Large Normal 229 | Manatee's Musical Mafia | Game Over

[Town looter]

Why did i join a 20+ game. Omg.

This.

I can't wait until I wake up to 20 pages to read :/

VOTE: SJ
OMGUS

[Town looter]

Was thinking if your alignment in this game motivated you to read that game.
It seems like you tried to grasp their characteristics.

So light SR on SJ?

[Town looter]

Oh yeah, derp.

This game is hilarious, I have no fucking idea what to do, the number of people is overwhelming. Good to have some familiar faces though. Might be able to get a solid read for a change...

[Town looter]

Given the size of this group, how do you feel about eliminating low-activity slots?

Do you agree with Norwegian that vigs should shoot early?

Unless there is good evidence of lurking, no. Mis-elimming an active slot will generally tell us more than a mis-elim on an inactive slot. This obviously only applies to early game, activity will be a useful source of information later in the game because of how easy it is to fly below the radar.

I've never played a setup with a vig, and haven't really thought about it. So not sure, probably defer to other's better judgement on this.

[Town looter]

Unless there is good evidence of lurking, no. Mis-elimming an active slot will generally tell us more than a mis-elim on an inactive slot. This obviously only applies to early game, activity will be a useful source of information later in the game because of how easy it is to fly below the radar.

Disagree low activity players are better for scum to have around.

Elimming a high activity slot just for info is not a good idea

That's really not what I said though, was it...

[Town looter]

@Mod It should be 11 to lynch, I'm voting for Bell while Glitch is not, and superbowl is voting for Glitch.

This is my first game out of the newbie forum. Question: "The townvmafia numbers are confirmed to be 16v5," so this is definitely two factions? No worrying about more than one mafia or a serial killer?

Yes there are exactly 16 town, and exactly 5 mafia of one faction.

Full and odd-night vigilantes should almost always be shooting night 1. X-shot is pretty situational.

superbowl's two recent posts ping.

I might be chasing at shadows, but how do you know there is only one faction? The information that I can see specifies 5 mafia. Does that specifically exclude a group of 2 and a group of 3?

[Town looter]

Was thinking if your alignment in this game motivated you to read that game.
It seems like you tried to grasp their characteristics.

So light SR on SJ?

This pings me. Enough for a serious vote.
Its like town looter is hoping for it to be a SR.

TownLooter

Fair enough. I wasn't, but as good a vote as any right now. I was mostly trying to get out of RVS because I am not really a fan of the phase.

Thinking Reaver is excited town. Or not a newb.

From my experience with her, I would suggest the former.

yes. Mafia is mad watered down and town gets fed info.

Cool cool cool.

[Town looter]

UNVOTE: SJ

Heading out, will make a semi-serious vote when I get home.

[Town looter]

VOTE: Marshall

I'd rather vote Fwesnid, but both are in my low info scum pool.

[Town looter]

For me it's because I threw a tiny amount of shade at superbowl as a bit of a reaction test and got two small nibbles.

[Town looter]

I am mostly caught up, but skimmed a lot...

Spoiler: Fluff

here's my conclusion. Anime avatars are horrible.

+1

I like jokes. Jokes are very funny.

you know what I like? lynching LQ on d1.

Oooh, yes, LQ schooled me good in the game I played with them.

Ah yes, the scum distancing on pg 5 of a large game strat.

Ya this Marshall wagon sucks

use your words. It sucks b/c ?????

This argument between you two feels forced af

Is this scum playing both ends in the middle? He's basically accusing norway and super of scum theatre but was careful not to outright say that. Am I the only one that got this impression?

I agree with these trains of thought.

town looter is a good wagon.

Why do you say that?

Anyway let's stop talking about that. It will just waste time.
I'm reconsidering Stan based on NPOM's statement on them so i'll go back here for now. VOTE: Bell

In addition to aforementioned discussion on Norwegian's reactions, he also put a vote on someone who has gone VLA. That doesn't seem very productive in a large game.
VOTE: Norwegian

[Town looter]

For me it's because I threw a tiny amount of shade at superbowl as a bit of a reaction test and got two small nibbles.

Is this what you're talking about when you said you threw a tiny bit of shade at superbowl? How is this throwing a tiny bit of shade? This is the only time you've addressed SB in the game:

Unless there is good evidence of lurking, no. Mis-elimming an active slot will generally tell us more than a mis-elim on an inactive slot. This obviously only applies to early game, activity will be a useful source of information later in the game because of how easy it is to fly below the radar.

Disagree low activity players are better for scum to have around.

Elimming a high activity slot just for info is not a good idea

That's really not what I said though, was it...

Can you please clarify: where did you throw a tiny bit of shade on SB, and where was MM's response to that which made you decide to vote for him? Who was the other person who took your "bait?" This seems like a really weak argument worthy of voting for because I don't see anything indicating that you actually threw shade at SB and especially don't see anywhere where MM gave a reaction to that. And yet somehow MM gave enough reaction to vote for him?

Yeah, I am not going to pretend it is in anyway a strong or high accuracy read. Basically my thought process was "Superbowl misrepped me slightly, i'll call him out on it and see what happens with other responses to the situation". Both MM and Fwesnid included negative responses to Superbowl after that. Fwesnid's was probably more direct (hence a slightly stronger read), but MM was the one who had a wagon so I jumped on that. It was a shit case, but pretty sure 99.9% of cases in the first 10 pages of a large are going to be.

FWIW updated reads: MM is pretty null leaning town - null because I am skimming and haven't thought too deeply about what they have been saying nor the arguments they have been making in other discussions (I am a slow ponderous thinker, mostly) but bit of a town feel from activity alone. Fwesnid I have actually flipped based on 384, and have a reasonably strong town read on them.

Hopefully that answers MM's question as well.

On the Nero/Norwegian/NPOM/et. al. front I am actually rather confused. I am reading pretty good points from both sides, but haven't made full sense of it yet.

UNVOTE: Norwegian while I have another read. I remember something pinging along the way from first read.

[Town looter]

This whole argument between Nero, NoPower and Norwee on pages 12-14 will be very interesting to look at when one of them flips, but for now, it's only giving me a headache lol

+1.

[Town looter]

Bleh, just as I was starting to get a gut scum feeling about Superbowl (SB), MM throws a proper case together and is going to make it look like I am sheeping (for the 2nd or 3rd time in this game ).

My read started after re-reading the Stanley interaction. I think Scum!SB genuinely thinks it's a good case that he can latch onto and look like he is scumhunting. And it kind of is, except for the fact that there absolutely could be a SvT interaction that "feels" forced (I take Stanley's response as a throw-away gut feeling after reading - I have made similar statements): Scum could be doing the forcing, which gives the conversation a forced feel overall. Given I have a mild town read on Stan, I am willing to trust his gut in this.

Then there is the reluctance to respond openly, which could be scum motivated as the information may not exist.

And then the response to mis-quoting in 308; later you say you were going to respond, but your initial response doesn't really add up. I think a more natural town response would be to respond to 235, probably in a slightly flustered way given you mis-posted.

All very minor things, but they all add up.

I also am getting town vibes from Nero (and NoPowerOverMe, which will matter in a second). Trusting these vibes puts a question mark over Glitch. And where are you in Glitch's reads? Right where a scum partner would be. I know it is absurd looking for associations prior to a single flip. But like I say, the little things are adding up.

Spoiler:

The difference in a 4 vote wagon and a 5 vote wagon in this game is literally so miniscule that it makes no difference, especially when one of those votes is Lapsa. The MM wagon will continue to die down until MM comes back on and responds to the investigation kicked off by CSF and reminded by me in my post above. If his response is shitty then I'm all for building a serious wagon then. But let's not pretend that 3 votes + Lapsa is a remarkable wagon opportunity to pass up. It's not.

I love a good, strong wagon. The MM wagon is not one as it stands and my vote remains more useful on you.

So far today I'll be cool with serious wagons forming on Nero, MM depending on response, or Norway. I won't be voting Superbowl or NPOM as they are my highest TRs, CSF is almost up to that same peak tier.

Bell why does Nero feel townie to you?
Nero, why are you hesitant to accept the town block invitation?
Popopo, have you not shown up yet because of the vote tag rule?

VOTE: Superbowl

[Town looter]

Seriously dudes, STFU...

[Town looter]

I mean that in the nicest possible way. But you guys are bickering like children, and given it's a large with lots of inactivity, we don't want to make it worse because people have to wade thru pages of your guys shit.

[Town looter]

I read Nero and Bell as strong town.

I want to town read Glitch, but I'm lazy and for some reason when I read his posts, my eyes start to glaze over. I'll give him light town points and hope someone else points out if he's scummy.

72, Townlooter, Cat Scratch, and superbowl are all light town reads as well.

I expect more people to read 72 as scum the more he posts, but I went through a newbie game where he was miseliminated, and tends to be all over the place.

Random question, but do you feel like you have learned and improved since our last foray together? I feel like you have, so follow up question is what are your new, er, skills (for lack of a better term/phrase)?

[Town looter]

*snip*
yeah you're going to have to bring concrete examples, I have read his ISO many times

I think you’re town.
*snip*

Yep, I agree, assuming she maintains similar meta between alts

[Town looter]

Wondering why looter voted Norway then advocated nero to lay off him.

Because I didn't think the Nero/Norwegian discussion was in anyway helpful for the game.

You think Nero getting under Norwegian's skin (and vice versa) was going to lead to some AI responses?

[Town looter]

Random question, but do you feel like you have learned and improved since our last foray together? I feel like you have, so follow up question is what are your new, er, skills (for lack of a better term/phrase)?

The game ended two days ago. Is there something you think I should have learned?

Dead chat didn't like me and thought I was scum. But I wasn't scum and I managed to survive to the end and get both the mafia members.

I guess 'you can suck and still win' is a lesson.

Eh, I am fairly sure you didn't suck in that game, given your reads were good and you won the game for town in GLo. If anyone fits the suck criteria it'd be myself and luncheon given the quality of our reads.

Also: sorry for the quickhammer, Townlooter. I forgive all the bad words you said when you read that and most of the bad things you thought.

No worries, and thanks.

[Town looter]

Random question, but do you feel like you have learned and improved since our last foray together? I feel like you have, so follow up question is what are your new, er, skills (for lack of a better term/phrase)?

The game ended two days ago. Is there something you think I should have learned?

Dead chat didn't like me and thought I was scum. But I wasn't scum and I managed to survive to the end and get both the mafia members.

I guess 'you can suck and still win' is a lesson.

Oh and I meant learned/improved as a result of our game.

[Town looter]

Fwesnid I have actually flipped based on 384, and have a reasonably strong town read on them.

What is it about 384 makes you have a reasonably strong TR? 384 seems fluffy and null to me.

Mostly because he had no reason to go back and call himself out about being my second nibble. I also feel like his response to my shitty case, seems genuine.

Bleh, just as I was starting to get a gut scum feeling about Superbowl (SB), MM throws a proper case together and is going to make it look like I am sheeping (for the 2nd or 3rd time in this game ).

My read started after re-reading the Stanley interaction. I think Scum!SB genuinely thinks it's a good case that he can latch onto and look like he is scumhunting. And it kind of is, except for the fact that there absolutely could be a SvT interaction that "feels" forced (I take Stanley's response as a throw-away gut feeling after reading - I have made similar statements): Scum could be doing the forcing, which gives the conversation a forced feel overall. Given I have a mild town read on Stan, I am willing to trust his gut in this.

Then there is the reluctance to respond openly, which could be scum motivated as the information may not exist.

And then the response to mis-quoting in 308; later you say you were going to respond, but your initial response doesn't really add up. I think a more natural town response would be to respond to 235, probably in a slightly flustered way given you mis-posted.

All very minor things, but they all add up.

I also am getting town vibes from Nero (and NoPowerOverMe, which will matter in a second). Trusting these vibes puts a question mark over Glitch. And where are you in Glitch's reads? Right where a scum partner would be. I know it is absurd looking for associations prior to a single flip. But like I say, the little things are adding up.

Spoiler:

The difference in a 4 vote wagon and a 5 vote wagon in this game is literally so miniscule that it makes no difference, especially when one of those votes is Lapsa. The MM wagon will continue to die down until MM comes back on and responds to the investigation kicked off by CSF and reminded by me in my post above. If his response is shitty then I'm all for building a serious wagon then. But let's not pretend that 3 votes + Lapsa is a remarkable wagon opportunity to pass up. It's not.

I love a good, strong wagon. The MM wagon is not one as it stands and my vote remains more useful on you.

So far today I'll be cool with serious wagons forming on Nero, MM depending on response, or Norway. I won't be voting Superbowl or NPOM as they are my highest TRs, CSF is almost up to that same peak tier.

Bell why does Nero feel townie to you?
Nero, why are you hesitant to accept the town block invitation?
Popopo, have you not shown up yet because of the vote tag rule?

VOTE: Superbowl

This feels like such a good, genuine effort but it's just really off. I get where you're coming from, and if you want to SR me for my own actions that's fine and we can totally talk about it, but your SR of me because of my TR on your top SR is a very weak association argument, and from your post, you know that. Your entire argument is a stretch and instead of making a self-admittedly weak case, I think it would be best to try and push elsewhere with stronger reasoning.

FTR when I play scum I bus the hell out of my scumbuddies. I wouldn't say if I were scum this game, but you can check out Mini 2149 where I played scum with popopo, mavsfan, and Dunnstral and I ripped into all of them consistently throughout the game. If I had more games to show you this I would but currently I don't have any other completed scum games of mine online to reference.

Yeah, any SR on you I have is wafer thin - It's more a product of my currently favoured Town!Nero scenario. I don't really get your argument against him - I see a fairly brash, antagonistic type trying to build pressure on people. Could be full of shit, but at this stage feels town to me. I also liked his logic more in the whole Stanley/Superbowl/Norwegian/Nero thing.

[Town looter]

howdy

hmmmmm

Yeeeeaaaah... if we are going to eliminate an inactive slot i'm gonna go ahead as say it should be you.

[Town looter]

and*

[Town looter]

Hah, awesome page top...

[Town looter]

Ahh, shitposting, I knew something was missing.

[Town looter]

It’s acknowledging 2 worlds. 1 where i’m scum and town!Neros push was kinda awkward

he doesn't seem to hold this opinion He's accusing me of potentially bussing you

. So either he's scum that knows you'll flip scum and is pre emptively setting up an argument for later on or knows that this is TvT and is setting up a chain lynch.

Yeah I am not seeing it that way at all.

That being said, his SR on NorwegianEE

does

need to be explained.

[Town looter]

how many scum is in

LicketyQuickety
popopopopopopo
ralph217
Ganelon
NorwegianboyEE
Glitch
Lapsa

?

This is probs town

Why?

[Town looter]

ok why am i not, looter?

I am asking about how the post translates to a read, not why you are or aren't town. I've mentioned my read on you previously.

[Town looter]

Recent Nero/Glitch/Norwegian dialog is making me think Nero might be trying to pull off some dominant scum strategy here. There's a complete lack of trying to see it from the other person's point of view, and bludgeoning on very bullishly. I was TRing, but not so sure now.

Glitch is null leaning town now because I can see where they are coming from and I don't actually think their position is unreasonable (in terms of holding SR on Nero and Norwegian, not his original SR of Nero). But Glitch/Nero is hard for me because I like Glitch's approach better, and therefore I am carrying bias.

Norwegian is feeling scummy though. My original read and vote on them was mostly around the Bell vote. Like others I see that as scum not wanting to park their vote, but not having anything strong to work with and therefore coming out with a rather awkward vote on a pretty null slot.

I still like my vote on Superbowl, but would move to NorwegianEE as well.

[Town looter]

Er, didn't finish my Norwegian paragraph...

Norwegian is feeling scummy though. My original read and vote on them was mostly around the Bell vote. Like others I see that as scum not wanting to park their vote, but not having anything strong to work with and therefore coming out with a rather awkward vote on a pretty null slot. But I also think recent posts are fairly week. They seem to be riding Neros coat tails quite hard, while not actually putting forth much useful content - rather they keep reverting back to things like the vig shooting night one thing (I am not disagreeing with Norwegian here, more saying that they are leaning on a technical, and therefore easy, subject matter).

[Town looter]

It has to be 2 vigilante setup. I see no other way around it.

Rolefishing much?

Fos lapsa

I read that as a shitpost, but I am comfortable with your outcome, if not reasoning.

[Town looter]

^ “you’re being slow this game(probably referring to only commenting on this awhile after lapsa wrote his comment), but the game isn’t as fast. Why is it role fishing? I don’t like you”-Ralph.

Could also be "why is he fishing?"

Either way, Ralph can you tell us a bit about yourself?

Your posts are hard to read and don't provide a lot of detail or context. This isn't going to help us if you are town so I recommend you take a bit more care with your posts and try to explain yourself.

That is assuming you aren't a troll account, which to be fair I am like 80% sure you are.

[Town looter]

I can't tell if I'm scumreading Ralph or if I'm just annoyed that I need someone to translate his posts for me to understand them.

I feel like you are flying below the radar right now. Feel like throwing some content into the mix?

[Town looter]

Urgh, you basterds are going to make me read glitches walls again aren’t you...

[Town looter]

Urgh, you basterds are going to make me read glitches walls again aren’t you...

you don't

have

to. What makes you feel like you need to reread him just b/c there's a wagon on him?

Because this game needs 11 to eliminate. That's a lotta people. So rather than rely on my fairly light read on Glitch, I want to see if I can see what you guys are seeing, and potentially contribute to the wagon/pressure. Or maybe confirm my read and argue against the wagon.

Alternative is sitting on my TR and be one of the multitude who are not doing a lot in the background (lurkers, VLA'rs, folks with stronger SRs elsewhere, etc.).

The difference, I think, between the former and the latter is the latter is more likely to result in a mis-elimination.

[Town looter]

Blergh, I am still not seeing it (it being Scum!Glitch).

Only thing I picked up from a quick ISO (low effort for sure, I had a good dose of CBF) is that his case on Nero had a pretty shitty start and evolved into OMGUS. While at the same time, maintaining a pretty logical argument about maintaining contrasting SRs on Nero and Norwegian.

Still null for me.

Hiraki, keen to hear where you finally land on Glitch once you have fully caught up. BoP coming your way buddy.

[Town looter]

superbowl9 (5): stan1ey, 72offsuit, Marshmallow, Town looter, Fwesnid

One of these is not like the other. Town Looter, what are you doing on this wagon? Don't tell me it's because stanley, 72, or Mashmellow offered compelling arguments.

Bleh, just as I was starting to get a gut scum feeling about Superbowl (SB), MM throws a proper case together and is going to make it look like I am sheeping (for the 2nd or 3rd time in this game ).

My read started after re-reading the Stanley interaction. I think Scum!SB genuinely thinks it's a good case that he can latch onto and look like he is scumhunting. And it kind of is, except for the fact that there absolutely could be a SvT interaction that "feels" forced (I take Stanley's response as a throw-away gut feeling after reading - I have made similar statements): Scum could be doing the forcing, which gives the conversation a forced feel overall. Given I have a mild town read on Stan, I am willing to trust his gut in this.

Then there is the reluctance to respond openly, which could be scum motivated as the information may not exist.

And then the response to mis-quoting in 308; later you say you were going to respond, but your initial response doesn't really add up. I think a more natural town response would be to respond to 235, probably in a slightly flustered way given you mis-posted.

All very minor things, but they all add up.

I also am getting town vibes from Nero (and NoPowerOverMe, which will matter in a second). Trusting these vibes puts a question mark over Glitch. And where are you in Glitch's reads? Right where a scum partner would be. I know it is absurd looking for associations prior to a single flip. But like I say, the little things are adding up.

Spoiler:

The difference in a 4 vote wagon and a 5 vote wagon in this game is literally so miniscule that it makes no difference, especially when one of those votes is Lapsa. The MM wagon will continue to die down until MM comes back on and responds to the investigation kicked off by CSF and reminded by me in my post above. If his response is shitty then I'm all for building a serious wagon then. But let's not pretend that 3 votes + Lapsa is a remarkable wagon opportunity to pass up. It's not.

I love a good, strong wagon. The MM wagon is not one as it stands and my vote remains more useful on you.

So far today I'll be cool with serious wagons forming on Nero, MM depending on response, or Norway. I won't be voting Superbowl or NPOM as they are my highest TRs, CSF is almost up to that same peak tier.

Bell why does Nero feel townie to you?
Nero, why are you hesitant to accept the town block invitation?
Popopo, have you not shown up yet because of the vote tag rule?

VOTE: Superbowl

[Town looter]

so i cant just say fwensid is scum since omgus . but other wise i wouldn't be here so i think he is expreee to lynch me . why scummy gibberish fwesnid?

I find the most annoying or stupid person in the game is always on my side, so I'll assume you're townie.

You've been absent, I hope it's not because you have rolled scum and don't know what to post?

Why are you scum reading me?

[Town looter]

so i cant just say fwensid is scum since omgus . but other wise i wouldn't be here so i think he is expreee to lynch me . why scummy gibberish fwesnid?

I find the most annoying or stupid person in the game is always on my side, so I'll assume you're townie.

You've been absent, I hope it's not because you have rolled scum and don't know what to post?

Why are you scum reading me?

I'm not.

Or, I wasn't until you quoted a random post, missed the part where I told the person I was voting for that I'd town read you, and decided I scum reading you. That does strike me as overly defensive.

Huh, I guess you weren't, interesting.

I quickly read the posts below as you SRing me by implication, but revisiting I can see how I got that wrong.

Spoiler:

superbowl9 (5): stan1ey, 72offsuit, Marshmallow, Town looter, Fwesnid

One of these is not like the other. Town Looter, what are you doing on this wagon? Don't tell me it's because stanley, 72, or Mashmellow offered compelling arguments.

What’s wrong with the super wagon, SJ? I think the wagon composition is townish. Do you think Super Bowl is towny?

I do. And I think he's a solid townie as well. Not super but middle of the road when it comes to pushing the game. Which means I don't like that people are trying to eliminate him over weaker players.

What I'm asking myself is 'did scum start this wagon, or did scum see it rolling and hop on?'

VOTE: 72ofsuit

72, is Looter your scum buddy? I was town reading him earlier and I'd like your insight.

[Town looter]

I find the most annoying or stupid person in the game is always on my side, so I'll assume you're townie.

The wo

r

d dow

e

l was used in Middle English; it appears in Wycliffe's Bible translation (circa 1382-1395) in a list of the parts of a wheel: "...and the spokis, and dowlis of tho wheelis..." Cognates with other Germanic languages suggest that the word is much older (deu

ve

l in Dutch, Dübel in Ge

r

man).

Wooden dowels have been used

i

n manufacturing and woodworking for many centurie

s

. One of the e

a

rliest documented uses of

w

ood

e

n dowel

s

was in Japanese shrines in AD 690, which were c

o

nstructed using only wood, wooden dowels and pegs, and interlocking joints. Around AD 1000, Leif Erikson sailed across the North Atlantic in a ship that was largely constructed of overlapping planks held together by wooden dowels and iron nails. The wooden dowels did not rust and thus were

m

ore r

e

liable than iron for long expeditions.

Found it. Ten out of ten breadcrumbing.

Ok, you won me over SJ, this post is a delight.

I still kinda maybe think you are scum, but the post is delightful.

[Town looter]

Hiraki, keen to hear where you finally land on Glitch once you have fully caught up. BoP coming your way buddy.

What is a BoP? I intend to vote him for reasons that have nothing to do with what is currently being said. Don't know if need to elaborate on them.

Burden of proficiency. Your approach has a degree of confidence/arrogance to it, so it's only fair you lead us poorly misinformed townies to victory with your perfectly on point reads.

[Town looter]

Manatee's VC should read 10, Glitch is at L-1.

There are 9 names listed in the VCA and he missed Almost50's vote in 1022

Spoiler:

Unvote, Vote: Glitch

Glitch v Superbowl, let's see what happens.

VOTE: Glitch

I came in today with the intent to read. However, I manage d to talk myself out of it. I am willing to sheep someone provided I know them well. OBVIOUSLY the wagon on Glitch is the one with ALL the people I "know well".

VOTE: Glitch

That was easy.

Looks like we're consolidating.

VOTE: Glitch

VOTE: Glitch
I want to know what he will do when pressured.

L-2

are u gonna let him claim?

I also want a claim before any hammer were to happen.
Hammering before that is a scumclaim.
UNVOTE:

Just to put this back up because I want to see a claim and jumping off at L-2 to avoid a quickhammer (which should just show scum anyways)

VOTE: Glitch

L-2

Honestly, my impulse control isn't too good today. I'm going to vote now so I don't give into temptation.

VOTE: glitch

That's L-1.

See, I am not quickhammering today. I am good.

[Town looter]

The spoiler shows votes since last VC on page 34, where there were four votes: Nero, Norwey, Bell and CSF

[Town looter]

Anyone who votes Glitch right now is scum-claiming, there is intent from Laspa so we are awaiting a claim and set of reads.

Anyone who votes right now is scum-claiming.

Might sound dramatic, but I have seen a annoying large amount of quickhammers in recent games.

[Town looter]

Holy annoying repeated sentences batman...

[Town looter]

Jeez, E-1 really killed the flow...

[Town looter]

Spoiler:

Yes there are exactly 16 town, and exactly 5 mafia of one faction.

Full and odd-night vigilantes should almost always be shooting night 1. X-shot is pretty situational.

superbowl's two recent posts ping.

Actually answering my question. Thanks!

Why do the posts 'ping?' That's pretty ambiguous.

They seemed unnatural to me.

@Mod It should be 11 to lynch, I'm voting for Bell while Glitch is not, and superbowl is voting for Glitch.

This is my first game out of the newbie forum. Question: "The townvmafia numbers are confirmed to be 16v5," so this is definitely two factions? No worrying about more than one mafia or a serial killer?

Yes there are exactly 16 town, and exactly 5 mafia of one faction.

Full and odd-night vigilantes should almost always be shooting night 1. X-shot is pretty situational.

superbowl's two recent posts ping.

I might be chasing at shadows, but how do you know there is only one faction? The information that I can see specifies 5 mafia. Does that specifically exclude a group of 2 and a group of 3?

This is a weird question if you've read the op.
It states a 16v5 not a 16v3v2.

For me it's because I threw a tiny amount of shade at superbowl as a bit of a reaction test and got two small nibbles.

And it's inherently scummy to agree with you because...?
Maybe I'm missing something but that's how I interpret it.

I'm currently town on both Nero and Norway, since their play reminds me of their towngames. NPOM is prob town too, but shouldn't be listened to

My top townread is catscratch since this is voicing what I was thinking while reading though wasn't very confident on.
I'm also just liking their posting in general, specifically the questions she chooses to ask.


@Glitch I was the other person who took the 'bait' by saying

superbowl's two recent posts ping.

This post of Fwesnid's pinged as town for me, especially the last bit where he tells Glitch he (Fwesnid) is the other person I was SRing. I feel like scum would've probably ignored this.

That being said, they are definitely avoiding a lot of contribution. And their other game (where Fwesnid was scum), they were about the same in terms of activity (very quick skim). Hmmm...

[Town looter]

Fuck it, my vote is not doing anything on SB .

VOTE: Fwesnid

[Town looter]

Sorry team, I have family in town atm, so activity is gonna be shit.

I'll try and watch to see what happens with Freiwndssednsnad wagon, otherwise, probably won't be reading until a catch up early next week.

[Town looter]

What I've learned about Virgo today:
He likes calling things he mildly disagrees with 'disgusting.'
He knows how to turn a paragraph worth of content into a page worth of posts.

Ahaha, you are really growing on me SJ.

I wonder how much of it is due to you being scum..?

[Town looter]

Haven't caught up, still only skimmed at best from about page 60... I'll try to catch up before deadline.

UNVOTE: Fwesnid for now, although there is a scenario where his role comes with a red title.

[Town looter]

@Glitch, what do you make of Fwesnid's claim?

[Town looter]

Ok did a solid 20 pages of reasonably indepth reading. Going to skip ahead to mid-80s, and reconvene. Remind me I need to read pages 70ish through 85 properly.

Spoiler: 50-60

Do you still scumread me town looter

Apologies, I missed this. Kinda, but it's super stale, and I need to revisit.

Glitch is still scum but he's not going to be lynched anytime soon thanks to his fake claim.

Don't like the Fwesnid wagon.

I especially don't like town looters vote on him in 1283. In the post about he fence sits on him so it seemed a bit wierd he was voting him.

Yeah, it was a shit vote - a result of feeling left behind in the game, but still wanting to progress it.

But I actually think Fwesnid's claim is a scum PR claim.

Also of note, Glitch could have crumbed or hinted at the fact that his role wouldn’t activate until D4 to point out if precisely something like this were to happen, but they didn’t and that’s why i believe they are either faking PR or it’s a scum role.

Neither claim is faultless, but a day/night specific role for scum would be weird right? (I genuinely don't know the answer, still pretty limited experience, especially with closed setups).

he is the most scummy person in this game by far

While I agree with the rest of your post, the OMGUS is strong here.

I feel like this sequence between Nero and Stan is reaching (but not unreasonable reaching) from a Town!Nero and OMGUS from Town!Stanley. Although I feel that way about most of Nero's interactions...

Page 56 & 57: Getting town vibes from A50 through this phase. Something about their argument on Norwegian. I have been on and off SRing Norwegian since the start of the game, and what A50 is saying rings true for me. Apart from the bottom of the page lol... just got to that bit.

It looks opportunistic.

Take it from someone with a scum game you respect

.(I am not a good scum player).

What does this mean? I am genuinely confused.

Skipping ahead... a few pages

I REALLY like Hikari's 1458 and scumread of CSF/Alisae slot. I don't think scum is going to look at that replacement and build a case out of it, it's got to be a townie effort 100% of the time.

I don't understand Hikari's argument. Can someone ELIA5?

Spoiler: 61+

JV's posts from 1500 strike me as very low effort, active lurking. Mild SR there.

Looter, I see your vote is on Fwesnid right now.

Do you scum read them?

Only really for a activity reasons (they are displaying similar levels of activity to their previous game which was scum) as I said earlier.

I am also getting a good vibe from MM. Like the opposite of JV. Seems to be actually wanting to solve the game rather than throwing out meaningless shite (pages 62/63). In other news, still on different wavelength to Nero and NBoyEE.

The thing i don’t get is, if we all think his claim was fake.

I don't. I never scumread glitch. Pretty sure many here feel similar, don't speak for everyone on this.

Town pings from this sequence. I guess my stale SR is officially dead.

GLITCH IS NOT HAPPENING HE CLAIMED PR

NERO/NORWAY ARE NOT HAPPENING THEY HAVE TOO MUCH CLOUT

Can we stop wasting time voting useless people and consolidate before the deadline hits? Either join fwesnid or join a wagon going somewhere

I'll concede nero prolly isnt happened so even tho he is my biggest scumread here I'll invite

but what has NBEE done to achieve clout this game? all he has done really is simp for nero and double down on glitch after a claim. Also last game I played with NBEE he was obviously town from the get go, here his attitude is entirely different. Ik he already said that that game he made more of an effort to appear town but eh I dont really see why he wouldnt here even if isnt the same role

VOTE: NBEE

At risk of buying a shit tonne of OMGUS from Nero and NBoyEE, but I am agreeing a lot with this post.

Btw kinda irrelevant but last day or 2 my read on superbowl has done an 180 from scum to hard towny

Sonofabitch... I am not trying to pocket, honest

norwee clearly flips town here but he's being wrong about what the correct attitude to take here is

Why is Norwegian so town to you? Like, sure, you don't have to scum read them, but why town? This post could at best is anti-town, and at worst incredibly manipulative. That being said, I clearly don't see the world the same as you do.

Page 65 and Pete is starting to get into the game, and being pretty pro-town. Tonw-pass for now, but there is a hint of extreme control over what they say which sets off a faint alarm. But tbf, I am a few beers deep now...

Confbias is taking over on 66 and reading SB as pretty solid town now.

Getting tired and CBF reading walls, so Alisae slot is null (not read) for now.

I got up to page 71, but starting skipping and skimming in a big way, which is a sign to give up - the reads will only get shitter...

[Town looter]

My shitty list of reads...

Town:

• Nero
  
• Pickaxe Pete
  
• Stanley
  
• Superbowl
  
• A50
  
• Bell
  
• MM

Null:

• CSF slot
  
• 72offsuit
  
• NPOM
  
• SJReaver
  
• Ralph
  
• IKS
  
• Laspa
  
• Titus

Glitch and Fwesnid are annoying. I am fairly sure there is a fake/scum PR claim in one of these, but not sure which.

Scum pool:

• JV
  
• NBoyEE
  
• Hiraki

[Town looter]

Two of my TRs and one ??? on Norwegian. Sounds promising.

VOTE: NorwegianBoyEE

[Town looter]

I find it difficult to believe scum would be given a night 3 or day 4 ability, but that's an opinion from an uninformed person (I think this is like my second closed setup ever played - most of my games have been newbies)

There are definitely two different styles or approaches or whatever you want to call it in this game.

There's the Stanley/Glitch/TL approach, and the Nero/Hiraki/NBoyEE approach. I wouldn't say one is more or less scummy in the context of this game, they are just different. That said, I know I have a bias here and am probably over TRing the former, and over SRing the latter.

[Town looter]

Glitch and Fwesnid are annoying. I am fairly sure there is a fake/scum PR claim in one of these, but not sure which.

doesn't this contradict your post stating that you think fwe's claim is a pr scum claim?

I guess, but when I wrote this I hadn't read Glitch's most recent batch of posts. Something about his reaction to Fwisned's claim gave me doubts. Enough to kinda throw them in together rather than favouring one as more likely to be true.

[Town looter]

Fwesnid is a self-solving slot now, so there is zero need to bother thinking about it (unless I misunderstood what a loud gunsmith is).

They could be a scum aligned loud gunsmith though right?

Can you tell me why you think Hiraki is scum, btw? I don't get it.

I feel like they are trying to drive town in a direction, while being cryptic with their explanations. Both rubs me the wrong way, and feels scummy.

pedit: no. but plenty of others have low confidence in it, so I was kinda following their lead.

[Town looter]

I gotta go to bed sorry team. Should be active tomorrow - family have left.

[Town looter]

I mean, maybe its just me saying that you believe the FWE's claim is dake and then going "oh I actully can't tell wich one is fake" just seems like covering your tracks if fwe flips town and glitch flips scum.

Nah, that's a fair conclusion to reach. It's not accurate, but it's a perfectly rational scenario.

[Town looter]

FUCK, BED. DONT YOU PEDIT ME NERO

[Town looter]

Fwesnid is a self-solving slot now, so there is zero need to bother thinking about it (unless I misunderstood what a loud gunsmith is).

They could be a scum aligned loud gunsmith though right?

Can you tell me why you think Hiraki is scum, btw? I don't get it.

I feel like they are trying to drive town in a direction, while being cryptic with their explanations. Both rubs me the wrong way, and feels scummy.

pedit: no. but plenty of others have low confidence in it, so I was kinda following their lead.

Uhh, yes, that's true, apparently Loud is a "normal" modifier for any alignment. That means he has to get townier than that once he proves he actually is a loud gunsmith lol.

Ah ok... Sheep the Hiraki scumread is a mystery to me for everyone, and I don't like to see that some people are actually sheeping that. If anyone scumreading Hiraki could explain their point a bit, it'd be appreciated.

Clarification: My pedit was in response to Nero about Glitches claim. I am not sheeping anyone regarding Hiraki.

My SR on Hiraki is mostly based on 1611 plus their general unhelpful approach - a Scum!Hiraki scenario I am following right now is them are using their meta and experience to enhance Town's confirmation bias (e.g. "NBoyEE is definitely town!").

[Town looter]

I find it difficult to believe scum would be given a night 3 or day 4 ability, but that's an opinion from an uninformed person (I think this is like my second closed setup ever played - most of my games have been newbies)

There are definitely two different styles or approaches or whatever you want to call it in this game.

There's the Stanley/Glitch/TL approach, and the Nero/Hiraki/NBoyEE approach. I wouldn't say one is more or less scummy in the context of this game, they are just different. That said, I know I have a bias here and am probably over TRing the former, and over SRing the latter.

1 of these things is not like the other why is hiraki in there?

Just a style thing, rather than a grouping of opinions. I guess I would call it slow and considered (and maybe inexperienced, but don't know about stan) vs. short and sharp (and experienced). Hiraki fits into the latter category.

[Town looter]

I'll freely admit I am struggling to get any SRs with any kind of confidence. JV, NBoyEE and Hiraki are all low confidence reads.

[Town looter]

a Scum!Hiraki scenario I am following right now is them are using their meta and experience to enhance Town's confirmation bias (e.g. "NBoyEE is definitely town!").

so i am scum because i say things, you don't ask why, and you just assume i'm calling it out of nowhere? do you think i think meta is a useful tool? read my posts again, thanks

Ok. So I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

norwee clearly flips town here but he's being wrong about what the correct attitude to take here is

Why is Norwegian so town to you? Like, sure, you don't have to scum read them, but why town? This post could at best is anti-town, and at worst incredibly manipulative. That being said, I clearly don't see the world the same as you do.

[Town looter]

Ok mostly caught up but there are a few sections I still haven't read properly (like 70-82ish I think).

Where my head is at after not paying any attention to Mafia for a while (this is my only game, so nothing doing during freeze) is I am fairly certain there are 1 or 2 experienced scum playing a "wreck havoc" strategy by lots of misinterpretation and OMGUS and keeping it confusing. Basically I am suggesting the opposite of Titus's theory is happening. Scum aren't waiting it out - they are creating havoc through activity and making D1 almost impossible.

Namely, my theory is that town are going to town on each other and scum are waiting it out.

The problem here, though, is this strategy is being beautifully (from scum's POV) confounded with genuine misinterpretations and confusion.

This does support my Scum!Norwegian scenario, so I still think my vote there is ok, but it's not doing anything as I don't think anyone wants to eliminate them. It also moves my read of people like Nero, and more recently 72/Titus towards, er, the scum end of the spectrum.

As such I would be comfortable flipping anyone in [Norwegian, JV, Hiraki (previous reads), Titus, 72].

[Town looter]

"I voted him but he's not scummy" really sells a wagon.

VOTE: titus
I still scumread them.

Something about this really bugs me, but I think I have a SR bias on you Fwesnid for some reason.

[Town looter]

Um.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: 72offsuit but probably willing to move to Titus (although I am pretty uncertain on that slot to be honest...)

[Town looter]

Just read pages 70-83, and I would add A50 to the list of people who could be actively confusing the thread (although I do get a fairly strong gut TR on them).

JV looked decently towny during this phase as well. Probably move them out of my flip pool for now.

[Town looter]

Hmmm, if I were to take a guess, I would say Titus is town, Fwesnid is scum, and Glitch is ???

Fwesnid not releasing results screams of "I need time to talk to my scum team about strategy".

VOTE: Fwesnid

[Town looter]

Plz no.
Fwesnid is not the wagon we need nor deserve RN.

I'd argue Glitch is worse. But ok. If not Fwesnid or Glitch, then who?

Your case on Stan is wafer thin from my POV because the things you call out as scummy are thing I would say in his position, and I know I am town.

My first question is actually rhetorical, because, regardless of you alignment, I don't think you and I will agree on who we think is scum. I'll happily write that up to me being bad, and you being awesome to avoid an argument (because I think we have already been distracted by too many confusion causing arguments).

[Town looter]

Actually... my second para above isn't quite true. I am surprised Stan didn't mention the obvious WIFOM element at play... hmmm.

[Town looter]

I'd argue Glitch is worse. But ok. If not Fwesnid or Glitch, then who?

Titus??? Your last few posts have been if not straight scummy definitely crazy

Yeah, I am well out of my depth on this one. Reason I flip-flopped on Titus was I thought the babysitter claim seemed more reasonable given IKS confirming, and the sequence on the bottom of page 111 seemed towny (especially since I seem to have a strong bias in my Fwesnid read).

But something is definitely not adding up. So far we have:

• A watcher (now dead, confirmed town)
  
• A beefed up roleblocker (now dead, confirmed town)
  
• A 3-shot gunsmith
  
• A babysitter
  
• A delayed, but supposedly powerful, mystery PR
  
• A vigilante or other secondary kill mechanism

This seems like a lot, would I be right in saying it's almost certain that there is scum in [Glitch, Fwesnid, Titus]?

pedit: I think SB answered my question

[Town looter]

What don't you like? Lets chat

[Town looter]

What don't you like? Lets chat

The fact that you voted Fewsnid with the reasoning that he hadn’t released his result yet.
I don’t see why he’d immediately post his result, he might even be checking if his target is PR or scum yet.

Posting, but not saying he had a positive, is pretty anti-town. The information only helps us. Even if he decides to wait until the person receiving decides to proactively speak up (which they haven't, who hasn't posted yet?), he still should've more openly stated a result.

A more likely scenario is he has not known exactly how to proceed and is checking in with his scum buddies.

That being said, I am coming around to Scum!Glitch as well. I gave them the benefit of the doubt to begin with, but an active lurking/buying time inexperienced scum strategy is starting to feel more likely.

[Town looter]

What don't you like? Lets chat

The fact that you voted Fewsnid with the reasoning that he hadn’t released his result yet.
I don’t see why he’d immediately post his result, he might even be checking if his target is PR or scum yet.

Posting, but not saying he had a positive, is pretty anti-town. The information only helps us. Even if he decides to wait until the person receiving decides to proactively speak up (which they haven't, who hasn't posted yet?), he still should've more openly stated a result.

A more likely scenario is he has not known exactly how to proceed and is checking in with his scum buddies.

That being said, I am coming around to Scum!Glitch as well. I gave them the benefit of the doubt to begin with, but an active lurking/buying time inexperienced scum strategy is starting to feel more likely.

OK. He checked me. I have a gun. Now shut up about this and move on.

P.S. I did have you in my Town pool, but pursuing this issue is very very scummy of you. Sounds like you want to know who the "more important" PRs are.

Fuck I thought you were trolling. Urgh.

[Town looter]

I'd like A50 to claim, solely because of the gunsmith check.

And in extension I'm going to pressure it
VOTE: A50

Read his iso, you don't need a claim.

[Town looter]

[Town looter]

I feel Lord Ralph / His Replacement should get the honor of hammering or at least speaking this phase before someone else hammers.

I-C-C-M-M
Since I am loud and I did get a result.

Also vengeful would be really weird to tact onto a vigilante from a design perspective, as it'd only be useful in a tiny % of games.

I don't understand the I-C-C-M-M bit... but maybe I am over-complicating things... are you just saying you counter claim MM?

Do we want to get final reads from MM? Helpful regardless of alignment right?

[Town looter]

UNVOTE: Fwesnid
Um... gin's have been strong tonight, but yeah, I have no idea.

My only thought is SB if you are scum, you are gooooooood, and we're fucked. But you're not, hopefully.

[Town looter]

Hmm, it's true that townies are likely to be on my wagon too, but I'm saying that scum, who know both me and Fwesnid are town PRs, would love to see both of us die while keeping their hands clean, hence why I think they're even more likely to get on my wagon.

As for analyzing how people got off the wagon and how they acted, I already did that with Bell and Jackson, and found that both of them were towny here. I also still don't like how Titus has hopped on my wagon, talked about what was Normal and what wasn't, and then got off the wagon. That's scummy IIoA + what I would expect from scum who see that the wagon is losing its traction.

I think that's such a stretch. If we're wrong MM can just take out scum!Fwesnid on his way down and now it will also tell us a bit about the alignment of Flake and A50.

VOTE: Glitch

With the light of the feedback, this post looks pretty bad. From a town PoV, it'd be a poorly detailed position (and it's not that Glitch can't detail his position, he proved it during the Nero - Glitch fight). From a scum PoV, it'd be an easy lineup of two PR deaths that doesn't make him look bad and that gives him a justification to vote me and to support the vengekill on Fwesnid.

see here its more than just glitch being on the wagon. if we assume Glitch is scum for a second, he is using his knowledge that both Fwes and MM were likely both telling the truth to set up both of their deaths in one go, and reads as if he is persuading people to get it over with to achieve that. (tbf tho its likely MM would have shot Fwes anyway if he had died, so its not needed to tell MM to do it anyway but still)

VOTE: glitch thats 8/10 votes, still not convinced glitch is scum but when MM pointed the above out it made me think its quite likely tbf. plus idk where else to vote and id like to get to the bottom the mysterious soft claim too

I don't these lines of reasoning stack up. I nearly hammered MM yesterday - from a town POV it was fairly clear cut what to do, it looked very much like we had caught scum and I was eager for some hammer action. However, I hadn't even considered the possibility of a mod error. So glad I delayed myself waiting for reads from MM...

Scum on the other hand would have known something funny was up. They would know MM and Fwesnid's alignments, and even in a Scum!Fwesnid scenario would know something was amiss (as they would have full knowledge of his role, including modifiers).

This makes me think Glitch, and other hard pushers during the situation, are likely to be town - a push only makes sense from a position of ignorance. The informed would be very wary of doing anything, because they would know there had been an error, and that it was likely to be fixed at some point. The only real scum opportunity here would be to quick hammer when MM was at L-1, but they would only do this if Fwesnid was town (and they had been around to do so).

I am going to go back at some point and see who did what, but right now I am thinking Glitch town, and Stanley scum as a consequential read (i.e. pushing Glitch). I am going back and forth on Fwesnid, do you guys think scum would've quick hammered at L-1 in a town!Fwesnid scenario? MM not definitely wanting to shoot Fwesnid at the time confuses this, and makes me think they might not, even in a town!Fwesnid scenario.

Obviously some elements of WIFOM, but I am not inclined to not think too much into it as the source of uncertainty if outside of players control in this situation, so I think gaming less likely.

[Town looter]

*First line correction, should read: I don't think these lines of reasoning stack up

[Town looter]

Spoiler:

Hmm, it's true that townies are likely to be on my wagon too, but I'm saying that scum, who know both me and Fwesnid are town PRs, would love to see both of us die while keeping their hands clean, hence why I think they're even more likely to get on my wagon.

As for analyzing how people got off the wagon and how they acted, I already did that with Bell and Jackson, and found that both of them were towny here. I also still don't like how Titus has hopped on my wagon, talked about what was Normal and what wasn't, and then got off the wagon. That's scummy IIoA + what I would expect from scum who see that the wagon is losing its traction.

I think that's such a stretch. If we're wrong MM can just take out scum!Fwesnid on his way down and now it will also tell us a bit about the alignment of Flake and A50.

VOTE: Glitch

With the light of the feedback, this post looks pretty bad. From a town PoV, it'd be a poorly detailed position (and it's not that Glitch can't detail his position, he proved it during the Nero - Glitch fight). From a scum PoV, it'd be an easy lineup of two PR deaths that doesn't make him look bad and that gives him a justification to vote me and to support the vengekill on Fwesnid.

see here its more than just glitch being on the wagon. if we assume Glitch is scum for a second, he is using his knowledge that both Fwes and MM were likely both telling the truth to set up both of their deaths in one go, and reads as if he is persuading people to get it over with to achieve that. (tbf tho its likely MM would have shot Fwes anyway if he had died, so its not needed to tell MM to do it anyway but still)

VOTE: glitch thats 8/10 votes, still not convinced glitch is scum but when MM pointed the above out it made me think its quite likely tbf. plus idk where else to vote and id like to get to the bottom the mysterious soft claim too

I don't these lines of reasoning stack up. I nearly hammered MM yesterday - from a town POV it was fairly clear cut what to do, it looked very much like we had caught scum and I was eager for some hammer action. However, I hadn't even considered the possibility of a mod error. So glad I delayed myself waiting for reads from MM...

Scum on the other hand would have known something funny was up. They would know MM and Fwesnid's alignments, and even in a Scum!Fwesnid scenario would know something was amiss (as they would have full knowledge of his role, including modifiers).

This makes me think Glitch, and other hard pushers during the situation, are likely to be town - a push only makes sense from a position of ignorance. The informed would be very wary of doing anything, because they would know there had been an error, and that it was likely to be fixed at some point. The only real scum opportunity here would be to quick hammer when MM was at L-1, but they would only do this if Fwesnid was town (and they had been around to do so).

I am going to go back at some point and see who did what, but right now I am thinking Glitch town, and Stanley scum as a consequential read (i.e. pushing Glitch). I am going back and forth on Fwesnid, do you guys think scum would've quick hammered at L-1 in a town!Fwesnid scenario? MM not definitely wanting to shoot Fwesnid at the time confuses this, and makes me think they might not, even in a town!Fwesnid scenario.

Obviously some elements of WIFOM, but I am not inclined to not think too much into it as the source of uncertainty if outside of players control in this situation, so I think gaming less likely.

I think it's the other way around: scum would want the lynch to happen as soon as possible BEFORE town figures out that there was something wrong.

Which was why I mentioned the quick hammer thing. There was a sort of semi-hammer test, because anyone who quick hammered could have absolutely talked their way out of being confirmed scum due to the circumstances (shit, I nearly hammered at the time I asked for final reads from you).

There are reasons why scum wouldn't hammer in this situation though( so it's not a perfect test, but it is useful):

• None were around that weren't already on the wagon
  
• Fwesnid is scum and there was a high chance of you shooting Fwesnid
  
• They were worried since you didn't sound too convinced about shooting Fwesnid, that they make take a bullet from a quick hammer (as had happened with Pete)

Fwesnid could still be either alignment, even once their role is confirmed. I can't see a world where we need to lynch you.

One theory I am toying with though is Scum!Bell. Scum would have absolutely known something had gone wrong with the night actions, so I think Bell pushing super hard at the mod and saving the day so to speak is an attempt at getting effectively confirmed as town - he's already set to go deep with broad TRs, so it makes sense the scum team try to get him confirmed as town.

[Town looter]

I think dolittle deserves to go today over stan actually assuming glitch is legit, I think stan will provide more AI stuff as it goes on and certain stuff is making me question my SR

i told you im not planning to effort at this stage of the game for a variety of reasons

Stuff like this I say 1 passive sentence about how I scumread you and you appear from the ether to throw an excuse at me. Didn't help your case with this one

VOTE: DoLittle

You are probably my strongest town read right now so I am going to follow your lead.

VOTE: DrDoLittle

L-2 I think

[Town looter]

Yep, L-2

[Town looter]

Hold up how does MM NKing someone help us figure out if MM is vig or scum??

If there are 2 kills instead of one.
But there are also potentially mafia roleblockers that can mess it up.
The brilliant thing though is that unless mafia has a doctir then the real vig will just shoot a fake claiming scum!MM.

It's possible scum have a doctor since we have a lot of PRs, including a vig and maybe a gunsmith (Fwesnid). Gunsmith false negatives would help offset the PRs from a balance point of view.

[Town looter]

Vote 1 - Ralph
Vote 2 - shelly
Vote 3 - superbowl
Vote 4 - Norway
Vote 5 - MM
Vote 6 - Flake
Vote 7 - NPOM
Vote 8 - Looter
Vote 9a - JV (unvotes)
Vote 9b - Stanley
Vote 10 - JV (hammer 33 minutes after claim before anyone on the wagon replies to the claim)

Spoiler: Quotes

VOTE: drdo my bad haha . sorey for that

What are your reads?

i dont have any

sorry to disappoint

wtf you have NO READS?
VOTE: DrDolittle

DrDolittle's ISO looks terrible, really terrible. I need to see more from you and this is a pressure vote

I think dolittle deserves to go today over stan actually assuming glitch is legit, I think stan will provide more AI stuff as it goes on and certain stuff is making me question my SR

i told you im not planning to effort at this stage of the game for a variety of reasons

Stuff like this I say 1 passive sentence about how I scumread you and you appear from the ether to throw an excuse at me. Didn't help your case with this one

VOTE: DoLittle

VOTE: DDL
How about you participate now.

What are your reads?

i dont have any

sorry to disappoint

wtf you have NO READS?
VOTE: DrDolittle

DrDolittle's ISO looks terrible, really terrible. I need to see more from you and this is a pressure vote

I guess he's living up to his name, right? But more seriously, I support this and actually VOTE: DrDoLittle moar pressure = moar good. Still would like to see more from Glitch, but.... I guess that's not trending atm? Expecting to see it at the very least on D3, though.

VOTE: DDL

VOTE: ddl

I think dolittle deserves to go today over stan actually assuming glitch is legit, I think stan will provide more AI stuff as it goes on and certain stuff is making me question my SR

i told you im not planning to effort at this stage of the game for a variety of reasons

Stuff like this I say 1 passive sentence about how I scumread you and you appear from the ether to throw an excuse at me. Didn't help your case with this one

VOTE: DoLittle

You are probably my strongest town read right now so I am going to follow your lead.

VOTE: DrDoLittle

L-2 I think

DoLittle could very likely be scum here, might as well pressure for a claim.

VOTE: Dolittle

This is now E-1

Another vague PR claim
UNVOTE:

Ok I cooled off. Its pretty clear that I'm a *very* good PR, and I really don't want to out, unless someone specifically requests it. My clown apathy play is not to draw a NK, and I figure I can avoid ML since this game is a large. I'll give my by and large thoughts tomorrow since it's 3am here

VOTE: DDL
we cant just keep having people soft claim mystery roles and then move on we are just gonna keep going round in circles until we lynch a vt or someone quickhammers. I guess youre prolly sleeping but you gotta claim when youre back

Intent to hammer

You should probably full-claim.

Sorry if wrong but I don't believe a word of any of that.
VOTE: DoLittle

More votes on JV please.[/quote]

@MOD: Can you please count again? This looks like there were 10 active votes at one point

[Town looter]

Fixed version

Vote 1 - Ralph
Vote 2 - shelly
Vote 3 - superbowl
Vote 4 - Norway
Vote 5 - MM
Vote 6 - Flake
Vote 7 - NPOM
Vote 8 - Looter
Vote 9a - JV (unvotes)
Vote 9b - Stanley
Vote 10 - JV (hammer 33 minutes after claim before anyone on the wagon replies to the claim)

Spoiler: Quotes

VOTE: drdo my bad haha . sorey for that

What are your reads?

i dont have any

sorry to disappoint

wtf you have NO READS?
VOTE: DrDolittle

DrDolittle's ISO looks terrible, really terrible. I need to see more from you and this is a pressure vote

I think dolittle deserves to go today over stan actually assuming glitch is legit, I think stan will provide more AI stuff as it goes on and certain stuff is making me question my SR

i told you im not planning to effort at this stage of the game for a variety of reasons

Stuff like this I say 1 passive sentence about how I scumread you and you appear from the ether to throw an excuse at me. Didn't help your case with this one

VOTE: DoLittle

VOTE: DDL
How about you participate now.

What are your reads?

i dont have any

sorry to disappoint

wtf you have NO READS?
VOTE: DrDolittle

DrDolittle's ISO looks terrible, really terrible. I need to see more from you and this is a pressure vote

I guess he's living up to his name, right? But more seriously, I support this and actually VOTE: DrDoLittle moar pressure = moar good. Still would like to see more from Glitch, but.... I guess that's not trending atm? Expecting to see it at the very least on D3, though.

VOTE: DDL

VOTE: ddl

I think dolittle deserves to go today over stan actually assuming glitch is legit, I think stan will provide more AI stuff as it goes on and certain stuff is making me question my SR

i told you im not planning to effort at this stage of the game for a variety of reasons

Stuff like this I say 1 passive sentence about how I scumread you and you appear from the ether to throw an excuse at me. Didn't help your case with this one

VOTE: DoLittle

You are probably my strongest town read right now so I am going to follow your lead.

VOTE: DrDoLittle

L-2 I think

DoLittle could very likely be scum here, might as well pressure for a claim.

VOTE: Dolittle

This is now E-1

Another vague PR claim
UNVOTE:

Ok I cooled off. Its pretty clear that I'm a *very* good PR, and I really don't want to out, unless someone specifically requests it. My clown apathy play is not to draw a NK, and I figure I can avoid ML since this game is a large. I'll give my by and large thoughts tomorrow since it's 3am here

VOTE: DDL
we cant just keep having people soft claim mystery roles and then move on we are just gonna keep going round in circles until we lynch a vt or someone quickhammers. I guess youre prolly sleeping but you gotta claim when youre back

Intent to hammer

You should probably full-claim.

Sorry if wrong but I don't believe a word of any of that.
VOTE: DoLittle

More votes on JV please.

@MOD: Can you please count again? This looks like there were 10 active votes at one point

[Town looter]

wtf just happened
didn't DDL get hammered
imo stanley is about 4th or 5th priority in my lynchpool
jackson's hammer lost town points though

how in the world do we have a gunsmith cop and watcher

Jackson has CC'd, so we're eliminating one of those two today.

Although I think we have already eliminated DrDolittle, as I believe they had 10 votes. Jackson hammered.

[Town looter]

town looter what's your purpose do you want my flip?

No, I am a stickler for accuracy and a game that follows the rules. If you got hammered, you should flip. I would say this as any alignment.

Game integrity is important for me.

[Town looter]

Spoiler:

VC2.05

With 18 alive it takes 10 to eliminate

DrDolittle (6):

ralph217, shellyc, superbowl9, NorwegianBoyEE, I Keep Siteflaking, NoPowerOverMe

Glitch (4):

DrDolittle, JacksonVirgo, Marshmallow Marshall, Titus

stan1ey (2):

Ydrasse, Fwesnid

NoPowerOverMe (2):

Almost50, Glitch, Hiraki

Ydrasse (1):

Bell

Not Voting (2):

stan1ey, Town looter

Deadline:

(expired on 2020-09-10 09:00:00)

Mod Notes:

@mod:
this vc is missing marshmallow's vote (3330) and town looter's (3341) votes on dr. dolittle

ralph - 3211 (1)
shelly - 3290 (2)
superbowl - 3324 (3)
norwegian - 3327 (4)
mm - 3330 (5)
iks - 3332 (6)
npom - 3333 (7)
tl - 3341 (8)
jackson - 3356 (9)
jackson - 3370 (8)
stanley - 3373 (9)
jackson - 3407 (10)

this SHOULD be correct, i went through all the posts regarding dr. dolittle and this should contain everything. i didn't include the votes off-wagon but i'm pretty sure he's hammered. :>

p-edit: oh! i hope you feel better!

Yes, I got the same outcome. JV hammered DrD

[Town looter]

No, I am a stickler for accuracy and a game that follows the rules. If you got hammered, you should flip. I would say this as any alignment.

Game integrity is important for me.

you can have a conversation with the list mod then. This is game irrelevant content and it looks like you want to use a technicality to elim me, which of course I'm going to scum read you for it

This is a weird response.

How is it a technicality that you had 10 votes and should be eliminated according to how mafia games work?

If you are town, it's a shame you got hammered, but that doesn't mean I should argue for you to be left alive.

That

would be a real technicality: oh the VC said no hammer, so no hammer... unless I am mistaken, VCs are for information purposes (and are prone to errors), but a vote is a vote and overrides the VC if the VC is shown to be incorrect right?

[Town looter]

I'm not at L-1 right? I'll soft claim now and hard claim if I'm put back at L-1. Y'all need me to stay alive until like Day 4. Please don't make me hard claim.

I'll just be honest, I let myself get really emotional and worked up with the Nero interaction. I got really frustrated because I've been making genuine, real arguments and they get consistently shot down and discredited as scummy when they are actually genuine. I know it's part of the game but I got really exhausted with Nero and felt so ready to be done. I genuinely believe Nero is scum because of the arguments I've presented so far, but I also understand that I may be SR'ing him so hard cause I'm just pissed that he is tunneling me so hard.

I stand by everything I said about Nero. I understand I could be playing like a noob but it's all been genuine and if I get eliminated for it, when I flip town please let me know how I can play better and not get voted off D1 cause it tends to happen a lot to me.

Regardless, I'm a town PR that won't be super useful until later in the game. I've been having a really hard time sorting people and making heads and tails of anyone in this game. Idk if it's because it's my first large, Idk if it's because I'm frustrated and too focused in one spot, or something else. Right now my SRs are still Nero, Norway, MM, and I SL Hiraki and Lapsa and would love a push on both of them. I went kind of null on MM at one point but I'm back to a SR there and would be okay with a vote there. I've also gotten some off vibes from SB which is weird because SB was a super strong TR of mine early on. Not sure where I stand on him right now. I'm TR'ing stanley because of his more recent content -- not because he's defending me. See quotes on MM and stan below.

You are using the "Norwee was pushed hard enough for scummates to want to save him" argument against Glitch and are pushing his lynch for it

I am 100% in favor of eliminating Nero but this is not an argument he ever made. This isn't even a misrep, this is a straight up lie, and I like the lal policy so I'll be okay supporting a MM elim now if the Nero wagon won't pick up enough traction to eliminate.

Ftr im against lining up lynched. but either one is a good lynch rn

What do you mean by this?

I'm happy to lynch either nero or superbowl today (preferably nero)but it's best not to line up lynches ie. we shouldn't seriously be suggesting to lynch X person today and Y person tomorrow

Why would scum say this?

Huh, now I know why DrDolittle's approach struck me as weird... lol.

Guess we are treading water until Glitch comes back to us.

[Town looter]

Oh lol, dug up Glitch's old soft claim from way back and forgot about it...

[Town looter]

Why are we voting prior to claim? Like, it's not like he doesn't know what is required...

[Town looter]

Oh lol, dug up Glitch's old soft claim from way back and forgot about it...

Urgh, I am probably being erratic, and with JV this thread already has enough of that.

This post (talking about digging up Glitch quote) is why I have a wall of text quote in what looks like an entirely unrelated reply. Ignore the Glitch quote, I didn't mean to post that.

[Town looter]

VOTE: Glitch

wtf happened to your "usefulness"

stop stalling mate

The more I think about it, the more this post bothers me.

New hot take. Shelly is scum.

Doesn't preclude Glitch scum either, as it could just be a terrible bus.

pedit: lol kinda. maybe not the right word. You post your thought process, which sometimes seems to move quickly and seemingly erratically (that could be me not understanding you though).

[Town looter]

I don't know what you are talking about NPOM, Occam's Razor pretty much clears Glitch, and if you are really worried Glitch can just add one of our confirmed or near confirmed townies to the hood and they make a judgement (which will rule out the NEE/Glitch scum team possibility as well).

Also mass claim seems unnecessary right now given we have the advantage.

[Town looter]

Obviously this is not accounting for the 4D big brain gambit shit they might have tried. Which given some of Glitch's posts isn't off the cards (gimme a sec, i'll dig one up).

Either way, we aren't eliminating Glitch today.

[Town looter]

How would you differentiate between whether or not my claim is real or fake and I've had it ready since day one?

Of course I set it up from day one to be ready to claim when I had to.

That's not AI.

How does my explanation make you think scum? Also, if you flip me and see I'm town, would you elim Norway?

On the other hand, is this a scum slip?

Scum!Glitch makes no sense to me, but outside of typos that looks real bad...

[Town looter]

Why's that?

[Town looter]

That also makes sense for a neighborizer Glitch to say.

I should quote things...

Why would Neighborizer Glitch say that? Why would they set up a claim? No set up required if it's your role...

[Town looter]

I mean I still think occam's razor applies and Glitch is town, but shit, it's a weird statement to make

[Town looter]

Join my Shelly bus!

VOTE: Shellyc

Ima actually do a case too. Once I find my notes...

[Town looter]

That also makes sense for a neighborizer Glitch to say.

I should quote things...

Why would Neighborizer Glitch say that? Why would they set up a claim? No set up required if it's your role...

Let me turn that around, ehy would scum say that? It’s just one of Glitches peculiarities imo.

Yeah, I think the different styles at play fucked us up for a decent day and a half. But on track now.

pedit: No, and they need too. Lots of good data now.

[Town looter]

Oi Jackson, who'd you cop?

[Town looter]

Oi Jackson, who'd you cop?

And who got gunsmithed by Fwesnid...?

Maybe we should send Manatee a message to make sure he let whoever got checked lol.

[Town looter]

i cant imagine glitch saying anything that will convince us not to kill him today tbh

this is why I love this game, so many twists!

Don’t forget my healthy contribution.

true. if you had come in and said "nah that's bs lmao" glitch would have been spooked

I needed to fix this quote mess. That is all

[Town looter]

Nah turns out I don't have a case. SJ (your slot) gave me the heebie jeebies in 458, but when I re-read I can't see what I was thinking.

My only case on you right now is your Glitch vote. But it only takes one mistake to get caught, so I am ok with my weaker-than-I-initially-thought-but-still-ok case.

[Town looter]

Nah turns out I don't have a case. SJ (your slot) gave me the heebie jeebies in 458, but when I re-read I can't see what I was thinking.

My only case on you right now is your Glitch vote. But it only takes one mistake to get caught, so I am ok with my weaker-than-I-initially-thought-but-still-ok case.

@Bell: Something about SJ around 458 set me off, based on our previous game, can you take a re-read and lemme know if you see anything?

[Town looter]

To be fair my wife does my families finances.

I lol'd

[Town looter]

I think NPOM is scum here trying to back out of a hole they just flew into

Does anyone see what I do, or think it's just "haha lol they making funny"

yES, BUT STILL CATCHING UP

[Town looter]

yeah caught up, but deep in the gin. So... lets go with idontwtfisgoingon

[Town looter]

Sake, microwave, 30 sec. Delicious

[Town looter]

Also stop trying to pocket me, im not gonna TR you.

TR you is about as smart as TR Mena

[Town looter]

Ok, VOTE: NPOM

[Town looter]

L-2

[Town looter]

nah, anyone quick hammer and they ded

[Town looter]

prob should claim at l-2, iunno

[Town looter]

I wanna know who got touched up by Fw

[Town looter]

Why would Neighborizer Glitch say that?

Oh. You misinterpreted. OK. Pleas go back and reread the whole conversation. He was saying he did set up his

2 crumbs

from D1.

Yep, makes sense.

[Town looter]

Am i the only one that find it weird that scum have only killed VT’s rather than PR claims?

Yep, in fact I think we can probably do a pretty decent (albeit WIFOM) solve right now because of it. I am going to take a look tomorrow, when I am not hungover.

[Town looter]

It has to be 2 vigilante setup. I see no other way around it.

Rolefishing much?

Fos lapsa

I found that scum tend to FoS their buddies, especially if they're performing lackluster. I also did this and got called out in a scum game I am lowkey ashamed of.

It has to be 2 vigilante setup. I see no other way around it.

Rolefishing much?

Fos lapsa

youv being slow this game but the game isnt as fast pass

so heres a question whys he fish

id ont like you

Rolefishing is trying figure out what someones role is. It's scummy because scum have more interest in eliminating power roles than town.

I think ralph/npom are not SvS. Though I'm not entirely sure if scum!ralph would defend or attack lapsa in that position.

VOTE: Lapsa

Looks like we're consolidating.

VOTE: Glitch

Jumped on to their FoS but almost immediately jumps off when given the chance. Extremely interesting

I see Lapsa as a good D2 lynch choice tbh unless something else comes up.

Again FoSing their buddy to distance.

VOTE: Lapsa

I'm not saying I wouldn't lynch ralph or pete.

Voting Lapsa because they have no other choice really but then instantly planting a reason why they would have an out later on.

Eh why not?

VOTE: Fwesnid

Finally gets off the Lapsa vote with no real reasoning as to why but "eh".

I think this is scum. I am currently ISOing them, this is their D1.

This is a good case, and one from a pretty much confirmed townie.

[Town looter]

If Titus is town, we're good have faith in me.
If Titus is scum, mafia cannot kill me as they have to keep their claim.

I support this post since he seems to think it’s a good idea.

doesn't killing babysitter kill Jackson as well then?

It would. That's why I have fought to not have my target be outed.

This is why I dont understand Jackson's "trust me I got this" plan. If both Titus and JV are town like we want, why would scum kill anyone but Titus? Score a town PR hard claim (Titus) and a town PR soft claim (jv). I think any and all discussion of who Titus targets is scummy and should immediately cease from anyone who is truly town.

It's a test from JV on Titus, which I assume only works because of JV's odd-night ability (they claimed something odd night, cop even night PR, iirc).

Again I agree with Bell and trust Titus on this. Although JV I suggest you double check with mod and/or wiki pages to make sure you understand how the various abilities are going to work.

[Town looter]

Trust JV* not Titus

[Town looter]

VOTE: DDL

VOTE: ddl

These votes both being right after another is too scummy to be scum. LOL.

So you're thinking A50 is twtbw?

I just had a light bulb moment that I had not considered before.

IKSF fake claimed one shot disloyal vig in the neighborhood thread D2 and said he was targeting A50 N2. He said if his shot was accurate we elim scum, and if his shot was unsuccessful he targeted town and it wouldn't go through. Clearly Flake did not expect to die that same night and the whole thing was a lie.

What was the purpose of this lie?? I thought all along it was just to seem more towny to me and anyone else should he have to claim in the future. But why would he claim such a big lie?? Did he want to tell me on D3 that he shot unsuccessfully at A50 and that way I believe A50 is town? Then when IKSF has to claim either by L1 or mass claim he has a full story a claim ready that checks out with me and any other witnesses that are in the PT.

Is A50 scum with Flake and this is a runaround to get us to fake townread A50?

This is very interesting, and something I would have thought Norwegian would've mentioned as it's fairly important to the game.

This casts a huge shadow over A50, but very WIFOM.

Need to go back and see if you mentioned it in your original claim Glitch

[Town looter]

Ignore my comment about Norwegian, that only really applies if Glitch hadn't mentioned it before, but he did in his original claim. Derp.

[Town looter]

If scum have a doctor, and all their buddies get eliminated, can they still do night kills?

[Town looter]

why would scum!siteflaking attempt to clear scum!A50 when A50 might flip before siteflaking?'

Good point.

[Town looter]

So, based on that:
Town: [JV, MM, Ydr (unless Doc), A50, Glitch (assuming no scum theater)]
Likely town: [Titus (based on interaction with IKS)]
POE: [NPOM, Bell, Shelly, Hiraki, Fwesnid, Stanley, Ralph, Norwegian]

Bell, Hiraki and maybe even Ralph are probably town, so POE drops down to:

POE: [NPOM, Shelly, Fwesnid, Stanley, Norwegian]

[Town looter]

Why's Norwey town?

[Town looter]

Because I doubt he would go on a Lim b for glitch if they were both scum with only three scummers left.

Yeah, but if Glitch is town, then it makes sense for Norway to be honest about the PT regardless of their alignment. Easy towncred on offer, and lying is not an option as it would be too high risk.

[Town looter]

Even if you are town NPOM, I think you are our best option in the sense of most likely to be scum. Unless we want to switch to Shelly ofc, but she has a lot of support apparently.

[Town looter]

wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Oh?

[Town looter]

VC3.01

no song till im not in class

With 15 alive it takes 8 to eliminate

NoPowerOverMe (6:)

Ydrasse, shellyc, JacksonVirgo, Bell, stan1ey, Town looter

Titus (2:)

NoPowerOverMe, NorwegianBoyEE

Not Voting (7):

Almost50, Hiraki, Fwesnid, ralph217, Marshmallow Marshall, Titus, Glitch

Deadline:

updating soon

Mod Notes:

VOTE: NPOM

Let's end the day now.

Let's just end it.
Sorry if you are town.
VOTE: NoPowerOverMe

Glitch came on and then off, Bell cam off then back on. So I think that's a wrap.

[Town looter]

I still think A50 is town fwiw, their play has been likely to attract a vig shot since the start so saying IKS was going to die first isn't right imo.

[Town looter]

I wish I could raise a single eyebrow. It's a great skill to have.

[Town looter]

Ooooh Manatee? Wherefore art thou?

[Town looter]

Hi team, I haven't caught up since late 180's, anything interesting happen? I will catch up properly during night.

[Town looter]

I was recruited do t have time for anything else as I am standing outside with people in my lounge and I am being rude. But I have A LOT more to post

[Town looter]

Lol. Yay. I don’t need to worry. I can’t do what I need to now as I just saw something. Gimme a sec. I’m on mobile, and cuddling a child who just woke up.

[Town looter]

Can*

[Town looter]

Nope! I am not a fan of bussing anyways tbh

I'm a Vanilla Townie.

any questions?

I am town night 3 gunsmith. I have a big ole spiel about shit that I saved to my PC but have had a chance to post it and this shit has exploded.

I used my night action on Shelly.

She has a gun.

Given claim she is confirmed scum.

[Town looter]

Jackson has already worked it out, but now that I am on my PC, i'll post my pre-prepared wall anyway

Ok story time!!

I finally get to explain my Fwesnid bias, and provide my take on the setup (noting that given I don't really know that much about how setups are balanced, my insight will be limited).

So, I am town's Night 3 Gunsmith. And during the night I investigated Shellyc (at time of writing I still haven't got results but will post results very shortly).

My role, as far as I can see it, is 90% to do with me yielding a postivie from a Gunsmith, and 10% a genuine investigative role - my slot is effectively here to provide a false positive (again, at time of writing I don't know if i was visited by Fwesnid).

Now initially I assumed Fwesnid was scum aligned (and I kinda still do, but not as strongly as I did), because I figured I was a protown fall guy for our more powerful PRs (they kill me instead of killing someone more useful). But thinking about how strong our town PRs are, it's possible I am here to be elim-bait in the case Fwesnid investigates me, thus diluting Fwesnid's power and balancing his role up a bit. Given we have had two goons flip, this makes a bit more sense than the Scum!Fwesnid scenario (although I am not writing this off as having two, quite differently set up, gunsmiths seems odd).

I haven't crumbed this role at all cause I thought it pretty useless, but it was the reason I was SRing Fwesnid, and it's also partly why I believed Glitch's claim: I thought he was a Night X gunsmith or other type of gun holder. Hence post 2109. At the time I was thinking Scum had a gunsmith (Fwesnid) and Glitch, myself and others were delayed town PRs who were there as investigators with the fringe benefit of being fall guys for the Vig. However, Glitch's response didn't align with this, and from that point my TR on Glitch/SR on Fwesnid was weaker.

Anyhoo, thats my pre-recorded story. Results and anything else interesting based on day start incoming.

[Town looter]

Also vig shooting me tonight would be ultra stupid, you can just elim me tomorrow if shelly flips town. Spend your shot on someone else.

[Town looter]

oh wait, vig gets to see shelly flip. Never mind me, drunk logic.

shoot away on shelly flip my good man.

also VOTE: shelly

[Town looter]

@ Bell: Yup.

In other news, I feel like I have found out what my goal is in playing this game. To try and play like I do as scum - it's not an easy task given i play with a straight bat so to speak (cricket metaphor for the americans).

pedit: ok im too drunk to figure out Glitch's latest claim, will revisit tomorrow

[Town looter]

but i would say if a protown PR visited Norway then be careful about claiming.

[Town looter]

Lol this is pretty much a newbie game now, except with more confirmed and known PRs.

I am struggling to reconcile why Titus, Jackson and Gltich are still alive. MM makes sense as it was pretty obvious he was going to target A50 last night, but the other three, if town, are going to win us the game.

Makes me think that one of them ain't town. But there's good reasons why they are all town...

Urgh.

[Town looter]

No one is actually confirmed 100%. But from top to bottom:

1) Myself, Jackson and MM are almost 100% confirmed, outside of a deep gambit or bus. MM is probably the most confirmed given Vigilantes can only be town under normal rules
2) Glitch and Ydrasse are also likely town. Glitch's story is pretty robust, and one that would be impressive if fabricated (with many different points of failure), similarly Ydrasse is likely town as she does not have a gun - only scum!Ydrasse scenario is mafia doctor
2a) Titus is tricky. Kinda fits into 2) above, but the fact she is still alive is curious.

That leaves
3) Stanly, Ralph, Norway unconfirmed

[Town looter]

TBF you called her an idiot. I mean regardless of their actions, not exactly going to draw their gratitude lol.

[Town looter]

Lol this is pretty much a newbie game now, except with more confirmed and known PRs.

I am struggling to reconcile why Titus, Jackson and Gltich are still alive. MM makes sense as it was pretty obvious he was going to target A50 last night, but the other three, if town, are going to win us the game.

Makes me think that one of them ain't town. But there's good reasons why they are all town...

Urgh.

I almost 100% thought one of myself or titus would have died, maybe it's scum framing, maybe it's scum trying to avoid the threat of the babysitter, maybe it's scum!titus, maybe it's two scum with a simple modifier and thus can't kill PR's (that last one was definitely not a joke). I am not entirely sure.

Yeah there's some big brain shit going on. Which puts question marks on Glitch, Titus and Norway.

One of those three is playing us.

[Town looter]

Well there's a world where they aren't as well - and it's Ydr and Ralph or something. But still. Something smells funny.

[Town looter]

Well my reads are all POE atm, i need to do some homework, but cbf.

Just on Titus though. Let's say they are a loud maf doc:
- Being on IKSF N1 makes sense purely from a doc point of view.
- Targets for other nights are also plausible given she needed to keep her cover after claim
- I skimmed ISO and don't see anything obvious in her voting record... like many of us, has spent a fair amount of time voting on town.

[Town looter]

Odd night was tracker for you right? And you target me N1?

I think we could probably elimate and then shoot in { NEE, ralph, stan } and that should be gg. If not, we search in Titus/Ydrasse/Glitch for the other scum because I am almost certain that there's one scum in NEE/Ralph/Stan

p-edit: Tracker? No I am an odd-night doctor even-night cop. N1 was me trying to heal you as I TR'd you at the time.

I have no clue where you got tracker from

WTAF

[Town looter]

Need to iso and do homework, but Titus has to be scum here.

[Town looter]

Surely?!

[Town looter]

My bet is that scum have a strongman and a rolecop left

That does leave EE an out though where he's not just in a 1 v 1 if I am right

I am assuming as much, but am not understanding the second bit

Glitch has a positive motion detector result on NEE n2.

Either scum targeted NEE too or NEE and Glitch are in a 1 v 1.

Oh yeah, I thought that was resolved as JV visited Norway, but that was N1, not N2. Hmmm.

[Town looter]

I wonder if there is a reality where Jackson hard busses Goon DDL as a scum PR to go deep...

[Town looter]

Doctor makes a lot of sense with a vigilante and a babysitter. It gives a lot of killing protection some safety.

Scum could have a strongman but aren't required to have one as scum can just kill whoever they want on even nights if I am not protecting them.

Basically, the doctor is a failsafe built in if MM and I mess up.

Lol, I wish I knew enough about setups to know if this is just utter BS...

[Town looter]

wut

[Town looter]

I have no words

What did you expect anyway? For me to magically get trusted and not get hammered later?

Did not expect you to self-hammer, especially when I was going to do some ISO'ing.

Also Titus, be on me. MM shoot within Ralph/Stan. Glitch choose who you want to neighbourize, I of course want myself in there but that might just be personal bias.

I think that's a default win for town.

If NEE flips town, Titus needs to take the shot. That way we get Titus flip, and one of our POE.

It's how we win (well, kind of, we will still have a somewhat difficult LYLO by my reckoning).

[Town looter]

Sigh...

[Town looter]

Yeah we needed Titus to die last night and take out one of our POE, but that didn't happen.

Right now I am at: (townieness to scumminess, no people 100% confirmed, even JV)
JV
Glitch
Ydrasse = Titus
Ralph

The only issue with Titus's reasoning about a loud doc being bad is if the player is smart, understands the issue and early claims babysitter (which Titus did, they spat out their claim before they needed to). Babysitter adds a significant amount of uncertainty to who and why you are visiting people, and covers mob doc.

It's reliant on scum being sufficiently up to speed with roles to know what to fakeclaim, so not sure how it would fit in a balance conversation.

But I am far from 100% on Scum!Titus. Which is annoying. We're 1 too many in our POE for a definite win. Guess I am going to have to actually try and read people rather than relying on mechanical information.

On the no elimination thing, that is only a good move if we know Titus is scum. If we think they might be town, then we could lose overnight by babysitter being on town, getting shot and taking out another townie. No elim only really makes sense with a 2 person POE, in which case we'd just vote anyway.

[Town looter]

Good news is I think we win if we eliminate scum today.

[Town looter]

Yeah no elim and titus not using night action actually works. Scum have to kill because we have investigative.

Problem is we wouldn't know anything more tomorrow, because who-ever Glitch motion detects will just get other person to do kill. Other problem is if Titus decides to WIFOM, and gets it wrong, but eh, that is what it is - beyond my control so not going to worry about it.

[Town looter]

Glitch motion detect target should remain silent.

I must act though. If I don't act, that signs Jackson's death warrant. I may not heal him but scum need to have that fear. I want Jackson's result.

Best we don't even talk about it. You do what you think is best.

Only thing I would say is no action guarantees we see tomorrow, so that should be default position.

[Town looter]

at very least it rules out jack deepscum
no harm in doing that basicly

So you are advocating for us to lose the game?

While no elim is safest, pretty sure we could elim Ralph and we'd be fine. He is about as likely to be town as the odds of Titus fucking up the WIFOM night action.

[Town looter]

cuse its you or jack and i dont know who righ now . i can case much beter when i no for 100%

I don't see why you're setting up this false dichotomy. It makes you look desperate.

If your argument is there's too much power, then why wouldn't you question Town Looter? While I don't think Town Looter is scum, I feel his claim is fake. A night 3 gunsmith that doesn't CC the 3 shot gs or Jackson suggests the claim is fake. I doubt looter was bussing but rather it was a successful reaction test.

Then there's Glitch who has a result on EE allegedly. Yet EE flipped town. For Glitch's claim to be true, some unknown mafia PR visited EE night 2. Where is this PR?

Those are the questions I would be expecting you to ask if doubting the number of PRs in the game. Instead, your play seems to be about planning for when you and Jackson are both alive tomorrow.

Eh, I am not that good, and don't really have a feel for what a balanced setup looks like.

Point about Norway stands though. But scum having 1-2 strong PRs would not be surprising, so I don't think there is a lot to analyse here.

Reason no elim is best move has nothing to do with PRs nor who lives through the night, but simple statistics: blind voting our odds right now are 33% of hitting scum. That goes up to 40% if we blind vote tomorrow.

It also gives us another set of reliable reads from a town flip, plus the NK info (subject to WIFOM of course).

[Town looter]

A strong scum PR hard bussing a goon is also very likely, depending on the PR. So even those we have soft-cleared should probably be included in the possible elim pool (including myself from you guys' point of view).

[Town looter]

Which is even more reason to no elim.

[Town looter]

Ralph's motion detection negative is interesting in this context now that I think about it.

Add this to the responses to my little reaction test (5361, which Ralph got town points for and JV got scum points for), and Ralphs general approach, I am feeling very uncomfortable about eliminating anyone today.

[Town looter]

@Looter. Sure if it's a blind vote it's 33% but obviously this is not a blind vote at all. From my perspective the solve is fairly simple and it's essentially a 66% chance to hit scum within my poe. I have serious serious doubts thinking anyone is scum within looter/titus and that leaves a pool of 3. One we can pop today and the other I can solve with my check if the wifom goes our way

pedit: I do see your point but I still think it's just as safe to just lynch ralph here, they're pushing an anti-town agenda especially with a vote on them.

Oh for sure, we're not blind voting. But it's relative: our guesses today will always be worse today than they will be tomorrow.

[Town looter]

Did you post the wrong link

Yep, lol, 5631

[Town looter]

How does that work?

[Town looter]

I'll hammer no elim tomorrow unless someone convinces me otherwise overnight.

[Town looter]

Ok, so VOTE: No elimination

My SR on Ralph has softened, because he has been somewhat proactive today, which seems a bit odd - I would think a troll account would maintain the persona and play dumb if scum. But this theory isn't backed up with a lot.

Ydrasse is worrying me. There is a minor scum-tell I have been toying with since I restarted playing that she triggered. If Ydr is scum, then I don't think Titus can be, because of the Norway visit (Ydr has to be Doc, but also is the only person who would have visited Norway in a Titus/Ydr scum team, and Mafia Doc wouldn't visit town).

JV and Glitch are still getting Occam Razor passes for now. But assuming we make it through the night, they have to be considered (along with me, from everyone else's point of view) - hard bussing goons isn't a bad strategy when you have 1-2 powerful PRs.

Titus, I am still lost on. But possible she will be resolved tonight, so again, happy to leave that headache until tomorrow.

[Town looter]

Hoorey, we're being fucked with via WIFOM...

[Town looter]

Damn I didn't expect that. I recruited Ydrasse for motion detection. Wow.

I'll be back shortly to start sorting this.

This seems both genuine and a decision a towny would make. Ydrasse would've been a great motion detection target because she was unlikely to get targeted by anything and therefore a positive would be a reliable guilty result.

You are getting town binned.

Everyone else is in today's POE from my point of view.

I am going to wait until we hear from JV, and I have done some analysis of combinations and associations, before I cast a judgement.

[Town looter]

Interesting. Based on my pretty solid TR of Glitch (which I will explain a little more later), unless I go deep into the pits of paranoia, I too can solve and win.

Ralph v JV is a 1v1, with at least 1 scum confirmed between them, and very likely the other town. That leaves only Titus.

So the smart thing to do is eliminate Titus today, JV protects Glitch, and Glitch Motion Detects Ralph. That will end up in the same 1v2 with confirmed scum or 1v3 no kill scenario that your solve would result in, JV.

The problem is, only I see it this way. Although if Glitch feels the same way about me as I do him, he should realise Titus is scum as well.

The only wrinkle in this plan is the ultra-paranoia scenario where JV and Ralph are scum together...

[Town looter]

Oh and I confirm: Glitch asked about whether or not he could motion detect someone he had already targeted.

[Town looter]

Damn I didn't expect that. I recruited Ydrasse for motion detection. Wow.

I'll be back shortly to start sorting this.

This seems both genuine and a decision a towny would make. Ydrasse would've been a great motion detection target because she was unlikely to get targeted by anything and therefore a positive would be a reliable guilty result.

You are getting town binned.

This honestly doesn't make sense to me. Idk why that post of mine is AI at all. Can you explain why that post town bins me?

Well, I have been thinking you are town for most of the game, mostly because a lot (not all, though) of your thought processes mirror mine. The most recent example of this was my own surprise at Ydrasse dying (initially at least) - I thought she was going to survive the night as either she was scum, or she would be down the priority order*.

Then, the way you phrased your post is consistent with I think someone would react if they motion detectored someone, thinking it a pretty smart move in the context of the game, only for them to be night killed. I think its a case of

confidence proved wrong

which always hurts a little bit more, and I think your post reflects that.

*However, the WIFOM finally sunk in, and I suspect killing Ydrasse was the move of a scum who is thoroughly enjoying messing with us, especially if JV is town.

[Town looter]

From your pov, there's at least one scum within me and ralph with a possibility for both yet you push for a titus elimination.

Correct, now use that noggin of yours.

You and Ralph are unlikely to both be scum. But one of you is confirmed scum.

That leaves Titus and Glitch. Glitch I have a strong, confident TR on.

So I either 50/50 between you and Ralph, or I 50/50 between Titus and Glitch.

Glitch is my most confident read by a significant margin. I am simply going with the best odds of a scum elimination here.

I would have a very strong TR on you as well, except, well, you are still alive. This is where Scum has played very well, either you're the scum and deepwolfed excellently, or conversely left town!you alive to fuck with our heads, knowing it would lead to this situation.

That being said. I would support a Ralph elimination if the group insists on eliminating from the pool of [JV, Ralph].

[Town looter]

Ok, I was thinking there is a further case in that it makes no sense to keep Town!Titus alive. But after a thought experiment (below), I think leaving Town!Titus alive makes some sense. Blergh...

Spoiler:

Also, why would scum not shoot Titus last night?

Worst case they lose one of their team mates, best case they win the game.

Lets say Ralph is scum, Titus is town, and for sake of example, I am Ralph's partner. We'd have to roll the dice on who does the kill, but if we were smart (which I am not sure I am, but I have hindsight on my side here), we'd probably figure I a) am unlikely to be targeted by Titus as I wasn't being SR by her, nor was worth protecting, so very likely to make it through the night even if we kill Titus, and b) would need to stay clean in the case I got motion detectored. This would lead to Ralph doing the kill.

So Ralph and Titus die; JV, Glitch, Ydr and myself would all be alive. We'd probably no elimination again to get another motion detector, and depending on if I felt like being an arse, i'd probably no kill (although maybe not, given i'd need to kill regardless the following night). I'd then kill JV and hope I didn't get motion detectored.

Ok that is probably a worse scenario for scum than the current game state... hmmm.

pedit: yeah, especially from Town!JV POV my position is ridiculous - you have a god damn guilty result. The problem is, I don't know for certain town!JV exists...

[Town looter]

I need to sleep on this.

[Town looter]

Eh I am going to follow Glitch's lead on this one as from my point of view, I can say exactly the same thing about you and Ralph (that there is no need to elim either one of you).

What really needs to happen is we both go away and see if we can come up with a definitive read one way or the other: you determine which out of Titus or I is scum, and I determine which out of you and Ralph is scum.

[Town looter]

I suspect Looter's reason for a fast TR on Glitch is a pocket attempt.

Except that I have been (warily) TRing Glitch for the whole game. Now sure, I could've been doing this because, if scum, I would know Glitch is town, but the "fast TR" bit seems a bit disingenuous.

@Looter, Supposing Ralph is scum, why should I TR you over Glitch/Jackson?

Based on mechanical information, you shouldn't. I'll quite happily admit my role, and subsequent claim, is the weirdest out of the 3, but I wrote a wall post during one of the night phases that goes into my thinking on this.

Non-mechanical information-wise, this is really up to you. I have a bunch of posts and reactions that makes sense coming from town (like my reaction to Fwesnid claim, and my subsequent reads on that slot), but whether or not you think those are genuine or fake is really up to you.

Now, I suspect you are going to call them fake, given I am almost certain you are scum.

Also I haven't written off a Ralph/JV scum team, it's just in the realm of high paranoia mode.

[Town looter]

@Looter, The fact you are insisting you're still a night 3 gunsmith is off. You did a decent fakeclaim, but why not own up to it as either alignment?

Because it's real.

[Town looter]

Key players to analyze:
Players Alive: Titus, Looter, JV, Ralph, Glitch
Flipped Scum: IKSF, SJReaver/Shelly, DDL/Lapsa

[snip]

D1 72offsuit is killed. We eliminated town but at the end of the day, Ralph was not on the town elim wagon and was voting for scum. This means for Ralph to be scum he would have to be bussing DDL from D1. Titus, Looter, and JV were all in support of the town elimination that day.

D2 scum DDL is killed. Ralph continued to maintain his vote on DDL and was on the wagon for the scum elim. Scum team shelly and Flake were on the wagon, along with Ralph, Looter, and JV. Titus was voting for me.

This seems to indicate there is probably two town in Ralph, Looter, and JV as all 4 scum partners voting for their fifth teammate it very unlikely.

Because I am town, and there are probably two town in Ralph, Looter, and JV, this shades Titus pretty seriously.[/b]

D3 we killed town NPOM. Ralph did not have a vote at the elim. JV, Looter, and Titus were all on NPOM for his town flip and one of them has to be scum. Why was Ralph not on board with the town elim D3 if he is scum, especially after voting scum at the end of the day both D1 and D2? Ralph has an excellent voting record so far as scummy as he is.

D4 Titus was not a part of the scum shelly lunch but instead was voting for A50 at the time of the elim. JV and Looter were on the wagon though to lunch shelly. With only three alive that day (shelly, ???, and ???), it is unlikely that both scum partners were voting shelly at the end of the day suggesting there MUST be one town between JV and Looter.

D5 I voted off town!Norway with JV and Titus. With only 2 scum left in the game and 5 to eliminate, it is most likely that one of the two remaining scum were on the Norway wagon, indicating there is one scum between JV and Titus.

D6 is not really helpful at this point as everyone voted for no lunch except JV voting for Ralph which doesn’t help us either.

[snip]

Pretty good analysis. Only thing I don't like is the D4 Elimination. I had a gun guilty on a claimed VT. Scum would've known this is legit (or if in a Scum!Loot scenario they would know it's a bus), so it's likely all scum would have jumped on the wagon, unless they wanted to play some game theory.

[Town looter]

Which is interesting, because both Ralph and Titus were off the wagon lol.

[Town looter]

From a game spec point of view, does my role being real make Jacksons role less likely to be real?

We would have:
- One 3 shot weak investigative (proven, Fwesnid)
- One single shot (night 3) weak investigative (me)
- One full weak investigative (unproven, Glitch)
- One full semi-strong investigative (proven, 72offsuit)
- One partial strong investigative (unproven, JV)

Like, if 72 wasn't killed we would have a crazy amount of mechanical information. Especially seeing as it appears scum don't have a roleblocker (well, they might if it's JV/Titus scum team).

[Town looter]

Regardless of how this goes down, one of Ralph/JV has played very well.

[Town looter]

Ralph and TItus do seem to be on countering sides before I outted my check, it could be that Ralph is planning to yeet themself in hopes of Titus getting enough credit to win through tomorrow.

Ralph Titus should be an impossibility. Ralph Titus doesn't kill Ydrasse there, leaving a terrible bind. The autoloss scenario. Let's suppose that Ralph/Titus decided to leave Jackson alive to cop them, despite knowing Jackson was unprotected. The next logical kill would be Glitch to prevent from being caught comitting a kill.

Not killing either of these two suggests a team that couldn't kill safely. No one else kills Ydrasse there.

Except we are in ELo. And WIFOM is a thing.

Leaving Jackson alive is great WIFOM-based cover for you because it gives your babysitter claim more support. It's a risky play, but it's a good one.

[Town looter]

Interesting. I hadn't considered the Ralph/Titus multitasking thing.

It does put me in a weird position. Mechanically I had almost lock-scum on Titus.

But without Titus being multi-tasking Ralph and Titus simply cannot exist... except. Who did you visit the night Norway, Stanley and MM died Titus?

I had a quick skim but couldn't seem to find it.

[Town looter]

I checked again. Interestingly we did not ask Titus who they checked on the day after Titus died.

Which is the night Ralph returned a negative.

Curiosuly, JV got to this way before I did (5669), but didn't think to ask who Titus baby sat...

[Town looter]

Also the game designer is a fan of multitasking, so it wouldn't surprise me if it was used in the setup.

From Schadd's wiki page: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... r_list.png

[Town looter]

If ralph is scum, titus is clear btw due to the motion detect

If ralph is scum, titus is clear btw due to the motion detect

Or in other words they're a SvT at the most unless titus is multitasking

pedit: Glitch motion detected ralph didn't they? That means they didn't visit and Titus is loud so we know who they visited. Both confirmed that they didn't kill (unless multitasking or ninja) and thus cannot be scum together.

I didn't really think of ninja tbh

This is nagging at me.

Here JV effectively confirm's Titus' visit. I didn't understand it at the time, because we didn't know JV was visited - it only makes sense if you know Titus used their night activity.

The bit I don't like is I think Town!JV would have confirmed Titus' visit, where as in a scum JV/Titus team, the visit would have been planned and JV would have known about it in advance, and it may not of been front of mind.

That is, I think:

Town!JV would've said "I got visited by Titus last night, and therefore Titus/Ralph team is impossible without multi-tasking"
Scum!JV would've made the posts above.

Given what you are saying about Ralph's VCA Glitch and given the incredible power of JV's role (which doesn't seem to stack up) I am feeling about 60/40 in favour of Scum!JV right now.

I looked back at my old notes, and funnily enough was SRing JV in the first part of the game. They started sounding very towny around page 60-70ish iirc, but I wonder if I was onto something here.

Still haven't done a ISO and full association analysis, I have been busy at work so only don reactive and mechanical thinking - but will get stuck into the ISOs this weekend.

[Town looter]

Sorry team.

I have been on a bit of a bender this weekend, so brain is pretty useless. I'm gonna have a doze and maybe revisit tonight.

[Town looter]

Sorry guys, I know I am holding up proceedings.

I think there is a few holes in your plan JV:

- It's irrelevant if Ralph isn't scum, and JV is - remember Glitch, we lose if this is the case. I don't want you to doubt yourself right now - leave your respective SR/TR where they are, but I do ask you give me a chance to case JV. This is on me though and I WILL be casing JV/Ralph in the next 24 hours

- If Ralph is scum, from my point of view, the motion detecting will not give a reliable result: any check on me will almost certainly be positive, unless there's a no kill, in which it will be negative. Either way, the motion detection is going to implicate me,

regardless of my alignment

:

• If I am scum, and there's a kill: Obviously positive.
  
• If I am town, JV is town and Titus is scum: Titus will visit me with their loud PR, and kill with multitasking, or no kill and not visit me
  
• If I am town, JV is scum and Titus is town: JV will either no kill, or kill me (he can't kill Glitch, and won't kill Titus because it would clear me)
  
• If I am town, JV is town and Titus is town: Motion detector result is fake because Glitch is scum