Alisae V Pine: Trees Apparently Make Good Treestumps

[mastina]

VOTE: Aristophanes
Last game, Pine first picked Aristophanes to be scum.
Pine would never do the same thing twice.
Therefore, Aristophanes is scum.

My logic is flawless.

[mastina]

Skygazer
MariaR
Gamma Emerald
Firebringer
Chickadee
xofelf
chennisden
Dannflor
PenguinPower
Formerfish
Menalque
Pink Ball
Untrod Tripod
Katsuki
GreyICE
Lady Lambdadelta
Krazy
popsofctown
DrippingGoofball
Ankamius
jjh
Aristophanes

[mastina]

It's a bit early for a readlist

Would you have it any other way?

[mastina]

I thought I'd get a PR for sure

Same.

[mastina]

It's one of the 3 valid reasons Mastina could have for putting me near the bottom of her readslist but I won't go into the other 2.

You're at the bottom because you're scum.

[mastina]

okay I need to get the fuck out of this thread posting is too fucking addicting
bye bye

Same.

[mastina]

BTW debated on whether or not to actually claim this, but ehhhhh, fuckit, I'll take the risk.
I'm a bulletproof vigilante with a "masonry" (read: neighborhood) with Pine.
Decided to claim because neighbor with confscum, Vig I won't use, and Pine probably already guessed the bp part, so.

[mastina]

Not sure with how willing people are on fire when it comes to that but like also
I really think Pine’s dreamteam is
Firebringer, Gamma Emerald, jjh, the worst, Katsuki, and GreyICE
And if thats the fucking team I am going to shit bricks dude

Damn. Ali got half of you. This may be more difficult than expected.

Fruit is a game mechanic, read the OP

Oh, Pine hands them out for WIFOM purposes. Gee. So Katsuki was goodvoting I see.

Pull back the wide-eyed innocence, it's awkward on you

You commented on Alisae's guess accuracy but not mine. I feel neglected.

[mastina]

Skygazer
MariaR
Gamma Emerald
Firebringer
Chickadee
chennisden
Iconeum
Dannflor
PenguinPower
Formerfish
Menalque
Pink Ball
Lady Lambdadelta
Untrod Tripod
Katsuki
xofelf
GreyICE
the worst
Krazy
popsofctown
DrippingGoofball
Ankamius
jjh
Aristophanes

[mastina]

I just got a message and now I'm scared

Oh I supposed that's something which should be claimed, yeah. Surprised Pine's willing to poke himself.





(If you got a message you get this joke.)

[mastina]

Oh whoops, it's not into the tree, it's FROM the trees. Joke doesn't work then.

[mastina]

<3 Ali

[mastina]

Small confession: I've been skimming about 80% of the pages offline: I haven't read every page, there's many pages that I missed, and the pages that I did read I didn't really put more than the bare minimum into.

I haven't been commenting tho because I've wanted to read in detail all the pages and give commentary on key issues, but the thread creating new content faster than I could respond to it makes the task daunting, so the intimidation factor has kept me from weighing in.

There's only about half a dozen (maybe like eight total) posts which I want to respond to, but I can't remember where they are off the top of my head and would need to read to find them.

In the mean time, tho:
LLD, regardless of her alignment, is a distraction.
Town, scum, doesn't matter. Pine wants us to be focusing attention on her.
Personally: while I recognize that there are reasons for both LLD and GreyIce to be scum, I think that at most one of them would be, and that it's quite probable that both are town in spite of my reasons to find them suspect.

Ditto for LLD/xofelf. I recognize the validity of LLD's case, but while I see the logic, I'm not convinced that it's actually right.

I am quite dead serious about my jjh/Aristophanes scumreads; I am sure AT LEAST one of them is scum, quite possibly both.

There's other players who I should give feedback on, but I wanted to do so on a full readslist wallpost where I explain where I am coming from on all of them.

[mastina]

Full Commuter sounds amazing for scum!Lexi tho

My main suspicion on lld is exactly this, the role claim being one which feels more like scum than town, but I can still imagine it as a town role albeit one which doesn't mesh well with others.

[mastina]

Okay, I'm just going to go into this now because this shit is very relevant to my alignment.

1. I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that Jingle almost always drafts me in his first set of picks; if not his first, always his second. He's seen enough of how I play

and I've literally HARD STOMPED HIS SCUMTEAM

before. He's either modded or played in a lot of my stronger games on my main account this year, and he was in my strongest scum game of this year. Because of this,

Pine has to draft me first if he wants me on his team

. He can't rely on being able to pick me for his team after the first draft, and that's even assuming that he is aware of Jingle and my history on the site.

2. The way I'm playing this game makes absolutely no sense for scum!me. I'm very well aware of my weaknesses as scum, most notably being that I am able to fake the majority of my towntells, but not at the same time. I can't hyperpost, make believable trajectories, AND be consistent tonally at the same time. In this game, I have been among the top posters for a lot of the game, outputted a lot of reads, and yet nobody has been able to pick up on any major tonal discrepancies up to this point. This is my scumgame of the century in the case that I'm actually scum this game.

3. I'm purposely holding myself back. I'm partially doing this because of the hyperposting thing and I don't want to create another Starry Night out of respect for those that don't want very fast games, but the more prevalent reason for why I'm holding myself back is because

it will not end well if I go hard and start going by my own rules and mindset towards how I play.

I work best when I have enough sway over the game to get the flips I need to narrow down the game to a winnable state, and I learned a harsh lesson from Anuket Topaz that when I try to go that route when there's enough leader/rebellious/etc. types in the game, I compromise my own ability to reach the flips I want and tilt out of the game, literally becoming useless to everybody. This playerlist is very very likely to resist me if I go this route and just cause a bunch of drama bullshit in the thread that it really doesn't need. It's better for me to hold back and do what I can from the background to keep the playerlist focused.

4. I'm pretty much always a nightkill by scum this game as town, most likely in midgame somewhere before I hit my stride and start hitting outright solves. I'd be surprised if scum didn't have at least one person that was aware of this, and Pine has seen a recent enough example to believe it.

5. Alisae, this is specifically to you: I've literally never played with Menalque before. I don't know how he plays. He fits the specific type of player I've been trying to hunt for because the way I'm seeing the game, that specific type is the most likely to hold scum. His response to me was horrific. At best, he has a playstyle that will always result in false positives for me, but I don't actually understand what about him is townreadable unless he just has one of those weird playstyles I can't actually read.

And.
What if I told you.
That in my planned readslist wallpost where I'd explain my read on you.
The entirety of what I was going to say was,
"There's only one world in which Ank is town, and that's if Jingle sniped her before Pine could pick her up"?

[mastina]

"There's only one world in which Ank is town, and that's if Jingle sniped her before Pine could pick her up"?

yes because your such a master at figuring out what pine would do.

Kind of, yes. Last time that I was town, I caught 2/3 of his scum picks. Not immediately, but before the end of D1.
So, yes.

Statement stands. Ank would only be town if Jingle stole her from Pine. Admittedly that's fully possible; Pine might not first pick her whereas Jingle very well might. But I have very good reason to believe that Pine wanted Ank on his scumteam, and that Jingle wanted her to be town.

[mastina]

SHOOT HER

[mastina]

im sorry i was laughing and enjoying myself and you weren't
it was a bad joke

For what it's worth, while I am a certifiable moron, you'd have to be a whole level of stupid far more than I could ever muster in even my derpiest of moments to Vig Ank N1. That's never the right power role to use on her N1.

[mastina]

Skygazer/Titus
^When it comes to Skygazer, I will admit: I am quite aware that Skygazer is the perfect pocket pick for Pine to make as scum. She's a smooth operator when it comes to worming her way through towns, and yet she's lowkey enough that none would really suspect her of doing so. A solid choice for him to make. So why is she my top townread? Because while I know she'd be a perfect pick for Pine, she's just an obvtown slot.

Plus.
If replacements in this game work anything like in previous iterations of the game.
Pine controls who replaces into his scumteam and Jingle controls who replaces into the town, and Titus is more of a Jingle replacement than a Pine replacement. Yes, there's value in Titus being scum, but it's a pick more likely to come from Jingle.

Ankamius
^I said it before: the only way Ankamius is town is if Jingle sniped her away from Pine before Pine could pick her. The thing is, I actually believe that's exactly what happened. It's dangerous territory to tread, but I legit think that when Pine said that Jingle did snipe away picks from him that he wanted, he was telling the truth--and Ankamius would be an obvious example of exactly that. This is why she's much higher up on my readslist compared to where she previously was.

MariaR
^Pine could pick MariaR because she's an absurdly good scum player and not really the best town player. Could. I don't think he did tho. I admit, I don't have any logic, any reasoning behind this. Just gut, that she's town this game.

Gamma Emerald
^Gamma's similar to MariaR, but better as town and worse as scum. Still GOOD as scum, and reasonably decent as town. So Pine could pick Gamma. I just don't think he did. Again, no reasoning tho. Just gut. I know from experience I can't really read Gamma, but I just FEEL Gamma's town.

Firebringer
^Firebringer is the ultimate slot of me being utterly unable to read him. Like, I think my read accuracy on him sits at some impressive number like out of 40 games having it at like 5%? No joke, it's that low. I can't read him and I don't really have a metric for whether Pine would recruit him or not. He's an underestimated player regardless of his alignment. Skilled town, skilled scum, but with a playstyle which makes you think he's neither. So he'd be a decent pick for Pine, I know this. And I also know that I can't read him. But in spite of that. I agree with those who say he looks town; if I had to guess, I would think exactly that.

Chickadee
^Honestly the only way Chickadee is scum is if Pine deliberately chose her as a pocket pick nobody would expect, think like the Aristophanes of last game. Admittedly, that's not impossible--after all, Pine did in fact pick Aristophanes last game. But while it's not impossible, I don't think it particularly probable. I'm not really feeling Chickadee as scum. This feels like her usual towngame performances I've seen. Admittedly, I am unfamiliar with her scumgame; I have seen her multiple times as town but I can't recall the last time she was scum. So this is a flawed perspective especially since Pine gives coaching to his partners on how to play. But push come to shove, lacking any alternative assessment, she's town to me.

Pink Ball
^This is probably Pink Ball's towngame. It's not definitive. It's questionable. But I'm willing to take the gamble on it. Sure, he's underperforming, but I don't think the underperformance is because he's scum; I actually think if anything it's kinda proof that he's town. I do think that Pink Ball could be selected by Pine; he knows PB's good regardless of his alignment, denying him from the town would be smart and he'd still deliver as scum. But if I had to guess, I'd say he didn't.

Iconeum
^If Iconeum has contributed content, I've missed it in my not-very-thorough reading of the game. He's someone Pine could select as a pocket pick; he's not incompetent as scum and is someone who can fly under the radar for ages. I initially placed him under chennisden (see below) for exactly this reason. However, that having been said. I've seen Iconeum as scum recently. He doesn't seem to be the same Iconeum from that game, and that's why I bumped him up to here; I know I should probably investigate this more, but for now I'm okay calling him weakly town.


chennisden
^This is about where my null list starts. I don't have a read on chennis one way or another. I also have no clue how Pine would assess him.

Dannflor
^Dannflor is an amazing town player but I've zero idea how Pine would think of him in terms of selecting him as a scumbuddy. That having been said: his play this game is incredibly underwhelming given what he's capable of. It's a little bit iffy as a result.

PenguinPower
^Honestly does PP play the game much regardless of his alignment? I get the impression that regardless of his alignment 95+% of his posting's just going to be memeing. Pine could easily select PP, but I've no gauge on whether he actually did or not.

Formerfish
^Formerfish is another player who, in spite of his content thusfar, I'm finding difficult to get a grasp on. He's the kind of pocket pick I can see Pine making, but I can't really tell if Pine did or not.

Menalque
^To be honest. Menalque's someone I probably scumread regardless of his alignment, not gonna lie here. I believe we've played twice together and I scumread him both times--sure, in one game he was scum, but in the other game he was town and I'm not sure I can tell the difference between the two. I can say that as town he seemed to give more content than as scum, which would be a bad sign for him this game, but he's also not exactly showing the things I'd expect from him as scum, which is a promising sign.

Untrod Tripod/xReckonerx
^Pine knows that UT can carry a scumgame and Reck is the type of replacement Pine would love to make. So I can easily see this being a scum slot. That having been said. While I can see it as a scum slot, there's nothing which makes me convinced it IS a scum slot. Gun to my head I'd actually lean otherwise, which honestly makes me think he might be placed too low, but I've been debating on whether he's too high or too low on my readslist a lot because I'm weary of the slot, which is why he's here.


GreyICE
^There are reasons GreyICE could be town. Namely, if LLD is scum then GreyICE isn't because while they COULD bus like this easily and it's within their scum metas to do so in this fashion, I don't think Pine would approve--not because of any strategic reason, mind you. Just because the resulting gamestate from their fight is INCREDIBLY unfun and Pine wouldn't want to win because his scumteam orchestrated an unfun gamestate for the game.

There are also fairly strong reasons for GreyICE to be scum.
He's used meta, when he is a strong proponent of meta being bullshit.
His play is vastly underwhelming because aside from pushing LLD he's done basically nothing.
He's someone that Pine knows is good at both town and scum and is someone Pine could easily pick to get some oldguard in the game.
So overall this is where my "could be scum" list starts.

Katsuki
^Pine picked Katsuki as a replacement in the first iteration of this game for damn good reason. Katsuki's a skilled scum player, who also has a knack for pulling impressive townplays if left unchecked, so picking Katsuki is a good denial pick. That having been said, while I think Katsuki's play here could be scum, I know that Katsuki's alignment should become more obvious as the game progresses and right now I'm not sure it's scum.

DrippingGoofball
^Honestly DGB's a bit past her prime. She used to be one of the best town/scum players in the old meta but in the current meta she's only so-so. She's this low for a combination of "Pine could pick her because of nostalgia and hoping to bring back her at her prime" and her play being vastly underwhelming, but that having been said, similar to UT/Reck, I've debated on her positioning here; I almost put her much much higher in my readslist because I'm not convinced she's scum.


xofelf
^When I made my original readslist, xofelf was quite high up. This was through a combination of reasons. I didn't believe Pine would be a dick enough to make her be scum and have such an unfun time and I liked the content which she had given. LLD's case made me reconsider both of these points. I am not

convinced

that LLD's case was on the money, on point, accurate and correct. But if nothing else I admit it has

merit

to it, and the idea is certainly at least plausible. I'm not convinced it's

probable

, but the plausibility of Pine picking xofelf as scum exists enough for her to be about here.

Lady Lambdadelta
^Honestly my main suspicion on LLD is the Commuter claim in that it is a role that Pine would want more than Jingle would, it is a role which feels like there's better players for Jingle to give it to, and it is a role that feels like it'd mesh poorly with other town roles in the setup. These are all very solid reasons for LLD's claim to be suspect. But I can also see the other side; I can understand why LLD's Commuter role could be something Jingle would give her. I understand that Commuter IS a role Jingle could use, in spite of it probably meshing poorly with other town roles in the setup; I actually can see the logic and reasoning behind Jingle giving it to her even if I think there's better choices.

From a pick perspective, LLD would be a player of high value to Pine, but also to Jingle. She is a VERY strong scum player and a damn good town player, too. She is also an obvious choice for Pine to pick--Pine can choose obvious choices, but he's under no obligation to do so. Plus, there's the whole matter of how regardless of her alignment, she's a distraction.

Ali, I disagree that lynching her removes her as a distraction. You know why? Because once she flips, regardless of what she flips, the division between the town established today from the two sides, those fighting for her being scum and those fighting for her being town, will continue after her death. Whichever side was right will feel vindicated and the distraction will remain after her demise as a consequence of this interaction.

If I had to give a guess, my guess would actually be that she's town. My heart wants her to be scum because I want to believe in the players pushing her as being scum having the right reasoning, having locked on to accurate facts, good sound logic that holds true. But I'm somewhat skeptical of this. I can't really articulate why I'm skeptical, so call the skepticism gut if you must. I'm just hesitant to commit here because while I objectively see all the reasons for her to be scum, something about it doesn't feel right.

Also, sidenote: the jjh-Aristophanes division on her feels ridiculously orchestrated by Pine.


popsofctown
^I'll be honest, I don't really have much of a read here and have no clue how Pine would treat pops. Pops is this low purely through gut reaction of me not liking what I've seen. I've no judgement on the accuracy of this gut, but it's all I'm going on.


the worst
^If the worst is town this game, he is vastly, VASTLY underperforming. This feels a lot more like his scumgame than his towngame to me. He's also the kind of player I think that Pine's more likely to pick and while I can see Jingle having selected him, I think that balance of probabilities, this is probably not his towngame. I know that the worst can as town have vastly underwhelming performances as town and that the worst as scum doesn't necessarily underperform. But I just feel like it's more likely in this case for this game that the worst is scum underperforming not town underperforming.

Krazy
^So my thoughts on Krazy can be summed up as: If Pine picked Krazy to be scum, it would be a dick move. Pine would know from experience that Krazy is burned out from playing scum and wouldn't have much fun in the role. Pine would know that while Krazy is an amazing town player, he's only so-so as a scum player. But the reason I think that Pine could pick Krazy in spite of it being a dick move is a combination of:
1: Pine could feel that, with his involvement in the scum PT, he could revitalize Krazy's scumplay. He could see it as a challenge, to try and make Krazy have fun in a role he currently abhors.
2: Pine could value Krazy as a player to help balance and round out his scumteam composition.
3: Pine could pick Krazy to deny the town access to one of its better scumhunters, which is especially true if Pine was denied the chance to grab Ankamius. (You don't want Ankamius and Krazy to be able to work together.)
4: Krazy is not an obvious choice to pick, which means that Pine could get away with it without anybody really thinking about it.
Probably more reasons that I am forgetting about.

So there's a case to be made both ways. I can see Pine thinking Krazy's a good pick; I can see Pine not picking Krazy. Heck, I can even see Jingle denying Pine the chance to pick Krazy albeit not as likely as with Ank.

So why is Krazy so low?

Because my stance on him thusfar this game can be summed up as such: I haven't seen anything which makes me particularly townread him, nor have I seen anything which makes me particularly scumread him.

The last time I had that stance on him...he was scum.

So I think that it's more likely that he's scum.


jjh
^jjh is a scumread because simply put he's scum this game.

Aristophanes
^You know my initial joke reasoning for scumreading Ari? Not in any way a joke. Aristophanes was a clutch pick by Pine last game. The entirety of the scumteam--Aristophanes included--thought that Pine first picking Aristophanes last game was basically Pine trolling/borderline gamethrowing. But last game, the entire reason the scumteam won was BECAUSE Pine first picked Aristophanes as scum.

Now, Pine probably, legitimately, wouldn't first pick Aristophanes as scum again, that much is probably true. But I still think that Pine picked Aristophanes as scum anyway. In part, because people wouldn't think he'd do it twice. In part, because Aristophanes is fun to have as a scumbuddy. In part, because Aristophanes would be a glue to help hold the team comp whatever it is together. In part, because Aristophanes still had room to grow and one of the things Pine likes to do in these games is to coach his scumbuddies into growing as scum players, to become better at scumplay than they were before and Aristophanes still had room to grow.

Aristophanes had stated that he always has looked up to me to perform well as scum and while I'm not scum this game so he wouldn't have me to be that direct source of inspiration, he'd still have good reason to try and impress, to do his best, to exceed any and all expectations of him as scum. And I think that his play here is exactly that. I think that his play here is his evolved top-form scumplay, not his signature townplay.


I realize that I have far too few townreads and far too many suspects and far far FAR too many people who I am wishy-washy about. But this is the best I can offer given this gamestate.

[mastina]

You know mastina you make some good point but some of them if seems like you don't see the worth

Explicitly so, yes? Some of the picks I don't see the worth in them--that doesn't mean that there isn't any worth in them. If there were a player Pine wouldn't at least

plausibly

have reason to recruit, simply put: they wouldn't be in this game. Every player has at least a possible reason Pine would want them. But while I feel like I have at least a reasonable grasp on many of these reasons, fucked if I know what all of them would be.

I generally have reasonably good psychological profiles of players and have some idea of Pine's own profiles of players but explicitly these two profiles while there's overlap are not identical. My psychological profiles won't match his psychological profiles perfectly so there will always be picks where I don't see the worth in them that he does and there will always be picks that I see the worth in them which barely if at all entered into his mind.

[mastina]

Because while I know she'd be a perfect pick for Pine, she's just an obvtown slot.

Huh? I mean I know I'm not one to comment on an empty iso, but are we reading a different set of ten posts or something?

Apparently.

Mastina, do you want to maybe talk to me now that it's absolutely certain you're not doing that thing where you pretend to scumread me and see who jumps on

Not gonna outright say I won't do that sometime, but will decline to do so right now. Just not in the mood to be honest.

[mastina]

VOTE: Krazy.
May or may not be counted depending on whether a hammer has happened or not, but doesn't matter--this is a statement on read strength. Aristophanes is still scum; jjh is still scum. But Krazy went from probably scum to just definitely scum.

[mastina]

VOTE: Krazy.
May or may not be counted depending on whether a hammer has happened or not, but doesn't matter--this is a statement on read strength. Aristophanes is still scum; jjh is still scum. But Krazy went from probably scum to just definitely scum.

To be clear I recognize that there are three other scum in the game and while I have reads which suggest that they could be some players those reads aren't definitive.

These three are scum tho so my vote won't leave one of those three.

[mastina]

VOTE: Krazy.
May or may not be counted depending on whether a hammer has happened or not, but doesn't matter--this is a statement on read strength. Aristophanes is still scum; jjh is still scum. But Krazy went from probably scum to just definitely scum.

To be clear I recognize that there are three other scum in the game and while I have reads which suggest that they could be some players those reads aren't definitive.

These three are scum tho so my vote won't leave one of those three.

Basically: players like xofelf could be one of the three other scum.
I recognize that.
But I'll be voting the definite scum over the possible, plausible, or even probable scum. Because definite scum > probable scum > plausible scum > possible scum.

And Krazy, jjh, and Aristophanes are all lockscum.

[mastina]

Skygazer/Titus
^When it comes to Skygazer, I will admit: I am quite aware that Skygazer is the perfect pocket pick for Pine to make as scum. She's a smooth operator when it comes to worming her way through towns, and yet she's lowkey enough that none would really suspect her of doing so. A solid choice for him to make. So why is she my top townread? Because while I know she'd be a perfect pick for Pine, she's just an obvtown slot.

Plus.
If replacements in this game work anything like in previous iterations of the game.
Pine controls who replaces into his scumteam and Jingle controls who replaces into the town, and Titus is more of a Jingle replacement than a Pine replacement. Yes, there's value in Titus being scum, but it's a pick more likely to come from Jingle.

Ankamius
^I said it before: the only way Ankamius is town is if Jingle sniped her away from Pine before Pine could pick her. The thing is, I actually believe that's exactly what happened. It's dangerous territory to tread, but I legit think that when Pine said that Jingle did snipe away picks from him that he wanted, he was telling the truth--and Ankamius would be an obvious example of exactly that. This is why she's much higher up on my readslist compared to where she previously was.

MariaR
^Pine could pick MariaR because she's an absurdly good scum player and not really the best town player. Could. I don't think he did tho. I admit, I don't have any logic, any reasoning behind this. Just gut, that she's town this game.

Gamma Emerald
^Gamma's similar to MariaR, but better as town and worse as scum. Still GOOD as scum, and reasonably decent as town. So Pine could pick Gamma. I just don't think he did. Again, no reasoning tho. Just gut. I know from experience I can't really read Gamma, but I just FEEL Gamma's town.

Firebringer
^Firebringer is the ultimate slot of me being utterly unable to read him. Like, I think my read accuracy on him sits at some impressive number like out of 40 games having it at like 5%? No joke, it's that low. I can't read him and I don't really have a metric for whether Pine would recruit him or not. He's an underestimated player regardless of his alignment. Skilled town, skilled scum, but with a playstyle which makes you think he's neither. So he'd be a decent pick for Pine, I know this. And I also know that I can't read him. But in spite of that. I agree with those who say he looks town; if I had to guess, I would think exactly that.

Chickadee
^Honestly the only way Chickadee is scum is if Pine deliberately chose her as a pocket pick nobody would expect, think like the Aristophanes of last game. Admittedly, that's not impossible--after all, Pine did in fact pick Aristophanes last game. But while it's not impossible, I don't think it particularly probable. I'm not really feeling Chickadee as scum. This feels like her usual towngame performances I've seen. Admittedly, I am unfamiliar with her scumgame; I have seen her multiple times as town but I can't recall the last time she was scum. So this is a flawed perspective especially since Pine gives coaching to his partners on how to play. But push come to shove, lacking any alternative assessment, she's town to me.

Pink Ball
^This is probably Pink Ball's towngame. It's not definitive. It's questionable. But I'm willing to take the gamble on it. Sure, he's underperforming, but I don't think the underperformance is because he's scum; I actually think if anything it's kinda proof that he's town. I do think that Pink Ball could be selected by Pine; he knows PB's good regardless of his alignment, denying him from the town would be smart and he'd still deliver as scum. But if I had to guess, I'd say he didn't.

Iconeum
^If Iconeum has contributed content, I've missed it in my not-very-thorough reading of the game. He's someone Pine could select as a pocket pick; he's not incompetent as scum and is someone who can fly under the radar for ages. I initially placed him under chennisden (see below) for exactly this reason. However, that having been said. I've seen Iconeum as scum recently. He doesn't seem to be the same Iconeum from that game, and that's why I bumped him up to here; I know I should probably investigate this more, but for now I'm okay calling him weakly town.


chennisden
^This is about where my null list starts. I don't have a read on chennis one way or another. I also have no clue how Pine would assess him.

Dannflor
^Dannflor is an amazing town player but I've zero idea how Pine would think of him in terms of selecting him as a scumbuddy. That having been said: his play this game is incredibly underwhelming given what he's capable of. It's a little bit iffy as a result.

PenguinPower
^Honestly does PP play the game much regardless of his alignment? I get the impression that regardless of his alignment 95+% of his posting's just going to be memeing. Pine could easily select PP, but I've no gauge on whether he actually did or not.

Formerfish
^Formerfish is another player who, in spite of his content thusfar, I'm finding difficult to get a grasp on. He's the kind of pocket pick I can see Pine making, but I can't really tell if Pine did or not.

Menalque
^To be honest. Menalque's someone I probably scumread regardless of his alignment, not gonna lie here. I believe we've played twice together and I scumread him both times--sure, in one game he was scum, but in the other game he was town and I'm not sure I can tell the difference between the two. I can say that as town he seemed to give more content than as scum, which would be a bad sign for him this game, but he's also not exactly showing the things I'd expect from him as scum, which is a promising sign.

Untrod Tripod/xReckonerx
^Pine knows that UT can carry a scumgame and Reck is the type of replacement Pine would love to make. So I can easily see this being a scum slot. That having been said. While I can see it as a scum slot, there's nothing which makes me convinced it IS a scum slot. Gun to my head I'd actually lean otherwise, which honestly makes me think he might be placed too low, but I've been debating on whether he's too high or too low on my readslist a lot because I'm weary of the slot, which is why he's here.


GreyICE
^There are reasons GreyICE could be town. Namely, if LLD is scum then GreyICE isn't because while they COULD bus like this easily and it's within their scum metas to do so in this fashion, I don't think Pine would approve--not because of any strategic reason, mind you. Just because the resulting gamestate from their fight is INCREDIBLY unfun and Pine wouldn't want to win because his scumteam orchestrated an unfun gamestate for the game.

There are also fairly strong reasons for GreyICE to be scum.
He's used meta, when he is a strong proponent of meta being bullshit.
His play is vastly underwhelming because aside from pushing LLD he's done basically nothing.
He's someone that Pine knows is good at both town and scum and is someone Pine could easily pick to get some oldguard in the game.
So overall this is where my "could be scum" list starts.

Katsuki
^Pine picked Katsuki as a replacement in the first iteration of this game for damn good reason. Katsuki's a skilled scum player, who also has a knack for pulling impressive townplays if left unchecked, so picking Katsuki is a good denial pick. That having been said, while I think Katsuki's play here could be scum, I know that Katsuki's alignment should become more obvious as the game progresses and right now I'm not sure it's scum.

DrippingGoofball
^Honestly DGB's a bit past her prime. She used to be one of the best town/scum players in the old meta but in the current meta she's only so-so. She's this low for a combination of "Pine could pick her because of nostalgia and hoping to bring back her at her prime" and her play being vastly underwhelming, but that having been said, similar to UT/Reck, I've debated on her positioning here; I almost put her much much higher in my readslist because I'm not convinced she's scum.


xofelf
^When I made my original readslist, xofelf was quite high up. This was through a combination of reasons. I didn't believe Pine would be a dick enough to make her be scum and have such an unfun time and I liked the content which she had given. LLD's case made me reconsider both of these points. I am not

convinced

that LLD's case was on the money, on point, accurate and correct. But if nothing else I admit it has

merit

to it, and the idea is certainly at least plausible. I'm not convinced it's

probable

, but the plausibility of Pine picking xofelf as scum exists enough for her to be about here.

Lady Lambdadelta
^Honestly my main suspicion on LLD is the Commuter claim in that it is a role that Pine would want more than Jingle would, it is a role which feels like there's better players for Jingle to give it to, and it is a role that feels like it'd mesh poorly with other town roles in the setup. These are all very solid reasons for LLD's claim to be suspect. But I can also see the other side; I can understand why LLD's Commuter role could be something Jingle would give her. I understand that Commuter IS a role Jingle could use, in spite of it probably meshing poorly with other town roles in the setup; I actually can see the logic and reasoning behind Jingle giving it to her even if I think there's better choices.

From a pick perspective, LLD would be a player of high value to Pine, but also to Jingle. She is a VERY strong scum player and a damn good town player, too. She is also an obvious choice for Pine to pick--Pine can choose obvious choices, but he's under no obligation to do so. Plus, there's the whole matter of how regardless of her alignment, she's a distraction.

Ali, I disagree that lynching her removes her as a distraction. You know why? Because once she flips, regardless of what she flips, the division between the town established today from the two sides, those fighting for her being scum and those fighting for her being town, will continue after her death. Whichever side was right will feel vindicated and the distraction will remain after her demise as a consequence of this interaction.

If I had to give a guess, my guess would actually be that she's town. My heart wants her to be scum because I want to believe in the players pushing her as being scum having the right reasoning, having locked on to accurate facts, good sound logic that holds true. But I'm somewhat skeptical of this. I can't really articulate why I'm skeptical, so call the skepticism gut if you must. I'm just hesitant to commit here because while I objectively see all the reasons for her to be scum, something about it doesn't feel right.

Also, sidenote: the jjh-Aristophanes division on her feels ridiculously orchestrated by Pine.


popsofctown
^I'll be honest, I don't really have much of a read here and have no clue how Pine would treat pops. Pops is this low purely through gut reaction of me not liking what I've seen. I've no judgement on the accuracy of this gut, but it's all I'm going on.


the worst
^If the worst is town this game, he is vastly, VASTLY underperforming. This feels a lot more like his scumgame than his towngame to me. He's also the kind of player I think that Pine's more likely to pick and while I can see Jingle having selected him, I think that balance of probabilities, this is probably not his towngame. I know that the worst can as town have vastly underwhelming performances as town and that the worst as scum doesn't necessarily underperform. But I just feel like it's more likely in this case for this game that the worst is scum underperforming not town underperforming.

Krazy
^So my thoughts on Krazy can be summed up as: If Pine picked Krazy to be scum, it would be a dick move. Pine would know from experience that Krazy is burned out from playing scum and wouldn't have much fun in the role. Pine would know that while Krazy is an amazing town player, he's only so-so as a scum player. But the reason I think that Pine could pick Krazy in spite of it being a dick move is a combination of:
1: Pine could feel that, with his involvement in the scum PT, he could revitalize Krazy's scumplay. He could see it as a challenge, to try and make Krazy have fun in a role he currently abhors.
2: Pine could value Krazy as a player to help balance and round out his scumteam composition.
3: Pine could pick Krazy to deny the town access to one of its better scumhunters, which is especially true if Pine was denied the chance to grab Ankamius. (You don't want Ankamius and Krazy to be able to work together.)
4: Krazy is not an obvious choice to pick, which means that Pine could get away with it without anybody really thinking about it.
Probably more reasons that I am forgetting about.

So there's a case to be made both ways. I can see Pine thinking Krazy's a good pick; I can see Pine not picking Krazy. Heck, I can even see Jingle denying Pine the chance to pick Krazy albeit not as likely as with Ank.

So why is Krazy so low?

Because my stance on him thusfar this game can be summed up as such: I haven't seen anything which makes me particularly townread him, nor have I seen anything which makes me particularly scumread him.

The last time I had that stance on him...he was scum.

So I think that it's more likely that he's scum.


jjh
^jjh is a scumread because simply put he's scum this game.

Aristophanes
^You know my initial joke reasoning for scumreading Ari? Not in any way a joke. Aristophanes was a clutch pick by Pine last game. The entirety of the scumteam--Aristophanes included--thought that Pine first picking Aristophanes last game was basically Pine trolling/borderline gamethrowing. But last game, the entire reason the scumteam won was BECAUSE Pine first picked Aristophanes as scum.

Now, Pine probably, legitimately, wouldn't first pick Aristophanes as scum again, that much is probably true. But I still think that Pine picked Aristophanes as scum anyway. In part, because people wouldn't think he'd do it twice. In part, because Aristophanes is fun to have as a scumbuddy. In part, because Aristophanes would be a glue to help hold the team comp whatever it is together. In part, because Aristophanes still had room to grow and one of the things Pine likes to do in these games is to coach his scumbuddies into growing as scum players, to become better at scumplay than they were before and Aristophanes still had room to grow.

Aristophanes had stated that he always has looked up to me to perform well as scum and while I'm not scum this game so he wouldn't have me to be that direct source of inspiration, he'd still have good reason to try and impress, to do his best, to exceed any and all expectations of him as scum. And I think that his play here is exactly that. I think that his play here is his evolved top-form scumplay, not his signature townplay.


I realize that I have far too few townreads and far too many suspects and far far FAR too many people who I am wishy-washy about. But this is the best I can offer given this gamestate.

Sorry that I am quoting the whole post with no spoilers, but phoneposting makes edits/spoiler tags difficult.

I wanted to give some updated thoughts:
I am now more sure about both Chickadee and Pink Ball being town. Dannflor shoots way up to near the top of the townlist, just below Ank. Former fish is tentatively a weak townread. PP is too high; I remembered that Pine would remember how PP mislynched him, demonstrating the value of PP as scum. How much lower, not sure, but he's too high up right now.
Menalque, not sure that he's town enough to be a townread, but he's probably too low on the list.

IF LLD is scum (her attempted self hammer makes that look likely, but it's not definitive), both GreyIce and Katsuki become strong townreads. If lld flips town, they remain where they are.

Notably: regardless of llds flip, xofelfs position doesn't change. This is because if lld is scum, there's the very real chance that her xofelf case was pushing the player she perceived as the weak link on her scumteam.

So regardless of town or scum, xofelf remains plausible scum. She could be town with lld mistaken/pushing for the mislynch; she could be scum lld nailed/decided to bus. I can see it any of those four ways and cannot yet tell which is the most likely.

Still, given that: will lynch jjh, Ari, or Krazy.

[mastina]

Hey mastina I think I asked you some questions. Care to respond?

I will admit that in my skimming through the thread it is fully possible that I missed your questions, but I can tell you that if I saw any questions I thought were worth answering I'd have already answered them.

[mastina]

Like, I'm pretty sure you can give reasoning so I don't understand why you are avoiding it

Mostly lack of interest. If my scumread on you is wrong, you don't need me to explain the erroneous scumread; all you need to do is prove that you are town, something which if you are town you will do without me needing to prompt you on it. Thus far, you have not. But if you are town, you'll do it on your own, given the appropriate time.

If my scumread on you is right,then I only need to explain it when I am pushing for your lynch. That's not happening today and frankly probably isn't happening tomorrow, either.

Either way, I don't really see a need to explain it. I don't see a need to engage you on it. Mind you, that doesn't mean that I have no reason to engage with you; bring up a subject with me which isn't about yourself and I guarantee you that I will either engage with you or if I don't, my lack of engagement is utterly unrelated to you/my scumread and said lack of engagement would exist even if it were Ank making a literally identical post. (Basically, I can't promise that I would engage with you because frankly sometimes I am just not in the mood to engage, but I can promise you that if I failed to engage with you about a non-you-centric subject, said lack of engagement is purely lack of desire to engage with anyone, with you not being singled out.)

[mastina]

BTW on the logic of, "If LLD is scum, Ari must be town because Aristophanes wouldn't hard defend a scumbuddy like that":
No.
Just no.
That logic literally couldn't be any more wrong.

1: Pine is adverse to bussing. He will bus when necessary, but in general dislikes it. While I expect some scum contributed to the lld lynch, more of the scumteam is either going to be neutral or in defense of her.
2: Pine is fond of forming scumblocs. He will encourage scum to defend, even hard defend, each other. That doesn't mean that everyone defending lld is automatically suspect, but it does mean that you should never clear a player for said hard defense of scum.
3: Pine loves to take advantage of "scum would never do that!", and hard defending a scumbuddy is absolutely in this category.
4: Even without Pine's influence, I can envision a scum Aristophanes defending a scumbuddy, because it feels like the kind of move that he would think of.

Also, obviously the whole defense rides on lld flipping scum. Given her attempted self hammer, this is the far more likely outcome of course, but in the event lld flips town, there's a much simpler name for what Ari did: scum whiteknighting the mislynch for cheap towncred.

[mastina]

Vote Count 1.17

Flavor

A HAMMER!

Lady Lambdadelta (13): the worst, Katsuki, Krazy, Formerfish, MariaR, Titus, Jjh927, Gamma Emerald, GreyICE, Firebringer, Dannflor,ankamius, popsofctown,
Aristophanes (2): mastina, chennisden,
xofelf (2): Lady Lambdadelta, Aristophanes,
the worst (1): PenguinPower,
chennisden (1): Iconeum,
Jjh927 (1): DrippingGoofball,
Firebringer (1): Chickadee,
Menalque (0):
ankamius (0):
Iconeum (0):
Krazy (0):
xReckonerx (0):
mastina (0):
PenguinPower (0):
Chickadee (0):
MariaR (0):
Gamma Emerald (0):
DrippingGoofball (0):
popsofctown (0):
GreyICE (0):
Titus (0):
Formerfish (0):
Pink Ball (0):
Dannflor (0):
Katsuki (0):

Alisae is endorsing: Lady Lambdadelta

Not Voting (4): xofelf, xReckonerx, Menalque, Pink Ball,

Deadline: Day 1 will last 10 days, ending on June 17th. This is in (expired on 2019-09-17 15:00:00).

Ducky is V/LA.
Spyconeum is V/LA on Saturdays and Sundays and until the 20th.
Fruit Available: Neighborizor (Requested by Chickadee and Menalque)
Fruit Available: Watcher (Requested by Pink Ball, popsofctown, Gamma Emerald, and Krazy)
If you have mod questions feel free to bold them in the thread with @Jingle or send them to me by PM.
Double checking vote accuracy after I start twilight!

Lazy vca, assuming lld flips scum:
The lld wagon is mostly towndriven. Even if every possible scum on the wagon was scum (the worst, Krazy, jjh, pops), it'd still be 9.5/13.5 town voting her. And that is the MAXIMUM number of scum. Far more likely is 1-3, let's say two.

If lld is scum, and if we go with two scum on, that's three off. Possibilities: chennis, Ari, PP, DGB, xofelf, Reck.
Of that grouping, I'd go Ari > PP = xofelf > DGB = Reck = chennis.
On the wagon, of the four possible scum, it'd go:
Krazy > jjh > the worst > pops.

Those ten most likely contain five scum.
The trick lies in finding which five man combo it is.

My guess of guesses: Ari, PP or xofelf lean PP, Krazy, the worst, jjh or pops with outside chance of chennis.

This is just a hypothetical guess as to a coherent scumteam pick tho. It doesn't reflect read strength; read strength and scumteam guesses not being one and the same is a concept I'm not sure how to explain so hopefully you get the idea without me needing to.

Basically, for my reads, refer to my readslist wall post; for the most likely scumteam combo, refer to here; the two aren't identical even though there is significant overlap between the two.

[mastina]

Speaking of the readslist, to give it without the accompanying wall:
Skygazer/Titus
Ankamius
Dannflor
LLD-scum GreyIce
LLD-scum Katsuki

Chickadee
Pink Ball

MariaR
Gamma Emerald
Firebringer
Formerfish
Iconeum

Menalque

Untrod Tripod/xReckonerx
chennisden

DrippingGoofBall

PenguinPower
xofelf

LLD-town Katsuki
LLD-town GreyIce

popsofctown

the worst

jjh
Aristophanes
Krazy

Thereabouts. This is the best I can give.

[mastina]

super rushed ISO check I think she crumbed Mastina

Fuck this game.
I am a bodyguard.
I bodyguarded Ankamius last night.

[mastina]

super rushed ISO check I think she crumbed Mastina

Fuck this game.
I am a bodyguard.
I bodyguarded Ankamius last night.

ohh go fuck yourself. stop fake claiming.

Not a fakeclaim:

im sorry i was laughing and enjoying myself and you weren't
it was a bad joke

For what it's worth, while I am a certifiable moron, you'd have to be a whole level of stupid far more than I could ever muster in even my derpiest of moments to Vig Ank N1.

That's never the right power role to use on her N1.

You know what IS the right power to use on Ank N1?

A protective, because she will ALWAYS die N1.

[mastina]

You know what IS the right power to use on Ank N1?A protective, because she will ALWAYS die N1.

You do this everytime you fake claim. Ive seen it a dozen times. You rewrite history of your posts to pertend you crumbed shit. Stop lying.

Yeah if you think that's not a real 'crumb you don't know fucking shit.
I PMd the mod about my role, twice, talking about it. Once was telling Jingle "You know I'll never get a successful protection off, right?"
The other was exactly that: telling him, "You know what IS the right role to use on Ank N1?" more or less.
Then there was also submitting the night action where I said that Pine was probably killing someone he thought was a mason, but fuckit, that I was protecting Ank because I wouldn't be able to predict who he'd kill when mason-hunting but COULD predict who would be a probable nightkill.

There is no other player in the game who I would've protected N1.

Least of all given she was my second strongest townread D1.

[mastina]

You know what IS the right power to use on Ank N1?A protective, because she will ALWAYS die N1.

You do this everytime you fake claim. Ive seen it a dozen times. You rewrite history of your posts to pertend you crumbed shit. Stop lying.

Yeah if you think that's not a real 'crumb you don't know fucking shit.
I PMd the mod about my role, twice, talking about it. Once was telling Jingle "You know I'll never get a successful protection off, right?"
The other was exactly that: telling him, "You know what IS the right role to use on Ank N1?" more or less.
Then there was also submitting the night action where I said that Pine was probably killing someone he thought was a mason, but fuckit, that I was protecting Ank because I wouldn't be able to predict who he'd kill when mason-hunting but COULD predict who would be a probable nightkill.

There is no other player in the game who I would've protected N1.

Least of all given she was my second strongest townread D1.

Actually I just realized the mod has incredibly lax rules on quoting. You know what that means?

I can fucking prove it.

Jingle sent me my role PM at about 11:30 am on Saturday. I'm a Bodyguard Loyal Retainer. Each night, I may target a player. Any attempts to kill that player will fail. If I successfully prevent a kill this way, I will die instead.

At 2 PM, I said "You know that bodyguard is a role which I'll never successfully use, right?"

Jingle's response to this:
At about 2:10 pm.

On Wednesday, at 7:15 pm, I told Jingle in a PM:
Quoting this post,
Guess what IS the right power role to use on her N1?


(I love breadcrumbs.)

Then on Friday at 11:22 pm I submitted to Jingle,
Bodyguard: Ankamius
Pine's probably shooting at someone he thinks is a mason but fuckit.

This should be legal by Jingle's rules to quote.
So yes I can fucking prove I am a fucking bodyguard who bodyguarded Ank.

[mastina]

I don't see what Mastina gains by changing her claim now to a failed protective

You know my claim D1 was, explicitly, a joke right?

I have none of those things.

I don't have a neighborhood with Pine.

I don't have a bulletproof (though I considered intentionally "typo"ing 'bp' into 'bg', but when I checked the keyboard and realized how far away the p and g keys were, I decided against it because I thought it might be too obvious if I did).

And I don't have a vig.

That claim was made because I thought it'd both be fun and funny--to get a laugh out of Pine.
It was obviously not my real role.
Like, people immediately after I claimed it called me out on it not being my real role and no fucking duh it wasn't? It was something I thought would give Pine some entertainment, my logic more or less being that in a game designed around the concept of him messing with us, I might as well mess with him back. (But that post contained a kernel of truth, in that I did fully expect for Pine to have figured out what my actual role was. I wasn't playing like a bulletproof role; I was playing as a role with a finite lifespan that was supposed to get itself killed early on. Which is why I went out of my way to provide my readslist; I knew that if I did my job, D1 would be my only chance to do so.)

[mastina]

I thought I'd get a PR for sure

Same.

I knew I'd get a PR.

Pine probably already guessed the bp part, so.

This is where I considered making the typo of bg instead of bp, but opted against doing so.

Full Commuter sounds amazing for scum!Lexi tho

My main suspicion on lld is exactly this, the role claim being one which feels more like scum than town, but I can still imagine it as a town role

albeit one which doesn't mesh well with others.

The reason I said this? Because Bodyguard and Commuter are roles that don't mesh well together. What 'others' would I be referring to if not my own role? I thought I was all-but giving away the fact that I legit was a PR by saying this.

im sorry i was laughing and enjoying myself and you weren't
it was a bad joke

For what it's worth, while I am a certifiable moron, you'd have to be a whole level of stupid far more than I could ever muster in even my derpiest of moments to Vig Ank N1. That's never the right power role to use on her N1.

This is where I breadcrumbed my intended N1 protection--I went out of my way to avoid leaving any hints after that which could've been misconstrued as defending anyone else because at this point I was set in my mind to protect Ank.

Lady Lambdadelta
^Honestly my main suspicion on LLD is the Commuter claim in that it is a role that Pine would want more than Jingle would, it is a role which feels like there's better players for Jingle to give it to,

and it is a role that feels like it'd mesh poorly with other town roles in the setup.

These are all very solid reasons for LLD's claim to be suspect. But I can also see the other side; I can understand why LLD's Commuter role could be something Jingle would give her. I understand that Commuter IS a role Jingle could use,

in spite of it probably meshing poorly with other town roles in the setup

; I actually can see the logic and reasoning behind Jingle giving it to her even if I think there's better choices.

What town roles would I be referring to if not my own?

I literally never refer to generic unspecified town roles unless I am myself one.

[mastina]

You know what IS the right power to use on Ank N1?A protective, because she will ALWAYS die N1.

You do this everytime you fake claim. Ive seen it a dozen times. You rewrite history of your posts to pertend you crumbed shit. Stop lying.

Yeah if you think that's not a real 'crumb you don't know fucking shit.
I PMd the mod about my role, twice, talking about it. Once was telling Jingle "You know I'll never get a successful protection off, right?"
The other was exactly that: telling him, "You know what IS the right role to use on Ank N1?" more or less.
Then there was also submitting the night action where I said that Pine was probably killing someone he thought was a mason, but fuckit, that I was protecting Ank because I wouldn't be able to predict who he'd kill when mason-hunting but COULD predict who would be a probable nightkill.

There is no other player in the game who I would've protected N1.

Least of all given she was my second strongest townread D1.

Actually I just realized the mod has incredibly lax rules on quoting. You know what that means?

I can fucking prove it.

Jingle sent me my role PM at about 11:30 am on Saturday. I'm a Bodyguard Loyal Retainer. Each night, I may target a player. Any attempts to kill that player will fail. If I successfully prevent a kill this way, I will die instead.

At 2 PM, I said "You know that bodyguard is a role which I'll never successfully use, right?"

Jingle's response to this:
At about 2:10 pm.

On Wednesday, at 7:15 pm, I told Jingle in a PM:
Quoting this post,
Guess what IS the right power role to use on her N1?


(I love breadcrumbs.)

Then on Friday at 11:22 pm I submitted to Jingle,
Bodyguard: Ankamius
Pine's probably shooting at someone he thinks is a mason but fuckit.

This should be legal by Jingle's rules to quote.
So yes I can fucking prove I am a fucking bodyguard who bodyguarded Ank.

In fact I am pretty sure I can go one step further and just copy paste the role PM and that by Jingle's rules I won't be modkilled for it, so here you go:
Hello, mastina! I'm Jingle and I'm here to welcome you to Alisae's Revenge! You're a Bodyguard Loyal Retainer to the rightful Lord of the Land, Alisae. Unfortunately, the wicked tree that controls the Dark Forest has been acting up, causing insurrections left and right. Alisae has called an end to this nonsense, and is preparing to ride forth. Some of my messages have been compromised, however, and a few among you were recruited by the terrible monster to put an end to our quest before it even begins!

We must purge our party of those who have no loyalty, or we shall surely fail.

Abilities:

(Bodyguard) Each night, you may target a player. Any attempts to kill that player will fail. If you successfully prevent a kill this way, you will die instead.

The town win condition is: You win when all of Pine's minions have been killed.

The game thread is here:

This is not PROVABLY quoting privileged information, so it should be legal for me to do.
That was Saturday September 7th.
I submitted my bodyguard on Friday September 13th.
My message to Jingle where I mentioned my breadcrumb was Wednesday September 11th.

[mastina]

Aren't role PMs supposed to be insanely customized or some shit? Mastina quoting hers is extremely ehhhhhhh

Hey, when the mod leaves legal loopholes...damn right I will exploit them.

As long as I don't eat a modkill or ban, anything's fair game--and by the looseness of Jingle's rule, nothing I did was modkillable because I didn't break any rule. I pushed the rule to the furthest it could be without being broken, but there's no provable quote of privileged information.

When people call me a fucking liar.

When I am not fucking lying.

Damn fucking straight.

I will prove that I'm not fucking lying.

[mastina]

You literally could have asked Jingle for a fakeclaim of that natur-

Exercise.

Find a single fucking scumgame.
So much as ONE.

Where I fucking fakeclaim.

I've been scum, like, 120 times?

Find one.

I'll let you in on a secret.

In all of those scumgames.

I can't say "it's never happened", because it has.
Once.

Let's see if you can find it.

Because I don't fucking fakeclaim as scum.
Sure, yeah, I will lie and mislead as town. I'll troll as town. I'll tell obvious falsehoods as town. And as scum, I am capable of faking that process, of exaggerating the truth, of making it seem like I'm something I'm not--but push come to shove when I actually claim my real role. As scum I don't fucking lie and as town it's not nearly as common as people fucking think.

Because the truth is the greatest weapon you have at your disposal, and if you weaponize the truth, you're more sincere. Staying true to your role PM makes you more genuine, and that genuineness garners townreads.

It's a fucking stupid idea to fakeclaim as scum because it's setting yourself to a narrative you know is a lie and when you know your narrative is bullshit it's hard to keep bullshitting to it.

This is my widely-known, widely-established, stance on roleclaiming which you have literally fucking hundreds of games to track down me saying this shit in. Like, I've said it in MD, I've said it in dozens of games as both town and scum albeit usually town because when I am making this rant it is usually because people aren't fucking believing my claim when I make it in spite of literally every reason to be telling the truth.

[mastina]

Find a single instance of me lying about my role as scum.

BTW investigatives should stay off me; they'd be wasting their action.
I'm a D3 Innocent Child.
If you are wondering, no, not automatic; I have to manually trigger it.

Wrong answer.
That game I didn't lie. In fact, I distinctly recall rebuking you:
Subject: A Story Revisited (Anything uPick): Day 6

She fakeclaimed D3 IC iirc? but was in actuality mafia vig, so I would definitely think it’s wise to take hers and probably most early claims with a grain of salt.

While technically true, this is incredibly misleading.
I fakeclaimed D3 innocent child...as a N2 Vigilante. (And once D3 rolled around, I realclaimed my role. So no. Didn't lie. Told the truth!)
Given my stance on Vigilantes.
That in of itself was not a lie.
It was misleading, sure.
But my stance on vigilantes is that when they successfully shoot, they

are

conftown; they are proven to be town, and thus, proven innocent, just as if they were an innocent child. (Why this, in spite of my stance of roles != alignment? Because I am a member of the NRG and I am strongly in favor of the argument of vigs not being mafia-controlled. Nontown, sure. Even antitown, fine. But mafia vigs are a fuck no to me and are borderline bastard. They're not QUITE there, in that they're akin to a mafia Godfather; it is something TREMENDOUSLY powerful for the scum to have and NOT something I want in games out there willy-nilly.)

You can see my full realclaim the moment D3 unfolds, right here.

Spoiler: The Posts in Question

Actual claim: Night 2 Vig; last night, I shot Purrcocet.

(And yes, it's spelled that way. Not Vigilante; Vig. Not N2, Night 2.)

Purrcocet, a scumread of mine no less!, claimed my fucking role. He fucking claimed Night 2 vigilante. I had been

planning

to shoot someone like, say, Kokichi Oma, but as a vig the correct play is to always just fucking shoot your counterclaim especially when you don't get the chance to fucking talk all of D2.

I was basically breadcrumbing this role in every fucking post of mine (I can pull up my VERY specific wordings in a bit), but.
The reasoning for the fakeclaim should be self-evident. I said on D3 I would be an innocent child; that's because you don't fucking give a vigilante to a scum player, and the proof would be in the second nightkill with me having killed Purrcocet. (Well originally I was planning on shooting Kokichi, but. Yaknow. Claimed my exact fucking role, and all that.) By claiming D3 Innocent Child, I would lead scum to think I had no night action; by claiming D3 innocent child, I would lead players to think that I was utterly harmless before D3.

But for SOME fucking reason.

Purrcocet isn't dead.

So.

Purrcocet.
You've got some 'splainin' to do.

BTW investigatives should stay off me; they'd be wasting their action.
I'm a D3 Innocent Child.
If you are wondering, no, not

automatic

; I have to manually

trigger

it.

Investigatives should stay off of me because a gunsmith would get a guilty on me; rolecopping or vanilla copping or neapolitaning me would be a waste because my role would be proven come N2 with a successful vig.

I made it clear from the wording here what my true role is. AUTOMATIC-->guns. TRIGGER-->guns.

I guarantee you.

On D3, after I have triggered my action.

I will be conftown.

Again, I specify TRIGGER. I also was very careful with my wording. I never said that I would trigger my action ON D3. I said, QUITE SPECIFICALLY, I would be conftown on D3 after HAVING triggered my action.

Wrt innocent child shenanigans it's possible they have something to do with the "main characters" this setup is based around

I'm not a main character; my confirmation comes from a different method altogether.

My confirmation method comes from being a fucking vig.

Or they'll just do to you what they did to me and vanillarize-neighborize you.

That'd be their funeral then because it'd turn this game from "not exactly something I want" to "oh fuck you I AM GOING TO WIN THIS SHIT" mode.

Vanillaizing an innocent child wouldn't do much because I go without being conftown in most games, but I was specifically putting A LOT OF EFFORT into the strategy behind my vig; being vanillaized after I worked so hard on that would be a "fuck you".

This is no excuse to not post any reads because you can die before hand.

I have my reasons.

Put it this way.

If a townread of mine gets run up, I'll defend them.

I'll give thoughts on players randomly. Some of these may even be productive.

But I've no reason to give full reads before then.

Also this is a good way to help ensure I

don't

bite the bullet before D3. The suspicion on me helps me stay alive.

I know how to play roles, even ones I'm not particularly fond of. (I mean, I love being conftown, but this is a fairly shitty way to get it.) And I promise you, this is the best possibly strategy for me holding this role.

"Bite the bullet" was another hint, but the strongest hint here was "roles I'm not particularly fond of". What role have I on NUMEROUS different occasions stated I absolutely loathe? That's right. Vigilante. I hate them with a passion, but they have one particular use--being made conftown. It's a SHITTY way to become conftown, but it's becoming conftown nonetheless.

Also, this was me outlining my plan.

I wasn't going to give scumreads because guess what? As a fucking vig, I can let my SHOT do the talking in terms of scumreads.

I never lie about being conftownable as town.

Exaggerate

, yes.

Mislead

, sure!
But lie, fuck no, I know better than that.

So I guarantee you.

I will be conftown.

Here I basically admitted that I was in fact not a D3 IC, because the D3 IC claim was precisely this: misleading, and exaggeration, but still the truth, because by shooting N2, I'd be conftown on D3, just as good as an IC.

I'm gonna guess she's on a team with a vanillarizor or something and planned to explain it away that way or something

Joke's on them if they vanillaize me, actually. I'd laugh my ass off if they tried.

The assumption here was that I wouldn't be vanillaized N1 (after all, they thought I couldn't be conftown until D3 so why vanillaize me N1?), and if they attempted it N2, it presumably wouldn't stop my shot from going off. Thus, why the joke would be on them if they had tried; I'd still have fucked them over with the shot.

VOTE: Katsuki

I buy Katsuki's D5 Innocent Child claim if Katsuki has the two-phase-shifted equivalent of my role. (I

suspect

Katsuki would be able to share details about my role from their own, if so inclined to share, which I imagine Katsuki is not.)

So that's not a lynch ever happening because Katsuki is going to be just as conftown as I am, albeit two phases later than I will be.

Here I stated my suspicion that Katsuki had an Night 4 Vig. I was VERY careful about my wording. Not "two-day-shifted". Two PHASE shifted. And I suspected Katsuki would be able to give details of this.

if we have 2 ics there must be a disadvantage somewhere else

Would you believe me if I said I had an idea of what?

The disadvantage I am referring to here is how Vigs require KILLING, to REMOVE a player from the game--yes, they become conftown by having done so, but shots are DISPROPORTIONATELY likely to be on town (thus why I hate vigs), on top of the chance of failure (thus the gambit to help ensure I'd succeed).

I do not believe for so much as ONE SECOND I was roleblocked, because my claim was D3 Innocent Child.
I do not believe for so much as ONE SECOND I was redirected, because my claim was D3 Innocent Child.
I do not believe for so much as ONE SECOND I was rolecopped N1 to justify them knowing my role, because my claim was D3 Innocent Child.

So Purrcocet survived by some other means.
And I don't buy that it's by a town method.

Sure enough.

Exactly as I roleclaimed.

N2 Vigilante

was

my real role, and

I really did

shoot Purcocet using it.

So like I said.

I don't lie about my role as scum.

BY NECESSITY, I will mislead; the reason I by necessity need to mislead as scum is because I love to do it as town. BY NECESSITY, I will exaggerate, I will play up things, I will make very careful usage of very specific wording. BY NECESSITY, I will try to imply something, when it is something else, but this is done purely to mimic my town meta, and I will always claim the actual real role later.

All fakeclaims have an end date.

All fakeclaims are made knowing a realclaim will need to be made later.

And when I reveal the real claim, the reason for the fakeclaim makes complete and total sense when you view it, because you go, "Oh, I understand why that was done" instantly just by knowing the real role.
You can think of it in this term.
Macho <-> Bulletproof as a switch to make, is in fact a lie.
I would tell it gladly and have done so, specifically because I knew that upon a realclaim, the reasons for me having done so would be abundantly clear. The kind of thing where I don't even need to explain it. I could end up a corpse, and that fact alone, just seeing my flip, would instantly explain my actions.

That's how "lies" of mine work. And that's why I say they're not actually lies. They are, technically speaking, not the truth. But they are a lack of truth, which when you see the truth, you understand why they were done and follow it as having been the optimal play.

Claiming D3 Innocent Child as a N2 vig was a

brilliant

play move,

regardless

of alignment and I'm actually sad I was scum that game because that move would have actually been better were I town. It wasn't really a lie, just me playing the closest I've ever played to my town meta in spite of how little I actually played the game. (Through little fault of my own, mind you.)

If the town hadn't kept quicklynching and I hadn't been so swamped with real life stuff at the time that game coulda been a contender for best scumgame I ever played, but since they did and I was busy I barely got to do anything. BUT I DIGRESS.

Point being.

I don't lie as scum; the closest I come to lying as scum is mimicking my town lies, and when I lie as town, I am most definitively not doing so just for the lulz; there is a clear, role-based reason for the lie and when you see the real role you can understand how it wasn't really much of a lie at all if it was in fact really something you could call a lie because my fondness for wordplay and precise usage of words leads me to carefully selecting words which IMPLY the meaning I want BUT ACTUALLY are me confessing to my real role.

I claimed my real fucking role there. I was an N2 Vig; I SAID I was an N2 Vig. So I claimed my real fucking role there.

There is precisely one game where I lied about my role as scum.

You didn't find it.

[mastina]

mastina, am I allowed to leash you?

I mean.
I put all my eggs into the basket of protecting Ank last night.
I really don't have any better ideas.

[mastina]

My vote is bc I suspect Ank hid behind mastina based on her ISO.

If you think Ank EVER hides behind me.
You don't fucking know Ankamius's history with me at all.

That's not a hide she ever makes.
EVER.

[mastina]

Pops why MariaR?

I missed this the first time.

If you want more of my thought process, I had a list of about six perceivedly widely townread players. One thing that made MariaR different from any of the other five is that she was townreading chennisden. When thinking ahead to the D2 lynch, as a possible mislynch, chennisden seemed like a frontrunner for a -mis-lynch amongst players in the thread (xofelf and Ari have pretty good chances of being lynched but I'm confident in others to drink the right wine from the right glasses and lynch them only with accuracy. For obvious reasons I'm not confident in myself right about now). Chennisden is scummier than rand to me, still, it's not contradictory for me to be aware that I'm -probably- wrong about him, and in the case that he's town, he seemed like the most viable mislynch.

You know Pops.
If you had said "I watched MariaR because I thought Pine believed she was a mason and that he'd try to kill a mason last night"...I'd have believed you because last night I thought Pine would PROBABLY be aiming at a mason last night (but since I didn't really know who the masons were decided on Ank).

This explanation?

This explanation is pretty damn bullshit.

[mastina]

What did mastina lie about?

It's the outrage - it rings fake.

I have never.
Ever.
So much as once.
In any fucking game.
Faked rage.

You can argue the rage isn't alignment indicative; that much is accurate. I'll rage as scum even though townrage is far more common and the type of rage is usually different.

But the rage is always fucking real because no fucking shit?

I don't fucking lie, I don't fucking fake. I play with my heart on my sleeve; that's my niche. That's my shtick. It's what I do.

[mastina]

(Speaking of: I'll be making an edited readslist when I'm caught up and Firebringer will be MUCH lower on it as a result because he fucking KNOWS I don't fucking fake this shit and yet him saying I did is a red fucking flag because no I fucking don't and he fucking KNOWS that no I fucking don't. Him pretending that I do is something he absolutely shouldn't be doing.)

[mastina]

I can't shake the feeling that Pops watcher of Maria was designed to catch town power roles more than it was to catch scum.

Like I said.
If pops was using the watcher to try and protect a mason, I'd have believed his logic. For obvious reasons I shouldn't really speculate on who the masons are, but I believe it's safe to say that, at least PLAUSIBLY, that Pine could at least believe MariaR is a mason.

His actual stated logic is absolute bullshit tho.

[mastina]

Aren't role PMs supposed to be insanely customized or some shit? Mastina quoting hers is extremely ehhhhhhh

Mine looks like Mastina's copied role pm. Does yours not?

Okay I guess the "personalized role PM" thing never happened
I checked Ank's flip and the role wasn't woven in the flavor in any way
But there's the fact that Mastina had that available to just change to a bodyguard role PM so I'm not convinced by usage of the role PM to prove anything

Again....does your role pm NOT follow the standard script?

My biggest thought is that DGB has a small, opportunistic ISO.
VOTE: DrippingGoofball

Really like this post btw and it increases my already large townread on Chickadee.

I'm hesitant to lynch a bodyguard, but admittedly it'd take a long time for her to land her shot in a large.

Technically speaking: I did land a shot; I correctly called that Ank would die.
Which is why I called fucking bullshit because when a bodyguard correctly calls that someone will die, they should die in place of that person. I was ready to go to the dead thread fully content at having saved Ank for one more day.

[mastina]

I think I'm never voting GreyICE this game.

He is a strong townread for what it's worth.

[mastina]

Ohay a mastina wagon!
I'm down, but I'd like more info

VOTE: Aristophanes.
I said it yesterday will say it again today.
I was only going to vote one of Ari, Krazy, or jjh today.
And Aristophanes has earned it.

[mastina]

Ank crumbed Xof pretty obviously imo. Also I'm at daystart so if this has been said in the last 20 pages or if the subject has moved on then I apologize.

Ohay a mastina wagon! I'm down, but I'd like more info

The hider obviously hid behind Xof.
Who knows what killed them? I'm down for a mastina wagon!
...
COULD YOU BE SLIGHTLY MORE OBVIOUS ABOUT BEING SCUM

Vote: Aristophanes

NO

Pretty much, yes.

[mastina]

I think mastina would make that kill too.

No, I'd have killed Ank. (Which is why she was my protection.)
Nacho's not been playing recently as far as I know--whereas Ank has been. Ank is more in touch with the meta. Ank is writing (or maybe has written, haven't checked MD yet but she let me know about it) a guide which is basically "how to play town and not be shit at it". Nacho isn't. Nacho would be a kill based on the reputation of what he used to be, not the reputation of what he is RIGHT NOW. And I've learned not to kill people off of the reputation of what they used to be (e.g. not to kill DGB), and to instead kill off of the reputation of what they are right now in the current site meta.

Players who used to be good CAN still be good when returning--can. But just as often, they go from being awesome to really just being...kinda...mediocre.

Also, as a slot: UT the original holder of the slot wasn't a likely mason pick for Ali. Whereas Ankamius was, quite plausibly, a mason pick. Which meant that if Pine were going to shoot for a mason, Ank was the more likely target between the two.

[mastina]

anyone who says they wouldn't make that kill is a liar. the second I saw the replacement announcement I figured I was still destined to miss out on playing with Nacho. Back to buissness work.

Nacho was obviously a fear-kill, and to be fair, it's my fault for not remembering that Pine is one of the few people who WILL make fear kills. Fear kills being kills based off of past reputation regardless of current competency (e.g. "We need to kill DGB because DGB is a legendary goddess of townplay" when DGB's not as good as she used to be--similar logic applies to Titus who was singlehandedly the reason why I protected Ank instead of the Skygazer slot because while people working off of Titus's reputation would say it was a trade-up, in my opinion it was a trade DOWN and it was for damn good reason that I changed my plans from protecting Skygazer to protecting Ank once Titus came in).

There's plenty of players who would be smart enough to NOT make fear kills, so no. Anyone saying they wouldn't kill Nacho isn't lying. Anyone who makes fear kills saying they wouldn't kill Nacho? Yeah THEY are lying. But not every scum does make fear-kills.

[mastina]

super rushed ISO check I think she crumbed Mastina

Fuck this game. I am a bodyguard. I bodyguarded Ankamius last night.

bp vig bodyguard with a hood with pine, sure

The bulletproof vig with a hood with pine was painfully obviously a fucking joke.
There was a kernel of truth in that post--I expected Pine to have probably figured out that I was a protective, possibly even specifically a bodyguard because I was quite clearly, self-evidently, not playing with longevity in mind. The entirety of my play was heavily showing my hand that it was in my gameplan to die quickly. I knew I wasn't going to be living long if I did my job and my play reflected it heavily. So if Pine had an idea I wasn't planning on living long and if Pine had an idea I was a protective (and the focus on having townreads kinda gave that away), I expected him to figure out that I am a bodyguard.

So when I said I expected Pine to have figured out the bg, I meant it, but that was literally the only thing true in that post.

[mastina]

Chickadee
DGB
mastina
xofelf
Ari
there's your team

The only name in there I wouldn't vote is Chickadee.

Try again.

[mastina]

Mastina hasn't really impressed me yet this game.

Have you actually read my iso.

There's a few notable posts which nobody who comments on me remembers.

Nobody townreading me, nobody scumreading me, nobody nullreading me, has commented on anything I've done. And what I've done has not been jackshit. What I've done hasn't been nothing. I've done shit. Yet nobody with any sort of commentary on me, has commented on what I've done.

[mastina]

I feel like expecting her to be "impressive" in a way that's comprehensible isn't a great idea.

Expecting it isn't the greatest idea, sure.
But when it happens it shouldn't be ignored and I've pulled my fucking weight.

[mastina]

i feel null about all of these people. any suggestions on who i should feel more strongly about? i'll start with them.
mariar
firebringer
mastina
chennisden
popsofctown
Krazy
PenguinPower
Pink Ball
also have outdated townread on chickadee in particular which i'll be reevaluating

Have I mentioned that the worst is a scumread.

[mastina]

i have no feelings about mastina at all.

And that's why you're scum.

[mastina]

I could probably catch up right now but by the time I finished I'd probably be late for work, so:

Skygazer/Titus
Dannflor
GreyIce
Katsuki
Chickadee
Formerfish

Pink Ball

MariaR
Gamma Emerald
Iconeum

Menalque

PenguinPower

chennisden

DrippingGoofBall
Firebringer
xofelf

popsofctown

the worst

jjh
Krazy
Aristophanes

This is about where I'm at right now.
Need to explain the positions of Chickadee, Formerfish, Gamma Emerald, Menalque, DGB (she might be too high), more on Firebringer, xofelf, more on pops, and if I've the time to spare, more on my stronger scumreads.

But for now...like I said. I'm going to be late for work unless I leave like...five minutes ago.

[mastina]

To quote the PM I sent to Jingle:

Knowing my luck I'll be protecting scum now but Ali didn't give me a target in spite of asking to leash me so this is Alisae's fault for forgetting to follow through after I actually said I had no better ideas.

Protect: GreyICE.

Now watch it be Katsuki nightkilled. Or a mason. Or...like, literally anyone other than GreyICE.

Soyeah. I protected GreyICE last night, lacking any better ideas.
VOTE: Aristophanes

[mastina]

To quote the PM I sent to Jingle:

Knowing my luck I'll be protecting scum now but Ali didn't give me a target in spite of asking to leash me so this is Alisae's fault for forgetting to follow through after I actually said I had no better ideas.

Protect: GreyICE.

Now watch it be Katsuki nightkilled. Or a mason. Or...like, literally anyone other than GreyICE.

Soyeah. I protected GreyICE last night, lacking any better ideas.
VOTE: Aristophanes

can you vote SS?

Can? Yes.
Will?

No.

I didn't get around to my more detailed reads but one of the reads I wanted to talk about was Something_Smart's slot--
Specifically.
How I don't buy into the hype.
I can

see

it.
I understand the logic behind it.
The slot is far from a townread.
But I am not convinced the slot is scum and if I had to guess would guess specifically otherwise.

You've got far better bets in the likes of Aristophanes, Krazy, Firebringer, the worst, popsofctown, with darkhorse candidates like PenguinPower and chennisden.
I'd rate SS as a darkhorse with PP and chennisden.
Aristophanes, Krazy, Firebringer, the worst, and popsofctown all have a much much higher chance of flipping scum.
Mind you I don't think the scumteam is exactly those fine and I do think that when it comes to a coherent scumteam comp Pine would select one or two of said darkhorse candidates but I am not convinced that xofelf was one of them even though I understand, follow, and get the logic why people think she was.

[mastina]

what's your logic on the worst specifically, mastina?

Basically:
This looks like his scumgame, not his towngame.
the worst, similarly to Aristophanes, is a team glue; he'd help make the scumteam be held together incredibly well.
the worst is an incredibly skilled scum player.
the worst is an incredibly good town player who Pine has reason to not want to be town.
the worst makes total sense as a Pine pick and given that this also looks like his scumplay rather than what I'd expect from him as town...

[mastina]

Ali you're missing something

Awwww, we we so SURE that this was a PR crumb! Pity.

I have zero doubts this is true.
I also have no doubts that jjh wasn't killed exclusively because of PR hunting because you don't kill someone purely exclusively 100% because "they're probably a PR"; you kill someone because "they're probably a PR, AND, we want them dead because X".

So I have zero doubt that something in jjh's play made him more threatening than any other town player who you suspect/know to be a town PR.

Mind you, this does me absolutely zero good because fucked if I know what it was specifically which made him threatening enough to be the top-PR-candidate-kill. Not because I can't think of any reason--because there's too many possible reasons and I wouldn't be able to tell which is the right one.

jjh as a sane town player.
jjh as a mechanically gifted town player.
jjh as a reasonable town player.
jjh for his charismatic nature.
jjh for the potential to, even if he wasn't looking town yet, to eventually obvtown.
jjh for current read accuracy.
jjh for the potential to have future read accuracy even if his current reads weren't.

I can see you making a kill on him for any one of those in addition to thinking he was a PR, so I can't really glean anything useful from it. OH WELL.
(So I guess there's one final reason to kill jjh as a suspected PR above all other suspected/known PRs: "If we kill him, the town won't be able to tell why it was him".)

[mastina]

@Mastina, why wouldn't Pine select you and GreyIce?

Respectfully, Titus, you asked the wrong question.
I said it before, so I'll say it again: there's nobody in this game that Pine wouldn't select.
If there were a player Pine wouldn't select, simply put: they just wouldn't be in the game. Everyone in here has a reason Pine would pick them, and nobody has a compelling reason why Pine wouldn't pick them. Every pick is possible, even though some are more plausible/probable than others.

The right question to ask isn't why wouldn't Pine pick someone, but why Pine DIDN'T pick them.

Pine didn't pick GreyICE because these games are, at their very core fundamental nature, designed to be fun. Jingle wanted the game to be fun as explicitly as is possible, Pine wanted the game to be fun and this has been confirmed as explicitly as is possible given the format. (Jingle all but modconfirmed that Pine wanted the game to be fun and Pine has himself stated he wanted the game to be fun, something he has no incentive to lie about.)

Sure, yes. Pine wants to win; Pine wants to be strategic. But while he wants to be strategic and win, he also wants to be fun.
And simply put: the GreyICE-LLD bout on D1 was such a toxic cesspool reminiscent of a much much much worse version of Civilization Mafia (a game that Pine, in spite of being scum, infamously hated)...and that? That wasn't fun, so Pine wouldn't stand for it. He wouldn't allow for the LLD-GreyICE bus to be such a toxic cesspool, which means that he didn't approve of it, which means that GreyICE isn't scumbuddies with his wife.

As for why Pine didn't pick me?
His message to me is a good lead-in to describing why he didn't:

Message

Dearest mastina!

My oldest friend (on site), your betrayal wounds me to my core. How dare you take up with that self-righteous paladin, Alisae? Granted, you were loyal to me last year, and it's fun to watch you detonate, but I'm aiming for a clean sweep this year, and you'll help me achieve it more on the outside than within.

So speaks Eldest Pine, Lord of the Forest, Master of the Tree Sovereignty

Good luck!

(Speaking of, my response to Jingle after I got that message:
WAIT.
JINGLE.
I WAS JOKING ABOUT THE NEIGHBORHOOD.

J O K I N G

.
Jingle's response:
It's more fun for me if I let Pine taunt you whenever he wants. )

Basically, Pine, quite correctly, called the fact that I do more damage to the town as part of it than I do as not part of it. Of course. On D1. I was laughing at him for this--as a bodyguard, I knew something he didn't; I was going to die early, fucking up his plans by stopping a key nightkill and thus not damaging the town but rather fucking him over.

And then D2 started and Pine got the last laugh on that subject because HAHA GUESS WHAT MASTINA IN SPITE OF YOU PROTECTING ANK SHE STILL DIED ANYWAY AND AS A CONSEQUENCE YOU GET FUCKED AND DAMAGE THE TOWN IN SPITE OF YOUR PLANS TO THE CONTRARY.

ButSTILL.

Pine didn't pick me because I am a poor choice.
I, similarly to Krazy, feel miserable as scum.
I am someone who can't carry to lategame as scum in 95% of my scumgames--as a scum member, my job is setting up for the lategame. Creating the plan which wins us the game and putting the pieces in place for it, positioning my team so that they can achieve that wincon. I'm not a good scum player because I endgame the town; I am a good scum player because after being lynched by the town, the town ends up in a worse position than they were before assuming my plan was followed through on.

People are just too paranoid of me being scum.
In my last 15 or so games, over half have had a mastina mislynch (or misvig). I think the total's like 9-10/15? Some high number like that.
You were in one of them--a D1 mislynch, no less, where you among others misidentified my towngame as being my scumgame even though it very fucking much wasn't.
Mind you--it's been almost a full year since I last rolled scum. This was true last Pine game, too, but critically unlike last game where I made the error of telling Pine about this fact prior to his draft, this game I was smart enough to keep my mouth shut the entire time and not mention anything just in case. (You might notice I didn't talk in the signup thread beyond my initial confirmation; this was the reason for it. I figured the less I talked, the higher my chances were of not getting drafted because I very much didn't want to be scum.)

But basically--Pine didn't have reason to select me, because the role I had in the scumteam was filled by other players on it. LLD did the setup parts I would've done (LLD did what I did last game--quite literally. My job last game was to die D1 rapidly; LLD's job this game was to die D1 rapidly). He picked other players (sayyyy, Krazy, the worst, and/or Aristophanes) to help gel with the team and fill in some of the mechanical gaps in the game.

Pine had good reason not to select me--he knew that I'd be lynched; he knew it'd be better for his team if it was a mislynch.
Pine has seen me in games enough to know that while I occasionally have moments where I shine, there's plenty of toxicity I bring, infighting with the town. I brute force a bullheaded stubborn push on players I think are scum and hard-defend the players I think are town. He probably expected me to hard-defend LLD for that matter, but that's optional.

I am not a good team player; I fight with the town all the time. I create noise. I create chaos. I am a distraction. Fuck, the fact that I bodyguarded someone who died the night I protected them is proof enough of this. People think that I am a good town player in spite of me, consistently, telling them otherwise. Pine knows me well enough to believe me when I say I'm not a good town player. I understand why Jingle made me a bodyguard; it's a way to take me out of the game before I do more harm than good. But Pine was counting on me doing more harm than good and thanks to how N1 played out he succeeded.
(Which is a big gigantic fuck you, mind you, but I digress.)

[mastina]

bargain: fruit governor 1 shot

NOW THIS IS MY KIND OF FRUIT!!!

VOTE: Firebringer

[mastina]

Hey so I have a proposition. SS, FB, and mastina seem to be the flavour of the day. Could we concentrate votes or i tent onto them so that we can see where people fall on this? I think it could help us sort our shit out a lot more easily this way.

I'll start.
VOTE: SS
I reread Xof and some turns of phrase I don't see coming from someone who hasn't played in 6 years. It looked coached and something just feels off in a lot of SS' posts. Sorry friend.

The only way I'm not voting Firebringer is if I'm voting you.
Outside third of Krazy butstill.

[mastina]

Jeez pine we sure are not very creative with our “devils deals” now
Sure let’s do this

Jingle go ahead and give Pine my vote

Thus is our bargain sealed.

VOTE: Firebringer

VOTE: Firebringer

[mastina]

Oh, okay. So Firebringer scumclaimed for real by taking that.

Yep.
We'll need to spend two lynches to kill Firebringer most likely but hot damn does it need to be done.

[mastina]

@townies lynch this
Mastina is not reading my ISO critically with intent to sort me. She has seen both my scum and town games in this environment. This game is literally a classic example of my town meta in a large game, yet she's mystically reaching an entirely incorrect conclusion. It's a lynch case. It is not a case to solve my alignment.

I have a one word response to this:

fake

[mastina]

Mastina isn't it better to try the vig on him first?

I mean I obviously would prefer Firebringer to be vigged, sure, yeah, but:
1: The scumteam may have more defense against a vig than just a commuter; I wouldn't count on a successful vig.
2: The vig might be gated in some fashion and unable to successfully vig Firebringer; I wouldn't rely on a successful vig.
3: The vig apparently vigged of all fucking people NACHOMAMMA. And then topped it off by killing

one of the most obviously town players in the game

by vigging of all fucking people CHICKADEE. You will forgive me if my trust in their competency rests at an absolute fucking 0%.
4: Alternatively there's just the very real chance that this is a scum vig because, again. Vig apparently vigged NACHOMAMMA. And CHICKADEE. Two of the literally most pro-scum kills possible. So, no, I wouldn't rely on the vig to shoot Firebringer if the vig is scum with Firebringer.

It'd be

nice

if,
1: The scumteam had no counter to the vig,
2: The vig was able to shoot Firebringer,
3: The vig was competent enough to shoot Firebringer,
and
4: The vig was actually town.
I'd love it if all four of those were true.

I very much sincerely doubt they are at this juncture.

[mastina]

Mastina why do you keep making it sound like N1 was all pine's doing when fypov ank hid behind scum?

Where do you get the impression I'm saying N1 was Pine's doing? My fuck this game isn't because of Pine, it's because of the fucking joke of protecting Ankamius fully expecting me to have saved her life only to be in for a NASTY surprise on D2. Pine had nothing to do with that which is why he gets the last laugh; it is specifically

because

he didn't orchestrate it that he gets to bust his guts laughing at the travesty. He literally couldn't have made a plan that good even if he was trying.

[mastina]

mastina/Ari/Firebringer has 2 scum in it.

Oh yes.
You think I (a player who infamously loathes bussing) could be scum with my largest scumread who I've voted three day phases in a row and/or the person I am currently voting.

Do forgive me for pushing a big shiny red button called:

[mastina]

Why are people townreading Menalque?

Because the people scumreading him are people like you.

[mastina]

Mastina, given our history why are you struggling to respond to me in good faith?

You assume that was in bad faith incorrectly.
I call it fake because that's what it looks like--a fake reaction to a gamelong scumread I've had on you which is certainly not newly explained as of today. I talked about my scumread on you earlier in the game and you didn't react to it then. The only difference between then and now is that here I put it in one post rather than multiple, and that the one post was short rather than multiple wallposts.

You're not playing as I'd expect you to be playing as town.

There's one interaction which I'm not positive I'm remembering correctly which if it happened could be evidence otherwise; I'm pretty damn certain that this is Krazy's scumgame 100% to a T given what Krazy has and hasn't been doing and my MEMORY says that you had a fairly large bout with him that would suggest you're not scum-scum, and given my Krazy scumread is far more certain than my scumread on you if that were true, then I'd favor him as scum over you.

But the two things which give me doubt there are
1: This is from memory and I could have you mistaken for someone else, e.g. jjh. (I remember someone had the not-scum-scum interactions with Krazy but I'm not certain it was you.) I'd have to look it up to confirm.
2: Even if it was you, I'm not CERTAIN that the interactions are definitively not-scum-scum; I'm not positive it's outside the range of scum theater especially given the lack of push on each other between you two. I'd need to scrutinize the interaction to see if it really was TownvTown or just scum theater.

And that? That interaction I'm not even sure it was you making and even if it was you I'm not sure it wasn't scum distancing? That's the only thing from you which I've thought was even remotely town. Something which might not have even been you and even if it was you is something that scum!you/Krazy could easily pull off especially given the gamestate.

[mastina]

actually all my scumreads arguing with each other in thread rn is strange. u people need to not confuse me.

(Have I mentioned that Firebringer is just legit scum here yet.)

[mastina]

Ari is controversial for WKing LLD.

That's not why Aristophanes is scum, though it is something Aristophanes would do as scum.
Aristophanes is scum because of what he brings to the scumteam, the value Pine sees in Aristophanes, and what Aristophanes has done all game. What stances he's taken, what plays he's made, his tone, his content, his everything. The pushes he's made, the content he's providing, it all looks like his top-form scumgame rather than his natural towngame. Mostly, you can tell this by one simple fact;
Aristophanes this game is trying harder than he would be as town.
Yes, traditionally, Aristophanes as scum is a lurksack who does nothing; traditionally, town-Aristophanes usually does nothing for quite a bit and then ends up trying hard.

But this is an Aristophanes whose tryhardness is above and beyond the call to duty--this is an Aristophanes with something to prove, and Aristophanes as town would have nothing to prove.

[mastina]

she's on a precipice where she should be able to obvtown very fucking quickly.

I was obvtown from D1 alone.
I was playing in a way where on D1 I wanted it to be that when I flipped N1 people would wonder if I was Pine's nightkill target or if I pulled off a successful protection--I, personally, would know it was the latter. I, personally, would've known Pine never nightkills me this game no matter how pro-town I've been. But I wanted to be so damn town that to

other people

they wouldn't be able to tell if I made a successful protection or was just that damn town to earn a direct nightkill.

I didn't even get to read everything, I didn't even get to do everything I wanted to do (for instance, on D1 there were at least two or three occasions where I wanted to explain that my bulletproof vig with a neighborhood with Pine claim was self-evidently obviously a joke which I thought would be fun and Pine would find funny and was disappointed Pine didn't riff off of it at all), but I didn't NEED to do everything I wanted to do. I never as town get to do everything I want to do, doesn't mean I don't still manage to get ENOUGH done.

Yet alone D2 and D3.

You only need one day to realize I'm never scum here and yet you've got three.

don't think Ank really had a read on her which is a big alarm bell fmpov.

Ank never has a read on me N1 but she certainly doesn't use a fucking hider to get one on me. You know why? Because she knows I spew my alignment with time more than any other player on site (at least, to HER--as in, no player becomes more obvious what alignment they hold than me to her). Using a hider on me is a waste. And she knows it's a waste. She knows that I don't have longevity as scum. She KNOWS that as scum I am the sacrificial lamb of the scumteam; someone who dies to prop my scumbuddies up.

Even if she did think I was scum, you know what she'd do? She'd try to use her hide to expose my scumbuddies, not me, because she'd know that would be more valuable an action, that exposting scumastina does little good to the town when scumastina usually dies on her own anyway, whereas exposing the scumbuddy which scumastina was propping up to be the carry of the scumteam is far more valuable.

And frankly? She didn't think I was scum. You know how I know this? Because this is the exact same approach Ankamius has taken to me every single game where she's had a null-to-nulltown read on me D1. Want me to link you to D1 games we've had together where her approach to me then with that null-to-nulltown read on me was literally identical to this game? There's plenty of them!

And if she didn't think I was scum, she wouldn't have hidden behind me either. Because hiding behind me wouldn't do her any good and it wouldn't do the town any good.

I might not know who Ankamius hid behind.
She's probably frustrated that nobody can tell who she did hide behind, I wish I could read her posts well enough to tell who she hid behind but in spite of having a damn good idea of what her mindset is I really can't tell how she'd use that role.
But I do know who she didn't hide behind at least to some extent.

[mastina]

Why are you so sure that pine would target ank on N1?

Pine didn't. I know that because if he had I'd be dead.
Why WAS I so sure that Ank would be Pine's target N1?
Because Ankamius is literally the best player in this playerlist, bar none.
She hits every town note that Pine would view as a threat.
She was a possible power role (I identified her as such on D1); she was a plausible mason.
She was someone who Jingle, self-evidently, prioritized--someone Pine WANTED on his scumteam, but because he didn't first-pick her, was sniped away by Jingle.
She is the best town player on site at reading and understanding gamestates and the gamestate on D1 was one which Pine didn't want the town to be able to read.
She has damn good reads, she is damn good at convincing people, and she is damn good at being obvtown.

By what metric would she in any world NOT be the best N1 nightkill for Pine?

There's literally no world given this playerlist where there's a better N1 than her so damn fucking straight I was sure she was going to be his nightkill. Up until D2 where the impossibility of that presented itself.

also, can anyone explain what should have happened if ank hid behind scum but also scum targeted her while she was being body guarded by Mastina? I really suck with NAR systems, but should Mastina not have died anyway?

Compare the wording of Ank's PM and mine:
(Bodyguard) Each night, you may target a player. Any

attempts

to

kill

that player will fail. If you successfully prevent a kill this way, you will die instead.

(Weak Hider)

Each night, you may target a player. If that player is

not a Loyal Retainer of Alisae

, you will die. If that

player is killed

during the Night, you will die. Otherwise, you will be protected

from all kills

.

Ankamius's Weak Hider did NOT make her untargetable. Someone could've tracked her; someone could've watched her; I could, and did, bodyguard her.
Ankamius's Weak Hider made her immune to nightkills, and ONLY nightkills.
That she died means she triggered one of the other two effects.
Which means she either hid behind Nacho (and I don't think she would because that'd be almost as stupid as hiding behind me), or she hid behind scum. Because she could NOT die any other way. Her own role, AND my role, gave her DOUBLE protection from nightkills.

[mastina]

bad faith

There a reason you're trying to assume I'm scum and working backwards? This is what I meant by engaging me in bad faith ftr

There a reason you think I'm trying to assume you're scum and working backwards?

When I say I've seen nothing from you that was town except for one possible exception which I'm not even sure was you and even if it was was something not outside the range of scum theater.

That means that everything I've seen from you except for the one possible exception which I'm not even sure was you and even if it was was something not outside the range of scum theater, has made me think that you're scum.

That's not assuming you're scum and working backwards; that's seeing every reason for you to be scum and not seeing any reason for you not being scum.

[mastina]

she's on a precipice where she should be able to obvtown very fucking quickly.

I was playing in a way where on D1 I wanted it to be that when I flipped N1 people would wonder if I was Pine's nightkill target or if I pulled off a successful protection--I, personally, would know it was the latter.

Is this a perspective scum-slip????
Why would you go out of your way to obscure information from town when that information is 24/7 Library of Congress available to scum???

And how, pray tell, with me dead N1, would I be able to tell people on D2 that I had made a successful save and was never going to be Pine's nightkill?

How, pray tell, could I tell people D1 that my death N1 was due to me being a bodyguard, without me giving away that I am a bodyguard?

This isn't something I

could

tell the town about.

The town would have to guess--and I wanted to play competently enough that it would in fact BE them guessing. I wanted to leave an obvious 'crumb so that they could tell who I protected, so if they assumed I died via protection, they'd know Ank was conftown; I wanted to be obvtown enough so that if they thought I was just outright nightkilled, in spite of me having died protecting Ank, they'd follow my reads, among them that Ank was town.

I wanted to be competent enough so that people would follow me after my death, sheep my reads and whatnot, in spite of the cause of my death not being the nightkill but rather a successful protection. To be town enough that it was plausible that Pine killed me, so people would listen to me after my death, even though I'd know it was due to a protection--and if people did figure it out, figure it was a protection, that they'd be able to tell that my one and only breadcrumb was breadcrumbing behind Ankamius, my second-strongest townread. (I literally said, "Vig is not the night action you use on Ank N1." The implication being that I'd use my REAL role on her rather than my obvious fakeclaim role on her N1. It didn't get more obvious than that.)

[mastina]

It's normal now just follow the normal guidelines for crying out loud

He did.
Ankamius was a Weak Hider.
The version of Hider Jingle used was the Normal version, just with the Weak modifier attached.

The Normal version of Hider dies if hiding behind someone who dies during the night, and is immune to the nightkill otherwise.
The Normal version of Hider does not make the Hider immune to all night actions.
The Normal version of Hider does not die if hiding behind scum--it requires the Weak modifier to have that effect, and this game Jingle included said Weak modifier.

Ankamius's role would be passed in a Normal review because it meets the requirements and standard definition of what the Normal Hider is.

[mastina]

jingle, does hider act before bodyguard in the NAR order?

I mean to oversimplify:
The list you see on the NAR page only applies if there is a conflict in role PMs.
There isn't conflict.
My bodyguard isn't "saves someone if they were to die", it's "saves someone if they were to be nightkilled". The distinction between the former and the latter is that the former protects against multiple methods of death whereas the latter only protects against the scum nightkill and the vig kill. I could not save Ank unless she were the target of the nightkill.

Ank's hider is straight-up "you die if you hide behind scum or someone who is nightkilled"; this death can't be saved.

But if you were to invoke the NAR list...

Copy

Hide

Bus Drive
Block
Redirect

Protect

Miscellaneous
Kill
Recruit
Inspect

[mastina]

summary of your case on me Mastina you have no idea what I've been doing this game but you think it's scummy.

No, the summary of the case is that everything I've seen you do looks like scum.

if you don't see why I think you're reading me in bad faith, summarise your case including references to how I'm trying to achieve the scum wincon.

The only thing in bad faith is you asking this of me knowing it is ME you're asking to do this. When I deliver on promises like this, like...oh. Maybe on a good day, 5% of the time? You fucking know that this is something that I promise to do all the time and yet almost never deliver on.

[mastina]

You've explained in this post how the correct, pro-town stance, is, "I wanted to play in such a way that when I turned up dead N1, everyone would be positive that I was not the nightkill target Pine selected, but instead the target I crumbed was, clearing them".

Not what I said and outright false?

The only way a bodyguard dieing is definitively from a successful protection is if the bodyguard was playing shitty enough to never be the nightkill by dayplay.

There's nothing correct about playing shitty enough that you're never the nightkill.

It's always correct to be playing good enough where you could plausibly be the nightkill, even if you personally know it was due to a successful protection.

This is stupidly obvious.

[mastina]

hey alisae ur crossing a line.

Only if you're scum.

You deserve every word and then some if for some mystical reason this is you as town, but thankfully it isn't.

I do agree with you given you being scum that Ali's reaction is a bit extreme tho.

[mastina]

Just surprised Ari is so active if he's scum

Aristophanes is incredibly active as scum when he is given sufficient reason to want to impress.

Any game where he is specifically chosen by the lead scum and has said scum's coaching is reason to want to impress.

[mastina]

We can lynch mastina
VOTE: mastina

Of course you can.
But you're being an absolute fucking moron if so because this is stupendously obviously my fucking towngame and I have every fucking reason to be town and the "scumreads" on me are utter fucking bullshit and quite obviously so.

[mastina]

tl;dr you want me lynched but don't really know what makes me scummy right?

No on every account.

I want Aristophanes lynched.
I want Krazy lynched.
I want Firebringer lynched.
And when all three are dead you'd be a top pick for a lynch but then and only then--and it's not because I don't know what makes you scummy, I know EXACTLY what makes you be scummy. It's that I have trouble verbalizing it, I have trouble putting it into words, it's effort and time that I very much rather not expend because it's not in my nature to want to try and figure out a way to try and vocalize the concept in my head which I lack the words to describe to others. I have the concept of my scumread on you locked down and know precisely what it is. I just don't know how to explain that read to others.

Similar logic applies to Aristophanes, Krazy, and Firebringer, too, to some extent. The full reasons for them being scum I have in my head, I just can't figure out how to explain it all. The difference being that with you while I don't have much in the way of ability to explain it, at least with them I have things I can kindof sortof more or less get out even if I'm only getting out a small portion of it.

Basically, with Aristophanes/Krazy/Firebringer I can explain like...20-35% of my cases on them; with you I can explain like...5-8% of my case on you.

You're not only a weaker scumread, you're also a harder scumread to explain.
You being a weaker scumread that is harder to explain doesn't mean the scumread has no reasons, it means exactly what it means:
You take more effort to explain for a read which is less likely to be correct.

That doesn't mean the read doesn't exist and that doesn't mean the reasons don't exist.

And it's incredibly disingenuous of you to be pushing this angle especially when you fucking know my personality and how I fucking operate.

[mastina]

Yes playing pro-town always justifies itself.

You posted that you

wanted

-

town

- to be unsure if you successfully BGed.

You are correct that you can't really achieve the opposite goal without scumsiding and as a result you shouldn't ever approach BG that way.

But you posted that you

wanted

town and only town

to be unsure if you successfully BGed and you can't delete it even if you try to recharacterize now.

Your point being?

You're proving my fucking point not contradicting it.

Playing pro-town always justifies itself. As a bodyguard you shouldn't play shitty to ensure people know you made a successful protection. You should be playing so pro-town that people wonder if it was a successful protection or if you were just outright nightkilled.

There's no scumslip in saying only town wouldn't know because no fucking duh scum know who they fucking nightkilled and their nightkill being alive while a bodyguard they didn't nightkill is dead tells them that the bodyguard made the successful protection? That's stupidly obvious. No fucking shit only the town wouldn't know. But there's no way to TELL the town you made a successful protection after the fact and no way to say you're making a successful protection before the fact without giving away you're a bodyguard targeting x to the scumteam (and thus ensuring you DON'T make a successful protection).

The only way to tell the town you made a successful protection is if you were playing in a way that was shitty enough that no scum would ever nightkill you--but we've established that a bodyguard shouldn't be doing that, soooooo...if you're not playing in a way that was shitty enough that no scum would ever nightkill you...then...when you die...the town...

Oh what's the obvious conclusion from that?

Oh yeah.
The town wouldn't know.
Because you were playing too good for them to know.

And no fucking shit that's what you should fucking be doing? You should always be playing skilled enough that the town can't tell if you were nightkilled or if you made a successful protection.

And if the town CAN tell that it was a successful protection...it means you were playing shittily.
And since we both agree you shouldn't be playing shittily.
By definition you are fucking agreeing that the town shouldn't be able to tell it was a successful protection.

This is stupidly self-evident.

[mastina]

ohh go fuck yourself mastina

Gladly, been meaning to do that all day long.

[mastina]

mastina's push on me feels opportunistic but pops' push on mastina feels opportunistic ffhfhfhfn

Oh yes a push on a scumread I've held the entire fucking game since D1 before literally any other player thought you were scum is

totally

opportunistic.

[mastina]

She did not actually do this day 1 at all, she made it up today.

Try again.
I've been very clear ever since I claimed bodyguard--the proof being in D2 posts--that it was always my plan to be as literally pro-town as possible on D1. I was literally trying my damnedest to do everything town.

D1s I am usually laid back. D1s I am usually fairly jokey. D1s I am usually not very explainy. D1s I usually do basically nothing. But here I went out of my way to phonepost a shitload of content, give long walls, give full readslists, and even give REASONS behind the readslists. I explained my stances, I gave a ton of shit that I normally don't bother to, specifically because I was trying to put in the extra effort on D1. Specifically because I knew that if I did my job, I'd be dead N1. And if I had died N1. I'd have want to leave the most lasting impact possible after my death.

Tell me.

Which has a longer-lasting impact?

Players thinking the bodyguard made a successful protection, thus concluding that a single player, Ankamius, is town...

...Or players thinking that the bodyguard might've eaten the nightkill, thus concluding that her content is worth analyzing, breaking down, reviewing, rereviewing, to look at her stances, her townreads, her scumreads, her thoughts on the gamestate, and so on and so forth?

Which of these has a better impact on the long-term state of the game?
The thing which affects only D2 after which Ank eats the N2 nightkill anyway, or the thing which affects EVERY day phase for the rest of the game as players continuously review who died and theorize as to why?

No fucking shit it's the latter and that is what I was fucking aiming for.
That's stupidly obviously literally the only way to play the role right.

[mastina]

Just hope this doesn’t go wrong tho, okay?

Of course it goes fucking wrong because it's me you're fucking lynching.

[mastina]

alright back to the crux of your case on me: given you have some kind of respect for my scumplay in large themes why do you think I absolutely suck ass here?

What makes your play this game suck ass if you're scum?

You're mostly out of sight; you've been almost entirely out of mind until this day phase. Literally before today I think I was literally the only one putting any attention on you whatsoever; everyone else was either ignoring you or calling you town. What makes that a bad scum performance?

the duality of "tw is good at keeping scumteams together in large games" against "wow tw isn't doing anything" is something that hasn't been addressed and I'd like you to do it. given the experience you have with my play.

This is such a stupidly obvious thing I thought it didn't need to be said but okay.
Activity in the game thread does not necessarily reflect activity in the scum thread and vice versa.
You keep scumteams together in large games, sure, yeah, but you mostly do that in your scum PT, not in the game thread.
Same with Aristophanes. He's not someone who encourages his scumbuddies a ton in the actual game thread (I mean, he could, it's just that that's not where most of it happens); he encourages his scumbuddies a ton in the scumchat.

[mastina]

Town!Fire also comes across as the dick who would want to shit on me as much as possible so...

And you think scum!Fire doesn't come across as a dick who'd want to shit on you as much as possible, because...

...Why?

[mastina]

hmm it hasn't been reevaluated and doesn't consider any of the very warm, very extensive actual meta you have on me
so
yeah

There's been nothing to cause the read to be reevaluated especially since the very warm very extensive actual meta I have on you tells me you're playing like scum, so.
Yeah.

[mastina]

I've never seen duck this sassy

That would be part of the scumread on him, yes.

His posts are basically strawmanning combined with misrepping, with him commenting on said strawmens misrepresented with snark.

It is not the town worst I know.

[mastina]

The fact mastina has been able to keep up with the game and hasn’t been doing the catch up posts that she usually provides means we lynch her.

You think this is me caught up?

I've skipped at least 25% of the game. There is at least 25% of the game that I have not read at all. Could be as high as 40% even, 25% is the conservative lowest possible estimate.

You know how much of the game I've been able to comment on in spite of that number?

Even lower--of the 60-75% of the game I've read, I've been able to comment on 10-30% of it.

10-30%, of 60-75%. Even if you go 30% of 75% what you end up with is me having been able to "keep up" with only 22.5% of the game. Go the lower estimates, and it's only 6% of the game.

You know why I haven't been doing catchup posts?

Because I am barely fucking keeping myself in the game as is and I have to sacrifice everything I don't get the chance to to so much as stand a fucking chance.

But you know why I am still trying to keep myself in the game?

Because I fucking care even though I have EVERY fucking reason not to.

You have given me ZERO fucking reason to care this game.
You have EVERY fucking reason to fucking KNOW this is my towngame.
Yet you are treating me like I'm fucking scum even though you fucking know this isn't my scumgame in any way shape or form and literally every player who fucking knows me either knows that this isn't my fucking scumgame or is quite literally just actually scum. (See also: Firebringer, and probably the worst.)

Fuck, even some of the scum (see also: Krazy) who, by virtue of knowing me, know that I am town, can and have told you that I am town.
I have every fucking reason to not be in this game because the fucking IC who should fucking know that I am town more than any other player is calling me scum in spite of a bullshit N1 that I could never pull off as scum. I have every fucking reason to not be in this game because the fucking bullshit N1 ruined every fucking piece of joy I had in this game because I went from having made the literally perfect fucking play to being PUNISHED FOR HAVING MADE THE FUCKING RIGHT CALL TO MAKE.

The only fucking reason I'm not quitting is...fucked if I know to be frank. Stubbornness I guess.

[mastina]

Where she nitpicks an argument to hone in on something which she can argue with for days and days while ignoring the larger argument.

Oh do tell what said larger argument is then.
Enlighten us.

[mastina]

yo Mastina when did your SR on ank turn into a TR?

This is one of the things I wanted to comment on D1 when Ank asked me that directly.

The answer was, simply put:
I believed that the only way Ankamius was town was if Jingle sniped her from Pine before Pine could pick her.
Ankamius convinced me that

exactly that

happened when she addressed me here:

Okay, I'm just going to go into this now because this shit is very relevant to my alignment.

1. I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that Jingle almost always drafts me in his first set of picks; if not his first, always his second. He's seen enough of how I play

and I've literally HARD STOMPED HIS SCUMTEAM

before. He's either modded or played in a lot of my stronger games on my main account this year, and he was in my strongest scum game of this year. Because of this,

Pine has to draft me first if he wants me on his team

. He can't rely on being able to pick me for his team after the first draft, and that's even assuming that he is aware of Jingle and my history on the site.

2. The way I'm playing this game makes absolutely no sense for scum!me. I'm very well aware of my weaknesses as scum, most notably being that I am able to fake the majority of my towntells, but not at the same time. I can't hyperpost, make believable trajectories, AND be consistent tonally at the same time. In this game, I have been among the top posters for a lot of the game, outputted a lot of reads, and yet nobody has been able to pick up on any major tonal discrepancies up to this point. This is my scumgame of the century in the case that I'm actually scum this game.

3. I'm purposely holding myself back. I'm partially doing this because of the hyperposting thing and I don't want to create another Starry Night out of respect for those that don't want very fast games, but the more prevalent reason for why I'm holding myself back is because

it will not end well if I go hard and start going by my own rules and mindset towards how I play.

I work best when I have enough sway over the game to get the flips I need to narrow down the game to a winnable state, and I learned a harsh lesson from Anuket Topaz that when I try to go that route when there's enough leader/rebellious/etc. types in the game, I compromise my own ability to reach the flips I want and tilt out of the game, literally becoming useless to everybody. This playerlist is very very likely to resist me if I go this route and just cause a bunch of drama bullshit in the thread that it really doesn't need. It's better for me to hold back and do what I can from the background to keep the playerlist focused.

4. I'm pretty much always a nightkill by scum this game as town, most likely in midgame somewhere before I hit my stride and start hitting outright solves. I'd be surprised if scum didn't have at least one person that was aware of this, and Pine has seen a recent enough example to believe it.

5. Alisae, this is specifically to you: I've literally never played with Menalque before. I don't know how he plays. He fits the specific type of player I've been trying to hunt for because the way I'm seeing the game, that specific type is the most likely to hold scum. His response to me was horrific. At best, he has a playstyle that will always result in false positives for me, but I don't actually understand what about him is townreadable unless he just has one of those weird playstyles I can't actually read.

And.
What if I told you.
That in my planned readslist wallpost where I'd explain my read on you.
The entirety of what I was going to say was,
"There's only one world in which Ank is town, and that's if Jingle sniped her before Pine could pick her up"?

this logic is sound, but you also have to apply it the other way: There's only one world in which I'm scum, and that's if I am Pine's first draft.

If I'm not Pine's first draft, then I'm town.

This response, along with her posting around that time, swayed me over to "Okay, yeah, that's probably exactly what happened."
Because I doubted that Ankamius was Pine's first pick--she would be a high priority pick for him, yes, but my read on Pine is that he wouldn't pick her first.
And then with the logic of Jingle being able to snipe picks from Pine he wanted.
And Pine having stated that Jingle did indeed do exactly that.
It followed that, yes--she was in fact drafted by Jingle, before Pine could get her, because I doubted Pine first picked her and thus concluded Jingle picked her first rotation.

I wanted to say that on D1 but never got around to it.

[mastina]

I don't need for you to understand your scumslip. I need everyone else to.

There is no fucking scumslip because your fucking argument of there being one is tangent on something that you yourself acknowledge isn't the case.

[mastina]

u don't get to argue what scum me would do. Ever. You said you wouldn't last game after u were wrong.

Fuck that, the important part here is that you're using the past games as reason to try and detract from my scumread on you rather than arguing why I'm scum.

[mastina]

She did not actually do this day 1 at all, she made it up today.

Try again.
I've been very clear ever since I claimed bodyguard--the proof being in D2 posts--that it was always my plan to be as literally pro-town as possible on D1. I was literally trying my damnedest to do everything town.

D1s I am usually laid back. D1s I am usually fairly jokey. D1s I am usually not very explainy. D1s I usually do basically nothing. But here I went out of my way to phonepost a shitload of content, give long walls, give full readslists, and even give REASONS behind the readslists. I explained my stances, I gave a ton of shit that I normally don't bother to, specifically because I was trying to put in the extra effort on D1. Specifically because I knew that if I did my job, I'd be dead N1. And if I had died N1. I'd have want to leave the most lasting impact possible after my death.

Tell me.

Which has a longer-lasting impact?

Players thinking the bodyguard made a successful protection, thus concluding that a single player, Ankamius, is town...

...Or players thinking that the bodyguard might've eaten the nightkill, thus concluding that her content is worth analyzing, breaking down, reviewing, rereviewing, to look at her stances, her townreads, her scumreads, her thoughts on the gamestate, and so on and so forth?

Which of these has a better impact on the long-term state of the game?
The thing which affects only D2 after which Ank eats the N2 nightkill anyway, or the thing which affects EVERY day phase for the rest of the game as players continuously review who died and theorize as to why?

No fucking shit it's the latter and that is what I was fucking aiming for.
That's stupidly obviously literally the only way to play the role right.

You keep justifying the other parts of the post instead of the scumslip I quoted multiple times.

No?

The "scumslip" you quoted is,

I wanted it to be that when I flipped N1 people

[note the "people" consists entirely of town aligned player]

would wonder if I was Pine's nightkill target

This is a scumclaim

Your argument is that "mastina wanted the town to not know if she was the scum nightkill when making a successful bodyguard protection; this is not a town thought process and is thus a scumslip".
1: The only way I would die N1 if if I wasn't scum. Therefore, this perspective fundamentally, inherently, cannot come from a scum player thinking they die N1 because scum would know they wouldn't die N1. This is obvious.
2: Scum know who they nightkill; scum know who they don't nightkill. Scum might know their kill flavor, too, if kill flavor is a thing which it apparently is. If scum see a bodyguard dead N1 that they didn't nightkill, and their N1 nightkill is alive D2, and the flavor of the N1 bodyguard's death is the scum nightkill's flavor, then scum would know that the bodyguard made a successful protection. This is obvious.
3: Town would not automatically know that the bodyguard successfully protected; they would have to guess.
4: The only way town would know that the bodyguard successfully protected was if the bodyguard was playing so shittily that they couldn't have been nightkilled. BY YOUR OWN CONFESSION, THIS IS NOT OPTIMAL BODYGUARD PLAY.
5: Therefore, if the bodyguard who successfully protected was playing competently, it would be ambiguous. People would not know if I was Pine's nightkill target or if I made a successful protection.
6: This is what I said I wanted to do.
7: You say it's a scumslip because ??????? in spite of everything lining up with known facts and established perspectives.

[mastina]

She thought she was LAMISTing because she didn't shift her mindset all the way around to town!mastina and realize that Pine would know who the nightkill target is because he submitted it. So she LAMISSed. She did not actually do this day 1 at all, she made it up today.

I get the "trying to make people wonder if I was the NK" part is weird and anti-town.

1: it can't come from scum because scum can't be the nightkill.
2: Trying to make people wonder if I was the nightkill is in no way shape nor form anti-town for the established reasons of
-People wondering if I was the nightkill means that I was playing competently rather than shittily; competently > shittily 100% of the time
-People wondering if I was the nightkill means that throughout the entire game they revisit my reads, my reasons, and my stances, rather than writing me off on D2 as "oh she protected Ank, Ank's town" and then never batting an eye at it again least of all after Ank eats the N2 nightkill.
People revisiting my reads and my reasons, my stances, what I was doing, can never be anti-town.

See also, what Menalque is doing with jjh's stances.
Pine said, and no doubt wasn't lying, he killed jjh because he thought jjh was a power role.
In spite of Pine having said that, Menalque is looking at jjh's content and going "Okay, but why else would he die? Maybe he died because of X Y Z".
That can never be anti-town.

[mastina]

It's just a way of trying to guess at the agenda that caused her to be posting "I wanted something antitown day1". There are lots of different red PM reasons for scumstina to end up posting it, but the important thing is that it's not possible for towntina to post it.

"I wanted to be protown enough to make it ambiguous as to whether I died with a successful protection or just was outright the scum nightkill" (what I said)--> "I wanted something antitown D1" (what popsoftown is saying I said).

Sounds legit!

[mastina]

I've skipped at least 25% of the game.

town!mastina has to read every single post and respond to literally every single thing she sees. I even have a quote of you saying this.

Provably and demonstrably false.

Want me to link the multitude of VERY FUCKING RECENT GAMES like LESS THAN TWO MONTHS OLD where I didn't do that?

Oh and guess what my alignments were in those games where I didn't do that?

Your meta on me is fucking outdated.
I changed.
This change wasn't from scumastina and I have the fucking towngames to prove it.

[mastina]

Your meta on me is fucking outdated.
I changed.

why and how did said change happen?

Like I fucking know? It just did. I changed. My meta isn't fucking stagnant. My playstyle evolves. This was an evolution. (Evolve, devolve...sidevolve, whatever. ) I don't even know when it changed and I don't even know why it did. That doesn't change the fact that it fucking did and I can prove it did. I wouldn't be able to track down the first game where it did nor even if I could would that game tell you why it did. It is one of those things that frankly I didn't even notice or even think about having changed, it's something that just happened, and I didn't notice it until you pointed it out. Because the change was that small, that natural, to make. The change was something I did without actively thinking "oh yeah I'm going to change that", the change is something which changed on its own without me having really noticed I had changed.

These are the threads which I've posted in within the last year.
MBoS4, Undertale, Completely Normal, Krazy's Anime UPick, Any Non Dead Person, Timeshift 4, Restless Spirits, MBoS 5, Vengeful Ghosts, Pokemon Fusion UPick, and I Don't Remember The Name of this Game.

Try skimming my iso in those games (the only one which is a hydra is Undertale and which posts are mine is something that is covered in-game so if you can't tell initially, if you keep reading the iso we go over which ones were me, which ones were me pretending to be Yume, and which ones were just actually Yume, there) and you'll refamiliarize yourself with the current mastina meta.

[mastina]

It's just a way of trying to guess at the agenda that caused her to be posting "I wanted something antitown day1". There are lots of different red PM reasons for scumstina to end up posting it, but the important thing is that it's not possible for towntina to post it.

"I wanted to be protown enough to make it ambiguous as to whether I died with a successful protection or just was outright the scum nightkill" (what I said)--> "I wanted something antitown D1" (what popsoftown is saying I said).

Sounds legit!

You are trying to edit your post to " I wanted something even though it has a bad side effect". What you posted was "I want the bad side effect."

Oh let's go back to what I originally said then, shall we?

she's on a precipice where she should be able to obvtown very fucking quickly.

I was obvtown from D1 alone.

I was playing in a way where on D1 I wanted it to be that when I flipped N1 people would wonder if I was Pine's nightkill target or if I pulled off a successful protection

--I, personally, would know it was the latter. I, personally, would've known Pine never nightkills me this game no matter how pro-town I've been.

But I wanted to be so damn town that to

other people

they wouldn't be able to tell if I made a successful protection or was just that damn town to earn a direct nightkill.

I didn't even get to read everything, I didn't even get to do everything I wanted to do (for instance, on D1 there were at least two or three occasions where I wanted to explain that my bulletproof vig with a neighborhood with Pine claim was self-evidently obviously a joke which I thought would be fun and Pine would find funny and was disappointed Pine didn't riff off of it at all), but I didn't NEED to do everything I wanted to do. I never as town get to do everything I want to do, doesn't mean I don't still manage to get ENOUGH done.

Yet alone D2 and D3.

You only need one day to realize I'm never scum here and yet you've got three.

I literally said:
I wanted to be so damn town that to other people they wouldn't be able to tell if I made a successful protection or was just that damn town to earn a direct nightkill.
1: This requires me to be the N1 scum nightkill. Not possible if I am myself scum.
2: This requires me to not flip scum. Not possible if I am scum.
3: This requires me to be playing so damn town that people can't tell if I made a successful protection or was directly nightkilled.
What in that is "I wanted that bad side effect"?
People not being able to tell if I made a successful protection or was directly nightkilled is a

good

thing, not a fucking bad one.
And you never countered my explanation as to why.
You never said otherwise.
In fact you fucking agreed with me by saying a bodyguard shouldn't be playing shittily.

[mastina]

mastina, why, given that ank is considered such a strong scumplayer, did you think that pine didn't draft just draft her first?

Because of knowing Pine.
I have a reasonable look into his mindset.
My look into his mindset isn't perfect.
It's not infallible.
But my look into Pine's mindset said that Ankamius was

probably

not his first pick. And with the probability of her not being Pine's first pick comes the certainty that Jingle sniped her from him. The only way she'd be scum then was if Pine, out of EVERY player in the ENTIRE game, prioritized Ankamius above all other options. And while she was a high priority pick, I didn't think she'd be the

highest

priority pick, not least of all because while Ank is a strong scum player, she's probably not even top ten when it comes to scum player strength in this game; there's probably at least ten players in the game who I'd call stronger scum players than Ank and a good five to ten extra players who I'd rate AT Ankamius's scumplay strength. (Mostly because pretty much everyone in this game is a skilled scum player, mind you.)

who did you think he would draft ahead of her and why were you confident enough that said person would be a higher draft pick for pine that it would make ank town?

I didn't think of who was first, so much as I thought who wouldn't be first. I considered possible first picks of jjh, Aristophanes in spite of saying Pine wouldn't first pick him twice, Krazy, and the worst, but fucked if I know. After Ank died, on D2, I later considered it could've been first pick Firebringer, but since that only was a thought occurring to me AFTER Ank died, it's not really as pertinent.

[mastina]

Pops explain to me the scumslip loudly and clearly please.

Mastina knows that it is often pro-town to hide information as PR.

Yes, and hiding the fact that you died via bodyguarding successfully rather than died via being directly killed by scum isn't an example of this...

...Why?

But when she bragged about information hiding, it involved a hypothetical about mastina getting shot. Mastina knows she cannot get shot because she is scum, so this hypothetical is purely imaginary. In the hypothetical, she gets shot, or maybe Ank does, it's unclear. She bragged about playing a way day 1 that would make this unclear, and she bragged to look town because obscuring information as town PR is often protown, so she thinks it makes her look good.

So this is changing your narrative from "mastina scumslipped" to "mastina made a play which is Look At Me I'm So Town and I think that play comes from her as scum".

Good to know!

She didn't count out how the way the information would be hidden would hide it only from town, and not hide any information from scum, so it's not protown at all.

You keep saying this in spite of not addressing why this is false and I've explained multiple times in multiple ways precisely why it IS protown and yet you choose actively to ignore this to support your flawed narrative.

You're forcing the facts to fit the narrative rather than fitting the narrative to the facts.

[mastina]

Another way to look at it that maybe has a more down to earth angle is that it's very offtune that she was excited and tooting her horn about being an extremely viable N1 kill as bodyguard when bodyguard is a roll that makes it way less exciting to be an extremely viable N1 kill, less exciting than VT.

Outright false; I never said I'd be the N1 nightkill and in fact explicitly said otherwise--I am never the N1 nightkill but if I die N1 to a successful protection as a bodyguard, I wouldn't be able to tell the town this postmortem and I wouldn't be able to tell the town that premortem either without giving away the fact that I am a bodyguard (thus ensuring a successful protection isn't possible).

Thus, if I was playing protown.

Which is what I was aiming to do D1.

Then it would inherently be ambiguous to the town.

And that ambiguity, which I've explained why it's a fucking good thing and which you've repeatedly fucking ignored, is not antitown; it is incredibly protown.

[mastina]

do we actually get any choice in lynch today

Yes.

This isn't a fucking gladiate.

This is a fucking lynch.

Choosing not to vote Firebringer because he has a fucking governor is not fucking town.

You lynch someone who is fucking scum.

If you hit scum and it isn't governed, it's a fucking scum lynch.
If you hit scum and it is governed, it's a no lynch but congratulations, you now know that you hit fucking scum.
If you deliberately mislynch town because "oh we can't lynch scum today", it is a fucking self-fulfilling prophecy and then OH GUESS WHAT YOU LYNCHED TOWN because you didn't think it was fucking possible to lynch scum.

[mastina]

She would play protown as BG, but she would not play protown specifically for the purpose of weakening the utility of her BG role by obscuring its informational value.

And when did I say that playing protown was specifically for the purpose of weakening the utility of my BG role by obscuring its informational value?

I said I was playing protown; I was aiming to get off a successful protection; I was playing protown specifically because I wanted to get off a successful protection.

What in that weakens the utility of the bodyguard role?

That's fucking strengthening the utility of bodyguard, not fucking weakening it.

[mastina]

She would play protown as BG, but she would not play protown specifically for the purpose of weakening the utility of her BG role by obscuring its informational value. She perspective slipped about which faction gets informational value out of BG.

Mastina's not dumb, why are you arguing that she is?

Are you throwing a too wolf to be wolf defense?

No, but you're arguing the inverse, that I deliberately went Too Town for me To Be Town.

[mastina]

mastina will flip scum

Yeah just like DGB flipped scum. That sure worked out well.

[mastina]

Ambiguity
To the town
Is protown

Explicitly so, yes!

I asked this in a very fucking simple question.
A two-line.
Almost just two sentence.
Question.

Tell me. Which has a longer-lasting impact?

Players thinking the bodyguard made a successful protection, thus concluding that a single player, Ankamius, is town...

...Or players thinking that the bodyguard might've eaten the nightkill, thus concluding that her content is worth analyzing, breaking down, reviewing, rereviewing, to look at her stances, her townreads, her scumreads, her thoughts on the gamestate, and so on and so forth?

Which of these has a better impact on the long-term state of the game?
The thing which affects only D2 after which Ank eats the N2 nightkill anyway, or the thing which affects EVERY day phase for the rest of the game as players continuously review who died and theorize as to why?

One of these is unambiguous, the other one is ambiguous.
One of these has a short-term benefit to the town and is then immediately worthless to the town for the rest of the game.
The other of these has a long-term benefit to the town which will never stop giving value to the town.
Guess which is which.

[mastina]

Pops is town regardless of what mastina is btw

X

[mastina]

mastina is playing in a way that makes her hard to lynch, not makes her town.

The two right now are one and the same.

I have been town since D1.

I am being fucking lynched in spite of being fucking town and self-evidently, PAINFULLY obviously fucking so.

is it explicitly AI? not really.
is it town indicative? explicitly no.

Provably and demonstrably false.

I have never fucking fought this hard against a lynch on me as scum.
Want me to prove it?
I can link you to literally every scumgame of mine which isn't multiball and the proof will be right there for you.
None of them, NONE of them.
Absofuckinglutely NONE of those fucking games.
Have me fighting this hard against a lynch on me, when I was scum.

I have, many fucking times, fought this hard against a lynch on me as town.
And many fucking times I have even heard people say to me in those towngames, "mastina fighting this hard against her lynch doesn't make her town", and in some cases even "mastina fighting this hard against her lynch makes her scum".

They've never been right about that because it's never fucking happened because I don't fucking fight against my lynches like this as scum.

Want a comparison?
It's quite easy to do.

[mastina]

I think pops' argument is shit and is intentionally missing the point

Explicitly so, yes!

[mastina]

like, the argument is not that ambiguity to the town is protown
the argument is that being as protown as possible causes ambiguity to the town
I don't think pops is a bad player or incapable of seeing subtleties like this, so I think she' intentionally misrepping Mastina
if I'm wrong tell me where?

You're not.

Btw fuck the chance Menalque's a deepwolf--Menalque this day phase has moved from a weaker townread to powertown neverlynch.

[mastina]

why are u2 voting krazy

Because they want to vote scum and Krazy is scum this game.
VOTE: Krazy

[mastina]

i am more confident on him than a mastina lynch
out of fire's allowed pool I would prefer there

okay but why tho

Because Alisae this is my fucking towngame and literally everyone who has fucking played with me in the last fucking year knows it and has stated as much; the ones who haven't said I'm town in spite of playing with me in the last fucking year--SPOILER ALERT!--are the players who are most fucking likely to actually be fucking scum.

popsoftown, Firebringer, and the worst all top that chart because all three of them should fucking know that this is my towngame through and through.

[mastina]

Menalque this day phase has moved from a weaker townread to powertown neverlynch.

huh
how

Simple, really.

He's one of the only players in the game right now who has repeatedly proven they have a fucking brain--sure scum can do that via whiteknighting, but that's why I said "fuckit", I'm discarding the paranoia revolving around "he could be scum whiteknighting me" and just going for the solution of "he's town who is actually fucking sane" in a game where the town is intent on not fucking listening to basic logic and reasoning and in fact deliberately going out of their way to ignore it, our lovely IC included.

If he's scum he frankly earned the win. No need for Pine to take any credit for the win, Menalque if he's scum with what he's done has just on his own proven he's worth winning because his play today is just that damn town. His reads, his reasoning, what he's saying, what he's doing. It's all exceptionally

good

. I don't agree with everything he says, because his reads aren't a direct clone of mine, but the fact that they aren't a direct clone of mine is part of what cements him as that townread because it shows he's not copying me and he's not buddying me. (Not that there'd be much incentive to buddy a role which frankly can still eat a nightkill any fucking night if lucky enough to make the right prediction.)

[mastina]

I'm more interested in why krazy in particular

Simple.
Exercise.
Take a look at literally any Krazy towngame this year.
What is he doing in those games?

Scumhunting a plenty. Active, giving content, giving reads. Doesn't matter what the pace of the game is, doesn't matter what's happening in his life, doesn't matter how V/LA he is. He has contributed content, reads, reasons, to all of them. Sometimes with a slow start, but he's always giving eventually and it's always good, solid stuff with good reasoning, good logic, sound stances that even if they aren't correct you can follow and understand the logic behind him having taken those stances, and these stances are based around players' content and him commenting on them.

Exercise.
Take a look at the majority of Krazy's scumgames this year.
What is he doing in those games?
Pretty much jackshit. When he does contribute, a lot of his content as scum revolves around mechanics and theorizing about what those mechanics mean for the game.

Now tell me.
Which of those two resembles his play this game?

THAT is why Krazy is scum.

[mastina]

Menalque this day phase has moved from a weaker townread to powertown neverlynch.

huh
how

Simple, really.

He's one of the only players in the game right now who has repeatedly proven they have a fucking brain--sure scum can do that via whiteknighting, but that's why I said "fuckit", I'm discarding the paranoia revolving around "he could be scum whiteknighting me" and just going for the solution of "he's town who is actually fucking sane" in a game where the town is intent on not fucking listening to basic logic and reasoning and in fact deliberately going out of their way to ignore it, our lovely IC included.

If he's scum he frankly earned the win. No need for Pine to take any credit for the win, Menalque if he's scum with what he's done has just on his own proven he's worth winning because his play today is just that damn town. His reads, his reasoning, what he's saying, what he's doing. It's all exceptionally

good

. I don't agree with everything he says, because his reads aren't a direct clone of mine, but the fact that they aren't a direct clone of mine is part of what cements him as that townread because it shows he's not copying me and he's not buddying me. (Not that there'd be much incentive to buddy a role which frankly can still eat a nightkill any fucking night if lucky enough to make the right prediction.)

I don't even want to be lynching you I want to be lynching SS

I mean SS is more likely town than not in my opinion but if you want to fucking lynch SS there's nothing fucking stopping you from it.
Scum trying to hold the game hostage via a governor?
You have nobody but yourself to fucking blame if you cave into that blackmail.

[mastina]

I'm more interested in why krazy in particular

Simple.
Exercise.
Take a look at literally any Krazy towngame this year.
What is he doing in those games?

Scumhunting a plenty. Active, giving content, giving reads. Doesn't matter what the pace of the game is, doesn't matter what's happening in his life, doesn't matter how V/LA he is. He has contributed content, reads, reasons, to all of them. Sometimes with a slow start, but he's always giving eventually and it's always good, solid stuff with good reasoning, good logic, sound stances that even if they aren't correct you can follow and understand the logic behind him having taken those stances, and these stances are based around players' content and him commenting on them.

Exercise.
Take a look at the majority of Krazy's scumgames this year.
What is he doing in those games?
Pretty much jackshit. When he does contribute, a lot of his content as scum revolves around mechanics and theorizing about what those mechanics mean for the game.

Now tell me.
Which of those two resembles his play this game?

THAT is why Krazy is scum.

this game resembles his towngame mastina
this is going off of your description

No?
This game Krazy has done pretty much jackshit. What he HAS done has mostly revolved around mechanics, something he's far more comfortable dealing with when he's scum.
Point me to his fucking content because it is borderline nonexistent.

[mastina]

Can you guys stop making this terrible
Fire you're scum, we get it. Please stop antagonizing our innocent child treestump.

SS, I have been protecting your ass all day. What the hell is wrong with you.

It's called "SS is probably actually town who critically analyzed the situation and concluded Firebringer was scum whiteknighting him".

(SS for the record is another one of the town players I'd call having a brain this day phase. )

[mastina]

I want out of the game and to never touch a mafia game ever again to be honest

Well you're sure headed for the fastest way to achieve exactly that given it'll take less time for scum to win than town.

[mastina]

Pine didn't pick me because I am a poor choice. I, similarly to Krazy, feel miserable as scum.

So we shouldn't scumread you because you're a poor choice, but Krazy is your second biggest scumread.
I smell something... something fishy... something... like bullshit

Those don't contradict each other; they augment each other.

Krazy is a strong scumread of mine because it is self-evident that he is miserable this game when as scum he would be miserable.
I am town because if I were scum I would be miserable but this game I am very definitively not.

Well.

Not miserable in the way I would be miserable as scum.

If I were miserable as scum I would be doing exactly what Krazy who is miserable scum is doing: I would be posting as little as was humanly possible, doing as little as humanly possible, and basically just popping in with the bare minimum level of effort necessary.

My misery this game comes from an entirely different source.

Namely.

Ari is controversial for WKing LLD.

That's not why Aristophanes is scum, though it is something Aristophanes would do as scum.
Aristophanes is scum because of what he brings to the scumteam, the value Pine sees in Aristophanes, and what Aristophanes has done all game. What stances he's taken, what plays he's made, his tone, his content, his everything. The pushes he's made, the content he's providing, it all looks like his top-form scumgame rather than his natural towngame. Mostly, you can tell this by one simple fact;
Aristophanes this game is trying harder than he would be as town.
Yes, traditionally, Aristophanes as scum is a lurksack who does nothing; traditionally, town-Aristophanes usually does nothing for quite a bit and then ends up trying hard.

But this is an Aristophanes whose tryhardness is above and beyond the call to duty--this is an Aristophanes with something to prove, and Aristophanes as town would have nothing to prove.

Maybe I do have something to prove! Maybe it'll prove itself in time XD

Aristophanes has died!
He was:

You're a

Novice Desperado Loyal Retainer

to the rightful Lord of the Land, Alisae. Unfortunately, the wicked tree that controls the Dark Forest has been acting up, causing insurrections left and right. Alisae has called an end to this nonsense, and is preparing to ride forth. Some of my messages have been compromised, however, and a few among you were recruited by the terrible monster to put an end to our quest before it even begins!
We must purge our party of those who have no loyalty, or we shall surely fail.
Abilities:

(Novice Desperado)

Once per game, during the day, you may target a player by posting Kill: [Player]. If that player is a Loyal Retainer of Alisae, you will die. Otherwise, they will die. You may not use this ability until Day 2.[/spoiler]Votes are reset, the day continues. I'll freshen up the formatting tomorrow.

Fuck this game.

[mastina]

Tired of mastina calling scum to players when her stance on herself and other players is "anyone is a good pick for Pine, if someone wasn't a good pick, they wouldn't be in the game".

And by the way?

Pink Ball loses the entirety of his fucking townread for this massive fucking misrep of me.

Anyone is a good pick for Pine--and if they weren't, they wouldn't be in the game.

This is true.

That doesn't mean there aren't players who are better picks to make than others; that doesn't mean there aren't players who are more likely to be picked; that doesn't mean picks can't be hypothesized, picks can't be theorized, picks can't be discussed.

Anyone could've been picked, but as I said before, the question to ask isn't why Pine would or wouldn't pick someone; the question is why Pine did or didn't pick them. The former is a shitty question which you will never get good answers for. The latter is something that can be talked about, discussed, debated, and so on and so forth and that is precisely what I have done, outlined who I think Pine did pick and who I think Pine did not pick and the whys behind it.

Mastina is not really playing the game.

Yes because me giving my reads on the entire playerlist along with reasons why, and continuing to engage on those reads the entire fucking game. Is totally me not playing the game. Me explaining my stances, engaging players and pushing my stances. Is totally me not playing the game. Me being in a situation where by every fucking right I should be conftown and then after by EVERY FUCKING RIGHT ME SHOULD BE CONFTOWN BEING CALLED SCUM BY HALF THE TOWN.

Is totally me not playing the game.

And she's actually a good pick for Pine

Bullshit.
I have gotten mislynched or misvigged in almost every fucking game I have played this year and even in the games I didn't get either of those I came damn fucking close. L-1 in Undertale comes to mind for instance as does the fact that I was being lined up to be the next lynch in Skygazer's Everything Normal and only averted it because the last scum was lynched so the town can't mislynch me when the game's over in a town win before they can. Fuck even in xyzzy's anyone can post, game, I was almost fucking lynched although to be fair it was a crossvote between me and a different town player so scum could've picked anyone they wanted to to be the lynch and it'd have gone through and it was almost a coinflip where they did lynch me.

Mislynched.
Or misvigged.
In almost every. fucking. game.
I have played.

What makes that magically change with me being scum?
What makes me magically stop being an easy town lynch?
What makes scumastina magically, mystically, go from being a town mislynch as town, to not being lynched as scum?
...Anything?

...No?

Okay, so we've fucking established that if I am scum I still get fucking lynched. So my value can't be in me living to the endgame.
So what other value do I provide?
I can set up my scumteam for success after I am lynched.
Okay, then why was LLD scum, and why was LLD scum specifically the D1 lynch? LLD filled that role for the scumteam. Pine WANTED us to focus on her D1 and focus on her D1 we did indeed. LLD filled this role on the scumteam; are you seriously going to posit that Pine doubled down on having not one but TWO, a full THIRD OF HIS SCUMTEAM, be fucking sacrificial lambs?

Because suggesting I am scum this game when LLD flipped scum is suggesting exactly fucking that.

Okay.
So my value as scum isn't that I endgame.
My value as scum isn't that I prop up my scumbuddies.
What value does that leave in my scumplay?
Propping my scumteam up? I am a bossy bitch; that is not a skill which is really in my repertoire. It can happen, but only if I am on a scumteam where I've got good friends as my scumbuddies, and even then it's not a guarantee. (For instance RC's game had my scumteam and I heavily fight with one another behind the scenes in spite of me being entirely surrounded by friends in it. That was literally one of the best scumteams I could ask for in terms of propping up my scumteam, and I

didn't do it then

because as I said: it's not a skill which is really in my repertoire.)
Speculating as to the identity of town PRs?
I don't fucking PR hunt as scum; this is not a skill scumastina would thus bring to Pine's scumteam.
Working on mechanics to shut down any town mechanical solve?
That's literally the closest to a possible skill Pine could see value in picking me for, and that is still not my specialty as scum.
Crafting fakeclaims for my team?
My modus operandi as scum is to tell the fucking truth and encourage my scumteam to do the same.
Help Pine create a plan?
So what's the fucking plan I helped create then? This scumteam is not fucking following any plan I'd have made and the jjh kill is fucking proof of that. (jjh was, by the way, a scumread and good fucking luck finding a scumgame of mine where I kill a fucking player I am scumreading.)

What makes me a good pick for Pine this game, pray tell?

Absofuckinglutely nothing, at least given the known and proven facts so far in the game given what has happened and what we know has transpired thusfar.

There is good reason for me to be picked in theory--there is such reasoning for every player to be picked. Every player has a reason they would be picked and I am no exception to that. There is damn fucking good reason Pine DIDN'T pick me.

along with PP. Called them out on D1, they're both scum.

Oh yes I am scum with a player who I would happily fucking lynch because I was literally the first fucking person to call PenguinPower possible scum on D1. Right. That's how scumastina plays these days.

[mastina]

Having those 2 slots resolved NOW is actually game changing.

I mean I called SS as town anyway so. Far from helpful to me given that Aristophanes's role perfectly explains his play.

He had a similar incentive I had to tryhard.

I identified him tryharding as him having something to prove and thought that could only come from scum.

Him having a role designed to die perfectly explains his tryharding and I know that all too fucking well because no fucking shit I did literally the same fucking thing, I just thought that there wasn't another role like that designed to die.

[mastina]

hey mastina
you wanna break down every single post krazy wrote and why its a scumpost
i'm not seeing it

Not really, no. That takes time and effort and if I said I'd do it it'd be a lie because :effort:.

The cliffnotes:
literally randomly selected snippets of his iso.

No joke, I pressed the iso button, started from the top, then randomly scrolled down, selected a random post from the screen, scrolled down some more, selected a random post from the screen, and so on and so forth and eventually wrapped around to the top again doing this process. Those show his typical level of contribution this game.

There is basically no scumhunting done in those posts.
There is mechanics talk. "Pine might do X because of Y". "Ank might do X because of Y". There is some fluff. There is a consistent trend of not doing shit.

Krazy was scum this game. I'm not like absolutely 100% sure which head he is (not Black Widow, not Hulk, not Loki, probably not Captain America, so best guess is Iron Man), but his contributions there were basically nil. He let his other heads carry him. He did nothing pretty much the whole game.

This is another scum hydra of his. He was the Chito head in it. You know what Krazy's first post in there (that I can tell) was?
This.
And then this.
And then questions about mechanics. GEE THAT SOUNDS FAMILIAR I WONDER WHY.
The bare minimum, because Krazy hated that game.

Compare and contrast:
Krazy's contribution to this game as Katwoman.
Does a post like this exist in this game from Krazy?
Has Krazy shown conviction like this in this game?
Even something as simple as this, does Krazy have in this game?
Has Krazy given logic like this post in this game? Sure, yes, he's done speculation. "Pine could pick X because Y". But that's not logic, not really. That's hypotheticals. Krazy's post here in Vengeful was him giving solid analysis based on the current game compared to previous games; Krazy's posts this game was him speculating on Pine without giving critical thought on the current game.
Has Krazy given reasoning where he works with town players and walks through reads like he did in this post?

Another example, Krazy's contribution to this game as Pikachu. (Largely unsigned but still readable as him.) You can look around here for posts which are pretty damn clearly his in said iso.
None of that type of posting exists this game.

Want a non-hydra (albeit still alt) performance?
You can look here. As a slightly troll alt, content is a little more sparse, but you still can see insights like this which are absent from this game, along with other things like this. In general, if you read that iso it has an entirely different tone from his iso this game and not because he's on an alt. In that game, he was doing trollish stuff, sure, lots of banter and shitposting, but in the shitposting there was still visible content, content which you could get usable material out of and which you could discern stances and opinions on players and even an idea of his reasoning. He didn't hide behind mechanics, he didn't hide behind basically active lurking. He did shit.

Here's another hydra, as DJ K. You know what he was doing there, as town? Pretty damn much most of their posting.
There's content like this. There is conviction like this. Engagement like this. Like, that game shows Krazy at his peak town performance levels pretty much in how he was always posting always giving content always engaged and it is everything which Krazy isn't in this fucking game.

Another towngame, he was Weiss. With immediate content like these posts, something which continued throughout the duration of his time alive. Talks like this are nigh-nonexistent. There's content like this. Reads. Stances. Reasoning. He gives it all.

Need more?
How about this game where he as Chito was a post leader? I can sample basically any point for examples of some pretty damn good where Krazy posted content.

This is Krazy's scumgame because he is doing all the things he does as scum and none of the things he does as town.

[mastina]

I'm curious why you seem to be thinking I'm "miserable" this game

Because if you weren't miserable you'd actually be playing the damn game and yet in spite of having over 100 posts it is apparent you aren't.

[mastina]

Anyone is a good pick for Pine--and if they weren't, they wouldn't be in the game.

not true
Pine actually considered not inviting you but I told him that he should because games are meant to be played with friends.

Um.
If that were true.
Why the fuck do you think I'm scum?
If you think my statement of "Anyone is a good pick for Pine; if they weren't a good pick, they wouldn't be in the game" isn't true because Pine almost didn't invite me to the game.
Why the fuck do you think that in spite of me apparently almost not being invited and thus by my logic not being a good pick, Pine picked me?

If what you're saying is true then it's pretty damn fucking strong proof that I'm town.

[mastina]

Anyway, I was thinking mastina is town. And she still might be town actually. But given I've basically retired from this site precisely because literally everyone on this site seems unable to go a game without getting into interpersonal drama that goes beyond the game (myself included), I'm kinda over just letting mastina try to read me based on whether I'm "miserable" or not. She knows I was miserable in pretty much every game I've played on this site in the last few months regardless of alignment.

Still.
The difference between your towngames and your scumgames is night and fucking day.
Your towngames have had miserable moments in them but in spite of the miserable moments they still had LIFE to them.
Your scumgames have been nothing but misery and maybe because of the miserable moments they had no life to them.
This game you have no life to you.

A I think the fact that we're ignoring her most likely check is nonsense.

What if I said that if I were to actually give a guess as to who she hid behind my guess would be you?

I'm like, looking at her play, and her reads are just... not good enough to be town mastina.

Also bullshit. I am known, proven, demonstrably, a shitty scumhunter. My read accuracy in general is random

at best

and is usually BELOW RANDOM ODDS.

This is a known, demonstratable, fact about me. It is something that everyone knows about me.
I have strengths as a town player.
Those strengths are not good, accurate scumreads.
If anything it'd be reasonably decent townreads and what townreads have I gotten right so far?
Ankamius, kinda sorta vaguely Nacho (but ehhh debatable there), Chickadee, and Something_Smart.
What townreads of mine have I gotten wrong?
I mean...technically I guess you can strictly speaking say in a sense LLD if you're going to be incredibly literal since technically strictly speaking I did say "she's more likely to be town than scum".

I have never been known for accurate scumreads and I have also been known infamously to have one scum I end up hard-defending at some point in the game or another, a fact which has been shown in numerous games. Tatsuya's Anime UPick, Krazy's Anime UPick, schadd's MBoS 4, momo's Can't Remember The Name of This Game, how many others? Those are just the ones which IMMEDIATELY pop into my head, I'm sure there are plenty more beyond that. Games where I hard defended at least one scum, possibly defending a second scum, too.

By proxy of having hard defended scum in those games, you can also then reasonably deduce that I hard pushed town as being scum in those very same games because obviously if there's at least one scum I thought was town that means there was going to be at least one town player I thought was scum.

My reads are provably, demonstrably, shit--saying "mastina's better than this as town" is literally the way over half my fucking mislynches happened because in spite of me giving this spew every fucking time the logic is still fucking given and it has never fucking held true.

I'm kinda done dealing with her after how lazily she tunneled me in EICN.

What Krazy conveniently leaves out is that I made a key error in that game: I misidentified which head he was. I thought all of HIS posting wasn't his, and that all of his PARTNER'S posting was his, and THAT was the source of my scumread on him that game.

I stated this multiple times and he fucking knows that's the source of my scumread on him from that game--not that I thought his posting was scum, but that I erroneously identified his hydra partner as being him and thinking his hydra partner was him, I thought "his" content was scum.
Had I correctly understood which head was Krazy, then I would've instantly known he was town because I would've known his content made him town.

[mastina]

Right now it feels like that's the conclusion she reached because that's the order she decided to put names in in her reads list and now that Ari and jjh are dead she feels compelled to continue going up the list regardless of anything else that happens in the game.

I mean.
Pretty much, yes?

I continue going up the list regardless of anything else that happens in the game if the events that happen in the game don't affect the other aspects of the list.

Why the fuck wouldn't I.

When I fucking go in expecting to be wrong (even though I always work under the assumption I am right because the game is literally unplayable if you assume you're wrong), which you fucking know I always do.

Why the fuck when it's shown that I am wrong do you think that I'd go "oh I must reevaluate everything, shut down, reset, restart, throw everything I had out the window"?
When I am shown wrong, the things which I had thought that are directly tied to the thing shown wrong I discard--if I assume player X is scum and from this assumed Y was scum and Z was town, and player X flips town, then yes, I reassess player Y being scum and player Z being town.
But if I assume Player X is scum and unrelated to this assume player Y was scum and unrelated to this assume player Z is town, then player X flipping town does nothing to make me reassess player Y being scum and does nothing to make me reassess player Z being town because those reads were unrelated to the erroneous read on player X.

My scumread on you was never tied to jjh.
My scumread on you was never tied to Aristophanes.
My scumread on jjh/Ari was never tied to Ari/jjh.
Why would either of them flipping town magically make me reassess my read on you when my read on you was utterly unrelated to my read on them?

After all I said on numerous fucking occasions.
"These are my strongest scumreads. I don't think they are a scumteam together, but that doesn't stop me from scumreading them".
Inherent in that statement is that I know I have erroneous scumreads and that at least one player I am scumreading is town.
Inherent in that statement is that I know I will be proven wrong at some point, potentially repeatedly if it turns out I'm 1-2 on reads rather than the optimal 3-0.
I can repeatedly quote the instances of me saying precisely this and you if you're so much as fucking pretending to read my iso don't need me to because you'd be able to see them plain as day.

So no fucking shit I push you even after Aristophanes and jjh die.
Because them flipping town, while a reason for me to go "fuck this game", doesn't magically make my scumread on you wrong.
7-for-7, or in this case its inverse, 0-for-2, is still a logical fallacy and you fucking know it is.

[mastina]

Right now it feels like that's the conclusion she reached because that's the order she decided to put names in in her reads list and now that Ari and jjh are dead she feels compelled to continue going up the list regardless of anything else that happens in the game. Which is basically how I felt about her in Story Revisited.

but
wait
isn't this something that mastina does all of the time?

It is.
Which is why Krazy saying it's scum indicative is absolute horseshit.
It's not something I only do as scum; it's something I do literally every fucking game. Which means sure yeah I do it as scum in like the 1/20 games a year where I rand scum but in the 19/20 games where I'm just town I do it just as much if not more.

[mastina]

Sometimes it feels that way, but when she's town she also tends to just voluntarily produce these unreadable volumes about her thought process.

Oh yes and I've totally lacked that this game.

It's not like I've been wearing my fucking heart on my sleeve laying out my process behind how I approached my role.
It's not like I've been describing my thoughts about my process behind my reads.
It's not like I've been describing my thoughts about players, how I came to conclusions and so on and so forth.
I mean surely such things are absent from my iso, right?

I feel like I got her to reevaluate several points there

I have reevaluated this game and the proof is in my readslists and the shifts in them.
Numerous players have moved up and down in positioning in them and those reads were not formed entirely on my own; it was the feedback of others which helped position them.

Pretending I haven't reevaluated won't magically make it true.

Just because some players haven't shifted positioning doesn't mean no reevaluation has happened.
Just because you've remained a scumread doesn't mean there hasn't been players who I've reevaluated.
And sure I reevaluated several points in Tatsuya's Anime UPick--but to say that while ignoring that there were several points in that game I

didn't

reevaluate, which I DIDN'T shift my positioning on, is disingenuous as fuck.

she IS reactive as town in a way she kinda isn't as scum

Yeah sure as fuck am!
And what the fuck is this game if not the fucking definition of me being reactive in a way which I'm not as scum.

[mastina]

I think I got to get a sense of town mastina through her rob read. Not because she moved a scum player from null to scum over the course of two day phases, but because I actually felt like she was engaging with my questions about her read and because I felt like I could actually understand her thought process.

Just because I haven't engaged

you

doesn't mean that engagement doesn't exist.

Pretending I haven't engaged players who have questioned my reads and explained my thought process when I fucking have and in fact have gone out of my way to do it in some cases (for instance, the reason why I stopped slacking off on my first wallpost readslist was specifically because Ank wanted mine and Dann's readslists before the end of the day and I did it specifically because she wanted me to do it) won't magically make it so that I didn't.

So she can have superficial thought processes as town, but generally her thought process is significantly more fluid as town than as scum.

Oh yes and my scumread on you sure is proof of lacking fluid thought process.

It's not like I've reevaluated other slots in the game.
It's not like I've explained how my reads on other players has shifted, has changed.
It's not like there's been a fluidity in my reads regarding half the playerlist.

OH WAIT.

[mastina]

Interesting turnabout from "mastina is a God of scumplay".

There isn't any turnaround.
I am a 'god of scumplay' (quotation marks because not really but your terminology so) in some regards.
The ways I am a good scum player, however, are ways which FOR THIS GAME. With THIS PLAYERLIST. And who PINE IS PROVEN TO HAVE PICKED. (Along with those he is proven to have not picked.) Make me a shitty choice to select.

There is no contradiction between "mastina is good as scum" and "mastina isn't a good choice to be scum this game" when the things which make me good as scum are things which Pine wouldn't be able to utilize in this game.

Just because someone is good as scum does not mean they are the right choice to be scum in every single game.
Like all players, I have my strengths and my weaknesses.
These strengths and weaknesses are more obvious in my towngame, especially the weaknesses albeit not as much the strengths.
But that doesn't mean my scumplay lacks them. While the strengths of my scumplay are more obvious than the weaknesses of my scumplay, it is still just plain outright fact that scumastina has weaknesses which are exploitable. In a different game, the strength of those strengths would outweigh the weakness of those weaknesses.

In this game, the strength of those strengths is outweighed by the weakness of those weaknesses.

It's not that I am a bad pick for Pine in general.

It's that IN THIS SPECIFIC GAME. I am a bad pick for Pine GIVEN WHAT FACTORS ARE IN PLAY.
This is the heart and core. The ESSENCE. Of why to focus on what Pine DID and DIDN'T do, rather than what Pine COULD do.
Pine could pick me, because of my strength as a scum player.
Pine didn't pick me, because IN THIS SPECIFIC GAME, my weaknesses as a scum player would outweigh those strengths.

[mastina]

Imagine the amount of effort it took to put together that wall exactly 0% of which actually went into engaging me ever throughout this game

And why would I engage you when you're one of my strongest fucking scumreads and nothing you've done suggests otherwise?

Other than engaging stuff like this I guess. This I do for free regardless of read.

But ya know something about me.

I know that theoretically I should engage scumreads on why I am scumreading them. Because they might not actually be scum and if they aren't they won't appreciate that I ignored them.

I know I should do that but frankly.

Honestly.

Most of the time I just can't be fucked, it's hard enough engaging my townreads because it drains my mental, physical, and emotional batteries. Difficult to do for townreads, so I just really can't be fucked to do it for scumreads.
Not even when they are friends.

[mastina]

I strongly feel we should flip PB, Fire or, The Worst.
Krazy, Pops, and Gamma are tier 2 reads.

The only name in there I wouldn't lynch is Gamma.

[mastina]

Only real mechanics to talk about thus game are fruit right? There was a small chunk of fruit talk at EoD1 by Krazy but other wise don't see much mechanical talk if that's the only mechanic

What iso are you reading because it sure as fuck isn't Krazy's.

Krazy spent basically all of D1 speculating about Ankamius's hide target.
That is the fucking DEFINITION of focusing on mechanics rather than scumhunting.

[mastina]

*Spent all of D2 speculating about Ankamius's hide target

[mastina]

the source of your scumread me that game was that you obviously were reading exactly 0% of that game and giving 0% shits about that game and were basically just pulling reads out of your ass, which is why I felt okay basically ignoring you for the vast majority of the game

Oh really?

yeah once i realized smith isnt playing on ms for no reason krazy was my next guess and i had a vibe the absent partner was ali
mastina why were you so confident krazy was scum? i never really saw that read but he never did anything that locked him in as town, so

Because I thought Krazy was the head NOT posting.

amusing anecdote: i had 2 seperate ppl tell me (during D1 when only krazy was posting) that DJ was definitely Alisae and possiblyyyyy krazy

Hey that wasn't possibly past a certain point; I was sure it was him.

I was sure the WRONG HEAD was him but that's beside the point.

My, this scumread on you sure was from me reading 0% of the game and giving 0 shits in it and could in no fucking way have been me having thought that Elsa was you and that Elsa-you not posting was scum-indicative.

Why it's not like I said in the postgame precisely what I was thinking.

[mastina]

Because as town you actually think instead of writing whiny wallposts for the sake of writing whiny wallposts

You just fucking referenced Tatsuya's Anime UPick so you of all people know for a fact the two are not mutually fucking exclusive.

Yes I actually think--and have provably, demonstrably, done so.

Doesn't mean that when I have good fucking reason to write "whiny wallposts" I for some magical mystical reason won't.

It is not something I do every towngame.
But when I have damn fucking good reasons for ranting.
And this game I have INCREDIBLY FUCKING GOOD REASONS FOR RANTING.
If you say I won't you're an outright fucking liar because damn fucking straight when I have good fucking reason to write "whiny wallposts" fucking will.

That doesn't change the fact that I've "actually thought" this game and saying I haven't is a tall order considering it's quite self-evident I have.

[mastina]

Fuck it.
VOTE: Krazy

Oh did I revote?
I don't think I did.
VOTE: Krazy.

[mastina]

Pretending I haven't engaged players who have questioned my reads and explained my thought process

I've seen you throw a lot of tantrums but explaining your thought process? honestly not so much

Uh huh.
Sure haven't.
Not like I've made long wallpost readslists outlining my stances on players.
Not like I've made posts where I explained updated reads on players e.g. outlining how Firebringer became a scumread, explaining why Menalque is town, and similar.
Not like I've had posts where I've outlined why I went from scumreading Ank to townreading her.
Not like I've laid out my thought process behind why I bodyguarded Ankamius N1.
Not like I literally quoted my sent message to Jingle for my logic behind my N2 protect.
Not like I've described where any of those came from.

Yep, those sure don't exist, those examples of me laying out my thoughts start to finish sure never happened!

[mastina]

@mastina stop arguing with Krazy scum and help me sort my reads.

I did.
The only name on your list I wouldn't lynch is Gamma.
Of {Firebringer, Krazy, the worst, Pink Ball, popsofctown}, the strength of my scumreads goes Krazy > Firebringer > the worst > popsofctown > Pink Ball.

Do I think all five of them are the scumteam?

No, I think there's a very real chance that someone outside that list, e.g. PenguinPower, is scum.

I realize given that Pine's apparently limited in how many fruits he can give to scum that there's probably a maximum of two scum in {Firebringer, popsofctown, PenguinPower} because all of them have sealed bargains with Pine. Not the best logic to use I admit, but something which probably holds true all the same.

I'd still prioritize the lynches in the order I just mentioned tho.

[mastina]

So...Krazy did talk a lot about the hider target D2. How does D2 qualify as Krazy's whole game?

Because on D1 Krazy was focused on mechanical "Pine could have picked X for reason Y", which is fundamentally different from his town-self's approach in terms of taking stances on players, and on D2 Krazy was focused on the hider mechanics, and D3 has lasted for less than 48 hours.

So pretty much yeah most of the game Krazy's been talking mechanics not scumreads?

It's only been in the last 48 hours he's expressed much in the way of a read--an incredibly OMGUSy scumread on me.
Name the mystical game content before then that is not mechanics around the hider, or mechanics around "Pine could have picked X Y Z".

[mastina]

I should probably put everything together as a readslist.

Skygazer/Titus
Dannflor
Menalque
xofelf/Something_Smart
GreyIce
Katsuki
Formerfish

Gamma Emerald

MariaR

Iconeum



chennisden
PenguinPower

Pink Ball

popsofctown

the worst


Firebringer


Krazy

About this.

Nobody in the top tier is flipping scum.
I sincerely doubt Gamma is scum.
I'm incredibly doubtful albeit not to the same extent of Gamma that Maria would be scum.

Iconeum is mostly null but is a lean towards nulltown.

Then you get into scumread territory, where chennisden and PenguinPower are leanscum darkhorse candidates for being scum which given that my reads aren't going to be 100% accurate below them probably contains at least one scum.

Pink Ball is the weakest scumread proper because it wasn't until he took a read on me he absolute wouldn't take as town that I had any reason to think he might be scum.
The other scumreads I have talked about extensively; I've literally overnight doubled the size of my iso (no joke, I had exactly 29 posts D1 and exactly 29 posts D2 and now have 150 posts currently) and most of it has been talking about those four so read my content since daystart.
If you click that link, and hit the iso button off of it, it'll work flawlessly because believe it or not I have a single-page iso this game! Yes, really, it's that fucking short. And yet clearly people haven't read it even though they really should.

[mastina]

Pink Ball is the weakest scumread proper because it wasn't until he took a read on me he absolute wouldn't take as town that I had any reason to think he might be scum.

can you elaborate

like honestly
I kind of like that list?

Sure.
Pink Ball is a player who knows me extensively. Of the players in this game, the only ones rivaling or exceeding him in recent mastina experience are Ankamius, Krazy, maybe the worst, and maybe Firebringer.

Literally nobody else in the playerlist, past or present, has played with me as much as they have.
A few have played with me some. popsofctown. Dannflor. Menalque. Chickadee. To name a few. But none of them have played with me as extensively as those 3-5 players which Pink Ball is among.

He has been exposed, intimately, to exactly what my town meta is.
He has seen me describe in great length what my towngame is and what my scumgame is, when I was town and telling the truth.
He has fucking seen the way I operate power roles.
He has fucking seen the way I operate claims.
He has fucking seen the way I react to when I'm faced with bullshit.
He has fucking seen the way I react to being on the precipice of being lynched.
He knows that this is my towngame to a T.
He saw it in Anime UPick.
He on the dot PERFECTLY captured it in Undertale where in a brilliant display he managed to prove that he knew exactly how to generate an accurate read on me, the process behind pushing just the right buttons to get the right information that would spew me as town and it did precisely that.
He has even seen me in my most recent scumgame (albeit almost a year ago, MBoS the original being a game where he correctly pegged me as scum) and has a very fucking good reference point for what it is and what it isn't.

He fucking knows that this isn't it because he has every game, every reason, every piece of knowledge to know that this is 100% the absolute purest form of my towngame beyond any ability for scumastina to fake.

And yet.

In spite of having all of that knowledge.
He goes and posts this.
And also this.
My responses to those posts were 6319 and 6315 (respectively).
To put it simply.
Pink Ball went out of his way to discard all of his knowledge about me, to deliberately misrep my stances and push a narrative he has every fucking reason to know isn't true.

And I got the very distinct impression that unlike in Undertale where he 'scumread' me as a reaction test, as revenge, to get a rise out of me. Unlike that game.
In this game he is pushing that as if it were actually legitimate when he has every fucking reason and basis to know it isn't.

[mastina]

Mastina's favorite thing to do as scum is to make lists that look good.

Not even remotely close.
I make lists which look good as scum, sure, but that's not a talent of my scumplay; readslists are the best tool I have at communicating my thought process regardless of my alignment. The difference between scum readslists which look good and town readslists which are good is what they accomplish. They are fundamentally, inherently, used differently. They have some uses which overlap regardless of alignment; to get a grasp on the game. But their exact implementation carries with it an alignment and an agenda--yes, town readlists have agendas too even though when we normally think agendas we think of scum. The difference is that the town agenda is of a whole different level.

I refuse to believe town mastina ever writes 6364. She knows Ank too well to think Ank ever fucking investigates me night 1. Like yeah, mastina being wrong on me is not new, but mastina spreading disinformation about Ank is just no.

I chose my words carefully. You know what I said?

A I think the fact that we're ignoring her most likely check is nonsense.

What if I said that if I were to actually give a guess as to who she hid behind my guess would be you?

I didn't say Ankamius hid behind you. I said that if I were to give a guess my guess would be you. There is a key difference between the former, what you said I said, and the latter, what I actually said.

The difference isn't semantics; it's critical and vital. The latter is very specifically not disinformation about Ank least of all because the idea of Ank hiding behind you is certainly far more plausible than the idea of Ank hiding behind me. But the real kicker is I've made my stance abundantly clear on the subject: I can't tell who Ank hid behind nor will I pretend I am able to. So what I said was basically "I can't tell who Ank hid behind, I don't know who Ank hid behind, I don't really want to guess who Ank hid behind but if forced to make a guess you're my best bet" more or less. You being my best bet, when I specifically don't want to place a bet, isn't exactly hard-selling "Ank hid behind Krazy", now, is it?

[mastina]

@mastina, Krazy
What are your reads on kat?

Skygazer/Titus
Dannflor
Menalque
xofelf/Something_Smart
GreyIce

Katsuki

Formerfish

Nobody in the top tier is flipping scum.

[mastina]

mastina basically started this game saying I'm an unlikely pick for Pine:

^So my thoughts on Krazy can be summed up as: If Pine picked Krazy to be scum, it would be a dick move. Pine would know from experience that Krazy is burned out from playing scum and wouldn't have much fun in the role. Pine would know that while Krazy is an amazing town player, he's only so-so as a scum player.

and then has spent the entire rest of the game arguing she's a terrible pick for pine for [reasons] and that somehow, after Vengeful Ghosts, there's a chance in fucking hell Pine picks me

Sorry but your quote saying you're an unlikely pick for Pine is saying something else entirely.

It being a dick move.
And you not having fun.
Doesn't make you an unlikely pick.
Nothing I said in there says as much or implies as much.
And in fact if you continue the quote it explains why it's the fucking opposite:

But the reason I think that Pine could pick Krazy in spite of it being a dick move is a combination of:
1: Pine could feel that, with his involvement in the scum PT, he could revitalize Krazy's scumplay. He could see it as a challenge, to try and make Krazy have fun in a role he currently abhors.
2:

Pine could value Krazy as a player to help balance and round out his scumteam composition.

3: Pine could pick Krazy to deny the town access to one of its better scumhunters, which is especially true if Pine was denied the chance to grab Ankamius. (You don't want Ankamius and Krazy to be able to work together.)
4:

Krazy is not an obvious choice to pick, which means that Pine could get away with it without anybody really thinking about it.

Probably more reasons that I am forgetting about.

So there's a case to be made both ways.

I can see Pine thinking Krazy's a good pick

; I can see Pine not picking Krazy. Heck, I can even see Jingle denying Pine the chance to pick Krazy albeit not as likely as with Ank.

So why is Krazy so low?

Because my stance on him thusfar this game can be summed up as such: I haven't seen anything which makes me particularly townread him, nor have I seen anything which makes me particularly scumread him.

The last time I had that stance on him...he was scum.

So I think that it's more likely that he's scum.

[mastina]

It's not that I am a bad pick for Pine in general.

It's that IN THIS SPECIFIC GAME. I am a bad pick for Pine GIVEN WHAT FACTORS ARE IN PLAY.
This is the heart and core. The ESSENCE. Of why to focus on what Pine DID and DIDN'T do, rather than what Pine COULD do.
Pine could pick me, because of my strength as a scum player.
Pine didn't pick me, because IN THIS SPECIFIC GAME, my weaknesses as a scum player would outweigh those strengths.

Like mastina thinks that this means Pine doesn't pick her, but somehow she's willing to put in the mental fucking gymnastics necessary for Pine to pick me after the game where I pretty much exclusively led mislynches?

Yes. Because you are literally my fucking inverse.
In normal circumstances, I might be a good pick to be a scum player.
IN THIS SPECIFIC GAME, my weaknesses as a scum player make me a poor pick.
In normal circumstances, you might be a poor pick to be a scum player.
IN THIS SPECIFIC GAME, you are a godly good pick to be a scum player.

Nice try tho.

[mastina]

The difference isn't semantics; it's critical and vital.

Uh huh.
Yeah.
Sure Krazy.
You fucking know me and you're pretending that I don't make a big fucking deal out of semantics, you're fucking pretending that exact wording isn't something I see as a big fucking deal.
In spite of knowing those are really fucking huge things to me.
Exact words are important.

[mastina]

@mastina, I meant more like, could you explain your Kats read?

Sure.

Katsuki
^Pine picked Katsuki as a replacement in the first iteration of this game for damn good reason. Katsuki's a skilled scum player, who also has a knack for pulling impressive townplays if left unchecked, so picking Katsuki is a good denial pick. That having been said, while I think Katsuki's play here could be scum, I know that Katsuki's alignment should become more obvious as the game progresses and right now I'm not sure it's scum.

IF LLD is scum (her attempted self hammer makes that look likely, but it's not definitive), both GreyIce and Katsuki become strong townreads. If lld flips town, they remain where they are.

Basically it comes down to a simple fact; for the same reason I believe GreyICE is town, I believe Katsuki is town--yes, I do think that Katsuki's D1 push on LLD doesn't come from a scum Katsuki. No, I don't think Katsuki's relative lack of content since then diminishes that read.

Town players have an awfully nasty habit.

Like, 90% of town players do this.

They'll establish a good read on a player, but then when the player they have that good read on falls out of focus, they forget why they townread them; they forget the good reasons that the player was town; they have their read deteriorate. Now this can be a good thing because scum can get locked as town early and then be exposed as scum later--but when that happens, it's usually because you look at their earlier content and realize it wasn't actually town, not because you look at their current content and think it's scum.

Basically, if the townread deteriorates, what you need to do is look at the original reasoning to see if it still holds true--and when it comes to Katsuki, I absolutely believe that it does. This was Katsuki's last game where I saw him as scum.
This was Katsuki's last game where I saw him as town.
In the scumgame, Katsuki did nothing; in the towngame, Katsuki scumhunted and was engaged heavily.
Now look at Katsuki's iso this game.
Even post-LLD lynch, Katsuki is not doing nothing. Katsuki scumhunts and there is engagement.

Katsuki's push on LLD is something I don't think comes from scum distancing; Katsuki's play here far more closely resembles his towngame than his scumgame.

I get the read deteriorating because you haven't seen Katsuki as much.
But if you take a look at why the townread was there in the first place...it absolutely still holds true.

[mastina]

Alisae I don't know what to say but if you choke on Krazy here you're making a mistake.

[mastina]

like that post where he comments about mena behind who ank hid behind

Alisae.
That. is. mechanics.
That isn't scumhunting.
That. is. mechanics.
The realm where Krazy is comfortable just hanging around and about as scum.

I don’t think his push on mastina is bad, I think its alright?

It is fucking bad. You know why it's fucking bad?
Because Krazy here is unrivaled in experience with me aside from Ankamius and he fucking knows that this is my towngame.
Fuck, he even said as much earlier in the game.
He only started pushing me as scum when I amped up the pressure on his slot--it's a defensive OMGUS.

Menalque can remember my explanation on the subject. Krazy is doing this game what Menalque did in I Don't Remember The Name of This Game:

wanna clarify for me why omgus is a scumtell, mastina?

It's not always a scumtell. There are situations where town can, via burden of proficiency, identify scum that are voting them, knowing that the player voting them SHOULD be town.

Most situations are where the player thinks it should be the above, but are just mistaken, overestimating their townness and/or the competency of the player that they are omgusing.

However. There are cases where OMGUS, instead of coming from town, comes from scum. And these are the cases where a player shows no scumread of a player, or if anything show signs of defending that player, but when that player scumreads them and presents decent reasoning, the scum player realizes that they need to fight back. Arguing that they are town is usually not a good option, so instead, their stance shifts into scumreading the player that they previously were not.

These are cases where the aim of the scum player is not to lynch the player in question, but rather discredit them. Failing that, to convince players that the fight is TvT (well, close enough in this case).

That is the basic difference between town omgus and scum omgus. The aim of town omgus is to lynch the player that they are omgusing on the basis of believing (quite often mistakenly) that the push on them came from scum.

The aim of scum omgus is to save the life of the scum player.

This is a scum OMGUS done defensively.
Krazy was townreading me.
My scumread on him is nothing new.
I've scumread him the whole fucking game, and called him lockscum since his scumclaim at the end of D1.
The only thing which has changed is that I amped up my pressure on my scumread on him.
Krazy can't defend himself by calling himself town.
So what he does is bullshit a scumread on me, in the hopes of discrediting me and/or convincing players the fight is TvT.

[mastina]

his play around LLD was solid wrt like blatant disregard for her continued existence/good wagon position/iirc he like told people to vote her and actually drew attention to her exploding scumfuckery

Krazy's play around LLD was what moved him from being a scumread to being lockscum.

Speaking of:

The last time I had that stance on him...he was scum.

wasn't that also your reasoning in EICN when I basically didn't play the first fifty pages and then you didn't realize which head I was after that?

Oh hey look. Back here Krazy said that in EICN I didn't realize which head he was.

Why did his narrative recently change on that subject to saying that in EICN I wasn't playing the game at all and was lazily scumreading him?

Hmm, is bargaining gated by hammer?
Whatever, I didn't hammer but I'm still curious how all this works

Bargain Watcher Fruit

Is this void since hammer or is the bargaining irrespective of dayphases? It seems like you make the actual choices in twilight?

This was one of the first posts which moved Krazy from a scumread to lockscum. The "I'm curious how this works" is obvious bullshit.

It was also where I noticed Krazy's overly strong focus on mechanics.

[mastina]

it's true in like a super rudimentary way but it's very clearly intended to illustrate a point in the context of this game

I mean.
Yes?
I illustrate points in the context of the game I am playing and they are true in a rudimentary way; I am fond of oversimplifications for explanations because they take less effort to do, can be described more aptly and succinctly, and frankly are just more likely to be listened to--even if people don't immediately agree, them being interested off of the logic I gave can, if necessary, segue into a more detailed breakdown of the subject when I have the time, effort, and mood capacity to do so.

[Jingle]

Misrep my ass, mastina, you're being hypocritical with your reads because you "know your alignment".

There is no hypocrisy involved in fucking knowing that the players who have seen my fucking play should have EVERY fucking reason to know DAMN good and well that this is my towngame through and through.

I have never had a scumgame even remotely close to this one in any way shape or form.

I have had literally half a dozen if not a dozen towngames which have been this way.

Yes, it is true.

"scumastina can do anything, therefore nothing she does is town".

Yes, it is true.

"scumastina likes to do new things so this could be the first time she's done it as scum".

I can't deny those because they are on a fundamental level true--scumastina has an incredibly wide scum rage and because of my tendency to mimic my towngame as scum, anything I've done as town I can theoretically do as scum.

Theoretically.

But at some point, a combination of occam's razor and pure and simple sheer probability comes into play.
Yes, any play is possible to be scumastina, so it's possible that this is a first time level performance from scumastina.
Possible.
But if you look at what is actually probable.
Then any player who has played with me in the last fucking YEAR would know that this is my fucking towngame.

Because just because scumastina can theoretically do something doesn't mean she actually will, or even could.
The way my mind is wired as scum means that there are some things which, while I could theoretically do them as scum, in actuality, in practice, I can't actually fucking do them because the thought to do them never fucking occurs. As scum I have default patterns. I have default habits. I have default tendencies. And even when I deliberately think, even when I deliberately modify them, even when I deliberately go out of my way to change these habits.

They are small changes.

I can change one aspect of my scumgame to resemble my towngame.
I can't fucking change EVERY fucking aspect of my scumgame to match my towngame.
And this is every fucking aspect of my towngame.
I can link to many of my recent towngames where I have played like I have in this game.
You'll never find a scumgame where I've played like I have in this game because they don't fucking exist. They COULD in theory exist, this COULD, in theory, be the first. But in actual fucking practice no it fucking can't because while I am a good scum player I am not that fucking much of a master where I can pull off this level of performance.

My thoughts, my tone, my reads, my reasons, what I've done, what I've posted, my emotions, my feelings, my stances, my investment, my pushes, my role usage, my role claim, my approach. These are things which I can individually replicate but this isn't one individual replication. This is the whole fucking packaged deal.

And everyone who has played with me fucking KNOWS it.

So yes.

I have damn fucking good basis for scumreading the players who have played with me who should fucking know this is my towngame.

The way you're dealing with the duck reminds me of that schadd's game where we mislynched him om D1 because of you.

Oh let's look at my content from that game, shall we? Let's compare, because this is utterly bullshit false as fuck because there is NO fucking way you think my push in this game...

...Looks

Spoiler: like this:

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

town!
VOTE: nibbui <3 <3 <3

You wish!
VOTE: the worst.
Scum!

A cheeky post where I literally called myself scum.

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

Now excuse me, let me try to mislynch town huh
VOTE: Mastina

There is no try, only do, or do not.

oooooooo mystery!!!!
VOTE: nibbui

Town

Glad to see you spew this as I fully agree.

Since you've been so cooperative, I think I'll give you my readslist!

northsidegal
Pink Ball
Nibbui
InfiniteSoda
sheepsaysmeep
skitter30
podoboq
the worst

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

Want to explain that TW scum read or not for now? Also, ain't you a bit too quick to call NSG town?

I can do both of these at the same time!
northsidegal is, 100% of the time, always town.
the worst is, 100% of the time, always scum.

Never doubt it.

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

Ok Mastina you're beginning to sound like scum!Mastina. Why is TW always 100% scum here?

If I cared about how I looked, I might put in the effort to give you a rundown here, but I honestly don't.

When I feel like telling you why the worst is scum, I will tell you.

It just doesn't feel like the right time.

I

can

force an explanation when it doesn't feel like the right time.
I vastly prefer not to.

If you can't accept that, then vote me, sure, but it'll change nothing; I'm not backing down from this. I'll explain when I feel like it, not when others dictate it. And right now I feel like being semiserious rather than fully serious, so.

This is a great example demonstrating the difference between my approach as town and my approach as scum. Here in that game there was bravado. False bravado. "I don't care how I look". Here in this game yes I absofuckinglutely do fucking care.

The way I explained my lack of explanation is different as well.

In that game, I was being lazy because I didn't want to put in the effort to explain a read I knew wasn't right.
In this game, I've been lazy because I didn't want to go into the great time and effort required...but in spite of that, I still gave content, still gave feedback, in spite of not wanting to, because it's a read that I think could actually be fucking right. That game where I was scum I gave no explanation; this game I gave partial explanation even though I have said and it's true that there's more to it than what I've explained.

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

mastina do you have any past v games/can you link me to them if you do where you act in this way like "idc what you think im going to blatantly not answer your question" or smtg like that

Sure do, but frankly I play so many games that I honestly just...don't remember what happened in which games for the most part pretty much. If I spent time to :effort: in this I could probably track down at least ten such links. But it would in fact be effort.

Not helping is that pretty much the only times I've been town have been either replacements or on alts (actually even the alts are mostly replacements), so this is literally the first game where I've been town from the start in over a year. Maybe even MORE than over a year. (Also not helping? There is absolutely nothing that scumastina

can't

do. There are things she won't do, but overall, HUGE number of past games + LARGE number of scumgames--especially recently-- = most of what you'd see is pretty worthless.)

I just feel like playing this way, because it's just.

Kinda loose. And I like it.

This was all but a scumclaim admitting "yeah I'm scum this game because I need to be doing this in order to have any semblance of fun in the game because I wouldn't be having fun if I were playing seriously".

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

Also Mastina I know you love to be somewhat scummy when you are town in order to help you in your future scum games but if you're town here you might be overdoing it a bit

You apparently have a very off impression of my playstyle if you think that is even

remotely

what I do in games.

My scumgame is strong enough on its own merit that my towngame need not be weakened in order for me to stand strong as a scum player. I am remarkably competent as scum.

It's the other way around in fact--I copy my scumgame as town, not to weaken my towngame and strengthen my scumgame. But rather. To strengthen my towngame.

You

just

saw me gamethrow by tunneling town and rapid-voting them in lylo and refusing to unvote when given the opportunity. That was in a game where I said I was not very invested.

But you're the one who literally invited me to play in this game--I am invested here. I

am

taking this game seriously.
Just...in my way.

This is an example of me defending myself when I am scum.

You cannot fucking say that the example of me defending myself in that game is anything even remotely fucking similar to how I've defended myself this game.

That goes back to a very simple fundamental.
scumastina can't get mad about correct scumreads on her because she knows they are correct. How can I be mad at someone who has me correctly pegged?
And because I can't fake anything. Can't fake anger. Can't fake claims. Can't fake at all. That means I can't be mad at someone who is dead on the money. I can still try to mislead them. Tell them that what they think is true is mistaken, even when what they think is true is in fact true. I can take advantage of anything which they are legitimately mistaken about. When they are legitimately mistaken about something it gives me an edge to be honest and I can manipulate that to help alleviate the pressure on me.

But you can't fucking say that's what I've done this game for good fucking reason.

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

I mean, you could actually just say "I don't feel like explaining right now" (I even asked "or you wouldn't like to explain right now?") but you insist on saying that you "don't care about how you look" and "Other don't dictate when I explain things" what's are some very extra lines here. Don't think it's outside of what town!Mastina can say (and I don't have a good feel on your meta anyway) but something to mull over on I guess.

Oh I could say something like that, but that would be succinct of me.

I am many things; succinct is never among them. (Well. Except for two games where I deliberately self-imposed it as a challenge. Hilariously? I got dayvigged both games D1. ) I will explain things in my own way, taking as many words as I deem necessary to get the right message across. It might help your understanding of me for you to know that I am autistic; I don't process information in a normal way.

My brain is literally hardwired so that the simple solution/words people use, aren't what I know. I know the long way. I know numerous different things, not helped by crossing the streams. I've learned to harness this power, to make the most of it, accept it as a part of me, utilize its advantages, but sorry to disappoint you if you were expecting me to be a beacon of coolness.

i feel like you're purposefully not answering questions or trying to help people understand what you're thinking

Of course I'm not answering questions.

If I felt like answering questions, I would be answering questions.

If I wanted people to understand what I was thinking, I would make effort to make them understand what I am thinking.

But I don't want to make that effort, for a specific reason.

This is actually the most serious thing I've said.
I've been messing around a lot, I've been just talking, having some fun, being casual, while dropping hints, while giving some semblance of an idea of what I mean, but to be dead serious and drop the jokiness altogether.
I'm wanting people to do a few particular things, mostly related (I almost said "one particular thing" before realizing it's not actually just one), but which take time and this strategy to go about with.

I mean half the reason I didn't want people to understand what I was thinking was that I was scum thinking the town had the game won.

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

i do want to know why she's so certain you're scum tho because i'm not feeling it rn

I'm looking for Nibbui's response to this btw because Nibbui should have a mindset on it.

I think Mastina saying "TW is scum, 100% of the time here" is more alignment indicative than her whole attitude about explaining it or not tbh.

You are right!
That is one of the most alignment indicative things I have said.
You are also wrong!
You seemed to be reading my statement that "the worst is scum, 100% of the time" as an indicator of confidence--

it wasn't

.

You have a really big hint now what I'm getting at now, yes?

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

northsidegal is, 100% of the time, always town.
the worst is, 100% of the time, always scum.

What I am specifically saying is that you need to reread this and think of it from a different perspective.
This was not a statement that northsidegal is 100% town this game and that the worst is 100% scum this game.

I may get my words messed up when I'm not particularly fluent (like right now, kinda not-lucid), but by and large? Exact words are a favorite of mine; I mean exactly what I say.

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

If you're actually serious though I'll trust you have something good on mind if you're town.

Oh I do, trust me.
Right now my mind is working at a million miles an hour, and I have a feeling of "I got this".

The problem is that by the time I come to explain that, it'll have crashed and burned and I'll be sifting through the wreckage going, "I KNOW I had this brilliant strategy/plan/thought, but...I can't remember it, dammit!" leading to you being underwhelmed.

That incidentally is also a succinct demonstration of an answer for why I copy my scumgame; no need to wait until postgame for me to tell you that's what I mean--my scumgame has scum PTs so I can document and record the important stuff whereas when town I don't, even though I could use one right now.

Basically, yes, I do have something good on my mind right now, but I can't figure out a way to explain it right now without ruining it, and I'm terrified that by the time I can, I'll have lost it.

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

alignment talk aside I like Mastina's surreal posts. It's kind of unique really, I can't remember having seen anyone have a similar playstyle and I find her walls entertaining.

I've been practicing this for ten years; I've refined it to an art.

I actually advised Gamma on some tips recently which make use of what I've more or less mastered.

If you can call verbosity something that's a skill, at least. (Basically, there's tricks to wordflow. I make heavy use of alliteration and rhymes, but not just "one word starts with c, another word also starts with c"; it can be different ones altogether which just are similar. For instance, the syllable of 'one' is similar to the syllable of 'which' in mouthing, so the effect is there. I've done it for so long that it's become subconscious. Word vomit it may be, but it's

smartly done

word vomit. Most of the time. )

wait is it just a pun? also are you perhaps cutely-badmouthing tw in a cute way? and it all being a reaction test?

At least one of these is on the right track!

I think i c wat u did thar mastina but I'll be holding my silence

I appreciate the sentiment, but do tell within like. 48 hours or so.

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

Alright, am back. I think I'm calm enough to do this without ranting (

especially since there's nothing in this game to my knowledge that'd tick me off

), but alas. I regret to inform you that the whimsical feeling of messing around isn't with me right now--I actually feel like being completely serious right now, so gimme a sec, I'll be explaining what I was doing and then catch up on all the pages I've yet to read (which I think is like...30. ).

Bolded highlighted for good fucking reason.

You know WHY there wouldn't be anything that'd tick me off?

Because I was scum being correctly scumread for the right reasons and I can't be ticked off at being scumread correctly.

That post was all but a scumclaim as a result.

This fucking game I have EVERY fucking reason to be ticked off.

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

northsidegal
Pink Ball
Nibbui
InfiniteSoda
sheepsaysmeep
skitter30
podoboq
the worst

This was in fact a serious readslist, for a start--at the time that it was posted, I had read up to that point but pretty much everything past the first page, my eyes had glossed over, not really properly processing so much as just scanning, reading, and that was that. But I still had an

awareness

of all 113 prior posts. Yet this was still made in the context of, "from the first page, pretty much, supported loosely by the following".

northsidegal is, 100% of the time, always town. the worst is, 100% of the time, always scum.

Never doubt it.

When people quoted this, they seemed to forget the most important part of the quote--the bolded. The bolded phrase here, "never doubt it". Is never something said seriously--it's a deadpan snark. I was referring specifically to how, 100% of the time, no matter how much you may think she's scum, northsidegal is pretty much always 100% of the time actually town. With an undertone of how even when she is scum, she is

still

town.

It then figures that the same was true of the worst--I was referring to how, disproportionately, the worst draws scum role PMs time and time again, and is almost always the last anti-town that the town is suspicious of. Yet when he is town, people tend to still think he is scum, especially me, in part due to paranoia of knowing just how good his scumgame can be. So it can be said that, no matter how much you may think he's town, he's scum, 100% of the time, even if his role PM says otherwise.

...But

in spite of that

.

My vote was placed on the worst--if this were 100% a joke read, I'd not have done that, and kept it there.

town!
VOTE: nibbui <3 <3 <3

You wish!
VOTE: the worst.
Scum!

My readslist, as I mentioned, was based primarily on the first page, albeit subsidized partially by the later pages. (You were meant to think it was entirely from the first page, and I'm surprised nobody made that callout--I was quoting something from the first page when I made the readslist and I

usually

read chronologically, so that means that USUALLY I am quoting as far as I've read. So I was EXPECTING someone to think I was on the first page, even though in the case of this game, I wasn't. But I digress. MY POINT WAS...)

The reason for these reads, if you look at it, is pretty self-evident:

first! hello all!

@mod: regular vla on fridays/saturdays

VOTE: nibbui

This was an entirely clinical RVS entrance--it is constructed, rather than organic. There was an overall lack of whimsy to it, and no real lighthearted touch. However, skitter is a more logical-type player, so while I wasn't fond of it, I recognized that because of who made the post, it wasn't as scum-indicative as I'd otherwise be inclined to think. This still earned skitter a low place on my readslist, below the nulline, but only just.

15 days because of Assorted Holiday

Thanks for that. Probably not gonna be here until Wednesday. As such, not gonna RVS. Happy holidays peeps. See you in a few days.

This felt worse than skitter's entrance because it was even more clinical, and yet lacked the personality justification. podoboq is not a player I'd associate with that more "constructed" style of play when town, and would be someone I'd actually describe as a northsidegal-type of inquisitive: pushing forward, but lighthearted when doing so. This just felt entirely too serious, and he felt the need to correct a typo by making a follow-through post. It showed that he was paying close enough attention to realize he made a mistake, and yet, I'm meant to believe he wasn't paying close enough attention to form any sort of RVS? That he wouldn't be around for a couple of days was no excuse; you can always remove an RVS vote when you get back if need be.

You shouldn't suddenly wagon me like that because I almost thought someone already had a Night 0 guilty on me! Please don't scare me like that, I get very tense as scum even for silly reasons.
Now excuse me, let me try to mislynch town huh

*I* might be this cheeky as a scumfuck, but Nibbui doesn't strike me as the type. This felt incredibly lighthearted and whimsical, to the point of being incredibly town. I felt that this was an incredibly natural way to respond to the page 1 pressure. A casual joke, one which felt entirely appropriate for the phase of the game at the time.

The analysis followthrough in 14 is more or less the type I'd expect from Nibbui as well. It is precisely the strength I'd expect, it is precisely the method I'd expect, it is just as hard as I'd expect, just as light as I'd expect, just as casual as I'd expect. Entirely fluent, organic, natural analysis of the situation at hand, but not putting too much stock in it. I also loved this banter:

Pink Ball I know we planned for you to claim cop and have a guilty on me in the scum chat but it leave it to later really
maybe in day 2 or something

SPEAKING OF PINK BALL THO:

You shouldn't suddenly wagon me like that because I almost thought someone already had a Night 0 guilty on me!

I have a Night 0 guilty on this guy

This

instantly

made me think town. I didn't need to see the full interaction to make the conclusion; this alone was enough. That type of casual lighthearted fun was immensely town, but when paired with the actual vote, all the better--and there were in fact good reasons to vote the worst!

town!
VOTE: nibbui <3 <3 <3

I quoted this post because the worst's focus on being town felt overly forced, and his vote on Nibbui felt like it was uncreative and unoriginal. It was just kinda...there. 10 was also forced, being a second-rate imitation of my patented town town? scum? scum style of introductory reads. 13 felt like fluff that was meant to look like the worst was doing something when he wasn't, messing around under the illusion of content. I didn't think the worst would be scum with skitter due to 22, but I did think that interaction painted the worst as more likely to be scum and Nibbui as a beacon of township (especially in tandem with 21). 24 was also ridiculously forced as well; it was blatantly obvious that it was forcing scumminess to be there where there was none to be found, and yet I detected absolutely no hint of self-awareness about this: no glint of being whimsical about it, that he knew he was BSing.

oooooooo mystery!!!!
VOTE: nibbui

northsidegal's entrance

screamed

town. She was incredibly whimsical, unafraid to be the third vote on a wagon, and seemed like she was, genuinely, having a good time.

So that was the bulk of where I was coming from, though I still have more to address.

This is clinical, precise scumastina at work. This is scumastina having played a methodical, artificial, designed, game through and through.
And it continues.
Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

i do want to know why she's so certain you're scum tho because i'm not feeling it rn

I'm looking for Nibbui's response to this btw because Nibbui should have a mindset on it.

I think Mastina saying "TW is scum, 100% of the time here" is more alignment indicative than her whole attitude about explaining it or not tbh.

You are right!
That is one of the most alignment indicative things I have said.
You are also wrong!
You seemed to be reading my statement that "the worst is scum, 100% of the time" as an indicator of confidence--

it wasn't

.
You have a really big hint now what I'm getting at now, yes?

So given what I just explained, you'll have a better idea of where this was coming from, especially when paired with:

northsidegal is, 100% of the time, always town. the worst is, 100% of the time, always scum.

What I am specifically saying is that you need to reread this and think of it from a different perspective. This was not a statement that northsidegal is 100% town this game and that the worst is 100% scum this game.
Exact words are a favorite of mine; I mean exactly what I say.

(I did

not

say "100% town

this game

". I said "100% town", without specifying this game--thus, it was not a statement specific to this game.)

wait is it just a pun? also are you perhaps cutely-badmouthing tw in a cute way? and it all being a reaction test?

At least one of these is on the right track!

You

just

saw me gamethrow by tunneling town and rapid-voting them in lylo and refusing to unvote when given the opportunity. That was in a game where I said I was not very invested.
But you're the one who literally invited me to play in this game--I am invested here. I

am

taking this game seriously.
Just...in my way.

^This one in particular. The game in question is Open 741: Red Flag, a game the worst and northsidegal also would share familiarity with.
Fun fact about that game is that I replaced into the worst's slot, thinking it was a scum slot.
But what I am particularly getting at is, in the game in question, I explained in great length my mindset on my approach to scumreads:

are these unusually confident reads for you, or do you always do this?

Complicated, not a yes-or-no question, and the only way to address it is to talk about non-game stuff. In short, answer's irrelevant to the game,

...But if you insist on having an answer......

The answer is both yes, and no.
I wrote an article explaining half of the concept, and never finished my article explaining the other half.
The article I wrote explaining one half of this is Possibilities versus Probabilities.

In there, I basically explain how always, I am at war with myself.
At every single second.
I am imagining every single possible possibility.
You may think that's not possible; there's a ton of possibilities. With 4/10 players as scum, there are...how many unique combos? Is it as simple as 400? But no matter what the exact number, there's a lot.

So I couldn't possibly calculate them all, every second, right?

Except I do, and I do it even when not at the keyboard.
At work.
When eating.
When taking a shower.
At all times I think of the game, I am considering every single possible outcome.
For instance, at the most extreme: "What if every single one of my townreads were in fact the scumteam?"

I run through these, every second.
With every piece of new information, I run through them again. And again. And again.

Paranoia is crippling.
Doubt is overwhelming.
I never know what my reads are.
I can never truly be certain of them, because every time I feel good, suddenly, a new thought crops up and makes me think I could be wrong again.

Thus, the concept of probabilities.

I had to install a filter to function in games. Even if the correct combination is deemed a possibility rather than probability and thus tossed out, it was inherently a necessary move for me to be able to be of

any

use in a game. I weigh the scenarios, and put active thought into sorting them, off of what I know.

Some become less likely than others; others become more likely.

And while I can rarely if ever narrow in on the exact correct one, I can get closer to the correct one. Just by sifting through with the filter, discarding the ones which look unlikely and violate occam's razor, and accepting the ones which are simpler, make more sense, fit the facts better, and overall just "feel" like they're the case.

That is the balance of possibilities, and probabilities; the probabilities are the town player's friend, and the possibilities are the enemy.

But there's a second half to that, the unpublished result of this philosophy.

I have to have a way to both advance the gamestate, and yet be able to step back and reevaluate when necessary.

This is what I refer to as the "Theory of Pushing", in my notes, with the basic philosophy of...

"I need to push, and push HARD".

I push the probabilities I see, and push them hard. I keep pushing them, and pushing them--until I am no longer certain they are probabilities, until I think that instead of a probability, they are just a possibility. (Okay, small break from my ramble for a game note.)

This is game-relevant, because this is in the process of happening with RC; it hasn't fully shifted yet, but it's at the point where I am certainly uncertain of it being a probability at the very least.

...But back to being non-game-relevant...
This leads to the perception that I am arrogant, or at the very least, overconfident. I seemingly get confirmation bias, apparently--allegedly--never reevaluating, keeping my push going on the same targets.

But I am doing so for a very good reason. Because I am always, at every turn. Looking to be proven wrong. At every turn, I am reevaluating. And while most of the time, I reevaluate and go, "You know...I still feel the same way I did before.", sometimes, I really

do

shift my opinion.

I push, and push, and state things as absolutes even if they are not, because when I am doing so, I am advancing the gamestate, in my own unique way. The interactions I generate can be just as useful if not more, than my original push. Seeing how people react to my push can be just as valuable a thing as seeing how my target responds to the push.

It's altogether a way of trying to make the most out of uncertainty and doubt, of crippling bipolar shifts between extremes of doubt and certainty.

So yes, I am always confident, but no; I am never actually confident.
Yet the two don't contradict.

In the case of this game, I would say the best answer I have to give you is thus:
I am as sure as I can be,

given who I am

, that Gamma Emerald and AnonymousGhost are scum.
You won't get better than that in any game I ever play in.

I got the impression Nibbui had read that post--because Nibbui's invitation for me to play this game implied having been impressed with my process and wanting to see more.

This is also why I wanted the worst to explain--if he did know where I was coming from, he'd have been able to explain this; if he was just bullshitting, then he'd be wildly off-base.

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

And to properly go through the stuff that I skipped:

i've never played with her

Not so. We've played together on multiple occasions. Just because you don't remember it doesn't mean they didn't happen. I'd go search for them but they may involve alts so I'll just leave it as a generic "I have in fact played with you".

Also.

I read basically every Normal game, which I know you've played some of.

And I am involved in the moderation of some other games (mostly large themes), so I see you there, too.

You're not exactly someone I know intimately to soulreading levels, but you're far from someone I have no familiarity with. With the exception of Pink Ball, I've got extensive experience with every single player in this game. (Even if they don't realize it.)

mastina and I have played together 2? times I think (not discussing alts etc. etc.)

Pretending experience on alts doesn't count does you no favors. It absolutely does--and so, too, does my experience in games where I am not a player but am indirectly involved. (For instance, the aforementioned every-Normal-ever and many theme games.)

I mean, yeah, I play differently on alts than I do my main, and I do appreciate them not being outed--but pretending the experience doesn't exist is fallacious because the experience still forms a part of

my

view on players.

his confidence in thread and lamist ish attitude/how much he's engaging with me is really prominent in all his v games and it feels exactly like this

While my read on sheep is thoroughly meh, this meta is accurate in my experience. The way Nibbui is going around this game is precisely what I'd expect of him as town, albeit with the caveat that I don't actually have any knowledge that I can recollect of Nibbui's scum meta, so I can only speak for half the picture. (In other words, the meta read's weakened by me not being able to properly distinguish between playstyle tells and towntells, but is still matching the town games to a T, if that makes sense.)

Just getting a quick vote in during my 5-minute internet access at the public library
VOTE: Mastina

This was an utter wash as far as entrances go. It was fairly difficult for me to get a read on it. Him and sheep are, obviously, the strong points of null. sheep, due to having a complete mind numb on read (I read sheep's posts and utterly glossed over them, unable to really process them with an alignment in mind); him, due to this just being...there. It's not really something I'd say is scum, but it's also not something which screams town.

/lazyposting
{nsg}
{tw, sheep}
{skitter}
{everyone else}
{nibbui}

This readslist was exactly what she said it was: lazy. It's a pretty terrible readslist, but alignment-wise my thought on it was that it was completely and entirely, 100%, not alignment indicative either way. Given my prior townread on nsg tho, it wasn't really worth bringing up.

When I saw her interact with Nibbui more, I thought it was a fairly town-town interaction on both sides, tho--but because both were already topping my townreads

anyway

, I didn't really feel like emphasizing the fact.

When I say someone is town, I tend not to put special emphasis on them being town past that point--the sole exception to this is if the player I am calling town is at risk of being lynched. If they are close to being lynched, then, obviously, I need to emphasize why they are town to dissuade that outcome, but other than that, my feeling is mostly a "said once, then done". I said nsg and Nibbui were town, I was done.
(Scumreads, on the other hand--keep pushing them until they no longer are.)

Along the same lines:

Oops spoilers, I should've used the spoiler tag for that, sorry

Pink Ball has been a townread and this line of posting only strengthened it further.

This is the lucidity I was lookin for last night
Did we roll t/t again? <3

If I had been playing seriously at the time I read this, I may have been able to explain why this felt scum, because I remember rather clearly being icked out by this, but I can't remember why--the feeling is still there, tho. It feels

wrong

.

I'm not really in the mood to talk thru my view on rvs but I feel Nibbui is a little lukewarm on pg3
it's towny tho and not bad just..ok

This one, too.

^^^^ the already gives off the connotation that a guilty wouldn't be the wrong result, that you kinda think that there's a possibility that this may happen in the future
i'm aware that i'm reading into connotations but that's the vibe that it gave off to me and i'm trying to articulate what exactly was bothering me about it

wolves (Nibbui's scumstyle being a classic example) edit around stuff like this in opening posts as a major rvs junkie this post is like, NAI / maybe 1% town indicative

Just getting a quick vote in during my 5-minute internet access at the public library
VOTE: Mastina

awoo

These, however, I remember my issue. It's splitting the difference. Trying to have the best of both worlds. It's not all lighthearted fluff, but it's not all seriousness, yet there's no magical blend of the two. They're separate from one another. There's a magical formula, call it whimsy, call it whatever, where one can be both serious and lighthearted at the same time, yet with the worst here, the seriousness is separated from the lighthearted, and that divide between the two is something I'd expect to see in him as scum.

Look at all of his posting on that page.
There is a grand total of one which doesn't suffer from that problem.
Can you find it?

(VVV It's not this post btw. VVV)

{Nibbui}
{podoboq, Punk Bill, mastina} = null
{InfiniteSoda, nsg}

These reads were also, overall, fairly noncontroversial and ridiculously safe to make. (Skitter was potentially arguably an easy read to have, but, eh. Benefit of the doubt, we'll say that wasn't a safe read even though that conclusion is debatable. The only unambiguously unusual read there was sheep as town in my opinion.)

Everyone was lining up to scumread northsidegal.
Everyone was going to townread Nibbui given like five pages.
Infinite Soda was an easy scumread to take.
podoboq and Pink Bill are both obvious nulls to take as well--the only non-obvious null there is myself, and that can easily be explained by being afraid to sort me the wrong way. (I am equally skilled at picking up erroneous townreads and scumreads. Which, ironically. Makes it an easy to pick out erroneous nullread, but I digress.)

So pretty much an entire readslist filled with safe calls--when northsidegal posted a lazy readslist, it was nothing compared to this one. Because this one is all-around entirely lazy and unoriginal.

That being said--there was, on the next page. A single glimmer of what I was looking for from a town the worst. If I saw more of it, I'd be convinced he was town, but with it only in the one post, it's not something he can't do as scum. (Albeit, not intentionally--the thing I am thinking about is a thing which looks town that he as scum wouldn't have intentionally done and would've done entirely by accident, thus why it wouldn't be replicatable.)

There's also a second town indicator, but of the type which is fakeable.

And the page after contains more content which might be a town indicator, but of a

different type

of can-be-done-as-scum.

Basically.

There's like 3, 4 different types of town-looking content that scum can make--a player making one in overwhelming quantities is an indicator that they aren't scum; a player making more than one in large quantities is indicative of them being town; a player making one of each type--but

not

making more than one or two of each type--is not something that indicates town, because a well-rounded scum player will always hit some of their town notes, in limited quantities.

And quantity is the problem I am talking about--there are aspects of town in the worst's posting, but none so strongly overwhelming as to be something beyond his scum range.
And I see evidence of his scumplay strewn about.

So that catches me up to 241.

The rest is new content for me.

Everything here is carefully constructed. Clinical. Precise. Orchestrated. Calculated.

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

@mastina I think I kinda said a less elaborate version of what I was thinking but lmk if you want some elaboration

I did in fact want this.

To clarify: I don't think I solved the game, that's a joke. But now that I'm caught up I can go with those sweet interactions. I have no solid reads right now, since we still have InfiniteSoda and podoboq not playing at that could change everything. I mean, I think people have talked about InfiniteSoda not being here but nothing about podoboq, so that could mean something, right? I don't like sheep's way of playing and that could influence my read on him. duckling is too damn cute to be real.

My readlist would go something like:
{Nibbui} townread
{mastina; skitter; NSG} townlean (in that order)
{InfiniteSoda, podoboq} Null
{the worst; sheep} scumlean
{-}scumread

This is a god-tiered post.

> preflip associatives
> one dimensional meta tells
> "i'm playing different from my scumgame ERGO"

this might actually be town but god our playstyles are not compatible at all, i'm going to let someone else sort you for me

in the interim what do you like about nsg and what part of mastina's play so far has been notably towny to you?
are you townreading nibbui independently or is it just based on jank pre-flip associatives?

The opposite of a god-tiered post is of course a trash-tiered post, and this would be that!

These statements were flat. There was no life to them. There was no expression, no real feedback, no enthusiasm attached to them. Just dull.

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

idk what to do tw's policy lynch post is definitely pretty bad yeah

Pretty much!

i'm so in 'gottem mode' because i think nsg is uncharacteristically caught zzz

You think you've caught nsg. And yet...

willing to policy {bunk bill, infinitesoda} because i cbf reading thru bill's irritating bravado and rhetoric
think wolves are more like {nsg, ???}
VOTE: nsg

Are willing to lynch two players who if town would place us in lylo, instead of her.

Holy shit, guys. I guess I'm starting my read now. I'll post thoughts as I go. Gonna have to take a break for lunch in a bit.

This was a terrible entrance.

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

Since you've been so cooperative, I think I'll give you my readslist!

northsidegal
Pink Ball
Nibbui
InfiniteSoda
sheepsaysmeep
skitter30
podoboq
the worst

Is this a joke? Soda and I had said literally nothing of value.

VOTE: podoboq.
I know this is not the first time you've seen this style of readslist, where off of seemingly nothing, there is a readslist.
You have played in games featuring that before, rather prominently in fact, and pretending you're not familiar with it won't work because I can hunt them down rather easily. I KNOW you know better than to think this.

Paired with the rather terrible catch-up overall.

I'm actually feeling much, much stronger on podoboq being scum than I am on the worst--which really says something.

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

I'm mafia irl probably

Honestly feel that the worst-podoboq interactions are scum-scum. That banter just altogether has the aura of scum theater to it, where neither is really putting their heart into the interaction with the other.

This was transparently a projection given that sheep-mastina that game was exactly what I was accusing tw-podoboq of being.

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

So I've read through 20, but I'm pretty sure I need to stop reading right now because I'm glossing over everything and not really thinking critically at this point. I'm just.
Scroll. Scroll. Scroll. Scroll scroll scroll. Scroll.

I'm reading, I'm just not really. Processing, if you know what I mean. So this'll be it for now.

That is not a problem I've had this fucking game. This game it's been literally the fucking opposite. Where I've commented frankly more often than I should.

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

whatever nibbui's been doing these last two pages feels textbook twtbw

Right idea.
Wrong user.

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

VOTE: sheepsaysmeep

I'm 100% sure this is scum right now.

We're lynching between me and sheep by the way because I've a lot of confidence in this read.

Oo, cool, finally something for me to disagree with. What in the world are you scumreading about sheep?

I feel like having a negative read on sheep is easy if you're not informed of his alignment like it seems a certain couple of individuals are with their placements.

maybe you and sheep are partners tbh
or maybe sheep with the duck.

Both of these are half-right, but you've got the wrong half to focus on. Like.

so the order is basically "sheep > podoboq > duck".

This is what earned you the N1 nightkill last game.

I was literally being a cheeky scumfuck here.

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

[Nibbui] - town
[--] - town lean
[Pink Ball, Skitter, NSG] - nulltown
[tw, mastina, infinite soda, podoroq] - null
[--] - nullscum
[--] - scum lean
[sheepsaysmeep] - scum

Oof I don't like this

You wouldn't, since it makes Nibbui insanely obvtown to the point where any protective role claiming a protection other than Nibbui is scumclaiming, and happens to point suspicion in the correct direction--a direction you don't want things to be taken.

VOTE: the worst
oh look duck is scum for real

Indeed he is! His reaction only makes it more obvious. This is how he reacts when he's made a plan, only to have it blow up in his face due to the actions of another player.

This is the first thing so much as resembling a reason to scumread the worst that I presented that game and it is not even remotely fucking similar to the reasons I've presented for the worst to be scum this game.

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

as scum I probably wouldn't pick NSG for a d1 lynch, would probably have tried to get a townread out of skitter via real-time interactions, would probably treat you fairly differently to the last time I was scum vs. town you, probably would have avoided engaging with mastina categorically, and I think I'd be less likely to be coming around on Punk Bill and bqpdbqb

Odd.

It seems to me that most of what you're describing as what you'd be doing as scum.
Is exactly what you've been doing.
Voting and having an early push on NSG does not a lynch make and you have since moved off, proving the point.
You haven't really engaged me.
And your stances are slow to move.

exasperated

I've no doubt about this but also see no reason for it to carry alignment. Being scumread by obvtown is exasperating equally as town and scum--for different reasons, but the emotion produced is identical regardless.

This is not how I have pushed the worst this game.

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

I'm feeling like we might need lynch mastina if she doesn't town up because of PoE.

My job is to hunt and lynch scum, not look town.

Looking town is what scum do; lynching scum is what town do.

General rule of thumb, offense comes over defense. I refuse to defend myself against accusations I know aren't true, when I can better use my time to make accusations of my own, which with luck on my side, would be true.

If everyone is looking town to you, then you need to reassess your metrics for what is town--because they are obviously off. If everyone is looking town to you, then you know you're wrong; you need to fundamentally reevaluate what holds actual alignment weight.

The metric I use, I posted already:

There's like 3, 4 different types of town-looking content that scum can make--a player making one in overwhelming quantities is an indicator that they aren't scum; a player making more than one in large quantities is indicative of them being town; a player making one of each type--but

not

making more than one or two of each type--is not something that indicates town, because a well-rounded scum player will always hit some of their town notes, in limited quantities.

And quantity is the problem I am talking about--there are aspects of town in the worst's posting, but none so strongly overwhelming as to be something beyond his scum range.
And I see evidence of his scumplay strewn about.

If a user is producing a type of content which is town in

overwhelming

quantities, it is a fairly safe, reasonable bet that odds are they are town.
If a user is producing a few different types of content which are town in a significant quantity, it is basically all-but assured that they are town.

If a user produces a few sporadic, inconsistent, random pings which look town, but are otherwise overwhelmingly showing evidence otherwise.
That is not town, most of the time.
It is okay if you don't have any real reads to initially use weaker sort methods--and if those weaker sort methods give you a clear direction, great! Hone in on it, refine it, and find what makes them real.

But if your initial weaker sort methods are self-evidently, obviously flawed, then what you need to do is cast them out and start over with a new method that

does

work.

I said it to you last game, and I mean it this time, too.
I genuinely feel like your largest weakness as a player is that you lack conviction--you come to the right conclusion, but talk yourself out of it down the line because of doubt, because of some weak thing that you thought indicated something when it didn't. Reassessing can and is a strength, and I feel that it is your greatest one...but it is only a strength when correctly timed.

A correctly timed reevaluation can fundamentally shift the game in the direction it needs to go; wrongly timed reassessments will fundamentally shift the game in the direction of a mislynch.

maybe you're scum that thought I was scum reading you for the "wrong reasons"

Like this. This is a good thing to have seen. the worst was exasperated, and I've no reason to doubt that; I fully believe it. But I also firmly believe that the worst's exasperation at being scumread came from "I'm scum but not because of that, dammit!". (Even though to some extent I feel he

is

scum because of that.)

Reading the same four slots going back and forth Is giving me the false illusion that everybody's town right now

Effort != alignment. If you think that everyone posting is town, then you need to fundamentally rethink how you are reading players because activity != alignment. If you are townreading everyone that is talking, chances are you have a wrong townread because most of the time there is going to be scum talking.

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

sheep who is scum along with NSG and don't say infinitesoda

That's another thing.

I think I am literally the

only

player.

In the entire fucking game.

Who has a clear scumteam theory.

My scumteam is two individuals--never more, never less.
My scumteam is two individual scumreads...but

also

involves their interactions with each other.
the worst isn't just scum because he's scum; he's scum because of his whole way of treating the podoboq slot.
podoboq isn't just scum because he's scum; he's scum because of his whole way of treating the worst.

Can anyone else produce a coherent team of two?

If you can't.
News for you.

Your scumreads are at least 50% wrong.

Nibbui's come the closest to this, by calling out sheep-the worst, or sheep-podoboq, but the sheep scumread was apparently a reaction. I still maintain that had Nibbui focused on the other half, the correct conclusion would have presented itself.

I think that was the first time I cursed all fucking game and it was incredibly fucking tame.

Not saying scumastina doesn't curse but there is a volume to it.

scumastina basically is clean mouthed with f bombs being precision laser-guided focused, usually.

This game it is pretty fucking apparently not that.

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

Would Mastina ever try to be intentionally scummy as town or is it more likely to be scum WIFOM?

Why is it.
That people keep on saying.
I said I was intentionally trying to be scummy.

When I said no fucking such thing.

At any point in the game.

And said the opposite.
That I do no such thing.
Multiple times.

Copying my scumgame as town does not equate to acting scummy as town--it's

the opposite

. You know what my flowchart says? Effectively, on D1? "If mastina looks town...

lynch her; she's scum

." Because my scumgame is better than my towngame at looking town. My scumgame is more logical than my towngame. My scumgame is more precise, clean, altogether held together, than my towngame. My towngame is a mess, chaotic, hectic, altogether not well-designed.

So as town, I strive to replicate the successful aspects of my scumgame: the calm, collected, cool presence who retains control of the game in a logical way that is reasonably town appearing.

That

is what I mean when I say as town I try to mimic my scumgame.

Which is the furthest thing possible from trying to act scummy as town. I am no user of Slayer's Gambit.

Idk why Mastina’s pushing tw but I’m not liking it, so I’m probably going to vote there. This is obviously tw’s towngame here.

You're not liking it because your reasons for townreading the worst are absolute shit and given enough time I'll be able to tell you precisely why. This is the worst's scumgame here.

Here I was legitimately angry but I was angry about something which I can get angry about as scum.

My push on the worst was in reference to another ongoing game at the time. My "can't explain" was in reference to I believe a game Krazy was modding at the time where I knew that Nancy's read on the worst was fundamentally wrong so I felt justified here because I knew her reasoning was wrong.

It was a push I could make easily because it was a push based around things I knew to be facts.

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

I'm quite surprised that podoboq is above sheep. Why the need to drop sheep so much when you had a more consistent read on him since early?
Also, do you feel that podoboq is towny enough to be that high?

These can be answered by "the worst is scum, pocketing you".

His read on sheep is mirroring your sentiment that this isn't outside of sheep's scumgame.

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

i don't know why you think this game is 'precisely what you'd expect of him as town'; it's kinda subjective and like i don't really know how to translate this into how *i* read people if that makes sense

Well I don't know how to help because I don't understand the confusion to be had. Nibbui is playing this game precisely how I'd expect Nibbui to play as town. I don't know how that'd be in any way subjective or ambiguous. It's exactly what it says.

I thought your readslist was used to reaction test NSG.

I do place people in spots higher than warranted on occasion, but that honor is usually reserved for players who're like soulreads and I can use it before said soulread has developed on them as a reaction test to gain the real read. Usually, you can trust: what you see is what you've got.

I loathe deception in reads. Sure, misdirection in roleclaims is all fine and good, but lying about a read is a bordeline cardinal sin of townplay. So when you see a scumread, it is a real scumread; when you see a townread, it is a real townread.

find a scumgame of mastina's (e.g. mini theme encore mafia now without cults by KittyMo) and read the opening few scum pt posts by mastina, she Knows All

If mastina actually knows all, then she's misrepping me. I think it's more reasonable to say that mastina thinks she knows all.

Why, after having noted that I could be misrepping you, do you instead conclude that I am town that is wrong?

Basically, what I'm saying here is: in spite of me having multiple times displayed content which podoboq has noted a distaste for, he has gone for a stance on me implying I'm town. It's cognitive dissonance.

As a person who hasn't played on site in a long time, and doesn't usually play more than one game at a time, all this talk of meta is going from mildly annoying to seriously frustrating.

This is also doing nothing openly. Active lurking. There's a lack of contribution here altogether.

Dare you to find a post like this I've made this game; you won't find one because this clinical style of posting is not something I fucking do as town.

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

What the fuck are you guys reading? This isn't David Sedaris we're talking about. This is just an atrocious scumhunter.

Again.
Why an atrocious scumhunter and not possible scum?

podoboq is, consistently, treating me as town, for no reason whatsoever.

To a lesser extent, the worst shows similar:

@podoboq I don't know 'cause I haven't played with here, but I love her playstyle. Only by reading her catch up I feel more wise as a person. Just think about it: if she's town, the way she reads the thread is outstanding; if she's scum, even better.

correct
(but she's also sometimes horrifically wrong and tunnels hard)

...But it's not nearly as strong as podoboq is doing.

Nancy hits the point on the head:

Are you finding fault with her play in general or just this game? This criticism seems kind of over the top?

Are you reading her as bad town here?

At last check, the worst wasn't and podoboq wasn't. Neither were townreading me and yet both have this critical stance of me.

Even when podoboq acknowledges that I could be scum...

If mastina is infallible at this game, then she's just scum, and I should just vote her. If she's prone to being exceptionally wrong, then she's probably just exceptionally wrong.

Why are these the only two extremes? Why is it "infallible = scum" or "not infallible = just wrong"? Again, I'm not a townread, so why is me being wrong something that if I'm not infallible makes me town?

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

Podoboq is considerably town

Why?

Everything podoboq has done has been scum.

There's not a hint of town to be had. The only things not indicative of scum are null stuff not indicating

any

alignment.

why Podoboq is scummy and don't say because of his RVS post

I've been telling you why the whole time.

Holy shit, guys. I guess I'm starting my read now. I'll post thoughts as I go. Gonna have to take a break for lunch in a bit.

This was a terrible entrance.

Since you've been so cooperative, I think I'll give you my readslist!

northsidegal
Pink Ball
Nibbui
InfiniteSoda
sheepsaysmeep
skitter30
podoboq
the worst

Is this a joke? Soda and I had said literally nothing of value.

VOTE: podoboq.
I know this is not the first time you've seen this style of readslist, where off of seemingly nothing, there is a readslist.
You have played in games featuring that before, rather prominently in fact, and pretending you're not familiar with it won't work because I can hunt them down rather easily. I KNOW you know better than to think this.

Paired with the rather terrible catch-up overall.

{sheep}
{skitter30, Nibbui}
{the worst}
{Pink Ball}
{mastina} NULL
{InfiniteSoda, northsidegal}

Funny.

This list looks strangely familiar......

{tw}
{sheepy}
{Nibbui}
{}
{skitter}
{podoboq, Punk Bill, mastina} = null
{InfiniteSoda, nsg}
{}so forth

VOTE: sheepsaysmeep

I'm 100% sure this is scum right now.

We're lynching between me and sheep by the way because I've a lot of confidence in this read.

Oo, cool, finally something for me to disagree with. What in the world are you scumreading about sheep?

I feel like having a negative read on sheep is easy if you're not informed of his alignment like it seems a certain couple of individuals are with their placements.

maybe you and sheep are partners tbh
or maybe sheep with the duck.

Both of these are half-right, but you've got the wrong half to focus on. Like.

so the order is basically "sheep > podoboq > duck".

This is what earned you the N1 nightkill last game.

sheep who is scum along with NSG and don't say infinitesoda

That's another thing. I think I am literally the

only

player. In the entire fucking game. Who has a clear scumteam theory.

My scumteam is two individual scumreads...but

also

involves their interactions with each other.
the worst isn't just scum because he's scum; he's scum because of his whole way of treating the podoboq slot.
podoboq isn't just scum because he's scum; he's scum because of his whole way of treating the worst.

Nibbui's come the closest to this, by calling out sheep-the worst, or sheep-podoboq, but the sheep scumread was apparently a reaction. I still maintain that had Nibbui focused on the other half, the correct conclusion would have presented itself.

podoboq's entrance into the game proper was absolutely terrible. Everything about it was bad. The fact that podoboq called my naked readslist bad when I know for a fact podoboq has seen those naked readslists in effect before was what sealed the deal.

His reads closely mirror those of the worst, in a way that no other players' reads have, and then when you did the sheep scumread, the reactions of podoboq and the worst were atrocious to it. They went out of their way to defend sheep, something I feel is a strong display of too much knowledge. You are quite apt in saying that this is not outside of sheep's scum range--so why, then, is a player who is not outside of their scum range warranting so strong a defense from these two particular players? It reeks of white knighting.

The whole interaction between podoboq and the worst--which happened a grand total of once in the game--felt like it was orchestrated scum theater, where neither party was really putting much thought into their process of sorting the other.

This is probably the closest post I made in that game to being a post I'd make as town for what it's worth--so a post like this you could plausibly see me make as town.

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

Are you actually scumreading me or are you calling the scumteam based off one conversation which you misconstrued?

If I wasn't exhausted right now I'd go construct a mirror to the podoboq thing I just did, for you.

Suffice to say?

Yes.

NSG who is fairly good at reading me is allegedly town in your books, townread me at opening and then saw no reason to reconsider that before replacing out?

Considering you yourself acknowledged that her ability to do so has diminished, this is rather hypocritical of you.

Suffice to say, even had you insisted the whole game that her ability to read you held true? Frankly. I wouldn't buy it; I'd put zero stock in it.

The difference being that in this game when I've been exhausted I've still fucking delivered.

Even as I am typing this I am fucking tired as fuck.

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

It's extremely obvious that my problem with the readslist you originally posted is that you have me and InfiniteSoda, both of which contributed absolutely nothing to the game, very separate from eachother.

And that is what I was referring to when I said you have seen this trait before.

I, 100%.

Know for a fact.

That you have seen the trait of two players contributing absolutely nothing in the game, being separated from each other in readslists before.

And yet your attitude implied you haven't, even though I know you have.

I straight up don't know what you're talking about. Most people don't have photographic memories of their games. If this has happened before in one of my games, I don't remember it, and just because you consider it significant in one game doesn't mean it should have been significant to me.

It wasn't just one game; it was multiple games. And considering the trait is something that was very notable at the time, I flat-out don't believe that you could have forgotten about it.

we're dealing with scum!mastina so that'll help pad things out!

Ooh! Ooh! So are we gonna like.
Go the indirect route where you try to lynch my "scumbuddy" Nancy while I go lynch your scumbuddy podoboq...
...Or the direct route where we just cross-vote?

I'm fine with either!

The first half of this was flat but I'll admit that the second half of this could plausibly come from me as town. It's still something which I'd say is more likely from scumastina tho and it is something which isn't remotely similar to anything I've done this fucking game.

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

can you explain to me how mastina was being scummy?

Shouldn't you know, given you're calling me scum?

Alright this is another case of "I'd post this as town even though in this particular game I haven't posted something like this".

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

You and mastina were the unique considerable wagons and we're approaching deadline and the game is stalled

Gee I wonder why.
Maybe it's because.
The wagons there are shit?

Almost every player here has a scum lean in your slot also

That alone should be a red fucking flag.

@everyone

, could you play the fucking game instead of talking about your meta?

P-edit

Hello, active lurking scum. Nice to meet you, I'm mastina. We should get properly acquainted; I'm rather fond of bonding--specifically, with rope. Around the neck.

This post is an example of something which similar to it would be town but you can tell that this specific iteration of it came from scumastina. My statement of it being a red fucking flag is something which can come from me as town but in this case my

delivery

of the line was flat and lifeless. The top and bottom parts were plausibly town tho.

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

Well, I’m wondering why Mastina is so certain I’m town. How familiar is she with NSG meta because I know she can’t be tio familiar with mine.

False on not knowing yours--I'm rather intimately familiar with it given we've played something like ten games together. Or if not played, I've been involved in at least ten if nothing else. But I already explained why nsg became my townread.

northsidegal is, 100% of the time, always town. the worst is, 100% of the time, always scum.

Never doubt it.

When people quoted this, they seemed to forget the most important part of the quote--the bolded. The bolded phrase here, "never doubt it". Is never something said seriously--it's a deadpan snark. I was referring specifically to how, 100% of the time, no matter how much you may think she's scum, northsidegal is pretty much always 100% of the time actually town. With an undertone of how even when she is scum, she is

still

town.

It then figures that the same was true of the worst--I was referring to how, disproportionately, the worst draws scum role PMs time and time again, and is almost always the last anti-town that the town is suspicious of. Yet when he is town, people tend to still think he is scum, especially me, in part due to paranoia of knowing just how good his scumgame can be. So it can be said that, no matter how much you may think he's town, he's scum, 100% of the time, even if his role PM says otherwise.

...But

in spite of that

.

My vote was placed on the worst--if this were 100% a joke read, I'd not have done that, and kept it there.

The reason for these reads, if you look at it, is pretty self-evident:
I'd actually describe as a northsidegal-type of inquisitive: pushing forward, but lighthearted when doing so.

oooooooo mystery!!!!
VOTE: nibbui

northsidegal's entrance

screamed

town. She was incredibly whimsical, unafraid to be the third vote on a wagon, and seemed like she was, genuinely, having a good time.

northsidegal is an inquisitive player, pushing forward, but lighthearted when doing so; that is the exact vibe I got from her posts, as I later explain:

/lazyposting
{nsg}
{tw, sheep}
{skitter}
{everyone else}
{nibbui}

This readslist was exactly what she said it was: lazy. It's a pretty terrible readslist, but alignment-wise my thought on it was that it was completely and entirely, 100%, not alignment indicative either way. Given my prior townread on nsg tho, it wasn't really worth bringing up.

When I saw her interact with Nibbui more, I thought it was a fairly town-town interaction on both sides

, tho--but because both were already topping my townreads

anyway

, I didn't really feel like emphasizing the fact.

When I say someone is town, I tend not to put special emphasis on them being town past that point--the sole exception to this is if the player I am calling town is at risk of being lynched. If they are close to being lynched, then, obviously, I need to emphasize why they are town to dissuade that outcome, but other than that, my feeling is mostly a "said once, then done". I said nsg and Nibbui were town, I was done.

Pink Ball and podoboq seems frustated with you talking about your own meta and I don't want you guys to argue with each other over it

Nope. It's everyone talking about everyone's meta. It's all meta. This single day with people has been longer than entire games I've played. It's tiring.

Still doing nothing, and this point is one I feel is egregious anyway.

There's plenty of non-meta evidence to be had.
While meta does have a prominent place in discussion--as it should--it is not overwhelmingly dominating as podoboq is pretending.

This is a post demonstrating the difference between scumastina and town mastina rather nicely.
scumastina said "this is false, here's why"; town me just goes "this is absolute bullshit; x y z and that's why this is bullshit" more or less.

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

idk how to explain that better; this feels like a game where scum might be in the townbloc

You know my answer.

Skitter had like at least three AI posts in their ISO and its concerning you are late to the game on that

No, it's concerning pretending skitter had that many strong alignment-indicative posts in her iso given her nature--in other words, the real concern isn't me being "late"; it's those who were early in giving that townread.

I feel like skitter does warrant one, but pretending she warranted one from essentially the onset is ridiculous unless your experience with her is on soulread levels. She's quite competent as both alignments and has a style almost identical between them; to read her as town, you need to find the content which is beyond her ability to fake as scum, and that content didn't exist as far as I could tell until much later in her iso than you are saying.

And if she is at all in any way honest with herself, she'd be the

first

to tell you this.

Another instance of a flat lifeless post. There is no passion, no energy, behind this post.

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

I think no one can correctly read mastina here and her posts at least for me are nullscum because I've not seen any fluidity on her reads
she did read the opening posts and her later readlist is basically the same than it was on page 1 or 2
that's not normal imo

Nibbui what are you high on.

My reads didn't change one iota in Red Flag.

And while I haven't been town in many games recently, my reads never changed in Labyrinth, Varsoon Variety, Stock Photos, Be Someone Else, or Magical Girls Mafia.

And they only changed

once

in Earthbound, with a similar reluctance to change in Scummers in this Game.

You literally saw me explain my philosophy as to why.

My reads only change when I have reason to change them.

I've no reason to change my Mephistophanes read; I was townreading nsg, I'm townreading Nancy, and I'm townreading Aristophanes.
I've no reason to change my podoboq read; I gave you my scum case, the entirety sum of why people are townreading podoboq seems to be "oh I liked these reads from podoboq" (which is absolute horseshit), and he continues to scum it up whenever he posts.
I've no reason to change my the worst read; I haven't given you the case, and admittedly I've slacked off a bit in hounding his posts, but he is still playing scum here and I can better explain that later.

I've only had one read change--skitter moving to being a townread--but that's because there's only been the one read that has had reason to change.

Pink Ball is just as town as before and continues to town it up whenever present.
You are even more town and continue to town up whenever present.
Lolwagons is someone who is a strong enough scum player to not be outside his scum range and it's hard to lock down anything he's said as being undeniably town, but there's also a lack of scum indicators. In other words, he continues his slot's position of being null, because I haven't locked onto an unambiguously town or unambiguously scum indicator from him.
sheep has continued to produce content, and my read actually

has

changed there...several times. By which I mean fully ambivalent on him. There are areas where I hard-townread what he was doing, but were followed immediately by areas where I hard-scumread what he was doing, so it's impossible right now to lock him down.

Those two reads I imagine

will

change in the future, when I CAN lock them down, similar to how my read on skitter changed from being right in that null pool with them to town. But it hasn't changed yet, because nothing there has changed. My reads change when there is reason for them to change, when there is something that definitively points me in a new direction.

And that largely hasn't happened.
Because my conclusions remain the same.
Because nothing has come up that changes said conclusions.

There is not a lick of anger in this post. This post I was incredibly respectful. This post I was incredibly diplomatic. This post I was incredibly polite. Because scumastina couldn't be angry at Nibbui because Nibbui had me nailed dead to rights--I had to defend against it, but I knew that Nibbui had me pegged correctly so I couldn't be mad. I couldn't be angry about something which was right and which correctly identified me as scum.

Compare and contrast what I've done this game where oh yeah. I have every fucking reason to be ticked off.

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

I can’t help get the feeling that Mastina has somehow set up a situation with an artificial 1v1 between tw and myself. Having us as her #1 townread and the worst, as her #1 scumread.

You apparently haven't been paying attention if you think the worst is my #1 scumread; that'd be podoboq.

You also apparently haven't been reading my fucking posts, because.

She approaches this in a deliberately scummy way

I already fucking answered this. I did no such thing so stop fucking saying I did.

Neither Mastina’s #1 townread on us or #1 scumread on the worst are ever explained

Also false.

Read my fucking posts because

literally nothing you're saying about me is true

.

Here I was legitimately angry. This wasn't faked, so this is an example of scumastina anger. But look at what that anger is about. It is not even REMOTELY the same.

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

like rn she's talking about her townread on NSG which was a pretty forced read ("ooo mystery" isn't like. towny/lassaiz-faire in rvs and realistically is not the kind of thing you look at for a towny solving mindset in rvs, surely, please tell me if you think this is being dumb) and tmi townread of Nancy which she's mostly let sit on the back burner while we actually pushed Nancy but is yelling about now she realises it's not a mislynch

The reason I'm not defending Nancy in spite of the pressure there is, because I was catching up.

What good does defending against Nancy pressure posted 20 pages ago do, if by the time I'm caught up, it turns out that there's no pressure there? (Which is pretty much...exactly what happened?) I mean, sure. If Nancy were still in danger at this point, you can bet your ass I'd go to her defense, but frankly. Simply put. She isn't. So it's not needed.

I do what I need to do in games, and don't waste time/effort on things I don't need to do. Nancy needs no defense right now, so she doesn't get it. Nancy needed it 20 pages ago...but

I wasn't here 20 pages ago

. So retroactively giving her defense would be just as much a waste of my time as giving a player already mislynched a case on why they are town.

This was frankly a scumclaim because I don't take that approach as town.

Even this game I've not taken that approach.

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

one spicy take: scum!me lolhammers there instead of giving intent because I'm completely cognisant of how heavily Nancy can spew town under pressure

Except she wasn't actually at L-1 and you're a thorough enough scum player to not make that mistake.

It is specifically because you gave intent rather than voting that it's scum-indicative, honestly.

This push is incredibly flat. It is lifeless. It has no emotion to it, no passion to it.

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

I wonder if I'm getting under Mastina's charm though

She is strangely charming

(Btw, that's actually a weak towntell of mine. scumastina is an ass, so is anything but charming. The charm comes from me when I'm town, since I just have a way with people, I guess.)

mastina my problem isn't you lacking fluidity on your reads, I know somewhat that when you fix your reads on someone, you stay with that for a while
my problem is that you fixed your reads on page 1 or 2
in Red Flag you had a whole day to fix your reads on and it makes sense you keeping them static there
here you hadn't much to base they on firstly though
maybe it's just a coincidence however

Go do some research on me.

I am infamous for making page one readslists.

Reads which often last a significant portion of the game, partially or entirely.

My reads didn't change past the first couple of pages, because the first couple of pages were all I needed to get them. I extrapolate a lot from the RVS. My personal philosophy reads-wise is, "when in doubt, go back to the RVS". I treat it as incredibly valuable (which is honestly one of the reasons I latched onto Gamma as scum in red flag, for the usage of the proven-scumsided RQS that is much harder to get a read on than normal RVS is), because I have developed a whole nuanced process behind extrapolating from RVS posts alignments of individuals.

While these are always guesswork at best, sometimes, especially in smaller games, these reads prove to have merit, when later content supports my original conclusion.

You'll find with sufficient research both a number of games where my reads change after the RVS readslist, and a number of games where they didn't.

I am scumreading the worst because his entrance screamed scum and all his content since then has only supported that conclusion.
I wasn't actually strongly scumreading podoboq. If you were to look at my original readslist, the separation for it would've been:

northsidegal
Pink Ball
Nibbui

InfiniteSoda
sheepsaysmeep

skitter30

podoboq

the worst

This. But since then, my scumread on podoboq has grown, to the point where he's my strongest scumread, stronger even than the worst.

So my current readslist would be:
Mephistophanes
Nibbui
Pink Ball

skitter

Lolwagons
sheepsaysmeep

the worst
podoboq.

Just because the players I'm suspicious of haven't changed, doesn't mean that it's been entirely static. podoboq went from slight scumread to strongest scumread.

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

I can see where Mastina is coming about podoboq as well
not their RVS entrance or whatever
but their play here is very consensus and laid back yes
oh god...

Never thought you'd end up sheeping me, eh?

like @tw i guess my problem with ur mastina push rn is that it feels a little conveniently-timed? like as your wagon heats up you decide mastina - who happens to be ur counterwagon - is obvscum

Also.
the worst isn't really saying I'm scum for anything--because

he can't

. He's more saying that I'm not town, just because I'm not being townread.

I can't accurately read mastina imo. but I don't really see her town motivation here and like I can happily be talked outta this but I don't think anyone's convincingly townreading her....?

As so.

Another flat, lifeless post--the points in there might be good, but they are clinical. Precise. Calculated. Calm, cool, collected. Without a trace of emotion to them.

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

I'm a lategame confirmable town power role.

Uh-huh.

Sure you are.

See that unvote?

That's the degree to which I believe you.

For context: as scum, I had setup information based on my role PM which let me know that the worst was fakeclaiming.

This put the truth into my side. I knew that the worst was fakeclaiming, so I could legitimately, genuinely push him in spite of me being scum because I knew for a 100% fact that he was fakeclaiming and that gave my push some sincerity--due to the information I had as scum (which I later mostly truthclaimed albeit slightly modified), I knew for a FACT that he wasn't what he said he was, and because I knew for a fact that he wasn't what he said he was, I could push him with honesty.

Subject: micro 840: mystery box of silver (this is over)

Like.

This is a micro.

The longest possible game is to D4.

There is no such thing as a lategame confirmable town power role.

The final push on the worst--where I was 100% right and could push so safely because the truth was on MY side.

So what in that game resembles this one, hmm?

~Nested Spoilers replaced by area tags. Jingle

[mastina]

Oh fuck I didn't realize one of the posts I quoted contained a spoiler=[/spoiler] tag.

Jingle: please fix my post and delete the spoiler= [/spoiler] tag inside of that post so that my spoiler= properly reduces the size of my post.

[Jingle]

Spoiler: ...But if you insist on having an answer......

Jingle: This is the spot where the spoiler tag in my post broke. Please delete the "spoiler=" part and remove the[/spoiler] which came at the end of the quoted 1216

.
I'll repost the post if need be if Jingle's a lazy bum who won't fix a broken tag that makes the page painful to read but I'd much rather he just fix the broken tag so that the page isn't painful to read.

~Friendly reminder, please close spoilers nested inside of quote tags or the tigers will eat the site. ~Jingle

[mastina]

...How the fuck.

Jingle: Please fix whatever the fuck went wrong with 6702 I don't even fucking know how I broke the site when trying to illustrate where the broken spoiler tag was.

[mastina]

since when were you a hostile person?

Since he drew scum.
















































































































































(No not really actually, I just felt like saying that. He's scum for other reasons but being hostile's not a scumtell for him, I just wanted to mess with him by saying it was.)

[mastina]

And I started pushing mastina long ago, this shows that you haven't even read my posts, and I called you out for this before.

This is the mastina "push" you are talking about:

When you described who qualifies to be on Pine's team, both mastina and PenguinPower stood up

"mastina is a good pick for Pine". That is the entirety of what you said there.

About 1450, I think you're trying to make us townread each other like you did in pfup. I'm voting the duck for the same reason.
I'm not a fan of Ari, he's way too focused on jjh. mastina and PP are on my watchlist. I have stronger townreads than scumreads tho.

"mastina is on my watchlist". This is not a reason for a scumread; this is a flat statement.

I've stated my concerns about mastina and PP, but I have nothing else to say about them.

Maybe doing a control-f of my name made me miss these mystical concerns about me because if you stated any such concerns beyond the above I couldn't find them by searching my name.

mastina
Didn't read her long post

"I didn't read one of mastina's most important posts in the game where she hard spewed her alignment by explaining her thoughts start to finish, and am choosing to ignore that post because I can't push her as scum if I actually read it".

That sure is some push!

[mastina]

I don't see what's wrong with my push on mastina, maybe it was the timing.

What's wrong is that this has been transparently my fucking towngame since D1.
Even if.
IF.
Even fucking IF D1 weren't enough--and by all fucking rights it fucking should be--so much as the fucking START of D2 should've told you that I was town because I never fucking open D2 the way I did here as scum and you fucking KNOW it is exactly what I'd do as town.

[mastina]

ISO it?
Or even after that is it still nothing?

I keep on forgetting about chennisden whenever I think of scumspects in the game.
Like I'll go,
"Krazy's scum, Firebringer's scum, the worst is scum, popsofctown is scum, Pink Ball is scum, but since I doubt all five of them are scum I guess PenguinPower could be scum", and then consistently forget about chennisden being included in that list, up there with PP in the darkhorse candidates which likely actually contain one scum.

Given that I consistently am forgetting about listing chennisden.
Frankly he's probably just actually scum but fucked if I could write a case for why, it'd just be a "he's scum because he's out of focus" case and that's literally the only reason I have even though I think that honestly it's probably legitimately a good one.

[mastina]

1. It's based on who she is pushing and the way she's doing it. Instead of giving actual reads on her scumreads, she's going for the "this is a good pick for Pine" angle while she should be inmune to scumreads because "Pine wouldn't pick me" while "everyone is a good Pine pick".

Bullshit. Let's take a look at the reads I've actually given, shall we?

Spoiler: First wallpost readslist

Skygazer/Titus
^When it comes to Skygazer, I will admit: I am quite aware that Skygazer is the perfect pocket pick for Pine to make as scum. She's a smooth operator when it comes to worming her way through towns, and yet she's lowkey enough that none would really suspect her of doing so. A solid choice for him to make. So why is she my top townread? Because while I know she'd be a perfect pick for Pine, she's just an obvtown slot.

Plus.
If replacements in this game work anything like in previous iterations of the game.
Pine controls who replaces into his scumteam and Jingle controls who replaces into the town, and Titus is more of a Jingle replacement than a Pine replacement. Yes, there's value in Titus being scum, but it's a pick more likely to come from Jingle.

This read is literally the fucking OPPOSITE of relying on "Pine would pick them". Here I outline exactly why Skygazer is a good pick for Pine...and said that "But it doesn't matter if she was the perfect pick, she simply isn't scum".

Literally the fucking opposite of the alleged 'this is a good pick for Pine' angle.

0-1 so far.

Ankamius
^I said it before: the only way Ankamius is town is if Jingle sniped her away from Pine before Pine could pick her. The thing is, I actually believe that's exactly what happened. It's dangerous territory to tread, but I legit think that when Pine said that Jingle did snipe away picks from him that he wanted, he was telling the truth--and Ankamius would be an obvious example of exactly that. This is why she's much higher up on my readslist compared to where she previously was.

This IS an example of "This is a good pick"--I won't say it wasn't because that is quite explicitly exactly what it was.

1-1 so far.

MariaR
^Pine could pick MariaR because she's an absurdly good scum player and not really the best town player. Could. I don't think he did tho. I admit, I don't have any logic, any reasoning behind this. Just gut, that she's town this game.

This is another anti-example of it. This isn't saying "I think Pine didn't pick her because my gut tells me Pine didn't pick her"; this is saying "I think Pine didn't pick her because my gut tells me that she is town".

1-2 so far.

Gamma Emerald
^Gamma's similar to MariaR, but better as town and worse as scum. Still GOOD as scum, and reasonably decent as town. So Pine could pick Gamma. I just don't think he did. Again, no reasoning tho. Just gut. I know from experience I can't really read Gamma, but I just FEEL Gamma's town.

Mirrors the MariaR reasoning. Not "Pine didn't pick Gamma because my gut says he didn't"; "Pine didn't pick Gamma because my gut says Gamma is town".

1-3 so far.

Firebringer
^Firebringer is the ultimate slot of me being utterly unable to read him. Like, I think my read accuracy on him sits at some impressive number like out of 40 games having it at like 5%? No joke, it's that low. I can't read him and I don't really have a metric for whether Pine would recruit him or not. He's an underestimated player regardless of his alignment. Skilled town, skilled scum, but with a playstyle which makes you think he's neither. So he'd be a decent pick for Pine, I know this. And I also know that I can't read him. But in spite of that. I agree with those who say he looks town; if I had to guess, I would think exactly that.

Here I actually explain why at the time I held a townread on Firebringer, and this townread wasn't based around "Pine didn't pick him".

1-4 so far.

Chickadee
^Honestly the only way Chickadee is scum is if Pine deliberately chose her as a pocket pick nobody would expect, think like the Aristophanes of last game. Admittedly, that's not impossible--after all, Pine did in fact pick Aristophanes last game. But while it's not impossible, I don't think it particularly probable. I'm not really feeling Chickadee as scum. This feels like her usual towngame performances I've seen. Admittedly, I am unfamiliar with her scumgame; I have seen her multiple times as town but I can't recall the last time she was scum. So this is a flawed perspective especially since Pine gives coaching to his partners on how to play. But push come to shove, lacking any alternative assessment, she's town to me.

Here I outline having a townread on Chickadee based on meta.

1-5 so far.

Pink Ball
^This is probably Pink Ball's towngame. It's not definitive. It's questionable. But I'm willing to take the gamble on it. Sure, he's underperforming, but I don't think the underperformance is because he's scum; I actually think if anything it's kinda proof that he's town. I do think that Pink Ball could be selected by Pine; he knows PB's good regardless of his alignment, denying him from the town would be smart and he'd still deliver as scum. But if I had to guess, I'd say he didn't.

This wasn't "Pine didn't pick PB because reasons", this was "Pine didn't pick PB because I think this is PB's towngame".

1-6 so far.

Iconeum
^If Iconeum has contributed content, I've missed it in my not-very-thorough reading of the game. He's someone Pine could select as a pocket pick; he's not incompetent as scum and is someone who can fly under the radar for ages. I initially placed him under chennisden (see below) for exactly this reason. However, that having been said. I've seen Iconeum as scum recently. He doesn't seem to be the same Iconeum from that game, and that's why I bumped him up to here; I know I should probably investigate this more, but for now I'm okay calling him weakly town.

Again, my reason for townreading him isn't based around Pine's assessment of Iconeum, but on MY recent experience with Iconeum. MY meta with Iconeum, not Pine's.

1-7 so far.

chennisden
^This is about where my null list starts. I don't have a read on chennis one way or another. I also have no clue how Pine would assess him.

Null read, no assessment of Pine's viability in the pick.

1-8 so far.

Dannflor
^Dannflor is an amazing town player but I've zero idea how Pine would think of him in terms of selecting him as a scumbuddy. That having been said: his play this game is incredibly underwhelming given what he's capable of. It's a little bit iffy as a result.

I mention having no clue how Pine would treat Dann, but at the time being iffy about his content.

1-9 so far.

PenguinPower
^Honestly does PP play the game much regardless of his alignment? I get the impression that regardless of his alignment 95+% of his posting's just going to be memeing. Pine could easily select PP, but I've no gauge on whether he actually did or not.

This one was later edited into "actually, Pine might legit pick PenguinPower" so I'll concede this one because yeah that's mostly off of Pine Pick logic.

2-9 so far.

Formerfish
^Formerfish is another player who, in spite of his content thusfar, I'm finding difficult to get a grasp on. He's the kind of pocket pick I can see Pine making, but I can't really tell if Pine did or not.

"I can't tell if Pine picked him and I can't read his content yet". This was later changed to a townread off of his content.

2-10 so far.

Menalque
^To be honest. Menalque's someone I probably scumread regardless of his alignment, not gonna lie here. I believe we've played twice together and I scumread him both times--sure, in one game he was scum, but in the other game he was town and I'm not sure I can tell the difference between the two. I can say that as town he seemed to give more content than as scum, which would be a bad sign for him this game, but he's also not exactly showing the things I'd expect from him as scum, which is a promising sign.

I didn't even MENTION Pine here.

There's no fucking way you could contest this.

So automatically.

2-11 so far.

Untrod Tripod/xReckonerx
^Pine knows that UT can carry a scumgame and Reck is the type of replacement Pine would love to make. So I can easily see this being a scum slot. That having been said. While I can see it as a scum slot, there's nothing which makes me convinced it IS a scum slot. Gun to my head I'd actually lean otherwise, which honestly makes me think he might be placed too low, but I've been debating on whether he's too high or too low on my readslist a lot because I'm weary of the slot, which is why he's here.

"Pine could select, but I don't think he did because I'm not convinced it's a scum slot off of content".

2-12 so far.

GreyICE
^There are reasons GreyICE could be town. Namely, if LLD is scum then GreyICE isn't because while they COULD bus like this easily and it's within their scum metas to do so in this fashion, I don't think Pine would approve--not because of any strategic reason, mind you. Just because the resulting gamestate from their fight is INCREDIBLY unfun and Pine wouldn't want to win because his scumteam orchestrated an unfun gamestate for the game.

There are also fairly strong reasons for GreyICE to be scum.
He's used meta, when he is a strong proponent of meta being bullshit.
His play is vastly underwhelming because aside from pushing LLD he's done basically nothing.
He's someone that Pine knows is good at both town and scum and is someone Pine could easily pick to get some oldguard in the game.
So overall this is where my "could be scum" list starts.

This one isn't based on Pine picks even though the townread is related to Pine's thoughts; this one is based on what actually happened in the game and how Pine wouldn't have let that happen if they were scumbuddies.

So still.

2-13 so far.

Katsuki
^Pine picked Katsuki as a replacement in the first iteration of this game for damn good reason. Katsuki's a skilled scum player, who also has a knack for pulling impressive townplays if left unchecked, so picking Katsuki is a good denial pick. That having been said, while I think Katsuki's play here could be scum, I know that Katsuki's alignment should become more obvious as the game progresses and right now I'm not sure it's scum.

"Pine could pick Katsuki, but I'm not sure he did yet, I need more time/content to tell". Time/content being based on the thread...yep.

2-14 so far.

DrippingGoofball
^Honestly DGB's a bit past her prime. She used to be one of the best town/scum players in the old meta but in the current meta she's only so-so. She's this low for a combination of "Pine could pick her because of nostalgia and hoping to bring back her at her prime" and her play being vastly underwhelming, but that having been said, similar to UT/Reck, I've debated on her positioning here; I almost put her much much higher in my readslist because I'm not convinced she's scum.

"Pine could pick her and her play is underwhelming, but she might be town". Not based around Pine picks; based around content provided.

2-15 so far.

xofelf
^When I made my original readslist, xofelf was quite high up. This was through a combination of reasons. I didn't believe Pine would be a dick enough to make her be scum and have such an unfun time and I liked the content which she had given. LLD's case made me reconsider both of these points. I am not

convinced

that LLD's case was on the money, on point, accurate and correct. But if nothing else I admit it has

merit

to it, and the idea is certainly at least plausible. I'm not convinced it's

probable

, but the plausibility of Pine picking xofelf as scum exists enough for her to be about here.

"I thought Pine didn't pick her and I thought her content was town. LLD's case made me reconsider both halves of this assessment, but I'm not convinced".

Not revolving around Pine's pick; still revolves around her game content.

2-16 so far.

Lady Lambdadelta
^Honestly my main suspicion on LLD is the Commuter claim in that it is a role that Pine would want more than Jingle would, it is a role which feels like there's better players for Jingle to give it to, and it is a role that feels like it'd mesh poorly with other town roles in the setup. These are all very solid reasons for LLD's claim to be suspect. But I can also see the other side; I can understand why LLD's Commuter role could be something Jingle would give her. I understand that Commuter IS a role Jingle could use, in spite of it probably meshing poorly with other town roles in the setup; I actually can see the logic and reasoning behind Jingle giving it to her even if I think there's better choices.

From a pick perspective, LLD would be a player of high value to Pine, but also to Jingle. She is a VERY strong scum player and a damn good town player, too. She is also an obvious choice for Pine to pick--Pine can choose obvious choices, but he's under no obligation to do so. Plus, there's the whole matter of how regardless of her alignment, she's a distraction.

Ali, I disagree that lynching her removes her as a distraction. You know why? Because once she flips, regardless of what she flips, the division between the town established today from the two sides, those fighting for her being scum and those fighting for her being town, will continue after her death. Whichever side was right will feel vindicated and the distraction will remain after her demise as a consequence of this interaction.

If I had to give a guess, my guess would actually be that she's town. My heart wants her to be scum because I want to believe in the players pushing her as being scum having the right reasoning, having locked on to accurate facts, good sound logic that holds true. But I'm somewhat skeptical of this. I can't really articulate why I'm skeptical, so call the skepticism gut if you must. I'm just hesitant to commit here because while I objectively see all the reasons for her to be scum, something about it doesn't feel right.

Also, sidenote: the jjh-Aristophanes division on her feels ridiculously orchestrated by Pine.

This read was very much about the play in the game not the pick.

2-17 so far.

popsofctown
^I'll be honest, I don't really have much of a read here and have no clue how Pine would treat pops. Pops is this low purely through gut reaction of me not liking what I've seen. I've no judgement on the accuracy of this gut, but it's all I'm going on.

"No clue how Pine would treat pops, but by gut I'm thinking pops is scum".

As explicitly as possible.

2-18.

the worst
^If the worst is town this game, he is vastly, VASTLY underperforming. This feels a lot more like his scumgame than his towngame to me. He's also the kind of player I think that Pine's more likely to pick and while I can see Jingle having selected him, I think that balance of probabilities, this is probably not his towngame. I know that the worst can as town have vastly underwhelming performances as town and that the worst as scum doesn't necessarily underperform. But I just feel like it's more likely in this case for this game that the worst is scum underperforming not town underperforming.

Self-evidently based around the worst's contributions to the game, not Pine.

2-19.

Krazy
^So my thoughts on Krazy can be summed up as: If Pine picked Krazy to be scum, it would be a dick move. Pine would know from experience that Krazy is burned out from playing scum and wouldn't have much fun in the role. Pine would know that while Krazy is an amazing town player, he's only so-so as a scum player. But the reason I think that Pine could pick Krazy in spite of it being a dick move is a combination of:
1: Pine could feel that, with his involvement in the scum PT, he could revitalize Krazy's scumplay. He could see it as a challenge, to try and make Krazy have fun in a role he currently abhors.
2: Pine could value Krazy as a player to help balance and round out his scumteam composition.
3: Pine could pick Krazy to deny the town access to one of its better scumhunters, which is especially true if Pine was denied the chance to grab Ankamius. (You don't want Ankamius and Krazy to be able to work together.)
4: Krazy is not an obvious choice to pick, which means that Pine could get away with it without anybody really thinking about it.
Probably more reasons that I am forgetting about.

So there's a case to be made both ways. I can see Pine thinking Krazy's a good pick; I can see Pine not picking Krazy. Heck, I can even see Jingle denying Pine the chance to pick Krazy albeit not as likely as with Ank.

So why is Krazy so low?

Because my stance on him thusfar this game can be summed up as such: I haven't seen anything which makes me particularly townread him, nor have I seen anything which makes me particularly scumread him.

The last time I had that stance on him...he was scum.

So I think that it's more likely that he's scum.

This is literally in favor of the opposite. "Picking Krazy is a dick move for Pine...but given Krazy's play here is his scum meta, it looks like it happened anyway".

2-20.

jjh
^jjh is a scumread because simply put he's scum this game.

I mean I didn't mention Pine here at all so.

2-21.

Aristophanes
^You know my initial joke reasoning for scumreading Ari? Not in any way a joke. Aristophanes was a clutch pick by Pine last game. The entirety of the scumteam--Aristophanes included--thought that Pine first picking Aristophanes last game was basically Pine trolling/borderline gamethrowing. But last game, the entire reason the scumteam won was BECAUSE Pine first picked Aristophanes as scum.

Now, Pine probably, legitimately, wouldn't first pick Aristophanes as scum again, that much is probably true. But I still think that Pine picked Aristophanes as scum anyway. In part, because people wouldn't think he'd do it twice. In part, because Aristophanes is fun to have as a scumbuddy. In part, because Aristophanes would be a glue to help hold the team comp whatever it is together. In part, because Aristophanes still had room to grow and one of the things Pine likes to do in these games is to coach his scumbuddies into growing as scum players, to become better at scumplay than they were before and Aristophanes still had room to grow.

Aristophanes had stated that he always has looked up to me to perform well as scum and while I'm not scum this game so he wouldn't have me to be that direct source of inspiration, he'd still have good reason to try and impress, to do his best, to exceed any and all expectations of him as scum. And I think that his play here is exactly that. I think that his play here is his evolved top-form scumplay, not his signature townplay.

This one contains elements of being revolved around Aristophanes's play, but I'll admit that yes this read was mostly Pine-centric.

So final score:
3-21.

3 reads revolving around Pine.

21 which did not.

It's also patently false that I've been hypocritical.
My stance hasn't changed and there is no contradiction behind it.
Everyone could be picked.
There is no fucking doubt about that.
There are players who are better picks than others.
There is no fucking doubt about that.
There are players who would in general be good picks but IN THIS GAME would be shitty picks. There is no fucking doubt about that; I am one of those players.
There are players who would in general be shitty picks but IN THIS GAME would be good picks. There is no fucking doubt about that.
Everyone has reason to be picked, so asking "why wouldn't Pine pick X" is a fucking mistake. There is no fucking doubt about that.
But going over the why and how Pine DID/DIDN'T pick X isn't a fucking mistake.

There is nothing in that which is contradictory; these stances all augment one another.

rather an opportunistic kind of reads.

Yes because reads I've held the whole fucking game before literally any other player has so much as fucking ENTERTAINED the idea of them being scum are

totally

opportunistic and not in any way shape or form me having had a fucking scumread the entire fucking game.

Last but not least: would scum!PB, who has experience with mastina, REALLY try to get her lynched instead of anyone else in this playerlist?

Why wouldn't you when a mastina mislynch is viable and incredibly pro-scum since I might legit be the only full ungated non-fruit protective role in the game? There are players that Pine probably wants to nightkill but if he can't actually stop my bodyguard, he might avoid killing them specifically because of that. A mastina mislynch means he can plow through the town with no fear.

[mastina]

I know my ISO like the back of my hand. That's my secret, I'm chaotic, but with a purpose.

And yet you think I am scum when you saying this about yourself knowing everything you do about me is a pot kettle black.

[mastina]

Hey mastina, PB, and whoever else has Dancefloor as locktown.

Want to talk about why?

Honestly?

Not really, no. You're conftown and you're asking me to explain why a player who is locktown is locktown so I know I really should explain it. I should, I just...right now really don't want to. It's the kind of read which is basically aside from you almost uncontested so it's a little hard to motivate myself to explain it even though it's conftown asking me to do so because...like...most of the players in the game, as far as I can tell, just "get it", so to speak. Aside from you I can't really recall much in the way of anyone thinking he was anything other than town so I have a hard time motivating myself to describe a read which is basically almost a universal one, if that makes sense.

[mastina]

The shitty thing is, it’s going to be yet another game where scum runs a clean, tight ship and is never in serious danger, but the credit goes to Town infighting and disorganization.

I mean.
The game became bullshit once D2 rolled around, so.
Pretty much yeah.

[mastina]

@SS you say it's weird that my push on mastina seems to be based on something that's characteristical from mastina herself and not about her alignment, but you're townreading her. Why? What's town about her?

Literally fucking everything.
What's scum about me?

[mastina]

Mastina's a lot more self-righteous as town. Like as either alignment she'll argue how absolutely. completely. ridiculous. it is that anyone could possibly scumread her, but when she's town she focuses less on reasons and more on the fact that her towniness ought to be self-evident. That and the bodyguard claim doesn't strike me as a scum mastina fakeclaim.

Not quite. Your definition of self-righteousness might be different than mine because to me self-righteousness involves knowing that I have the high ground of me telling the truth, of me not lying, of me having genuineness on my side, and while I do this as both alignments that is a tool that is more beneficial to scumastina.

Additionally, when I am scum there's no "absolutely completely ridiculous someone could possibly scumread me"; as scum, I have a serenity to it because yeah I'm scum, know I'm scum, so can't call something ridiculous when I know it's true--so that? That is something that's actually pretty damn compelling evidence that I am town.

That having been said, the rest of the analysis is in fact accurate--less on the reasons more on the ought to be self-evident, along with bodyguard not being a fucking fakeclaim.

[mastina]

I agree, but I haven't seen her talk as much as I'm used to about godtier scumastina when she's town.

I talk about godtier scumastina when, and ONLY when, someone else mentions it first, pretty much. Or alludes to it at least. Like someone saying "mastina's not this incompetent as town", I might retort "mastina's not this incompetent as scum" for instance.

[mastina]

Yeh I know that's the counterargument but in my recent experience with her (anime uPick is the first one I remember) she uses self meta to defend herself and is usually about scumastina.

And that happens usually after someone has called my towngame as being my scumgame.

Here people haven't really been calling my towngame my scumgame; they've just been saying I'm scum without saying it's my scumgame. Mostly.

It sounds like semantics but the difference is actually pretty damn vital.

[mastina]

Only I think that because of the WIFOM involved in "too scummy to be scum" scum totally can be down to just do it anyway and try to get by off that. And I think that governor is something scum would particularly want to have because it lets them dictate a lynch potentially.

I would lean towards saying that if someone is playing openly anti-town you should just lynch them hard and early every game that they do that in. I see no reason to let someone actively work towards the other team's wincon stay in the game. If you like socialising with them, cool, there are spaces where they can express their personality outside of games in other places in the forum. I think playing like that in game should be punished because it's actively fucking things up for everyone else.

Incidentally, this is the same reason that I think that lolhammers on town should nearly always be lynched the next day. If you don't do it, then scum can get away with doing it because it becomes something to just be shrugged off/tolerated.

In fact, I don't really love that fb has had as much of a pass on this as he's had, the more I think about it. If he's scum, would he potentially not make a deal on the fruit, hide behind the too scummy to be scum/oh that's just fb logic, and then put forward a bunch of town that would be lynchable, knowing that we couldn't lynch him until lylo anyway, and trusting in his ability to stir up paranoia about us losing the game if he's lynched in lylo to try and spin it elsewhere.

:goodposting:

[mastina]

Could he let me know if you make an anti-town outing of your role on D2's just to reduce your lynch equity as town? Because that's a lot of my problem with your slot.

I mean...yes?

It happens in more of my games than it doesn't.

"I wanted town to not know how I died" wtf.

Yes because a bodyguard being town enough to be directly killed is precisely what you want even if the bodyguard ends up dieing from the protection.

[mastina]

also did u notice how mastina switched from wanting me lynched during this governing thing and went for krazy? Do you honestly think that was townie. What was her reasoning? None. She spouted a bunch of nonsense.

I have more than one scumread in this game.

I have only one vote.

No fucking shit I can't vote both of you, that doesn't mean I don't want both of you dead.

If one scumread of mine isn't being voted and the other scumread IS being voted why the fuck wouldn't I switch my vote?

[mastina]

Mastina changed her mind because trying to lynch a governor is handing your scumread a free lynch. That being said, I can't believe you'd ever see this as Rogue One mastina. Mastina makes sense to me.I'd call her my mason buddy but I don't do gambiting anymore

she literally said it was anti town to not lynch the scum governor. then moved when literally no one was listening to her.

Explicitly so, yeah.

That doesn't make my statement any less true, it just means where I am focused is different because contrary to popular belief I am quite capable of pursuing more than one thing at a time. I just can't VOTE more than one thing at a time.

[mastina]

mastina has contradicted herself like a dozen times this game. Which granted isn't like scum indicative. But I am pretty fucking sick of it.

Oh do tell because those contradictions don't fucking exist.

[mastina]

have you done a read list lately Mastina?

I should probably put everything together as a readslist.

Skygazer/Titus
Dannflor
Menalque
xofelf/Something_Smart
GreyIce
Katsuki
Formerfish

Gamma Emerald

MariaR

Iconeum



chennisden
PenguinPower

Pink Ball

popsofctown

the worst


Firebringer


Krazy

About this.

Nobody in the top tier is flipping scum.
I sincerely doubt Gamma is scum.
I'm incredibly doubtful albeit not to the same extent of Gamma that Maria would be scum.

Iconeum is mostly null but is a lean towards nulltown.

Then you get into scumread territory, where chennisden and PenguinPower are leanscum darkhorse candidates for being scum which given that my reads aren't going to be 100% accurate below them probably contains at least one scum.

Pink Ball is the weakest scumread proper because it wasn't until he took a read on me he absolute wouldn't take as town that I had any reason to think he might be scum.
The other scumreads I have talked about extensively; I've literally overnight doubled the size of my iso (no joke, I had exactly 29 posts D1 and exactly 29 posts D2 and now have 150 posts currently) and most of it has been talking about those four so read my content since daystart.
If you click that link, and hit the iso button off of it, it'll work flawlessly because believe it or not I have a single-page iso this game! Yes, really, it's that fucking short. And yet clearly people haven't read it even though they really should.

[mastina]

Think Mastina broke scumrange a little after the despy shot. Her heart bleeds more than half the rest of the game combined.

I broke scumrange on D1.
I broke scumrange at the start of D2.
I broke scumrange literally all of D3.

[mastina]

so i may or may not have mentioned that firebringer is scum right

For what it's worth btw my {tw, PB, pops} scumreads are much weaker now than they were at the beginning of today (real life).

[mastina]

Talk to me about the D1 VCs please. Why do you think LLD was bumrushed through?

I actually did this on D1.

Vote Count 1.17

Flavor

A HAMMER!

Lady Lambdadelta (13): the worst, Katsuki, Krazy, Formerfish, MariaR, Titus, Jjh927, Gamma Emerald, GreyICE, Firebringer, Dannflor,ankamius, popsofctown,
Aristophanes (2): mastina, chennisden,
xofelf (2): Lady Lambdadelta, Aristophanes,
the worst (1): PenguinPower,
chennisden (1): Iconeum,
Jjh927 (1): DrippingGoofball,
Firebringer (1): Chickadee,
Alisae is endorsing: Lady Lambdadelta
Not Voting (4): xofelf, xReckonerx, Menalque, Pink Ball,

Lazy vca, assuming lld flips scum:
The lld wagon is mostly towndriven. Even if every possible scum on the wagon was scum (the worst, Krazy, jjh, pops), it'd still be 9.5/13.5 town voting her. And that is the MAXIMUM number of scum. Far more likely is 1-3, let's say two.

If lld is scum, and if we go with two scum on, that's three off. Possibilities: chennis, Ari, PP, DGB, xofelf, Reck.
Of that grouping, I'd go Ari > PP = xofelf > DGB = Reck = chennis.
On the wagon, of the four possible scum, it'd go:
Krazy > jjh > the worst > pops.

Those ten most likely contain five scum.
The trick lies in finding which five man combo it is.

My guess of guesses: Ari, PP or xofelf lean PP, Krazy, the worst, jjh or pops with outside chance of chennis.

This is just a hypothetical guess as to a coherent scumteam pick tho. It doesn't reflect read strength; read strength and scumteam guesses not being one and the same is a concept I'm not sure how to explain so hopefully you get the idea without me needing to.

Basically, for my reads, refer to my readslist wall post; for the most likely scumteam combo, refer to here; the two aren't identical even though there is significant overlap between the two.

This has changed obv in names, but not in analysis. The possible scum on the LLD wagon are {tw, Krazy, Firebringer, popsofctown}.
The possible scum off the LLD wagon are {chennisden, PenguinPower, PB} outside chance Iconeum.

On the wagon is 2-4. Probably 2 or 3.
Off the wagon is thus 2-4. Probably 2 or 3.
Former group is Krazy > Firebringer > popsofctown = tw. Krazy/Firebringer are probably the scum on the wagon for sure.
Latter group is chennisden = PenguinPower > PB > Iconeum. chennisden and PP are best bets for scum off the wagon.
I am probably townreading someone I shouldn't be, but I'm too tired right now to figure it out.

[mastina]

1) Her claim is a lie

Yes scumastina is a known liar alright.

[mastina]

1) Her claim is a lie

Yes scumastina is a known liar alright.

You like to twist the truth into technicalities a lot.

Yup, sure do.
And the technicality behind claiming fucking bodyguard is...

...What, exactly?




...Sure, I love to twist the truth via technicalities, it's a specialty of mine, but there's some roles which there's nothing you can fucking twist.

[mastina]

See, but I don't care. The flip gives me information and mastina is locked into keeping a conf town alive or she dies. So works for me

I think it is a bad idea for me to commit to protecting our conftown 100%, saying, "yes, I will be locked onto Something_Smart and only SS". While this will keep SS alive, it will also guarantee I don't die.

My preferred approach would be flipping a coin between protecting S_S and, say, GreyICE (to name a possible protection), with the understanding that if I protect the not-S_S option and S_S dies that I eat the lynch.

The coinflip approach at least gives us the chance of keeping Pine on his toes, keeping Pine guessing as to who I'll protect, rather than locking it into a known variable.

If it's left to random chance, then there's a 50% chance I fuck up and Pine gets everything he wants but there's a 50% chance Pine fucks up and town gets everything they want; I consider this probably better than a 100% chance of the status quo being maintained, so unless Ali tells me otherwise that'll be my plan tonight. Literally flip a coin. If heads, protecting Something_Smart; if tails, protecting someone who I think is a probable Pine nightkill.

[mastina]

since when is town consistently making the exact same point over three hundred pages?

Always; since when haven't they?

[mastina]

I'm sorry but why is mastina town?

Because this is my fucking towngame and is literally night and fucking day between my towngame and my scumgame--this is not even remotely similar to ANY scumgame I've played. Go ahead, try and name a scumgame of mine that I've played, compared to this game, and we'll go ahead and dissect it. It'll be transparent as fuck though that the scumastina of that game is NOTHING like the mastina of this game.

[mastina]

Could he let me know if you make an anti-town outing of your role on D2's just to reduce your lynch equity as town? Because that's a lot of my problem with your slot.

Like, it's entirely plausible she's a scum doctor given the game has a vig, especially if the scum is informed there's a town gunsmith.

If I were a doctor I'd be claiming fucking doctor.

I don't change my roleclaim as scum from one role to another.
I don't even change roleblocker into jailkeeper.
I don't even leave out details from my claim.
Literally will claim it almost exactly. The only changes I make are literally alignment-required ones, e.g. changing Disloyal to Loyal out of necessity (because if I claimed Disloyal as scum when being a scum Disloyal, it'd be a scumclaim once my role worked on town, obv).

Doctor-->Bodyguard is in no fucking way shape nor form an alignment-required change.

As anyone can observe, she tells things similar to the truth as scum but skews them, like claiming vig as serial killer etc.

Serial killers aren't scum and never have been. Any third party role is town to me even if they can't win with the town; my stance on this has been widely known and established and is a traceable fact. Try again.

I actually barely discuss mechanics as scum, in fact I think that's one of my bigger weaknesses

Then why have mechanics been one of the things I've most noted about your scumgames.

And you know this given we dropped out of a game where we never actually got anything resembling a grip on the mech of the setup

That was not the issue with that game. There was no "mech" to get a grip on, not really anyway. There was a different problem at hand.

"BLAH BLAH BLAH IN EICN I THOUGHT YOU WERE THE OTHER HEAD"
You keep using that as a whiny piece of shit defense Mastina and you of all people maybe would have recognized that if you're going to fucking scumread me MAYBE you should talk TO me first rather than at me given how AWFUL you read was that game, which YOU YOURSELF admit
So if your read is so fucking awful on me when we're both town, why would you continue to HIDE behind your shitty reads rather than getting better at reading me?

This is not a defense; this is not an accusation; this is nothing but an attempted discredit of me.

Given you know this is my last game on site, there's no fucking way you would be blowing your last game on me with a shit tunnel unless you were scum.

To the contrary: if you think I give a shit, you don't know me at all.

Scum. are. scum.

You are my friend, yes.

But I don't give a shit about a friendship in a game when I am scumreading you. Because if you are scum, then it is my wincon to lynch you, friendship be damned. I have EVERY fucking reason to believe you are scum and none to believe you are town. So last game on site be damned, I don't give a fuck. If you're scum, you need to be lynched, period, end of discussion.

Emotional manipulation like this simply doesn't work on me. I'm too much of an asshole to bend to such appeals. And if you knew ANYTHING about my play you'd know that's why I'm town this game because scumastina is nice, does care, doesn't want to hurt people but as town I don't give a fuck about hurting people, I fucking ate a warning because of my utter lack of care.

That's not changing my narrative, that's observing reality. If you weren't playing lazily and badly in EICN, you would have engaged me enough to figure out which head I was. Saying "I didn't know which head he was" doesn't deny my point, it IS my point

Then your point is flat-out outright wrong because I was neither lazy nor bad in EICN and engaging you more heavily wouldn't have caused me to figure out which head you were unless you flat-out outright said "mastina, you've got the heads backwards". That's literally what it'd have taken for me to have gotten it that game--no engagement level, higher or lower, would've changed my assessment, my guess. The only way I would've gotten it is if you outright told me I had the right idea but was backwards on which head I thought was which. Yet that wasn't lazy; that wasn't bad; that was something which was misguided off of a premise which was mostly correct but which I made a slight miscalculation on.

Which if you've ever played with me you'd know basically exclusively fucking comes from my towngame

Then I repeat. How come I've seen it from you as scum but not really seen it from you as town.

[mastina]

Mastina case on Krazy is all meta, right?

No.

^

[mastina]

I am a little concerned about whether people would be willing to remember and whether our town is strong this game

Try and find the last time the town, who was suspecting scumastina earlier in the game, left her alive to lylo and she endgamed the town.

I mean, I'm sure a game like that exists.
It has to have.
It's got to.

But frankly it must have happened a LONG time ago because frankly I just outright don't remember the last time something like that actually happened? Like...maybe it was Rogue One, long ago. Rogue One was two and a half years ago. January 2017. I legitimately think that might be the last time the scenario you described actually happened, where the town suspected scumastina earlier in the game and I endgamed the town in lylo.

Legit don't think there's a newer scumgame where that has happened.

There's been scumgames where I wasn't suspected and ended up endgaming;
There's been scumgames where I was suspected and ate the lynch.
But I legit don't think there's any newer scumgame than that where I was suspected early and ended up endgaming the town.

It's not a concern because it'll never happen again.

[mastina]

Ok. Pops is scum. Krazy speculating scum doctor also doesn't sit well with me.

Pretty much, yes--he fucking knows me well enough to know that's not a shift in claim I make. I claimed bodyguard because that's my fucking role. He could argue I'm a scum bodyguard (even though that's a troll role and not the sort of role Pine would really want, but I digress), fair enough. It'd be painfully obvious I'm town anyway because this is my towngame through and through, but arguing I'm a scum bodyguard would at least be PLAUSIBLY something scumastina would do even if it's something that self-evidently I didn't do.

Arguing "she could be a scum doctor fakeclaiming bodyguard" is, rather specifically, an argument which appeals to people who don't know me intimately as something that sounds plausible to those who lack extensive mastina knowledge, but which utterly falls apart as so much as a possible narrative to those who have the level of experience with me that Krazy has.

[mastina]

She doesn't have to be scum doctor. But she claimed protective, and

mastina's claims usually have some vestige of truth

.

The problem with this is that my claims don't have

some

vestige of truth; my claims are pretty much almost exclusively 100% the truth.

The closest I've ever gotten to lying about my role is the original MBoS game where I basically claimed responsibility for the worst's action, which I as scum was informed of. (Basically, think like a Janitor claiming the role of someone they cleaned up--the scum knows it won't be counterclaimed and knows the role was in the setup in the manner described so it's a scum safeclaim, pretty much. As an EpicMafia player, obviously, yes, I would claim the role of a person I janitored as a scum janitor so yes, I would make

that

type of lie but that sort of lie would be literally gamethrowing to

not

make, so.)

The closest I've ever gotten to so much as lying about a result is RPG Mafia, where I talked my way out of a guilty result on me by lying about the result I got from my upgraded role after I had the guilty result on me. (Basically, I argued that through some redirection action, I was redirected to roleblock the person who targeted me with a Loyal action, after the guilty had been claimed. I got away with it because the game mod had, legitimately, fucked up on my role result that game so I was able to, legitimately, claim, "the mod only now sent me my result" and that wasn't a lie; I've got the PMs to prove I didn't lie about the mod only later sending the result after the guilty claim, the only lie was in the claimed result which I shifted as to make the guilty not be a guilty but literally any player would do the same thing in my shoes because no fucking duh if you have essentially a cop guilty on you, you try and find the way to craft the result which makes it not a cop guilty.)

There was one game, a Mini, a Normal, where I outright told a lie.
One scumgame, in my entire scum career, where I told an outright falsehood.
Once, and only that once.

All other times my claim has been

exactly

my role.

Not something with "some visage of truth".
Something which was

exactly

true.

Exact role, exact results.
And every scumgame.
I tell my scumbuddies to use their role in a way that is plausibly pro-town when you claim it, even if the target is a target which is a pro-scum target, so that they can plausibly realclaim with truthful results.

[mastina]

I don't really think mastina has been playing like a bodyguard.
I have recently seen someone playing like a bodyguard.

I am playing like a bodyguard and if you saw someone playing bodyguard who WASN'T playing like I am, then it was THEM not playing like a fucking bodyguard, not me.

The thing is.. you should not gloat about having made NK analysis hard for the town as town.

You absolutely should and here's why.
Because if someone dies during the night and the town is continuously reviewing their iso, they are more likely to be critically analyzing it.
If NK analysis is just "oh mastina died due to a successful bg protect and here's who she protected", then they never bat an eye towards my iso again--no critical analysis of it is ever made, they just move on with the game and never look at it again.

Bam.

That simple.

Tell me. Is it better for people to never look at your iso ever again, or is it better for people to always be reviewing your iso and critically analyzing it after you die?

The former happens when NKA is unambiguously "mastina died due to a successful protect"; the latter happens when NKA is hard due to being ambiguous and people being unable to tell if it was a successful protection or just a direct nightkill (even though I personally would know it was a successful protection).

You've never once answered me on this point in spite of this being, what, the fourth time I've brought it up?

[mastina]

@Ali, The game appears to be devolving into two camps. Agree or disagree?

The game's been in two camps ever since D1 when the LLD debate began; I called it a distraction scum wanted then and it has continued every day phase since then, divided up to be...well, just about the same players on both sides pretty much as was on D1.

[mastina]

All of the wagons approved by Fire are on high contention reads.

I think we should just ignore the governor, and if Fire uses it we just lynch him the next day.

I mean.
Pretty much, yeah.