White flag #824 game over
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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yes!!! maybe finally THIS WILL BE THE GAME
Gamma, what's the point of picking people before any interactions? I feel like I'd rather find actual townreads instead of making up arbitrary ones"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I choose Not_Mafia as the first of my hardtowns"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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^not only is it pointless, but specifically phrasing it as "4%" instead of something like "one of your posts" rubs me the wrong way, like implosion is trying to make it sound worse"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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can you elaborate on this one? I don't see how that post makes Dwlee any more likely town, he's just accepting a townread on him from FleaIn post 69, implosion wrote:dwlee likely town for that.
I also don't vibe with your Datisi scumread, I feel 47 is town!indicative from him because if he were scum wanting to bullshit a read on me he would have likely checked the Coalition game first to see whether he could find something different in my play, rather than claiming suspicion first without checking. Forgetting that I naked voted in the last game doesn't feel to me like the kind of fake thought process that scum would make up if he knew I'm town here"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I'm selecting Gamma as my other hard townread
Infinity are you townreading bugspray?"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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you did claim suspicion on me thoughIn post 97, Datisi wrote:i am not sure i like this. specifically the bolded part, that never happened. i didn't claim suspicion on you without checking - at the time of typing 47, i had already checked coalition and knew you weren't actually suspicious for naked voting.
Maybe I should have rephrased my post to say "claimedIn post 47, Datisi wrote:i was gonna make a post saying how i also didn't like guiltylion, because him naked voting implo without any given thought felt odd, because in the coalition run i recently modded, he voted on page one after providing decent reasoning firstto havesuspicion on me", I didn't mean to imply you were claiming to suspect me in *this* thread, but you very clearly expressed that you were suspicious of me prior to having checked Coalition, that's the point I was making"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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But why would scum!Datisi go through with posting that regardless afterwards once he confirmed it wasn't indicative and I was consistent across the two games?In post 86, implosion wrote:I don't see why scum Datisi can't have seen your vote here and said "oh, i think this is a difference in GL's play" and then gone back and seen that it wasn't."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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I don't like this, feels like you're embellishing calling it "massively" over explanatoryIn post 110, Flea The Magician wrote:
And this feels massively over explanatory for page 4/5...In post 98, goats wrote:VOTE: Gamma Emerald
This is outed actually. He was angry at bugspray being a baboon, implying anger at bugspray's stupidity or lack of reading comprehension. But then he votes bugspray on the basis that they were mafia and intentionally trying to make them look bad. Which makes them scum, not someone who lacks reading comprehension. I think Gamma is mafia who got tilted at being suspected for the wrong reasons by a townie who didn't read their post properly. Which is why he initially calls them a baboon and then switches to a fake reason to attack them after."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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VOTE: Dwlee
are you still scumreading implosion and what are your other reads"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I think I like NM, Gamma, goats, Datisi, Infinity for town so far
That VC made me hate the wagon I was on despite still not really feeling any townie vibes from implosion yet
everyone else still various flavors of non-entity to scummy"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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@pooky re:your reply to my 131 - I haven't played with Flea before, can you link me to some past games you played or read with them? I still don't like that post and fae haven't given many reads to work with
I definitely feel the townvibes from that implo rage I don't think I've ever seen a game where he emoted like that as scum"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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How is it a "reach" to say your post wasn't over explanatory, especially not "massively" so?In post 200, goats wrote:
This is a huge reach.In post 131, GuiltyLion wrote:
I don't like this, feels like you're embellishing calling it "massively" over explanatoryIn post 110, Flea The Magician wrote:
And this feels massively over explanatory for page 4/5...In post 98, goats wrote:VOTE: Gamma Emerald
This is outed actually. He was angry at bugspray being a baboon, implying anger at bugspray's stupidity or lack of reading comprehension. But then he votes bugspray on the basis that they were mafia and intentionally trying to make them look bad. Which makes them scum, not someone who lacks reading comprehension. I think Gamma is mafia who got tilted at being suspected for the wrong reasons by a townie who didn't read their post properly. Which is why he initially calls them a baboon and then switches to a fake reason to attack them after.
VOTE: GuiltyLion"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Why Klick and why Flea?In post 210, goats wrote:Pooky, NM, Klick, and Infinity can be trusted. Maybe Flea.
I think GL's vote on Dwlee can easily be partnered. I would call GL my second top scumread right now.
and especially how would my vote on Dwlee make sense as a partner vote when this is explicitly a setup that punishes bussing more than usual? Like if I were scum the last thing I would be doing right now is voting a partner when I could probably come up with an excuse to vote almost anyone"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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thinking about it more I'm having a hard time seeing how us being partners is a genuine read or thought
VOTE: goats"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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this is assuming that I'm scum first and writing a narrative secondIn post 223, goats wrote:You never outed a really strong scumread of him it was more like a "oh I can't find any other palatable options, guess I'll kick dwlee's ass in gear". All he has to do is show up and post and you have an excuse to shift the vote off him.
I didn't have any strong scumreads and Dwlee hadn't done anything to read him off of, that makes him a good vote. The issue is your thought process, apparently "scum who has no other viable options voting his partner on early D1" is somehow more likely than "town with a handful of townreads on active players pushing an inactive slot to participate"? I can't see that coming from someone reasoning about my posts in good faith"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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This is not at all what I said, actuallyIn post 225, goats wrote:3) GL says "I can't possibly be partners with dwlee, I voted him one time!""I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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no, you're trying to frame what I said as being an argument about whether or not I'm scum with Dwlee, but that's not what I'm arguing about. I don't need to argue or convince anybody of me not being scum with Dwlee because I already know it's not true.
Instead what I am pushing on is your thought process, what I am saying is that it'sreally hardfor me to grok town in your shoes seeing a scumread voting another scumread and using that as evidence to reinforce their scumread on both players, particularly in a white flag game. You're starting with a conclusion you want to push ("GL is scum") and then arguing from that position in the face of what should have been relatively decent-to-strong evidence immediately to the contrary."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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This is exactly what scum!Koba just pulled in Coalition when I started arguing back at him after he tried to bullshit a fake early game scumread on meIn post 232, goats wrote:I'm not engaging w/ you any more.
You still haven't answered why I would vote one of my partners instead of literally anyone else during the stage of the game when it's easiest to come up with reasons to vote almost anybody. Seeing a scumread vote another scumread absolutely should prompt you to think about whether you're wrong on one of those reads more than it should make you think "oh scum must be distancing with each other!!". The odds of both me and Dwlee being scum together a priori are already low in a vacuum, and then the idea that I must be voting him as part of some nefarious scum distancing agenda feels a lot more like trying to shoehorn your read into making sense rather than genuinely evaluating potential town!explanations for why I'm voting where I'm voting.
Like even using your own logic, if the vote is so half baked or easily moved that I get no anti-associative credit from it, then what would be the benefit to scum!me for doing it? Again, why vote my partner over anyone else if I'm just locking myself into needing to back off of it later?"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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sorry, arguing back at them after they tried to bullshit a fake early game scumread on me*"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I mean yes? I don't look at the first or second vote of my scumreads and assume that means they're partnered or aligned, that's usually evidence they aren't alignedIn post 244, Datisi wrote:
:/In post 230, GuiltyLion wrote:Instead what I am pushing on is your thought process, what I am saying is that it's really hard for me to grok town in your shoes seeing a scumread voting another scumread and using that as evidence to reinforce their scumread on both players, particularly in a white flag game. You're starting with a conclusion you want to push ("GL is scum") and then arguing from that position in the face of what should have been relatively decent-to-strong evidence immediately to the contrary.
guilty, do you really genuinely believe that one person voting another in what was essentially rvs is" decent-to-strong evidence" for the two of them not being partnered?
maybe I'm baited and biased because of where I'm sitting but this:
just stands out as fake, like he's looking for a reason to excuse the inconsistency in his read on me and his read on Dwlee, and I'm kinda shmorcked that you and implosion seem to see some other wayIn post 210, goats wrote:I think GL's vote on Dwlee can easily be partnered. I would call GL my second top scumread right now."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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how is it vapid??In post 249, implosion wrote:"The last thing I would be doing right now is voting a partner" when we're in the first day or two of the game, and Datisi wasn't really a wagon with steam, is a vapid take.
like, let's say I scum with Dwlee, I vote him, he picks up a handful of votes and then I decide to bail because his wagon is getting too serious. That's going to look infinitely worse on us if either of us were to flip?? that's absolutely not how I play scum, pointlessly set myself up for a harder-to-navigate trajectory for no real gain whatsoever.
How can you not see this as a misrep?
That's never the argument I'm making, and this:In post 225, goats wrote:3) GL says "I can't possibly be partners with dwlee, I voted him one time!"
is exactly the point. There's not really a strong reason to see it as partner indicative, if anything like I said it'd be slightly less so - so the fact that goats concludes an explanation that requires the most assumptions (scum!Dwlee, scum!GL, scum!GL votes partner) is agenda-driven thinking.In post 249, implosion wrote:This also seems like trying to have your cake and eat it too. You're saying that goats's logic is wrong because scum wouldn't want to bus right now because the setup disincentivizes it, *but also* scum wouldn't bus right now because they won't get anti-associative credit from it if they can move it. Doesn't the second logic invalidate the first? I know you're saying "using your own logic" but the same trick can be flipped on you here"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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and this is gloatingIn post 252, goats wrote:
it looks like the not engaging strat is working out well for me eh?In post 232, goats wrote:I'm not engaging w/ you any more. I'm not gonna convince you to admit that you're scum and I'd rather let you sit here and dig a hole for yourself.
@everyone else vote GL if you want to become confirmed town for free after he flips mafia. no mafia would vote for another mafia d1 after all"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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whatever, I'm probably too riled up to come here and see townreads voting me for pointing out that scum!GL/scum!Dwlee is a ridiculous take - will be back tomorrow"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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like "minimally committal" is just not how I play scum and I have tons of previous mafia PT posts to back this up"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Ugh
I think the reason I got so tilted last night is because in my most recent loss, Divide and Conquer, I got miselimmed in LYLO because scum successfully argued that I played really tentatively and awkwardly around Bingle (not my partner), that my vote/attitude him was distancing when I had basically waffled and not pushed him 'enough' as town on D1. Again I had tried to make the same point (yes, self meta, but I can pull from endless mafia PTs or towngames where I make the same point over and over) that my intentions as scum are either to not bus and townread or to distance meaningfully and extensively.
A "hey you, come play" vote on my partner is not something I would like or tend to do as scum and it is frustrating to see people I think are likely town here like Dats buying into the narrative that goats sold with no justification whatsoever.
I probably overreacted but it's a dumb read and I think it's fake. And now you have Flea isalivating at the opportunity to vote me. I don't like infinity calling me scum and not voting me either.
Do I need to pull the receipts for yall to listen to me? I can when I wake up and get out of bed on my PC later today"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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Dwlee is town for his reaction here seeing that my frustration is real and not immediately taking that as a reason to suspect/push me"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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Also implosion is townie for the olive branch reach out as well
Flea shading me in 276 is a real bad look and I think an attempt to goad me into flailing further. There's no point to that post except to try to make me look bad, no attempt at engaging."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Datisi please reread goats posts assuming you had my green flip
The way he pushes me just vibes scum to me. Arrogant, making up narratives, not grounded in any genuine suspicion. I think he knows I'm green as well"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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At the risk of completely embarrassing myself, I do see what you're saying here. I think I initially lazy shelved goats as a townread for playing ~ aggressive ~ and because I did think Gamma was being reactive in a way that I could imagine a town!goats genuinely scumreading, and then when I saw you calling it a "massive" reach I didn't buy that because I felt you may be trying to make it look worse than it actually wasIn post 274, Flea The Magician wrote:What do you actually think of that initial post?
You know, the one that infers Gamma is
Angry at bugs being a baboon
Angry at bugs stupidity and lack of reading comprehension
Voting because he believes someone is scum
Tilted
Caught for the wrong reasons by the lack of reading comprehension
Reacts adversely, causing point 1
Uses fake justification for an attack
Having now been on the other end of a goats push, I am rethinking this a bit now, because I do see the point about how he assumed Gamma was scum caught for bad reasons and he efinitely wasn't giving any weight to a town!Gamma explanation for his behavior
Let me turn this back to you, what is your reads on goats now and why do you not see his claim that me/Dwlee "can easily be partnered" as a similar reach? Fmpov that one is worse because he's straight up making assumptions about alignments rather than reads/motivations"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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I will give the examples in maybe 2-3 hours time"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I guess the main thing I want/need to clarify is like
My intention was never to argue about clearing myself and I don't think my initial posts did, or at least I didn't mean to. Goats has certainly framed them that way.
Rather I was trying to make the point that saying "I can easily see this as partnered" - without putting any reassessing on whether it's possible/likely that town!GL is suspecting/poking a mutually suspected empty slot - is what strikes me as fake. There was no consideration that I may be town, just an assertion that their two scumreads make sense together
I guess if you don't know my alignment it's harder to see, but I really disagree the push was reasonable or town-motivated, especially once they started framing it as me saying we are never partners. I think I got baited into having that argument when it wasn't what I was trying to have
P-edit: I'm sorry, I'll be more careful to get it right going forward"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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In post 223, goats wrote:You never outed a really strong scumread of him it was more like a "oh I can't find any other palatable options, guess I'll kick dwlee's ass in gear".
These the misreps.In post 225, goats wrote:3) GL says "I can't possibly be partners with dwlee, I voted him one time!"
Rereading my own 220, I think people are misinterpreting it. I wasn't trying to clear myself there, though I do see how someone could read it that way. But my intent was to try to pressure goats on why their narrative for my play was the likely/correct explanation"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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Eh, it didn't strike me as a sanity check, I thought it was a preemptive handwave of something they knew they might get questioned on or should be reevaluating. Maybe I need to try more to put myself into the headspace of how it looks to a third party but it's hard when they immediately start misrepping and gloating and playing to the rest of the thread"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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It also felt like I was being manipulated into keeping my vote on Dwlee, but maybe I invented that"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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uh okay so this is definitely embarrassing but when I started going back through my old scum games/PTs to try to find good posts that would summarize why I don't like to awkwardly commit myself to suspecting/voting partners early game as scum, I actually realized that I forgot that Ididrecently try such a maneuver in my most recent scumgame last year, Forest Fire (link is to the initial distance vote)
here's my post after D1 in the maf PT where I am identifying how it put me in a bad spot, like this is pretty much exactly why I try to avoid it as scum because it played out risky/badly on D1 as expected. But it is kinda egg on my face to see I haven't been completely above trying that move, I remembered fighting with Ydrasse in game making posts more like this but forgot how tentative the initial distancing/vote was.
so while yes I guess I have done it before and maybe it's not unreasonable for someone to think that, I wasn't lying about how I don'tliketo do that as scum and I DO have the receipts of me saying this same thing as town:
1) here (last post before I was misyeeted in DnC, read this + quoted)
2) here ("the idea that I'd open the game as scum by pressuring my partner instead of anyone else I could go after is pretty questionable, to put it lightly")
3) here ("I can show you many past scumgames of me treating my newbie scum partners with kiddie gloves, especially on D1 since I don't like unnecessary attention on them until/unless I'm confident they can handle it." - this is speaking specifically about being partner with a newbie but the latter sentence is true for any partners)
4) here ("I doubt this one will mean a lot coming from me as it's WIFOM and self-meta, but as a point of pride, I really try very hard as scum not to be clumsy about my associatives with my partner. I'll always try to take a firm stance on them whether I'm bussing or townreading and commit to it, I don't make waffley awkward moves around them and if I decide to bus I commit. Later I can pull some scum PTs where I've said as much.")
5) here ("again, me being anyone's top possible scumread is fairly absurd, frankly. to think that I am scum means I decided to death tunnel one of my partners on D1 over literally any other available mislynch. I didn't just casually vote BuJaber as a distance and get stuck there, I put my foot on the gas for that lynch multiple times. Against a mason setup that's extremely suboptimal play" - this one is a slightly different context as I hardpushed scum!BuJaber to an eventual scumflip D1, but the phrasing/point is very similar with regard to a mason setup/white flag setup where Bussing is Bad with a capital B)"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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and to make it clear again here is why I don't buy goats' idea that I'd have no available options to vote anyone other than a partner!DwleeIn post 265, GuiltyLion wrote:like, let's say I scum with Dwlee, I vote him, he picks up a handful of votes and then I decide to bail because his wagon is getting too serious. That's going to look infinitely worse on us if either of us were to flip?? that's absolutely not how I play scum, pointlessly set myself up for a harder-to-navigate trajectory for no real gain whatsoever."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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can you explain what you mean by "defense attempt using mech as a way out", I don't follow what you're saying. When you say "using mech" are you talking about my point that I don't think I would bus in a bussing-worse-than-normal setup?In post 317, Flea The Magician wrote:Yours on me, is one of the awful ones as you got nothing from it and honestly it looks like a defence attempt using mech as way out."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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serious question: why the scare quotes? Why is every post of yours an attempt to make me look as bad as possible?In post 318, goats wrote:
gentle reminder for GL in case he "forgot" about thisIn post 309, goats wrote:oh yeah I guess I lied about not engaging with you because I'm really eager to hear your response to this:
multiple people (implosion, datisi, infinity) all echo the reason I had to scumread you (trying to convince us that you can't be partners with dwlee because you voted them one time). if im making up narratives and not arguing in good faith and my suspicion is just so bad it can't be genuine... what are they? scum too?
this is also an attempt at a "gotcha" contradiction rather than a good faith reading of my posts, the obvious difference in context is that you specifically claimed to scumread both of us and that you see us as partnered, then went on to say I had no "palatable options" of voting elsewhere.
Whereas the others are more pushing back on my scumread of you and my argument that YOUR argument is fake. I don't believe any of them claim to share your view that Dwlee/GL was S-S, that's the difference."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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anyway I'm gonna try to stop beating on this drum for a bit as I think this game is getting a bit too centered on me defending myself/my goats read
One other thing though Flea
what about their style makes them town? This isn't a read, it's just a reason to not be voting them / to vote alongside themIn post 317, Flea The Magician wrote:I'm fairly good on goats rn, isn't someone I'd be willing to take into YOLO at this point but I like their style"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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ah sorry, I missed that last night
it's not based on an idea of your scumgame specifically, its grounded in whether or not youIn post 247, Datisi wrote:i guess my q is, why are you so sure that i don't post that as scum? i *think* your idea of my scumgame is pretty outdated, but i know you read at least one of my morr recent games, so i'm curious how you got here.knowmy alignment here. If you were scum, even if you had genuinely thought that you remembered a surface level difference in my play from my last town game to use as evidence for a fabricated push, I think once you went and checked and saw that I was consistent you'd just be less inclined to bring it up at all.
The sentiment is effectively "I thought GL was different than his town game, but I just checked and it was the same" - what benefit does that serve you at that point? there's just more disincentives for scum to post this, its convoluted, doesn't help you push me nor is it used as a reason to townread me, and the general risk/self-consciousness of it possibly coming across as fake. It doesn't strike me as either fitting in by sheeping people's reads nor boosting an agenda, this would be inventing a thought process solely because you thought you might post it as town. And overall I kinda think you'd be less likely to misremember a difference in my play in general if you were starting from an informed perspective"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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NM what'd you think of 272In post 273, Not_Mafia wrote:Scumplosion jumping on a wagon the minute he sees any traction on it
I don't know if scum!implosion would post that if his intent is to continue to vote and push me later"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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bugspray and Pooky have both visited the site elsewhere but not here since the whole goats/GL thing, in a vacuum I find that slightly suspicious
I still townread Inf, implosion, Datisi, Dwlee, Gamma. I'm a little less pro N_M as I was earlier but I already committed him as My HardTown so gonna let that sit on the backburner for today
I can see Flea's play around me as kinda scummy regardless of if goats is town or not, the way they dropped the goats suspicion to angle to vote me could be either distancing or pivoting to capitalize on town pushing town, I also don't like that fae still hasn't put down a vote on me despite taking several opportunities to shade me
and I don't feel like I'm wrong on goats, even absent the point about Dwlee/GL partner idea being fake, the over the top performative way they've pushed my wagon and the misreps I'm struggling to convince myself come from town
Klick and MURDERCAT are total non-entities so far"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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what's a triangle?In post 339, Datisi wrote:i feel like making a triangle"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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Just for the record, I'm going to stop engaging with this for a while. In the event you are town here we clearly have incompatible playstyles/ideas and I don't really see a way forward of me not fixating on a scumread on you, nor us actually ever getting to a point of working together productively if you can't stop antagonizing me with the arrogance and the sarcasmIn post 346, goats wrote:yeah man you got me. I'm trying to convince the rest of the town to vote you out and am making posts that insinuate you are mafia. you really exposed my hidden motivations there.
if you have genuine or good faith questions for me that might help you understand why I think what I think better then bring them forward, but otherwise I'm going to have to tune you out so I can hold onto my desire to actually play this game
like, as one last attempt as a serious reply to this, the scare quotes are nothing more than a way of trying to make me defensive. Missing posts or forgetting to reply to them isn't scummy and you sure as [censored for cyrus] should know that. Ialwaysmake good on replying to things if people call out that I've missed them.
And this question you originally wanted me to reply to (as well as a bunch of your newer posts), it honestly saps my will to play if I try to reply to all of them. They're phrased leadingly, they're littered with subtle strawmen/misrepresentations of my posts, and the worst part is I'm sure that even if I did sit down and try to patiently tease out where you're twisting my words or trying to manipulate the thread perception around what I said, you'll just immediately jump in afterwards with a bunch more 'gotcha's, yanking me into an endless rabbit hole of this kind of pseudo bravado and tanking the gamestate into a toxic 1v1.
I almost think I might justwantto think that you're scum because it's unpleasant to deal with people who play like this as town. it's been a while since I've been tunneled by someone so arrogantly in this way and I really just don't vibe with it."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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so you also claim to townread implosion for his response to Pooky, that's exactly where I re-evaluated on himIn post 352, Klick wrote:THIS is the problem I had with GL earlier, exactly. He was doing something committal with his vote, and then he shifted it to a place where it was easier to pivot.
why do you think me then shifting to Dwlee is scum!motivated? Why are you treating the 'scum!GL needed to go to a "place where it's easier to pivot"' narrative as more likely than town!GL not having a strong scumread after his last vote started towntelling?"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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Can you link the game/post where this previous T-T mindmeld occurred?In post 358, Klick wrote:I feel good about bugspray - they have little to work off of, but their early pressure/thoughts on Gamma lined up with what I was thinking at the time closely enough that it felt like a towntell. I remember mindmelding in a similar way with them recently when they were town as well.
I don't really grok "mind melding over the early pressure on Gamma" as enough for a solid TR here"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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VOTE: Flea the Magician
I think if goats is town, Flea is the most likely scum setting up to jump on the freebie ML wagon and trying to do just enough to make sure it looks Good and Justified"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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hey @MODI think you missed my vote for Flea in 367, I'm not voting goats anymore"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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why Datisi? and his question about why not move your vote to somebody else here is a good one tooIn post 369, bugspray wrote:i sus datisi, implo, and flea"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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I skimmed through and am caught up but it's 2am here so I'm about to fall asleep
I need to reread and rethink about Dwlee, I originally felt like he was genuinely unsure of me but the tentative/fencey way he's since approached it that goats/Infinity are calling out I could imagine being scum unsure how to play around me. but at the same time I also don't see any issues with his actual reads/conclusions for the most part. Dwlee can you walk me through how Pooky went from a SR to a TR for you, I don't think you explained that progression
I'm fine with a MURDERCAT wagon I agree with Pooky that his catchup throwing out a bunch of townreads and no scumreads feels like coasting
VOTE: MURDERCAT
more effort tomorrow but I'll be at a day event so it'll be in the evening"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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to try to explain this better cause I phrased it poorly cause tired, I vibe with what Infinity is pointing out that Dwlee said he townread me but didn't have any followup or questioning towards goats to further sort whether goats' push was town-motivated. I could see that being scum that doesn't want to vote on the wagon and look dirty if it goes through but at the same time isn't necessarily invested in slowing momentum of goats pushing the wagon - that hesitance of 'wanting the wagon to go through without me on it' is what I mean by "play around me"In post 419, GuiltyLion wrote:the tentative/fencey way he's since approached it that goats/Infinity are calling out I could imagine being scum unsure how to play around me"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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^^this is goodpostingIn post 444, implosion wrote:I'm somewhat offput by goats's arc on GL at this point; in particular 351 is extremely out-for-blood in a world where quite a few people (me, datisi, infinity) that were not on goats's scumdar (in fact, this is exactly the list that they used to reinforce their point in 309) were starting to flip on GL. It's a little odd to me that, while they are trying to convince us that GL is still scum, they're not really acknowledging that there is real reason to have divested from GL suspicion. I'm not saying they themselves need to but the "I want to see who's on counterwagons" line is a bit strong. Even if it is like somewhat sardonic based on the 2nd line of the post.
it's tough because there definitely exist some town players who will decide that their Scumread is Right and then aggressively push it to force the issue. I would guess goats plays like this as either alignment to a degree (if they're doing it as scum it's because they think they'd do it as town) - but the longer their scumread on me feels sticky the less I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt. Like I really don't get a sense that they've ever honestly tried to reassess or re-evaluate on me"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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I'm kind of two minds on this, I don't mind naked votes early game as I think you can often get Informative Content from the way people react to them, but with a hindsight townread on implosion it's certainly possible scum!Flea wanted to nudge an early miselim wagon along while skating by needing to give reasoning or commit to a degree of confidence. The bigger issue standing out to me is that Flea unvoted later and hasn't voted elsewhere since, even in spite of vocalizing a scumread on me while my wagon had momentum.In post 484, MURDERCAT wrote:Flea votes implosion in 59 as faer’s first post of the game, which does strike me as a bit odd.
I don't like that you're dancing around a definitive read on Flea with your posts here, you had fae as town in 383 for 320, what's your past experience with Flea and how confident are you that fae doesn't post that as scum?"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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I do vibe with this and it makes feel good about Pooky, I definitely didn't have implosion as town by 156 and I don't think it's reasonable to say we should haveIn post 511, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:
like is nobody going to call this out?In post 505, MURDERCAT wrote:Because by that point I had already determined both implo and datisi were town and you should have too
Murdercat is scumreading me for not having implo at "town" when I dropped my readslist at 156
instead of townreading him off his interaction with me at 174 approximately 30 minutes later.
DOES THAT SOUND LIKE A REAL READ TO ANYONE HERE?!?!?!?
CAN ANYONE WITH A STRAIGHT FACE TELL ME THAT MURDERCAT!TOWN HAS THAT ACTUAL THOUGHT IN HIS HEAD???
I could understand it with Datisi but definitely not with implo, and doubly so because it was Pooky that baited implo between those posts into a readable reaction to begin with
that reminds me - Pooky did you ever post Flea games? I have no experience with Flea and I'm curious about these meta reads being tossed around because I'm finding Flea consistently scummy but I have no sense of faer normal playstyle"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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I wish I could swap implosion with Not_Mafia in my two D1 locktowns lol, 520 and 524 some definite catch-up mindmeld"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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I think Dwlee is still overall pretty probtown in spite of the looney tunes logic of 513 though, he's passing the vibe check"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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I think overall MC's spur of activity doesn't move the needle for me, I don't think it's outside of a good player's scumrange, and he's noticeably avoidant giving strong reads on some of the more peripheral but important slots like Flea and bugspray whereas his two more definitive scumreads (Dwlee/Pooky) feel convenient in that neither is a serious wagon but neither are popular townreads either. I can buy the suspicion on Dwlee but I don't think his reasoning for suspecting Pooky tracks especially given how much of it hedges on effectively "his reads in 156 are bad", and early game reads are often trash for most people, you're forcing content out of no information.
I don't really buy Infinity's suggestion that this is outside of MC's scumrange unless she has a ton of experience to back that up? has he never produced a half decent effort post as scum?"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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I don't see anything super notable in the movement from MC->bugspray I think it's mostly townies getting antsy with a slow wagon as soon as MC put in some effort. goats calling this out in 509/523 feels maybe townish? although I disagree that MC was acting significantly townier
overall I still like a towncore of Datisi, Infinity, Gamma, implosion, Dwlee, and I'll add Pooky there too as of his latest content. I wouldn't complain if bugspray went through, it's just an empty ISO, but I think anyone acting like it's good odds of scum is optimistic and I think if anything their lack of survivalism makes it a worse wagon than MC. Flea/Klick/goats is good odds of at least one scum in it I feel, and N_M disappearing makes me want to put him in that tier too
Infinity - I appreciate the links to those games, I'm about to call it a night but I think I should have a slower work day tomorrow and I'll try to read through them. I feel I've been in catchup mode too much since Friday, I'll make an effort to be more consistently around for Real Time Interactions tomorrow"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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