White Flag - TM2020

[Auro]

Hi!
VOTE: wgeurts
Wagons

[Auro]

@everyone, why did everyone choose this game?

I'm not going to have a lot of time to invest in TM, so decided I'd go for the simplest setup.

[Auro]

Eh, I don’t read her stressing about read accuracy as subconscious scum paranoia. The investigative PR name drop just seems coincidental.

I liked how instead of just answering the free question she turned it back around on rooster boi too.

Agree.

How does the answer to "Why White Flag?" give any useful information? The reasons would have been established prior, and there's no picking games after role assignments anyway.

When I saw how active FF was being I thought I would have a townread on him by the time I caught up, but I don't!

Can you explain?

[Auro]

Why did you ask that question?

I will reveal this once everyone has answered

It's perfectly fine to introduce a discussion point, but why not just explain that at the beginning?
What have you learnt from the responses?

[Auro]

Woah, ease up on the reins there buddy. I don't like this. Why are you chasing Dann up on this so fast? He was clearly going to address this, or if he didn't then it'd be much more useful to ask 'hey Dann why didn't you follow up on this'. What do you get from asking him before he's posted again, because it looks like posturing from you - asking townish questions - to me at the moment.

I'll clarify - I wasn't attacking Dann in that comment, I was asking Gobbledygook what he learnt from our responses to his question; and why he said he couldn't reveal the reasons for asking that question.

Do you think there is scum motivation for asking that question?

There's motivation to ask it as both town and scum. I'm only interested in what you've learned from the rest of our responses.
I can see scum motivation in posting a question designed to appear towny while not having any real justification for it, maintaining secrecy when asked why you did, and giving a tame explanation much later.
What's your experience playing scum? Can you describe your scum playing style? More specifically - if you roll scum, would you allow being coached by your partners?

[Auro]

What's your experience playing scum? Can you describe your scum playing style? More specifically - if you roll scum, would you allow being coached by your partners?

@Gobbledygook.

[Auro]

I can't tell if Cephrir was being opportunistic by voting me first while you and Auro were pretty openly probing me with skeptical sounding questions or if you guys are town for not voting me despite the tone of your posts implying that you want to

Why would not voting you despite our apparent intention to do so make us towny? On the contrary, I'd find that scummy myself.
You state you're on-the-fence about Cephrir here, although you had just voted him for other reasons. I'm kindaaa concerned about the phrasing of this.


Sorry about the grill, I'll stop here.

Edit: I looked at viewtopic.php?f=2&t=80850&user_select[]=33140 and viewtopic.php?f=2&t=80463&user_select[]=33140 after typing that up, seems like the turkey is a lot more opinionated in those scumgames. Warrants further checking but I think his behaviour here strays a lot from them, so I'll award him a townread as well now.

[Auro]

so i've played two games with you, and i thought you looked really town when you were scum and were boring and just kind of there when you were town. is this a pattern, or is it just me?

It would massively help (given you have the time) if you could retrieve those ISOs and try to nail down what exactly made him come off as towny/boring in his respective games, general reads on him, and establish if that's a recurrent pattern in others.

[Auro]

Dann, can you ask the worst about what exactly pinged him from my entrance?
I almost always tend to wagon in RVS.

Sleeping now, will give thoughts on other stuff tomorrow.

[Auro]

I must say I'm loving this game - less spam, a lot of walls, a slower pace

Yes, Gobble did replace into both of those scumgames perhaps, but the tone is still very different. Even with some amount of early game content Gobble's tone has remained the same; so I'm not interested in any attacks there. Minus points to Dunn for continuing to push there.

I'm liking Dann more now, specifically that he had TW giving him insights and the explanation didn't seem post-hoc-fabricated.

FormerFish isn't as impressive as his former games at all. He has a lot of posts, but not a lot of content, save a weakish push on KittyMo.

VOTE: auro

?

VOTE: FormerFish

[Auro]

Dunnstral, the difference in those conditions is irrelevant.

I admit I've just skimmed, but see for yourself - he's very directed in his posts in that game, and mildly aggressive. It feels like a stark contrast from this game, where there's clearly enough content to start making pushes but he's on the fence, with no aggression. It's reasonable to infer that he'd carry the same general mindset at game start, which would reflect as forced pushes.

[Auro]

The biggest variable in tone is alignment, especially for someone who hasn't played many scumgames. I don't think the other variables matter much.

I haven't had a look at his towngame for comparison, I'll do that.

[Auro]

I never alleged it's a sinister scum tactic. I just awarded a few minus points for attacking a townread of mine, why is that unreasonable?

[Auro]

Dude what. Quickly interrupting me reading up to state how this is a terrible idea. Why would you participate in an event consisting of games where everyone is expected to be playing at their best, knowing you don't have the time to do so?

Others are dependent on your performance, not just of your team but also your faction in this game. You are an absolute liability to the town if you don't put in effort, which takes time. I really hope to see it from you.

I said I don't have a *lot* of time, doesn't mean I'm going to do nothing. A simpler game allows me to focus more on pure gameplay.
Our stated reads match to some extent - Formerfish and Turkey - so what's your concern about me exactly? Join the FF wagon?

I don't think it's a good reason to suspect someone the way you initially stated it
I'm not sure theres a significant difference between minus points and thinking something is more likely than some other action to be a scum tactic

It's quite simple reasoning. A continued push on reasons I (at least initially) disagreed with, on a slot I judge likely town, is slightly likelier to come from scum than random to my eyes. You've never seen someone push someone else for pushing a townread of theirs?
Also, can you give me a brief explanation of your scumreads so far?

[Auro]

So you feel hes more likely to be scum from those posts than town, given that you gave reasons he could be scum without pointing out the ways he could be town from that while saying his posts might be town motivated or scum motivated. It bugs me you didnt just straight up say that. It feels like you are trying to play it safe by not calling him scum but shading him regardless.
And besides that, i dont think "your meta as scum" is a good question either. Scum can lie here and town might self incriminate. And this isnt something that provokes discussion either unlike gobble. I want to read everything before saying anything concrete but yeah, dont like this post at least.

Um, no, I was just highlighting possible scum motivation since he asked what scum motivation could be there. You will see that I eventually take more solid stances on a variety of slots, alleging that I'm 'playing it safe' is untrue.

"your meta as scum" is a perfectly good question - scum lies can be caught easily, and the response helps give insight into the person's playing style. I'd usually expect very different approaches towards answering the question from both alignments, wouldn't you?

Dont want to come off like im parroting gooble but cephrir sucks man. Most of his posts are quick one liners that you cant say much to and he seems afraid to engage properly, especially 81 is awful. I'm fine with placing my vote there but i want to clear my mind on former first because this doesnt play like his towngame.

Agree. The timing of his vote throws doesn't seem very towny to me either. Still, I'm happier voting FF, and I'd like to see your opinions on him first.

[Auro]

I dont have a problem with you responding to his question, but why did you feel the need to mention that there could be a town agenda also without providing an example for that? Thats what bugs me.
And you may take the most controversial, extreme opinions later in the game, but right now i stand by saying that you're playing it incredibly safe.

Then you've not read my post properly. I was calling out scum motivation in maintaining secrecy about the reasoning behind the question; not scum motivation for the question itself.
Even then, this is such a small point to be concerned about -- that I'm not providing an 'example' of town agenda -- I find it odd that this of all things bugs you.
Incredibly safe? I've openly attacked FormerFish, Dunnstral, Cephrir; I've hard-defended Gobbledygook in the last few pages, which stances of mine do you find 'incredibly safe'?

Your entire attack on me is grasping and empty, and not reminiscent of the time we played together last.
VOTE: Dongempire

I'm interested to hear how you'd easily catch scum lying about their meta, what would you do exactly to find out they are lying? Cause if its reading their scum games for that, then the question is unnecessary as you can just whip out the games and find it out without asking. And yes, i'd agree different approaches. Town would sometimes self incriminate due to meta being mostly similar with slight variation between them, and scum would lie. If they dont then scum can also self incriminate, making it non different for both alignments, therefore not an usefull question.

Yes, and hence forces them to answer truthfully. Of course I'll

also

take a look at their scumgames (which I did) and if they're lying, great!

Any

question can get a town-but-incriminating or scum-but-lying response, that hardly makes the questions themselves useless. Especially since the intent of that question wasn't to weaponize it and look for holes, rather to just develop an insight into their playstyle from their own words. You're spending a lot of words here saying nothing.

[Auro]

Sorry you don't like my posting style. How does that make me scum?

I think he means you don't appear to be engaging with people in the spirit of solving the game.
Your posts seem to have the following pattern: {Make an attack, generic stance, generic stance, unexplained vote switch}.
Your attacks themselves aren't all that impressive, and I don't see any effort made into

engaging

with players to find out more about them.

Maybe it's your style, but scummy nonetheless.
Do you disagree?

[Auro]

Funny, I can't find that in his post at all. Maybe you're making it up.

"Most of his posts are quick one liners that you cant say much to and he seems afraid to

engage properly

"

I don't think there's anything especially generic about my opinions. It's a fun word to throw at me though! Yes I have switched twice. Wow what a strong pattern I guess this must be the only thing I'll ever do.

Spoiler: Meh

is elements doing a bit or something? idgi

so i've played two games with you, and i thought you looked really town when you were scum and were boring and just kind of there when you were town. is this a pattern, or is it just me?

i just reskimmed him and liked it more than i did the first time, and i think he's not afraid to make waves and that's good

i wonder if i'll be able to disentangle kittymo's alignment from generally enjoying her as a poster/person.

I haven't engaged gobble? Or dann, if not at length? What universe do you live in?
I don't really do extended 1v1s if I can help it. I don't typically find that to be useful. I also have a tendency to glaze over long posts and stop processing them at some point, and this game has a lot of those.

Again,

alignment-seeking

engagement. You're responding to questions, sure, but you don't look like you're solving. Also given that the walls aren't doing much for you, I'd expect you to try and interact more with the intent of sorting people.

Of course I disagree. Even if this was the extent of my style (it isn't), styles cannot be scummy. That's why they're called style, not alignment indicative information.

Styles can absolutely be anti-town, and hence scummy.

[Auro]

Auro—and Dongempire I guess—do you have specific examples of posts/times where Cephrir seems to be avoiding engaging or not genuinely trying to solve?

I've quoted a few, but it's hard to provide concrete examples of something that's missing.
Do you not get the same impression looking at his engagements with other slots - that he's not making an attempt to sort them through the engagements?

[Auro]

I wasnt clear, i meant playing it safe when it came to pressuring gobble, since you didnt place any concrete read on him as of that post.

You lost me in the first paragraph. I already say that i had no problem with you calling out any scum motivation that post might have had, after all thats what gibble asked for. What i had trouble with was that you needlessly said it could come from both town or scum. That was uncalled for in that case.
It might be a small point, i cant argue about its importance. However it was an interesting point for me to dwell on and thats about how i decide on things to push. It wasnt a clear cut point so i pushed it, do you still have a problem with it?

I dont believe im grasping. I think that anyone who looks at the wording your posts had would come to the same conclusion as i have. And im not trying to push you with this either - im still conflicted on which side you're on and this was a way to clarify perhaps, and as long as you work with me on this instead of brushing it away by saying its grasping...

My statement about the question coming from town/scum was to show that I agree there's likelier motivation, clarifying that I was instead talking about the secrecy.
"I agree X can come from both, but, I find scum motivation in Y"
Yes, I still think it's an empty case. I still find it odd that you accused me repeatedly of 'playing it safe' only in the context of a singular push without reading my later posts.

However,
VOTE: Cephrir

[Auro]

My team is supporting me on the Auro suspicion

More details on why your teammates suspect me, pl0x?

[Auro]

oh hi its me

Hi!! So who's scum nsg?

[Auro]

So you want to lynch Gobble?
Can you help me see town Cephrir?

[Auro]

On a second look, FF had mentioned earlier about seeing Dann as 'trying too hard to make friends' with North at the start. Want to look at this as I catch up/reread as calling it a TvT is obviously reasonable for town legit thinking that, but also in character for scum who wants friends.

Is there more to this for your Dann scumread?

I don't really get the mindset underlying this vote 24 hours into the event. Could you explain your mindset. Did you have any other scumleans here at all?

I explained it in the very post you quoted - FormerFish's content was unimpressive, unlike in my previous games with him. Why was this hard to understand?
Mild on Dunn at that point, no real reads on anyone else at that point AFAIR.

I don't get how you're concluding on his meta when you've only looked at the scum and forming a conclusion strong enough to be actively debating it with Dunn like that. It feels like a disengage at the end/get out of jail free 'whatever I say here is fine/I'm leaving myself open to changing it since I've barely read his meta.'

The difference I noticed on a light skim was enough to make a decently strong conclusion. Debating it also helped read Dunn to an extent.
Everything is open to change :shrug:

[Auro]

@Auro/Dann/Dong: did any of you look through Ceph meta during this discussion? I think at least 1-2 of you heavily leaned on meta for Gobble (can't remember which 100% atm and I'll check after this) and it feels odd those people are debating 'short posting style' as alignment indicative without looking at meta to see whether that's a posting style thing in every game.

I recall saying I don't care much if something's scummy because of posting style?
If it's "style" to refrain from meaningful engagement, I'm still gonna lynch.


Also, can you help me see town!FF?

[Auro]

It reads like scum who sees something town does that looks really scummy on a surface level and thinks it's a safe vote, when in actuality if they were town they would've taken more time to consider why scum!Cephrir would behave this way

Do you get the same vibes from me?
I know it's not hard for scum to engage and bullshit, but still, the lack of meaningful engagement is a good enough reason to scumread someone, no?

I made an aggressive attack at Dong primarily to see his response. I'm not sure that's a line of attack scum would take against me ("playing it incredibly safe"), and his response in 201 seemed to set things in additional context. I felt his thoughts were genuine, and I liked his reaching out to work together - where scum in that position could easily continue to attack.

[Auro]

No, I forgot to mention - I don't have any read on Dong yet, maybe a mild townlean. I've played with him once before, I think I'll get a better hold of his alignment further into the game.

[Auro]

NSG, why are you so disengaged with the game? Is it out-of-game reasons?

[Auro]

Vote: Auro

This was from skimming this page alone, or part of your promised effort, or just wagons?

[Auro]

Is there a reason that makes it specifically town indicative for their slot, though? Like why is the scenario that Mr. Duck had the reasoning to begin with less plausible if the slot is scum?

Yes. I think the scenario where Duck makes up a small reason to suspect me and has Damn post it is ess plausible than Duck actually telling him to keep an eye on me, given I find the reasoning provided later genuine. Dann could've just said it and made up a reason post-hoc, but it would've looked fake.

You didn't ask me if I did form thoughts on dunn from that conversation which I did, and it's hardly an "extended" conversation. You'll notice I backed off from pushing Dunn right away.

I'm surprised at how serious people take "minus points" to be. If someone's at 100, and they push me or a townread of mine, that's reason to knock them down to 95. Of course people are wrong in Mafia; it's just ever so likelier that scum might be pushing someone I think is town to my eyes given I don't like the attack. I don't see why "minus points" translates to "especially disingenuous", why are you guys stressing on it this much?

Haven't looked at a town game yet, but I'm not really interested much either at this point. The expected result of my looking there is to end up at a nullread on gobble, and not a scumread. Given I have stronger scumreads, I'm interested in pushing there.

Espeonage, what in the previous page pinged you? Can you go into details please?

[Auro]

Well if he's town, then his teammate acts one way, if he's scum then his teammate acts the other way, right? Or are you saying that Duck wouldn't bother with that if he were scum?

Yeah, if they were scum I don't think they'd fake a reason for duck to tell Dann to keep an eye out for me.

[Auro]

Questions are framed to find a way out of suspicion rather than getting a level of understanding which is a scum mindset v town mindset thing.

Example of such question framing?

[Auro]

So how would I frame that question if I wanted to gain a "level of understanding" with you, versus "wiggling out of suspicion"?

[Auro]

This is really bad.

My intention was to test whether it was an empty statement (scum) or if there

were

legitimate reasons for teammates' concern. It wasn't to combat the reasons themselves.
Very much like my asking Dann about his teammate's thought process in asking to keep an eye on me.

It's very far from a 'blueprint on appearing town'.

[Auro]

Do you mind clarifying a bit? My understanding was that your read of him was more or less the same after it, and so I was asking you if there WAS anything seemingly disingenuous about his reasoning. Or if there's anything else you don't like about how he went about it other than he's pushing your townread.

I want to say town lean, but I'm not sure.

[Auro]

Just saying I am here.

VOTE: gobble

^Joan of Arc's ISO

[]
[

Joan of Arc

, Cephrir, Dongempire, wgeurts]
[Kittymo, Auro, Hopkirk]
[Dannflor, Formerfish, northsidegal, Espeonage]
[gobbledygook]

[Auro]

Spent enough time talking about this with my team that I’m reasonably confident I didn’t miss anything, but if anyone notices a way we can possibly still have any chance of winning even with the tiebreaker in place then please let me know.
Kind of kills a lot of the enthusiasm I had for the team element of team mafia.

Hey, to be completely frank, I don't really care for winning Team Mafia as a whole.
There are complaints about this game but I'm enjoying it nonetheless

About FF: He was Nev from some Booneytunz Extravaganza game I remember, and was a very aggressive (in a way that advances the game) voice there, his 20 posts here feel nothing like that. I forget why I asked you to sell me on town!FF, looking back at your posts I don't see a townread from you.

I didn't *state* a read on Dunn till very recently, where I said I

want

to townread him? I'm liking him more and more as the game goes. *shrug*

[Auro]

I got the impression you backed off as you didn't want to continue the conversation and didn't get an impression you had a read on Dunn from it. Saying 'you didn't ask if I formed a read' is a massive cop out/doesn't really sound sincere- sounds more like 'you never told me not to break your flowerpots'.

The 100, 95 thing is just plain wrong. If 'pushing' you/your townreads is scummy then you're saying you think it's scummy to push people you don't have a read on which definitely runs contrary to everything I've heard before.

Why are you settling at a nullread when the towngames might get you a townread on him or a scumread? I don't like that you're abandoning the read as null when you literally have a source of information that you said you were planning to look at that could swing it one way or the other.

1. No, it was addressing the assumption that I carried a useless conversation.
2. Um, how does (push a townread is scummy) extend to (push a nullread is scummy)?! Where does this giant leap in logic come from?
3. My premise was that his play in those scumgames was aggressive, and he isn't here. The intended 'find' for me would be to see that he was similarly aggressive in said towngames; a finding which by itself would put him at worst null. I doubt the information I gain will be significant in other ways, I'm not willing to put in the effort to study it while I have stronger in-game scumreads.

[Auro]

If I look through your other games are they going to mention you having any reads in any of those?

I low key scum read NSG atm, not this post but just thought I'd mention it.

Lol I

wanted

to say something along those lines but was worried it'd flout rules.
That said, NSG did promise we'd be townreading her once she 'plays the game', looking forward to it! Definitely not a slot we should worry about now.

[Auro]

Haven't played with him so no idea if him not being active is scum indicative like I've heard it is for other people. Someone mentioned NSG has a rep for that so do you have any thoughts on her lack of activity/how this differs to your read on FF?

NSG's being clear in her lack of effort so far, and has mentioned there are other reasons.
FF is a slot I wouldn't mind lynching D1, but NSG I wouldn't - even if there were reasons to believe she's scum, I'd put her off for a later day.

What would you propose I say instead when asked to explain a teammate's read when they didn't offer any reasons? I was heading off an expected attack about this lack of reasons when my team is primarily, though not entirely, communicating in gut read form.

Ask your teammates for the reasons? Say it was a gut read, point to specific posts that made them feel so perhaps?
Why be deliberately obtuse?
"Auro is scum so answering is a waste of my time, therefore I shall simply refuse to answer" is a poor approach.

[Auro]

1- nothing further to address
2- Because your townreads are other peoples nullreads. I think you might have misunderstood what I was saying. Unless you think that every townie should have reads perfectly alligned with yours (especially early on) then their pushing your townreads is more likely (given num town vs num scum) to be a town pushing a nullread. The majority of pushes are going to be town/town especially early on when people are trying to do initial sorts and reads are light.
3- Reading Gobble meta would also help sort Dunn right? I'm assuming you're just
I understand 'not wanting to put the effort in'. I was going to look at Gobble's past games when I noticed Hectic in a few of them and thought 'phew, wasn't looking forward to diving into meta' since I'm getting to a fairly busy time workwise again (gosh darn December year ends).

2. Yes, but I'm looking at things from my perspective, where the only information I know for sure is

my

alignment, and afterwards hunches on others' alignments. So from my PoV, if I feel someone's town, and someone else is continuously attacking this townsperson, that's enough to knock them down a few points early game. Nowhere does it mean it's a solid unchanging read. As to the latter argument, the majority of the game is going to be town, so anyone I push is more likely going to be town than scum anyway, no?
3. Incomplete point? I don't think it would help sort Dunn - I don't have reason to believe Dunn's lying about said meta.

[Auro]

I haven't played with North in a while but I think I heard somewhere she's strong town. Is that why you'd avoiding lynching there, or is it because you think she's easier to sort later, or something else?
Think you said FF was strong town (though may be twisting your phrasing here when you just meant like 'active') so is there a difference there?

Didn't NSG's lack of effort come after the FF exchange? Her early posts didn't really specify anything of that sort.

Yeah, that alone is a reason I'd avoid lynching her D1. She is

also

easier to sort after some gameplay, I guess (although I have lost to scum!NSG before).
Also, I feel that the nature of Team Mafia and the game setup might make it easier to read her as well.

Yeah I wouldn't apply a BoP to FF, I did indeed mean 'active' in the sense of meaningfully aggressive and probing, etc. His current content is lacklustre.

[Auro]

I'm going to have to mull over how that shifts it. "Why didn't you ask me if my read changed" is...I'm again not a fan, I didn't see anything in Auro's posts that implied the needle had moved there. (Am I expected to constantly ask him if his reads changed?)

No, you do realize my response was to show that you had made an assumption regarding my lack of read, right? I'm not going to constantly state my readslist on every person, moreso if I'm ending up with a town read/lean on someone not under scrutiny.

@Dann, somehow I feel a little bit uncomfortable with my being the "most confident" town read. Does tw concur?

@"caught for the wrong reasons": Read up *any* of my prior town games, and see if you get the same vibe.

@Dunn: Ceph is in your townbloc why..?

@the Joan of Arc point: I think Dunn's reasoning actually makes sense here, and if Gobble's actually scum this would make Joan very likely town to me. However I can also imagine scum!her being coached into naked wagoning and lurking...

[Auro]

I don't know, independent of her meta tell for being scum, the fact that she left her vote on wgeurts despite naming him as one of her THREE town reads seems pretty bad coming from the Paragon.

Do note that this is Team Mafia: even if she rolled scum, her teammates would readily divert some attention here, no? I can't imagine them taking "lurking" as a scum strategy here...

[Auro]

Lurking as a scum strat has a much higher negative impact than lurking right now as town, though.

VOTE: FormerFish

Mobile site expands the text box when I type in something in the preview screen, hiding the submit button.

[Auro]

but your argument seems to assume they put her scum game as a priority while they don't care if she's town

I mean given her strength as town versus scum in *this* setup especially, why not?

[Auro]

The point I am making is that there is a right way to ask about suspicion on yourself, and just asking and getting ammo on how to fix it and be town read is not the way to do it.

Why not? I have stated I do this as town, and Dunn has sort of affirmed it too.
Also, debating on reasons behind scumreads on me usually helps a lot in forming reads. Absolutely disagree that it's the "wrong" approach to scumreads.

Spoiler: Thor's Words

Subject: [Game Over] Open 743 - The Crown of Misery

And that I'm not working with others is blatantly false - what the hell?

UNVOTE:

nah he's scummy let's not. hm.

I'll bite.
Why am I scummy?

You’re spending most of your time outlogicking people instead of convincing them to vote the person you are voting.

I'm spending most of my time outlogicking people that are calling me scummy - I can't get them to sheep me until I defeat their initial bad premise.
Also, I'v espent a *lot* of time arguing for my scumreads -do you need post numbers? How do you justify claiming it as not spending time trying to get them lynched. Frankly half of my "outlogics" are about me explaining my case while people call my case scummy.
Back up this empty accusation please and thank you.

btw im feeling alive now

still want a thor flip

I bet you do.
How's that "case" thing going?
Y'know, the one you don't have?

[Auro]

And that I'm not working with others is blatantly false - what the hell?

This should be outside the spoilered quote, sorry.

[Auro]

Basing meta off booneytunz extravaganza, weren't you Nev?

I do love wagons based on nearly nothing in RVS, yes.

Playstyle is no excuse for scummy play.

I did form a mild push based on people's actions - their attack of a townread of mine.

I admitted the opposite about Doing, what did you get out of post 259?

I didn't "step in", I was also attacking Ceph from before that, so...? How is this scum motivated anyway?

I see the Dong+Auro association but that's not a path I'd take if I were scum with him, lol.

[Auro]

How do you feel about Auro since has basically did the same things as Dong here? Are you tring Auro since you think scumDong latched onto his bad read on Ceph?

I asked him this and this was answered earlier.
You're throwing a number of stale attacks that I've already responded to. Perhaps read through the game once before asking questions?

You were the primarily active head in the early stages of BooneyTunz, that you were in a Hydra shouldn't change much. Again, I was only talking about posted content - not the lack of activity. Even if you were unhappy, I liked your posts (even though I remember my slot was in conflict with yours a lot).

I'm not shitting on you, I'd award a BoP rarely. NSG being easily detectable as scum helps my reasoning, in that she wouldn't pose a major threat to town early game.

I don't think distancing happens this early in a White Flag game, especially if your teammate's being pushed by multiple people. (Regarding Gob vs Joan)

Yeah, learned a lot from my vote hopping, I've explained my trajectories on various slots - are you even reading my posts?

You'll also discover I moved off Ceph (although I don't quite want to), being dismissive and uncooperative is easy for scum to hide behind.

The "attacking townread of yours shouldn't make them scum" argument has been repeated ad nauseam in this game and is frankly a huge stretch from "minus points". And I did exactly what you describe in that long paragraph - engaged with a person with a different view and reassessed. Misconstruing it as a rigid, solid, stubborn scumread is scummy.

Lol, you do realize my attack was parallel to Dong's before he asked that question, right? And weren't you saying we were SvS?

[Auro]

Y'all can revisit this later as anecdotal evidence but I am gonna need more than logical fallacies to join wagons for the sake of it.

Which part of "they still didn't bother shifting votes off a top 3 townread" is fallacious? It's a pretty standard standard to hold someone to, moreso from a known competent player.

[Auro]

Yes.

[Auro]

So you care more about the single rvs vote on wgeurts from NSG that is in no way a danger to wgeurts because he has one vote and I havent seen many people saying hes on the top of their scum list.

NSG has said she isnt very involved in the thread right now and you seem to have an issue with that.

Joan said shes here and then naked votes Gob and you seem to be just aofuckingk with that for some reason.

Why worry about a vanity rvs vote at all?

Spoiler: Fact Check: Is Auro taking much issue with NSG's lack of involvement?

That said, NSG did promise we'd be townreading her once she 'plays the game', looking forward to it! Definitely not a slot we should worry about now.

NSG's being clear in her lack of effort so far, and has mentioned there are other reasons.
FF is a slot I wouldn't mind lynching D1, but NSG I wouldn't - even if there were reasons to believe she's scum, I'd put her off for a later day.

Yeah, that alone is a reason I'd avoid lynching her D1. She is also easier to sort after some gameplay, I guess (although I have lost to scum!NSG before).

NSG being easily detectable as scum helps my reasoning, in that she wouldn't pose a major threat to town early game.

If you're making up stuff, you can do far better. I was attacking Esp's attack of Gob's argument (which he

called

fallacious but quite isn't).
It's about a lack of vote change, not the vanity vote itself.
The concern about NSG is legitimate,

especially

if you view Team Mafia holistically.

[Auro]

All of the mentality stuff I am reading in Auro's posts reads to me as working out how to be town read not how to convince others of their own reads to work with others

So after more than one person asked you to look at my town games where my posts come off exactly like this, and my calling your allegation of "not working with anyone" blatantly false... You justify your vote on me because wagon composition?

Okay.

[Auro]

at least one of them is very likely reading this game completely differently to me.

Both of them have played with me before.

[Auro]

I have not looked at a single one of your games and I never will. If you run your mouth with self meta you gonna end up being another mod kill to add to the pile.

What sort of dumb logic is this?
Like, seriously?

[Auro]

I've played with them both before as well, so what? See above.

So based on their experience with me (which you lack) they don't think I'm the best vote for reasons you allege.

They must be crazy, amirite?

[Auro]

if i were scum, i wouldn't have any problem having rc just give me things to say. i don't have nearly as much time as i would like right now and while it really pains me to be playing this way in front of the entire site, i don't want to be killed before i can actually impact the game.

also, i don't really care to unvote if it's not doing any damage.

NSG I'm inclined to believe you have time for TM *for reasons*, can you come play the game kthanx

[Auro]

Oh God. Did I say it's my town meta?
This isn't a trust tell. This is just how I play the game in general. This is not *town* meta, it's just meta.
I didn't say I don't play like this in scum games.
If you observe the same behavior in towngames, that's evidence *against* a scumread on me for that behaviour.

If you're scumreading me for an exclusive reason X, and I show that I demonstrate X in towngames, that's grounds to reassess. Not even remotely a trust tell.

[Auro]

Oh, no! This appeal to authority completely destroys my suspicions. I guess people who haven't played with someone before aren't capable of reading that person.

It's an appeal to experience, not authority. Esp *refused* to take a look at my town games where there's clear evidence against his reason for the scumread, whereas people who played with me have it.

[Auro]

Didn't dann say he was just "kick-starting" the game by throwing out such a townread?

He said he's going to post soon, let's see if the read sticks.

[Auro]

I don't care! If he doesn't use meta, that's his prerogative.

Let's try to figure where we disagree.

1. Esp said I'm scum for a reason X.
2. A cursory glance at my town games would show X in those games.
3. Dunn also says I do X as town.
4. Therefore, scumreading me for X is not valid.
5. Therefore, Esp should re-assess.

(I don't think X is scummy by itself anyway, but that's a different issue)

Can you tell me which point you disagree me with on?

[Auro]

You're saying those people are authorities on you and their opinions therefore are the only ones that count. Six of one, half dozen of another.

No. I'm arguing in a very specific context.
I'm being scumreads for reasons XYZ, which are disproved by looking at my previous town games.
People who played with me before know that, versus people who haven't played with me *and* are refusing to look at them.

Again, which part of this is wrong?

[Auro]

The meta thing:
1. I claim that *anyone* who has played with me before, or reads my town games, would arrive at the same conclusion.
2. If it's subtly different, then I invite whoever thinks so to go into detail - because that subtle difference is apparently enough to want to have me lynched. Refusing to talk about it is scummy, yeah?
3. This is one thing that's pretty consistent across games.

As to focus on defense:
1. Looking at whether/how people re-assess based on defense is a valuable means to gaining reads on them.
2. People will sheep me once I defeat their initial bad premise.

As to "harping on dumb points":
1. So you agree that that scumread on me is dumb? If it seems like a legitimate reason, then defending against it is good, no?
2. Are you alleging I'm not doing anything else this game? I want you to explicitly say so, if you are.

[Auro]

Just to butt in, I agree with points 1, and 3. I'll take face value on 2. But 4 and 5 aren't the natural conclusions.

Okay. If X is an exact behaviour, then 4 is a direct conclusion from 2.
If 4 isn't the natural conclusion, there must be

some

qualitative difference between X in town games and X here.
Can you have a look and explain?

[Auro]

I mean that you like to get argumentative and try to slam tiny sub-points that don't even matter into the ground

Not literally nothing else but you're spending more time on it than I feel is warranted.

Umm but I'm debating the top reason I'm being scumread for by multiple people.
I'm dividing into sub-points to locate the source of disagreement.
As long as the disagreements persists, it's a great idea to talk about it, yeah?

[Auro]

If you do X as town and people have observed this there is even more equity for you to do X as scum. You obviously do it as town, you could take advantage of doing it as scum, it's null.

However, I have specifically stated that my issue with you isn't what you are doing, but how you are doing it. I have talked about your mentality behind the base action and the words and tone you use. THAT is the difference why I think you are scum.

Yes, I'm saying it's

null

, and therefore not a reason to scumread me.

I'm claiming that you would get the same general impression about my words/tone from other town games. The accusation that I "am trying to form a blueprint to get out of being scumread" is a distinct enough behaviour to glean from other games. My focus on defending against scumreads on me is also something you can spot very easily from a skim.
I've explained my mentality behind such behaviour as well -

do you believe you can see little reason for town!Auro to be posting in such a way?

Spoiler: For reference

Questions

are framed to find a way out of suspicion rather than getting a level of understanding

which is a scum mindset v town mindset thing.

uhhh... like that.

Like, town need to not lynch town too. And majority of players are town. So chances are if someone suspects you, you could be working better with them. So you try and get in to their head to understand why they are thinking the way they are thinking.

So you want to lynch Gobble?
Can you help me see town Cephrir?

Like this is good.

My team is supporting me on the Auro suspicion

More details on why your teammates suspect me, pl0x?

This is really bad.

Do you see the difference. One is you working with someone to get in to their head to understand what they are thinking and most importantly why. The second is getting the blueprint on how to appear more town.

I agree with Ceph that you are caring way too much about the parts of the whole rather than the whole.
I agree with you that this is worth talking about, if only because it has made me more confident in my read on you.

The parts form the whole. Is there something you think I'm ignoring/not talking enough about?

[Auro]

Is there anything specific anyone wants me to address in real time right now?

Yup, your Esp read!

[Auro]

You are saying that it shouldnt be a scum read because you do the same thing as town sometimes right?

For that to be true then you have to do it sometimes as scum. So maybe thats just what we have here, one of the times you are doing it as scum and you are trying to excuse it by saying you also do it as town so scum reading you is bad.

But for that you need explicit scum motivation, no?
The behaviour in question here is my 'logicking' against scumreads on me.
I offered town motivation in that: To help evaluate the people scumreading me, and also convincing them against the scumread so they can work with me.
This isn't a generic scummy behaviour I happen to sometimes as town; I actively do this as town for reasons I stated above.

[Auro]

His entrance gut town pinged me. Specifically #265 and #282.. I have no meta with him I just liked those posts as a way to immediately get into the game and start pushing on a deeper level. There's no long useless catch-up which I've seen a little bit of this game.

I mean after the last few pages. Ceph seems townier from them, Esp not.

[Auro]

FF can you tell me where you stand on Ceph/Esp now?
UNVOTE:
Need to think about FF a bit more

[Auro]

Oh no, I'm warming up to a Ceph townread.
What makes you feel Esp is town though?
For starters, his attack on me feels very disingenuous (Ceph has the same line of attack but that doesn't). Read his ISO - there's an unexplained scumread on Dunn, a weak push on you, what else?

[Auro]

Your Dongempire read's still form his Ceph push, or is there more?
Anything you make from Dong's trajectory on me?

[Auro]

Don't look at it from an associative angle for now, I'd say evaluate them separately. I explained the context behind my voting and unvoting him.
Besides, you surely must have seen this happen for TvT before, no?

[Auro]

@FF: Can you summarize your concerns with me once again?

[Auro]

*Sigh*
I mean, the points of contention are that I am scum for XYZ, and it will literally be a hill I die on if they go uncontested
Same exercise: Can you pick out 'points of contention' that you think are unworthy of contesting?

FWIW, if I was scum I wouldn't be active in the way I am right now, I'd just lay low while other wagons happen.

[Auro]

Ceph: Lots of disagreements, can get a feel of why he thinks what he is.
Esp: Disingenuous attacks, lack of content - coasting on Auro push.
FF: Wasn't impressed with content prior to the walls, marked for re-evaluation, like the willingness to engage.
Dunn: Passive, find him reasonable, but does that make him town? Idk.
Joan: Agree with Dunn's reasoning on her, at least to make me not want to lynch her right now.
Dann: I want to call his play... political, but I have some reasons to believe he's town, but he's a great scum player as well, argh~ I'll stick to town for now.
NSG: No comments right now, she has to play the game first, but not willing to lynch anyway.
Wgeurts: No thoughts. That first push on inactivity does feel like posturing, but idk.
Dong: I felt his reaction to my push was towny, but I think I should talk to Dann more about this sometime.
KittyMo: I forgot what I thought of this player before.

On a gamestate level my hunch is that there's scum prolly in the lurkers, and not all scum are pushing me / townreading me at the same time. I think scum would find it easy to coast while I drum up pages of content arguing over things which only seems to strengthen the pushes on me.

[Auro]

At the point she voted it wasn't a dying wagon, she simply hopped on the biggest one. I said I agreed with his reasoning at least to not want to lynch her for now, not that I think she's town.

[Auro]

Yes, and Dunn's reasoning is that for *her* it's more town indicative than scum indicative - if she were scum she'd drum up some opposition to the wagon, etc, wouldn't sheep and lurk away.

Would you want to lynch her, if not me?

[Auro]

Same exercise: Can you pick out 'points of contention' that you think are unworthy of contesting?

You still haven't answered this, FF.

[Auro]

Ceph: Lots of disagreements, can get a feel of why he thinks what he is.
Esp: Disingenuous attacks, lack of content - coasting on Auro push.
FF: Wasn't impressed with content prior to the walls, marked for re-evaluation, like the willingness to engage.
Dunn: Passive, find him reasonable, but does that make him town? Idk.
Joan: Agree with Dunn's reasoning on her, at least to make me not want to lynch her right now.
Dann: I want to call his play... political, but I have some reasons to believe he's town, but he's a great scum player as well, argh~ I'll stick to town for now.
NSG: No comments right now, she has to play the game first, but not willing to lynch anyway.
Wgeurts: No thoughts. That first push on inactivity does feel like posturing, but idk.
Dong: I felt his reaction to my push was towny, but I think I should talk to Dann more about this sometime.
KittyMo: I forgot what I thought of this player before.

On a gamestate level my hunch is that there's scum prolly in the lurkers, and not all scum are pushing me / townreading me at the same time. I think scum would find it easy to coast while I drum up pages of content arguing over things which only seems to strengthen the pushes on me.

Was this not a tl;dr of my thoughts at this point and what I think is 'going on'?
What did you want specifically?

[Auro]

The attack on me? Cool, let me summarize.

Esp thinks I'm asking questions in a manner as to get out of being scumread, instead of trying to work with people. My push against this was that I always do this, it helps me form reads on people, and I can get people to sheep me if they stop scumreading me.
Cephrir thinks the same, and my defense is the same. He thinks I'm spending 'too much time' on contesting scumreads on me, and my 'defensiveness' is major scummy. My push against this was the same as above.
You think the same, that I'm picking 'small points of contention' and 'magnifying' them, which feels 'forced and fake'. My push against this is again the same; helps me form reads and I do this all the time.

So what's going on? We have three people making the *same* attack which is weakened massively by a very simple look at any of my non-hydra towngames (I'm not as active in hydra games because it's a pain to keep logging in ), and I'm not finding it trivial to distinguish between town thickness and scum disingenuousness.

Pedit: Pushes I made in game so far:
1. Push on FF: For lack of game-advancing content in the then ~30 posts.
2. Push on Dong: More of a reaction test than a proper push.
3. Push on Cephrir: For repeated show of disinterest in the game, unwillingness to meaningfully engage with players, statements he couldn't substantiate ("my teammates scumread Auro")
4. Push on Esp: For coasting on an Auro push with little content about other players, lack of willingness to re-assess based on new evidence, disingenuous arguments.

[Auro]

KittyMo, do you want to lynch one of NSG/Joan?

I mean, I do stand by my belief that scum!Gobble would make a case for town!Joan. Where should my read on her be? It's just a smidge above null.

[Auro]

*Sigh*
I mean, the points of contention are that I am scum for XYZ, and it will literally be a hill I die on if they go uncontested
Same exercise: Can you pick out 'points of contention' that you think are unworthy of contesting?

FWIW, if I was scum I wouldn't be active in the way I am right now, I'd just lay low while other wagons happen.

@FF, still unanswered...?

@NSG You've read the game, how about initial impressions at least? Or the scum you "caught" or something pages ago? Like a zero effort post for direction.

[Auro]

Lol sorry about that I read that line as a response to Dunn's wallpost and somehow I had gotten the (wrong) impression you were ignoring my question.

[Auro]

Quick response:
1. You have an incorrect understanding of the chainsaw defense. For reference; https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... aw_Defense. Docking a 'few town points' is not remotely equal to calling them 'very probably scum'.
2. Again, did I say I wanted to hang Dunn? Which post of mine remotely implied that? I was simply debating the read. Read the context behind that exchange again?
3. Third time I'm saying this, my vote on Dong was more of a reaction test. My asking Ceph about his teammates' reads was to test if his claim (that his teammates had a read) was bullshit or genuine.
4. Yes, I won't look at meta with priority because the worst-case scenario is the Turkey going to null, which isn't useful, what's wrong with that? What prevents scum!me from actually going through the games and posting some shit?
5. You're misinterpreting 350 too! I wasn't accusing you of lurking! I was talking about NSG. My vote on you was independent of the first statement.
6. Why was it silly on my part?

I think most of your concerns with me are misinterpretations, so... look over the contexts again?

[Auro]

If you and I arent the lynch today, I dont think Gob is either, where do we go?

I'll respond to this after a few more pages, and I *think* Gob could be back on the table as well.
Also remind me to talk about the chainsaw defence post game

[Auro]

Oooh hi BB :3

I'll respond to questions addressed at me later.

i apologize if this is frustrating, but my team unanimously agrees that it's best for me to spend my time elsewhere. if i don't get nightkilled this game will be my first priority tomorrow.

NSG, for *reasons* this disturbs me now - given the high scum win rate, and the expectation that you'd be N1-killed, doesn't that imply you'd want to make *some* contribution to the thread before you leave?

[Auro]

I'm leaning towards 'scum annoyed he's getting caught for the wrong reasons'

Lol

[Auro]

buried his mana

Yus. I'll post it a few hours.

Esp, associatives don't matter much - especially in White Flag, we're going to have very weird ones. The utility of just a scum lynch is very high, so if there's reason to believe someone's scum, we should just lynch.

[Auro]

Yes, her refusal to play/prioritize D1.
(Hint: are you following TM as a whole?)

Can you think of any town motivation for a probable N1 kill (altho not at this point) being reticent to the point of not posting the reads they already have?

I can imagine scum motivation, BoP. NSG as scum can't bus teammates, and driving a town lynch would be held against her. Not "participating" also explains away that she won't be NK'd.

[Auro]

Clearly me.

[Auro]

His interactions feel like self-aware read interventions rather than the comically aggressive kick-ass-I-don't-care-if-you-hate-me pushes and tunnels I've seen.
I'm heartbroken.

I like how you put this.
I skimmed a couple of past scum FF ISOs and couldn't find this behaviour though. Can you recall him doing this before?

[Auro]

Like I'm already shitted off by being in this game, bc its the worst setup with the weakest playerlist. I don't want other rogue elements coming in and obfuscating the entire thing when it SHOULD be simple enough to just solve the game and be done with the entire thing by the end of the week.

That said, it seems like people are more interested in protecting their scum games by playing blatantly anti town and claiming it's their town meta. So idek any more.

This post feels fake to me.

[Auro]

Who said it's anti-town?

[Auro]

there's no reason to doubt that she is telling the truth

I can imagine scum motivation, BoP. NSG as scum can't bus teammates, and driving a town lynch would be held against her. Not "participating" also explains away that she won't be NK'd.

[Auro]

If NSG has never bussed anyone I will be super surprised.

And I would not make a claim that NSG is non negotiable n1 kill in any game unless she has absolutely nailed the scum team or can be used to heavily implicate another townie. While I said this was the weakest playerlist due to the severe lack of depth, doesn't mean there isn't a top end.

Not in a meta sense, she wouldn't bus because the loss of a scum member has a large detrimental impact for scum.

If she's town, scum have every reason to believe she would "town it up" and gamesolve later, I dunno if they'd keep her around as a lynch option. I bring up the N1 kill point because there's an inconsistency - not in the game directly, and I can't say more.

[Auro]

Dunn 346's counter point to Kitty's claim that Auro is posturing as caught for the wrong reasons was to say yeah but he does this all the time. Which was one a found as soon as I started looking.

Yeah, but it's not anti-town. If my argumentative style is giving someone "caught for the wrong reasons" vibes but it's established it's my style, how is it impeding town?

[Auro]

Yeah and since Dunn implied he isn't good at reading Auro I don't get why he cares so much about trying to bring in Auro meta.

Meta works in two ways.

1. Auro does X as scum and never as town, he must be scum (or) Auro does X as town and not as scum, he must be town
2. X is an invalid reason to scumread Auro because I've noticed it in his towngames

You don't need to be good at reading Auro to make the second point.

[Auro]

This game is mountainous with EXTRA reason to bus. Your argument is inherently flawed by the fact that scum have even more incentive to bus not less

Not on D1, and not if your bus has very high chances of resulting in a lynch.

[Auro]

Auro, if you are town. At what point do you stop and think "Lots of people are scum reading me for the way I am playing and the biggest argument against it I have is it is how I play. Maybe I need to rethink how I am approaching the game"?

Only a few are, who can't even say how it's anti-town.
There's scum in those people.
Onus is on the people to realize it's a bad attack.

Yes on Day 1.

Thinking that the white flag mechanic is going to stop hyper bussing is very dangerous wifom.

Cool, then let NSG give reads and bus her teammates?

[Auro]

I'm well aware of your opinion on it, and frankly it does not help me read you.

Don't care, it's not an "opinion" it's basic reasoning, and this isn't an attempt to help you read me, I'm just showing that your arguments (in this case, saying Dunn can't bring in Auro meta without knowing how to read Auro) are invalid.

[Auro]

Really?

Like actually really?

You think scum!NSG bussing a buddy and causing a scum lynch is bad for the game?

[Auro]

I like both the replacements so far

Can you summarize thoughts on BBMolla?

[Auro]

Maybe it's your style, but scummy nonetheless.

I just remembered this post and think it's funny in light of more recent Auro posts.

I know, I was waiting for someone to point it out

Unwillingness to engage is easily a scummy playstyle, being "argumentative" isn't.

[Auro]

You caught me

[Auro]

If you do something 300 times as scum and 1 time as town, should we not lynch you the 302 time you do something because one time out of the previous 301 times you did that you were town?

The argument that "I know that's scummy, but I do it as town too!" Doesn't mean you shouldn't get lynched here, it means that the players in the other games where you played scummy should have lynched you to change your behavior.

Are you guys discussing my posts in the scum PT or something? I'm constantly saying "ITS NOT SCUMMY, ITS TOWNY AND I DO IT AS TOWN" and all you guys keep changing it to "ik scummy lulz but I willingly did it in town games and I protect my meta and my buddies here townread me to protect meta hehehehe"

[Auro]

The issue Auro is that it isn't townie.

Empty words if you can't explain why it isn't.
What I do is game advancing and helps me evaluate people. By definition, it's pro-town. A sole focus on defense while never pushing anyone can be scummy, yes, but I've also pushed people.

[Auro]

I am uncharacteristically angry at this entire playerlist and setup which isn't helping.

My main quips with the setup were even confirmed like a page ago so whatever.

I feel like you're pissed your Auro push hasn't worked out as well as you thought it would?

[Auro]

Okay let's try something different. Probabilistically speaking, one of Dann, Dunn, and I must be town, right? And if none of them think my style is anti-town, there you go: a town perspective who thinks I'm not anti-town. So perhaps you could be wrong?

[Auro]

Somewhat independently of the associative read, it's ...funny to me that Dann keeps narrating that he just loves Auro and wants to figure out who's pushing Auro disingenuously without asking that many specific questions surrounding suspicion of Auro. Like I guess that comes off as higher % LAMIST concern w/r/t Dann than a concern for buddies.

Hm just putting it out, creating false associations in case I'm lynched is something I'd do as scum, though.

[Auro]

I think Cheeky's town. A lot of points I had in mind or tried to make, she put in better words.

[Auro]

If she is scum then wouldn't her team make shes in here making noise so she doesnt take this heat? If she is town then they probably assume that they can borrow her for the time being with the idea that she can come in here and town it up when she needs to.

I've addressed this.
If she's scum she'd be held accountable for her pushes, she'd take heat for driving a mislynch.
If she's town she's a prime target for a N1 kill, meaning she'd want to have some impact on the game - making her refusal to play D1 strange.

[Auro]

I am uncharacteristically angry at this entire playerlist

Why?

They're not lynching me.

[Auro]

Oh wait Joan=molla not Cheeky.

Idk if you were trying to answer me yet but the quote above is about your read on Joan.

Apologies, I didn't catch that.
I don't think Molla is "obv town", but I'm not concerned about that slot right now.

The timing of Kitty's NSG vote strikes me as very towny.

[Auro]

You're having a very poor grasp of basic reasoning, FormerFish.

So if I do it as both town and scum, you accept that *scumreading* me for it is equally bad, yeah? Where'd I say you should townread me for it? All I'm saying is that it's not a valid attack.

And no, you have a very wrong understanding of the chainsaw defense. We can talk about that post game.

[Auro]

But you seem to enjoy making arguments with logical inconsistencies, like how someone attacking someone you tr is scummy

I explained this in context, you admitted you had changed your viewpoint given context, yet you're bringing up this again?

[Auro]

Town can have their agency captured by scum without knowing it. You saying that town feeling a certain way about you makes you town is a bad logical argument to make

Oh, so now town has a false perspective because I lulled them and robbed them of their agency... versus Espeonage simply being incorrect.

[Auro]

I am still looking for specific insight into this specific statement you made about Joan. If you're not able to dig to get the context back then whatever, come back to it later. I just want to make it clear that "I'm not concerned about BBmolla right now" is not answering my question.

I have some meta experience with Joan. I trust Dunn's reasoning given he has a lot more meta experience with her (to my knowledge). I recall that Gob was being pushed at that time, even if he wasn't the biggest wagon.

Yes, it's somewhat a logical leap. And because it was a leap, it only took her to "very slightly town". What about it?

[Auro]

Finding you scummy for something you do as both alignments is not bad reasoning, its reasoning you dont like. I could find you scummy because you have 4 letters in your name, thatd be bad reasoning, funny though, it wouldnt always be wrong.

And i would like you to explain how i got the chainsaw defense wrong. Hell, anyone could have told me that i had it wrong when i mentioned it. Someone could have cosigned on your telling me i had it wrong. Radio silence from everyone but you. If im wrong tell me how, dont hang this shit on the line to be aired out later once it doesnt matter.

There was no reasoning though, just empty attacks calling it scummy without being able to explain why.

Sure, I'll explain why your chainsaw defense argument was incorrect. Hold on.

[Auro]

If someone is an IC does that make everything they say gospel? You are acting like town can never be wrong about a read and therefore we should tr you because someone you tr does?

No, but: you should realize that there's at least one reasonable town perspective that thinks Auro is being pro-town, and reassess whether your accusations that he's anti-town carry as much merit as you think it does.

[Auro]

You said thats not scummy, i do that as town too

Wrong.

I said "It's not scummy AND I do it as town too"
Independently of me doing it as town, it's also pro-town and not scummy.

[Auro]

There are multiple people telling you the opposite and you refuse to listen, but you pick out one opinion and want us to change how we see.

How egotistical are you?

Quote the multiple people explaining why it's anti-town.
I'm not egotistical, you guys are either scum or thick

I just arrived at work, I'll have to dig up your chainsaw post, will do it in sometime.

[Auro]

Quote the multiple people explaining why it's anti-town.

People don't need to explain things to your liking for it to be true, your role pm dictated that long before you opened your mouth and let us all see which color you got as clearly as you did when you opened the pm.

No. I'm challenging you to qualify your statement. You're so concerned that I'm refusing to listen, no? So I'm asking who ever explained how it's scummy in the first place.

Go ahead.

[Auro]

FF: False statement
Auro: Back it up
FF: people don't need to explain it to you for it to be true, you're scum hurr durr

[Auro]

For a chainsaw defense you dont have to lynch Dunn, you just have to attack him for attacking Gob

Firstly, and most importantly, chainsaw defences don't qualify as a useful scumtell *until* there's a red flip.

Secondly, I wasn't critical of Dunn - I simply argued with him about the read. I awarded him a few "minus points" which shouldn't be misconstrued for a scumread.

Thirdly, the state of my reads changed pretty fast as a result of that argument. This is atypical for a chainsaw defense.

[Auro]

Kitty, this conversation, to my eyes, is an attack on FF more than a defense of myself.

[Auro]

Wait...what? That's not what FF is saying at all and you twisting it this way seems intentional in order to shade him. I don't know why town would do that; do you scumread him?

FF literally said I said that town feeling a certain way about me makes me town. I said that's wrong. Intent behind my original post was that at least one reasonable town voice thinks I'm not being anti-town and that must beg some re-evaluation. FF's response was that town can have their agency captured without knowing it.

What do you think he was saying?

[Auro]

@KittyMo: Dann, Dunn, myself.

@Cheeky: I didn't ask to reassess the read, Cheeky. I wasn't asking for people to townread me because XYZ are townreading me. I was specifically talking about Esp's continuous insistence that my style was anti-town; that if some reasonable townsfolk think it's not anti-town (or better: actually pro-town) then Esp should reassess whether that line of attack holds any merit, regardless of the overall read on me.

Besides, I'm willing to admit I'm wrong - then just explain how my style was/is anti-town? I've challenged esp/FF on this multiple times just to hear over and over that it's scummy without any rationale, or rebuttal to my explanation of why I believe it's towny.

[Auro]

And yeah, I'm scumreading FF.

[Auro]

I'll take a break from the thread for a day or two.

{KittyMo, CheekyTeeky}
{Cephrir, Dann, Dunn}
{BBMolla, Dong}
{FF, Gob}
{Espeonage, NSG}

Hopkirk I dunno where to place you, sorry

[Auro]

Okay. I was being sarcastic, but also take into account I'm very annoyed by that line of attack.

[Auro]

She means Esp green would imply strong Auro red, and in turn Dann, etc...?

Gobble townslipped methinks.

I think Esp is the best lynch regardless today.

[Auro]

I would! I'm more confident in Esp than FF. The game you linked, I couldn't exactly match his behaviour here with.

[Auro]

That's alright. If I may ask, what would be most convincing is if you can show concretely how his behaviour related to scumgames like the one you linked.

[Auro]

I skimmed a couple of past scum FF ISOs and couldn't find this behaviour though. Can you recall him doing this before?

Yep.

Cheeky, did you mean to link another game then? I can already feel how it's different from his towngames based on past experiences, but that wasn't I was looking for.

[Auro]

Skimming the last two pages I like BBmolla for town too, but I don't remember him from the early game at all.

This statement in particular seems to come from a town viewpoint.

I'm not at all sold on a Gobble lynch.

FF, your team was giving you inputs: can you specify what exactly?

[Auro]

This defense is SO lame, are you serious

Can you case Gobble right now?

[Auro]

I'm not so sure on her but I don't want to lynch her just for doing nothing, in this game, because I want to win. Day 2 or day 3, if she's still doing nothing/hasn't been replaced, we can take a harsher look at her based on information we have, right now though it's a lame lynch

Dunn, why did this change?

[Auro]

Its less that they are giving me reads and more that I am using them as a sounding board for my own reads and we are talking them out there, like they are helping me flesh things out a little better than just being in my head.

FF, I would still like to hear the discussions around your thoughts, paraphrased.

[Auro]

Lesser the filters the better
If you're town it'll help me see you're a mislynch.

Also FF, quick question: if we could wagon Dunn right now, would you join?

[Auro]

Also FF, quick question: if we could wagon Dunn right now, would you join?

So I'm guessing post 1069 wasn't interesting to you?

It was, I just wanted to see FF's response.
Just woke up sorta, I'll process things and post soon.

[Auro]

Daaaaaamn

[Auro]

Lesser the filters the better
If you're town it'll help me see you're a mislynch

FF where art thou?
This would help a great deal if you're town!

[Auro]

My team wants you to know that they've been screaming at me to vote nsg for the past hour

Dunn, has your whole team been following along? Do any of them have any other thoughts to offer?

No they haven't. Somebody thinks cheeky is obv town, they think ff is being put up as a coutner wagon

They haven't been following along, yet spent an hour screaming at you to vote NSG?

[Auro]

NSG is playing in team mafia games that are not this one.

I know. What I'm surprised at is their insistence for you to lynch NSG *now* without following the game itself, given "NSG played in other games" held true throughout; while you said it's a better D2/D3 lynch

[Auro]

I just refuse to accept that this supposedly legendary town player thinks the right move is to do nothing and hope not to be night killed. Sorry, I'm not buying it. Gtfo.

What's confusing is: if FF and Gob are town, then why did NSG bother voting FF anyway? A townflip prolly looks worse on NSG than her continuing to not contribute.
Although she'd have to post something anyway to avoid force replacement.
Although as scum she could've chosen a different wagon entirely, taking advantage of last-day chaos. Or even Gobble, to be honest, given the relative resistance.

[Auro]

We have different thoughts because we are different people

My team isn't looking at my iso, they're giving me their thoughts

I'm told that nsg being unable to do anything in this game is her scum meta, and that she's really bad at scum

Surely you would've told them your thoughts on NSG before; why would they need to look at your ISO?

What was the subject of discussions about this game a few days ago? Did they not know NSG was un-prioritizing this game?

Even then, I find it weird that with all that happened in the game especially in the last few pages, they insisted on a sudden NSG lynch *without* following the game.

[Auro]

i apologize if this is frustrating, but my team unanimously agrees that it's best for me to spend my time elsewhere. if i don't get nightkilled this game will be my first priority tomorrow.

KittyMo, this is from this game.

[Auro]

I literally think that team decided to blatantly give up on this game and she only posted at all because if replaced she can't play other games anymore.

Why they'd give up is also baffling, as NSG isn't incompetent as scum, and RC could easily coach her. But if she has bad teammates, perhaps they would indeed write it off...

[Auro]

I'm not sure if this was pointed out earlier but if FF flips town after her hop on then isn't it scum suicide?

Yeah I posted this a page ago, I'm really really confused.

[Auro]

Why is it implausible disengaged scum Gobble would forgetfully post this?

Premised on Gobble being coached, or at least discussing things in the scum PT before posting.

[Auro]

Formerfish

VOTE: FF

L-1

[Auro]

get rekt

UNVOTE:

[Auro]

get rekt

UNVOTE:

I don't even care why that of all things made you unvote, somewhere along the way I started thinking you were town

Lol no man, the damn mobile site covers the submit button the moment I type something, so I'm forced to quote random shit to post.

[Auro]

On his last thread entrance before this he was called out for possibly being too coached/tactical, and then came back the opposite. He does come off better in reentrance #2 than in #1, but it's ... also a little jarring

Exactly, so if coaching is a major part of why he's scumread, this weakens it to me.

[Auro]

Klick thinks FF is a bad lynch, and as that is the most trustworthy take I have access to and I was on the fence about it anyway, I'm gonna go ahead and not vote there. I will vote nsg or gobble.

I didn't find any mention of FF during the wagoning where you voted Gobble instead - did you independently think it was a bad lynch when FF was wagoned? What was your read then?

[Auro]

My partners have been pretty mum about my game because I’ve been absent from it for a large portion of it.

Wait what? So they'd read the game only if you're present?

[Auro]

How long to deadline?

[Auro]

Small observation: NSG pushed FF when Gobble was the counterwagon, but Gobble is pushing NSG when she's the counterwagon.

[Auro]

FF, I'm still undecided: can we talk?

[Auro]

Sure, I'm not sure how productive it'll be right now.

That's fine. Would you be giving a detailed readslist of all slots?

[Auro]

Be fine*

[Auro]

I don't want to fish them out (heh) from your prior posts. I want a summary of your current thoughts now.

And a paraphrase of your discussions with your team re: this game.

[Auro]

I realized just now that half the time I post I don't finish thoughts, like that 2nd paragraph, I was saying if it turned out the way it did for CT do you think it'll turn out better for you?

Can't turn out worse

But yeah, a snapshot of your current thoughts + more importantly, your team conversation would help me greatly to see that you're a mislynch if you're town.

[Auro]

If you're town, there must be some discussion about gamesolves for this game, right? While if you're scum there wouldn't. So I want access to them, and paraphrasing is allowed.

[Auro]

I don't think anyone on my team has read any of the other games.

Only Nancy read my game and had the same thoughts so there's nothing much in terms of discussions, but yeah, I'd like to hear whatever FF has to offer.

@FF or is there nothing and you guys haven't discussed at all? That's okay too, except it's the most likely thing that'll convince me not to lynch you.

[Auro]

FF.

[Auro]

If you're town, there must be some discussion about gamesolves for this game, right? While if you're scum there wouldn't. So I want access to them, and paraphrasing is allowed.

FF, this is something specific. Do you not believe me when I say a summary of your team's discussion would help? I definitely have been townread before when I showed my Hydra thoughts.


Also I know you have content and posts. I'm asking for a summary of them, in a single post. It's a bit of busy work, but also a great starting point to discuss things.

[Auro]

satisfy your need to read me

This isn't some strange desire, I *want* to townread you if you're town, because I don't want a mislynch, so...?

[Auro]

I've mostly been venting about what's been going on in the game and they are talking me off the ledge of doing stupid things. We aren't reading each other's games, but we use the topic to talk about things and get their reads on what I'm seeing here.

Yes, so I want a loose paraphrase of the messages themselves.
Like:
"I said this, then X said that, then I said that"

[Auro]

Yes, so I want a loose paraphrase of the messages themselves.
Like:
"I said this, then X said that, then I said that"

@FF

It doesn't matter that your reads are biased. I'd not give much weight to wagon comp in this setup, would rather focus on individual scum equity.

[Auro]

Lately it's been about what NSG could be doing. The pop in and push on me made a little sense to me because RC has a history of success with pushing a mislynch on me when playing as scum. Would he have NSG vote me here and base it off his ability to read me?

My team wasn't on much, but they talked me out ifbswlf hammering because when I flippped green you guys would have known NSG was scum and we could stop this shit tomorrow.

I'm sorry man, but a brief tl;Dr is not what I'm looking for, but a paraphrasing of the messages themselves.

In this format.
"I said this
He said that
She said this
So I said that"

Etc.

[Auro]

@Ceph: I can paraphrase what little discussions I have had with my teammates , but there's something very specific I'm looking for here with FF I'll explain later.

[Auro]

Yeah, I'm not doing that.

Can you specify why not?

[Auro]

TM Rules: They may not copy and paste text OUT of their PT/DC into game threads.

Yes, but paraphrasing is okay.

[Auro]

Pedit- I paraphrased. You want me to expand on the paraphrasing

Paraphrase on a message level I mean.

"I said I wanted to selfhammer, then X said I shouldn't, I asked why, and X said it's bad for the gamestate, I brought up NSG, Y disagreed"

This doesn't flout rules. Why can't you do this?

[Auro]

Eh no, there's not much but there's something.
Random example from the middle:

Me: I'm the leading wagon, for shitty reasons
Nancy says it often happens in my town games and I should point it out, but be careful not to turn out like elements
I say it's not grounds for a modkill, it's not a trust tell
She said do whatever I need to to obvtown
I say I wish Nancy was in this game alongside, as she'd recognize me town for the same reasons people were scumreading me for
She asks me to link a few town games and scum games, I say there's no point, she says it can't get worse

Etc etc

[Auro]

Wait a minute. Reundo is on your team? Waiiit a minute.
Can you *please* *please* ask him to read the whole game and give his solve?

[Auro]

I will hang Dann or Auro right now, CT maybe her arguments against me feel very contrived, but she claims a case is coming, so...

Was there any discussion in your PT about this?

[Auro]

Apologies in advance, I know this is highly annoying.

What about mid game discussions? Before people started wagoning you. Can you give me that?

[Auro]

Thanks a lot, FF. That helps a lot.
Could you also ask if Reundo can prioritize this game a bit and offer detailed thoughts of his own, too?

[Auro]

Cheeky, I'm beginning to think NSG is a fine lynch at this point. I've sortaaaa lost heart in an FF lynch. Idk.

[Auro]

Hmm hmm hmm

[Auro]

I am

curious to see the flip.

Detective

Pikachu was a boring movie btw.

[Auro]

AKA NSG is L-1 right now

VOTE: NSG
Just in case

[Auro]

I'm definitely going to be the Night Kill, was fun playing with y'all!

[Auro]

Dunn NSG trajectory scummy

[Auro]

Good idea auro, you shouldnt agree with me because it could cause a paradox rift in spacetime

Dunn defends NSG, she tells him in scum PT she's not gonna play the game, scumteam realizes she'll get lynched at some point for sure, so Dunn sets himself up to go deep.

There's a change in his trajectory towards NSG without any *new* information, I can elaborate more on this in the morning

[Auro]

Espe seems like the obvious choice, I'm interested to know why Dunn is unsure. Too scummy to be scum?

[Auro]

FF is probably town.

VOTE: formerfish

i think this is the only current wagon likely to hit scum.

The way nsg pops in here, puts down the vote, and then ducks out doesn't strike me as likely to be SvS. Especially the wording of this post, "i think this is the only current wagon likely to hit scum," she's careful to not even express a scum read on FF. It would be a very strange bus if it was one.

Unless NSG didn't want us to sheep the FF vote, which we would've if she actually cased. Instead, lay a naked vote, and have the third scum try to distract to an entirely new wagon...
Like Dunn->Gobble

Sorry for the tinfoil lol

[Auro]

Dong feels town because of his attacks D2, there's no agenda - will check if he's the kinda scum player who plans their attacks. Also, I think KittyMo NK would've been from someone familiar with her.

[Auro]

That's not a scum post, that's a Dong post.

[Auro]

It sucks and she's doing us a disservice but I don't think that's a good reason to be wagoning her

Dunn, this was an early game post where you recognized she played in other games and not this one, but dismissed it as a legitimate reason to wagon her.

But they also told me that NSG is playing in other games and so she is scum in this game, and I agreed with that, then they basically said "so vote her"

They told you? We already pointed it out in the thread by that time and you had your thoughts formed on it already, that it "sucks and is a disservice" but a "bad reason to wagon".

You said your teammates were shouting at you for a hour to vote NSG and that felt fake.

Your posts seeking an NSG replacement also seem to come from a scum perspective than a town one.

You tried to divert to Gobble during late D1 wagons.

You tested out a BBMolla push too during late D1 wagons.

[Auro]

Again, my teammates having opinions that differ from what I said earlier in the thread on my own is not a contradiction

It isn't, but your agreement with them while also disagreeing with the same point made in

this

thread is a contradiction.

I'll stash this push for now, and focus more on Dong/Esp.

[Auro]

Whatever nsg flips doesnt mean anything. Scum can say "durr if hes town/scum then so and so is scum!!" since they know the flip beforehand. What all of you need to do now is shut up about it, we'll know her role in a few hours.

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=78159&user_select[]=26707

Short ISO read, a towngame of his I was in. His somewhat eccentric admonishing of people is present there also.

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=78192&user_select[]=26707

Here too.

[Auro]

I'm interested in a holistic case on Dong rather than individual posts that come off scummy.

[Auro]

There was never a valid point raised on her.

Oh c'mon, she herself admitted before she's a lot more interested in playing town than scum, then spends her time playing her teammate's games (again, by her own admission) and avoiding this one.
Even if you "never believe Meta", this was always a legitimate argument for her scum.

@Dunn can you explain why you found that post scummy?

[Auro]

Lol? I already said that was my suspect list for tomorrow. Today its just you, and i think your fates been sealed

"Shading NSG/voting for someone else" he posted this explaining 1294,1295

[Auro]

Eurgh, I need a computer, will be back laterrr