lengthy confirmation phase and not have strung it out for a bunch of posts before making the play

you haven't thought about this at all

hey everyone it's because he's scum and gumby is town

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

Riiight. I don't believe that, because just a standard readthrough would have told you why we were both voting Gumby. Saying you were looking at intent is BS.

i know why you described gumby as scummy. you thought he voted shiba when he should have voted dead. i thought it was pretty uninteresting as a reason and the claim should definitely have got you thinking more than it did because something like that is a much bigger deal for figuring out someone's alignment than one or two posts that you could easily have been misinterpreting.

claims are a huge part of how someone plays. it is easy to be wrong about deciphering intent behind how someone uses their vote. this is basic mafia stuff. your only response as the claim came out was 'kill it with fire' and that definitely wasn't appropriate consideration

I think you knew full well what I meant. Heck, you talked about the "old ways" of scumhunting, which means you knew in what manner I meant it.

And even if you didn't, as town you'd not assume I'm only looking at alt-esque things, and you'd ask me. This was just you jumping on something because it would look good and townish for you to jump on it.

take responsibility for the words you wrote. the fact that you wrote a blanket statement made it look like you were not considering the nuance of a secret alt game. you phrased it in the simplest way possible.

as town i'd do whatever the fuck i like, including not asking you about something that looked cut and dried based on the wording

my calling out the two people voting for gumby is not the same thing as "everybody pushing gumby must be scum", which is why i didn't say the latter

Yes. You just called everybody scum that was pushing Gumby as scum. Totally not the same thing.

yes you idiot the difference is subtle but important

what it looks like when i make a general statement along lines of "everybody doing x thing = alignment telling" - contrast to how i addressed individual posts re: gumby rather than make general statement "people voting gumby are scum"

I don't see how this has any bearing whatsoever in generalized statements. That was you pointing out a policy thing, which didn't need pointing out and was just fluff. Not the same thing. This is a BS point.

"everyone voting for gumby is scum" is a policy thing, stop being dense. general, policy, functionally the same. but i didn't do that. i pointed out specific posts and said why i thought those posts were indicative of scum

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

still pretty happy to kill aristocracy or quailford

also it's p suspicious that phantom hasn't even showed up. given the nature of the game think it's either a v/la we should have been told about or someone who really didn't want a scum pm in this game but got one

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

also it's p suspicious that phantom hasn't even showed up. given the nature of the game think it's either a v/la we should have been told about or someone who really didn't want a scum pm in this game but got one

like i imagine we were all p excited to sign up for this and the most reliable way i know for some people to have that excitement drain away is to draw scum

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

The Phantom of the Opera should be up for a prod around now, but they've been having trouble logging onto their account (hopefully resolved) so I'm going to give them a bit more time.

ok disregard the scum thing then

[CellPhone]

In other news, Qualford is town, I think I may know who Dead guy is, which makes him likely town, and Gumby is still scum.

Unvote
Vote Gumby

P-edit: Kill it with fire!

scum

Which specific circumstances would "allow" you to play obvtown?

"not getting caught" LOL

scum

gumby is town af and these people mistakenly think they can deride him for an easy bad lynch

Only scum can come up with such easy scumreads. The two above are probtown.

[CellPhone]

hoping that it's just the start of his catching up.

It is. Much, much more to come.

[CellPhone]

I'd be willing to vote for you. Not going to now for a few ~reasons~, but know that you're on the list.

oh no

Well.... I am now reconsidering my thoughts on Dipsy Doodle. This is a solid town reaction to the threat of a vote.

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

The timing of the claim was incredibly scummy. He starts getting suspected by several players and then throws up his hands and cries Miller. I wanted that dead. And let's not even get into his statement about his ability to obv. town if he needs to and how that contradicts what just happened with his miller claim.

that's not any different to how a town player behaves if they draw miller and think at the start of the game that they would be best off not mentioning it. knowing that the claim itself invites suspicion only makes it more likely that it will come out incredibly quickly under suspicion because you essentially take on the scum persona of having something to hide, so you feel it much more keenly when people suspect you and it snowballs. the timing of the claim seems null. way it was handled reads town

and since when does someone thinking they can be obvtown have anything to do with how obvtown they actually are. 95% of people on this site, myself included, think they're better than they are

take responsibility for the words you wrote. the fact that you wrote a blanket statement made it look like you were not considering the nuance of a secret alt game. you phrased it in the simplest way possible.

Screw you. You knew what I meant when I wrote that, otherwise you wouldn't be talking about the old ways of doing things, which focuses on whether a post is genuine or not. Don't try to weasel out of this by shifting the blame onto me.

you're always going to assume that you communicated your thought in the way you intended. but you didn't. there's nothing else to say to this that isn't exactly what i've already said so i'm done

"everyone voting for gumby is scum" is a policy thing, stop being dense. general, policy, functionally the same. but i didn't do that. i pointed out specific posts and said why i thought those posts were indicative of scum

Bull crap. You only pushed those who were pushing Gumby as scum. And no, you didn't give reasons. You just pointed at our posts and said scum and then followed that up with some BS about scum trying to push the miller claim. Town would have stepped back and looked at that wagon and what happened. Only 2 people on the wagon likely meant scum was not messing with Gumby's claim if he was town. At most you had 1 scum on there, meaning your job should have been to figure out which vote was the scum one. You didn't do that. You just made a blanket statement of "everybody on this wagon (which was everyone pushing him) is scum". Stop trying to evade responsibility with this semantics BS.

playing to expected values of scum presence in x wagon is dumb. i read individual posts and looked for scum behaviour in them. you're demanding a thought process from me that if you were honest with yourself i don't think you'd be able to say that more than a generous 10% of town players actually use, regardless of merit

again i'm only going to go in circles here and i lean town on you so i have no interest in going round again. it would be nice if there were someone else scumreading gumby in a better way somehow so that you/quailford could stand in contrast but your refusal to engage with the notion that just because i objected to the only two gumby scumreads doesn't mean i would have objected to every one were there more is irritating

the sample size is two ffs

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

why did cellphone's catch up abort after two posts

is it that much effort

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

Well, I guess I can mark Spider Gwen down as yet another player who thinks I'm 'fencesitting' because I can say more than one thing about something.

I don't like the Quailford wagon--the reasons why people are on it make sense from their PoV, but I don't like its composition and I'm not crazy about Quailford as scum on top of that.
It seems weird that Dimitri, Dipsy, and Shiba are all there given how much they've had differing thoughts earlier on. Gumby is probably the only one I wouldn't fault for being on that wagon, as Quailford has been lingering with a Gumby vote for awhile. I don't trust Dipsy's judgment at all and I think Dimitri has been swinging for the fences with really easy votes without putting in much else.

I don't think Quailford's posting has been amazing, to be honest. There's a sort of carefree and hands-off approach going on that's contrary to how a lot of us are tackling this game, so I can't really make heads or tails of it. Ultimately, I feel like there are far better candidates for lynching today and while Quailford isn't some shining bastion of town, dude isn't the scummiest by a longshot.

I should probably be supporting this wagon, because I think Soothsayer's comments on Quailford are pretty spot-on and because I'm likely going to be lynched if it doesn't go through, but, hey, fuck it, sticking to my guns here.

obv this is dreadful but you guys got that already

[CellPhone]

I simultaneously hate and love TPotO.

Catch-up is on hold momentarily, I will be back anon with more meaty content.

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

Gwen, I think there's some fundamental misunderstanding going on in your posts. 420 is townie but also as high as its name regarding Dipsy. I could give you some line about me knowing everything about Dipsy forty two times over, but that's not going to actually going to help you see that. So onto substance now.

Dipsy is right that scum can push a wagon without voting it. The not subtle attack on Gumby by ST is exactly that. If ST was town reading Gumby, he too would view the rolecop on him as a waste. Scum are going to suggest imply and try to divide town but hope town bites first and sheep it.

Not everyone follows the miller claim post one rule. That assumption is built into your post. Have you ever considered that his miller claim was the ace in the hole to obvtown himself?

Explain to me the contradictions in NA's post as if I am as dumb as Shady wants me to be. I don't see them at all and I'm confident you won't either after breaking it down into its component parts.

Now, the riling up comment. Having us two fight isn't worthless, mostly because ST is scum and the best retaliation they can muster is I am dumb for catching ST falling all over himself. ST will have to comment on what goes on, knowing I will catch each and every actual contradiction. One I will get to in a moment.

Let's talk this out. I am all very confident ears SG.

this feels slimy but the 420 line is funny

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

Being on the defensive constantly is something many people read as scummy.

Correct.

I am fully prepared to handle such a scenario.

This post is directly in contradiction to ST stating that NA should focus on "absolving" the wagon on himself rather than attacking the logic behind shitty wagons. By focusing on defending himself, NA will look scummy and ST knows it. So why would ST advise NA to focus on peeling off his own wagon? So NA looks scummy and is lynched while ST can laugh on the sidelines saying "told you he was town".

this is p good though

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

gumby is town af and these people mistakenly think they can deride him for an easy bad lynch

While I don't disagree with your call on Gumby, I very much dislike that your reasoning is so shallow at this point. The failure of a player to discern the alignment of another does not make them scum unless you believe they have the ability to make the proper call. You have no familiarity with any of these players, so in immediately making the call to strike out against them you are making the same mistake they themselves are making.

point conceded. i assumed people would be competent. not always a safe assumption

calling 'artificial' a scum tell in a game full of secret alts, lol ok whatever you say

trying to rely on old rules = scum doesn't know how to approach this game

The argument you imply in this post is also complete and utter nonsense unless somehow calling people artificial is an assertion that can only be made when one is aware of another's meta. Your thinking here is also binary to the point of being unbelievable. Your claim is that people relying on conventional beliefs somehow means that they are scum, but this argument requires completely how these conventional beliefs came into play in the first place (lots of people had them). I am uncomfortable with the logic you've presented thus far because it's very difficult to believe that a player actually believes in the arguments you're presenting, but I shall continue reading regardless.

the very first thing you notice in this game is that people are putting on personas to differentiate from their mains. over the first few pages in particular you really notice the kinds of personalities being displayed. artificiality is everywhere, it's built into the game, and blankly saying that artificiality = scum in the post that i quoted there looked like a total failure to consider context

knows greatvalue is town

This is yet another nonsense argument that you present. What in any of Natural Aristocracy's posts gives you the idea that he "knows" Greatvalue is town? What argument are you trying to imply here?

artistocracy presents greatvalue like it is a really strong vote ("far too strong-arming", presents caricature of his posts) and then immediately undermines it by saying "eh gets us out of rvs". that's the caveat for when/if greatvalue flips town and he can say 'no i definitely wasn't wilfully wagoning a townie early on, look i wasn't even that sure because i was mostly interested in getting out of rvs'. looks like he already knows that the wagon will eventually not look good

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

Your assertion, if you remember correctly, was that two players were pushing at Gumby and were scum as a result, which is functionally the same as claiming all players who push Gumby are scum if you don't give you a reason to differentiate, which you didn't. However, I am now more willing to play ball with you now that it seems like you've straightened up your act a bit. Why did you choose the two players to push that you did over any player that pushed Gumby?

i thought the why was obvious as i keep saying it (tone of their posts was immediate derision of the claim, which seems totally wrong town reaction to that claim)

This line of logic makes no sense to me based on the above quote.

Your claim with regards to your Gumby chainsaw was: because you picked on specific players and didn't say "all players who push Gumby are scum", your push was in depth and thus looking for intent.
Your claim with regards to Spider Gwen's reading of Dimitri is: because you said that a specific player sounding artificial made them scum, you are claiming that all people who sound artificial are scum and thus are providing a shallow thought process and am thus scum.

Can you explain these two positions for me in a way where they don't seem mutually exclusive to hold in one mind? If you'd like to claim that you're attempting different styles of scum hunting in the same post I suppose I'd let you slide, but otherwise, you have some explaining to do.

she literally said "his posts are artificial. which means he's scum", which is a blanket statement on what artificiality means. when she said it in that post, it wasn't "davidoff is artificial in this way which is different to other kinds of artificiality", it was "artificial means scum"

(again: i'm satisfied with the later explanation but the original post justified my interpretation)

town's going to get fed up with not being taken seriously and tone it down before long

scum keeps it going to hide behind

This seems like yet another of your "woefully shallow" accusations. Ignoring a player's posting because their spelling is poor is something that players with poor comprehension or a lack of patience are more likely to do than players who have a bit more patience for the absurd;

this means that Megafan1998 is going to be treated differently by players based on their personalities and not on their alignment

. In this case, it seems pretty reasonable for Megafan1998 as town to continue with his gimmick because it's fun for him and because he dislikes the players with a lack of patience and reading comprehension.

I, of course, detest his style and pray that he will stop of his own accord. If this post was nothing more than an incentive to get him to stop, I apologize but believe asking nicely would be a more productive route. If this post was an attempt to discern his alignment and a genuine line of thought, then I'm afraid you've failed.

you have not understood. i did not say that only town would ignore megafan for his spelling (what underlined sentence implies i said). i agree it's personality. which means likely large subset of game, regardless of alignment, ignores megafan, which frustrates megafan if town or gives him license as scum. megafan likely enjoys it even as town, obv, but will he enjoy it enough to risk nobody listening to him. scum is happier to coast on that than town

i might have exaggerated for effect but i believe in the logic

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

I won't have time to get to this until Sunday and little bit of tomorrow morning.

Will wreck some havoc afterwords.

SCUMFUCK TRYING TO PSYCH HIMSELF UP FOR A BULLSHIT CATCHUP POST
NICE TRY SCUMBAG BUT THERE'S NO WAY IN FUCKING HELL YOU CAN FOOL ANYBODY IF YOUR OPENING POSTS SUCK THIS BAD

is this the only reason why you have declared jihad on davidoff

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

Phantom, stop yelling please. It's hard for me to tell what's important in your post versus not. We have a lot of the same reads. We can work together. I don't think Dmitri is town but I much prefer a ST lynch. It sounds like, but I am not certain you're leaning the same way but preferring Dmitri.

How about this, I stay out of your way, you try to lynch Dmitri scum. I try to lynch ST. If Dmitri needs a hammer, I will. You hammer ST if the situation is reversed. We an count each others votes and pressure two likely scum at the same time.

Do you want me to even finish my reasoning for ST scum or not?

as you seem surprised that phantom allcapsed for a post despite him saying he would adopt a variety of personas, this looks like you only skimmed all of his posts, so the offer of cooperation rings false

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

I know your alt too.

you literally just tried to claim "alt hunting" was a scumtell

misrep leaves out important part where concorde said alt hunting was scummy _if done before alignment hunting_

p confused about concorde now

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

Dimitri Davidoff - Scum. Had a bad, sheepy entry and has been a relative lurksack with bad votes all around.
You are dead to me - Scum. Had a bad leap to my wagon the second he came under fire. As far as I am aware, has not explained his pushes much at all despite feigning conviction.
Megafan1998 - Scum. Scum logic, scum play, don't see any redeeming qualities or worthwhile pushes.

looks like aristocracy doesn't know how to fake a scumread on town who post a lot so felt cornered into scumreads like these

that's what happens to me as scum

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

I just realized how easily I can be influenced by ALLCAPS. It's uncanny.

VOTE: Dimitri

man this guy really believes in his cellphone vote right

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

So Qualford/Gwen

I new few more names and this game is good as solved.

I like the confidence in helping solve the game! But I would like it if you tried a whole lot harder to solve the game because this effort isn't cutting it!! Gwen isn't scum and you picking on her like this is makes me angry!

if davidoff thought he had half the scumteam solved already why would he need lots of effort

he hasn't come back with the rest of it solved yet obviously but this doesn't make sense as a critique

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

Okay, I get that any player is going to see themselves as obv. town. However, that's not what Gumby was saying. He said that he could act obv. town depending on the role. He made it explicitly clear that miller was not one of those roles. But if he was hoping to play miller by playing obv. town, then why did he claim? If he knows he can play obv. town in such a manner, then him drawing miller should not make a difference.

because pressure + having an incriminating secret = rash decisions

And on your sample size thing, it's absolute BS that you wouldn't step back and look at the bigger picture. Going individually is fine, but when you would then look and see that you're calling the entire wagon scum based on a Gumby push, you should have stopped and realized your assumptions were skewed somewhere. You didn't. And the fact that you attacked both posts at the same time in the same post shows that you had no interest in figuring that out. You just jumped on something you could push, and you white knighted the miller.

no seriously fuck the bigger picture with a two-vote wagon and individual posts that look bad. you can't vote for a bigger picture on day 1. you find individual behavior that is scummy and pursue it

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

Also forgot to mention I hated Dipsy's Phantom attack for not posting. Still goes with finding easy things to just push.

you have confirmation bias

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

soothsayer, how does that dimitri case look good to you, it looks like a bunch of reaching crap to me and the wagon as a whole is sketchy

not soothsayer but is a lot less than i expected for a whole post devoted to giant allcaps death cry

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

I mean I really feel like I've peeled back the facade and showed the scum motivation and intent, and everybody is just wandering around ignoring the blatantly scummy scum. I mean, this is RT Mad King territory here. And you say he explains it, and I'm still pointing going "It still doesn't make sense from town! That explanation doesn't make sense!". I just want you guys to stop trusting the obvious super villain here.

lol i'm flattered but you're just wrong

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

Vote:Dmitri

Go ST. Lurk off that wagon like a champ.

Let's play a game. Color the wagons.

• Votecount 1.12
  
  
  
  Dimitri Davidoff (6)— Greatvalue,
  The Phantom of the Opera, Natural Aristocracy, Quailford LOL, Meganfan1998
  
  
  Quailford LOL (4)
  —
  Dimitri Davidoff, Shiba Tatsuya,
  Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy, Gumby
  
  
  Natural Aristocracy (3)—
  Shady,
  You are dead to me,
  Spider Gw
  en
  
  
  CellPhone (1)— the_soothsayer
  
  

  Not Voting

  (1)— CellPhone
  
  
  It takes 8 to lynch or no lynch.
  
  
  Deadline
  
  
  Deadline hits in (expired on 2015-10-24 08:08:29).
  
  
  Mod notes
  
  
  Prodding CellPhone and Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy. Let's pick it up a bit please.

How far off am I? Do your own.

who does this without flips

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

not excited about the davidoff wagon at all, greatvalue closest thing to a townread i have on it and that's mostly from aristocracy anyway

soothsayer you need a new vote

cellphone probably just needs to be replaced

[CellPhone]

I have been prodded. I have been skimming but I need to do another full read.

There's so much anger here.

[CellPhone]

The people off the Dmitri wagon need to explain why, without referring to the makeup of the wagon. That's circular. The wagon on Dmitri sucks. Why? The wagon composition is terrible. Why? He's town. Why? The wagon composition is terrible. Why? He's town. Why? Wagon composition is terrible. Rinse. Repeat.

Some years ago I tried to use speculation on alignments as a way to enhance VCA. It failed spectacularly and repeatedly. I have long abandoned the practice.

I fail to see the correlation between the quote and the ....whatever that is. Response? Non sequitur? Flailing? Whatever it is, there ain't no connection.

So why are you posting?

...Not looking forward to having to try and read Concorde. I always seem to get

that one

wrong.

Clarify? Or elaborate?

[CellPhone]

I am too sexy for my skin, too sexy for my skin

Well,

that's

underwhelming.

i voted dmitri cause i lov and trust phtantom

Such a stellar reason for a vote.

its day 1, i dont need to do shit but live long enough to wait until a couple people die so i only have to convince a couple of idiots to lynch the scum instead of 9000

And you people accuse ME of coasting.

I don't have enough eyeroll emoticons.

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

Both Dipsy & Dimitri have entered LURK MODE.

nothing interesting was happening

going back now

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

Megafan's 'schtick' is anti-town in every way.
Megafan's push on me was weak and awkward.
Megafan's votes are typically made without a consistency that I can track and often seem to be riding on what's popular at the time.
Megafan, when pressured, offers very little response and/or ignores the pressure away.

never seen that from town

sarcasm

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

LOL exactly as I said.

The player from Wal-Mart gets town points.

So, Shiba Scumsuya = scum and Great Value = town.

VOTE: Quailford

He votes Quail for agreeing with his GV townread and for stating a scumread that Dimitri at this point appears to be null on. This seems like quite the weak excuse.

given that dimitri didnt elaborate on the vote, this interpretation is 100% your own

whole post just looks like you've never met someone who plays like dimitri. that fact is more surprising than you not knowing how to deal with it other than scumread what you don't understand

that looks like i'm giving dimtri credit for some kind of incredible tactics (he's been ineffective at best) but that playstyle is obv _a thing_

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

I barely skimmed.

I see no reason to post until the Russian is dead.

no bueno

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

I am too sexy for my skin, too sexy for my skin

Well,

that's

underwhelming.

pot and kettle

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

mass exodus from kumquat wagon is the first thing made me want to be on a kumquat wagon

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

cellphone who do you think is scum

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

I barely skimmed.

I see no reason to post until the Russian is dead.

no bueno

Didn't you do the same thing?

nothing interesting has happened =/= no intention of posting until one slot is dead

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

I am too sexy for my skin, too sexy for my skin

And this is the ONE post from Dimitri's replacement? LOL

Oh alright

VOTE: Kumquat

this guy

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

i posted when i got prodded, what are you talking about

[CellPhone]

cellphone who do you think is scum

Definitely kumquat. Probably mega (but could be troll, so it's a weak scumread).

Phantom of the Opera is almost definitely scum, I just feel it.

To much lesser degrees, dipsy-doodle (largely for the lurking; yeah yeah pot kettle laugh it up already), dead to me, and soothsayer.

i dont think hes unlikely to get lynched

but that has the feel of a convenient read

There's quite a few people town reading Quailford and more that seem unwilling to change from Kumquat so I'd say it's fairly unlikely whereas Cell has a genuine chance of going through

and is actually scum

.

This just feels like a scumslip. Sometimes scum tend to magnify their targets to ridiculous levels.

VOTE: kumquat

[CellPhone]

Oh, and Kumquat is at

L-1.

[CellPhone]

That isn't my argument.

But how do you know what soothsayer meant? Are you buddies with them?

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

mass exodus from kumquat wagon is the first thing made me want to be on a kumquat wagon

You do realise the unvotes from the Kumquat wagon are 1) GV whose vote was an RVS vote who unvoted because he didn't have a read on Dimitri and didn't want to inflate the wagon (Which is entirely understandable), 2) Gumby who is town and wanted to take him off L-1 to give him a chance to respond (Nothing wrong with that) and has since revoted him, 3) Quailford (Who had previously expressed a desire to lynch CellPhone anyway) who has since revoted Kumquat and 4) Megafans vote. So it's hardly a "mass exodus" at all.

yeah on second look it's probably just quailford being involved that makes it look bad

why aren't we lynching quailford again

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

Cell and Kumquat are buddies. Cell's wagon. Kumquat's wagoned. Neither votes each other.

some people think survivalism is a scumtell

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

I was considering asking for a deadline extension to give Kumquat more time, but those last posts of his seals the deal.

Unvote
Vote Kumquat

That wasn't a town vote hop from him.

what would have been?

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

that's a really bad vote from gwen. the deadline extension talk feels like posture and gives no reason why kumquat's behavior is scummy

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

separating quotes from the same post for emphasis

cellphone who do you think is scum

Definitely kumquat. Probably mega (but could be troll, so it's a weak scumread).

Phantom of the Opera is almost definitely scum, I just feel it.

To much lesser degrees, dipsy-doodle (largely for the lurking; yeah yeah pot kettle laugh it up already), dead to me, and soothsayer.

i dont think hes unlikely to get lynched

but that has the feel of a convenient read

There's quite a few people town reading Quailford and more that seem unwilling to change from Kumquat so I'd say it's fairly unlikely whereas Cell has a genuine chance of going through

and is actually scum

.

This just feels like a scumslip. Sometimes scum tend to magnify their targets to ridiculous levels.

VOTE: kumquat

how does this come in the same post as you saying your scumread on sooth is "to a much lesser degree"

VOTE: cellphone

making shit up as you go along

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

Name and shame, although you may hold different principles.

the slot is still active. compromising its lack of meta would be unfair

getting distracted by this is probably a town tell for shiba though

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

it's easier to believe that cellphone was just that bad now that we know it was nobody special

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

VOTE: aristocracy

[Joey Tribbiani]

How you doin'.

I read up over the night.

1) How many years of mafia experience do you have on your main account? (Less than 1 year, 1-2 years, 2-3 years, 3+ years)
2) What are your thoughts about the balance of this game, given the reviewers (Faraday and chamber) and the mod (Quilford). Do you have mod meta?

This is a very weak attempt to do things. I don't like the setup fishing before anyone has even posted.

Nobody even answer, please.

What was the point of working against Shiba rather than trying to get a grasp of Shiba's alignment off of that post? Or say why you shouldn't be answering? I cannot say I disagree with not answering, however this is incredibly vague.

snip

This post has me split down two separate trains of thought. My initial thoughts lead in the direction of town, for trying to stimulate discussion. But on a second read, he's not actually

trying

to get a bearing on who he is talking to, he's just congratulating them on moving towards useful discussion. So, in all, he's contributing a huge post that amounts to answering the pointless questions that are ultimately useless at this point in the game.

snip

Really? I'm in an entirely different ballpark, I find his needless assertions of being town and condemning those who question him unnerving. I think the overly verbose nature of his posts gives off a vibe of trying to accomplish things while overall accomplish very little other than getting an understanding of his game theory.

Also I'm townreading Greatvalue

For?

Not afraid to his vote being viewed as OMGUS as a pretty good early indicator of town.

Why is this something that would even remotely be on someone's radar as scum? OMGUS is a weak tell, and is used as a joke in most settings. I can't remember the last time I saw someone legitimately use OMGUS as a tell to push towards someone's lynch outside of RVS.

It looks like you saw a controversial stance to take and wanted to take it, and found the quickest way to substantiate it.

Currently, I have townreads on Greatvalue and Dimitri. Scumreads on YouAreDeadToMe and Natural Aristocracy.

You are townreading those who townread GreatValue and scumreading those who aren't. I don't really think this game is as black and white as people townreading the same people you are townreading, and this one dimensional thought process is distressingly shallow.'

I've already established myself in an active town role.

Happy with my vote.

People townreading GreatValue: don't read his posts at face value. Read between the lines.

Dimitri Davidoff: welcome to my scumpile. Great Value, meet Dimitri. Dimitri, meet Great Value.

Tags fixed. ~Quil

Meanwhile, at the batcave...

Yadtm's definitely identified my primary issue with greatvalue's posts, that they look just fine at a solitary glance, but upon secondary reevaluation they do not hold up in the slightest.

It would greatly help your win condition more if you were to be more articulate in explaining your stances and reasoning behind your reads.

This is newbtown.

Do you really think this? Why would this be the game any newbie is drawn to?

Looking back, I can definitely see this train of thought, especially given the way his reads have been falling, however I still find myself questioning why a newbie picks out an anonymous game.

Vote Dimitri

Dead boy's a good vote, too. Both are scum. Don't know about Aristocrat. I'll wait for him to insult me a bit before a make up my mind.

This is the first time all game we've seen someone stance themselves around people on both sides of the argument being scum, and that is definitely more town-thinking. Scum could easily jump in and pick a side, but picking one from each side shows town actually trying to get an understanding of the other players.

73

I find the last part of this post (the part pertaining to the scumread of Shiba) to be town. Noticing that discrepancy between the ruleset and the perceived notion of being newbtown leads to more of the in-depth thought that comes with the town alignment.

That being said, it looks like he was preparing to vote yadtm with the last line and then his vote on Shiba seems unexplained, and being left to implication bothers me.

84

Why did you instantly jump to discredit the read? I got a townread based solely off of that post, does that mean that read is invalid?

108

This claim takes a lot of cojones to come from scum. My primary question why they didn't out it in their first post, however upon reevaluation I could make out the thought process of attempting to draw a nightkill by being one of the more evidently town players, and to have been initially responded to with a scumread shook that gameplan.

144

This confirms my initial analysis, and I'm definitely on board with gumby being town, because I very severely doubt scum thought of a contingency such as this.

snip

I can understand quailford, but what is bothering you about gwen? I also don't have any qualms with referring to posts as artificial, as there is such a thing as being too over the top in the attempt to mask one's identity where it can become attempting to mask one's alignment. For instance, I find myself refraining from using phrases I have so often fallen back on, in favor of a more verbose and meticulous vocabulary. While yes,, it will probably sound remotely artificial, it is not to the point where Dimitri is.

Reads time

Town
Concorde
You are Dead to Me
Natural Aristocracy
Shiba




soothsayer



Scum
GreatValue
Dmitri
megafan
Quailford

Slot Gumby and Spider-Gwen into the town pool, and remove soothsayer altogether and this pool very closely mirrors my own, which in turn lends itself positively to what your alignment is.

Dipsy is scum taking a very surface skim approach looking for things to attack. He's not looking at intent. At all. Totally whitewashing the point that even though this game is full of alts, the "old ways" of scumhunting still apply and are perhaps the purest. Dimitri is not coming off as artificial because he's an alt. He's coming off artificial because he's scum having to fake everything he says and does. There's an extra barrier there, and you notice it in his posting. It doesn't feel natural.

Also lol on the thought that everybody pushing Gumby must be scum. It's never that simple, and rarely true. That looks very much like a white knight of Gumby, which is the only thing that really puts a dent in my scum read there.

I, more often than not, am finding myself agreeing with the thoughts Spider-Gwen is putting down.

I just wish I had the conviction you do, is all. Makes me curious if you're seeing something you haven't shared (you keep alluding to this, I don't think you ever dropped the bomb on it) or if you're just playing it up.

I like the attempt to get a better understanding of why dead is pushing this wagon, as scum, NA could just as easily sit on the blanket townread from earlier.

There's something dissonant about your posts. For instance with Shiba, I could tell easily that he was newb-town. With you, on the one hand your case on Dipsy suggests you played mafia for quite a while, and on the other hand, you keep talking about things like trying to move votes off of a wagon that's never going to go to lynch anyways like it actually matters that a couple of people are voting me which suggests not understanding how wagons work and looks like you are trying to kiss up to me.

And what does this lead you to think of her alignment?

227

Another post that has me split down two roads. One being the nonchalance regarding how others perceived him as scummy, claiming it to be, essentially, a reaction test, is questionable at best. Almost asking as an attempt to move past already garnered reads. However, I can see why town would want to get some of this information and scum being this forthcoming about attempting to garner information that would pertain towards the success or lack thereof for gambits could simply hide the elaboration in the PT.

I was also tempted to post like Wake.
Thanks for the update.

I think everyone in this game had to come to some consensus on who to mimic as to best cover their alts.

Something to note, I have a townread on Shiba as of page 12, but cannot ascertain the exact reasonings behind it. One thing that is jumping out at me is the way he was townreading all the major wagons- the odds that we had yet to wagon a scum at this point is pretty negligible. The attempt to start a quail wagon also felt good, because I find myself questioning the lack of one. As of 299, I would definitely find myself voting quail.

My readup is done as of post 14, I will likely continue reading coming into tomorrow. I definitely want to investigate the wagons that are evident at the end of the day, however, because I know I am town and kumquat flipped town means there is something very wrong going on here. I haven't gotten to any kumquat posts yet so I don't really know where the wagon is coming from, though.

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

this weekend isn't good for me, back tomorrow

[Fear Thy Name Is Dipsy]

could not post today due to reasons quilford is aware of

back tomorrow