Mini 1997: The Clownspiracy (Game Over!)

[Raskolnikov]

hamburger beef
cheeseburger gamma
double cheeseburger wh4t
triple cheeseburger rask
mcdouble kokichi
bacon mcdouble kiana
big mac maki
egg mcmuffin kaito
sausage mcgriddles bujaber
quarter pounder with cheese brassherald
chicken mcnuggets archwing
mcchicken cedrick
filet-o-fish stefanB

fries : scum
hasbrowns : scummy
apple pie: towny
mcflurry : town

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: maki

[Raskolnikov]

big mega FOS:

gamma emerald

[Raskolnikov]

WTF don't self-fos you troll. get blacklisted
suggest policy FOS: gamma

[Raskolnikov]

maybe you're a miller because you're scum :thinkyface:

[Raskolnikov]

why isnt zach in this game

[Raskolnikov]

Scared I'll beat you as scum once again Rask? Don't worry you should be.

hey you got lynched last time i think... how long ago was that

[Raskolnikov]

don't you do that anyways

[Raskolnikov]

I'm that clown from that stupid show Kaito probably watches I believe it's called the Simpsons

I don't

why isnt zach in this game

It didn't call to him

why is kaito so terse was he always like this early and i never noticed

[Raskolnikov]

now I want to see kokichi having a conversation with maki

[Raskolnikov]

i think it's best to ignore the claim for now, vote was rvs

[Raskolnikov]

Players:

03. Maki Harukawa
06. Kokichi Oma

ya i know

say, gamma, would you say your meta has changed significantly in the past 4 months or not?

[Raskolnikov]

fair enough
i dont even think about solving until like most people have posted but my definition of trying to solve might be a little more extreme

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: Beefster

I think you may be rolefishing while trying to make it look like it's not serious.
But if you aren't serious that's an interesting place to put a non-serious/rvs vote given the VC

[Raskolnikov]

am open to explanation though
also would be interested in hearing your reads (I realise maybe you are still reading though)

[Raskolnikov]

I expect this will confuse people so I'll pre-emptively clarify
asking about something straight up like people are with maki is okay (or well probably nai imo) because it's brave and you get attention, but approaching it like semi serious is a little concerning to me

[Raskolnikov]

I don't see any reason why loved miller wouldn't be a possible thing, though there's obviously scum motivation for claiming milller too idk if being genuinely loved would influence claiming that
potentially loved implies a low power role and so more comfortable to claim miller with
I think the queue post had that mafia have fakeclaims so given that it's possible that's even actually the town role pm (miller) if scum but town miller would obviously claim miller anyways
at the same time given that I think role specing in general is kind of bad in this scenario because presumably the roles aren't even dictated that much by align if that's how the setup is (don't have enough theme experience tbh)

Okay I think mafia wouldn't fakeclaim miller out of the blue because they'd risk being counterclaimed or otherwise made to look bad if there was a town miller, so tldr either it's in her role pm or her fake claim (basically just have to dayplay it)

[Raskolnikov]

No it's in post 2

[Raskolnikov]

wh4t and arch are doing gods work btw but I'm not sure on gamma yet (and pressure doesnt necessarily help me sort him any faster either but I'm also hoping to do it via meta if I can get back up to speed there)

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btw never lynch wh4t this game.

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wait a second, why is no one weighing in on beefster

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claiming miller first post is standard/expected play for miller so saying maki is odd for doing it is baseless shade (alternatively, he doesn't know about or didn't see it brought up, but that'd also be eeeh as it means he didnt do due diligence)

also pure role focus wrt what he said to me and then talking about maki and nothing else is not a good sign

[Raskolnikov]

I said I was gonna lie low but fuck sakes.

I’m more interested in you saying you were going to intentionally lay low. My opinion of you of a player has dropped because it’s never acceptable to lay low. It’s actually pretty scummy.

Disagree. I think that sentence is actually very unlikely to come from scum as they would be very self conscious talking about something if it was their scum strategy (in this case laying low) because of a guilty mind.

[Raskolnikov]

hey koki. you claimed not town? wanna talk about it?

Don't put words in my mouth.

VOTE: Arch

kokichi impressions of the game?

[Raskolnikov]

everyone's fighting each other, but atm I'd like reads on the table from people who haven't put weighed in so much atm before narrowing focus too hard.

[Raskolnikov]

I figured out why this game feels a little weird. Usually there's both scumhunting and townhunting/cohesion, but here it's like all scumhunting.

[Raskolnikov]

Maki I'm 60% sure beef was rolefishing me can you vote with me.

[Raskolnikov]

I figured out why this game feels a little weird. Usually there's both scumhunting and townhunting/cohesion, but here it's like all scumhunting.

I still like my town reads. I'll add Kokichi to the pile too. I was tempted to add Arch, but I'm more hesitant now.

What do you make of Archwing's behaviour on this page?

Pedit isn't rolefishing based on role titles virtually impossible in a non-breakable set-up?

Really like arch pressuring half the playerbase and his being it feels pretty upfront, though there's a minor thing with his tone/emotion I'm not sure about.

I'm not going to speculate this.

[Raskolnikov]

bah humbug.

[Raskolnikov]

Some people are way too eager and it feels fake.

Can you be more specific

[Raskolnikov]

What do you make of arch backing down and conceding the points though

[Raskolnikov]

He's pretty frenetic and I'm sure if his strength of emotions were justified, but why would he rile everyone up against him as scum either.

[Raskolnikov]

*I'm not sure if his strength of emotions were justified

[Raskolnikov]

Mmm.

[Raskolnikov]

Every once in a while, my RVS vote lands in a good place. Rask is a good option. Panicking from 3 votes on him? Survivalist. Posting cryptic reads? Misleading. Expecting reads on page 4? Tryhard.

Idk I feel like this is misrepping me.

[Raskolnikov]

bah humbug.

Mmm, so it's a little embarrassing but I did misread/misunderstood something and did maybe overreact about the rolefishing.
That being said I still think beefster could easily flip scum here for his approach, although if literally no one shares that read idk.

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: maki

This is the most nonsense vote I've ever seen. Why Maki? And why are you happy about it?

Huge FoS on Raskol

rvs, and we have some history

I know this is supposed to be serious but I just think kiana being like yandere protective and triggered on any maki votes

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: Beefster

I think you may be rolefishing while trying to make it look like it's not serious.
But if you aren't serious that's an interesting place to put a non-serious/rvs vote given the VC

This is very very selective considering that StefanB did even more scummy rolefishing earlier on but you didn't even say a word about him. I'm adding more scumpoints to your debt.

I don't think what stefan did was really interesting, but at the same time I'm not defending a null

[Raskolnikov]

btw never lynch wh4t this game.

Wh'/?

Is it because you have knowledge that he is town because you are scum? It really seems like it. I am townreading Wh4t, but I cannot see anybody ever being so confident about a townread on Page 4, unless they are scum and know it for a fact.

Big scumpoints.

I mean, you could like, ask about the read but okay MASSIVE scumpoints.

[Raskolnikov]

Do you not find suspicious the fact that Raskol scumreads Beefster for asking about Ronald Mcdonald but turns a blind eye to Stefan (coincidentally, a scumread of mine too) who blatantly rolefishes for both flavour and role?

Okay, so this is actually showing some level of thinking. Stefan's reaction made more sense in the moment and he was very upfront. Beefster asked in joking way wrt me and like put bullshit shade on maki for being miller.

[Raskolnikov]

I don't think what stefan did was really interesting, but at the same time I'm not defending a null

To clarify he was null at the time, I actually feel he's solving since

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: Rask

don't let me down beef

this is sheeping or?

[Raskolnikov]

@Gamma

, reads?

[Raskolnikov]

Want maki and kaito's take on this too.

[Raskolnikov]

He's pretty frenetic and I'm *not sure if his strength of emotions were justified, but why would he rile everyone up against him as scum either.

Also I want everyone voting arch to comment on this, either I'm wrong or you're wrong. The only scum motivation I can think of for being that aggro is to try to look powertown but even so jumping on so many people is ehh.

Yeah nah I have a bigger issue with misreps and whatnot. Actually bu and stef could attest I fucked up with regards to that in our last mini normal.

This too makes it feel like his things might not be so ai either.

[Raskolnikov]

kokichi, maki and kaito are all themed the same and I think that started from a danganronpa theme game. Maki and kaito are well known/revealed alts, kokichi it looks like is a main otoh
I have some history with maki but it's a little old since I took a break, I also have a little less with kaito (even in those games he seemed to stick to his hydra pt?) and kokichi (and gamma too but thats it)
kiana mainly connects to just maki I think, I've never played with her though

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: Rask

don't let me down beef

this is sheeping or?

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: kiana

Was going to wait for response first but I have mixed feelings on arch wagon.
Feels like overexaggerating reads and really trying to get hard judgments where it doesn't feel realistic. There is some complexity to her credit but I'm not feeling it as genuine.

[Raskolnikov]

Would like to see response and more info still though.

[Raskolnikov]

maki when you caught up kiana read

[Raskolnikov]

I'm actually also still open to beefster wagon if literally anyone cared too. My initial read was partially a mistake but I think 212 is also scum storytelling/casing. But at this point probably just looks like tunneling and no one will take it seriously.

[Raskolnikov]

Kaito

maki

[Raskolnikov]

Kaito

troll or srs

[Raskolnikov]

does kaito have a new meta where activity is 100% alignment indicative for him?

[Raskolnikov]

Maki, Ras, Wh4t, everyone else who pops up:
What do you think about Gammas reaction to the whole think?
Scum not paying attention/misinterpretting this or town who sees thinks differently.

Thanks that is helpful re Kokichi.

I can kinda see how gamma sees it
More importantly I feel this is town gamma in general but that's a personal/experience read

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: kiana

Was going to wait for response first but I have mixed feelings on arch wagon.
Feels like overexaggerating reads and really trying to get hard judgments where it doesn't feel realistic. There is some complexity to her credit but I'm not feeling it as genuine.

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: beefster
Phoneposting but this guy is 1000% fake

[Raskolnikov]

You are making a show of everything you are doing.

[Raskolnikov]

I made one error in judgment, your entrance wasn't as AI as it seemed because of a faulty assumption I shouldn't get into (240).

Right now your posting is hard pinging me. I really feel like it's manufactured content...

[Raskolnikov]

Okay though. Is it normal for you to talk like this?
Like it's so storytelly.

[Raskolnikov]

Why do you have a problem with arch vote sheeping you

[Raskolnikov]

A lot happened since my last post...

Rask is still as confusing as ever. Arch is looking more suspicious for some reason.

Why am I confusing, of all things?

[Raskolnikov]

Hey, I was waiting if kiana would spec that.

[Raskolnikov]

Rask, now that you've seen Maki and Kokichi interact, what are your thoughts?

Beyond a prob not teamed not too too much. Kokichi is better though. Maki reads are kinda ???

[Raskolnikov]

You know, I wouldn't go as far as saying kiana arch is cleared because arch put kiana low in his list and kiana voted arch. If anything kiana had more reasons to vote me.

[Raskolnikov]

Actually you know what. Scum probably isn't all pushing me to various degrees.

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: Kiana

[Raskolnikov]

Okay though. Is it normal for you to talk like this?
Like it's so storytelly.

At home now, it is normal >__>

[Raskolnikov]

Kiana is so over the top I almost feel she might be trolling, but there's no motivation for it.

[Raskolnikov]

Congratulations, your scumpoints have been doubled. It proves that I'm right on the mark.

What's the maximum number of scumpoints?

[Raskolnikov]

Scumpoints to you for this bad vote. Why would I ask questions to my scumreads if I know they're already scum? I don't see a need. Why are you protecting Raskol anyhow. That's bonus scumpoints for you. You're taken off the townreads list.

Hmmmmm

[Raskolnikov]

I don't really want to tell you my reads.

[Raskolnikov]

It would be, but oh well. What are you going to do about it?

[Raskolnikov]

boooooo

[Raskolnikov]

@arch
would you be willing to vote kiana with me?

[Raskolnikov]

@arch
would you be willing to vote kiana with me?

Mate, I really do not care if my scumreads vote on me. Weird that you have to make an exaggerated theatric to publically call for your buddy to vote me, that suggests scum do not have daytalk. That makes the game easier for us, I guess.

I'm not your mate, buddy.

[Raskolnikov]

@arch
would you be willing to vote kiana with me?

wat

Why are you rallying for someone who is voting you to sheep you?

I'd like to see where arch stands on me vs kiana since we're his two biggest scumreads.

[Raskolnikov]

@Kiana make a post/case summarizing your scumreads. You'll say "why would I listen to you" but town!you should have motivation if you want others to actually follow with you if you really believe everything you say.

[Raskolnikov]

Maki is kind of voting vanity, I thought she'd engage more with kiana about what she's doing given their relationship.

[Raskolnikov]

No, your ISO doesn't make much of a distinction between technicalities and major things wrt how they factor into a read.

[Raskolnikov]

You can have one read, with major and minor components to that read. Saying that doesn't downplay anything, that's how reads things work. Your ISO doesn't make a distinction with how all the scattered statements piece together, so I'm asking for case/summary. Even if you think I'm scum, you should accept that it's how you'd get other people to see where you are coming from and convince them.

[Raskolnikov]

Gamma actions make sense for someone looking at kiana arch through a locked TvS spec.

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: arch

I've been upside down on this but I think occam's razor says maybe this is just scum. Play has fell off a cliff from earlygame tbh.

[Raskolnikov]

I think at least 2 scum are in {Kiana beefster arch maki}, maki - kiana can't be teamed though.

[Raskolnikov]

I've been considering it for a while, though I wanted to give kiana wagon a run first since I'd rather do that.

[Raskolnikov]

Call it premature, but I don't think it's happening at this point. Wh4t is off, cedrick is off, and gamma is going onto kokichi. I think people are going to wagon gamma next and I don't really want that either.

[Raskolnikov]

Beef maki might be a team.

[Raskolnikov]

*teamed

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: Kokichi
this beef or brass ty

Is this for his entrance thing still?

[Raskolnikov]

I think the strongest negative interactions aren't even fighting or voting (which good scum do to distance) but kind of personal actions and minor things if that makes sense, maki and kiana's small interactions feel too natural for scum to fake and scum don't even have much incentive to fake things that most people wouldn't even care about (scum would just distance a more expected way I think).

[Raskolnikov]

brassherald has requested replacement.

When you have time can we get a vc mydude, thanks.

[Raskolnikov]

Kaito is voting for arch btw.

Misclick fixed, thanks.

[Raskolnikov]

That is my feeling. 3rd can easily be a misread though.

[Raskolnikov]

@BuJaber

[Raskolnikov]

Kinda at the point where I want a flip now tbh.

[Raskolnikov]

I had a dream that I was a muffler last night. I woke up exhausted!"

Wh4. Anytime you want explain this weird read you have on me go right ahead. You came in with some weird obsession. You backed off when I made you look bad and now it’s back.

Tunneling me is hazardous to your health, especially when you don’t have any reason to. You’ve been obsessed with me and it’s super scummy.

He's kept a scumread on you but idk if I'd call it tunneling or obsession when he's talked about other people way the same or more.

Do you think scumreading voting without catching up is that far fetched or is this still about the rvs stuff?

[Raskolnikov]

Like he really was implying that if kian got lynched when i was on v/la it would somehow be my responsibility. What kind of BS is that?

Eeeeeh I think it would be at least partially tbh, though responsibility is a bit of loaded when kiana's probscum anyways...

[Raskolnikov]

Cedrick need your thoughts on arch vs kiana ATM way more than anything else.

[Raskolnikov]

Arch l-2 kiana l-4 by my count.

I'll probably switch if you vote kiana, btw.

[Raskolnikov]

Plus if he’s actually town it’s no big loss for us since he’s not playing very good.

Please please try not to let things like this influence your thought processes >__>

[Raskolnikov]

For reference, I'm trying to be detached here but at least a little bit of kiana giving me the equivalent of "fuck you scum die" whenever I tried to engage her still bleeds into my judgment in a way I can't fully separate (which is also kinda why I'm not being as stubborn as I could be tbh) >____>

[Raskolnikov]

Stance on arch and kiana wagons, if you will.

[Raskolnikov]

Maki thoughts on hiraki specifically since he replaced brass?

[Raskolnikov]

Not against beefster but don't really want to leave this weird me-kiana-arch triangle going into d2 tbh and idk how I feel about the vote flurry that happened since it went down to arch or kiana as the lynch choices.

[Raskolnikov]

Yeah I was going to say something about that but thought better about posting it...

[Raskolnikov]

Two of us can l-2 her especially if you're townreading arch gamma.

[Raskolnikov]

@gamma

[Raskolnikov]

No, that in particular is NAI because she talked about it even in a postgame, but I still want her dead. Suit yourself though.

[Raskolnikov]

Yeah I'm going to assume if you accuse RC of it you may just have tendency to be trigger happy accusing people of it in general.

[Raskolnikov]

despite calling what I'm getting upset about NAI you're trying to appeal to me still.

Wait why is trying to get people to vote with me a bad thing?

[Raskolnikov]

If Gamma was after lynching Kiana with no question asked, Ras offer would have been easy.
So that was pretty townie.

Also and maybe more importantly would lock rule out gamma kiana here based on their exchange so gamma is kind of good for either.

Idk gamma said he thinks arch is a mislynch and had scumread kiana so I don't know why asking if he'd switch is bad, I guess it looks like AtE because of the timing but that statement wasn't supposed to be the justification for it because it's something I was going to suggest anyways.

[Raskolnikov]

Kiana vs Arch vs Beef

Kiana

I've responded to many of kiana's points either directly or indirectly and saw no thought process from her regarding it. Without responding to me when I also try to engage her it's impossible to judge how realistic her coming to her conclusions are because her points system gives scumpoints on like rvs and having different reads but especially how important each individual thing she points out is relative to each other if that makes sense. See 481 483. The part that makes me think scum over town is tone

doesn't seem sincere

, in especially 399 and basically most of page 17

I really get the impression she knows the things she's saying don't really all make sense but she still pushes them anyways

as serious reads and there's no way town does it this long. I genuinely get a tongue-in-cheek vibe and think it might be from scum enjoying knowing what she's getting away with. In her other games she is stubborn but her reads at least look sensible, I see her at least acknowledging some level of chance she isn't right and if anything she seems more townhunt-first then elimination than her approach to this game.

The only thing is, this is a messy read because the way she talks to her null and townreads isn't terrible and the other thing that I know she will infinitunnel reads which I know at least one of is wrong (me), though if realistically if kiana was town I think she'd probably be right on arch which makes it kind of an awkward choice for me (OTOH I was kinda paranoid speccing a s/s possibility because I thought it was a little weird arch was voting me over her given wasn't doing anything it doesn't seem too too likely in retrospect).

Arch

Thought he had okay activity early in general and thought 70 was kinda protown to mention about brassjaber (I mean unless it's partner defending but they're exchange wrt brass meta don't really look partnery and I don't sr brass/hiraki). The thing is arch addressing brass cedrick then kokichi then the random bujaber thing is really aggressive but the scum motivation to getting all the attention on him too isn't clear either. But then, from all that there aren't much reads or judgments, he rescinded his statements on kochiki and cedrick and kind of stopped doing anything. TBH I don't like just how much he justifies everything based on reactions/information/wagoninfo/creating discussion, it looks not unusual for his style but him bringing up just so many times when it also kind of defeats the purpose is strange. And it could it just be really bad timing but the fadeaway lurk after being a focus of the game is kind of a scum thing too though imo. Stuff like vote on me the basis of beef (kind of putting the responsibility on him) and not seeming to sort much in general isn't great; I would

expect more conclusions coming from all of his exchanges

but he had even in his (midgame) readlist stated no one was beyond a slight townlean.
The thing is his kiana read is actually I think justified and I can see from town in the position but also aren't necessarily hard points to make after everyone else did (and the initial townread was eh).

Tbh I've been warming up to this more recently since the wagon has kind of been stalling and I'm not really seeing town-arch justification or reasons brought up for it either but idk how confbiasy that's being.
It's weird because I almost have more of a feeling arch will flip scum than how much I directly scumread him if that makes any sense.

Beefster

This is more like typical lurky nullscum. Entrance isn't as bad as I first thought it was (read 240) but still don't townread it. Posting style had read super scummy for being showy and kinda self-conscious when I saw it too but skimmed him and he does just like talk like that so that was kinda nai too (372 395)... In general get the feeling he's been

staying on the sidelines this game and not doing much this could flip scum

though if it doesn't it also kind of tells us nothing and we'll essentially repeat d1 I think so eeeh. The thing is when a lot of his reads are claimed gut or explainable it's really hard to judge their realism or take it any further either... His arch kiana stance just saying there's scum on both wagons is kinda useless shadey when he doesn't narrow it down or get into specifics. Would easily lynch this over like the rest of the players.

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: Kiana
I'd rather lynch this than anything else tbh

[Raskolnikov]

No, but the way you did it felt like "hey this person is annoying you why don't you lynch them instead of working out your problems?"

Btw responded to this in 739, if you believe me or not whatever.

[Raskolnikov]

Mmm. Did some blind meta on hiraki since his posting has been looking pretty OTT and actually got 7/7, which itself has to be to some extent luck as I was on the fence on most of the guesses but I think I MIGHT have some feel on him. Also looked at what the game gamma mentioned and don't know what he means unless the vibes he mentions are the aggressive/aggrefensiveness in general which is pretty baseline imo.

It's still maybe too early to call, sample size this game isn't too too large (and non-personal meta itself not always reliable beyond just finding what's stylstic) but I'm leaning on the t side of things here. The main stance on kiana isn't too different from my own thinking, it's the reactions to being scumread which were kinda concerning (since I was liking brass slot earlier) but think he's probably not scum atm.

Would also spec against brass-arch for mostly their conversation on arch mentioning brass meta, this being important as it meaning hiraki coming in and choosing kiana over arch I don't think is a cwy thing. If assuming it's not busvote (not thinking that) usually the implication then (if town is lead wagon and you come in as scum and vote elsewhere) is dodging/going against the lynch for appearance sake but hiraki put arch as his 2nd scumread and semi commits to being open to compromising so that's not really in line with that motivation. Granted this is all based on that initial speculation though and is more of a side note than anything else.

[Raskolnikov]

Beefster ICYMI I'd like you to be more specific on your judgments in 691.

[Raskolnikov]

I want to lynch kiana beef or arch here, if we lynch someone I'm not scumreading and it's wrong I really don't learn much assuming I'm still around.

[Raskolnikov]

Not non-informative just not as useful to me personally, if you lynch any scumread and it's wrong at least it makes you reconsider things and helps you try to poe.

[Raskolnikov]

Can we lynch this already.

She's only giving super selective read progression, she didn't find anything in the past while or so from me especially or archwing, her claimed strongest scumreads, interesting or worth commenting on?

[Raskolnikov]

Maybe if someone wants to ask her on my behalf to resummarise/case her strongest reads in one post and if/how she genuinely believes all scum are pushing for her lynch since she stopped responding to my posts a while ago.

[Raskolnikov]

end of page 25,

koki is annoying, but sadly he's town.

wh4t looks pretty bad.

Hikari's entrance is good, but i'm null reading

for the moment.

Also can you go into these a bit because the conclusions don't really seem to follow,
these aren't as severe as "dont like kiana's intro but probtown" (which i still dont really understand) but still mystifying.

If I say something's good I think of it in a t/s sense but are you meaning something as good vs bad as pro/anti-town then giving a read on it?

[Raskolnikov]

Mmm can kokichi be l-1 instead just in case?

Kokichi would you do it?

[Raskolnikov]

UNVOTE:
Sorry, IDK if site meta on this changed or if I have a misconception of highest EV play but I'm not quite so confident on flip as to lynch without a claim

[Raskolnikov]

I feel kinda disgusted insisting on this for kiana tbh but I'm still not on the like ~>80% threshold where I'd probably say fuck it

[Raskolnikov]

Yeah but kokichi said he'd hammer at l-1

[Raskolnikov]

Ideally he should either be voting or we treat this as l-2 with two intents

[Raskolnikov]

I have to make a thread in mafia discussion on this postgame because every time I've insisted people hated it but I think it's strictly higher percentage d1

[Raskolnikov]

I also used to insist on dragging out every single day until right before deadline expired because "more information and stances is always better than less" but that was kinda cancer

[Raskolnikov]

What's a higher percentage?

I think given how unreliable d1 lynching is (lowest %) and how bad it would be to lynch a pr without claim (d1 that risk has highest impact) highest +EV/ExpectedValue % is always to get claim
but I've taken hiatuses and even originally I think I got that from people I really respect (it might have been nachomamma or plotinus I can't remember) like over a year ago and probably should revisit and see how right it is either in general or in today's meta

The last time this kind of thing came up I was lynching gamma emerald who had site access issues which made it so he couldn't post and people wanted to lynch him and I only accepted when looked at his ISO and thought even if he was town he'd have to have been VT with his behaviour (also hard metascumread him there, he was scum and we lynched partner for win next day)

[Raskolnikov]

Ooooooooooooo

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: Beefster

have to reconsider some things tomorrow

[Raskolnikov]

there's something so ironic about kiana claiming vig though

I guess it makes some level of sense, why she's not pushing to lynch arch or me and just trying to stay alive which was starting to looking scummy.

[Raskolnikov]

Vig is never scum in normal games afaik, I pretty much joined this setup because it said it was balanced like a normal game, vig fakeclaim is almost unheard of

Even if maf got a vig card as their town card they would have to have their role changed, in that case claiming vig still ???

[Raskolnikov]

Mostly though the play kind of matches, stop pushing on your hardest scumreads, ignoring them when they talk to you... if you can shoot em dead anyways why not
and the switch focus to REALLY defensive play and trying to talk anyone and almost everyone out of pushing onto you...

[Raskolnikov]

Lol read the last page.

[Raskolnikov]

@Beef other than wh4t who would you lynch atm and why.

[Raskolnikov]

Fuck I was feeling kind of smug about my insisting for the claim tbh.

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: kiana

[Raskolnikov]

UNVOTE:
Actually can't you both just shoot each other

[Raskolnikov]

Wait why even claim why not just shoot her

[Raskolnikov]

VOTE: kiana

[Raskolnikov]

Don't care, do this whenever it comes up and people always hate it :^)

[Raskolnikov]

cause I am shooting wht4 like I said.

I think this is a bad shot btw.

[Raskolnikov]

It's just weird because vig fakeclaim is bad because you go "oops I guess I got roleblocked or it healed" and hope people believe you for each shot
or I guess you do+claim the scum kill and then say "oh the real scum kill probably got blocked or protected".

But if the goal was really to get the vig CC because maf suspect there is vig via their own roles (like kokichi implies) I guess it makes sense.

[Raskolnikov]

What happened to "Kiana's play makes sense for a vig" Rask?

Not over cedrick

[Raskolnikov]

To note, this ignores if there's a possibility of 2 vigs.

Would that even pass normal review (which this game semi went through)?

[Raskolnikov]

Yeah fakeclaiming vig is really unusual, but fake counterclaiming vig I think is almost an impossibility imo, there's not even scum motivation for it because he wasn't under like any pressure.

[Raskolnikov]

Cedrick crumbs vig multiple times too and maybe most more importantly of all I was actually townreading prior to this.

[Raskolnikov]

I could see a {Kiana, Beef, Kaito/Kokichi} team here. I was townreading kokichi but if kiana is scum it doesn't look as good for him.

I think wh4t was probably right earlier on kiana arch being unlikely though idk how good at interactions kiana would be whether to hard rule it. Revisiting feel kiana/maki is also still pretty unlikely but I might have jumped the gun(lol) in full ruling it out either given this is maria we're talking about.
Bujaber I think over-defended kiana for them to be partners if that makes any sense at all, pretty are for scum to purposely act in that way in my (moderate?)experience.

[Raskolnikov]

Rask-Kiana ultrabusbuddies confirmed

[Raskolnikov]

Cedrick crumbs vig multiple times too and maybe most more importantly of all I was actually townreading prior to this.

Yeah you're going to have to point all those out

Dude ISO him and ctrl f "vig" and "shoot"

[Raskolnikov]

Nah I signed up to this game mostly because it was confirmed to be 10:3 which meant I actually would have some clue when it came to role spec.

PTSD from alisae's games

[Raskolnikov]

viewtopic.php?p=9984010#p9984010

queue post for this game

[Raskolnikov]

You think Beef is scum with me after his posts about me earlier

I think beef alone could be with almost anyone (maybe not wh4t or gamma), mostly same with kaito tbh (only thing less unlikely w/ arch). Part of the merit to a beef lynch, which I was considering if day continued before all this.
I'd consider kaito before you in this ftr, and at this moment guessing third scumpartner is actually low priority anyways and partially for bragging rights if correct.

[Raskolnikov]

It's not 50-50 because counterclaiming when not under pressure (for arguably no benefit if scum) is strictly better than claiming because you're under danger of being hammered

and it's not 50-50 unless you read cedrick and kiana the exact same but I don't, kiana was way scummier and cedrick also crumbed a bunch. Do you townread kiana and scumread cedrick gamma?

[Raskolnikov]

Gamma and maki not really speculating the actual alignments in this is weird imo.

[Raskolnikov]

If you scumread kiana and townread cedrick that wouldn't affect your thinking?

[Raskolnikov]

I didn't say you did, I'm asking.

[Raskolnikov]

You really don't lean one way or another on this?

[Raskolnikov]

Yeah people saying it's 50-50 because its 2 claims is kind of false equivalence/overly simplistic, kiana claiming because she was under direct lynch threat is very different from cedrick counterclaiming under no pressure (and when cedrick crumbed).

[Raskolnikov]

I'm appointing wh4t as my representative here in the event that I die btw, he's more or less me here apart from that.

[Raskolnikov]

@Cedrick

I could see a {Kiana, Beef, Kaito/Kokichi} team here. I was townreading kokichi but if kiana is scum it doesn't look as good for him.

I think wh4t was probably right earlier on kiana arch being unlikely though idk how good at interactions kiana would be whether to hard rule it. Revisiting feel kiana/maki is also still pretty unlikely but I might have jumped the gun(lol) in full ruling it out either given this is maria we're talking about.
Bujaber I think over-defended kiana for them to be partners if that makes any sense at all, pretty are for scum to purposely act in that way in my (moderate?)experience.

There's a few others I haven't mentioned like gamma (don't think so based on their aggressive exch) but I personally would look at someone like beef next tbh.
If hiraki then he'd be hardbussing on replace entrance and I'm not feeling it because he could have easily saved her by switching vote at any point

[Raskolnikov]

Hey can people not soft unnecessarily please.

[Raskolnikov]

Too late, what are your thoughts? Is anyone strongly scum enough to you?

1145
I'd personally just shoot beef but if I absolutely couldn't I guess maybe kaito or kokichi (or maybe even maki but she talked pretty naturally with kiana for partners).

[Raskolnikov]

Kiana claimed 2 shot vig also both players essentially say they can shoot n1.

[Raskolnikov]

How many fakeclaims have you seen wh4t?

[Raskolnikov]

Too many. Literally about 5. I've also fake claimed myself.

I used to think it was good because "more complicated roles would require more creativity from scum so likely to be town" but it's been my own experience that scum prefer to claim weakened or modified roles.

[Raskolnikov]

Cedrick if you keep waving your gun around like this you might trigger more people to soft whether they're okay dying or not (which is kinda bad), just keep it in mind please.

[Raskolnikov]

beef >>> kaito/maki/kokichi imo

[Raskolnikov]

Eh until pretty recently cedrick just said he'd just be shooting you though.

[Raskolnikov]

You self-hammering nincompoop.

What have you done? Lynch yourself? My, reading capabilities have been proven to be leagues above yours, so if you would refrain from being condescending to newbies, maybe you can improve.

Instead of whining about how your inferiority complex gets triggered by me when I only joined this site much later than you.

No, you are the one who should screw off. I am trying out a new system and you are taking a dump on it with unconvincing arguments. I am not sure if you are anti-newbie or anti-women or are upset that one with both of those traits can be better than you but all I know is you are getting in my way and playing anti-town.

With your own method you get pocketed by scum who are both pushing the same agenda as you and not pushing the same agenda as you. At least I can say my method is better on this front. I mentioned I only awards points for thinking similarly if they had the thought before I could state it, which is okay, but you should go find that evidence for yourself instead of making me doing busywork for you. I am not your little bitch. It is very obvious from my previous posts which you are clearly not reading. I don't know if you are not reading because you are stubborn, lazy, bad at reading, or just plain scum. Unfortunately three of those options are town-possible and only one is scum. Unfortunately again, only way I can maintain my sane respect for you is if you are the latter.

[Raskolnikov]

I can't help it it's too funny. It's like a monologue that a supervillain would say.

[Raskolnikov]

It's like the navy seal copypasta.

[Raskolnikov]

Jesus christ she's scum just lynch her. Cedrick is 100% vig here for crumbing and no-pressure CC, he did not fakecrumb in advance to fakeCC. and I'm not seriously entertaining the possibility of there being 2 town vigs here, in a confirmed 10:3 game that's potentially swingy AF; if allowed to shoot it, 2 vigs even if they shoot 2 town would become 2 confirmed town, not realistic balance and that's not even considering shots on scum.
More importantly kiana was scummy as fuck and started straight up ignoring me when I asked her to clarify her positions and later cased her, as odd as the vig claim if she seriously thinks she can sell the idea of 2 vigs existing it even makes sense. If I'm wrong (I'm not) I'll take 100% of the responsibility for this wagon, I don't care.

[Raskolnikov]

2 vigs is OP as fuck from a setup view because 90% of the time they wouldn't claim d1 and going into d2 you'd have 2 conftowns even if both shot town. Because vigs generally shoot scummy targets they also wouldn't be likely to be protected.

[Raskolnikov]

Cross shot doesn't work since cedrick claimed because scum having at least 1 shot of roleblock is (if not a roleblocker/x shot rb then on a 1 shot on a JOAT) common, way moreso than the scum BP or scum doctor spec.

[Raskolnikov]

Cedrick-scum has motivation to CC, obviously. Mislynch me for a free PR lynch day 1, and avoid having his teammate shot tonight and also potentially having the risk of his teammate being lynched Day 1. If I get lynched today it's a guaranteed benefit to hypothetical Cedrick-scum, but if town does the right thing and allows us to self-resolve it, who will get lynched, maybe a teammate, all bets are off.

If you're claiming he has no scum motivation you are either blind or scum wanting my mislynch then going to mislynch him tomorrow.

He crumbed vig multiple times, and CC'd without any pressure on him. Are you arguing he'd put those crumbs in advance just in case he'd feel like fakeCCing a vig claim?

Also from MYPOV if you're town you're likely to shoot town anyways in me so scum would and should just let you.

[Raskolnikov]

You haven't answered the scum motivation of why I would claim vig to get cc'd instead of doc or cop if I were scum. At least if Doc or Cop CCs me it's more valuable than a vig which people said is negative utility.

I don't know, it is a strange claim for scum but the simplest and most likely explanation here. Assuming optimal play from scum isn't always reliable.

[Raskolnikov]

Now Cedrick is 100% vig? Sounds very suspicious, I remember earlier you said I was definitely the vig because the my playstyle fits my role... so that wasn't crumbing either? Or are you just wanting the fastest lynch as you had all game.

When you weren't CC'd the possibility of you fakeclaiming wasn't really worth considering.

[Raskolnikov]

He crumbed vig multiple times, and CC'd without any pressure on him. Are you arguing he'd put those crumbs in advance just in case he'd feel like fakeCCing a vig claim?

So? Scum were given their original town role pms that were created before they rolled scum. Your arguments are nonsense, even if I think Cedrick is town and you are the scum here.

What are you getting at in this? Are you implying cedrick could've been scum who got a vig role pm as their town role pm and that's why he'd crumb and CC it?

[Raskolnikov]

This is AtE as fuck btw.

[Raskolnikov]

Except my contention is in designing the setup he wouldn't put 2 vig rolecards to begin with, because it'd be awful if both landed town, but one would have to be changed anyways if it does to scum (being another role) so literally the only reason you put 2 is for so 2 town vig can happen, which goes back to the original argument against that.

[Raskolnikov]

Lol if I wanted you lynch you without thought I wouldn't have let you claim.

[Raskolnikov]

But then you would have obvscummed and would automatically be lynched the next day or maybe even Cedrick shooting you. I don't think you can risk that. At least this way with half-baked arguments maybe you can live a bit longer.

No in that case the hammerer would, and cedrick wasn't claimed either so that doesn't make sense.

[Raskolnikov]

Did you know cedrick was vig before he claimed?

[Raskolnikov]

You're not making any sense but that's not really new.

[Raskolnikov]

Anyway I have other stuff to do and I don't think talking to you is going to be a good way to spend my time, you're clearly not going to unvote, so bye.

This is the main problem I've had with kiana all game. Almost all of why she talks to people is to get them to unvote her instead of trying to sort them.

[Raskolnikov]

In that post she's talking about the scum possibility.

[Raskolnikov]

I don't even know what you're saying anymore. So you actually think there's 2 vigs?

[Raskolnikov]

How do people even townread kiana this game.

[Raskolnikov]

No idea(only that you ever let a part for error), I hope Gamma and Hiraki will never mod games.

Well that I don't mind THAT much TBH. Being distrustful of setup things is an okay default stance because it's complicated as fuck and can burn you if you think you know more than you actually do. But I just think kiana's scumtelling all game long and it's mystifying people are going the other way as hard as townreading. I think only bujaber really explained (agreed with her cases and her style was "protown" I think ?) and his view is believable but everyone else idk where they're even coming from.

[Raskolnikov]

Actually what the fuck, how does me misreading Kiana equal being a bad mod? Why shouldn't I WOTC you?

He's talking about the setup stuff in that post.

[Raskolnikov]

Gamma please.

[Raskolnikov]

Please?

[Raskolnikov]

Remember that time you sheeped me and it all worked out?

[Raskolnikov]

I don't remember either, but it probably happened once, maybe.

[Raskolnikov]

We can let the vig claims shoot each other?

What if only 1 night kill happens? Scum vig isn't real and real vig may be blocked via e.g. RB, JK, maybe doc or bp if mod would let scum keep those roles if they rolled them in this setup.

[Raskolnikov]

I'm worried going down that road leads to outed invest PRs and might even go into massclaim tomorrow which I'm not entirely comfortable with. I don't think this is a scenario that needs invest PR actions to be resolved.

[Raskolnikov]

Okay it's decided, we have to do the opposite of what beefster said.

[Raskolnikov]

How do you read kiana and cedrick ignoring claims?