VOTE: wgeurts
Wagons
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I'm not going to have a lot of time to invest in TM, so decided I'd go for the simplest setup.In post 9, gobbledygook wrote:@everyone, why did everyone choose this game?
Agree.In post 43, Dannflor wrote:Eh, I don’t read her stressing about read accuracy as subconscious scum paranoia. The investigative PR name drop just seems coincidental.
I liked how instead of just answering the free question she turned it back around on rooster boi too.
Can you explain?Cephrir wrote:When I saw how active FF was being I thought I would have a townread on him by the time I caught up, but I don't!
It's perfectly fine to introduce a discussion point, but why not just explain that at the beginning?In post 13, gobbledygook wrote:I will reveal this once everyone has answeredIn post 12, Dannflor wrote:Why did you ask that question?
I'll clarify - I wasn't attacking Dann in that comment, I was asking Gobbledygook what he learnt from our responses to his question; and why he said he couldn't reveal the reasons for asking that question.In post 73, Hopkirk wrote:Woah, ease up on the reins there buddy. I don't like this. Why are you chasing Dann up on this so fast? He was clearly going to address this, or if he didn't then it'd be much more useful to ask 'hey Dann why didn't you follow up on this'. What do you get from asking him before he's posted again, because it looks like posturing from you - asking townish questions - to me at the moment.
There's motivation to ask it as both town and scum. I'm only interested in what you've learned from the rest of our responses.gobbledygook wrote:Do you think there is scum motivation for asking that question?
@Gobbledygook.In post 79, Auro wrote:What's your experience playing scum? Can you describe your scum playing style? More specifically - if you roll scum, would you allow being coached by your partners?
Why would not voting you despite our apparent intention to do so make us towny? On the contrary, I'd find that scummy myself.In post 98, gobbledygook wrote:I can't tell if Cephrir was being opportunistic by voting me first while you and Auro were pretty openly probing me with skeptical sounding questions or if you guys are town for not voting me despite the tone of your posts implying that you want to
It would massively help (given you have the time) if you could retrieve those ISOs and try to nail down what exactly made him come off as towny/boring in his respective games, general reads on him, and establish if that's a recurrent pattern in others.In post 109, Cephrir wrote:so i've played two games with you, and i thought you looked really town when you were scum and were boring and just kind of there when you were town. is this a pattern, or is it just me?
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I said I don't have a *lot* of time, doesn't mean I'm going to do nothing.In post 178, wgeurts wrote:Dude what. Quickly interrupting me reading up to state how this is a terrible idea. Why would you participate in an event consisting of games where everyone is expected to be playing at their best, knowing you don't have the time to do so?
Others are dependent on your performance, not just of your team but also your faction in this game. You are an absolute liability to the town if you don't put in effort, which takes time. I really hope to see it from you.
It's quite simple reasoning. A continued push on reasons I (at least initially) disagreed with, on a slot I judge likely town, is slightly likelier to come from scum than random to my eyes. You've never seen someone push someone else for pushing a townread of theirs?Cephrir wrote:I don't think it's a good reason to suspect someone the way you initially stated it
I'm not sure theres a significant difference between minus points and thinking something is more likely than some other action to be a scum tactic
Um, no, I was just highlighting possible scum motivation since he asked what scum motivation could be there. You will see that I eventually take more solid stances on a variety of slots, alleging that I'm 'playing it safe' is untrue.In post 188, Donempire wrote:So you feel hes more likely to be scum from those posts than town, given that you gave reasons he could be scum without pointing out the ways he could be town from that while saying his posts might be town motivated or scum motivated. It bugs me you didnt just straight up say that. It feels like you are trying to play it safe by not calling him scum but shading him regardless.
And besides that, i dont think "your meta as scum" is a good question either. Scum can lie here and town might self incriminate. And this isnt something that provokes discussion either unlike gobble. I want to read everything before saying anything concrete but yeah, dont like this post at least.
Agree. The timing of his vote throws doesn't seem very towny to me either. Still, I'm happier voting FF, and I'd like to see your opinions on him first.Dongempire wrote:Dont want to come off like im parroting gooble but cephrir sucks man. Most of his posts are quick one liners that you cant say much to and he seems afraid to engage properly, especially 81 is awful. I'm fine with placing my vote there but i want to clear my mind on former first because this doesnt play like his towngame.
Then you've not read my post properly. I was calling out scum motivation in maintaining secrecy about the reasoning behind the question; not scum motivation for the question itself.In post 191, Donempire wrote:I dont have a problem with you responding to his question, but why did you feel the need to mention that there could be a town agenda also without providing an example for that? Thats what bugs me.
And you may take the most controversial, extreme opinions later in the game, but right now i stand by saying that you're playing it incredibly safe.
Yes, and hence forces them to answer truthfully. Of course I'llIn post 191, Donempire wrote:I'm interested to hear how you'd easily catch scum lying about their meta, what would you do exactly to find out they are lying? Cause if its reading their scum games for that, then the question is unnecessary as you can just whip out the games and find it out without asking. And yes, i'd agree different approaches. Town would sometimes self incriminate due to meta being mostly similar with slight variation between them, and scum would lie. If they dont then scum can also self incriminate, making it non different for both alignments, therefore not an usefull question.
I think he means you don't appear to be engaging with people in the spirit of solving the game.In post 193, Cephrir wrote:Sorry you don't like my posting style. How does that make me scum?
"Most of his posts are quick one liners that you cant say much to and he seems afraid toIn post 196, Cephrir wrote:Funny, I can't find that in his post at all. Maybe you're making it up.
In post 196, Cephrir wrote:I don't think there's anything especially generic about my opinions. It's a fun word to throw at me though! Yes I have switched twice. Wow what a strong pattern I guess this must be the only thing I'll ever do.
Again,In post 196, Cephrir wrote:I haven't engaged gobble? Or dann, if not at length? What universe do you live in?
I don't really do extended 1v1s if I can help it. I don't typically find that to be useful. I also have a tendency to glaze over long posts and stop processing them at some point, and this game has a lot of those.
Styles can absolutely be anti-town, and hence scummy.In post 196, Cephrir wrote:Of course I disagree. Even if this was the extent of my style (it isn't), styles cannot be scummy. That's why they're called style, not alignment indicative information.
I've quoted a few, but it's hard to provide concrete examples of something that's missing.In post 197, Dannflor wrote:Auro—and Dongempire I guess—do you have specific examples of posts/times where Cephrir seems to be avoiding engaging or not genuinely trying to solve?
My statement about the question coming from town/scum was to show that I agree there's likelier motivation, clarifying that I was instead talking about the secrecy.In post 201, Donempire wrote:I wasnt clear, i meant playing it safe when it came to pressuring gobble, since you didnt place any concrete read on him as of that post.
You lost me in the first paragraph. I already say that i had no problem with you calling out any scum motivation that post might have had, after all thats what gibble asked for. What i had trouble with was that you needlessly said it could come from both town or scum. That was uncalled for in that case.
It might be a small point, i cant argue about its importance. However it was an interesting point for me to dwell on and thats about how i decide on things to push. It wasnt a clear cut point so i pushed it, do you still have a problem with it?
I dont believe im grasping. I think that anyone who looks at the wording your posts had would come to the same conclusion as i have. And im not trying to push you with this either - im still conflicted on which side you're on and this was a way to clarify perhaps, and as long as you work with me on this instead of brushing it away by saying its grasping...
More details on why your teammates suspect me, pl0x?In post 208, Cephrir wrote:My team is supporting me on the Auro suspicion
Hi!! So who's scum nsg?In post 217, northsidegal wrote:oh hi its me
Is there more to this for your Dann scumread?In post 229, Hopkirk wrote:On a second look, FF had mentioned earlier about seeing Dann as 'trying too hard to make friends' with North at the start. Want to look at this as I catch up/reread as calling it a TvT is obviously reasonable for town legit thinking that, but also in character for scum who wants friends.
I explained it in the very post you quoted - FormerFish's content was unimpressive, unlike in my previous games with him. Why was this hard to understand?I don't really get the mindset underlying this vote 24 hours into the event. Could you explain your mindset. Did you have any other scumleans here at all?
The difference I noticed on a light skim was enough to make a decently strong conclusion. Debating it also helped read Dunn to an extent.I don't get how you're concluding on his meta when you've only looked at the scum and forming a conclusion strong enough to be actively debating it with Dunn like that. It feels like a disengage at the end/get out of jail free 'whatever I say here is fine/I'm leaving myself open to changing it since I've barely read his meta.'
I recall saying I don't care much if something's scummy because of posting style?In post 233, Hopkirk wrote:@Auro/Dann/Dong: did any of you look through Ceph meta during this discussion? I think at least 1-2 of you heavily leaned on meta for Gobble (can't remember which 100% atm and I'll check after this) and it feels odd those people are debating 'short posting style' as alignment indicative without looking at meta to see whether that's a posting style thing in every game.
Do you get the same vibes from me?In post 255, Dannflor wrote:It reads like scum who sees something town does that looks really scummy on a surface level and thinks it's a safe vote, when in actuality if they were town they would've taken more time to consider why scum!Cephrir would behave this way
This was from skimming this page alone, or part of your promised effort, or just wagons?In post 265, Espeonage wrote:Vote: Auro
Yes. I think the scenario where Duck makes up a small reason to suspect me and has Damn post it is ess plausible than Duck actually telling him to keep an eye on me, given I find the reasoning provided later genuine. Dann could've just said it and made up a reason post-hoc, but it would've looked fake.In post 269, KittyMo wrote:Is there a reason that makes it specifically town indicative for their slot, though? Like why is the scenario that Mr. Duck had the reasoning to begin with less plausible if the slot is scum?
Yeah, if they were scum I don't think they'd fake a reason for duck to tell Dann to keep an eye out for me.In post 277, Dunnstral wrote:Well if he's town, then his teammate acts one way, if he's scum then his teammate acts the other way, right? Or are you saying that Duck wouldn't bother with that if he were scum?
Example of such question framing?In post 282, Espeonage wrote:Questions are framed to find a way out of suspicion rather than getting a level of understanding which is a scum mindset v town mindset thing.
My intention was to test whether it was an empty statement (scum) or if thereIn post 297, Espeonage wrote:This is really bad.
I want to say town lean, but I'm not sure.In post 273, KittyMo wrote:Do you mind clarifying a bit? My understanding was that your read of him was more or less the same after it, and so I was asking you if there WAS anything seemingly disingenuous about his reasoning. Or if there's anything else you don't like about how he went about it other than he's pushing your townread.
In post 70, Joan of Arc wrote:Just saying I am here.
^Joan of Arc's ISO
In post 300, Dunnstral wrote:[]
[Joan of Arc, Cephrir, Dongempire, wgeurts]
[Kittymo, Auro, Hopkirk]
[Dannflor, Formerfish, northsidegal, Espeonage]
[gobbledygook]
Hey, to be completely frank, I don't really care for winning Team Mafia as a whole.In post 304, Hopkirk wrote:Spent enough time talking about this with my team that I’m reasonably confident I didn’t miss anything, but if anyone notices a way we can possibly still have any chance of winning even with the tiebreaker in place then please let me know.
Kind of kills a lot of the enthusiasm I had for the team element of team mafia.
1. No, it was addressing the assumption that I carried a useless conversation.In post 310, Hopkirk wrote:I got the impression you backed off as you didn't want to continue the conversation and didn't get an impression you had a read on Dunn from it. Saying 'you didn't ask if I formed a read' is a massive cop out/doesn't really sound sincere- sounds more like 'you never told me not to break your flowerpots'.
The 100, 95 thing is just plain wrong. If 'pushing' you/your townreads is scummy then you're saying you think it's scummy to push people you don't have a read on which definitely runs contrary to everything I've heard before.
Why are you settling at a nullread when the towngames might get you a townread on him or a scumread? I don't like that you're abandoning the read as null when you literally have a source of information that you said you were planning to look at that could swing it one way or the other.
Lol IIn post 312, Hopkirk wrote:If I look through your other games are they going to mention you having any reads in any of those?
I low key scum read NSG atm, not this post but just thought I'd mention it.
NSG's being clear in her lack of effort so far, and has mentioned there are other reasons.In post 316, Hopkirk wrote:Haven't played with him so no idea if him not being active is scum indicative like I've heard it is for other people. Someone mentioned NSG has a rep for that so do you have any thoughts on her lack of activity/how this differs to your read on FF?
Ask your teammates for the reasons? Say it was a gut read, point to specific posts that made them feel so perhaps?Cephrir wrote: What would you propose I say instead when asked to explain a teammate's read when they didn't offer any reasons? I was heading off an expected attack about this lack of reasons when my team is primarily, though not entirely, communicating in gut read form.
2. Yes, but I'm looking at things from my perspective, where the only information I know for sure isIn post 318, Hopkirk wrote:1- nothing further to address
2- Because your townreads are other peoples nullreads. I think you might have misunderstood what I was saying. Unless you think that every townie should have reads perfectly alligned with yours (especially early on) then their pushing your townreads is more likely (given num town vs num scum) to be a town pushing a nullread. The majority of pushes are going to be town/town especially early on when people are trying to do initial sorts and reads are light.
3- Reading Gobble meta would also help sort Dunn right? I'm assuming you're just
I understand 'not wanting to put the effort in'. I was going to look at Gobble's past games when I noticed Hectic in a few of them and thought 'phew, wasn't looking forward to diving into meta' since I'm getting to a fairly busy time workwise again (gosh darn December year ends).
Yeah, that alone is a reason I'd avoid lynching her D1. She isIn post 319, Hopkirk wrote:I haven't played with North in a while but I think I heard somewhere she's strong town. Is that why you'd avoiding lynching there, or is it because you think she's easier to sort later, or something else?
Think you said FF was strong town (though may be twisting your phrasing here when you just meant like 'active') so is there a difference there?
Didn't NSG's lack of effort come after the FF exchange? Her early posts didn't really specify anything of that sort.
No, you do realize my response was to show that you had made an assumption regarding my lack of read, right? I'm not going to constantly state my readslist on every person, moreso if I'm ending up with a town read/lean on someone not under scrutiny.In post 325, KittyMo wrote:I'm going to have to mull over how that shifts it. "Why didn't you ask me if my read changed" is...I'm again not a fan, I didn't see anything in Auro's posts that implied the needle had moved there. (Am I expected to constantly ask him if his reads changed?)
Do note that this is Team Mafia: even if she rolled scum, her teammates would readily divert some attention here, no? I can't imagine them taking "lurking" as a scum strategy here...In post 343, gobbledygook wrote:I don't know, independent of her meta tell for being scum, the fact that she left her vote on wgeurts despite naming him as one of her THREE town reads seems pretty bad coming from the Paragon.
I mean given her strength as town versus scum in *this* setup especially, why not?In post 349, Dunnstral wrote:but your argument seems to assume they put her scum game as a priority while they don't care if she's town
Why not? I have stated I do this as town, and Dunn has sort of affirmed it too.In post 355, Espeonage wrote:The point I am making is that there is a right way to ask about suspicion on yourself, and just asking and getting ammo on how to fix it and be town read is not the way to do it.
This should be outside the spoilered quote, sorry.In post 358, Auro wrote:And that I'm not working with others is blatantly false - what the hell?
I asked him this and this was answered earlier.In post 365, Formerfish wrote:How do you feel about Auro since has basically did the same things as Dong here? Are you tring Auro since you think scumDong latched onto his bad read on Ceph?
Which part of "they still didn't bother shifting votes off a top 3 townread" is fallacious? It's a pretty standard standard to hold someone to, moreso from a known competent player.In post 354, Espeonage wrote:Y'all can revisit this later as anecdotal evidence but I am gonna need more than logical fallacies to join wagons for the sake of it.
In post 372, Formerfish wrote:So you care more about the single rvs vote on wgeurts from NSG that is in no way a danger to wgeurts because he has one vote and I havent seen many people saying hes on the top of their scum list.
NSG has said she isnt very involved in the thread right now and you seem to have an issue with that.
Joan said shes here and then naked votes Gob and you seem to be just aofuckingk with that for some reason.
Why worry about a vanity rvs vote at all?
So after more than one person asked you to look at my town games where my posts come off exactly like this, and my calling your allegation of "not working with anyone" blatantly false... You justify your vote on me because wagon composition?In post 355, Espeonage wrote:All of the mentality stuff I am reading in Auro's posts reads to me as working out how to be town read not how to convince others of their own reads to work with others
Both of them have played with me before.In post 382, Espeonage wrote:at least one of them is very likely reading this game completely differently to me.
What sort of dumb logic is this?In post 386, Espeonage wrote:I have not looked at a single one of your games and I never will. If you run your mouth with self meta you gonna end up being another mod kill to add to the pile.
So based on their experience with me (which you lack) they don't think I'm the best vote for reasons you allege.In post 387, Espeonage wrote:I've played with them both before as well, so what? See above.
NSG I'm inclined to believe you have time for TM *for reasons*, can you come play the game kthanxIn post 379, northsidegal wrote:if i were scum, i wouldn't have any problem having rc just give me things to say. i don't have nearly as much time as i would like right now and while it really pains me to be playing this way in front of the entire site, i don't want to be killed before i can actually impact the game.
also, i don't really care to unvote if it's not doing any damage.
It's an appeal to experience, not authority. Esp *refused* to take a look at my town games where there's clear evidence against his reason for the scumread, whereas people who played with me have it.In post 399, Cephrir wrote:Oh, no! This appeal to authority completely destroys my suspicions. I guess people who haven't played with someone before aren't capable of reading that person.