Mini 1851 : Order of the Stick Mafia - Epilogue
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Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivor
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Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivorthey (pl.)
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Counterwagons to shadow:
In post 459, MagnaofIllusion wrote: Wraith (5) - Nachomamma8, farside22, Infinity 324, Kagami, Wisdom
Nacho wisdom and kagami were on both. Don't like how only after leon's claim nacho goes to calling wraith slot town and wanting to lynch shadow, and wisdom's interactions with shadow make him look town, so eh. Have to check kagami interaction with shadow but this looks good for kraska. Kraska/shadow interactions come out to null I thinkIn post 677, MagnaofIllusion wrote: Leonshade (5) - Kagami, Nachomamma8, Wisdom, SirCakez, farside22
MOD - Fixed borked quote ...Last edited by MagnaofIllusion on Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:14 am, edited 1 time in total.-
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Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivorthey (pl.)
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Why? Why was it suspicious to you that I wanted people to vote my scumread over my nullread? Why was it suspicious that I was concerned when people voted the person with only 5 posts over someone they also scumread with more posts?In post 1278, Wisdom wrote:
Because it felt like you were leon's buddy and you wanted to wagon shaddow in order to save leonIn post 1270, Infinity 324 wrote:@wisdom Why were you so concerned about my voting leon over shadow here if you wanted them both dead?
You're not concerned about the number of killing role claims?In post 1279, Wisdom wrote:
True, an SK isnt. Leon is lyncher on town.In post 1276, Infinity 324 wrote:Fuck it, 2 town vig-type roles and an SK aren't in this game
VOTE: wisdom
What if tammy is scum who tried to cast doubt on you-
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Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivorthey (pl.)
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VOTE: kagami
I think this is best actually. Coasting off townreads is bad, interactions with shadow are meh, and there's the counterwagoning. Plus the part where he (she?) and kraska scumread each other and never voted each other. I've decided that's likely SvT, so kraska can be town based off that.
Nacho by interactions and play is scummy but wisdom by setup spec is scummy and I think one is scum because their back-and-forth feels too distant to be TvT.
Who thinks scum is outside {nacho, kraska, kagami, wisdom}?-
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Number of posts is very relevant. More content means more to analyze and a more accurate judgement. If you disagree, ok, but why was I scummy for that?In post 1281, Wisdom wrote:
Because number of posts is irrelevant; they were both equally scummy in my eyes and i had you trying to stop a push on one of them to get a push on the other.In post 1280, Infinity 324 wrote:Why? Why was it suspicious to you that I wanted people to vote my scumread over my nullread? Why was it suspicious that I was concerned when people voted the person with only 5 posts over someone they also scumread with more posts?
Ok, I buy it.In post 1282, Wisdom wrote:
Not really? I was oneshot, Leon was oneshot, tammy's is disabledIn post 1280, Infinity 324 wrote:You're not concerned about the number of killing role claims?
What if tammy is scum who tried to cast doubt on you
Given Leon's reaction to my push its practically confirmed he was lying about having scum as a target so theres your balance-
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In post 1189, Infinity 324 wrote:
I don't want to make up my mind prematurely. By attacking other people's reasons, it helps us figure out whether you're worth voting, I think.In post 1183, kraska77 wrote:Infinity can u actually make up ur mind on me? If ure going to call me scum and then boohoo anything people bring up against me, then I don't get what ure doing
What's your issue with that?In post 1267, Infinity 324 wrote:@nacho: Is it true that you almost always townread wisdom when he's town? How much confidence do you have in reading wisdom? Are there specific differences between this and other towngames of wisdom's? (Other than being less aggressive)In post 1274, Infinity 324 wrote:@kagami: What's your read on kraska
Questions I asked on the past few pagesIn post 1275, Infinity 324 wrote:
@kraska Hadn't shadow posted as much content as leon at this point?In post 769, kraska77 wrote:I don't see what's setting people off about shadow and wraith
Especially shadow he barely put out Any content to read him off of
Leon on the other hand is kind of obvious scum
pedit: that post feels pretty disingenious-
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Bleh I read this out of contextIn post 212, Kagami wrote:I have kraska as #3. Let me double check.
Back to this but still have concerns about kagami.
VOTE: nacho
Ok wisdom who do you think is scum other than nacho-
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Honestly in your position I'd be fine with it but I also get how you wouldn't be so w/eIn post 1290, Wisdom wrote:
Because you were actively trying to downplay the leon wagon with posts like "he only has 3 posts" and "im not a fan of voting for lurkers" and stuff while trying to get people on shaddow. To someone with scumreads on both, how do you imagine this looks?In post 1285, Infinity 324 wrote:If you disagree, ok, but why was I scummy for that?-
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The issue is that my top 2 scumspects, wisdom and kagami, are both voting nacho and this seems like a really bad time to bus. I would say farside, but everyone who knows her seems to townread her so idk.
I might want to reread tammy but the timing of that vig claim looked very town to me.-
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In post 1275, Infinity 324 wrote:
@kraska Hadn't shadow posted as much content as leon at this point?In post 769, kraska77 wrote:I don't see what's setting people off about shadow and wraith
Especially shadow he barely put out Any content to read him off of
Leon on the other hand is kind of obvious scum
pedit: that post feels pretty disingenious-
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http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p8511819In post 1323, kraska77 wrote:
NoIn post 1321, Infinity 324 wrote:In post 1275, Infinity 324 wrote:
@kraska Hadn't shadow posted as much content as leon at this point?In post 769, kraska77 wrote:I don't see what's setting people off about shadow and wraith
Especially shadow he barely put out Any content to read him off of
Leon on the other hand is kind of obvious scum
pedit: that post feels pretty disingenious
and up
vs.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p8515368
and up
They're pretty close.-
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In post 1267, Infinity 324 wrote:@nacho: Is it true that you almost always townread wisdom when he's town? How much confidence do you have in reading wisdom? Are there specific differences between this and other towngames of wisdom's? (Other than being less aggressive)-
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Why was it worse?In post 1330, Nachomamma8 wrote:
No, I'm saying I voted Leon over shadow because Leon's catch up was worse.In post 1328, Infinity 324 wrote:@nacho Are you saying you voted leon just because shadow had more content? Because if so that's incredibly shallow, especially since at least imo shadow's catchup was largely fluff/empty questions.-
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The thing is, your scumread on wisdom is based on meta p much so I can't really agree or argue with your reasoning there. What I do know is that wisdom's interactions with shadow looks a whole lot less like SvS than yours do.In post 1341, Nachomamma8 wrote:
I think that town!wisdom is generally a universal townread; I don't really remember a lot of times offhand where Wisdom was scumread more than not and I was the lone person defending him. I have decent confidence in reading Wisdom when I'm scumreading him; I've already laid out why he's scum here as opposed to be town; why don't you start there?In post 1331, Infinity 324 wrote:In post 1267, Infinity 324 wrote:@nacho: Is it true that you almost always townread wisdom when he's town? How much confidence do you have in reading wisdom? Are there specific differences between this and other towngames of wisdom's? (Other than being less aggressive)
But the more this interaction goes on the more confident I am that it's SvT, so if nacho flips town I'd look hard at wisdom.-
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Because you actually scum this timeIn post 1353, Nachomamma8 wrote:What I don't understand about your push on me is that your apology seemed legitimate; you seemed like you honestly regretted tunneling the shit out of me in two games in a row for two straight games, and, in this game, for just a couple blessed moments you were townreading me and apparently not falling into old habits and then suddenly you're pushing the shit out me all over again? Why?-
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Probably.In post 1360, Nachomamma8 wrote:
When I flip town, will you vote Wisdom tomorrow?In post 1355, Infinity 324 wrote:
Because you actually scum this timeIn post 1353, Nachomamma8 wrote:What I don't understand about your push on me is that your apology seemed legitimate; you seemed like you honestly regretted tunneling the shit out of me in two games in a row for two straight games, and, in this game, for just a couple blessed moments you were townreading me and apparently not falling into old habits and then suddenly you're pushing the shit out me all over again? Why?-
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Imo, looking for SvT and TvT interactions is one of the most reliable ways to scumhunt. It's not that you're confident, more like I would expect a TvT interaction to be more intense and have more direct engagement if you know what I'm saying. Anyway, my gut is usually reliable on these things.In post 1363, Nachomamma8 wrote:
"SvT" and "TvT" interactions don't exist.In post 1352, Infinity 324 wrote:But the more this interaction goes on the more confident I am that it's SvT, so if nacho flips town I'd look hard at wisdom.
People can get very confident about things and be wrong. What you should be doing is analyzing the merit of each side; when I flip town, your approach should be much less "hmmm, I guess I was wrong on Wisdom because Nacho wassuperconfident" and more "oh. I guess Nacho had a point! I guess that Wisdom suddenly believing that Leon is a lyncher on town despite not having any reason to do so at all IS pretty sketchy!"
Wrt the lyncher on town vs scum thing, I think wisdom thinks leon is fake and isn't bothering to explain it.-
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I'll move away from it when it stops being reliable Multiple times before I've correctly called an interaction as SvT but dismissed that feeling because I individually townread the players involved. Imo a hard thing for any scum to do is to continue an intense extended interaction--when interactions feel off like this one does it's hard to pinpoint which player is making it feel like that but there's usually scum there. Maybe nothing I'm saying is making any sense but bottom line is in my experience my gut is good at finding SvT interactions.In post 1382, Nachomamma8 wrote:
It's one of my pet peeves because of how unreliable it is. It's not based on anything at all; what it looks like when people clash is based on personality far more often than alignment and how they react is typically far more indicative of an individual's alignment than it is for their interaction as a whole. I know that I'm not changing your mind on this here and now, but I hope one day that you move away from it.In post 1380, Infinity 324 wrote:Imo, looking for SvT and TvT interactions is one of the most reliable ways to scumhunt. It's not that you're confident, more like I would expect a TvT interaction to be more intense and have more direct engagement if you know what I'm saying. Anyway, my gut is usually reliable on these things.
Wrt the lyncher on town vs scum thing, I think wisdom thinks leon is fake and isn't bothering to explain it.
If Wisdom was just gutreading Leon as fake, I think he'd be open with the fact that it was a gut read. I think that pretending like he has reasons for it is indicative of scum.-
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Because I want to see if your thought process lines up.In post 1383, Nachomamma8 wrote:
Why?In post 1377, Infinity 324 wrote:I scumread shadow's catchup because most of his questions and points, even though they may have been good points, didn't seem to help him scumhunt and looked like busy work. But your answer is fair.
What's your read on me nacho?-
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I find at least for me it wears me out quickly, and energy is my most important asset as scum.In post 1395, Wisdom wrote:
I've never found it hard to continue an intense extended interaction; instead, it's helpful in getting me townreadIn post 1393, Infinity 324 wrote:Imo a hard thing for any scum to do is to continue an intense extended interaction-
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From what I've gathered of wisdom's personality, it makes perfect senseIn post 1391, Nachomamma8 wrote:this isn't your response as town.
this isn't anyone's response as town.-
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No, but I find it to be quite a strong towntell. I can quote some examples if you like.In post 1407, Tammy wrote:
Do you have something better than this?In post 1244, Infinity 324 wrote:
He's scumhunting but not trying to look like he's scumhunting.In post 1238, Tammy wrote:I don't know why people have a town read on cakes, so I'd love it if someone explained it to me. Preferably something better than he's town.
QFT, only reason I didn't make a big deal out of it myself is because I personally gathered enough from d1. But clearly not everyone did.In post 1410, Tammy wrote:
I hate day ones that are cut short when people are still in information gathering stage because someone decides it needs to end. If it would have hit scum, I'd bite my tongue but still be annoyed about it.In post 1252, Kagami wrote:I'm here. Agree Nacho is scum, was waiting for him to say something.
Tammy, even if MoI told me "GI is Town. After writing that, I rolled a d4 and switched the alignment only if I rolled a 4," I would have hammered GI.
Will look into this.In post 1418, Tammy wrote:Their interactions yesterday felt weird.
I think I'm comfortable just saying tammy is town because she is.-
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You're the first one to say this I believe. Why? I'm intrigued because I townread a lot of people and not her.In post 1432, Tammy wrote:I'm also concerned about farside.-
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Then who is nacho's buddy?In post 1450, Kagami wrote:While it would be nice in some regards, I still doubt farside is scum.-
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Ugh this is the part where I start doubting my read
The question is whether it's a legit scum narrative for scum nacho to lay low-ish until he's under pressure and then start putting in lots of genuine-looking and thoughttful analysis. I don't know nacho that well, but I'm leaning towards that makes sense as a narrative.
As for the points themselves, they're a lot better than what I was seeing before. I'll look into them in a little bit.-
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Knew I was gonna get shit from you for saying that, but I'm probably not changing my vote. I feel bad for nacho that were BoPing the fuck out of him, but that's how it goes.In post 1461, Wisdom wrote:
predictableIn post 1459, Infinity 324 wrote:Ugh this is the part where I start doubting my read-
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Good point.In post 1466, Wisdom wrote:I like this vote at this point of time
She could as easily vote wraith or leon but didnt-
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Good enough for me to keep my vote.In post 1473, Tammy wrote:
He has done it before. His laying low at the moment is not alignment relevant though, and he's also just as likely to not do much for a period of time and then have spurts of analysis as town.In post 1459, Infinity 324 wrote:Ugh this is the part where I start doubting my read
The question is whether it's a legit scum narrative for scum nacho to lay low-ish until he's under pressure and then start putting in lots of genuine-looking and thoughttful analysis. I don't know nacho that well, but I'm leaning towards that makes sense as a narrative.
As for the points themselves, they're a lot better than what I was seeing before. I'll look into them in a little bit.-
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Hold the presses, wisdom backed out of a tunnel!
Need to reread farside and cakez, but so far I don't like farside's reaction to pressure. But my vote stays for now for reasons previously stated.
Also still need to respond to nacho's points on wisdom (I think some of those are worth responding to, wisdom)-
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Infinity 324 they (pl.)Survivor
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VOTE: farside
Farside/cakez interactions: Farside opens by scumreading cakez when shadow was very bussable. There are reasons to do that as scumbuddies though and I've seen farside bus a lot as scum. Then she moves him to null. Also she chainsaws him against me...and he tries repeatedly to engage with her and she blows him off a lot. Then she hard townreads him...Makes sense as scumbuddy interactions but I need to look into more. Maybe after farside flips scum.
@farside Can you go through cakez's ISO and explain your read on him at each stage and why
Other stuff in her ISO: we know her scumreads in 563 are all non-mafia. Also she barely mentions nacho at all until d2 when she votes him...and she doesn't mention wisdom except to soft-defend him against cakez's meta accusation, until d2. 1546 is a good point and I didn't like wisdom's response, not sure if farside would being that up on her scumbuddy but definitely something to look at if she's somehow town. Anyway I think farside/nacho is more likely than farside/wis but there is some possibility of a last minute mad bus attempt.
If anyone still think she's town by the way, look at 563 and see if she's trying to change her approach. She's less aggressive now but still not engaging and trying to solve people. Also she had shadow as null and didn't engage with him, classic scumbuddy interaction. Then she townreads him with pre-flip association with bulba...and never goes back to that read after bulba flips town.
Anyway there's a lot in farside's ISO in terms of interactions and there's more to go into but that's it for now.
Still think wisdom/nacho is S/T because I would very much expect them to start engaging and working together after wisdom's turnaround. Not sure if nacho has posted since then so it might just be wisdom scum. I would say it's unlikely for farside to be bussing here but I know that's not true and she can bus a lot. Need to check how early she was on the nacho wagon today.-
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Tbh I kinda want to lynch farside now and then figure shit out later. I'd be surprised if she's town because of her reaction to pressure, interactions with shadow, general approach to the game after she said she'd try to improve, plus I remember her being clearly town as town both times I played with her before.-
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How would the game continue with all 3 scum eliminated, assuming that you leave the game when xykon dies, and that xykon is groupscum?In post 1629, Leonshade wrote:
The Magna quote everyone keeps bringing up, it's about the entire game ending N1.In post 1627, Infinity 324 wrote:Why is wisdom town to you? What do you think about thing about the scumteam being eliminated by n1?-
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And he didn't trust the mod to know what is and isn't pro-town enough?In post 1615, Wisdom wrote:my assumption is he didnt realize how pro-town a lyncher on scum claim is and he thought he had to make it more town
My theory is that he got 2 fakeclaims, 1 town, and 1 pro-town lyncher.-
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Yeah that makes the most sense actually.In post 1641, Kagami wrote:Maybe a lyncher on town constitutes a threat to town; then everything makes sense.
Anyway we know there's something weird going on with leon and he needs to die before endgame.-
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To explain some of his scummier actions and because it might be more believable in some way with the setup.In post 1645, Wisdom wrote:
and why didnt he just claim the town one?In post 1640, Infinity 324 wrote:My theory is that he got 2 fakeclaims, 1 town, and 1 pro-town lyncher.-
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Ok so moving on...can we get more votes on farside?In post 1647, Infinity 324 wrote:Anyway we know there's something weird going on with leon and he needs to die before endgame.-
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What do you think of this reasoning?In post 612, Infinity 324 wrote:Shadow, your question to me was already addressed and answered.
I'm ok with shadow votes. His questions don't seem to be written in an attempt to gamesolve, they're more trying to look busy and defending himself. And to add on to the list of hypocritical things I've said this game, I don't really like shadow taking seriously tammy not moving her vote. To be fair, this time tammy clearly said that it was for fun. It just looks like an attempt to look busy.
Ok I've convinced myself
VOTE: shadow
I'm not a fan of voting someone with 3 posts on page 25, though I will check again what those posts are...
Can you explain your read on cakez throughout the game, including when and why you dropped your scumread on him and what your read on him is now?-
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Then let it goIn post 1703, Wisdom wrote:im not concerned