Newbie 2038: Elements [Game Over]

[Mizzytastic]

Hi, I suck at this game. I'm playing a newbie cos I keep getting over stressed in other queues and struggling to get through them.

[Mizzytastic]

VOTE: AGamblingPig

Try new things. Find out today if joining a wagon is right for you!

[Mizzytastic]

A trio of questions.


For everyone, what's your experience with mafia?

I've been into social deduction games for a while. I've played in about 8 games on site over 4 years but gotten burnt out a lot due to stress/mental health. I'm love modding and think I'm good at mechanical stuff and picking up theory quickly, but I suck at the social and emotional side and I've decided to play out my remaining newbie games before I go back to other queues.


@72offsuit, get called out for spamming a lot? Seemed like a bit of a sensitive response there


@c4e5g3d5, could you answer 72 asking why spam is bad, been as you vote him for it after he asked, please

(I have my own thoughts as to why spamming bad but want to hear this first)

[Mizzytastic]

Ok, lets phrase this another way. Do you think spam is alignment indicative?

[Mizzytastic]

So if it's just RVS is there a reason you created a second wagon instead of joining the existing one?

[Mizzytastic]

I think c4's response is +town (not worried about defending self, comfortable with rvs being a good enough reason).

I took a peek at some of 72's games and he seems to post a lot. I think activity is NAI and spam is anti-town in general but his reaction to being called on it feels +town. Scum are less comfy expressing that sort of frustration.

hunterr feels like he voted something he thought would be easy and other people were already expressing thoughts about. It's light but VOTE: hunterr

[Mizzytastic]

@cylstar, any reason you decided not to vote?

[Mizzytastic]

Expressing your thoughts is fine and NAI (well, depends on the thoughts). I think your intent was manoeuvring early onto what could be an easy wagon based on stuff you knew other people were thinking about too.

I also just like to play the early game aggro cos I think making noise is good to get the game moving as town, and easy town points to claim as scum.

pedit: cos Egix asked before 72's 'no u' of a response. And his reasoning sounded more obviously RVS whereas c4 sounded like he could be making a legit vote.

[Mizzytastic]

Also, I thought he could be doing the same thing I think you were doing, but his later responses suggested he wasn't.

You also didn't ask Egix, what's your reason?

[Mizzytastic]

My read is he was being very terse with me and scum don't want to be confrontational like that. If he was claiming RVS in a softer more buddy buddy way I'd be more suspicious.

Also you literally asked "Why spam bad?"

[Mizzytastic]

Ok, and if you are unsatisfied with his responses instead of (or in addition to, I'm flexible) saying you don't think I pushed hard enough why don't you push there more?

[Mizzytastic]

hunterr feels like he voted something he thought would be easy and other people were already expressing thoughts about. It's light but VOTE: hunterr

Because this is more important to address. I also don't play aggressive in RVS, but you said that you did. If someone is apathetic about the game I would expect someone that supposedly plays "aggressive" to target them.

You can address both at the same time though?

And I did target him, I questioned him, got responses, and came to a conclusion based on the tone of those responses, which I then shared.

[Mizzytastic]

@cylstar, any reason you decided not to vote?

it really is as simple as not being sure of how to vote.
VOTE: c4e5g3d5?

And the follow up is now you are voting, why are you voting there? Do you have any thoughts about what me and hunterr have had to say about c4?

[Mizzytastic]

2. No. You can easily have a read through my other games. Just click my name, then search user's topics or posts.

I did go and look at your games. I determined you post a lot and mentioned it in thread. Reading through to see if you've been called out for spamming is a lot more effort when I can just ask you? Plus I'd like to interact with you cos that's how sorting goes

Also if you'd read my own answer for experience you could probably have guessed that I could find out other peoples games even if you never reached the post where I said I had looked at yours.

This response kinda bugs me. It feels like you are brushing me off while being a "helpful SE" instead of actually engaging with what I was doing.

[Mizzytastic]

Plus if that response to being asked not to spam was just shitposting instead of actual frustration then I don't think it's +town any more.

[Mizzytastic]

I read it as frustration cos it was an in your face 'no u' sort of response, that I could imagine coming from someone who was sick of being told not to spam, which is the sort of thing I think scum is more likely to bottle up in order to get along.

And the point of my question was to determine if I was right in reading it as frustration, and to get you to say more on the subject so I could get more nuance on your tone. It's also just an in to further conversation that might help with sorting in the future - whether that's you sorting me, me sorting you or someone else looking at us. I think interaction between people is very important for creating sortable material, even if it doesn't help at the time.

[Mizzytastic]

I'm a recovering wallposter, I try to say stuff as I think of it to stop creating giant walls no one reads.

[Mizzytastic]

I mean, yeah, it is. I did say why I try to do this as either alignment and the scum reason is LAMIST

[Mizzytastic]

It's site etiquette to say when you put someone one vote from an elimination like that.

The site has it's moments with toxicity but probably not as much as you are used to if that's how you define where you play. Newbie queue in particular is quite strict about that.

It's forum mafia on the site known for longer more real life friendly days, if you aren't a fan of long form it's not gonna be changing.

Pedit: profanity is fine rules wise, tonal reads like that depend on the player reading

[Mizzytastic]

Also I have thoughts about that wagon but I'm ill (not covid) so you'll get them through phone posting when my head is a bit more clear

[Mizzytastic]

My take on aggro here is making a lot of noise and pushing weak reads early to try and get out of RVS. I might be wrong on you but our interaction is almost certainly AI on page two. That's what I'm going for

c4's demeanour is unhelpful. It's either a personality tell and so NAI or it leans town because scum want to fit in. I don't know which bit it's enough to say +town.

I think the wagon lends credence to town!c4 too. Even for a mostly RVS wagon I think scum are less likely to wagon their partner like that, especially in a newbie game. Accidental hammers happen.

[Mizzytastic]

Mizzy vs 72 in posts 61-69 feels passive-aggressive from both sides, more from Mizzy especially in post 69.

I can't talk for 72 but I felt like his response was being unhelpful masquerading as 'SE help' and I felt a bit talked down to, considering if he's responding to my questions he's read my post about my experience and should be able to guess I can find other people's games. Combined with feeling grotty in general I can totally imagine coming across that way.

[Mizzytastic]

I could vote cyl or Bipolar right now. I wanna hear from them both before hand though.

hunterr's unvote is making me move him back towards town. Its easy to unvote at E-1 early for town points but his reasoning beyond that felt genuine to me

[Mizzytastic]

But now I'm gonna take some paracetamol and try to sleep

[Mizzytastic]

1. Your use if the word masquerading implies im not acting in good faith... IE: i have an alterior motive, which only scum has.
Yet you dont put me in among ur 'ppl u want to vote' pool

Vote early for pressure, late for elim. I don't think me voting you changes the results of our interactions much. I think cyl and Bipolar pressure is more likely to create useful info.

Also there are definitely other reasons this could be happening (e.g. Me butthurt and grumpy, you react) than scum alterior motive

[Mizzytastic]

This feels like classic newbscum.

Mindset preoccupied with people earning town points, because thats what Mazzy themself are trying to do as scum - trying to appear town.

Are you seriously saying the only reason I could be considering whether or not someone is trying to look town is because I am doing that myself? And not cos we are trying to find the people trying to look town?

[Mizzytastic]

I voted c4 because I didn't necessary like his tone as other people have said. I am considering voting 72 since he seems to be quite defensive. Can someone tell me if that is more scummy?

You didn't say that though. Your reasoning could totally be read as "this is my rvs vote, I only just figured out how to do it."

And the 72 comment sounds like putting out feelers to see if it will go. VOTE: cylstar

I'm gonna VOTE: Unvote Hunterr

He's not leaning scum for me. With that I will VOTE: vote BiPolar because of the stigma of mental illness.

Just kidding. I'm voting BP because the whole "can I swear" thing and the follow up when it got a response reads enough like newbscum trying to ingratiate themself to the town that I want to explore that possibility with some bandwagoning.

I prefer cyl from the c4 wagon but this is good town thinking. Honestly I don't think they are likely to both be scum and think duelling wagons there could be interesting for sorting.

[Mizzytastic]

That's not RVS then. That's a game related reason for voting him.

Can you give reasons why other people feel townie? I feel like there are players who have said as much or less substantive stuff than Pig

[Mizzytastic]

You didn't say that though. Your reasoning could totally be read as "this is my rvs vote, I only just figured out how to do it."

And the 72 comment sounds like putting out feelers to see if it will go. VOTE: cylstar

So your attacks are:
1. Not immediately stating reasoning, but then doing so when asked, which is a valid attack, uh, never?
2. Asking for affirmation on a read... in a mfn newbie game

I still have more reading to do to catch up but this is just gross. VOTE: Mizzytastic

-- reads snipped--

I think it could be trying to pass it off as an RVS vote. I feel like it has a reason or doesn't as suits her.

Like your tone that I made a read off earlier, cyl's behaviour can be NAI, but when looking for affirmation on a read is AI it leans scum. It's about trying to fit in and trying to find if what you want to do can get off the ground. I'm pretty sure Egix is thinking similar things to. She could just be a new player who isn't confident in her reads, but I'm voting there to try and work that out. As I said, early for pressure, late to elim. I also think competing wagons between cyl and Bipolar are a good way to try and sort what happened on your wagon.


As for the rest of your reads, do you think doing SE stuff is AI? Cos that's the extent what you have to say about both 72 and egix. You are voting on me with 72 but from your reads list it'd sound like he hadn't done anything game relevant.

Do you agree or disagree with Pig's townread

How did you get Pig's only read is a town read from him voting that person?

[Mizzytastic]

sorry, toneread, misread

[Mizzytastic]

Ignore that last bit. I was about to go off on Pig for not noticing how innacurate your take on him was and it made me re-read

[Mizzytastic]

We're comfortably out of RVS and have plenty of info to go off of now. VOTE: cylstar please answer my question

You townlock c4 based on a post where he decides to vote me, then vote with me in the next post. It feels like a contradiction

[Mizzytastic]

@cyl - I appreciate the sentiment but you don't need to worry about pushing me, it's part of the game. If you want to vote me you should vote me. If not I'm still kind of confused why you mentioned me in the first place in that post?

I'm doing better now btw. Slept all day the next day and now I'm more or less back to normal other than my sleep schedule being even more busted than before

[Mizzytastic]

muh316 -- hmmm

hmmm

Got anything to add to the game?

What's your read on hunter?

Why specifically hunterr? So far you've come to his defence by attacking me when I was voting him, and now you are specifically curious for a read on him. Is there a reason?

[Mizzytastic]

I think it could be trying to pass it off as an RVS vote. I feel like it has a reason or doesn't as suits her.

And my 72 vote is different how?

As for the rest of your reads, do you think doing SE stuff is AI? Cos that's the extent what you have to say about both 72 and egix. You are voting on me with 72 but from your reads list it'd sound like he hadn't done anything game relevant.

Yes, just not very. Everything that's come from 72 and Egix so far looks easy for SE scum to fake. Still makes them a little more likely to be town than an SE who is doing nothing.

Your reason is explicit to begin with so that's different. But like I said to hunterr, I initially thought you could be doing the same thing I thought he was doing - finding an easy spot to vote.

It was your terse/unhelpful tone when (lightly) pressed that made me think you were more likely to be town, you didn't seem at all worried about the impression you made. cyl is blatantly worried about the impression she is making and trying to fit in. These could be personality tells for the both of you and NAI, but if they aren't yours leans town and hers leans scum.

That makes sense with regards to SEs. Still curious that you don't mention anything about 72's content while voting the same person he is though. Any thoughts there, beyond agreeing enough to vote in the same place?

[Mizzytastic]

-- quote chain snipped--

Where did 72 come to my defense?

I attack you, he immediately decides to go for me. If you two are scum together, or even if he is scum with some other interest with you (trying to pocket, etc.) it's a chainsaw defence.

It could also be that he coincidentally found me scummy and isn't defending you but it felt connected from my perspective at the time and now there is another post from him weirdly focused on you and it starts to look like a pattern.

[Mizzytastic]

One of the few things Egix has said is generally agreeing with my take on cyl (his own words but same sort of ideas about trying to fit in/tray the waters). He's only mentioned me directly in reference to cyl's comments about

wanting to vote me but finding me town but etc...

In that context wouldn't it be odd for him to suddenly join my wagon?

[Mizzytastic]

I'm winding down for bed right now so you'll get more tomorrow but one thing stood out to me about the catch up and one thing is just bugging me in general and I went be able to turn me brain off otherwise.

On muh and 72, you like muh for calling out the weird hunterr question but also like 72 for not responding and telling him just to answer anyway. I know muh has barely said anything and it sucks but is answering a question you are suspicious about the right solution? You also like hunterr for calling the question, but not as much as muh cos muh said it first - I mentioned it before either of them and you don't mention it despite mentioning a lot of my posts. It feels like trying to look like you have thoughts about something people find important, but they don't make sense with each other.

More generally. muh is saying not much. It's bad. We all agree he should say more. Can someone give me a scum intent for still not trying after people really start calling it out and voting there? Cos right now it feels policy elimy to me.

[Mizzytastic]

I've been in bed with a headache most of today and I'm busy the next 4 hours so I've only really skimmed. I'll try and catch up before bed depending on how tired I feel. This is the stuff that stood out to me on a skim.


Based on the vote count at the top of the page (I know it's changed since), I would be very surprised if all 4 of those 2-vote wagons are on town. Scum have 4 different players to pick from there and it feels odd to me that they'd pick in a way that produces that split. It also makes JDye's decision note to vote his lowest read feel like it's less scummy unless muh-JDye is exactly the team. It's SO easy for scum to vote there, as a replacement coming in with new perspectives onto a player the momentum of the day is turning against. Not that I like the no voting, especially when it's leaving the old vote instead of an actual unvote.

Activity isn't necessarily an alignment tell. For Egix at least I can say I've seen them be low activity as town, and in a mish mash game I ran as a scum role that is specifically trying to look as town as possible (instead of town enough to get someone else elimmed). I might have read a game he was in as scum, but I don't remember one and I've definitely not been involved in one.

@muh - I wasn't talking about anyone specifically with my question about scum intent for the way you've lurked, just the general feel from the game as a whole turning in your direction. You were a good policy elim if that activity level continued but a policy elim in general is a last resort or a "oh god I don't want this in ELo".

My thoughts were people seemed to be scum reading you for it, and if you are strategically lurking as scum (as opposed to, y'know, busy) and you have a choice to pull yourself up when you get pressured, you do. You have to be genuinely busy or very confident in being able to pull off TSTBS otherwise.

However, no one feels town enough to you to even give a slight lean?

@AGamblingPig - that's a weird way to phrase something about a group of 3 you are included in. Why do you think that?

[Mizzytastic]

@cyl: Site rules prohibit talking about someone replacing as it relates to the game because it can be seen as outside interference. I know that's not what you are saying but it's worth getting out there.

Because of the above rule you should treat that slot with the same thoughts you had as before until the new player does something to change it.

Going back to something you mentioned a while back, you mentioned playing other social deduction games, but never specifically replyed to my question about experience. I'd really like to hear an answer, including those other social deduction games, because more than anyone else I think you are the player getting read most based on apparent experience.


pedit @JDye: That's not how site meta works here (and I'm pretty sure there's maths to back it up, but I'm too busy to go find it/produce it myself right this second), and if you believe that I'm surprised it didn't get explained in your previous game. Site standards are light on night actions and focus on day play compared to a lot of other places. The vote is a town controlled kill, the only other kills are mafia kills that are never gonna hit scum. Even if town is worse than rand d1, over the length of a game town getting more chances to kill mafia is better for town when you can't rely on getting useful night results. No elim also puts us on an even player count which is harder for town to get enough consensus to eliminate mafia with majority voting and leaves town with more town members alive at the important get it right or lose eliminations which makes it harder to correctly identify scum. Plus a vote does more than eliminate - it's also a tool for pressure and communication.

All that said, if you think no elimination is better for town why weren't you pushing for it?

[Mizzytastic]

Do you think activity is alignment indicative then? I feel like it can be for individual players but most of the time it's play style or real life indicative

[Mizzytastic]

All over the place is probably right. I tend to just spew thoughts and point at what feels off to me. It's probably to the deficit of my scum game cos I'm not great at faking stuff to find off, as much as I am aware of my playstyle and try to imitate it as scum. I used to be a massive wall poster and this style has actually reduced how much I say.

I'm pretty bad at distilling it all into correct reads tho. I have to rely on theory and heuristics a lot because I'm not actually any good at getting at someone's intent.

I would really prefer not to be called a spaz though :/

[Mizzytastic]

We've not really meshed as a group of players. It happens some times and it is generally bad for town. I don't know how to fix it though. The d1n1 flips can sometimes help because it builds narratives. But you can't rely on it cos scum can kill to try and maintain town apathy.

I've backed off a bit between real life stuff and cos my activity level felt like it was smothering instead of encouraging in this group but I plan to be around and catching up for an hour or two later on. I need to solidify on who I want to consider for elim instead of voting cyl cos I wanted to sort.

[Mizzytastic]

Sorry, I tried to catch up but my brain is jelly right now. I did get some thoughts on cyl though.

Specifically in reference to cyl, I'm trying to work out how I feel about her just not seeming to care about the wagon on her. I was hoping that pressure would help resolve the slot but she's just kept acting the same way. My hopes were that if she was town the pressure might poke her into revealing her alignment but she just seems unfazed and I'm trying to work out how that fits in with the rest of what we've seen of her.

Cyl, you've not really responded to any of the pressure on you, is there a reason why?


I also kinda like her vote on AGamblingPig and dunno if it comes from scum in that position. It's a heck of a time to start a vanity wagon, under pressure and with other viable wagons you won't get stick for joining - it looks to me like someone voting who they think is most likely to be scum without wider strategic considerations. I've also been starting to feel that of all the lurkers Pig looks the most like someone who could be doing it strategically, I remember liking the thought in one of his posts but viewed as a whole it's underwhelming without ever being egregiously so. I guess we'll see with his reads list.

[Mizzytastic]

You are right, it doesn't apply. As I said, brain jelly. Not helped by the fact I can't sleep

[Mizzytastic]

I think I conflated it with her reads list - I could've sworn she unvoted then revoted recently. Which actually makes it look scummier then, like she's making the list fit her vote, even though she called the vote rvs. Then she goes and says she doesn't know why she put pig there but doesn't actually change anything.

[Mizzytastic]

I thought you placed your vote at a different time then you did and changed my read based on that when corrected

[Mizzytastic]

Need to consolidate on a kick for today with deadline fast approaching, and need enough time for a claim as well.

The fact cylstar is at E-2 and was still sitting on a solo GamblingPig wagon, whom noone really expressed interest in kicking throughout the thread, ie not being survivalistic, alone points towards more likely !towncyl than !scumcyl imo.

I could totally join you there. I'm more mixed on cyl but I agree with your take on Pig, think you are probably town (other than a weird relationship with the hunterr slot but that'd be a pre flip associative) and cyl basically hasn't responded to pressure so seeing how she respond to this might be more helpful. And you are right on the consolidation totally.

Yeah, I've talked myself into it

VOTE: AGamblingPig

Bit surprised by your reads list (no town leans at all, really?) but I think you'd know it looks weird and could manufacture one or two as scum to make it stand out less.

[Mizzytastic]

Didn't 72 update where c4 is in the reads list after that?

[Mizzytastic]

Goddammit. I move off cyl and she says something like that? I like the case 72 has (and scum!72 already has at least one own wagon with more than a vanity vote on it so I don't see the opportunism) but I don't like voting with her. I'd definitely prefer cyl or pig over muh or 72, though I really doubt they are both scum here.

I really need to look at the "safe seats" more and see what I think of them. Hopefully brain will cooperate :/

[Mizzytastic]

Did you find what you were looking for about no elims and the stats? What put Pig up to good enough candidate for you when 72 is voting there. You seem more confident on 72 than I am on cyl and it gave me uncertainties.

I'm kinda busy right now gonna be around this evening. I won't be awake at deadline but I'll get pretty close with my current sleep schedule.

Someone should intent on pig ASAP so we have the possibility of getting a claim and moving elsewhere, though I kinda doubt it at this speed of game.

[Mizzytastic]

Take big issue with Egix and Mizzy forgetting this is a newbie game (re: cyl).

I find this misrepresentitive. We are disagreeing on how we read her brand off newness, but in my case and from what Egix has said both our reads are informed specifically by her being new.

Do you think it's alignment indicative? If you do, then do you think a scum team of me and Egix make votes 1 and 2 on what you are saying scum see as a low hanging fruit wagon with a very similar read? Do you think scum!me leaves that wagon like I did?

If you think it's bad sport separate from alignment I'll remind you that although I'm not a typical newbie and am comfortable with some parts (mechanical/theory) of the site and game I'm not eligible to be an SE and am playing here cos I struggle with some of the more emotional parts of the game - this is part of my learning experience too. I also think it's totally fair for someone to use what experience they have with new players to inform their reads on new players.

[Mizzytastic]

Is your read on Egix and Muh based on anything other than activity?

[Mizzytastic]

I'm doing other stuff but checking semi regularly if anyone wants to interact with me.

[Mizzytastic]

I'm sorry, but there does come a point at which you can't just give someone a pass for being new. Still have to find scum somewhere, you know?

Yeah, there's a point at which you have to read new players, but with LAMIST? Come on, no.

I know this is directed at Egix but you are accusing me of the same stuff so I just want to say you and I have a very different interpretation of LAMIST. I'm saying she's trying overly hard not to rock the boat and making sure the things she does doesn't upset people. She doesn't want people looking at her, she wants people overlooking her because she hasn't ruffled feathers.

I also had some questions earlier about whether you see me and Egix as a partnership cos it seems like bad scum strategy the way we treated the cyl slot. I'd still like to hear an answer about that.

Do you think cyl's newness is town!newb or NAI newb?

I'm doing other stuff but checking semi regularly if anyone wants to interact with me.

Hammer Muh and save me.

Convince me. Your case on muh is weaker than the case on you from my point of view, you don't have intent on you, and we already have a claim and would prefer to avoid more.

[Mizzytastic]

Mafia might choose to no kill gambit but I doubt it. Pretty sure setup is designed to disincentivise that but someone might try to be clever. If they have it probably benefits us anyway.

You can forget but with two players and probably a mod reminder at 24 hours I doubt it.

Assuming neither of those weird situations...


Doc, you know a member of the town, you shouldn't share it today unless you have to claim, enjoy the free read

JK, you know someone is either town or the attempted killer, you shouldn't share either, but hopefully the polarised position helps your read


Now, unless someone wants to disagree with me about the above from a mech perspective can we quietly celebrate our good fortune and stop taking about power roles?

I shall now return to trying to sleep

[Mizzytastic]

Sorry about the prod, bit of a mental health crisis here this last week but I'll try and push through. I can respond to stuff as it bugs me fine but I don't have a great holistic feel of the game state.

Something game relevant so it is a valid prod response incase I pass out...

This turned into more of a post than I intended...

@72 Why is a jk more likely to have hit the killer than the target? Surely it'd be dependent on the jk's intent?

@c4 Still haven't answered my questions from yesterday. I'll make it easy for you and repost them so you don't have to go digging

Do you think me and egix are scummy for our treatment of cyl or just bad sports playing a newbie game that way?
If you think it's scummy do you think we make sense as a team with the strategy of being votes 1 and 2 on that wagon for very similar reasons?
If I am scum do you think my leaving LHFtown!cyl to join what turned out to be LHF town Pig at that time makes any sense as scum beyond the WIFOM scum!me is getting from asking these questions? If I don't leave there I think cyl has really good equity for being the wagon that goes through.

Also DADV was true cos Pig is dead, we know that now. Though hardly deader air than the rest of the game. muh wasn't the leading wagon

[Mizzytastic]

Egix is the sort of player I find super frustrating to read. I know this is in his town range from another game, I know that he gets pressure for it (up to and including leading wagon - can't remember if he got miselimed that game) as town and considering 40ish games played probably isn't changing any time soon. I also understand why he get seen as scummy and that scum can benefit from his playstyle. I guess he's just a good case of why what you are looking for with scumhunting is intent.

Don't really have any good ideas though, just frustration

[Mizzytastic]

Also, something that is bugging me but I dunno how to turn into scumhunting. From other town perspectives I should be one of the grosser votes on Pig. Middle is often where scum join from a VCA perspective, I showed some interest in moving off cyl cos it was an early vote intended to sort, but I didn't show my working on Pig before joining. I know I'm struggling to keep up with the game, was having some icky thoughts about Pig that I hadn't voiced super well and liked 72s case but you lot don't.

I just feel like someone should be giving me flack for it but I'm not sure what to make of the fact I'm not.

@JDye wrt cyl - because she's supposedly checked out from the game in apathy but the night action results have piqued her interest. Also floating mafia forgetting is kinda gross in general (it does happen occasionally but still...) but

that

is the sort of thing I am more willing to let go in a newbie game. If it is scum!cyl I would not be surprised in the slightest to learn that the scum cut it fine with getting their choice in last night tho.

[Mizzytastic]

I'm also leaning scum for egix, especially because of his last post.

I think we should look off the wagon, and maybe 72. I haven't made up my mind for 72 yet. I find muh to be sort of town now.

Can we get a more detailed why on any of those?

Also, what happened in between muh being your strongest scum read (reason being that refusing to answer that question was anti-town) after you lost your tone read on Pig to feeling like the people voting muh for refusing to answer that question were joining an easy wagon? Is that the only reason you didn't move from Pig to muh when your read on Pig faded? And what makes him sort of town now?

[Mizzytastic]

If I can't case something more interesting cyl is my default vote before night. I'm just scared that the apathy is genuine I guess. I'm gonna try and reread and if I don't see something juicy from that I probably will

[Mizzytastic]

How does innocent until proven guilty not just make everyone clear?

[Mizzytastic]

@c4 - the point I was making between me and Egix is don't you think we would avoid voting the same place for similar reasons with no town involvement at the time we voted?

With regards to my vote moving, the point I was making there was that the cyl wagon was going, I'd argue it stopped going because I moved. How does scum me protect anyone by leaving what you think was a town wagon that was chugging along nicely. I'd just be increasing the risk I come under pressure

I also find it weird you are shading both me and Egix for it after I had left


Also curious why you were so unhappy with me yesterday yet today you are going after Egix when I'm the one who was involved with the miselim,but that's a today question

[Mizzytastic]

Not saying I should be scum read, just that I think it's weird that no one has thoughts about it cos scum!me would pressure someone else in my position there and I dunno what to make of it not happening to me?

[Mizzytastic]

I'm not quite so comfy with cyl scum any more. It would totally follow (there is a reason she is LHF) and she's a good policy elim cos that's scary in endgameish situations but I think it's kinda obvious she doesn't care about this game any more whatever her alignment.

I've been reconsidering c4 from the perspective of someone who knew her alignment, thought she was likely to flip and tried to benefit from that but I'm worried I'm being omgusy.

We're already getting to the point we need to start coordinating and I hate it.

[Mizzytastic]

I didn't think much about it because at the time I said it it felt like the pressure was all activity based when it was kinda obvious he wasn't trying which I read as busy instead of alignment based. I agree he's gotten worse as he's talked.

I thought it could be omgusy cos it's informed specifically by interactions with me.

I was getting close to voting c4 but I'm curious why 72 is so happy voting there when he still has half his isos to go.

But we do need wagons - I'm not sure there is anyone here I have a confident scumread on VOTE: c4

[Mizzytastic]

Safebet is my most confident town read. I'd need to reconsider at endgame but he just sounds like he's putting lots of thought in to this game

72 I think is probably town. I don't think he needs to effort this much as scum

JDye sounds nice but I'm not as confident there. I think the way he joined the game is hard to do as scum but I need to iso and reread 72s case

I know I can't read players like Egix. I've found him a bit buddyish in the degree he's defended me but there's enough icky slots this game I'd prefer not to vote there today. If he is scum I would be surprised if his 3 scum reads is a legit rule of 3.

Cyl is the best policy elim as LHF but LHF tends to be town +rand and her apathy seems genuine

Nothing has particularly stood out to me about muh but his thoughts feel shallow and icky as the game progresses. Kinda uncomfortable with scum!muh not voting or efforting around deadline

I need to do another read here but my feelings about the slot are getting worse over the game. In particular he feels like someone trying to manipulate the game state and like he knows cyl's alignment and is trying to benefit from it. I don't think he's ever actually explained why cyl is town, just said its obvious and the people who don't see it are bad for not seeing it.


I guess this is more a where I want to vote list than a reads list. I would not be surprised to find out one scum is more in the middle here. Honestly my doubts about cyl and muh should make me less happy to vote there but I'm scared of how a final x situation handles having them around.

[Mizzytastic]

He is putting effort in though. Not to defend himself either but to try and produce reads. And a decent part of the player list has him as scummy and it's not changed his playstyle so I don't think he's doing it to get people to think he's town - if it is scum!72 I'm the only one he's really pocketed with it and he'd have found it easier if he didn't scum read over half the player list and hadn't been so hyperbolic. This game is dead, he doesn't need to produce that much text to look like he's trying to contribute.

Why do you think a cyl/72 team both vote AGP?

[Mizzytastic]

I know that. I'm pointing out one pocket isn't good enough if a lot of the town is against you for the same stuff.

I've not read it, I said I need to and I will, but tomorrow. I'm not supposed to be awake right now, its impacting my thinking quite badly, and if I'm right on what I see between cyl and c4 then it likely comes down to between you and him and I want to get it right.

But basically all tonight has been me trying to help cos I'm sick of how apathetic this game state is but I'm out of it and saying whatever comes to mind and it probably sounds less stream of consciousness than some players cos I'm good at pretty words

[Mizzytastic]

@mizzy

Do you think there is one scum on the AGP wagon and one off the AGP wagon? Do you think there is zero active scum, 1 active scum or 2 active scum? Why?

Probably. Neither AGP or town!muh is worth the effort of coordinating both onto to get them out in particular and if you do pick one an SE is probably the bigger threat if they do decide to up their game. I'm not sure why a partner would join scum!cyl to specifically get AGP out and think cyl is probably not at a very genuine seeming "I've given up on this game" with a partner backing her up and supporting in scum thread.

You could have scum!muh not voting and partner on AGP, but muh seems to be around enough when he wants to be since the initial few days where he was actually busy IMO that I doubt he doesn't show up to intent on AGP before you had to move there. No point risking it going the other way

Votes feel too unfocused for two active scum. We've got a whole bunch we find scummy and no consensus. I dunno if one active scum vs no active scum would actually feel that different and probably just comes down to playstyle of the partnership and the direction town is going by themselves.

I do think this is the point where scum!cyl's partner would be deciding if they bus with lower activity or exert charisma to try and move elim elsewhere and risk getting attention.

[Mizzytastic]

@72 what moved JDye temporarily from lockscum to scum read for you, before you moved him back?

Also if you liked my response to your initial push on my why didn't you act that way at the time?

[Mizzytastic]

I'm kinda tempted to just vote in JDye/72 right now. This doesn't feel TvT to me, I already think they are likely the scum on the AGP wagon, and I'm kinda feeling more and more that cyl and muh are both town, especially cyl.

Too many people look scummy this game >.<


Pedit: did you get any results from your reaction test?

[Mizzytastic]

c4 didn't but that seems to have been more of a day 2 read on your part. I certainly don't remember it informing anything you said about him day 1 but I'm happy to be corrected.

And if that was an intentional shit wagon why am I still in your massive pile of scum leans at the end if that day?

[Mizzytastic]

@72 what moved JDye temporarily from lockscum to scum read for you, before you moved him back?

Also if you liked my response to your initial push on my why didn't you act that way at the time?

He was always a scumread. Noone is strong scum day 1, despite what i write.

What moved c4 down then? You voted JDye after your c4 iso

And I'm still curious why I'm in your pile of scum leans end of day 1 if it was a reaction test, and why you left your vote there if it was just a reaction test.


UNVOTE:

Feel kinda gross voting with either of you right now unless it's for the other. And that "you two, vote" gave me bad feels, especially as I can see cyl seeing that and following without checking if it's a hammer


I'm also dipping for a bit, 3 hours sleep was not enough

[Mizzytastic]

Kinda feeling 72/Egix or JDye/c4 right now. Maybe either with muh but I do feel like scum!muh would be more proactive end of day 1

[Mizzytastic]

Pages 13 or 14. After the AGP wagon picks up, and as part of that I unvote cyl. He has a post in that time frame where he chooses to stick on cyl where I feel its kinda obvious momentum is more likely to land on him than 72 for a counterwagon. He also puts AGP as second scummiest to cyl. I feel like scum muh can put more effort in there - joining on AGP, defending himself.

Looking back it is a tighter time frame than I was remembering. So maybe he just got caught out. But when he was posting around then he didn't seem to have a sense of urgency about himself

[Mizzytastic]

After my initial light read on hunterr he felt generally town to me. I pushed him on an apparent contradiction but don't remember his response alerting me (the response generally being the important bit for intent cos town can be super inconsistent)

Safebet feels like he asks good questions about things that matter. Obviously I'd reassess him in a final x situation but I'm comfortable seeing him as town.

[Mizzytastic]

@mod we getting a delay on clock if cyl is replaced too?

VOTE: muh

That entrance was too egregious and the main thing making me think he was town is too tight a time frame. Feels like he is catching up, sees wagon, joins, sees me unvote and feels unable to stick there.

@safebet: it feels off to me. If anyone is tunneled based on votes it's Dye but 72 is the one who sounds it. It started up close to the end of the day which makes me feel like at least on participant cares about the elim more than the thoughts in the case. I feel like other than the question JDye wanted answered this could have been going on since the start of Day 2 but instead it flares up when there is voting pressure.

I also feel like 72s progression on me that I questioned at the same time doesn't super make sense with his actions. That biases me to one side of it being scum but also informed me saying that

[Mizzytastic]

enjoy apathyfest

[Mizzytastic]

I've personally been out of this game because of some insomnia problems kinda stopping me from being super into the game after the first few days. I certainly don't have a good grasp on the game. I try to contribute but I'm running mostly on gut and trying to interact with other players when my brain is kinda functional.

I also think a lot of the people that feel scummier are also the lower activity players and it's made it hard to really push the game forward unless two players capable of being higher post count bounce off each other.

e.g. cyl's been under pressure from on person or another for 1 1/2 days now and by the end of day 1 was at "I accept my death" when they had just stopped being a leading wagon


pedit: scum teams are what I thought made sense from how they've talked about each other and assuming teams across the two day 1 wagons, and feeling like JDye/72 felt SvT

cyl is a default cos she is just super LHF which is scary in a final situation and the suicidal apathy feels not alignment based cos it happened after she stopped being on the chopping block, and just cos there are too many people who feel off this game

muh's posting felt like they saw that wagon forming, decided to join, saw me leave, and decided to leave to. We're close to deadline but cyl was already one of those wagons. I guess it felt like "I don't care who dies". Also, I know I'm useless right now, safebet feels town to me so there is some amount of trusting them more than myslf right now

[Mizzytastic]

I hadn't considered it because I know a lot of it for me is game external. Scum aren't intentionally destroying my sleep schedule and exposing me to mental health triggers. Maybe other people feel differently? I remember some people day 1 having a positive response to my day 1 posting reducing so maybe it'd be worth checking who that was?

It felt like the apathy developed very naturally? We've had a bunch of replacements and low activity. And there wasn't an nk which is possibly the best scum tool for maintaining apathy. Maybe it's the lack of data? AGP didn't really interact so all we really get is the wagon composition. No one has really driven the game forward except 72/JDye in regards to each other today.

Honestly I in the player I could most easily case for intentionally fostering apathy would be me but I know I'm just having a shitty time. This game was supposed to be a lower stress environment for me to get through without replacing out. I won't cos God knows this game doesn't need another but I think I'll stick to modding for a good few months before trying again

[Mizzytastic]

Did someone stick out to you as fostering it?

[Mizzytastic]

Basically I'm pretty useless, i know that, I'm just trying to be around when I can so it's not just another dead slot but I'm running on gut cos it takes me half an hour to reread a page right now

[Mizzytastic]

By the DADV logic some people have applied 72 or ff are scum right? This is way busier than day 1 end. And those two slots presented that logic.

Safebet - how do you feel about fferyllt if you think 72/JDye is TvT?


72, it's the feeling unsure with your progression on me and JDye being absolutely right about how our votes have interacted making me paranoid.


I am kinda uncomfortable with fferyllt not voting, we need to compromise here but it seems like she might be trying to not have to get away with being the hammer to avoid making a stance. She's produced lots of thoughts about the game, and she needs to in that slot probably, but not enough to vote.

[Mizzytastic]

Egix, don't think Spangled is happening, where you at between muh, 72 and fferyllt?

[Mizzytastic]

I'm scum reading what feels like you could be making sure you align with me. I'm scum reading your progression on me as feeling like excuses after the fact to cover inconsistency. I'm thinking you and JDye is SvT cos I feel like TvT it just starts again at thread unlock and dominates the day.

I'm town reading you for the reasons you said you wouldn't do this as scum since before you said them. Loud piss everyone off dissenting view players are usually town unless meta evidence.

What it comes down to is you voting where I'm heading cos that's when it stops being a dissenting view. And it's happened twice and it's spooked me

[Mizzytastic]

If its town fferyllt one of 72 and muh is probably scum.

If it's town 72 I agree one of JDye and Spangled is prob scum.

I retreated to muh out of paranoia and the way he joined the c4 wagon bugging me.


VOTE: fferyllt

I think town ff has caught up enough to vote. And it's time to accept I might be wrong instead of waffling and go with what bugged me before people exerted charisma at me.

Pedit: I only skimmed your c4 case actually. I had my own stuff bugging me there

[Mizzytastic]

You had better be right or scum cos I'll have a hard time not voting you tomorrow if ff flips town

[Mizzytastic]

He seems fine. Only thing that's stood out is that nothing has and I think he's been pushing cylslot and muh as a team which feels super unconvincing. He could totally be the sort of player who says nice reasonable things and turns out to be scum (hunterr could have been too) but you tend to catch them after a partner falls. For a player who is around a decent amount and is the champion of one of the potential wagons he's not seemed super bothered other than championing his wagon but I don't think we win in this low activity a game if muh/72/ff is all town and Safebet is scum.

Pedit: I think you are self aware enough not to be surprised by a replacement coming in and voting you cos they find you scummy, why does scum!Spangled do that instead of voting for the existing not partner wagon? Unless they are all town which again, dunno how we win - also is him voting you really enough to change your read on cyl or just omgus?

Fferyllt, this late in the day if you aren't voting 72 why aren't you voting muh or trying to move heaven and earth if you don't want muh?

[Mizzytastic]

My bad

[Mizzytastic]

Townhunt/POE is how I usually play, unless I get a really strong scumread.

This... this thing that 72 has about how convinced he is that there is only one correct way to go about the game is pinging me.

It annoys me but I townread it. He's so committed. If it was a scum tactic you could pick and choose which things to find bad more specifically to push where you want, he goes after anything that moves in a way he doesn't like

[Mizzytastic]

Even after it's getting him scum read

[Mizzytastic]

Townhunt/POE is how I usually play, unless I get a really strong scumread.

This... this thing that 72 has about how convinced he is that there is only one correct way to go about the game is pinging me.

It annoys me but I townread it. He's so committed. If it was a scum tactic you could pick and choose which things to find bad more specifically to push where you want, he goes after anything that moves in a way he doesn't like

Yeah, but what about the TSTBS tactic? Not possible nor likely here?

Definitely possible. WIFOM based play is always possible and he is using it as a defense, not just letting it passively sit there. I wouldn't say likely cos other than potentially pocketing me all its gotten scum!72 is negative attention.

[Mizzytastic]

Don't bother... I've heard enough... no point in waiting UNVOTE: muh316 VOTE: AGamblingPig
Dead weight.

I've made my scumread on you muh... deflection and intentional misdirection. Scum.

The tone here seems very reminiscent of Safebets tone when he eliminated AGP.

How? In one he's moving to the wagon to avoid no elim. In the other he is pushing to get people to vote a long term scum read in tight time constraints. The context is so different

[Mizzytastic]

Given Muh's concerns about cylstar buddying Mizzy, I'm suprised the 72/Mizzy interactions haven't been a part of his reasons for scumreading 72.

I'm a little surprised that Spangled and I have such opposite reads of 72 given the same thread data and the same-ish starting point.

Is he still scum reading 72, I see little recent evidence of that

[Mizzytastic]

Yeah, if its 6 tomorrow probably looks like mass claim and decide whether or not we want to no elim to get another town out of the running and go for ELo instead of MELo

If it's no elim now it doesn't cost us a town directed kill before a potential final situation, and means of we mass claim tomorrow then we aren't having to get it right if there is a counter claim.

I don't think you consider another no kill night here. If it happens then yay

[Mizzytastic]

I think there is almost certainly scum in fferyllt, 72, muh - there is no way 3 town wagons are this hard to get going. Short of something very strong I think the next elim should be in there just cos 1 in 3 is better than 1 in 4 of the entire player list.

I don't see muh/fferyllt - that would be bussing d1 and d2

I don't think it's 72/ff. Fferyllt looks bad for such a solid town read if 72 flips red and with his capacity to scumread wherever he wants I doubt 72 chooses to vote 1 bus c4 there and maybe get stuck by the time there is a replacement. Less strong than muh/ff but still strong.

I think 72/muh works but is by no means necessary if one of them does flip scum.


I am open to no elim and treating this and tomorrow as a long day 2 where there was an extra round of night actions. You wouldn't normally be mass claiming d2 in a newbie but if we do no elim that extra round of night actions might make it worth it.

[Mizzytastic]

I'm also getting more open to voting muh again. "what information do you get?" is a scum sided defense. When I voted him he tried to do the "are you policy elimming me?" then too. He's gone two days contributing very little and isn't protesting being too busy since half way through d1.

[Mizzytastic]

Yeah, I can do that

VOTE: muh

[Mizzytastic]

It's harder cos muh isn't polarising in the same way. No one would say muh isn't acting anti town even if he's not scum. There'd probably be scum on there but I'm not as convinced there has to be one in the first two votes like with ff or 72. Muh hasn't taken off because there are noisier distractions more than any XvY resistance. He can't even point to anything town he's done.

Safebet gets reconsidered but I'm doing that for everyone in a MELo/ELo situation anyway. 72 still seems to super care about that slot between player changes despite all the other players he has as obvscum based on how much he asks what I think there so I'd probably want to interrogate that some more

Scum!ff is bold going on muh by not leaving 72 as an option, that has real capacity to get her elimmed. In general the way ff has handled the dueling wagons has a lot of risk of turning on her. Also she's considered how no elim might end up being more town beneficial than usual when scum can keep that to themselves and not get called out on it. There's probably not a lot of players on site you could case for not catching that so it's safe for scum not to mention unless they legit prefer that option

No one else particularly stands out in relation to muh other than the two other people who would need to vote there to make it happen

[Mizzytastic]

I might be around at deadline, i might pass out. I'll mention if I intentionally go to bed

[Mizzytastic]

@JDye - how would your reads change if 72 flipped town?

[Mizzytastic]

Unintentional passing out happened but then I woke back up, looking at stuff

[Mizzytastic]

Massive negatives to spang and egix for npt being here for deadline and bo discussion re compromise miskicks if my kick wasnt going to go thru

Responding to this cos easy. I think they are just in my time zone and have sensible sleep, deadline is close to 3am here

We want to be working out our consolidations days before hand if we want to avoid stuff like this happening. We've just only just got a player base where that would have been possible

[Mizzytastic]

Mizzy. What r ur thoughts re: ff now.
Still not voting.

See stuff I said about no elim. We basically get a long day 2 with an extra set of night actions in the middle. I don't think weighing up the extra town night actions vs giving scum another shot is trivial for scum when we want to be on odds anyway and it doesn't change the number of town directed kills.

I also wouldn't blame any player from either alignment for not considering all that.


I don't entirely get what she saw in muh been as its what made me vote there again but I think wanting a no elim here, especially as a replacement who helped invigorate the game, isn't unreasonable

[Mizzytastic]

@72 what makes you think it could be 3 town wagons? I associate that feeling of not being able to get to the target number anywhere with scum pushing back

[Mizzytastic]

I'd say it's fferyllt who unconsolidated it though. Unless it's exactly you and ff which I've given my own thoughts as to why I find it unlikely. I think it's easy for scum!ff to maneuver into voting you, never mention no elim, and quite probably come out ahead

[Mizzytastic]

I'm anxious more than having fun right now. Pushing no elim convincingly is kinda spooky cos it goes against what you generally do and I'm scared of having made a mistake.

Definitely think the new players are better for the game though and will be more fun tomorrow

[Mizzytastic]

UNVOTE:

I'm gonna pass out again, hopefully.

[Mizzytastic]

Oh, while I remember what put Safebet from scum lean to town lean for you?

[Mizzytastic]

Why is everyone unvoting?
First of all, you can vote 'no lynch' if you so desire. Second, we ought to get someone lynched every day, because that's the only possibility we have of killing scum, and while nightkills do give information, they generally take away good town players. Yes, we're incredibly divided, but the way to fix that isn't to be passive and give up, it's to wrangle out some semblance of compromise.

If people really really aren't happy with a 72 lynch because there's no time, I can settle for muh. I could possibly settle for ff but I would really need to ISO them and the english opening before them. I'm willing to case 72 properly tomorrow. But for goodness' sake we need a lynch.

Mizzy. What r ur thoughts re: ff now.
Still not voting.

See stuff I said about no elim. We basically get a long day 2 with an extra set of night actions in the middle. I don't think weighing up the extra town night actions vs giving scum another shot is trivial for scum when we want to be on odds anyway and it doesn't change the number of town directed kills.

I also wouldn't blame any player from either alignment for not considering all that.


I don't entirely get what she saw in muh been as its what made me vote there again but I think wanting a no elim here, especially as a replacement who helped invigorate the game, isn't unreasonable

This is why we settled on no elim. It was originally floated by ff, I thought it through and you are the first one to disagree. I'm happy to hear an argument against it cos like I said bit spooked people just agreed

[Mizzytastic]

It's no elimming now instead of discussing if we want to at MELo if/when we hit that cos even numbers

[Mizzytastic]

It's no elimming now instead of discussing if we want to at MELo if/when we hit that cos even numbers

Sorry, what? Elaborate, please.

Site terminology for the difference between an even vs odd game final situation (where town need to get scum) . They play out differently cos of how majority voting works and you often no elim to get a town person dead to reduce PoE

No elim now is mathematically the same in that we don't lose a town directed kill, we just play it on odds instead of evens

[Mizzytastic]

I think discussing the night kill before it happens is bad for town

[Mizzytastic]

Cos we have two active players filling dead slots. I'd have preferred an elim in a perfect game but I think with where the town was at 6 hours before deadline using this now to give us extra time in a pseudo day 2 (and I wasn't exactly not town read by most players n1) doesn't sound terrible to me.

[Mizzytastic]

Wait, muh was around all this time?

[Mizzytastic]

Ahh, k

[Mizzytastic]

VOTE: fferyllt

Is this indicative of anything you gleaned overnight?

I think we should be discussing whether or not we think we mass claim here.

[Mizzytastic]

Instead of poking individuals like that

[Mizzytastic]

Cos we have day 3 worth of night actions (been as it's not actually d2, just feels like it) and we avoid having to get a counterclaim right. Also cos I wanted to shut down you asking 72 specifically if that was a night based vote before we have a discussion about how we are going forward with that sorta stuff

[Mizzytastic]

I really have nothing to contribute to the massclaim discussion... I really don't know enough about it. However, Mizzy, you got enough towncred to have my attention. I will wait to discuss other matters for a while. I'm off to bed... Later.

I'm not certain it's right, that's why I want a discussion. It has the potential to produce a lot of clears, but I dunno whether the average case is good enough. Either way I'm not sure asking if a vote is based on night stuff is the right take.

Also 72, safebet - I've come up with a few reasons why muh might get killed but I'd be curious to hear what reasons you might be after thinking it through a bit before just dumping that on the thread. I didn't have to push myself and I'm bit surprised by your "no idea why scum would do this" reaction

[Mizzytastic]

The reason I'm considering claiming is cos we have had an extra round of night actions for bodycount than we usually would have. Some of the setups have a decent chance of having extra clears beyond two uncountered claims which can really reduce the PoE. It also means that if scum counterclaim we don't end up losing if we get it wrong like we would tomorrow. I wanna think through all the options to try and present an optimal strategy and get feedback on it before anyone does anything, but I think there are probably some situations where we should claim and some where we shouldn't, decided by what town power there is and any results they've had.

I totally agree with seeing how the day plays out for now. I'm not saying "we should massclaim right now", I'm saying "I think there is a decent chance it's correct but it needs much thonk"

[Mizzytastic]

On why muh, the ideas I had for why. I know a bunch of these can be WIFOM, but I'll put the less WIFOMy first.

- hitting town who wasn't going to be protected and might have been investigated
- low activity player might be a pr? maybe there was something that was read as a crumb

Now, the WIFOMy stuff. I'm giving what I see as the tier 1 reasoning, add as many levels of WIFOM as you want. Vaguely sorted from what I think is more likely to less likely

- scum want the 72 v ff 1v1 that seems likely to result
- someone wants to benefit from the fact that they unvoted instead of pushing muh through
- someone wants to use muh being town to push people on that wagon
- sells narrative of spangled thinking scum have the game where they want it as wrong, or safebet as scum on the ropes as right
- scum want to push make someone suspicious based on muhs reads, as limited as they were

[Mizzytastic]

I was curious to see if safebet or 72 would try to establish a narrative about that kill when pushed, been as they initially said they couldn't see why

[Mizzytastic]

I'm not saying if you share or not, that's up to you, just wanted to give safebet and 72 a chance to respond before I said them

[Mizzytastic]

Yeah, night kill spec is dangerous, hence a wall of possibilities. I think some stuff is more likely than others but I'm specifically not trying to say muh dead means we should think this

Pedit:
1) and everyone else? Muh flipping town there makes it very likely all the attention is on you two
2+3) that's why the focus is on people trying to actively benefit from that
4) this was about the specific discussion between the two right before deadline
5) there is a reason i put it the bottom of what I find likely

[Mizzytastic]

I'm passing out. Been a zombie today from trying to stay up as long as possible to fix sleep, you'll get thoughts on the other side

[Mizzytastic]

I'll be catching up over the next 24 hours, in the process of fixing sleep and should probably have gone V/LA for 48 hours

An RVS wagon getting that close isn't intrinsically AI. I'd avoid it just cos lolhammers and accidental hammers are both things that happen and people are known to RVS vote without checking where the game is at, but it doesn't mean other people would. What you try to get out of it is generally what comes from pushing those people. It's why I was into the idea of dueling wagons between cyl and Bipolar early on.

[Mizzytastic]

I remember ff saying something to me about my use 1v1, it was me using the wrong terminology I think. I was saying more that it focuses everyone else onto ff v 72, not that you two would necessarily be going at it back and forth

[Mizzytastic]

My hope was to get something to help sort two people early game. Now is more about trying to get consensus on who is scum.

[Mizzytastic]

sorry I’ve been gone so long

Obviously I’ve been V/LA and that’s part of it, but also when I have found time I’ve been feeling really discouraged and so doing other things; rightly or wrongly, I did expect to get TRed by at least a majority of the town after I entered. I don’t know why; maybe it’s ‘cause last game (which was admittedly a good while ago) that I repped into a shady slot, despite calling my own slot scummy, I was fairly roundly TRed for my catch-up, and I thought my catch-up was similar-ish here. I guess I expected the same thing to happen here. Anyway. I’ll try and do some stuff tonight.

Catch up taking longer than planned because Desert Bus for Hope is going longer than planned, but I saw this and it pinged me. Town feeling entitled to be townread cos they are town is definitely a thing, but this feels like feeling entitled to be townread because of how he has acted which feels scummy to me.

[Mizzytastic]

Summary of where I'm at - super depression brain, no idea what's going on and seriously don't know if I'll actually get any more from reading up when I feel this bad. I'll try and catch up tomorrow but I legit can't make promises, I would have replaced but the PL here is already wrecked from replacements and I was trying to prove to myself I can get through a game. I might respond better to direct questions but *shrug*

I made a case for why I thought no elim was OK and stand by it. If I'm wrong it might be something to revisit post game?

ff first suggested no elim. I hadn't considered it, thought it through and then made a case after I convinced myself, though I thought it was more likely that we were claiming today. I thought 72 just went along with it? Like Safebet did too. Maybe I missed something but that's not how I remember it going down

[Mizzytastic]

Seriously though, I have no brain energy and advice for how to approach this game so I can contribute would be appreciated. At this point I'm probably looking at it tomorrow cos I'm close to passing out

[Mizzytastic]

How about you vote 72?

I've not read your case there yet. I was more looking for help with organising thoughts. I hate the fact I'm useless while being a UTR until you came along and I want to fix that uselessness.

[Mizzytastic]

@MURDERCAT - you described me and 72 as two experienced scum. I have 2 scum games, both I replaced out again in less than a gameday for mental health or overloaded schedule reasons. I'm not saying I would have replaced already if scum cos I'm trying really hard to just get through this then just stick to modding and think that commitment to myself would hopefully apply if I was scum as well - but my experience is super uneven and scumplay is a low point for me.

[Mizzytastic]

Mizzy, when u r back to the thread, let me know.

How should I interpret this spiking my anxiety? I feel like whenever 72 wants to get me to do something I'm gonna come back to 4 pages of shouting. I specifically avoided the thread earlier cos I saw this

[Mizzytastic]

@MURDERCAT - I thought jk was one of the weaker possible claims because of the chance of landing in the slot with nothing else. Why are you saying that should claim? And why only one the people you are currently casing and not in general?

[Mizzytastic]

My thoughts were if we are in cop doc we definitely want to claim cos we have a decent chance of getting a whole bunch of clears and maybe just blowing the game open.

Doc tracker maybe ... you get a clear from the doc, tracker should claim last cos a positive can blow up counterclaims

jk claiming seemed spooky cos of the situation with no other power, maybe after a tracker gets a positive

Dunno how to deal with the friendly neighbour setup


It's too late for that now, but I said I'd give my thoughts there so I should at least get that out of the way before catching up

[Mizzytastic]

but my experience is super uneven and scumplay is a low point for me.

You've modded enough games that I think you know what good scum play looks like IMO. But what do you make of my case on 72?

Knowing and doing aren't the same thing.

I already get why 72 looks scummy. What I'm trying to resolve are my feelings of "Am I being pocketed here?" (which has happened before by a similar sort of loud TSTBS polarising slot). I could definitely vote there cos I'm starting to realise just how stressful interacting with that slot has been for me and thinking that could indicate it's a scum tactic, but I at least want to have forced myself to read through d3 before I do.

I think town!you believes it enough to put yourself on a massive uphill battle at 6 if 72 flips town and scum probably wanna keep town!72 around cos his going after everybody has damaged any cred behind his reads and he's a lot of noise in a final situation that doesn't necessarily go in the right direction. I'm also inclined to town read you for coming after me when people town read me so widely - though my low activity muddies the water there because it makes me an easier target than a UTR normally is.

pedit: not advocating for a claim any more, its too late in the day, just said I'd give it and felt like I should

[Mizzytastic]

Has Egix said anything about cylslot since it stopped being cyl?

[Mizzytastic]

Well it reads to me like you are waiting to see if anyone else hops on the wagon, but I'll hold my tongue for now.

I would be surprised if egix is scum, he has a number of posts I liked

Yeah, cos the townie thing for me to do here is vote a slot I have mixed feelings about when I don't feel caught up to try and appease you? Or would that just be me trying to get away from your pressure? You have me as one of two lock scum with no one else close, you are gonna see the scum side of any action I take

And I didn't ask if you liked Egix. I brought up what should be an important trajectory on his part as an idle thought, it's something I'm going to look for and if anyone had anything else to share on it that'd be cool too

[Mizzytastic]

Deadline:

(expired on 2020-11-24 03:25:00)

No worries. This did make me think to look at the countdown though, just a reminder that we basically have 24 hours to choose a target.

Also I'm just going to call this now, if we go with 72 and he's scum I'd like doc on me and JK on mizzy. If you don't feel comfortable going JK on mizzy then JK on me is also acceptable

How about 50/50 coin flip between us to make it harder for scum to plan for?

[Mizzytastic]

Massclaiming now would throw away one of the town benefits of no elim yesterday.

I thought I made it clear d2 that I was in favour of no elim because I thought it played well with a mass claim after

[Mizzytastic]

My strong preference is for no claims, we wagon/kick FF, we have a mislynch in hand. There is really no need to massclaim. The fact that scum hit vanilla townie shows that scum has bad PR reads or the game is stacked against scum and they were forced into a suboptimal kill based on the game dynamics. Massclaim just plays into scum's hands imo.

This pings me. I don't think this game feels like scum are struggling the slightest. It also lines up with exactly one of the narratives I said to look out for from the muh kill

Pedit - these got out of order

[Mizzytastic]

TOWN
Yours truly
Mizzy
JDye
Egix Null
FF Null to slight scumlean based on C4 hard defending Cyl and I now see Spangled as my main scum read right now.
Spangled
SCUM

72... you get your own category... Polarizing Scumtown??? In other words I don't know what to think about you. Your 1v1 with JDye screams TvT but your constant moving on scum reads is unsettling. Your no massclaim analysis is spot on in my opinion and what you say in your own defense about your playstyle makes sense along with your play at the end of D2. I'm gonna play nice with you for now... but my vote stays on Spangled.

FF is second scummiest. Why not wagon FF with me? FF has soft-claimed already.

In a post you previously pointed out as "why would town do this". What's the point in playing coy then just pointing it out pages later

[Mizzytastic]

*crickets*
*tumbleweed*
*meta analysis on day 3 when that cudv been done on earlier days*
*last minute wagon at deadline again incoming as noone takes a firm stance*

On what earlier days could ff, who replaced in 24 hours beyond deadline, do meta analysis?

72 is pinging me way more day 3 and I dunno if its cos I'm swayed by the wagon there or something else changed

[Mizzytastic]

TOWN
Yours truly
Mizzy
JDye
Egix Null
FF Null to slight scumlean based on C4 hard defending Cyl and I now see Spangled as my main scum read right now.
Spangled
SCUM

72... you get your own category... Polarizing Scumtown??? In other words I don't know what to think about you. Your 1v1 with JDye screams TvT but your constant moving on scum reads is unsettling. Your no massclaim analysis is spot on in my opinion and what you say in your own defense about your playstyle makes sense along with your play at the end of D2. I'm gonna play nice with you for now... but my vote stays on Spangled.

FF is second scummiest. Why not wagon FF with me? FF has soft-claimed already.

In a post you previously pointed out as "why would town do this". What's the point in playing coy then just pointing it out pages later

Not sure I follow your question here, Mizzy.

He initially reacts to the soft like its not there then calls it out later. Feels inconsistent

[Mizzytastic]

While you are here. Please comment on wagons in vote count in post 289. Dont need an indepth analysis
Want your gut feel read now.

Woooow it's almost like cylstar is conf scum
Should focus more on offsuit/safebet/Jdye

So why isn't your vote on Spangled right now?

I like the catch up from Egix but nice to see someone else think that

[Mizzytastic]

Though beyond that post my general read on Safebet is going down. It feels like there is a decent amount of being around without really saying much going on

[Mizzytastic]

I also think 72 has a tall order if he thinks he can get me to vote ff. Since taking the spot over she just feels more and more town. Pretty much all of 72s criticism is if the "not playing how I think is right" variety and those aren't the bits I found convincing. Though maybe I'm just bitter about him talking about controlling my vote like that

[Mizzytastic]

Gah, I feel like I haven't got a clue what is going on this game

[Mizzytastic]

Seeing Egix vote there makes me happier again about him

[Mizzytastic]

Intent on 72

Clincher for me was something Egix said about one of my posts where I talk about pulling back cos I was worried about smothering the thread and how scum would keep doing it. That's what it feels like 72 is doing to me, and the game in general. He tries to get laurels for being the first to townread me but when I disagree he doesn't consider my thoughts, I just get pages trying to get me back in line with him. He says he's pushing the game forward but anything other than agreement gets supressed. The only consensus he cares about is one that is all him and to answer an earlier question if any player has contributed to my apathy it's that behaviour.

Also I don't think scum!CAT needs to bus there or line me up for the next elim.

If it is scum!72 I end up looking at Safebet and Spangled. Safebet has moved down for me today in general and 72 was weirdly interested in that slot all game. Spangled as a PoE alternative cos Egix has felt more town to me today and I don't think ff or CAT make sense as partners.

If it's town!72 I think I'd be obligated to look at CAT and ff but doubt that two players with maybe the most polarising interactions with town!72 actually end up being the scum team. It does kinda feel like Safebet can partner with anyone while sounding nice.

On an uncountered claim by 72 I'm voting ff. 3 town wagons at the end of yesterday still seems incredibly off to me

[Mizzytastic]

I can't really say anything to convince you otherwise on that. I know I'm the sort of player who reads and re-reads my posts before making them and so am more likely to catch something like that as scum but I doubt you'll believe me. I think what happened there is the whole first half of that post is from the perspective of it being scum!72 cos I'm explaining what lead to me giving intent instead of trying to create a different wagon but honestly I can't remember myself. I don't know anything to do with 72s alignment and I know at some point that will be proven.


I will say though as a more general comment - one moment you are painting me as doing good enough scum theatre with 72 to get everyone to townread me and next you are saying this, and in general that I'm blatant scum where everything I do indicates my scumminess in general. Doesn't that seem contradictory?

And what's the point of the supposed distancing only to in the same day turn it into a relationship that looks like I'm pocketed. And to have me point out that his progression on me makes no sense.

I feel like you are simultaneously holding me to a level of comptence I'm pretty sure I don't have then pointing out how I'm blatant scum which I know is wrong. I really don't get where you are coming from there. You paint me and 72 as a competent team yet think we have an obvious partnership. You say I've learned from modding games - when I say I like modding I include mish mash in that, I've modded one game of mafia and the scum play there was weird and you should know that cos you spectated.

How am I this super skilled deepwolf and that has pulled the wool over everyones eyes and I'm some super obvious every single action I take is scummy scummer to you?

[Mizzytastic]

think he means a claim from 72, which probably comes later based on when they seem to be active

[Mizzytastic]

Why? You think I'm scum but you don't want to talk about it with me?

I'm here and willing to talk, I'm sure 72 will claim when he is around (or he won't cos he 'can't believe how bad we all are' or something but *shrug*). Why just sit around in silence until that happens

[Mizzytastic]

Also, why does ff get a pass for bringing up no elim. She brought it up first and has admitted as such yet you paint it as me and 72? I get that you might think she is town otherwise but this feels misrepresentitive.

[Mizzytastic]

Like I said earlier, my perception was ff brought it up, I pushed it thinking I was being clever (and I still don't think it was a bad decision, though I'm happy to discuss it post game if I was wrong). 72 was just one of the people who went along with it.

[Mizzytastic]

But you were offering to do the independent scum case on me separate from 72 earlier as one of your list of options. Now you are making it sound like that's not really there and my alignment is inexorably tied to 72's?

pedit - a matter of opinion you are making a scum case out of

[Mizzytastic]

But you were offering to do the independent scum case on me separate from 72 earlier as one of your list of options.

If people wanted to see it, but I won't have time to do this and spangled before the day ends and it doesn't make sense to do it independently if 72 is flipped

This feels like you are just shutting me out. "I think you are obvscum but I don't have time to make that case but if you want to ask questions you can" - the thing I'm gonna be questioning is what you aren't giving me

[Mizzytastic]

I'm off to bed then. I'm pretty frustrated and don't want to get too wound up, and I'm struggling to stay awake anyway

[Mizzytastic]

I was busy anyway, now I'm going to bed. I'm mostly in a grump cos I'm fixing my sleep and it's not fully there yet and I had something I had to stay up for.

That said I am going to sleep now. Though I do wonder why you have both me and 72 in the same tier with two empty rows above us if you don't actually think I'm as scummy as him? Or has something changed?

[Mizzytastic]

Of course i am.

Look at tye effort ive put in.
Regardless, even if i was scum.
I get intent to hammered AFTER ASKING MIZZY TO notify me when back in the thread.

Fuck you dude. Whenever I've done anything other than exactly what you want you bombard me with posts until I get in line or leave the thread. You are part of the reason for my apathy this game. If you read what I said I specifically avoided the thread after you said that cos it sound my anxiety and I just wanted a chance to get my own thoughts out without being railroaded. And when I don't do what you want you just get angry at me and I feel like avoiding you in the first plane was the right thing


Anyway UNVOTE: , no cc here

[Mizzytastic]

In the rare world where ff is town tracker I'd read this amount of giving up as her genuinely thinking 72 is town and rbed n1 and thinking we are doomed to elim him tomorrow.

I mean it is a very small world considering I don't think she even gave last nights results iirc

[Mizzytastic]

Oh, right, derp, waking up on not enough sleep

[Mizzytastic]

I know I'm town.

I suspect I'm about to know 72 is town short of bizarro world

I originally had Spangled as some sort of PoE alternative if 72 was scum but thinking about it the likely third elim after 72 and ff agreed on by both doesn't really make sense unless scum were super confident. cyl's comments start of d2 make him likely scum in bizarro no kill n1 world

Egix seemed more proactive d3 in a way I liked, but I don't remember them seriously Interacting with ff other than back and forth quips about his meta and he has c4 in a post I called out for looking like a rule of 3 read

CAT has burned a lot of game cred here and still would have if 72 was VT - post flip him and ff would've been enemy number 1 and 2 tomorrow. And ff calling JDye v 72 TvT pings me as true cos it tends to be when it comes from scum

Safebet just feels, well safe. He sounds nice, and hunterr did too so I've put them in the can be town for now bin but always been aware they could just be a player who says nice good sounding things who turns out to be scum. He didn't feel like he was doing much d3. I'd have to look for associatives but the things that ping my memory are he also called JDye v 72 TvT but also them both voting muh d2 feeling odd as a scum tactic

[Mizzytastic]

Of course i am.

Look at tye effort ive put in.
Regardless, even if i was scum.
I get intent to hammered AFTER ASKING MIZZY TO notify me when back in the thread.

Fuck you dude. Whenever I've done anything other than exactly what you want you bombard me with posts until I get in line or leave the thread. You are part of the reason for my apathy this game. If you read what I said I specifically avoided the thread after you said that cos it sound my anxiety and I just wanted a chance to get my own thoughts out without being railroaded. And when I don't do what you want you just get angry at me and I feel like avoiding you in the first plane was the right thing


Anyway UNVOTE: , no cc here

K. Apologies if i made the game unenjoyable for u, was jot my intention.
I probs got carried away with the game. Just townread you hard and i thought u townread me.

Im not surprised u voted for me given i can see from this post how angry and fruastrated u r with me.

If i knew u were at this level i wudv stepped back.

All i can say is my bad.

I'm sorry for snapping there. I've had a lot going on this game and it bled into the game and I'm sorry.

I could never confidently town read you because you were being intentionally anti charismatic. TSTBS players are usually just town - either a new player who doesn't know or an experienced one who doesn't care - but you can never be confident there. Especially when I've been pocketed like that before.

I should double check who talked about me potentially being pocketed. I'm pretty sure JDye did but that might just be him being tunnelled. I also think I remember Safebet doing it to convince me to vote muh (amongst other stuff) despite his read on you being more mixed - could be intentional.

I've also been out of the game in general and lack a lot of confidence over my reads - like I first post I'm not good at this game. I am decent at sounding town, but as far as I'm concerned I'm not great at scum hunting or producing reads, which means as scum I dunno what to fake. My town strategy is be honest about my thoughts, pay attention to town health and hope I say something that helps someone else solve the game. It's probably what CAT was reading too

[Mizzytastic]

what I mean by the sounding nice thing is there are just some players who can sound nice and say reasonable things and turn out to be scum even though people find it generally townie, they are usually easier to catch after you get the partner, that's been my read on your slot for most of the game

I think Safebet is both a good shot for being scum and a useful person to have confirmed as town

[Mizzytastic]

Who is around at deadline? 72 has usually been but my sleep is getting fixed so I'd rather not be, and Egix is my time zone too.

[Mizzytastic]

I've said stuff already but I think it comes down to you or Safebet. Safebet is the one that feels like everything makes sense whereas you spook me more. Saving more detailed reading for when I know if one of you is mech solved.

I dunno if ff goes on partner!Spangled d3 or if scum!Spangled acts like he did about the no elim d2. It'd take a lot of courage as scum to force through a wagon on town in that way after town consensus is swayed but town being "no, no elim bad" totally follows. How is your town car there coming on?

Egix doesn't feel like he has an agenda beyond believing cylslot is scum and i liked his posting d3.

[Mizzytastic]

Who is around at deadline? 72 has usually been but my sleep is getting fixed so I'd rather not be, and Egix is my time zone too.

I can vote before I go to sleep.

The concern is ff self hammering before 72 can get here and saying who he jks

[Mizzytastic]

I should still be around to vote by the time he is usually active. If Safebet or CAT don't vote after saying they'd be around it's probably just chain elim after ff and a win for whatever faction they aren't so I'd say they are motivated to carry it out

[Mizzytastic]

@72 if you want you an unvote and I'll vote, then I can go to bed

Pedit or not

Pedit Pedit spicy, i like it

[Mizzytastic]

I thought we weren't supposed to read into replacements.

Also I was convinced the game would be over today cos a full day of conftown CAT seems super helpful imo and I was surprised by your reaction EoD3 (aka pls no/useful tracker)

I say let's get it right today then. I hate final situations

I'll look at stuff this evening

[Mizzytastic]

Got it. Yeah, that narrative makes sense. Still super sus of Safebet though

Ftr, I was never unhappy with being scumread. Honestly it was refreshing. Becoming a UTR is kinda unpleasant when you feel like you don't have anything to contribute. I was frustrated because it felt like I wasn't being given an option to defend myself

[Mizzytastic]

I'm saying I'm suspicious of you independently of that narrative making sense. I was just reaffirming that is my position cos it's start of day

[Mizzytastic]

Egix, a question. You've scum read Spangled consistently throughout this game.

Startish of d2 you put forward three players you find scummy - Spangledslot, 72 and ffslot.

End of d2 you show up with 3 wagons. What makes you choose the one Spangled is on?

[Mizzytastic]

Rule of three is a common scum trick
of when you give thoughts (who is scummy, most town, whatever that isn't a full reads list) you give 3 options and one of them is a partner. It's sort of a rule of thumb for how much info to give. Egix made a post that looked so obviously like that that it pinged me


My general thoughts (pre reread which I hope to do tomorrow with live updates if brain cooperates) are that I'm worried by the lack of paranoia around Spangled. Just, everyone seems OK with it including the only place ff wanted to vote d3. I think ff was town reading 72 cos town reading polarised town to get them into final situations is a really strong strategy. I struggle to see why in that situation you offer up your partner as the alternative. It's a ballsy position to bus from

I don't like Egix explanation of the vote I asked about. Spangled didn't just vote 72, he decided to desperately try to push it through when we were all unvoting. We know now that 72 is town but we don't see Egix reconsidering his position after what would have been the hardest of hard busses from his perspective. And I feel like when choosing between wagons of people you find scummy going with the one your game long scumread is on needs a better reason than "I thought they were partners"

Mostly though it's internal screaming cos I hate being in this sort of position

[Mizzytastic]

Do you still have a towncase on Spangled after the 72 flip? You were working on it EoD3 and it never materialised.

I'll hopefully produce more for you to bounce off tomorrow, I'm pretty close to bedtime and I've got a headache right now

[Mizzytastic]

And you’ve mentioned others’ arguments for me being scum — can you point to the ones you agree with, please?

I'm not going to have time to dig them all up, unfortunately. They are posts mostly saying how your slot's play is off. Egix has been reading your slot as scum all game, so Iso'ing egix is a good start. Here are a few posts from 72 I have notes on (sorry no links)..

942
961-962
967
972
1145

Here's one from Mizzy, practically calling it out..

If its town fferyllt one of 72 and muh is probably scum.

If it's town 72 I agree one of JDye and Spangled is prob scum.

I retreated to muh out of paranoia and the way he joined the c4 wagon bugging me.

VOTE: fferyllt

Huh, I did say that didn't I. I'll have to add that into my reconsideration.

[Mizzytastic]

I guss I find myself really compelling, I'd forgotten I'd said that.

[Mizzytastic]

I'm just left feeling like anyone could be scum and I look over and it's not compelling enough for me to say yes it's them

*dramatic flailing*

[Mizzytastic]

The problem is if it is town!Egix he's been on that slot all game and it's easy for scum to play around that. He's gonna jump on that as town too

[Mizzytastic]

End of last day I had some real concerns that he just kinda fit, but it bugs me more now that he and ff were both on muh EoD2. I feel like they can avoid that and get 72 elimmed there. It would also mean both scum were on muh EoD1 until hammer, EoD2 and killed him N2 which just doesn't make sense for what he was putting into the game.

I'm ok with going over safebet tomorrow. Between Egix and Spangled I think I prefer elimming Egix right now. Partly cos I know I have biases and a low poster like Egix is gonna have a hard time not gettng voted by me in a final situation. But also because of my line of questioning today about a few inconsistencies. I don't think his position on 72 makes sense, and while I liked the direction of some of his day 3 posts on day 3, he was null up to that point. I'd also like to say there is maybe something in Spangled not voting 72 but he was V/LA so probably not.

I wish I'd asked what took 72 from thinking Spangled is town after he claimed to almost jailkeeping there but it was a short twilight.

[Mizzytastic]

I'd like more detail on why you thought 72 was Spangled/cyl's partner.

Also curious if you have any thoughts as to why FF meta dived you and the conclusions she came to.

[Mizzytastic]

Even if Spangled is scum it doesn't feel specifically like theatre to me beyond the fact that scum always have to fake some part of their interactions.

Ff is expressing her scum intent there, town reading and keeping alive controversial town has definite strategic benefits. Spangled's interaction there doesn't really have that same feel of intent. There's nothing townie about it either, it's just a non committal stance

[Mizzytastic]

if nothing else, you are making me feel better about Safebet. I've townread him pretty much all game but I was just kinda worried about how he fit in to some situations with ff scum

I'm kinda tempted to just go with Spangled cos we've all scum read that slot at some point, and Egix not feeling like he needed to manufacture an answer to try and satisfy me despite the fact if I voted there I doubt Spangled is self voting

[Mizzytastic]

If you do I'm not going to complain

[Mizzytastic]

I guess we should wait until he is around?

[Mizzytastic]

I'm gonna have to do a soft V/LA over the next 24~48 hours, I'm reinstalling my computer and while I shouldn't have any problems you never quite know what might happen.

[Mizzytastic]

Right, computer is working though I'm still sorting stuff out so I'll be in and out. First thoughts

Day 5 Strategy - scum!Egix would be bold trying to get Safebet to flip on me - he has a hard time winning if we end up crossvoting, scum!Safebet would be going for the easier option trying to get me to go on Egix after CAT tried to get me away from my paranoia there

VCA - this leans more badly for Egix IMO. He's been in the 'optimal' scum slot on the wagon the first 3 days. Also D1 both scum preferred muh to AGP, if it's scum!Safebet they were both there d2, aaaand they killed him n2. I wanna go look back and see if he said anything that could have drawn him such ire

[Mizzytastic]

Right, computer is working though I'm still sorting stuff out so I'll be in and out. First thoughts

Day 5 Strategy -

scum!Egix would be bold trying to get Safebet to flip on me - he has a hard time winning if we end up crossvoting

, scum!Safebet would be going for the easier option trying to get me to go on Egix after CAT tried to get me away from my paranoia there

VCA - this leans more badly for Egix IMO. He's been in the 'optimal' scum slot on the wagon the first 3 days. Also D1 both scum preferred muh to AGP, if it's scum!Safebet they were both there d2, aaaand they killed him n2. I wanna go look back and see if he said anything that could have drawn him such ire

@ Mizzy... why wouldn't it be just as likely that scum!Egix tries to convince you that I'm scum?

When giving WIFOM based reads I tend to default to saying the most base level one. 1) cos wifom is just a part of the game we all know and have to anticipate and 2) cos higher levels of wifom are just less likely and generally come from fancy play syndrome or not anticipating why something is generally bad for scum to do

Possible? Yes. Just as likely? I don't think so but also leave it as an exercise for the reader - you are free to disagree

[Mizzytastic]

Level 1 thinking - scum won't do X cos it's bad for them

Level 2 thinking - scum will do X cos they wouldn't do it

Just how deep down the rabbit hole/nuanced you decide to make your read there

[Mizzytastic]

I'm saying in that post I think d5 strategy wise you are more likely to be scum because that doesn't make sense from scum!egix as a baseline

But VCA wise I think he looks worse than you

[Mizzytastic]

looking at muh wasn't especially helpful. He's on c4, suspicious of egix d1, you end of d2 but mostly just ... very omgusy. I could believe that he died for his reads in the world where either of you are scum. It leads egix just because it's d1.

I'm pretty sure ff's play around 72 was to do with trying to get him to a final situation where he is likely to get votes. I dunno if Egix votes there d2 if that strategy is going?

I also feel like c4 was trying to line up Egix d2, but it's hard to tell if it was distancing or lining up an elim cos he didn't say much then replaced out, and ff's approach to Egix was clearly different. I tend towards the later just because I was the other person c4 pushed for the interactions with cyl and it felt like the d2 shift was to the easier target.

I feel like the ff metadive on Egix was based on the assumption he's likely to get to a final situation and it creates a whole bunch of WIFOM. But that plays either way, and I feel like it's a pretty safe bet for d3 ff to guess she dies before either of you two. I don't remember any significant interactions between you two other than you both ending up on muh.

I do remember feeling odd about how you encouraged me to vote muh - responding to something I said mid d1 mid d2 and maybe also playing on my paranoia about 72 pocketing me - but I need to go check that second bit, I feel like JDye said it first and you second but I'd have to go check. If I'm right on ff's strategy on 72 it could be a sign of partnership cos 72 probably just dies d2 if you are voting there (and he's not a pr, but scum clearly didn't think he was at the time)

If I vote you and I'm wrong I feel stupid cos between the two of you you look more town at face value. If I vote Egix and i'm wrong I kick myself cos my gut has been saying it's you since the ff flip and I've not had the spoons to make that case.


I want to vote you over Egix, but I'm struggling to vote either of you over my anxiety of being wrong.

[Mizzytastic]

I'm also kinda bugged by feeling you aren't acting like someone who feels like it's pretty damn obvious which one of us is scum, which you are professing to be your position - but that could just be you being nice and giving everyone the time of day

[Mizzytastic]

VOTE: fferyllt

Is this indicative of anything you gleaned overnight?

Why did you ask this?

[Mizzytastic]

So when ff responded to that by saying she knew it wasn't you didn't find it odd?

[Mizzytastic]

I'm kinda surprised Safebet hasn't already for the level of certainty he seems to portray. I wasn't expecting anything to ask. If you still going to vote me then I'm happy to cross vote now and hope my read is just wrong

[Mizzytastic]

Ebwop: anyone