White flag #824 game over

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: Datisi

Datisi! Did you roll town?

[GuiltyLion]

Datisi! Did you roll town?

i did! did you?

yes!!! maybe finally THIS WILL BE THE GAME

Gamma, what's the point of picking people before any interactions? I feel like I'd rather find actual townreads instead of making up arbitrary ones

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: implosion

[GuiltyLion]

I choose Not_Mafia as the first of my hardtowns

[GuiltyLion]

^not only is it pointless, but specifically phrasing it as "4%" instead of something like "one of your posts" rubs me the wrong way, like implosion is trying to make it sound worse

[GuiltyLion]

dwlee likely town for that.

can you elaborate on this one? I don't see how that post makes Dwlee any more likely town, he's just accepting a townread on him from Flea

I also don't vibe with your Datisi scumread, I feel 47 is town!indicative from him because if he were scum wanting to bullshit a read on me he would have likely checked the Coalition game first to see whether he could find something different in my play, rather than claiming suspicion first without checking. Forgetting that I naked voted in the last game doesn't feel to me like the kind of fake thought process that scum would make up if he knew I'm town here

[GuiltyLion]

I'm selecting Gamma as my other hard townread

Infinity are you townreading bugspray?

[GuiltyLion]

i am not sure i like this. specifically the bolded part, that never happened. i didn't claim suspicion on you without checking - at the time of typing 47, i had already checked coalition and knew you weren't actually suspicious for naked voting.

you did claim suspicion on me though

i was gonna make a post saying how i also didn't like guiltylion, because him naked voting implo without any given thought felt odd, because in the coalition run i recently modded, he voted on page one after providing decent reasoning first

Maybe I should have rephrased my post to say "claimed

to have

suspicion on me", I didn't mean to imply you were claiming to suspect me in *this* thread, but you very clearly expressed that you were suspicious of me prior to having checked Coalition, that's the point I was making

[GuiltyLion]

I don't see why scum Datisi can't have seen your vote here and said "oh, i think this is a difference in GL's play" and then gone back and seen that it wasn't.

But why would scum!Datisi go through with posting that regardless afterwards once he confirmed it wasn't indicative and I was consistent across the two games?

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

This is outed actually. He was angry at bugspray being a baboon, implying anger at bugspray's stupidity or lack of reading comprehension. But then he votes bugspray on the basis that they were mafia and intentionally trying to make them look bad. Which makes them scum, not someone who lacks reading comprehension. I think Gamma is mafia who got tilted at being suspected for the wrong reasons by a townie who didn't read their post properly. Which is why he initially calls them a baboon and then switches to a fake reason to attack them after.

And this feels massively over explanatory for page 4/5...

I don't like this, feels like you're embellishing calling it "massively" over explanatory

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: Dwlee

are you still scumreading implosion and what are your other reads

[GuiltyLion]

I think I like NM, Gamma, goats, Datisi, Infinity for town so far

That VC made me hate the wagon I was on despite still not really feeling any townie vibes from implosion yet

everyone else still various flavors of non-entity to scummy

[GuiltyLion]

@pooky re:your reply to my 131 - I haven't played with Flea before, can you link me to some past games you played or read with them? I still don't like that post and fae haven't given many reads to work with

I definitely feel the townvibes from that implo rage I don't think I've ever seen a game where he emoted like that as scum

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

This is outed actually. He was angry at bugspray being a baboon, implying anger at bugspray's stupidity or lack of reading comprehension. But then he votes bugspray on the basis that they were mafia and intentionally trying to make them look bad. Which makes them scum, not someone who lacks reading comprehension. I think Gamma is mafia who got tilted at being suspected for the wrong reasons by a townie who didn't read their post properly. Which is why he initially calls them a baboon and then switches to a fake reason to attack them after.

And this feels massively over explanatory for page 4/5...

I don't like this, feels like you're embellishing calling it "massively" over explanatory

This is a huge reach.

VOTE: GuiltyLion

How is it a "reach" to say your post wasn't over explanatory, especially not "massively" so?

[GuiltyLion]

Pooky, NM, Klick, and Infinity can be trusted. Maybe Flea.

I think GL's vote on Dwlee can easily be partnered. I would call GL my second top scumread right now.

Why Klick and why Flea?

and especially how would my vote on Dwlee make sense as a partner vote when this is explicitly a setup that punishes bussing more than usual? Like if I were scum the last thing I would be doing right now is voting a partner when I could probably come up with an excuse to vote almost anyone

[GuiltyLion]

thinking about it more I'm having a hard time seeing how us being partners is a genuine read or thought

VOTE: goats

[GuiltyLion]

You never outed a really strong scumread of him it was more like a "oh I can't find any other palatable options, guess I'll kick dwlee's ass in gear". All he has to do is show up and post and you have an excuse to shift the vote off him.

this is assuming that I'm scum first and writing a narrative second

I didn't have any strong scumreads and Dwlee hadn't done anything to read him off of, that makes him a good vote. The issue is your thought process, apparently "scum who has no other viable options voting his partner on early D1" is somehow more likely than "town with a handful of townreads on active players pushing an inactive slot to participate"? I can't see that coming from someone reasoning about my posts in good faith

[GuiltyLion]

3) GL says "I can't possibly be partners with dwlee, I voted him one time!"

This is not at all what I said, actually

[GuiltyLion]

no, you're trying to frame what I said as being an argument about whether or not I'm scum with Dwlee, but that's not what I'm arguing about. I don't need to argue or convince anybody of me not being scum with Dwlee because I already know it's not true.

Instead what I am pushing on is your thought process, what I am saying is that it's

really hard

for me to grok town in your shoes seeing a scumread voting another scumread and using that as evidence to reinforce their scumread on both players, particularly in a white flag game. You're starting with a conclusion you want to push ("GL is scum") and then arguing from that position in the face of what should have been relatively decent-to-strong evidence immediately to the contrary.

[GuiltyLion]

I'm not engaging w/ you any more.

This is exactly what scum!Koba just pulled in Coalition when I started arguing back at him after he tried to bullshit a fake early game scumread on me

You still haven't answered why I would vote one of my partners instead of literally anyone else during the stage of the game when it's easiest to come up with reasons to vote almost anybody. Seeing a scumread vote another scumread absolutely should prompt you to think about whether you're wrong on one of those reads more than it should make you think "oh scum must be distancing with each other!!". The odds of both me and Dwlee being scum together a priori are already low in a vacuum, and then the idea that I must be voting him as part of some nefarious scum distancing agenda feels a lot more like trying to shoehorn your read into making sense rather than genuinely evaluating potential town!explanations for why I'm voting where I'm voting.

Like even using your own logic, if the vote is so half baked or easily moved that I get no anti-associative credit from it, then what would be the benefit to scum!me for doing it? Again, why vote my partner over anyone else if I'm just locking myself into needing to back off of it later?

[GuiltyLion]

sorry, arguing back at them after they tried to bullshit a fake early game scumread on me*

[GuiltyLion]

Instead what I am pushing on is your thought process, what I am saying is that it's really hard for me to grok town in your shoes seeing a scumread voting another scumread and using that as evidence to reinforce their scumread on both players, particularly in a white flag game. You're starting with a conclusion you want to push ("GL is scum") and then arguing from that position in the face of what should have been relatively decent-to-strong evidence immediately to the contrary.

:/

guilty, do you really genuinely believe that one person voting another in what was essentially rvs is" decent-to-strong evidence" for the two of them not being partnered?

I mean yes? I don't look at the first or second vote of my scumreads and assume that means they're partnered or aligned, that's usually evidence they aren't aligned

maybe I'm baited and biased because of where I'm sitting but this:

I think GL's vote on Dwlee can easily be partnered. I would call GL my second top scumread right now.

just stands out as fake, like he's looking for a reason to excuse the inconsistency in his read on me and his read on Dwlee, and I'm kinda shmorcked that you and implosion seem to see some other way

[GuiltyLion]

"The last thing I would be doing right now is voting a partner" when we're in the first day or two of the game, and Datisi wasn't really a wagon with steam, is a vapid take.

how is it vapid??

like, let's say I scum with Dwlee, I vote him, he picks up a handful of votes and then I decide to bail because his wagon is getting too serious. That's going to look infinitely worse on us if either of us were to flip?? that's absolutely not how I play scum, pointlessly set myself up for a harder-to-navigate trajectory for no real gain whatsoever.

How can you not see this as a misrep?

3) GL says "I can't possibly be partners with dwlee, I voted him one time!"

That's never the argument I'm making, and this:

This also seems like trying to have your cake and eat it too. You're saying that goats's logic is wrong because scum wouldn't want to bus right now because the setup disincentivizes it, *but also* scum wouldn't bus right now because they won't get anti-associative credit from it if they can move it. Doesn't the second logic invalidate the first? I know you're saying "using your own logic" but the same trick can be flipped on you here

is exactly the point. There's not really a strong reason to see it as partner indicative, if anything like I said it'd be slightly less so - so the fact that goats concludes an explanation that requires the most assumptions (scum!Dwlee, scum!GL, scum!GL votes partner) is agenda-driven thinking.

[GuiltyLion]

I'm not engaging w/ you any more. I'm not gonna convince you to admit that you're scum and I'd rather let you sit here and dig a hole for yourself.

@everyone else vote GL if you want to become confirmed town for free after he flips mafia. no mafia would vote for another mafia d1 after all

it looks like the not engaging strat is working out well for me eh?

and this is gloating

[GuiltyLion]

whatever, I'm probably too riled up to come here and see townreads voting me for pointing out that scum!GL/scum!Dwlee is a ridiculous take - will be back tomorrow

[GuiltyLion]

like "minimally committal" is just not how I play scum and I have tons of previous mafia PT posts to back this up

[GuiltyLion]

Ugh

I think the reason I got so tilted last night is because in my most recent loss, Divide and Conquer, I got miselimmed in LYLO because scum successfully argued that I played really tentatively and awkwardly around Bingle (not my partner), that my vote/attitude him was distancing when I had basically waffled and not pushed him 'enough' as town on D1. Again I had tried to make the same point (yes, self meta, but I can pull from endless mafia PTs or towngames where I make the same point over and over) that my intentions as scum are either to not bus and townread or to distance meaningfully and extensively.

A "hey you, come play" vote on my partner is not something I would like or tend to do as scum and it is frustrating to see people I think are likely town here like Dats buying into the narrative that goats sold with no justification whatsoever.

I probably overreacted but it's a dumb read and I think it's fake. And now you have Flea isalivating at the opportunity to vote me. I don't like infinity calling me scum and not voting me either.

Do I need to pull the receipts for yall to listen to me? I can when I wake up and get out of bed on my PC later today

[GuiltyLion]

Dwlee is town for his reaction here seeing that my frustration is real and not immediately taking that as a reason to suspect/push me

[GuiltyLion]

Also implosion is townie for the olive branch reach out as well

Flea shading me in 276 is a real bad look and I think an attempt to goad me into flailing further. There's no point to that post except to try to make me look bad, no attempt at engaging.

[GuiltyLion]

Datisi please reread goats posts assuming you had my green flip

The way he pushes me just vibes scum to me. Arrogant, making up narratives, not grounded in any genuine suspicion. I think he knows I'm green as well

[GuiltyLion]

Oh wait I totally missed 274, hold on

[GuiltyLion]

What do you actually think of that initial post?
You know, the one that infers Gamma is
Angry at bugs being a baboon
Angry at bugs stupidity and lack of reading comprehension
Voting because he believes someone is scum
Tilted
Caught for the wrong reasons by the lack of reading comprehension
Reacts adversely, causing point 1
Uses fake justification for an attack

At the risk of completely embarrassing myself, I do see what you're saying here. I think I initially lazy shelved goats as a townread for playing ~ aggressive ~ and because I did think Gamma was being reactive in a way that I could imagine a town!goats genuinely scumreading, and then when I saw you calling it a "massive" reach I didn't buy that because I felt you may be trying to make it look worse than it actually was

Having now been on the other end of a goats push, I am rethinking this a bit now, because I do see the point about how he assumed Gamma was scum caught for bad reasons and he efinitely wasn't giving any weight to a town!Gamma explanation for his behavior

Let me turn this back to you, what is your reads on goats now and why do you not see his claim that me/Dwlee "can easily be partnered" as a similar reach? Fmpov that one is worse because he's straight up making assumptions about alignments rather than reads/motivations

[GuiltyLion]

I will give the examples in maybe 2-3 hours time

[GuiltyLion]

I guess the main thing I want/need to clarify is like

My intention was never to argue about clearing myself and I don't think my initial posts did, or at least I didn't mean to. Goats has certainly framed them that way.

Rather I was trying to make the point that saying "I can easily see this as partnered" - without putting any reassessing on whether it's possible/likely that town!GL is suspecting/poking a mutually suspected empty slot - is what strikes me as fake. There was no consideration that I may be town, just an assertion that their two scumreads make sense together

I guess if you don't know my alignment it's harder to see, but I really disagree the push was reasonable or town-motivated, especially once they started framing it as me saying we are never partners. I think I got baited into having that argument when it wasn't what I was trying to have

P-edit: I'm sorry, I'll be more careful to get it right going forward

[GuiltyLion]

You never outed a really strong scumread of him it was more like a "oh I can't find any other palatable options, guess I'll kick dwlee's ass in gear".

3) GL says "I can't possibly be partners with dwlee, I voted him one time!"

These the misreps.

Rereading my own 220, I think people are misinterpreting it. I wasn't trying to clear myself there, though I do see how someone could read it that way. But my intent was to try to pressure goats on why their narrative for my play was the likely/correct explanation

[GuiltyLion]

Eh, it didn't strike me as a sanity check, I thought it was a preemptive handwave of something they knew they might get questioned on or should be reevaluating. Maybe I need to try more to put myself into the headspace of how it looks to a third party but it's hard when they immediately start misrepping and gloating and playing to the rest of the thread

[GuiltyLion]

It also felt like I was being manipulated into keeping my vote on Dwlee, but maybe I invented that

[GuiltyLion]

uh okay so this is definitely embarrassing but when I started going back through my old scum games/PTs to try to find good posts that would summarize why I don't like to awkwardly commit myself to suspecting/voting partners early game as scum, I actually realized that I forgot that I

did

recently try such a maneuver in my most recent scumgame last year, Forest Fire (link is to the initial distance vote)

here's my post after D1 in the maf PT where I am identifying how it put me in a bad spot, like this is pretty much exactly why I try to avoid it as scum because it played out risky/badly on D1 as expected. But it is kinda egg on my face to see I haven't been completely above trying that move, I remembered fighting with Ydrasse in game making posts more like this but forgot how tentative the initial distancing/vote was.

so while yes I guess I have done it before and maybe it's not unreasonable for someone to think that, I wasn't lying about how I don't

like

to do that as scum and I DO have the receipts of me saying this same thing as town:

1) here (last post before I was misyeeted in DnC, read this + quoted)
2) here ("the idea that I'd open the game as scum by pressuring my partner instead of anyone else I could go after is pretty questionable, to put it lightly")
3) here ("I can show you many past scumgames of me treating my newbie scum partners with kiddie gloves, especially on D1 since I don't like unnecessary attention on them until/unless I'm confident they can handle it." - this is speaking specifically about being partner with a newbie but the latter sentence is true for any partners)
4) here ("I doubt this one will mean a lot coming from me as it's WIFOM and self-meta, but as a point of pride, I really try very hard as scum not to be clumsy about my associatives with my partner. I'll always try to take a firm stance on them whether I'm bussing or townreading and commit to it, I don't make waffley awkward moves around them and if I decide to bus I commit. Later I can pull some scum PTs where I've said as much.")
5) here ("again, me being anyone's top possible scumread is fairly absurd, frankly. to think that I am scum means I decided to death tunnel one of my partners on D1 over literally any other available mislynch. I didn't just casually vote BuJaber as a distance and get stuck there, I put my foot on the gas for that lynch multiple times. Against a mason setup that's extremely suboptimal play" - this one is a slightly different context as I hardpushed scum!BuJaber to an eventual scumflip D1, but the phrasing/point is very similar with regard to a mason setup/white flag setup where Bussing is Bad with a capital B)

[GuiltyLion]

and to make it clear again here is why I don't buy goats' idea that I'd have no available options to vote anyone other than a partner!Dwlee

like, let's say I scum with Dwlee, I vote him, he picks up a handful of votes and then I decide to bail because his wagon is getting too serious. That's going to look infinitely worse on us if either of us were to flip?? that's absolutely not how I play scum, pointlessly set myself up for a harder-to-navigate trajectory for no real gain whatsoever.

[GuiltyLion]

Yours on me, is one of the awful ones as you got nothing from it and honestly it looks like a defence attempt using mech as way out.

can you explain what you mean by "defense attempt using mech as a way out", I don't follow what you're saying. When you say "using mech" are you talking about my point that I don't think I would bus in a bussing-worse-than-normal setup?

[GuiltyLion]

oh yeah I guess I lied about not engaging with you because I'm really eager to hear your response to this:

multiple people (implosion, datisi, infinity) all echo the reason I had to scumread you (trying to convince us that you can't be partners with dwlee because you voted them one time). if im making up narratives and not arguing in good faith and my suspicion is just so bad it can't be genuine... what are they? scum too?

gentle reminder for GL in case he "forgot" about this

serious question: why the scare quotes? Why is every post of yours an attempt to make me look as bad as possible?

this is also an attempt at a "gotcha" contradiction rather than a good faith reading of my posts, the obvious difference in context is that you specifically claimed to scumread both of us and that you see us as partnered, then went on to say I had no "palatable options" of voting elsewhere.

Whereas the others are more pushing back on my scumread of you and my argument that YOUR argument is fake. I don't believe any of them claim to share your view that Dwlee/GL was S-S, that's the difference.

[GuiltyLion]

anyway I'm gonna try to stop beating on this drum for a bit as I think this game is getting a bit too centered on me defending myself/my goats read

One other thing though Flea

I'm fairly good on goats rn, isn't someone I'd be willing to take into YOLO at this point but I like their style

what about their style makes them town? This isn't a read, it's just a reason to not be voting them / to vote alongside them

[GuiltyLion]

ah sorry, I missed that last night

i guess my q is, why are you so sure that i don't post that as scum? i *think* your idea of my scumgame is pretty outdated, but i know you read at least one of my morr recent games, so i'm curious how you got here.

it's not based on an idea of your scumgame specifically, its grounded in whether or not you

know

my alignment here. If you were scum, even if you had genuinely thought that you remembered a surface level difference in my play from my last town game to use as evidence for a fabricated push, I think once you went and checked and saw that I was consistent you'd just be less inclined to bring it up at all.

The sentiment is effectively "I thought GL was different than his town game, but I just checked and it was the same" - what benefit does that serve you at that point? there's just more disincentives for scum to post this, its convoluted, doesn't help you push me nor is it used as a reason to townread me, and the general risk/self-consciousness of it possibly coming across as fake. It doesn't strike me as either fitting in by sheeping people's reads nor boosting an agenda, this would be inventing a thought process solely because you thought you might post it as town. And overall I kinda think you'd be less likely to misremember a difference in my play in general if you were starting from an informed perspective

[GuiltyLion]

Scumplosion jumping on a wagon the minute he sees any traction on it

NM what'd you think of 272

I don't know if scum!implosion would post that if his intent is to continue to vote and push me later

[GuiltyLion]

bugspray and Pooky have both visited the site elsewhere but not here since the whole goats/GL thing, in a vacuum I find that slightly suspicious

I still townread Inf, implosion, Datisi, Dwlee, Gamma. I'm a little less pro N_M as I was earlier but I already committed him as My HardTown so gonna let that sit on the backburner for today

I can see Flea's play around me as kinda scummy regardless of if goats is town or not, the way they dropped the goats suspicion to angle to vote me could be either distancing or pivoting to capitalize on town pushing town, I also don't like that fae still hasn't put down a vote on me despite taking several opportunities to shade me

and I don't feel like I'm wrong on goats, even absent the point about Dwlee/GL partner idea being fake, the over the top performative way they've pushed my wagon and the misreps I'm struggling to convince myself come from town

Klick and MURDERCAT are total non-entities so far

[GuiltyLion]

i feel like making a triangle

what's a triangle?

[GuiltyLion]

yeah man you got me. I'm trying to convince the rest of the town to vote you out and am making posts that insinuate you are mafia. you really exposed my hidden motivations there.

Just for the record, I'm going to stop engaging with this for a while. In the event you are town here we clearly have incompatible playstyles/ideas and I don't really see a way forward of me not fixating on a scumread on you, nor us actually ever getting to a point of working together productively if you can't stop antagonizing me with the arrogance and the sarcasm

if you have genuine or good faith questions for me that might help you understand why I think what I think better then bring them forward, but otherwise I'm going to have to tune you out so I can hold onto my desire to actually play this game

like, as one last attempt as a serious reply to this, the scare quotes are nothing more than a way of trying to make me defensive. Missing posts or forgetting to reply to them isn't scummy and you sure as [censored for cyrus] should know that. I

always

make good on replying to things if people call out that I've missed them.

And this question you originally wanted me to reply to (as well as a bunch of your newer posts), it honestly saps my will to play if I try to reply to all of them. They're phrased leadingly, they're littered with subtle strawmen/misrepresentations of my posts, and the worst part is I'm sure that even if I did sit down and try to patiently tease out where you're twisting my words or trying to manipulate the thread perception around what I said, you'll just immediately jump in afterwards with a bunch more 'gotcha's, yanking me into an endless rabbit hole of this kind of pseudo bravado and tanking the gamestate into a toxic 1v1.

I almost think I might just

want

to think that you're scum because it's unpleasant to deal with people who play like this as town. it's been a while since I've been tunneled by someone so arrogantly in this way and I really just don't vibe with it.

[GuiltyLion]

THIS is the problem I had with GL earlier, exactly. He was doing something committal with his vote, and then he shifted it to a place where it was easier to pivot.

so you also claim to townread implosion for his response to Pooky, that's exactly where I re-evaluated on him

why do you think me then shifting to Dwlee is scum!motivated? Why are you treating the 'scum!GL needed to go to a "place where it's easier to pivot"' narrative as more likely than town!GL not having a strong scumread after his last vote started towntelling?

[GuiltyLion]

I feel good about bugspray - they have little to work off of, but their early pressure/thoughts on Gamma lined up with what I was thinking at the time closely enough that it felt like a towntell. I remember mindmelding in a similar way with them recently when they were town as well.

Can you link the game/post where this previous T-T mindmeld occurred?

I don't really grok "mind melding over the early pressure on Gamma" as enough for a solid TR here

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: Flea the Magician

I think if goats is town, Flea is the most likely scum setting up to jump on the freebie ML wagon and trying to do just enough to make sure it looks Good and Justified

[GuiltyLion]

hey @

MOD

I think you missed my vote for Flea in 367, I'm not voting goats anymore

[GuiltyLion]

i sus datisi, implo, and flea

why Datisi? and his question about why not move your vote to somebody else here is a good one too

[GuiltyLion]

I skimmed through and am caught up but it's 2am here so I'm about to fall asleep

I need to reread and rethink about Dwlee, I originally felt like he was genuinely unsure of me but the tentative/fencey way he's since approached it that goats/Infinity are calling out I could imagine being scum unsure how to play around me. but at the same time I also don't see any issues with his actual reads/conclusions for the most part. Dwlee can you walk me through how Pooky went from a SR to a TR for you, I don't think you explained that progression

I'm fine with a MURDERCAT wagon I agree with Pooky that his catchup throwing out a bunch of townreads and no scumreads feels like coasting
VOTE: MURDERCAT

more effort tomorrow but I'll be at a day event so it'll be in the evening

[GuiltyLion]

the tentative/fencey way he's since approached it that goats/Infinity are calling out I could imagine being scum unsure how to play around me

to try to explain this better cause I phrased it poorly cause tired, I vibe with what Infinity is pointing out that Dwlee said he townread me but didn't have any followup or questioning towards goats to further sort whether goats' push was town-motivated. I could see that being scum that doesn't want to vote on the wagon and look dirty if it goes through but at the same time isn't necessarily invested in slowing momentum of goats pushing the wagon - that hesitance of 'wanting the wagon to go through without me on it' is what I mean by "play around me"

[GuiltyLion]

I'm somewhat offput by goats's arc on GL at this point; in particular 351 is extremely out-for-blood in a world where quite a few people (me, datisi, infinity) that were not on goats's scumdar (in fact, this is exactly the list that they used to reinforce their point in 309) were starting to flip on GL. It's a little odd to me that, while they are trying to convince us that GL is still scum, they're not really acknowledging that there is real reason to have divested from GL suspicion. I'm not saying they themselves need to but the "I want to see who's on counterwagons" line is a bit strong. Even if it is like somewhat sardonic based on the 2nd line of the post.

^^this is goodposting

it's tough because there definitely exist some town players who will decide that their Scumread is Right and then aggressively push it to force the issue. I would guess goats plays like this as either alignment to a degree (if they're doing it as scum it's because they think they'd do it as town) - but the longer their scumread on me feels sticky the less I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt. Like I really don't get a sense that they've ever honestly tried to reassess or re-evaluate on me

[GuiltyLion]

Flea votes implosion in 59 as faer’s first post of the game, which does strike me as a bit odd.

I'm kind of two minds on this, I don't mind naked votes early game as I think you can often get Informative Content from the way people react to them, but with a hindsight townread on implosion it's certainly possible scum!Flea wanted to nudge an early miselim wagon along while skating by needing to give reasoning or commit to a degree of confidence. The bigger issue standing out to me is that Flea unvoted later and hasn't voted elsewhere since, even in spite of vocalizing a scumread on me while my wagon had momentum.

I don't like that you're dancing around a definitive read on Flea with your posts here, you had fae as town in 383 for 320, what's your past experience with Flea and how confident are you that fae doesn't post that as scum?

[GuiltyLion]

Because by that point I had already determined both implo and datisi were town and you should have too

like is nobody going to call this out?

Murdercat is scumreading me for not having implo at "town" when I dropped my readslist at 156

instead of townreading him off his interaction with me at 174 approximately 30 minutes later.



DOES THAT SOUND LIKE A REAL READ TO ANYONE HERE?!?!?!?


CAN ANYONE WITH A STRAIGHT FACE TELL ME THAT MURDERCAT!TOWN HAS THAT ACTUAL THOUGHT IN HIS HEAD???

I do vibe with this and it makes feel good about Pooky, I definitely didn't have implosion as town by 156 and I don't think it's reasonable to say we should have

I could understand it with Datisi but definitely not with implo, and doubly so because it was Pooky that baited implo between those posts into a readable reaction to begin with

that reminds me - Pooky did you ever post Flea games? I have no experience with Flea and I'm curious about these meta reads being tossed around because I'm finding Flea consistently scummy but I have no sense of faer normal playstyle

[GuiltyLion]

I wish I could swap implosion with Not_Mafia in my two D1 locktowns lol, 520 and 524 some definite catch-up mindmeld

[GuiltyLion]

I think Dwlee is still overall pretty probtown in spite of the looney tunes logic of 513 though, he's passing the vibe check

[GuiltyLion]

I think overall MC's spur of activity doesn't move the needle for me, I don't think it's outside of a good player's scumrange, and he's noticeably avoidant giving strong reads on some of the more peripheral but important slots like Flea and bugspray whereas his two more definitive scumreads (Dwlee/Pooky) feel convenient in that neither is a serious wagon but neither are popular townreads either. I can buy the suspicion on Dwlee but I don't think his reasoning for suspecting Pooky tracks especially given how much of it hedges on effectively "his reads in 156 are bad", and early game reads are often trash for most people, you're forcing content out of no information.

I don't really buy Infinity's suggestion that this is outside of MC's scumrange unless she has a ton of experience to back that up? has he never produced a half decent effort post as scum?

[GuiltyLion]

I don't see anything super notable in the movement from MC->bugspray I think it's mostly townies getting antsy with a slow wagon as soon as MC put in some effort. goats calling this out in 509/523 feels maybe townish? although I disagree that MC was acting significantly townier

overall I still like a towncore of Datisi, Infinity, Gamma, implosion, Dwlee, and I'll add Pooky there too as of his latest content. I wouldn't complain if bugspray went through, it's just an empty ISO, but I think anyone acting like it's good odds of scum is optimistic and I think if anything their lack of survivalism makes it a worse wagon than MC. Flea/Klick/goats is good odds of at least one scum in it I feel, and N_M disappearing makes me want to put him in that tier too

Infinity - I appreciate the links to those games, I'm about to call it a night but I think I should have a slower work day tomorrow and I'll try to read through them. I feel I've been in catchup mode too much since Friday, I'll make an effort to be more consistently around for Real Time Interactions tomorrow

[GuiltyLion]

why would I reassess on you GL? have you done anything worth reassessing? have you voted out scum or shown me how you're out of your scum range?

I'll unpause the goats mute to respond to this - I feel I already tried to show you one example of how I'm not playing how I like to play as scum and you didn't try to meet me there at all. I would hope my reads/thoughts should get me to clearly town status the longer I'm in this game, I'm already battling for top 3 in postcount that's another thing I can't do as scum

[GuiltyLion]

i think dwlee immediately seeing me as scum trying to derail the bugspray wagon but then being apathetic towards pooky having a similar line of thought is suggestive that they have a specific agenda and only care about those reasons when it's convenient to push that agenda

also this feels like again you're gloss over how there's like, worlds of context whenever two people make similar-at-a-surface-level arguments, and that context will affect how someone looks at one player vs another. The "we both made the same argument so either you consider us both scum or you're scum" reasoning isn't doing it for me, sorry

[GuiltyLion]

viewtopic.php?p=12574935#p12574935
viewtopic.php?p=12881813#p12881813

ok I lied about calling it a night earlier and I took a quick peek at both of these posts and I agree they're definitely a lot worse than what he posted here, and fairly recently as well too. I want to try to dig through a more complete look at his scumgames to see what his best effort looks like but I'll sleep on this as I agree these feel far more half-baked than 484

I'll UNVOTE:
for now and decide what I'm feeling tomorrow when I come back

[GuiltyLion]

not surprised by that response, going back to Not Trying To Defend Myself

I'll give you that Dwlee did dodge your question about it, that's fair. I don't think that makes him scummy but I guess 566 isn't a good point against you

anyway this my last post tonight for real this time, see y'all tomorrow

[GuiltyLion]

I do think this is strange because I don't have history playing with you, and certainly not with you and Pooky at the same time. Why should Pooky-specifically have been able to read me-specifically (and Datisi I guess but more interested in me) at that point in the game?

I don't really get why I have to defend this further, if someone in the game is trying to elim me and two of my town reads I'm going to be suspicious that they are scum trying to eliminate town.

The issue is you said that Pooky should have had implosion as town as of 156 - which is a dubious claim to begin with - but more importantly Pooky got there shortly after, saying he is "trying to elim" implosion isn't an accurate depiction of his play.

[GuiltyLion]

What if we just policy limmed not mafia.

as he is one of my two D1 locktowns I am obligated to reject this idea

[GuiltyLion]

I'm gonna look at some MURDERCAT scum games in between spells of work today to see what his top scum performance can look like cause I'm worried the Infinity examples might be closer to his worst rather than his average/best

I also dislike the argument on this page of "why would I not want a bugs hammer as scum" on first pass, feels WIFOMy

[GuiltyLion]

actually MURDERCAT what would you say is your best performance as scum onsite?

[GuiltyLion]

I'm gonna look at some MURDERCAT scum games in between spells of work today to see what his top scum performance can look like cause I'm worried the Infinity examples might be closer to his worst rather than his average/best

I also dislike the argument on this page of "why would I not want a bugs hammer as scum" on first pass, feels WIFOMy

It's this one: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=85633

I read through quite a bit of this ISO and didn't see anything at the level of depth of 484, the closest was probably this post but it still has that same weaksauce vibe as the posts Infinity linked. I read through more of the ISOs in those games, I also looked at this iso and again, not a lot of complex thoughts packed into a big wallpost, and when he did wall and give reads, again all surface level takes

The biggest difference I think between 484 and several of these catchup/reads posts from MC as scum is that in the scum reads posts he gives all his reads as finished conclusions he's made at the time of posting, whereas 484 some of his reads evolve through the post itself.

so either MC has notably ramped up his ability to fake nuanced thought processes in this particular game or he's just town, I'm in agreement with Infinity's read here now and don't support a MC wagon today.

[GuiltyLion]

i think that people had some decent arguments regarding GL's reaction to goats' push, specifically what he said about an early vote and whether or not it makes people less likely to be aligned. i think that his response was pretty well reasoned but even still i have too much respect for his scumgame to put him as a top townread just because we tended to have the same thoughts on things.

is this like an inverse pocket where you claim respect for my scumgame to get on my good side

but on a serious note, what are you basing this on, I feel my scumgame is noticeably weak compared to my towngame

[GuiltyLion]

Given by your own words I have not placed a vote, how am I setting up a misyeet vote when I've had more than enough oppotunity to jump on you by now?

I'm not following this - I didn't like that it felt like you were setting yourself up to vote me without committing, off the back of goats winding me up (in 276 and 317). It doesn't retroactively make those posts better just because you didn't follow through on them, if anything they've aged worse. Townies should be voting their scumreads to put them under real pressure and forcing everyone else to react to the wagon, not sitting around with no stakes in the game taking potshots at the players under fire

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: Flea the Magician

I don't like any of the Dwlee/MC/NSG wagons currently

Pooky - I see where you're coming from, I definitely don't think this is inspiring play from MC, but I noticed in another game he said "Infinity knows me best" and I think Infinity's meta read holds up

[GuiltyLion]

Everywhere I look Guilty Lions is making large posts and I think they're mostly content so that's a very good look

??

are you discussing this game with your hydra partner?

[GuiltyLion]

Not at all. This account was made to teach someone myself and the 3rd hydra partner know how to play mafia. I kinda just got lumped in without even being asked though LMAO so I've not participated much. However other games I'm in have ended recently and I was bored so I'm here

is there any kind of discord/PT where your other heads are discussing things?

p-edit: Flea I did already give the main one several times - you shaded me repeatedly while goats was hardpushing me yet never voted me. The secondary one is you haven't engaged with most of the slots in the game and haven't voted beyond your RVS this entire day phase, I'm not seeing any solving coming out of your play just dirt repeatedly thrown at me whenever you do post

p-p-edit: all these posts holy [Cyrus]

[GuiltyLion]

I think this hydra dissonance is probably legit and town-indicative

if scum!goats then I doubt a head comes in here and starts posting takes without reading their own ISO or consulting with them about the gamestate, especially one that contradicts a primary scumread
and I also think if scum!goats then whichever head was hard-pushing me would have been talking about it

so either this head is lying about not knowing the game or they're town

[GuiltyLion]

NewGoats can you please condense this catchup if you're going to do the entire game

[GuiltyLion]

I haven't read everything very closely since when I was last here but I checked MC meta earlier and Infinity is right about MC's takes being more nuanced here than several of his scum ISOs I sampled, see my 751.

Pooky why not join the Flea wagon?

[GuiltyLion]

i don't really think anything fae has been accused is ai

do you mean ai for faem specifically or ai in general? if it's the latter I would disagree but I'm going to bed early tonight so it'd have to be tomorrow

[GuiltyLion]

I think this hydra dissonance is probably legit and town-indicative

if scum!goats then I doubt a head comes in here and starts posting takes without reading their own ISO or consulting with them about the gamestate, especially one that contradicts a primary scumread
and I also think if scum!goats then whichever head was hard-pushing me would have been talking about it

so either this head is lying about not knowing the game or they're town

See GL is saying the exact things I am

And you're both extremely wrong to locktown a hydra for dissonance in the year of 2021

it's not just "dissonance" in the general sense it's specifically dissonance in how the second head came in claiming not to have read the game at all nor talked about it with their fellow hydra heads, and immediately townread me when I was the other head's primary scumread.

The only way I could see that as scum is if that was faked, because otherwise it's just too reckless for one of the heads to come in and post without having synced on the game with their other heads or their mafia scumbuddies at all. Town hydra can afford to do that but scum hydra it risks interfering with whatever agenda that the mafia team is pursuing, it'd be bad scumplay

that said I would like to hear from OriginalGoats whether they're reassessing given their other head's reads

[GuiltyLion]

Pooky is doing pooky things, cautious town for now.

what's your read on MURDERCAT?

[GuiltyLion]

I pretty strongly disagree with GL+whoever else said that goats's hydra dissonance is townie. I think it's very possible the 2nd head saw they were scum, said "well fuck that i don't feel like playing the game" then 4 days later was like "well i have some time i guess i can pop in and see what's up" or etc. With that said I have mixed feelings about the 2nd heads actual posting.

do you see what I'm saying though about how I don't think it's likely the second head starts playing without even checking what the other head is doing? I feel a scum!hydra would be more careful than to do that

p-edit: mmm that's a fair point. I've been mainly thinking about their read on me 180ing but I guess I could see the heads communicating a basic "push Dwlee other than that I don't care what you do" type of plan.

[GuiltyLion]

I think N_M falling off in posting is, potentially, actually scummy. From how I'm 2ndhand interpreting how to read him based on some offhand things PenguinPower said in another game I think his trajectory can quite easily be scum. Game dynamics make him feel like a better elimination than Flea right now. They both kind of feel like "this slot will never truly be all that readable" votes but, my understanding of the modern world is that it is actually possible to townread N_M. And if it is possible to do so, then this game is distinctly not something where it's really justifiable to do so right now.

I do agree with this, I don't really think N_M is as unreadable as he's often meme'd to be and there's been no re-evaluating or participating at all from him here as soon as the game got dense

@Gamma am I allowed to reverse on my D1 townread and vote N_M or no

[GuiltyLion]

whoops I meant to include that and just snip the quoted posts above, bc fae was dodging giving a read on MC. The fact that there's no engagement with Pooky's MC deathtunnel given a townread on Pooky is suspicious

I was planning to say more about that in a minute and case Flea proper once I was done catching up

[GuiltyLion]

yeah, two leading wagons at pressure refusing to vote one another

i was thinking how dwlee is town because they're not voting flea (and said they don't want to) when fae seems like the most likely counterwagon, then i wanted to vote flea, then i was like, wait if flea doesn't wanna vote dwlee who is faer most likely counterwagon, shouldn't i by the same logic be townreading fae but *then* i was like hang on a second, what would the dragon do here

It's context dependent but my view is that not voting your counterwagon is scummy more often than not - it's always better to flip somebody else over yourself and I think players who townread their CW to the point of avoiding voting it are either afraid of looking too survivalist or afraid of looking bad when their CW flips if it's town

that said I think we're like juuust far enough away from deadline or either wagon being close enough to elimination that I don't think it necessarily applies here

[GuiltyLion]

actually you know what

I was maybe halfway through laying out reasons to lim Flea today - the main ones being no initiative to engage with Pooky's push on MC indicating no incentive/drive to sort MC, the weird mixture of acknowledging a lack of engagement but effectively OMGUSing slots that are voting faer, and no use of vote or engagement with any of the main wagons of the game

but then as I was re-ISOing I was trying to think about 803 and that post really strikes me as genuine here

Given personal experiences with loved ones with PTSD I can see a lot of faer play making much more sense if their health/state has really been in that condition and I don't think scum would use it to excuse lurky/disengaged play

so I think I just need to reset completely on that read because I got major cold feet as I was writing up the case
you know how like once you start actually trying to write down your reasoning and then you're like wait am I just wrong and full of [Cyrus]
UNVOTE:

[GuiltyLion]

I don't wanna vote Dwlee I still think he's town, he doesn't feel like caught scum

I still think MC meta holds up

bleghhh I wanna vote like N_M or Klick? who's townreading Klick and why?

I wanna look at who's not really substantially engaging at all with the whole MC/Dwlee dynamic

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: Not_Mafia

sorry Gamma I'm voting my D1 townread

[GuiltyLion]

I still think MC meta holds up

mm, i feel like you might be putting too much stock in what sort of seems to be to be a fundamentally weak meta read. if murdercat's pattern of behavior here is replicated across many scum games but only the amount of content posted in one post differs, that seems to me to be sort of a poorly founded reason for a town read.

I am considering this, but it's also a trust of Infinity's read there as well to a degree, she initially called it out. And I don't think they're S-S.

Also, can you elaborate more on your stance on limming MURDERCAT today? You don't seem to townread him but you're voting the CW

[GuiltyLion]

my train of thought is, if murdercat flips red, good we got one, if green we just yeet pooks tomorrow (yes i am chaining)

I disagree with this, I don't think a green!MC would imply a red!Pooky. I don't see how it would serve him as scum to push so hard for a singular D1 ML here

[GuiltyLion]

I think the last sentence of 1120 is definitely a bit weird but I vibe with 1129, I remember NSG being a pretty easy read as town because she can't match her town WIM/transparency as scum. In fact I don't remember her ever beating me as scum but I am also not sure if I remember ever directly playing against her as scum? I'd have to go back and check but I do remember playing/reading a lot of games with both her and RC where the issue of her being a "lockscum if not obvtown" player came up frequently.

[GuiltyLion]

lol

are you joking or?

I mean maybe your wiki is out of date but:

"7-3 70% as Mafia/Werewolves"

@MC

did you check NSG's wiki before or after you posted 1109

[GuiltyLion]

can I ask for at least some form of catchup/reads from Enchant and ideally a goats reappearance before any hammer - the fact that the original goats head seems to have disappeared doesn't feel good to me

I really dislike NM's continued implosion tunnel, he's not a policy yeet for me he's a bonafide scumread

[GuiltyLion]

NSG when are you going to post your final point?

It's interesting you came to the opposite conclusion re:MC's meta, ultimately yeah I guess I have been putting a lot of stock in one post but I do think that post notably eclipsed anything I saw in many of his past scumgames

[GuiltyLion]

I don't need like a super comprehensive write up if that's taking too much effort I'm just curious what it is

to be frank the reason I'm asking is cause I don't really scumread any of the main drivers of this MC wagon and my suspect pool currently feels a little narrow so I'm trying to figure out if I'm townreading scum somewhere on this wagon or if I'm just wrong on MC and it'd help me to understand if you have more against him beyond a meta read / his suggestion to lim you - which I do agree was probably the worst thing he's posted

[GuiltyLion]

I could buy seeing a 70% scum winrate and thinking that means a good scumgame, but it was definitely lazy/disingenuous to assert that makes you a good elimination in lieu of like actually digging in at all to see what your scumgame looks like

[GuiltyLion]

cause he was pissed that clidd replaced out and they were likely to win if he didn't (correct me if i'm wrong pooky)

i'm not saying the ate has to serve a game purpose he just has to be mad about

something

Scum!Pooky here could be annoyed his mislim was falling through. I just think it's weird you think the ate here is beyond scum!Pooky.

do you think this could be scum!Infinity TMI townreading a town!Pooky or do you think scum!Pooky or what? I'm not understanding why the sudden pushback here or how it fits into your read of the game

[GuiltyLion]

okay yeah I'm glad you posted that, it makes me feel a lot better about you here and honestly the MC wagon in general. People were talking earlier about him being miselimmed in other games so I didn't have a sense of him being a hard-to-miselim player

and thank you! 6 year club whoop whoop!! happy to still be playing games after all this time with you fellow mafia nerds

[GuiltyLion]

Dwlee when did you sneak in the pagetop there

my post is for NSG if that's not clear

[GuiltyLion]

I dislike Datisi, who waiting something from me, like i could add something after 3 hours of replacement at night time, makes me think about Murder+Datisi team, expecting i say something dumb and become viable target instead.

why not start asking questions to get caught up, talking with people, etc? Usually when I replace in I see it as my job to get a foothold into the game, I don't like this deflection of responsibility here

[GuiltyLion]

i am kind of unnerved by implo seemingly fading into the background recently. maybe it's just because he hasn't written any of those wallposts in a bit but it feels like he's playing lower effort. which doesn't necessarily imply scum but it's noticeable at least

ditto but goats~

I've been following along but there just hasn't been all that much that's modified my core of reads at this point.

yeah I'm really wondering where the original goats head went, I think I was probably wrong to give them towncred for the new head coming in when the push on Dwlee was consistent

reskimming their ISO again I could see them as partners with MURDERCAT - a lot of early scumreading / light distancing but no vote, tunneled me instead, and when push came to shove and MC wagon took off they largely disappeared

[GuiltyLion]

I'll be around to hammer today if needed but I do wanna see if goats has anything to say

[GuiltyLion]

so what do you think a player should do when they replace into a game late on D1 with ~40+ pages at the key stage of the day where a wagon is going to get decided?

[GuiltyLion]

I feel like if you're gonna claim BoP on Pooky and lim him then it would have to be today

I'm not liking how easily Enchant and Dwlee both just hopped on the N_M wagon instead

[GuiltyLion]

Again trying to police NM?

Please stop, i need someone to perform extended quickhammers with me.
P.S. No really, NM is kind person which can prove self via time and pretty good at game.

Enchant what happened to this read?

[GuiltyLion]

I feel like if you're gonna claim BoP on Pooky and lim him then it would have to be today

There's a degree to which this is true, but there's also a degree to which the same thing is true if you replace "claim BoP on Pooky" with "deal with N_M doing jack shit".

That said, I definitely don't like Pooky opening today with a selfvote, it feels really performative. I am open to going that direction but it would make me happy to just have N_M dead since I think there's a very solid chance he just flips scum and I really can't imagine leaving him alive this game with him doing literally one thing and that thing being actively bad.

yeah, I get this and I agree with you that N_M is a better lim than Pooky, I think I'm mostly wanting to push on people who don't seem especially invested one way or the other

Enchant 1317 is weird but feels a little too brazen to be scum I think

overall I think I'm like here

S - {gamma, implosion, infinity}
A - {northsidegal}
B - {dwlee, enchant, pooky}
C - {flea, goats}
D - {not_mafia}

I'm most sure of the S tier being town, NSG is close to that but I'm not like 100% over the paranoia so she's in a largely-seems-good tier of her own. I think there must be a scum in my B tier but I have decent-ish reasons to townread each of them and I think those reasons are generally better than I have for the players below. Flea I do think has been genuine but I can't really ignore the fact that I have no idea where faer head is at with any reads/engagement with the game, goats hasn't done a lot townie outside of the hydra dissonance and I hate that the first head has seemingly disappeared altogether.

N_M is probably just scum I haven't seen him play this single-mindedly in a long time, I don't buy his implosion scumread at all.

@Gamma - so yeah I still have you as locktown but N_M I think is just scum who got me with a good early game

p-edit: hmmm I just saw DGB do a similar "didn't realize the NK" townslip as town, I could maybe buy that one

[GuiltyLion]

@NM - he feels pretty town to me, I even specifically reached out to you with a point where I thought he wasn't pushing me as scum would and you ignored it. I've mindmelded a few times with his posts and I don't believe that you haven't seen anything there that wouldn't make you question or reevaluate

he's also a really convenient slot to tunnel as he's not under a lot of pressure and so you've been leaning on your read there to ignore sorting or engaging with most of the other players in the game

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: goats
I feel like the fact an entire 3-head hydra just ghosted is a bad sign

yup, this

VOTE: goats

[GuiltyLion]

i join a 50+ page game with a wagon already on me before i even have time to read it because the slot i replaced was a hydra

no one has any actual reason to care what my reads are and when i die they'll just get ignored

why'd you join the game if you were going to react like this to a wagon on you? what would you be doing differently if we were voting elsewhere?

I get that it's frustrating to be suspected on a past player's actions but at the same time I feel this isn't abnormal when you replace into a game

And to address your other post it's not just that the hydra flaked out it's also for me the really disingenuous scumread and tunnel that your predecessor had on me to the point where I basically had to ignore them trying to wind me up every time I posted. I don't think you can answer for that really but if you're town you can absolutely be doing more to try to leave useful info after you flip, throwing a fit over being wagoned isn't that

[GuiltyLion]

if this flips town I would definitely go for Dwlee or Enchant before Pooky

[GuiltyLion]

Explain?

just today you've bounced from suspecting Pooky to voting N_M to now suggesting you want a goatsHail hammer, it feels like you don't have a real stake in who gets limmed today

[GuiltyLion]

and also anyone who is explicitly pushing the BoP argument on Pooky should be voting him IMO

assuming Pooky is town then I would think scum would want to keep him alive for another day here instead of resolving him first, all the while ensuring they'd have a trajectory to land on a vote on him later

[GuiltyLion]

hmmm

I think one on / one off is probably likely here? I could imagine scum!N_M being forced into hammering his buddy there and/or Dwlee playing for towncred with a bus if I'm being extra paranoid. Pooky I still feel is strongly town and Enchant's probably not scum here either given how he dismantled the N_M wagon and forced the goatsHail lim to go through instead - unless it's like exactly N_M/Enchant maybe

of the four off wagon, Infinity is probably town as I doubt she'd weakly defend a buddy like that. implosion's comments about the wagon going through without him don't strike me as especially partnery either

NSG being on the D1 miselim and largely absent the day we limmed scum makes me think she's got pretty good partner equity. I'd vote in NSG, N_M, or Flea

VOTE: northsidegal

[GuiltyLion]

I WAS THE FIRST ONE HARD SCUMREADING GOATS AHHH

I'm going to reread D1 soon but I don't think this is necessarily clearing?

do you think there was scum on wagon?

[GuiltyLion]

mm skimming the VCs y'all are right, they were voting Dwlee a lot longer than I had remembered, maybe it's just N_M if anyone on the wagon then

[GuiltyLion]

bugspray (5): Gamma Emerald, ,Dwlee99, Datisi,implosion ,Infinity 324

this was probably all town

[GuiltyLion]

I mean I don't think scum would never fight each other, they should have some emergency plan if one of them goes down, but yeah I stopped paying attention to goats for most of that first day so point taken

[GuiltyLion]

UNVOTE:

I'm willing to give Infinity time and I also kinda want to double check how goats/bugs interacted with each other on D1 if at all

I haven't committed to a reread yet been a busy work week

[GuiltyLion]

so with N_M's vote on NSG it pretty much certainly means her partner would be in flea/infinity/implosion right?

I doubt that scum would be incentivized to carry out a bus on a buddy on D1 in this set up, even if they look like dead weight. Distancing definitely in play but I don't know if I would think that scum!goats paired with scum!bugs would be

more

likely to vote there once it picks up 4-5 votes, I could buy them instead trying to promote the idea that the slot is just low hanging fruit

[GuiltyLion]

so with N_M's vote on NSG it pretty much certainly means her partner would be in flea/infinity/implosion right?

I doubt that scum would be incentivized to carry out a bus on a buddy on D1 in this set up, even if they look like dead weight. Distancing definitely in play but I don't know if I would think that scum!goats paired with scum!bugs would be

more

likely to vote there once it picks up 4-5 votes, I could buy them instead trying to promote the idea that the slot is just low hanging fruit

Go on then, on what planet am I scum with NSG?

if scum!NSG is being voted by a partner here it would be almost close to game throwing since I can hammer and already came into today voting/suspecting her

so if she is scum, her partner is off wagon here and you fall into that category

[GuiltyLion]

I'm finally around with some time to reread D1

early game goats comments on bugs:

I want everyone to pick out two people. For the rest of D1, you must treat them as hard town

If someone sticks to a questionable TR it’s probably a partner tell

how quickly you contradict yourself is pretty weird, these two statements cannot exist together

Sticking to a questionable TR because you have to as part of the wackstrat could never be a partner tell.

You literally skipped the post with the connection

you absolute baboon

Weird overreaction to a simple misunderstanding. You are probably scum.

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

This is outed actually. He was angry at bugspray being a baboon, implying anger at bugspray's stupidity or lack of reading comprehension. But then he votes bugspray on the basis that they were mafia and intentionally trying to make them look bad. Which makes them scum, not someone who lacks reading comprehension. I think Gamma is mafia who got tilted at being suspected for the wrong reasons by a townie who didn't read their post properly. Which is why he initially calls them a baboon and then switches to a fake reason to attack them after.

actually i think i'm gonna VOTE: bugspray

i don't think gamma provided any *great* rebuttals to bugspray, so the fact that they unvoted him anyway, and then voted implo (who just so happened to be the leading wagon) without any actual thoughts written out for why they did that? and with seeming a lot of confidence?

Did you see me explain why Gamma was most likely the mafia in that equation?

this is pretty consistent attitude with the later posts implosion already mentioned in the 500s where goats was calling bugspray LHF and doubting the wagon on bugs. overall the pattern is a default assumption that bugs is town, and using that to build a push on Gamma. bugs doesn't really strike me as particularly useful for scum to buddy if town, and I also don't get much of a sense that goats was worried about their bugs townread TMI-ing an otherwise mislimmable slot, especially since goats was fairly townread at this point. Overall it's easier for me to see benefits to goats taking these angles if scum!bugs rather than if town!bugs.

I also think this post:

name two people in this game other than me that want bugspray to live today. go

FWIW this read is also applicable to the mcat wagon. my bad for not picking it up earlier. but now mcat is acting much townier so it was probably right then and I don't see why it isn't right now

stands out, kinda feels to me like goats may have had an "oh shit, my reason for defending bugs also applies to murder, I'm being inconsistent" moment and felt self-conscious enough to try to retroactively address it

[GuiltyLion]

another post I noticed in rereading that I wanted to address separately:

I can see goats being scum who is just trying to derail by throwing out umpteen aggressive accusations

I'd say this kind of comment normally looks like distancing, shade but from a safe position where he doesn't follow it up at all, but the timing of it came when the general thread vibe was wholly pro-goats and both Dwlee/myself were picking up heat instead. I don't know if scum!N_M gains anything from casting light suspicion on a buddy in a singular post that largely goes ignored, I feel it's more likely he just wouldn't post this at all if they were partnered. There was no follow up/explanation on his goats read for a long time after this either, so if it was intentional distancing he didn't go anywhere with it

[GuiltyLion]

I am curious why bugspray is so high up and implosion is so low though @Klick

if goats is townreading bugs, why do they ask Klick to elaborate on his townread there - reinforce a townie's errant read on their partner? I notice that pattern a lot, scum love to ask townies why they townread scum (including themselves, the classic "why am I town?") so townies spend more time explaining and convincing themselves of the read. could also generate content to push Klick if bugs flips scum

[GuiltyLion]

none of this matters if there's no partner for nsg yeah? you were the one who brought that point up to begin with.

unless you're comfortable just calling the team as nsg/flea.

I think I'm looking for engagement from you/implo on these points mainly as you could both still be partners as well, despite my reads

I'm also gonna reread Flea interactions but there was a lot of friction between fae and NSG yesterday and I also felt Flea/goats tag teaming me on D1 didn't feel like two scum both piling on

I'm not sure how to resolve the "nsg feels most likely to be scum but has little to no partners" dilemma tbh

[GuiltyLion]

guiltyloion is obvtown i sus datisi, implo, and flea

guiltyloion is obvtown i sus datisi, implo, and flea

you are scum just for these reads

I could see this as cheeky theater

also I don't like that bugs called me obvtown but didn't engage with or even mention goats tunneling me

[GuiltyLion]

as a previous Dwlee tinfoiler I gotta say actually sitting down and rereading through the first 15-20 pages of the game again has put me a lot further away from any paranoia there, the voting/sparring with Dwlee was a lot more substantial than my initial recollection of it and there's a few interactions I see as really unlikely to be S-S. A big one being this whole sequence:

Also regarding you and goats it just isn't a priority for me to figure out right now. Neither of you are up for lim today and there's no point in me putting in effort with less information when I can do it with more later

vote GL and he'll be up for lim. we still have lots of time left

I don't want him up for lim.

how come?

More info will help us read him later in the game. Right now I think we hit scum limming in bugs/murdercat

More info will help us read him later in the game. Right now I think we hit scum limming in bugs/murdercat

that's a cop out answer and now I think you're partners again

GL has posted repeatedly this day phase and the case against as well as for him has been hashed out in great detail. how do you have no way to read him whatsoever?

Goats can you reread my post!

i reread it

still don't get why you aren't making an effort to sort GL when he has so much content this day phase to read into and want to just sit back and let info in future days help you read him

I'm not gonna get nightkilled. I have bigger scumreads. It's a waste of time

feels like goats trying to bully Dwlee into voting me rather than a dressed up argument with each other

[GuiltyLion]

I like,

can

be convinced on nsg but it'll take a fair amount. I do kind of buy her saying there's no way she'd have been trying to engage with the thread when she needed to sleep as scum to like some extent. Tbh there's a part of me that feels Pooky might even be the better lim than N_M but I just like, hate the idea of N_M living to 5p if we screw up twice and him auto-voting me and us just automatically losing if he's town. Though if he is town and we lim two other people I'd be quite surprised if we hadn't won at that point.

Pooky's play today is like quite underwhelming I think. Tonally I feel like they could just feel defeatist as scum.

I've only read through the most recent pages once without deep thinking about them

I guess if I assume town!NSG, Pooky claiming his vote today is just sheeping me is worrying. but I agree with Infinity that I don't think his behavior D2 felt like a bus

what'd you think of my point on NM's 248?

[GuiltyLion]

I don't really know what to do with the NSG posts from a couple days ago, I definitely believe she is busy and frustrated with being suspected for being busy so the emotions she was putting forward were real, but I don't think she necessarily doesn't feel those emotions as scum there? I'd like her to at least have time to reread D1 and partner hunt as she mentioned wanting to do

[GuiltyLion]

@implosion - like Infinity said, I don't get any sense from Pooky's D2 that he was trying to seriously push an alternative to goats nor get any towncred from goats flip, or even set himself up after a goats redflip

fuck it my cat can't be wrong on everything

VOTE: dwlee

this is not a post that's going to increase Dwlee's odds of being eliminated, and if he really wanted to give himself excuses/reasons to not vote a buddy bloodhail he didn't put any effort into it here

VOTE: bloodhail

ok lets try i guess

no effort to look good on a bloodhail redflip

im pretty susp of dwlee/enchant

why?
I kinda feel like enchant is town, somewhat by virtue of klick's play

im susp of enchant cuz our eod convo where he pulled out some random crap about sheeping me becuz im good felt like something enchant didnt come up with on his own cuz im pretty sure he's never played with me in a game where i like kill lots of baddies?

in fact he's played in a game with me where I'm like hilariously wrong on literally every read so I'm not sure town!him comes up with that line of thought where it's let's sheep Poooooooky!

im susp of dwlee cuz he was at 4 votes yesterday with me/murdercat/infy all voting him and nobody really pushed his wagon to 7 and that feels kind of weird if he's town and theres no scum on the wagon with him.

also murdercat said me/dwlee r scum and i know im town so i dunno if mr paragon completely whiffed but I'd like to think my cat caught at least like one baddie ya know?

plus the way their votes move this game don't feel like they are geniunenly considering things, feels like openwolfy bullshit to me.

but i was like totally wrong yesterday so im down to sheep and be a good baaaaaaaaaaaaaa vote

and with this post - I don't get the sense that he set himself up to push anyone on a goatsHail redflip? especially with the points re:Dwlee and goats being the 4th vote, his reason for suspecting Dwlee is invalidated as soon as goats flips and this was consistent in his attitude on D3 (1470).

[GuiltyLion]

like I agree the internal logic of keeping a vote on bloodHail while shading two of the voters is weird, but goatsHail flipping red makes me not care about it nearly as much because I think if he actually had an agenda to dismantle the wagon he would have tried harder and it's not hard for me to imagine this as disengaged town instead

[GuiltyLion]

the game is stagnating

VOTE: northsidegal

@Flea where is your head at with the game, I don't know who you want to lim today

[GuiltyLion]

I don't see how Enchant is scum unless it's Enchant+N_M but in that world we probably lim N_M first and win anyways

if it's Enchant+anyone else then I think N_M gets limmed yesterday instead of goatsHail

[GuiltyLion]

aaa sorry for the prod, happy labor day everyone I've been at a wedding this weekend

I get home in about 7-8 hours so I'll read up and start posting then. I feel I'm probably being snowed by either Pooky or implosion but I want to look at who would make most sense as partners for either before I do anything. I still think Dwlee/Enchant are town here

[GuiltyLion]

ok so traveling back home took a lot more out of me than I was anticipating, tomorrow is when I will Do Stuff For Real and be around to engage, please hold me to this

I was thinking a bit on the journey back though that I don't think Flea's disengagedness/continued shade towards me feels all that scummy, I think if fae were scum fae would be more self-conscious about pushing me and also probably trying harder?

N_M is probably my preferred vote in a vacuum, I can imagine a Pooky/N_M team

my abridged reads are probably like

{Dwlee, Enchant} - don't see myself voting today
{implosion} - want to reread and think on him but I still kinda feel a lot of mindmeld and genuine solviness coming from him, very similar to the last game we just played together
{Flea, Pooky} - I think 1S/1T in here probably assuming I'm not wrong on the top 3
{N_M} - and I could see as scum with pretty much anyone but implosion

Pooky - can you explain what you're scumreading in Enchant from the past few game days? I remember you not liking his reasoning for sheeping you on murder, is that still the main point you have against him? sorry if I forgot/missed it but have you commented on my point about how he swung the D2 lim from N_M to goats?

[GuiltyLion]

I've been looking at the VCs but haven't been able to draw a whole lot out of it largely because goats wasn't wagoned on D1 and on D2 they didn't have much of a counterwagon other than the first N_M wagon

one thing that stands out that I hadn't caught before is that the Klick/Enchant vote stayed on MURDERCAT from 373 all the way through EOD1, and shortly before Klick was replaced there was VC 1.13 where that was the only slot voting MC, though MC had been a large topic of discussion for much of the day by this point and Datisi/Dwlee votes were pretty quick to land back on MC immediately after this point.

IMO that's solid evidence of at least one scum in {Dwlee/Pooky/N_M}. If the team were something in Enchant/implo, Enchant/Flea, or implo/Flea then it would mean 6 townies drove a D1 miselim with virtually no encouragement from scum - implo was pushing N_M and Flea was fighting with NSG, and Enchant wasn't championing a MC elimination either, he claimed to have not read

I also reread through a bit of Dwlee/goats D1 again and I thiiink I can quell any lingering paranoia there, I also had forgotten about Dwlee/implo both pushing back pretty strongly on my hydra dissonance townread of goats when Essoa or whoever it was started playing which further feels anti-associative given goats wasn't under a lot of pressure from elsewhere at that point

I really can't get a comfortable read on Flea but even if fae is scum off wagon I think we still win in Pooky/N_M eliminations given ^^. Enchant could also be partnered with either I guess but I'm definitely more worried about a Pooky/N_M world than an Enchant/(implo or Flea) world

I think as long as we can bank the game on Dwlee being town, this wins - someone tell me where I'm wrong

[GuiltyLion]

N_M, who is implo's partner?

[GuiltyLion]

then it would mean 6 townies drove a D1 miselim with virtually no encouragement from scum

I don't think this should be ruled out though. Scum are actually typically less likely to appear on a town wagon.

on D1 with 13p with the already flipped scum off wagon? I dunno

[GuiltyLion]

@Pooky - who do you think would be Enchant's partner?

[GuiltyLion]

I don't think Enchant/Flea makes sense for reasons I've previously stated

I could see Enchant/NM but I'd vote to lim NM first in case Enchant's town

I'm pretty sure I said this earlier but I feel NM is the only viable partner for Enchant

[GuiltyLion]

vote count 2.1

Not_Mafia

:

(e2)

infinity324, implosion,Enchant,Dwlee99,

PookyTheMagicalBear

: (1) PookyTheMagicalBear,
]Not Voting[/b]:(6) Gamma Emerald, Northsidegal,,Not_Mafia, ,GuiltyLion,goats,FleaThemagician, with 11 alive it takes 6 votes to be kicked off the island[/area] day2 ends in (expired on 2021-08-29 17:02:31)

mod note goats, has been proded they have till (expired on 2021-08-23 17:25:05) to post before they are replaced

UNVOTE:

I don't see any scum agenda in this unvote unless they're partnered

if N_M is town he's the easiest lim to push through here

like do you think he was hoping a townie would take his spot on the wagon instead?

[GuiltyLion]

If two, I think flea is likely scum because goats put fae in the "maybe" pile where it's easy to be non-committal with scum partners?

My impression was the "maybe" is slightly less partner-y since it distinguishes Flea from the rest of the players in the post, but I don't think I can read too much into it either way.

also, I really disagree that my reasons for townreading Enchant are bad. The D1 elimination point is less to do with town!Enchant but more to do with it likely not being Enchant/Flea or Enchant/implo. But I think him unvoting N_M is actually a really strong sign he is town here.

I don't understand why you're so quick to write that off in 1783 like it was just some random post or thought. it's more than that, he took the momentum out of the leading wagon, that's not something scum are incentivized to do. I see town do that far more often, it's not a natural thing to think to fake,

especially

because he didn't even push a different wagon elsewhere when he did it.

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: Not_Mafia

I'd 100% prefer this over Enchant, an Enchant townflip means we'd be [Cyrus]'d if the team is anything but Pooky/N_M

[GuiltyLion]

yah this looks like it's probably Enchant/N_M after all

fine with hammer, I don't think there's much more to say - sorry for fading on this game a bit over the past Day

[GuiltyLion]

dwlee shot is interesting, i was kind of expecting GL to die. I need to look at GL's reasons for it being not enchant/flea. I also need to look at GL but I still really doubt that I'm going to be swayed on him.

what do you make of me still being alive?

my thinking behind ruling out enchant/flea was mainly just skepticism that Murder elim happens with none of the scum team being involved. Klick/Enchant slot was the first vote on the final wagon comp but it was parked there from the beginning of D1 and then neither player was present when MC got most of the scrutiny, goats was actively pushing back against the wagon, and Flea was also either non-present or pushing alternatives throughout D1 as well

Part of me wants to believe this is still valid and Pooky is the correct lim here but I also think if Pooky were scum/Enchant town I would likely be killed instead of Dwlee to go for a game winning Enchant miselim, so I feel I must be wrong about either Enchant or Pooky to be brought here

but a problem is I still don't see anyone alive who makes sense with Enchant

[GuiltyLion]

Flea, who's your top choice here

and is anyone scumreading implosion?

[GuiltyLion]

I'm here

[GuiltyLion]

and I'm certainly not coordinating any quickhammers with anybody, so we can be sure the game is not ending

I'm leaning Flea here as well and I'm wondering if Pooky is bluffing the willingness to vote here

[GuiltyLion]

Pooky at what point did you start seriously considering Flea for a lim this game?

[GuiltyLion]

Is there a reason you aren't voting Enchant? FYPOV, the game should be lost if Enchant is town, yes?

this is a good point, I have been caught on this as scum before

viewtopic.php?p=10673508#p10673508

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: Flea

[GuiltyLion]

I feel a little bad I coasted so much after the NSG elimination but it's hard for me to keep finding the well of inspiration to keep up appearances for so long

goats did a heck of a job distancing with me on D1 that was the key to winning I think, wish they had stuck around but I knew I had to vote them as soon as they disappeared cause a hydra flaking out was super suspicious

[GuiltyLion]

@Cyrus - can you check the permissions on the dead pt? I can't read it yet. I dunno if you want consent for mafia PT release but no redactions in there on my end. Thanks so much for modding I enjoyed getting a sense of your taste in music along with the game!

sorry Datisi we had to kill you because I couldn't keep lying to you like that all game ;A;

[GuiltyLion]

Wait we won? Surprised.

yo

fantastic

job on the timing of that Flea vote!! That's the kind of assertive move I need to learn to do more as scum